Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES

[psm]

The Rollermouse is ackward with ergonomic keyboards, because it's a one-piece design that doesn't allow for separation or tenting.

Is your RSI mostly the result of mouse use or keyboard use?

If it's mouse related, I'd favour the Rollermouse or a trackball.  If it's keyboard related, I'd go with the Ergo Pro and perhaps a trackball.

It's mostly mouse related, that's why I'm looking into alternatives (again). As there are almost no good trackballs out there (didn't test a CST one yet, importing it is quite costy too) I was hoping that a Rollermouse would be the answer to my problem.

Oh well, just gotta continue testing then. Pity that it's such a pain to get most of the stuff in Germany w/o having to pay an arm and a leg. ~~

Thanks for answering.

I've been using this kind of device exclusively for shoulder RSI for over 20 years: http://www.keyboardco.com/mouse/logitech-wireless-trackball-m570.asp  For me, it is pretty much perfect, and completely fixed my RSI.

[jbm]

Production is still underway.  We expect to be done next week.

Hi Matias - is it too soon to request another update on the second run?

[nobodysbusiness]

So, Matias, since we're all here in this thread, I'd like to ask you a bit of a "personal" question regarding the Ergo Pro keyboard. Feel free to not answer if you don't think it's appropriate.

Have you been happy with the amount of demand that you've seen for the Ergo Pro?

I'm just asking because I want the Ergo Pro to be a success, so that there will be a better chance of replacement parts, accessories and future versions being released long into the future. Anyway, best of luck with the new product.

[kshopper]

http://www.keyboardco.com/mouse/logitech-wireless-trackball-m570.asp[/url]  For me, it is pretty much perfect, and completely fixed my RSI.

Ditto for me. Using variations on this model since the mid-1990's and no issues with RSI. Much cheaper than many of the alternatives also.

[Matias]

So, Matias, since we're all here in this thread, I'd like to ask you a bit of a "personal" question regarding the Ergo Pro keyboard. Feel free to not answer if you don't think it's appropriate.

Have you been happy with the amount of demand that you've seen for the Ergo Pro?

Yes, we're very happy with the response/sales of the Ergo Pro.  The first production run sold out quick, and the 2nd run is continuing to sell well.

I'm just asking because I want the Ergo Pro to be a success, so that there will be a better chance of replacement parts, accessories and future versions being released long into the future. Anyway, best of luck with the new product.

You can definitely expect to see accessories for it.  We're already doing the coloured palm supports.  Keycaps will also be available.

Hi Matias - is it too soon to request another update on the second run?

Sorry, we're going to need a few more days.  It's looking like Tuesday/Wednesday now that we'll be done.  The Ergo Pro is a lot more difficult to manufacture than a normal mechanical keyboard.

Really looking forward to supply catching up with demand!

[jbm]

Sorry, we're going to need a few more days.  It's looking like Tuesday/Wednesday now that we'll be done.  The Ergo Pro is a lot more difficult to manufacture than a normal mechanical keyboard.

Really looking forward to supply catching up with demand!

Makes sense - thanks for the reply!

[Pandora]

- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.

I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.  I had a  Kinesis --  I hated it and it broke after six months.  I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as  well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.

[Matias]

- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.

I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.  I had a  Kinesis --  I hated it and it broke after six months.  I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as  well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.

This was vigorously debated in another thread, so I'd rather not get into it again here -- other than to say that the ErgoDox also has the 6 key on the right side...

https://geekhack.org/?topic=66322.msg1564972#msg1564972

[smknjoe]

- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.

I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.  I had a  Kinesis --  I hated it and it broke after six months.  I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as  well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.

...a very long time ago? So, ten years? ...

[FullTwisting]

- Note the position of the '6' Key. That is the correct hand according to most typing schools, but opposite of how MS, Goldtouch and Kinesis (Freestyle, Maxim) has it.
- Right Alt (Gr) is farther left than non-ergo users are used to, but in the same position as on the MS 4000.

I've been typing since I was 14 which was a very long time ago. I learned to touch type and the 6 key has always been on the left side and you accessed it by reaching with your left index finger. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.  I had a  Kinesis --  I hated it and it broke after six months.  I'd like to try this keyboard since my Ergodox recently tanked as  well after only a year, but I don't know if I'm willing to try and make that adjustment again. The only two things that make it attractive are the split keyboard and the price and that hopefully I wouldn't have to wait eight months to get one like I did with the Ergodox. I've tried other split keyboards but I didn't like any of them.

This was vigorously debated in another thread, so I'd rather not get into it again here -- other than to say that the ErgoDox also has the 6 key on the right side...

https://geekhack.org/?topic=66322.msg1564972#msg1564972

The real solution would have been to put the 6 on both sides!!   

Seriously though, is there a technical reason why that couldn't be done?  I'm not sure I've seen any keyboard do that.  Maybe I should pattent that. 

[Matias]

The real solution would have been to put the 6 on both sides!!   

Seriously though, is there a technical reason why that couldn't be done?  I'm not sure I've seen any keyboard do that.  Maybe I should pattent that. 

You should add an extra "B" as well.  It's exactly in the centre of the keyboard, so could be assigned to either side.  :-)

[sordna]

. Until recently I have never, ever seen a keyboard where you were expected to use your right hand. I'm not sure which schools would teach you otherwise or why. I find it awkward and uncomfortable.

Forgetting traditional keyboards for a second (which are utterly horrendous) keyboards should be symmetric, just like human hands are. Therefore there most natural and obvious way to split the 10 digits is 5 on the left and 5 on the right. Matias made the right choice here. I hope their next keyboard design takes ergonomics even further and does away with the diagonal, left-leaning key columns on the left half.

[Matias]

I just got word that our 2nd production run is complete, and Ergo Pros are being flown over now!

[Hairball]

I just got word that our 2nd production run is complete, and Ergo Pros are being flown over now!

Awesome!  So... if I were to no longer be able to resist and ordered now is the next production run still set for delivery in July?  I've got a birthday right around the corner so hey maybe this is my present to myself

I actually need a new ergo keyboard right now (sick of the crappy switches in my Microsoft Natural 4000 though I like the layout) and while I also have a nice Ducky mechanical it's a non-ergo layout and that always hurts my writs after a while.

[Matias]

I just got word that our 2nd production run is complete, and Ergo Pros are being flown over now!

Awesome!  So... if I were to no longer be able to resist and ordered now is the next production run still set for delivery in July?  I've got a birthday right around the corner so hey maybe this is my present to myself

Yes, we're taking orders now for July...  :-)

[nobodysbusiness]

Just received my new ErgoPro! Everything's working great so far. I have my right Ctrl key, as promised.

Thanks, Matias!

[zxz]

Just got my UK iso ergo pro, very happy so far. This thing is solid, it feels a lot more stable than the matias mini I've got at home. Hightlight so far is the spacebar, it's so good! Is it pbt, the bottom row looks like it has a different finish compared to the rest of the keys.

[Hairball]

Couldn't hold out any longer - pre-ordered for the next batch.  The wait now is gonna be painful though.

[smeggysmeg]

Yea it is.

I preordered for the second batch back in February, in the hopes of getting it before my birthday, which is this week. I knew there was going to be some amount of delay, but I never imagined it would be this far past the projection. A long delay with the first batch made sense because it was a new product, but after that I would think the production process would be smoothed out, no more design work would be needed, etc.

I'm still looking forward to getting the board, don't get me wrong. My wife is just disappointed that she has nothing to say, "look what you have for your birthday!"

[smeggysmeg]

Of course, right after I made that comment I get a notice from UPS that a shipment is coming to my address that's roughly six pounds, and I haven't ordered anything recently. I think I know what it is

[Hairball]

Of course, right after I made that comment I get a notice from UPS that a shipment is coming to my address that's roughly six pounds, and I haven't ordered anything recently. I think I know what it is

Oh that figures lol.  Hope that's what it is - let us know if you get it.

[billputer]

I'm waiting on my shipment notification. If anyone who's gotten their round two wants to post some pics, I'd love to see them. I'm excited!

[zxz]

Something interesting I've noticed is that the sliders are grey on the ergo pro where as they are white in the mini, is there any difference between the two? The new ergo pro does seem quieter compare to the mini as well. Tempted to get a second one for home now... I'll post some picture when I'm back in the office.

[h1ro]

Someone just posted this on Reddit mechanicalkeyboards:



Looks like one key has been removed from the undo/cut/copy/paste on the far left. I wonder why that happened?

[planet36]

Maybe it's specific to the UK version.

[Matias]

Someone just posted this on Reddit mechanicalkeyboards:

Show Image

Looks like one key has been removed from the undo/cut/copy/paste on the far left. I wonder why that happened?

That is the ISO version, which doesn't have an Undo macro key -- unlike the US and JIS versions which do.

This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.

[kshopper]

I just received my 2nd production run unit after having previously returned my first run due to the Num Lock placement issue.

I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!

Loving the feel of this keyboard! My perception is that the keys are just a little clackier than the first gen model I had. That one was virtually silent, I'm finding the muted clacks from this one to be fantastic, very rewarding to type on and the sound enhances the accuracy of my typing working in conjunction with the tactile nature of the switches.  Any idea why this keyboard would be slightly less quiet than the 1st gen?

The long wait has been worth it!

Ken

[Hairball]

I just received my 2nd production run unit after having previously returned my first run due to the Num Lock placement issue.

I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!

Loving the feel of this keyboard! My perception is that the keys are just a little clackier than the first gen model I had. That one was virtually silent, I'm finding the muted clacks from this one to be fantastic, very rewarding to type on and the sound enhances the accuracy of my typing working in conjunction with the tactile nature of the switches.  Any idea why this keyboard would be slightly less quiet than the 1st gen?

The long wait has been worth it!

Ken

Well that definitely doesn't help with the long wait I've got until the 3rd run is shipped lol.  Nice feedback and interesting about the slight difference in sound.  I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar?  Thanks!

[h1ro]

This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.

How interesting that the German layout switches those two keys! I wonder what led that to happen. Thanks for the information.

[davkol]

This is because the German layout swaps the Z and Y keys, so an Undo macro key wouldn't work if it were there.

How interesting that the German layout switches those two keys! I wonder what led that to happen. Thanks for the information.

The infrequency principle, explained in this paper.

The explanation for missing Undo makes no sense to me, because… Germans apparently don't need to undo stuff? It sounds more like some obscure hardware-level hack was used to implement those macro keys.

[h1ro]

Davkol - thanks for that interesting looking paper. Reading now

[jacobolus]

The infrequency principle, explained in this paper.

That paper only has one throwaway line about QWERTZ. You want this one: http://www.strath.ac.uk/media/departments/economics/researchdiscussionpapers/2013/13-10FINAL.pdf

[davkol]

Aha, thanks for that. I wanted to post both links, but messed up.

OT It's a pity that Kay insisted on comparison with DSK and completely ignored Hammond, Typo and other quite popular alternatives that had existed back in the day.

[kshopper]

I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!

I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar?  Thanks!

Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. 

[davkol]

…like a true Canadian.

[Hairball]

Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. 

Awesome, thanks for posting the pics and I appreciate the puck mod - hockey and mechanical keyboards are both near and dear to me

[Matias]

I love the new Num Lock treatment with the transparent bar so you can see the light, very nice!

I may have missed this earlier in the thread if someone already posting pics, but can you post a pic showing the new layout and the numpad key with the transparent bar?  Thanks!

Mind my hockey puck "mod" I'm experimenting with more extreme tenting angles prior to possibly investing in mini tripods. 

Wow, nice job!

[smeggysmeg]

I got mine!

[zxz]

Here's mine, I've swapped the home/end pgup/pgdn keys since I use the home/end ones a lot more

[Hairball]

I got mine!

Show Image

Congrats :)  I see you have a separate ten key pad - how do you like that setup?  It's what I plan on doing as well.  Do you use a mouse between the keyboard and the 10-key?

[smeggysmeg]

I got mine!

Show Image

Congrats :)  I see you have a separate ten key pad - how do you like that setup?  It's what I plan on doing as well.  Do you use a mouse between the keyboard and the 10-key?

It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all  - I'm a southpaw.

[Hairball]

It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all  - I'm a southpaw.

That's what I'm mostly coming from, too.  Been using MS ergonomic keyboards for at least 15 years I'd say :-/  However lately I've been about 60% MS Natural 4000, 20% laptop keyboard, 20% Ducky Zero (standard layout).  I'm hoping that's loosened up that muscle memory a little bit.

I guess with the mouse always having been on the left you never had to do that larger reach to the right like many people do with normal keyboards - that would be nice, but not enough to get me to mouse on the left

[smeggysmeg]

It's working pretty well. My muscle memory from using a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 for years is pretty strong, but I'm adjusting well. And no, I don't use a mouse on the right at all  - I'm a southpaw.

That's what I'm mostly coming from, too.  Been using MS ergonomic keyboards for at least 15 years I'd say :-/  However lately I've been about 60% MS Natural 4000, 20% laptop keyboard, 20% Ducky Zero (standard layout).  I'm hoping that's loosened up that muscle memory a little bit.

I guess with the mouse always having been on the left you never had to do that larger reach to the right like many people do with normal keyboards - that would be nice, but not enough to get me to mouse on the left

Yea, so far I'm a little disappointed in the Ergo Pro, after using a Ducky Zero with Cherry MX Browns at home (the Ergo Pro is for work).  The Ergo Pro has so much resistance it doesn't feel too different from the MS Natural 4000; I'm hoping the switches will lose some of their resistance with time, because as it is they're almost gummy-feeling from how much they resist and it makes my typing feel slow and without flow. I'm  being patient with it, though, as it's still in the learning/breaking-in period.

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad for a laptop, and I couldn't think of a more comfortable laptop keyboard.

Being a southpaw and a gamer is always an interesting combination. It means that every single game requires a good 20 minutes of trial/error key setup. I switch my left/right mouse clicks, too, which makes my computer impossible to use for nearly anyone else.

[Hairball]

Yea, so far I'm a little disappointed in the Ergo Pro, after using a Ducky Zero with Cherry MX Browns at home (the Ergo Pro is for work).  The Ergo Pro has so much resistance it doesn't feel too different from the MS Natural 4000; I'm hoping the switches will lose some of their resistance with time, because as it is they're almost gummy-feeling from how much they resist and it makes my typing feel slow and without flow. I'm  being patient with it, though, as it's still in the learning/breaking-in period.

Ooh that's not very encouraging   My Ducky Zero has MX Blues with the little o-ring silencers and I love the sound/feel of that setup.  It's interesting hearing your take on the feel of the Ergo Pro.  I don't remember seeing anyone else say that.  I'm really hoping it works out for all of us!

[7th1rt3en]

Windows is only recognizing the right half of my keyboard on startup, but the left side works fine after I get to the desktop. This is probably a common issue, does anyone know the fix?

[Matias]

Windows is only recognizing the right half of my keyboard on startup, but the left side works fine after I get to the desktop. This is probably a common issue, does anyone know the fix?

The retractible cable that connects the two sides might not be fully plugged in.  Try unplugging both ends and then plugging in again.

BTW, are you using the cable it came with?

[psm]

I just got my ergo pro!  In general, I'm very happy with the design - I need a tented keyboard, and have been using a goldtouch for a few months while waiting for the ergo pro.  Its nice to be back typing with mechanical switches again.  For me, with almost 40 years of typing on a std qwerty keyboard, and 30 years of emacs on same, getting a tentable and splitable keyboard that doesn't throw away all that muscle memory is HUGE.

This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things.  One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock.  But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl.  This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?

[7th1rt3en]

<EDIT>

The keyboard is working fine now, I have no idea what my issue was. Since it's now working, my only real complaint so far are the cables. I agree about the retractable cable being of lower quality than the rest of the board and I also dislike the right angle micro-USB connection. My computer is to my right so not an ideal setup and it's an easy fix for Matias to make if enough people dislike it. I'll be replacing all of the cables. I also wish the keyboard sat a little lower, but I may be alone in that complaint. This was my first mechanical keyboard and I was worried about noise, but the noise from these switches seems comparable to the rubber dome I was using. I also notice very little click, which not what I expedited. I'm definitely liking the split design over a straight keyboard. The palm rests are perfect.

Was there supposed to be a key puller included?

[zxz]

Here's the post on the dip switch details https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.msg1655387#msg1655387 there's nothing about it in the printed leaflet that came with the keyboard. I've been using it with windows 8 for the past week without any issues.

I don't think the retractable cable feels as premium as the rest of the keyboard, would have preferred 2 different length trrs cables much like the 2 USB cables

I just got my ergo pro!  In general, I'm very happy with the design - I need a tented keyboard, and have been using a goldtouch for a few months while waiting for the ergo pro.  Its nice to be back typing with mechanical switches again.  For me, with almost 40 years of typing on a std qwerty keyboard, and 30 years of emacs on same, getting a tentable and splitable keyboard that doesn't throw away all that muscle memory is HUGE.

This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things.  One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock.  But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl.  This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?

[psm]

Here's the post on the dip switch details https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53184.msg1655387#msg1655387 there's nothing about it in the printed leaflet that came with the keyboard. I've been using it with windows 8 for the past week without any issues.

I don't think the retractable cable feels as premium as the rest of the keyboard, would have preferred 2 different length trrs cables much like the 2 USB cables

I just got my ergo pro!  In general, I'm very happy with the design - I need a tented keyboard, and have been using a goldtouch for a few months while waiting for the ergo pro.  Its nice to be back typing with mechanical switches again.  For me, with almost 40 years of typing on a std qwerty keyboard, and 30 years of emacs on same, getting a tentable and splitable keyboard that doesn't throw away all that muscle memory is HUGE.

This keyboard has dip switches which do a number of things.  One of them swaps ctrl and caps lock.  But mine as shipped has both keys mapped to ctrl.  This is fine w/me, but I'm curious what is going on with this - the dip switches are undocumented AFAICT?

Yeah, I found that post as well.  I just remembered that I remap all of my systems using a registry hack which changes caps lock to ctrl - I personally have no need for caps lock, ever.  So that dip switch truly does nothing in my setup.
Completely agree about the cables.  I don't like the retractable cable, and have already replaced it with a 6-inch right angle.  And, I wish the micro usb was a full size or a mini.  It just seems so fragile compared to the rest of the keyboard which feels so solid.