GMK-electronic make cherry keycap ?

[Soarer]

Everyone knows that a ES/IT/PT group will never reach a 300 or 400 MOQ so "breaking them down into even smaller most closely related packs" means simply sharing american MOQ with some others europeans

I guess you aren't considering the point I made just a couple of posts ago

[pasph]

you are saying that each language pack will not have its separate MOQ?

[IvanIvanovich]

I find it hard to believe that it can't be reached. There are millions of speakers of those langages. I don't actually use those layouts myself, but I do like to collect keysets. I will be planning on buying everything that can make it to production.

[Soarer]

you are saying that each language pack will not have its separate MOQ?

I don't know where to start answering you, because "sharing american MOQ" demonstrates that there are some very big misunderstandings here!

[IvanIvanovich]

Just like many told me I would never make 300 moq for Russian sets... well they were close to right, I only got to 288 but got them into production anyway. However if everyone that made an order would have actually paid it, I would have exceeded that goal. Never say something is impossible without trying first.

[pasph]

you are saying that each language pack will not have its separate MOQ?

I don't know where to start answering you, because "sharing american MOQ" demonstrates that there are some very big misunderstandings here!

If you make a language pack ES/IT/PT and another NORDIC/DE/etc../US (i have to search that lysol post) and each have a MOQ of 400 how do you call it?
But don't worry i have keyboards with IT, DE, ANSI, UK, NORDIC layout so no problem
Just today in the mail i got a Cherry G80-1500HAMIT, not bad for €56

[Soarer]

We don't know what the MOQ will be for those sets. It may even be less than 300, alongside a fat order for full sets.

Let's play some numbers.

Say the ANSIans want 300 sets. Fine, they could do that group buy on their own and it would cost them X per set.

Now say the ISOans want 100. That brings down the cost per set by Y%, BUT they want language kit(s) as well.

It makes no difference whatsoever to the ANSIans if the whole 400 * X * Y% goes towards funding the language kit(s).

I think most of the ISOans realise that their language kit(s) will be pretty expensive compared to the base set.

Whether that's enough to make it viable remains to be seen. We'll need to find out what MOQs would apply. Even then it's mostly a discussion for the ISOans to have amongst themselves, to begin with at least. There's certainly no point at this stage in anyone arguing against trying to be inclusive, which is how some peoples opinions are coming across - just overly defensive, perhaps.

[jdcarpe]

Very well said, Soarer. As long as the price of the base set doesn't increase, after the discount of adding the orders that need language packs, and the slight increase in price per set for the extra keys, which would hopefully offset. There really would be no reason NOT to be inclusive and help those who need language packs get the sets they need.

[GMC]

Contentious question time...

Why not remove the silly small enter and / keys that ANSI uses from the base set and include that with ISO enter, and short l and r shifts as part of the localisation packs.

Base set using us international legends as that is the best common denominator for all languages.
(Except Canadian international, but that's likely to need new moulds.)

[IvanIvanovich]

Do it my way that I posted on the last page and there isn't modifiers on the base set at all... I like this approach as it would allow mix match if one desires, and we want to offer those modifiers packs to complete vintage sets people already have anyway.
So base set would be something like function row, universal nav keys (legends tbd), universal numpad (numbers only?), and the following: E R T U I O P S D F G H J K L X C V B N as every language (alternative layout like dvorak, neo... not a language) set have those keys in the same places.

[Soarer]

I'm not sure it helps to break it down so much; it seems over-complicated to make the most common 'Z' an option!!

Splitting modifiers from the rest doesn't really affect much (as far as these early discussions are concerned), since the majority will probably order both. I think the term 'base set' should refer to a complete set, but sure, it's also a good idea to be able to buy just modifiers or just non-modifiers.

Hmm, numpads... tricky, since ideally Enter etc should match the modifier colours. And there's also a question there about how many layout variations to support (-1800, etc).

[GMC]

All buys should support 1800

[tsangan]

All buys should support 1800

haven't been following as closely as I would have wished

but definitely +1 on support for 1800 series shift as for an exact 1800 series profile for all the keys I don't think that is necessary

[IvanIvanovich]

Z Y have different placement on qwertz, so they would be in the language packs. The numpad enter, math symbols could be added to the modifiers pack. Function and nav keys start getting tricky though... what color... where do they belong? ehmagerd.
I wouldn't mind having 1800 keys too, but it all depend on interest levels and price impact. 1.75 shift is a lock as other boards use it like Choc mini, Pure, and so many of the kit boards, etc.

[jdcarpe]

Don't forget AZERTY...

[GMC]

 I'd suggest a numpad kit extended to have correct profile for the upper 1800 keys.

[Soarer]

I know QWERTZ (and AZERTY) 'Z' would be in language pack(s), but it seems over-doing it to have the QWERTY 'Z' also in a separate pack!

1800 numpad is just three single width keys - not nearly as problematic as the huge range of modifiers! But yeah, there's also Delete, End, PgDn which are a different profile.

Function and nav keys... belonging... simplest to just build the list of what a 'complete' set is first, before breaking it down

[GMC]

I hear you but the idea of a complete set is layout dependant.  I'd always vote ISO there as it is used in more countries than ANSI.

Hence my earlier suggestion of taking us international minus enter, shifts and the / key, but with f keys

Then you add a modifier pack covering your modifiers for ANSI or ISO, 1.5, 1.25, and 1.0 mods, large and small shifts and arrows

Then add numpad to include 1 x 0, 00, + etc for max compatibility, and an extra 2 rows of relegendables above for programmable numpads, goldtouch pads, etc.

[IvanIvanovich]

Just throwing ideas out there. I don't see how having those keys in the language packs as any kind of issue so like qwerty Y Z woul be in the appropriate US, ES or whatever packs. Complete set contents will depend on what language... it's a little complex.
Making things modular adds some more complexity for sure, but I think more people can go away happy with having those choices.
So for example... you would be able to pick Dolch mods, white/black base and white/red language pack if one wished theoretically. Could make for some interesting kit options.

[Soarer]

I dunno... I'm just thinking that excluding a few keys from the base set, that 90% of people would want, is too much of a breakdown - at this stage I'm also not sure that it would save much money.

Roughly, I think a good base set would be a US 104-key, plus modifier variations as already in the modifier pack, plus numpad variations (TBD), plus maybe a \| and a blank which would allow US layout on an ISO 'board. I'd suggest that as a starting point for discussion, anyway, in terms of how the language kits would add to it, and for gauging the scale of language kit(s) vs the 'base' kit.

Of course, splitting that base into modifiers and non-modifiers makes sense to provide options, but doesn't really change my idea of a base set

[GMC]

Make your base a 105 iso and I'll join you. I don't want to use a flat enter, its what bugs me about my pure and why I want a GH60.
Not gonna get too het up about it but if we want high moq's and a growing community, we need to recognise that ANSI is the global minority and imo should be a handled with a localised kit.  Also, gmk being a German outfit, if we buy ISO base sets then we will likely make them change tooling less and perhaps see better rates...

[Soarer]

Modifier pack already has the ISO enter

[IvanIvanovich]

There is zero advantage to making the default set US ANSI other than silencing the people that are whining about even offering other languages, and frankly f*ck them.

[tsangan]

There is zero advantage to making the default set US ANSI other than silencing the people that are whining about even offering other languages, and frankly f*ck them.

I have 0 problem with offering other languages and layouts, as there are many and I know lots of others are interested I didn't know this was an issue at all

With that all being said is the majority not ANSI? so unless you're looking the common keys out of ALL the language/layouts then have an ANSI kit afterwards?

Maybe I'm just closed minded but so tell what would be the "best" default layout?

The way I see it is ANSI does not require help to reach the MOQ while some language/layouts will have their issues so if you want to offer another language/layout as "default" wouldn't the ANSI people just make their own GB?

[IvanIvanovich]

What I am proposing is NO default language, but simply what is common to ALL of them as the 'base' kit. E R T U I O P S D F G H J K L X C V B N and numpad for certain. Will need to figure out how to handle the function and nav, due to 2tone colorways will cause some complications. The other alphas and numrow would be in language packs that would be grouped for most similarity. After this you select the modifier pack and then you have a complete set.

[Soarer]

While I agree with lysol's sentiment, I also think that since US buyers will be the majority, US may as well be the base set. Just for ease of discussion, if nothing else. Removing the US only keys from sets going to ISOans might make sense if it saves a significant amount of money (which would leave those buyers with more money to spend on language set(s)), but I'm really not sure that it would be significant.

[tsangan]

While I agree with lysol's sentiment, I also think that since US buyers will be the majority, US may as well be the base set. Just for ease of discussion, if nothing else. Removing the US only keys from sets going to ISOans might make sense if it saves a significant amount of money (which would leave those buyers with more money to spend on language set(s)), but I'm really not sure that it would be significant.

I was thinking about something similar to that as you're making it very separate then wouldn't ANSI user just buy what they need and move on?

Or would making the majority set as base so it lessens the cost for the ANSI users and maybe free up some funds to help other language/layout sets, though like Soarer said it might not be significant

Overall I think for novelty sake people will help with language packs but the main problem is other layouts and reaching their MOQ some will really need assistance from the community to make it work

[jdcarpe]

So now we are ANSI bashing?

While ISO may in fact be used in "more countries" than ANSI (although I'm not certain of even that), I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of computer users (population) on this PLANET use ANSI keyboards. Let's see, which countries use ISO keyboards? EU member states. Which countries use ANSI keyboards? Here's a partial list: USA, Canada, Mexico, China, India, Russia, Australia, probably all of the Middle East and most of Africa.

Anyone have any FACTS to dispute this? I'm open to discussion.

I'm not saying majority rules here, and f*ck everyone else. I'm all for being inclusive, and adding language options where is makes sense. But making a blanket statement that most keyboard users are ISO users is incorrect.

[Soarer]

While I agree with lysol's sentiment, I also think that since US buyers will be the majority, US may as well be the base set. Just for ease of discussion, if nothing else. Removing the US only keys from sets going to ISOans might make sense if it saves a significant amount of money (which would leave those buyers with more money to spend on language set(s)), but I'm really not sure that it would be significant.

I was thinking about something similar to that as you're making it very separate then wouldn't ANSI user just buy what they need and move on?

Or would making the majority set as base so it lessens the cost for the ANSI users and maybe free up some funds to help other language/layout sets, though like Soarer said it might not be significant

Indeed. For the US ANSI buyer, and therefore for the main MOQs, the breakdown makes no difference. These splits all come to exactly the same thing for them...

• base set (= complete US)
• modifier set + non-modifier set
• modifier set + common set + US set

Overall I think for novelty sake people will help with language packs but the main problem is other layouts and reaching their MOQ some will really need assistance from the community to make it work

That's something we just don't know yet. It probably isn't helpful to a calm debate to say that assistance will be needed, since there wiill be at least some who are noisily against any such assistance.

It depends a lot on how much the various language users agree to help each other out, for one thing. And whether GMK will allow a lower MOQ for language kits alongside a larger order. Having the ISO enter and 1.25 left shift in the base set / modifier set helps. Having the reduction in price due to the larger order of base sets go towards language kits helps.

[IvanIvanovich]

Maybe I will just sit it out and let someone else try to organize it.

[GMC]

So now we are ANSI bashing?

While ISO may in fact be used in "more countries" than ANSI (although I'm not certain of even that), I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of computer users (population) on this PLANET use ANSI keyboards. Let's see, which countries use ISO keyboards? EU member states. Which countries use ANSI keyboards? Here's a partial list: USA, Canada, Mexico, China, India, Russia, Australia, probably all of the Middle East and most of Africa.

Anyone have any FACTS to dispute this? I'm open to discussion.

I'm not saying majority rules here, and f*ck everyone else. I'm all for being inclusive, and adding language options where is makes sense. But making a blanket statement that most keyboard users are ISO users is incorrect.

 The community is a hell of a lot more likely to grow, if the current membership is not taken as representative of the world.
ANSI is not the majority. It's not ANSI bashing I'm trying to do here, its support greater spread of our hobby by making it easier for other people to join with less compromise.

As to facts, check Gartner figures on computer sales 2011 shows approx 25% were north America.

Check Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout and just scroll the layouts looking at the enter keys...  More places follow ISO than ANSI
ISO is an international standard.

Looking at your list:
USA ANSI
Canada ANSI and ISO for French or the Canadian multilingual layout which is also ISO French speakers are a fair proportion of the population
Mexico; Latin American Spanish ISO layout
Australia, lookup an aus site selling laptops and you'll see an ISO layout.   all of the Middle East and most of Africa, as well as China, India, Russia, need to use very different character sets and typically have modified layouts, often using big ass enter keys.  To use ANSI in China means pinyin entry, not likely the ideal to not even use your native characters.

I'm not bashing but I do want to see our hobby grow and I believe that is part of what lysols plan will support.

Edited to remove flame bait

[GMC]

Maybe I will just sit it out and let someone else try to organize it.

Please don't.
I'm off to bed now. Said my piece and it will be heard or not. ANSI are the majority here, I just want this place to be more globally aware and accommodating.

[Soarer]

Maybe I will just sit it out and let someone else try to organize it.

Nooo! I really appreciate you trying to make this inclusive. But a great political campaign manager, you are not

[IvanIvanovich]

Are you sure? I mean I could turn it over to make it ROUND5 and it can have 937 options that you have to order in hexidecimal and finish in 2113...

[tjcaustin]

Are you sure? I mean I could turn it over to make it ROUND5 and it can have 937 options that you have to order in hexidecimal and finish in 2113...

I don't think Round4 will be finished shipping missing and errored keys by then though...

[jeroplane]

The community is a hell of a lot more likely to grow, if the current membership is not taken as representative of the world.
ANSI is not the majority. It's not ANSI bashing I'm trying to do here, its support greater spread of our hobby by making it easier for other people to join with less compromise.

As to facts, check Gartner figures on computer sales 2011 shows approx 25% were north America.

Check Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout and just scroll the layouts looking at the enter keys...  More places follow ISO than ANSI
ISO is an international standard.

Looking at your list:
USA ANSI
Canada ANSI and ISO for French or the Canadian multilingual layout which is also ISO French speakers are a fair proportion of the population
Mexico; Latin American Spanish ISO layout
Australia, lookup an aus site selling laptops and you'll see an ISO layout.   all of the Middle East and most of Africa, as well as China, India, Russia, need to use very different character sets and typically have modified layouts, often using big ass enter keys.  To use ANSI in China means pinyin entry, not likely the ideal to not even use your native characters.

Statistics may show one thing, but it's all irrelevant when the reality shows otherwise. We're not looking at computer users here, we're looking at the ACTUAL people on each respective forum. I.e. the relevant demographic is "keyboard enthusiasts", not "computer users". Look at the numbers people have posted before about the interest in ANSI vs. ISO in other sets. Let's be honest here, the availability of layouts is NOT the reason why more people aren't keyboard enthusiasts. I can think of other factors are are far more overbearing.

Your statistics do not correlate. "Computer sales are 25% NA" and "more countries use ISO" is not a basis for saying "more people use ISO".

As for Australia, not a single person I know uses ISO layout. The fact that our stores offer the option is not an indication of anything at all. And more importantly, it's a safe bet to say that the number of Australian ISO users that are actually on GH/DT would number less than 5, if not none.

And another important country: Korea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the Korean users (at least the non-Hangul users) use ANSI, not ISO, and they make up a huge proportion of our keyboard community.

In the end, I am supportive of however lysol chooses to run this GB. This discussion has shown just how difficult it is to decide on the best arrangement of options, and no solution will be a perfect one. However, in the end, everyone will have their sets and that is the most important thing.

[strafe]

the number of Australian ISO users that are actually on GH/DT would number less than 5, if not none.

Only steelseries owners i guess .  All of my keyboards are ANSI.

[IvanIvanovich]

I would really like to try and reach even wider and hope that people may post the buy on other forums where allowed. There might be a lot of people out there that did not know about or were not interested in the SP keys in prior buys, aren't on these forums due to language barrier and other factors. There may be people that have NO IDEA that they can replace the stock keycaps on thier mechs with aftermarket options. I think there are a lot more mx mech users out there than some may realize that are not on keyboard forums.

[aggiejy]

There are two separate tasks for you and Dan as I see it...

1) Unified communications with GMK (at least at first)
2) Running the first group buy

There are plenty of people that are happy to organize group buys if we had better pricing information and such (from #1).   I understand the desire to get off the ground with a good first group buy, but at the same time I'm sure they'd be happy to take as many orders as different people throw at them if money is collected and ready to pay.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like #1 is the most important here, yet most of the discussion is #2.

[tjcaustin]

There are two separate tasks for you and Dan as I see it...

1) Unified communications with GMK (at least at first)
2) Running the first group buy

There are plenty of people that are happy to organize group buys if we had better pricing information and such (from #1).   I understand the desire to get off the ground with a good first group buy, but at the same time I'm sure they'd be happy to take as many orders as different people throw at them if money is collected and ready to pay.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like #1 is the most important here, yet most of the discussion is #2.

I think the reason for that, in part, is they're waiting on communications back from GMK.

[IvanIvanovich]

Right, and you have to be very very specific in every detail to get a quote from them on anything. So I was trying to figure out in some rough sense what something would contain first exactly before I can even get anywhere. So I was thinking we already know mod pack price, so I can submit an inquiry on white/black for the proposed base kit E R T U I O P S D F G H J K L X C V B N, numbers only numpad and for now include the function and nav keys to simplify for a ballpark, then list out all the US/GB/DK/NO/SF keys as an example language pack and see how that goes?

[ZcHuer]

Right, and you have to be very very specific in every detail to get a quote from them on anything. So I was trying to figure out in some rough sense what something would contain first exactly before I can even get anywhere. So I was thinking we already know mod pack price, so I can submit an inquiry on white/black for the proposed base kit E R T U I O P S D F G H J K L X C V B N, numbers only numpad and for now include the function and nav keys to simplify for a ballpark, then list out all the US/GB/DK/NO/SF keys as an example language pack and see how that goes?

Pleast do it, lysol! You are awesome!

[GMC]

@jeroplane
I never claimed a direct correlation but Gartner doesn't track global or national kb sales and the equipment required to use one seemed a reasonable proxy.

Anyways, this is more frustrating than I have time or energy for. I've never claimed that ANSI is not most common on here, my point is that there is a wold beyond the borders of current membership and marginalising national differences is not helpful to growing our userbase.

[Oproer]

How awesome would it be to get a replica of that colored keyset on the first or second page? Do you reckon that is in the range of possibilities for one of the first group buys?

[jeroplane]

@jeroplane
I never claimed a direct correlation but Gartner doesn't track global or national kb sales and the equipment required to use one seemed a reasonable proxy.

Anyways, this is more frustrating than I have time or energy for. I've never claimed that ANSI is not most common on here, my point is that there is a wold beyond the borders of current membership and marginalising national differences is not helpful to growing our userbase.

Fair enough. It's an interesting statistic nonetheless.

How awesome would it be to get a replica of that colored keyset on the first or second page? Do you reckon that is in the range of possibilities for one of the first group buys?

Lysol is a fan of that set, so if he wants it done you can rest assured he will have it done sometime in the future xD

[Shadovved]

I LIKE THAT SET TOO!

[IvanIvanovich]

The typing tutor keyboard with all the different colors? It could be possible to make it technically, but as much as I like it it would be quite a push to get 300 people on board for it I think. Not sure if enough people would want something so busy.
However... if we do my plan of mods/base/language packs you could have a 3 color set if you really wanted to to get something sort of close depending on what colorways are run in the buy.