Author Topic: Bunker Problems..  (Read 505 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Bunker Problems..
« on: Fri, 12 April 2024, 16:49:17 »
If you guysus were bunker. How'd it be like?



#1 on Tp4's mind is air filtration. You'd have to continually filter irradiated air if bringing it in from the surface. This is not feasible since you will be down there for at least 3000-1,000,000 years. We couldn't manufacture or store that many filters, and disposal would be a huge problem. So now we're left with closed loop situations, underground enclosed ecosystem to oxygenate, but then, we'd need a generator or very robust solar solution. With thousands of years of wear weathering, the best steel wouldn't last that long. Imagine 3000 years worth of large steel bearings and lubricant, it's just not possible.



Offline Leslieann

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Re: Bunker Problems..
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 12 April 2024, 18:42:30 »
I suspect you thought about this due to the Fallout TV series, and a lot of it is actually covered in the games.

The idea (in real life, outside of the Fallout universe) was that you stayed below as radiation clouds were overhead, then after a short time (weeks, few years at most) you could begin to venture back out and run back to shelter when the next storm came through. You weren't supposed to be there for decades or anything (not sure they told people that or not). What always bothered me about either method is like you said, food. So you store a year's worth, great, but what happens then? Were people expecting the government or someone there waiting to sell them food? Where did they expect that to come from? No thanks, I'd rather not be around when people (men in particular) revert to baser instincts. In reality, the shelters were B.S. in my opinion, it was a false hope peddled by gov. to keep people calm and sold by sleazy salesmen preying on that fear.

If you have a clean water source, and enough power, you can generate your own oxygen and water, this is what nuclear subs do, they run a desalinization giving them clean cooling and drinking water and oxygen. In low stress conditions you can also run ceramic bearings which require no lube and fluid bearings which almost entirely eliminates metal to metal contact. Old steam engines still work and turbines are extremely efficient and run for decades or more without problems so there are ways to do it and it is possible.


Note I had only seen up to Ep2 of the series at the time I wrote this but could give some clues to where the show is headed.

Anyhow,
In Fallout, the vaults (as shelters were called) grew their own (often?) genetically modified food that also generated oxygen, they also used large self contained fusion reactors which required few moving parts.
And yes, they had problems, one common issue was the constant maintenance and maintenance crews being overworked (usually the ventilaltion system). That and over time running out of stores, supplies etc driving them out of the vault. Not that many of the vaults needed it because most were doomed to short term failure because most were actually just social experiments designed to test human limits for long term space travel, only a couple were actual shelters for government and the restoration of the country. Turns out Vault-Tec was quite evil and corrupt, and it's theorized they were not only doing it all for the "Enclave" (who later became Remnants) but also probably even started the war. The games really give a TON of back story on this if you go into the vaults and read their history (or online), some is rather entertaining and also terrifying, the writers really got creative with some rather twisted ideas.

Edit: added a note about spoilers.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 April 2024, 21:38:27 by Leslieann »
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Bunker Problems..
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 13 April 2024, 00:34:06 »
I'd rather be dead than live the rest of my life in an underground prison. I already hate my life, and I'm technically a free man.
No sir, give me that old radioactive suntan and let my bones disintegrate to dust.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Bunker Problems..
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 13 April 2024, 19:54:54 »
There's no way nu(lear would work long term underground, no where is it geologically stable enough for nu(lear underground. It produces trit1ate water and other off gases which would contaminate the water/air supply. These reactors also have significantly more moving parts. They also wouldn't be able to last very long as the fuel gets depleted. Refueling is too dangerous with no margin of error as they have no where to go. Disposal of highlvl waste is also impossible. Even if they pre-dug a depot, underground storage is not safe because the earth constantly moves, which is why we still keep most of our stuff above ground. They could never refine more fuel underground as it would take more power than the generator outputs to refine the fuel, even if they had ore. The refinement process also produces alot of dangerous waste, on the surface we just poison poor people with it, but if they were all underground, again with the water contamination. They also wouldn't have enough water for heavy industry.  If they had an aquifer, the amount of water they'd draw would cause ground instability around them, because this facility is too large.

One might think, well what if we duct in from aquifer far away, yea? what if your duct goes bad, or needs repairs, how much digging capacity would they really have when it takes major energy, heavy metal to do it in the best conditions. It's not like they'll have cranes to move mining machinery.

The Geo-thermal generator is pretty cool from the show SILO, but realistically, it has the same problems, too many moving parts.

Powerplants power down all the time for maintenance. They would need a huge battery bank that'd work for months at a time if they had to deal with turbine repairs. They wouldn't have much capacity to make the materials they need underground, you'd need a heavy forge eventually.

Tp4 still thinks solar is the way to go, but if they're situated too close to remnant humans, it'd get vandalized pretty quick.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Bunker Problems..
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 13 April 2024, 21:33:31 »
Tp4 still thinks solar is the way to go, but if they're situated too close to remnant humans, it'd get vandalized pretty quick.
Solar panels need cleaning but also get damaged way more often than you think, hail, wind, etc.. Most also only have an expected lifespan of around 20-50 years.
Forget vandalizing, it's big sign saying "bunker/safety here!"

It didn't take me long as a kid to realize I was with Noisyturtle, give me the ultimate sunburn, sounds better than fighting to survive only to starve to death within a few years. A full scale war will leave the planet effectively dead. Some things may survive and it could recover but it will take a long time to reach a point where it can sustain people, much less a decent size population.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Bunker Problems..
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 14 April 2024, 00:16:24 »
Give me the ultimate sunburn, sounds better than fighting to survive only to starve to death within a few years. A full scale war will leave the planet effectively dead. Some things may survive and it could recover but it will take a long time to reach a point where it can sustain people, much less a decent size population.

All true, but this is a Last-Build fantasy right? We know this is not going to work, but we can still enjoy the process.


Thinking about this some more, assuming it's not nu(lear winter, and we're situated far enough away from vandalism,  Large green house canopy, w/ the modified crops.  It's still closed, but with thick glass slugs inset in steel/concrete, if this array was large enough, it's more reliable than generator for the food and air system.

I believe we will still need forges eventually. Solar forges isn't an impossibility. Not durable, but you can probably close this.