Matias Tactile Pro - Grey Alps

[whininggit]

I've been looking for a Matias Tactile Pro for some time, and won a TP 1.0 on eBay a few weeks ago. When it arrived, it wasn't in as good a condition as I had hoped - the right hand side of it is slightly yellowed whereas the left is still white, as if it's been sat near a window but partially in the shade. Shame, I would rather have it uniformly yellowed, but hey ho.

Other observations:
- Num Lock and Caps Lock have an LED built into them, and are non-clicky and linear, all other switches are clicky and tactile.
- Lettering appears to suffer from wear very badly. unless this particular board has seen a lot of usage.
- Very loud - much louder than my G80-3000 with Cherry MX blues.
- Build quality of the case is not particularly good. It snaps together, and then two screws hold it together, which is a good job because the plastic clips don't fit that well.

The main thing I'm wondering about is the switches, and who makes them. I popped off the Eject key at the top right of the keyboard, and it has a grey stem switch with the Alps logo. I didn't want to pop off any of the main alpha keys to see whether they're also grey because I always worry about the robustness of Alps type caps. They're all clicky and tactile.

Are these genuine Alps, Strongman or what?

Looking at the Matias web site, the TP 3.0 should be a better product, with my criticisms resolved (lettering, build quality). I know that Alps aren't for me, but this is not a criticism of the keyboard. I like clicky switches (or in the very least tactility), but Alps go too far - they're just too damn loud. Furthermore, the Alps switches feel less, how can I put it, "refined" than Cherry MX. I have no idea what gives me that impression, but it's just a feeling I get when using them.

[itlnstln]

Are you sure about that Clicky part?
 
This is what Chloe said in the ALPS wiki.
 
 
 
Can't really tell unless you pop the key off the ALPHA area.

The Matias TP has Stongmans which are grey and clicky. Check it. In the main review, cmr talks about the clickiness.
 
This is one reason why we use "Real" and "Fake."

[whininggit]

They're definitely clicky. I pressed super-slow to ensure that there's no keycap rattle or bottom/top out noise (which pretty much masks the click) and they do click. Not as loud a click as my "ALPSulator" switches though.

Unlike cmr's TP 2.0, the switch in my TP 1.0 says Alps on it.

[itlnstln]

Here is another review (with many more, and better pics) from Welly on the same 'board.

[whininggit]

Interesting.

So it looks like the original TP 1.0 (like mine) uses Alps-made Alps switches, along with earlier TP 2.0 until they ran out, after which point they switched to different switches?

Alps are too confusing!

[ch_123]

No, I'm pretty sure they used fake Strongmans, whereas your Alpsulator uses fake XMs.

[itlnstln]

Strongmans are just another copycat brand/company like XM and Fukka (Fukka might be debatable, though) - "Fake.". Strongman also OEM's 'boards like the Phaethon and others (probably the TP, as well).
 
There is a reason why the "Real" and "Fake" nomenclature came to be, and your hero, Chloe, even described them as such.
 
EDIT:  I forgot how many times the ALPS switch wiki was redone.  Removed the incorrect statement.

[itlnstln]

The Strongman switches are listed in the ALPS switch wiki under the "Simplified ALPS" heading.
 

Grey: tactile (Strong Man SMK-85, switches thought to be manufactured by Strong Man, known as "ALPS-compatible" (Source: DSI))

[whininggit]

Maybe they are Strongman switches. Why the Alps logo though - were Strongman switches made with Alps' old equipment/factory? (i.e. they really are the same switches as they would be if Alps had manufactured them similar to Unicomp vs IBM, rather than a copy/clone made elsewhere)

I didn't know Acer made Alps-type switches too:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45562861@N03/4183271577/in/set-72157622996630428

[itlnstln]

The ALPS mystery continues.......

This.  I've abandoned ALPS and moved on.  It's far too confusing, and I don't really like them all that much anymore, so I try to ignore them.

[leos]

the matias tactile pro 1 uses original alps switches. I make now a foto for you

[leos]

[leos]

yes they are very clicky (and more tactile then an ibm m) and very loud complicated with Gray stems.





btw this Matias TP 1 is unused!!

[ch_123]

If by tactile you mean 'friction' and 'wobble' then sure, yeah...

[itlnstln]

If by tactile you mean 'friction' and 'wobble' then sure, yeah...

I LOLed.

[leos]

If by tactile you mean 'friction' and 'wobble' then sure, yeah...

by tactile i mean the feeling like in the model m if the spring makes a "buckle" and you take/feel the vibration in your fingers, and this feeling is better then in any ibm Keyboard. For the wobble you re right its more the in any M. if you dont wanna have wobble the you take better a TOPRE.

[leos]

Are the Gray Clickies about as stiff as the Model M?  Or better yet, have any weights or Euros?

Piece of trivia for my fellow Americans.  The cheaper Euro coins are magnetic.  I found this astounding and rather disconcerting when my pocket stuck to a strong magnet once.

so i make the 10cent (euro) test . i need 15 x10 cent (61,5 gramm) to go to register/click point. If i take 16 x10 cent (65,6 gramm) the it bottoms out. they feel stiffer to a model m

keys used (esc, h, up arrow)

[microsoft windows]

I like the IBM's feel better than the ALPS since the keys have much smoother action.

[ch_123]

by tactile i mean the feeling like in the model m if the spring makes a "buckle" and you take/feel the vibration in your fingers, and this feeling is better then in any ibm Keyboard. For the wobble you re right its more the in any M. if you dont wanna have wobble the you take better a TOPRE.

How old is your Model M?

[leos]

I like the IBM's feel better than the ALPS since the keys have much smoother action.

 
alps is not alps. the feeling to a aek 1 or 2 is total differed to a matias pro. (not pro 2 or 3 because i dont have it)

[leos]

How old is your Model M?

NIB


i compare a NIB matias TP 1 to a NIB model m and a NIB unicomp customizer


i found a old review here


"Where the Tactile Pro Keyboard really shines, though, is in its feel. The keys are decidedly "clickier" and more mechanical, and they have a slightly longer key travel when you push them. The end result is a much less mushy feel than on the Apple Pro Keyboard, but accompanied by much louder typing noises. When I'm typing fast, the Tactile Pro Keyboard almost clatters, and I can say with assurance that I don't mind one bit. The new feel took a little getting used to, but within a day, it felt quite wonderful."
 


matias tp 1

matias tp 2

[leos]

Plenty of people like White/Blue/(now Grey) clicky ALPS. About the same as the Model F it looks like.

not everyone wanna give lot of $$$ to try differed switches. A cheap way is to buy a model m on ebay. and i bet that lot of people here they thing that a aek/aek 2 has the same feeling like a matias tp 1. This is wrong because the tp has more key travel. It feels more crispy and tactile with all his woobie keys then a model m. But if you need a Tank then the only choice you have is to go for an M or F.

[ch_123]

This is wrong because the tp has more key travel.

Just to clarify - clicky and cream Alps have the same travel by virtue of using the same length of spring inside the same size switch. What happens is that the 'force curve' of the clicky switches is very different to that of the Black/Cream switch - it eases down whereas the latter just collapse soon after you press a key.

[leos]

I agree.  I think most people try Dells and Apples and decide to move on.  It takes work to find the clicky complicated ALPS.  As far as I can tell the Focus Keyboards are the only one that appear on Ebay regularly at low prices.  

And to buy from the Northgate guy appears to require a background check from the Dept. Of Homeland Security.

I took mine tp nib on ebay for 20€. The only one "good" mechanical switches you can find on shops here is the cherry ml switch. On ebay you find easy IBM model Ms and cherry MXs. Not everyone has our passion to spend lot of money and more important lot of Time to search and find through the waste of ****ty keyboards something really good one.

[leos]

Just to clarify - clicky and cream Alps have the same travel by virtue of using the same length of spring inside the same size switch. What happens is that the 'force curve' of the clicky switches is very different to that of the Black/Cream switch - it eases down whereas the latter just collapse soon after you press a key.

the key travel is definitely longer. I take a few fotos after work at home and post it here.

[ak_nala]

A TP 1.0 has been my daily driver on my tower for the past 7 years. Just opened up one of its switches (dang those things are tight) and can report the following:

Matias Tactile Pro 1.0 = Clicky and Tactile Gray Alps w/ Logo = Real Simplified Type 1 (aka Fukka)

Pics to follow.

the key travel is definitely longer. I take a few fotos after work at home and post it here.

Travel feels the same as any other Alps, 4mm. Haven't measured yet, but I think anything else you are feeling is subjective due to dampers and actuation points.

Just to clarify - clicky and cream Alps have the same travel by virtue of using the same length of spring inside the same size switch. What happens is that the 'force curve' of the clicky switches is very different to that of the Black/Cream switch - it eases down whereas the latter just collapse soon after you press a key.

Believe the switch travel is strictly defined by the free space between the bottom of the slider and the nubs on the bottom of the switch case, rather than the length of the spring.

[ak_nala]

Darn those things are tough to get back together properly - very touchy. Had to reassemble the switch three times to get it to click properly (it was more tactile than clicky).

Anyway, just measured the travel and it is a full standard 4mm.

Edit: Ripometer comes out between 12 and 13 Nickles to click and register a keystroke. I'd estimate 62 grams as any jostling at 12 Nickles and it trips.

[itlnstln]

I think there may have been a source-of-switch change between v. 1 and 2.
 
Here is a story on the original TP.  Apparently, it used real ALPS (or what became Fukka).  Later versions, for sure, have Strongmans.

[ak_nala]

Was going by the switch construction rather than the tactile leaf, based on pics in the Alps Wiki's main page. The one-legged actuation prong and n-shaped leaf pattern are quite unmistakable and matches perfectly the pic under Simplified Type 1, including it being copper colored.

That said, the tactile leaf looks just about identical to the one in Welly's TP 2.0 pic, however, the one in the TP 1.0 is silver (and frankly, Welly's pic kind of looks like it could be either copper or silver). If the Fukka tactile leaf (as opposed to switch leaf) is in fact copper colored, then perhaps we've found a difference between the "real" and the "replicas" and should call current "Fukkas" Simplified Type 1b and original Alps versions of this switch Simplified Type 1a?

[ak_nala]

OK, now I'm confused (It wouldn't be Alps, I suppose, if it didn't involve SOME head scratching).

By Alps Wiki I meant the "Default: ALPS Switches" article you've been working on  here. Don't know which marketing BS article you are referencing.

What's listed as Type III there looks nothing like what you are referencing in the above pics. What you are showing looks like the Type I, though no pic of the Tactile/Click leaf is shown there.

[itlnstln]

I'm calling Type I on that one, too.

[ak_nala]

Here are the pics:








Sure looks like what's listed as Type 1 to me.


Sorry for the reflection on the click-leaf, but it was shiny! Can't see it too well here, but IIRC inside of housing was the same as Ripster's pic of a Fukka's except for what look like channel guides in the Fukka for the narrower click leaf.


BTW - On opposite side from the ALPS name is a "5" and an "A".

[itlnstln]

Thanks, ak_nala.  That keycap almost looks pink.

[ak_nala]

Since the switch is the same, but the click leaves are so different, I claim subtype status. I think the switch itself has to take precedence in any consistent taxonomy, that means Simplified Type 1A for the Alps brand big-leaf (taking precedence as it IS labeled an Alps) and Simplified Type 1B for the newer Fukkas.

But as you say, Sandy will probably turn all this on its head shortly.

[itlnstln]

ALPS is such a clusterf*ck.

[whininggit]

So these are Type I simplified, but the original ones, from when Alps were still running the factory?

And then Fukka switches being put in keyboards now are descendants of these grey-stem Alps-branded switches? Effectively the same switch, just minor differences (could these be designed for different tactility or clickyness - they have grey stems rather than white).

[ak_nala]

Thanks, ak_nala.  That keycap almost looks pink.

The joys of mixed lighting - it's actually still the nice shade of off-white as it was new. First pic of the whole board is pretty accurate.

[ak_nala]

Just to add to the Alpsness of it all - noticed that the switch I worked on is now noticeably smoother than the others.

Apparently just the oil from my fingers was enough to smooth things out a bit (and my hands weren't that oily to begin with). A lot of the frictiony feel so common with Alps (even the well used ones in my Alpha section) was eliminated.

[ch_123]

Anyway, now I gotta edit the wiki again to erase the Clicky Gray Complicated version.  Chloe was right again.

Grey Complicated = AEK Caps Lock switch.

[itlnstln]

After hanging around here for awhile.  You really start to discover many of the design flaws of ALPS and why they seem to degrade over time moreso than other switches.  It's a shame, in a way, as there really aren't a whole lot of choices for mechanical keyswitches these days.

[ak_nala]

You know, if the Fukka click leaves really are copper, it may not bode well for their long-term clickiness. Seems like copper, being more malleable, would loose it's spring more quickly than the spring-steel of the original complicateds.

[ak_nala]

After hanging around here for awhile.  You really start to discover many of the design flaws of ALPS and why they seem to degrade over time moreso than other switches.  It's a shame, in a way, as there really aren't a whole lot of choices for mechanical keyswitches these days.

Yeah, I think there are two main areas where they fall short.

First is that there is a whole lot of bearing surface between the slider and the housing, with a straight shot to most of that surface from the clearances in the stem hole (and relief cuts in some models) in the upper housing. So any dust or debris results in adding to the frictiony feel (or worse, grittiness) that is already there due to lack of lubrication (either applied or inherent in the type of plastics used).

Second is that the switch contacts aren't gold plated (and/or weren't designed to wipe properly when actuated in order to be self-cleaning). If they were, I don't think there would be anywhere near the problem with bouncing and failure to register that seems to plague them when they get old.

Both of these problems could be engineered out of current Alps clones, but it would take more effort than the clone-makers seem to be willing to put forward.

EDIT: OK, yeah, there's a third flaw - the top loading of the keys (making them seem stiffer than they are) with the resulting sudden drop of resistance making it hard to not bottom-out  (worse on some than others, eg. Blacks). This might be solved by a variable-rate spring. Mind you, for some this might be considered a feature rather than a flaw - if the user tends to rest his or her fingers on the keys, they would be less likely to trigger them accidentally, in which case dampening the sliders, ala the AEK II, might be more desirable.

EDIT 2: Fine, then there's the keycap problem - way too tight to get on and off -  and the attachment is too thin leading to the very real threat of breakage - and general wobbliness of the stem/slider. Or is that three more problems? I give up.

[itlnstln]

The two biggest flaws, IMO, with ALPS: the slider actually slides through the opening in the case, and the slider is relatively thin exacerbating any wobbling issues there might be.  In comparison to the Cherry, the width of the slider stops at the top of the switch case.  This reduces the amount of surface area that could potentially rub against the edge of the case.  The Cherry stem is also a little wider than the ALPS, so there is less wobble.  There are other design differences that contribute to the feel and action of the switches, but I think these are the most important (and why I think Cherry switches are superior to ALPS in any variety.