Dang, I guess we can't make fun of TE for not producing anymore.
Is it a keeper?
No, but we can remember the way they treated all their customers by systematically lying to them. I don't care how good the end product is, I won't deal with a company that treats is customers like that.
I think of it more like incompetence than malice. They're not the first company to over-promise and under-deliver.
I think you are correct there, just if I spend $200+ on a keyboard I would need to know that it is from a company I can trust. They deleted comments on facebook to hide there incompetence and never bothered replying to any of mine or other members emails. They also have/had fake reviews on their website.
I think you are correct there, just if I spend $200+ on a keyboard I would need to know that it is from a company I can trust. They deleted comments on facebook to hide there incompetence and never bothered replying to any of mine or other members emails. They also have/had fake reviews on their website.
Aha that explains the swapped extra del key. So the big question ... Are they doubleshots?
Not doubleshots.
The only thing I'm not totally sold on is the angle of the enter key. I suspect they're intending it to be pushed with either index finger, but I think it would be better to have it sloped like the spacebars. Only time will tell, and maybe they'll offer that as an option if it catches on.
Edit:
1) I've uploaded a picture with a hand on the home row as requested. For reference, I normally wear XL gloves. Also added a picture with the capslock/numlock turned on. It's hard to do it justice in a photo but it's a nicely subdued blue glow that shines through the black keycaps. I like it.
2) I should point out that I ordered the 109-key version for flexibility but asked them to swap the 105th-key equivalent (above the tab) for a "Del" key like on the 104-key version.
3) As Gerk points out below, the enter/backspace are swapped from what they show on the website. If using the index fingers I suspect the version on the website (with backspace between the spacebars) would be better. I have a feeling I may end up swapping the shift and ctrl keys on both sides and then making the right "ctrl" key a duplicate "enter" key. As far as I can tell the shift/ctrl keys are the same angle which should make this a trivial change.
It's definitely going to take some getting used to the layout of the keys that have been moved, but I think the curved horizontal rows will turn out to be a really good idea.
Yep it's setup as a finger key from the slope, not a thumb key. I was already sort of planning on mapping it somewhere else (like the right shift).
From their site:Show Image(http://www.trulyergonomic.com/images/Truly_Ergonomic_Keyboard_Side.jpg)
Do you take your fingers off home row to hit the backspace key?
How do you mean the enter should have been made a thumb key? The slope of the key cap?
Hmm, they should have moved the middle column one position down, close to the bottom edge of the keyboard (or add an extra key in there). This way both the Enter and Backspace would be easier operable by the thumb without moving your hand.
What are your thoughts of the 2 movement clusters, do you think you will be able to hit the correct keys touch typing? I looks like there are a fair amount of physical cues and should be easy. I like it from a design standpoint, but usability is everything.
How does if feel being the GH guinea pig?
Curious as to what method they used to deliver and if you got any advance notification of it or not ... getting anxious to get mine in my hands :)
wow. Didn't catch this thread yesterday. TE actually delivered! (just not to me yet)
.
Mine came FedEx, no advance notice.
What was the shipping method (2-day, ground, etc)? Also what state/province are you in? Not sure if you're in Canada or the US.
At this long-delayed point, I bet it seems like you're getting a freebie!Maybe I'll throw it under the tree when it arrives. ;)
Wait, this thread is about a keyboard?? I was hoping to find tips on low-impact unboxing techniques!
Wait, this thread is about a keyboard?? I was hoping to find tips on low-impact unboxing techniques!
How heavy does it feel on the desk?
Out of curiosity, is it easy to find out what scancode it sends when you dipswitch one of the spacebars to "alternate"?
Pics please
Hey, long time no see! You know what would be really great, is if you could somehow take a picture that shows the hands over the keyboard in normal typing position (elbows at 90° angle) because some folks (myself included) think the separation and/or angle of the 2 keyboard sections is not generous enough.
I am at work with only my crappy phone camera, so here's one picture for now:
(Attachment) 35095[/ATTACH]
Kudos for jumping right into work with a new keyboard :)
Got mine - two blank 109 keyboards. Totally worth the wait. What a kick! I'm coming from two Kinesis so I'm having to adjust to the new keyboard.
So far my response it positive, its a very solid and substantial keyboard. Wonderful size, I really appreciate the keyboard cover. I'll see how it is when I get adjusted but I'm thinking this may be my ideal keyboard.
It would be good to see both a TE and a Kinesis in the same photo so we can get a good comparison.
How are you using the center vertical row as far as thumb on the bottom key only, fingers on the rest, or thumb on the bottom AND the next key above the bottom key (with fingers on the rest?
Got minePics??
Typing on the vertical matrix with the uneven rows/column...how's that working? Like it? What have you been typing with previously? Any RSI?
Hey guys, first post on GH (been a lurker for a while though)
I received the TrulyErgonomic keyboard I pre-ordered as well (in Switzerland)! Who'd have thought it wasn't vapor ware after all. ;)
Update: I've been using a Kinesis keyboard with Colemak layout for the last couple of years. I've done quite a bit of remapping to end up with my current layout. Unfortunatly I can't show you because it won't let me post a URL. >.<
Just got mine. First impressions:
Seems solid and well built. The palm rest is screwed on rather than clip-on. I have yet to undo it.
Keys work as you'd expect from Cherry browns. The space bars do not bind or wobble (being small, they shouldn't!)
Rollover seems good; six keys plus four modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Meta.)
Not all standard keys are available, and some key functions are not obvious.
There seem to be no keys for Pause, Right Meta (Windows), Menu, Numeric Enter (but see below.)
In addition, if I switch to 105 key mode, Numeric Minus is lost (returns zero key.)
Fn + {`~} key performs Scroll Lock.
Fn + F5 performs Ins. (Wasn't clear to me what the icon was.)
Fn + 5 performs Right Meta(Win) Pause (brings up Windows System info.)
Fn + 6 performs Right Ctrl Pause (i.e. Break.)
The left space, when reconfigured via DIP switch for the alternate function, returns BIOS code 92 (0x5C) Win code 234 (0xEA) in Aqua's KeyTest.
Fn + Esc does ... who knows what? Frankly, I'm scared to try it in case I reprogram something and can't recover. There are no instructions or software in the box.
Edit> It sends BIOS Key Code 119 (0x77) Window Key Code 255 (0xFF). Doesn't seem to have any other effect.
(Attachment) 35234[/ATTACH]
Interesting, so you're getting a keycode for the left space bar. Must be something OSX is doing to block things on my side then, I get nothing still ... have to test this thing on Linux, grrr.
I am guessing that Fn+esc might to be launch the (not yet available) configuration software for the board. It kinda looks like the TE logo, but who knows for sure :)
Update: Below is a comparison picture with the Kinesis.
(Apologies for the dirty Kinesis board, it's gathering dust because I'm using another one with red switches instead of brown. I haven't relabeled the other one, which is why I put the old one in the pic)
I think that the programmable DIP is referring to being able to flash the firmware, not being able to re-program keys within it ...
[snip]
I really really want to remap a few things that are not going to be easy to do with the utilities I'm using right now (like shift over the whole number row on to the left). I think I can even swap around the keycaps to match which I want to do there ...
Nice photo! Looks like the TE with wrist rest is the same depth as the Kinesis, can you confirm?
...
Hm, Kinesis with reds, that means you got the Advantage LF in Switzerland? Where did you buy it from?
Thanks for the TE/Kinesis comparison picture boli. Having used both now, do you have a take on how the hand and wrist positioning compares for the two keyboards? I'm particularly interested in ulnar deviation. I have RSI that's aggravated if I can't limit that.
How do you know it’s only one guy? Interesting observation about the implied trust, indeed.
Woot just received an email from TE with a link to a Installation & Quick Start Guide (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/manual.html) and PDF manual (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/TrulyErgonomic-Installation_QuickStartGuide.pdf). Haven't read it before posting this, so I hope it's worth it. ;)
Update (after reading it):
The quick start guide is nice, and the PDF manual is very well done.
The manual does contain a bummer regarding their remapping software: it's not done yet, for the moment we'll have to use 3rd party software. At least they list a few good choices for 3rd party software (at least on the Mac side, dunno about Windows/Linux), but it's still a bit disappointing.
A European stalker in Canada has had him under surveillance since last spring. A total and complete fluke and kinda weird :)
I want to add, in addition to my overall (new) positive outlook on the TE, that I'm believing there may be some software/firmware improvements and that owners shouldn't have any meltdowns. It's a new product and buyers knew that. Of course the future....?
ALSO:
This is an extremely valuable template of info for those of with thoughts of bringing a keyboard to market! Watch, observe, and correct the TE steps. It's not often to see the 'birth' of a new product such as this, and so every action should be noted and either accepted and copied, or rejected and flushed. TE has taken a very specific path with many pros and cons. It's just one of many ways to achieve the goal. The delays were the unfortunate brutal blows to the process. The mere fact peeps are having these threads about the TE are now a testament. The fact there are keyboards around the globe offer him the ability to jump start and skip several steps ahead in the next 6-12 months. An important and crucial time if he has the plan and resources. And, no where on the intertoobs is there a TE info/support system like there is on GH. Take note.
I'm in a unique position that if the situation were to present itself, and if there is enough legitimacy to the existing program, I would be recruited to the TE project to establish, market, and create a line of TE products, support, vendor alignments, and vertical integrate with a series of business partners. Hell, I'd do it for $1 and stock options.
That's quite a turn around for you Input Nirvana!
Not really sure how to answer that. It feels solidly build, doesn't move around. When the dipswitch is set, the left spacebar sends decimal 103, the right decimal 65.
Interesting, so you're getting a keycode for the left space bar. Must be something OSX is doing to block things on my side then, I get nothing still
I can confirm no keycode in Mac OS X when the left spacebar is changed to "alternate" with one of the dip switches. :-/
Does it pop anything up in a layout-editing program like Ukelele? Maybe that could make it do something useful on OS X?
Surprisingly, ulnar deviation is only a tiny bit more pronounced with the TE compared to the Kinesis, and quite a bit better than with a normal keyboard. The two and a half keys of extra separation and slight outward angle help more than I thought it would. I do have relatively narrow shoulders though, so YMMV.
With the TE being flat the hands are also rather flat, whereas with the Kinesis there is a slight angle: the outer edges of the hand are a little bit lower than the inner edges.
Given that, perhaps I should see about trying the Kinesis first.
That's what I'd recommend if you can spare the extra coin, though trying out different keyboards can't hurt. If you do order a Kinesis be prepared to order a second one soon - one for work, one for home. ;) Also you might want to consider ordering one with Cherry Red switches if you like them. It turns out I prefer those over the normal Cherry Browns, but that's subjective of course. You'll find all about this "Advantage LF" model somewhere in this forum (try sordna's signature).
Not sure if the TE can even be ordered at this time, and if it can at what price. If it's $250 like they said this summer it's a bit too close to the price of a Kinesis IMHO, especially given that firmware remapping isn't available yet.
any of you TE users, hitting the 4 cluster arrow/ pg/pgdn keys? i thought they'd get in the way.
Left Side Right Side
Shift Shift
Command Command
Ctrl | Option Option|Command
there are other keyboards that offer modified layouts to compare to all day long, all under the $250 price point.
The Maltron is not even a comparison (to anything other than a Kinesis), and the Kinesis is a comparison only due to the programmability. there are other keyboards that offer modified layouts to compare to all day long, all under the $250 price point.
We don't know if the TE will ever be more expensive because so far most people have paid $100-$150 for it (some at $200? Chime in if you paid that much).
And as for Kinesis vs TrulyErgonomic I think the Kinesis is better because:
+ thumb keys!!!
+ even better finger length adjusted layout due to bowls
+ more separation for left and right hand
+ remappable in firmware already available and requires no software
+ embedded num pad works in OS X
- sucky rubber F# keys
TE impresses me because he's willing to take it a step further. Arrow key groups - brilliant. Center row, different options, small, solid as a brick, programmable, extra function keys and ALL the keys are cherries ... $300 slam dunk.
Um, the TE is not really a step further. It fills the gap between regular keyboards and the Kinesis. That's a very big gap to fill, there lies their opportunity.
Arrow key groups: to me Kinesis arrows better, I don't have to leave the home row.
Dude, you must be the only person who values the TE at $300. Its niche, value, innovation, shape, technology, however you skin the cat, put it below the Kinesis, which sits higher in features (on-board dual-layer programmability, on-board layout switching) / design (concave key placement) and price. I'm sure the TE is cheaper to produce too, and that's a big advantage they have.
they are just NOT going to see a continuous flow of sales if they go over $200.
As for thumb-able keys I'd say the TE has one that is easily reachable without moving your hand. To be fair by this measure not all thumb keys on the Kinesis would count either, maybe 8 would (for me that is, it's obviously subjective/dependent on one's hands).
I'm glad you like the TE so much, each to their own. :)
I actually use all the Kinesis thumb keys, and I wish they had just two more, for dual side tri-control keys (Command/Control/Option). No way to mod unfortunately.
The speciality keyboard market is so small I think all the players will do fine. The TE has got some well deserved vitriol, but personally I think we should try to be supportive to any manufacturer in this area, even if it's not for us.
TE impresses me because he's willing to take it a step further.
if that were true, TE would have stolen the slant/incline/curve of the MS ergo 4k like i did, cuz they feel really nice, otherwise TE is not innovation just... a lesser kinesis.
Yea! TE SUCKS!
That's bound to get somebody, somewhere riled up. Maybe the guys mom.
I do about half F-keys with the stupid rubbers as touch type with fingers on home row, but need to keep an eye on it. The Split with cherry switches can be touch typed 80-90%. Not shabby.
I wonder why Kinesis didn't use hard buttons instead of the rubbers? I think they cheaped out since no matter what it was going to suck.
For $300 I'd want the TE -
To be split into 2 halves - not just two key groups
An incline set like the Kinesis freestyle
Programmability - without having to use software - so I could map function H, function C, function T and function N as cursor keys
Dvorak legends
Trackpoint
You have a customer. Hey, I'd pay $400 for something like that. Oh wait, I already signed up for that one. (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28864&d=1318894674)
For $300 I'd want the TE -
To be split into 2 halves - not just two key groups
An incline set like the Kinesis freestyle
Programmability - without having to use software - so I could map function H, function C, function T and function N as cursor keys
Dvorak legends
Trackpoint
Shame TE didn't contact me when it was doing it's research...:smile:
Yeah the rubber function keys on the Kinesis are terrible. At least Maltron didn't go down that route.
well i think most of us 90% agree on the flaws of the kinesis
high intro price point
cheap rubber dome f keys
cheap AND small rubber dome f keys
set "width" of the keyboard (meaning should be adjustable)
flat, no inward slope
keywells are not angled towards center, instead straight
these are either flaws, or just a wish list.
TE has found a quite a gap. It should stick to that gap rather than reposition itself higher. A TE2 with a few changes (now the moulds are done) could be a great offering.
The best thing TE could do now is employ a decent marketing person and give them full control of the marketing. (iMav invited TE to open a vendor forum here - haven't seen it yet).
$300 my ASS.
(Attachment) 35817[/ATTACH]
(Just noticed your sig input nirvana, I typed this post with IBM 8923.)
Here's an outside review I saw linked from the TE facebook page:
http://nicholas.rinard.us/2011/12/truly-ergonomic-keyboard.html
The only character key which actually moved from one side of the keyboard to the other is the question-mark key.
I dunno about this guy ...
I think he should look again.
Yeah, before geekhack I was looking for the one perfect keyboard that would mean I could continue work as a programmer. ... About 2 years on I'm always looking for another keyboard just for entertainment.
I've noticed that. I've only been a member for a couple of weeks and I'm already wondering how many keyboards I can sneak into the house before someone notices. This is a really dangerous site.
I've noticed that. I've only been a member for a couple of weeks and I'm already wondering how many keyboards I can sneak into the house before someone notices. This is a really dangerous site.
That's not a problem. It's when your partner discovers that those boards cost more than £10-£20 that it becomes a problem.
Actually, my gf tolerates it quite well. I don't smoke or gamble and I don't drink much.
http://www.sacrideo.us/v5/blog/ (http://www.sacrideo.us/v5/blog/)Wow, he has a datahand, and likes the TE. However, it's not "all" great. Here's a quote:
Here's another review of the TE, a very positive one.
The Truly Ergonomic keyboard is simply not as ergonomic as a DataHand, and I am willing to guess, not as ergonomic as a Kinesis either.The TE is his first keyboard with cherry switches.
Wow, he has a datahand, and likes the TE. However, it's not "all" great. Here's a quote:QuoteThe Truly Ergonomic keyboard is simply not as ergonomic as a DataHand, and I am willing to guess, not as ergonomic as a Kinesis either.
The TE is his first keyboard with cherry switches.
I still think my TE is more ergonomic for me than the Kinesis was.
-The arrow keys (both blocks) are taking longer as I had to first get used to the rest of the keyboard first! Now I'm getting handier (ha ha) on them and I love it. All it requires is about a one inch hand move to get to the keys and is quicker, more intuitive and natural compared to the usual arrow key arrangement. Not as good as the Kinesis solution where they require zero hand move, but on the other hand the Kinesis has a steeper learning curve on those keys and the Pg Up/Down block is pushed out to the thumbs.-The 2 symmetrical movement clusters (by appearance) seem like an instant big hit to me.
-Center keys - really working out well. I don't venture above the bottom three much, well the fourth is unused presently (International 5 or something which I'll remap to something else) but having those dual thumb keys in the middle is killer. I need to practice using the center keys with the left thumb more so the right thumb isn't doing all the duty.
-Three center keys below Function keys, surprisingly useful. The final configuration has the center as a Function which gives you media keys on the function keys (except possibly screen dim, which may be due to some other settings I need to check.) In my configuration the left is Control and the right is Option. The surprising part is that they are close enough to the other keys to actually be very useful as alternate keys. When I get the reprogramming software I'll remap the lower right and left three key block (I have 109's) to be Command/Option/Control, but I might actually still use these with the pointer fingers to take some load off the pinkies.
-All IMHO, I love the Kinesis and it saved my life for 15 years, but this new boy is working out pretty well.
Thanks for the lengthy writeup, Architect!
EDIT---I don't think I ever defended myself from Architects slam on me. All I've done is aggressively echo the same negativity that most people had:
My problem is that they are still lying on their website. I have sent them emails saying this and they are not responding to emails.
My Bat-pic? That's no slam, that's just me trying to lure in more geeky-kinky-comic book chicks. I know you think I'm awesome, and I like you too, but posting my 'hook-up' pics is a bit weird.
The slam was much earlier, maybe in a different thread, but no matter, you're entitled, it's the inter-toobs, who really cares? That's why I didn't mention it earlier, it wasn't relevant to counter. It became somewhat marginally relevant with the post or two above about peeps over-critiquing something that they probably need to use before offering the opinions coming out of their pie holes. "It's a piece of ****" and "it's great" verses the more appropriate "It looks like it might be a piece of **** because..." and "it may be awesome because..." Some things are cut and dry, ergonomics, not so much. My critique has been 100% negative about the marketing (we agree which is so lovely), and the communication rollout (again, we are like peas in a pod, nummy!) because it's repugnant and should not be swept under the carpet and forgotten. My critique of the board has been very, very marginal and non-commital because I have not tried it. I've asked as many questions as anybody about certain details because I'm interested and it 'seems' to have many good qualities and 'seems' to have a few bummer compromises, like all other keyboards on the planet. TE, if it continues, will have it's place, but make no mistake, it's no Datahand-killer, and not even a Kinesis-killer although it may fill a similar niche. I don't care about any of these boards as much as I care about what they may be able to do for the people using them. That's the whole point.
Some years ago I would do 5 day, 5 state, 5 office cross-country mega-office building visits for uber-important, high-pressure meetings with AIG (those lovely people). As I walked through the multi-cubes to the management offices I was having small talk about the flight and hotel and said I wasn't comfortable in the hotel bed and had a 'crick' in my back. I saw a man working that had hands that looked like feet, He typed for a living. He mentioned that his hands hurt 24/7 since childhood and typing didn't help. After 4 hours of listening to a bunch of old, entitled white guys huff and puff, I got to my rental car 11 stories down on the ground, and I cried as I realized how the most simple things in life are what make us happy and satisfied.
Ergonomics relative to health and happiness is an important topic.
You can send the seasonal fruit Harry and David gift basket to my swinging Bat Cave.
Ergonomics relative to health and happiness is an important topic.
You can send the seasonal fruit Harry and David gift basket to my swinging Bat Cave.
Agreed. And apologies (even if unnecessary) for getting all hairy. Some weird paranoia was running on this site that I was a secret agent for TE, and I lost track of who was saying what anyhow.
I got that once as a Christmas gift. The last batch went bad within a day, not recommended.
Soooo...you're saying you're NOT a secret agent man?
In my review I made a comment that the ? was the only key that switched from one hand to the other. Some of you said this was wrong, so I'm wondering if you could clarify.
Reading this thread, I can see there was some pre-order drama with the keyboards. I signed up on their site already and emailed them as well, since I want to buy it. What I'm after is the following: when did you place your order and when did you receive it?
I'm already using Kinesis and I do find that it helps, but I dislike some of the features. This Truly Ergonomic looks like it might be an improvement on them. The main reason for having a good keyboard is because I use it to drive my editor, Emacs. Any of you who already received it use Emacs at all and if you are what are you thoughts?Yes it works quite well, depending on what OS you are using it (Mac, Linux or OS X). When the reprogramming software is released it will work better, as on my 109's I can map the control key to the bottom corner keys, for dual symmetric key modifier keys blocks on both hands.
P.S. I just noticed that when you take off the wrist rest 3 of the screws are longer than the others! If you undo yours, make a note of where they go. I suspect they are the 3 top holes where you screw into the board (all others screw the 2 halves of the rest together.)Thanks for that! I noticed that the keyboard palm rest didn't go back together as quite well as it was when I got it. On disassembly those screws were all over the place.
Man they had such a long time to develop that firmware reprogram software. My keyboard is picking up dust in the meantime. I guess I should develop a layout but I need to know what the possibilities are first.
This dude/These people had at least a year... that's more than enough to program a simple little application to flash the firmware.
One of my complaints about the Kinesis is that you can really only have Control key on one hand.
don't the kinesis usb ones replace left ctrl and right alt with windows key? (i don't have usb one) of course i'm sure these could be remapped.
It's very important to not say incorrect information on the forum, I believe the statement in question should edited in good faith.
Hey stop it! I have 2 controls on all my Kinesis boards. You said you have multiple Kinesis boards, so even if one of them was broken I am pretty sure you are perfectly able to remap all the others so you have 2 controls. You've been posting good info recently, please don't start the FUD against Kinesis (which TE perceives as the closest competitor judging from their website) all over again, it's OBVIOUS false crap like that has made people call you a TE shill. Promoting TE is ok, but falsely accusing a competing product is unethical. The Kinesis remaps all keys fine, any Kinesis owner will tell you this, and if you own Kinesis keyboards you know this very well.
But of course, if you order today you would receive yours much sooner.
I have to chime in on this one ... My Kinesis had only one in default Mac config and according to the keycap printing. Just because you can remap and modify doesn't mean much. The default config and the keycap printing show one control key on recent models.
Your logic could also be twisted to say just about anything, like "my keyboard has 14 delete keys" which it obviously doesn't ... But you could change it to that config if you chose to.
How are the arrow keys working out for you? I'm still practicing at them.
Gerk, I support your statements in their entirety, but not in context. I understand your point as well. What we are dealing with here, is a bad faith statement, pure and simple. And, it's WAAYYY after the fact (timing wise) where all of us have been educated, corrected, cautioned, chided and all agreed upon. We're all basically ready to drink a coldie and blaze a fatty while tossing dollars at a strip club. What I'm saying is that we are past the mono vision some of have been spouting off with and it's poor form to regress.
I stand by my "edit" statement.
Lemme know when we're hitting the town :)
You missed the point. Architect said that the Kinesis can ONLY have 1 control which is not true. He also said that he tried remapping a 2nd control once and it "bricked" the keyboard. He is basically claiming the remapping feature on the Kinesis does not work or is not reliable which is the rubbish and FUD I'm referring to.
It's like: the TE remapping software is not ready, so let's bash the Kinesis awesome remapping feature with false accusations.
you can really only have Control key on one hand
I don't believe you have multiple Kinesis boards for 15 years and are afraid to remap a single key. I typically remap more than 10 keys on all my Kinesis boards, the old PS/2 and the USB ones, and most people do.
And you made a very false general statement:
That's a total lie, you can remap and have 10 control keys on the keyboard you want.
And in another thread a person asked how to remap something and you "pitched in" saying don't remap the Kinesis or it will get bricked. Total FUD.
The moderator, iMav, owns a Kinesis board, and many people here do, so your bashing won't get you anywhere, but I guess you're targeting people that don't yet own a Kinesis.
I don't believe you have multiple Kinesis boards for 15 years and are afraid to remap a single key.
I typically remap more than 10 keys on all my Kinesis boards, the old PS/2 and the USB ones, and most people do.good for you, I'm proud of you
And you made a very false general statement:Obviously, are you stupid? What I was saying (EDIT: or 'meant to say' - gotta be careful with sordna on the beat) was that on a mac you need three controls, command, option and control, and there aren't enough of them on a Kinesis to put on on both hands. I tried by reusing the paging thumb keys and got into trouble. It was probably a fluke.
That's a total lie, you can remap and have 10 control keys on the keyboard you want.
And in another thread a person asked how to remap something and you "pitched in" saying don't remap the Kinesis or it will get bricked. Total FUD.
The moderator, iMav, owns a Kinesis board, and many people here do, so your bashing won't get you anywhere, but I guess you're targeting people that don't yet own a Kinesis.
I'm actually glad I was forced to get used to the keyboard as it is before the remapping software is ready. If it wasn't I would have remapped immediately. [snip]
I prefer to keep my boards stock
You are a complete jerk. Trying to drive me off the site obviously, well just f*** off
I bought a Kinesis Advantage Pro about a month ago in the standard qwerty configuration and it came with two control keys by default on the upper outer of each thumb block.
I've remapped all of my rubber f keys to the number keys on the 2nd layer (accessed via keypad button or foot switch, which I prefer) as well as mapped asdf on the 2nd layer to (){}, and created a macro for capslock that spits out -> for programming in PHP. Remapping to the second layer isn't really addressed in the manual, but everything else is well documented as far as I can tell.
The one thing that I don't like is that it isn't currently possible to remap symbols independently of the rest of the key. e.g. remapping the "$" to the "a" key actually moves the whole "4"/"$" key, not just the "$". We would need an alternate firmware for that I guess.
You might want to look at Autohotkey - should help you with the last bit of remapping.
Two years ago I wrote a program that would generate a function 'stub' for me - all I had to do was type the name of the function. The program would generate a skeleton of the function for me - a boiler plate like affair. Since then I've fiddled with it so I can add names to arguments and variables and it creates code to validate the arguments, has a laughable stab at instantiating the variables, closes them down and has an error handler. Code quality has gone up and I type far fewer characters. Just an idea.
PS Welcome to geekhack!
Holy ****!
I don't know what it is, but I want one!
HOGGY. IS. AWESOME!
DISCLAIMER: Input Nirvana is president of Team Hoggy and the International Hoggy Fan Club (IHFC).
For fun:
I'd like to see anyone that has used a Kinesis and a TE, regardless of which they like better, write what and why they like whatever feature/aspect better.
Of course be prepared to back up any statements that are objective, not subjective.
Also, those with a Datahand could do the same thing. :)
As for all the requests to compare a Kinesis to a TE I have this to say: Start a new thread ... please? Same goes if you feel the need to post all the merits of the Kinesis Advantage boards and/or are worried about someone posting something incorrect (OMG that happens on the internet? It must be corrected immediately!). The post count of Kinesis vs TE in this thread is leaning way too far into Kinesis territory for me
Input Nirvana: Your old Kinesis went to another geekhacker yes, in fact it went all the way to New Zealand! The new recipient loves and cherishes her so she's gone to a good home.
As for all the requests to compare a Kinesis to a TE I have this to say: Start a new thread ... please? Same goes if you feel the need to post all the merits of the Kinesis Advantage boards and/or are worried about someone posting something incorrect (OMG that happens on the internet? It must be corrected immediately!). The post count of Kinesis vs TE in this thread is leaning way too far into Kinesis territory for me ... I personally don't care about them anymore, they were not for me and I really don't want to continue seeing "but the Kinesis can do that better" whenever someone posts info about the TE. IMHO it CANNOT. They are very very different boards. I like the TE, I do not like the Kinesis. To me the Kinesis ergonomics are horrible. P.S. I'm not going to "correct" that information either, it's my opinion and it's valid. If you guys want to go toe to toe on the ergonomic benefits (or non-benefits) of the Kinesis board vs the TE or other boards then please start another thread and I'll be happy to contribute there, but in the meantime, again, can we at least make some sort of effort to keep this thread on topic? thx
Have I ever told you guys about the hammer test for testing plastic composition?
Have I ever told you guys about the hammer test for testing plastic composition?
I saw this link at deskthority, talking about NEC's M system (http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/word/0027.html)
This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?
(Attachment) 36446[/ATTACH]
But who has the money and time to test all of the keyboards out there, and design a better, simpler tool?(http://www.trulyergonomic.com)
You guessed right, we do.
This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?
It seems that this person is typing Japanese.Which makes it all the more impressive!
TE is accepting new orders from 12th of january they say on their website! Wonder what the price will be...
You'd think that would be an important piece of information to include. Before: unknown shipping date, now: unknown price
I signed up to their email list right after people started receiving them in the mail and haven't heard a peep.
I'd guess the price is either $200 as before ... or $300...
According to one of the other threads, only preorders got the $200 price, and it should be $250 for the rest of us unbelievers. However without an official price, it's all speculation - and at this early state, it's still possible for the price to go down or up depending on how many people are willing to fork over the money.
So have people continued to be happy with their TE keyboards?
So thanks again, y'all, for inviting me to GH -- I wish someone would have left a comment on my review for me to come here! I would have found you all earlier! I've long been an input enthusiast (Fingerworks, AlphaGrip, assorted ergos) and this forum will be a new home for me.
This keyboard is from 1983, can you believe it?
Ugh: I'd rather get a used kinesis (or ergo dox) for that kind of money.
Columnaire, could you take a group photo, please? How does the TE compare to the Fingerworks?
I have seen a patent application from 1913 for a typewriter with that layout. It was also angled and tented.
... but the layout might be even older than that, I don't know.
If I could find a used Kinesis advantage here in Europe somewhere, I would have bought it already! Retail it's 350 euro here in Holland.
Interesting... do you have a link?It is US patent no 1089689. Google Patents does not support persistent links.
Aha, I see you posted about it (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20501-new-input-device-design&p=390934&viewfull=1#post390934) a while back.
Indeed you are right!!!
(Attachment) 36814[/ATTACH]
For that money it is cheaper to order directly from Kinesis and pay import taxes. So did I, because of special wishes.
...Looks like they missed their own deadline of 12th Jan to start up selling again...
:eek: You mean they set a date that they couldn't meet? That doesn't sound like them. Oh wait...
God....
It is real.
How long is it ? 3 years ? 4 years ? It was really *ucking longlonglong time.
Congrats !!!!!!!!!
You're LTTP. I'm thinking of selling mine, especially if this thing ends up selling for a much higher price than what I got it for. Of course I'd already be using it if they'd have that stinkin' firmware application ready...
QUESTION TO ALL TE OWNERS:
How do you feel about the "wave", the ring & middle finger columns being further forward than the other fingers? Do you like it, or do you wish it would be better if the key rows were straight ?
Any other TE owners feelings about the wave pattern?
QUESTION TO ALL TE OWNERS:
How do you feel about the "wave", the ring & middle finger columns being further forward than the other fingers? Do you like it, or do you wish it would be better if the key rows were straight ?
I struggle with the swap when I go home at night and try to type on my MacBook. Then, I constantly am turning the caps lock on and off!
The TE has continued to be the keyboard of my personal dreams. I'm still looking forward to being able to map one of the two Shift keys to be AltGr (switching AltGr and the right Control isn't what I want) but I really am quite impressed with the hardware. Like the rest of you, however, I am quite unimpressed by the TE business process.
is the TE supposed to be natively programmable? or only through software, if/when they release it.
The keyboard is supposed to be programmable, but only via software which they have not provided yet.
The high price and the bizarre shift location will be hurting their sales, I'm afraid. They earlier they address these issues, the better chance they'll have to stay on the market.
I think the keycaps are special. I did ask her once (Michelle?) if they'll sell keycap sets and she indicated they would be.
...I think the price is a steal....
But to people who have to be on the computer (like, to put food on the table, as in me) and who have ergo issues (again me), spending a few hundred is a NO BRAINER.
The Kinesis Advantage retails for $269 at several places including Amazon and Fentek-Ind.
the amazon kinesis deal is 269 and free shipping, a TE english blue will be 229 + 19 shipping.
so really imo there is practically no price difference between a TE and Kinesis- NEW.
you can get older kinesis for 50 bucks depending on the condition ... there is no "used" TE for sale and if it will be for sale, ppl will want top dollar for it or even try to "make" money.
of course kinesis palm rests are 20ish bucks as well, Kinesis doesn't come with em (some ppl like it this way) while the TE does provide one.
Bah, I placed my order.
Two things I noticed.
1. There is a currency pulldown up top. This will save you almost $50 if you're in Canada
2. The site checkout is broken in Chrome browser. Had to use Firefox.
As I said I'm looking at the Advantage Pro at $320. The white and black pros pick up too much wear (particularly in the wrist rest) for me to consider them (I have three Pro's). The TE doesn't have the same surface area and the wrist rest is removable which is comparable, wear wise, to the pro IMO. Of course the pro has programmability but we don't know yet the extent of the TE programmability, but at least we know the chipset and have a dev package for it so you can do whatever the heck you want, if you have the where withal.
Comparing a used price from a 20+ year old product plus one that hit the market this morning is hardly a fair comparison in regards to the used market.
The Kinesis has a non removable palm rest with replaceable palm pads, the TE has a removable palm rest with non removable pads (you could remove them but you'd have to get factory originals. You can take this feature how you want, but in my opinion the TE is far more flexible. It's a much lower profile, 1 inch versus 3" (highest point) on the Kinesis, which means it's easier generally to not have a too high profile thereby angling the hands. You pretty much can't, or shouldn't generally, use the Kinesis on a flat surface with the monitor, for a ergo keyboard that is horrible with the hands too high and the monitor too low. You have to both raise the monitor and lower (height adjustable keyboard tray) the keyboard. Also, this from the ergo dept at my workplace, one thing they don't like (and warn you about) the Kinesis is to not rest your palms on the keyboard. Bad ergonomics ... which I agree with, but could never break the habit or tendency. I actually considered putting sandpaper or something on it to remind me not to rest the palms while typing. With the TE, at least for me, the hands float over the rests using them for guidance and only come down when I'm not typing.
Either board may work better for different people, having used both I prefer TE now, thats all.
Wow they are still playing cowboy games.
http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=3
I'm no ergonomics expert, but isn't the monitor too low (by quite a margin) in both cases? Even if the top of the keyboard is closer to the level of the desk, the monitor position would cause the user to look down at an angle and not straight ahead.
Hang on, don't you work in your company's ergo deparmentt?
I noticed on the Blank 109's that when the store first went up they were "In Stock", then went to "5" the next time I checked. The four an hour later and this morning is down to 1. Seems like so far the marketplace has a different feeling about a $229 ergonomic keyboard.
The blue and red 109's are much less popular, still showing "In stock", which probably means 7-10.
I have six, three for my main systems and three backup which will get parceled out for use to various other uses (for work I need keyboards for various equipment and systems). I've got two Kinesis at home and one at work, and previously made do with a Filco on one of the home systems (can't stand the standard format tho). I loaded up while the getting was good, most of them were at $150 (2 preorder) or $200, plus they promised a $50 coupon (due to the delays) which I'm hammering them about.
Yeah I thought somebody posted a comparison picture here before ...
has anyone who ordered received a tracking number or any update on their shipment?
Do any of you guys who have the ISO/ANSI TE find the non-contiguous -+ keys bothersome, either for programming or for graphics apps where they may be used to zoom in/out?
I work mostly in a bash+vim all day so anything that minimizes finger travel will be tops. Out of curiosity, what do you currently use as your weapon of choice?
Do any of you guys who have the ISO/ANSI TE find the non-contiguous -+ keys bothersome, either for programming or for graphics apps where they may be used to zoom in/out?
Hey all. New to the geekhack forums.
[...]
So a question for the OP: I'm a person who's been mostly acquainted with standard/staggered layouts, well this board take a lot of getting used to?
I work mostly in a bash+vim all day so anything that minimizes finger travel will be tops. Out of curiosity, what do you currently use as your weapon of choice?
The Kinesis is a good programmers board, a million times better than any standard. The big deficiency (IMO) is the crummy Function keys and the lack of dual symmetric modifier keys on both hands (Control/Command, Alt/Option, Win/Control for PC and Mac). The curved bowls are nice, but the built in palm rest isn't.
As for the dual symmetric modifiers, I take it you didn't want to lose page up/down nor home/end? Because you'd have to sacrifice at least one of them if you'd remap like I did on the left side (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png) on the right side as well.
My only complaint about the TE is that I wish they had designed it so the function keys sit right above the number key row like the Maltron does. Would be easier to learn and use. I never used the F keys on the Kinesis because I disliked the eraser keys so much, now I'm learning and using them. On the TE I would have brought that row down, then placed the threesome above that.
Why don't you suggest this to TE ? You have a close relationship with them, no? It would be a huge improvement to have the F row right above the number row because you could touch-type the F keys that way. Completely agree with you, the F row should come down and the 3 keys should go on top.
It's fine, not a big deal to me, but is really the only complaint I have at the moment.
I take it you got used to the Shift key locations then?
In my simplistic view, more buttons is better.
So IMO it boils down to this: if you don't have a good use for the extra buttons you're probably better off with bigger buttons.
I hear what you are saying, but I'm thinking about this by comparing to a normal keyboard. The bigger Alt and Hyphen buttons on the 104 key layout is quite different compared to similarly located keys on standard keyboard. We're already used to there being smaller Ctrl, Windows, and Alt keys, so the 109 Key layout seems to give you a nice option by keeping Alt the same size and including another key next to it.
Of course, I've never used an ergonomic keyboard before, so the vertical layout and arrangement could make this whole idea moot. Does anyone who has the 109 key layout agree with what I’m saying? I think there were a couple of people who got that layout - Architect and Gerk I think, maybe others.
I want to buy a TE but it's just too expensive. I know there was a huge discussion about price point a few pages back and I have to throw in with the naysayers. It's a great looking layout and I do really want to try it but it's more than I'm willing to spend sadly. The pre-order price was nice, and I wouldn't mind paying another $25 or so on top of that, but going from $150-180 to $229 is a pretty big jump. I've been staring at the checkout price but can't bring myself to finalize the order. :(
Welcome! Yes, a matrix layout will take some getting used to, but you will most likely love it and start thinking that anything else is bad. It took me a little over 2 weeks on the Kinesis to start loving it (and ordering a second one). The TE felt natural immediately because I'm used to matrix layout already.
The TE is a good product, despite the company's shortcomings, I'm hoping they'll release their firmware programming software soon so I can remap it to my liking (and "fix" the Shift key location) and give it a more extensive trial.
Yeah, I use the navigation keys like crazy for programming. Modifiers are incredibly important too, and without the dual symmetric there are keystrokes you really can't perform, or it's difficult to perform many actions. Especially the heavy use of the Control key in text editing (Emacs bindings) and the Terminal. Option is required with the arrow keys for navigation and many other places, and so on. I did once try remapping page up/page down home/end to the corresponding modifiers but it bricked the board, or rather made it un-resettable. Don't know what happened with that, had to send it into the factory to get rechipped.
from the looks of your sig you have like 10 keyboards lol, why not just sell one or two to get the TE?
The Kinesis would be even more of a luxury item for gaming, but if you're looking for a comfortable keyboard it should also be on the shortlist IMO. :)
the kinesis can be used for FPS too, in a pinch i've used ESDF and it works fine, but WASD is near impossible, due to the keywell. Actually i can find "home" that much faster with the sphericals so it might actually be an advantage, or just get spherical keycaps for homerow.
I ordered a TE and didn’t get anything but the confirmation that they’ve received the order. Seems they are pretty busy these days.
Anybody ordered as well and got more information?
Thanks for the answer. They’ve sent me a message 6 hours ago that my TE was scheduled for shipping on the same day (26th). I’ll get the 109-key version with browns (for OS X, will use the additional keys for option + control). Looking forward to it, the non-staggered layout really should help me with my left hand.
I work mostly in a bash+vim all day so anything that minimizes finger travel will be tops.
Gr. I ordered on the 19th and _still_ have no shipping information.
[snip]I've realized that the stock mapping is nearly the best. This is the ideal mapping for a programmer, and to somebody who uses a keyboard as much as a programmer this is as close to heaven as we're going to get. I've gone beyond getting used to it, and now my work productivity has improved, I'm at least 10% more productive than before and I'm expecting even greater gains still. This is due to greater agility with text handling, less mouse usage (and my little remaining RSI has disappeared), and greater ease with using the modifier keys. Sorry folks, no other keyboard has this ease of use with text and modifier handling, and is this easy on the hands. [snip]
These kind of absolute statements sound about as credible as when they wrote that the TE is better than a Maltron, Kinesis or Datahand, with no further explanation or study to back it up, nor a reply to a question about it... I'm glad you love the TE, and I like a lot about it too (also dislike a few things), but I don't think it's the best keyboard ever. I can think of a few plus points and a few negative points when comparing it to the Advantage (which happens to be my favorite keyboard from the ones I've tried so far), so I can accept that some people might prefer one or the other.
Ah, you edited your post while I was writing a reply.
the keyboard has had a huge positive benefit in my lifeExcellent, happy to read it.
I like to write about how happy I am in one place where people actually care about keyboards. I can't even talk about keyboards with my programming friends and colleagues - nobody cares. Guy next to me who bangs away 8 hours a day is on the crappiest Microsoft Natural keyboard in the world.I can relate, very few of my colleagues have interest in keyboards and such - some have enough to want to try out the TE and Advantage and liking some unusual key cap setups, but by and large they don't care either.
I'm starting to doubt you are a long time Kinesis user. The firmware has changed several times, I have 3 different generations (there are more) and all of them have noticeable firmware differences (newer generations have newer functions added). Also the Caps Lock beep can be turned off for crying out loud.. Just hit Pgm and the - key right under it. It's in the manual.
- Kinesis, the firmware probably hasn't been changed in 20 years. I've had issues with it, I hate the beep when doing a caps lock or any operation
Here we go again. The TE first of all is not $220 but $229, and over $250 shipped. And you shouldn't compare the most expensive Kinesis to the cheapest TE, it doesn't matter that you prefer the metallic finish. If you take extremes the other way around, regular Advantage is $269 shipped, TE with reds shipped is what, $280 ?
- Price, Advantage Pro is 320, TE is 220
Nope, Kinesis is available with brown and red.
- Key switch availability, can get brown, red and blue on the TE, only brown on the Kinesis.
You forgot the LF, so it's 4 options, plus they have international configurations I believe.
- Options - six on the TE, 3 on the Kinesis
Hello, any case needs an opening if you want to add connectors to it. That applies to any device with a USB hub. Are you complaining about the hole shape or what? What a whiner!!! I've used the hub, it works fine and the connectors feel very secure.
- Kinesis has a USB hub. If I recall this was added about 10 years ago, and rather poorly if I recall. They just punched a round hole in the body and mounted the hub.
Doesn't add anything to the keyboard, I'd rather have the board be a board, and my hub external if it craps out.
I have this on my access. It does seem pretty useful that way. I sometimes wish more keyboards would have this.
- TE - dual symmetric arrow blocks! As close to the home position as possible. I use eight fingers to navigate - WITH THE PINKIES AVAILABLE FOR CRITICAL Option (Mac) and Control (Win) modifier with the arrows for word jumps. This is huge! On the Kinesis it's four fingers for one blocks, the other is two thumbs which share modifier duty.
I am still getting used to the modifiers on a kinesis. I'm sort-of having a problem with my /? =+ and -_ keys, as they're in non-intuitive places for a dvorak user. (question mark is like at the bottom). Any idea where I should remap it to? I also have trouble hitting "alt" with the kinesis. I wish there were another key next to the backspace.
- TE - dual symmetric modifier blocks! And a thumb Command/Control left spacebar. This is huge, there are so many times where I need a modifier in the other hand, or a combination of modifier keys (Command-Option, Command-Shift, Command-Shift-Option) which is difficult on the Kinesis. If it takes longer than a quarter second (say) then I won't make the key combination, and just use the mouse instead. I complained about this once to a Kinesis rep, he just came back at me and said why he thought it was the greatest keyboard on the planet. "But it only has ONE control key and ONE modifier key", didn't register with him. Anyhow, in OS X Terminal (where I do significant work) I need the emacs bindings for the bash shell and emacs (Git source control management) and need full access to the control key. When running VMWare I need full access to control and Alt, and need Command, Shift and Option full access when in Cocoa.
Aha! I don't have this issue, with my standing desk. I have two keyboard positions. In the upper one, I'd only rest the very edge of my palms on the kinesis. I'm trying the sower position now, and I only rest my fingers. It's awesome.
- Kinesis Bowls - plus and a minus. On the plus side they provide easier hand centering, but that matters little I think. As a pianist I get very little guidance from the piano keyboard (other than the 3D black keys) and have to do huge hand shifts in a millisecond, and it goes fine. I've adjusted to that on the TE, though I had difficulty for a while. The negative with the bowls is that they encourage you to rest the palms while typing, which my ergo dept keeps warning about and for me causes pain. I can't stop from doing it either, actually considered putting sandpaper (upright) on the rests to remind me (this was an idea from the ergo dept., who have worked with a lot of kinesis users)
I've still not got around to using them I don't think I could bear it. I just move my hand up to my unicomp for that purpose.
- Kinesis function keys. Little rubber erasers. Enough said.
I think if I ever got a kinesis of my own, I'd add some useful keys to the middle.
- TAB KEY. The tab key is all important, used in programming, used in program switching. On the TE it's in the center and usable by both hands and the thumb with a half inch or inch hand movement. On the Kinesis (as all other keyboards) it's relegated off to the side. One hand, only the pinky. The center keys on the TE are equivalent to dual symmetric - meaning they are usable by both hands but you don't need two blocks due to the placement.
You forgot: kinesis comes in red as the "LF" version. Technically speaking, this isn't a problem with availability, as with some time (or pay a GH'er to do it) you can put any cherry switch on it pretty easily. I do think that's just an issue with the wording, as you certainly can buy a TE premade in one more switch: blue
- Key switch availability, can get brown, red and blue on the TE, only brown on the Kinesis.
- Keyboard cover - Kinesis does't have one, the TE does
Not a bother with my standing desk.
- Wrist rest. Removable on the TE, not on the Kinesis without a dremil (which I considered)
I don't think this is as much a good argument as your other ones (which have been consistently good, I just don't agree with them for my purposes). My access's are pretty airtight, and I pulled a LOT of crud out from under the keycaps. It was stuck between the keycaps and plate. I think of keyboards getting dirty as a fact of life. If I have to pull it out of the bottom of the keyboard by opening it up or if I have to get it out from between the keycaps and plate, it's all the same. Your TE will get dirts too, in time. Still, I may be wrong. We both may be wrong. It's really to early to tell. For refrence, there's some fantastic pictures in the Access topic.
- Crud. I don't want to share what I've dug out of my Kinesis, and you'd be surprised what makes it into the main body of the keyboard after 10 years of banging away. Not possible with the tight seams and key well design of the TE.
- Compatability, to this day I have trouble with the Kinesis and OS X. I have a lot of computers running around here, about six or 10 macs, and they nearly all have trouble with the Kinesis (but none with the TE so far). Wake from sleep, goofy this, goofy that. Kinesis blames Apple. Maybe so, but Kinesis is the smaller company and should get it to work with them IMO.
- Double shift caps lock. This is an old, old, old standard. On the Kinesis if I hit both shifts accidentally the keyboard goes into caps lock. I forget what I found about this, maybe it's the operating system, but it's annoying. Doesn't happen on the TE, and frequently happens on the Kinesis to me frequently, indicating it's the keyboard. Maybe it can be turned off, not that I recall however.
I'm starting to doubt you are a long time Kinesis user.
The firmware has changed several times, I have 3 different generations (there are more) and all of them have noticeable firmware differences (newer generations have newer functions added). Also the Caps Lock beep can be turned off for crying out loud.. Just hit Pgm and the - key right under it. It's in the manual.
Here we go again. The Pro is $299 shipped. The TE first of all is not $220 but $229, and over $250 shipped. And you shouldn't compare the [most expensive Kinesis to the cheapest TE, it doesn't matter that you prefer the metallic finish. If you take extremes the other way around, regular Advantage is $269 shipped, TE with reds shipped is what, $280 ?
Nope, Kinesis is available with brown and red.
Hello, any case needs an opening if you want to add connectors to it. That applies to any device with a USB hub. Are you complaining about the hole shape or what? What a whiner!!! I've used the hub, it works fine and the connectors feel very secure. You don't have to use the hub if you have no need for it, it's not a con.
Aha! I don't have this issue, with my standing desk. I have two keyboard positions. In the upper one, I'd only rest the very edge of my palms on the kinesis. I'm trying the sower position now, and I only rest my fingers. It's awesome.
You forgot: kinesis comes in red as the "LF" version. Technically speaking, this isn't a problem with availability, as with some time (or pay a GH'er to do it) you can put any cherry switch on it pretty easily. I do think that's just an issue with the wording, as you certainly can buy a TE premade in one more switch: blue
Thank God, I hate those things.
Not a bother with my standing desk.
I don't think this is as much a good argument as your other ones (which have been consistently good, I just don't agree with them for my purposes).
I don't know about this: Apple is about as workable with other stuff as SUN. I'm really surprised to find USB ports on the back of ours. While I agree that if there's some issue, Kinesis should find and fix it, but Apple seems to exist to make thing more difficult for everyone else. This is one of my many gripes with apple, and why I don't plan on buying from them.
That said, anyone want my mac pro?
When I heard about this (hitting both shifts to get into capslock) I thought it was the best idea ever. It made so much sense! Sadly, it doesn't work for me. Maybe they added it later? maybe it's linux? Maybe it's my adapter?Dunno, I hit it accidentally all the time.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is: some of your arguments aren't really issues with the kinesis, but with your application of it.
TAB KEY>
Compatability, to this day I have trouble with the Kinesis and OS X. I have a lot of computers running around here, about six or 10 macs, and they nearly all have trouble with the Kinesis (but none with the TE so far). Wake from sleep, goofy this, goofy that. Kinesis blames Apple. Maybe so, but Kinesis is the smaller company and should get it to work with them IMO.
customer service kicks TE's ass
I wrote the company but no response (no surprise). On Mac OSX, after the computer is put to sleep (or actually it seems to happen when the computer puts itself to sleep, not when I explicitly sleep it), when it wakes again the keyboard isn't responding. Manually plugging in and out again is required.
OS X has issues with third party hubs, if they have a USB hub at the head of that circuit (common) that might be the problem. Hopefully it's just a firmware bug they can fix. Anybody else seen this? I've had it happen a few times which is really annoying.
- The Advantage requires to be unplugged and re-plugged in after every time I sleep the computer to reset the keyboard firmware, which is to say every day, on OS X. Doesn't matter which USB port it's on, a hub, and I've tried it with two Advantage Pro's. I suspect that Windows is getting some kind of USB reset on wake from sleep (the keyboard gives a click) that OS X isn't doing, however the company is washing their hands of it, and I'm not going to keep replugging the keyboard every day so it's useless.
Run Win 7 in bootcamp on the pro. But Apple USB has been a multi year struggle with me. Seems like Lion has mostly fixed the problems.
Sheesh - maybe it wasn't annoying enough for you to remember.
So both keyboards are useless, yes?
I can't do that, because it didn't come with a graphics card, but I just put the HDD from my old windows box in, and it worked fine. It even recognized almost all the drivers. I'm too lazy to get one of those UEFI compatible apple GPU's.
So: In general, I like all the thought you have put on it, I think it'll really help people get an idea of the choices, and possible things to consider. I think the kinesis will work out better for me, but I have to admit that you raise some good points. Also with all the kinesis fans retaliating, there's a lot of good info here. I hope it will allow people to make the decision that's right for them.
Ironic, indeed. I'm only posting here because I believe you work for TE...
However, I do understand that it's possible for that not to be the case and that I've been bugging you unjustly. So, if you can publish photos of your setups (you do have a lot of gear) that proves your point (the fact you need 3, the height of the kinesis interferes with a boom mic etc and a group shot of your keyboards) , then I'll man up, apologise and back out of the thread.
The ironic thing is that the Kinesis fan club is that it is what causes me to discuss its shortcomings so much. If they didn't 1) continually bash TE and 2) make a stink anything said anything not flattering of Kinesis I wouldn't elaborate the point.
Regarding the TE spy theory, I can't believe you guys still believe in it. :D
Update: Despite me preferring the Advantage so far I'm sure people can be happy with a TE as well. The more people become aware of the awesomeness of non-staggered rows the better, be it with a TE, Advantage, Maltron, TM or whatever. :D
Update 2: Fair enough, I guess I haven't been here for the whole story. Enthusiasm is good, false info is not. There's more and more useful info here though, I just wish more people would talk about their experiences with the TE. Maybe - like me - they haven't given it a long term try for lack of easy remapping. Yes, I could use third party software (I already have a ControllerMate license), but I don't want to do it in several OSs. The beauty of remapping in firmware is to be able to avoid just that...
Look I found more matrix keyboards (http://www.ceratech.co.uk/cpages/keyboards/educational/kyb-monmixlo-usb.htm). :D
* There is no reason to complain about the location of the shift keys. They are in the correct position. All other keyboards put them in the incorrect position.
* The TE designers have addressed the position of the F keys. They claim that putting the F keys in the main column layout is "wrong".
I have no opinion on this. I would not be a person who would touch-type F keys, so it is perfectly natural for me to look down, find the button, and press it. I think they are fine.
* There is no reason to complain about the location of the shift keys. They are in the correct position. All other keyboards put them in the incorrect position.
Basically I'm saying that thumbs are our most useful digits, and I still think they are under-utilized with the TE keyboard.
Seriously, the problem with Shift in regular keyboards is overuse of the pinkies. A real solution to this issue would be to move the Shift in the middle, so it is pressed with the thumb or index finger.
Your guitar teacher was smoking dope.
Your guitar teacher was smoking dope.Yeah, I read about that. Depending on my hand position, my index goes from longer to much longer, but I already knew I was a heterosexual male.
However it is scientifically true if your ring finger is the same or shorter than your index finger then you are gay. Or a girl.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v404/n6777/abs/404455a0.html
Has anyone who ordered recently got their keyboards or at least a shipping notice? Silence on my end, I'm starting to get an inkling of what you guys had to deal with over the past however many years it's been since pre-orders...
I ordered on the 20th, the web site said in stock keyboards ship within 24 hours. I hadn't heard anything, and all the chatter here has made me nervous, so I emailed them on Thursday night. I got a response later that night saying it would ship on Friday the 27th and I would get an email with the tracking number. But, alas, no tracking number so far. I just sent another email tonight. Bah. It doesn't make me feel any better knowing that they already charged my credit card.
Has anyone who ordered recently got their keyboards or at least a shipping notice? Silence on my end, I'm starting to get an inkling of what you guys had to deal with over the past however many years it's been since pre-orders...
Our distributor company, I to I logistics Inc., installed a new shipping system at their office and encountered diverse technical issues preventing them to ship orders during this time. All these issues are now solved and our distributor has restarted shipping our orders.
Your order 76163 will be shipped by Wednesday February 1st. We will send you another email with a tracking number when available.
We sincerely apologize for this unforeseen shipping delay; rest assure we are doing everything we can to make sure you receive your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard as soon as possible.
Regards,
The Truly Ergonomic team
They’ve sent me a tracking number yesterday. I had to ask for it once more. The tracking information indicates that they’ve sent the thing on the 26th (as promised) and it arrived in the US on the 27th. No more updates since then. I hope that it’s my keyboard, since the address does not show up on the tracking page.
Our distributor company, I to I logistics Inc., installed a new shipping system at their office and encountered diverse technical issues preventing them to ship orders during this time. All these issues are now solved and our distributor has restarted shipping our orders.
Your order 76163 will be shipped by Wednesday February 1st. We will send you another email with a tracking number when available.
We sincerely apologize for this unforeseen shipping delay; rest assure we are doing everything we can to make sure you receive your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard as soon as possible.
Regards,
The Truly Ergonomic team
How did you get through to them? I've sent two emails already, the second of which made very clear my desire to get a refund and complain to PayPal if they don't get me some info soon...I’ve explained my special case: I’m living in Europe, but ordered it to a friend in Ohio. He will fly on sunday. I told them I’d have to change order details and delivery address and guess it would have created them more work to deal with that than prioritizing my order. At least they seem to read mail. I also got answers with a name below them :-). btw: The package arrived at my friend’s a couple of hours ago.
I don’t know to which timezone the tracking times refer.
I also sent an email asking about tracking info and they said a shipping date of Jan. 31. I just received my TECK today. So looks like they're at least being somewhat truthful.
On the shift issue, I have my shift mapped to Caps Lock on my otherkeyboards, too. I still use a regular layout at work and I'm actually okay switching back and forth now.
Just curious when you ordered?
Hmm, the Alt <-> Tab distance looks exactly the same on the 109 model (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_78#Model-109), though the Alt key is half size. Unless you have very small hands you'll still be able to Alt-Tab with one hand, though without a doubt it will take some time to adjust to the new fingers used.
Same for the matrix layout, you'll get used to it and most likely notice that it's much more comfortable than the traditional staggered rows layout. Enjoy! :)
Sticky modifiers!
Read about that here some time ago and gave it a try (OS X). I think I could have gotten used to sticky Shift, the other modifiers not so much. Are you using them?
modifier+Program+F6
Hey kuato, glad you got your keyboard. I'm looking forward to reading your experiences down the line.
As for the Shifts, they threw me off too, but I hear you'll get used to them (unless you decide to move them back via software).
Ugh, the alt+tab thing hadn't occurred to me. I ordered the 104 with blues, and should be getting it soon. I actually wish they had kept caps lock around, because I always map it to escape (yes, I'm a vim user). I sure hope this ends up being worth it... I guess I could always take advantage of their 30-day return policy and get a 109 instead, but honestly I do want my keyboard to look nice and having a couple of blank keycaps is bit of a turn-off. (I am not one for an entirely blank keyboard either, as I usually look down to find the F-keys and sometimes---rarely---a number or symbol key).
Sorry for off topic, but this is cool! It has a big drawback compared to sticky keys in X though. In X you can still hold the sticky modifiers down to use as regular modifiers, which is essential for selecting text with the keyboard (outside of vim).
I actually wish they had kept caps lock around, because I always map it to escape (yes, I'm a vim user).
I also code in brace heavy syntax so it might be worthwhile to remap the right hand shift and control to the brace keys. My hands tend to favor using the left hand modifiers for some reason (bad habit?)
Still definitely reccomend the 109 over the 104 as there is simply no reason not to get it imho.
There is a reason. Ctrl, Alt, and Shift are all modifiers, and can be used in combinations. Having them the same (over)size, and one above the other makes perfect sense.
I was sorely tempted to order the 109, but went for the 105 on principle.
Having the Alt keys small, so far away, hidden between other keys, and not in the corner, is pretty much the opposite of ergonomic.
I assume you mean at the location it's usually at? Because does have a Caps Lock (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=79_80) at the top. Personally I like it this way, but then I don't have or use a Caps on my Advantage. I hope you'll find a close enough key to map esc to (possibly move Ctrl to the left space bar (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26248-TECK-notes&p=495546&viewfull=1#post495546) and use the original left Ctrl for esc; or use the left space bar for esc if you prefer; Optionally swap Ctrl and Shift before you do any of this, in case you'd rather not get used to the new Shift location)
It's very similar to learning a new (software) keyboard layout BTW, only that is much harder.
There is a reason. Ctrl, Alt, and Shift are all modifiers, and can be used in combinations. Having them the same (over)size, and one above the other makes perfect sense.
I was sorely tempted to order the 109, but went for the 105 on principle.
Having the Alt keys small, so far away, hidden between other keys, and not in the corner, is pretty much the opposite of ergonomic.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I find that I tend to exclusively use my left thumb for space (using my right thumb on purpose feels weird, though I'm sure I could get used to it if necessary). So my plan was to use right-space for esc. But this realization of not having alt+tab on one hand might make me use it for alt instead... I think a solution can be found.
So maybe I *shouldn't* try to switch to Colemak at the same time as giving the TECK a go...
Unfortunately given their funny keycaps it seems unlikely we'd be able to get a good group buy going for the TECK. Then again I'm still pretty new to this community so maybe someone knows better.
The center column key caps do look quite special :-/, I'll try replacing some others with WASD key caps at some point.
Even the regular keycaps vary in size by row, IIRC (their website shows them).
How did that save you $50? I just tried it in CAD vs. USD and it shows for the same price. $229 in USD is still only like $240 CAD after conversion... Since I'm also in TO I wouldn't mind also saving $50 :D