GMK-electronic make cherry keycap ?

[Alessandro]

I agree with you, but it works both ways, there are some americans on DT just as there are some europeans on GH. What's not to say that if this thread right here was just on DT, that americans would be whining about less support for ANSI? It's a bad example because ANSI is a better layout anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that it'll work more than one way through more than one forum who have very, very different userbases, and communication between them is not going to be the easiest thing in the world.

[IvanIvanovich]

I think there may be a little misunderstanding as to my proposal as well. There will be groups, not just one huge set with every possible key. So for example US ANSI would help with GB and Nordic keys. DE ISO would help with Swiss, Czech, etc. Spanish, Italian, French etc would help each other meet moq and so on. Things that are most closely related keymap wise will help each other only assuming there is enough interest to include a specific language at all.

[Alessandro]

Ah ok! So we can *sort of* pick a language pack?

[Soarer]

yes 50 is still alot, but 350 other people will have to pay extra and have a bunch of useless keys just for that minority. im sure hash can give ideas on more actual numbers since he has run GBs before with ISO layout options etc.

In that example the 350 other people might otherwise get nothing, because the MOQ is 400!

[BimboBB]

yeah but the problem seems to be the communication area. guys whinging about not being included because of ISO etc should be out there spreading the word about this. if most of europe use this then get the word out!

You cannot imagine how people hail to their 10EUR rubberdomes. They have the biggest pc-gamer-systems with newest cpu, gpu etc. etc.. But when it comes to Keyboards, it has to be the cheapest rubbish board you have ever seen.  )

So iam glad that Logitech came out with their G710 now, which will most probably bring a lot of new mechanical keyboard owners in Europe. But than comes the next problem. Convince these people to spend nearly as much as they have paid for their keyboard, just for new caps.  You just can hope that Logitech ****ed up their keys and they will worn out very soon.  (but still its a backlit keyboard )

[IvanIvanovich]

Yes, I am thinking choice of 4 different set, each with a selection of languages. This should help from each set getting too large or expensive and have less 'useless' key to the buyer.

[Zehkul]

Still, I don’t see layouts like French happening, just too many keys that no other layout has.
German and the whole nordic stuff could happen due to them having lots of keys in common, but if it’s still 400 MOQ, not gonna happen.

They’d probably accept smaller orders if they weren’t so busy.

[rayuki]

I think there may be a little misunderstanding as to my proposal as well. There will be groups, not just one huge set with every possible key. So for example US ANSI would help with GB and Nordic keys. DE ISO would help with Swiss, Czech, etc. Spanish, Italian, French etc would help each other meet moq and so on. Things that are most closely related keymap wise will help each other only assuming there is enough interest to include a specific language at all.

ok this clears things up ALOT. makes alot more sense now.

[damorgue]

I still recon it will be hard to hit 400 sets, especially if the language packs don't hit theirs and the base kit looses a portion of its buyers.

[rowdy]

OTOH look at how quickly the Cherry red Esc key at EK is selling!

[pasph]

imho would be better only 1 big EURO kit, i prefer to pay for a bunch of useless iso keys but reach the moq instead to, as usually, pray for the 3 blank iso caps in an ansi GB
Otherwise wait for a Round 5.

[IvanIvanovich]

Each group would have it's own MOQ, so it wouldn't effect the entire buy, just those options if done my way. So say for example with the DK/GB/SF/NO/US group reach the moq, it is safe and would go to production. If the ES/FR/IT/PO group didn't make moq, it would be cut while the rest of the buy would be uneffected. If there was a language set in a group that has too little interest with too high cost, it would be cut from the group and hope the remaining languages can fill in the loss. I feel this kind of compartmentalized approach will make more sense and may be easier to achieve and should be less costly than a monster all EU every key pack.

[pasph]

imho it makes more sense only for DK/GB/SF/NO/US group
Don't worry I'm used to it

[Soarer]

Each group would have it's own MOQ, so it wouldn't effect the entire buy, just those options if done my way.

Have you had any hint yet as to what the MOQ on language kits might be? Or even that they could be lower MOQ than full kits? I'm just trying to gauge what the worst case scenario might be.

OTOH look at how quickly the Cherry red Esc key at EK is selling!

LOL! Hardly comparable!

[IvanIvanovich]

Still working on getting some pricing and other information from GMK on full sets. Just trying to plan out a few scenarios in advance. My best guess from what is known worst case would probably be 500 sets. But that is by no means definite.

[metalliqaz]

Dolch would hit that 

[zulios]

Still, I don’t see layouts like French happening, just too many keys that no other layout has.
German and the whole nordic stuff could happen due to them having lots of keys in common, but if it’s still 400 MOQ, not gonna happen.

[...]

Well, if french is included in another language pack it might make it, if left alone it definitely won't. I think Lysol is right in grouping languages. In the end price will be the determining factor however.

Once we have more info on pricing I'll try to spread the word but honestly most potentially interested people lurk already around here or DT regularly. The comment about people clinging to their cheap boards or not willing to invest into good caps is extremely realistic as well.

[shawn o]

At $100+ per set you think 500 sets can be sold?

Dolch would hit that 

[Alessandro]

Dolch definitely would across GH and DT, it's been sought after by a lot of people for some time.

[tjcaustin]

I would bet that klaxon would make a good run at it, too.  Esp if language packs and real iso options were offered. 

[Shadovved]

I would bet that klaxon would make a good run at it, too.  Esp if language packs and real iso options were offered.

Klaxon AND dolch!

[tjcaustin]

Mmmm dolch red alert.

(This is actually kind of the plan if moq and stuff isn't retarded)

[Shadovved]

Mmmm dolch red alert.

(This is actually kind of the plan if moq and stuff isn't retarded)

I wont mind a chocolate alert too! 

[tjcaustin]

Mmmm dolch red alert.

(This is actually kind of the plan if moq and stuff isn't retarded)

I wont mind a chocolate alert too! 

That sounds too much like Code Brown for me.

[Shadovved]

Mmmm dolch red alert.

(This is actually kind of the plan if moq and stuff isn't retarded)

I wont mind a chocolate alert too! 

That sounds too much like Code Brown for me.

Oh come on, chocolate alert sounds much nicer 

[Alessandro]

We should call it "Holy overflowing cesspool Batman!" Especially if I make a cake for it.

*Deskthority thread references are fun.*

[Shadovved]

We should call it "Holy overflowing cesspool Batman!" Especially if I make a cake for it.

*Deskthority thread references are fun.*

Oh my, me dont like the name of your cake 

Although it sure looks nice, but I ain't buying no cesspool cake.....

[IvanIvanovich]

Mocha Latte.

[baldgye]

Mocha Latte.

if we do a coffee and creme set, we need all the mod's to be in italian... just FYI

[IvanIvanovich]

The mod aren't different, special on Italian is the enter which is labeled Invio, but there is some interesting nav keys on Italian layout.

[baldgye]

The mod aren't different, special on Italian is the enter which is labeled Invio, but there is some interesting nav keys on Italian layout.

I mean though that the text should be even if its in english on italian boards, just becasue, it would be kinda awesome.... though yeah its not something I want that much, but it would be kinda awesome

[rowdy]

Mmmm dolch red alert.

(This is actually kind of the plan if moq and stuff isn't retarded)

I wont mind a chocolate alert too! 

^ This )

[Alessandro]

Italian mods would be pretty cool. I can read them.

[metalliqaz]

Mocha Latte.

if we do a coffee and creme set, we need all the mod's to be in italian... just FYI

Oh man coffee and cream, awesome

[kbdfr]

Original Cherry OEM coffee and cream:

[snoopy]

I like that sad smile next to P and the echap key

[baldgye]

I like that sad smile next to P and the echap key

its sad becasue it needs a moogle kit

[kbdfr]

I like that sad smile next to P and the echap key

its sad becasue it needs a moogle kit

No, it doesn't need anything, it's just perfect as it is   

You bet I'm not going to dissect this perfect vintage keyboard and put the caps on one of those new 35-or-less-% boards - possibly with a green on pink Esc or backlit purple WASD caps or an infantile glow-in-the-dark skull

So no moogle kit needed 

[IvanIvanovich]

Goupil isn't coffee/cream its industrial grey/beige. Goupil/NCR is a nice colorway though and one I would definitely support making new sets in. I have one of Goupil 1861HAU myself, as well as the entire original 286 Golf it goes with. Rare as hell portable, and even more so in US as they were a French machine.

[kbdfr]

Goupil and NCR flavours are (admittedly slightly) different, though.





(Please excuse my poor photographic skills.)

lysol, care to post a pic of (or, il already happened, post a link to) your Goupil keyboard?

[GMC]

its sad because some people would assault it with a moogle kit

FTFY

[Soarer]

EK, if you release any of those sets you WILL be crushing the opertunity for multi legend sets...
Please tell Lysol / Dan your plans, I'm sure they can both keep a secret and can steer this whole project in the right direction.

I don't fully understand what you are suggesting here. I think you are suggesting that if I want to buy a keyboard set from elitekeyboards, or some other keyboard oriented site then I have to get extra keys for Swedish, German, and other languages included. I think a better alternative would be for smaller group buys for just those specific keys that other languages need to enhance other sets. If GMK will not do smaller quantities then they are the bad guy, not an American company wanting to sell English keyboards. It is a nice gesture to try and support more languages but at what point do you stop holding back the majority for the benefit of the minority?

I don't think that's what's being suggested there at all.

And I don't think it's only a problem for multi-legend sets.

Here's the worst case scenario. An interest check starts and gets a good response. A sneaky vendor takes a risk and orders just the core, tenkeyless, set directly. They come up for sale before the group buy even starts collecting money. Sure, it costs more than in the group buy, because of profit margin, but maybe not much more if the GB includes numpad keys (I'm not even considering languages for now). Some people jump ship - they get what they want and it arrives within a couple of days. GB fails to meet the MOQ. Game over.

I'm not saying any particular vendor would do that, but it's a possibility.

somebody explain something to me that i dont think i'm getting.

people are complaining about EK not having language packs and just picking up regular ansi base sets right?

how many people are in need of those language packs? who else is going to pick up the tab to reach the MOQ? or are they going to be added to a base set that most people won't use and don't want to pay for.

I don't know, sounds like complaining to complain to me. I wouldn't expect US vendor to offer other options. Just as I wouldn't expect to find Japanese sets in Germany.
Usual putting the cart before the horse. Relax, and offer constructive ideas for the full set groupbuy in the spring. Hopefully by then we can have all the details ironed out on how it will work and what will be offered so it will go smoothly.
However once again I will kindly ask to take all converstaion not pertaining to this buy into the more general GMK keycap thread.
Thanks.

Everyone seems to find something to complain about, and if they don't then they just complain about the complaining - that's geekhack!

I guess I fall into the latter camp. There's too many strongly worded opinions being thrown around, that I don't think are well thought out - both from US ANSI lovers and from ISO local language lovers.

Fighting really doesn't help build MOQs.

[jdcarpe]

Can't we all just (use US ANSI and) get along?

[kbdfr]

Of course we can get along.
Plan buying ANSI sets and try to motivate us ISO guys to help you meet the MOQ.
A good method would be including caps we actually need

Conversely, I wonder how much you would be interested if we were to offer, say, a moogle kit not containing 2 Alt keycaps, but 1 Alt and 1 AltGr.
Not that much? Well, in that case we would add a second Alt keycap to motivate you.
Mind you, we do not need it, as all European ISO keyboards have 1 Alt and 1 AltGr instead of 2 Alt, but we would add it all the same to take you on board.
And of course we would not expect you to participate if we didn't.

So if you don't worry about what we need, do not expect us to be interested in your stuff.

[BimboBB]

would be great if the vendors would just participate in the groupbuys as they always did. i guess its also for them much more convenient, because more extra stuff would be available and they dont have to take full financial risk for a MOQ of 300/400 sets, which is a quite huge amount.
nobody wants EK & Co. to sell language packs or something. but these language packs will be only possible when you have a big amount of orders which give you space to make some deals with GMK (hopefully), i.e. about language packs.
It was the same with SP, or not? As bigger the order, as more they were willing to do crazy non-standard (ISO) stuff.
Thats why ISO lovers (like me) would prefer to have everybody in one big ship, than in many little boats steering different directions.

[hashbaz]

Most people agree I think that helping out each other is a good idea if it's feasible.  But we can't have a real discussion about including regional keys in the base kit until we know actual numbers: how many keys, how many people will it benefit, what is the extra cost, and how many people are bearing that cost.

[pasph]

You know what's really funny?
GMK is european

[Soarer]

I posted this on DT on 1 Dec...

Of course it would all depend on pricing, and MOQs.

Statistics from R3...

Code: [Select]

avail   |kit                 |qty|cost |keys |description
sold out|STANDARD            |190|$40  |  117|Standard kit Space not incl.!
 2 left |UK                  | 22|$5   |    8|Language kit
in stock|NORDIC              | 20|$16  |   44|Nordic Language kit
 1 left |FR                  | 11|$15  |   29|French Language kit
in stock|ES                  |  7|$14  |   23|Spanish Language kit Where NORDIC included DE, FI, NO, SE, AT, DK, SI.

UK stands out for two reasons: most orders, and least keys!!

Even all language kits together was only just over a quarter of the number of standard (US) kits, and is a total of about 100 keys (although a few would be shared, notably the ISO shift and Enter).

So the calculation isn't just about 'how many people are bearing that cost', it's also about how much does the cost go down with 33% more base kits. Putting that reduction towards the cost of language kits seems only fair, not subsidising (or whatever other communist analogy people might make).

[IvanIvanovich]

Courtesy of 7bit, here is some of the 'extra' keys most of the Euro folks may be interested in. As you can see it is not really that many, and breaking them down into even smaller most closely related packs could also be easily considered.


So lately I have been thinking to organize it like this:
modifer pack sets like what we are doing now,
a base set of common alpha numerics that are the same in every set,
language packs
each orderable as thier own item, and would allow some mix match, like dolch base with olivetti mods... whatever.

[pasph]

Everyone knows that a ES/IT/PT group will never reach a 300 or 400 MOQ so "breaking them down into even smaller most closely related packs" means simply sharing american MOQ with some others europeans