Author Topic: Just switced to Dvorak. (Read 22430 times)

coollettuce · « **on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 19:14:20 »

Ordered one of these zines, and rearranged my model M's keycaps and have been practicing.

I went from 50WPM on QWERTY to 5 on Dvorak. Any tips?

Viett · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 19:42:41 »

Dvorak will not help you type faster. In fact, there is no evidence that any alternative keyboard layout will. It is only more comfortable, and there is actual evidence to support this. Learn it if you want to have a little fun with it and if you have the free time.

Also, check out Colemak and Carpalx. I'm not completely sold on any one layout, but check them out and decide which you might like best.

And if you decide to stick with QWERTY, just learn how to touch type and you can most likely reach 70-80 WPM pretty easily.

coollettuce · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 19:43:12 »

Quote from: ripster;100573

Go back to Qwerty?

I was having lots of pain from QWERTY so I want to switch for comfort.

IBI · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 19:48:54 »

If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need a keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.

coollettuce · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 20:00:09 »

Quote from: IBI;100583

If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need your keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.

Thank you very much!

watduzhkstand4 · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 20:18:32 »

I tried an gave up lol. It's just not my thing =/

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 20:25:19 »

I want to learn Dvorak, but I just don't have time. I should have done it when I was not taking part-time studies and did not have a baby. Nowadays, I'm just to busy. Plus, since I have to type extensively in both English and French, I would have to use an international Dvorak layout...not easy to find on most systems.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 21:31:06 »

Quote from: coollettuce;100580

I was having lots of pain from QWERTY so I want to switch for comfort.

I have a lot of pain too. I try to take break as often as I can which is easier said than done. Do you rest your wrists when typing? If yes, would it help if you try not to? I mean when you rest your wrists, you need to stretch your fingers and you are also putting more strain on your wrists. When not resting your wrists, part of the reaching to the keys are done by your whole arms. Moreover, if your pain is from tendonitis or carpal tunnel syndrome, resting your wrists while typing can put more pressure on the painful areas.

Personally, when not typing, I tried to put my wrists on my lap instead of my desk. Extensive use of the mouse can also cause a lot of pain. I alternate between left and right hand when using my mouse.

Just some thoughts.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 22:04:43 »

Quote from: ripster;100609

Patrick, good suggestions. I gotta try the wrists in my lap trick.

This Evoluent mouse I'm using is pretty nice so far.

Interesting thread in Slashdot. "Is Dvorak gaining ground".

I will definitely look into the Evoluent mouse. It's expensive, but then again I've spent so much on keyboards already :-) Plus, I strong believe that most of my pain in my right wrist comes from the mouse and not from the keyboard. If the pain was caused by the keyboard, both my wrist would hurt about the same.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 22:07:34 »

Ripster: Does the Evoluent mouse help significantly in terms of relieving the pain? I have to do something about my pain. Very often, I can have a solid grip on anything from my right hand. If I try, my hand will shake. It's that bad. Unfortunately, I cannot stop using computers since I make a living using them.

iggysaps · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 22:10:48 »

At the moment I am typing in Colemak and average around 70-90 wpm. I was at about the same speed with QWERTY, but was curious to try allegedly more efficient layouts. Well I find colemak more comfortable to type on as I still type in QWERTY on other's computers. My fingers are not flailing about as much on colemak, and my fingers seem to stay on the home row for much longer. I am forced however to look at the keyboard now when typing on QWERTY, and I am a lot slower on QWERTY these days, probably from not using it for awhile. I also tried DVORAK for a few days, but upon learning about colemak, had to use colemak instead. I don't regret doing so since it is an easier shift from QWERTY to Colemak than it is from QWERTY to DVORAK.

lowpoly · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 02:30:54 »

Quote from: ripster;100573

P.S. I wish this forum would allow title edits.

Your Control Panel/Your Profile if that's what you meant.

cnt · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 03:19:13 »

I have previously thought of giving alternative key layouts a shot.

However, the nature of my occupation has me using more than one computer on at least 80% of my working days. Quite often I end up accessing several computer terminals in the course of a single day, or several different laptops. So by no means can I learn an alternative layout and use it whenever I type on a keyboard.

Nevertheless, seeing how I sit at a steady rate of ~630-640CPM when feeding a terminal and at about ~600-610 when I'm simply writing instead of copying, I can't help but be somewhat intrigued by the supposed benefits presented by alternative layouts.

May I ask a simple question;Can anyone working under similar conditions share their experience with alternative layouts?

Another reason I'm thinking of giving an alternative layout a shot is the fact that I'm rather young (21), so adjusting to an alternative layout may prove to be a smart move in the long term.

iggysaps · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 03:40:55 »

Quote from: cnt;100638

I have previously thought of giving alternative key layouts a shot.

However, the nature of my occupation has me using more than one computer on at least 80% of my working days. Quite often I end up accessing several computer terminals in the course of a single day, or several different laptops. So by no means can I learn an alternative layout and use it whenever I type on a keyboard.

Nevertheless, seeing how I sit at a steady rate of ~630-640CPM when feeding a terminal and at about ~600-610 when I'm simply writing instead of copying, I can't help but be somewhat intrigued by the supposed benefits presented by alternative layouts.

May I ask a simple question;Can anyone working under similar conditions share their experience with alternative layouts?

Another reason I'm thinking of giving an alternative layout a shot is the fact that I'm rather young (21), so adjusting to an alternative layout may prove to be a smart move in the long term.

Well it took me awhile to get up to speed in Colemak, and there are times when I absolutely have to use QWERTY. From my experience, and others as well, it helps if you already touch type in QWERTY. If you do, at first you will go blank in QWERTY once you get your "other" layout whichever you choose up to speed. It will be slow going relearning QWERTY, I probably am down to 40 to 50 wpm from around 70. But with your environment, I think practicing on your alternative layout while using QWERTY at work means you can sustain both.

You probably would need to devote an hour a day to learning the new layout. What I did was to get a copy of Mavis Beacon, set the default language to Colemak. What happens is when you load up MAVIS beacon just ignore the QWERTY layout and do the exercises in the layout of your choosing. In my case I was using Colemak on the Mavis Beacon exercises.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 06:59:05 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;100616

I will definitely look into the Evoluent mouse. It's expensive, but then again I've spent so much on keyboards already :-) Plus, I strong believe that most of my pain in my right wrist comes from the mouse and not from the keyboard. If the pain was caused by the keyboard, both my wrist would hurt about the same.

Another good way to avoid RSI is to use a variety of different shaped pointing devices and keyboards so your hands are not using one thing for too long. And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 08:06:38 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;100648

Another good way to avoid RSI is to use a variety of different shaped pointing devices and keyboards so your hands are not using one thing for too long. And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.

I do that too. At the office, I have my Microsoft Natural Elite plus either my AT101W or ABS M1 connected to my PC. Now, if only I could stop typing on speedtest at home, I will be putting less strain on my wrists and arms. But, I just can't stop. It's so addictive when you have a keyboard you like.

ch_123 · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 08:12:10 »

Never got Dvorak... Just too random. Colemak is pretty cool though. That said, Im happy with QWERTY.

Korbin · « **Reply #17 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 09:38:30 »

I switched to Dvorak over a year ago myself. As other people have said, you won't gain a lot of speed at all but it is SIGNIFICANTLY more comfortable. Since the switch, I no longer have to use an ergonomic keyboard.

coollettuce · « **Reply #18 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 11:14:31 »

Quote from: ch_123;100669

Never got Dvorak... Just too random. Colemak is pretty cool though. That said, Im happy with QWERTY.

It's the opposite of random, QWERTY is random.

itlnstln · « **Reply #19 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 11:18:36 »

Quote from: coollettuce;100729

It's the opposite of random, QWERTY is random.

I wish Dvorak or Colemak was the standard layout as they are better planned out than QWERTY. I would love to switch, but I use too many computers other than my own, so I would forever be confused and never really adjust to a new layout. That, and I really just don't care enough. If I were a writer, or something, and only used my PC, I would probably switch.

ecru · « **Reply #20 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 16:51:06 »

I found the ABCD Dvorak Typing Course very useful when I switched. My reasons for switching were due to comfort rather than speed gains. From memory I read that it takes most people couple of months to regain the same speed, however it took me longer since I tend to be slower than average with learning coordination tasks. I don't regret the time taken.

onowak · « **Reply #21 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 18:17:43 »

i finally made the switch to dvorak this past february. is it worth it? depends. its definitely more comfortable to type. faster? im still faster using qwerty - but in the long-term, i believe i can be >as fast< in dvorak.

learning dvorak can be really frustrating. the feedback loop (for me, anyway) was measured in weeks.

heres what i did:

1. i purchased the most current version of Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor. it doesnt have dvorak "lessons" - but - you can "trick" Mavis into teaching you dvorak by setting your keyboard layout to dvorak in Windows. the layout on-screen will remain in qwerty, but you will be able to type dvorak key chars. i like mavis - she's cheap - and the program is pretty nice for what you get - you are always doing somethign "different" - its not the same ol "aaaa aaaa aaaa" repetition.

2. set aside a time for practice. for me, it was right when i woke up from 8am to 830. 30 - 45 mins seems to be the sweet spot for me.

3. lower your expectations. think 90 days before being comfortable typing in dvorak.

4. after the 90 day mark - and depending on what you do for a living - set aside 1 day a week to type ion dvorak at work. itll be weird. itll be difficult. i did it on fridays since nobody got a lot of work done fridays anyway...

5. after a while (120 days or so), i plateaued on Mavis, so i set up a macro in windows to ctrl-shift between US and DVORAK keyboard layouts (no shell scripting required - its in the GUI). from then on, i would shift over to dvorak whenever i needed to type something that wasnt "time-sensitive". after a while, i got faster.

6. i purchased a blank keyboard for use at home.

7. at some point - in the near future - i will purchase another blank keyboard for work.

im still not as fast as typing in qwerty, but now i can type in dvorak without really thinking about it. it seems to me, the speed will come in time.

im slow and some think im stupid, so...your experience will probably vary.

-0.

coollettuce · « **Reply #22 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 18:44:33 »

Quote from: onowak;100835

i finally made the switch to dvorak this past february. is it worth it? depends. its definitely more comfortable to type. faster? im still faster using qwerty - but in the long-term, i believe i can be >as fast< in dvorak.

learning dvorak can be really frustrating. the feedback loop (for me, anyway) was measured in weeks.

heres what i did:

1. i purchased the most current version of Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor. it doesnt have dvorak "lessons" - but - you can "trick" Mavis into teaching you dvorak by setting your keyboard layout to dvorak in Windows. the layout on-screen will remain in qwerty, but you will be able to type dvorak key chars. i like mavis - she's cheap - and the program is pretty nice for what you get - you are always doing somethign "different" - its not the same ol "aaaa aaaa aaaa" repetition.

2. set aside a time for practice. for me, it was right when i woke up from 8am to 830. 30 - 45 mins seems to be the sweet spot for me.

3. lower your expectations. think 90 days before being comfortable typing in dvorak.

4. after the 90 day mark - and depending on what you do for a living - set aside 1 day a week to type ion dvorak at work. itll be weird. itll be difficult. i did it on fridays since nobody got a lot of work done fridays anyway...

5. after a while (120 days or so), i plateaued on Mavis, so i set up a macro in windows to ctrl-shift between US and DVORAK keyboard layouts (no shell scripting required - its in the GUI). from then on, i would shift over to dvorak whenever i needed to type something that wasnt "time-sensitive". after a while, i got faster.

6. i purchased a blank keyboard for use at home.

7. at some point - in the near future - i will purchase another blank keyboard for work.

im still not as fast as typing in qwerty, but now i can type in dvorak without really thinking about it. it seems to me, the speed will come in time.

im slow and some think im stupid, so...your experience will probably vary.

-0.

Thank you very much for all the tips!

keyb_gr · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 04:35:53 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;100648

And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.

Well, the problem is, classic ergonomic keyboards were conceived with the notion of the keyboard being the only input device. You probably know how realistic that is...

Rajagra · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 09:45:11 »

Quote from: onowak;100835

i like mavis - she's cheap

Haha, no, *I'm* cheap, I'm using version 9 of the program that I dug out! It crashes sometimes if sound is enabled, which is awkward as some lessons use sound. I see comments on Amazon that even newer versions lock up, I'm surprised they haven't fixed that.

I tend to stick to TypeFaster and Typing of the Dead. TypeFaster is good for changing to different key layouts. TOTD isn't.

I've held back from learning an alternative layout. I just don't see how you can be comfortable holding two layouts in your brain. Remembering where the letters are should be OK. But you need to learn whole words to type fast. The concept of having to learn two different patterns for every common word just scares me tbh.

Has anyone become truly "bilingual" in keyboard layouts? Meaning they can comfortably switch layouts without their muscle memory guiding them the wrong way?

onowak · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 11:46:03 »

i can say that at this point im "bi-layout". its not that big of a deal, really. theres nothing to worry about. i can switch pretty much instantly.

the cognitive dissonance is a major side-effect in the beginning when you are learning the layout. its a weird feeling, to be sure, but it does go away (it took a couple weeks for me though).

brains are cool like that, though. trust your body to make the adjustments for you.

as for reports of mavis crashing - never happened. im running xp x64, and its been fine.

not to belabor the point but - what i like about mavis is that you are doing >different< typing exercises every 5 mins. one minute you are playing a game, the next you are taking dictation, followed by "chord exercises". to me this is better than most of the free-ware software ive used where you have x number of levels or exercises, and the "typing context" is exactly the same.

i find switching typing contexts to be an important learning tool (and underrated/ignored by the FLOSS developers). this experience was supported when i started typing in dvorak at work on fridays. it was much much different - and more difficult - than typing dvorak in mavis. this leads me to believe that switching contexts while learning to type is important in some way...

-0.

FunkTrooper · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 18:03:08 »

When I was learning Colemak, I didn't really have any special techniques; I just kinda used it, and eventually got quick at it. One thing I did a lot of was IM conversations. These are pretty good as they force you to type quickly to reply to stuff in time. I certainly never did anything like typing lessons or typing “excercises”. With a bit of practice, you get there soon enough...

coollettuce · « **Reply #27 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 21:45:38 »

Quote from: Rajagra;100924

I tend to stick to TypeFaster and Typing of the Dead. TypeFaster is good for changing to different key layouts. TOTD isn't.

Thanks for that, it's great.

megarat · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 22:48:59 »

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;100619

Ripster: Does the Evoluent mouse help significantly in terms of relieving the pain? I have to do something about my pain. Very often, I can have a solid grip on anything from my right hand. If I try, my hand will shake. It's that bad. Unfortunately, I cannot stop using computers since I make a living using them.

Have you tried a trackball?

patrickgeekhack · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 23:01:43 »

Quote from: megarat;101065

Have you tried a trackball?

No, I have not mainly because I like the wheel for scrolling, although I did consider it at some point. I have ordered an Evoluent mouse. I will see if it helps once I receive it.

coollettuce · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 23:06:03 »

Quote from: megarat;101065

Have you tried a trackball?

What's a good and cheap one?

o2dazone · « **Reply #31 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 02:51:58 »

imo I say start with a Trackman, then move onto the Grand-daddy (biased opinion).

the good thing about learning a Logitech Marble is that there's the amazing Kesington Expert that is an index finger driven trackball, which is amazing.

edit: amazing amazing amazing amazing amazing amazing im drunk

onowak · « **Reply #32 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:23:33 »

not to get off the subject of dvorak, but...ill take the opportunity to say that ive owned my ms trackball linked above since 2000. its the best mouse ive ever owned. very comfortable. very well made. im sad to hear they dont make them anymore...

-0.

IBI · « **Reply #33 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 14:35:58 »

Quote from: Rajagra;100924

I've held back from learning an alternative layout. I just don't see how you can be comfortable holding two layouts in your brain. Remembering where the letters are should be OK. But you need to learn whole words to type fast. The concept of having to learn two different patterns for every common word just scares me tbh.

I would have thought it's no different to being able to both write and type as you're making different movements for the same words for those methods.

ch_123 · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 15:20:34 »

Quote from: coollettuce;101067

What's a good and cheap one?

Logitech Trackman Wheel.

wheel83 · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 15:20:42 »

after studying an intense amount of the literal meaning of random. i am quite certain qwerty will be the english language until you can type with your mind lol

MANISH7 · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 20:01:31 »

to the op: switch from buckling springs to brown cherries and 50% of your pain will go away.

if you are learning to touch type for the first time - then i highly recommend colemak or dvorak instead of qwerty.

i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. although i have learned the dvorak map and know where the keys are, i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. when i try dvorak, my fingers start doing qwerty in the middle of a paragraph and it gets too frustrating.

between colemak vs dvorak, here's brief advantages:

dvorak: (1) comes installed already in vista. you just need to make a brief change at the language bar. (2) it is accepted as a standard in the US. colemak has neither of these but you can download colemak free and easily install to your pc. (3) from my experience, dvorak is indeed very easy and fast to learn. qwerty & colemak take a long time to learn and master. don't ask me why. ymmv.

colemak's advantages: windows & pc shortcuts were designed with qwerty in mind. colemak took these into consideration so the zxcv buttons are exactly where qwerty has them

coollettuce · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 20:39:00 »

Quote from: MANISH7;101216

to the op: switch from buckling springs to brown cherries and 50% of your pain will go away.

if you are learning to touch type for the first time - then i highly recommend colemak or dvorak instead of qwerty.

i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. although i have learned the dvorak map and know where the keys are, i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. when i try dvorak, my fingers start doing qwerty in the middle of a paragraph and it gets too frustrating.

between colemak vs dvorak, here's brief advantages:

dvorak: (1) comes installed already in vista. you just need to make a brief change at the language bar. (2) it is accepted as a standard in the US. colemak has neither of these but you can download colemak free and easily install to your pc. (3) from my experience, dvorak is indeed very easy and fast to learn. qwerty & colemak take a long time to learn and master. don't ask me why. ymmv.

colemak's advantages: windows & pc shortcuts were designed with qwerty in mind. colemak took these into consideration so the zxcv buttons are exactly where qwerty has them

Thanks for your reply.

I'm sticking with Dvorak for now, mainly because the pain in my fingers has reduced since I've started using it a couple days ago.

My model M is new, so that's not the cause of the pain.

spremino · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 29 August 2009, 11:14:19 »

Quote from: ripster;101069

If by cheap you mean less than $30 the Logitech Marble Mouse is $24.

That's what I use, since I use my left hand for mousing. I've found it very comfortable. Having to click with my thumb is very nice. I've read that mouse usage is major culprit of RSI.

I'm a Dvorak typist too. Yeah, learning it has been a bit frustrating, first week more so. But now that I've got the hang of it, it feels very good. For improved comfort, among other things, I've also shifted letters under the right hand a column to the right, both to enlarge space between hands, and to have backspace and return nearer. As for the shortcuts, there are alternatives to ZXCV involving Insert and Delete: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste

I also use a Vi like editor.

I don't know whether trackball or Dvorak or Vi or my customized layout saved my day, or all of them, but I don't feel aching hands anymore.

Don't give up: a keyboard layout needs time to really "click in". You start hitting a letter at a time, then you start hitting "combos" and short words. I think it's an investment for the rest of you life. Use typing lessons to speed up learning.

Cheers.

AndrewZorn · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 29 August 2009, 17:29:07 »

N-N-N-NECRO

I was on Dvorak for 10mins then found out about Colemak, wish it was sooner. Keeps ZXCVB and A too, by the way (still find myself trying to use S and N though) I am on (checks) day 7 of Colemak and am at 50wpm already. Typing of the Dead is fun but not really conducive to getting better for me... good for proving my results, but the pressure is too high.

Colemak

Blid · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 29 August 2009, 21:28:52 »

I have tried dvorak and colemak, I find that the carpalx qgmlwb layout is the best. Good hand alternation and no keys put in awkward places.

justin · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 03:08:19 »

The whole issue with Dvorak, the vast majority of the time, boils down to one thing. Human beings are LAZY. Yes. I said it. To switch from any one thing that one knows, (however inferior it may be) to something one doesn't know, is hard. It takes work, more work than the average joe is prepared for. That's where all this "I tried Dvorak, but it wasn't my thing." comes from. It should read, "I tried Dvorak, but was too lazy to practice, and too uncommitted to stop using qwerty while I trained."

I deliberately quit qwerty a couple of months ago, and haven't looked back. It's weird. I practiced every day for about 4 weeks. Literally, one day, about 3.5 weeks in, I went to start practice, and the pauses and mental blocks were gone. Gone. It was like a switch clicked on in my head and my brain threw out qwerty and replaced it. It felt like I'd been typing Dvorak my entire life.

So stick with it. Be patient. The discomfort, the pauses between keystrokes, the mind-blanks, they all will pass with time and practice. Then you'll wonder how on earth you ever put up with that catastrophic mass of chaos that is qwerty. You'll see your friends and family typing qwerty, and it'll look so awkward and contorted, you'll wonder how anyone could type like that at all. And your hands will dance in comfort over the keyboard with a level of ease and relaxation qwerty never could have afforded them.

Moparx · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 06:17:13 »

Great post Justin. I switched to Dvorak 3 years ago and never looked back.
Once you are past the initial week or so it is generally smooth sailing from there.

InSanCen · « **Reply #43 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 06:27:47 »

Much as that would be my approach too, the other half uses this PC, and although she rarely types much, she does expect a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard. She put's up with the "noisy" keys, but that would just be asking for trouble. I may just get/make a PS/2 switch.

Personally, I want my IBM with Blank caps in COLEMAK. Just switch it, and learn it. No going back. But, as those of you out there with Significant Others will know, it's just not worth the earache that you get.

Ulysses31 · « **Reply #44 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 08:38:05 »

I don't know how sensible it is to be using a layout that isn't "standard" in the computing industry. If you have sore wrists from typing, I personally found that simply typing more slowly and less aggressively helped relieve pain in the Carpal Tunnels. I also bought a Logitech Trackball around the same time. After I recovered I didn't need it again, but they are very good. The larger the ball,the more precise you can be. This one has a scroll-wheel too:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/trackballs/devices/189&cl=us,en

I once owned the Logitech Cordless Trackman FX, which had the most brilliant ergonomics; sadly it was lost in transit during a warranty exchange

. I wish I could get a NOS model from somewhere.

spremino · « **Reply #45 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 12:18:20 »

Quote from: InSanCen;113094

Much as that would be my approach too, the other half uses this PC, and although she rarely types much, she does expect a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard. She put's up with the "noisy" keys, but that would just be asking for trouble. I may just get/make a PS/2 switch.

Keyboard layout is a user level preference both on Windows and Linux. You can just configure the Colemak layout for you and the Qwerty for her, can't you? Or do both of you share the same user? Anyway you could easily switch layout on the fly by means of a key shortcut.

Unfortunately, login's layout is a system wide preference, and it would be advisable leaving it Qwerty.

justin · « **Reply #46 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 12:20:23 »

Personally, I don't care what the "standard" is, when the standard is awful. Qwerty isn't just slightly worse. It's insane. Scientifically, it's about as bad as could possibly be conceived if you set out to create a layout that was as slow and miserable to type on as is physically possible. It's oh-my-gosh-what-the-bloody-hell-were they-thinking bad. The research is there, but once again, most people will never read it.

I realize that due to critical mass, the world is unlikely to ever change, and that's very sad, but fine. I just refuse to use something that's grossly inferior simply because "everyone else" does. What they do is irrelevant. I'll use the best, and watch "everyone else" suffer.

Now, as for why to switch…

Yes, you can attain a higher maximum speed with Dvorak, simply due to physics. Your hands don't move a little more with qwerty. They don't move twice as much, they don't move 4 or 5, or even 10 times as much. Your hands have to move twenty times as much to type in qwerty as they do in Dvorak. That's a 2000% increase in finger strain and muscle stress. That's not opinion, hearsay, or speculation, it's hard fact, and fact that is backed by years of scientific research and concrete evidence.

Obviously, when you can type 70% of the English language without moving off of the home row, your hands are going to be much more comfortable as well, which is where the carpal tunnel and RSI reduction benefits come from.

Not everyone should necessarily switch however.

If you aren't going to touch type, don't waste your time. It isn't worth it. (duh.)
If you don't ever type more than email and website addresses, don't waste your time.
If you work in an environment where you have to constantly use computers that don't allow you to change the input settings, don't waste your time. You can change to settings to Dvorak input in about 10 seconds on most computers. (the keyboard is actually irrelevant, many of us use blank keyboards anyway)

Don't worry about having qwerty on your phone. It's true that the mind can call back qwerty seamlessly when switching to a very different keyboard or operating system. (visual surroundings trigger muscle memory selection)
I can still type qwerty full speed on my iPhone, and almost full speed on other people's computers. It's that environmental shift.

Most people can switch. If you primarily use your own computers, you can easily switch. If you type a lot, you should probably switch. If you can't truly, properly touch type, you should switch. It'll be a great opportunity to learn proper touch typing, and you didn't really know qwerty anyway.

If you're a programmer, you should at least look into alternate layouts. Dvorak is optimized for english. You might also look into Colemak or others if you primarily write C code all day.

The main point is this. Be open minded. Look into all of the layouts that are around, CHOOSE the best for YOU, and go from there. If that's qwerty, so be it. If that's Dvorak or Colemak, great. Just don't be a slave to the decisions of corporations and schools that got stuck on qwerty for financial reasons, not ergonomic ones, or any reason whatsoever that benefits you in any way. Live by choice, not by accident.

By the way, blank keys rock. They encourage you to use whatever layout you want without regard for the hardware, and are great for your touch typing skills.

Xichekolas · « **Reply #47 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 13:47:46 »

Honestly the best way to learn dvorak for me was to relabel the keycaps and then do A LOT of instant messaging/IRC. Typing tutors are fine for day one, but they quickly become boring and unnatural. You will most likely never need to type the word 'thorough' 35 times in a row.

I'm a dvorak user now, but have been looking at the QGMLWY layout. After only an hour on IRC, I could touch type (albeit really slowly). Writing longer stuff like essays doesn't give you the demand for immediacy that having a conversation does.

justin · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 14:16:47 »

Yeah, instant messaging is good for your typing abilities. I did some facebook chat when I was learning Dvorak, that really shows your progression, while improving your speed at the same time.

waddleman · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 30 August 2009, 21:37:53 »

I second the switch to Dvorak. Doesn't make you faster but really seemed to relieve the pain in the wrists. The only issue is getting over muscle memory for the first 2 weeks and relearning Vim.

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Author Topic: Just switced to Dvorak. (Read 22430 times)