CRT's are better than LCD's.

[ch_123]

Yeah, they made them in red and orange.

IBM even sold some, including a dumb terminal and a couple of luggable PS/2s.

<3

[NamelessPFG]

That monitor's giving me Virtual Boy vision...

Also wouldn't look out-of-place representing an X-Wing's targeting computer.

[hyperlinked]

It reminds me of playing games on my Radio Shack Model-1.

[microsoft windows]

Show Image

<3

EverythingIBM would be drooling over that.

[EverythingIBM]

EverythingIBM would be drooling over that.

Oh, I already have a 1986 Model M -- with LED panel to boot. And it's hooked up to a much better IBM computer.

[microsoft windows]

I thought you'd like the plasma display for your 5150 though.

[EverythingIBM]

I thought you'd like the plasma display for your 5150 though.

I think it only supports colour 9-pin CRTs, unless I'm mistaken. I haven't looked up the specifications for that ISA card in awhile.

The 5160s are the ones that have the monochrome gfx cards: I'm selling them though. I really don't have a use for them... as I don't have the right equipment.
Maybe I shouldn't sell them now (As they can only increase in value), but we'll see. They can't sit in my closet forever.

[microsoft windows]

I think it only supports colour 9-pin CRTs, unless I'm mistaken. I haven't looked up the specifications for that ISA card in awhile.

The 5160s are the ones that have the monochrome gfx cards: I'm selling them though. I really don't have a use for them... as I don't have the right equipment.
Maybe I shouldn't sell them now (As they can only increase in value), but we'll see. They can't sit in my closet forever.

I've heard you can get color graphics cards for them too.

[bhtooefr]

That terminal is a 3290, which is 3270-compatible.

It'll work great with a PS/2 with a P/370, or a later machine with one of the P/390 variants, assuming you've got a channel card and a 3174...

[microsoft windows]

I wonder if you can get a card for a 5150 that would work with that plasma.

[bhtooefr]

I don't believe so, the only cards that will work with it are cards that SERVE terminals, and there's not actually a CARD that does this, just a box that plugs into a card (and the card is microchannel or PCI, not ISA.)

Besides, these are line-mode and page-mode terminals, not character-mode. They wouldn't make sense on a PC, the way they work.

[ch_123]

Shame they never made a screen like that for a 31x1 terminal... you could hook it up to a PC with a serial cable and use a *nix shell on it.

[EverythingIBM]

Bigger problem would be that entire screen is actually a terminal lol.

5150 with colour, 5160s with monochrome? Someone's been doing hardware swapping I suspect?

As for value, it's kind of a funny thing. Those machines are worth literally nothing to many people. The people they mean something to are few and far between, and a good number of them are too far away to ship to (both in cost and because of the risk of hard drive death in transit).

If someone was swapping hardware (and I am sure of it as only one of the original screws was left out of all three of those computers), how can there be two monochrome and one colour? You'd think there would be two colour ones. Unless one of the 5150s is not there anymore. Some of the hardware was missing as there was only one keyboard (thankfully the older one to the 5150 which just says "personal computer"). Wonder where the monitors are...

EDIT: why would you want to put a colour card in an older computer anyways? Even a better question: why would you buy a 5160 with monochrome cards?

Someone already contacted me about the 5160s (yeah, fairly fast). And they don't have HDDs, just two 5" floppy drives (the smaller version, two stacked up). Where a HDD *should* be, it's just the default bezel blocker... or whatever you want to call it.

[EverythingIBM]

Shame they never made a screen like that for a 31x1 terminal... you could hook it up to a PC with a serial cable and use a *nix shell on it.

Shame they didn't make a LOT of things. It's like IBM teases you. And then smacks you in the face laughing that you'll never get it.
And then sell everything to a chinese manufacturer.

[8_INCH_FLOPPY]

If you're going to spend +$1000 on a display, why not get a projector?
*Hides behind chair*

[NamelessPFG]

If you're going to spend +$1000 on a display, why not get a projector?
*Hides behind chair*

Because front projectors need a good, dark room. If there's any ambient light in there, the image quality just goes down the gutter...if you can see anything.

Rear projectors, on the other hand...I haven't ruled them out, but mostly because they're the only way I can get a DLP-based display (three-chip, hopefully, because I cannot stand the rainbow effect of single-chip DLP with a color wheel) without running into that big issue with front projectors.

(I do have a rear projection display already, but it's CRT-based. Heavy as hell, has suffered from a bit of burn-in that looks jarring in 16:9, and worst of all, it loses convergence all the damn time. I don't know if all rear-projection CRTs are like that, but it sure makes me favor direct-view aperture grille ones when given the choice, size be damned.)

...Oh crap, I just remembered about the high bulb prices as well, as if the projectors themselves weren't expensive enough.

[EverythingIBM]

If you're going to spend +$1000 on a display, why not get a projector?
*Hides behind chair*

My school had spare projects, but I didn't want any of them. At first my teacher said he had IBM ones (upon which I went bezerk), but he was mistaken. Then came the sadness.... the woe...

Projectors are okay, but I find them too washed out (plus the bulbs are extremely expensive and like to die often). I like 19" or perhaps 20" is the best for a computer monitor. Anything more is unecessary. Your eyes can only see so much at a time.

*runs behind a wall of 5160s*

[EverythingIBM]

Because front projectors need a good, dark room. If there's any ambient light in there, the image quality just goes down the gutter...if you can see anything.

Rear projectors, on the other hand...I haven't ruled them out, but mostly because they're the only way I can get a DLP-based display (three-chip, hopefully, because I cannot stand the rainbow effect of single-chip DLP with a color wheel) without running into that big issue with front projectors.

(I do have a rear projection display already, but it's CRT-based. Heavy as hell, has suffered from a bit of burn-in that looks jarring in 16:9, and worst of all, it loses convergence all the damn time. I don't know if all rear-projection CRTs are like that, but it sure makes me favor direct-view aperture grille ones when given the choice, size be damned.)

...Oh crap, I just remembered about the high bulb prices as well, as if the projectors themselves weren't expensive enough.

Awww you beat me to it.

[bhtooefr]

Oh, and the 5150 could be ordered with CGA, whereas the 5160 could be ordered with MDA.

MDA was cheaper, and had higher text quality. (IIRC, CGA was 640x200 in 80 column text mode, whereas MDA was 720x350.)

[NamelessPFG]

Just scored a Sun GDM-5410 for $10, courtesy of craigslist.

Didn't know the model name at first, just that it was some Sun-branded 21" aperture-grille CRT. Turned out to be another FD Trinitron G1 monitor like the Dell P1110 I already had (was secretly hoping for a Diamondtron NF, just for something different) and braced for the worst.

Lots of green, but the OSD's Color Return fixed most of it, as well as the high G2 brightness. The top edge was also convex, but a degauss and warm-up seem to have solved that as well.

No signs of blooming during cold start, focus loss, or popping (both visible and audible), either. My P1110 already randomly suffers from that. Not a good sign.

Only things I don't like so far:

-This one has some obvious scratches in the middle of the screen, at least enough to cut through the anti-glare layer. By comparison, the P1110 only had a few nicks near the bottom edge. For $10, I can't really complain too much.
-The P1110 has two VGA inputs, neither hardwired. The GDM-5410 has a non-hardwired DE-15 input...and a hardwired DB13W3 input that I have no use for since I don't have any Sun, Silicon Graphics, or IBM RISC boxes around here.
-The P1110's ECS port (a TTL port needed to use WinDAS) can be accessed just by prying a little cover out of the back. Not so on the GDM-5410; looks like I'll have to remove the whole back casing just to get to it.
-The P1110 has no qualms with me trying to force higher refresh rates on it. The GDM-5410 outright refuses-it's even given me "out of range" messages just from settings the EDID permits! (1280x1024 112 Hz, to be specific.)

Despite all of that, the GDM-5410 is going to become my new primary monitor until I can figure out how to fix the P1110 properly, doing parts swaps if necessary...but I simply do not feel comfortable messing around in a high-voltage device without prior experience or training for obvious reasons.

[Lanx]

don't really care of the crt/lcd debate, i choose lcd cuz well i wall mount everything, and it took almost 10 years for crappy lcds to almost come to the quality of basic crts... but
spathi?

[microsoft windows]

Let's just say that it wouldn't be easy to wall-mount a CRT.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I have seen many wall mounts for CRT TVs, so I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to wall mount a CRT monitor.  Or just cut a hole in the wall and make the screen stick out about a half an inch.  It would look just like an LCD if you had a flat-screened CRT.

[NamelessPFG]

don't really care of the crt/lcd debate, i choose lcd cuz well i wall mount everything, and it took almost 10 years for crappy lcds to almost come to the quality of basic crts... but
spathi?

I'm not against LCDs (as my earlier posts here show), but the good ones are out of my budget and I don't need to wall-mount anything.

Also, bonus points for you knowing what my avatar is. I use it as a way of expressing what my personal greatest game of all time is, and which race in said game amuses me the most. (And recruiting Fwiffo and his Eluder in the beginning makes the early game much, MUCH easier, though battles can be tedious with the way I fly them.)

[Lanx]

http://www.algorithm.com.au/gallery/backgrounds/bomb_nspath_jpg_1280x1024

notice the butt missle!

i think i replayed it back in 07 when i became public domain, and so many video games seem to take cues from the game i can't play though a game w/o wondering how many ppl of the dev team were affected by starcon2. galacticiv2 is blatently stating it's an homage to starcon2, just recently mass effect 2, the halo trilogy and now star craft 2 all seem to have the same, now generation fighting for precursor relics of unimaginable power, heck i just rewatched babylon5 on hulu and it's all reminiscent of starcon2. I also remember when my young fragile teenage heart sank when it was released and i started playing starcon3 =/

[Mercen_505]

(And recruiting Fwiffo and his Eluder in the beginning makes the early game much, MUCH easier, though battles can be tedious with the way I fly them.)

I was always kinda partial to the Zoq-fot-pik or Pkunk when it came to getting my yuks. Once I got some Yehats I could pretty much tear anything a new anus, except for a few problem units. The balancing on that game was sooooo tight.

[EverythingIBM]

don't really care of the crt/lcd debate, i choose lcd cuz well i wall mount everything, and it took almost 10 years for crappy lcds to almost come to the quality of basic crts... but
spathi?

What surprises me is that people don't use a combo of both LCD and CRT. I think that's the best way to go.

[Lanx]

What surprises me is that people don't use a combo of both LCD and CRT. I think that's the best way to go.

how so and why?

[RoboKrikit]

What surprises me is that people don't use a combo of both LCD and CRT. I think that's the best way to go.

I have a 24" LCD for modern game consoles and general computer use.  I use a Sony GDM-FW900 CRT for photo editing and anything that might require over 60Hz for some reason.

For old-school games I keep around a 20" Toshiba SDTV CRT with YPbPr inputs; gotta have a low-res SDTV for 240p systems like SNES.

Honestly I hate CRTs... they're cumbersome and take up too much space.  But I already have them and nothing else does the job better (yet).

[NamelessPFG]

What surprises me is that people don't use a combo of both LCD and CRT. I think that's the best way to go.

I would, but I can't afford a Wacom Cintiq. (I'd most likely have it right below my main monitor-likely the Sun GDM-5410 mentioned earlier-where it's easy to write and draw on. It would also make a great auxiliary monitor for MFDs and such when gaming.)

I have a 24" LCD for modern game consoles and general computer use.  I use a Sony GDM-FW900 CRT for photo editing and anything that might require over 60Hz for some reason.

For old-school games I keep around a 20" Toshiba SDTV CRT with YPbPr inputs; gotta have a low-res SDTV for 240p systems like SNES.

Honestly I hate CRTs... they're cumbersome and take up too much space.  But I already have them and nothing else does the job better (yet).

Oh, you lucky bastard. I haven't so much as seen an FW900/FD Trinitron G1W in person, much less had the chance to buy one.

As for CRTs, I use them because they're what currently fit my wants and needs best. Once something shows up that preserves a good CRT's advantages while getting rid of the disadvantages, I'll switch. (Three-chip Laser DLP, perhaps? Not that I'll ever see that in a computer monitor...)

[EverythingIBM]

how so and why?

Because CRTs are good for older games and other things that need lower resolutions -- I just hate LCDs running in anything but their native resolution.
But sometimes I want a little more accuracy, LCDs *can* be more sharp than CRTs because they don't dynamically change... but also means they become UNSHARP when not in a native resolution.
Although for fun I sometimes load DOS games on big TVs... the graphics aren't half bad. It's almost more immersing.

My brother in law's 150 lb Sony Trinitron TV just died.

Anybody want it?

Or know how to get rid of it?

Um... computer-lab-in-basement was looking for a new TV.

I would, but I can't afford a Wacom Cintiq. (I'd most likely have it right below my main monitor-likely the Sun GDM-5410 mentioned earlier-where it's easy to write and draw on. It would also make a great auxiliary monitor for MFDs and such when gaming.)

Oh, you lucky bastard. I haven't so much as seen an FW900/FD Trinitron G1W in person, much less had the chance to buy one.

As for CRTs, I use them because they're what currently fit my wants and needs best. Once something shows up that preserves a good CRT's advantages while getting rid of the disadvantages, I'll switch. (Three-chip Laser DLP, perhaps? Not that I'll ever see that in a computer monitor...)

I'm sure you could buy a standard LCD that's 20" with a fairly high res, AND also use CRTs as well.

I have a 24" LCD for modern game consoles and general computer use.  I use a Sony GDM-FW900 CRT for photo editing and anything that might require over 60Hz for some reason.

For old-school games I keep around a 20" Toshiba SDTV CRT with YPbPr inputs; gotta have a low-res SDTV for 240p systems like SNES.

Honestly I hate CRTs... they're cumbersome and take up too much space.  But I already have them and nothing else does the job better (yet).

CRTs under 19" aren't that bad at all in terms of space. But beyond that, I can see it may be a little annoying.

There will probably be nothing that will be able to do a better job for older games (something that can surpass CRTs? yes. But allow compatibility for legacy stuff? no). Especially because new HD TVs don't take NES consoles into consideration!

[Lanx]

^----
Those are nice arguements but really having crt's around now are for very specific purposes and i can only really think of 3 which you listed
1. dos games
2. photo/graphics
3. something funky that needs different native resolution

heck maybe even old school crts will resurface as being great for 3d gaming(cuz 3d gaming needs 120hz and like 2 projectors and 4 lcds are able to do 120hz really) or that might just be totally off base.

idk i had headaches usings a lcd/crt combo, i didn't b4 when i just had either a lcd or crt. i had an old school panasonic (the one with seperate yr/br whatever 5 connections) and then i replaced it w/ lcd. then i decided to dual screen it back w/ the crt and i started having headaches. I guess i just couldn't switch looking at a crt and lcd screen at the same time.
this was alleviated when i switched entirely to lcd and i haven't looked back. Actually just this december i threw out my trusty 15in tv from 1992 that i lugged across so many states and used as a tv all this time. (i have a projector setup for the living room). Honestly that thing was so cumbersome but it was a trooper! and yes, regular SD tv looked like $hit on a regular 32in tv (which is now being taken care of by HD channels).

Heck my fiance even buys old nes games w/ the wii and they look pretty good (i think they upscale the old games or something).

[Lanx]

My brother in law's 150 lb Sony Trinitron TV just died.

Anybody want it?

Or know how to get rid of it?

my soon to be bro in law, got one of those (or even bigger?) 5 years ago and he lives in a basement. Took 4 guys who all work out daily to transport that thing down the basement and all of them were in pain.

[bhtooefr]

I actually do run a combo.

My employer gave me the choice between two 19" 1280x1024 LCDs, two of any CRT they had, or a combo.

One LCD in vertical orientation for displaying the break/fix ticket queue, one 17" Trinitron running at 1600x1200 for everything else. (I wanted bigger with more resolution, but that's all I could get that worked.)

[EverythingIBM]

I actually do run a combo.

My employer gave me the choice between two 19" 1280x1024 LCDs, two of any CRT they had, or a combo.

One LCD in vertical orientation for displaying the break/fix ticket queue, one 17" Trinitron running at 1600x1200 for everything else. (I wanted bigger with more resolution, but that's all I could get that worked.)

I'm usually the opposite, have my LCDs doing the high res, and the CRTs for the low res. Lol, you should bring a T221 to work. Most people will think it's a thick big heavy old piece of junk I presume.

Speaking of vertical LCDs, I found the holy grail of verticalness:


Sadly, only 1024x768 -- but that's OK, I'll run it as a second monitor vertically for text or something. I really need a twisty stand like that. The best part has to be the VGA/DVI inputs go into the bottom of the stand, rather than in the screen itself.

[bhtooefr]

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to bring hardware in and attach it to the network (or anything that is attached to the network.) I'm on a crappy rubber dome, too.

And, besides, my work machine is an OptiPlex GX620 with integrated graphics. Pretty sure it'd take one look at the T221 and crap itself in fear at pushing that many pixels.

Oh, and everyone there knows of the T221.

[Lanx]

if you really like vertical goodness, i'd suggest a monitor arm. i personally have 2 ergotron wall mounted and they move as smooth as butter and do swivel to portrait when i feel like. (i change my monitor area every day to suit what i feel like). Think of it less like an airplane food tray and more like a robot assembly line arm in terms of fluid of motion.

[microsoft windows]

 one 17" Trinitron running at 1600x1200 for everything else. (I wanted bigger with more resolution, but that's all I could get that worked.)

Gosh...I've found text on 1600x1200's a little small on my 21" IBM monitor (Which runs that resolution at 100Hz).

[bhtooefr]

The 17" monitor is only running at 65 Hz... it sucks, but not as badly as 1280x1024.

(And, my daily driver is a ThinkPad with an IDTech IAQX10N LCD swapped in. 2048x1536, 15". And when that's not enough, I've got an IBM T221, 3840x2400, 22.2".)

[NamelessPFG]

I'm sure you could buy a standard LCD that's 20" with a fairly high res, AND also use CRTs as well.

Unfortunately, my income isn't exactly regular or consistent, and probably won't be for the time I'm in college/university.

Furthermore, if it's an LCD, I expect it to be a Hydis or IPS panel of some sort. I've been rather spoiled and can't go back to TN now. (I only put up with TN in my current notebook because of the specs it got me for $550 and because I didn't know the screen type used...and I may have to put up with TN again in my next one if it's still the only convertible with dedicated graphics and within my budget.)

I could probably afford a 24" IPS panel (maybe even a 30" 2560x1600 one used) if I started pawning off all my gaming-related stuff, but I don't want to do that.

[bhtooefr]

You can get a 21.5" 1920x1080 IPS panel for $200... http://www.ecrater.com/p/8532997/dell-ultrasharp-u2211h-215-inch-flat

[RoboKrikit]

There will probably be nothing that will be able to do a better job for older games (something that can surpass CRTs? yes. But allow compatibility for legacy stuff? no). Especially because new HD TVs don't take NES consoles into consideration!

Luckily there's a few scaling devices out there oriented towards legacy gaming, the XRGB-3 being one of them.  When I have to give up my CRTs one day, I'll probably pick up something like that.  They aren't too easy to come by though.

[Manyak]

By the way, does anyone know if storing a CRT in non-climate controlled room is bad for it (100F/37C in summer, below 0C in winter)?

I've got a like-new, barely used GDM-FW900 locked up in a sealed anvil case, so moisture won't get in and out but the temperature will sure go through.

Unfortunately, my income isn't exactly regular or consistent, and probably won't be for the time I'm in college/university.

Furthermore, if it's an LCD, I expect it to be a Hydis or IPS panel of some sort. I've been rather spoiled and can't go back to TN now. (I only put up with TN in my current notebook because of the specs it got me for $550 and because I didn't know the screen type used...and I may have to put up with TN again in my next one if it's still the only convertible with dedicated graphics and within my budget.)

I could probably afford a 24" IPS panel (maybe even a 30" 2560x1600 one used) if I started pawning off all my gaming-related stuff, but I don't want to do that.

Honestly, if you're not using your notebook for anything major, TN is just fine (and this is a FW900/3008WFP user talking). Laptop screens are [usually] small enough to negate the viewing angle problem (where it doesn't look uniform), and I dunno about you but I try not to do too much photoshopping on a trackpoint or touchpad. And the fact that they're also lighter and use less power than IPS panels also works in your favor.

But yeah, dell has some nice e-IPS panels for pretty cheap, if you really care to replace your CRTs that much (if you've got aperture grilles, I wouldn't ).

[itlnstln]

By the way, does anyone know if storing a CRT in non-climate controlled room is bad for it (100F/37C in summer, below 0C in winter)?

The heat, probably not.  When in comes to computers, monitors, etc., they typically operate at those temperatures, so (in theory) the components are built to withstand them.  The cold, on the other hand, I don't know, but as long as the container is well-sealed, I don't think it would be a problem unless the glass were to crack.

That said, I typically leave my work laptop in my car in the Texas heat, and nothing has happened to it or the last one yet (unfortunately).

[EverythingIBM]

if you really like vertical goodness, i'd suggest a monitor arm. i personally have 2 ergotron wall mounted and they move as smooth as butter and do swivel to portrait when i feel like. (i change my monitor area every day to suit what i feel like). Think of it less like an airplane food tray and more like a robot assembly line arm in terms of fluid of motion.

I'm sure they'll exceed $80 (as that's the price for both shipping and the monitor itself). Plus I'd have to buy another LCD anyways. Not to mention, that monitor will just be so easy to setup and have everything right out of the box. I also plan to sit it on my desk beside beside my current LCD: having a wall mount wouldn't be ideal in such a situation.

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to bring hardware in and attach it to the network (or anything that is attached to the network.) I'm on a crappy rubber dome, too.

And, besides, my work machine is an OptiPlex GX620 with integrated graphics. Pretty sure it'd take one look at the T221 and crap itself in fear at pushing that many pixels.

Oh, and everyone there knows of the T221.

That's disgusting, integrated graphics... I like workstations that don't have *any* integrated VGA ports on the mobo.

Unfortunately, my income isn't exactly regular or consistent, and probably won't be for the time I'm in college/university.

Furthermore, if it's an LCD, I expect it to be a Hydis or IPS panel of some sort. I've been rather spoiled and can't go back to TN now. (I only put up with TN in my current notebook because of the specs it got me for $550 and because I didn't know the screen type used...and I may have to put up with TN again in my next one if it's still the only convertible with dedicated graphics and within my budget.)

I could probably afford a 24" IPS panel (maybe even a 30" 2560x1600 one used) if I started pawning off all my gaming-related stuff, but I don't want to do that.

It's a lot easier to find an IPS than you think for cheap (you just have to look, the internet is huge). But standard LCDs are good enough for me (as long as they're matte, with low brightness).

Gosh...I've found text on 1600x1200's a little small on my 21" IBM monitor (Which runs that resolution at 100Hz).

My 17" ones (including the hated G70) can all run 1280x1024. Which is fairly decent... probably nothing special, but a lot of 17" CRTs I had couldn't.

[Lanx]

I'm sure they'll exceed $80 (as that's the price for both shipping and the monitor itself). Plus I'd have to buy another LCD anyways. Not to mention, that monitor will just be so easy to setup and have everything right out of the box. I also plan to sit it on my desk beside beside my current LCD: having a wall mount wouldn't be ideal in such a situation.

Only if you really want a monitor arm you can shop for deals on ebay, all my ergotron wall mount and desk mount(i deskmount 2 ergotrons for the fiance) have been around 60ish (i look for freeshipping too as sometimes they charge like 20-25bucks for shipping, 8bucks is ok and fair).
i dont' love ergotron, and there are plenty of other monitor arm manufacturers that are cheaper, i've just have experience w/ them and don't want to use anything else.

[EverythingIBM]

Only if you really want a monitor arm you can shop for deals on ebay, all my ergotron wall mount and desk mount(i deskmount 2 ergotrons for the fiance) have been around 60ish (i look for freeshipping too as sometimes they charge like 20-25bucks for shipping, 8bucks is ok and fair).
i dont' love ergotron, and there are plenty of other monitor arm manufacturers that are cheaper, i've just have experience w/ them and don't want to use anything else.

That's not too bad, this guy probably spent a lot though.

[Lanx]

sent my fiance to cancun w/ her girlfriends so she has the nice camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1leKAi-LRQ

i don't think i can explain how adjustable of a work area it is, and can only show it.

[EverythingIBM]

sent my fiance to cancun w/ her girlfriends so she has the nice camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1leKAi-LRQ

i don't think i can explain how adjustable of a work area it is, and can only show it.

That's actually really cool! What do you have your keyboard and mouse mounted on?

[Lanx]

the same monitor mount, except in keyboard tray form
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HWRMJ8/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000E8Z13O&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0JDHJ3TCYMNP1SQXAYJP