Author Topic: keyboard layout for left-handed?  (Read 3966 times)

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Offline HighKey

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keyboard layout for left-handed?
« on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 15:18:06 »
I wonder if it would be feasible to build a keyboard layout for left-handed user? I searched on the forum and found this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87179.msg2346814#msg2346814
and I am confused, this is not what I understand by left-handed  :(

Purpose of the keyboard should be optimized for programming, not for typing.

Here are my thoughts on this:

There are layouts with the Numpad on the left, or the arrow keys on the left. These layouts are still designed for right-handed users, though.

DWORAK left is a layout for left-handed use, though DWORAK is terrible for programming. To fix this, there is a DWORAK programmer but there is no DWORAK programmer left  :mad:

I never gave DWORAK a try but personally I think it is outdated as it completely ignores autocompletion and text macros hence completely out of line with modern usage. Plus, DWORAK is optimized for english language only and DWORAK programmer for most typical programming languages.

Are there other layouts I am not aware of? Has similar work already been done?

My idea is to completely mirror QWERTY layout to have QWERT on my right hand and YUIOP on my left. 99.9999% of layouts are not completely symmetric (even splitted keyboards), so the only option when using existing parts is a completely symmetric keyboard, like this one:



I never build a custom keyboard before and I do not completely understand the importance of an asymetric layout.  Are there any draw-backs with symetric layouts?

What are your thoughts on how a left handed keyboard layout should be designed?

Please do not pollute this thread with "I am left-handed, too" posts and alike, thank you.

Offline rxc92

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 26 February 2020, 17:26:36 »
Hard to comment on those exact needs, but it's a little annoying that you've apparently spent time researching alternate layouts yet still can't spell it correctly. It's Dvorak, with a V, first letter capital as it's named after a person. 
Do your research on ergonomics and the uses of your keyboard. Tenting is very common, as is using thumb clusters, both of which are present in the picture you linked of a prebuilt Ergodox EZ. You have to build an actual Ergodox, while the EZ is prebuilt and can be bought from here: https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/customize 
It's also a bit idiotic to admit to not having tried (and clearly not having researched) a greatly superior alternate layout and then claim that it's 'terrible for programming' or 'completely out of line with modern usage', or complain about not being optimized for English while QWERTY was not optimized for any language.
 
Also, Dvorak LH is NOT for left-handed people. It's for people typing with ONLY their left hand, which you should know from reading anything about it. Standard Dvorak has about a 2% right hand preference (48-52) compared to QWERTY which has about a 5% left hand preference. There are plenty of ergonomic layouts that you are not aware of, but obviously very few of them are designed for lefties specifically. ARENSITO looks pretty decent, for one, and you can program it into your keyboard. 
   
And next time if you want suggestions, don't make a thread full of your own assumptions. Just ask for the suggestions.

Offline HighKey

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 14:39:47 »
thank you for your reply. I am a new member, please have mercy. The time I spend researching I am confronted with lots of concepts I am completely unfamiliar with. My previous post was meant to summarize my current understandings and knowledge on the topic. As you can see, it is merely superficial, incomplete and based on assumptions rather than experience. I kindly ask you to give me directions, accordingly. I do not like to be a nuisance, which is the main motivation spending time on research before asking a stupid question.


The problem I am trying to solve is going from this:



to this:



I am currently not using a splitted keyboard but it helps visualizing the idea. I am alternating between touch typing using both hands and single handed + mouse. As you can see, a right hand preference would be preferred. This will probably be disadvantageous for touch typing. ARENSITO doesn't play well for this scenario. My initial intent was not to make my own build but rather searching for a buy button on amazon, so I went a lot back and forth before finally posting here.  :-[

This idea is entirely made up by myself, I have not found any opinion on this or if similar has been attempted before. I think this layout does not exist, but I think it would be worth relearning this layout. I also don't know if this is the best approach. I am expecting (hoping) to reach the same typing speed from a mirrored QWERTY after some time.

I think all I need to do this is a programmable ortholinear keyboard. I also discovered that it is fairly common to make up your own layout. Looking into all these layouts are giving me real headache. I'd really just start on a mirrored QWERTY, because I know it, and make my mods on it afterwards.

Ergonomics surely are another very important section to take into consideration, on which I also do not have much practical experience with. Although very much appreciated, I believe this is one step ahead of this.

P.S., I did research Dvorak, and my opinion on this is based on a selection of what others wrote and additionally fits my preconception (although I took a rather extreme standpoint). I think it is rather reasonable to mention I don't have any practical experience when making such statement.
« Last Edit: Fri, 28 February 2020, 15:02:56 by HighKey »

Offline rxc92

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 14:50:16 »
Hmm, if the combinations are extremely important, then it would be fine to just use layers, no? You can easily set up an alternate layout with QMK that lets you use, say, Fn+/ for Undo, Fn+. for Copy, etc., or any other random switch you'd like. 
Then you wouldn't have to bother with relearning a layout or setting up a custom layout on each new computer, as it'd be built into your keyboard. 
 
Ergodox EZ supports QMK, as do most custom PCBs these days. I'd recommend you get one of those and then reprogram it so all the function keys are within easy reach of your right hand.

Offline HighKey

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 18:42:01 »
I'm very possessive on my key bindings. Loosing those would feel like switching from touch typing back to two finger typing. Maybe layers are the solution. I still don't understand how navigation between 16 layers work. The thing is, and this is actually the root source of my problem, that my stupid OS does not allow to globally assign key maps. Changing key bindings require every single application to be manually configured. Some software is poorly implemented, some software is highly customizable, and some software does not allow you to change any binding at all.

Therefore, the exact key codes must be send to the OS, meaning Ctrl key + letter in this case. I don't know if this works with your suggestion. After watching their marketing videos, everything seems possible with an Ergodox EZ. I would then hold the Ctrl key to toggle from default to layer 2, on which I then have all above listed letters within reach of my fingers. Is this a possibility on QMK?

Offline HighKey

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 18:56:52 »
I cannot use Ctrl to toggle into layer 2 but using a mouse is slow, so I don't need to toggle. I can switch to layer 2 and remain there as long as I am using the mouse.

Offline rxc92

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 28 February 2020, 20:34:42 »
The swapping of layers is not an OS issue, it's directly coded into your keyboard, meaning it will send different key signals based on the layer you're on. So don't worry about your OS. 
You need a QMK keyboard, and your current one doesn't seem to have it. Take a look here at the default Ergodox-EZ layout: https://config.qmk.fm/#/ergodox_ez/LAYOUT_ergodox 
It looks strange at first, but you should understand it quickly; click on the "Keycodes reference" and look up the different keys. Layers are built into each key, so you can, for instance, combine a layer toggle, TG (changes layer only when held down) with another key that does Ctrl+C or V or whatever. Or, you can use TO, which changes the layer to the specified one until changed back. 
 
My suggestion is that you keep the default 2nd layer for whatever it is, then add a 3rd layer for the shortcuts you intend to use, on whichever keys you want. There are dedicated copy/paste keys in the App, Media and Mouse tab that you can use.

Offline HighKey

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 04:17:20 »


That's my right handed layer. Still unsure if I swap 'B' and 'N'.
Not sure if I missed something important. Do you like it?

Offline rxc92

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 30 March 2020, 23:32:00 »
It's QWERTY, so it's trash.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 31 March 2020, 00:05:36 »
So, this is about command shortcuts ...

How about instead of altering the layout of the letters, swap Control and Alt?
Then you would be able to press Control-X/C/V with your right thumb on Control while being able to reach the letters with your fingers?

Macs have a Command key in that position for Command-X/C/V. Ask a left-handed Mac user how he does it!

Offline HighKey

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Re: keyboard layout for left-handed?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 31 March 2020, 06:47:33 »
> Then you would be able to press Control-X/C/V with your right thumb on Control while being able to reach the letters with your fingers?

Then my right hand would rest on the left side of the keyboard, right? It somehow doesn't feel comfortable, I prefer to rest on home row.

I couldn't reach the letters with my right hand without loosing track of home row. This is why all the letters are swapped to come in reach of the right hand.

Right now I have to look at the key caps most of the time on this layer  :( I wonder how long it'll take to learn this layer.
But it is at least more comfortable than alternating my left hand between mouse and keyboard for X/C/V, etc, like I did before.

Please note my reasoning for choosing QWERTY. This is about using keyboard + mouse combo for left handers. The command shortcuts cannot be changed system wide due to OS design.
And from the picture I posted above, one can get the impression that command shortcuts have been designed with QWERTY in mind. (this is a personal observation, don't know if it is true).

There is no doubt that command shortcuts should always be designed with the layout in mind, NOT the other way around. For technical reason, I am forthed to do that  :'(

From what I have seen, other layouts have the same problem. So my solution can be applied to other layouts as well. Also you could share your solution to this problem. For example, how to people reach for Ctrl + c with their left hand in Dvorak?