I Want New Monitors

[CaptainKirk]

I use two old 17" CRT monitors (1024x768) for my PC (Linux with Xfce). I want to upgrade to LCD. Why?

1. I think if I get good ones, they will be better on my eyes.
2. I want more screen space.

The problem is that I am used to the old style non-wide screens, i.e. 4x3 ratio. New wide screens are of course 10:16 or some 9:16 I think. I want to keep two screens, so I think two wide ones will be TOO wide. I think taller is better also because then I can see more code. Most code is not very wide.

Samsung does make very nice 19" LCDs that are 4x3. They are expensive (at least $200 each) but they appear to have very good specs.

I thought also perhaps of taking wide screens and turning them sideways--I have seen photos of such setups. Then perhaps I could get two 21" LCDs and have both sideways--I definitely need the two monitors to match each other. Then I can open a window "full desktop" across both or drag between and not get lost off the top of one etc. So if I had two 21" that's a lot more space than 2 19".

The guy at the store said that if I want a 21" that has an adjustable stand (i.e. can be vertical instead of horizontal) then for just a bit more, I could get 23" from the same company. I think, though, that a 23" screen set vertically would be too tall.

So I'm not sure what to do. Any advice for a geek like me?

[Shuki]

Depends what you are looking for. If you want good response time or colour and image quality (both of which favour buying another CRT) or if you are only using them for coding a widescreen LCD should suffice. However I suggest having a look at the widescreen monitors before going for a 4:3 LCD or even worse 5:4 to see if you could get used to it. I never like vertical monitors but that's just my opinion.

[spolia optima]

I wouldn't recommend a TN panel. IPS monitors are much better on your eyes because they can accurately represent colors without being too bright. TN panels are usually far too bright and washed out. Snoop around for a deal somewhere, see if you can't pick up a 22" IPS panel under $200. That's what I did, and I couldn't be happier.

[Shuki]

If someone really cared about good image quality they would surely totally overlook LCDs and find a decent CRT instead.

[CaptainKirk]

In Israel you can't purchase a new CRT--no one sells them.

I just program, that's right. I put my code in one monitor and the browser in another (I make web sites) or I put Firefox in one and Firebug in the other. I like two full screens--one wide one is more like 1.5 than 2.

Someone did give me recently a cheap 19" LCD that he wasn't using but it's such low quality I can't even use it. With brightness on ZERO I could look at it, but a careful comparison with my (at least 7-year-old) CRT shows that the LCD is not very clear. I open a shell and examine white letters on a black background and find that the CRT seems solid white but the (cheap) LCD has tiny black lines running through the white letters.

Now it's sitting in the corner, with my old PC.

[HaaTa]

At my last job I had 2 20" Dell Trinitrons and a 22" LCD (also Dell). I always had to wear shorts to work because it was 5 degrees warmer in my cubicle than anywhere else in the office.

My eyes thank me that I ditched the CRTs and went to a strictly LCD setup (low refresh rates kill my eyes, and it costs enough already for my damn prescription).

Crappy LCDs can be bad, but crappy CRTs are worse.

I also got a 20" wide screen (16:10) a while back with a monitor arm. Having it in portrait mode (vertical) is awesome.
I also thought it would've been too tall, until I started using it.

[timw4mail]

These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825

[hyperlinked]

I second HaaTa. So long as you don't need to view anything at non-native resolution, if you get a good LCD monitor, you won't miss your CRT except on a really cold day when the heat might do you some good.

I wouldn't call $200 for a monitor expensive if it's a good monitor. Samsung makes some excellent inexpensive LCD monitors. I've owned two Samsungs and currently have one 23" SyncMaster next to a 23" Apple Cinema Display. I like it almost as much as my Apple monitor and it cost a fraction of what that thing cost. The only reason why my Apple monitor is still my primary monitor is because the pixel size is bigger on that monitor so it's a little easier on my eyes when I'm on my 13th hour of staring at code.

[In Stereo!]

These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825

IMO this + one of the old CRTs.

You'd be passing from 768px to 1050px, so the upgrade is noticable. The portrait mode is IMO usable only if you plan to tile more monitors or use this display as the secondary with a 30'' or the like.

[spolia optima]

These are great monitors, bright, but not washed out, and perfect for a vertical display: http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=corp&sku=320-7825

+1

I bought two of these, and recently trimmed it down to one. Best monitor I've ever owned (I'm not the kind of guy that spends $1000+ on a monitor, but I still care about quality)

[Buckling_Summer]

I own a Samsung SyncMaster 2493 HM and I am satisfied with it.
Maybe If I had 2 x 22'' with IPS panel it would be better !!!

[spolia optima]

That's a 24" SPVA panel, correct?

[Shawn Stanford]

I remember hearing somewhere that CRTs ionize dust particles and some of them end up shooting into your eyeballs at near-light velocities (or something like that), contributing to eye fatigue. After 25+ years of staring at CRTs, I went over to LCDs and I couldn't be happier.

[timw4mail]

I remember hearing somewhere that CRTs ionize dust particles and some of them end up shooting into your eyeballs at near-light velocities (or something like that), contributing to eye fatigue. After 25+ years of staring at CRTs, I went over to LCDs and I couldn't be happier.

No, that's just how they electrostatically attract dust. The eyestrain is due to the refresh rate, and the inherent flashing refresh of the CRT mechanism.

[timw4mail]

I own a Samsung SyncMaster 2493 HM and I am satisfied with it.
Maybe If I had 2 x 22'' with IPS panel it would be better !!!

Really, as long as it isn't a TN display, it's nice. IPS is the best all around, but VA is right in the middle.

[hyperlinked]

No, that's just how they electrostatically attract dust. The eyestrain is due to the refresh rate, and the inherent flashing refresh of the CRT mechanism.

I don't care what really happens. I'll take Shawn's story. That's what it feels like.

My eyes wrote me a thank you note when I moved away from CRTs.

[CaptainKirk]

My eyes wrote me a thank you note when I moved to a CRT.

I presume you meant LCD not CRT.

I have learned a lot now about TN and IPS. Seems TN is the cheapest, IPS the most expensive yet best, and the others (MVA, PVA, ASV) are in between. Here is more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFT_LCD

The one cheap LCD I have indeed hurt my eyes at first because it's so bright. But it's a very cheap machine. I'm sure it's a TN however.

I found this video showing IPS vs TN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7XNwbUYEM

Pretty cool

[itlnstln]

I stuck to a CRT for years as I wanted better color reproduction and no worries about resolution scaling.  About 5 years ago I switched from a 21" CRT at work to a 19" LCD and never looked back.  I love using LCDs now.  Since I am a data analyst and not a graphic artist, using my PC became much more comfortable.  For what I do, a quality LCD has good enough color reproduction.  I am much more concerned about text clarity.  That said, I like glossy monitors rather than matte (although I use matte at work).  I usually work in low light (not completely dark, though) for less strain and reflections.

[keyb_gr]

I switched to the LCD camp over 6.5 years ago now, and like itlnstln, I never looked back. Fortunately I had a good bit of co-financing from my understanding parents, as back then a good 19" still cost an arm and a leg - 866€ in this case, and this already was down from 1000+. Yours truly probably is a little more sensitive to flicker than the average person, and a flicker-free monitor was a godsend. At my average viewing distances, a *VA / IPS panel was a must, too - TN feels like looking into a tunnel of sorts. (Aside from a panel swap in warranty, the monitor has held up rather well.)

An old rule of thumb is to get the best kind of monitor you can reasonably afford. It will usually last quite a while.

I would be wary in terms of cheapo monitors. About the worst-case combo you can encounter is TN panel + fixed backlight output + shoddy build / durability issues. You can never get really good contrast if the backlight is not adjustable, and gamma will usually be way off, too. If on a budget, I'd look for used high-quality Eizos or NECs, with a bit of luck they're not too worn-down (that mainly affects the CCFL backlight, which may turn rather yellowish over time, but it takes a lot of hours at high output for that to happen).

[itlnstln]

Zooey sez. Whatever you do, calibrate the sucker.

I was very disappointed in the SRGB standard that was supposed to end the need for calibration.  I can put ten monitors side-by-side, set them up using SRGB, and all ten of them will look completely different.  Fortunately, I have a pretty good eye for color, but having a calibrator is nice.

[spolia optima]

Zooey sez. Whatever you do, calibrate the sucker.

Show Image

Required for photographers and porn perfectionists (I've heard).

I never bought one of those (or the spider things)... But it's helpful to have friends into graphic design. They're all about the calibration tools, tellin' you that your eyes are lying to you and all that. My ex-gf once got mad at me because my old uncalibrated samsung monitor was "too yellow and blurry" for her to write an exam paper on.

[Buckling_Summer]

the 2493HM is a TN based panel

[AndrewZorn]

CRT has advantages, but too few to justify almost anyone buying them.  LCD now offers 120hz, high resolutions, and fast response time... each nearly as good or better than CRTs.  additionally, LCDs use less power, lower eye strain, and are smaller and lighter.

i dont care if you ARE in graphic design, i could never suggest a CRT.

calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design.  people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it?  a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.

[itlnstln]

calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design. people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it? a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.

Businesses regularly patent colors for their logos (we do, for sure, our logo is very specific shade of red and our shelf tags a very specific shade of yellow), so I would imagine design teams want to make sure they are looking at exact colors when designing signage, tags, etc. so that they create the best possible visuals when displaying their company's logo.
 
Long story short, most people may not be able to describe what they see, but enough know when something looks "off."

[ricercar]

mechanical keyboards are nice and all, but i dont see the application with computers.  people have these expensive keyboards that are buckling spring and capacitive and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the keyboard they use to type the content, why worry so much about it?  a decent rubber dome should be plenty.

Ignorance of motivation isn't a very wise reason to dismiss others' needs.

[itlnstln]

I don't even try to "evangelize" quality keyboards.  If someone wants to check mine out, that's cool, but I don't try to convince people that one keyboard is better than another. It's all a matter of personal taste.  For example, there are a lot of speed-typists that prefer scissor switches since the travel is shorter.  I like Cherry browns, because the activation force is light, they're springy and they're tactile.

[exia]

I use two old 17" CRT monitors (1024x768) for my PC (Linux with Xfce). I want to upgrade to LCD. Why?

1. I think if I get good ones, they will be better on my eyes.
2. I want more screen space.

The problem is that I am used to the old style non-wide screens, i.e. 4x3 ratio. New wide screens are of course 10:16 or some 9:16 I think. I want to keep two screens, so I think two wide ones will be TOO wide. I think taller is better also because then I can see more code. Most code is not very wide.

Samsung does make very nice 19" LCDs that are 4x3. They are expensive (at least $200 each) but they appear to have very good specs.

I thought also perhaps of taking wide screens and turning them sideways--I have seen photos of such setups. Then perhaps I could get two 21" LCDs and have both sideways--I definitely need the two monitors to match each other. Then I can open a window "full desktop" across both or drag between and not get lost off the top of one etc. So if I had two 21" that's a lot more space than 2 19".

The guy at the store said that if I want a 21" that has an adjustable stand (i.e. can be vertical instead of horizontal) then for just a bit more, I could get 23" from the same company. I think, though, that a 23" screen set vertically would be too tall.

So I'm not sure what to do. Any advice for a geek like me?

you have suffered long enough with CRT screens

if you do get two screens to turn sideways make sure that they are the (more expensive) IPS panels. Cheap TN panels have such poor viewing angles that they look terrible when viewed sideways.

[InSanCen]

Here goes.

As someone who used professional CRT's for years (2x 22" Lacie Electron Blue's, £1500 each when new), and now uses LCD's.

Unless you need amazing colour reproduction, then any SIPS/PVA panel will be fine. There are good TN's out there, but for the money there are better panels. I too hated anything other than 4:3, but have grown used to 16:10.

Just bite the bullet, you won't regret it.

[AndrewZorn]

mechanical keyboards are nice and all, but i dont see the application with computers.  people have these expensive keyboards that are buckling spring and capacitive and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the keyboard they use to type the content, why worry so much about it?  a decent rubber dome should be plenty.

Ignorance of motivation isn't a very wise reason to dismiss others' needs.

i dont think that is at all like what i was saying

i wasnt talking about a company making something for a niche market, i was talking about designing something for the masses in a realistic scenario

designing a logo with your ultimate monitor so everyone else can view it on their crappy TN LCDs may not only be unnecessary, but it could be flat out wrong.  it is often practice to avoid stuff that might look like crap on a junk monitor... lots of gray levels dither noticeably on a junk monitor, for instance.

i just think the positives of LCD generally outweigh the negatives.  my post did not say NO ONE SHOULD USE CRT... EVER! (well, kind of)  i was just saying i do not understand the appeal.


and the color patenting thing, with all my ignorance i am sure, is one of the things i lump in with other ridiculous patents.  it is a color.  you should not be able to patent properties of light.  a paint mixture, sure.  but a color is not a PRODUCT... logo design is one thing, but even it is often taken too far.

[hyperlinked]

designing a logo with your ultimate monitor so everyone else can view it on their crappy TN LCDs may not only be unnecessary, but it could be flat out wrong.  it is often practice to avoid stuff that might look like crap on a junk monitor... lots of gray levels dither noticeably on a junk monitor, for instance....

and the color patenting thing, with all my ignorance i am sure, is one of the things i lump in with other ridiculous patents.  it is a color.  you should not be able to patent properties of light.  a paint mixture, sure.  but a color is not a PRODUCT... logo design is one thing, but even it is often taken too far.

I don't think itlnstln was saying that getting the colors perfect was needed to enforce some company's claim to be the inventor of a color scheme. I believe what he was referring to was how anal companies get with exact reproduction of their company logo and what it appears on or near so when you're design flexibility is completely killed by specifications of color choice, you need to know that what you're looking at is what will end up printed.

[ricercar]

To be effective in some countries, registration of a trademark requires a specified color for each element.  

And the color is not being copyrighted, it's the use of a color in a specific deployment that can be trademarked. Registering a trademark is just like a patent and a copyright. You're not claiming ownership of the individual elements. You're claiming to own a specific deployment of the elements described in your trademarked image, patented invention, or copyrighted text.

[AndrewZorn]

ok, well both of those make more sense
though i do feel like i have heard of companies getting mad over use of their colors
then again, lots of times patents are abused
maybe im just bitter from all the patent lawsuits in technology i read about lately
amd is getting sued over a patent on mosfet placement (or something to that effect)

but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?

[Shuki]

CRT has advantages, but too few to justify almost anyone buying them.  LCD now offers 120hz, high resolutions, and fast response time... each nearly as good or better than CRTs.  additionally, LCDs use less power, lower eye strain, and are smaller and lighter.

i dont care if you ARE in graphic design, i could never suggest a CRT.

calibration is nice and all, but i dont see the application with graphic design.  people have these expensive CRTs that are calibrated and all, but when 95% of your customers know nothing about the display they use to view the content, why worry so much about it?  a decently-close-to-calibrated IPS should be plenty.

I guess this is true, I am biased because I play a lot of multiplayer games online. At any semi-competitive level CRT is preferred due to input delay and refresh rate. Also the price is really nice considering every aspect of CRT is superior if you get a decent one. The only drawback being the huge size and the factor of wear and tear. I never get eyestrain with CRTs as I only use them at 120hz and I have an LCD for desktop use.

If you just want clear text then I guess you don't have to discriminate as much when choosing an LCD. Just find an aspect ratio you like at a price you like.

[microsoft windows]

I guess this is true, I am biased because I play a lot of multiplayer games online. At any semi-competitive level CRT is preferred due to input delay and refresh rate. Also the price is really nice considering every aspect of CRT is superior if you get a decent one. The only drawback being the huge size and the factor of wear and tear. I never get eyestrain with CRTs as I only use them at 120hz and I have an LCD for desktop use.

If you just want clear text then I guess you don't have to discriminate as much when choosing an LCD. Just find an aspect ratio you like at a price you like.

I use CRT's every day. My best one is one I just got from 2002. It's a 19" and can handle 100Hz at 1152x864 resolution. It's got much better color quality than and LCD I've seen and can be looked at from any angle without any color distortion.

Color distortion is probably the thing I hate about LCD's. I work with new ones at my job, but what's always gotten on my nerves is the fact that if I look from above or below my average position, all the colors go weird. This happens on every computer LCD I've used.

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.

[hyperlinked]

the 2493HM is a TN based panel

Oh yeah... I think that was the other reason why I continued to use my Apple Cinema Display as my primary monitor...

so... Samsungs are a pretty decent backup monitor... I guess I was just trying to not sound like an Apple fanboy.

[Shuki]

I use CRT's every day. My best one is one I just got from 2002. It's a 19" and can handle 100Hz at 1152x864 resolution. It's got much better color quality than and LCD I've seen and can be looked at from any angle without any color distortion.

Color distortion is probably the thing I hate about LCD's. I work with new ones at my job, but what's always gotten on my nerves is the fact that if I look from above or below my average position, all the colors go weird. This happens on every computer LCD I've used.

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.

Well I have my LCD set up pretty well I would say but the colours are nowhere near as good as my CRT. I would say my CRT is superior in every way except for size.. far better in fact. However my CRT cost 10 pounds and my LCD 200 pounds :S

[HaaTa]

I'm not too picky about my monitors, but my old DEC one from 1992 I'm using now has superior color quality than the brand-new Hewlett-Packard LCD's at work.

I had a 14" monitor of a similar age (can't remember the brand) but the colour was amazing on it. When I first went to pick it up, I ripped the base right off of it (the rubber stoppers had glued themselves to the table it'd been there so long).

Also for funs sake CRTs are more fun to destroy...and sometimes fail spectacularly.
Once I had a monitor (17") that went into an infinite loop of changing resolutions. Within seconds smoke filled the room. I think the screen was flashing between white and black as well, but I was too busy running to unplug the thing.

[InSanCen]

but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?

Let's see if GH can keep this one on track. Most times when this particular debate is done, apples are compared to oranges and pears, but there is a refreshing lack of hormonal fanboys on here.

Compare my old Lacie 22" monitors to my current home monitor. The Lacie's are leagues ahead. Compare them to standard SIPS panels, they are still ahead. Compared to my friends 24" Dell Ultrasharp and 24" BenQ (Both great monitors), and they are ahead again.

If however you compare them to another set of Lacie LCD's, aimed at professionals who work in an environment that needs accuracy with colour, then it's not really clear who's ahead. I haven't seen a difference myself, and would be happy to work with the newer LCD's, but I never had the opportunity to compare back to back.

[CaptainKirk]

OK, it seems that almost everyone agrees that LCDs are indeed better, and I have learned that IPN is what I should be looking for (and that it's worth the higher price). The question left is what size. I want to have two monitors, and I'm guessing that two 21" standing up will work, but I'm not sure. Obviously, it's all about personal preference but someone might be able to say "a 23" monitor mounted vertically is really very tall and I wouldn't recommend it."

I am trying to figure out what size to buy. Perhaps 22" would be doable.

PS: I have a friend who's buying four cheap 23" LCDs--he plans to mount them in a rack--two on the desk and two above--so he can day trade. Aside from the day trading foolishness, I think four 23" monitors is crazy--no one can manage that much space effectively. IMO.

[Mental Hobbit]

Just make sure to look at one in upright position before buying. Most LCDs have a very limited viewing angle from what's normally the bottom side.

[timw4mail]

I recommended the cheapest (lowest cost) IPS display available, the Dell 2209WA: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=320-7825&cs=04&c=us&l=en

Definitely worth the $100 premium over my other two displays.

[CaptainKirk]

I poked around there at Dell and found a 20.1" IPS with 3x4 ratio: http://www1.euro.dell.com/il/en/home/monitor/monitor_2007fp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor_2007fp&s=dhs&cs=ildhs1

Only drawback is that it's more than the 22"! Go figure. Perhaps less demand for 3x4...

[itlnstln]

ok, well both of those make more sense
though i do feel like i have heard of companies getting mad over use of their colors
then again, lots of times patents are abused
maybe im just bitter from all the patent lawsuits in technology i read about lately
amd is getting sued over a patent on mosfet placement (or something to that effect)
 
but considering other output mediums, is an IPS panel really inferior over a CRT when designing logo stuff?
especially when you can just input the color value?

Check it.  The color red used in our logo is trademarked (see ricercar's explanation) for protection purposes.  I actually got in trouble for using a modified version of the logo we use in Mexico (because it's much cooler) as the logo in my e-mail signature.  The reasons were two-fold: first, it didn't have the US trademarked "racetrack," and it was the wrong color.  The guy explained how they have to protect it constantly, and my having the wrong logo could jeopordize litigation should it arise.  He did admit that it was a better logo, though.

[itlnstln]

When my sister and I were young and we would visit family in Texas before we moved here, we used to call it "itchy butt" (H-E-Butt said quickly).  Who knew I would be working for them?

[itlnstln]

This chairman?
 

[keyb_gr]

Just make sure to look at one in upright position before buying. Most LCDs have a very limited viewing angle from what's normally the bottom side.

Which is precisely why he's looking for something with a S-IPS panel now. PVA would also work; historically color stability over viewing angle was better with IPS but there was this "glitter" effect, and contrast wasn't quite as high (S-IPS solved that one). I have been quite satisfied with my PVA equipped Samsung, and at my viewing distances (frequently only about 20 cm) I would definitely notice if viewing angles weren't up to par.

I poked around there at Dell and found a 20.1" IPS with 3x4 ratio: http://www1.euro.dell.com/il/en/home/monitor/monitor_2007fp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor_2007fp&s=dhs&cs=ildhs1

Only drawback is that it's more than the 22"! Go figure. Perhaps less demand for 3x4...

Seems to be a mass market thing indeed. That being said, the 2007FP still is rather inexpensive for a 20.1" UXGA.

One accessory that I can definitely recommend is a monitor arm. Gives you heaps of flexibility and desk space. Like o2dazone, I use an Ergotron LX (also comes in a dual monitor version these days, though last time I checked this was a little spendy).

[itlnstln]

I have 2 1908FPs, and they are great.  I would like something with an LED backlight in the future, but for "cheap" flat panels, I couldn't ask for much more.  They have decent (for what I do, anyway) color reproduction, and are quite sharp.  If you are doing prgramming, writing, etc., I don't thonk you could go wrong with those.  At home, I have a 22" 16x10 Acer that's pretty nice, too, but I don't think they make it anymore.

[timw4mail]

Seems to be a mass market thing indeed. That being said, the 2007FP still is rather inexpensive for a 20.1" UXGA.

The 2209WA is a better monitor, though, in terms of contrast and response time.

Not to mention, you don't know if you'll get an VA or IPS panel with the 2007FP

[keyb_gr]

The 2209WA is a better monitor, though, in terms of contrast and response time.

Not to mention, you don't know if you'll get an VA or IPS panel with the 2007FP

I noticed the two versions for the 2007FP, too. It would be a good monitor either way, but not first choice for the picky customer who's settled on a particular panel type.

itlnstln's 1908FPs seem to be using a TN panel.

[itlnstln]

itlnstln's 1908FPs seem to be using a TN panel.

True that.  Looks like a no go.  It's pretty good for a TN, though.  I have seen much worse.  Since they're on my work computer, I didn't pay for them, nor did I get a choice.