GMK-electronic make cherry keycap ?

[aggiejy]

just seems like a big leap to think there is that demand without actually finding out first.

Valid point, but it doesn't really matter right now.  As long as we have pricing with and without these additional keys, then we can gauge interest in in the interest check for the full set group buy.  If there isn't enough interest in the extra keys OR the price difference is not nominal, then they could (and should) be removed.  (Or broken out into their own item.)  I think most people want to be inclusive of more people, but it may just not make sense if it affects the price much at all, and it turns out that 90% of the potential orderers would be happy with a ANSI+ISO-Min set.  It's no mystery that you'd sell more with a lower price... it all depends on how much real interest there is for these extra keys.  Nothing to worry about now, but needs to be up for discussion when the time comes.

[rayuki]

just seems like a big leap to think there is that demand without actually finding out first.

Valid point, but it doesn't really matter right now.  As long as we have pricing with and without these additional keys, then we can gauge interest in in the interest check for the full set group buy.  If there isn't enough interest in the extra sets, and the price difference is not nominal, then they could (and SHOULD) be removed.  (Or broken out into their own item.)

yeah and the way lysol is doing it i couldn't really care since we can all get our cake and eat it too and have some left overs for desert lol. just want to be able to make MOQ is all and not have it spread out so thin we miss out on MOQ for any because of it.

[IvanIvanovich]

Right find out about everything, then go from there is the plan. I just see no reason to exclude things out on assumption when it harms nothing to do the opposite. Whether there is enough interest to include them as final options are another matter. It will be a cost to benefit ratio as in does having those extra language specific keys in the set cost more than loosing the orders that would want them. I feel that is a fair way to approach it. Until we have pricing and then AFTER that start interest check, it's complete speculation from either side of this argument.

[GMC]

Gotta say I'm really glad to have Lysol and Dan heading this up.  Truly shocked at the 'we're American, don't bother with the non-ANSI folks to save us a couple of measly dollars' comments.
Real healthy dose of community spirit.

I'll get my coat now.

[aggiejy]

Haha, GMC.  I don't think anyone is saying that exactly.

[OrangeJewce]

Gotta say I'm really glad to have Lysol and Dan heading this up.  Truly shocked at the 'we're American, don't bother with the non-ANSI folks to save us a couple of measly dollars' comments.
Real healthy dose of community spirit.

I'll get my coat now.

Have you read any of the last 10 pages? The guys really want to include as many sets as possible, you have to understand that the demand has to be great enough to support the cost. To include all the keys for each region would be a huge number (>100) and prohibitively expensive. Why don't you just wait and see what will be ultimately be included?

Cheers,

[hashbaz]

No one even uttered the word American, GMC.  My concern is keeping things simple while also maximizing the appeal across as many people as possible.  To me that suggests an ANSI main kit with a simple ISO add-on (or as part of the main kit depending on cost).  We do this in many of our group buys.

That said, I trust lysol and Dan with this as they are both experienced members and know what they are doing.  Like lysol said, if we don't make MOQ, we don't make MOQ, and stuff will be dropped.  What I think no one wants is the fancy cost balancing that took place in R3 and R4 whereby the many shoulder a lot of cost so that the few can have their specific regional layouts.

[GMC]

Not aiming to cause a ruckus. Just posted how it felt. Intended to feel that way or not, its how numerous comments came across. No issue at all with the ic polling to make it sensible and viable, less comfortable with the pushes to jump straight to ANSI with a Jret concession. I get that is how most GBs have been done but it means using ISO international instead of the layout I want and have used for decades.

Anyways, the thread was to let people express opinions, I've said my piece and if its just one guy talking here I'll make do and mend.  No harm no foul.

I'll chill now and let the options play out - the prices look real good and look like they'll allow us to pay what we're used to and get more flexibility for the same outlay.

Apologies if I ended up sounding xenophobic. Been a long week.

[aggiejy]

What I think no one wants is the fancy cost balancing that took place in R3 and R4 whereby the many shoulder a lot of cost so that the few can have their specific regional layouts.

THIS. But that said, I'm personally not opposed to a "couple of measly dollars" if that's all it turns out to be.  If it's ten or twenty measly dollars, it just makes sense to make it an optional add on where everyone that wants it splits those costs.  I suppose there are more socialist ways of thinking on this too, but lets not get in that discussion.  Hopefully GMK's pricing makes this almost a non-issue.

[GMC]

Not disagreeing, lysols proposition should do away with the near indecipherable r4 scenario though. Anyways, early start tomorrow and this wine bottle is now empty so I'm checking out.

[Soarer]

What I think no one wants is the fancy cost balancing that took place in R3 and R4 whereby the many shoulder a lot of cost so that the few can have their specific regional layouts.

Whoah! I saw no evidence that 'a lot of cost' was borne by those only wanting ANSI sets in R3 (I've ignored R4, so I dunno about that one), compared to other more limited GBs.

I'm saying right now that I would be happy to partly subsidize the cost of regional kits through a higher price on the main kit, and I know from reading this thread that I'm not the only one. (Sure, I'd like a UK kit, but that has very few keys compared to the other languages it might be bundled in with - I'm fine with that too).

And at the end of it all, it might be necessary in order to reach the MOQ on base kits - it might need the many European buyers who would only buy if there are regional kits.

So if you trust them, why start drawing battle lines now?

[hashbaz]

Just voicing my opinion and responding to others' opinions.

I too am fine with a small extra cost for keys I won't use if it means that a lot more people get what they want.  My understanding though is that 7bit distributed a significant portion of the cost of the regional sets (of which very few were ordered) among the more  popular sets to make the former more affordable, both in R3 and R4.

[Acanthophis]

But they do have all the molds already!
If they want to produce a Ø keycap, it's not gonna be any different to a S keycap. Liquid plastic into molds, press, dry n hard, finished.
The only more costs of more caps are the more caps, that's it.

To make relations to R3 or R4 is bull****. We had to pay SP much for just tooling and new molds...

[hashbaz]

Buying 400 or 500 sets of X is going to be a significant cost even without molds.

[Acanthophis]

True, indeed.
But molds and tooling costs are factors which don't show up in the GMK equation.
So I don't thnk both cases are comparable.

[Soarer]

Just voicing my opinion and responding to others' opinions.

I too am fine with a small extra cost for keys I won't use if it means that a lot more people get what they want.  My understanding though is that 7bit distributed a significant portion of the cost of the regional sets (of which very few were ordered) among the more  popular sets to make the former more affordable, both in R3 and R4.

K, I see what you're saying. I dunno how much cost might've been shared around - it certainly didn't seem to make a big difference to the price of an ANSI set compared to other GBs, which is what I wanted to point out.

I guess the difference here is that SP had a very small MOQ for those sets. We can only hope that something sensible can be arranged with GMK for the language kits, on the back of having a hefty order of base ANSI sets.

[hashbaz]

So I don't thnk both cases are comparable.

Until we see the numbers it's impossible to say.

[guilleguillaume]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

[korne]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

I totally agree with u guilleguillaume, geekhack, deskthority, and kbdmania should cooperate to reach as much people as posible, that include ANSI + ISO layouts (de, spanish, italian etc)

I dont have any problem if i have to pay some extras to get my current layout (spanish)

Now we don't have the problem we had previously with Signature Plastics since they allways charged us with customs, GMK have the tools for all the layouts.

//korne

[fruktstund]

I think I've said this before, but I'll try to talk to people that generally don't hang around these forums just to get the word out. I'd suggest users of other layouts do the same. Be it talk about it on forums or with friends, it could probably help! <:

As an ANSI user I don't care too much about other layouts (well I guess I care a bit about Swedish of course), but even so I think it's really worth noting that this is a community where we usually can help each other quite a bit (a good example would be these crazy things called "group buys"), and therefore should care about other members (and their layouts). Having these few extra sets could also help attract a wider public, which seems like a good thing to me.

Also, adding a few extra sets shouldn't sink group buys a lot, at least not if we do it lysol's way. That's what I believe anyway.

Maybe that which I just wrote is only me being optimistic though?

[maxmalkav]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

I totally agree with u guilleguillaume, geekhack, deskthority, and kbdmania should cooperate to reach as much people as posible, that include ANSI + ISO layouts (de, spanish, italian etc)

I dont have any problem if i have to pay some extras to get my current layout (spanish)

Now we don't have the problem we had previously with Signature Plastics since they allways charged us with customs, GMK have the tools for all the layouts.

//korne

I totally agree with my fellows and I reiterate in their opinion. Maybe it's time to finish this "poor neighbour" stigma for the traditionally outcast layouts. It's true we are not that big in numbers such as ANSI or ISO DE, but we have been supporting the community and doing sacrifices in some degree to make happen other group buys. The GMK deal will hopefully change the rules of the game and we would really appreciate some solidarity from the rest of the community to give us a chance to get our proper layout. On the other hand, some  currently minority layouts in the hobbyist community have quite a  growing potential if you look at the numbers of their target audience. Just think about the Spanish-speaking market and it's weak representation in this kind of communities. This lack of love to their layout doesn't encourage them to jump in, that's for sure.

[OrangeJewce]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

I totally agree with u guilleguillaume, geekhack, deskthority, and kbdmania should cooperate to reach as much people as posible, that include ANSI + ISO layouts (de, spanish, italian etc)

I dont have any problem if i have to pay some extras to get my current layout (spanish)

Now we don't have the problem we had previously with Signature Plastics since they allways charged us with customs, GMK have the tools for all the layouts.

//korne

I totally agree with my fellows and I reiterate in their opinion. Maybe it's time to finish this "poor neighbour" stigma for the traditionally outcast layouts. It's true we are not that big in numbers such as ANSI or ISO DE, but we have been supporting the community and doing sacrifices in some degree to make happen other group buys. The GMK deal will hopefully change the rules of the game and we would really appreciate some solidarity from the rest of the community to give us a chance to get our proper layout. On the other hand, some  currently minority layouts in the hobbyist community have quite a  growing potential if you look at the numbers of their target audience. Just think about the Spanish-speaking market and it's weak representation in this kind of communities. This lack of love to their layout doesn't encourage them to jump in, that's for sure.

Guys...I don't know why we are getting so worked up...Dan and lysol have already stated multiple times we are going to get as many regions in the buy as possible...This isn't even for sets.

Let's just take a step back and breathe.

Cheers,

[hashbaz]

This is clearly a sensitive issue.  I appreciate that the users of non-ANSI layouts still participate in ANSI-centric GBs, but I'm afraid that using a layout that is in the numerical minority will usually mean that you are not accommodated as well as others.  It can't really be any other way.

Now that said, I believe all of us who have mentioned making this an ANSI+ISO kit GB have also said that we are fine with a small increase in base kit price if it helps our non-ANSI brethren.  The things we want to avoid are (1) R4-style complexity and churn, and (2) significant increase in prices for the majority to offset the cost of low-volume regional layouts.  We've had our say, Dan and lysol are aware of the issues, and that should be more or less the end of it.

If the regional sets work out MOQ-wise and don't mire the buy in complexity, then I'm 100% for them.

[dirge]

There are quite a few people from the UK that post on here, don't think were a minority.
 I don't partake in full sets as my layout is never done.  So I'm limited to 7bit really. I'm glad Lysol is running an inclusive group buy.

[Mayor Winters]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

I totally agree with u guilleguillaume, geekhack, deskthority, and kbdmania should cooperate to reach as much people as posible, that include ANSI + ISO layouts (de, spanish, italian etc)

I dont have any problem if i have to pay some extras to get my current layout (spanish)

Now we don't have the problem we had previously with Signature Plastics since they allways charged us with customs, GMK have the tools for all the layouts.

//korne

I totally agree with my fellows and I reiterate in their opinion. Maybe it's time to finish this "poor neighbour" stigma for the traditionally outcast layouts. It's true we are not that big in numbers such as ANSI or ISO DE, but we have been supporting the community and doing sacrifices in some degree to make happen other group buys. The GMK deal will hopefully change the rules of the game and we would really appreciate some solidarity from the rest of the community to give us a chance to get our proper layout. On the other hand, some  currently minority layouts in the hobbyist community have quite a  growing potential if you look at the numbers of their target audience. Just think about the Spanish-speaking market and it's weak representation in this kind of communities. This lack of love to their layout doesn't encourage them to jump in, that's for sure.

Agree 100%, and this "This lack of love to their layout doesn't encourage them to jump in, that's for sure" is what really happens. A lot of people is jumping in the mechanical keyboard market in our regional forums, but a lot of them just buy the average Razer / CM / Gigabyte keyboards that offer spanish layout. If they knew that is possible to get an ISO ES layout compatible with any keyboard, they might but other keyboards and be more in the world of keyboards.

[maxmalkav]

Guys...I don't know why we are getting so worked up...Dan and lysol have already stated multiple times we are going to get as many regions in the buy as possible...This isn't even for sets.

Let's just take a step back and breathe.

Cheers,

I know, we were just making our point about this. We understand our position in the context of the keyboard community, but at least, expressing our opinions and concerns we are also stating that ... we exist! ;-)

Maybe we are worrying about regional GMK layouts too early, but you know .. just in case

[zulios]

I appreciate the way Dan and Lysol are doing this. Indeed in R4 I saw many comments on french forums saying they dropped because they had to get their regional layout separately at a very expensive price.

That would be interesting to see how much of this is pure talk by trying to include them in the base price partially or fully, whatever works best. If it doesn't drive demand up enough or raises the cost too much, I would understand that it gets dropped or sold separately. But then I wouldn't like to get specific ANSI keys either for my regional layout, things need to go both ways. That's one of the many issues 7bit encountered when running R4, and still I keep thinking he has done a great job overall.

[Alessandro]

I love US ANSI... If Uk layout doesn't get implemented, oh well. If it does, that'll be very nice.

[Monja]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

Agree 100%, we need ISO layouts!!!

[gameaholic]

Just had the idea that someone should put the word out on the vendor forums to see if any major companies would want to get in on on the action.  Maybe Carter from CM Storm can have a batch of QFR's made with a set of these caps or have full sets available as an add on accessory.  Maybe they will even become the industry standard for gaming keyboards.  One can dream.   

[oneproduct]

I don't partake in full sets as my layout is never done.  So I'm limited to 7bit really. I'm glad Lysol is running an inclusive group buy.

Same here. I use Colemak layout and because of this I haven't even considered participating in any of the full set group buys except for 7bit's, in which I happily ordered two full sets. (2 ansi sets + 2 colemak addons) At the moment, I have blanks on all my keyboards because it's impossible to find double-shots/dye-subs with my layout. I know a lot of people complain that 7bit has too many things going on in his group buys, but there are lots of people who appreciate it.

Though there's not a lot of vocalization for it here, pretty much everyone from deskthority would want some sort of regional pack. Also, since people were only talking about region based kits, I guess I'd like to throw in the idea of Dvorak/Colemak sets to that already big list... (and there might even be some people from deskthority who want Neo/Bepo...)

[baldgye]

As a realative new-comer to mechanical keyboards and someone who prefers ISO layouts its something you have to accept. Bearly anywhere else in the world uses ISO and so it makes sense for it to be nonstandard, there is a set that dsnt have an ISO option?

Fine, it just makes finishing more of a challenge... managing to get a full set of ISO cherry DS's in cream has turned into a challenge thats taking me a while to finish, espcially finding a smaller shift key that fits and a spacebar thats the right shade of cream... but its been FAR more enjoyable than just being able to buy a full set in one go.


That's how this hobbie goes, so I think its pretty amazing that ISO is getting as much love as its getting without people feeling the need to get all arsy about it

[oneproduct]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it? In Quebec, Canada it's also the standard. I think there's even a law here that if a laptop has an ISO variant keyboard that that's the only version that's allowed to be sold. I had to buy a replacement ANSI keyboard from the US for my laptop.

Anyways, I understand that even if these other layouts are supported, that there's probably not a huge demand for particular instances of them (eg I know Colemak and some of the more obscure regions wouldn't bring in too many extra orders). If you have it, that's great, but if not it's just another group buy for me to skip out on, nothing new or shocking.

Might be worth asking 7bit how many orders there were for each region relative to the number of base sets so you could get a feel for what it would add.

[baldgye]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it?

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

[Soarer]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it?

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

Well the standard in Europe in ISO. Of course there are people who prefer ANSI, but it's hard to tell if they are actually numerous, or simply noisy )

[damorgue]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it?

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

Well the standard in Europe in ISO. Of course there are people who prefer ANSI, but it's hard to tell if they are actually numerous, or simply noisy )

I'd say we have a very heavy selection bias here of EU ISO users who give in and just get ANSI to help group buys.

[agor]

 Europe is ISO all over

[Soarer]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it?

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

Well the standard in Europe in ISO. Of course there are people who prefer ANSI, but it's hard to tell if they are actually numerous, or simply noisy )

I'd say we have a very heavy selection bias here of EU ISO users who give in and just get ANSI to help group buys.

Quite possibly... and not just GBs, keyboards as well.

[GMC]

ISO is used in most of Europe, isn't it?

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

ISO is the standard in Europe

[damorgue]

I'd say we have a very heavy selection bias here of EU ISO users who give in and just get ANSI to help group buys.

Quite possibly... and not just GBs, keyboards as well.

And even people who know what ISO and ANSI layout are for that matter. The general masses, and may just think: "oh, what a weirdly shaped enter... oh well, it will have to do."

[kbdfr]

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

Most of Europe going towards ANSI rather than ISO?
Where did you catch that )

Could you imagine typing on a keyboard which misses one or more of the characters used in your language? That's what happens to Europeans switching to US layout. ß in German, ç in French or ñ in Spanish are not just weird signs appearing once in a while, but normal characters of their own like, say, b or d. It makes absolutely no sense to get rid of them if you want to type in your own language.

[baldgye]

my bad then, it just seemd like as an ISO user i was in the minority, even on DT... but I still stand by the fact that its still more fun and more enjoyable to slowly be able to build up a set over time getting r andom odd keys in the process to get your pefect set-up, rather than just buying it outright...

[baldgye]

I always assumed that most of europe seemed to go towards ANSI rather than ISO (but I could be wrong)

Most of Europe going towards ANSI rather than ISO?
Where did you catch that )

Could you imagine typing on a keyboard which misses one or more of the characters used in your language? That's what happens to Europeans switching to US layout. ß in German, ç in French or ñ in Spanish are not just weird signs appearing once in a while, but normal characters of their own like, say, b or d. It makes absolutely no sense to get rid of them if you want to type in your own language.

my gf is italian and so I spend a fair bit of time over-there and most of the boards I've seen (though granted that was very limited) seemed to be a variation on ANSI or ISO (with super huge or tiny enter keys etc)... and seeing all the people on here and DK...

[Soarer]

... even on DT...

That's what I meant by 'noisy'

[baldgye]

... even on DT...

That's what I meant by 'noisy'

[IvanIvanovich]

Yes most of Europe use ISO, the only countries I saw ANSI frequently was Russia, Ukraine, Poland and Netherlands. But even in those countries there is still quite a lot of ISO version. Also most of South America use variants of ISO ES and PO keyboard. Not really sure about Africa or Middle East.
ANSI is mostly used in US and Asia except Japan.

[m_enanos]

he is looking to buy their existing stocks not asking about groupbuys. one of those who couldn't wait. o well.

True

[rayuki]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

no one said anything of the sort, all we (well I personally) asked is that you speak up, and we see there is enough interest for it. you have to see how it would be pretty stupid if only 30-50 want the euro layouts if MOQ is over 400 sets.

im all for paying a bit extra for keys i dont actually need to help meet MOQ and get other people some layouts but if its just gonna be for a small minority then whats the point? you guys who really want this should be out there gathering interest from other forums etc in other languages for the people that might be interested in this but have no idea or can't read geekhack because of language barriers etc.

[Alessandro]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

no one said anything of the sort, all we (well I personally) asked is that you speak up, and we see there is enough interest for it. you have to see how it would be pretty stupid if only 30-50 want the euro layouts if MOQ is over 400 sets.

im all for paying a bit extra for keys i dont actually need to help meet MOQ and get other people some layouts but if its just gonna be for a small minority then whats the point? you guys who really want this should be out there gathering interest from other forums etc in other languages for the people that might be interested in this but have no idea or can't read geekhack because of language barriers etc.

That depends, 50 is still quite a fraction of 400, especially in terms of reaching a MOQ.
I don't mind which way this goes, I'm very happy using US ANSI anyway, and much prefer it to UK ISO for the most part, and can stay that way. If we include international packs then great, I can sway my hash key for a pound key, and speech marks for @. Either is fine with me.

[rayuki]

It's pretty funny to see how the average geekhack user doesn't give a f*ck about non-US users and our layouts.

The only thing we ask is for our own layouts to be considered having in mind that we have helped to reach the MOQ in every single GB that have been made and we just received blank keys to fit on ISO keyboards most of the time or not even that. To have some great sets we have to deal with missing keycaps sometimes and wrong number cluster symbols every single time. You wouldn't want to receive 4 extra keys to make us pay less for a set that could fit ANSI and ISO keyboards.

What would you think if Lysol and Dan decided we're only going to purchase ISO DE layout? None of you would be happy with that decission except for a few.

That's how we feel most of the time. Some of you only care about your ANSI layout and nothing else.

I can remember how many of us received an useless ANSI number row in Round 3 and had to purchase our extra layout keys separately having to pay for both when we only needed one and wasn't ANSI. And of course extra layout keys weren't cheap.

That's not the way to go but we've made sacrifices many times receiving keys we don't need and paying for them so everyone could get their sets cheaper and some of you won't even think about it or won't even think about receiving 4 keys.

How about looking at the situation from another point of view?

no one said anything of the sort, all we (well I personally) asked is that you speak up, and we see there is enough interest for it. you have to see how it would be pretty stupid if only 30-50 want the euro layouts if MOQ is over 400 sets.

im all for paying a bit extra for keys i dont actually need to help meet MOQ and get other people some layouts but if its just gonna be for a small minority then whats the point? you guys who really want this should be out there gathering interest from other forums etc in other languages for the people that might be interested in this but have no idea or can't read geekhack because of language barriers etc.

That depends, 50 is still quite a fraction of 400, especially in terms of reaching a MOQ. I don't mind which way this goes, I'm very happy using US ANSI anyway, and can stay that way. If we include international packs then great, I can sway my hash key for a pound key, and speech marks for @. Either is fine with me.

yeah but the problem seems to be the communication area. guys whinging about not being included because of ISO etc should be out there spreading the word about this. if most of europe use this then get the word out!

yes 50 is still alot, but 350 other people will have to pay extra and have a bunch of useless keys just for that minority. im sure hash can give ideas on more actual numbers since he has run GBs before with ISO layout options etc.