Author Topic: Northgate rejuvenation?  (Read 55921 times)

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Offline omnigeek

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Northgate rejuvenation?
« on: Sat, 31 May 2014, 02:14:55 »
Has anyone converted a Northgate Omnikey to use Matias clicky or quiet switches?  I've been searching around but couldn't find anyone talking about this.  The Matias switches should swap right in, right?

I've been using Omnikeys for 20+ years and they're (finally?!) starting to show their age a bit -- the keys feel "mushy" or they jam up a tiny bit if I don't hit them dead-center.  I tore one keyboard apart and cleaned all the sliders, housings, etc. (using the very helpful information on this site!)  But it still didn't help very much.

I'm going to try both types of Matias switches to see which ones I like better, and if I can settle on one type then I plan to replace all the switches.  I can't be the first one doing this, right?  Or if I am then I'll report back here with the results  :)

I love the Omnikey Ultra/102 layout with the Ctrl key next to A, Alt below shift, Caps Lock out of the way and the F keys on the left.  I'm so much more productive with that layout.

So, I guess this is a question for Mr. Matias: is there any possibility of producing a keyboard with a layout like the old Omnikeys?  For myself, even if it cost as much as the Half I would probably buy at least one, maybe more, but is anyone else interested in this layout anymore?
Northgate Omnikey Ultra rebuilt w/Matias clickies | Northgate Omnikey 102 | Avant Stellar | [/url]Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:12:14 »
What I would recommend is you leave the original switches soldered in, but swap in the click leaves from Matias clicky switches. I personally like the franken-switch combination of white Alps housing/slider/spring + Matias click leaf better than either of the original switches it’s made from.

Alternately, you could try to bend the switches' current click leaves a bit to restore their 'snap', but be warned that it’s slightly tricky to get a completely consistent result across a whole keyboard.

Alternately you could desolder the current switches and solder in Matias switches, as you’re currently planning. Yes, they are drop-in replacements, with the same physical dimensions.

Alternately, you could buy a cheap old white Alps keyboard from ebay for maybe $30 shipped (or less if you hunt), and swap its switches into your Omnikey.

* * *

If you are happy with the layout and physical shape/heft/etc. of the Omnikey, I’d recommend you just keep using it (maybe with some switch swaps): no keyboard you buy new in 2014 is going to have the same kind of solidity. Or do you have features that you need that the Omnikey doesn’t provide (portability, USB, customizable firmware, ...)?
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 June 2014, 01:23:12 by jacobolus »

Offline omnigeek

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 02 June 2014, 00:42:09 »
Thanks for the reply; I didn't know the franken-switch idea would work, but I'll give that a try on a couple of them and see how it compares.  I'm just concerned that part of the problem with the keyboard now might be that the housings are worn out as well as the sliders, i.e. both pieces might be contributing to the binding/sticking problem.  So that's why I was thinking of doing the extra work to solder all new switches in.

I was originally going to harvest some switches off a donor keyboard as you suggested, but using new switches seems more likely to result in a consistent feel across the whole keyboard.  So I was really glad to find out about the Matias switches.

I really do like everything about the Omnikeys -- the weight, solid feel, the clacky noise they make that lets everyone within earshot know how much work I'm getting done  :thumb:  Most of all the layout though.  I used an Omnikey 101 for a while, but it's just not comfortable for me to use the Ctrl, Alt or F-keys on that layout.  I honestly don't see how anyone who does serious typing or programming can stand it, but I guess I'm in the minority on that one.  So I'll hang on to my Omnikeys and Avants as long as they keep working, or until their layout gets old enough to come back in style  :cool:

Northgate Omnikey Ultra rebuilt w/Matias clickies | Northgate Omnikey 102 | Avant Stellar | [/url]Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline nuclearsandwich

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 02 June 2014, 00:50:47 »
Thanks for the reply; I didn't know the franken-switch idea would work, but I'll give that a try on a couple of them and see how it compares.  I'm just concerned that part of the problem with the keyboard now might be that the housings are worn out as well as the sliders, i.e. both pieces might be contributing to the binding/sticking problem.  So that's why I was thinking of doing the extra work to solder all new switches in.

I was originally going to harvest some switches off a donor keyboard as you suggested, but using new switches seems more likely to result in a consistent feel across the whole keyboard.  So I was really glad to find out about the Matias switches.

I really do like everything about the Omnikeys -- the weight, solid feel, the clacky noise they make that lets everyone within earshot know how much work I'm getting done  :thumb:  Most of all the layout though.  I used an Omnikey 101 for a while, but it's just not comfortable for me to use the Ctrl, Alt or F-keys on that layout.  I honestly don't see how anyone who does serious typing or programming can stand it, but I guess I'm in the minority on that one.  So I'll hang on to my Omnikeys and Avants as long as they keep working, or until their layout gets old enough to come back in style  :cool:

Switch cleaning and lubrication might do wonders for you too. I don't feel that much difference between Matias clicky and complicated white although I feel like I *hear* a difference but that could be steel plate vs plastic plate as well.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 02 June 2014, 01:12:23 »
Thanks for the reply; I didn't know the franken-switch idea would work, but I'll give that a try on a couple of them and see how it compares.  I'm just concerned that part of the problem with the keyboard now might be that the housings are worn out as well as the sliders, i.e. both pieces might be contributing to the binding/sticking problem.  So that's why I was thinking of doing the extra work to solder all new switches in.
My guess is that the click leaves are the main part that’s worn down (not the sliders or housings), or possibly the switch-actuation leaves (which might require desoldering to fix, but also can just be bent a bit and will usually resume working). But definitely test stuff out for yourself. :-)

Offline omnigeek

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 00:52:38 »
I got the Matias switches in, and the soldering went so smoothly on the first couple that I got lazy and just soldered the rest in (didn't try the franken-switch idea yet).  But I have to say -- WOW!  These feel at least as good if not better than what I remember these Omnikeys feeling like when they were new.

I had already taken all the housings/sliders/click-leaves apart, soaked the plastic parts in warm water with a little laundry detergent, and got everything clean, dry and residue-free as far as I could tell.  (I didn't do any lubing, and the clicky leaves looked clean enough so I left those alone too -- maybe that was still part of the problem, I don't know.)  After doing the cleaning, there was still binding on a lot of the keys if I hit them off-center, and the keyboard just generally felt a bit stiff and hard to use.

So, I swapped out a selection of keys, including the ones that had the worst binding problems with the old switches, plus a few of the more critical ones like the spacebar, Enter key, Ctrl and Tab.  The new keys are super-smooth and have no binding or sticking whatsoever, no matter what part of the key I hit.

The quiet ones have a very nice feel and don't produce much sound, but don't seem to "hit bottom" quite as positively as the clicky ones.

As for the clicky ones, they're indistinguishable from the keys in my Avant Stellar (which are in relatively new condition) and some of the less worn-out keys on this Omnikey.

Needless to say, I'm very impressed and can't wait to get the rest of these keys replaced!  Thanks again for the replies and I'll report back once it's all done!
Northgate Omnikey Ultra rebuilt w/Matias clickies | Northgate Omnikey 102 | Avant Stellar | [/url]Visit the Typing Test and try!

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 01:48:54 »
Awesome to hear! As you say, clicky Matias switches are very similar to “complicated” white Alps in feel, and I too really like the Matias switches, both quiet and clicky. (Though I think they would be even closer to perfect if both types took just slightly less force to actuate, maybe 5-10 grams-force less.)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 01:55:09 »
Switch cleaning and lubrication might do wonders for you too. I don't feel that much difference between Matias clicky and complicated white although I feel like I *hear* a difference but that could be steel plate vs plastic plate as well.
There’s definitely a bit of a sound difference, I think mainly caused by the Alps switches having a bit more stuff inside the switch, which makes the switch a bit less hollow/echoey. Even older Alps switches with the tall switchplates (e.g. blue or orange) sound even a bit less hollow than the Alps switches with the short switchplates, I find.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 June 2014, 01:57:49 by jacobolus »

Offline omnigeek

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Re: Northgate rejuvenation?
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 21 June 2014, 23:07:47 »
So I went ahead and replaced all the switches on my Omnikey Ultra with Matias clicky switches, and I've been using it for a week.  I couldn't be more impressed -- the switches are very smooth and tactile, and maybe just a tiny bit lighter than the original Alps switches.  The whole keyboard types at least as good as new, and since it's got the layout I like and it's built like a tank, it's regained the spot as my favorite keyboard of all time.

For anyone with an old Northgate or Avant keyboard where the switches have gotten stiff, sticky, bumpy or just don't feel like new anymore, I highly, HIGHLY recommend the Matias switches to breathe new life into it.  I'm really surprised lots of people haven't been doing this already, but maybe there just aren't that many of these keyboards around anymore  :(

Here's the story of how the switch-swap went, for anyone else who might want to do this:

I took off the cover before taking the keycaps off -- it seemed to make it a little easier to get the caps off.  And for the 6 keys with those little stabilizer bars built in (the space, Enter, backspace, left shift, keypad Insert and keypad Enter) I slid a screwdriver in and popped the stabilizing clip out first before removing the keycap, in an attempt to avoid damaging the little black plastic holders that hold the metal stabilizers in place.

68664-0

After getting the caps off, the next step was to unsolder the old switches.  This generally went pretty easily  using this nice solder sucker from All Electronics.  Unfortunately a bunch of the switches were installed with their solder tabs bent over, which seemed totally unnecessary and caused a bit of extra work -- I had to first pry the tabs up while melting the solder, then melt it again to suck the solder out.

I should also note at this point that I had already replaced a handful of the switches with the Matias clicky switches as an initial test, and I left those in.  This meant that the keyboard PCB stayed attached to the metal plate the whole time, which seemed to make the reassembly easier -- I didn't have to worry about the board flopping around while I put the first few new switches in.  The downside is that it was a little more work to blow all the dust bunnies out from between the metal plate and the PCB, but it still wasn't too hard to get it cleaned up.

After getting all the remaining old switches out and making sure the PCB holes were clean, it looked like this:

68666-1

Putting the new switches in was a piece of cake -- they just dropped right in and stayed perfectly in place, so I didn't need to bend the solder tabs over.  The only exceptions were the Insert and Delete on the middle keypad -- for those I put each switch in place, turned the keyboard upside-down and set it down on a pair of needle-nose pliers with rubberized handles, so that the switch was resting on one of the handles.  This held the switch in place to be resoldered.  Here's the keyboard with a full set of new switches:

68668-2

After getting all the switches soldered in, I put the keycaps back on.  This generally seemed to require more force than with the original Alps switches -- maybe the Matias slider holes are a tiny bit tighter?  Or maybe it was just because they were new.  I had to wiggle each cap back and forth against the slider in order to get it started.  Then, in order to avoid stressing the PCB and getting any cracks in the traces, I pushed against the back of the PCB while pushing each keycap on until I got that satisfying "snap!" when the keycap seated.

After that, I just bolted it back together and started enjoying typing bliss :-)

Here's the "before" picture, which is about the same as the "after" picture would look:

68670-3

Bottom line: if Matias ever makes a keyboard with the Ultra layout I'll still buy one, but until then this is the next best thing!  :thumb:
Northgate Omnikey Ultra rebuilt w/Matias clickies | Northgate Omnikey 102 | Avant Stellar | [/url]Visit the Typing Test and try!