The search of the right TKL keyboard. Update sept. 19th

[PrinsPils]

Im currently using a Blackwidow Tournament, with Cherry MX Blue. But im looking around to buy a new keyboard despit im still happy with the keyboard.

I prefer an alternate layout wereby ALT and CTRL are bigger than the windows key, but these layouts arent very popular or really expensive KMAC2. So im forced to look at a normal layout keyboard.
In my search i found the Ducky Shine TKL 3 and the KUL ES87, these are looking good, have good reviews and more affordable. WASD keyboard is really expensive to get in Europe.
Unfortunatly there are no shops in the area to try them out and i need to order them from abroad and cant test them before i order them.

Will it be a noticable improvement for me to buy one of these keyboards or should i stick with my Razer and buy better keycaps? because people say PBT keycaps are nicer to use than the stock ones (ABS)

[ileben]

It's impossible to objectively say, if something will feel like an improvement to you, personally. Generally, from my experience, brands like filco, leopold, ducky feel more "solid", less "hollow", less plasticky and cheap than brands like Razer, Logitech etc. Pure logic tells you that in the world of commercial non-artisan product design, no one can afford using premium materials for extra pieces that decorate the case. Generally, the flashier it looks, the crappier it feels.

However, something that feels cheap to one person, can sometimes feel the best to another person. Some people love thin ABS caps over thick PBT caps, because they perceive it as "faster" and "snappier" (probably due to more vibration feedback from the switch). There are many factors determining the feel: switch type, case construction, stabilizer type, key cap type and there's a subjective preference involved in all of these.

My suggestion to anyone these days is:
- buy a Filco Tenkeyless
- put thick PBT keycaps on
(e.g. http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=62&product_id=108)
- you are set ... for a while

[fishcola]

Will it be a noticable improvement for me to buy one of these keyboards or should i stick with my Razer and buy better keycaps? because people say PBT keycaps are nicer to use than the stock ones (ABS)

"Improvement" can mean a whole lot of things, and chances are we have very different preferences .

I'd choose the KUL, I have a backlit board and don't make use of the lights. *But* I only know that because I bought a backlit board and realized I didn't really need them. A big part of finding an "improved" kb setup is learning by trial-and-error and experience. Unfortunately, this takes more time than we want (since we want to spend our precious $$$ ASAP).

How about this: think about spending ~$60 for that imsto set, or think about spending $120 for a KUL. You'll either have two kbs with different switches and stock keycaps, or a switch you prefer (don't know if you really like blues) with better caps. go from there. hope that helped.

[nuzey]

I would say the Ducky Shine 3 TKL is as good as the KUL. It depends on whether you need backlighting or not. However, I strongly recommend Filco instead. It is a very good keyboard. I own one myself and put a thick PBT keycaps on it using the Vortex and I can tell you that it feels so wonderful while typing on it. I hope you make the right choice

[fishcola]

Only recommended the KUL because they have DIP switches and offer a wide variety of MX switches in case he's curious. Haven't ever owned a Ducky, but they are highly regarded...

[blcksqrrl]

I love my KUL for the most part. I used it for about two weeks before I decided that I need to do something about the keycaps so I ordered some from WASD. Going back to the stock keycaps on it is neigh-on impossible, they just feel bad when compared to the WASD ones. I am unsure about the DIP switches on it; there are eight total but only the first seven do anything, the eighth is reserved for future expansion. Finally, the KUL has issues to wake-up a Mac from sleep. A very specific use-case I know, but it still deserves to be pointed out. These last two 'issues' can be fixed with a firmware update, hopefully that is coming soon.

It's not really a big deal though. As my first TKL and mechanical keyboard, I am beyond happy with it.

[PrinsPils]

Hereby an update.
I had the change to experience a DAS Keyboard 4 professional (greetech blue switches) and the Ducky legend (Cherry mx brown)
Regardless the differences in switches and ignored my personal preference of Cherry mx blue i noticed a big difference between them and my current (Razer blackwidow cherry mx blue) keyboard.

First the DAS Keyboard 4 professional. The keyboard looks good but the keys felt really really cheap and the plastic is really thin. The keys on my own (budget) keyboard felt much more solid. the keyboard built quality is average. besides the nice thick aluminum top plate there is nothing impressive about it. The idea behind the ruler is nice, but it doesnt have any rubber on it and makes the keyboard slide much faster and its made out of cheaper plastic than the rest of the keyboard. A big no for me and not worth the 180 Euro's.

Ducky Legend was next. The keys felt so much better, proper thick plastic and the overal feeling of the keyboard was really nice and solid. A huge difference with the DAS Keyboard. And also cheaper, its 130 Euro's.

This experience brings me to the point where i will buy PBT keycaps for my current keyboard and im sure it will improve the overal feeling of typing. In the meanwhile i will continue look around and see if i can test more different keyboards. Hopefully i can experience the KUL, it looks great.

[Hypersphere]

A nice set of dye-sub PBT caps can markedly enhance the look, feel, and sound of a keyboard.

As for Cherry mx TKLs themselves, I've tried a number of them, including the CM QFS, Ducky Shine II, Filco Majestouch 2, Kul, and WASD. There was something to like about each of these. One thing I appreciated about the WASD was that it could be purchased as a "Barebones" model (no caps), because I was going to put PBT caps on it anyway.

[PrinsPils]

A nice set of dye-sub PBT caps can markedly enhance the look, feel, and sound of a keyboard.

As for Cherry mx TKLs themselves, I've tried a number of them, including the CM QFS, Ducky Shine II, Filco Majestouch 2, Kul, and WASD. There was something to like about each of these. One thing I appreciated about the WASD was that it could be purchased as a "Barebones" model (no caps), because I was going to put PBT caps on it anyway.

What were the pro's and cons of those keyboards in your experience?

[saturnotaku]

I would consider buying a switch tester to at least get a baseline idea of which ones you prefer, or even if you should get a different switch type at all. Who knows, you might even find that blues are your favorite.

I've had all manner of TKL keyboards over the last couple years, from a CMStorm Quickfire Rapid to a KMAC, and each with different switches, ranging from reds to greens, and several Topre models in the form of the Realforce 87U, Happy Hacking Professional 2, and CMStorm Novatouch. Korean customs are nice, but I don't think their asking prices are justified, which probably makes me somewhat of a hypocrite because of what's in the next paragraph...

For typing, and only typing, my favorite is the Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2 Type-S. It's super-expensive, but the layout, switch feel, and sound are all spot on for my usage. The latter is especially key since I have to share a cubicle with a co-worker. Even a standard HHKB was just a bit too loud.

The HHKB is not practical for gaming, or at least for the types of games I play because I rely on the function layer a lot. After using a Microsoft Sidewinder X6 for I can't tell you how many years, I ultimately found that I can't really live without a backlit keyboard. My three top contenders are the WASD CODE, Royal Kludge RC930-87 RGB, and the Razer BlackWidow Tournament Edition Chroma Stealth. Oddly enough, the latter is my favorite. Its switches feel smoother to me than Cherry MX brown. They're slightly less tactile than browns, yet they feel a bit stiffer despite being rated at the same actuation force. I've had no major issues with Synapse; it works great on both my Zotac Zbox "Steam Machine" running Windows 8.1 and my MacBook Pro. I love the RGB LEDs and creating custom profiles for my games where the only keys that are lit up are the ones that I use in any given title.

[Oobly]

If you have some skill with a soldering iron I suggest to get a GON NerD TKL PCB ($60) and acrylic housing ($70) and swap out the switches and stabilisers from your existing board. Then buy a nice set of thick keycaps with WinKeyLess kit option to complete your Korean custom

You'll also have to add diodes (5*20 @ 1.50 each = $7.50) to your order. Total = $137.50 + shipping

If you want bottom case glow and in-switch LED's you need to add resistors and both types of LED's to your order as well.

Total cost without caps will only be a little more than a KUL ES87 or similar TKL board and you'll have a proper Korean custom TKL with the key layout you want.

If you can't solder or are not willing to learn to do it, then the KUL ES87 is a very good option if you don't need backlighting. If you need backlighting look no further than a Ducky Shine 3 TKL.

About keycaps: For me, the weight is more important than the material. Good thick ABS doubleshots like GMK Cherry profile sets or SA profile are the ones I prefer. I like how PBT feels (and have a few sets), but I find the limited colourways possible to be frustrating (you can only dyesub a darker legend colour onto a lighter base keycap colour, so the legends are always darker than the base colour on dyesub caps). Then there's also POM keycaps. My favourite keycap material (denser than all the others and an amazing slick feeling to it), but for me they have to be blank since I don't like the feeling of the lasered or infilled legends (you can't dyesub POM and it's a difficult material to doubleshot).

[Data]

I'm making my own TKL using a Phantom PCB and a custom plate.

Actually I'm making 2 of them; one for me and one for the wife-unit.

[Hypersphere]

A nice set of dye-sub PBT caps can markedly enhance the look, feel, and sound of a keyboard.

As for Cherry mx TKLs themselves, I've tried a number of them, including the CM QFS, Ducky Shine II, Filco Majestouch 2, Kul, and WASD. There was something to like about each of these. One thing I appreciated about the WASD was that it could be purchased as a "Barebones" model (no caps), because I was going to put PBT caps on it anyway.

What were the pro's and cons of those keyboards in your experience?

It has been a while since using Cherry mx TKL boards, and it is difficult to compare, because some of them had different types of mx switches. As I recall, I liked the Ducky the least, partly because the board was warped -- it did not sit flat on the desk.  The Kul had some nice Dip switch options, but it had Cherry stabilizers, and I prefer Costar-type stabilizers. The Filco was in some ways the most elegant of the boards, but it had a fixed cable, and I prefer a detachable cable. Overall, I think I preferred the WASD Barebones. I've written a review of it on DT:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/wasd-v2-87-mx-brown-barebones-t9218.html

Since then, I have mostly left Cherry mx boards behind. Considering all switch types, my favorite TKLs are the IBM SSK and the Topre Realforce 87UB 55g. Considering all keyboards, my favorite switches are Matias Click, IBM Model F capacitive buckling spring, and Topre 45g or 55g. My current daily driver is a black HHKB with 55g domes and silencing rings.

[sami77]

i wish Gaming companies release TKL  feature Membrane Switch

[PrinsPils]

New update:

I ordered a KUL 87 a few weeks ago, but its difficult to get them in Europe and the delivery time is for mid September or even October.

In the meanwhile i have recieved my GMK Triumph Adler and using them on my blackwidow, these caps are feeling so much better than the orginal ones, so thats a good improvement for the time being.

Im also looking at custom keyboards. the soldering part is a nice challenge. Shame i cant buy a KMAC2 case, those are so beautiful! That would be an instant buy.

[jerue]

Nice to see you ended up with the KUL! Great choice what switches did you end up getting?

I think you will really like the switch to TKL layout, after my Realforce and QFS I refuse to buy any boards larger than TKL. It's so much more comfortable to use at my desk. The KUL most likely is built better than my CM Storm QFS, and I think the QFS is a big jump in quality compared to my 2013 BW Ultimate with blues. It will feel like a whole new world in comparison...

You also got some great keycaps (subject to much scrutiny...unfortunately), so you'll be quite pleased when they're on a board like the KUL. Make sure you share some pics when everything is up and running!

[Oobly]

KUL ES87 with GMK keycaps = GREAT RESULT

I'm sure you'll be happy with this combination.

The only improvement of a custom over that setup is in the metal case and switch customisation. That does improve the solid feeling of the board and you can personalise the switch feeling, but it's hard to justify the cost just for that. At least until you've had some more time / experience with mechanical boards and know exactly how to get the switch feel you want.

[PrinsPils]

Nice to see you ended up with the KUL! Great choice what switches did you end up getting?

I think you will really like the switch to TKL layout, after my Realforce and QFS I refuse to buy any boards larger than TKL. It's so much more comfortable to use at my desk. The KUL most likely is built better than my CM Storm QFS, and I think the QFS is a big jump in quality compared to my 2013 BW Ultimate with blues. It will feel like a whole new world in comparison...

You also got some great keycaps (subject to much scrutiny...unfortunately), so you'll be quite pleased when they're on a board like the KUL. Make sure you share some pics when everything is up and running!

Blue switches are my favourite, i love the clicky sound and feeling. The GMK TA keycaps are stunning, despite the minor "flaws" i really cant be bothered by it.

KUL ES87 with GMK keycaps = GREAT RESULT

I'm sure you'll be happy with this combination.

The only improvement of a custom over that setup is in the metal case and switch customisation. That does improve the solid feeling of the board and you can personalise the switch feeling, but it's hard to justify the cost just for that. At least until you've had some more time / experience with mechanical boards and know exactly how to get the switch feel you want.

Blue has always been my preference, the boards i tried earlier were just to feel the differences in material and brands. Fingers crossed i will recieve my KUL.



September 10th Update
I was hoping to recieve a KUL keyboard, but every time there is a delay, #hope it will come eventually. ETA for now is mid october. But i fear for more delays and end up with nothing. The signs are not good, no social media updates/responses , certain shops arent restocking the item etc. I'll keep my order for now, but i will shop around for another keyboard as well.

If i could, i would by a KMAC2 instantly (regardless the steep price) , but they arent for sale so i have to look for different models again. Maybe GON has the right one for me.

[saturnotaku]

September 10th Update
I was hoping to recieve a KUL keyboard, but every time there is a delay, #hope it will come eventually. ETA for now is mid october. But i fear for more delays and end up with nothing. The signs are not good, no social media updates/responses , certain shops arent restocking the item etc. I'll keep my order for now, but i will shop around for another keyboard as well.

Yeah, about that...https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74875.0

Reports of KUL's death have not been confirmed, but there are a lot of awfully suspicious circumstances surrounding them these past few weeks/months.

[jcoffin1981]

Will it be a noticable improvement for me to buy one of these keyboards or should i stick with my Razer and buy better keycaps? because people say PBT keycaps are nicer to use than the stock ones (ABS)

"Improvement" can mean a whole lot of things, and chances are we have very different preferences .

I'd choose the KUL, I have a backlit board and don't make use of the lights. *But* I only know that because I bought a backlit board and realized I didn't really need them. A big part of finding an "improved" kb setup is learning by trial-and-error and experience. Unfortunately, this takes more time than we want (since we want to spend our precious $$$ ASAP).

How about this: think about spending ~$60 for that imsto set, or think about spending $120 for a KUL. You'll either have two kbs with different switches and stock keycaps, or a switch you prefer (don't know if you really like blues) with better caps. go from there. hope that helped.

The overall aesthetics and feel (and size) add nearly as much to the board and typing experience as the actual mechanical act of typing (in my opinion, there are many).  I tried a Razer Blackwidow in a store and it did nothing for me.  It just felt cheap and hollow and displeasing.  It also had blue switches and the clicking kind of reverberated through the board and made it worse.  Rather than investing in keycaps for the Razer, I think that money would be better spend getting a new board.

I am of the about 5% minority that prefer ABS keycaps.  I love grazing my fingers over the PBT, especially with a nice substantial case; it just feels of quality.  However, as PrinsPils said it does change the feel of the keystroke.  ABS just feel more responsive, especially with light switches.  With the PBT I feel like every key is a little cube of concrete.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to choose two keyboards.  Perhaps one more of a budget 60- 80% board with a layout and switch you really want and ABS.  You could also invest in a second board that is known to be solid and well made.  The Poker3 comes standard with a metal case and PBT keycaps.  Try them both out for a week and make a decision.  You can then decide what contributes to a noticeable improvement for you.  For me going to a compact keyboard was a night and day difference (positive).

[PrinsPils]

September 10th Update
I was hoping to recieve a KUL keyboard, but every time there is a delay, #hope it will come eventually. ETA for now is mid october. But i fear for more delays and end up with nothing. The signs are not good, no social media updates/responses , certain shops arent restocking the item etc. I'll keep my order for now, but i will shop around for another keyboard as well.

Yeah, about that...https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74875.0

Reports of KUL's death have not been confirmed, but there are a lot of awfully suspicious circumstances surrounding them these past few weeks/months.

Yeah, the silence is a tell tale imho, also shops dont want to sell their products anymore was for me the reason to cancel the order and look for something else.

Will it be a noticable improvement for me to buy one of these keyboards or should i stick with my Razer and buy better keycaps? because people say PBT keycaps are nicer to use than the stock ones (ABS)

"Improvement" can mean a whole lot of things, and chances are we have very different preferences .

I'd choose the KUL, I have a backlit board and don't make use of the lights. *But* I only know that because I bought a backlit board and realized I didn't really need them. A big part of finding an "improved" kb setup is learning by trial-and-error and experience. Unfortunately, this takes more time than we want (since we want to spend our precious $$$ ASAP).

How about this: think about spending ~$60 for that imsto set, or think about spending $120 for a KUL. You'll either have two kbs with different switches and stock keycaps, or a switch you prefer (don't know if you really like blues) with better caps. go from there. hope that helped.

The overall aesthetics and feel (and size) add nearly as much to the board and typing experience as the actual mechanical act of typing (in my opinion, there are many).  I tried a Razer Blackwidow in a store and it did nothing for me.  It just felt cheap and hollow and displeasing.  It also had blue switches and the clicking kind of reverberated through the board and made it worse.  Rather than investing in keycaps for the Razer, I think that money would be better spend getting a new board.

I am of the about 5% minority that prefer ABS keycaps.  I love grazing my fingers over the PBT, especially with a nice substantial case; it just feels of quality.  However, as PrinsPils said it does change the feel of the keystroke.  ABS just feel more responsive, especially with light switches.  With the PBT I feel like every key is a little cube of concrete.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to choose two keyboards.  Perhaps one more of a budget 60- 80% board with a layout and switch you really want and ABS.  You could also invest in a second board that is known to be solid and well made.  The Poker3 comes standard with a metal case and PBT keycaps.  Try them both out for a week and make a decision.  You can then decide what contributes to a noticeable improvement for you.  For me going to a compact keyboard was a night and day difference (positive).

TKL is for me the perfect size, since i use the F keys a lot and i like the space between the number row and the F keys. Otherwise a 70/75% board would be fine as well.


Update September 19th
I have cancelled my KUL keyboard, im not going to wait for it anymore. It aint that special. The coolermaster Rapid Fire I with blue switches is hard to get in europe or you have to pay 200 euro's instead of the regular 100 euro's for the same model with brown switches. Since i was fed up with waiting for the KUL and the annoying quircks of the razer keyboard i bought a CoolerMaster Rapid Fire I with brown switches. And im honestly suprised about the buildquality , its really solid and the casing feels nice and soft. The backlight is a nice addition. The Brown switches are pretty good, but blue's are nicer for me. Despite that im happy with the choice and combined with (semi parts) of the GMK TA keyset it looks very lush. This will keep me happy till i find the perfect custom keyboard. (any kmac2 owners wanna sell?  )

Here is the result:

[suicidal_orange]

That is a surprisingly good looking combination you've landed up with