Author Topic: Pair of IBM XTs  (Read 3492 times)

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Offline 0100010

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Pair of IBM XTs
« on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 08:57:31 »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191362753692

Not the best price in the world - but anyone wanting to get one for the XTant project, could pick up both and maybe sell the other.
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Offline berserkfan

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 09:20:50 »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191362753692

Not the best price in the world - but anyone wanting to get one for the XTant project, could pick up both and maybe sell the other.
LUckily I bought my XTs long before I heard of the Xtant project. Prices are now going up and its gonna suck.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:12:26 »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191362753692

Not the best price in the world - but anyone wanting to get one for the XTant project, could pick up both and maybe sell the other.
LUckily I bought my XTs long before I heard of the Xtant project. Prices are now going up and its gonna suck.

I'm slightly upset I sold mine. I got it for pretty cheap and sold it to help pay for my F122s which eventually led to getting my Kishsaver, so no complaints there, I just wish I had it still...

I'm trying to look for alternative methods using other parts, but we'll see how that goes. For instance, if we weren't concerned with changing the M's layout, we could try using that as a base instead of sticking to trying to use F parts to build up from. We could even reuse the case. Most of our parts could come from Unicomp, or Model Ms. The only problem we'd need to still solve is the flipper issue. Maybe a thin, moldable plastic, attached to existing M flippers and painted with conductive paint? Otherwise, I have potential access to a couple of public maker labs that might have some ideas (and resources) to help.
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Offline 0100010

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:35:27 »
I'm watching this thread with interest : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63889.0

A new source of capacitive pivot plates / hammers / flippies (whatever they are called) is really all that is needed for a whole world of capacitive buckling spring bliss.

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 16:57:12 »

changing the M's layout


I have always held that Model Fs in straight-standard-Model M and straight-SSK layouts would be the twin Holy Grails of buckling spring nirvana. Or is that the twin peaks of Kilimanjaro?

Re-using existing standard cases would be a bonus, particularly since standard M cases are so cheap and plentiful.

And Unicomp makes black M cases with Windows keys.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 17:40:13 »

changing the M's layout


I have always held that Model Fs in straight-standard-Model M and straight-SSK layouts would be the twin Holy Grails of buckling spring nirvana. Or is that the twin peaks of Kilimanjaro?

Re-using existing standard cases would be a bonus, particularly since standard M cases are so cheap and plentiful.

And Unicomp makes black M cases with Windows keys.

Is there any reason we can't just use the barrel plate from Unicomp/Ms? Do Model F flip plates not fit? If they do fit, or we modify the design to fit, we eliminate the need for boards with non-custom layouts to need barrels made and metal top plates.

[Edit]: I'll be following that post closely as well, now that I'm aware of it. Let's hope they can make the parts for us.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:32:20 by Aer Fixus »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 18:46:47 »

Is there any reason we can't just use the barrel plate from Unicomp/Ms?


In my opinion, the steel front plate of the Model F is the single most significant component for its feel.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:24:19 »
Is there any reason we can't just use the barrel plate from Unicomp/Ms? Do Model F flip plates not fit? If they do fit, or we modify the design to fit, we eliminate the need for boards with non-custom layouts to need barrels made and metal top plates.

[Edit]: I'll be following that post closely as well, now that I'm aware of it. Let's hope they can make the parts for us.

don't fit, but if we are making a new design, might as well make them fit, but the best answer is IBM F original separate barrels so we can do any layout.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:27:18 »
Is there any reason we can't just use the barrel plate from Unicomp/Ms?
In my opinion, the steel front plate of the Model F is the single most significant component for its feel.
For the sound, sure. I think the spring might have as much impact on the feel.

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:36:53 »

Is there any reason we can't just use the barrel plate from Unicomp/Ms?


In my opinion, the steel front plate of the Model F is the single most significant component for its feel.

Very good point. I've not thought all that much about that. I've always accounted it to the heavier pivot plate and lack of membrane/rubber layers. On an F, the pivot plate only ever touches hard surfaces, so it moves smoothly and without resistance. On an M, there is pressure against the soft and clingy surface of the rubber mat and membrane layers which causes friction on the flipper and makes a heavier, less crisp keypress. Although, now that you've brought it up, I'm sure it's a combination of a lot of things.

The plate will also certainly add weight which will be nice in general to prevent sliding on desks and such. The only problem is that if we use Model M cases, the top two nubs that hold the plate in place will be much more likely to break if ever shipped as a pre-assembled unit. A couple of old Ms I purchased had them broken off already with the M as "light" as it is comparatively. That is, of course, looking too far ahead. We need to have keyboards to exist before we even consider shipping them...

don't fit, but if we are making a new design, might as well make them fit, but the best answer is IBM F original separate barrels so we can do any layout.

Good to know, I suppose. If we make a new design, it would be nice to have them fit an M barrel plate to open the possibility of using one for reduced cost at the loss of a bit of the Model F feel.

And yes, for custom layouts, individual barrels is by far the best method. However, if we can modify the design to accommodate more possibilities without increasing the cost of the part, it will be worth it. It might even lower costs for those who want it. For instance, an Xtant using the custom metal front plate might be $250 or more, but without the labor of cutting and bending the plates, someone could use a Model M for parts and assemble it themselves for $100 in parts (numbers just made up for example). It won't be the superior typing experience, but it will be a lower barrier for entry.

[Edit]: I'm not sure how much effort the plate manufacturing will take/cost. If it's not all that much for someone, somewhere, I'm much less opposed to using a custom plate. My only concern is if the plates alone cost like $75, that's a really big price jump that might prevent some from trying it out.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 October 2014, 19:44:14 by Aer Fixus »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 20:43:52 »
The Model F has multiple steel plates, some of which are pressed together in a complex tension/compression relationship which, I believe, produces the very lively springiness of its action.

The Model M, in contrast, has a thin steel plate with an on-laid plastic barrel assembly deadened by a rubber blanket, which causes it to feel quite "dead" in comparison.

If the vibrant life energy of the Model F cannot be recaptured in the modern version, then why bother?

Just my opinion.
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline Aer Fixus

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 13 October 2014, 22:26:43 »
The Model F has multiple steel plates, some of which are pressed together in a complex tension/compression relationship which, I believe, produces the very lively springiness of its action.

The Model M, in contrast, has a thin steel plate with an on-laid plastic barrel assembly deadened by a rubber blanket, which causes it to feel quite "dead" in comparison.

If the vibrant life energy of the Model F cannot be recaptured in the modern version, then why bother?

Just my opinion.

I personally don't think that the top plate makes that big of a difference in the feel, but this also isn't the kind of thing that can be proven right or wrong unless it's tried. If it isn't tried and we simply go with the metal top plate, that's fine. I'm going to pick the board with full metal construction, anyway.

I am, however, considering the idea that if we offer a less superior but cheaper option, that more people would be able to purchase the board and we would be able to push the project further with the increased sales (more parts from signature plastics so they continue to produce for us, larger/cheaper PCB orders. More "publicity" and community knowledge of the project because more people have them. Stuff like that). For many, the slightly improved feel, the NKRO and the fact that it's community made would be enough to buy an Xtant over a Model M if we can place it in their price range. If substituting these parts doesn't substantially reduce the cost, I also agree that there is no point to even trying this method as it would simply be an inferior version and would have no merits. I have seen people toy with the idea of making an NKRO Model M, though. These people wouldn't care as much about the feel as we do and as long as they got their NKRO buckling springs, they'd be happy. There is an audience that would enjoy the Xtant for more reasons than what we want it for. Plus, adding more options* won't take away the version that hardcore Model F fans want.

[Edit]: *adding this as an option would entail modifying the flip plates to work on a Model M barrel plate is addition to working in Model F barrels. It would also mean creating a PCB design that allows for placement on the Model M plate and frame (holes for bolts). If this isn't possible or feasible, my idea has already hit a brick wall and further discussion is probably moot.

This is also just my opinion. I am not actually helping create the Xtant, so ultimately I'm just an idea guy with no real say.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 October 2014, 22:39:15 by Aer Fixus »
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Offline dgreekstallion

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 10:31:27 »
A Model F with a Model M layout and size sounds divine.
Recent keyboard fanatic.

Model F-122 convert.

Offline 0100010

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Re: Pair of IBM XTs
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 October 2014, 21:37:42 »
A 62 key Kishsaver clone, or a 60 key HHKB clone, or a Unicomp 103 clone, or a 108, or 118.... all in capacitive buckling spring goodness.
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