BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple check your orientation
Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.
Box switches are great, don't let this discourage you unless you have a habit of moving the same keyset around to different boards every month for some reason (why do this?). This will wear out keys on any stem. Box switches stems are slightly thicker I think, sort of like how MX clears are often tighter to get keycaps on.BOX are fantastic at eating some artisan stems, be very gentle and triple check your orientation
Box switches does makes keycaps loose on normal MX stems. My Bro bot TMX doesn't fit normaly anymore on normal MX stems and just falls off.
What is it about the box switches that might cause this? The box structure itself shouldn't really have anything to do with it since that isn't the part that connects with the keycap, I think. So is it just that the stems on these switches are either inconsistent, or else uniformly just a little bit bigger in some respect? If uniform, it would seem to be a design issue. If inconsistent, then a QC issue. It would be really useful to know which is the case, and whether or not it affects all box variants. And what about other Kailh, non-box switches?
I've been wanting to branch out and try some of these, but given the price of keycap sets I'm not sure I'm comfortable taking the chance. Not until there's more evidence one way or another.
so get this...I put a couple artisans on my little macropad with box jades and noticed it was a REALLY tight fit. Like I thought the stem was going to break with how tight it was. Immediately took them off and put them on another with zealios and the fit was fine.
I've had my hyperfuse V1 GMK set on box blacks for almost a year now. I went to put them on a different board and HOLY CRAP... they FALL OFF the switches when I turn the board upside down. This happens on kailh non-box switches as well as gateron and cherry. booo
There is definitely something going on.
TL:DR If you put GMK caps on box switches, better be prepared to keep them there
A little video for you. This is sad and hilarious at the same time I guess:
Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.
I'd only be worried if keycaps actually broke while on the board without removing them.
Is there a way to tell this to Kailh? This seems like a pretty big deal since it's happening to more than just me.
Stop buying box switches. Warn people of the problems with them.
Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?
Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.I'm going to test it. I have 4 boards now with box switches (GMK, TaiHao, and SP SA caps) and 2 upcoming builds I'm going to put modded box switches in. I don't swap keycaps once I put them on boards, so check back in a few years to see what happened lol.
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I think the main question is what happens over a longer period of time. Do they crack further until they eventually won’t even stay on anymore, or does is remain “a small crack” but the caps remain usable on both box and mx switches.
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Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
Lime had some QC issues all around, at least some batches.Has anybody experienced this with SP SA caps?I've had Dasher on blacks for a little over a month. I just checked 20 random keys and they look normal so far.
I think SA from Signature Plastics will be okay. As others have stated, they tend to be a bit looser from the start. The only SA that I personally had cracked was my SA Lime maxkey set.
I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/
After my Reddit answer, managed to fix my caliper and to my extreme luck, there was a pack of best before 2010 LR44's lying around nearby
So basically the Y-axis is a no issue
Comparing my new Box Naxy's from YMDK to an existing Cherry MX Blue/Gray, the measurements seem 1.26-1.27 to 1.33-1.34, so there's that additional 0.07mm there
Still, testing actual GMK Dolch keycaps, putting them on, pulling them by hand, I don't notice a major issue, tho the virgin F5 I've been testing became very loose now, however it still grips both cherry/gateron/kailh - I wonder if we lube the switches with a thin lube before putting them on, it would be helpful - having bought just one second hand keyboard and keycap-set before, I know that treatment differs from person to person a lot, that was a shocking experience, and being a gentle costar guy, I hope these switches will treat me good
I really can't believe GMK's cracked too, some of my tests were very extreme in the past, none of mine gave up
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there
Here's another thought does it matter if the caps have been used before?
Like maybe they get put on regular mx first then used some and then get out on boxe switches later? Does that make a difference?
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They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?
Those do have reduced travel compared to box yellows though. Maybe these Pro heavy Berrys are more like them:They crack GMK stems? I just put box dark yellows in a filco waiting on GMK Samurai...
What normal mx stem linear are most like these?
You could just get the non-box dark yellow
https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-speed-heavy-switches?variant=3747975200808
I really hope one of the crackers can measure their stems too, so we can clarify whether there are different batches out there
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...
Well, I just joined three different recent Massdrop GB's on BOX Navy, BOX Pale Blue and BOX Burnt Orange. Now I don't know how I should feel about this lol...
Massdrop finds a way to deliver the most defunct version of everything, got some MX Blues from them in the early days, you wouldn't believe how defective they are, 99.99% factory rejects
So if people complain about 1.33mm, expect 1.5mm width switches that will rip your stems from inside out :)
I really hope one of the crackers can check measure of their stems and compare with our official box switch stem size.
We offer more better products for your guys to try and we also pay attention to the questions that you guys pointed out.
I think an important distinction is that the specs themselves appear too big, so, even if switches are within tolerance according to the spec sheet, they are still bigger than normal MX switches (at least from what I've seen in others' measurements), which appear to be < 1.30 mm on the X-axis.
Hmm has anyone looked at this from another point of view? I am just trying to cover all angles. What if the issue isn't the box switches but instead keycap's are out of tolerances.
Thinking behind this is the following.
Seems to be happening only with Maxkey's ((Which seem to have QC issues left and right)) and GMK the defecto standard for quality.
But its just strange that this issue doesn't seem to appear with any other keysets we know of. Also it doesn't happen with all GMK keysets. I mean has anyone tested JTK? I know people said enjoy was fine. I am wondering if GMK changed/switched out there mods. Tightened tolerances and doing so didn't fully take into account ABS shrink that occurs. I would love to see someone compare the openings of a cracked GMK to a non cracked GMK and see if perhaps the issue is keycaps and not switches.
Hope my post makes since. I know what trying to say but not always the best at taking words and putting them down.
:( :( :( :( :(
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
:( :( :( :( :(
Epic sadness on the Laser set!
Yeah, that really stings to be honest. I also happened to be chatting with an erickong on Massdrop about it that took these measurements, the black switches are box blacks, reds are gateron:
Could anyone measure Kailh speed stems please? Or do you we have data already?
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.
What if not the box stems, or the keycap stems measurements are wrong?
It could also be that the ABS / PBS or other plastic material is not the same, and / or is iconsistent, some more prone to cracking?
Is it all types of box switches, or just some? That's a question also.So far all kinds of boxes. And that restraint, I guess it depends on who you talk to :) Personally I’m a trust person and I lost my trust in box switches with this. I’m desoldering the 2 boards with box blacks in it and already ordered new switches. I do like the switches tho, just not worth the risk to my $150>>> keycap sets :S
(and for how serious we take keysets, I must say that I'm impressed with the restraint and approach being taken by those affected.)
I had another thought about this issue this morning. Could anyone with some calipers measure the length of stem's cross on the x and y axis and compare that to Cherry or Gat stems? If not I might be able to borrow some calipers from a friend and check it myself, but Im wondering if the stem is slightly longer in those areas in addition to being a smidge wider.
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Look a little closer on the center stem there is a fracture that runs all the way to base.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
I see it now, that sucks. Damn, I've used box switches on so many of my boards... gonna go pull off my laser set and check right now.
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Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zKcuXEu.jpg)
****ed my shift key up. Box Blacks.
:confused: I can't see the crack. Can someone point it out to me?
Has anyone had MX clears crack their stems? My clears are a much, much tighter fit than my box reds.
I made a post on Reddit after seeing this thread with some findings regarding some on the issues with the Kailh Box stem sizes. Although it is a low sample size, I am sure more people will start measuring there stems and find similar results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/91u9d4/kailh_box_switch_stem_measurements_and_possible/
Hi Bella_Hwang,
I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.
You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests
I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.
If it turns out to be some kinds of QA issues where you release a massive amount of faulty switches (abnormal stem size) into the market, would you perform a recall on those from your supplier (like NovelKeys)?Hi Bella_Hwang,
I've taken some measurements of my Box Royal Hako True switches I got from Novelkeys a few weeks back.
You can find the measurements here: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/16?u=manofinterests
I will be taking more measurements with sample sizes of at least 60 this weekend for the various box switches I have. Some have GMK sets with very small cracks, and some seem fine.
Hi,thanks for your kindly message,we'll notice the issue
Speaking of measurements!Thank you so much for the list. Now that we are able to compare the stem sizes of box switches to their Cherry counterparts', its no deniable that the stems on box switches are consistently larger than what they should've been.
I have compiled a list of stem thicknesses of different switches that people has provided to me.
You can take a look at it here if anyone is interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wc59WnMRJs0gVBrOyh2bRQcPl28yL7lim-p-N0l1daQ/edit?usp=sharing
If you have some measurements of stems then send them my way and i will update the list with what you give to me.
I also trimmed the BOX part of a BOX Jade keyswitch to see if the stem size widened at the end, I can say that on my sample size of one that it does not widen or narrow at the end.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/M0WiXYR.jpg)
Hi,I'm Bella from Kailh,actually when we got the message about the keycap crack...
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
This is brilliant. You would save me a ton of money if it works. I'm wondering if someone could manufacture a metal one specifically to slim down box switches?
I have got a workaround for the problem, if one has some loved box switches.
Just put a metal keycap a few times on the box switch, and the stem will be a little tighter.
I used a cheap metal keycap which I got from ebay.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/QgMdgUS.jpg)
This is brilliant. You would save me a ton of money if it works. I'm wondering if someone could manufacture a metal one specifically to slim down box switches?
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Response from kailh if someone is interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/93c8js/response_for_kailh_box_switches_crack_and_stress/
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Hi Giorgio,
I am not an engineer and may be totally wrong but...wouldn't it be safer to go with something like 1.28 mm? this way having error tolerances of +-0.02 you could end up with 1.26 or 1.30. Going for 1.30 could end up with 1.28 or 1.32 which would have the same problem that we currently have. Am I wrong?
Here is my update. Sorry for just linking to reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/935f6l/box_switch_updates_from_novelkeys/
Please read this carefully and thoroughly. I am only speaking on behalf of NovelKeys, and somewhat Kaihua (Kailh) with the information that I have been given. Please do not ask me questions about unrelated topics on this other than the BOX switches, or ask about other companies.
Some background and current information
BOX switches currently have an x axis that is 1.32mm (+- .02mm tolerance). According to Kailh's internal testing, their switches have all been in that spec.
BOX switches' x axis, however, is wider than most other MX style switches. Some users have reported higher measurements (I just got in a really nice set of calipers. All my testing shows that these are within the tolerances), but Kailh's official word is that the switches they have measured have been within spec.
The reason that the BOX switch has a 1.32mm X axis is because DAREU asked Kaihua to widen the BOX switch from 1.3mm to 1.32mm. At the time, DAREU was really the only company that was buying BOX switches. Because of this, Kaihua agreed to change the dimensions for DAREU.
Tolerances within keycaps are unknown, and there have been reports of this varying greatly.
NovelKeys has halted all BOX switch sales
Going forward
I have talked to Kaihua for quite some length about all of these issues. They have agreed to change the stems to 1.3mm (+- .02mm tolerance) for at least my orders.
This means that all current (NovelKeys) Massdrop orders and Novelias will be getting a 1.3mm (=- .02mm) x axis switch.
In regards to (NovelKeys) MD orders, I actually am receiving the switches I ordered today. I have already placed the corrected order and will eat the costs.
This will delay the batch of NovelKeys x Kailh BOX switches (this is the drop that had Dark Yellow, Pale Blue, Navy, and Jade switches). It shouldnt delay the other rounds.
In regards to Novelias, I actually am receiving the switches today as well. I have placed a replacement order for the updated stems.
This may cause a slight delay to this order.
Regarding my stock - I will slowly be getting replacements in for all my stock. This will take some time, and I currently do not have an ETA on this. Current stock may be relisted at some point, but I will have to figure some more things out for that.
Hi Giorgio,
I am not an engineer and may be totally wrong but...wouldn't it be safer to go with something like 1.28 mm? this way having error tolerances of +-0.02 you could end up with 1.26 or 1.30. Going for 1.30 could end up with 1.28 or 1.32 which would have the same problem that we currently have. Am I wrong?
Sorry for not quoting correctly. It wasn't written by me.
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
If the were true it may happen with other switches and not only with Kailh's.
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
If the were true it may happen with other switches and not only with Kailh's.
Maybe, but not necessarily. 1.34 may be the limit where the GMK tolerances start to go haywire. The thing is nobody knows what gmk's tolerances are since they haven't told anyone yet, and that information isn't readily available. But at the end of the day, this whole thing is a mess and there are probably many factors that are going into the stems cracking.
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Yeah. GMK never had a problem in 30 years, and suddenly kailh appears and teaches us how to do keycaps. And switches. After making those switches bigger.
I think their point is none of kailhs non-box switches have cracked stems. So they are just making box stems have the same average thickness at the non box ones so it really isn't risky. Actually the box ones will now have tighter tolerances than non-box. That is, speeds are 1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Why not just remove the box part with a razor blade?
(Attachment Link)
I ordered these from Aliexpress, but I don't think the seller's going to ship, and it's a very slim chance that any of them would even have the ability to file inside the box stem - I've checked so many possible file's - none of them were that slim
The metal keycap idea is awesome, indeed if someone produces a metal part designed to slim down stems, that would be beyond awesome
Actually, we can design the part, and order it from Shapeways, with a sand-blasted material, the sand-blasting should turn the part into a grinder
Unrelated, DareU, more like, FYourKeycapsFU, with the amount of bad karma they got now, their lives will probably be ruined forever
Why not just remove the box part with a razor blade?
I assume they are not designed to work that way, haven't tested, let me know if you make it work (It needs to be wobble-free etc.)
According to Mike 1.3 is the same as the Kailh speed switches which haven't shown any issues.
On another note, something else Mike said that seems emminently reasonable is there is evidence that part of what's going on isn't just that the spec was 1.32 but that the gmk caps have much looser tolerances for the cross size and those can get pretty small. So the stems cracks when you have a larger box stem and a narrow cap.
Yeah. GMK never had a problem in 30 years, and suddenly kailh appears and teaches us how to do keycaps. And switches. After making those switches bigger.
Its wonderful how they change stuff, others stuff break, and they start accusing others of not having their tolerances in check. Fun times to have just put a board together with BOX Jade's...
I think their point is none of kailhs non-box switches have cracked stems. So they are just making box stems have the same average thickness at the non box ones so it really isn't risky. Actually the box ones will now have tighter tolerances than non-box. That is, speeds are 1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02
Yeah, sure. 0.01mm of difference, that's 10 microns. No thanks. I'll box them and pack them.
Just think that with a temperature difference of 50 degrees celsius (like going from summer to winter), a length of 1.3mm of ABS becomes 0.00702mm larger, supposing that they're using the highest quality of abs available.
So the thermal expansion is equal to the new tolerances set by kailh (0.01mm vs 0.007mm which is a difference smaller than 40%), thus making the new tolerance absolutely insignificant and useless.
You leave your keyboard by the window in summer or winter? Boom, keycaps explode. This is aggravated by the fact that you have to take into account the fact that keycaps become smaller and bigger faster than the stem, and that have a bigger surface.
1.3mm * 50 degrees celsius * 108 Linear Temperature Expansion Coefficient /1000000= 0.00702mm
1.3*50*108/1000000
Just took keycaps of 5 boards with BOX switches (black, white, brown and navy), no cracks but all showed signs of stress on the stems... This ****ing blows.
Just took keycaps of 5 boards with BOX switches (black, white, brown and navy), no cracks but all showed signs of stress on the stems... This ****ing blows.
Mother of god. I can't imagine how upset I would be in seeing thousands of my dollars at risk for the gross incompetence of a third party.
This information may be of interest here. It is the answer I got from MD's customer service on the BOZ switches's latest drop, that it is scheduled to be shipped in one and a half month or so.
Marriah D. (Massdrop Community Support)
[size=0pt]Aug 2, 9:42 AM PDT [/size]
[size=0pt]........
Marriah here. Thank you for contacting Massdrop Community Support. I understand your concern with the recent issues with BOZ switches and I will be happy to provide more information.
At this time, Novelkeys and Kailh are aware of this problem and are working on getting the switches corrected. It has been communicated that they are working on getting this issue fixed prior to this drops shipment date in order to ensure that members receive the corrected versions of the BOX switches.
If a delay does occur, we will be sure to communicate this out to members as soon as we are aware.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to reach back out with any other questions or concerns.
Best Wishes,[/size]
[size=0pt]Marriah[/size]
This information may be of interest here. It is the answer I got from MD's customer service on the BOZ switches's latest drop, that it is scheduled to be shipped in one and a half month or so.
Marriah D. (Massdrop Community Support)
[size=0pt]Aug 2, 9:42 AM PDT [/size]
[size=0pt]........
Marriah here. Thank you for contacting Massdrop Community Support. I understand your concern with the recent issues with BOZ switches and I will be happy to provide more information.
At this time, Novelkeys and Kailh are aware of this problem and are working on getting the switches corrected. It has been communicated that they are working on getting this issue fixed prior to this drops shipment date in order to ensure that members receive the corrected versions of the BOX switches.
If a delay does occur, we will be sure to communicate this out to members as soon as we are aware.
I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to reach back out with any other questions or concerns.
Best Wishes,[/size]
[size=0pt]Marriah[/size]
Doesn't matter. All the "fixed" stems are still completely wrong if the do what they said.
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.
1.30 matches Kailh's other switches, like the Halo stems and speed switches. I have had no stretching or cracking from those, nor have I heard of any. That's my point. That 1.30 had no evidence for having issues.They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.
Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.
1.30 is still too large, that's the issue, not tightening tolerances.
Most comments have at least a legit reasoning. What is it closer to be truth is that Kaihl cross has been designed to be larger than most other MX switches. It is not known if the "fix" will avoid interference with keycap stems. I think I can give them the benefit of the doubth and let my order to be fulfilled and see by my self it KBS work well, or some rework is still needed.
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.
If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?
What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
There are some size references on Deskthority wiki (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX#Design), which is hardly official; however, the information there is typically pretty good. That information, plus anecdotal evidence provided through testing by users, does indicate some variation in tolerances between the two brands.
Imagine any other situation where compatibility was claimed and not necessarily found to be true in practice - equal outrage would be had. Look at the USB-C cable debacle on Amazon for some time, for instance. That scandal reformation was led by one individual too...
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.
Shall not be? Or should not be? If shall not be, then who determines that? Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.
What...? I was just asking for clarification as in shall (i.e. expresses certain laws and rules) or should not (i.e. to give advice or an opinion). I have no idea how what you wrote is in any way related to that question, other than to try to avoid it.
I can't replicate this. I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.
Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.
But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA. If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I can't replicate this. I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.
Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.
But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA. If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.
Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.
At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.
Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.
Kailh will reduce the horizontal axis down to 1.3, but that is still larger than any other MX clone. Let's see how those upcoming switches work in RL. Yet, I wonder why they just do not come down to 1.27 and actually solve the issue completely.
Decapped all my box boards... didn't see any cracks or stress marks on SA or pbt caps but there are definite stress marks on my nautilus enter key and novelties.
Which is weird since I just built it a month ago with royal hako clears, while other boards that have had gmk sitting on them for almost a year are fine. So time must not necessarily be a factor.
I am so bummed out since some of these are my favorite switches.
This is gonna be a lot of desoldering...
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.
There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.
Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.
hey HotRoderX,
It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.
You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.
I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.
I would add other fact:
Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.
Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.
Why on earth cherry should publish some specs that are reserved to keycaps makers or to business partners? If you have a business deal with them, they'll make you know how to make cherry compatible stems, otherwise you buy their stems, measure them, and reverse engineer them. Why on earth do you assume that there is no form of quality control? Do you assume that the engine of your car is out of spec simply because you can't find on the internet some public blue print? If you are a third party switch maker, you simply measure the keycaps, the existing stems, and then you make a compatible product, that's the end of it. If you aren't able to do so, you (not you HotRoderx) are an imbecile. I don't even understand why some people actually like kailh. Many geekhackers had thousands of dollars lost, and still someone says that kailh is right. That's crazy.
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.
What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition?
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.
That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.
So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
Most design problems are multifactorial. However, in this case it relates with mechanical interference. Almost all Cherry compatible switches are within tolerances, while KBS are not. That fact sums the problem entirely into a poor tolerance stack management in the design of the KBS's cross width. As you can see is pretty simple. You may discuss materials and all but as long as other MX clones have been used issue free reveals this simple design flaw.
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.
What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition?
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.
That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.
So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.
No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.
Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.
The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.
But, again, other manufacturers are not cracking that same keycaps, just kailh BOX.
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my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
Or an example of why it's useless to have a debate on the internet.my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.
Um...yes we do. Kailh has officially admitted as much.
I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.
So true. This thread is a fascinating trip thorough mental perversions. Unbelievable.
Tried out the metal keycap method. My only stainless steel cap is a SA R3 RAMA X cap. Thankfully, he put the letters R A M A on the underside around the stem to let you know its orientation.
If I could magic wand one board to render box switches harmless it would be my revo one (I gather I was lucky to receive one with no issues) with box yellows so I chose that one.
Tried putting the RAMA cap on each switch in tandem, was fairly tight but not ridiculous, had to use the keypuller to get it off each time.
Then, since the horizonatal stems are the cause of the cracking issue I turned the cap sideways, which was much harder to put on and INSANELY hard to pull off, thought I was going to tear the switch housing apart before the cap would come free. However after doing this, the cap slid on very easily again in normal orientation and indeed would fall off if I turned the board upside down. I proceeded to do this to every switch on the board, satisified with the RAMA cap fallling off that the stem was squished enough.
Putting the gmk caps back on (Ocean Dolch) they definiitely are looser, I can pry them off easily by hand.
I had soldered this board last year before to go with a pok3r case and didn't really know what to do with it before I got the Revo, so the switches are pretty old.
Trying a switch on the royal hako board the RAMA cap fit a lot tighter in normal orientation, but doing the sideways method made it suffiiciently loose again imo.
I'll do the whole board tomorrow though, my fingers and wrists really hurt like hell now. Still less work than desoldering I suppose.
No real assurance that this method won't result in cracked caps in the future but I guess I'll never know for sure until it happens.
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.
I thought that Mike said that the MD box keys would be the new ones in his statement.
Damn, just bought a board from someone with box blacks. Thankfully I don't own any expensive caps to ruin.. hopefully it wont be an issue. Should I worry? Sounds like some people haven't experienced the stretching so maybe the tooling is hit and miss. I do have switches I could swap out, I just would rather not desolder.
Their reasoning is also suspect because of the differing results people are getting. If all of them were to the specs provided by DAREU, they should uniformly be deforming/cracking stems. As they are not, it seems that there is an additional problem of QC and manufacturing, which makes their efforts to fix the problems suspect, IMO.
I can confirm the problem. Cracked stems on my GMK HADapter set which was mounted on Kailh BOX blacks.
This is horrendous. I don't even want to know how much damage has been done by this. All the expensive custom boards and expensive GMK sets rendered useless. This is absolutly insane.
Kailh needs to go out of business for this. Please don't buy from them anymore, I for sure won't.
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
I'm building a board with box blacks from flashquark. Should I abort and just get silent blacks or tealios?At this point I would say yes, frankly both of those feel better than box blacks imo
Tried out the metal keycap method. My only stainless steel cap is a SA R3 RAMA X cap. Thankfully, he put the letters R A M A on the underside around the stem to let you know its orientation.
If I could magic wand one board to render box switches harmless it would be my revo one (I gather I was lucky to receive one with no issues) with box yellows so I chose that one.
Tried putting the RAMA cap on each switch in tandem, was fairly tight but not ridiculous, had to use the keypuller to get it off each time.
Then, since the horizonatal stems are the cause of the cracking issue I turned the cap sideways, which was much harder to put on and INSANELY hard to pull off, thought I was going to tear the switch housing apart before the cap would come free. However after doing this, the cap slid on very easily again in normal orientation and indeed would fall off if I turned the board upside down. I proceeded to do this to every switch on the board, satisified with the RAMA cap fallling off that the stem was squished enough.
Putting the gmk caps back on (Ocean Dolch) they definiitely are looser, I can pry them off easily by hand.
I had soldered this board last year before to go with a pok3r case and didn't really know what to do with it before I got the Revo, so the switches are pretty old.
Trying a switch on the royal hako board the RAMA cap fit a lot tighter in normal orientation, but doing the sideways method made it suffiiciently loose again imo.
I'll do the whole board tomorrow though, my fingers and wrists really hurt like hell now. Still less work than desoldering I suppose.
No real assurance that this method won't result in cracked caps in the future but I guess I'll never know for sure until it happens.
Damn, just bought a board from someone with box blacks. Thankfully I don't own any expensive caps to ruin.. hopefully it wont be an issue. Should I worry? Sounds like some people haven't experienced the stretching so maybe the tooling is hit and miss. I do have switches I could swap out, I just would rather not desolder.
It destroys all kinds of keycaps. There are some people that try to show original "thoughts" by saying that modern keycaps are tighter, when there are many damaged OG Cherry sets from twenty years ago.
Some close-up photos of BOX stems. I'm also working through my keyboard's worth of installed switches with a very tight aluminum HolyOOPs cap to shave the protruding parts along the X-axis of the + stem (work-in-progress pics below as well):Show Image(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1835/43048042825_dfcbda94a4_h.jpg)Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/942/42146393080_1f7550d5c7_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Cherry MX Clear, Kailh Speed Bronze, Gateron Green, Hako True, Cherry MX BrownShow Image(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1776/43236270114_578e95384b_h.jpg)Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/936/43235048544_10638f6ba2_h.jpg)
Clockwise from top left: Kailh BOX (Hako True) with stem "shaved" a bit, stock Kailh BOX, Cherry MX Brown, Kailh Speed Bronze.Show Image(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/932/43905104812_41d449d72e_h.jpg)
"Shaved" stem in progress on the left, stock on the right
Looser gmk fit, so probably fine. It was as tedious as desoldering though, maybe more.Maybe a small jewerly file may do the trick. I will try it when the MD order of KBS shows up.I filed down the crosses on a 60% with box whites. It takes a lot of time (hours).
What results did you get?
Btw, this is the most popular topic I've started on GH. I wish it were about something happier :\
oh snap so I should get a diecast cap? I could be spreding the legs even though it's stainless steel?
Went over my royal hako board with the cap method, for some reason it was a lot harder than my previous two, I could see the little bits of horizontal stem being shaved off.
Kept reapplying the cap horizontally on each stem, testing vertically, reapplying, testing again, etc until the cap would fall off effortlessly to gravity or catapulting off from the hako clear springs.
Putting caps back on, I went to check them once again, one at a time with a bright light as I did so. Now that I knew what to look for after seeing my cracked novelty, I found that
(Attachment Link)
Every. Single. Cap. was cracked or had stressmarks. Fug.
(Attachment Link)
Since the switches were freshly "shaved" I took accents off and tried a monotone look using caps I had never used before.
(Attachment Link)
Checking them NOT MORE THAN THIRTY SECONDS LATER, I can see the beginnings of stress points. And these are switches I had reworked until they were "loose" with the stainless steel RAMA cap.
So in short DON'T PUT CAPS ON ANY BOX STEMS!. I can't trust this shaving method will make them "safe" any longer. Maybe I did it wrong, maybe the filing method will work better but at this point I'm just going to desolder everything.
I really liked this quirky layout too.
(Attachment Link)
Maybe I'll try building this with different switches but oh yeah, my caps are all cracked!
i am going to man up and admit when I am wrong, forget everything I have said before, I have to live with that. I was a ****
this is real
i was wrong!
i just checked my Hyperfuse GMK on BOX Brown and Laser GMK on Hako Trues and I would say 90% have stress of some sort, over 50% look like they have an actual crack. None of them are broken to the point of unusable but this pretty much guarantees no resale! and that continued use could be dangerous!! they will now always be a little loose when i use them again.
I did not see stress cracks on my enjoy PBT caps (i checked everyone) or the caps that come with the K-Type. I am going to switch back to my crap pile G81 cherry double-shots.
WHAT A ****ING DISASTER! look what they did to my precious Hypefuse!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1778/30145410928_f0cc6d63ed_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MVR7qh)
Where the hell can i even buy Halo Trues then? the closest thing to Hakos.
Seeing all these damaged keysets breaks my heart. There's no way there's any possible suitable compensation. Hell, I'm even paranoid about my standard cherry MX clears which are pretty tight on my keycaps :(
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Oh i am sure it has issues, i just have like 5 sets of them, I just don't care about them.
I think the consensus right now is if you have ABS caps, don't put them on BOX switches unless you don't care about them? GMK is just worth too much to risk.
I haven't seen any problems with PBT caps but I can't confirm others. I am using EnjoyPBT on one keyboard with BOX.
Honestly I can not quit Hako Trues on my Daily Driver, i just cant do it, they are such a good switch. BOX switches are amazing; they were a game changer. Just don't put anything you care about on them, GMK have clearly fragile made specific to spec stems. I have 2 bins of key caps so this wasn't a problem to just put some OG Cherry Doubleshots on there and continue to use Hako True goodness.
Are you saying that OG Cherry does not have any issues with KBS?
Oh i am sure it has issues, i just have like 5 sets of them, I just don't care about them.
If you do not need them and they are beige ones we may talk. ;)
Well, I just tried a small one day test and I already have discouraging results.
You guys familiar with the WASD 6 cherry MX switch tester, that comes with the clear keycaps?
Yesterday I put those clear keycaps on 6 different kailh switches.
Box Yellow, Box Burnt Orange, Box Navy, Box White, Box Jade, and a non-box Sage.
I clicked each one a few times, but then pretty much forgot about them until tonight.
I took them off to inspect each one, not really expecting to find anything... but because the keycaps are completely transparent, I saw some surprises.
Just after one day, 3 of the keycap/switches showed signs of stress.
The Box White and Box Jade switch both caused stress lines down two opposing sides of the cross on the keycaps.
The Box Navy seemed to cause the most stress, with each side of the cross showing stress lines in the clear plastic.
The Box Yellow and Box Burnt Orange showed no signs of stress yet, and unsurprisingly neither did the Sage switch. (My control switch I guess?)
I don't know about you, but I'm rather surprised to discover this. Particularly the Box White, because I've had 2 people reply to me on youtube just yesterday saying they've had no trouble with their Box Whites. Granted, these clear keycaps from a switch tester are probably not great in terms of quality - but wow.
I'm using Cherry vintage Doubleshot keycaps on BOX Navies.
I've been checking a few of the keycaps and none of them showed any issues.
Tested them back on MX Black switches and they all fit snugly.
Maybe Cherry doubleshots don't have this issue like GMK has.
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Looking for recommendations of a US vendor that can sell me blank keycaps for my custom layout.
I just need some cheap keycaps (preferably a muted color) so I'm not sacrificing my nice sets that I have right now and I can still use this keyboard.
edit: I'm not married to a specific profile... so doesn't have to be SA or anything.
This is my layout:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/qVj9z86.jpg)
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/ (https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/)
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
And where does the people get that 1.31 from Cherry? All of my Cherry switches are around 1.26...
That is the Cherry MX spec.
The Cherry specification is not known.
The Cherry specification is not known.
There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.
We can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.
From the article he states, just below the table:QuoteWe can reasonably conclude that X-axis cross stems measuring up to 1.33mm do not pose a cracking threat to keycaps. If they did, Cherry MX and Kaihua switches would have been wreaking havoc on keycap stems for years and years.
Alternate explanations could be:
- Cherry is producing switches with tighter tolerances than their own spec would allow, and Kaihua may be producing across their full tolerance range.
- When not "dead on" Cherry switches may "err" on the side of thinner, and Kaihua may "err" on the thicker end of in spec
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.
I think -- regardless of the stem-crack issue --, that the original cherry stem and keycap designs goal was not, to be able to change keycaps so frequently as nowadays.
What our hobby market wants from the cherry-stems, is way more than the expectation was in the times, the stem was designed.
No. The issue is not caused by frequent changes, it is caused by interference and happens even at the first try.
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I don’t understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?
Has anybody get 1.31 on Cherry switches? Cause I consistently get 1.32 on my BOX jades but none of the Cherry is close to 1.31. I get 1.28 max in some of my latest blues. Other blacks that I have just checked are at 1.25. I don’t understand how can Cherry itself say 1.31 and none of the ones I have is close to that. Does the spec sheet from Cherry have a date? Could the spec have changed over time?
It's actually quite recent, date on the spec sheet reads August 10th 2018Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/cherry-mx-cross-stem-specifications.jpg)
The Cherry specification is not known.
There is a copy of the spec sheet in his article.
Thank you for the heads up. I have been asking for it since the beginning of this crisis. Seth's article is well documented. I hope the new upcoming switch batch does actually solve the issue. I have 100 units on order.
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Thanks for reading the article!
Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.
I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions
You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
::)
Is there a way to verify the authenticity of the specification? I have read before that the specification was not available.
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Thanks for reading the article!
Note that I specifically wrote that I *don't* think anyone is lying. And I'm sure folks like you who now have lots of money into trashed keycaps are just sick about it.
I love that the community immediately went straight to measuring everything as soon as the alarm was sounded. I did the same. But as I wrote, handheld caliper readings just aren't accurate/repeatably accurate enough to draw hard and fast conclusions. We're talking about 0.01mm. Human hair-level thicknesses. So I started with the data we do have (MFR specs) and worked from there to draw conclusions
You have a good point that my sentence of advice may be at best out of place in this kind of article. I'm considering deleting that bit.
User Kavik is a "he" not a "they" by the way ;)
According to Deskthority Wiki, there was no spec sheet info for the stem available for Cherry MX stems. This could be the first time it's become publicly available.
Edit: Here's the 1985 data sheet they have hosted:
https://deskthority.net/w/images/b/b9/Cherry_MX_datasheet_%28July_1985%29.pdf
And how would a manufacturer change the drawn date on a technical doc to the date it was sent? Makes no sense to me.That should be printed/plotted date instead of drawn date. They probably have a rule configured to put the latest date whenever you open the file. I'm doing that as well except for print date as I've mentioned in the beginning.
https://www.keychatter.com/2018/08/16/unpacking-the-kailh-box-switch-debacle/
Read it. Was enraged. Perfect storm to make keycaps crack, my ass. Present the data from measurements and manufacturer, sure. But how could you overlook the community so resoundingly?
It seems Seth either doesn't read forums or just thinks we are all lying. He thinks the problem is not widespread. He summises it's a combination of keycaps and switches both being out of spec and only in the "perfect storm" you will have broken caps.
The thing is, anyone with GMK caps sitting on box switches has broken stems. But they won't know it until they go to switch out those caps to another board. We're going to see thousands of complaints over the years to come.
This was the kicker for me:
"You should be able to use any old Box switches you have on hand, although if you have expensive or older keycap sets, you may want to proceed with caution before pressing them onto Box switches"
Would ANYONE in this forum give the same advice? Hell no. You should NOT put expensive keycaps on box switches. End of story. Sorry to be an alarmist, but I have 3 ruined sets of GMK caps. They break (usually on first placement) on EVERY box switch I have tried. I have tried EVERY box switch. 2 different vendors, 4 different purchasing times. The GMK sets are 4 years apart in manufacturing. Also, my SA lime set was all cracked as well. But I've seen other people report that issue and I don't know if it was on Box switches, so I'm discounting it.
PS, still have 900 switches to sell.
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX
https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade
Seems that KBDfans already has the new "fixed?" Kailh BOX
https://kbd.fans/collections/kailh-switches/products/novelkeys-x-kailh-box-thick-clicks-navy-jade
Yeah... I hear that Mike is supposed to be getting in some next week also, so this jives.
I asked on the KBDfans Discord server about it. None from KBDfans responeded, but user phong said that he saw somewhere that Mike from NovelKeys would be testing it this weekend.
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.
I think my new Box Jades arrived today. I'll be doing a cheap transparent keycap test on them before I do anything else.
did you ever finish testing this? I am curious the results.
I have to say, it's looking good so far.
I've had the keycap on for 2 days now with no visible signs of stress on the keycap stem. With all the other box switches I tried this on before, they showed signs either after the first day or two. I'll probably leave it on for a couple more days here to be sure, but so far it's looking like these new Box Jade switches are safe.
So, kudos to NovelKeys for getting these changed in a pretty quick period of time.
Does any retailer in the EU even sell the new stem switches yet? I'm still using 25 euro Tai Hao ABS doubleshots (which all cracked immediately when putting them on box whites except for the spacebar).
I emailed candykeys about the new stems a while ago but the response was "soon". I never looked at the box royal listing though so thanks for the heads up. Seeing them differrentiate new and old stem is reassuring.
I still get the feeling there are a handful of people like Mike who give a damn and theres everyone else. I was going to just order from Novelkeys but international shipping cost almost as much as the switches. Damn near made me cry when I got to checkout.
It takes a while to get them shipped from China, but it'll probably be cheaper for you. It took 23 days for them to ship some of the new box navies and box pale blues to me from China to the US.
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Show Image(https://imgur.com/jr1QEVD.jpg)Show Image(https://imgur.com/9vol97Q.jpg)
I had put few keycaps from GMK Laser on the new navy switch with fixed stem for a few days.
After I took those keycaps off, I still discover some stress marks on corners of the x-axis.
Those keycaps still fit on other switches, but I'm not sure how it will turn out if I put them on for a month or longer.
I guess without removing those small nubs on the x-axis it's still not completely safe to put GMK caps on box switch?
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Some additional information to my previous post:I think SP SA caps may handle these better. I have had SA hyperfuse on old box navies for 6 months and they don't seem cracked (I checked 6 randomly). The only GMK I have are on box whites, but I filed those down with a jeweler's file.
I pretty sure the switch I tested with is updated version of the navy switch. I have old Hako, navy, jade box switch in hand. By comparing them with the naked eye, the new navy switch did have smaller nibs compare to the old one.
Four of GMK caps I tested with are brand new. So the chance I getting four defected GMK caps in the road is really low. And all of them getting varying degrees of stress marks after the test.
I also put SA HyperFuse on my new KIRA EXS build with new box navy for more than a week, and they survived without any stress mark or crack.
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!
Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!
Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.
I got them here:
https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches
Their pictures still show the old stems with extra protrusions on the horizontal part of the +. Can you inspect your switch stems with a magnifying glass? To be sure you actually did get the smaller retooled stem?Show Image(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1473/3902/products/6_1910dc9f-d8e9-469f-ba3d-dd629aedf5cb_1800x1800.jpg)
I have purchased (new) Jades and Navy's from NovelKeys and both with my caliper are at 1.28-1.3mm on the X axis on the bumps. I do not have anything from KBDFans. I guess I will have to use cheap caps on these till more info comes of this?
Malcolm
Show Image(https://imgur.com/jr1QEVD.jpg)
You have stress on the two support stems from the stabilisers as well.
Same. I don't have callipers, but I'll take macro photos of new stems next to old. I've shaved old Hako True stems with a CNC'd sharp aluminum keycap, and so far so good with those. It was mostly the protrusions on the x-axis that are now smoothed out. Curious if the new stems still have the protrusions but a slimmed down cross instead.
Man this isn't inspiring confidence for me in purchasing a Tokyo60 with Halo Trues…Halos are not box stems.
Perhaps I save some money by not getting switches then finding some other switches after the fact?
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...
Whoever is the relevant vendor should be able to order the stems. Chinese switch mfgs typically are willing to do this.
IMO vendors should step up more.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Did Novelkeys invent the BOX switches for Kailh? If not, then that CandyKeys ad calling the switches "Kailh BOX Switches by Novelkeys" is a misnomer. Particularly since all colors of BOX switches, including the basic ones like Black and Brown, have the same stem dimensions.
Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.I totally believe you no doubt, this whole situation is insane. That being said the ktype does have socketing alignment issues, I bought 2 ktypes and they both are really difficult to line up correct without bending the pins. in one case I pressed a switch in too hard and it ripped the Kailh-designed hot socket off the ktype PCB and I had to resolder. This was with the very first round of box browns. I never had issues be like with other hot socket boards except the ktype.
You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VgGUx5c.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/lml8bRh.jpg)
Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/y877EMb.jpg)
Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)
Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/BTV7d5Y.jpg)
You can see the stress marks easier.
How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.
Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/uaqoiDY.jpg)
If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/L4VCfj5.jpg)
Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.
So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.
I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.
Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.
You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VgGUx5c.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/lml8bRh.jpg)
Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/y877EMb.jpg)
Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)
Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/BTV7d5Y.jpg)
You can see the stress marks easier.
How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.
Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/uaqoiDY.jpg)
If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/L4VCfj5.jpg)
Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.
So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.
I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.
Does the cap cracked by the old stems, and the cap stretched by the new stems, fit onto "regular" switch stems ok, or are they loose?
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.
Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?
bOx jAdE arE mY EnDgaMe CheRrY sWiTcH
they arent even cherry switches lol, they are kailh....
I've looked at my new batch of retooled BOX switches (rose-gold-themed Novelias) and compared them with the original stem shape (Hako True) under magnification. I don't see any difference on the rear side where the metal pins protrude for connection to a PCB. There is a difference in the stem shape: the outer "perimeter walls" are slightly thicker, and the horizontal part of the stem still has vertical protrusions, but they are thinner and slimmer. I do not have callipers, but these were photographed as parallel as possible, and using my ruler on my screen, the overall X and Y thickness, including the protrusions, seems to be basically the same. Here's the comparison:
New stem on the left, old stem on the right in all pictures.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/41eGMg5.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TNuZsJp.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/3iiZu8K.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/dNVjgsd.jpg)
Thanks. Mocking fellow keyboard enthusiasts isn't a good look.
Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....
Thanks. Mocking fellow keyboard enthusiasts isn't a good look.
Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....
I do not know what to do with all these switches now...
I do not know what to do with all these switches now...
I'm going to try this pliers method from abrahamstechnology on Deskthority. Hoping it works, since I can't go back to any inferior Cherry or Cherry-compatible switch.
https://deskthority.net/review-f45/box-switches-still-cracking-keycaps-t19891.html#p425551
I believe he means that his were cracked before he modded the stems. But I'm going to mod and test before risking any ABS caps on them.
Looks like that didn't work either. He's now saying many keycaps are cracked
RIP
We're just going to have to use PBT caps on these. There's no other thing to do if you want these novel switches.
Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
Aside from maybe 1 thread here and there... why hasn't this blown up more?
I just got a newsletter on 10/5 from Kono: "Royal Hako Clear and Royal Hako True switches available now! Experience typing like never before with these unique, intensely tactile switches. - Buy Now"
Do vendors just have such tight margins that they can't afford to address this responsibly? Is it only up to us the consumer to do the research and choose not to buy them? Doesn't look good to new casual users getting into the hobby.
Aside from maybe 1 thread here and there... why hasn't this blown up more?
I just got a newsletter on 10/5 from Kono: "Royal Hako Clear and Royal Hako True switches available now! Experience typing like never before with these unique, intensely tactile switches. - Buy Now"
Do vendors just have such tight margins that they can't afford to address this responsibly? Is it only up to us the consumer to do the research and choose not to buy them? Doesn't look good to new casual users getting into the hobby.
"Compatibility Note: pre-retooling Box switches may cause cracking in certain aftermarket ABS keycap sets — notably those from GMK. PBT / POM keycaps will not crack, but they may experience stretching. Internal testing indicates that the cracking / stretching does not affect GMK / aftermarket sets universally, so yours may fit correctly on Box switches. We recommend testing a spare keycap on your Box switches for at least two weeks, then performing a visual inspection / fitment test on Cherry MX switches, before applying the entire set."
Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh is making themselves the Apple of keyswitches.
BOX switches are a good design, but poorly engineered and eventually break keycaps.Kailh has made MX-compatible switches for years with no fitting or cracking issues. The have no excuse for messing these BOX switches up twice in a row.Just an observation - Cherry MX stems also have a nub - it is just much thinner and on the very edge of the stem.
No they don't. Cherry MX tactile clears and tactile grey have a tiny nub and they've never cracked any of my keycaps after years of use.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74836.msg1848875#msg1848875
Kailh is making themselves the Apple of keyswitches.
But they're so innovative and hot right now, and people still waste their money on Apple products..
For real?
I have some new re tooled box royals coming in.
Does that mean I shouldn't use them?
This is ridiculous. I already had to rebuy them a second time.
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
For real?I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it. I have too many keycaps anyway and I want the click. This way there's more testing with relevant caps and less hysteria. If they do crack, fine, I'll file them down like I did my whites and navys and I'll know for sure.
I have some new re tooled box royals coming in.
Does that mean I shouldn't use them?
This is ridiculous. I already had to rebuy them a second time.
Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk
I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
I have sets I'm willing to lose to know. Probably be good to use them rather than just have them sit untouched too. I'm also not sure that white lines showing up = eventually going break off. Of course I could just spend 4+ hours/board and file them, but most people won't do that so it's good to know where they stand stock. I want to see if I can get the caps to actually split.I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
Well, like I said, the stress marks on the new Jades I tested took a lot longer than a week to show.
I started my keycap test on the new Jade on August 24th. And a couple weeks later, things still looked good.
But when I took a look the other day, not as good.
Granted, I've only tested one keycap. But the way it looks today is how the keycaps looked on the original Boxes after just a couple days.
I strongly urge more patience in your testing before putting a valuable set on them. Just my advice.
I have sets I'm willing to lose to know. Probably be good to use them rather than just have them sit untouched too. I'm also not sure that white lines showing up = eventually going break off. Of course I could just spend 4+ hours/board and file them, but most people won't do that so it's good to know where they stand stock. I want to see if I can get the caps to actually split.I still have some gmks sitting on the new versions testing for stress cracks. So far after almost a week I don't see any cracks, so I might live dangerously and just use mine. I'm going to test full boards with new jades and novelias (without filing) if everyone else is too paranoid to try it.
Well, like I said, the stress marks on the new Jades I tested took a lot longer than a week to show.
I started my keycap test on the new Jade on August 24th. And a couple weeks later, things still looked good.
But when I took a look the other day, not as good.
Granted, I've only tested one keycap. But the way it looks today is how the keycaps looked on the original Boxes after just a couple days.
I strongly urge more patience in your testing before putting a valuable set on them. Just my advice.
Ya the same apparently for thin tai hao ABS, I want to see what happens with GMK and epbt in the long run. If only the clickys and tactiles weren't so nice, we wouldn't be caring about all this lol.
With thin doubleshots, it happens in only a few days, especially if they are old, like my poor Wyse's.
I'm just speculating, but from the beginning I was concerned about the shape of the housing around the cross. It's not quite a circle and I wonder if it also puts uneven pressure on the stem of the keycap.
Has anyone successfully modded these switches, new or old, so they don't break keycaps?
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?Kind of like how I'm feeling with the Royals. The best tactile switch for me. I'm thinking of just building my board with it and using PBT caps on it. They won't get damaged right. It's just ABS I'm seeing getting damaged.
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?I'm testing that now with new jades and novelias, but it may take a couple months to know for sure. I have filed the nubs off on whites and navys with a flat jeweler's file and those have not caused any problems in about 6 months.
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
Based on what we know at this point in time, if one were to just commit to a GMK keyset to permanently stay on a single retooled BOX switch board would there be any issues? It seems like all this stressing and cracking causes issues when moving to other, normal switches. But just keeping them on the new BOX indefinitely seems fine, correct?
Really disappointed in all this and probably will never touch a BOX switch again. Still kinda want to build my original planned board with Navies tho as they are so unique... so am just willing to commit to one keyset forever
If you don't already have the switches, you can get navies in a standard MX style switch from novelkeys, that way you don't have any worries at all. But if you already have the retooled navies...then the above reply is the answer.
I saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Operating point of box navies is almost 2mm, speed click navies are ~1.25mmI saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Box switches are short travel though so...
Operating point of box navies is almost 2mm, speed click navies are ~1.25mm
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/BOX_Navy.pdf?5816470357010718290
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3099/8088/files/CPG151101D234_Speed_Navy.pdf?5056584868980342845
I saw the speed Navies, thanks, but I'm really not a fan of short actuation point switches
Box switches are short travel though so...
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.They don't have a click bar
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.
Pro Light Greens have a similar actuation to box switches. Do they use a click bar? If so, you could take the spring and clickbar from a box navy and put them in a pro light green.
I know you can't use the springs from a box switch in a non box switch. I would assume the clickbar is the same.
My friend bought some "new" Jade switches and watching his face when a spare GMK key cracked during the first installation was priceless.Seriously how are people doing this? I have dozens of gmk caps on jades and novelias for several days now, and still none of them have cracks. I'm doing a long term test because they may develop later, but even on old navys and whites I never had caps crack when they were first put on. It seems to happen after time.
These things are straight garbo :))
In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).
Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.
Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.
For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.
'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.
When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).
That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit. I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible. One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing.
In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches! They feel great! If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore. But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though.
As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock. And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all. Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more.It's a hard truth to learn but this is my feeling as well. Still have a couple boards left to un-box but damned if I'm going to ruin more than one expensive keyset.
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.
Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.Yes.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.
Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
That sucks. I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika. Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?
I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.
Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.Show Image(https://imgur.com/kggaoO9.jpg)
IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0)
I thought this might be of interest to some of you.
Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.like the guy above? :)
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)
Testing them out for the next week, actually. Just put them in my m60. I’ll report back soon
Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.So far so good.
So Novelias so far are fine?
I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.
I reported earlier that those recently retooled Kailh Box (Hako Violet in my case) immediately crack my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on insertion.
Those are nice 'vintage' thin ABS keycaps. They sit comfortably on Aristotle MX clicky clones from the same keyboard.
However, my (received a couple of months ago) 'Aliexpress' dual-shot PBT backlit keycaps also sit comfortably on retooled Kailh Box. No cracking or stress marks (after months of testing).
Those keycaps also sit comfortably (not too loose at all) on those Aristotles strangely enough but that's to be expected I guess.
Chinese conspiracy? Kaihua producing oversized Box stems to fit well on cheap Chinese keycaps (with safer margins for oversized stems), but utterly destroy expensive 'Western' tight-margin-produced tech? :P
Do your own testing, to be safe. BOX Black switches are pretty cheap. Get a set of 5 [retooled] switches or some low number, put a couple of your PBT keycaps on them and see how the fit is, and whether there are any signs of stress. There’s significant variance in keycap stem fit from set to set for different brands, materials, profiles, ages/batches, etc.
I think it's more the variation in the "female" side in the keycap stems. Not to mention material, thickness, etc.
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.
This topic is pretty long -- can anyone summarize? Are the new retooled Kalih Box switches still breaking certain keysets? If so, which? I recently bought some Box Navies from Novelkeys.
I've put nice GMK caps on retooled box switches and have not had problems. I had cracked stems from old version. I think it's "safe-R" to use retooled, but just proceed with caution. Most of the times I had cracked stems I heard them crack when i first mounted them. Currently enjoying the box pink, black, and Hako violet.
Is there any way to tell if the switches are actually retooled? I have what I think are pale blue retooled switches that I bought out of the last MD drop, but not sure if they may not damage cap's stems.
Yeah, get a magnifying glass and look at the stem closely. New vs. Old photos here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96323.msg2665771#msg2665771)
R.I.P my DSA Legacy Rush set :mad: :mad: :mad:
zealio v2 here we come
Dunno about the stemshaver, but you might want to follow the development of “The Cruciformer”: https://www.keebtalk.com/t/ic-the-cruciformer-a-tool-for-fixing-mx-stems/4653
Looks like it’s happening soon.
I don't want to order a tool that'll do less than 1,000 perfect cuts.
I don't want to order a tool that'll do less than 1,000 perfect cuts.
i just want a cheap tool to cut my 70 box navy and dont want to bother about this kind of problems anymore
Just found out that the buy for the "Cruciformer" tool is going on right now.... I'm gonna give it a try. I need something, and I guess I'm getting a bit tired of waiting for other options.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Has there been evidence of this? I don't think I've seen any pictures or anything of retooled switches doing damage
You keep saying that sprit is not great, buy look at kaihl. They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
Sprit is more honest than kaihl.
They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
They damaged an infinite number of keycaps without liability.
what do you expect them to do about it?
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
I lost two GMK sets to the rev1 stems. I don't expect compensation or anything of the like because I'm the one who put the caps on a brand new switch. Sucks, but to your point Kailh had the specs published and I see it as a lack of research on my part.Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
But we aren't exactly consumers to Kailh, are we? Kailh's direct customers are OEMs and parts distributors. It's not a usual thing that people buy loose switches.This is very depressing. I'm not sure if I want to be among both of you anymore. I don't want to have to deal with losers.
Wow taking it personal is uncalled for, must have a hard time accepting that a company doesn't give handouts for doing nothing wrong. Have a nice day, if that is at all possible.
Seeing a consumer that accept to be scammed is depressing. Please go away!
LOL what? Progress has nothing to do with a five stem that breaks keycaps. That's just a mistake.
Can we get some mods here and shut this toxic guy down? He is just being rude, without anything constructive to give.
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
your reasoning is acceptable
but then why did they make a new version?
Mmm what? Am I talking to a bot? Replace all the wrong stems at least?
Their stems aren't "wrong" there is no mating spec for keycaps and switches to abide by, Kailh followed their own manufacturing specs and their largest customers wishes(to enlarge the nubs/bumps) at the time. Did it end up costing people money? Yes, but they didn't have a mating spec to abide by so why do you expect them to give out replacements for free for something they technically didn't do wrong? If they actually produced them out of their own specifications, then their distributors(vendors included) would have had some means of recourse as they were sold defective/out-of-spec products, but they didn't as they actually remained within their publicly available specification.
your reasoning is acceptable
but then why did they make a new version?
I can confirm that BOX switches are still cracking keycaps.
I am currently testing BOX Browns in my switch-testing keyboard.
They are the new retooled Browns, ordered in May of this year.
I put some cheap Tai Hao ABS double-shots on them (I was well aware of the dangers, so kept expensive keycaps away from them), and it was fine at first. Typing on the BOX Browns is pleasant.
But when I came to remove them (had to test other switches), I heard a <CRACK> upon pulling the first key (the 'Q' key).
Lo-and-behold, there is a hairline fracture running nearly the full length of the OEM-profile keycap stem.
I've since placed the BOX Browns and these keycaps back on the testing keyboard. No cracking noises going on, and the 'Q' key still fits. But I know the stem is damaged.
Now, you might argue that I removed the keycap improperly. But I used a standard wire puller, and the same methods I've always used. This is the first time I've ever seen damage to any of my keycaps. There hasn't been any incidents before.
So use BOX switches with extreme caution. I'm thinking of ordering some extremely cheap PBT doubleshots as sacrifical keys for the BOX Browns, since I like them otherwise.
That said, the Cruciformer tool definitely still shaves off a not-insignificant portion of the switch stems of the retooled variety.
I have retooled BOX Blacks and BOX Yellows, but I haven't put them on a board yet.
Since I finally got the Cruciformer tool a week or so ago, I have shaved all my BOX Blacks just to be safe, and I plan to do the same with the BOX Yellows. That said, the Cruciformer tool definitely still shaves off a not-insignificant portion of the switch stems of the retooled variety.
How are Enjoypbt sets on retooled box switches? I have a set of them coming in and want to put them on box reds, have there been any problems with cracking of stems?They're fine. I used some ePBT caps on BOX Pinks and they have no fitment issues on other switches. POM caps fit and transfer fine, too. The only ones I havent installed are GMK caps but I have switches I like better anyway.
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
I have retooled switches and at least gmk and sp are not damaged by those. What keycaps are you using?
What a shame, I hope that kailh goes out of business.
They're a disgrace to this community. They failed, and than they tried to fix the mistake and they failed again. They're retarded.
Why are you so harsh? Kailh is one of the only companies in years to innovate in the switch scenes. They are also working more with the community compared to other switch manufacturers. Yeah they made mistakes i also lost some key caps so what. Maybe you should go back to reddit mechanical keyboards.
They didn't fix the problem. The new stem is still faulty and still damages keycaps. They're being harsh on the stems, not me.
I have retooled switches and at least gmk and sp are not damaged by those. What keycaps are you using?
So you didn't read the posts about the gmk keycaps damaged by retooled kailh?
I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
No more boxes for me. It would be insane to risk valuable key caps just to try some switches no matter how good they might be. Now I will investigate the new switch offering and choose which ones my upcoming builds may use. I'd say that we all should let this sad thing of box switches behind and move forward and try other options.I think that the Cruciformer is still at its pre-order price:Thank you very much for the reference. But, for the price of the tool, I'd better buy brand new switches. LOL.
https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer (https://rudbeardesign.myshopify.com/products/cruciformer)
Which would still potentially break your keycaps, if they are BOX.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Necro-post.
Has anyone else used the Cruciformer? I have some retooled BOX Yellows (1.30mm), and, after using the Cruciformer on them, keycaps are rather loose on them - so loose that a few of them wiggle, and also fall off if upside down. I've tried with GMK, ePBT, DSA, Maxkey SA, and Taihao; it varies by switch a bit, but the only one that seems really secure is the SA keycap. It may have been better to keep the stems stock. Does anyone else have a report on the Cruciformer?
Necro-post.
Has anyone else used the Cruciformer? I have some retooled BOX Yellows (1.30mm), and, after using the Cruciformer on them, keycaps are rather loose on them - so loose that a few of them wiggle, and also fall off if upside down. I've tried with GMK, ePBT, DSA, Maxkey SA, and Taihao; it varies by switch a bit, but the only one that seems really secure is the SA keycap. It may have been better to keep the stems stock. Does anyone else have a report on the Cruciformer?
I have a Cruciformer, but I’m embarrassed to admit that I still haven’t gotten around to shave my supply of box switches. But in light of your experience, I think I will do some careful testing on these switches when I get around to it now. Did you just do one “pass” per switch?
Is anyone else still having this problem? I just pulled my GMK Metropolis caps off of retooled BOX whites, and every keycap that was on the BOX whites is loose now on my non-BOX switches. There isn't any cracking that I can see, but they're all noticeably loose. One keycap came off when I accidentally rubbed it during the upstroke on a neighboring key. The BOX whites are from Novelkeys and were purchased after the announcement that all Novelkeys inventory had been changed to retooled BOX switches. The keycaps were on the switches for about 7 months. It's extra upsetting because I barely even used the board; it was mostly just on display in my collection.
Anyone else having problems with retooled BOX switches?
More importantly: does ABS have any elasticity that might help mild stretching spring back? Or do I just have to live with it? I know that I'm relatively lucky to only have mild stretching rather than the cracking that others experienced earlier.
Is anyone else still having this problem? I just pulled my GMK Metropolis caps off of retooled BOX whites, and every keycap that was on the BOX whites is loose now on my non-BOX switches. There isn't any cracking that I can see, but they're all noticeably loose. One keycap came off when I accidentally rubbed it during the upstroke on a neighboring key. The BOX whites are from Novelkeys and were purchased after the announcement that all Novelkeys inventory had been changed to retooled BOX switches. The keycaps were on the switches for about 7 months. It's extra upsetting because I barely even used the board; it was mostly just on display in my collection.
Anyone else having problems with retooled BOX switches?
More importantly: does ABS have any elasticity that might help mild stretching spring back? Or do I just have to live with it? I know that I'm relatively lucky to only have mild stretching rather than the cracking that others experienced earlier.
I'm taking SA Yuri off my retooled BOX Jades today after about a week - remembered to compare them to fresh caps on actual MX switches and the (uneven) loosening is obvious already. I'm not sure if this is to be expected (I mostly have alps boards, so I'm not sure if they'd also loosen like this on an MX board), or whether it would get any worse over time, but I don't really want to take chances with expensive caps.