Post by: Kavik on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:18:36
I decided to switch from a Maxkey SA set to a GMK set. I noticed twelve keycaps with cracked stems and a few others with white stress marks on them when I removed the SA set.
Upon removing the GMK set, I saw none of the keycaps were cracked, but almost all of them had white stress marks on the stems in the horizontal section of the cross. They were also harder to pull off of BOX switches than from Cherry or Zealio switches.
I think there are possibly three things at play:
1. BOX switches' cross stems are too thick and stress or crack normal sized keycap stems. I found one other recent mention of this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8ph0zw/kailh_box_navy_switches_damaging_keycaps/).
2. Despite having a better reputation, wire keycap pullers put a little bit of twisting motion on a keycap as it's lifted.
3. Maxkey keycaps may be slightly more fragile than other brands. I have found at least one other mention of this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/8dk5t3/maxkeys_ob_cracked_stems/)
Is anyone else noticing this?
P.S. I wasn't sure if this belongs in Keyboards or Keycaps forum.
Post by: lemur on Sun, 24 June 2018, 21:33:22
I don't use a wire keycap puller, I use one of the type that comes with the ibm 'pingmaster' boards.. they seem pretty gentle on the keys...
(https://i.imgur.com/QvZSpPGm.jpg)
edit: the maxkeys set I have is the 'White on Black' set that everyone seems to have.. made before the legends were updated.. so it has BACK SPACE..
Post by: Zuology on Tue, 26 June 2018, 18:28:37
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 28 June 2018, 12:08:43
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 28 June 2018, 16:40:25
Post by: Sup on Thu, 28 June 2018, 18:08:23
Post by: portbaron on Thu, 28 June 2018, 18:25:00
Post by: monkt on Fri, 29 June 2018, 11:21:37
BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple check your orientation
Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.
What is it about the box switches that might cause this? The box structure itself shouldn't really have anything to do with it since that isn't the part that connects with the keycap, I think. So is it just that the stems on these switches are either inconsistent, or else uniformly just a little bit bigger in some respect? If uniform, it would seem to be a design issue. If inconsistent, then a QC issue. It would be really useful to know which is the case, and whether or not it affects all box variants. And what about other Kailh, non-box switches?
I've been wanting to branch out and try some of these, but given the price of keycap sets I'm not sure I'm comfortable taking the chance. Not until there's more evidence one way or another.
Post by: portbaron on Fri, 29 June 2018, 16:12:22
Box switches are great, don't let this discourage you unless you have a habit of moving the same keyset around to different boards every month for some reason (why do this?). This will wear out keys on any stem. Box switches stems are slightly thicker I think, sort of like how MX clears are often tighter to get keycaps on.BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple check your orientation
Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.
What is it about the box switches that might cause this? The box structure itself shouldn't really have anything to do with it since that isn't the part that connects with the keycap, I think. So is it just that the stems on these switches are either inconsistent, or else uniformly just a little bit bigger in some respect? If uniform, it would seem to be a design issue. If inconsistent, then a QC issue. It would be really useful to know which is the case, and whether or not it affects all box variants. And what about other Kailh, non-box switches?
I've been wanting to branch out and try some of these, but given the price of keycap sets I'm not sure I'm comfortable taking the chance. Not until there's more evidence one way or another.
The only 2 keycaps I've had break were on normal cherry mx switches; the stem on a ducky Tab key that I had moved around about 5 times, and a cheap chinese xda return key I moved about 4 times. I've never had any artisans.
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 30 June 2018, 10:01:43
Post by: suddenZenith on Tue, 03 July 2018, 00:35:53
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 24 July 2018, 13:26:55
I've had my hyperfuse V1 GMK set on box blacks for almost a year now. I went to put them on a different board and HOLY CRAP... they FALL OFF the switches when I turn the board upside down. This happens on kailh non-box switches as well as gateron and cherry. booo
There is definitely something going on.
TL:DR If you put GMK caps on box switches, better be prepared to keep them there
A little video for you. This is sad and hilarious at the same time I guess:
Post by: portbaron on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:42:18
Post by: portbaron on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:43:03
Post by: Captain Shwah on Tue, 24 July 2018, 20:33:46
All of the cracks are on the east and west sides of the stems, not north or south. I can't take a closeup shot but to my eyes it seems that the lateral cross is a bit thicker on the boxes than on the clears I have sitting next to me.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 24 July 2018, 20:39:01
Post by: Kevadu on Tue, 24 July 2018, 21:41:35
Post by: Overchecken8 on Tue, 24 July 2018, 22:05:11
so get this...I put a couple artisans on my little macropad with box jades and noticed it was a REALLY tight fit. Like I thought the stem was going to break with how tight it was. Immediately took them off and put them on another with zealios and the fit was fine.
I've had my hyperfuse V1 GMK set on box blacks for almost a year now. I went to put them on a different board and HOLY CRAP... they FALL OFF the switches when I turn the board upside down. This happens on kailh non-box switches as well as gateron and cherry. booo
There is definitely something going on.
TL:DR If you put GMK caps on box switches, better be prepared to keep them there
A little video for you. This is sad and hilarious at the same time I guess:
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 24 July 2018, 22:43:54
I also like a lot of the new box switches. Besides the box black build I have 80-100 of each:
Box brown
Box red
Box white
Box jade
Box navy
Box royal
Hako true
Hako clear
Hako Royal
Hako violet
Er, not wanting to do the math, but I’ve put a lot of money into box switches lately. I had plans to build with most of these. I don’t know what to do now.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 25 July 2018, 00:44:03
Post by: Draic on Wed, 25 July 2018, 02:42:57
Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.
Stop buying box switches. Warn people of the problems with them.
Post by: HotRoderX on Wed, 25 July 2018, 03:21:48
Post by: Poesjuh on Wed, 25 July 2018, 04:55:55
The other was a 60% with gmk honeywell on it that I bought secondhand and I took of twice myself, 20 stems cracked.
Not really sure where I'm gonna go from here. For now I took the sets of and replaced them with PBT keycap sets. Main question for me now is do I desolder and swap switches or not.
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 25 July 2018, 05:26:14
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 25 July 2018, 05:41:44
I'd only be worried if keycaps actually broke while on the board without removing them.
:'(
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 25 July 2018, 05:42:12
Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.
Stop buying box switches. Warn people of the problems with them.
Post by: Poesjuh on Wed, 25 July 2018, 05:49:06
Post by: JoeriW on Wed, 25 July 2018, 06:08:45
Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?
My Godspeed caps appear to be fine, only have been on Box switches since I got them. Changed multiple times. They do have a looser fit on their own so I guess that's why they don't crack.
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 25 July 2018, 06:40:17
Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
Post by: dgneo on Wed, 25 July 2018, 06:48:48
Post by: PoochZag on Wed, 25 July 2018, 08:43:34
Post by: Poesjuh on Wed, 25 July 2018, 08:50:13
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 25 July 2018, 09:18:33
I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.I'm going to test it. I have 4 boards now with box switches (GMK, TaiHao, and SP SA caps) and 2 upcoming builds I'm going to put modded box switches in. I don't swap keycaps once I put them on boards, so check back in a few years to see what happened lol.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 09:33:50
I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm going to say that they would be fine on box switches. I'm going to say they will "work" on non-box but sometimes need a saran wrap mod
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 09:35:26
Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
I think SA from Signature Plastics will be okay. As others have stated, they tend to be a bit looser from the start. The only SA that I personally had cracked was my SA Lime maxkey set.
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 25 July 2018, 09:44:26
Lime had some QC issues all around, at least some batches.Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
I think SA from Signature Plastics will be okay. As others have stated, they tend to be a bit looser from the start. The only SA that I personally had cracked was my SA Lime maxkey set.
Anyway I've got gmk plum on whites and SA hyperfuse on navys. These clicks are too good to not use, caps be damned. Typing on cherry blues makes me cringe now.
Post by: Ophidios on Wed, 25 July 2018, 10:07:23
I had been using DSA Hana on BOX Blacks for months in my Planck. And I've done a _lot_ with that board - removing the caps to play with new caps for a day or two, putting them back on, etc. They're currently sitting on vintage Blacks now, and they're tight as hell. In light of all this I went ahead and inspected the stems, and don't see any cracks on a single one of them.
To contrast that, I have DSA Infinity sitting on vintage Blacks on a 60% board of mine, and they fit fine. When I tried installing them onto vintage Blacks in my Let's Split, some of them are loose or flip off when typing like shown in the earlier video - they've never touched BOX switches.
I'm not saying that there isn't something going on with BOX switches, per se. But I do think that stem/cap variations and fitment will differ even amongst the same types of switches. I think perhaps it's possible that we are unfairly attributing this to BOX switches. Probably should gather more data before jumping to any conclusions or starting an anti-BOX switch movement.
Right now we are working with a small amount of anecdotal evidence. Anyone with a micrometer that could possibly add some evidence?
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 10:24:19
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 11:26:39
At first I thought they were fine. However, upon further inspection, it appears they all cracked.
I must emphasis that the crack is VERY hard to see at times. You can actually feel it better than see it. I used some tweezers to rub around the stem and I could feel the slight, thin crack. You can see it better if you insert blunt/rounded tweezers into the stem and apply a small amount of pressure to open up the crack.
They still fit snugly on my cherry MX switches right now. So, I'm guessing they loosen or crack when you first put them on and then after time and typing, they crack/loosen more.
I'm not using GMK on box anymore.
Post by: Plean on Wed, 25 July 2018, 13:35:06
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/
Post by: Poesjuh on Wed, 25 July 2018, 13:50:16
I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/
Good stuff!!
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 25 July 2018, 16:14:43
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 26 July 2018, 05:48:52
So basically the Y-axis is a no issue
Comparing my new Box Naxy's from YMDK to an existing Cherry MX Blue/Gray, the measurements seem 1.26-1.27 to 1.33-1.34, so there's that additional 0.07mm there
Still, testing actual GMK Dolch keycaps, putting them on, pulling them by hand, I don't notice a major issue, tho the virgin F5 I've been testing became very loose now, however it still grips both cherry/gateron/kailh - I wonder if we lube the switches with a thin lube before putting them on, it would be helpful - having bought just one second hand keyboard and keycap-set before, I know that treatment differs from person to person a lot, that was a shocking experience, and being a gentle costar guy, I hope these switches will treat me good
I really can't believe GMK's cracked too, some of my tests were very extreme in the past, none of mine gave up
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 26 July 2018, 09:30:58
After my Reddit answer, managed to fix my caliper and to my extreme luck, there was a pack of best before 2010 LR44's lying around nearby
So basically the Y-axis is a no issue
Comparing my new Box Naxy's from YMDK to an existing Cherry MX Blue/Gray, the measurements seem 1.26-1.27 to 1.33-1.34, so there's that additional 0.07mm there
Still, testing actual GMK Dolch keycaps, putting them on, pulling them by hand, I don't notice a major issue, tho the virgin F5 I've been testing became very loose now, however it still grips both cherry/gateron/kailh - I wonder if we lube the switches with a thin lube before putting them on, it would be helpful - having bought just one second hand keyboard and keycap-set before, I know that treatment differs from person to person a lot, that was a shocking experience, and being a gentle costar guy, I hope these switches will treat me good
I really can't believe GMK's cracked too, some of my tests were very extreme in the past, none of mine gave up
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there
No calipers to measure with, but it's happened to me with box blacks from a year ago, as well as box red and box brown that I ordered last week.
The ones that cracked yesterday on the reds and browns still fit fine on normal mx stems even though I heard them crack and could see it.
I'm guessing it takes time after the first crack for them to become loose. Perhaps the crack gets worse with additional mounting or typing
These are 3 sets of GMK caps. No issues with ePBT that I can tell.
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 26 July 2018, 10:27:05
Post by: rainb1ood on Thu, 26 July 2018, 10:53:26
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 26 July 2018, 11:00:00
Like maybe they get put on regular mx first then used some and then get out on boxe switches later? Does that make a difference?
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 26 July 2018, 11:01:29
I hoped, maybe GMK relaxed things a bit lately, but pixelpusher's V1 Hyperfuse had cracks too
Post by: rainb1ood on Thu, 26 July 2018, 11:01:55
Here's another thought does it matter if the caps have been used before?
Like maybe they get put on regular mx first then used some and then get out on boxe switches later? Does that make a difference?
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
the GMK that cracked on mine was from Ivan's CMYK mods GB that I have used on several cherry MX switches, but I have no way of knowing if this crack happened after box switches.
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 26 July 2018, 11:47:12
I also really like the box switches. In fact, I have 10 bags, over 1000 switches of most box varieties sitting right beside me. I've used and liked almost all of them on hotswap boards. I've just been waiting and planning out builds for them. But for now it's off to r/mm
Post by: Hyde on Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:08:22
I also replaced my Box Red with Gateron Yellow so I'm future proofed now lol.
But yes they do crack stems.
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:47:52
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 26 July 2018, 12:49:58
They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?
You could just get the non-box dark yellow
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-speed-heavy-switches?variant=3747975200808
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 26 July 2018, 13:00:02
Man they make a lot of switches
Post by: portbaron on Thu, 26 July 2018, 15:39:00
Those do have reduced travel compared to box yellows though. Maybe these Pro heavy Berrys are more like them:They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?
You could just get the non-box dark yellow
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-speed-heavy-switches?variant=3747975200808
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-pro-heavys
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 26 July 2018, 20:08:15
Disappointing news, as I had Kailh BOX Violets waiting for a build and also an order for Novelias.
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 27 July 2018, 01:09:53
What's more shocking to me is that these switches have special springs, I hoped/assumed it would be standard springs, but in hindsight, slimmer springs make sense, I wish they produce heavier springs for them too, my dream of putting cherry mx gray springs in these were torn
Also the springs are non-lubed, they ping, so they have to be lubed, so maybe in the new batch, they can factory lube them
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 27 July 2018, 01:23:54
#1: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/10pcs-Assorted-2mm-dia-100mm-length-mini-diamond-coated-needle-file-set-with-red-PVC-dipped/2199053_32760819385.html
#2: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/5pcs-Mini-2mm-100mm-Diamond-Needle-File-Set-Diamond-Grinding-Craft-Tool-For-Ceramic-Tile-Glass/3872027_32866512721.html
#3: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/10Pcs-Titanium-Diamond-Coating-Needle-Flat-File-Set-Metal-Working-Craft-Tool-High-Quality/1305558_32844613606.html
Post by: redleaf on Fri, 27 July 2018, 01:53:48
Post by: audax989 on Fri, 27 July 2018, 03:22:27
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
Post by: HendyZone on Fri, 27 July 2018, 03:44:16
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there
I agreed about this, because i am not quite sure why this happened when talk with Kailh sales.
Kailh already doing the internal investigation about this, maybe they will post some official statement after all the data collected.
Today, Kailh send this internal measurement of their switches, in case anyone want to see :
(https://i.imgur.com/80b17Wq.png)
Post by: otanishock on Fri, 27 July 2018, 04:49:21
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 27 July 2018, 04:55:01
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...
Massdrop finds a way to deliver the most defunct version of everything, got some MX Blues from them in the early days, you wouldn't believe how defective they are, 99.99% factory rejects
So if people complain about 1.33mm, expect 1.5mm width switches that will rip your stems from inside out :)
Post by: otanishock on Fri, 27 July 2018, 05:29:50
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...
Massdrop finds a way to deliver the most defunct version of everything, got some MX Blues from them in the early days, you wouldn't believe how defective they are, 99.99% factory rejects
So if people complain about 1.33mm, expect 1.5mm width switches that will rip your stems from inside out :)
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Post by: Bella_Hwang on Fri, 27 July 2018, 06:10:04
We offer more better products for your guys to try and we also pay attention to the questions that you guys pointed out.
Our company already set about doing internal inspection,we'll give a offical statement after all the data collected;
Thanks!
Post by: mounds on Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:01:57
Otherwise, the option is to test each and every switch out for tolerance right? I've done QA work before, and had to check on QA work before - sometimes QA folks see through rose-colored glasses on glaring issues, while others do excellent work.
Hard to say the whole lot is immediately bad but still begs the question as to why the anecdotal evidence is so strong against Kailh?
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:13:59
Post by: manofinterests on Fri, 27 July 2018, 11:46:54
I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.
You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests
I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.
Post by: HotRoderX on Fri, 27 July 2018, 12:22:54
Thinking behind this is the following.
Seems to be happening only with Maxkey's ((Which seem to have QC issues left and right)) and GMK the defecto standard for quality.
But its just strange that this issue doesn't seem to appear with any other keysets we know of. Also it doesn't happen with all GMK keysets. I mean has anyone tested JTK? I know people said enjoy was fine. I am wondering if GMK changed/switched out there mods. Tightened tolerances and doing so didn't fully take into account ABS shrink that occurs. I would love to see someone compare the openings of a cracked GMK to a non cracked GMK and see if perhaps the issue is keycaps and not switches.
Hope my post makes since. I know what trying to say but not always the best at taking words and putting them down.
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 27 July 2018, 12:28:13
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 27 July 2018, 14:57:51
I really hope one of the crackers can check measure of their stems and compare with our official box switch stem size.
We offer more better products for your guys to try and we also pay attention to the questions that you guys pointed out.
I think an important distinction is that the specs themselves appear too big, so, even if switches are within tolerance according to the spec sheet, they are still bigger than normal MX switches (at least from what I've seen in others' measurements), which appear to be < 1.30 mm on the X-axis.
I agree with Kavik, Kailh provided their measurings like everything's alright, they produced them to spec, but obviously, the spec itself is whacked, no reason to deviate from the lower Cherry MX measurements
Post by: donutcat on Fri, 27 July 2018, 15:34:19
Hmm has anyone looked at this from another point of view? I am just trying to cover all angles. What if the issue isn't the box switches but instead keycap's are out of tolerances.
Thinking behind this is the following.
Seems to be happening only with Maxkey's ((Which seem to have QC issues left and right)) and GMK the defecto standard for quality.
But its just strange that this issue doesn't seem to appear with any other keysets we know of. Also it doesn't happen with all GMK keysets. I mean has anyone tested JTK? I know people said enjoy was fine. I am wondering if GMK changed/switched out there mods. Tightened tolerances and doing so didn't fully take into account ABS shrink that occurs. I would love to see someone compare the openings of a cracked GMK to a non cracked GMK and see if perhaps the issue is keycaps and not switches.
Hope my post makes since. I know what trying to say but not always the best at taking words and putting them down.
I've got this happening with Nuke Data, and other people have shown their OG caps as well as I think some ePBT and some Taihao caps, so it's not just GMK. Another thing to consider is that Kailh's spec itself is different from Cherry's spec, which it really shouldn't be. If your goal is to make switches that will work with caps that are designed to work with Cherry switches, your own spec should be similar to Cherry spec, otherwise it makes sense that there would be tolerance issues. GMK makes sense having the highest incidence rate as it's no surprise that original Cherry cap molds would be made to fit Cherry switches and would be more sensitive to the difference than caps that weren't designed as close to OG Cherry spec.
Post by: LevelSteam on Fri, 27 July 2018, 15:46:39
I just built a board with GMK Laser on Box Navy switches for that retro clicky action, and in addition to the headache of having to desolder and resolder a few of the switches that had that stem twist issue where the keycap would sit cockeyed, I pulled a few caps at random to find that they all had those stress marks (although no cracks, yet) on them.
Even if you don't plan on moving your caps around, it's not uncommon to spend quite a bit on something nice like a GMK set, so to have my $100+ purchase damaged by the board I put it on doesn't sit well with me at all, especially since there's literally no way to know until it's too late and the damage is done.
Post by: mounds on Fri, 27 July 2018, 16:58:02
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
Post by: LevelSteam on Fri, 27 July 2018, 17:01:56
:( :( :( :( :(
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
Yeah, that really stings to be honest. I also happened to be chatting with an erickong on Massdrop about it that took these measurements, the black switches are box blacks, reds are gateron:
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 27 July 2018, 17:13:14
:( :( :( :( :(
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
Yeah, that really stings to be honest. I also happened to be chatting with an erickong on Massdrop about it that took these measurements, the black switches are box blacks, reds are gateron:
DO you have measurements for the other direction. It's the West-East stems that seem to be the thickest
Post by: LevelSteam on Fri, 27 July 2018, 18:33:00
Post by: portbaron on Fri, 27 July 2018, 19:10:19
Post by: Skaazi on Fri, 27 July 2018, 22:21:29
Zilent 67g vs Box Jade:
(https://i.imgur.com/Sw7GLOm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oYRBya9.jpg)
Post by: befbef on Sat, 28 July 2018, 00:30:27
Post by: LevelSteam on Sat, 28 July 2018, 00:52:58
Post by: Lansky on Sat, 28 July 2018, 07:17:15
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 28 July 2018, 10:00:27
Could anyone measure Kailh speed stems please? Or do you we have data already?
I've used speed with my nautilus caps already, and taking them off, they look fine. I think as someone said, it's just the box that have a problem.
Post by: crzone on Sat, 28 July 2018, 10:20:26
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 28 July 2018, 11:14:27
Post by: LevelSteam on Sat, 28 July 2018, 11:21:59
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 28 July 2018, 12:20:17
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.
It's worth doing, but I'd think if the tolerances were off in length or width, it just wouldn't fit.
Post by: voight-kampff on Sat, 28 July 2018, 13:31:36
It could also be that the ABS / PBS or other plastic material is not the same, and / or is iconsistent, some more prone to cracking?
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:28:27
What if not the box stems, or the keycap stems measurements are wrong?
It could also be that the ABS / PBS or other plastic material is not the same, and / or is iconsistent, some more prone to cracking?
but why is it happening on box switches only is the question then. Even if they are "in spec" but cracking stems, it seems the design is wrong.
Keep in mind, I've been swapping key sets for years. I have close to 40 boards with all kinds of switches. I've only had this happen from box switches.
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:10:13
(and for how serious we take keysets, I must say that I'm impressed with the restraint and approach being taken by those affected.)
Post by: Poesjuh on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:19:02
Is it all types of box switches, or just some? That's a question also.So far all kinds of boxes. And that restraint, I guess it depends on who you talk to :) Personally I’m a trust person and I lost my trust in box switches with this. I’m desoldering the 2 boards with box blacks in it and already ordered new switches. I do like the switches tho, just not worth the risk to my $150>>> keycap sets :S
(and for how serious we take keysets, I must say that I'm impressed with the restraint and approach being taken by those affected.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: LevelSteam on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:24:58
Granted that's purely anecdotal, but it might not be every type of box switch that's affected.
Post by: a_ak57 on Sun, 29 July 2018, 00:23:43
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.
Too lazy to take pictures but here were my measurements using this caliper (https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B001AQEZ2W) (included a Cherry Clear since those are a notoriously tight fit):
Box Royal X-Axis Length: 3.96mm
Cherry Red X-Axis Length: 3.98mm
Cherry Clear X-Axis Length: 3.97mm
Box Royal Y-Axis Length: 3.93mm
Cherry Red Y-Axis Length: 3.98mm
Cherry Clear Y-Axis Length: 3.94mm
So while this wasn't super scientific since I only did one switch each (took the measurements a few times), it's probably still fair to say that it's just the X-axis width of the Box switches causing the issue.
I actually tried doing width measurements for each of them but found that my numbers differed depending specifically where and at what angle I was measuring along the stem. I ultimately settled on just holding the caliper completely vertical and flush against the opposing axis, running the full length of the stem (had to break off the box of the Royal). So take the actual numbers with a grain of salt, but I think for comparison purposes they're somewhat useful at least:
Box Royal X-Axis Width: 1.32mm
Cherry Red X-Axis Width: 1.25mm
Cherry Clear X-Axis Width: 1.25mm
Box Royal Y-Axis Width: 1.10mm
Cherry Red Y-Axis Width: 1.09mm
Cherry Clear Y-Axis Width: 1.20mm
So again, while not very scientific it looks like the Box's X-axis width is the culprit. But interestingly it seems that the Clear's tight fit is due to the Y-axis width. So I wonder if that means keycaps are designed to have the same amount of space on both the X and Y axes, as then it'd make sense that the Clears are tight but not to a degree that they do damage (since their Y is still less than the X that the caps would be presumably designed to fit).
Edit: Decided to try my hand at measuring the inside of a Cherry cap and while it was incredibly difficult to get anything consistent due to the caliper not really fitting (anywhere between 1.21-1.26mm), looks like both axes are pretty close to the same if not so. So that would explain Cherry Clears.
Post by: LevelSteam on Sun, 29 July 2018, 07:42:50
Post by: Vox_PT on Sun, 29 July 2018, 08:20:03
I wonder how long will Kailh take to make a statement regarding these allegations.
Post by: pvd on Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:36:53
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Post by: audax989 on Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:39:14
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: pvd on Sun, 29 July 2018, 09:42:08
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
I see it now, that sucks. Damn, I've used box switches on so many of my boards... gonna go pull off my laser set and check right now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Sun, 29 July 2018, 13:22:46
I have 100 pcs on order with MD now and I asked support if Kailh is aware of the issue and if they are fixing it.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:07:09
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
I've put many GMK sets on clears. They are a complete pain in the ass to put on and take off. However, my keycaps never had issues with looseness on other stems afterwards. I very carefully (and quite easily) pressed some GMK Miami Nights caps onto one of each, box red and box brown. Both times i heard a snap and looked to find a small crack. Those still fit fine on other stems for now. I'm guessing in time the cracks would open up more and become looser.
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:22:22
Post by: Giorgio on Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:44:06
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Look at the measurements.
Post by: Bella_Hwang on Sun, 29 July 2018, 22:34:35
I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/
Hi,I'm Bella from Kailh,actually when we got the message about the keycap crack,we urge the QA to random inspect the box stem of our stock,our datasheet as the post,haven't thicken to 1.40. could i Know when you get the switches and where you buy it?
Post by: Bella_Hwang on Mon, 30 July 2018, 01:24:16
Hi Bella_Hwang,
I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.
You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests
I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.
Hi,thanks for your kindly message,we'll notice the issue
Post by: otanishock on Mon, 30 July 2018, 01:42:57
If it turns out to be some kinds of QA issues where you release a massive amount of faulty switches (abnormal stem size) into the market, would you perform a recall on those from your supplier (like NovelKeys)?Hi Bella_Hwang,
I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.
You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests
I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.
Hi,thanks for your kindly message,we'll notice the issue
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Post by: Poesjuh on Mon, 30 July 2018, 04:59:15
Look at the part where the led would be
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180730/97e571cad03c8ff2d0912405f2b7c1c1.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180730/1fd6da75ca021bfe107dd15a69ee498a.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Mon, 30 July 2018, 06:41:45
I have compiled a list of stem thicknesses of different switches that people has provided to me.
You can take a look at it here if anyone is interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wc59WnMRJs0gVBrOyh2bRQcPl28yL7lim-p-N0l1daQ/edit?usp=sharing
If you have some measurements of stems then send them my way and i will update the list with what you give to me.
I also trimmed the BOX part of a BOX Jade keyswitch to see if the stem size widened at the end, I can say that on my sample size of one that it does not widen or narrow at the end.
(https://i.imgur.com/M0WiXYR.jpg)
Post by: otanishock on Mon, 30 July 2018, 06:49:00
Speaking of measurements!Thank you so much for the list. Now that we are able to compare the stem sizes of box switches to their Cherry counterparts', its no deniable that the stems on box switches are consistently larger than what they should've been.
I have compiled a list of stem thicknesses of different switches that people has provided to me.
You can take a look at it here if anyone is interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wc59WnMRJs0gVBrOyh2bRQcPl28yL7lim-p-N0l1daQ/edit?usp=sharing
If you have some measurements of stems then send them my way and i will update the list with what you give to me.
I also trimmed the BOX part of a BOX Jade keyswitch to see if the stem size widened at the end, I can say that on my sample size of one that it does not widen or narrow at the end.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/M0WiXYR.jpg)
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Mon, 30 July 2018, 07:39:32
Hi,I'm Bella from Kailh,actually when we got the message about the keycap crack...
There is an MD order for Kailh "Heavy" switches that is scheduled to be shipped in September. Will it be fixed? or Will those switches be certified that they will not break key cap stems?
Please be sure that you fix the wider stems. You shall review your specification considering the reported stems broken. The key cap set's cannot be the final go/no-go gages for oversized switch stems.
Post by: LevelSteam on Mon, 30 July 2018, 09:09:31
Post by: mgsickler on Mon, 30 July 2018, 11:41:28
Post by: voight-kampff on Mon, 30 July 2018, 12:25:10
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.
(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 30 July 2018, 13:12:24
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Post by: Kevadu on Mon, 30 July 2018, 13:20:52
I'm also curious why DareU requested a thicker X stem in the first place.
Post by: PoochZag on Mon, 30 July 2018, 13:49:15
Edit: Just saw on the Reddit post that this is uncertain as of now
Post by: ideus on Mon, 30 July 2018, 14:43:56
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
Any upcoming Kailh order should include a cheap metal keycap as reworking tool. Just to be sure it will not brake any expensive keycap set.
Post by: portbaron on Mon, 30 July 2018, 14:53:53
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 30 July 2018, 15:05:07
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
This is brilliant. You would save me a ton of money if it works. I'm wondering if someone could manufacture a metal one specifically to slim down box switches?
Post by: mkarlsson on Mon, 30 July 2018, 17:33:04
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
This is brilliant. You would save me a ton of money if it works. I'm wondering if someone could manufacture a metal one specifically to slim down box switches?
Great idea! Have to get one of those for my jades.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 30 July 2018, 20:10:19
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
This is brilliant. You would save me a ton of money if it works. I'm wondering if someone could manufacture a metal one specifically to slim down box switches?
Please do so. A sort of cutter or grinder in the shape of a key cap stem may do wonders as a rework tooling.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 31 July 2018, 03:08:35
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Tue, 31 July 2018, 04:45:11
Post by: mkarlsson on Tue, 31 July 2018, 13:00:47
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Hi Giorgio,
I am not an engineer and may be totally wrong but...wouldn't it be safer to go with something like 1.28 mm? this way having error tolerances of +-0.02 you could end up with 1.26 or 1.30. Going for 1.30 could end up with 1.28 or 1.32 which would have the same problem that we currently have. Am I wrong?
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 31 July 2018, 14:38:07
Response from kailh if someone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/93c8js/response_for_kailh_box_switches_crack_and_stress/
LOL. English.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 31 July 2018, 14:39:09
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Hi Giorgio,
I am not an engineer and may be totally wrong but...wouldn't it be safer to go with something like 1.28 mm? this way having error tolerances of +-0.02 you could end up with 1.26 or 1.30. Going for 1.30 could end up with 1.28 or 1.32 which would have the same problem that we currently have. Am I wrong?
Sorry for not quoting correctly. It wasn't written by me.
Post by: mkarlsson on Tue, 31 July 2018, 14:47:38
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Hi Giorgio,
I am not an engineer and may be totally wrong but...wouldn't it be safer to go with something like 1.28 mm? this way having error tolerances of +-0.02 you could end up with 1.26 or 1.30. Going for 1.30 could end up with 1.28 or 1.32 which would have the same problem that we currently have. Am I wrong?
Sorry for not quoting correctly. It wasn't written by me.
Oh sorry... to mgsickler then
Post by: ptiede on Tue, 31 July 2018, 17:22:47
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 31 July 2018, 17:25:58
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
If the were true it may happen with other switches and not only with Kailh's.
Post by: ptiede on Tue, 31 July 2018, 17:30:56
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
If the were true it may happen with other switches and not only with Kailh's.
Maybe, but not necessarily. 1.34 may be the limit where the GMK tolerances start to go haywire. The thing is nobody knows what gmk's tolerances are since they haven't told anyone yet, and that information isn't readily available. But at the end of the day, this whole thing is a mess and there are probably many factors that are going into the stems cracking.
Post by: mkarlsson on Tue, 31 July 2018, 17:35:24
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
If the were true it may happen with other switches and not only with Kailh's.
Maybe, but not necessarily. 1.34 may be the limit where the GMK tolerances start to go haywire. The thing is nobody knows what gmk's tolerances are since they haven't told anyone yet, and that information isn't readily available. But at the end of the day, this whole thing is a mess and there are probably many factors that are going into the stems cracking.
I still think is risky going to the limit at 1.32. I was just suggesting why not going to a safer size closer to standard cherry switches.
Post by: ptiede on Tue, 31 July 2018, 17:49:14
Post by: ideus on Tue, 31 July 2018, 19:12:47
Post by: ptiede on Tue, 31 July 2018, 20:00:07
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 31 July 2018, 21:43:13
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/response-for-kailh-box-switches-crack-and-stress-keycap-stems-t19539.html
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Wed, 01 August 2018, 01:51:19
I have also heard that cheap keycaps should be having issues. (I have destroyed some from a old AJAZZ keyboard by putting the keycaps on BOX Jade switches.)
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 01 August 2018, 01:53:57
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Yeah. GMK never had a problem in 30 years, and suddenly kailh appears and teaches us how to do keycaps. And switches. After making those switches bigger.
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Wed, 01 August 2018, 02:03:49
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Yeah. GMK never had a problem in 30 years, and suddenly kailh appears and teaches us how to do keycaps. And switches. After making those switches bigger.
Its wonderful how they change stuff, others stuff break, and they start accusing others of not having their tolerances in check. Fun times to have just put a board together with BOX Jade's...
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 01 August 2018, 02:25:41
I think their point is none of kailhs non-box switches have cracked stems. So they are just making box stems have the same average thickness at the non box ones so it really isn't risky. Actually the box ones will now have tighter tolerances than non-box. That is, speeds are 1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02
Yeah, sure. 0.01mm of difference, that's 10 microns. No thanks. I'll box them and pack them.
Just think that with a temperature difference of 50 degrees celsius (like going from summer to winter), a length of 1.3mm of ABS becomes 0.00702mm larger, supposing that they're using the highest quality of abs available.
So the thermal expansion is equal to the new tolerances set by kailh (0.01mm vs 0.007mm which is a difference smaller than 40%), thus making the new tolerance absolutely insignificant and useless.
You leave your keyboard by the window in summer or winter? Boom, keycaps explode. This is aggravated by the fact that you have to take into account the fact that keycaps become smaller and bigger faster than the stem, and that have a bigger surface.
1.3mm * 50 degrees celsius * 108 Linear Temperature Expansion Coefficient /1000000= 0.00702mm
1.3*50*108/1000000
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 01 August 2018, 03:43:51
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Wed, 01 August 2018, 03:46:15
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Why not just remove the box part with a razor blade?
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 01 August 2018, 03:52:01
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Why not just remove the box part with a razor blade?
I assume they are not designed to work that way, haven't tested, let me know if you make it work (It needs to be wobble-free etc.)
Post by: MehAdviceGuy on Wed, 01 August 2018, 07:36:45
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Why not just remove the box part with a razor blade?
I assume they are not designed to work that way, haven't tested, let me know if you make it work (It needs to be wobble-free etc.)
I'll try my circumcised BOX jade tonight and give you a update on how much it wobbles. But again, that is a sample size of one.
Post by: ptiede on Wed, 01 August 2018, 08:28:21
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Yeah. GMK never had a problem in 30 years, and suddenly kailh appears and teaches us how to do keycaps. And switches. After making those switches bigger.
Its wonderful how they change stuff, others stuff break, and they start accusing others of not having their tolerances in check. Fun times to have just put a board together with BOX Jade's...
Ok so I am not affiliated with kailh or have anything do with them. So don;t put my words in their mouth.
I think their point is none of kailhs non-box switches have cracked stems. So they are just making box stems have the same average thickness at the non box ones so it really isn't risky. Actually the box ones will now have tighter tolerances than non-box. That is, speeds are 1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02
Yeah, sure. 0.01mm of difference, that's 10 microns. No thanks. I'll box them and pack them.
Just think that with a temperature difference of 50 degrees celsius (like going from summer to winter), a length of 1.3mm of ABS becomes 0.00702mm larger, supposing that they're using the highest quality of abs available.
So the thermal expansion is equal to the new tolerances set by kailh (0.01mm vs 0.007mm which is a difference smaller than 40%), thus making the new tolerance absolutely insignificant and useless.
You leave your keyboard by the window in summer or winter? Boom, keycaps explode. This is aggravated by the fact that you have to take into account the fact that keycaps become smaller and bigger faster than the stem, and that have a bigger surface.
1.3mm * 50 degrees celsius * 108 Linear Temperature Expansion Coefficient /1000000= 0.00702mm
1.3*50*108/1000000
Cool you calculated a linear thermal expansion coefficient and assumed it applies to a range of 50 degrees. But also your calculation doesn't even apply like you said it did. So you have a 50 degree spread. That means you want the temperature in your house to be fifty degrees warmer than in Kailh's factory when they do their measurement. So let's assume that Kaihua's factory is at 15 degrees Celcius (way lower than the average ambient temperature but ok) then your house must be 65 degrees Celcius...
I am NOT saying Kailh isn't at fault here, of course, they are, I can see with my own two eyes that stems are cracking. The point I was trying to make was that not every stem is cracking, so some tolerances are too loose or there is a compounding issue here. Like some of GMK's caps are a little smaller than normal and combined with the Kailh switches that are on the larger size of the tolerances can lead to cracking. Materials science isn't easy. Also, there is a massive selection bias in this reporting. People are only going to report if their caps cracked (as they should it is still way too common),
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 01 August 2018, 10:28:29
It's an isotropic material so any other coefficient is a combination of it.
And about the 50 degrees. That's obviously a simplification, but it's no unreal at all. Considering that they measure their mold when it's cold. And that when it's hot for the heat of plastic, it becomes bigger. But hey, maybe I found where the problem lies.
But that's just to show that thermal expansion and their new tolerances are in the same order of magnitude. And that's what's important when you talk about superimposing different effects.
Post by: Brammm87 on Fri, 03 August 2018, 03:18:24
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 03 August 2018, 03:30:30
Just took keycaps of 5 boards with BOX switches (black, white, brown and navy), no cracks but all showed signs of stress on the stems... This ****ing blows.
Mother of god. I can't imagine how upset I would be in seeing thousands of my dollars at risk for the gross incompetence of a third party.
Post by: Brammm87 on Fri, 03 August 2018, 03:43:24
Just took keycaps of 5 boards with BOX switches (black, white, brown and navy), no cracks but all showed signs of stress on the stems... This ****ing blows.
Mother of god. I can't imagine how upset I would be in seeing thousands of my dollars at risk for the gross incompetence of a third party.
I'm trying to be reasonable. It looks like all keycaps will be able to go back on boards and I never really intended to resell caps (I'm in this hobby for the collecting aspect). I am however considering trying to get my money back, or at least my switches replaced once the manufacturing process has been updated. I really love my box blacks and whites (not a big fan of the browns and navy's so far).
Post by: ideus on Fri, 03 August 2018, 07:37:47
Marriah D. (Massdrop Community Support)
[size=0pt]Aug 2, 9:42 AM PDT [/size]
[size=0pt]........
Marriah here. Thank you for contacting Massdrop Community Support. I understand your concern with the recent issues with BOZ switches and I will be happy to provide more information.
At this time, Novelkeys and Kailh are aware of this problem and are working on getting the switches corrected. It has been communicated that they are working on getting this issue fixed prior to this drops shipment date in order to ensure that members receive the corrected versions of the BOX switches.
If a delay does occur, we will be sure to communicate this out to members as soon as we are aware.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to reach back out with any other questions or concerns.
Best Wishes,[/size]
[size=0pt]Marriah[/size]
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 03 August 2018, 09:56:36
This information may be of interest here. It is the answer I got from MD's customer service on the BOZ switches's latest drop, that it is scheduled to be shipped in one and a half month or so.
Marriah D. (Massdrop Community Support)
[size=0pt]Aug 2, 9:42 AM PDT [/size]
[size=0pt]........
Marriah here. Thank you for contacting Massdrop Community Support. I understand your concern with the recent issues with BOZ switches and I will be happy to provide more information.
At this time, Novelkeys and Kailh are aware of this problem and are working on getting the switches corrected. It has been communicated that they are working on getting this issue fixed prior to this drops shipment date in order to ensure that members receive the corrected versions of the BOX switches.
If a delay does occur, we will be sure to communicate this out to members as soon as we are aware.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to reach back out with any other questions or concerns.
Best Wishes,[/size]
[size=0pt]Marriah[/size]
Doesn't matter. All the "fixed" stems are still completely wrong if the do what they said.
Post by: ptiede on Fri, 03 August 2018, 10:38:20
This information may be of interest here. It is the answer I got from MD's customer service on the BOZ switches's latest drop, that it is scheduled to be shipped in one and a half month or so.
Marriah D. (Massdrop Community Support)
[size=0pt]Aug 2, 9:42 AM PDT [/size]
[size=0pt]........
Marriah here. Thank you for contacting Massdrop Community Support. I understand your concern with the recent issues with BOZ switches and I will be happy to provide more information.
At this time, Novelkeys and Kailh are aware of this problem and are working on getting the switches corrected. It has been communicated that they are working on getting this issue fixed prior to this drops shipment date in order to ensure that members receive the corrected versions of the BOX switches.
If a delay does occur, we will be sure to communicate this out to members as soon as we are aware.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to reach back out with any other questions or concerns.
Best Wishes,[/size]
[size=0pt]Marriah[/size]
Doesn't matter. All the "fixed" stems are still completely wrong if the do what they said.
You have zero actual evidence to support that claim. In fact, there is evidence against it. Kailh is again just changing the box stems to match their other ones. My Kailh Halo stems don't crack or stretch my caps, so why would the box ones? Like you have an argument why it may work, and hey maybe it is a decent one, but again what matters is what we see in the real world and so far we have no evidence that Kailh's other stems are cracking caps.
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 03 August 2018, 10:49:11
Post by: ptiede on Fri, 03 August 2018, 10:59:46
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.
Post by: dgneo on Fri, 03 August 2018, 11:29:36
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.
1.30 is still too large, that's the issue, not tightening tolerances.
Post by: ptiede on Fri, 03 August 2018, 11:35:05
1.30 matches Kailh's other switches, like the Halo stems and speed switches. I have had no stretching or cracking from those, nor have I heard of any. That's my point. That 1.30 had no evidence for having issues.They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.
1.30 is still too large, that's the issue, not tightening tolerances.
Post by: mkarlsson on Fri, 03 August 2018, 12:28:05
Post by: ideus on Fri, 03 August 2018, 13:42:03
Post by: Glod on Fri, 03 August 2018, 16:06:48
Ive been using Box Browns and Hako Trues for quite some time now, exclusively, I switch out my caps more than a normal keyboard hobbyist, use almost exclusively EnjoyPBT and GMK caps, and haven't had any issues, i did notice the GMK caps what were on the BOX seemed a little loose on the Gateron i switched them to; but i thought nothing of it.
I have also been lucky enough not to have a single BOX switch fail ever.
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 03 August 2018, 17:06:34
Most comments have at least a legit reasoning. What is it closer to be truth is that Kaihl cross has been designed to be larger than most other MX switches. It is not known if the "fix" will avoid interference with keycap stems. I think I can give them the benefit of the doubth and let my order to be fulfilled and see by my self it KBS work well, or some rework is still needed.
They won't fix anything. They never said that they would match the cherry size and tolerance, so they're just taking time and disappointing customers.
And yes. LOL. In a couple of weeks I'll put my 150 USD cherry set on a 0.2 USD switch. Sure.
Post by: monkt on Fri, 03 August 2018, 18:55:04
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
Post by: ideus on Fri, 03 August 2018, 18:57:25
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
Post by: Starius on Sat, 04 August 2018, 09:58:44
So, I only just sorta became aware of this issue, but like many of you I have several bags of box switches on standby - just waiting to be put into boards.
Of course, after reading all this I am nervous about doing so.
Do you think that replacement stems will be made available for existing stock out in the wild? I wouldn't look forward to opening up hundreds or even thousands of switches to swap out stems, but I'd rather do that then to completely discard them or gamble on using them.
Or do you think this metal keycap technique is the best method to fix existing box switches?
I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do at the moment.
(But I'm not in a major hurry right now. )
Post by: mounds on Sat, 04 August 2018, 12:32:11
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
There are some size references on Deskthority wiki (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Design), which is hardly official; however, the information there is typically pretty good. That information, plus anecdotal evidence provided through testing by users, does indicate some variation in tolerances between the two brands.
Imagine any other situation where compatibility was claimed and not necessarily found to be true in practice - equal outrage would be had. Look at the USB-C cable debacle on Amazon for some time, for instance. That scandal reformation was led by one individual too...
Post by: ideus on Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:00:36
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
There are some size references on Deskthority wiki (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Design), which is hardly official; however, the information there is typically pretty good. That information, plus anecdotal evidence provided through testing by users, does indicate some variation in tolerances between the two brands.
Imagine any other situation where compatibility was claimed and not necessarily found to be true in practice - equal outrage would be had. Look at the USB-C cable debacle on Amazon for some time, for instance. That scandal reformation was led by one individual too...
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:40:16
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Post by: ideus on Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:47:28
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 04 August 2018, 14:30:00
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.
What...? I was just asking for clarification as in shall (i.e. expresses certain laws and rules) or should not (i.e. to give advice or an opinion). I have no idea how what you wrote is in any way related to that question, other than to try to avoid it.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 04 August 2018, 15:27:11
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.
What...? I was just asking for clarification as in shall (i.e. expresses certain laws and rules) or should not (i.e. to give advice or an opinion). I have no idea how what you wrote is in any way related to that question, other than to try to avoid it.
Got your point. My bad. :thumb:
Post by: Glod on Sat, 04 August 2018, 17:53:08
Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.
But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA. If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 04 August 2018, 22:23:12
I can't replicate this. I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.
Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.
But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA. If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Old DSA molds were too tight on Clears. That was supposed to have been fixed quite a while ago and should not be a problem with newer DSA kits.
Post by: Giorgio on Sun, 05 August 2018, 01:33:45
I can't replicate this. I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.
Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.
But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA. If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
OMG :)) ;) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
You refund us.
Probably you don't know that DSA keycaps were designed to be tighter on stems, because a client wanted them designed that way for an industrial environment.
"Why are DSA mounts so tight?the DSA family was mainly created for industrial applications where customers required the keyboard to sustain a drop test of 4-6 feet, so the tighter the mount fit the better. These customers, unlike keyboard enthusiast, were not pulling keys on and off the keyboard."
".......They were first designed for POS boards and thus are a very tight fit, watch out if you're using MX clears!"
Post by: HotRoderX on Sun, 05 August 2018, 02:21:18
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
Post by: mkarlsson on Sun, 05 August 2018, 05:16:01
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Post by: Giorgio on Sun, 05 August 2018, 05:51:05
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
Why on earth cherry should publish some specs that are reserved to keycaps makers or to business partners? If you have a business deal with them, they'll make you know how to make cherry compatible stems, otherwise you buy their stems, measure them, and reverse engineer them. Why on earth do you assume that there is no form of quality control? Do you assume that the engine of your car is out of spec simply because you can't find on the internet some public blue print? If you are a third party switch maker, you simply measure the keycaps, the existing stems, and then you make a compatible product, that's the end of it. If you aren't able to do so, you (not you HotRoderx) are an imbecile. I don't even understand why some people actually like kailh. Many geekhackers had thousands of dollars lost, and still someone says that kailh is right. That's crazy.
Post by: mkarlsson on Sun, 05 August 2018, 07:27:54
Post by: ptiede on Sun, 05 August 2018, 13:22:34
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
Post by: mkarlsson on Sun, 05 August 2018, 16:58:26
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.
Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 05 August 2018, 19:13:12
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.
Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.
Kailh will reduce the horizontal axis down to 1.3, but that is still larger than any other MX clone. Let's see how those upcoming switches work in RL. Yet, I wonder why they just do not come down to 1.27 and actually solve the issue completely.
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 06 August 2018, 06:08:57
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.
Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.
Kailh will reduce the horizontal axis down to 1.3, but that is still larger than any other MX clone. Let's see how those upcoming switches work in RL. Yet, I wonder why they just do not come down to 1.27 and actually solve the issue completely.
By reducing the stems down to 1.27mm, they'd aknowledge that they're wrong, and that you can claim that your sets have been damaged by them. By reducing the keycaps by an infinitesimal amount, they can say that such an infinitesimal amout can't be surely the cause of your cracking, and that you deserve no money or replacements.
Post by: PoochZag on Mon, 06 August 2018, 08:47:23
I agree with the questioning why not just go down to 1.27mm if they have to remake new molds. Seems like it would instill more trust within us in the community. But maybe that's just it. Maybe the original BOX molds were 1.30 (their previous switches are) and then when DAREU asked for tight fit they made 1.32 molds. 1.30 molds already existing would explain why they so quickly decided to go with that
Post by: heyitsqi on Mon, 06 August 2018, 12:57:02
I do feel incredibly bad for those that have cracked stems on expensive keysets though :(
Post by: Rumblehotep on Mon, 06 August 2018, 16:53:51
Which is weird since I just built it a month ago with royal hako clears, while other boards that have had gmk sitting on them for almost a year are fine. So time must not necessarily be a factor.
I am so bummed out since some of these are my favorite switches.
This is gonna be a lot of desoldering...
Post by: mkarlsson on Mon, 06 August 2018, 17:28:32
Decapped all my box boards... didn't see any cracks or stress marks on SA or pbt caps but there are definite stress marks on my nautilus enter key and novelties.
Which is weird since I just built it a month ago with royal hako clears, while other boards that have had gmk sitting on them for almost a year are fine. So time must not necessarily be a factor.
I am so bummed out since some of these are my favorite switches.
This is gonna be a lot of desoldering...
I think the aluminium cap trick is worth trying if you already have some built boards.
Post by: HotRoderX on Mon, 06 August 2018, 20:50:24
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
Why on earth cherry should publish some specs that are reserved to keycaps makers or to business partners? If you have a business deal with them, they'll make you know how to make cherry compatible stems, otherwise you buy their stems, measure them, and reverse engineer them. Why on earth do you assume that there is no form of quality control? Do you assume that the engine of your car is out of spec simply because you can't find on the internet some public blue print? If you are a third party switch maker, you simply measure the keycaps, the existing stems, and then you make a compatible product, that's the end of it. If you aren't able to do so, you (not you HotRoderx) are an imbecile. I don't even understand why some people actually like kailh. Many geekhackers had thousands of dollars lost, and still someone says that kailh is right. That's crazy.
Thinking yall kinda missed my point. My point simply is when it came to MX black switches there tolerances are so lose. That a MX black switch can have a spring weight the same as a MX red switch. Thats insanely lose tolerances and specs. That being said its completely with in the realm of possibilities that the stems on Kailh are with in Cherry tolerances and specs. As others said consumers will vote at the end of the day. With out Cherry going this is the guide QC uses to measure stems. We can't really say and making something off a reversed engineered sample isn't creating it to spec. That is just taking a sample and guessing.
Regardless either the community will buy box switches are they won't. It's totally possible that at the end of the day Kailh doesn't care either way. I am sure we make up a small portion of the switches total overall sales.
Post by: Giorgio on Tue, 07 August 2018, 01:12:00
Post by: HotRoderX on Tue, 07 August 2018, 01:19:21
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
Post by: Poesjuh on Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:35:42
Any news with regard to possible cracks in pbt key caps and the future of box switches?
IMO the 1.29 or whatever really doesn’t cut it. Inb4 boxgate 2.0
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:37:27
Post by: Rumblehotep on Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:47:37
Wondering if they have the same horizontal thickening
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 08 August 2018, 02:00:06
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
Post by: Draic on Wed, 08 August 2018, 02:30:00
Post by: voight-kampff on Wed, 08 August 2018, 03:17:05
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.
What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition?
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.
That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.
So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
Post by: mkarlsson on Wed, 08 August 2018, 03:32:31
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.
What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition?
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.
That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.
So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
But, again, other manufacturers are not cracking that same keycaps, just kailh BOX.
Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 August 2018, 07:23:21
Post by: OracleKev on Wed, 08 August 2018, 09:17:53
Most design problems are multifactorial. However, in this case it relates with mechanical interference. Almost all Cherry compatible switches are within tolerances, while KBS are not. That fact sums the problem entirely into a poor tolerance stack management in the design of the KBS's cross width. As you can see is pretty simple. You may discuss materials and all but as long as other MX clones have been used issue free reveals this simple design flaw.
Nice sum up. There are now tons of caliper measurements and first hand accounts of stem damages—makes this practically conclusive.
Stem cross width being within whatever spec is poor excuse since that just means the spec is wrong.
It’s mind boggling how much property damage KBS have caused. Sigh...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: HotRoderX on Wed, 08 August 2018, 15:22:33
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.
What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition?
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.
That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.
So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
But, again, other manufacturers are not cracking that same keycaps, just kailh BOX.
Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not. I feel everyone is quick to roast Kailh over these switches when truth be told we don't know all the facts. I have heard varying reports of box switches with no problems and others that nuke stims faster then you can blink.
I also personally have had issues with Aliaz and MOD switches. Cap's any cap's fit on them extremely lose to the point I am shimming them so they stay on. My Godspeed set the space bar fits lose on anything but MX clear's.
That being said and pointed out. How do we know cap manufactures hadn't shrunk down there dyes by a tad to help elevate the lose stim issues with switches that are becoming popular/are popular.
My point I am trying to make is there might not be any standard in the making of cap's and switches. Most likely there isn't because cherry's never released there tolerances. That is the case someone really needs to sit down and make a standard. What has worked for 20 year's might not work tomorrow. History has proven this time and time again. Cherry doesn't want to step up and release there standard's and Tolerances. Perhaps then other manufactures should get together decided on the technical aspects then cherry can follow them or continue to fall to the way side.
Before anyone say's GMK uses original cherry molds. I am sure if there still using original mods That hadn't been reworked are retouched in anyway. There getting worn out at this point. Mold's are only good for so many castings before they finally just give up. This could be the other issues perhaps the molds that GMK is using are simply getting worn out. That the stims are not as thick as they once were on some of them. That could explain why some sets are affected and some aren't.
Post by: Kevadu on Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:15:19
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
Post by: ptiede on Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:23:06
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
I think they're referring to the new 1.30 molds.
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:24:01
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
So true. This thread is a fascinating trip thorough mental perversions. Unbelievable.
Post by: HotRoderX on Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:34:30
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
can you please quote them as to were they said that? Cause all Kailh said was the following "The size of the stim was increase per a customers request that was buying the bulk of the product" That in no way implies are states that there out of tolerance. Honestly done arguing this with people. This is the part of the community that makes my head spin. Its like people talking about Massdrop. They make there minds up and no amount of reason are logic matters.
Post by: ptiede on Wed, 08 August 2018, 19:10:45
Or an example of why it's useless to have a debate on the internet.my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
So true. This thread is a fascinating trip thorough mental perversions. Unbelievable.
Post by: Rumblehotep on Wed, 08 August 2018, 20:49:09
If I could magic wand one board to render box switches harmless it would be my revo one (I gather I was lucky to receive one with no issues) with box yellows so I chose that one.
Tried putting the RAMA cap on each switch in tandem, was fairly tight but not ridiculous, had to use the keypuller to get it off each time.
Then, since the horizonatal stems are the cause of the cracking issue I turned the cap sideways, which was much harder to put on and INSANELY hard to pull off, thought I was going to tear the switch housing apart before the cap would come free. However after doing this, the cap slid on very easily again in normal orientation and indeed would fall off if I turned the board upside down. I proceeded to do this to every switch on the board, satisified with the RAMA cap fallling off that the stem was squished enough.
Putting the gmk caps back on (Ocean Dolch) they definiitely are looser, I can pry them off easily by hand.
I had soldered this board last year before to go with a pok3r case and didn't really know what to do with it before I got the Revo, so the switches are pretty old.
Trying a switch on the royal hako board the RAMA cap fit a lot tighter in normal orientation, but doing the sideways method made it suffiiciently loose again imo.
I'll do the whole board tomorrow though, my fingers and wrists really hurt like hell now. Still less work than desoldering I suppose.
No real assurance that this method won't result in cracked caps in the future but I guess I'll never know for sure until it happens.
Post by: ptiede on Wed, 08 August 2018, 22:08:43
Tried out the metal keycap method. My only stainless steel cap is a SA R3 RAMA X cap. Thankfully, he put the letters R A M A on the underside around the stem to let you know its orientation.
If I could magic wand one board to render box switches harmless it would be my revo one (I gather I was lucky to receive one with no issues) with box yellows so I chose that one.
Tried putting the RAMA cap on each switch in tandem, was fairly tight but not ridiculous, had to use the keypuller to get it off each time.
Then, since the horizonatal stems are the cause of the cracking issue I turned the cap sideways, which was much harder to put on and INSANELY hard to pull off, thought I was going to tear the switch housing apart before the cap would come free. However after doing this, the cap slid on very easily again in normal orientation and indeed would fall off if I turned the board upside down. I proceeded to do this to every switch on the board, satisified with the RAMA cap fallling off that the stem was squished enough.
Putting the gmk caps back on (Ocean Dolch) they definiitely are looser, I can pry them off easily by hand.
I had soldered this board last year before to go with a pok3r case and didn't really know what to do with it before I got the Revo, so the switches are pretty old.
Trying a switch on the royal hako board the RAMA cap fit a lot tighter in normal orientation, but doing the sideways method made it suffiiciently loose again imo.
I'll do the whole board tomorrow though, my fingers and wrists really hurt like hell now. Still less work than desoldering I suppose.
No real assurance that this method won't result in cracked caps in the future but I guess I'll never know for sure until it happens.
Somone on discord got a small 1.5mm chisel to shave off the nubs of the box switches. They said it ended up working pretty well. Plus it looked like it took way less time than the keycap method. The only difficulty they said was you had to be carful not the remove too much, oh and not cutting up your hand :p
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 August 2018, 22:32:39
Post by: chuckdee on Wed, 08 August 2018, 22:54:26
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.
I thought that Mike said that the MD box keys would be the new ones in his statement.
Post by: ideus on Wed, 08 August 2018, 22:58:07
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.
I thought that Mike said that the MD box keys would be the new ones in his statement.
Right. That means their cross will be injection molded at 1.3 x-axis. Which may solve nothing, because that size may cause interference with some key caps. Mine are OG Cherry and GMK that have been reported to be sensitive to the cracking issue.
Post by: tofu-water on Thu, 09 August 2018, 01:18:18
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 09 August 2018, 02:44:59
Damn, just bought a board from someone with box blacks. Thankfully I don't own any expensive caps to ruin.. hopefully it wont be an issue. Should I worry? Sounds like some people haven't experienced the stretching so maybe the tooling is hit and miss. I do have switches I could swap out, I just would rather not desolder.
It destroys all kinds of keycaps. There are some people that try to show original "thoughts" by saying that modern keycaps are tighter, when there are many damaged OG Cherry sets from twenty years ago.
Post by: Geroximo on Thu, 09 August 2018, 09:01:08
This is horrendous. I don't even want to know how much damage has been done by this. All the expensive custom boards and expensive GMK sets rendered useless. This is absolutly insane.
Kailh needs to go out of business for this. Please don't buy from them anymore, I for sure won't.
Post by: chuckdee on Thu, 09 August 2018, 10:10:24
Post by: ideus on Thu, 09 August 2018, 10:38:08
Their reasoning is also suspect because of the differing results people are getting. If all of them were to the specs provided by DAREU, they should uniformly be deforming/cracking stems. As they are not, it seems that there is an additional problem of QC and manufacturing, which makes their efforts to fix the problems suspect, IMO.
The specification is only half of the problem. The other is the actual parts sizes, or process variability and capability. In this case there are problems with both. The specification was wrongly defined and the variability of the process may be out of specs as well. :(
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 09 August 2018, 12:32:53
I can confirm the problem. Cracked stems on my GMK HADapter set which was mounted on Kailh BOX blacks.
This is horrendous. I don't even want to know how much damage has been done by this. All the expensive custom boards and expensive GMK sets rendered useless. This is absolutly insane.
Kailh needs to go out of business for this. Please don't buy from them anymore, I for sure won't.
Really sorry for this. They should apologize. Again and again.
Post by: grizzly_teddy on Thu, 09 August 2018, 13:27:54
Post by: portbaron on Thu, 09 August 2018, 15:00:08
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
Post by: ideus on Thu, 09 August 2018, 16:24:46
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
What results did you get?
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 09 August 2018, 16:54:25
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 09 August 2018, 17:13:47
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1835/43048042825_dfcbda94a4_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/942/42146393080_1f7550d5c7_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Cherry MX Clear, Kailh Speed Bronze, Gateron Green, Hako True, Cherry MX Brown
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1776/43236270114_578e95384b_h.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/936/43235048544_10638f6ba2_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Kailh BOX (Hako True) with stem "shaved" a bit, stock Kailh BOX, Cherry MX Brown, Kailh Speed Bronze.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/932/43905104812_41d449d72e_h.jpg)
"Shaved" stem in progress on the left, stock on the right
Post by: Paopawdecarabao on Thu, 09 August 2018, 18:52:08
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 09 August 2018, 19:09:46
I'm building a board with box blacks from flashquark. Should I abort and just get silent blacks or tealios?At this point I would say yes, frankly both of those feel better than box blacks imo
I've crushed crosses on three boards so far and my fingernails feel like they want to come off, going to wait a few days for the next
Post by: Starius on Thu, 09 August 2018, 20:20:56
Tried out the metal keycap method. My only stainless steel cap is a SA R3 RAMA X cap. Thankfully, he put the letters R A M A on the underside around the stem to let you know its orientation.
If I could magic wand one board to render box switches harmless it would be my revo one (I gather I was lucky to receive one with no issues) with box yellows so I chose that one.
Tried putting the RAMA cap on each switch in tandem, was fairly tight but not ridiculous, had to use the keypuller to get it off each time.
Then, since the horizonatal stems are the cause of the cracking issue I turned the cap sideways, which was much harder to put on and INSANELY hard to pull off, thought I was going to tear the switch housing apart before the cap would come free. However after doing this, the cap slid on very easily again in normal orientation and indeed would fall off if I turned the board upside down. I proceeded to do this to every switch on the board, satisified with the RAMA cap fallling off that the stem was squished enough.
Putting the gmk caps back on (Ocean Dolch) they definiitely are looser, I can pry them off easily by hand.
I had soldered this board last year before to go with a pok3r case and didn't really know what to do with it before I got the Revo, so the switches are pretty old.
Trying a switch on the royal hako board the RAMA cap fit a lot tighter in normal orientation, but doing the sideways method made it suffiiciently loose again imo.
I'll do the whole board tomorrow though, my fingers and wrists really hurt like hell now. Still less work than desoldering I suppose.
No real assurance that this method won't result in cracked caps in the future but I guess I'll never know for sure until it happens.
Thanks for posting your results with the metal keycap method. I know I've been wanting to hear more about how it's been working out for people....
Post by: tofu-water on Thu, 09 August 2018, 22:45:45
Damn, just bought a board from someone with box blacks. Thankfully I don't own any expensive caps to ruin.. hopefully it wont be an issue. Should I worry? Sounds like some people haven't experienced the stretching so maybe the tooling is hit and miss. I do have switches I could swap out, I just would rather not desolder.
It destroys all kinds of keycaps. There are some people that try to show original "thoughts" by saying that modern keycaps are tighter, when there are many damaged OG Cherry sets from twenty years ago.
Ahh, thats unfortunate. I guess at least I have vintage blacks to swap them out with. Only time I experienced tighter modern caps was some cheap aliexpress ones. They went on tight on cherry clears, went on totally fine on browns.
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 10 August 2018, 17:00:43
Some close-up photos of BOX stems. I'm also working through my keyboard's worth of installed switches with a very tight aluminum HolyOOPs cap to shave the protruding parts along the X-axis of the + stem (work-in-progress pics below as well):Show Image(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1835/43048042825_dfcbda94a4_h.jpg)Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/942/42146393080_1f7550d5c7_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Cherry MX Clear, Kailh Speed Bronze, Gateron Green, Hako True, Cherry MX BrownShow Image(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1776/43236270114_578e95384b_h.jpg)Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/936/43235048544_10638f6ba2_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Kailh BOX (Hako True) with stem "shaved" a bit, stock Kailh BOX, Cherry MX Brown, Kailh Speed Bronze.Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/932/43905104812_41d449d72e_h.jpg)
"Shaved" stem in progress on the left, stock on the right
Interesting, one can actually see the extra bit of plastic on the x-axis that appears to be there just to add thickness.
Also, FWIW, I also heard the stems' cracking when I put my Maxkey SA set on my BOX Navies. I just didn't realize what it was at the time; I thought I'd accidentally hit the box instead of the cross, causing a noise, but, in retrospect, it was definitely the cracking. I haven't inspected my entire set of SP SA 1965 that I have on BOX Royals yet, but the few random caps I inspected didn't appear damaged.
Btw, this is the most popular topic I've started on GH. I wish it were about something happier :\
Post by: portbaron on Sat, 11 August 2018, 00:20:37
Looser gmk fit, so probably fine. It was as tedious as desoldering though, maybe more.Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
What results did you get?
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 11 August 2018, 00:50:46
Btw, this is the most popular topic I've started on GH. I wish it were about something happier :\
It was a useful topic to make, as all the attention has resulted in retooling of the future stems.
Post by: Starius on Sat, 11 August 2018, 07:59:59
The metal keycaps you used.... did the backs look like this?
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lVAAAOSwKOJa7R2T/s-l1600.jpg)
Post by: Rumblehotep on Sat, 11 August 2018, 13:06:56
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ideus on Sat, 11 August 2018, 15:12:17
Post by: Starius on Sat, 11 August 2018, 15:25:52
Post by: Rumblehotep on Sat, 11 August 2018, 15:59:11
Post by: Starius on Sat, 11 August 2018, 16:54:28
oh snap so I should get a diecast cap? I could be spreding the legs even though it's stainless steel?
This is new territory being explored, brave keyboardnauts.
That is to say, I do not know...
And perhaps if there is any spread, it might be flex that returns to original state?
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 11 August 2018, 19:38:42
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 11 August 2018, 19:57:10
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/109
It should be delivered tomorrow so we’ll see
Post by: ideus on Sat, 11 August 2018, 20:01:54
Post by: Rumblehotep on Sat, 11 August 2018, 20:44:19
Kept reapplying the cap horizontally on each stem, testing vertically, reapplying, testing again, etc until the cap would fall off effortlessly to gravity or catapulting off from the hako clear springs.
Putting caps back on, I went to check them once again, one at a time with a bright light as I did so. Now that I knew what to look for after seeing my cracked novelty, I found that
[attach=1]
Every. Single. Cap. was cracked or had stressmarks. Fug.
[attach=2]
Since the switches were freshly "shaved" I took accents off and tried a monotone look using caps I had never used before.
[attach=3]
Checking them NOT MORE THAN THIRTY SECONDS LATER, I can see the beginnings of stress points. And these are switches I had reworked until they were "loose" with the stainless steel RAMA cap.
So in short DON'T PUT CAPS ON ANY BOX STEMS!. I can't trust this shaving method will make them "safe" any longer. Maybe I did it wrong, maybe the filing method will work better but at this point I'm just going to desolder everything.
I really liked this quirky layout too.
[attach=4]
Maybe I'll try building this with different switches but oh yeah, my caps are all cracked!
Post by: ideus on Sat, 11 August 2018, 22:07:34
Went over my royal hako board with the cap method, for some reason it was a lot harder than my previous two, I could see the little bits of horizontal stem being shaved off.
Kept reapplying the cap horizontally on each stem, testing vertically, reapplying, testing again, etc until the cap would fall off effortlessly to gravity or catapulting off from the hako clear springs.
Putting caps back on, I went to check them once again, one at a time with a bright light as I did so. Now that I knew what to look for after seeing my cracked novelty, I found that
(Attachment Link)
Every. Single. Cap. was cracked or had stressmarks. Fug.
(Attachment Link)
Since the switches were freshly "shaved" I took accents off and tried a monotone look using caps I had never used before.
(Attachment Link)
Checking them NOT MORE THAN THIRTY SECONDS LATER, I can see the beginnings of stress points. And these are switches I had reworked until they were "loose" with the stainless steel RAMA cap.
So in short DON'T PUT CAPS ON ANY BOX STEMS!. I can't trust this shaving method will make them "safe" any longer. Maybe I did it wrong, maybe the filing method will work better but at this point I'm just going to desolder everything.
I really liked this quirky layout too.
(Attachment Link)
Maybe I'll try building this with different switches but oh yeah, my caps are all cracked!
I feel sorry for those nice key caps broken. Thank you very much for sharing your findings. Those KBS suck. Period. Pure trash.
Post by: ReverbSlush on Mon, 13 August 2018, 07:56:45
The only board I have box switches right now is my daily driver M65-A... it has hako trues and I'm not sure what to do with it now. I have SA Chocolatier on it.. I guess I'll have to just buy some cheap keycaps that I don't care about the stems getting stressed and use those. The layout and feel and everything is *finally* how I like it, and then this happens :(
Post by: Valff on Mon, 13 August 2018, 09:06:51
Post by: Glod on Mon, 13 August 2018, 09:15:00
this is real
i was wrong!
i just checked my Hyperfuse GMK on BOX Brown and Laser GMK on Hako Trues and I would say 90% have stress of some sort, over 50% look like they have an actual crack. None of them are broken to the point of unusable but this pretty much guarantees no resale! and that continued use could be dangerous!! they will now always be a little loose when i use them again.
I did not see stress cracks on my enjoy PBT caps (i checked everyone) or the caps that come with the K-Type. I am going to switch back to my crap pile G81 cherry double-shots.
WHAT A ****ING DISASTER! look what they did to my precious Hypefuse!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1778/30145410928_f0cc6d63ed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MVR7qh)
Where the hell can i even buy Halo Trues then? the closest thing to Hakos.
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 13 August 2018, 09:27:57
i am going to man up and admit when I am wrong, forget everything I have said before, I have to live with that. I was a ****
this is real
i was wrong!
i just checked my Hyperfuse GMK on BOX Brown and Laser GMK on Hako Trues and I would say 90% have stress of some sort, over 50% look like they have an actual crack. None of them are broken to the point of unusable but this pretty much guarantees no resale! and that continued use could be dangerous!! they will now always be a little loose when i use them again.
I did not see stress cracks on my enjoy PBT caps (i checked everyone) or the caps that come with the K-Type. I am going to switch back to my crap pile G81 cherry double-shots.
WHAT A ****ING DISASTER! look what they did to my precious Hypefuse!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1778/30145410928_f0cc6d63ed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MVR7qh)
Where the hell can i even buy Halo Trues then? the closest thing to Hakos.
I feel ya, man. My OG hyperfuse and my Nautilus set both met the box switch graveyard. RIP
On the plus side, I really like Hyperfuse origins, and now I have an excuse to go pick up a set! Woop woop! we all cray cray, man.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 13 August 2018, 09:33:00
Post by: ideus on Mon, 13 August 2018, 13:59:19
Post by: heyitsqi on Mon, 13 August 2018, 16:11:25
Post by: ideus on Mon, 13 August 2018, 18:00:08
Seeing all these damaged keysets breaks my heart. There's no way there's any possible suitable compensation. Hell, I'm even paranoid about my standard cherry MX clears which are pretty tight on my keycaps :(
Those stems has an small projection that fits the key caps more thightly than the other Cherry SW. It is nothing to be concern about. They have worked as that for eons.
Post by: Starius on Tue, 14 August 2018, 20:03:26
You guys familiar with the WASD 6 cherry MX switch tester, that comes with the clear keycaps?
Yesterday I put those clear keycaps on 6 different kailh switches.
Box Yellow, Box Burnt Orange, Box Navy, Box White, Box Jade, and a non-box Sage.
I clicked each one a few times, but then pretty much forgot about them until tonight.
I took them off to inspect each one, not really expecting to find anything... but because the keycaps are completely transparent, I saw some surprises.
Just after one day, 3 of the keycap/switches showed signs of stress.
The Box White and Box Jade switch both caused stress lines down two opposing sides of the cross on the keycaps.
The Box Navy seemed to cause the most stress, with each side of the cross showing stress lines in the clear plastic.
The Box Yellow and Box Burnt Orange showed no signs of stress yet, and unsurprisingly neither did the Sage switch. (My control switch I guess?)
I don't know about you, but I'm rather surprised to discover this. Particularly the Box White, because I've had 2 people reply to me on youtube just yesterday saying they've had no trouble with their Box Whites. Granted, these clear keycaps from a switch tester are probably not great in terms of quality - but wow.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 15 August 2018, 14:09:44
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Post by: ideus on Wed, 15 August 2018, 14:25:43
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Post by: Glod on Wed, 15 August 2018, 15:49:13
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Oh i am sure it has issues, i just have like 5 sets of them, I just don't care about them.
Post by: ideus on Wed, 15 August 2018, 15:55:24
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Oh i am sure it has issues, i just have like 5 sets of them, I just don't care about them.
If you do not need them and they are beige ones we may talk. ;)
Post by: Glod on Wed, 15 August 2018, 16:06:55
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Oh i am sure it has issues, i just have like 5 sets of them, I just don't care about them.
If you do not need them and they are beige ones we may talk. ;)
so i can confirm OG cherry's also crack under BOX, its hard to photograph because they are shiny black, but its there on the first key i picked off
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1794/42248785860_f401db4503_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27no57q)
Post by: Starius on Wed, 15 August 2018, 18:03:57
Well, I just tried a small one day test and I already have discouraging results.
You guys familiar with the WASD 6 cherry MX switch tester, that comes with the clear keycaps?
Yesterday I put those clear keycaps on 6 different kailh switches.
Box Yellow, Box Burnt Orange, Box Navy, Box White, Box Jade, and a non-box Sage.
I clicked each one a few times, but then pretty much forgot about them until tonight.
I took them off to inspect each one, not really expecting to find anything... but because the keycaps are completely transparent, I saw some surprises.
Just after one day, 3 of the keycap/switches showed signs of stress.
The Box White and Box Jade switch both caused stress lines down two opposing sides of the cross on the keycaps.
The Box Navy seemed to cause the most stress, with each side of the cross showing stress lines in the clear plastic.
The Box Yellow and Box Burnt Orange showed no signs of stress yet, and unsurprisingly neither did the Sage switch. (My control switch I guess?)
I don't know about you, but I'm rather surprised to discover this. Particularly the Box White, because I've had 2 people reply to me on youtube just yesterday saying they've had no trouble with their Box Whites. Granted, these clear keycaps from a switch tester are probably not great in terms of quality - but wow.
Day two of my little test.
The the cap on the Box Yellow switch is now showing stress marks, and Box Orange is only just barely starting to show a stress mark on one side.
I guess that's all I need to know from that test. :(
Post by: ReverbSlush on Wed, 15 August 2018, 21:24:06
I just need some cheap keycaps (preferably a muted color) so I'm not sacrificing my nice sets that I have right now and I can still use this keyboard.
edit: I'm not married to a specific profile... so doesn't have to be SA or anything.
This is my layout:
(https://i.imgur.com/qVj9z86.jpg)
Post by: kolicivan on Thu, 16 August 2018, 06:42:57
I've been checking a few of the keycaps and none of them showed any issues.
Tested them back on MX Black switches and they all fit snugly.
Maybe Cherry doubleshots don't have this issue like GMK has.
Post by: method_ on Thu, 16 August 2018, 07:47:37
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:18:47
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:29:00
This guy is surely against vaccines.
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 16 August 2018, 09:33:12
I'm using Cherry vintage Doubleshot keycaps on BOX Navies.
I've been checking a few of the keycaps and none of them showed any issues.
Tested them back on MX Black switches and they all fit snugly.
Maybe Cherry doubleshots don't have this issue like GMK has.
Very possible. Thanks for sharing. The more we know, the better advice we can offer to others.
Post by: fr8train on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:13:21
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Thanks for reading the article!
Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.
I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions
You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:30:09
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:35:50
Looking for recommendations of a US vendor that can sell me blank keycaps for my custom layout.
I just need some cheap keycaps (preferably a muted color) so I'm not sacrificing my nice sets that I have right now and I can still use this keyboard.
edit: I'm not married to a specific profile... so doesn't have to be SA or anything.
This is my layout:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/qVj9z86.jpg)
Maybe something like this?
https://kprepublic.com/products/9009-colorway-sa-profile-dye-sub-keycap-set-thick-pbt-plastic-keyboard-gh60-xd60-xd84-cospad-tada68-rs96-zz96-87-104-660
Post by: fr8train on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:40:39
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...
That is the Cherry MX spec.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:47:51
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/ (https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/)
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...
That is the Cherry MX spec.
The Cherry specification is not known.
Post by: mgsickler on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:48:33
The Cherry specification is not known.
There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 16 August 2018, 10:58:37
The Cherry specification is not known.
There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.
Thank you for the heads up. I have been asking for it since the beginning of this crisis. Seth's article is well documented. I hope the new upcoming switch batch does actually solve the issue. I have 100 units on order.
Post by: ErgoMacros on Thu, 16 August 2018, 11:49:53
Quote
We can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.
Alternate explanations could be:
- Cherry is producing switches with tighter tolerances than their own spec would allow, and Kaihua may be producing across their full tolerance range.
- When not "dead on" Cherry switches may "err" on the side of thinner, and Kaihua may "err" on the thicker end of in spec
Post by: fr8train on Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:05:35
From the article he states, just below the table:QuoteWe can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.
Alternate explanations could be:
- Cherry is producing switches with tighter tolerances than their own spec would allow, and Kaihua may be producing across their full tolerance range.
- When not "dead on" Cherry switches may "err" on the side of thinner, and Kaihua may "err" on the thicker end of in spec
An interesting theory, for sure. And it's possible, I suppose, although I think it's unlikely that among the extraordinary number of MX switches that have been manufactured, there's not a quorum that ended up at that max 1.33mm tolerance. Also, even if you're exactly correct, all that means is that there are millions of standard Kailh switches out there that are 1.33mm, but those have not caused a cracking epidemic, and so it stands to reason that 1.33mm is not dangerous.
Post by: voight-kampff on Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:18:21
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.
Post by: ideus on Thu, 16 August 2018, 12:49:38
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.
No. The issue is not caused by frequent changes, it is caused by interference and happens even at the first try.
Post by: Starius on Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:14:12
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.
No. The issue is not caused by frequent changes, it is caused by interference and happens even at the first try.
Yeah, my little test using switch tester keycaps would support your statement.
They were pulled on and off cherry mix switches for months, no sign of wear.
Put them on box switches, and they formed stress marks in just 1 - 2 days.
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:45:09
Post by: dgneo on Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:47:23
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I don’t understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?
It's actually quite recent, date on the spec sheet reads August 10th 2018
(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/cherry-mx-cross-stem-specifications.jpg)
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 13:57:31
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I don’t understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?
It's actually quite recent, date on the spec sheet reads August 10th 2018Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/cherry-mx-cross-stem-specifications.jpg)
I noticed the modern logo... but still may have been some years. It’s very very recent. Does anyone has access to the previous one? It would be interesting to see if anything has changed.
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 14:05:26
The Cherry specification is not known.
There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.
Thank you for the heads up. I have been asking for it since the beginning of this crisis. Seth's article is well documented. I hope the new upcoming switch batch does actually solve the issue. I have 100 units on order.
Weird that the spec sheet is from last week though...
Post by: Photoelectric on Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:25:04
Edit: Here's the 1985 data sheet they have hosted:
https://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b9/Cherry_MX_datasheet_%28July_1985%29.pdf
Post by: ideus on Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:30:30
Is there a way to verify the authenticity of the specification? I have read before that the specification was not available.
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:37:35
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Thanks for reading the article!
Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.
I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions
You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
User Kavik is a "he" not a "they" by the way ;)
Post by: fr8train on Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:51:36
::)
Is there a way to verify the authenticity of the specification? I have read before that the specification was not available.
Yes. I got it from Cherry through one of their representatives.
The date on the doc is when they sent it to me. Dunno why they did that, but that's what I'm told. In other words, it's not a brand new specification.
Post by: fr8train on Thu, 16 August 2018, 15:53:14
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Thanks for reading the article!
Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.
I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions
You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
User Kavik is a "he" not a "they" by the way ;)
Good to know, thx. :) SOP for journalists is to never assume gender with forum names, hence the "they/them" pronouns. I can change it in the article copy if you prefer he/him?
Post by: chuckdee on Thu, 16 August 2018, 16:52:25
According to Deskthority Wiki, there was no spec sheet info for the stem available for Cherry MX stems. This could be the first time it's become publicly available.
Edit: Here's the 1985 data sheet they have hosted:
https://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b9/Cherry_MX_datasheet_%28July_1985%29.pdf
Didn't the patent just expire? Wouldn't there have to be a spec sheet to patent it in the first place?
Post by: Giorgio on Thu, 16 August 2018, 16:54:12
I'm disgusted by the article of that guy. I don't know his name and I don't want to remember him. I just want to ask him to move away. Go back in a dumpster
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 16 August 2018, 17:14:09
And how would a manufacturer change the drawn date on a technical doc to the date it was sent? Makes no sense to me.
Post by: killyou on Thu, 16 August 2018, 19:43:05
And how would a manufacturer change the drawn date on a technical doc to the date it was sent? Makes no sense to me.That should be printed/plotted date instead of drawn date. They probably have a rule configured to put the latest date whenever you open the file. I'm doing that as well except for print date as I've mentioned in the beginning.
Post by: HotRoderX on Fri, 17 August 2018, 03:33:23
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Hate to point out this overly obvious fact but.. the community on geekhack and reddit. Is just a small portion of the WORLD WIDE community. I mean honestly we counted up all the people who reported this issue. Then compared it to a list of people who bought box switches from Novelkey's over the last 12 months. I bet it be less then 3%. I can argue he has to be one of the biggest sellers of box switches. Then there is the fact that cherry released there own specs and the differences is almost nothing. I think there more to this issue. I think people are way to quick to jump on box switches. I mean what are the Korean keyboard community's saying? Japanese Keyboard Communities? I can't help but wonder if there saying the same things everyone on Geekhack and Reddit are saying. The guys article was pretty legit. I mean if someone can bring hard evidence to bare against it. Then lets see it by hard evidence. I don't mean someone saying my switches broke my stims. Thats not hard evidence that doesn't prove anything. All that does is prove there was a issue some were.
Post by: Giorgio on Fri, 17 August 2018, 05:09:03
This makes me sad because it's the definitive proof that humans suck, but at the same time this makes any competition much easier :)) suckers
Post by: mkarlsson on Sat, 18 August 2018, 08:52:52
https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:32:03
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX
https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade
Yeah... I hear that Mike is supposed to be getting in some next week also, so this jives.
Post by: mkarlsson on Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:38:19
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX
https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade
Yeah... I hear that Mike is supposed to be getting in some next week also, so this jives.
Great, hope someone can do some testing soon...
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 18 August 2018, 09:43:15
the cracking is caused by a combination of the increased thickness of the X and of the Y axis of the switch
The punishment will come with the fallen angel, the destroyer of keycaps. Their precious og sets will crack, and the sets of their sons will crack too until the seventh generation is born.
Post by: voight-kampff on Sat, 18 August 2018, 10:33:17
Genesis 6:11
Post by: ideus on Sat, 18 August 2018, 13:24:53
Post by: mkarlsson on Sun, 19 August 2018, 14:31:19
Post by: ideus on Sun, 19 August 2018, 14:54:38
I asked on the KBDfans Discord server about it. None from KBDfans responeded, but user phong said that he saw somewhere that Mike from NovelKeys would be testing it this weekend.
Great.
Post by: petamva on Sun, 19 August 2018, 23:42:23
Post by: Lansky on Mon, 20 August 2018, 04:44:26
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/404457789893640234/480940883282231306/image.jpg?width=477&height=636)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/404457789893640234/480941022784913427/image.jpg?width=477&height=636)
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 20 August 2018, 15:51:39
Post by: WheresTheSNES on Fri, 24 August 2018, 13:14:59
Post by: Starius on Fri, 24 August 2018, 13:47:01
Post by: HotRoderX on Sun, 26 August 2018, 14:19:21
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.
Post by: Starius on Sun, 26 August 2018, 17:31:09
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.
I have to say, it's looking good so far.
I've had the keycap on for 2 days now with no visible signs of stress on the keycap stem. With all the other box switches I tried this on before, they showed signs either after the first day or two. I'll probably leave it on for a couple more days here to be sure, but so far it's looking like these new Box Jade switches are safe.
So, kudos to NovelKeys for getting these changed in a pretty quick period of time.
Post by: HotRoderX on Sun, 26 August 2018, 18:15:36
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.
I have to say, it's looking good so far.
I've had the keycap on for 2 days now with no visible signs of stress on the keycap stem. With all the other box switches I tried this on before, they showed signs either after the first day or two. I'll probably leave it on for a couple more days here to be sure, but so far it's looking like these new Box Jade switches are safe.
So, kudos to NovelKeys for getting these changed in a pretty quick period of time.
please keep us updated I am curious and please keep eye on the caps for least a few months. I am not 100% sure still it was just the switches. I mean the switch stims most likely did play a role. I am not going to say they didn't at this point. Only I wonder if the tolerances on the caps were to tight. They were stretching on cherry stims. Just going from Cherry stim to a obviously bigger stim. Causes a much bigger issue. Hope that makes since but thanks for keeping us updated.
Post by: Hayte on Tue, 18 September 2018, 15:52:03
Post by: Lansky on Tue, 18 September 2018, 16:33:28
Does any retailer in the EU even sell the new stem switches yet? I'm still using 25 euro Tai Hao ABS doubleshots (which all cracked immediately when putting them on box whites except for the spacebar).
CandyKeys seem to have pre-order option (atleast for Royals):
https://www.candykeys.com/product/novelkeys-box-royal
Post by: Hayte on Wed, 19 September 2018, 03:05:27
I still get the feeling there are a handful of people like Mike who give a damn and theres everyone else. I was going to just order from Novelkeys but international shipping cost almost as much as the switches. Damn near made me cry when I got to checkout.
Post by: euphxenos on Thu, 20 September 2018, 00:12:23
I emailed candykeys about the new stems a while ago but the response was "soon". I never looked at the box royal listing though so thanks for the heads up. Seeing them differrentiate new and old stem is reassuring.
I still get the feeling there are a handful of people like Mike who give a damn and theres everyone else. I was going to just order from Novelkeys but international shipping cost almost as much as the switches. Damn near made me cry when I got to checkout.
Have you tried KBDfans? It takes a while to get them shipped from China, but it'll probably be cheaper for you. It took 23 days for them to ship some of the new box navies and box pale blues to me from China to the US. They've got the new version, and the minimum for free shipping is pretty reasonable.
Post by: Hayte on Thu, 20 September 2018, 04:45:09
It took Herculian force of will not to add a kbd75 v2 to my cart though...
Post by: Starius on Thu, 20 September 2018, 06:18:19
It takes a while to get them shipped from China, but it'll probably be cheaper for you. It took 23 days for them to ship some of the new box navies and box pale blues to me from China to the US.
Things are about to get a bit slower from China due to holidays over there. There's the Mid-Autumn Festival followed by The National Day of the People's Republic of China which I'm told, despite it's name, is celebrated for a week. Sounds like things should settle down a bit in mid October. Until then, I can only assume they're partying hard!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/d1ab649ad3e84ed8c0e671805e1a4b54/tenor.gif)
Post by: oHimari on Thu, 20 September 2018, 09:11:07
(https://imgur.com/9vol97Q.jpg)
I had put few keycaps from GMK Laser on the new navy switch with fixed stem for a few days.
After I took those keycaps off, I still discover some stress marks on corners of the x-axis.
Those keycaps still fit on other switches, but I'm not sure how it will turn out if I put them on for a month or longer.
I guess without removing those small nubs on the x-axis it's still not completely safe to put GMK caps on box switch?
Post by: mkarlsson on Thu, 20 September 2018, 12:07:15
Post by: redbanshee on Thu, 20 September 2018, 14:44:12
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Post by: Koriko on Thu, 20 September 2018, 14:58:02
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
Post by: redbanshee on Thu, 20 September 2018, 15:03:19
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Post by: Tyson on Thu, 20 September 2018, 15:36:23
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Hmmmmmm, interesting. I wonder what Wei did with his old pre-tooled Violets, could he have possibly mixed them in with the new re-tooled and sold them all as "New" re-tooled stems?
Post by: deak0i on Thu, 20 September 2018, 16:03:38
So, any suggestions for tactile clicky non Kaihl plate mounted switches similar in feel to the whites?
Post by: OverKill on Thu, 20 September 2018, 17:14:33
Show Image(https://imgur.com/jr1QEVD.jpg)Show Image(https://imgur.com/9vol97Q.jpg)
I had put few keycaps from GMK Laser on the new navy switch with fixed stem for a few days.
After I took those keycaps off, I still discover some stress marks on corners of the x-axis.
Those keycaps still fit on other switches, but I'm not sure how it will turn out if I put them on for a month or longer.
I guess without removing those small nubs on the x-axis it's still not completely safe to put GMK caps on box switch?
Which keycap is this that is cracked?
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 20 September 2018, 17:49:08
Can you see this on other keycaps? Or is it just the one keycap?
Post by: Baron on Thu, 20 September 2018, 19:21:22
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
stay away from box switches, not all kailh
other kailh switches are fine
Post by: Justin_aka_OsP_SSJ4 on Thu, 20 September 2018, 20:47:57
Post by: oHimari on Fri, 21 September 2018, 08:09:08
I pretty sure the switch I tested with is updated version of the navy switch. I have old Hako, navy, jade box switch in hand. By comparing them with the naked eye, the new navy switch did have smaller nibs compare to the old one.
Four of GMK caps I tested with are brand new. So the chance I getting four defected GMK caps in the road is really low. And all of them getting varying degrees of stress marks after the test.
I also put SA HyperFuse on my new KIRA EXS build with new box navy for more than a week, and they survived without any stress mark or crack.
Post by: portbaron on Fri, 21 September 2018, 10:07:51
Some additional information to my previous post:I think SP SA caps may handle these better. I have had SA hyperfuse on old box navies for 6 months and they don't seem cracked (I checked 6 randomly). The only GMK I have are on box whites, but I filed those down with a jeweler's file.
I pretty sure the switch I tested with is updated version of the navy switch. I have old Hako, navy, jade box switch in hand. By comparing them with the naked eye, the new navy switch did have smaller nibs compare to the old one.
Four of GMK caps I tested with are brand new. So the chance I getting four defected GMK caps in the road is really low. And all of them getting varying degrees of stress marks after the test.
I also put SA HyperFuse on my new KIRA EXS build with new box navy for more than a week, and they survived without any stress mark or crack.
Post by: Photoelectric on Fri, 21 September 2018, 12:44:57
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Their pictures still show the old stems with extra protrusions on the horizontal part of the +. Can you inspect your switch stems with a magnifying glass? To be sure you actually did get the smaller retooled stem?
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1473/3902/products/6_1910dc9f-d8e9-469f-ba3d-dd629aedf5cb_1800x1800.jpg)
Post by: parityb1t on Fri, 21 September 2018, 14:26:22
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Their pictures still show the old stems with extra protrusions on the horizontal part of the +. Can you inspect your switch stems with a magnifying glass? To be sure you actually did get the smaller retooled stem?Show Image(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1473/3902/products/6_1910dc9f-d8e9-469f-ba3d-dd629aedf5cb_1800x1800.jpg)
If you, or anyone in fact, have the means to measure accurately what the new stem dimensions are as well. Could verify even further.
Post by: rvcjew on Sat, 22 September 2018, 13:20:29
Malcolm
Post by: ideus on Sat, 22 September 2018, 19:30:37
Post by: HotRoderX on Sat, 22 September 2018, 20:49:07
I have purchased (new) Jades and Navy's from NovelKeys and both with my caliper are at 1.28-1.3mm on the X axis on the bumps. I do not have anything from KBDFans. I guess I will have to use cheap caps on these till more info comes of this?
Malcolm
I am confused if the new sims are the same tolerances as cherry mx clears then its not the switches breaking keycaps. It would have to be the keycaps are out of spec? Unless someone else can bring to reason/light how the switch would be faulty at this point.
Post by: ramblinrose on Sun, 23 September 2018, 08:31:44
Post by: hammerbrotha on Sun, 23 September 2018, 16:29:54
YMMV and do this at your own risk.
A video of what I did is here:
Post by: ReverbSlush on Mon, 24 September 2018, 11:25:16
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 25 September 2018, 13:47:38
Post by: Hayte on Tue, 25 September 2018, 16:34:27
Show Image(https://imgur.com/jr1QEVD.jpg)
At least they didn't split all the way like the old box whites!
(https://i.imgur.com/6EaG3sF.jpg)
Ok, I'm going to go back to crying in a corner now...
Post by: phatty on Tue, 25 September 2018, 18:39:38
Post by: HotRoderX on Tue, 25 September 2018, 20:13:39
You have stress on the two support stems from the stabilisers as well.
good catch kinda leads credence to it could be the key caps them self's are the issue.
Post by: Hayte on Wed, 26 September 2018, 02:32:47
The damage to all 3 posts was probably done when trying to remove the cap. The caps go on ok but taking them off is very hard. I have new box whites coming in the mail so I'll sacrifice the numpad keys in the name of science when they arrive.
Post by: phatty on Wed, 26 September 2018, 02:39:39
Hako Royal Trues have yet to damage any of my keycaps. I also mounted GMK Laser and JTK PoW and I can't see any signs of wear. I will keep testing and report back.
Post by: TunnaTown on Wed, 26 September 2018, 12:16:56
Same. I don't have callipers, but I'll take macro photos of new stems next to old. I've shaved old Hako True stems with a CNC'd sharp aluminum keycap, and so far so good with those. It was mostly the protrusions on the x-axis that are now smoothed out. Curious if the new stems still have the protrusions but a slimmed down cross instead.
Afaik, they slimmed down the bumps.
Post by: CustomerSupport on Wed, 26 September 2018, 13:23:51
Perhaps I save some money by not getting switches then finding some other switches after the fact?
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 26 September 2018, 14:18:26
Man this isn't inspiring confidence for me in purchasing a Tokyo60 with Halo Trues…Halos are not box stems.
Perhaps I save some money by not getting switches then finding some other switches after the fact?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 29 September 2018, 10:27:17
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
Post by: Starius on Sat, 29 September 2018, 10:43:50
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...
Post by: OracleKev on Sat, 29 September 2018, 10:53:59
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...
Whoever is the relevant vendor should be able to order the stems. Chinese switch mfgs typically are willing to do this.
IMO vendors should step up more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Starius on Sat, 29 September 2018, 12:25:47
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...
Whoever is the relevant vendor should be able to order the stems. Chinese switch mfgs typically are willing to do this.
IMO vendors should step up more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought much the same initially.
I don't want to put words in the mouths of others, but based on a couple comments I've seen from Mike of Novelkeys, it seems like this solution isn't going to happen. I don't personally know why. But all things considered, I feel he's the vendor who has done the most to address this situation.
Personally, I still feel this would be the ideal solution as I don't want to get rid of my old stock of box switches, but feel that I need to in light of the current situation. I'd be more than happy to purchase new stems and retrofit my switches, if that was an available option.
Post by: Lansky on Sun, 30 September 2018, 13:12:42
(https://i.imgur.com/pAsMm88.png)
I was curious about it because I bought mine back in March so I contacted them and asked. And they promised me a free replacement too, which is pretty awesome. :)
Some vendors do step up. :thumb:
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 30 September 2018, 13:14:58
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 30 September 2018, 17:47:46
Post by: Rob27shred on Sun, 30 September 2018, 18:51:52
Did Novelkeys invent the BOX switches for Kailh? If not, then that CandyKeys ad calling the switches "Kailh BOX Switches by Novelkeys" is a misnomer. Particularly since all colors of BOX switches, including the basic ones like Black and Brown, have the same stem dimensions.
No, Kaihl came up with the box design on their own AFAIK & the first client who bought bulk amounts of BOX switches (Dare-U I believe) requested the stems be made a little thicker than normal. Which caused the stem thickness spec to spill over into all BOX switches produced is my understanding of the situation. Novelkeys just had the unfortunate luck to pick Kaihl & their BOX design as the basis for a lot of their boutique switches.
Although if you look at all of the measurement data in this, https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/41 (https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/41), KT thread. Pre retooled BOX switches had a rather large tolerance on both axis's thicknesses from batch to batch. Which definitely exacerbated the issue. Thankfully I only had two boards built with BOX switches when this news broke & I had SA key caps on both that were not stretched or cracked by them. However the BOX Royals on my Nightfox did stretch out a ePBT set of mine. They now fit fairly loosely on regular MX switches with a few that will pop off the switch without a piece of plastic baggie to hold them on.
Post by: Hayte on Mon, 01 October 2018, 16:16:03
You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:
(https://i.imgur.com/VgGUx5c.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lml8bRh.jpg)
Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.
(https://i.imgur.com/y877EMb.jpg)
Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)
Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):
(https://i.imgur.com/BTV7d5Y.jpg)
You can see the stress marks easier.
How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.
Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:
(https://i.imgur.com/uaqoiDY.jpg)
If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:
(https://i.imgur.com/L4VCfj5.jpg)
Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.
So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.
I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 01 October 2018, 19:07:48
I think I'm going to try to Dremel down the nubs on my big stockpile of original jades and forget about all of this.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 01 October 2018, 20:18:56
Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.I totally believe you no doubt, this whole situation is insane. That being said the ktype does have socketing alignment issues, I bought 2 ktypes and they both are really difficult to line up correct without bending the pins. in one case I pressed a switch in too hard and it ripped the Kailh-designed hot socket off the ktype PCB and I had to resolder. This was with the very first round of box browns. I never had issues be like with other hot socket boards except the ktype.
You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VgGUx5c.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/lml8bRh.jpg)
Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/y877EMb.jpg)
Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)
Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/BTV7d5Y.jpg)
You can see the stress marks easier.
How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.
Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/uaqoiDY.jpg)
If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/L4VCfj5.jpg)
Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.
So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.
I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.
Honestly Kailh does some good stuff, the hot sockets, their low profile, and their non-box stock is pretty good.
I've learned to love the non box Kailh lineup. Mostly because their light switches are not made in BOX and I prefer light switches. That doesn't help others though. Switches like Hako, Royals, etc are completely unique to BOX switches and I don't think can be replicated to non-box, they are truly innovative and makes the whole situation worse.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Post by: PoochZag on Tue, 02 October 2018, 08:04:12
Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.
You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VgGUx5c.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/lml8bRh.jpg)
Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/y877EMb.jpg)
Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)
Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/BTV7d5Y.jpg)
You can see the stress marks easier.
How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.
Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/uaqoiDY.jpg)
If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/L4VCfj5.jpg)
Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.
So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.
I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.
Nice write up. Does the cap cracked by the old stems, and the cap stretched by the new stems, fit onto "regular" switch stems ok, or are they loose?
Post by: Hayte on Tue, 02 October 2018, 14:29:52
Does the cap cracked by the old stems, and the cap stretched by the new stems, fit onto "regular" switch stems ok, or are they loose?
Depends on what you mean by loose.
I tried them on cherry mx blues and aristotles today and the cracked, stressed and new keycaps all sit snugly on the switch stem. The one with the fully cracked cruciform (damaged by old Kailh box stem) takes much less effort to pull off but thats the only difference I can tell. None are noticeably more or less wobbly than any other.
The keycaps with cracked cruciforms have a significant structural weakness now, so I cannot say if what I am observing today will still hold true when I am hotswapping caps and switches a month or two months from now. I don't even know if the old stem cracks have been getting worse over time because I only found out they were cracked relatively recently. The cracks may worsen or bits of the cruciform may splinter off. Right now, my caps are not falling off the board when I turn it upside down and shake it (and yes, I have seen those videos). I'll post an update in this thread if something like this starts happening in future.
Post by: mdlt97 on Wed, 03 October 2018, 12:51:39
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
bOx jAdE arE mY EnDgaMe CheRrY sWiTcH
they arent even cherry switches lol, they are kailh....
Post by: donutcat on Wed, 03 October 2018, 13:18:58
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
bOx jAdE arE mY EnDgaMe CheRrY sWiTcH
they arent even cherry switches lol, they are kailh....
Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....
Post by: zslane on Wed, 03 October 2018, 13:32:54
Post by: Photoelectric on Wed, 03 October 2018, 15:04:22
New stem on the left, old stem on the right in all pictures.
(https://i.imgur.com/41eGMg5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TNuZsJp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3iiZu8K.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dNVjgsd.jpg)
Post by: nerdblog_io on Wed, 03 October 2018, 16:09:01
I've looked at my new batch of retooled BOX switches (rose-gold-themed Novelias) and compared them with the original stem shape (Hako True) under magnification. I don't see any difference on the rear side where the metal pins protrude for connection to a PCB. There is a difference in the stem shape: the outer "perimeter walls" are slightly thicker, and the horizontal part of the stem still has vertical protrusions, but they are thinner and slimmer. I do not have callipers, but these were photographed as parallel as possible, and using my ruler on my screen, the overall X and Y thickness, including the protrusions, seems to be basically the same. Here's the comparison:
New stem on the left, old stem on the right in all pictures.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/41eGMg5.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TNuZsJp.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3iiZu8K.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/dNVjgsd.jpg)
R.I.P my DSA Legacy Rush set :mad: :mad: :mad:
zealio v2 here we come
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 03 October 2018, 18:19:29
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 03 October 2018, 22:10:49
Thanks. Mocking fellow keyboard enthusiasts isn't a good look.
Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 04 October 2018, 15:48:32
Thanks. Mocking fellow keyboard enthusiasts isn't a good look.
Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....
I think you meant to quote mdlt97, not donutcat, just FYI.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 04 October 2018, 15:51:52
Post by: Kavik on Thu, 04 October 2018, 15:54:49
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sat, 06 October 2018, 14:50:35
https://deskthority.net/review-f45/box-switches-still-cracking-keycaps-t19891.html?sid=e145fad1665b74327b89f4e8cba7b3c7
Post by: HotRoderX on Sat, 06 October 2018, 15:16:52
I take a cherry MX clear then take a re-tooled box switch. Measure both and both are the exactly same tolerances on the stim. The retooled box has the little nubs giving them LESS surface area to clamp on to the cap. The cherry MX clear has more surface area due to nub less design.
Since this issue is still happening it has to be the added nubs. Perhaps there causing a situation were pressure is being placed on the cap in such a concentrated area that its causing the cape to stress and fracture. That is the only logical conclusion I think anyone can come to. Its one I hadn't thought of and no one else has obviously. Perhaps the issue was never the thickness but the nubs them selfs.
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 06 October 2018, 15:38:22
Post by: portbaron on Sat, 06 October 2018, 15:56:53
I did put some spare gmk caps on new jades for a day while waiting for a pcb, and none of those have shown cracking yet. But I don't know if I have the patience to file the jades for an 1800, leaving my only alternatives as a set of gatistotles I have sitting around. I love the sound and feel of gatistotles, but the crooked stem aspect is daunting even though I have a bunch of extras.
So I guess this means there's currently no way to get good off the shelf or non-crooked clicky switches.
Post by: Starius on Sat, 06 October 2018, 16:50:03
However, I did leave that keycap on the retooled jade switch anyways. After this recent discussion here I decided to check in on it. Sure enough, after all this time now, a distinctive stress/crack line is showing up on one of the cross sides of the stem. This is extremely disheartening.
I loved how the box switches felt, but I guess I can no longer trust them as long as those nubs remain.
(I'm taking your word that there are still small nubs on the new jade switches, because I have trouble seeing them with my eyes.)
I do not know what to do with all these switches now...
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 06 October 2018, 17:26:36
I do not know what to do with all these switches now...
I'm going to try this pliers method from abrahamstechnology on Deskthority. Hoping it works, since I can't go back to any inferior Cherry or Cherry-compatible switch.
https://deskthority.net/review-f45/box-switches-still-cracking-keycaps-t19891.html#p425551
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 06 October 2018, 22:08:28
I do not know what to do with all these switches now...
I'm going to try this pliers method from abrahamstechnology on Deskthority. Hoping it works, since I can't go back to any inferior Cherry or Cherry-compatible switch.
https://deskthority.net/review-f45/box-switches-still-cracking-keycaps-t19891.html#p425551
Looks like that didn't work either. He's now saying many keycaps are cracked
RIP
We're just going to have to use PBT caps on these. There's no other thing to do if you want these novel switches.
Post by: iliketimex on Sun, 07 October 2018, 09:42:18
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 07 October 2018, 10:04:14
I believe he means that his were cracked before he modded the stems. But I'm going to mod and test before risking any ABS caps on them.
Looks like that didn't work either. He's now saying many keycaps are cracked
RIP
We're just going to have to use PBT caps on these. There's no other thing to do if you want these novel switches.
Post by: wholypantalones on Sun, 07 October 2018, 10:19:48
Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Post by: ReverbSlush on Sun, 07 October 2018, 12:46:12
I just got a newsletter on 10/5 from Kono: "Royal Hako Clear and Royal Hako True switches available now! Experience typing like never before with these unique, intensely tactile switches. - Buy Now"
Do vendors just have such tight margins that they can't afford to address this responsibly? Is it only up to us the consumer to do the research and choose not to buy them? Doesn't look good to new casual users getting into the hobby.
Post by: HotRoderX on Sun, 07 October 2018, 13:07:24
Aside from maybe 1 thread here and there... why hasn't this blown up more?
I just got a newsletter on 10/5 from Kono: "Royal Hako Clear and Royal Hako True switches available now! Experience typing like never before with these unique, intensely tactile switches. - Buy Now"
Do vendors just have such tight margins that they can't afford to address this responsibly? Is it only up to us the consumer to do the research and choose not to buy them? Doesn't look good to new casual users getting into the hobby.
Honestly and this is just my 2 cents. I have always found Kono's practices shady. There always seems to be some excuse or reason they can't do something. There has been issues with them on reddit in the past with warrenty's on there products. Them sending out a newsletter with a product they know is defective to try to move stock isn't shocking at all. I am sure they have some stupid excuse to why its ok for them to do so.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 07 October 2018, 13:09:46
Aside from maybe 1 thread here and there... why hasn't this blown up more?
I just got a newsletter on 10/5 from Kono: "Royal Hako Clear and Royal Hako True switches available now! Experience typing like never before with these unique, intensely tactile switches. - Buy Now"
Do vendors just have such tight margins that they can't afford to address this responsibly? Is it only up to us the consumer to do the research and choose not to buy them? Doesn't look good to new casual users getting into the hobby.
To be fair, they do warn right at the top of their product page:
Quote
"Compatibility Note: pre-retooling Box switches may cause cracking in certain aftermarket ABS keycap sets — notably those from GMK. PBT / POM keycaps will not crack, but they may experience stretching. Internal testing indicates that the cracking / stretching does not affect GMK / aftermarket sets universally, so yours may fit correctly on Box switches. We recommend testing a spare keycap on your Box switches for at least two weeks, then performing a visual inspection / fitment test on Cherry MX switches, before applying the entire set."
That's some very plain and practical advise. I wouldn't recommend anything other than PBT on these switches. I'm not a fan of having anything that limits my options for keycaps, but some of the box switches really are worth it.
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sun, 07 October 2018, 13:34:20
Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh is making themselves the Apple of keyswitches.
Post by: wholypantalones on Sun, 07 October 2018, 13:48:56
Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh is making themselves the Apple of keyswitches.
But they're so innovative and hot right now, and people still waste their money on Apple products..
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sun, 07 October 2018, 14:23:40
BOX switches are a good design, but poorly engineered and eventually break keycaps.Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh is making themselves the Apple of keyswitches.
But they're so innovative and hot right now, and people still waste their money on Apple products..
Post by: Harms on Sun, 07 October 2018, 16:56:33
I have some new re tooled box royals coming in.
Does that mean I shouldn't use them?
This is ridiculous. I already had to rebuy them a second time.
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sun, 07 October 2018, 17:09:34
For real?
I have some new re tooled box royals coming in.
Does that mean I shouldn't use them?
This is ridiculous. I already had to rebuy them a second time.
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
I know, right?
Post by: portbaron on Sun, 07 October 2018, 17:26:26
For real?I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it. I have too many keycaps anyway and I want the click. This way there's more testing with relevant caps and less hysteria. If they do crack, fine, I'll file them down like I did my whites and navys and I'll know for sure.
I have some new re tooled box royals coming in.
Does that mean I shouldn't use them?
This is ridiculous. I already had to rebuy them a second time.
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
So far has anyone had thick (gmk or epbt) keycaps disintegrate on them or literally break off the board without gratuitous switching? Or do they just notice that the keycaps are looser if moved to another board?
Post by: Starius on Sun, 07 October 2018, 17:34:50
I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
Well, like I said, the stress marks on the new Jades I tested took a lot longer than a week to show.
I started my keycap test on the new Jade on August 24th. And a couple weeks later, things still looked good.
But when I took a look the other day, not as good.
Granted, I've only tested one keycap. But the way it looks today is how the keycaps looked on the original Boxes after just a couple days.
I strongly urge more patience in your testing before putting a valuable set on them. Just my advice.
EDIT: Wrote this before you edited your statement about testing with more relevant keycaps. ;)
Post by: portbaron on Sun, 07 October 2018, 17:38:57
I have sets I'm willing to lose to know. Probably be good to use them rather than just have them sit untouched too. I'm also not sure that white lines showing up = eventually going break off. Of course I could just spend 4+ hours/board and file them, but most people won't do that so it's good to know where they stand stock. I want to see if I can get the caps to actually split.I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
Well, like I said, the stress marks on the new Jades I tested took a lot longer than a week to show.
I started my keycap test on the new Jade on August 24th. And a couple weeks later, things still looked good.
But when I took a look the other day, not as good.
Granted, I've only tested one keycap. But the way it looks today is how the keycaps looked on the original Boxes after just a couple days.
I strongly urge more patience in your testing before putting a valuable set on them. Just my advice.
Post by: Starius on Sun, 07 October 2018, 18:20:35
And if that's as bad as it gets for some sets, I imagine I might be okay with that.
I know it's going to take quite some time but keep us apprised of your results!
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Sun, 07 October 2018, 21:32:08
I have sets I'm willing to lose to know. Probably be good to use them rather than just have them sit untouched too. I'm also not sure that white lines showing up = eventually going break off. Of course I could just spend 4+ hours/board and file them, but most people won't do that so it's good to know where they stand stock. I want to see if I can get the caps to actually split.I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
Well, like I said, the stress marks on the new Jades I tested took a lot longer than a week to show.
I started my keycap test on the new Jade on August 24th. And a couple weeks later, things still looked good.
But when I took a look the other day, not as good.
Granted, I've only tested one keycap. But the way it looks today is how the keycaps looked on the original Boxes after just a couple days.
I strongly urge more patience in your testing before putting a valuable set on them. Just my advice.
With thin doubleshots, it happens in only a few days, especially if they are old, like my poor Wyse's.
Post by: portbaron on Sun, 07 October 2018, 22:00:39
Ya the same apparently for thin tai hao ABS, I want to see what happens with GMK and epbt in the long run. If only the clickys and tactiles weren't so nice, we wouldn't be caring about all this lol.
With thin doubleshots, it happens in only a few days, especially if they are old, like my poor Wyse's.
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Mon, 08 October 2018, 07:17:57
Post by: fer.real on Mon, 08 October 2018, 09:50:22
Has anyone successfully modded these switches, new or old, so they don't break keycaps?
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Mon, 08 October 2018, 11:00:35
I'm just speculating, but from the beginning I was concerned about the shape of the housing around the cross. It's not quite a circle and I wonder if it also puts uneven pressure on the stem of the keycap.
Has anyone successfully modded these switches, new or old, so they don't break keycaps?
You can use pliers to scrape off the nubs, but it's very difficult to get exactly right, you end up making some *too* loose.
Post by: PoochZag on Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:41:10
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Post by: Harms on Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:43:59
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?Kind of like how I'm feeling with the Royals. The best tactile switch for me. I'm thinking of just building my board with it and using PBT caps on it. They won't get damaged right. It's just ABS I'm seeing getting damaged.
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
Post by: portbaron on Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:51:18
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?I'm testing that now with new jades and novelias, but it may take a couple months to know for sure. I have filed the nubs off on whites and navys with a flat jeweler's file and those have not caused any problems in about 6 months.
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Post by: monkt on Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:57:02
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
I wouldn't assume that, personally. If the plastic cracks, then every time you put pressure on the key, it could be straining the crack further. That crack is a weak point, and I see no reason to assume it wouldn't get worse over time. The question is how much worse, and how much time? And that will vary according to many individual factors. It might work out for you individually, but we really don't know what to expect long-term. No one is in a position to give any assurances at this point.
Post by: BlindAssassin111 on Mon, 08 October 2018, 12:58:44
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
If you don't already have the switches, you can get navies in a standard MX style switch from novelkeys, that way you don't have any worries at all. But if you already have the retooled navies...then the above reply is the answer.
Post by: PoochZag on Mon, 08 October 2018, 13:11:19
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
If you don't already have the switches, you can get navies in a standard MX style switch from novelkeys, that way you don't have any worries at all. But if you already have the retooled navies...then the above reply is the answer.
Thanks for all the answers, I'll probably cautiously proceed with that plan knowing it could ruin a keyset in the long term.
I do already own the switches, I probably wouldn't want to buy them after all this, but since Kailh already has my money, whatever. I saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Post by: BlindAssassin111 on Mon, 08 October 2018, 13:39:19
I saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Box switches are short travel though so...
Post by: portbaron on Mon, 08 October 2018, 13:54:41
Operating point of box navies is almost 2mm, speed click navies are ~1.25mmI saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Box switches are short travel though so...
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/BOX_Navy.pdf?5816470357010718290
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/CPG151101D234_Speed_Navy.pdf?5056584868980342845
Post by: BlindAssassin111 on Mon, 08 October 2018, 13:59:56
Operating point of box navies is almost 2mm, speed click navies are ~1.25mm
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/BOX_Navy.pdf?5816470357010718290
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/CPG151101D234_Speed_Navy.pdf?5056584868980342845
I read the comment slightly wrong lol, I though pooch didn't like short travel and short actuation...oh well.
Post by: Harms on Mon, 08 October 2018, 14:27:09
I saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Box switches are short travel though so...
When I read that I thought that too lol. But I think he means the shorter actuation point though.
Post by: fer.real on Mon, 08 October 2018, 15:09:48
Post by: portbaron on Mon, 08 October 2018, 16:01:32
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.They don't have a click bar
Post by: HotRoderX on Mon, 08 October 2018, 16:48:15
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.
I know you can't use the springs from a box switch in a non box switch. I would assume the clickbar is the same.
Post by: fer.real on Mon, 08 October 2018, 18:56:03
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.
I know you can't use the springs from a box switch in a non box switch. I would assume the clickbar is the same.
Yes, I mangled that. Thanks for correcting me. I meant to say Speed Navy.
Speed navies actuate at 1.1mm, which is too early for me. If the Pro light green used a clickbar, I was hoping to use the spring and click bar from a speed navy, because the pro green has a similar travel and actuation distance.
Unfortunately, I don't think Kailh makes switches with a click bar outside of the box and speed lines.
Post by: jizzaztartist on Wed, 10 October 2018, 13:57:10
These things are straight garbo :))
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 10 October 2018, 14:51:38
My friend bought some "new" Jade switches and watching his face when a spare GMK key cracked during the first installation was priceless.Seriously how are people doing this? I have dozens of gmk caps on jades and novelias for several days now, and still none of them have cracks. I'm doing a long term test because they may develop later, but even on old navys and whites I never had caps crack when they were first put on. It seems to happen after time.
These things are straight garbo :))
Post by: reavertm on Wed, 10 October 2018, 15:35:58
No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).
Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.
Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.
For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.
'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 10 October 2018, 15:56:36
In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).
Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.
Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.
For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.
'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.
Post by: KHAANNN on Thu, 11 October 2018, 07:06:25
But I see now that new ones suck too
So a TL;DR: We file both X/Y axises now?
Post by: killyou on Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:03:31
Post by: Starius on Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:29:34
When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).
That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit. I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible. One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing.
In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches! They feel great! If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore. But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though.
As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock. And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all. Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more.
By the way, I've been using Tealios on my Tokyo60 since I got it. They are quite nice, aren't they?
Post by: TunnaTown on Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:52:23
That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit. I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible. One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing.
It is. Some people just can't be excellent to others.
In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches! They feel great! If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore. But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though.
You hit the nail right on its head. The BOX switches were game changers. They were/are loved for their feels and rightfully so. It's just those pesky nubs....
Post by: Rumblehotep on Thu, 11 October 2018, 12:10:24
As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock. And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all. Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more.It's a hard truth to learn but this is my feeling as well. Still have a couple boards left to un-box but damned if I'm going to ruin more than one expensive keyset.
I love box navies so much though that I'm just going to keep that board and use stock filco caps which I have several bags of by now.
Post by: ideus on Fri, 12 October 2018, 11:49:39
Post by: LevelSteam on Sat, 20 October 2018, 14:31:33
[attach=1]
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.
Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
Post by: WheresTheSNES on Sat, 20 October 2018, 15:16:49
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.
Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
That sucks. I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika. Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.
Post by: portbaron on Sat, 20 October 2018, 15:29:35
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.Yes.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.
Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
Post by: LevelSteam on Sat, 20 October 2018, 19:18:15
That sucks. I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika. Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.
It should be ok. I've used Zeal/Gateron switches with GMK caps before and never had a problem, and like I mentioned the Zeal Tealios were within spec when I measured them. It seems more like a Maxkey problem in my case so I wouldn't worry about it. Plus it wasn't every key either, so my guess is that there was some variation in the stems.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 20 October 2018, 19:30:01
Post by: upintheclouds on Wed, 31 October 2018, 14:52:51
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?
I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 31 October 2018, 14:58:01
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?
I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.
Day 15 I think now. Still absolutely no signs of stress:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/166?u=pixelpusher
Post by: lutchbu on Wed, 31 October 2018, 18:51:55
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.
(https://imgur.com/kggaoO9.jpg)
IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0)
I thought this might be of interest to some of you.
Post by: Starius on Wed, 31 October 2018, 19:41:12
Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.Show Image(https://imgur.com/kggaoO9.jpg)
IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0)
I thought this might be of interest to some of you.
Thanks for sharing that here.
I am definitely interested!
Post by: BigBlackThock on Sat, 03 November 2018, 20:56:13
Post by: Zuology on Sat, 03 November 2018, 21:13:31
Post by: blakstealth on Sat, 03 November 2018, 22:37:17
Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.like the guy above? :)
Post by: nerium on Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:11:49
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:25:29
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)
Testing them out for the next week, actually. Just put them in my m60. I’ll report back soon
Post by: nerium on Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:27:19
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)
Testing them out for the next week, actually. Just put them in my m60. I’ll report back soon
Awesome - thanks!!
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 29 November 2018, 13:40:39
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/176?u=pixelpusher
Post by: portbaron on Thu, 29 November 2018, 16:55:27
I've had almost 2 dozen assorted gmk caps on retooled jades and novelias and a hako clear from novelkeys for 5 weeks now, with no signs of stress marks (see below). Put them on zealios and zilents today and they still hold.
Also I've had an epbt set on a 65g novelia TKL board for 3 weeks (used daily for 2 of those) with no damage, still very tight if swapped to zealios. Thick pbt doesn't seem to care at all.
My one Maxkey test keycap has a stress mark (see below) on the inside and outside, which it got as soon as I put it on last month and doesn't seem to be getting any bigger.
I've had SA hyperfuse on original box navies for 4 months. I did find 1 key out of the 10 I pulled with a light stress mark on the inside of the stem (can't be seen on the outside). Still fits on zealios without feeling overly loose though. But it's there.
Interestingly, when I pulled a handful of extra zealios and zilents to test them with, I found one zilent that seemed to have a looser stem than all the others. Any keycap I put on, including Leopold PBT and other GMKs that have never touched a box switch, flew off easily. So not all mx switches are the same either and it's best to test a keycap on several different ones before a conclusion is made.
I'm going to keep these going and see where they're at in another month or two. At this point I'd say the retooled boxes aren't bad, with no visible damage to GMKs. Swapped caps are only very slightly looser than GMKs of the same sets which were never on box switches when swapped to zealios, and 'flying caps' were not an issue unlike with original box switches. Having said that, I think there is still a very small difference. IMO it is insignificant because the caps still work without flying off when swapped, but if you don't even want to deal with that, that's a fair decision as well. I personally am not going to worry about it. Definitely better than original version box switches.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 05 December 2018, 01:00:04
So Novelias so far are fine?
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 05 December 2018, 18:35:22
Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.So far so good.
So Novelias so far are fine?
Post by: att1cus on Fri, 07 December 2018, 08:40:43
I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.
Weird.
Post by: reavertm on Tue, 18 December 2018, 22:18:22
Those are nice 'vintage' thin ABS keycaps. They sit comfortably on Aristotle MX clicky clones from the same keyboard.
However, my (received a couple of months ago) 'Aliexpress' dual-shot PBT backlit keycaps also sit comfortably on retooled Kailh Box. No cracking or stress marks (after months of testing).
Those keycaps also sit comfortably (not too loose at all) on those Aristotles strangely enough but that's to be expected I guess.
Chinese conspiracy? Kaihua producing oversized Box stems to fit well on cheap Chinese keycaps (with safer margins for oversized stems), but utterly destroy expensive 'Western' tight-margin-produced tech? :P
Post by: PoochZag on Wed, 19 December 2018, 02:24:42
I reported earlier that those recently retooled Kailh Box (Hako Violet in my case) immediately crack my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on insertion.
Those are nice 'vintage' thin ABS keycaps. They sit comfortably on Aristotle MX clicky clones from the same keyboard.
However, my (received a couple of months ago) 'Aliexpress' dual-shot PBT backlit keycaps also sit comfortably on retooled Kailh Box. No cracking or stress marks (after months of testing).
Those keycaps also sit comfortably (not too loose at all) on those Aristotles strangely enough but that's to be expected I guess.
Chinese conspiracy? Kaihua producing oversized Box stems to fit well on cheap Chinese keycaps (with safer margins for oversized stems), but utterly destroy expensive 'Western' tight-margin-produced tech? :P
It's been demonstrated many times at this point that PBT seems to be much more resilient than ABS, and doesn't have an issue with cracking on BOX switches that ABS does
Post by: phatty on Wed, 19 December 2018, 05:41:26
Post by: romevi on Wed, 19 December 2018, 10:10:52
Post by: kgolden on Sun, 23 December 2018, 17:31:30
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 23 December 2018, 18:50:11
Post by: kgolden on Sun, 23 December 2018, 20:17:33
Do your own testing, to be safe. BOX Black switches are pretty cheap. Get a set of 5 [retooled] switches or some low number, put a couple of your PBT keycaps on them and see how the fit is, and whether there are any signs of stress. There’s significant variance in keycap stem fit from set to set for different brands, materials, profiles, ages/batches, etc.
Hmm that much variation in switches huh?.. okay thanks for the input.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 23 December 2018, 20:28:28
Post by: Photoelectric on Mon, 24 December 2018, 10:44:47
I think it's more the variation in the "female" side in the keycap stems. Not to mention material, thickness, etc.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Given the same exact switch, some keycaps till sit more tightly, some loosely. Internal stem shape on keycaps differs as well, and some are extra grippy / click onto stems with notches (for example older SP DSA sets that hold on super tightly to Cherry MX Clear stems in particular). If your PBT set is of the tighter fit variety, it might have trouble with BOX switches.
Post by: kgolden on Mon, 24 December 2018, 11:28:09
Post by: Darknight00z on Sat, 23 February 2019, 17:10:02
Post by: mta on Sun, 03 March 2019, 17:14:26
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 03 March 2019, 17:19:17
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 03 March 2019, 23:23:01
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.
Post by: Photoelectric on Mon, 04 March 2019, 00:37:23
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.
Yeah, get a magnifying glass and look at the stem closely. New vs. Old photos here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771
Post by: ideus on Mon, 04 March 2019, 12:41:36
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.
Yeah, get a magnifying glass and look at the stem closely. New vs. Old photos here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771)
Wow, that is awesome, thank you Mr. Photo
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 05 March 2019, 07:57:47
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Post by: zslane on Tue, 05 March 2019, 12:05:43
Quote
R.I.P my DSA Legacy Rush set :mad: :mad: :mad:
zealio v2 here we come
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 17 March 2019, 09:45:52
There's only one 2mm diamond file from the Aliexpress kit fit for the job, it's surface area is flat, others are more curved - as mentioned in the comments here, getting rid of the nubs gets the job done, while you are filing the nubs, the feedback is very grindy, after the nubs are gone, the file runs smoothly - you have to push it as hard as you can, while being very steady
The process is really taxing, it's heavy on the fingers, when I first started, I was filing my thumb's nail too, currently got the hang of it tho
The process makes you philosophically dig deep into life, makes you question your choices etc. - If anyone is considering it, it might be best to wait for a truly fixed release of the switches
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 17 March 2019, 11:44:32
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Sun, 17 March 2019, 12:31:34
Looks like it’s happening soon.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Starius on Sun, 17 March 2019, 12:52:02
Dunno about the stemshaver, but you might want to follow the development of “The Cruciformer”: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/ic-the-cruciformer-a-tool-for-fixing-mx-stems/4653
Looks like it’s happening soon.
There is also this project, though I don't know much about it myself.
https://antoniotrkdz.github.io/nubrist/ (https://antoniotrkdz.github.io/nubrist/)
I hope all of these potential solutions get made, I'd like to try them all.
Post by: grizzly_teddy on Mon, 18 March 2019, 01:52:09
Post by: KHAANNN on Mon, 18 March 2019, 02:11:41
$19 shipped over Aliexpress would be ideal, $29 shipped would be the max. I would do
The Cruciformer one seems better priced, for such a high profit margin, I believe the nubrist one needed to enter the market the moment we experienced the issue, if that happened, it might've been deserving of such an extreme profit attempt (Edit: The Cruciformer actually seems well priced, for the design etc. - but the nubrist one was offensive)
We also don't know how well they work yet, from my experience, the tips really need to be extremely sharp for it to be effective, the inner part could use some grain, I really doubt the effectiveness of these tools, but I guess we'll see soon
Post by: ReverbSlush on Mon, 18 March 2019, 11:21:28
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 18 March 2019, 12:38:48
Post by: giammin on Tue, 19 March 2019, 08:47:03
I don't want to order a tool that'll do less than 1,000 perfect cuts.
i just want a cheap tool to cut my 70 box navy and dont want to bother about this kind of problems anymore
Post by: ideus on Tue, 19 March 2019, 11:28:45
I don't want to order a tool that'll do less than 1,000 perfect cuts.
i just want a cheap tool to cut my 70 box navy and dont want to bother about this kind of problems anymore
I don't need a tool to rework all the switches in existence. Just what I have on hand.
Post by: Sintpinty on Tue, 19 March 2019, 14:37:53
This is unacceptable, considering you are a paying customer. I see it's on aliexpress. Its not reliable.
Post by: Starius on Wed, 17 April 2019, 21:26:01
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Wed, 17 April 2019, 23:06:56
Just found out that the buy for the "Cruciformer" tool is going on right now.... I'm gonna give it a try. I need something, and I guess I'm getting a bit tired of waiting for other options.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
I already ordered The Cruciformer a few days ago, but forgot to notify this thread. Thanks Starius!
I hope the tool ends up being great. :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Tue, 23 April 2019, 22:53:23
Their new mold still cracks keycaps.
Post by: sevenseacat on Tue, 23 April 2019, 23:03:15
Post by: Starius on Wed, 24 April 2019, 08:33:13
Has there been evidence of this? I don't think I've seen any pictures or anything of retooled switches doing damage
I've not seen any evidence that the retooled switches have caused any damage either.
Though, that being said, I still do want to run a stem shaving tool over my retooled box switches before using them just for my own piece of mind.
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Wed, 24 April 2019, 08:36:24
Sprit is more honest than kaihl.
Post by: ptiede on Wed, 24 April 2019, 10:06:47
You keep saying that sprit is not great, buy look at kaihl. They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
Sprit is more honest than kaihl.
I don't think they damaged an infinite number of keycaps... And sprit has been hugely unreliable in the past and more recently as well.
P.S. Not saying kaihl doesn't have a lot of blame here, but they didn't actively scam anyone, unlike sprit. I don't think they knew that old box switches would cause some keycaps to crack.
Post by: Baron on Wed, 24 April 2019, 12:28:26
They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
what do you expect them to do about it?
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Wed, 24 April 2019, 14:46:49
They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
what do you expect them to do about it?
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Post by: BlindAssassin111 on Wed, 24 April 2019, 15:14:06
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
Post by: thearctican on Wed, 24 April 2019, 16:30:45
I lost two GMK sets to the rev1 stems. I don't expect compensation or anything of the like because I'm the one who put the caps on a brand new switch. Sucks, but to your point Kailh had the specs published and I see it as a lack of research on my part.Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: thearctican on Thu, 25 April 2019, 17:40:15
But we aren't exactly consumers to Kailh, are we? Kailh's direct customers are OEMs and parts distributors. It's not a usual thing that people buy loose switches.This is very depressing. I'm not sure if I want to be among both of you anymore. I don't want to have to deal with losers.
Wow taking it personal is uncalled for, must have a hard time accepting that a company doesn't give handouts for doing nothing wrong. Have a nice day, if that is at all possible.
Seeing a consumer that accept to be scammed is depressing. Please go away!
Imagine a scenario: you have a car that takes a certain size tire. Michelin releases a tire that has features you want and is all around better than your tire. The tire mounts and fits fine, but the outer diameter is too big and it damages your wheel well.
What do you do?
A. Blame Michelin for making a desirable tire that damaged your car
B. Blame your car manufacurer for not having bigger wheel wells
C. Accept that you bought the tire while ignoring the /XX dimension
It's C. This is an enthusiast community. If we weren't interested in trying new things and accepting that some things don't work out sometimes then we'd all be typing on chicklet keyboards and none of us would be here.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: cherrymxsilent@gmail.com on Thu, 25 April 2019, 18:20:22
Post by: jrfhoutx on Thu, 25 April 2019, 20:48:39
LOL what? Progress has nothing to do with a five stem that breaks keycaps. That's just a mistake.
Bottom line is that the responsibility to ensure compatibility lies with the consumer.
Kailh, like Gateron and Cherry and everyone else, makes a product; they publish the data and specs for the product, they are not obligated to ensure that it will be compatible with your stuff. It's the consumer's responsibility to check compatibility.
The mistake wasn't Kailh's, the mistake was everyone who bought them not doing their due diligence and checking the specs
Post by: Glod on Fri, 26 April 2019, 00:42:48
Honestly there is a side of me that wants to defend them because I do like speed golds (hands down my favorite click switch), speed heavy orange, and pro purple's. All of which don't damage switches. But the other side of me is still pissed many months later at the amount of money I spent on box switches and how it damaged my OG G81 cherry set, GMK hyperfuse, and GMK Nautilus to the point where they are still usable thankfullly but if you flip the keyboard (non box) upside down a few keys fall off. I have yet to buy another box switch and I never will.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Post by: Darknight00z on Fri, 26 April 2019, 11:19:57
Post by: thearctican on Fri, 26 April 2019, 11:26:17
Can we get some mods here and shut this toxic guy down? He is just being rude, without anything constructive to give.
If you feel he's violating community guidelines then I'd encourage you to use the 'report to moderator' button.
Post by: giammin on Mon, 29 April 2019, 05:23:59
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
your reasoning is acceptable
but then why did they make a new version?
Post by: ideus on Mon, 29 April 2019, 07:28:52
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
your reasoning is acceptable
but then why did they make a new version?
Kailh was an OEM supplier only, at some point. By then, taking decisions based only on its corporate customers was the way to go. However, when they began selling switches in the after market of KB enthusiast the decisions that were sound before, where not acceptable anymore.
I am partial to the point of view that we as final consumers are solely responsible for mating switches and keycaps, because any producer is responsible of its own designs adhering to industry acceptable guidelines, otherwise, they should make explicit a declaimer that their products may damage the KB where they might be installed on. Something like cigarettes and alcohol. "The use of this product is the responsibility of the consumer, only"
Post by: jrfhoutx on Mon, 29 April 2019, 10:18:53
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
your reasoning is acceptable
but then why did they make a new version?
Because the community complained loudly enough about it, and had also become a large enough customer base that they could not be ignored
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sat, 13 July 2019, 21:14:37
I am currently testing BOX Browns in my switch-testing keyboard.
They are the new retooled Browns, ordered in May of this year.
I put some cheap Tai Hao ABS double-shots on them (I was well aware of the dangers, so kept expensive keycaps away from them), and it was fine at first. Typing on the BOX Browns is pleasant.
But when I came to remove them (had to test other switches), I heard a <CRACK> upon pulling the first key (the 'Q' key).
Lo-and-behold, there is a hairline fracture running nearly the full length of the OEM-profile keycap stem.
I've since placed the BOX Browns and these keycaps back on the testing keyboard. No cracking noises going on, and the 'Q' key still fits. But I know the stem is damaged.
Now, you might argue that I removed the keycap improperly. But I used a standard wire puller, and the same methods I've always used. This is the first time I've ever seen damage to any of my keycaps. There hasn't been any incidents before.
So use BOX switches with extreme caution. I'm thinking of ordering some extremely cheap PBT doubleshots as sacrifical keys for the BOX Browns, since I like them otherwise.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 13 July 2019, 22:33:24
I can confirm that BOX switches are still cracking keycaps.
I am currently testing BOX Browns in my switch-testing keyboard.
They are the new retooled Browns, ordered in May of this year.
I put some cheap Tai Hao ABS double-shots on them (I was well aware of the dangers, so kept expensive keycaps away from them), and it was fine at first. Typing on the BOX Browns is pleasant.
But when I came to remove them (had to test other switches), I heard a <CRACK> upon pulling the first key (the 'Q' key).
Lo-and-behold, there is a hairline fracture running nearly the full length of the OEM-profile keycap stem.
I've since placed the BOX Browns and these keycaps back on the testing keyboard. No cracking noises going on, and the 'Q' key still fits. But I know the stem is damaged.
Now, you might argue that I removed the keycap improperly. But I used a standard wire puller, and the same methods I've always used. This is the first time I've ever seen damage to any of my keycaps. There hasn't been any incidents before.
So use BOX switches with extreme caution. I'm thinking of ordering some extremely cheap PBT doubleshots as sacrifical keys for the BOX Browns, since I like them otherwise.
interesting. I tested 6 different retooled box switches in a hotswap board, 2 weeks apiece, and never had a crack. Used GMK caps. I tested box blacks, box jade, box red, box white, box pale blue, and box pink.
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sat, 13 July 2019, 23:28:00
It may simply be a result of being pulled off the switch at too high an angle [although I didn't think so at the time]. Maybe the filmsy keycap material just cracked.
Although, I have to say, the BOX switches make keycap removal a more difficult operation. They tend to be tighter. And they are also tighter going in and out of the switch tester, and often have to be removed at an angle. They just don't feel as if they were built to the same spec as other MX switches. My Zealios, for example, enter and exit hotswap plates with ease, and keycaps just snap off without trouble.
With BOX switches, I think the issue is more than just stems that weren't built to spec. The whole mechanism is tighter on keycaps, and the switches themselves fight with the plate mount.
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 14 July 2019, 11:13:22
Since I finally got the Cruciformer tool a week or so ago, I have shaved all my BOX Blacks just to be safe, and I plan to do the same with the BOX Yellows. That said, the Cruciformer tool definitely still shaves off a not-insignificant portion of the switch stems of the retooled variety.
Post by: HungerMechanic on Sun, 14 July 2019, 12:10:33
Post by: SlipperyPeteED on Sun, 14 July 2019, 23:42:06
That said, the Cruciformer tool definitely still shaves off a not-insignificant portion of the switch stems of the retooled variety.
wow this is insane. I really figured that the cruciformer was kinda pointless after the retooling
Post by: jrfhoutx on Mon, 15 July 2019, 06:55:26
I have retooled BOX Blacks and BOX Yellows, but I haven't put them on a board yet.
Since I finally got the Cruciformer tool a week or so ago, I have shaved all my BOX Blacks just to be safe, and I plan to do the same with the BOX Yellows. That said, the Cruciformer tool definitely still shaves off a not-insignificant portion of the switch stems of the retooled variety.
Where did you buy the retooled box switches from?
Post by: Waterrmelonn on Tue, 20 August 2019, 07:13:54
Post by: thearctican on Tue, 20 August 2019, 18:41:22
How are Enjoypbt sets on retooled box switches? I have a set of them coming in and want to put them on box reds, have there been any problems with cracking of stems?They're fine. I used some ePBT caps on BOX Pinks and they have no fitment issues on other switches. POM caps fit and transfer fine, too. The only ones I havent installed are GMK caps but I have switches I like better anyway.
Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: Benitone on Sat, 31 August 2019, 04:10:02
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Post by: Sup on Sun, 01 September 2019, 08:55:52
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
Post by: Benitone on Sun, 01 September 2019, 10:19:36
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
Post by: hideyourholes on Mon, 02 September 2019, 14:20:45
Edit: Nvm didn't realize he was still selling on his website via "pre-order". Picked one up just now.
Post by: mkarlsson on Wed, 04 September 2019, 12:47:16
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
I have retooled switches and at least gmk and sp are not damaged by those. What keycaps are you using?
Post by: Benitone on Wed, 04 September 2019, 16:51:55
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
I have retooled switches and at least gmk and sp are not damaged by those. What keycaps are you using?
So you didn't read the posts about the gmk keycaps damaged by retooled kailh?
Post by: mkarlsson on Wed, 04 September 2019, 17:15:47
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
I have retooled switches and at least gmk and sp are not damaged by those. What keycaps are you using?
So you didn't read the posts about the gmk keycaps damaged by retooled kailh?
No, I did not
Post by: ideus on Thu, 05 September 2019, 10:50:29
Post by: HungerMechanic on Thu, 05 September 2019, 14:03:56
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer
Post by: ideus on Thu, 05 September 2019, 15:10:33
I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Thu, 05 September 2019, 16:57:11
I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Which would still potentially break your keycaps, if they are BOX.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ideus on Thu, 05 September 2019, 21:31:42
No more boxes for me. It would be insane to risk valuable key caps just to try some switches no matter how good they might be. Now I will investigate the new switch offering and choose which ones my upcoming builds may use. I'd say that we all should let this sad thing of box switches behind and move forward and try other options.I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Which would still potentially break your keycaps, if they are BOX.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Edit: Think twice, do we really want to do Kailh's job in fixing its issues?
I paid for the switches, period; but I will not ruin any key cap of mine. I am not Kailh's engineering, nor quality control department.
Post by: hideyourholes on Fri, 06 September 2019, 13:58:32
Post by: Kavik on Fri, 17 July 2020, 20:07:48
Has anyone else used the Cruciformer? I have some retooled BOX Yellows (1.30mm), and, after using the Cruciformer on them, keycaps are rather loose on them - so loose that a few of them wiggle, and also fall off if upside down. I've tried with GMK, ePBT, DSA, Maxkey SA, and Taihao; it varies by switch a bit, but the only one that seems really secure is the SA keycap. It may have been better to keep the stems stock. Does anyone else have a report on the Cruciformer?
Post by: Shutter_Shock on Sun, 19 July 2020, 19:35:17
Anyone else having problems with retooled BOX switches?
More importantly: does ABS have any elasticity that might help mild stretching spring back? Or do I just have to live with it? I know that I'm relatively lucky to only have mild stretching rather than the cracking that others experienced earlier.
Post by: Starius on Mon, 20 July 2020, 08:13:09
Necro-post.
Has anyone else used the Cruciformer? I have some retooled BOX Yellows (1.30mm), and, after using the Cruciformer on them, keycaps are rather loose on them - so loose that a few of them wiggle, and also fall off if upside down. I've tried with GMK, ePBT, DSA, Maxkey SA, and Taihao; it varies by switch a bit, but the only one that seems really secure is the SA keycap. It may have been better to keep the stems stock. Does anyone else have a report on the Cruciformer?
I have a Cruciformer, but I’m embarrassed to admit that I still haven’t gotten around to shave my supply of box switches. But in light of your experience, I think I will do some careful testing on these switches when I get around to it now. Did you just do one “pass” per switch?
Post by: Kavik on Mon, 20 July 2020, 13:03:50
Necro-post.
Has anyone else used the Cruciformer? I have some retooled BOX Yellows (1.30mm), and, after using the Cruciformer on them, keycaps are rather loose on them - so loose that a few of them wiggle, and also fall off if upside down. I've tried with GMK, ePBT, DSA, Maxkey SA, and Taihao; it varies by switch a bit, but the only one that seems really secure is the SA keycap. It may have been better to keep the stems stock. Does anyone else have a report on the Cruciformer?
I have a Cruciformer, but I’m embarrassed to admit that I still haven’t gotten around to shave my supply of box switches. But in light of your experience, I think I will do some careful testing on these switches when I get around to it now. Did you just do one “pass” per switch?
If I'm not mistaken, the cruciformer is narrower in X axis than it is in the Y axis. I did an initial cut to shave the stem (tight fit) and then I rotated the cruciformer 90 degrees and pressed it in again (loose fit) to remove the shavings left behind by the first pass.
I feel stupid for not test fitting a keycap on one or two before cutting the entire batch. I'm curious to know your results when you get around to it.
Post by: shallot on Mon, 27 July 2020, 06:19:59
Is anyone else still having this problem? I just pulled my GMK Metropolis caps off of retooled BOX whites, and every keycap that was on the BOX whites is loose now on my non-BOX switches. There isn't any cracking that I can see, but they're all noticeably loose. One keycap came off when I accidentally rubbed it during the upstroke on a neighboring key. The BOX whites are from Novelkeys and were purchased after the announcement that all Novelkeys inventory had been changed to retooled BOX switches. The keycaps were on the switches for about 7 months. It's extra upsetting because I barely even used the board; it was mostly just on display in my collection.
Anyone else having problems with retooled BOX switches?
More importantly: does ABS have any elasticity that might help mild stretching spring back? Or do I just have to live with it? I know that I'm relatively lucky to only have mild stretching rather than the cracking that others experienced earlier.
I'm taking SA Yuri off my retooled BOX Jades today after about a week - remembered to compare them to fresh caps on actual MX switches and the (uneven) loosening is obvious already. I'm not sure if this is to be expected (I mostly have alps boards, so I'm not sure if they'd also loosen like this on an MX board), or whether it would get any worse over time, but I don't really want to take chances with expensive caps.
Post by: Kavik on Wed, 29 July 2020, 21:40:07
Is anyone else still having this problem? I just pulled my GMK Metropolis caps off of retooled BOX whites, and every keycap that was on the BOX whites is loose now on my non-BOX switches. There isn't any cracking that I can see, but they're all noticeably loose. One keycap came off when I accidentally rubbed it during the upstroke on a neighboring key. The BOX whites are from Novelkeys and were purchased after the announcement that all Novelkeys inventory had been changed to retooled BOX switches. The keycaps were on the switches for about 7 months. It's extra upsetting because I barely even used the board; it was mostly just on display in my collection.
Anyone else having problems with retooled BOX switches?
More importantly: does ABS have any elasticity that might help mild stretching spring back? Or do I just have to live with it? I know that I'm relatively lucky to only have mild stretching rather than the cracking that others experienced earlier.
I'm taking SA Yuri off my retooled BOX Jades today after about a week - remembered to compare them to fresh caps on actual MX switches and the (uneven) loosening is obvious already. I'm not sure if this is to be expected (I mostly have alps boards, so I'm not sure if they'd also loosen like this on an MX board), or whether it would get any worse over time, but I don't really want to take chances with expensive caps.
I didn't even attempt putting keycaps on these BOX switches until I'd cut them with the cruciformer (hence my necro-post), but I did accidentally crack a GMK spacebar on a cut BOX stem of a loose switch when I accidentally pushed it on rotated 90 degrees from normal (so the x axis of the switch was in the y axis of the keycap). Oops.
I ended up putting ePBT Grayscale on my cut BOX switches, and they fit much better than GMK did.