It looks like a grand piano ;DThe thumb pad is lower than the rest of the board. It needs a different pcb.
would be awesome if the case works with ergodox, I would definitely want one!
Yeah, if you could start selling these that would be great.The thought crossed my mind, since I have direct access to the tools (including a Pick & Place machine) I would hopefully be able to keep it on the affordable side too. I'll keep this thread updated if I decide to go down that path.
It looks like a grand piano ;D
would be awesome if the case works with ergodox, I would definitely want one!
woah. that is beautiful. the curves and legs remind me of a grand piano.
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.
By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.
i think you can guess what i think of this. freaking awesome
not sure i like the legs though, i know it goes with the piano theme but they just seem like out of place with the design
maybe if you had a chunk of acrylic cut just like i have on my ergodox in wood.
edit. btw i love the solid color acrylic case for the ergodox, you could get those cut and sell them easily, i would buy one.
edit2: oh snap thats not an ergodox is it on the right? win!
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.
By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.
Now that I took a closer look at it, I have to say that this was more impressive than I thought it was. That's 10 layers of acrylic in the design, isn't it? And just a thought for your consideration - a fullhand design with integrated wrist rests are better for tenting. It's very tiring to float your hands all the time with a classic case when its so high up all the time.
By the way, the cuts you made are so much cleaner than the default ergodox cases. I bet you could sell those to people if the costs of your cutting isn't too high.
I completely agree about the floating, so tonight I did a new design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)
I widened the edges a bit, and extended the palm rest, updating the design of the curve as I did. I also moved the pinkie keys down a few millimeters, which feels more comfortable to reach with. The result is far more comfortable than the previous iteration, so now I may just have to cut some pretty 6mm clear spacer pieces and peel off all that protective paper. I'll be able to test better when my new keycaps come in, but I think this is pretty damn close to where I want to be with it design wise.
AcidFire, Are you done with the modification of the PCB? Are you planning on uploading them to the ergodox website?
Is it essentially just a Quadradox, with the thumb cluster split out of each of the main boards? If so, are you planning on using Ben's firmware?
Needless to say, you have piqued my interest.
Great work
As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.
As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.
Is that with or without switches? I'd love to order one without, saving my whites for it.
Also, if the wireless also supports wired I'm totally in for (at least) one, if it doesn't I'm totally in for a wired.
I'm sure I'll be able to make a kit available without switches given how many people on here already have their preferences ;) How much that'll change price I'm not sure yet, probably 40-50.
Oh and since I forgot to address it, with the wireless, yes it'll work while it's plugged in and charging. Nothing's worse that having your wireless keyboard go dead in the middle of a coding marathon ;)
Any price range in mind?He said 200-250 plus 50-100 for wireless in an earlier post.
hmm... the whole keyboard for 200~250 or just the case?Since he said he would offer kits with the switches removed for 40-50 less, and the fact there's a seperate price for wireless, I'd venture to say it's the whole kit.
hmm... the whole keyboard for 200~250 or just the case?Since he said he would offer kits with the switches removed for 40-50 less, and the fact there's a seperate price for wireless, I'd venture to say it's the whole kit.
Oh and since I forgot to address it, with the wireless, yes it'll work while it's plugged in and charging. Nothing's worse that having your wireless keyboard go dead in the middle of a coding marathon ;)
Nice. I like wireless boards, but not buying batteries and not being able to plug in. You have officially designed my ideal (plausible) keyboard.
Will the data be over usb or bluetooth when it's in charging mode? Mostly ask since I'd like to be able to use it at the bios phase (or on others computers without bluetooth) when necessary.Any price range in mind?He said 200-250 plus 50-100 for wireless in an earlier post.
- Each half will have a ATMEGA32u4 w/ an open source bootloader. I had considered just using the Teensy 2.0's, however open source & open hardware is very much a part of what I do for work that I don't feel right using something close sourced when I have other options. The ironic thing is, I'm using a full controller in each because I plan to use a Bluegiga WT12 bluetooth radio (which is closed source) in each half (eventually) to set the whole thing up as wireless and compatible w/ my mobile devices.
Using an I2C bus for the keys allows for simple modifications & tweaks, especially w/ customizing the layout as the MCU will be laid out on a separate board, and additional peripherals/keypads/foot switches could be added w/ minimal effort.
So basically, there will only need to be 4 pin connectors between each board and each half will have three boards for now (not including the bluetooth.)
There a few more additions/plans I have for the board that I'll be keeping a surprise for now, but I think they'll add an interesting touch to the project ;)
The other reason as well that I'm not planning to use existing firmware is that I plan to produce a proper configuration tool that would allow myself & others to configure/set keys w/o having to mess around with the firmware. I have it laid out right now to support 8+ layers, possibly more, all stored on the boards so that you can take your setup with you and not need the software.
As I've already had a few people inquire to a kit both here and in my office, the rough number I have for the base setup w/o keycaps is between 200-250, and probably another 50-100 for the wireless addon. Also, since I don't think I had made it clear at the start, everything I produce for this project will be released open source/open hardware, either when the project is complete or after I've made a kit available for sale.
Hopefully portions of Ben's work, written in C and MIT licensed, will be useful when programming the ATMEGA. Specifically the macros, sticky keys, and the unicode string output. He put a lot of work into branch 2 https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware). He also lists all the literature that he read when writing things up in the main branch
Ah foot switches for layer/mode switching, something that has been tumbling around in my head for some time, exciting.
So the envsioned "full stack" would be:Pretty much, w/ a lipo charging & monitoring circuit for each board. Depending on how truely wireless I want to go, each half would have a bluetooth module, with one slaved to the other. The other option would be a pair of wireless radios in each talking to a base station that connects either via bluetooth or USB, which could also open the possibility of wireless footswitches, keypads, etc etc. Either would work in theory, remains to be seen how well it works in practice. I have access to both setups at work so there will be thorough testing for both.
- ATmega32U4 * 2
- ({7,8}x5) digit cluster * 2
- variable thumb cluster via MCP230008 * 2
- 1? BlueGiga WT12 Bluetooth (optional)
mutters impatientlyI promise it'll all become clear once I get my PCBs done ;)
Ambitious, I knew that ergodox had started something special but this has now reached the next level.I agree, the biggest issue I'm concerned with now is the best way to write something that's cross platform with as little work/modification needed for each as possible. Right now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)
Are you prepared to handle the level of demand that you are likely to get? I believe that the initial massdrop generated 400+ sales, and many of those had additional constraints, both by region and order details(+/- various parts).So far I don't see a problem. I work for a company that has a fair bit of experience producing electronics & robotics kits en masse, and they've already shown an interest in helping me to produce kits if that's the road I take.
How would you deal with keycaps? not including them in the "retail" package?
Right now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)
QuoteRight now I'm leaning towards something in Java (I feel dirty just saying it.)
Surely Python could handle the cross-platform config tool + gui with similar ease? AFAIK, at least one version comes standard on all 3 major operating systems, though I am not sure about Android or iOS.
Neither is my primary language but my blech! factor is much higher with Java.
After a brief search I discovered that Python does not come standard in windows, but this exists http://www.py2exe.org/ (http://www.py2exe.org/). Which solves the windows problem, Most Linux distros and OSX come with python, Though I suppose that making an OSX binary would be fine too, given the homogeneity of the platform. I would be willing to do some leg work on figuring out the cross compilation situation with ARM and the phone OSes to avoid Java.
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
If you did this it would no longer almost be my ideal board. There would be no need for the almost.
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
I mean it's definitely the least necessary thing compared to everything else, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want rainbows as I type if it's not too hard between having to make room for more traces on the pcb and firmware.I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
If you did this it would no longer almost be my ideal board. There would be no need for the almost.
Lol, glad to hear it. I've put out a number of inquiries for the LEDs I need to see if I can get them lower than the price I've found. It'll be the last thing I develop, but I definitely would like to know if its something I need to keep in mind design wise.
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
What LED do you have in mind. I did lots of research on this and I was only able to do this by using a surface mount RGB LED and dremeling out the LED spot (which isn't hard at all). If you could find on that does fit (3mm) each keyswitch only has two bottom holes (It looks like it is a full bar but the bottom half isn't) so you still have to dremel them out. I mention it because most people won't want to do it IMO. I love the idea of an RGB keyboard and wanted to do it with the Ergodox but it has to be built into the board because I just did a wired mod and it was insane with the wiring and that was just for one color. If you are interested the best and simpliest controller for the LEDs is the Colordunio. It can control 64 RGB leds and does white balance, etc. It can be controlled via I2C and you can chain them as they have I2C in and out, plus you slap an FTDI controller and you just plug and power it all via USB. It is a full arduino too and easy to program plus their is a c library so you can write you own code. For example you can do neat things like have the 1-9 keys show CPU usage or go from green to red to show it. I have tested this out and it is pretty neat. Also note if you get a surface mount part it has to be very bright, much brighter than you think in my tests because even with it drilled out you are just projecting a cone of light surrounded by very solid black opaque material and a little hole.
I mean it's definitely the least necessary thing compared to everything else, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want rainbows as I type if it's not too hard between having to make room for more traces on the pcb and firmware.
I'm curious how interested people might be in an add on that would give you addressable RGB LEDs for each key? With what I have in mind, it could be added later (with a bit of work) or the easier method which would be to add it while you're building the kit. The add on would probably cost 60-80 unless I can find cheaper versions of the LEDs I have in mind.
What LED do you have in mind. I did lots of research on this and I was only able to do this by using a surface mount RGB LED and dremeling out the LED spot (which isn't hard at all). If you could find on that does fit (3mm) each keyswitch only has two bottom holes (It looks like it is a full bar but the bottom half isn't) so you still have to dremel them out. I mention it because most people won't want to do it IMO. I love the idea of an RGB keyboard and wanted to do it with the Ergodox but it has to be built into the board because I just did a wired mod and it was insane with the wiring and that was just for one color. If you are interested the best and simpliest controller for the LEDs is the Colordunio. It can control 64 RGB leds and does white balance, etc. It can be controlled via I2C and you can chain them as they have I2C in and out, plus you slap an FTDI controller and you just plug and power it all via USB. It is a full arduino too and easy to program plus their is a c library so you can write you own code. For example you can do neat things like have the 1-9 keys show CPU usage or go from green to red to show it. I have tested this out and it is pretty neat. Also note if you get a surface mount part it has to be very bright, much brighter than you think in my tests because even with it drilled out you are just projecting a cone of light surrounded by very solid black opaque material and a little hole.
The LEDs I have in mind are SMD, are roughly 2x1.5mm and RGB. I'd be using them in an array similar to the keys, using a set of 74HC595s & something along the lines of a ATMEGA8/168/328 on an I2C bus. We've already got libraries written for this at work so I can reduce the size of everything as much as possible. This board would come preassembled as it would be far simplier for me to troubleshoot and for you guys to put together if you don't have to solder 360 tiny leds. This would be the arrangement of the LEDs under the switch:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/rgb-leds.png)
So is your idea to have all of them fully addressable or in sets of 4? I would assume as sets of 4 but I could do some really neat things if I could light different sections of a key up.
As for placement, in my test it was better to offset the LEDs so they are not right in the center. The reason being is that you are projecting the light in the thickest part of the key not in the wells of the key. This can be both good and bad but if you are using small LEDs. I would recommend setting them just off center a bit so you can avoid wasting light projecting it into the plus sign supports of the key and actually into the four wells of the key instead.
So is your idea to have all of them fully addressable or in sets of 4? I would assume as sets of 4 but I could do some really neat things if I could light different sections of a key up.
As for placement, in my test it was better to offset the LEDs so they are not right in the center. The reason being is that you are projecting the light in the thickest part of the key not in the wells of the key. This can be both good and bad but if you are using small LEDs. I would recommend setting them just off center a bit so you can avoid wasting light projecting it into the plus sign supports of the key and actually into the four wells of the key instead.
Yes, the 4 LEDs would act as one for the first revision as doing independent control of each would be a fair bit more complicated, but I like the idea :) I've added it to my list of features to explore in a future revision.
As for the placement of the LEDs, I'm going to do a test board with each switch having the LEDs in a different position so I can do a visual test to see what would work.
First revision as in software only or hardware too?
Would be nice if the traces were set up so it could be changed later in firmware, but I understand why that might not be plausible.
So will I be able to talk to this via software/api over USB so I can do custom lighting which changes at runtime?
The led indicators sound pretty useful.
The battery one reminded me, what are you doing battery wise? Small rechargeable lithium battery? Really anything that lasts a good while (and can be replaced without soldering) is good.
Should last a week (I'm hoping) without needing a recharge, but we'll see how everything works out in reality.
Sounds like plentiy, seeing as recharging is simple. Will probably be a lot less on average though, due to unexplainable desire to keep 300something leds on full brightness.
Sounds like plentiy, seeing as recharging is simple. Will probably be a lot less on average though, due to unexplainable desire to keep 300something leds on full brightness.
This may be quite a subjective question, but what incline (degrees) seems to be the most comfortable when using 'The Grand Piano'?
So you are planning to design/make the PCB at this point correct?Yes, I expect I will be doing atleast one more PCB revision before settling on something I'd feel comfortable producing in volume. Right now these layouts are more of a testing set up than anything else, hence the two sets of 12 pin headers for the LEDs & switches. I'll be designing the thumbs and breakout boards for both the main 32u4 controllers, as well as a breakout for the 828 micros as well. I'm hoping to get my order in by Friday.
PCB Looks great. So based on your PCB it looks like this version is for single channel through hole LEDs correct? Still interested in grabbing a board just curious.The single channel will always be a built in option. The RGB board I mentioned would be paired w/ a 1.5mm piece of acrylic or similar and would replace the switch mounting plate. Effectively, each key would have a central LED or ring of LEDs (or both if you so chose), but it gives the end user more options for customization, or not, depending on what they want to spend. If you were to choose to have both the central LED -and- the secondary ring, they would live on separate addresses in the API, allowing for total control for each key.
Sounds great. Let me know where to throw my money if you are looking to get boards alreadyHey, I was offering to throw money first!
Well the encouragement on this forum and elsewhere has been a big driving factor to the development time ;) I'm also now pushing to get it done sooner than later, since Kickstarter will be opening it's doors to Canada by the end of the summer. This would allow me to reach a broader audience quickly, meaning far less waiting for funding to do some of the stuff that's been earmarked as down the road, not to mention hopefully putting the kind of funds I need together to do proper backlit keys.Sounds great. Let me know where to throw my money if you are looking to get boards alreadyHey, I was offering to throw money first!
But seriously, this is sounding great, you're making amazingly fast progress. One of the fastest idea->prototype->production cycles for something of this scale I've seen if your pcb time estimates are correct.
I'm just eager to start doing some programming for the lights after I finished my backlit Kinesis project
If there's any dev gel you need on the lighting let me know if I can help.
That's awesome that you're taking this to a Kickstarter. I really like the concept and I'm eager to see where this is going in the future.
:O it's on kickstarter?It isn't up yet as I've still got a ways to go to a working prototype & Kickstarter isn't available directly to Canadians yet. They've announced that it'll be available to us by the end of the summer, so I've got lots of time to develop and put together a good project. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it's available.
i like where this is going except i am still not thrilled about the feet if you are still going that direction of the poles.
Say, is the final case going to be layered acrylic or something else? If it's something else, look at the feet on the apple adjustable II. I couldn't see it working well not built into the case though.
Looks great!I have something else in mind for that ;) It won't be a part of the initial project, but I've already built in the capacity to add it quickly.
One thought while handling the layout for LEDs it would be great if there were the ability to handle extra LEDs other than just the ones for the keys. Maybe 10 extra (or what ever works out) so I could add custom things like which layer is on, etc
I don’t know why but I always fear of easily breaking the micro usb :SI've actually broken the connector off a couple of breakout boards before while fighting the locking connectors, hence my hesitation to use it for this.
Mini.
I find it "sticks" better.
Probably mini just because I always seem to have extra mini cables lying around
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?
Are u open to us sending you money to get an extra board with your order?
No problem. :)
What is the timeline for mass-production and shipment? Based on your progress, it looks we can see the final product by the end of this year.1. I absolutely agree, and once I've got a better idea of what I need I'll be talking to someone like SP to make this happen.
Also, a few suggestions:
1. Have legend keycaps to ensure there is a higher level of acceptance at Kickstarter.
2. Offer a choice of cases. As you know, acrylic has a number of drawbacks. Aluminium will probably have problem with wireless. Have you considered carbon fiber? It will be the coolest KB in the market.
3. If you can put a trackpoint/trackball on the right-hand side (in your future development), it will be my ideal KB.
You should compare Kickstarter to a website called Indiegogo, I heard they take less commission compared to Kickstarter.I have, and while Indiegogo is nice for fees and the fact that you can do flex funding, they don't attract nearly the traffic or attention that projects on kickstarter do. We know several people who have campaigned on both platforms and we've been told time and again that kickstarter was the much bigger draw/success.
It definitely works out better, however I'd have to do some real world testing to see how well they light a key evenly.
It definitely works out better, however I'd have to do some real world testing to see how well they light a key evenly.
Don't know if you remember but I mentioned I did testing like this with the offset layout like you did here with surface mount parts and it actually works out much much better because when they are centered you are splitting one of the bars of the plus sign with each led. This way it works out much much better because you fill the well of the keys and results in much more even coloring. Also it helps shin through the keys because the bars of the plus sign are much much thicker.
Hmmm. That is a great question and I remember making spreedsheets but I need to find them but it is one of those loss of hard drive things. I remember looking at a number of them. The only one I can think of right of the bat was the first one I did a quick test on. It is obviously WAY too big but it is what I had on hand because it is very common in arduino work. That one is the 5050 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10866
Not really too helpful but I know most of them looked very good that were much smaller viewing angles (don't remember how small) as long as you used two. I didn't do as many tests with four LEDs because I didn't know I could wire four. I would imagine you could get pretty narrow unless you have completely transparent keycaps as they will serve as a diffuser.
So, a quick update for those of you who might be interested in a kit. I've got my first round of quotes back, and for PCBs:
Each kit is 2x Main, 2x Thumb, 1x CPU
50 - $34.00
125 - $19.80
250 - $15.12
Keep in mind, this doesn't include the setup costs which is roughly $175/board for the main & thumb. I've also asked them to quote me for 500 kits.
Also, SP got back to me with some numbers as well. The kit as I requested it:
- 58x Size 1 DSA
- 14x Size 1.5 DSA
- 6x Size 2 DSA
Kit 1 - Clear ABS - Blank
100 sets $28.28 per set
150 sets $27.77 per set
200 sets $27.51 per set
250 sets $27.36 per set
500 sets $27.05 per set
Kit 2 - Clear ABS, Vinyl Coating (Black) to allow for etching
100 sets $50.59 per set
150 sets $50.10 per set
200 sets $49.85 per set
250 sets $49.71 per set
500 sets $49.41 per set
I haven't asked them for the regular caps yet as these were the prices I was more interested in. The clear ABS is pretty reasonable. The coated black seem a bit pricy, but I've also never seen the finish on them either. Melissa @ SP is sending me a couple of the coated keys to try out in the laser and see if they're worth getting, in the meantime I'm going to do a bit more reading and see if I can come up with a better solution.
There is a clear pbt/polycarb blend that may be interesting as a premium set.
So let me get this straight, it's modular. Damn, now I'm going to have to spend a fortune buying keyboard modules.
Not that I'm complaining :D.
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor. I would recommend asking SP about a semi transparent set not clear. Have you seen my video of the led lighting I did for my Kinesis a few weeks back? Those are semi transparent and the diffuse fairly well but not completely I would image anything less and it would be difficult to look at even with wide angle LEDs
They do, the frosted pbt/poly caps. They just don't have full sets yet.You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor. I would recommend asking SP about a semi transparent set not clear. Have you seen my video of the led lighting I did for my Kinesis a few weeks back? Those are semi transparent and the diffuse fairly well but not completely I would image anything less and it would be difficult to look at even with wide angle LEDs
I asked but unfortunately was told that they don't have anything semi transparent, so I'd probably have to look elsewhere. Perhaps something I need to ask GMK about.
So, a quick update for those of you who might be interested in a kit. I've got my first round of quotes back, and for PCBs:
Each kit is 2x Main, 2x Thumb, 1x CPU
50 - $34.00
125 - $19.80
250 - $15.12
Keep in mind, this doesn't include the setup costs which is roughly $175/board for the main & thumb. I've also asked them to quote me for 500 kits.
Also, SP got back to me with some numbers as well. The kit as I requested it:
- 58x Size 1 DSA
- 14x Size 1.5 DSA
- 6x Size 2 DSA
Kit 1 - Clear ABS - Blank
100 sets $28.28 per set
150 sets $27.77 per set
200 sets $27.51 per set
250 sets $27.36 per set
500 sets $27.05 per set
Kit 2 - Clear ABS, Vinyl Coating (Black) to allow for etching
100 sets $50.59 per set
150 sets $50.10 per set
200 sets $49.85 per set
250 sets $49.71 per set
500 sets $49.41 per set
I haven't asked them for the regular caps yet as these were the prices I was more interested in. The clear ABS is pretty reasonable. The coated black seem a bit pricy, but I've also never seen the finish on them either. Melissa @ SP is sending me a couple of the coated keys to try out in the laser and see if they're worth getting, in the meantime I'm going to do a bit more reading and see if I can come up with a better solution.
So about $250+switches for a fully functional board? That's very nice!
So about $250+switches for a fully functional board? That's very nice!
Actually, if I get the numbers back that I'm hoping for for the switches, it should be more like $200 including caps & switches.
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.
Hopefully these are helpful to you:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.
Hopefully these are helpful to you:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)
Goodness gracious! That is a beautiful prototype!
I agree. You have a great sense for design, AcidFire.
My god, this project is beautiful. Sexiest keyboard.
I love it, it looks amazing.
Can you post more pictures of the tenting system. Interested, I might use something like this for my upcoming Ergodox.
Hopefully these are helpful to you:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14223.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14224.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14230.jpg)
Goodness gracious! That is a beautiful prototype!I agree. You have a great sense for design, AcidFire.My god, this project is beautiful. Sexiest keyboard.I love it, it looks amazing.
Thanks folks, the encouragement is much appreciated and very gratifying considering this is my first kick at the can with custom mech keyboards :)
this is my first kick at the can with custom mech keyboards :)
Wat. Impossible.
I don't believe you one bit.
Wat. Impossible.I don't believe you one bit.
Haha, seriously. With the exception of my Amiga 500 w/ NMB Hi-Tek switches, I've never owned a proper mech keyboard, nor was properly aware of their existence until early June. I was down in Seattle for the Mini Maker Faire, was visiting the Metrix Create Space and one of the fellows there was working on a custom wired board using browns I think wired to a Teensy 3.0. This peaked my interest as I love this kind of customization (or customization of any kind, I like making things my own) and a bit of research led me from the Kinesis boards to the ErgoDox to here. I have to give credit to Litster for his original design, without his I think mine would be quite different (and not in a good way.)
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =pI could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.
It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =pI could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00
Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.
Any chance of that those stands being compatible with the regular Ergodox case? =pI could probably design a similar stand for the ergodox, depending on how much interest there is.It all looks really well made, nice work. PS: You could sell this.Thank you! I've had such positive & encouraging feedback that I'm moving towards making these available for sale. I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00
Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.
Let me know when I can throw money at you.
Seriously.
;D
Keep watching this space, hopefully the first details for the kickstarter will go up in august :D
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
Also, I found a bit of time to sit down and better outline what I have planned for the initial stage of this project.
*** Revision 1 Features ***
- 6KRO+modifiers w/ USB, NKRO w/ PS/2 Option
For myself, I've already got the switches I want to use. Judging from expressed interest in other threads, I would suggest MX Clear, White, and Greens. But I've also seen people lately looking for MX Brown, so I may be off base.
Maybe see what you can get, let people choose from those options?
Is full NKRO over PS2 just a possibility?
Or has it actually been functionally tested?
What I'm asking is if you know if the KB controller
that you have in mind has a history of actually being
capable of doing full NKRO over PS2.
Having that capability, plus using Soarer's converter,
will result in full NKRO over USB.
And that will be 100% working on everything, including Macs.
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
I use blues for keyboards like this as I use them for typing. I also like browns because I use a kinesis and might choose those too.
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
How is it helping with your wrist pain issue?I can't comment on that yet as I don't yet have my boards in hand to test with, however they do sit on either side of my keyboard right now. Typically when I take a break from typing and rest my hands on them, there is definitely a noticeable reduction in the strain. I'm very much looking forward to making them my daily driver :D
How is it helping with your wrist pain issue?I can't comment on that yet as I don't yet have my boards in hand to test with, however they do sit on either side of my keyboard right now. Typically when I take a break from typing and rest my hands on them, there is definitely a noticeable reduction in the strain. I'm very much looking forward to making them my daily driver :D
Is full NKRO over PS2 just a possibility?
Or has it actually been functionally tested?
What I'm asking is if you know if the KB controller
that you have in mind has a history of actually being
capable of doing full NKRO over PS2.
Having that capability, plus using Soarer's converter,
will result in full NKRO over USB.
And that will be 100% working on everything, including Macs.
The library I'm working from is set up for it, and I know the controller can handle it, but at this point I don't have my boards yet on hand to test it for myself, but I plan to make it happen one way or the other. Would you mind linking me to Soarer's converter?
Out of curiousity, what types of switches would everyone be looking for? I've got a quote request out to a few places for pretty much all the common colors, but it would be helpful to have a bit more of a solid idea.
Great answer! Thanks!
Short answer: I'd order Cherry MX Red switches.That sir, is an absolutely fantastic answer! I'll definitely up the numbers for the reds I'm looking for in the quotes I've put out. If the numbers are right for the kickstarter campaign, it may be entirely possible to do a completely custom solution, either through cherry directly or modifying the switches ordered.
Long answer:
The most important mandatory thing for me about switches
is that I have to be able to open them up, take off the covers,
so that I can change/modify the stems and springs.
Since you are dealing with hand and wrist pain,
you may have looked into low-force switch activation, so
you may already know about Tim Tyler's stem & spring surgery
on Cherry MX switches, where he achieved an activation force
of 20 grams. I duplicated the 20 grams, and so can anyone.
Pcb-mounting is best if you want to do that easily.
If you cut down Korean 45g springs, you can
get an activation force of 15 grams. I've done it.
That is helpful for hand & wrist pain.
If you cut down Korean 35g springs
(I can't find them anywhere) I'd bet money that
you will be able to get an activation force of 10 grams.
That will be even better for hand and wrist pain.
When going for low activation force, the linear
Black or Red stems work best. Since Reds have
springs with lower activation force than Blacks,
I'd order Reds.
But it's not a deal breaker, because
changing stems & springs is easy with pcb-mounting.
PCB mounting is wholly unnecessary for any use case. A properly designed plate will allow the switch to be opened, even while mounted.
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.
You have to be careful with lots of options on kickstarter. I know some who have realized huge costs for any additional item as it becomes a nightmare to fulfill. I've heard fulfillment companies charge so much more after you get more than like 10 items
I don't see why not, because this clear version uses a pair of 1.5mm sheets one for a plate, the other for a spacer, it's already been designed, so inclusion or as an available option is quite trivial.
You have to be careful with lots of options on kickstarter. I know some who have realized huge costs for any additional item as it becomes a nightmare to fulfill. I've heard fulfillment companies charge so much more after you get more than like 10 items
I agree. Don't fall for the engineers curse. Don't make a lot of versions. No product is perfect. If people want this option or that option so bad, they can mod it themselves.
I'm not you're boss, but I say that you take the current design, make some prototypes, and iron out the flaws. I would LOVE to see this as product, but I don't want you to feel like you need to do a zillion(10^23) things or people will be mad. They won't. They will love you for you're work.
"If you try to please everypony, you oftentimes end up pleasing nopony, especially yourself." -Twilight Sparkle
I absolutely agree. I've already outlined what I have planned for the first revision, and Im not going to deviate from it unless it becomes an impossible task/feature.
I apologize if I came across as harsh.
Hi AcidFire,
In my mind's eye I'm visualizing possible layouts for your keyboard...
while I'm thinking about some of the ways I use any keyboard...
Specifically thinking about the keying actions required when F1-F12 are on a layer...
because there are programs/shortcuts that use of F1-F12 directly and
also in combination with modifiers,
and that also use the number row with modifiers, such as...
ctrl-F11, alt-F2, shift-F4, ctrl-1 ctrl-10, alt-2, that kind of thing.
If F1-F12 is assigned to a layer that uses the number row of keys...
then when F1-F12 needs to be used in combination with modifiers...
and when the number row characters keys with modifiers are also needed...
it seems like it is going to be more keystrokes/complicated/cumbersome,
and much less efficient than just having the F1-F12 row of keys.
Maybe I'm also remembering posts from some people
who are using layouts without F1-F12
(like the Poker, Pure, ErgoDox, and others)
who may have indicated that they miss those keys.
Is there any possibility of adding 1 additional top row of keys for F1-F12?
Thanks for considering, and for everything you've done!
xman
Hi AcidFire,
In my mind's eye I'm visualizing possible layouts for your keyboard...
while I'm thinking about some of the ways I use any keyboard...
Specifically thinking about the keying actions required when F1-F12 are on a layer...
because there are programs/shortcuts that use of F1-F12 directly and
also in combination with modifiers,
and that also use the number row with modifiers, such as...
ctrl-F11, alt-F2, shift-F4, ctrl-1 ctrl-10, alt-2, that kind of thing.
If F1-F12 is assigned to a layer that uses the number row of keys...
then when F1-F12 needs to be used in combination with modifiers...
and when the number row characters keys with modifiers are also needed...
it seems like it is going to be more keystrokes/complicated/cumbersome,
and much less efficient than just having the F1-F12 row of keys.
Maybe I'm also remembering posts from some people
who are using layouts without F1-F12
(like the Poker, Pure, ErgoDox, and others)
who may have indicated that they miss those keys.
Is there any possibility of adding 1 additional top row of keys for F1-F12?
Thanks for considering, and for everything you've done!
xman
I think that it would be more efficient to make a layer that is the same as the other/default one, and just make the top row of keys be the F1-F12 keys.
I've had similar feedback from others, and one idea that comes to mind is to do a row of keys like the kinesis boards, sitting 90 degrees with 6-7 switches, mechanical of course.
I was thinking more along the top row, like the contoured, however it's entirely possible to mount it to the side as well with how I have it mapped out in my head. I'll mark it down to try both with the next revision of the housing, it's a fairly simple change to make it modular. It's definitely something I need to decide whether I want to include it with the first revision of the hardware that'll be available for purchase.
Warning! Off topic:
It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Warning! Off topic:
It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D
Warning! Off topic:
It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D
Hotswapping switches? Do go on....
EDIT: Unless of course you mean removal of tops w/o desoldering, in which case, sweet!
Warning! Off topic:
It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D
Warning! Off topic:
It's good to see that there's another How to Train your dragon fan here!
Hell yes, how can you not love Toothless ;) On a more on topic note, I've nearly finished the next revisions of my boards which should be pretty close to what the production PCBs will be. I'm waiting to test with my prototypes first to see if there's anything I've missed, sizes & spacing, etc etc. I've also updated my design files as well for the case, and I'm proud to say that the entire thing will support the hotswapping of CherryMX switches :D
If hotswapping isn't just top removal and you've figured out snap in solderless switches then you are the next keyboard god. If not, well you're still a demigod or something.
And "how can you not love toothless" is a silly question, it is not possible. Toothless is simply too lovable.
Sorry, should have been more clear, yes, I meant that the tops will be swappable. While I have some ideas in mind for swapping the entire switch... those will come later ;) Baby steps after all.
Sorry, should have been more clear, yes, I meant that the tops will be swappable. While I have some ideas in mind for swapping the entire switch... those will come later ;) Baby steps after all.
(and by ideas, I mean I have a design for something, need to look into getting it manufactured for testing...)
I can't give it all away yet! right now it's all living in my head, I'll have to sketch it out first and pass it along to someone who can render it out properly for me. Right now the way I have it in my head, it would only work with plate mount, as you'd need something to stabilize/lock it in.
I can't give it all away yet! right now it's all living in my head, I'll have to sketch it out first and pass it along to someone who can render it out properly for me. Right now the way I have it in my head, it would only work with plate mount, as you'd need something to stabilize/lock it in.
Why not make the PCB accept pin inputs as the connection for the switch, like the controller on Filco's and such whereas it just pushes in, why not do something along the lines of that? Sure it'll make the profile of the entire board a bit larger, but it'd be sweet to just pop a switch off and throw another one on.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.
Get out of my head.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)
Those look amazing. If this can be done with dyesub pbt (well, pbt/poly blend for the frosteds) then that would be even more amazing, mostly because it wouldn't just degrade with use like the laser ones will.
I wonder what a totally blank (or just non letter patterned) frosted would look like with that setup, seeing as that's what I would want to install personally.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/backlit-sample.jpg)
Those look amazing. If this can be done with dyesub pbt (well, pbt/poly blend for the frosteds) then that would be even more amazing, mostly because it wouldn't just degrade with use like the laser ones will.
I wonder what a totally blank (or just non letter patterned) frosted would look like with that setup, seeing as that's what I would want to install personally.
Do you mean etched, or just 4 controllable RGB LEDs?
Wow what an incredible project. I'm extremely interested in buying one of these if/once you begin selling ;D
Ok, I still need to finish the survey, but for those of you looking to apply for the first round of beta, you can do so here:
ErgoGP Beta v1.0 Application (http://"http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta").
I'm currently looking for 10-20 people to participate in the beta on the first round.
bah, fixed it. I blame friday :P
http://www.multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta
I think that this is what he means.
I should go home or you? I'm confused.
BTW, great looking site.
I should go home or you? I'm confused.
BTW, great looking site.
I should, it's obviously been a long week >_<
Would it be possible to give a very rough ballpark
estimate as to the cost of a production unit?
You will not be held to it.
Also... a very rough time frame as to how soon
a production unit can maybe possibly
be in a beta tester's hands?
You will not be held to it.
Just very rough estimates.
Thanks!
I'm currently looking at:
Case+Electronics = $120.00
Case+Electronics+Switches -or- Caps = $160.00
Case+Electronics+Switches+Caps = $200.00
Completely Assembled+Tested = $250.00
Depending on what kind of funding I get, I'm also looking to offer injection molded & anodized aluminum cases.
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol
I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol
I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....
Absolutely! At the end of the day I'm looking for better comfort and support for those of us who spend way too much time on a keyboard.
On a side note, did you hit submit after you filled it in? Your application hasn't shown up.
Of course i filled out that beta signup form............lol
I am sorry i can't help with firmware/software but hopefully you would take someone that uses a keyboard 12-14 hours a day into consideration. just saying....
Absolutely! At the end of the day I'm looking for better comfort and support for those of us who spend way too much time on a keyboard.
On a side note, did you hit submit after you filled it in? Your application hasn't shown up.
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.
I also filled out the form yesterday. Hope it went through.
I'm a software engineer, so yeah. So keyboards are essentially my money maker.
i refilled out the form, hopefully you got it this time
:) I think I am the first one, had mine show up?Yup, everyone's made it through now.
Nice! You should make a Toothless keycap.
Terrible keycap design is terrible. I made this in about 30 seconds:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/9A6HHwd.png)
You sir owe me a new keyboard & LCD cleaning supplies lol
Acidfire,I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.
Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?
Thanks!
Acidfire,I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.
Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?
Thanks!
I've been lurking and watching this thread since last week, and just submitted my beta application. I was sold on the idea of making the thumb clusters more comfortable to use (I had to stop using my Kinesis Advantage because of that), but then you posted the thing with the laptop (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg957781#msg957781), and I was sold twice over.
Anyway, it's awesome to see another ergonomic keyboard project starting in Canada - now I won't have to pay an arm and a leg for shipping, lol. Regardless of whether I get a prototype model or a Kickstarter unit :)
Acidfire,I've only got one application without a username and that was a day or two ago, so you may need to try again.
Can u tell me if my application went through? I'm in a place with horrible Internet for several days and the form was acting funny?
Thanks!
Canada FTW!Where in canada are you?NVM, its on your application -derp-
Should we get a confirmation email? I just tired it from a computer and it seemed to work but no email. Thanks!
Haha, yeah - at least I know you got the application :D I'm amazed at how quickly this is moving forward. Perhaps those lean startup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_Startup) folks were right after all...
Ok, a suggestion was made to me at work that I'd like to hear opinions about. Right now, this beta test is looking to cost me a fair bit of money to get the first units produced. I'm happy to shell out the cash because I think it's vital to the development to get user experience and see what needs to be changed, if anything. However, this will stretch my own finances a bit when I should be paying bills. Some of you have already offered to preorder the kits to help support the development, something that was extremely gratifying, but I didn't feel comfortable taking anyone's money until I had made it a bit farther. I've said in the beta applications that the boards would need to be returned at some point, mainly due to the cost for me, however I would like to do at this point is offer a compromise.
What I'd like to do is put up a small indiegogo campaign to cover the cost of production for 20 beta kits. These kits will be offered with & without switches, and each kit would come with frosted keycaps for the backlighting. Basically, I'm looking at roughly $100 without switches, and $150 w/ blue, clear or black switches. This means that the prototype is yours to keep, and you'll still be able to buy a kickstarter/retail kit @ cost when they become available. I'm also looking at offering 20-30 sets of the clear frosted keys (in DSA) as well for $40 to help with funding as well. Would anyone be interested in this option?
Sorry if it's posted elsewhere in the thread but what all is there required for assembly of the kit? Diodes, resistors, switches?Case assembly & switches, everything else is surface mount or will be presoldered for you to aid in the simplicity of putting it together.
Sorry if it's posted elsewhere in the thread but what all is there required for assembly of the kit? Diodes, resistors, switches?Case assembly & switches, everything else is surface mount or will be presoldered for you to aid in the simplicity of putting it together.
For $100? Are you trying to go broke? Haha depending on when you want to start the beta I am VERY interested.
Ok, a suggestion was made to me at work that I'd like to hear opinions about. Right now, this beta test is looking to cost me a fair bit of money to get the first units produced. I'm happy to shell out the cash because I think it's vital to the development to get user experience and see what needs to be changed, if anything. However, this will stretch my own finances a bit when I should be paying bills. Some of you have already offered to preorder the kits to help support the development, something that was extremely gratifying, but I didn't feel comfortable taking anyone's money until I had made it a bit farther. I've said in the beta applications that the boards would need to be returned at some point, mainly due to the cost for me, however I would like to do at this point is offer a compromise.
What I'd like to do is put up a small indiegogo campaign to cover the cost of production for 20 beta kits. These kits will be offered with & without switches, and each kit would come with frosted keycaps for the backlighting. Basically, I'm looking at roughly $100 without switches, and $150 w/ blue, clear or black switches. This means that the prototype is yours to keep, and you'll still be able to buy a kickstarter/retail kit @ cost when they become available. I'm also looking at offering 20-30 sets of the clear frosted keys (in DSA) as well for $40 to help with funding as well. Would anyone be interested in this option?
Would anyone be interested in this option?
I would actually prefer to be able to keep the prototype by funding it directly actually - since shipping back and forth isn't particularly convenient in my case (not to mention the shipping is pretty much half the cost of one board). But it all depends on how far along the keyboard is - is it ready in your opinion? how functional would the beta kits be in comparison to the final kits in your vision of the product?
a feature list that's already been tested so far would be reassuring -
ie.
- wireless working?
- battery life/charging methods?
- reprogrammability - how will it be handled? Is there going to be a downloadable application/web interface?
Or for that matter, are there any major features that's still omitted in the current boards?
If the keyboard is at a stage where you find your original feature list satisfied, ie. a completed production model, and simply require end user testing for comments/further modifications, I'd be more than happy to pay for a beta unit and give feedback where relevant, rather than having you come out of pocket to provide the kits and pay for shipping two ways (after all, stuff costs money :D).
Would anyone be interested in this option?
I'd be up for that.
Right now unless there's a good reason to make a major board revision, the PCBs I have designed right now are what I would consider my production design. Same goes for the case.
As for the firmware, the main controllers will run a bootloader enabling easy updates over USB. I'm also looking at whether I can build the main controller to also act as an ISP for the sub boards since the ATTINY isn't wired to the USB in any form. If for some reason it doesn't work out, I'll be including a usbtinyisp w/ each kit so that testers can update to the latest firmware as it's updated.
For the updating & layout software, I've been working on an app to facilitate making updates easy and for programming layouts, as with the firmware these will be in flux, a big part of that is working it out so that it's cross platform compatible.
In other words, I believe I can nail down just about all the base functionality by the time I have everything ready for the beta kits to go out.
As an alternate approach; why don't we just give you money to reserve one of the first production units? I don't mind if I'm not on the list of beta testers, but I'd be willing to send you funds in order to reserve one once they go to production.
As an alternate approach; why don't we just give you money to reserve one of the first production units? I don't mind if I'm not on the list of beta testers, but I'd be willing to send you funds in order to reserve one once they go to production.
Thats pretty much what you'd be doing w/ the indiegogo proto units, because the protos I have designed are pretty much the production run, the only difference will be the firmware. Also, buying a beta unit puts you on the list of testers automatically. The application process for beta was meant to help me reduce the risk with the cash involved with producing prototypes, however by purchasing a prototype unit you've negated that concern, and really you wouldn't even have to provide feedback if you choose not to (though it would be very appreciated).
As for the future expansions, unless the boards require an overhaul for some reason, the prototypes will also be compatible with the bluetooth & other expansions. If it's a matter of it not fitting your case, I will make sure to include a replacement part to make sure that it does :)
Will it just be first come first serve to get the boards?
Will it just be first come first serve to get the boards?
From what I understand of indiegogo, yes, however I'll make sure that those of you on the boards are set up to get one, regardless of how indiegogo... goes.
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?
Honestly, using something like Indiegogo gives me a layer of organization that would take time away from development if I were to handle it all myself. However, if someone misses out, I will make sure you still get the opportunity to get a beta.
Wouldn't it just be easier to have everypony who is interested send you money directly?
Honestly, using something like Indiegogo gives me a layer of organization that would take time away from development if I were to handle it all myself. However, if someone misses out, I will make sure you still get the opportunity to get a beta.
Ok! That's just fine.
hmmm.Me agrees
Would anyone be interested in this option?
Would you include a bluetooth "receiver" for devices that don't come with one?You can find one cheap online. Just look up bluetooth dongle on amazon or something. Seriously, you can get a cheap (in both senses of the word) one for under five bucks, or a halfway decent one for around twenty. No need to include it with the keyboard.
Woah woah wait... The protos will come with bluetooth?I don't think it was ever explicitly stated either way, but it would make a lot of sense for testing. Bluetooth and leds are where I can forsee the most problems arising that could need hardware fixes.
Woah woah wait... The protos will come with bluetooth?I don't think it was ever explicitly stated either way, but it would make a lot of sense for testing. Bluetooth and leds are where I can forsee the most problems arising that could need hardware fixes.
Unfortunately no, the bluetooth will not be included with these protos as there is a ton of work managing those connections alone, not to mention that the radios I'm looking at using are still fairly expensive in small lot quantities. There's also stuff to worry about charging & battery management as well.
To answer the other question though, when I do make the add-on available, there will be an optional bluetooth dongle for PCs that don't otherwise have it. I'm also designing a base station that would allow both sides to be charged faster as well as include a bluetooth radio for them to connect to.I think that it might be a better solution to have just one side use bluetooth, and use something like a pair of RFM22 modules to let the two sides communicate.
Also, to elaborate a bit more on the bluetooth complications, to make the boards truely wireless (no cable joining them), each has to have a bluetooth radio. While Windows/OSX/Linux have no problem talking to multiple keyboards, mobile devices aren't as friendly. I know that iOS will only connect with one device type at a time, which means one half of the setup needs to slave to the other and still relay at a reasonable speed.
Thing is, unless I buy in massive quantities, a pair of RFM22 modules end up costing more than a single bluetooth radio, but that is an option I'm still looking at. I'm also looking at other alternatives for wireless as well, outside of bluetooth, however they wouldn't be as universal, especially with mobile devices.
Thing is, unless I buy in massive quantities, a pair of RFM22 modules end up costing more than a single bluetooth radio, but that is an option I'm still looking at. I'm also looking at other alternatives for wireless as well, outside of bluetooth, however they wouldn't be as universal, especially with mobile devices.
Honestly, lack of Bluetooth connectivity is hardly a deal-breaker for me. All of my current mechanical keyboards are wired, having a wired ErgoGP is fine. I'm more interested in the design and layout, can't wait to try it out for myself!
Just thinking; maybe use a connecting cable for the L/R boards, and a single Bluetooth module for the PC connection? I know it wouldn't appeal to folks who want to mount these boards on the armrests of their gaming chairs, but it would make for a nice clean desk-top.
Honestly, lack of Bluetooth connectivity is hardly a deal-breaker for me. All of my current mechanical keyboards are wired, having a wired ErgoGP is fine. I'm more interested in the design and layout, can't wait to try it out for myself!
Just thinking; maybe use a connecting cable for the L/R boards, and a single Bluetooth module for the PC connection? I know it wouldn't appeal to folks who want to mount these boards on the armrests of their gaming chairs, but it would make for a nice clean desk-top.
I agree about the bluetooth. As for the cable, will it just be a standard TRRS cable like on the OG edox? If so, then for mounting it on chair arms for less movement('murica!), you could just get a longer cable.
honestly the wireless option on the ErgoGP sounds very attractive. eliminating the wires except for charging or just have AA's would be cool. though since you started bringing up this as being wireless i have wondered about the LEDs. i know without LEDs you could probably get a good amount of battery life. I think the bluetooth CherryMX KBTalking Pro gets 1000 hours of battery life on 2 AA's
wires is one of the things i freaking hate about my ergodox. i have been meaning to find a retractable TRRS cable.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9354408086_0ac53a41b3_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9354408086/)
These are from the actual key, with the color tweaked a bit since the photos were slightly washed out when I took them. But those are (with maybe a slight exception to the red) color accurate to the LEDs.
Also, a bit more details from the key caps:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14273.jpg)
The one on the left was my second attempt with aligning to the center of the key. On the right was my first attempt, as well as my first (the circles) and second attempt (the patterning) at lasering the sides with a rig I designed to do it.Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14281.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14277.jpg)
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
I'm so in for a prototype - if there's still space. Happy to pay to help out.
That ain't a keyboard, that is a keystation
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
Make it all in gloss black polycarbonate, it would look at home on Darth Vader's desk.Really? I think the black and clear in OP look realllllllyyyy good. Super classy.
My comment was about the keystation, not the original version. ;D
Can I get a Mech-Warrior to go with that keyboard?
It's interesting how polarizing this has been. It's most definitely not for everyone, however it's for people like BlueByLiquid who prefer things like the Kinesis or Maltron boards, or who want the extra keys for even more shortcuts/macros/etc. Thats the great thing about how I've designed the base/stands, you can use the ErgoGP in a set up as crazy as this, or simpler like the laptop stands I showed earlier.
I'm also stealing that name mohitgarg :DCan I get a Mech-Warrior to go with that keyboard?
Clan or Inner Sphere? I've always been partial to the Timber Wolf or Mad Dog personally.
Yes, I still play Mechwarrior 4.
BTW, am I on the beta test list yet? Did I get on? If I didn't. then there's no more point in life.
Yes, I still play Mechwarrior 4.
BTW, am I on the beta test list yet? Did I get on? If I didn't. then there's no more point in life.
MW4 FTW!
As for the beta test list, everyone who's applied so far will get a unit, regardless of whether the payment comes through the indiegogo campaign, or independently.
He was already awesome.I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.
As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
AcidFire, go ahead.No worries at all, I know timing doesn't always work out for people on this sort of thing, I've missed a number of kickstarter projects that I would have loved to jump in on. I know that you sourced everything for your ergodox yourself, and if you like I can let you know when the design is available and just the completed PCBs are available.
Your project came into 6th gear right about when I ordered all the things for my ErgoDox.
So I am unable to buy one at the stage no matter how much I want to get this, maybe in some months.
He was already awesome.I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.
As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
May just have to build myself a revival of my old amiga 500 lol.AcidFire, go ahead.No worries at all, I know timing doesn't always work out for people on this sort of thing, I've missed a number of kickstarter projects that I would have loved to jump in on. I know that you sourced everything for your ergodox yourself, and if you like I can let you know when the design is available and just the completed PCBs are available.
Your project came into 6th gear right about when I ordered all the things for my ErgoDox.
So I am unable to buy one at the stage no matter how much I want to get this, maybe in some months.
He was already awesome.I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.
As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
May just have to build myself a revival of my old amiga 500 lol.
Though it would have to run some linux distro with ratpoison so that you wouldn't need to take your hands off of the keystation too often. It looks very comfortable.I was thinking it would be pretty easy to bury a RasPi in it, I may have to explore that down the road.
I really wish that I had access to a laser cutter. Then I could make a bunch of cool prototypes of stuff. I was thinking that it would be cool to get one of the Full Spectrum cutters, but I don't have the $$$ even for those. :(
Though it would have to run some linux distro with ratpoison so that you wouldn't need to take your hands off of the keystation too often. It looks very comfortable.I was thinking it would be pretty easy to bury a RasPi in it, I may have to explore that down the road.
I really wish that I had access to a laser cutter. Then I could make a bunch of cool prototypes of stuff. I was thinking that it would be cool to get one of the Full Spectrum cutters, but I don't have the $$$ even for those. :(
We have a full spectrum in the shop, they're great for production cutting, however setting up test cuts and what not on it is... a pain in the ass. They also don't engrave/etch nearly as well as the Epilogs we have.
As for the prototyping, I find I need to be careful as I can get carried away at times if I find a mistake or addition to make, it's easy to throw it in the laser or just to make a new part. Thankfully we buy acrylic in bulk so my costs per sheet are pretty low, but it still adds up pretty quick if your OCD like me.
I'm the IT/Web guy for a company called Solarbotics (https://solarbotics.com/), we make hobbyist robotic & electronic kits. We also make these kits (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef0b/).
I don't have any formal training for electronics, however I've picked up a ton of stuff working here, including PCB design, coding in C, etc etc. I also designed this:
Cool!
As for the youtube link, it was a valiant effort, but it needs to be http, not https.
I don't have any formal training for electronics, however I've picked up a ton of stuff working here, including PCB design, coding in C, etc etc. I also designed this:
After a conversation with CommunistWitchDr on IRC, I ended up getting a little carried away:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14284.jpg)
the two top boards are just thumb clusters, so little to no development would be needed to add them to the mix :D And the pad at the bottom is a proper 10 key pad, however it's wide enough to fit a smartphone quite easily.
I don't have formal training in anything, but I've learned a LOT from helpful people on the web.Not currently. It uses a photogate to count parts, but if they end up bent to where it can't count properly it messes up the counts. I'm looking at either using a stepper which can reliably move the spool forward for the 5.5mm distance between components, or a photogate with a narrow enough beam that I could use the legs of the components at the edges of the reel to count accurately. I'll probably end up working on it some time in september when a ton of our web work is done.
Do you use Mr. Bitey in production? He looks very useful.
I need this design for my Ergodox! Any chance it would fit? If so can you send me the code for laser printing? I have access to a laser cutter.Unfortunately I don't think it will. While they share the same basic shape, the size of the units and and & position of the thumb are different.
He was already awesome.I've just checked, a mini-itx board would actually fit quite nicely in the area between the main halves. A power supply would be another question entirely, as that would depend on what type of set up you were going for.
As for the 'keystation', I wonder how hard it would be to stuff a Mini-ITX motherboard and PSU under that thing... Me likes.
The tenting angle on your keystation looks nice to me. The apparent lack of rotation about the Z axis looks like something to be fixed. Is the yaw adjustable? Why have you chosen no rotation?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Z axis.hmm... how to better express myself... One of the great things about the split hands is that you can orient them such that your wrists can be in a neutral position even when your hands are close together. It appears that this flexibility might be lost in the keystation setup, and to me that would be a shame, and a loss of ergo. Spinning on the desk surface === rotate on Z axis === yaw. I would like to see this degree of freedom maintained...
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Z axis.hmm... how to better express myself... One of the great things about the split hands is that you can orient them such that your wrists can be in a neutral position even when your hands are close together. It appears that this flexibility might be lost in the keystation setup, and to me that would be a shame, and a loss of ergo. Spinning on the desk surface === rotate on Z axis === yaw. I would like to see this degree of freedom maintained...
It was mostly experimental, and while yes I wasn't originally intending to offer it, I think I may just put a bit more time and offer it as a higher up reward for the kickstarter.
As for the angles, I have an idea swimming in my head on how to do user adjustable Z. And the tilt will be adjustable through removable peices. If I get enough cash for injection molding I should be able to do something a little bit more flexible.
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.
On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.
I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?
Seeed has a reputation for good quality. I say good choice.
For LEDs, I don't understand how you could include them in the proto kits at that price. If that does come through, I would love green. :D
Seeed has a reputation for good quality. I say good choice.
For LEDs, I don't understand how you could include them in the proto kits at that price. If that does come through, I would love green. :D
Buying in bulk makes it cheaper for sure. Only issue w/ 3mm leds is that it limits your choices a bit for brightness/color/manfacturer/price, but I have Green, Blue, Red & Yellow on my list and I'm looking for white as well.
Purple or slow fade rainbow is the best led colorI like purple too.
It would look insanely awesome if the home row had different leds than the rest of the board.
It would look insanely awesome if the home row had different leds than the rest of the board.
I disagree unless you use the RGB ones and do it programmatically. people are picky about lighting and you wouldn't get something everyone would be happy with
It was just a random thought.
Your opinion, however, remains valid.
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)
You're like bunny in that way.
Except bunny would give away a bunch of units, and require everyone who enters to post a picture of themselves playing piano with a piece of paper stuck to their face that says "bunnylake this is my favorite keyboard" :D
Nothing wrong with putting yourself in the position to cater to everyone without having to compromise :)
You're like bunny in that way.
Except bunny would give away a bunch of units, and require everyone who enters to post a picture of themselves playing piano with a piece of paper stuck to their face that says "bunnylake this is my favorite keyboard" :D
No kidding I can actually play a piano
nice
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.
On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.
I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?
Definitely, would like to see what's managable, tho building the PC would either make it bigger to accomodate the ability to pivot the inputs, or a fixed angle to keep it all the same size.
On a different note, will I have complete faith that the boards from Seeed studio will be quality, however, will never pick the EMS option again when I want them at a reasonable time >_< here's hoping they'll atleast hit canada over the weekend. In the meantime I've gotten most of the firmware prepped, very eager to test it.
I've also been looking at LEDs, and was wondering what colors people would be interested in for their proto kits?
At the prices you've been offering your prototype units at, I'd say any color of LEDs you decide/have would be fine. If it came down to preference, I guess UV/aquamarine blue would be sweet (mostly due to the rarity), though I definitely am not expecting you to be providing them for the protos.
For that matter, I wouldn't mind taking it led-less, then source and solder my own later. (In fact, I'll prefer it, as there are some mods to be done to the switches before adding leds, so as to maintain the ez-open switch capability after leds are added in).
edit: p.s. the timber wolf is definitely one of my favorites. However, I didn't get that much into the politics of the game, so no real preference between the two factions.
The plan is to do it about a week or so after I get the first set of boards I'm waiting on. I'm hoping to get up and running as close to the beginning of the month as I can, and I'll be posting my proposed perks later today.
1) Goes to geekhack
2) Clicks on the updated posts
3) Looks to see if this one has anything new
1) Goes to geekhack
2) Clicks on the updated posts
3) Looks to see if this one has anything new
/me Just subscribes to this with tapatalk and never even needs to check
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting? :confused:
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting? :confused:
To make it look cool!
So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting? :confused:
To make it look cool!
Which is the only reason for backlighting on a board like this anyway, an ergo board has no purpose if you don't touchtype.
This think looks absolutely stunning. I am about to return my Kinesis because the thumb pads on it are way up in the sky relative to the fingers (ow.jpg). Recessing the thumb cluster is quite smart.
What is the measurement from the index homerow key to the center of the nearest possible 2x1 thumb key?
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.
To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.
2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.
3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.
To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.
2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.
3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.
I don't like the idea of the layouts being software based and not pushed to the keyboard's firmware like the ergodox.
I use multiple computers at the same desk. My work computer i cannot install any not-approved software and drivers due to the nature of my work, basically if it doesn't work plug and play i cant use it and the computer my keyboard gets action with the most is my work computer.
I have the thread on my notify list, so I get an email every time someone replies to the thread :D I love talking about this project.
To answer your questions:
1) So the keycaps would be blank, so what's the point of back-lighting?
Communist nailed it partially, but the blanks I'm ordering are clear so that I can potentially vinyl paint them and then laser etch markings into them. While this will be time consuming for me, I think it'll help to determine how well this will hold up over time to see what will wear away.
2) Will the EgroGP have similar customization for layouts as the OG ErgoDox?
What I have in mind will be better I think. Instead of having to reupload a new firmware to the device w/ your new layout, the software will be able to push the layout to your board without affecting the core firmware. The software will also have the ability to both share & download new layouts from a community site with ease. Creating layouts will also be a bit more simple/intuitive.
3) will the key caps be staggered? Seems it would be a bit more ergonomical that way. Apologies if this question was already asked/answered.
If your talking about staggering like a standard Qwerty board, no. If your talking about staggering the columns to better match the difference in fingers, yes. I've also staggered them a bit more than previous solutions, the index finger is a 6mm offset from the middle finger, while the pinkie keys are an 8mm offset from the middle finger.
I don't like the idea of the layouts being software based and not pushed to the keyboard's firmware like the ergodox.
I use multiple computers at the same desk. My work computer i cannot install any not-approved software and drivers due to the nature of my work, basically if it doesn't work plug and play i cant use it and the computer my keyboard gets action with the most is my work computer.
The software on the computer pushes the layout to a fancy part of the board where the layout is stored without having to flash firmware. The firmware just reads the layout you push. It's still totally portable.
Would it be possible to split the base plate between the two controllers and then couple them in a way that could be adjusted? I'm thinking of those with broad or narrow shoulders?I hadn't given any thought to it, but after you brought it up an idea is forming for the next revision, so we'll see how this goes in the next round.
I'm impressed.A lot of this stuff comes to me as I work out the basic design, and I get a bit OCD with getting measurements just right.
The attention to detail is just fascinating.
Don't you sleep?
My apologies for the confusion (and thanks to Communist for explaining it), allow me to elaborate for those of you who are a bit more technical. The plan is to store the layouts in external EEPROM instead of as part of the firmware, making it simpler and safer (botching an EEPROM write isn't nearly as bad as a firmware issue) for the less technical crowd to update their boards. This will also be expandable as well.
As I was at work today and running something else through the laser, I decided to follow through on the pivoting idea:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14289.jpg)
20 Degree Z rotationShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14290.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14292.jpg)
The current design allows up to a 45 degree rotationShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14294.jpg)
This design has a support that slides out with the main plate to help support the controllers
I've got a number of notes as to what I'm going to do differently with the next one, but so far I'm happy with how much more flexible this makes the current set up.
looking more and more badass with each update. Honestly can't wait for beta to start.That's the plan. I doubt it will be a part of the Kickstarter campaign, however I do plan to make it available after the kickstarter units have been shipped and I open up web sales.
are you planning to offer the numpad for sale in the future too? Would be nice to finally have a numpad that matches the acrylic aesthetic of both the ErgoGP and the Ergodox.
Wow... that's amazing!Thank you :) Whats eep?
I'm curoius, how much eep are you using?
Love the new design. Great work! I would second the ability to make the device wider as I have extremely broad solders.Will keep that in mind. As I said, I have an idea on how to do it, so it'll come down to how it works out in practice.
This is an amazing keyboard. Would be even greater if you could add a trackball to the equation, somewhere in the middle most likely?I've been giving this some thought as well, with a trackpad being another option as well. A big part of the question is whether to use something existing and mod it to fit, or to design a completely new add on for it. Time will tell what the best option will be.
Wow... that's amazing!Thank you :) Whats eep?
I'm curoius, how much eep are you using?
Ah gotcha, never heard it referred to as such before. I'm embedding a 1mbit module, so 128kb. The addon module would add another 384k (3x 1mbit), making for a total of 512kb, should be more than ample space to store just about anything the layouts + macros will ever need.
FYI: there is an Ergodox set in this groupbuy:I was originally going to grab a set or two, but with the new sets SP is making available for DSA base & modifier, I'm able to order exactly what I need and cheaper than the Dolch kit.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0
FYI: there is an Ergodox set in this groupbuy:I was originally going to grab a set or two, but with the new sets SP is making available for DSA base & modifier, I'm able to order exactly what I need and cheaper than the Dolch kit.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0
In other news, look what just walked through the front door :DShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_1962.jpg)
I will be cutting up the first couple after work today and I'll start populating them later tonight :D
It's just the DSA PBT blank kits they're currently offering. (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/marketplace.php)
In other news, look what just walked through the front door :DShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_1962.jpg)
I will be cutting up the first couple after work today and I'll start populating them later tonight :D
5 I believe
While it should be enough to do 5 sets w/ some extras, in practice the yields are much lower because I unfortunately packed the boards a bit too tight on the panelization. Getting a good cut on one board is leaving another somewhat ruined. I should however end up with atleast enough to build two with a few spares.
I want in on this.
I NEED in on this.
I'm currently cutting them w/ a bandsaw. I got the soldering done last night for the first test units, I'll be wiring them up to a controller later and taking them for a spin to see how the multiplexing works out. If the board works out to be solid the next step is to order a small batch of the boards you guys would be getting for further testing & verification (w/ MUCH faster shipping.) Because everything will be in place and just waiting on the boards, it should only take me a day or two to verify everything works before offering up the beta batch.
Now, on the ordering process, I have the ability to put up a private site instead of indiegogo to allow you guys to purchase beta kits without fear of someone taking your spot (verifying by beta sign up), would this be preferable to you? Everything is still done through paypal (ew I know) but locked down to those of you who are actually interested in helping out. This would also allow me to gather data faster as to what type of configuration you guys would be interested in, LED color, thumb layout, etc etc. without a lot of back and forth. What do you guys think?
Now, on the ordering process, I have the ability to put up a private site instead of indiegogo to allow you guys to purchase beta kits without fear of someone taking your spot (verifying by beta sign up), would this be preferable to you? Everything is still done through paypal (ew I know) but locked down to those of you who are actually interested in helping out. This would also allow me to gather data faster as to what type of configuration you guys would be interested in, LED color, thumb layout, etc etc. without a lot of back and forth. What do you guys think?
For all the work you've put in, I'm more than happy to go with whatever would be easiest for you.
As an insteresting note. It seems Razer has starting using small mechnical switches for the large number of buttons on their new version of the Naga Mouse. I wonder if these would make for a great way to add small Function keys without increasing the size much.
http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga
I'm not sure what Razer means by "mechanical switches".
I'm not sure what Razer means by "mechanical switches".
I'm, not convinced that they know either...
Hrmm...
How to do paypal...
I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.
I'll try to do something then.
Hrmm...
How to do paypal...
I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.
I'll try to do something then.
wait are we already supposed to send money?
Hrmm...
How to do paypal...
I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.
I'll try to do something then.
wait are we already supposed to send money?
No, not yet I think.
Hrmm...
How to do paypal...
I will be gone from tomorrow until next week.
I'll try to do something then.
wait are we already supposed to send money?
No, not yet I think.
I got confused by your statement about doing it tomorrow.
one thing if you ever get around to it is update the original post of the topic with the current status of the project and it is looking with the design. Some people may not get where this project is at unless they go through every page
on the other hand, it has become a nice little elite ErgoGP fan club going on in here, I haven't seen TP4Tissue show up yet in here :O
I am very interested in your ErgoGP. The work you have done on it is magnificent
I am very interested in your ErgoGP. The work you have done on it is magnificent
Thank you :)
While it isn't much in the way of further progress, I've created a twitter account for those interested in following: @multiplxd. I'm also setting up accounts on YouTube, google+, etc etc. to better share what I'm working outside of the forum.
I am very interested in your ErgoGP. The work you have done on it is magnificent
Thank you :)
While it isn't much in the way of further progress, I've created a twitter account for those interested in following: @multiplxd. I'm also setting up accounts on YouTube, google+, etc etc. to better share what I'm working outside of the forum.
Is that the right Twitter handle? I couldn't find it via a quick search. I'm on Twitter as well, @Greystoke.
Yea, I did mean blank sets. Sounds pretty good so far. Can the software do LED layer indicators?
Either way I'm most likely in when the final board rolls around.
Again, Awesome work acid!
I'm really interested to see how you are going to manage this amount of leds (the required power and general wiring circuitry).
what addons are you planning to made available for the beta kits?
The wiring is fairly simple, being a straight forward matrix layout. For those of you unfamiliar with how this works, it's pretty much exactly like the switch array on a keyboard, providing power one row and a time and cycling through the columns to give the power a route through the LED. This is strobed very quickly, faster than your eye can pick up, and ends up using very little power.I saw one arduino mega in one of your pictures and I think I saw it in the video too - are you planning to use it into the final version? I don't know any avr usb capable IC with this number of available ports ...
Just thought I'd share a quick update. I've been making some minor tweaks to the PCBs and sorted out a couple of issues and made some improvements:
1) beefed up the power traces. All the traces on the board the first time round were 10mil, I've sinced uped the 5v & gnd rails to 15mil, including bulking up the vias.
2) added a crystal to both sides of the main & thumb boards. I still have a ways to go w/ pwm control, and the crystals give me the option to bump up to 16mhz if I need to.
3) caught a routing problem on the main board, right side. Missed some I/O >_<
4) added an additional pair of address jumpers. You can now add up to 16 (8 per side) thumb pads.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
6) sorted out connectors between main & thumb boards. There are options for permanent & modular connections.
7) shifted over & optimized main boards ISP header. This allows for a pass through connector to be used on the RGB add on, simplifying the connection without using something difficult like ZIF cables.
8) added inline spi header to CPU module for future bluetooth addon.
9) added indicator LEDs to CPU board for power & USB tx/rx (mostly troubleshooting). Can be disabled via a jumper.
10) designed external number pad.
11) designed external 4x5 button array.
12) updated case designs to accommodate pcb changes. Also moved and added case screws for better stability. I have button head & counter sunk screws on order for testing.
13) outlined the addressing table for all boards.
13) outlined the i2c commands for switch polling & LEDs on the sub boards.
I may have missed something, but will this be open source like ergodox?
I saw one arduino mega in one of your pictures and I think I saw it in the video too - are you planning to use it into the final version? I don't know any avr usb capable IC with this number of available ports ...The mega was used for the simplicity of testing. The final control has a ATMEGA32u4 (used in the Teensy & Leonardo) as the main controller & interface to the PC side. Each keypad sub board has an ATTINY828 controlling the switches & LEDs (they have 28 usable I/O ports.) They're all connected over the i2c bus.
I'll clarify this too since I've been give some advice since I first started this project. At the end of everything, when the first production batch is ready, everything will be released, hardware and software. Up until that point, things like the case, PCBs, BOM, and anything else will production related will be held back. There would be nothing more frustrating than to go through all this work designing & testing and to have someone take advantage of that work while I'm raising funds.I may have missed something, but will this be open source like ergodox?
Once everything is finalised, yes, OP has mentioned he is a supporter of open source and open hardware and would like the same for the ErgoGP.
I like the sound ofUnfortunately no, what it means is that you can use the thumb pad boards as extra keypads. I will be adding the ability to use custom buttons however, since it ties in with the ability to add a foot pedal.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
Does this mean I can add a standard switch and map it to a key? If so, I'll be tempted to get my smiley face button out again.
That project is amazing :eek:Me too!
I don't know how I missed it,
I can't wait to see the final version
Just thought I'd share a quick update. I've been making some minor tweaks to the PCBs and sorted out a couple of issues and made some improvements:
1) beefed up the power traces. All the traces on the board the first time round were 10mil, I've sinced uped the 5v & gnd rails to 15mil, including bulking up the vias.
2) added a crystal to both sides of the main & thumb boards. I still have a ways to go w/ pwm control, and the crystals give me the option to bump up to 16mhz if I need to.
3) caught a routing problem on the main board, right side. Missed some I/O >_<
4) added an additional pair of address jumpers. You can now add up to 16 (8 per side) thumb pads.
5) added a 3.5mm connection point to thumb pads for external use.
6) sorted out connectors between main & thumb boards. There are options for permanent & modular connections.
7) shifted over & optimized main boards ISP header. This allows for a pass through connector to be used on the RGB add on, simplifying the connection without using something difficult like ZIF cables.
8) added inline spi header to CPU module for future bluetooth addon.
9) added indicator LEDs to CPU board for power & USB tx/rx (mostly troubleshooting). Can be disabled via a jumper.
10) designed external number pad.
11) designed external 4x5 button array.
12) updated case designs to accommodate pcb changes. Also moved and added case screws for better stability. I have button head & counter sunk screws on order for testing.
13) outlined the addressing table for all boards.
13) outlined the i2c commands for switch polling & LEDs on the sub boards.
Can we pay by mailing you a Cashier's Check? :thumb:
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
Cannot possibly explain the level of want
Of course! That's pretty much a requirement for a kickstarter campaign. On that front, I got an email and it officially opens to Canada on the 9th of september.I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)
I don't know if AcidFire will, but when I get a beta unit I sure will!
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
Cannot possibly explain the level of want
Me too, I can't wait to get my next round of boards ordered :DOf course! That's pretty much a requirement for a kickstarter campaign. On that front, I got an email and it officially opens to Canada on the 9th of september.I hope you make video typing with this keyboard ;)
I don't know if AcidFire will, but when I get a beta unit I sure will!
On the development side, I've designed the LED array test board, and I've also designed a set of Cherry MX break out boards for testing for the foot switch. Why a Cherry MX switch you ask? Because I came across this on kickstarter: STINKY the Gaming Footboard (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/289858283/stinky-the-gaming-footboard-step-up-your-game?ref=live). I found it particularly interesting that they went w/ the Cherry MX switches instead of why you might expect, like an Omron leaf switch, so I'd like to explore the idea. I think what they've done is fantastic, but the price ($119) for a foot switch is just a bit much for me. Also, this would be running a separate piece of software, and I'd much prefer to keep it all integrated.
You would think, but the interesting thing about the Stinky is the the top half is supported over the bottom via 4 springs, so instead of the switch carrying your weight, the springs do. This lets you float your feet over them and then activate with very little movement, while most traditional footswitches require you to rest your foot to the side when not in use.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
Cannot possibly explain the level of want
would love to see a video along with mouse interaction, the setup looks pretty big so it seems the arm might be skewed a bit too much to properly work with a mouse. A trackball in the middle would solve that though ;-)
This is cool. Seems like an improvement from the ErgoDox. I thought the Dox thumb keys are kinda far away. Does your version put them any closer?
Glad you guys are as excited as I am :D+1 -- this thread continues to deliver.Cannot possibly explain the level of wantShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
I want that symmetric numpad. I would give sexual favors for that thing and the acrylic risersI uh.. prefer cash lol. Also, like the thumb pads, the numeric add-ons now allow for up to 8 of them to be added to the system.
The current base for the full set up is 514mm. This is a bit wider than a full board, and almost on par with the Logitech G series boards with the extra macro keys. That being said, after the initial launch I'll be looking into trackball/trackpad/trackpoint options for both center mount & the thumbs.would love to see a video along with mouse interaction, the setup looks pretty big so it seems the arm might be skewed a bit too much to properly work with a mouse. A trackball in the middle would solve that though ;-)With the right setup your mouse usage (when not gaming) can approach zero.
Center trackball is pretty nice though from my experience.
I can't stand how much more sexy this looks compared to my ErgoDox. Can't stop looking at it either. I'm killing myself!!!When I have some time, I'm looking at making the same colors available for the ErgoDox. the biggest issue right now is fitment, as the thicknesses of acrylic I have on hand are different from what the stock case uses.
This is cool. Seems like an improvement from the ErgoDox. I thought the Dox thumb keys are kinda far away. Does your version put them any closer?The current case design (from what Acidfire has shared) puts it at the same distance as ErgoDox but with a lower depth/step than the main hand pcb because the ErgoGP has the thumb cluster on a separate board, it can by-design be moved around with an adjustment of the case design or something in the case design that allows it to be movable/adjustable
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14295.jpg)
Cannot possibly explain the level of want
+1 -- this thread continues to deliver.
i like where this is going, i just dislike clear acrylic.... flat color or even better matte-texture acrylic i hope would be possible, however talking about the materials this early probably isn't a good idea--probably getting ahead of things.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
I thought so.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
I thought so.
Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
I thought so.
Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
I thought so.
Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The plate is to align the switches properly and prevent flex. Acrylic thinner than 3/32 will flex, above that acrylic is as good as metal. Since the design of the ErgoDox is available at ergodox.org, you can get a metal plate cut and it allows you to remove switch top without desoldering the switches. At the completion of the ErgoGP, files for the plate will be made available and again can be got cut.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
The ErgoDox is plate mount and so is this. It's just an acrylic plate instead of metal.
I thought so.
Yea, but I am petty sure that I read somewhere that since it's acrylic, it does not offer much support and needs pcb mount switches. But I may bee totally wrong here! But since it's acrylic plate mounted, I suppose it would be possible to replace this acrylic sheet and replace it with a metal plate with the same shape and thickness (and this option to open the switches without desoldering for sure)!
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
The plate is to align the switches properly and prevent flex. Acrylic thinner than 3/32 will flex, above that acrylic is as good as metal. Since the design of the ErgoDox is available at ergodox.org, you can get a metal plate cut and it allows you to remove switch top without desoldering the switches. At the completion of the ErgoGP, files for the plate will be made available and again can be got cut.
Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?
- Progress today (so far) -
Started a new version of the main keypad, the left side. This version is not double sided, but features a number of improvements:
1) Relocated USB jack to left side of the board
2) Relocated bridge cable jack to left side of the board
3) Unified header to CPU board, making for a simplier interface
4) Moved row & column breakout headers to bottom of board
5) The LED & switch matrixes now share a common ground. I'll be testing this concept with current boards to ensure it will work consistently.
6) Added pull up resistors to input lines to simply coding & reduce chance of errors when switching from input to output on the ground lines.
7) Added 3 RGB LEDs w/ 12-bit PWM to the top right corner of the board.
Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.
My vote is for a Teensy 3.0. Micro USB FTWEw. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.
pretty sure teensy is not used with the ergogp
Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.
Is there any option to make this design plate mounted?
I think it already is.
Nice if it is, but the ergodox is not and I did't see any metal piece in the pictures.
I know there has been answers to this but i wanted to say the ErgoDox PCB design allows plate and PCB mounted switches. Case designs can offer the plate or go without it.
The ErgoDox is plate mounted on the Litster case provided by MassDrop and I want to reiterate what everyone else is saying, It does not flex at all. The down side of the acrylic plate is that the acrylic has to be THICK, in fact it's so thick on the litster case you can't use through-hole diodes.Well, if the acrylic plate is strong enough, I think it would be even nicer to add the feature to be able to open the switches to it, if this kind of precision if possible with acrylic! Anyone know if it would be possible?
The Litster case for ErgoDox does have this feature so it is very possible- Progress today (so far) -
Started a new version of the main keypad, the left side. This version is not double sided, but features a number of improvements:
1) Relocated USB jack to left side of the board
2) Relocated bridge cable jack to left side of the board
3) Unified header to CPU board, making for a simplier interface
4) Moved row & column breakout headers to bottom of board
5) The LED & switch matrixes now share a common ground. I'll be testing this concept with current boards to ensure it will work consistently.
6) Added pull up resistors to input lines to simply coding & reduce chance of errors when switching from input to output on the ground lines.
7) Added 3 RGB LEDs w/ 12-bit PWM to the top right corner of the board.
Currently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.
:thumb:
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.
Because I dun wanna SM solder the controller to the board. The diodes are enought thank you very much :)
I suggested the teensy because it's a popular board that a many people are familiar and comfortable with already. and the 3.0 because it's much more powerful with lots of space and a micro usb connector, which is much more durable than the mini usb.
pretty sure teensy is not used with the ergogpCurrently considering moving from the ATTINY828 to something a bit more standard, which should reduce the development time substantially as it would no longer require a firmware for the keypads. This would allow for a total of 8 boards, whether they are main, thumb, number or other (like foot switches). This would also allow for 12-bit PWM control of the back lighting as well.
That's why I suggested it :)
2) HID device (not Arduino compatible) - This bootloader would allow for the keyboard to work at start up, support nkro (hopefully), and would be for users who either have no interest in hacking their firmware, or are advanced enough to go with the straight C.
These would be the same CPU board based on the ATMEGA32u4, just like the Teensy 2.0.
Ew. Why use a broke out controller board when you can have the main controller chip itself smd soldered directly to the pcb? So much nicer.
Because I dun wanna SM solder the controller to the board. The diodes are enought thank you very much :)
I suggested the teensy because it's a popular board that a many people are familiar and comfortable with already. and the 3.0 because it's much more powerful with lots of space and a micro usb connector, which is much more durable than the mini usb.
Oh I can solder SMD easily enough. It's just tedious and time consuming.
I just use a small tip on my iron.
You saw Sparkfun's new product post didn't you :P
I've looked at various options for wireless, and I think for the time being I'll be sticking with the bluetooth, as it is the most complete option to appeal to the largest variety of devices. I do like the idea of something like the ATmega128, but getting into antenna design is such a precise science that for now, it really isn't worth it for me.
Got the chance to do a new cut with the counter sunk screws that I picked up. I have to say, I definitely think it's an improvement over the socket head screws.Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14300.jpg)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14318.jpg)
I just use a small tip on my iron.
lolwat
So...
You set the part on the the pads, and solder the leads one by one?
Props to you for that kind of patience.
That looks pretty cool.
Where are you getting your caps from?
my guess is http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php + Massdrop setActually, with the exception of some blanks I bought from the classifieds, everything has come from SP so far.
I use solder paste, put it down on both of the connection points (I do this for like 20 of them because it is faster) then use electric tweezers to put the diodes down. Then just touch the solder iron to the diode pins. It will almost instantly bead up and make a solid connection. I have a pretty wide soldering iron and it works find.Another way to do this is to use an electric skillet, there's lots of guides online as to how to do it.
My heat gun put out too much air for these diodes so I had to come up with this solution. It is ridiculously fast. On the ergodox it took almost no time once I figured this out.
Quite simply beautiful.I've been signed up since they made the announcement in June. I got an email a couple days ago that the ability to create a project was available, and I've already built the majority of it. Now I just need to get some more photo + video to fill out the story about it and it'll be good to go.
Definitely interested in this as a product.
on a side note Kickstarter for canada http://www.kickstarter.com/canada
Creators in Canada can start building projects now!
(You'll be able to launch your project starting September 9th.)
Another way to do this is to use an electric skillet, there's lots of guides online as to how to do it.
Quite simply beautiful.
Definitely interested in this as a product.
on a side note Kickstarter for canada http://www.kickstarter.com/canada
Creators in Canada can start building projects now!
(You'll be able to launch your project starting September 9th.)
I've been signed up since they made the announcement in June. I got an email a couple days ago that the ability to create a project was available, and I've already built the majority of it. Now I just need to get some more photo + video to fill out the story about it and it'll be good to go.
AcidFire, just wondering what you meant by:
"That being said, after the initial launch I'll be looking into trackball/trackpad/trackpoint options for both center mount & the thumbs."
Do you mean after the beta launch, or do you mean this will be an entirely different product? And will people who get v1 be able to upgrade to v2 (with trackball)?
From what I understand the design is very modular, there is no v1 or v2 at this stage. Once Beta is done and the final design completed, he will work on new "modules" which can be attached later on in previous beta version as well unless there is a drastic change (Which is unlikely).mohitgarg nailed it. The design is very modular, for exactly this reason. I hate having to rebuy something completely just to get a new feature, or a part that I need. I blame growing up with Lego for this addiction to getting exactly what I want lol.
Thats great news, I'll be waiting with anticipation, thank you for the fast update.No problem, and trust me, it's killing me to be patient as posible to get everything right, instead of rushing to get it up.
Looks great!!!Thanks :D
Good job!!!!!!
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.
Just wish media keys worked in windows....
Hey I got 2 questions here:
1. The ergodox and the ergogp seems to both have more keys than really necessary. The question is aimed to all of you using either of these, do you think that many keys are unnecessary or do most of you think they are either usefull or not in the way anyway?
2. I know it would be a challenge somewhat, but anyone thought about integration a small trackball (like less than an inch wide) near or part of the thumb cluster? Adding a trackball directly accessible to the thumb looks awesome in my mind! With it, it would remove all need to move the hands at all!
I don't have an ergodox and I am still not 100% sure to make the move yet, but I am more and more appealed to such a thing so I wanted some input from those using it on a regular basis about these 2 things!
Thx for your comment :D
Hey I got 2 questions here:
1. The ergodox and the ergogp seems to both have more keys than really necessary. The question is aimed to all of you using either of these, do you think that many keys are unnecessary or do most of you think they are either usefull or not in the way anyway?
2. I know it would be a challenge somewhat, but anyone thought about integration a small trackball (like less than an inch wide) near or part of the thumb cluster? Adding a trackball directly accessible to the thumb looks awesome in my mind! With it, it would remove all need to move the hands at all!
I don't have an ergodox and I am still not 100% sure to make the move yet, but I am more and more appealed to such a thing so I wanted some input from those using it on a regular basis about these 2 things!
Thx for your comment :D
1. Unfortunately, I can only speak to what I have planned, as opposed to experience with it. As a programmer, I see so much extra functionality with the extra keys, especially with the ability to expand when I need more for macros, special functions, etc etc.
2. As I've mentioned a few times already, I agree with this 100% and it'll be one of the first expansions I implement once the core project is ready.
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)
The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.
If you are referring to the red outlined position, I think most people would have difficulty reaching the bottom keys.....
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.
Just wish media keys worked in windows....
They don't? My Filco has media keys and they work, there must be a way to send the right signal/command since the keyboard is programmable.
I have quite a few unused keys on my ErgoDox, but they're not in the way and I'd rather have them than not.
Just wish media keys worked in windows....
They don't? My Filco has media keys and they work, there must be a way to send the right signal/command since the keyboard is programmable.
Currently, no. Not sure why, haven't delved into the source far enough.
I don't get it.
You send 0x80 for volume up, 0x81 for volume down, ect,.
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)
The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.
Just my 2 cents is people really need to look at the inset with this design and feel if they like it. It is much different than a flat design and we should probably make a paper mockup so people can see which they like. Which ever option is right I think it will surprise you how different it feels when it is angled and when the keys are inset like the ergoGP does.
Also, I forgot to ask, for those of you interested in hacking the hardware side, should I keep the pin headers that break out the LED & switch matrices?
No no no, I'm not removing the backlighting, just the breakout headers that would allow you to use external electronics to read the switches & control the LEDs.
No no no, I'm not removing the backlighting, just the breakout headers that would allow you to use external electronics to read the switches & control the LEDs.
Ahhh. I figured I was missing something because I didn't think you would remove that. I didn't know you were planning on doing that. It actually might get the Arduino community on board(Which is pretty darn big these days for your KS if you could show that you could easily control the LEDs using an Ardunio. It if isn't lots of work I think it would really open up a bigger market I think. I think the Ardunio community would probably come up with some insaine ideas for what todo with it.Part of the reason I had broken them out was to work around the attiny828 I was planning to use, but now with the change to a set of standard controllers, PCA9555 for the keys, PCA9685 for the LEDs, the board can be easily accessed by an any arduino with the I2C available.
In fact my fully addressable LED kinses contoured board was made entirely with an ardunio (colordunio).
What are the disadvantages of keeping them?Space & routing. They were convenient to use instead of just using vias, and there was space for them. Because of the density at the top of the board, and the fact that it's no longer a double sided design, it's harder to justify/work them in now.
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:Gosh ...Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)
I need.
My god Acidfire, I want to take you out for dinner and beers. I would kill for that. Lemme get in on the beta test PRRREEEEAAAASSSEEEE
I actually love your 70% board! I was actually thinking about working on one like this to take when I need to travel. Great work!
Need. 70%.
Need. ErgoGP.
NO.Money.:(
Oh my good, I'm drooling at the pics.
Gosh ...Glad you guys like it :D I have to admit, I was a bit skeptical about the layout, but it actually feels very familiar when I put my hands on it, as opposed to the Full set up. I think it could make a great in between board, allowing you to adjust to the matrix layout without having to relearn your posture at the same time. Then, when you're up to speed, you can make the move to the split boards with much less frustration (I would hope.) I'll be pricing it out after I've finished the mid board PCB, but I expect it to come in 20-40 less than the split kit.
I want this one!
Congrats man, awesome work!
The RGB LED panels/90% acrilic looks awesome! Can't wait to do some fun stuff with those LEDs.Me too! I'm also looking forward to seeing what other people can pull off with them. Being a 12-bit PWM, it should make for some very smooth color transitions as well.
I like those keycaps. I hope they diffuse better than the clear ones I tested with. I'm wondering if SP can make it so less light passes through or something else to help diffuse the light more.
Also (forgive me if it's been brought up before), but have you seen hasu's TMK firmware (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41989.msg841759#msg841759)? It's really, really easy to read and modify, and could possibly be a great base for your Ergo* firmwares :)Yup, hasu & ben's firmwares have both been sent my way. While I may end up borrowing some parts (with appropriate attribution of course), particularly the USB management, the way my board functions is a bit different than either set up, and will end up being a custom firmware.
Genius. This is seriously turning out to be the One Ring of DIY keyboards.I may have to do a custom top with some Elvish scripting on it ;)
How about an XMOS MCU? That would allow for truly perfect modular-ness.TBH I've never seen an XMOS before, I'd have to look into it. I'm angling towards something ARM based right now because like the Arduino, ARM based projects are popping up more and more, and I want for me and users of my stuff to be able to tap into that community for support.
Genius. This is seriously turning out to be the One Ring of DIY keyboards.I may have to do a custom top with some Elvish scripting on it ;)How about an XMOS MCU? That would allow for truly perfect modular-ness.TBH I've never seen an XMOS before, I'd have to look into it. I'm angling towards something ARM based right now because like the Arduino, ARM based projects are popping up more and more, and I want for me and users of my stuff to be able to tap into that community for support.
So this is the design change I'm looking at for the thumb, thoughts?Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/thumbpad-change.png)
The red is the change to a 45 degree angle, and bringing it closer into the body.
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)
[...]
So, I thought I throw together a little something based on daerid's suggestion of a 70% style board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14319.jpg)
[...]
not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but
i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.
Does it make it worse when I tell you that all of the features I have planned for the split board, including bluetooth (though possibly w/ reduced battery life) will all work on the travel size as well? :Dnot to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but
i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.
That's kind of mild.
I almost convinced myself to buy a plane ticket up to Canada to try it.
With the thumb clusters having their own PCBs...Absolutely! I've already had several people contact me both here and externally about being able to tweak the layout to accommodate their hands or a disability. I would absolutely be happy to provide a tweaked version for someone. Because I still need to eat and those types of adjustment take time, I would probably have to charge for it, but I would do my best to make it an affordable option. the other part of this as well is that I need to figure out the best way for someone to show me how they need it adjusted, so there will have to be some R&D put into that as well. It won't be something I can offer right away, but is definitely something I hope I can follow up on quickly.
I naturally thought that any adjustments
(like rotation & depth of the thumb clusters)
was going to be possible.
Maybe I was just hoping... because
for my wife, using her thumbs is a very painful experience.
I was hoping that the discrete thumb cluster PCBs
would allow the adjustability to help her with that.
?Is there any chance at all of
personalized adjustability with the thumb clusters??
By request:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7803.jpg)
not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but
i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.
Thanks, but that's not a video.Well you'd pretty much just see me doing movie style typing, since that set up doesn't have any kind of controller on board yet :P When I get the next round of boards done, I will be posting many videos when it's up and running.
JK.
I uh, I'm glad you like it lol.
not to say the rest of your updates arent amazing but
i almost fell out of my chair when i saw this. it is my dream travel board, i can't imagine how daerid is feeling after seeing that.
Indescribable. Almost.... aroused. I can't remember the last time I lusted this hard after a piece of hardware (of any kind, not just keyboards)
Does it make it worse when I tell you that all of the features I have planned for the split board, including bluetooth (though possibly w/ reduced battery life) will all work on the travel size as well? :D
By request:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7803.jpg)
I'm taking split ergo any day over everything else.
you sir have far too many atmegas lolHave you been snooping? I don't remember posting that one :PShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7550.JPG)
Exactly ;)I'm taking split ergo any day over everything else.
Why not both :D.
Just had to go back a few pages to drool over the ergoGP again, cant wait for the 9th and the kickstarter if everything goes to plan.I'm considering offering a level on the Kickstarter that could include both for a reduced price if that helps ;)
Id have both, but the wife holds the purse strings and I'd be in the doghouse.
you sir have far too many atmegas lolHave you been snooping? I don't remember posting that one :PShow Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_7550.JPG)
So the timeframe of the september 9th kickstarter is for a beta kit, right?
If so, then when can we expect the actual release version?
I'll be putting the site together over the weekend for where you guys can order, as I'll be testing my boards over the next couple of days and should hopefully be readying the next batch for order by tuesday. After that it'll come down to whether I feel I need to do another board revision before ordering the prototype batch, or if I should just go for it. Either way, I'll have a firm timeline for Tuesday (yay long weekend!).AcidFire I'm VERY late to this thread, but thoroughly impressed... do you have a website already? What is it ?
Actually, that was something I marked as a standard feature to the CPU board, but forgot to add it to the last version of the board. The new version will include it :DI'll be putting the site together over the weekend for where you guys can order, as I'll be testing my boards over the next couple of days and should hopefully be readying the next batch for order by tuesday. After that it'll come down to whether I feel I need to do another board revision before ordering the prototype batch, or if I should just go for it. Either way, I'll have a firm timeline for Tuesday (yay long weekend!).AcidFire I'm VERY late to this thread, but thoroughly impressed... do you have a website already? What is it ?
BTW it would be great if your design allows for a piezo buzzer for click sounds. Used to this from Kinesis Advantage keyboards, I added one (sparkfun COM-07950) to my Ergodox and modified the firmware to drive it... The audible feedback helps prevent bottoming out with linear switches like red cherries.
Audio sample here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386
Like the older pics weren't juicy enough.But if you kill me now, how will I finish the project?
So you want me to kill you?
Yes, but the torture would stop.True, but that's a bit like having your favorite show cancelled after it ends on a cliffhanger. Sure you won't be tortured waiting for the next episode, but you'll never get any closure either ;)
Yes, but the torture would stop.True, but that's a bit like having your favorite show cancelled after it ends on a cliffhanger. Sure you won't be tortured waiting for the next episode, but you'll never get any closure either ;)
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....
Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D
Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....
Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D
Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....
Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D
Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0
oooo. very nice
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....
Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D
Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0
oooo. very nice
Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential
Apologies if this has been discussed already but since the project is moving at such a pace ....
Has anyone considered a keyboard cover for the ergoGP? :D
Noting extravagant, maybe just a filco style plastic cover for the 70% or two pieces for the split layout? Shouldn't add too much more to the cost :D
I made this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45720.0
oooo. very nice
Thanks. Here in India, dust is a major plague and covers are essential
My office is very dusty. I cover my keyboard every night.
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!
Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!
Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)
He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14352.jpg)
Holy Crap this is moving along so quickly!
Do you have access to a CNC or something? (if youve stated it, thread is tl;dr)(but will have to look through them all)
He has several laser cutters and an unlimited supply of 1.5mm acrylic.
So jealous right now, I could cry :'( wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.
Can't wait. Must. Have
So jealous right now, I could cry :'( wonderfull new pictures as well, thanks for rubbing it in even more :))
Adding a cover for the split ergo would be fantastic too, as an added extra for cost.
I've had a design in mind for a cover, but haven't offered anything yet because I'm still working on the PCB design and layout, which can affect the design of the case. Once I've got those settled out completely, a new set of stands, keystation, & covers will be designed to match.
Can't wait. Must. Have
Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.
Can't wait. Must. Have
Looks like we'll be waiting a little longer.
Hopefully the delay should only be a week or two longer than originally planned, I'm going to put a bit of extra money in to get everything shipped faster, and I'll be sending the PCB designs in this weekend.
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
He's not a newb haha.
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
He's not a newb haha.
A measure of newb is my the length of time one has been on a forum, him, you and I, all three of us are newbs
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?
You've only been here two months AcidFire, you're still a newb, don't bother.
Sorry, what exactly should I not be bothering with?
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.
Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.
1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?
2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?
3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?
I am impressed by your work AcidFire.1. Thats the plan, you'll be able to change the language on the board, and even set it depending on a layer, so you could have russian/cyrillic on one layer, and english on another.
Being new to the world of keyboard hacking I have a few questions regarding your keyboards.
1. Will your keyboards work with different keyboard layouts for other languages than English? Some layouts use more keys than standard US keyboards provide. Will your keyboard be easily programmable for non-English characters?
2. I usually rest my palms against a palm rest when I type. Will the edge between the thumb keyboard and the main keyboard feel uncomfortable if you rest your hands against the keyboard?
3. Regarding your 70% design. Have you considered putting an angle between the left and right keyboard part to avoid ulnar deviation?
Finally finished reading the thread. Awesome concept, I am in to buy one, er actually at least two. Definitely down for the prototype. I have a few thoughts floating around in my head after reading all of these posts so I am just going to throw them all out there, if you like any of them cool, if not I won't be hurt and want to buy some of these either way. I am an owner of many ergo keyboards including my freshly built ergodox a couple of months back as well as a programmer so let me know if I can help in any way. Ok here goes.Glad you managed to power through, and kudos for taking the time to actually read it all. To answer your questions:
1. I love that you are going bluetooth. Personally I say don't sweat the ios compatibility, just put a bluetooth radio in each unit. Besides making the whole thing easier to put together I would say you would be benefitting more gamers who might want to use a single board only as a gaming board than you would be harming people wanting to hook these up to their ipads. I can't imagine that many people doing that, I rarely see anyone using a keyboard with their ipad and when I do it is either a keyboard case or an apple wireless keyboard.
2. The increased separation on the pinkie and index fingers are great. Personally I like even more curve between columns but I don't think many people would agree with me on that. As you increase the separation you actually make this more piano like. As most piano players know rsi is greatly reduced when you stop curling your fingers, but to curl less when typing you almost need a greater difference between column heights to account for finger length. Try holding your fingers straight out and see how much easier it is to move them independently than when they are curled. Makes a huge difference for me.
3. Is a custom lithium ion pack needed? Just asking, I have no idea of the power requirements but I know just having a charger with some AA eneloops in it works great for my other wireless devices. Cheap and easy, and in a pinch AA's are easy to find. I am not against a lithium ion pack though, just wondering if you save anything not needing the charging components.
4. A couple of extra keys on the bottom to allow four way movement keys truly ergonomic style would be awesome. It is the one feature I really miss when I am not using they keyboard, I never liked the Kinisis Advantage style layout as much. I am now using my ergodox daily but never could find an ideal layout that allowed me to have something similar to the truly ergonomic's:
left up/down right home pg up/pg dn end
5. Someone asked about unused keys on the ergodox. I don't use any of the furthest out thumb cluster keys, they are too hard to reach. I don't use the extra keys that would be between 6 and 7 on a regular keyboard either, I tend to miss them and hit the larger 1.5 size keys below them.
6. I think you have designed in some extra LEDs to show what layer I am on through some combination of lights. Just wanted to say, awesome. After three months of usage once every couple of weeks I still end up lost in a layer I am not sure of on my Ergodox and the quickest way to get back to good is to just unplug my keyboard and plug it back in. Can't tell you how silly I feel rebooting my keyboard to quickly get back to work.
7. I agree with some of the general concepts shown at http://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/9187587157/in/set-72157634289665901 My thumb doesn't move the same way as my other fingers, it wants to move down as it moves away from my palm, not on the same plane as the rest of my fingers. I guess the best way of saying that is that on the Z axis as I extend my thumb away from my hand it wants to move closer to the desk. I actually end up using my thumb to hit the inner most key on the bottom row of my ergodox that is not on the thumb cluster more than anything else except space. I use that key as my main "swap to symbols" layer when programming and have found it more comfortable to keep the thumb pretty close to my hand instead of stretching it to reach the thumb cluster.
8. If using plate mount, could the mount be somehow made small enough to fit inside of the main case instead of being a part of it. The best way I can explain this is that if you have an ergodox without palm rests and wanted to switch to a ergodox case with palm rests you could not, because the plate is doing two jobs, holding the keys in place, and two being part of the main cases structure. Makes it hard to do cool lego like switching of cases. Without that one feature you could pretty easily swap cases every few months as you saw fit. The ergodox plate hasn't stopped me from opening my switches and swapping springs, just means I can never swap cases unless I want to desolder every key.
9. Last one, I promise. Can your design accept input from the computer that would allow me to switch layers? I would loooooove to be able to write an app that would switch profiles based on what application has focus, I could automatically switch key layers/mappings based on whether vim, photoshop, chrome, or a video game had the focus. How cool would that be?
Thanks for your awesome work, now please take my money!!!
-Shane
Finally little preview of what's coming tomorrow:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14411.jpg)
I spent a bit of time with the laser today, so I've got lots to show off :D
How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!
I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).
AcidFire,I'll probably need a hand testing it, but yes, the plan is to keep it multilingual friendly :)
Thank you for your feedback. I was planning on building an Ergodox, but I think your design looks more interesting.
Today I use a traditional Swedish keyboard with the additional umlaut characters Å, Ä, Ö next to the 'L' and 'P' keys in a qwerty layout. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
I wish to keep a similar layout but on a more user friendly keyboard. :)
It's not an issue of patents, it's an issue of availability. I can't order modules, I'd have to rip them from keyboards, which presents issues of supply. I'm not only looking at trackballs, but a number of options so that you guys can pick the option that best suits you.How about adding a trackpoint to the keyboard? I know you're going to be making a trackball addon, but it would be nice to have a trackpoint too, as standard in the keyboard so we do not have to lift our fingers away from the keyboard for simple mousing operations. Just an idea!
I don't think this could be offered as an addon, could it? Since it has to be on the keyboard itself (left or right side).
Isn't there some stupid patent (s) which makes the trackpoint a no go?
Would be nice to have but not a must ;)
E.g. http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6115030
I was thinking about joining the current MassDrop ErgoDox group buy, as I fell in love with the ErgoDox concept. Between the unavailability of Cherry MX Browns (I need to buy it assembled) and my concerns about the thumb cluster, I'll sadly be giving it a pass. Maybe it's the fact that it was two-dimensional, or maybe just because I'm female, but when I printed "to size" pdfs of the two halves, they felt enormous; I had a tough time with the position of the thumb clusters. Aside from arthritis in my finger joints, I have nerve issues with my pinkies caused by neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, plus I have problems with the tendons in my thumbs. I've been dying for a truly split, tentable (is that even a word?), mechanical keyboard, but I also need to make sure if I'm paying $250+ that it'll actually fit my small, messed up hands.I don't think you're questions are critical at all! If I were in your situation I would be asking the same questions. Design wise, the thumb cluster seems to be reachable by smaller hands, as I've had my girlfriend test it. However, if there is a need to have the cluster tweaked and brought in a bit for smaller hands, I would be happy to design a case to bring the cluster closer, while still keeping the modularity of the keypads.
When I saw your project (amazing job - wish I had your skills!), I was very interested in how you lowered the thumb section.
I have a few questions:
- Is this keyboard going to be any smaller/any easier to use for people with smaller hands vs. the ErgoDox?
- Have you ever considered seeing if you could angle the thumb section downward, as opposed to just lowering the entire cluster (but leaving it level)? Or, perhaps having the thumb cluster attached via some sort of hinge to allow the user to adjust the angle for comfort? The human thumb rests at an angle from the hand in its neutral position, yet even the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards overlook that fact. Great info on the anatomy of the hand at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~humananatomy/part_2/chapter_11.html).
Assuming it's even feasible from a design/fabrication standpoint, angling the thumb section would allow more natural thumb movement and reach. I have a Key Tronic FlexPro keyboard (sitting in a box, sadly, wish it was tkl and mechanical) but I always loved the fact that you could actuate the space bar not just from the top, but also from the inner edges when tenting the two keyboard sections. It just felt RIGHT to curl my thumb inward a bit to actuate the space bar.
For all I know, I'm insane to even ask, and I hope my questions don't come across as critical of your design (or that of the ErgoDox - they're both amazing!), but as a woman with fubar thumbs AND pinkies, I was curious. Regardless, if I could buy one of your great keyboards (assembled) with Cherry MX Browns, I would jump on the chance...IF I thought I could (reasonably) reach everything.'
Also, for people worrying about batteries, just buy some Sanyo eneloops and a charger - problem solved. That's what Logitech uses in their G700 mice which is great, since you can have extra charged for quick swap-outs if you hate using the USB cable.
Regarding my currently layout, you can see it here. I actually have my number row permanently shifted although it doesn't show in the diagram so I just press 8 for * as an example, and shift + 8 to actually get number 8, or more frequently hold down my layer shift key and use the 8 on the numpad.I think you're missing a link or some content at the beginning of your post. As for extra buttons, I've been playing with the design but haven't been able to find somewhere comfortable under the bottom row of keys to add more. Hopefully, with the changes made to the thumb cluster, you'll find it a bit more useful. There will also be other thumb cluster layouts that will allow you to have more buttons at your disposal, and of course you can always add external pads quite easily as well.
I don't love how I have my direction keys but just didn't have enough keys to come up with a better layout, if there were one more key below the WSX column I would have just put my direction on the main layer and never have to shift to get to them, but as is the best I could do was hold down the function key with one hand and then access the full set of function keys as I like with my other hand.
Overall though this has been a huge improvement when programming. I know plenty of people will say use the old vim style hjkl (which I do) but I also use plenty of other programs that make frequent use of arrow keys plus home/end/pg up/pg down.
I also wish I could find one more place for a hyper key (for me basically command + ctrl + alt + shift) which makes it really easy to have shortcuts that aren't used by other modifier keys. I currently do this by overloading the caps lock, if I tap the caps lock it is esc, if I hold it and press another key it is hyper. I actually have a few unused keys because it didn't end up being a case of not having enough keys, it came down to not having enough keys in the right places. The thumb cluster which looked so great on the ergodox ended up far less useful than planned, the only two keys I can conveniently reach are the two large keys, so in effect I have only three keys I can reach with each thumb, the two large keys on the main cluster, and the layer shift key I use which is the bottom row closest to the thumb cluster on each hand. Sure does work out well though, especially setup to be a sticky key so I don't have to actually chord when I am programming, if I want to type an underscore for example I just tap the key directly below V with my left hand, then what would be H with my right hand. Really helpful when programming in Ruby which loves variables_named_in_snake_case.
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?
Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?
That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.
gorgeous stuff mate !!!
That new photo booth working its magic, Thanks for the updates as it's always nice to see things moving along
That 70% is looking better the more I look at it.Thank you :D And I find posting updates, even small ones, motivational, in part because of feedback and when you start to take pride in showing what you've worked on, it drives you to put even more time and effort into making it better.
Nice work on the plates.
Yes, the number pad isn't exclusive to the keystation, or any other configuration. There are two ports on each of the split halves, one of which would be available on each side after they are connected. On the straight & split boards, you'll have 4 ports free as the keypads will be connected internally.Did I see a separate number pad a few pages back? Or was that just a module?
That was part of the 'keystation'. So yes, a module in a way.
I think it was more "the keystation has a spot for the numpad" than "the numpad is part of the keystation". I'm pretty sure it can be used with or without the keystation. I am not sure if it can be used without the main board or if it connects through it though.
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?
where can we see these stainless steel plates from "the_beast"? was something like this made for ergodox?
I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.
Oh boy oh boy. I can't wait. Will there be options for custom color options? I'd love a white acrylic case to match my color scheme. Thanks!Of course :D How could I claim to have a completely customizable keyboard without the choice of custom colors for the cases ;)
where can we see these stainless steel plates from "the_beast"? was something like this made for ergodox?Negative, I just mentioned these as an example of stainless steel switch plates created for other keyboard models. [Not even sure The_Beast is interested in another round of dealing with laser fab shops, it sounds like a thankless task!]
But, IF a stainless steel plate (or plates...) were an option for the ErgoGP, I'd be even more happy with this custom keyboard. If that's even possible. :p
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?+1 for this. As much as I like the look of the acrylic cases, the stainless steel plates from The_Beast are superb. Maybe a kit build option, sourcing the plates from The_Beast?
Aluminium plates would be more realistic. I don't know if he's got a laser cutter for the job, though...
If you're going for plates being separate from the case itself, any chance for stainless steel?Aluminum & Stainless plates aren't out of the question. I currently don't have the capability to cut either, but that might change if the kickstarter goes very well. Either I acquire or lease a laser, or I find a shop to do it at a decent price.
I'm thinking for the beta testers, I'm going to include all three case designs (still only enough electronics to build one) so that everyone who is testing has the opportunity to give me feedback on all three.I am. I am 150% sure about that 70% board. It makes me drool.
What took you so long :)
Yea for me it's going to be both :D. One at a time though, probably starting with the 70%- though, don't know will toss a coin when time comes.
Keep up the excellent work Acid :)
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Sold on the 70% angled design. 100% sold! Since much more excited about the regular split design but that is perfect for travel.
I love it. Like Blue said, I still prefer the proper split, but this will definitely be the board I take when I travel.You mean besides like a orgasm?Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:That is pretty awesome... how does it feel on your hands?Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
oh my this looks to be even better than before, this looks like something that would actually replace everything, use it for home+travel1. I agree. I'm working to minimise them, but right now I go a little nuts because it lets me remove some and test to see which are absolutely needed, and which aren't.
though i do want to add my input, just throwing this out there:
1. Cosmetically all the bolts really is unappealing, looks to be 18 of them. maybe if they were countersunk and black on black then i think i would like it. I also hate this about my ergodox, i think of them as warts. You may have mentioned this is only for prototyping in your designs and sorry if i missed it if so
2. I know you are going for getting a bunch of keys on there but i just dont see the point of 2 of the keys in the top center.Show Image(http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/BDY14440_edited.jpg)
it may look better without them and be one less 1.5 key cap i would have to acquire (i do like "bringing my own" key caps)
Third design, yes!It's something I've got marked down for the second batch of board designs, as it would require a heavy modification to the board design to make it work. But I'm not counting it out yet.
Remove the keys in the center, and add a trackball, maybe remove the 1.5x on the sides to make it more portable.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47220.0
Well the non split was put together rather quickly based on daerid's concept, and I imagine there will be some who prefer it. I however agree about the deviation, and thus this was the logical next step. I actually didn't turn this one around as quickly as I wanted, but I'm not used to working at angles like they are on this one (OCD is not my friend with this sort of thing.)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
now, this, I would use. The original 70% didn't seem like a good idea to me due to the ulnar deviation. I was envisioning something like this instead (which in all honesty, is somewhat like a catboard, but with more buttons). And man, you sure do get these prototypes out fast. Can't wait for these to start selling.
Are you still accepting Beta testers? If so, please add me.http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta) - Fill that out, I'm still taking applications.
Design three - yes, yes, yes. Think that'll become my travel board. An otherwise crappy day has been salvaged with awesome updates to this thread.Glad I could pick up your day for you :D
Well the non split was put together rather quickly based on daerid's concept, and I imagine there will be some who prefer it. I however agree about the deviation, and thus this was the logical next step. I actually didn't turn this one around as quickly as I wanted, but I'm not used to working at angles like they are on this one (OCD is not my friend with this sort of thing.)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Wow... you are fast. This looks amazing. However, I must say that (at least for me), I would much prefer the straight design. I've tried tilting my ErgoDox, and it just doesn't feel right, and puts too much strain on my pinkies. I have fairly large hands and type with straight wrists as it is, so the straight 70% looks absolutely perfect for me.
But that's the beauty of your design. Completely modular. You sir, are a master.
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
In an orchestra, one conductor leads a large group of highly talented musicians to create a masterpiece.Coming from you sir, that means the world :D. I'm a bit surprised at the amount of do want the 75% ergoboard is getting, but glad that the design was worth fighting through.
You sir, took your cues from dozens of "conductors" and using your prodigious skills are working toward a travel keyboard masterpiece. The GP is a fine design but I believe the travel version may become your magnum opus. I think it strikes a good balance between portability, ergonomic improvement, affordability(from simple construction) and appearance. I can't wait to see what's next. Built in nail clipper?
Sometimes I think there are too many damn buttons.Thats the nice thing about a modular system, you can set yourself up to have only as many switches as you need. Besides, more switches means a need for more binge caps :D
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?
Not quite. Here's a pic of how my hands rest on the ErgoDox:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TM60d7b.jpg)
It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.
It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.
Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.
So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.
So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.
Why "ascendancy"? That's a word that doesn't immediately suggest to me what you're trying to do with the project (not that I have a better one ATM mind you).
Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.
Not that I can tell. Maybe I just have odd fingers. It's quite comfortable for me.
Reducing ulnar deviation is a traditional method of improving keyboard ergonomics. I was surprised to hear that you prefer the straight design. Do you hold your ErgoDox apart at shoulder width?
Not quite. Here's a pic of how my hands rest on the ErgoDox:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/TM60d7b.jpg)
It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight. I've found that if I rotate the ergodox at all it puts much more strain on my ring and pinky fingers than I like and my wrists tent to deviate radially, which is also uncomfortable.
Don't your fingers travel in an unnatural manner then, at angle to the left for left hand and right for right hand rather than just curling them back and forth.
Not that I can tell. Maybe I just have odd fingers. It's quite comfortable for me.
my guess you keep the keyboard far away from your body. Because if like most people you keep the keyboard as low and close to your belly as possible, you have to angle it (3rd design) or significantly distance the 2 halves, otherwise the wrists become totally bent.
The 2nd would be awesome with some sort of hinge in the middle to split it...
As promised in the 40% thread, two designs:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14443.jpg)
The one at the top is based on a pair of the 4x5 modules I'm designing, the one on the bottom would be a different board entirely.
As promised in the 40% thread, two designs:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14443.jpg)
The one at the top is based on a pair of the 4x5 modules I'm designing, the one on the bottom would be a different board entirely.
my guess you keep the keyboard far away from your body. Because if like most people you keep the keyboard as low and close to your belly as possible, you have to angle it (3rd design) or significantly distance the 2 halves, otherwise the wrists become totally bent.
pretty much what sordna said. I keep mine as near to my waist level as much as I can, and I require it angled quite a bit to keep my wrists totally straight. To keep it at the waist perfectly straight would require me to put the halves further apart, at shoulder width like kurplop has mentioned. Sordna's guess is probably accurate - the keyboard is probably further away than your body compared to most.
but daerid, have you considered the distance between the two halves of the ergodox? due to the design of the thumb cluster, there is a minimum distance of about 4 to 5 keys (1x size) that cannot be bridged, whereas on design 1 (for the nonsplit), the length between the two 'halves' is 2 key's width. Unless one uses the keyboard in a way that keeps their arms (yes, arms, not wrists) stretched far away from their body (in theory, further away than where your ergodox is right now), there will likely be ulnar deviation.
I hope I don't miss this once it get into GB phase.
When I put up the Kickstarter campaign, I plan to offer a couple of early bird reward levels that will be limited to 50-100 units that I should be able to get out by christmas. The rest will be uncapped so that as many people as possible can jump in (which benefits everyone.)I hope I don't miss this once it get into GB phase.
There is plenty of time before that phase.
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.The 2nd would be awesome with some sort of hinge in the middle to split it...Yeah, agreed, maybe at the top and BT would make ti perfect.
Is the keyless space at the top is needed for controller?To match the current functionality yes, as it not only is space for the main controller, but also for things like the LED backlighting.
TBH, this was part of the reason. It's also a bit based on some of the marketing training I've done, as well as finding a name that sounds... fancy. While names like Storm or Orb Weaver wouldn't make make a gamer or geek think twice, they tend to be less appealing to a general audience. I went with ascendancy because... well it sounds cool for one. I also think that it is a bit fitting, because a modular keyboard that allow you put something together that suits you, is the next level (trying so hard to say this without sounding conceited.)So for the modular system itself, I've decided to call it Ascendancy. Will probably keep the GP for the split boards, will have to come up with something other than straight or ergo for the 75% boards.
Why "ascendancy"? That's a word that doesn't immediately suggest to me what you're trying to do with the project (not that I have a better one ATM mind you).
I think that it sounds cool.
I would suggest a hinge at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it to fold up or tent with little effort.
I would suggest a hinge at the top, so that you can rotate the two halves about it at some angle to create an inverse v shape for ergonomics.My concern with a hinge at the top is that it would need to be either very big/thick acrylic, or something else entirely and even then it's still very much a weakpoint. A hinge splitting it right down the middle might be possible and would allow it to fold up or tent with little effort.
This is turning into the end-all be-all for custom keyboards, for me. 75%, 40%, updated ErgoDox layout, numpad...
</slow clap>
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Perhaps adding a "metal backing" with hinge would work...Problem is, the boards act like a lever on the hinge, and warping it is still an easy possibility.
(Attachment Link)
Would love to be able to do that, but would have to be something down the line since it would have to be injection molded (expensive :( )Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
That would be cool, like a Goldtouch or similar, so it can be tented!
Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.I think the op is planning to do multiple variations, both split and non split.Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
Why hinge at all when you could just split it?
like the original ergogp idea.
Exactly this. With modular pads a number of options open up for different cases which can be developed quickly because the electronics don't need a redesign for different layouts or styles.
Speaking of which, I finally finished with the left thumb board design which will be my test bed for the new control ICs before I order the rest of the boards. To illustrate what changed (and why the design took so long), here's a comparison between the previous design & the new one.Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/pcb-comparison2.png)
While the new boards lose the ability to be reversible, they gain a much better control system with greater flexibility & less chance of something going wrong or failing. There are also libraries written for them already, reducing development & QA time.
On those layouts blue is back, red is front.
The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.On those layouts blue is back, red is front.
I meant left or right half.
The controller is still a separate board, that can be placed in either the left or right half.On those layouts blue is back, red is front.
I meant left or right half.
Yes. The system is designed to auto detect what is connected to it. Anything that hasn't been connected to it before will have defaults loaded, which can then be changed in the software. Because of the way the addressing system works, if you have a half that has the main keypad go bad and can't be fixed, you can drop in a new one with the same address & the controller will act like it was never gone.
I have some ideas for the software & firmware that would load different profiles (which contain all your layers) depending on what is connected to it. So if you had the split setup, and removed the right half, the remaining would switch to it's profile that is loaded with the layers for your favorite games. This may not be possible with the ATMEGA32u4 I'm starting with, but when I make the jump to something ARM based that should be very doable.
Did the name change again?
Did the name change again?
Shhh that was suppose to be sneaky ;) I thought a bit more about it, and with some feedback from others did a bit more research into a name that would actually suit what was going on with the project. TBH I've been on so many projects that have had their name changed a dozen times before release that changing it on a bit of a whim doesn't seem all that unusual to me. I will however say that I am much happier with this name and don't plan on changing it again.
So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?
So I could just use the left half while gaming, Orbweaver style?
I'd want it like this too on many an occasion
It's a cool name, if google doesn't sue you.
Can't wait for the beta.
• Nexus™ family of marks for mobile devices and peripherals
Hmmmm, awesome idea ...Split it to fold, or split to make it ergonomic? And yes, if it was portable I think bluetooth would be a must.
Split for ergonomic...
So people can adjust it to their liking (and perhaps fix it by tightening a screw).
(Attachment Link)
Thought of a inverted V fold as in the mock-up,
but perhaps 2 axis folding could be archived with some sort of ball-joint?
I'm planning to use a nice thumbscrew so that you can position it the way you want and then lock it in. When your done and need to pack it up, you just loosen it, straighten the board out, and lock it again.
AcidFire, you gotta see this, adjustable columns:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45389.0
I had the same thought when I was retooling the grid spacing on my design, but couldn't get past the idea of how to work the case. It's fantastic to see the concept in action, awesome work!
Couple remarks/questions so far.
- I'm not a big fan of the ErgoDox style 1.5u keys, which I assume descend from Kinesis' 1.25u outer keys. Not a big fan to the extent that I cut up my Kinesis (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.msg654280#msg654280) to ‘fix’ it. The wide keys have a high cost in terms of keycap layout flexibility for, as I see it, no real benefit.
- Forgive me if I missed it, but I don't quite follow how multiple modules connect together. I see I²C mentioned, and on some PCBs (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1017002#msg1017002) what appears to be a single TRRS footprint, ErgoDox style (originally my suggestion (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg511086#msg511086), yay for me), but not how multiple modules are connected. I assume they're not daisy-chained, since I see only one connector — are they run in a star to the controller? I²C is not supposed to be used that way… do you find it works anyway? Has it been tried with longer cables (e.g. around the back of a chair, for armrest mounts)?
1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.
As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.
I've been looking at that as well, but there are other ways around it. I'll be running tests to see what kind of draw there is both with and without the backlight, but I know that typically it's very low when the expanders are in use.1. This is something I've been pondering as well, from both size & cost benefits. I believe it decends from keyboard design in general, where modifier keys on the left/right side of the board are a different size to help distinguish them from standard keys.
Typewriters traditionally had slightly larger shift keys,
(Attachment Link)
but after that wider keys seemed to be mostly used to square up a layout, and there was a mix of keyboards that did and those that didn't.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Eventually the influence of the IBM PC took over, and everyone went square…As for running the devices in a star and issues that would arise from that, I've never heard of that and we've never seen that sort of issue at the office, and we sell a number of i2c based devices.Good to know. I've seen dire warnings about I²C busses and termination issues and such, but I'm a software guy, so your colleagues' experience is reassuring, especially since they probably have an electrically noisier environment.
I've gone for SPI for this purpose, and then, already being beyond the photo jack capacity, brought across the I/O expander interrupt pin as well, which could allow the controller to avoid polling and go to sleep, which (as I fantasize without actually measuring) might be good for battery life in a future wireless version.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)
It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)
AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
How is progress with this?Currently waiting on the new test boards to come in so I can be sure the electronics work the way they should. I ordered it friday, and it mentioned that it should be ready to be sent to me by the 10th. I went with OSHPark this time, who are based in the US so I should get it a lot faster this time. I've also got all the electronics on hand and ready to go for when it comes in. Once they've been tested and I can feel confident ordering boards, I'll notify the selected beta testing applicants that they can order their hardware. After that, the actual campaign to fund proper production will all come down to beta testing feedback.
Reaching GB status anytime soon? :)
I don't want to appear too greedy, but I'll happily pay for all three variants. I'd be surprised if I'm alone in that regard.Would you be looking for three complete kits or just enough parts to try each layout? And I'm glad you like the work, I've put a fair amount of time and thought in. And to me, not listening to feedback or having proper testing done by those who want to use this sort of thing is one of the biggest mistakes I could make in this. I could not have come this far without all of the input from you guys and a few others.
Really impressed with the work you've done - very inventive coupled with attention to feedback.
Dat price...I've already been offered a spot in the retailer forums for the lasering service, and I'm sure I could set something up there for beta tester blogs. Barring that, I do plan to put up a forum on my site for this sort of thing, if only to provide an avenue for easy feedback/discussion.
And I thought that the previous ~$150 was a good deal for a beta kit! I'll still keep $150 set aside, just in case.
Once I get a beta kit, I'd like to make a daily updated blog on GH of my experience with it.
I'm in for the 70% (DERP)To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.
To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.
This^Quote from: AcidFire link=topic=44940.msg1027604#msg1027604 date=1378
254425To be clear, that price isn't the final, just the production cost of the beta units. I'm still targeting for $200.00 for the full kits when they're ready, and less (probably around $160-180) for the straight boards. As much as I'd love to make them cheaper, I do need to make some kind of profit so I can hopefully justify working on them and future additions full time.
There's absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn't make some sort of profit on this. This project is miles above most others that come up around here, and so far your quality is top-notch. You should be rewarded for your time, effort, and ingenuity. And also profits mean that you can continue to do so!
AcidFire: What do you think of the feel of the DSA frosted caps from SP? How close do they feel to standard ABS?I don't have anything working yet that I can test with, but so far they feel very similar to ABS.
Nice to see the split version will have different size, but do you have any tip to how to choose a size? Based on your hands size?TBH it's mostly going to be trial & error, this is where I may swallow the cost a bit and anyone who orders the split for beta will get all three sizes to test. From there I can hopefully get some metrics to help people figure out what size suits them.
Can't wait to see this anyway!
There's absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn't make some sort of profit on this. This project is miles above most others that come up around here, and so far your quality is top-notch. You should be rewarded for your time, effort, and ingenuity. And also profits mean that you can continue to do so!Very much appreciate the thought. I would love to be able to do this full time, and I'm working toward that end hopefully. Right now I'm happy with the cost vs price.
AcidFire. It would be great if you could test the hinge mechanism I posted earlier.I will get to it, however I'm currently focused on finishing the first three designs. Once I've gotten those out of the way and am waiting for parts for the beta, I'm going to work on the bluetooth modules & 40% parts.
certainly wouldn't mind testing more than one layout if I'm in the beta. the regular ergogp would be an interesting comparison to the ergodox and the ergo 70% definitely has caught my interest. from the plate cutouts posted in the thread earlier, am I right to assume that you can reuse the same, main alpha clusters in different acrylic cases to achieve the variants with a few additional modules? Certainly would be good to get just enough parts to at least test out the variants involved, and perhaps get a good gauge of how the modularity works should one want to swap the parts around.
That estimated price for a full kit is just astoundingly low, by the way.
Do you mean the beta kit price, or the production price? I've found a couple of parts that not only reduce the size of the PCBs, but are also 20% of the existing part. My only issue is that I have to order a minimum of $1000 just in jacks, to have enough to build the beta units. Unfortunately, they'll only let me order a sample of 50, and I need 300~ to do the beta boards. I may have a way around this that I'll be investigating tomorrow.
I was referring to the beta kit prices. Was honestly expecting to have to pay a higher figure, especially seeing as how switches and caps alone, going by massdrop ergodox prices, would run someone between 60 - 80 bucks. A full kit for 110-120 is really.. wow, considering the cost of raw materials, screws, r&d time you spent on this. (definitely not complaining about it though)120 is what I'm shooting for, however the price of switches particularly will definitely have an effect on that. I sat down and did a number of revisions to my pricing sheet last night and I may end up closer to the original 150-160 than I was hoping for. Obviously for those who already have switches or caps or both, it'll be much lower (Currently hovering around the 80 mark.)
The production price of 200 is very attractive too, compared to the current crop of competitors on the market. At 200 for a full kit, it might just be the end of ergodox group buys at massdrop.
Now I'm curious about how you're going to be reducing the pcb size... they already look pretty compact as it is.
Interested! Tho I'd prefer surface mount components to be pre-installed, I suck at soldering this stuff ^^;Both assembled & unassembled kits will come with all the SMD components pre mounted. The only soldering you'll have to do is installing the switches & backlight LEDs.
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!
Where do we register?
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!
Where do we register?
If you haven't done so already, you can register here. (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta)
On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?
Sorry should have been clear, I'm looking at converting them to 1x. This would also turn the two vertical 1.5x into three 1x, making an extra key available for use.On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?
Eliminate or convert to 1x? They're nice, but 1x would probably be just as good. Being gone all together would make for quite the key shortage though.
Sorry should have been clear, I'm looking at converting them to 1x. This would also turn the two vertical 1.5x into three 1x, making an extra key available for use.On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?
Eliminate or convert to 1x? They're nice, but 1x would probably be just as good. Being gone all together would make for quite the key shortage though.
^^ means I will have to get myself a soldering station quite soon!
Where do we register?
If you haven't done so already, you can register here. (http://multiplxd.com/ergogp/beta)
On an unrelated note, I've been wondering how people would feel if I eliminated the 1.5x keys completely, including the two vertical ones?
Personally, I like the 1.5 keys. I would sacrifice them for an overall smaller sized board, though.Is there something in particular you like about those keys?
Personally, I like the 1.5 keys. I would sacrifice them for an overall smaller sized board, though.Is there something in particular you like about those keys?
Agreed, 1.5 have not been terribly useful to me; 1's would work fine.
@spspencer: just get colored key caps! :)
After testing out the plates with the 1.5x reduced, I have to say I prefer the 1.5 on the outside edges. That being said, I'm also considering a bit of a compromise and reducing them to 1.25x. While this breaks compatibility with the ErgoDox kits, these are also sizes that seem to be more commonly found, particularly in full board kits, and allows for a bit of a size reduction still of the boards. There is also something to be said for the fact that 1.5 are more common in SP's inventory than 1.25, so I think this needs a bit more research.
Whatever I end up deciding for the sides, I am going to change the two vertical 1.5x to three 1x as I see no point to them being 1.5x and having the extra key could definitely be useful.
TL;DR Version
Lots of good R&D stuff that means the $120 beta cost & $200 retail are much more feasible.
For now, I'm going to work with the idea of 1.5x outside, with the verticals replaced by 3 keys, but this is still subject to some testingThough I'd prefer 1u, I do think 1.5u is preferable to 1.25u.
For now, I'm going to work with the idea of 1.5x outside, with the verticals replaced by 3 keys, but this is still subject to some testingThough I'd prefer 1u, I do think 1.5u is preferable to 1.25u.
Would it be practical (i.e. not cost more, not be too much effort) to give the PCB extra pads in the 1u locations (similar to what Phantom has)? If you're using Eagle I think this would be most easily done with an alternate package of the switch device (and I'd be happy to create the package if it would help). Actually, that would probably satisfy the people who want 1.5u in the middle, too.
Ok, THAT was a marathon read. All 27 pages and I was sad there weren't more. :)I will definitely take you up on that :D I'll be designing a test board over the weekend for the M0 and hopefully before the end of the month the first complete firmware will be in testing.
I'm totally in love with this project. If you need some firmware help, feel free to PM me. I'm a programmer at my day job and I've programmed for Cortex M3 chips for my quadcopter hobby/obsession.
Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.
If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.
2) With more RAM and the ability have the device mount as a storage device, Profiles & Macros will be stored on a MicroSD card that will be included as part of the base kit. The result is two fold, you'll be able to edit profiles & macros with just a text editor, and you should also be able to take the configuration software with you as well. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to make it worth taking other files, but thats also a possibility.
1: As far as I understand it should show as two devices, but in all honesty I can't say entirely for sure until I've tried. I'll look at a couple of different ways to get around this issue for people, maybe even just holding down a key while plugging it in to keep it from mounting the flash portion.
2) With more RAM and the ability have the device mount as a storage device, Profiles & Macros will be stored on a MicroSD card that will be included as part of the base kit. The result is two fold, you'll be able to edit profiles & macros with just a text editor, and you should also be able to take the configuration software with you as well. I don't know if it'll be fast enough to make it worth taking other files, but thats also a possibility.
I really like this idea, but have a few quick questions/comments/concerns about this combo-ing.
1. Concern: How will this look to the system? Will it still look like a HID (Keyboard) or will it look like an USB hybrid storage device? I know the military and some corporations do not allow ppl to plug in usb thumb drives for security reasons. Will this combo lock these users out? I personally don't care because I'm no longer in the military and hook up whatever I want to whatever I want. I'm just pointing it out for consideration for those who may be restricted.
1b. Comment: Hak5 has the USB Rubber ducky; it uses micro SD but it still looks like a standard Keyboard to the system. Maybe the your keyboard can use some of the same technology to get around restrictions?
1c. Comment: What about installing something like a keylogger on the keyboard? I'm not talking about installing anything that will affect any machine for nefarious reasons; I mean a way for the keyboard to keep track of what you (the owner) typed. I know there have been times when I've lost text before, it would be useful to have a copy right on my keyboard. Another use-case: Taking notes with no computer! Just pull out the battery powered keyboard, and start typing. Later, when at home, open up the file and tidy it up. That would really be some zen writing! No keycap legends, No screen, just brain-to-fingers distraction free writing.
2. Comment: I think it would be cool to be able to read/write files to the microSD in the keyboard, maybe even store some portable apps. Love my portable apps.
3. Question: Are you planning on having the microSD externally accessible, or will it be tucked out of the way in the case, i.e. install it when building then forget about it?
One last thing, Awesome Project!
Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.
If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.
Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.
As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)
While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
1: As far as I understand it should show as two devices, but in all honesty I can't say entirely for sure until I've tried. I'll look at a couple of different ways to get around this issue for people, maybe even just holding down a key while plugging it in to keep it from mounting the flash portion.I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting. (This is what the Twiddler does, for what worth that comment is.)
I finished the initial pricing for the new controller last night. Even with the addition of a voltage regulator & microSD slot, it still comes in cheaper than a "$9.00 arduino micro", and thats at 1 lot quantity. At higher lots it becomes even cheaper, because the ARM has lower lot quantities than the Arduino.Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.
If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.
Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.
As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)
While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Why don't you use one single atmega32u4 module??? You don't need to reinvent the wheel ...
There is a lot of "arduino micro" clones out there (ebay, 9 bucks)
To make the uC to see your SD card you will need the uC code in order to be able to read fat, fat32 (dunno which one, don't remember)
But I do remember that it is HUGE! (16k for a uc with 32k is half of it's capacity - so it's huge)
I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting.That assumes there is a key attached to hold down at the time you're programming the controller.
I would suggest the opposite: only showing the flash drive when a specific key (or even any key) is held down while connecting.That assumes there is a key attached to hold down at the time you're programming the controller.
I agree with your point though; I'd prefer not to have a keyboard present a file system by default.
The acrylic is looking so clean and well made, good job mate!Thank you :) I'm currently working on a new revision of the design that should hide all the screws, it just takes a bit more work to manufacture.
Hmm, this could be of interest if you want to use a higher-level language (Mozilla's Rust) on bare-metal ARM: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-July/004841.htmlThanks for the link. I've been looking at a couple different options including mbed, however from what I've seen I should have some luck porting over the existing code from the atmega to the ARM. I've found a couple of good guides for it and have started in on it while I wait for my development board to come in.
Still somewhat in flux though.
AcidFire, amazing job with the keyboard. I can't wait to get my hands on one as it looks like it improves on even the ErgoDox, which I consider the most intelligently designed keyboard for ergonomics on the planet atm, so that is no easy feat. I am incredibly impressed with how quickly you iterate on the designs. I am curious as to what your workflow looks like and what tools you are using go achieve such an amazingly quick turnaround time. Can you talk about that some? Thanks, you rock!
Hallo, i am new here, because i want to register for the beta test, but it doesnt work :-(Thanks for the links to the pointing sticks. I've actually come accross most of those already, the problem is the price. What sources I could find for those, were either expensive, or had a high MOQ, or both. Because I'm sticking with the guideline that Open Source projects should follow a 2.6x markup, and a pointing device costing me $15.00 to ad to a project, not including supporting electronics or development cost, ends up being a $39.00 add on. That being said, I haven't given up on the idea and will keep looking for a source for the parts at a more affordable price.
Here are my thoughts i want to write you in the beta form:
Please, can you make a pdf to printout the keyboard design (maybe with a stripe in the right width between the thumb pad and the other to fold it to the correct hight difference) so one can test if its comfortable for the hands?
You mentioned a mouse stick - a must have idea (the one of my ergo-touch keyboard is useless now because the old driver not works anymore - its to insensitive without it).
You wrote, they are not to buy without entire keyboards attached. Remembering i had seen such sticks on lookin for a new driver, i done some search and found some, but no idea about the prices.
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/components/input/mice/tmpl_parts_fid-828-100-20.html
http://www.hellotrade.com/parex-electronics-computer/gyro-stick.html
http://www.interlinkelectronics.com/products.php
I used wikipedia to find search words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_stick#Naming_and_brands
I once had a maltron but i dont really liked it. I had no idea about cherry switches (black) and how to work with it, so i found the key travel too much. And I dont always type - on surfing/researching/programming i need a lot of shortcuts, which was awkward on the 3D shape. Further i use the neo layout, which puts the shortcuts in unusual places, what makes the entire thing more worse.
I hope i like the nexus better, but wouly like to have the proposed pdf.
Urgently need some one key macros for cut copy, paste, maybe things like strg+shift too. And the neo modifiers for layer 3 and 4 (5/6 are combinations).
I remember anywhere in the thread (yes, i read all pages) anything about shift/capslock - in neo pressing both shift or layer keys simultaneous acts like caps-lock. Very nice, but you need two mods for each layer (i prefer this anyway).
It not really belongs to this thread, but i mention it since i searched very long for such a program (win):
If you use more then one mouse you need different settings (one left, one right - cant understand why there is no way to have prefs for each mouse separate in Win). The logitech driver let me switch the buttons, but there was several other issues with it. Finally i found this little tool which does exactly what i want: http://www.eithermouse.com/
Not only adjusts the mouse buttons but can also adapt the cursor speed.
This looks impressive! Congratulation on the impressive work done so far! I can't wait to join the kickstarter! (I think I would go for cherry clear switches).
As I understand it, you have an easy supply of acrylic, which is why you use this material and its constraints in your design.
I am unfamiliar with the material, but I am wondering if it would be possible to have the thumb pads inclined from the main plane, by having them rest diagonally across a layer thickness? Maybe using a larger hole in the layers above and bellow the big spacer to hold the thumb pcb in these holes?
Looking at the palm rest between the digits and thumb boards:
Is there a way to have layers not have a vertical edge during fabrication, like a knife, chamfered or rounded edge?
Otherwise, would it be possible for the end-user to file/sand away the angles without damaging / breaking the layer?
Also, if you're going to make transparent cases available, I'd be interested in getting the PCB in blue or purple.
Any chance of an update on your schedule?
Keep up the good work and best of luck!
AcidFire, amazing job with the keyboard. I can't wait to get my hands on one as it looks like it improves on even the ErgoDox, which I consider the most intelligently designed keyboard for ergonomics on the planet atm, so that is no easy feat. I am incredibly impressed with how quickly you iterate on the designs. I am curious as to what your workflow looks like and what tools you are using go achieve such an amazingly quick turnaround time. Can you talk about that some? Thanks, you rock!
Hiya. I'm sort of new here, and found your thread recently while looking for an ergonomic keyboard; wrists have been giving me a bit of trouble and it seems like a good idea to head things off at the pass...1) AcidFire has hinted that he's working on an RGB LED controller to accomplish this, but for the beta units, it will probably just be one color.
So, first of all, awesome work (extremely awesome). Favorites are:
- the keystation version with the extra buttons (or space for a trackball, perhaps) in the middle... but I'm constrained to finding something relatively portable
- the V-shaped 70% version... which is just gorgeous, but I think I would like to keep the split halves for tenting and adjustability reasons
- the version wrapped around the laptop, which very well could be the best thing ever.
A couple of questions/suggestions (for split versions mostly, but they sort of apply to anything):
1) If I understand correctly, you are planning on offering LEDs under each key for backlighting/etc. Will it be possible to have the keys change color so that all keys on a particular layer are lit the same color? As in: For layer 0, all keys are backlit white. For layer 1, keys that are unchanged from layer 0 (or unassigned) remain white, layer 1 mappings are changed to red. Layer 2 keys might be blue, but holdovers from layer 0 or unassigned will again remain white, etc.
Granted, the idea is not to be looking at the keyboard, but the monitor does not fill one's entire field of view, and the glow from the keyboard can serve as a cue (especially while learning) for what layer we are on and what features we have access to... this becomes more important when considering options for dynamic changes to the layout based on context information fed back from the computer... I would love to experiment with the keyboard as a sort of I/O device.
2) Is there any chance you could add a scroll wheel to each half (either near the index finger or the thumb, not sure which would be better)? I'd like to use a pair of scroll wheels (in combination with remapping scroll wheel functions based on currently selected layer, and a nearby LED for each wheel) to replace a subset of actions that are usually handled by the mouse and/or the arrow keys. These actions seem to fall into a few categories, roughly delimited as follows:
The first is area/pane selection. A lot of what the mouse ends up doing is clicking within some bound region of the screen; this can be file panes like in an ftp client, subsections of application interfaces, etc. I can see this as a type of action that could be replaced with the cursor controlled by either a scroll wheel (or two, one each for quick jogs in x, y), or a numpad-like arrangement of keys on a separate layer, with sections of the numpad corresponding to screen regions; hitting a key jumps the cursor to the desired region... faster than tab, and then minor adjustments can be made by moving the cursor with the scroll wheel.
The second is within-pane navigation. In some applications the arrows keys or pgup/pgdn/home/end are pretty good for getting around, but in others, they lack both the speed and precision of a scroll wheel. Moving the cursor around with the arrows keys is acceptable sometimes, but kind of a pain most of the time; especially if you are using the cursor or highlighted section of text as a bookmark while referencing something else. This could be set as another scroll wheel layer.
The third is text selection. Like many of you, I spend a lot of time in text editors. Some actions, like shift+home/end or shift+arrows are great for grabbing lines or blocks of text, but they leave something to be desired when navigating and selecting from single lines; too much tapping, and/or waiting for key repeats. Mapping scroll wheels to arrows, and/or shift+arrows on an alternate layer gives a much faster way of moving through text.
The fourth, and last one for the moment, is selecting fields within a document or page. Tab and shift tab are nice, but again, that ends up being a lot of tapping... bind them to scroll, and get around faster...
I think the addition of scroll wheels would eliminate some of the use cases that tend to force a switch to the mouse and break up the mostly-keyboard workflow that I (and probably others) are looking for. They are probably less expensive than trackballs, pointing sticks, or touchpads (and definitely less frustration-inducing than the third option), so they might be worth looking in to...
3) Are you planning to offer tent stands, (ideally with the degree markings that were on the single-unit adjustable angle/tent board) with the split version?
(Random suggestion, though kind of useless to me on account of "too big to travel with:" mount each half inside a partial sphere, then put that into a partial box (three faces, xy, yz, xz) with a spherical mounting, then you have a very adjustable glove thing... doesn't really have a huge advantage over more reasonable ways of adjusting the boards, but it would probably look neat...)
Anyway, keep up the amazing work and best regards!
(I've already signed up for the beta.)
You probably don't want completely (or near completely transparent/clear keycaps). The LEDs will not diffuse and it looks fairly poor.
I have a couple of options to explore with angling the thumb cluster. I could heat & bend the acrylic, but mass production would make this a bit of a nightmare. There's the possibility of doing the thumb as a completely separate piece that could rest on a stand designed to be angled from the main unit, but that means extra cables and I'm not sure how messy it will end up being. However, this is much easier to design for mass production, so its something I'll look at a bit more.
cheaper than 9 bucks? seems an awesome deal man - don't know how you did this magic but if is cheaper for 1 it will be cheaper for more boards.I finished the initial pricing for the new controller last night. Even with the addition of a voltage regulator & microSD slot, it still comes in cheaper than a "$9.00 arduino micro", and thats at 1 lot quantity. At higher lots it becomes even cheaper, because the ARM has lower lot quantities than the Arduino.Don't get me wrong - I don't wanna burst your bubble ...Totally interested! Also super cool that you live so close to me.
If you're going to be loading profiles & macros from a file system, I think it would be a great opportunity to create a web-based layout and macro editor. Loading and exporting text files should be easy enough. I don't have a ton of spare time, but that is something I'd like to contribute.
Funny enough, I'm a web dev and this didn't even occur to me right away lol. But I've since got most of what the site's functionality should be mapped out, should be fun to put together while I'm waiting for the parts for the beta kits to come in when the time comes.
As I previously mentioned, I've been working on a new CPU board:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/arm-in-progress.png)
While the new board is longer, it's also thinner and it also integrates the MicroSD reader. It also tightens up the connector spacing, using smaller 2mm connectors and better spacing.
Why don't you use one single atmega32u4 module??? You don't need to reinvent the wheel ...
There is a lot of "arduino micro" clones out there (ebay, 9 bucks)
To make the uC to see your SD card you will need the uC code in order to be able to read fat, fat32 (dunno which one, don't remember)
But I do remember that it is HUGE! (16k for a uc with 32k is half of it's capacity - so it's huge)
And your right, the file system can take up a fair amount of space, so why wouldn't I choose a cheaper microcontroller with 4 times (atmega32u4: 32kb, ARM: 128kb) the storage space, at a cheaper price no less?
I'd like to start by saying it's a fantastic project - I'm happy AcidFire started this and puts so much effort into it. Thank you very much!!!
I'm very curious to hear what you think about idea of extra, thin keys stuck in-between normal keys which I described here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48615.0 Granted you like this idea, how difficult would it be to incorporate such keys in the Nexus? In one of the earlier posts you asked what we think of getting rid of side buttons; these micro keys could replace side keys increasing ergonomy of the keyboard at the same time. Also, as nice as center keys may seem to work, in practice I find them equally awkward to reach as other "normal" keys placed far from home positions. Trying different keyboards I came to the conclusion that a good key is the one which is nearby home positions and thus reducing the number of keys goes a long way towards increasing keyboard's ergonomy.
Would love to see Nexus using the idea of micro keys...
honestly, I'm not a big fan of small keys like that.
honestly, I'm not a big fan of small keys like that.
What are your objections exactly?
I just plain can't hit 'em. Especially the shift keys. My fingers are too fat LOL.
It's hard to tell, but my wrist is pretty much totally straight.
I just plain can't hit 'em. Especially the shift keys. My fingers are too fat LOL.
Do you refer to specific product using this solution? I'm asking because I'm not aware of any but would like to try it out if you know one. I think the easy of use depends on how it's done. I could image these micro keys being 1-2mm taller than normal ones; this way it wouldn't make it harder to reach for other normal keys and at the same time it should make it fairly easy to firmly actuate them.
I just found this thread the other day, have blasted through it, and feel that I should add my voice to those expressing their admiration of how awesome it seems to be shaping up to be. I'm certainly interested in the possibility of buying in on the beta. I've done some hacking on my Ergodox firmware, so may have something to add on that front.
If we buy the beta kits, will it then be easy enough for us to get the fancy bling backlighting stuff to add when that is ready?
I'd like to start by saying it's a fantastic project - I'm happy AcidFire started this and puts so much effort into it. Thank you very much!!!I'd like to see a visual example as I'm having a hard time picturing it. I wasn't looking to get rid of the side buttons, but to reduce their size to the standard 1u keys.
I'm very curious to hear what you think about idea of extra, thin keys stuck in-between normal keys which I described here - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48615.0 Granted you like this idea, how difficult would it be to incorporate such keys in the Nexus? In one of the earlier posts you asked what we think of getting rid of side buttons; these micro keys could replace side keys increasing ergonomy of the keyboard at the same time. Also, as nice as center keys may seem to work, in practice I find them equally awkward to reach as other "normal" keys placed far from home positions. Trying different keyboards I came to the conclusion that a good key is the one which is nearby home positions and thus reducing the number of keys goes a long way towards increasing keyboard's ergonomy.
Would love to see Nexus using the idea of micro keys...
Hiya. I'm sort of new here, and found your thread recently while looking for an ergonomic keyboard; wrists have been giving me a bit of trouble and it seems like a good idea to head things off at the pass...
So, first of all, awesome work (extremely awesome). Favorites are:
- the keystation version with the extra buttons (or space for a trackball, perhaps) in the middle... but I'm constrained to finding something relatively portable
- the V-shaped 70% version... which is just gorgeous, but I think I would like to keep the split halves for tenting and adjustability reasons
- the version wrapped around the laptop, which very well could be the best thing ever.
A couple of questions/suggestions (for split versions mostly, but they sort of apply to anything):
1) If I understand correctly, you are planning on offering LEDs under each key for backlighting/etc. Will it be possible to have the keys change color so that all keys on a particular layer are lit the same color? As in: For layer 0, all keys are backlit white. For layer 1, keys that are unchanged from layer 0 (or unassigned) remain white, layer 1 mappings are changed to red. Layer 2 keys might be blue, but holdovers from layer 0 or unassigned will again remain white, etc.
Granted, the idea is not to be looking at the keyboard, but the monitor does not fill one's entire field of view, and the glow from the keyboard can serve as a cue (especially while learning) for what layer we are on and what features we have access to... this becomes more important when considering options for dynamic changes to the layout based on context information fed back from the computer... I would love to experiment with the keyboard as a sort of I/O device.
2) Is there any chance you could add a scroll wheel to each half (either near the index finger or the thumb, not sure which would be better)? I'd like to use a pair of scroll wheels (in combination with remapping scroll wheel functions based on currently selected layer, and a nearby LED for each wheel) to replace a subset of actions that are usually handled by the mouse and/or the arrow keys. These actions seem to fall into a few categories, roughly delimited as follows:
The first is area/pane selection. A lot of what the mouse ends up doing is clicking within some bound region of the screen; this can be file panes like in an ftp client, subsections of application interfaces, etc. I can see this as a type of action that could be replaced with the cursor controlled by either a scroll wheel (or two, one each for quick jogs in x, y), or a numpad-like arrangement of keys on a separate layer, with sections of the numpad corresponding to screen regions; hitting a key jumps the cursor to the desired region... faster than tab, and then minor adjustments can be made by moving the cursor with the scroll wheel.
The second is within-pane navigation. In some applications the arrows keys or pgup/pgdn/home/end are pretty good for getting around, but in others, they lack both the speed and precision of a scroll wheel. Moving the cursor around with the arrows keys is acceptable sometimes, but kind of a pain most of the time; especially if you are using the cursor or highlighted section of text as a bookmark while referencing something else. This could be set as another scroll wheel layer.
The third is text selection. Like many of you, I spend a lot of time in text editors. Some actions, like shift+home/end or shift+arrows are great for grabbing lines or blocks of text, but they leave something to be desired when navigating and selecting from single lines; too much tapping, and/or waiting for key repeats. Mapping scroll wheels to arrows, and/or shift+arrows on an alternate layer gives a much faster way of moving through text.
The fourth, and last one for the moment, is selecting fields within a document or page. Tab and shift tab are nice, but again, that ends up being a lot of tapping... bind them to scroll, and get around faster...
I think the addition of scroll wheels would eliminate some of the use cases that tend to force a switch to the mouse and break up the mostly-keyboard workflow that I (and probably others) are looking for. They are probably less expensive than trackballs, pointing sticks, or touchpads (and definitely less frustration-inducing than the third option), so they might be worth looking in to...
3) Are you planning to offer tent stands, (ideally with the degree markings that were on the single-unit adjustable angle/tent board) with the split version?
(Random suggestion, though kind of useless to me on account of "too big to travel with:" mount each half inside a partial sphere, then put that into a partial box (three faces, xy, yz, xz) with a spherical mounting, then you have a very adjustable glove thing... doesn't really have a huge advantage over more reasonable ways of adjusting the boards, but it would probably look neat...)
Anyway, keep up the amazing work and best regards!
(I've already signed up for the beta.)
Speaking of development, I've been relatively quiet this week with updates because I've received all my electronics including my ARM development boards and I've been deep into development mode getting it all working together. I've already been able to get it to recognize as a composite device with HID & MSD, or as a straight HID device which my bios had no issues picking up. I'm currently modifying the existing libraries for the control chips for the arduino to get them to work on the platform, hopefully before the end of the weekend I should have some demo videos done of the new controllers at work.
The campaign is just about ready, I've outlined the first set of rewards, I'm just waiting to get the beta kits done and get input back before I put it online. Unfortunately delays for getting things like PCBs are slowly pushing back my deadlines, but I'm still pushing to try and get the kickstarter running by the end of October. It's all going to come down to how quickly I can get everything developed for it, not being able to work on it full time is definitely hurting my timetables.
What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.
I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.
I hope PayPal doesn't throw a spanner in the works :rolleyes:It shouldn't, since I've gotten my Multiplxd paypal account approved as a business account now, and this would be straight up payment for product.
I can't use paypal :(. It would be ideal if we are able to give the payment using credit/debit cards.
Kickstarter (US) edition use credit cards via amazon (at least it did last year). Paypal is too painful to use for me too.Unfortunately Paypal will probably be the only option to pay for the beta kits, but you should be able to use your credit/debit card for the kickstarter just like any other account. Remember as well that you can pay through paypal without needing an account, there is usually an option to pay without signing into an account, they just don't make it big & flashy.
Agreed. real keyboarders are willing to wait years if necessary.Good to know :D I definitely want to get this right, and for a good price. That means I can't rush it, as much as I'm tempted to.
An interesting tweeet by Carmack (who now works on occulus VR):Technically, I could do this as an option down the road with an add-on board. I can only imagine the kind of attention I could get to something like the kickstarter or the boards in general if I were able to show Carmack a working add-on to give touch feedback from the keys.
If a keyboard had a one bit touch sensor on each key, you could make an effective display and use it in VR.
https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/375328478603653121
Imagine using this keyboard in Virtual Reality.
What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.
I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.
Will you be beta testing only the split, or one of the 70% flavors?
Awesome work, Thanks!
I've been lurking on this thread for a while now, and have to add my voice to the mob of fans: sooo much awesomeness!What I love about my Ergodox is the ability to have so many layers. I could have all the layouts on different layers! What I hate about my Ergodox is never knowing what layer I'm on, so I end up using the default.
I noticed on your 70% you have 10 LEDs, 5 per side. Is the current plan to use those to denote which layer is active? I think having some way to see which layer you are on would be great to include at the base level. I also love backlihgting/color changing LEDs, but that is more "bling" then functional, so I would expect to pay more for that functionality.
I've also got enough layers I sometimes forget which are active, and am trying out a possible solution: an RGB LED. Got it soldered yesterday (a bit of a pain since it's really an SMD part and I hand-soldered it to wires), but haven't got the firmware changes done yet. I'm thinking of using it in something like several axes, with base layers giving different hues while overlays control saturation or something like it. Could of course just be an unworkable idea, but at minimum I've definitely got three very different colors.
Oh, and AcidFire: I've been playing with the TMK firmware this weekend, and the debug channel it has is pretty neat, have you considered adding something like it?
We are like kids in a road trip: "are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
Working on it, learning the ins & outs of the ARM is taking time, but will be well worth it, especially speed wise. I know other input devices I've seen using the same processor family boast some amazingly fast response times, I want to ensure I can offer the same.We are like kids in a road trip: "are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
Haha! I agree.
Everyday I wait for that PM asking for the money...
@AcidFireYes the beta is still open to applications, and is not region limited, as long as you understand that with being in Europe the shipping costs do end up being a bit higher.
Is beta program still open?
Can people from Europe participate?
Don't know if anyone mentioned this before. Using the changeable LED to indicate different layer of the keyboard would be a great idea IMHOAlready on the main set of features to be included by default in the first firmware.
Been gone for a while and just thought I would check in. Can't wait for the beta! Looks like your making great progress! Hope you get the PCBs in soon. Also can't wait to start programming the single color keyboard as I had tons of fun working with my kinesis backlit one. LEDs and hoping you continue working on the RGB add on. :)I've gotten the PCBs for the breakout chips in and assembled. Right now as previously mentioned I'm working on getting the ARM firmware running solidly, while trying to spec out a simple communications protocol to allow control of the LEDs from apps running PC side.
@AcidFireYes the beta is still open to applications, and is not region limited, as long as you understand that with being in Europe the shipping costs do end up being a bit higher.
Is beta program still open?
Can people from Europe participate?
I love how this project has inspired at least 5 people to register on GH so they can join the beta.
I love the look and idea of the ergodox but I don't think I could switch to one. Maybe if someone came out with a single sided one that I could use as a gaming pad...
As Thinplum mentioned, I do all my designs in Illustrator, which are then cut on a 60w Epliog Helix. I don't use anything for a 3D CAD package, I do all the solid geometry in my head, which admittedly doesn't always work quite the way I want. As for the PCBs, everything is done in Altium Designer, which has a bit of a steeper learning curve but I find far more flexible to use than Eagle. I've been testing a couple of different PCB protyping houses to figure out the best ratio between cost & quality, as well as delivery time.Dang, that is even more impressive. You are on a different level, up there with Andrew (bunnie) Huang even. <bow> Hopefully I am on your level some day!
I completely forgot to share something as well. Taking inspiration from another design on the forums (I believe it was the GHpad), I retooled the thumb board with some happy
I completely forgot to share something as well. Taking inspiration from another design on the forums (I believe it was the GHpad), I retooled the thumb board with some happy
are those rotated 90 degrees?
as far as I understand caps doesn't fit well on switches rotated 90 degrees. :/
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.
Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.
Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.
what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.
Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.
what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.
Sounds like a good plan, 3mm thick aluminum plates would be lovely. May as well go all the way and get a full anodized aluminum case with matching anodized countersunk screws. :cool:
I am new... and count me in!Glad to have you aboard. Right now, the prototype cases are designed, the board designs have been updated, and I'm currently working to finish the first edition of the firmware. I may or may not be typing this post on the latest version of the firmware :rolleyes:. Once the firmware is done, I'll be ordering the next spin of the boards, and once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.
I was looking for a new keyboard and came across the ergodox... and a couple of days later I found this thread.
I really like what you did. :thumb:
Separating the thumb cluster from the other part of the keyboard is a good idea and will facilitate further modding, imho. For instance changing distance and angle between the boards to adopt for different hand sizes - I for, one, don't have very long fingers ;)
What's the progress on the project?
-- elllit
Could probably just slap DSA caps on there so rotating it would be no problem.
Are steel/aluminum plate mounts still a possibility? Not sure how layering for the case would work if you had the plates the right thickness so switches could 'snap in'.
what I would most likely do with an aluminum or steel plate is go with 3mm, just like the acrylic, and mill the portion around the keys down to 1.5mm. The acrylic case may end up a bit obsolete as the new tech who just started at work has experience designing injection molded cases and is interested in helping me with it, but it's a bit of wait and see as IM is still more expensive to get spun up than laser cut acrylic.
Sounds like a good plan, 3mm thick aluminum plates would be lovely. May as well go all the way and get a full anodized aluminum case with matching anodized countersunk screws. :cool:
Sounds like an expensive addon :'(
Woa, 300k is a lot of switches, but that's to be expected from Cherry since they are supplying big companies. Maybe you could try to find some suppliers if you intend to go for big numbers while not going for that big a number. You would not get that good of a price, but still maybe get a decent discount. Or maybe contact 7bit, he might be able to help you (or even team up with you). Just giving ideas, but who knows, maybe one could work!I haven't talked to 7bit, but the quotes I've gotten back from other suppliers.... Suck. they leave me no room for mark up, not even enough to make it worth my time just to count them out for kits.
Does that 300k mean of one switch type, or total with all the switch types cherry can offer? Either way that's still quite a high MOQ.I'm not sure, I believe thats just a number for total number of parts ordered from them. I've already emailed the rep I've been talking to asking for clarification. The MOQ is high, but not unattainable. The biggest thing is to have a plan on how to move them at a reasonable rate, which I think I have.
Maybe check around for how many can provide their own switches? Unless you want to offer the board in the long run and not just a single group buy or something.
Just be careful of over extending. I'm hoping to buy plenty of increasingly interesting stuff from you over the next few years...Not at all. The advantages of working where I do includes such advice. I believe in what I'm working on, and I've had such a solid response both here and externally that the switches are one of the few things I'm willing to take an extra risk on, in part because I know I wouldn't have trouble selling them even at a price to recoup my costs. One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.
Please don't think I'm trying to put you off.
Have you looked into sourcing keycaps? Black/blank PBT DSA sets from SP are probably the way to go (maybe with blue deep dishes for the home row :cool:).
Also, this really is shaping up to be a fantastic board (it can't be said enough).
Would you please include some rarer switches as well? I am particularly interested in grey (tactile) switches :|
The people at SP have been amazing
One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.
One of the harder things I've had to deal with, and I've seen be a problem for others, is getting ahold of switches in reasonable lot sizes at what should be lot pricing. I aim to change that, to make it easier for people like myself to worry more about innovation than being able to source parts.
Maybe you can work with WASD Keyboards, Kinesis, Mechanicalkeyboards.com, Originative, or other small companies that sell switches, and sell them portions of your 300k switch order.
Glad to have you aboard. Right now, the prototype cases are designed, the board designs have been updated, and I'm currently working to finish the first edition of the firmware. I may or may not be typing this post on the latest version of the firmware :rolleyes:. Once the firmware is done, I'll be ordering the next spin of the boards, and once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.
I'm working on making the aluminum stuff as affordable as possible. As mentioned before, it'll all come down to volume. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if I mentioned this already but I've spoken with a rep from Cherry who has given me a rough estimate of what kind of numbers I would need to order from them to deal with them on an ongoing basis, but still haven't received a price. I was told I'd be looking at a 300K switch order if I want to deal with them right away and get better pricing, otherwise I'd have to spend 6-12months establishing a baseline number of orders before they'd consider it.
Also, you'll be happy to know I've already intergrated & implimented your peizo, does pretty nice for clicking sounds ;)
I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|
once I get the first set of the new boards assembled and tested, I'll be emailing those people I've selected for the first round of beta.
This sounds great. Is the beta still open for applicants?Unfortunately not at this point, as I've already selected applicants. However since I have other designs I haven't yet shared, there is always a possibility of it opening up down the line.
GASP ... I totally did not expect you would actually act upon my old post. This is AWESOME !Well it was a good suggestion and you weren't the only one to request it either. I've built it with a couple of different sounds to the clicks, and one very similar to the sample I believe you posted is set as the default.
... typed on my piezo-clicky ergodox :-)
The current line-up of switches I'm looking to carry right now:I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|
I'd be most interested in the MX Grey switches as well, even if you decide to carry some for add-on sales. I'm also a tactile switch fan; any of the MX White, MX Clear or MX Green switches would be awesome.
Haha, I check for this email compulsively. Just in case I missed it somehow....I will definitely release the weights for both once I finalize the designs for each. Injection molded as a standard option is looking more and more possible as I now have access to someone who has a fair amount of experience designing cases for manufacture.
Its great to see that you're using a new version of the firmware, and with all of the different ideas you've mentioned for off-shoots I don't think that you'd have any trouble unloading the excess switches. That being said... I know you said that you'd like to, and I really think you ought to gear up to be in this for the long haul. I mentioned to you in my original email that I've been through numerous keyboards because of my hands, and I just don't believe that anything can compare to the way you've designed this. With the right exposure, these may be trying to go out the door faster than you can put them together.
And now there is the possibility of Aluminum? I think reading that for the first time actually made me start drooling a bit. That would be so damn cool!
I do have a request of you, given that possibility: will you do a good weight comparison (ideally to two decimal places, in grams) between the acrylic body and the aluminum body for us and post the photos? Neither keyboard would need to be assembled, since I'm assuming the inside pieces of each would weigh the same...
I also keep checking for the email :-)From my own experience, linear or (my preference) tactile switches make about the same amount of noise as a standard keyboard, provided you aren't bottoming out.
I have been too swamped at work the past month to check my email and little demons have been dancing 'round my head, chanting "you're gonna miss the beta!"
I have been following this thread since July and every time I check back in, I get more impressed with this project.
I have been on a quest for the perfect keyboard since the 90s and this is the best one I have ever seen. My biggest problem is that what is 'perfect' for me changes depending on what I am doing. I love the adjustability of the keyboard. The more I can adjust it, the better.
Right now I am typing on a laptop keyboard and it feels like typing on a trampoline. My old keyboards have all had rubber domes of varying stiffness. I like the quietness of them, but the amount of force involved in pressing them hurts my fingers over time. I often spend 10 or more hours a day at a keyboard and I don't want to have to quit because of my hands.
My current keyboard is a cheapo wireless keyboard with rubber domes, but the keys take almost no pressure to press and they are very quiet. I type at all hours of the night and I have very sensitive hearing, so being quiet is a big factor for me. From what I have seen with mechanical keyboards, making them quiet is a challenge, but there are many things to try.
me & other testers
Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?
Pretty much this, at least for now. With it tightened properly, I break the acrylic before it will actually move. I hesitate to use other mechanisms because then you get locked into things like preset points, which can be especially annoying when your ideal zone lies somewhere between two points.Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?
I imagine with that sort of hinge design, it will stay pretty firmly in place by friction alone
Oooo, some sexy new pictures. I was just thinking the other day if you would be doing a photo update, so thank you very much.Yes, I thought it was getting a bit dry & photoless around here ;)
Roll on the kickstarter, looking Fab! :D
Hello, Geekhack!
I think this is an excellent project and definitely interested in buying one or two units once they become available. :) Excellent work, AcidFire! :thumb:
I read the topic and see that all the questions that interested me had already been asked. But still I would like to clarify some of them. Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.
1. The innermost column on the main keyboard is changed from one 1x and two 1.5x keys to be a column of four 1x keys?
2. The outermost column is still using 1.5x keys?
Is it possible to make the switch mounts of the outermost column in a way that would allow to mount the switch both closer to the pinky (and use 1x caps) and farther (for 1.5x caps). Something similar to what was recently done in the thumb board.
This would allow to change key layout by modifying only one layer of acrylic.
3. What about adding one additional key at the very bottom of the middle-finger column? This will make layout of the last row somewhat similar to what TrulyErgonomic has for arrow keys, which is quite useful in my opinion.
1. Originally yes, however the size & shape of the thumb cluster has forced me to remove the new key while keeping the others at the 1x.Makes sense.
2. If I exclude them from the backlight, yes. The issue isn't with the switch, but rather the holes for the LEDs for the backlighting. Now, if I update the board so that the LEDs point inward (90 rotation), this is entirely possible, and especially with keys that have been etched at the edges could actually be helpful, it ends up being odd looking in the single board solutions. This all in theory, of course and still remains to be tested. Edge etching the keys can also restrict their placement unless the legend is etched into all 4 sides.I see, not worth the time to explore this further, in my opinion.
3. I can see how that would be useful, and I may explore the idea tonight. The only difference I see is that the arrow cluster on a TECK is layed out evenly, while there would be a slight stagger to one side of mine.It's a little hard to tell from the pictures of the prototypes, but it appears that the stagger should be minimal and comfortable enough to use, but only testing will show.
It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14190.jpg)
AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14173.jpg)
Since I've been slaving away on the firmware, I decided to take a bit of a break last night and address the issue of angle and adjustability of the thumb cluster. After a few hours of design & testing, this is where I left off:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2074.JPG)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2075.JPG)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/IMG_2077.JPG)
While it's far from perfect, it's definitely headed in the right direction. The most notable difference for those of you with smaller hands, is that both my girlfriend and the girls in the office have all said that the stretch they felt with the previous design is gone, which should hopefully mean I won't need multiple case sizes. There are a number of design tweaks I currently have planned for tonight that address some problems I've encountered, as well as some general improvements.
Such a sweet design, will be great to get my mitts on one someday.TBH I completely forgot to ask, send me a PM with how many you need and where you need them sent to and I'll see what I can do.AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.
Any luck on this? No big deal if not, I prefer you not be distracted from the main project :)
I must admit I'm preferring the "piano" look of the original, than the newer version with the adjustable thumb area.I think you'd find that the thumb cluster in the default position is almost identical in design to the original, is actually more comfortable, and is more cost effective for me to produce. The Hinges acting as a stand are actually much cheaper than using longer screws/standoffs. As for the wing on the left hand side, I plan to make some adjustments and figure out a better stand to alleviate the need for it, so it'll go back to being a bit smaller.
Nearer the time to release, could we get a couple of photos of the designs with a hand placed on the device for comparison of shape and look ? That would be great, thanks.
Could the new thumb board fit in the older cases while sacrificing the corner 1x key/angle adjustability? I could deal with less flexibility for a more compact board, similar to your original test case here:
Also, that arm for the thumb board looks like it could be used as an adjustable foot for tenting. Would probably work better than the fixed angle brackets from a while back.
For me I'll say which ever design that benefits ergonomic totally works for me. Looking forward to the release.That's what I'm aiming for :D
The hinged thumb cluster design is fantastic! Good work! In my testing of various thumb cluster designs and placements, an angled thumb cluster definitely feels best IMHO. Positioning is fairly important, so it's a good idea to have a broad group of beta testers with different hand sizes and shapes.Seeing your progress was what actually inspired my work! :D I'm hoping to reduce the size with further iterations as well as a design developed with proper molded cases in mind. It may not end up travel size, but I'm hoping to get it close!
Again, very nice work. The size is okay for a "permanent" desktop setup, but too big to be really portable, IMO, but I like really minimalist designs, so there is some bias ;)
The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.
The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.
Yes that's what I am saying... So it is very difficult to incorporate both adjustable angle and adjustable distant.
Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
This looks awesome.. I'll keep a close eye on this.Yup, nothing pisses me off more than to not be able purchase something because the shipping isn't available to Canada. I would hate to do that to someone else.
And will most likely end up buying.. as far as there will be international shipping?
I'm glad you like it :DOh, and since I mentioned a third design:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)
Somehow I overlooked this one before.. I saw the 70% version and was like "if it would just be angled".
Dude.. lost for words here!!
Except maybe: give it to me. NOW!!!!
1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.Exactly!! :)
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge. Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D
Wow! Okay I've just signed up to GH to praise the 70% ergo design. Congratulations man!
As someone who followed TypeMatrix -> TrulyErgonomic -> ErgoDox path recently, 70% ergo seems like a dream.
1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
3. Bluetooth. Obvious.
I'd love a thinkpad style trackpoint there in the middle but let's not get carried away :) Kudos to you.
Have you considered incorporating a IBM red dot pointing sitck kind of thing into the keyboard? It would be certainly most welcomed!
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge. Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D
F keys and a micro usb connector? Yes please.Not yet, I'm still working out a number of things with the basic firmware first. I know I'm slipping past my timeline, unfortunately life, especially the freelance work I'm doing to continue funding this, keep getting in the way.
Any estimate for how close we are to putting up the kickstarter?
She can be quite charming, can't she?Yes, and I feel for anyone who continually suffers at the hands of a terrible keyboard. It was feedback from her, my girlfriend and a couple of the girls in the office that prompted me to look for a better solution for the sizing.
F keys? Sweetness! This could end up very interesting.I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.
Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge. Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster :D
I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.
My take on the thumb clusters:
(Attachment Link)
I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.
I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.
I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.
ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.
I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.Both of you make sense, and this is why I'm happy with my modular design. Just because I'm designing a larger cluster on the thumbs, doesn't mean it can't be switched for something smaller (and fairly easily as well.) Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.
This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..
We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.
The Yellow gap in the picture is where the thumb would naturally fall, without extension to cross the gap into the "current" thumb key system.
I highlighted in the enclosed picture what I'm talking about..
The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers
My take on the thumb clusters:
(Attachment Link)
I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.
I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.
I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.
ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.
I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.
This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..
We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.
[snip]
The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers
I've been playing SWtOR with my ergo board and am using all the keys of the left hand except the Layer and Shift buttons so far (and Esc). I'll start to map the function layer buttons next for targeting, but all my important abilities are keymapped and very quick (including heals, playing a Consular Sage with Kinetics build) :)
I have 6 keys instantly accessible (left, right, forward, quick heal, jump and select next target) and 11 more just one key away from the home positions (the other abilities I need to be fast). Using the function layer I gain access to another 15 bindable keys which are good for anything that doesn't have to be lightning-quick. The third layer which contains all the function keys on the left hand (Layer+Shift) is just as accessible (since pressing both buttons is as easy as pressing one with the thumb cluster design).
I have character screen, map, quest log and inventory mapped to the edit cluster under the alpha keys, although I'll probably change the quest log key to companion skills screen.
I never have to look at the keyboard or move my hand from the home position. FOR ME, it's way better for gaming than a "normal" board, even in MMO's with a lot of keybinds. Takes a bit of effort to learn, but becomes intuitive very quickly. Also means I don't need a crazy mouse with 100 buttons, so I can rather choose something for ergonomics and performance than number of buttons.
Three thumb buttons is probably enough for most, but I use 4 so I can get all the modifier combinations without weird contortions or using the little finger for mods.
If I got a Nexus, I'd set up the thumb clusters just like my current board with 4xsingle caps and angle the thumb cluster to suit me. The great thing is that this is completely feasible and within the design! I love it. I think this will be a VERY popular board and people will customise it to their taste :D
Good job so far, really looking forward to this getting to the Group Buy / Kickstarter / commercial product stage!
While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle. I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward. Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle. If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder.
I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad. I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk. Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand. My keyboard is 10-keyless. What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard. If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement. Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand. It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way.
Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse! Now I'm just talking crazy talk.
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster. More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.
Screw Ergodox, Im getting this
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.
Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.
I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?
Can't wait for this to finalize!
I've actually experienced this from the other direction, particularly with mice. Most are too small to be comfortable for me when held "correctly".
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster. More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out. I dropped the layouts into AutoCAD and have been printing and trying them out with spare keycaps and some sticky tack. For my little hands (with their long-ago torn thumb tendons), the thumb spread is just too far out. I found I need to have the "space bar" equivalent thumb key located right under the B key (qwerty) on the left hand, and N on the right, with like 2mm spacing between corner of the thumb key and the B or N key. This sort of interferes with the bottom row of the main key matrix, though. Still playing with it. I like some of Kurplop's experiments going on with his keyboard layouts. I know AcidFire has indicated that the dropped thumb cluster and now the angled down thumb cluster really make it an easier reach, but I may be a statistical outlier as far as this goes. We'll see.The thing I'm proud of right now with the new design of the PCBs is that if the clusters don't suit your hands, you still have the ability to make custom clusters and use the control electronics, following some very simple guidelines. When all the project files are released, I'll also be posting a guide to designing your own clusters.
Great thing about this project is that the thumb cluster is re-position-able and now... hinged!
I also feel like I needed more column stagger, so I'm gonna try the raw Key64 layout with the increased stagger to the columns. My fingers are very different in length and my pinky is really short, so we'll see where that goes. I may end up with a complete home-made version of this to suit my needs, but hey, that is what this site is all about. Sharing ideas.
Excited to see this project come to fruition. Keep up the great work, Acidfire.
Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster. More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out.
In response to this, I just have to say that I DISagree. I want all 6 keys, if not more, per thumb. Space bar & enter (right), backspace & tab (left), and then control, meta, alt, layer1, layer2 for EACH thumb.
But I do wholeheartedly agree that the ED thumb cluster is too far out and awkward. My take on the physical layout of the thumb keys is the first image in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46015.msg966802#msg966802
Given how excited my girlfriend is about this project, if I were to release something that was too big for her I would never hear the end of it :D This is the other major factor that's slowed me down a bit, because in order to really bring the thumb clusters in close, acrylic just won't cut it and so something injection molded will give me something that'll let the thumb cluster move right in against the body. And yes, the new controller design will definitely let me reduce costs for a board with the smaller thumb clusters.Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.
I am so on board for smaller clusters. Also really glad to hear you're running designs past people with smaller hands. It's the one thing I've always found prohibitively difficult when it comes to more ergonomic designs on pretty much any input device. It's like the people that make them have ape-hands and it never occurs to them that there are others out there who don't?
Can't wait for this to finalize!
Unfortunately I think I should have been more clear when I had posted the keystation, while the module I was using is around the size is the same as a 10-key pad, I more envision them as macro keys/custom bindings that aren't used as much. Personally, I would love the 10-key on my left hand side, either as a layer or external module, since that is actually how I use my 10-key right now, shifting my left hand over when I have lots of numbers to enter. I think I'll include a layer with the default set that has the 10-key setup on the left hand side ;)While I am here and sharing thoughts on this project, I wanted to comment on the Keystation idea, specifically the idea of having the 10-key pad in the middle. I have personally tried the 10-key located between the split halves of my Kinesis Freestyle, and I have to say that using a 10-key pad in this position feels very awkward. Although access to the keypad with both hands is a great idea on paper (I like to have left hand access to the keypad when using CAD or sometimes spreadsheets), it ends up at an awkward angle to either hand when located in the middle. If you have trained your fingers to touch-type numbers on the pad, having your hand and arm approach the keypad at a 45 degree angle across your body is murder.
I'm still torn about what to actually DO with the 10-key pad. I love using it for numerical input, but hate having it on my desk. Right now I have a detached num-pad sitting right above (closer to the screen) my mouse pad so I can reach it with my right hand. My keyboard is 10-keyless. What I really need to do is truly train my left hand for num-pad input, but BOY is that hard. If you think about it, even for right handers, having the num-pad on the left is the logical placement. Keep that mouse close in, keep the right hand on the mouse, and input numbers with the left hand. It sounds logical, at least, until you try to get work done that way.
Now that I am thinking about it, what might make sense for me (the guy who doesn't want his right hand to move off the mouse) is to set up the 10-key layer on the LEFT hand of the split-ergo, and set up a layer-switch modifier key on the mouse! Now I'm just talking crazy talk.
I agree that the 10key in the middle may SEEM like a good idea, but that it is not. I think the best option is a "layer switch" key you hold down or toggle with the left hand, that turns the home row and the three keys above and below (JKL, UIO and M,.) into the 10key. The right-hand "space bar" key in the thumb cluster is the 0. I set this up on my ergodox and have been using it for a few days, and it feels great. :)
I have ape hands, and I can assure you that ergonomic keyboards were not made with me in mind. ;D Few things in this world were made with me in mind.I definitely feel your pain on that one, as I have largish fingers myself. So far I've been enjoying both the DCS and DSA profiles, and I'm happy that I'll be offering both options.
My fingertips are as big as the keys, so unless I hit the keys dead on I hit two or more at once. Flat keytops are not my friends. Neither are condensed or "mini" boards. I feel like King Kong when I use those.
My wife has tiny hands, so I can appreciate the other side of the spectrum. It's not easy being outside the norm.
I love the adjustable cluster idea.
I plan on putting backspace and escape on the cluster so my time with vi will be much easier. My pinkies have gotten pretty strong from all that flexing over the years, but they are still the first to wear out.
The biggest thing that kept me from pulling the trigger on the third round of massdrop/ergodox was the tenting problem (the thumb button placement was the other).I'm currently working on lining up the financing outside of a kickstarter campaign to meet Cherry's MOQ, as I'd really like to be able to offer sets to the community at a price that is both profitable for me but much more affordable and easier to get ahold of, like reds & greens, for the community (looking to hit 0.50-0.60/switch at less than 100 switches). If that doesn't happen, I'll definitely be talking to 7bit about future orders.
This project solves both, in a beautiful way. Kudos on a very nice piece of design and engineering!
No more ergodox for me; I've also cancelled my orders for Honeywell/ERGO spherical keys on Deskthority.
AcidFire, for reference, if you haven't done so already, do check out the GB on Deskthority for ongoing MX cherries and please do say hi to 7bit if you haven't already, for as someone else mentioned, maybe you can join up with 7bit on future mass purchases to meet Cherries' MOQ:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html)
FWIW, when you go into production, I will likely have to order a tented board and that 70% board from you (MX Reds). The RGB LEDs look great: I'll wait in line for those.
Also WAY INTO THE FUTURE (maybe version 2 or 3), if you design a module that can actually take LCD buttons (even if the switch is not mechanical), maybe in the form of a numpad-size module, I would definitely go for that. I'm talking about something found in Razer's Deathstalker Ultimate (I like those 10 buttons - don't care much about the RGB LCD display). To be honest, I'm not sure I even know what that hardware looks like underneath.
(Attachment Link)
I looked into buying that board just so I can have programmable key-faces (for specialized applications, I want keys that will change depending on some real-time metrics), but their SDK is closed source and requires the purchase of Visual Studio Pro for $600 - no thanks!
EDIT: fwiw, the crazy version of that type of keyboard (and the inspiration) comes from Art Lebedev - I think this one, the Optimus Popularis, goes for USD1000+ :
(Attachment Link)
TL;DR
I will be eagerly checking this thread daily, awaiting your kickstarter announcement for version 1.0!
AcidFire, have you thought about a module that interfaces the keyboard with a small LCD display? The use case here that I have in mind is to display information relevant to the current keyboard state, such as the current layer in use, potentially enabling alias'ing the layers with more meaningful indicators such as naming a layer based on being designed for a unique context.This is definitely something I'm looking into, for the exact reason you mentioned. I already know the module can be dropped into the loop without an issue, the only thing i have to look into is what type of LCD/OLED display I want to use, and how much I can get them for.
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.
MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.
It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.
AcidFire: I know we talked about RGB option but did you see the just announced MX RGB. It looks like they have a surface mount RGB on each switch.
MOTHER OF GOD. Looks like they're going to be hard to get ahold of if they're exclusive to Corsair boards :( The other problem would be the same as current LEDs, with the light only reaching one side. The design I have allows for complete coverage of a key, albeit at a slightly higher cost I'm sure.
It's also interesting to note that they neglect to mention the Green, White & clear switches.
I know I almost lost it. I'm guessing the transparency will help the color stand out better. I agree your solution look like it will be lots better but these look awesome too. I guessing the Corsair exclusive is a just to allow them to ramp up production (I'm sure money was involved too. I am so freaking excited about this though because it means more support for RGB keys
There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.
Then, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.
Not a god, just very determined ;)There is still some pricing I need to do, but even at the extreme, it's looking quite possible to do an RGB addon kit for roughly $65.00 :D This would be the version that has 4 LEDs per switch acting as a single light, and can be installed in a kit that's already been assembled in about 5 minutes. So while Corsair/Cherry can boast 16.7 million colors, my kit will push 68.7 billion.
You are a god :O
Quote from: AcidFireThen, while discussing this with Commie, I had a bit of an epiphany. The LEDs are used in each switch, and could very easily be scanned when the board starts up, allowing it to auto discover its layouts on the fly without need of a weird addressing scheme.
Whoah, whoah, whoah. What? Are you talking about probing the LEDs/Diodes for row/columns on boot up? That's absolutely insane. And absolutely genius.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)
Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)
Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.
How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:
Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.
Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!
In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!
I'm mainly anxious to get hacking on the software.Merry crimbo to AcidFire and everyone else eagerly waiting on this divine piece of kit.
Merry Christmas from Australia! There must be geeks all over the world dying waiting for this keyboard. I know I am!!
Pretty much this. This was a bit time intensive, but was fun to work on over an afternoon. I will say though, that unless your doing a different layout, the PCBs are still the way to go in terms of time efficiency, especially since the boards won't cost a lot and I do plan to make completely bare boards available for those who want to truely build from scratch.Well, If you're making one board for yourself it is the way to go, but if you're going to make lots, not so.How viable is it to make a board like this with no PCB? Seems really awesome and cheap :thumb:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14185.jpg)
Installing diodes made it super simple to connect my columns. The best part is, it takes minimal effort to remove the hot glue & solder, so when I do finally get PCBs made it won't take me long to recover my keys for the new board.
I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?I'm currently using standard LEDs that are connected to NXP PCA9685 12-bit 16 Channel i2c LED controllers. These allow the LEDs to produce 4096 color per channel, instead of 256, or 68,719,476,736 colors as opposed to 16,777,216 (8-bit.)
I try to look at the situation in a positive light.No pressure! I've heard this from a number of people and its very encouraging to know that there are people eagerly awaiting what I'm working on. With what I've seen so far with my numbers, I don't think it's going to break the bank either.
Because this design looks so good, it has actually put a HALT to my keyboard spending: I'm reluctant to spend more money because I know something better (this project) will come to fruition, eventually!
So the situation is actually saving me money.
Of course, once released, I can't guarantee that I won't go broke spending money on all these yummy modules...
AcidFire, will there be room in the layout for a few F-keys? I got an ErgoDox kit recently and ended up using most of the thumb-clusters for F-keys (F1 through F6), but this is less than ideal due to being split between two hands. I don't need all 12, but room for F1-F4 in one block or F1-F8 in one/two blocks would be awesome!Currently, there are two different solutions to this request that are part of the current revision.
In any case, really looking forward to what you come up with, especially the compact (travel) variant!
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Awesome project.I'm currently looking at three accessories/addons that sit at the thumbs.
The addition of assignable scroll wheels on both sides would make this project my perfect keyboard. If you don't do it, there's a good chance that I'll try to add them to mine when I buy it. I've always wanted a keyboard with a scrollwheel. When I'm surfing, the arrows are too slow, pgup/down is too jumpy, so it's back over to the mouse for the scrollwheel all the time.
Acidfire, I just hope that you're not spreading yourself too thin with all these features and options. Please don't be offended by this, I'm just very keen to see this come to fruition - KISSASS Keep it simple stupid and ship something! I totally understand that you don't want to limit yourself by underdesigning the initial offering though.
Keep up the good work! It looks awesome.
I'm curious, what controllers do the rgb leds that you're using have?I'm currently using standard LEDs that are connected to NXP PCA9685 12-bit 16 Channel i2c LED controllers. These allow the LEDs to produce 4096 color per channel, instead of 256, or 68,719,476,736 colors as opposed to 16,777,216 (8-bit.)
For the single color backlights, the LEDs are connected to NXP PCA9674 8 Channel & PCA9675 16 Channel 8-bit i2c LED controllers.
Both of these chips have a couple of distinct advantages, chief among them being an internal PWM clock, meaning they don't need to be constantly updated like the TLC5940. Basically that means they're set & forget, which is very processor friendly.
I'm currently looking at three accessories/addons that sit at the thumbs.
1) Scroll Wheels - The code/electronics for this are actually quite simple, mechanically however it's a bit more of a pain as the wheels need to be sourced, mounting worked out, etc which all needs to be set up within an enclosure that would allow an end user to add it to their set up.
2) Jog Wheels - A horizontal version of the scroll wheels with a high precision, the problem mostly comes with how much space a wheel needs. I do however see this + the RGB backlight being quite useful to editors.
3) Mouse/Trackball/Trackpoint - This is the most requested option that currently isn't being included in the base project, mainly due to cost & sourcing (mouse actions will be supported in software however.) I think this may also provide a viable alternative to the scroll wheel, since it should be possible to map the mouse to the scroll functions.
As for KISSASS, this is something that has been guiding the project from the start. The only major revisions/feature changes that have been made are those core to the functionality of the project. I have a long list of additions and features that can be added due to the open nature of the firmware & modularity of the hardware.
I've also nearly completed the new versions of the PCBs, including the seperate control PCBs for the keys & backlight. This also includes the new thumb clusters which can be customized in a number of different configurations. This does present a problem with doing RGB backlight plates unfortunately, so most likely the plates that will be released will be voted on which layouts to do first.
As I mentioned previously I've managed to reduce the cost of the RGB addon significantly, and am currently in the design stage of the PCB layout for these boards. While they most likely won't go in with the next batch of board designs, I intend to get them in within the next 30 days so that they can be made a part of the kickstarter campaign.
Excellent stuff, I hope people are helping you with the ARM programming. I would if I could but I'm pretty new to mucking around with Arduino, and my Teensy v3.1 is still in the mail!I have a sneaking suspicion that the prevalence of ARM in embedded projects, especially hobby projects is going to lead to more people knowing the ARM instruction set than Power or Intel in the future, plus IDA Pro works with it now, which is awesome.
I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.
I know a number of you are anxious to help me beta test and we're definitely close to that mark. As previously mentioned, testers will only be paying for the cost of materials for their kits. While most of what would be included should be considered production ready parts, the final case will not be, partially since the final design will be based on their feedback. Instead, 3D printed and hand finished (sanded) cases will be sent for testing, with the final case being made available when ready at cost.
Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).
Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).
The 70% is just another configuration for the main board if I recall correctly, not much more than a different case and a couple different connectors on the inside.
I'm sure a few of you will be excited to see that I've included (and completed) the add on that would allow for an extra row of function keys, including the LED backlight. To the left of that is the new LED Indicator module. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it reversible, hence the through hole pad for the LEDs. I'm not sure if that will pan out yet, it'll all depend on whether the components end up in the way and whether SMD RGB LEDs end up being cheap enough in both purchase and assembly to warrant having two seperate boards. Currently, the pricing is looking at around 20-30.00 for the F keys module (less without the switches) & roughly 15.00 for the indicator modules (pair.)
It's great to see function keys come back. I would have missed them.
Any chance you could add another column of keys for the index fingers? I'd like to get as many useful keys as I can near the thumbs and index fingers, since they're the strongest. I was sad to see the innermost column reduced to three keys in order to make more room for the thumb cluster, though having useful thumb keys is more important than index finger keys. Still, another column of index finger keys would really help make up for the loss. I need lots of modifier keys for emacs, preferably enough so that each hand has Shift, Control, Meta, Alt, Super, Hyper, and Command, all in reasonable locations for the thumbs or index fingers, along with all the common punctuation chars like tab, return, backspace, etc. My thumb clusters are looking to be pretty crowded, and index finger keys are the next best choice, and where I'll probably end up putting Tab, Return, and so on if I can get enough index finger keys for them. I'd like to completely stop using my pinkies for modifier keys, which most keyboards force me to do.
AcidFire,I wish I could! The latest revision is in various stages of design, from the completion of the new PCBs to the case which I've had several offers of help with, there isn't much to see at this point. I will however be cutting some new test plates tonight to show how the modularity with the f-keys and the extra column will work, but that won't be in a full case. I can take pics of that if you like.
I know you've been working your butt off on many technical aspects, but could you throw some keyboard p0rn our way so we can see what your latest design is, in terms of ergonomics?
I remember seeing a post earlier of your S.O. buying you an amazing photo setup - perhaps you can throw a snapshot or two of your latest renditions our way?
TIA!
I check this thread every day hoping for more pictures of this amazing project.
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?Is the 70% still on track? Or did it get put on the back burner? (I'd go back and read, but holy hell this thread gets a lot of updates).
The 70% is just another configuration for the main board if I recall correctly, not much more than a different case and a couple different connectors on the inside.
Exactly this. I'm currently working on the version of the main clusters that would allow them to connect to a board in the middle without needing another controller. While there is still a bit more routing that needs to be done, I thought I'd share my current progress:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/boardside05.png)
I'm sure a few of you will be excited to see that I've included (and completed) the add on that would allow for an extra row of function keys, including the LED backlight. To the left of that is the new LED Indicator module. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it reversible, hence the through hole pad for the LEDs. I'm not sure if that will pan out yet, it'll all depend on whether the components end up in the way and whether SMD RGB LEDs end up being cheap enough in both purchase and assembly to warrant having two seperate boards. Currently, the pricing is looking at around 20-30.00 for the F keys module (less without the switches) & roughly 15.00 for the indicator modules (pair.)
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?
* 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.
What is the use of a SD slot on a keyboard?* 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.
Keylogger. ;) j/k
Config files.
Quick question about keycaps for the present version of this board.
If I were to order an ergodox-compatible set of spherical doubleshots from 7-bit's Round 5, would it be sufficient to fit onto the current version of this board?
It should. The spacing is identical to the ergodox, the only difference has been the shift in the columns. I'm currently using off the shelf keycaps from Signature Plastics in all my testing. The only thing of note is that my board has a few more keys than an ergodox, so you might want to keep that in mind when you order.
For a standard ergodox set as a reference, (76 keys total or 38 keys a side):
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5#HONEY.2FERGO.2FRED.2FWHITE_.28ErgoDox_red_white_kit_.7C_.2455.29)
What would be the sizes/labels/positions on the extra keys?
It would be great to prepare a full set of quality keycaps for the board - adds to the anticipation!
Currently, the layout includes:
Split:
- 6x 2u keys
- 10x 1.5u keys
- 66x 1u keys
Total: 82 keys
Ergo & Straight:
- 16x 1.5u keys
- 62x 1u keys
Total: 78 keys
However, more keys are available via the addon modules, so that needs to be kept in mind.
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D
Hey!
AcidFire regarding pointing devises I found out about these:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835
When I was lurking trough Input Nirvanas signature kinesis thread and assorted cross-linked treads.
I've actually got both sitting on my desk, and I haven't really enjoyed either of them tbh. I'm lucky because through the company I work for I can get these sorts of things below retail, which has let me try a couple of different options without breaking the bank. I'm still hard pressed to find a solution I enjoy more than the nub mouse.Hey!
AcidFire regarding pointing devises I found out about these:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9320
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835
When I was lurking trough Input Nirvanas signature kinesis thread and assorted cross-linked treads.
That blackberry trackball thing looks good, pity it's out of stock.
Edit: actually doing a google search for "blackberry trackballer" came up with some places that have it in stock. Interesting.
Edit2: after reading some reviews on the quality of the blackberry trackball, I'm now less enthusiastic about this controller.
The maker faire sounds like a good break. Hope it works out.This is something I've been reminding myself of. My current target is to get the electronics and the case done, since writing firmware isn't going to do much good if it isn't providing the comfort and strain relief that are the core goals of this project. If I can get it done as well, all the better.
Don't forget that it doesn't have to be finished to your very high standards in order to show off the product...
I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.
I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.
I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.
The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.
I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.
I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.
I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.
The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
Looks like good progress acidfire! On a related note did you see the rgb corsair demos at CES? Really makes me want to grab this upgrade on your board even more. I am excited that corsair is making them fully addressable and providing an API to write your own code.
As usually let me know when your ready for both the standard and the 70% board rgb upgrade or not. Just got my latest tube amp built so I'm ready to get back to soldering!
The Kinesis sound is much quieter than the browns. I like it
On that trackpoint board that you linked, do you know where one would source the actual joystick part for it similar in size to the IBM/Lenovo ones? I am wanting to put a couple in a custom board I am working on but would prefer to not have to harvest existing keyboards to do so, so that would be grand if I could find it.I prefer trackpoints still, but the older trackpads were a lot less useful than the multi-touch ones made by Apple or Logitech, which are the only decent ones made and worth mentioning IMO. I prefer trackballs to either, but they are not easily implemented in a keyboard regrettably.I'd be more interested in something like clicky scroll wheels to use as left/right and up/down arrow keys. Never liked trackpoint mice much.
I've also never been that impressed with using trackpoints myself but after reading the comments at http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/05/touchpad-vs-trackpoint.html) comparing touchpads and trackpoints, it sounds to me like people who give the trackpoint a bit of time to get used to end up liking them better. There wasn't much mention of trackballs there though.
I personally hate touchpads. Too much lifting of your finger to get across the whole screen, then if you turn the speed up, they're not accurate enough.
The article could be dated as it is from 2006, although the comments go up until 2011.
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)Looks like good progress acidfire! On a related note did you see the rgb corsair demos at CES? Really makes me want to grab this upgrade on your board even more. I am excited that corsair is making them fully addressable and providing an API to write your own code.
As usually let me know when your ready for both the standard and the 70% board rgb upgrade or not. Just got my latest tube amp built so I'm ready to get back to soldering!
I did! It's very frustrating to see that the clear key switches that are designed to fit an RGB LED are exclusive to Corsair, but then again that would mean you'd have to completely replace your setup in a configuration like mine, so I feel a bit better knowing that mine should work quite nicely as an addon for those that want it.
On the development side, I've taken a bit of a step back to ensure that the boards are done and will work 100%, and instead of working from schematics on paper and in my head, I'm building them properly in Altium before designing the new boards. This has been massively beneficial in a couple of ways, including coming across a different way of setting up the controllers that drops $12 cost/$30 retail from the price :D I've also changed the pattern for the key switches a bit, which potentially allows for a surface mount, bottom entry header below the key switch, allowing you to change your LEDs/Diodes without needing a soldering iron :thumb:.
The only thing I'm currently debating on is the inclusion of the buzzer on the default model. Because of the new change of the controller, there wouldn't be 1 included in a kit there would be 4, one for each controller board. If I source them right now from one of the bigger distributors, they potentially add $9 - $13 to the retail price. Just like the RGB LEDs I was looking at, this is unacceptable, and so I have a couple of quote requests out to chinese suppliers, if the pricing comes back at 0.50 or lower per unit, their inclusion will have a minimal impact on the cost and you'll be able to make your keyboard sing to you :D
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)
Sorry, excuse my ignorance, but what's "the KS"?
to be honest, I am not sure if a track ball is needed since chances are, the keyboard is going to out live it.
I am also not sure if it's necessary, can't we just designate one layer of the keyboard mapping and make it function as mouse up down left right per key?
Either trackpoint or trackball, I'm definitely still looking at making it happen. It may just end up being a stretch goal on the KS ;)
Sorry guys, I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear, the $80-100 estimation is a kit with no key caps or switches. Unfortunately the key caps & switches, even in volume add roughly $120 to the price tag after mark up (and that's with making certain assumptions about the volume prices of the switches.) I'm going to be calling the reps from SP & Cherry directly to see what kind of volume I need to get the price a bit lower, but I'm determined to keep the base kits under $200 (225-250 preassembled.)
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)
(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)
there seems to be one too many chips on that board, might it be that this keyboard has bluetooth capability? if so, where should i throw my handful of cash? :)
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)
(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)
I realized last night it's been awhile since I've really shown anything new, so I thought I'd share a little teaser of whats coming:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/controller-render.png)
(The silver disk the size of a quarter, for reference)Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/straight-render.png)
Lovely looking board, but I thought the thumbswitches were supposed to be lower than the rest of the board, like on the grand piano?
I know you might be too far along to change it, but I'm wondering why you didn't give it a bit of a tilt inwards on each hand, like that nice 70% board you made? Here's a pic of something that I've been working on, I find that my hands are happiest at about this angle with my ergodox:
(Attachment Link)
I really wish you could make the keyboard detachable in the middle...now then it would truly be the perfect keyboard.
Well I'm glad to hear that....because even if it's design is ergonomic by default being detachable in the middle would really offer the best I could ever imagine in terms of ergonomy....and I really like having my hands extending in an "outwards fashion"(I don't know if that makes any sense...English is not my native language) ..I don't like being constricted.I completely agree, and it's one of the reasons this project started in the first place. I'm currently working on a design that merges the split & ergonomic designs, with the ability to completely split them as well. Laser cut acrylic was going to make that a complete pain, but moving to injection molding I think will sort the issues I was having out.
Did you scrap using either a trackpoint mouse or trackball in the keyboard? The trackpoint would be immensely valuable, especially if there was one on both sides of the keyboard. That would make available somewhere between 10-18 bindable keys (10 if just cardinal plus down button, 18 if diagonals also) keys per layer that are easily accessible. I would use those for things like window and app management that I like to access frequently and quickly but not waste a short chord on.Yes, but it's still low on the priority list currently. It's looking more and more like I'd have to go with a trackball, which will require some custom parts. Unfortunately, I'm still not solid enough with solidworks (ha!) to design that sort of thing, but I'm working with a mechanical engineer who is.
Sorry guys, I just want to make sure it's absolutely clear, the $80-100 estimation is a kit with no key caps or switches. Unfortunately the key caps & switches even in volume add roughly $120 to the price tag after mark up (and that's with making certain assumptions about the volume prices of the switches.) I'm going to be calling the reps from SP & Cherry directly to see what kind of volume I need to get the price a bit lower, but I'm determined to keep the base kits under $200 (225-250 preassembled.)
I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.
I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.
I like update-to-date news as any here, but I'm quite content that AcidFire spends his valuable time working on the project rather than deal with trivialities such as this.
If you don't want to read the entire thread, you can either check the last few pages or wait for his final announcement (or new thread) for the finished project.
Or be a stalker like me and go to http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423) to see all his posts.
Will there be any love for ISO users?It's something I'll have to look into as I'm not totally familar with the ISO layout (or why the slots would be needed), but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either. Because it's a modular board (including the plate), doing a custom layout/change is always in the card, the only concern is ensuring it fits in the casing.
I love the ergo dox but what prevents me from buying it is that I wouldn't be able to install 2 keys where they should be, and the Nexus' layouts seems to go the same route :(
Do you think you could make 2 slots here to counter this?
(http://tof.canardpc.com/preview/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg) (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/d4da0af7-b186-4d57-9450-5d235c189005.jpg)
Funny enough, I do that too :P Right now I just don't have enough time to cull everything and bring it into the first post, but when I get back from Seattle I will definitely take the time to shift everything around into an easier to find format. I'll also be putting up a proper webpage detailing current progress/features etc. as well before I go, so that might be a better spot for that info.I think the op should update the op post with all these development pictures and progress status instead of having them spread across thousands of post.
I like update-to-date news as any here, but I'm quite content that AcidFire spends his valuable time working on the project rather than deal with trivialities such as this.
If you don't want to read the entire thread, you can either check the last few pages or wait for his final announcement (or new thread) for the finished project.
Or be a stalker like me and go to http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=28423) to see all his posts.
It's something I'll have to look into as I'm not totally familar with the ISO layout (or why the slots would be needed), but I wouldn't rule out the possibility either. Because it's a modular board (including the plate), doing a custom layout/change is always in the card, the only concern is ensuring it fits in the casing.
The shape and size of the return and shift keys don't matter here, but on an AZERTY (French) layout the additional key is '<' (and '>'), which is a pain to those HTML developers who want to use an ANSI keyboard. On a BEPO layout (the French Dvorak) it is 'ê', which can also be formed using a combination of keys (alt gr + 6 + e) but it defeats the purpose of having diacritical characters handy - which are very common in several European countries.
E.g: Not tonight honey, I have a headache : Pas ce soir chérie, j'ai mal à la tête.
All I know is, once this board is done, I will definitely configure a hhkb-like layout and post it to AcidFire's site for others to use...That sort of thing is already achievable with software like AutoHotkey, KeyRemap4Macbook, or xmodmap, xinit, and xcape, probably some others that I have forgotten. It's what I use to double up keys, which is fantastic, especially for large programs that have a lot of bindings.
I'm also looking forward to playing around with other possibilities like double-tap CTRL for caps-lock, etc - should be fun.
All I know is, once this board is done, I will definitely configure a hhkb-like layout and post it to AcidFire's site for others to use...That sort of thing is already achievable with software like AutoHotkey, KeyRemap4Macbook, or xmodmap, xinit, and xcape, probably some others that I have forgotten. It's what I use to double up keys, which is fantastic, especially for large programs that have a lot of bindings.
I'm also looking forward to playing around with other possibilities like double-tap CTRL for caps-lock, etc - should be fun.
I am definitely looking forward to a successful conclusion of this project. :thumb:
I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.
I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50
AFAIK, you typically are only limited by the hardware/standards...
This is true, the character itself isn't mapped, just the scan code. However, Where a character code would normally require something like Shift+2, the mapping on the board can be set so that is still a single keypress and it does the combo for you (macros basically).AFAIK, you typically are only limited by the hardware/standards...
Which, as I understand it, is a problem: they way a keyboard communicates with a computer using the standard USB HID standard (or for that matter, PS/2) is to report the scan codes of the keys which have been pressed or released — so, for example, a keyboard can report that "shift" was pressed, "2" pressed, then "2" released (actually, the scan codes for "shift" and "2" not the key mapping) — but depending on keyboard layout shift+2 may mean " or may mean @ (or maybe something else).
Working higher up the chain with whatever software the OS uses to map scan codes to characters doesn't have this problem, and additionally allows characters not usually found on keyboards (€, —, →, ∋, α, ζ, ≥, ß, ... : a small sample of what is on my keyboard).
While this sort of thing is definitely managable with software, I'm happy that the board will support this sort of thing on board, especially since it will not only allow it to be layer specific but also not require software for those situations where you can't install something (gov/school/military etc.)Good idea, but I hate how limited this ends up (e.g. alternative bindings for things like @, *, (, { require simulating pressing shift — and they still won't work right for many people because a lot of non-US layouts move these characters around). May still be the best option for many people though.I also rely heavily on a numeric keypad. Will there be a matching, equally programmable keypad to go with it? Or is there an existing project that covers that base?I use the right side of my ErgoDox as a a numpad, and it works great (also means I can get F-keys on the Ergo). Have a look here (you'll need key binding software): https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D
Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/BDY14440.jpg)Show Image(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6axgxYPry1robh3ho1_250.gif)
So some interesting news this morning. A friend of mine who is sponsoring the Seattle Mini Maker Faire has offered me space in his rather large booth to show off a couple of working prototypes. The goal is to have everything done by March 17th so that I have time to have everything shipped down ahead of me. That leaves me with 47 days to finish the electronics, get the firmware running, and get a case designed and 3D printed. Thankfully, I should have help with all these things, so those of you in the Seattle area should come down to the Seattle Mini Maker Faire on the weekend of March 22nd and see all my hard work :D
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately. I am so stoked for this.
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately. I am so stoked for this.
link????
I saw him, he's real! Very friendly too :)
And he's rocking a sweet new logo and name -- something about some big company (moogle? foogle?) had some other product named Nexus... Really looking forward to his next update!
Acidfire has been posting some epic pictures on his facebook lately. I am so stoked for this.
The Axios is an Open Source ergonomic keyboard featuring modular components and a design to better match the hand’s natural resting position reducing strain in both the wrists and fingers. The Axios is user programmable as well, allowing a near infinite number of layouts to be stored on the board itself and requiring no special drivers. It’s modular nature allows for a wide degree of adjustability and customization giving the user more control over their comfort and laser etched backlit keys let the user make it their own.
I will check and see if he is cool sharing his facebook, but here is one of the pics.
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys
Nothing about injection-molded cases yet then.
It's great to see that it went well! :thumb:
I do have a question though. You had mentioned moving to TECK style arrow keys, but the bottom row where the arrow keys (or function keys) doesn't seem to be in a plus or inverted-T layout. Is that the final layout? Can I request a plus or inverted-T layout for those keys?
Thanks, and looks good!
Hopefully Axios is enough different from Axiom that it could survive a trademark challenge. I'm no expert in that area, but I think one letter difference may not be enough. What if you went with something like Aksios, or Maxios, or Mechos, or Mekos? (Modular Ergonomic Keyboards Open Source)
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys
there were also these varieties on the table.
Hmm, I though the board with both sides stuck together was going to have all the keys rotated not just the thumb keys
there were also these varieties on the table.
Is it weird I want to find a way to put a trackball mouse in between the keys?
Who said that isn't in the cards? ;)
Ok....would it be feasible to buy the DCS keycaps from the Toxic group buy to pimp out my Nexus (sorry, Axios!), and if so, which sets would I need? Any major cons to trying to do this? I have two QFR keyboards, so I have cherry mx keyboards to use at least some of the keys in the meantime and I just fricken LOVE the color scheme!
Toxic Group Buy: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55644.0
UPDATE: Read through some older posts on the thread. AcidFire, are you still planning to offer back-lit keycaps? If that's the case, I'd use those over the Toxic keycaps, and just get a set for my QFR.
I can't remember if I've asked this before, and it probably wouldn't be relevant if there is not going to be an aluminum case option, but what do you think of having an ESD circuit to protect the USB? I ask because, well, I've had some trouble with my ergodox in this area :(I do have plans to do limited runs of aluminum cases, but they'll be a secondary/premium offer as I haven't looked to see how the new designs will need to change to accommodate that.
… there is a strong possibility that you'll be able to order a custom etched set (using a template file) …
So these are based on Teensy like the ergodox?
… there is a strong possibility that you'll be able to order a custom etched set (using a template file) …
I've been leaning strongly towards using a modified version of Programmer Dvorak with one of these. So you're saying that I would be able to order keycaps with exactly the right labels to match that custom layout? Awesome!
Are custom fonts (as outlines) and colors possible?
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.this sounds like you're just planning a dsa type, everything-is-the-same-profile, kinda key. i got my dox with dsas from the first massdrop run, and i tend to feel that a more profiled set would feel nicer with the otherwise flat board. also, on my kinesis, 1 of the thumb keys on each cluster have a flat top, whilst the other is angled, which i think helps to locate your thumbs to the home position in the same way as homing bumps do. just things to think about in a cost vs value stylee.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
Hello AcidFire.Absolutely the firmware will be open source. While time-based keys aren't currently high on my list of priorities for the firmware, I'm not going to rule them out either once the rest of the major functionality is finished and polished up. For me, it's not just as simple as adding it to the firmware, as the functionality would need to be added to the desktop configuration software as well. That isn't going to stop (nor would I want it to) the intrepid hackers who are planning to mod the source anyways, so I'm sure if I can't get to it right away someone else will.
Will this keyboard/firmware support time-based keys: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/37 ?
The firmware will be open source?
Right now I'm looking at both DSA & DCS profiles. The DCS may start as all row 3 or 4, simply to keep costs down, however if funding provides I'll definitely go with a fully contoured set.Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.this sounds like you're just planning a dsa type, everything-is-the-same-profile, kinda key. i got my dox with dsas from the first massdrop run, and i tend to feel that a more profiled set would feel nicer with the otherwise flat board. also, on my kinesis, 1 of the thumb keys on each cluster have a flat top, whilst the other is angled, which i think helps to locate your thumbs to the home position in the same way as homing bumps do. just things to think about in a cost vs value stylee.
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
Hello AcidFire.Absolutely the firmware will be open source. While time-based keys aren't currently high on my list of priorities for the firmware, I'm not going to rule them out either once the rest of the major functionality is finished and polished up. For me, it's not just as simple as adding it to the firmware, as the functionality would need to be added to the desktop configuration software as well. That isn't going to stop (nor would I want it to) the intrepid hackers who are planning to mod the source anyways, so I'm sure if I can't get to it right away someone else will.
Will this keyboard/firmware support time-based keys: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/37 ?
The firmware will be open source?
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
I agree waiting is painful (in my case, also literally, thanks to my crummy hands) but it will be worth it, so I'm waiting for the Axios. The angled thumb cluster alone will make it ergonomically superior to the Ergodox in terms of supporting a more neutral hand (thumb) position. Unless you have large hands, the thumb clusters on the Ergodox are difficult to comfortably access according to user accounts. Awkward thumb clusters seem to rather defeat the purpose/benefits of having them. I originally almost got an ErgoDox when MassDrop was having a buy that included an assembly option, but passed; while it IS a superior design compared to what's currently out there, I have small hands even for a woman, so there's no way it would have worked for me. :( YMMV, but just my two cents!
P.S. If you go with the Axios and it's going to be your main board, you also might want to pass on buying keycaps for a bit, since AcidFire is apparently working on something awesome. ;)
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
i see MD doing another dox drop........ but i really like where the axios is heading...... with MD dox taking several months to ship, should I wait for axios?? anyone else facing this decision?
I shouldnt worry, prob going to waiting in my keycaps for few months anyway. But want all the things now!
The Ergodox is off the table for me for a bunch of reasons. They're flat (tented is better), the Axios thumb cluster placement is far superior, AcidFire is planning real arrow/page key clusters, and the Ergodox doesn't have real F-keys which I need. (AcidFire mentioned having appropriate case space for them, though I didn't see them in the Maker Fair pictures.)
I was using a Microsoft Natural up until a month ago when I couldn't take it any more. Now I'm using a TECK, which will be able to keep me happy until the Axios is ready.
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike. The other upshot of this cost, in two parts.I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?
1) I'm now only ordering two key types instead of three, increasing the number of 1.5x and bringing down their cost with higher volume.
2) This move eliminates the need for stabs that while not expensive, still helps to reduce the cost of the unit (and is also one less part to source)
I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.
I never understood the point of multiple rows for the thumb clusters. On the ErgoDox I can reach the two big 2x1 keys fine and the two 1x1 side keys okay (mapped as up/down and pg up/down), but I just can't reach the top 1x1 keys. I'm happy with that, but maybe your design is better?I think this came about via designing on paper and paying attention to mechanical constraints and past precedent but not ever actually trying the design out on real three-dimensional moving hands, or at least not doing nearly enough of that. This seems to be a common problem with keyboard designs from the mid 19th century to the present, so the Ergodox is hardly unique here; frankly this is also a problem with the designs I’ve seen AcidFire make in this thread.
A few people have tried to make more radical improvements. The Japanese had the Tron project and the M-system in the 80s. The Maltron keyboard is pretty fantastic for being from the 1970s. The Apple Adjustable keyboard, followed by the IBM M15, and the Cherry G80-5000, etc. were fairly solid attempts to make ergonomic boards which were easy to use, not intimidating for non-experts, and which didn’t require too much training. The μTRON keyboard is great: if only it weren’t absurdly expensive and designed for tiny Japanese hands.
For programmability, and as a community project, the Ergodox project is a great success. As an ergonomic design, I find it uninspiring. (And this Nexus/Axios/whatever looks to be fairly similar on both fronts.)
Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.
* * *
Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.
I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.
Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)
Not derailing this thread at all, considering a large number of us are programmers/developers I think it's a very valid concern to address & discuss.F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.
not wanting to derail this thread but you CAN have dedicated F keys on the ergodox see this layout i use
see http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/Glod_ErgoDox_Layout_March_2014.png
i also wanted to have f keys instead of FN+#, plus it makes the layout keycap friendly
not saying there are not things wrong with the ergodox, i have been interested in this project since the beginning, just the last two arguments about the tenting and f keys on the ergodox is false, you can tent the ergodox and have dedicated f keys.
And this was before I had even begun to look seriously at the electronics. Eventually I decided that the thumb cluster wasn't quite right for a couple of reasons;Well this is kind of what I mean, and why I say that someone designing a new keyboard should spend some time studying hand anatomy and talking to ergonomics experts. (I’m also not an anatomist or ergonomist or expert: I’ve read some books aimed at laymen and I’ve spent a bunch of time closely inspecting my hand motions, but someone who is e.g. a skilled musical instrument teacher, or a physical therapist, or a professional ergonomics researcher, or a surgeon, etc., will surely have more insight than I do.)
1) Your thumb curls inward, not down. It would be pointless to do all the work adjusting for the fingers if the thumb wasn't moving in the optimum motion either, hence the dropped angle not only putting it at a natural resting position but also allowing it to curl in.
2) Adjustability, both for hand size and positioning. This has allowed someone with tiny hands to rest as naturally on the board as my own sizable mitts.Adjustability is great! Ideally every position and angle could be adjusted, as well as keycap sizes, key spacing, etc. Figuring out just what can be reasonably adjusted and which problems that solves for which hands is pretty tricky. Hopefully the adjustment is both easy and sufficient to match a big range of hands.
On both the ergodox, the little and index columns didn't sit at enough of a height difference I found, and it took a bit of tweaking to find a height that was more comfortable not only to me, but others as well.Agreed. I find that if the index finger and ring finger keys are level, then the middle finger can use about half a key of stagger, upwards, and the pinky can use at least half a key of stagger, downward. But note, on a standard keyboard, often the best finger to use for a key is not the same as the one advocated by typing teachers / learning materials. As a result, many people have non-standard ways of moving their hands and type keys with other than the recommended fingers. Sometimes people even use different hands to type the 6, Y, or B keys (in QWERTY) depending on which word is being typed. When moving to a matrix or column stagger layout instead, those inconsistencies are going to require a few weeks of getting used to the new layout (maybe sped up by some clever custom character mapping). Even on a column staggered board though, it may not always be ideal to use a separate finger for all the keys in each column (e.g. the pinkies are not going to be easily able to reach up to a number row, so those keys are probably going to be pressed by the ring finger anyway.), which may have some bearing on how much stagger is ideal, depending on how many rows and columns of keys are included.
i suppose i have fairly large hands, so in the case of the ergodox i find it odd to hear people complain about the stretch to the first thumb key being a bit too far. on both my dox & kinesis i home my thumbs on the second thumb key quite comfortably - it just seemed like the obvious place for my thumbs to go so i have other keys to either side, rather than a big stretch over a key.
Figuring out the proper height and direction for the thumb to move though, such that (a) the motion takes as little effort as possible using the biggest muscles and aligning with the movement as closely as possible,
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.
Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)
Before anyone designs a new keyboard layout, with ergonomics as a goal, they should start by doing their homework: actually studying past designs, learning about human hand anatomy, reading the ergonomics literature, talking to professional scholars in the field, and making dozens of prototypes and then testing them on people with various hand shapes. Unfortunately, doing this work is hard, so basically no one does it.
* * *
Edit: I’m not just trying to be a ****. I think there’s a lot of great ideas here: modularity, open hackable ARM firmware, a few of the specific design elements, several of the hardware decisions, current goals w/r/t pricing (I bet this is harder than it initially seems though), etc.
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.
I'd much rather use a modifier and number keys than have to move my whole hand to get to a function key row. Also I personally find it hard to touchtype function keys when they are so far from the home row. And even worse when they have a different spacing to the rest of the keyboard. I defy anyone to successfully touchtype all the function keys without looking when they are in a layout like the Truly Ergonomic.
Apparently most people didn't get my point: setting the primary action of the top row to be F-keys works great on the Dox. I can half-way touch-type these, and also, I can finally touch-type numbers by turning the right side into a num-pad when holding a modifier with the thumb. I would recommend it for programmers and other Axios users wanting F-keys, the only problem is how to get the symbols normally on the number keys (my solution (https://github.com/dhardy/keyboard/blob/master/cyborg16#L50)).
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)
Had you by any chance announced the list of beta testers yet?I haven't yet as I'm currently making some decisions on what I'll be releasing for the beta, which affects the people selected for it. Once I know, you guys will.
One can dream :D I do have a design thats semi workable right now that while needing tweaking should work nicely for those switches.Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)
If we just had RGB theirs no need to mess with different colors. We can have them ALL! :) :0) :) :) :)
May I ask prototype array Source Code or Gerber File?Unfortunately the current design files have some functionality issues and I haven't finished the latest revision :(
I wanna make that protype myself cuz can't wait the final product :(
Plz sir AcidFire could u provide me a prototype source or gerber? pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas :((
Awesome stuff. A lot of what you're doing and contemplating is similar to what we're doing with our first keyboard.io model, but different enough that I suspect we'll be appealing to slightly different bits of the market.Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there :D
I'd love to compare notes some time.
-jesse
Absolutely. A lot of your earlier hand wired prototypes are what inspired me to look at rolling my own solution rather than stick with the existing designs like the edox. I'll be down in San Mateo for the Bay Area maker faire in may, maybe we can catch up there :D
One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread. :)
As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.
As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.
Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it. Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).
I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome
It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.
I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.
One of the things we're playing with is a custom logic board & standardized footprint & header placement optimized for building open keyboards. But this stuff probably belongs in its own thread. :)
That's a great idea, would make it much easier to combine open stuff together. Maybe just a pin header, something like an ICSP header?
F-keys on the ErgoDox work fine: make what would be the number keys f-keys (in two blocks of six). Use a modifier key to turn the right half into a numpad for the numbers.
It's that whole fn+ to do a function key that's a problem. It can be fine by itself, though not quite as good as simply tapping one when you need it, but when you start layering on modifiers it get out of hand really darn quick. Part of the whole point of them is quick single key hits instead of complicated combinations.Didn't like the TECK personally: too few thumb keys and the halves not angled enough.
Yeah, I agree with those complaints. It's a compromise to give me the lighter mechanical switches with at least some ergonomics to carry me to the completion of the Axios. And it has real F-keys. ;)
Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion. The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use. I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay. The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard. For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse. The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible. That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application.
Have to admit as a CAD user and gamer that the F-keys are a must, in my opinion. The Fn+ to get to the function key layer may be workable with practice, though, at least for CAD use. I too have gone with a TECK for the time being since I got a great deal used on eBay. The F-keys are in no-way touch-typeable on the TECK, but at least they are all on the keyboard. For CAD and for gaming, the idea is to do as much as possible with only the left hand on the keyboard and keeping the right hand on the mouse. The ergonomic decisions here are definitely different than for you programmers who try to keep both hands on the keyboard most of the time and use the mouse as little as possible. That is also an ergonomic way of working, it is just a different application.
Have you thought about one of those MMO mice with a million thumb buttons as Fkeys?
(Attachment Link)
Have a Logitech G700, which is OK. Haven't tried the g600 or the other similar ones with lots of buttons. I think I'd have a hard time using all those thumb buttons. I have found that the sidemounted thumb buttons tend to make the mouse move when pressed, and that annoys the crap out of me. Also, my thumb tends to rest behind the center of the buttons (closer to me) and it is hard for me to hit them all without moving my hand on the mouse. I do use the 3 top left buttons on the G700 quite a bit, though. More easily reachable index finger buttons on a mouse would be great. Have thought about that as a project as well.
As I mentioned, I've been working towards something that balances ergonomics & cost. It's possible its just the Canadian socialist in me, but I'm tired of anything regarding my health being expensive. I'd be very much interested to hear what it is that stands out for you on the design that seems like it needs to be tweaked or is uninspiring.
Well, does your health has a cost? You are designing a comfort. It should be as comfortable as your budget allows it. Its going to be expensive cause very few people will venture into getting the project (unless you make a massive sale and the prices go as low as possible, for like 1000 units).
I love the ergodox project, however, is not as ergonomic as the Kinesis Advantage. PERIOD. The kinesis is far from perfect, but as you said, the curve on the keypad is just an outstanding feature that really follows ergonomics. I totally agree with you on the thumb buttons, the alternative would be something like this, but with lateral buttons. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly-a-computer-mouse-full-of-awesome
It's your project and everyone will try to suggest ideas. All the rest, can't wait to get our hands on whatever you end up designing. And we will support the project because it is just looking good, and you show you care about ergonomics.
I personally would pay $500 bucks for a better ergonomic keyboard. My hands and pain are worth it.
Without giving too much away at this point, the bowled design is not out of the question. However there is much more to get right (and to have to do custom) and a good amount of funding is required for that, hence getting this first stuff out.
Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down.
As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!
I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.
Hey Acidfire, love your work. I think your modular mindset is the way to go, as you will never be able to please everyone with one board. I don't even think you should try. My personal favorite is the ergodox'ish tented design with the thumb cluster tilted down.
As I understand it, both the thumb cluster and the main cluster can be removed/interchanged, correct? Comparing router.exe's photo (reply #1119) with your photo (reply #1121), it looks like you took half of the flat keyboard and stuck it into the tented one. If so, that's sweet!
I've been using the Ergodox for awhile now, and I love it, but I'm using it flat. I'd rather have it tented, with the thumb cluster down, much like your design. I think this is as good as it gets for a "mass produced" design.
Here's an assenter for him.
totally agree with his idea. no need to satisfact whole people, but it need to be more evolved.
more function keys with tilting thumb cluster keyboard? how much it is? I'll buy 3 of 'em give me that.
acidfire, have you thought about getting a simple screen on there instead of just some old school leds?
the typical plank has caps-lock (marginally useful), num-lock (does anyone ever want this turned off) and scroll lock (so arcane that i dunno why they even bothered to include it in the usb keyboard spec). With my dox i currently have 3 main layers to switch between as a base (colemak osx, colemak windows, and stupid mode (qwerty windows)) then I have momentary layer for numpad/f-keys/media-keys and another for coding-symbols/handy-vim-cursor-when-in-colemak and a cunning multipress momentary layer for admin mode to change the base layer or reprogram the teensy. even with hacking the source code to use the leds for sommat more useful they're still woefully inadequate - having it flashing morse code to tell me the different active layers just aint good enough ;)
last saturday was international arduino day, and at my local hackspace i got a bunch of bits and some workshop tutorial action. getting a bit more advanced than what i did there, it seems that a shift register will let you control at least a 16x2 character lcd with just 3 pins. and the dox has 3 pins dedicated to its leds. dunno what your circuits are looking like, but that seems like fate to me ;)
Getting away from super serious business for a second, been having fun figuring out what I'm doing with the new keys I ordered from SP today:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/keyboard/layouts/keyset-oj-bk-gy-wh.png)
ooooooooh :) that sound extra cool. my limited delve into such things hasn't taken me into e-ink land, so i didn't even think of that as an option....screens n stuff......e-ink display option...
2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.
As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).
2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.
SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).
Is the beta going to happen before this time?
Thanks for the update!
As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).Would be an awesome birthday present! ;)
2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.
SO I'm confused as to which switches you will be using, or are you saying you won't be providing ANY switches until you hit the amount needed for them? Or are you saying that there is something different about the minimums for greens, reds and browns than other choices like blue, blacks, clears, etc and you will be offering the later switches?As for a timeline, I'm currently targeting to launch the Crowd Supply campaign on May 16th (unless something comes up before then).
Is the beta going to happen before this time?
Thanks for the update!
Basically, what that means is that I'll be offering the boards with blues, clears & blacks to start. When I have enough funding that I could add browns, reds and greens to the line up you better believe I will.
The plan right now is still to run the beta first before sending out the production units. That means you'll get the prototype injection molded cases for testing, and based on beta feedback they'll either be released for a full production run or tweaked, retested and then released for full production.
I like blues and browns personally but I am amazed that the browns aren't a smaller buy in. Clearly looking at most large manufacture keyboards they must be shipping a crap ton of both blues and browns. Cherry probably has piles of browns like Scrooge McDuck's money tower. They wouldn't even notice if you dived in and swiped some. :)I think Cherry actually has trouble keeping up with demand, and e.g. Razer switching to Kaihua MX clones is partly caused just by difficulty sourcing Cherry MX switches. If you talk to, e.g., the MassDrop people, sourcing switches for Ergodox buys &c. is a real pain in the butt (and causes delays).
Hasn't Matias done switch development recently? Like the Quiet Click switches in their Laptop Pro mechanical keyboard (which are an evolution of ALPS of course).Sure, Matias has done some tweaking of the Alps design (their quiet-click switches are sort of a combination of the simplified Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKBM_White) made by Alps and then Fuhua which Matias was using in their original Tactile Pro keyboards, and the dampened Alps switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCM_Cream_Damped) that used to ship in SGI and Apple keyboards 20 years ago), and they’ve done an impressive job working with their manufacturing partners on setting up the tooling and supply chain, tweaking the tactile leaves and springs and plastic pieces so they’re reliable and effective, and getting switches produced with good QC, etc.
http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/
2) As much as I'd love to, the minimums for Greens, Reds & Browns would tack on up to $65K to the base funding goal. I'll be watching the total for switches as the campaign is being funded, and the second I hit the numbers I need I'll be adding them. This includes the bags of switches I was originally hoping to offer as a pledge level, as well as a few other pledges I'm keeping close to my chest for now.
So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?
Just asking.
So then given the hassles with Cherry MX, is it feasible to consider Matias instead AcidFire?
Just asking.
Obviously AcidFire will probably have his own opinion, but here's my take.
The ALPS switches have a different pin configuration than the MX switches. That means a different circuit board would be needed. Supposedly, the pins are close enough to a mirror image that the board could simply be turned over, but I have my doubts about how well that would work.
IMHO, I think AcidFire should have an option for ALPS/Matias switches… in version 2. I think it's better to get a version shipping with just MX switches first, and add options such as ALPS compatible switches later rather than delaying things any further.
I must confess, I'm personally surprised and disappointed that the first available switches are all the higher actuation ones, given the fact that this is supposed to be an ergonomic keyboard. Cherry MX Browns are popular because of the low actuation force required (helpful if your hand function is impaired, as mine is), there's that nice tactile bump that's useful for touch typing to avoid bottoming out (which can be fatiguing), plus they are quiet enough to be used in office/shared computing environments. This is why they are the most popularly used (Cherry) switch by manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards. Cherry MX blues are the lowest actuating switches you're offering, and they are among the worst (if not the worst) to try to use in a shared office environment (be that at work or home).
Browns are also just a good all around option for people who want something that's pleasant for both gaming and typing. Yes, I know, that aspect is considered by many to be strictly user preference, but it IS the general consensus when you read guides on Cherry MX switches, and in my own experiences, it has certainly proven to be the case.
I am the exact opposite of you as far as key choice. I detest browns; they feel "dirty" to me, like a defective mechanical component. I also love the blue sound. I'm in the older crowd, so I'm used to the sound--I'll even run programs that give me a "fake" click sound when typing on my MacBook's keyboard. I also like the blues because I'll tap my fingers lightly on the keyboard while thinking (another reason to look at greens). Lighter activation wouldn't work for me.
Having said all that, I love this project and want to see it succeed. If not having browns is a no-go for you I would be willing to solder browns for you free of charge (you provide board and switches.)
He did say it would be a stretch goal. And it's not his fault. He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground. The lower actuation switches are more expensive. It's unfortunate, but it happens. I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs. Let's look at this positively. He's very close to starting his crowd funding. As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can. I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset. It won't be that way forever. As long as he gets the support he'll need.
He did say it would be a stretch goal. And it's not his fault. He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground. The lower actuation switches are more expensive. It's unfortunate, but it happens. I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs. Let's look at this positively. He's very close to starting his crowd funding. As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can. I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset. It won't be that way forever. As long as he gets the support he'll need.
Ummm...I didn't say AcidFire was at "fault" for anything. That appears to be coming straight from you. It's AcidFire's project, he can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us are just happy he's willing to share. I simply expressed my personal disappointment as a severe RSI sufferer, and tried to back it up objectively, because in the past, AcidFire has been very welcoming of feedback. As a more typical "end user" type, and as a female with RSI injuries, I sometimes offer a different perspective from the more typical "hard core" keyboard hacker/collector/enthusiast with strong "man hands." Different perspectives are good - they can sometimes provide a more complete picture.
That doesn't mean I expect him to change anything for little old me (you'll note, I didn't actually ASK him to), nor am I disappointed in HIM, or with the project in general. I'm just disappointed. And that's OK. I've never gotten a pony either, and yet somehow I've survived. And frankly, the pony thing is a MUCH bigger deal.
All the best, AcidFire!
AcidFire has mentioned that he is designing the switch mounting plates so that the switches can be opened without having to remove them. That means you can swap out springs without doing any kind of soldering.
That also means that due to how MX switches are designed, you could replace the stem and spring from the installed switch with the stem and spring of a different switch and the result will be that donor switch. The upper and lower case of the switches are exactly the same.
I don't dislike blues at all, I simply suffer from arthritis, thumbs that dislocate, and nerve damage. I originally bought a QFR with blues, but after a few months I switched to a QFS with browns. It's simply less fatiguing for me to type on, feels better when gaming (I play WoW), and it's less disruptive given I share a small home office with my husband. I've thought of trying reds, but I like having a tactile bump, plus my fingers can be twitchy and I'd likely make accidental keystrokes. Perhaps it's because I have smaller hands than the average woman, but I also sometimes tap my fingers on the keys, and never make accidental key presses on the browns.
I'm actually in the "older crowd" too. :) When I started working in IT, it was supporting Apple IIe and IBM PS/2 computers - I always loved those IBM keyboards! My hands are probably such a mess because I've used computer keyboards heavily since the 80s, plus I used to love to draw, embroider/cross stitch, knit and make jewelry. I reluctantly gave up my other hobbies, but they'll pry my computer keyboard from my cold dead hands!
Brilliant! I can make a Frankenswitch! I just might be able to make something perfect for me. I don't know what I need yet, but the first things I will try are lowering the activation force and reducing the distance to activation.You should look into the “jailhouse blue” mod. Your goals sound similar to what Leslieann was able to hack together http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38091.30
He did say it would be a stretch goal. And it's not his fault. He has to consider costs in order to get the project off the ground. The lower actuation switches are more expensive. It's unfortunate, but it happens. I'm sure I don't have to say this, but if we want access to those lower actuation switches (or the other form factors for that matter), we should look at broadcasting AcidFire's project as loud and as far as we can to make sure he gets the funding he needs. Let's look at this positively. He's very close to starting his crowd funding. As a community, let's focus on what we can do to make it successful, whether it be participating financially or getting the word out to people who can. I'm excited for the board, even if the selection will be limited at the onset. It won't be that way forever. As long as he gets the support he'll need.
Ummm...I didn't say AcidFire was at "fault" for anything. That appears to be coming straight from you. It's AcidFire's project, he can do whatever he wants, and the rest of us are just happy he's willing to share. I simply expressed my personal disappointment as a severe RSI sufferer, and tried to back it up objectively, because in the past, AcidFire has been very welcoming of feedback. As a more typical "end user" type, and as a female with RSI injuries, I sometimes offer a different perspective from the more typical "hard core" keyboard hacker/collector/enthusiast with strong "man hands." Different perspectives are good - they can sometimes provide a more complete picture.
That doesn't mean I expect him to change anything for little old me (you'll note, I didn't actually ASK him to), nor am I disappointed in HIM, or with the project in general. I'm just disappointed. And that's OK. I've never gotten a pony either, and yet somehow I've survived. And frankly, the pony thing is a MUCH bigger deal.
All the best, AcidFire!
So I'll correct myself, Blues, Reds and Browns will be the initial offering. There will be a stretch goal for Blacks, Clears, Greens…
So I'll correct myself, Blues, Reds and Browns will be the initial offering. There will be a stretch goal for Blacks, Clears, Greens…
Ah, the joys of such a project. When you make one person happy, you disappoint another. :(
I'll just have to find a way to ensure that stretch goal is hit. ;D
Apologies for a very ignorant question: is is possible (and how hard would it be) to change switches say from brown to blue on the board?
Which switch color were you looking for Moto?
You can buy clear switches (as well as grey switches which I personally look forward to) from mechanicalkeyboards.com
**** i figured that was common knowledge. That was the only place i was able to find switches besides digikey.
**** i figured that was common knowledge. That was the only place i was able to find switches besides digikey.
Mouser also has them. But in quantities of 100, they're still almost twice the price that mechanicalkeyboards is showing.
Apologies for a very ignorant question: is is possible (and how hard would it be) to change switches say from brown to blue on the board?
Easiest way: Order it with blues in the first place. ;)
Cherry MX switches can be opened from the top if the plate they're mounted in has the appropriate cutouts. AcidFire's design does have those cutouts.
Here's a thread showing how to open switches and swap springs out: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749.0#post_Guide
If you also swap the slider, you wind up with that kind of switch the slider came from. (Replace brown slider with blue, you now have a blue switch.)
Here's a good photo essay on how to make a binder clip tool for opening switches. (If you can read the language, you're better than me. :)) ) http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/3520312
There's also an interest check thread on custom made switch opening tools. Hopefully it'll graduate to a group buy soon! http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54168.0
These boards won't be available for the Crowd Supply campaign, but the capacity to add them will be there.
If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.
You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.
Also, since it was asked and I forgot to answer, I'm still looking at offering ALPs/Matias versions as well once the Cherry MX versions are up and doing well. Because the controller is a daughter board, it's relatively simple to add these options down the road.
It's nice that Cherry MX switches have the optionTechnically the Alps/Matias should, since it's basically just a spring swap. How accessible they'll be after being mounted I'm not entirely sure, I'll find out when I can get some ordered.
-- if certain criteria are met -- of being easily opened,
with no soldering, to have their actuation force changed
(by changing/modifying their springs &/or slider-stems).
There's been some mention of switches other than Cherry MX...
Do any of the other switches have easy (no soldering needed)
adjustable actuation force? Or is Cherry MX the only one with that?
Yes, the base set will be compatible and made from a translucent PC/PBT, even if you don't install or use the backlight.These boards won't be available for the Crowd Supply campaign, but the capacity to add them will be there.Will the keycaps you offer for the initial sale be compatible with backlighting? (Will material will be glow-through?) If not, do you plan to offer such keycaps for sale later or would you rather just recommend a compatible set from a third party?
True. On the other side, I've always believed that a project/company/whatever that doesn't involve the people it's meant for is doomed for failure. The iPhone I think is a perfect example. Apple keeps giving people what they think they want, instead of listening and as a result they're losing users to platforms that do, like Android based devices.If you try to please everyone here, you'll end up pleasing no one. The hard part is knowing what well meaning advice to ignore, or at least to give less weight to.I told him that in July or August. Not pointing fingers though, haha.
You have your own design in mind, I'd say see that one through, and if enough people demand some changes, then build another model for them.
I can't hardly WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!!!Should be coming soon :D Trust me, no one wants these boards out into the world more than I do. Still aiming to get the Crowd Supply campaign up on May 16th, and the faster we hit the funding goal the sooner I can get them out. Crowd Supply releases the initial funds as soon as the goal is reached, instead of waiting for the end like Kickstarter & Indiegogo.
Sir Acidfire, when do u expect the manufacturing day?
I'm ready to assemble any keyboards but still waiting.. :'( :'( :'(
I wonder if you could share with us the cad file at the end of project?Yes, once the backer rewards have all been fulfilled the CAD, Altium, and other design files will be shared, as well as the firmware & desktop/mobile config apps.
Looking at the numbers, aside from the shipping it would be cheaper to just swap out the keyset modules. Even cheaper if you sell off the cherry mx modules to another user.Also, since it was asked and I forgot to answer, I'm still looking at offering ALPs/Matias versions as well once the Cherry MX versions are up and doing well. Because the controller is a daughter board, it's relatively simple to add these options down the road.
I was hoping to be one of the beta testers so that I could figure out if I liked the board enough to buy 3 more in the Kickstarter, one for each location I use a keyboard. Now you tease me with Matias switches and make me ponder if I'll be upgrading/replacing them all later if it turns out I like the Matias switches better. Would it make any sense to try to convert a keyboard from Cherry to Matias or would it be more practical to just replace the whole board and sell off whichever one I liked less?
First post but a long-time lurker. Looking forward to this keyboard!
(Another long-term lurker votes...)Glad to have you both aboard! The split design will be the first on offer for the campaign and yes, international shipping will be offered as well. If you haven't done so already, you can sign up for information & updates from the Crowd Supply campaign at http://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard (http://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard).
AcidFire, thank you. The decision to make reds/bowns available in the Crowd Supply campaign seals it, for me. As long as the split design is an option, and international shipping is possible, I'll buy.
Of course, if a future version develops scooped keywells, I'll then have to buy one of those as well!
Do any of the other switches have easy (no soldering needed)
adjustable actuation force? Or is Cherry MX the only one with that?
Technically the Alps/Matias should, since it's basically just a spring swap. How accessible they'll be after being mounted I'm not entirely sure, I'll find out when I can get some ordered.
I am curious as to how it feels using thumb keys as modifier keys. I have been using layers to type symbols and numbers on a regular QWERTY keyboard for many years. Originally I tried using the Alt keys to the sides of the spacebar as modifiers to enable the various layers, but when later I started using a pair of high-quality footswitches to do the job it felt felt a lot more comfortable, although admittedly at the expense of portability. The reason is that, because on a regular keyboard the thumbs are the only fingers that stay put, since their only job is to push the space key, I naturally tend to hinge around the thumbs when reaching for other keys. The minute my thumbs leave their "home" position I lose my bearing and have to fumble around to get back home. This only happens when the thumb operates modifier keys, as it usually means that the entire hand has to move away from the home position. When using the thumb keys as, say, Enter or Backspace, only one key is being pressed at a time, so while the thumb leaves the home position, the other fingers don't, therefore there I can use the other fingers that haven't moved as a reference. I am asking because I see AcidFire is working on several variants of his keyboard with different thumbpad configurations and it would be interesting to know the practical differences between them.
Cool, I guess I've never had proper thumb keys, plus my set-up was not very ergonomic to begin with, being a regular qwertboard.
woah. that is beautiful. the curves and legs remind me of a grand piano.
I'm starting to think I'm going to have to do a mixed white&black keyset lol. I also updated the thread title, considering now that you guys have said it all I can see when I look at it is grand piano ;)
Also, while these are a bit big, I'm sure I could find similar to look like piano legs heh:
http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html (http://www.mbs-standoffs.com/Aluminum-Standoffs-Diameter-12-Standoff-12-Aluminum-Black-Anodized-Finish_p_3001.html)
IMHO thumb modifiers will work best on a keyboard with angled thumb clusters.
If you look at some of the older keyboard designs designed for using at a UNIX workstation, they had the design of symmetric modifiers along the bottom row instead of an obscenely idiotic monster space bar.IMHO thumb modifiers will work best on a keyboard with angled thumb clusters.
Thumb modifiers are just about the best thing ever, especially for Emacs users. They're great with separate thumb clusters, but I have a bunch of thumb modifiers (1x and 1.5x) on my custom 40% just along the bottom row and that works great too.
Hi AcidFire,
You said:
I want to make sure I'm clear about it, the flat straight/ergo split designs currently don't include space for F keys, only the split tent (I really need proper names for these designs) have the extra space for dedicated keys. Otherwise, there are enough keys in the middle of the flat designs to actually set them as dedicated F keys. If I do a dedicated desktop version (remember these designs were intended more for travel) I will include these F rows as dedicated keys.
For clarity please explain what you meant when you said:
"extra space for dedicated keys"
Does that mean there is extra space, but no actual F keys?
Or does that mean the extra space will have actual F keys?
Also for clarity it would help to see a drawing or a
picture of "the split tent" and "the flat designs".
Thanks!
xman, I think this refers to an add-on module (similar to the thumb clusters being separate modules). AcidFire mentioned that the boards will support quite a few simultaneous modules and IIRC the F-keys won't be included in the base version but as an add-on.
Awesome! I wonder why I haven't checked in earlier, although I know about the project more or less since its beginning... I especially wish I had signed up for the beta.
About the switches. If I understand it correctly, backlighting will be optional. If it's so, it shouldn't be a problem to open switches, as long as there's a phantom-style plate. Then, fewer kinds of Cherry MX would be a complete non-issue, because a pair of tweezers and a bag of Korean springs would completely solve it.
I'm kinda confused, what the name of the keyboard is currently. It appears Google have burried the Nexus brand, but so did you. The name is Axios now, isn't it? And what's ErgoGP? Is it the split keyboard (as opposed to 70% and 40%), or is it depricated as well?
I see that the keyboard is modular. Have you considered palm-button modules like some users have added to their kinesis?
Another thought... What about PBT SA keycaps? Unfortunately, I haven't seen them anywhere but SP's inventory and well... the price w/ shipping to Central Europe was quite steep.
Anyway, back to work, so that I can afford this. Maybe I'll even give up on getting the czarek's planned ErgoDox-compatible wireless keyboard.
I've been looking at a tented version with the smaller clusters as well, and I even have daughter boards done for testing, however for the time being they've been tabled until the first designs are ready to go out (I like your layout btw).I am curious as to how it feels using thumb keys as modifier keys. I have been using layers to type symbols and numbers on a regular QWERTY keyboard for many years. Originally I tried using the Alt keys to the sides of the spacebar as modifiers to enable the various layers, but when later I started using a pair of high-quality footswitches to do the job it felt felt a lot more comfortable, although admittedly at the expense of portability. The reason is that, because on a regular keyboard the thumbs are the only fingers that stay put, since their only job is to push the space key, I naturally tend to hinge around the thumbs when reaching for other keys. The minute my thumbs leave their "home" position I lose my bearing and have to fumble around to get back home. This only happens when the thumb operates modifier keys, as it usually means that the entire hand has to move away from the home position. When using the thumb keys as, say, Enter or Backspace, only one key is being pressed at a time, so while the thumb leaves the home position, the other fingers don't, therefore there I can use the other fingers that haven't moved as a reference. I am asking because I see AcidFire is working on several variants of his keyboard with different thumbpad configurations and it would be interesting to know the practical differences between them.
I love using thumb modifiers for my egrodox. I have painful wrists, so I try to move my hand and fingers as little as possible. I only use half of the available finger keys on the egrodox. I touch qwerty, but am trying out Dvorak. Here is my current layout: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=SPAJZH&hash=c9749fde145f902c34b84a3c76bfb0dd it only took a little while to get used to the mod layer. For example, tab is on a thumb shift layer, but typed with the same finger. The only difference being I don't have to stretch for it, (it's typed thumb layer "a"). Granted, it is terrible for games with a lot of key binds (I'm looking at you WoW) but works great for general typing. I also use SA profile keycaps to give the ergodox a bit of bowl shape. I'll attach a photo to demonstrate. The reduced key set + the shaped keys feels wonderful for me.
What I'm looking forward to in AcidFire's offerings is the tented thumb clusters. Even better would be one of the mini boards with tented thumb clusters. I took a lump of clay and made the ideal keyboard for me. Granted it is far from being an actual keyboard, but it does contain the most available keys for minimal finger movement (once again "for me" probably not for anyone else). I'll also include a picture of it. The keycaps don't mean anything, the green dots are the home row.
As for the SA profile, I have a set of translucent PC keys coming in from SP today so I can try out the profile. Unfortunately compared to DSA/DCS there's a fairly low demand for it so I'm not sure when I'd actually end up offering it. That being said, as with most things I won't rule out the possibility of offering them in the future, it all comes down to numbers.Round 5 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5) and some other group buys feature this kind of keycaps, but usually not in PBT. They should be thicker (good thing), taller (matter of personal preference) and spherical (IMHO good thing). Moreover, they don't fit on MX stems (especially MX Clear) nearly as tightly as DSA; there's a quite big risk of unintentional opening or even damaging switches when removing DSA keycaps.
Hi AcidFire,
Full NKRO is reportedly now possible on the ErgoDox.
I'm begging for full NKRO capability for your keyboard!
I know you discussed full NKRO previously,
and you may have already worked it out,
but I'm posting these links anyway, just in case...
NKRO would be great (i need to get around to trying plover at some point) but first be mindful of having everything being absolutely rock solid & robust on the basic usb keyboard spec. i've tried the TMK firmware on my dox, and with my kb & mouse in a little usb hub then straight into my mac it works fine, taking the hub into my belkin thunderbolt dock, then into my mac leads to various problems. hasu has been helpful at pointing out a few possible fixes to pull in, but for now i've switched back to using ic07's code which is less problematic for me, although that doesn't support waking my pooter from sleep mode. ho hum.
as this project seems to be aiming for a broader appeal than the DIY ergodox you really need to be sure that when people plug the board in, through whatever chain of devices they might use, it will work so soundly and smoothly that it just fades into the background and no one will even think of all the hard work you put in.
I agree with you 100% in theory, except when you say: "whatever chain of devices they might use" because that's a bit too much to expect in practice...well, i still think it's a good goal to aim for :) but yeah, there are practical limitations to how far it can all be tried and tested. the key point is that for something to appeal outside of a community of techy tweakers it needs to just work in most of the same environments that other commercial keyboards work, with no problems. once you start piling more hubs and devices in to the mix it will be less of an issue for the common user, but i think my sort of set up is pretty reasonable. a big selling point for a thunderbolt hub is a single connection to plug into your lappy to get everything anchored to your desktop up and running. having to plug in 2 cables is a big old first world problem, but it's a first world problem that i bought an expensive thunderbolt hub to solve ;) and i'm intending to build the usb into a new case for my dox, so to the outside world its very existence would seem to disappear. it's nice to have a couple of usb ports on your keyboard.
I think a more reasonable expectation might be: "whatever known-to-be-good/fully-tested devices they might use".
Hi AcidFire,
Full NKRO is reportedly now possible on the ErgoDox.
I'm begging for full NKRO capability for your keyboard!
I know you discussed full NKRO previously,
and you may have already worked it out,
but I'm posting these links anyway, just in case...
Even if it doesn't make it in as a feature for the default firmware for the board, I'm sure we'll eventually have a firmware version that supports it, either as a modification to the stock firmware or a port of some other keyboard firmware to this hardware. I want NKRO as well, and I'll add the feature myself if that's what it takes. :)
NKRO would be great (i need to get around to trying plover at some point) but first be mindful of having everything being absolutely rock solid & robust on the basic usb keyboard spec. i've tried the TMK firmware on my dox, and with my kb & mouse in a little usb hub then straight into my mac it works fine, taking the hub into my belkin thunderbolt dock, then into my mac leads to various problems. hasu has been helpful at pointing out a few possible fixes to pull in, but for now i've switched back to using ic07's code which is less problematic for me, although that doesn't support waking my pooter from sleep mode. ho hum.
as this project seems to be aiming for a broader appeal than the DIY ergodox you really need to be sure that when people plug the board in, through whatever chain of devices they might use, it will work so soundly and smoothly that it just fades into the background and no one will even think of all the hard work you put in.
Itching for one of these. So...hard..to..resist...current...ergodox...massdrop.....Can't wait for the crowd sourcing campaign to go live.I certainly hope so! Feature creep thankfully is a dead issue and currently is not holding back development.
Been living with a TECK for a few months now....really wanting those thumb clusters.
You are doing a great job so far Acidfire. As you have noted in other posts, don't to let feature creep bog you down. Lot's of great ideas floating around this forum make it hard not to try to please everyone.
We'll love it regardless of how many features you get into version 1.0.
Round 5 (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Round_5) and some other group buys feature this kind of keycaps, but usually not in PBT. They should be thicker (good thing), taller (matter of personal preference) and spherical (IMHO good thing). Moreover, they don't fit on MX stems (especially MX Clear) nearly as tightly as DSA; there's a quite big risk of unintentional opening or even damaging switches when removing DSA keycaps.Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to get a set onto my working prototype yet, but I'm looking forward to exploring the difference in the feel of it.
At one point in this thread you mentioned a 4x5 project that you were thinking about. Sounds like that could make an outstanding numeric keypad. Is that still something you might do in the future?Absolutely, I have the board files done but not produced yet. I haven't tackled the case design, but that should be mostly a modification of the existing 3x4 cluster design.
How's it hanging AcidFire? Any new info for us? :thumb:First off, I'd like to say thank you to those of you who stopped by to say hi (including the lurkers ;) ) during the Bay Area Maker Faire, getting the chance to meet people and hear how excited you are is a big motivator to not only get this out there, but to do it right.
Whatever beating the case had taken was bad enough that two of the latches were broken as well.
umm
which delays me a bit on getting content ready for the launch.
Will there be any geekhack community test runs before you move to crowd funding. Don't take this the wrong way acid fire, I seriously respect your work, I'm just a little sad that no prototypes ever went out and community feedback gathered. If you haven't noticed you now have members of geekhack mutilating ergo dox pcbs to improve it. People here are desperate for a ergodox successer, including myself though I want to keep my Keycaps and wrist rest.Fear not, there are still plans for community feedback. I'm currently about halfway through designing what should be the final injection molded cases, which did require a bit of a tweak to the PCBs (already done). On the current 3D printer I have access to, it'd take about 2 days worth of time to print out all the parts, and since I'm using a machine without dissolvable support material, they'll be a bit rough in some spots. When I have a final, working prototype that I feel confident in, the selected beta testers will be notified and I'll begin printing & packing units to go out. While that is happening, the campaign will go up and when funding is complete (fingers crossed), the beta testers will be the first to get preproduction cases to test out (along with those who purchase at a particular reward level). I won't order a full run for the cases until I've received enough feedback from the beta units.
Since I have recently discovered this awesome keyboard project, I have been searching through the posts, but have not caught any hint about how to program its layout - maybe I have missed it, and I am not experienced in keyboard creation.
Can I use the ergodox layout creator or would I have to write any layout file by myself?
Someone, if not AcidFire will probably have a layout creator ready to go by the time the keyboard is released.Neither, by the time the board is delivered to backers config software will have been written to make it easy to manage. We're currently looking at doing it in java as it seems to be the safest way to deliver cross platform but if there are other/better suggestions we're totally open to it. And of course with it being open source, I fully expect to see alternatives to what we provide as well ;)
Which reminds me. How close are we to lift off?
Question for when the kickstarter (crowdsupply?) goes up;Yup, they'll be a couple of DIY options. On some solid advice I've received, only the DIY kit will have the option to skip the keycaps during the CrowdSupply campaign and I plan to offer assembled versions without caps down the road.
Will there be an option without keycaps, in case someone has a set they'd like to use instead?
Since I have recently discovered this awesome keyboard project, I have been searching through the posts, but have not caught any hint about how to program its layout - maybe I have missed it, and I am not experienced in keyboard creation.
Can I use the ergodox layout creator or would I have to write any layout file by myself?Someone, if not AcidFire will probably have a layout creator ready to go by the time the keyboard is released.Neither, by the time the board is delivered to backers config software will have been written to make it easy to manage. We're currently looking at doing it in java as it seems to be the safest way to deliver cross platform but if there are other/better suggestions we're totally open to it. And of course with it being open source, I fully expect to see alternatives to what we provide as well ;)
Which reminds me. How close are we to lift off?
I am a long time lurker on geekhack, but i made an account just for this one.
I am mad interested in this project and i wanted to express my support. i'd buy one immediately.
reaaally good job!
p.s.: hello everybody btw.
I am a long time lurker on geekhack, but i made an account just for this one.
I am mad interested in this project and i wanted to express my support. i'd buy one immediately.
reaaally good job!
p.s.: hello everybody btw.
i am just same
Great news acidfire, thanks for the update!That was the plan originally, however because we're no long going with Cherry MX and using the custom designed Matias Switches, technically clears won't be available with the launch, but you can always order it without switches and add your own. There will be a version of the Clears in this new switch design as well but not for launch. (Might be a stretch goal)
I've forgotten, did you say that these would be available with MX Clears?
Also, what kind of keycaps to you intend them to come with? I'm personally very partial to cylindrical caps, I'm loving the DCS caps that just arrived for my ergodox!
Will this config software enable it to create a custom layout with several layers and corresponding (non-standard) modifier keys? I would like to set up an adjusted version of the Flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 - basically the same like http://neo-layout.org/, which has 6 layers) on your fantastic keyboard creation.Yes. The only limit to the number layers will be the size of the SD card. Currently we're looking at including 2-4gb.
Great news! I can't wait for the launch. Been very hard to turn down the last ergo massdrop, but I really like what you have been doing with this one. Love open source; Would definitely like to write some software for it (dynamic backlight control? =) ).Yup, both the solidworks parts & assemblies as well as stl files.
Will you be releasing the 3d files for the cases? At least the stl files, so those of us with printers can print our own case. Of course the full part files would be better so we could modify to our heart's content without starting from scratch.
Will the plates use the removable switch top design?Thats the plan currently, but as with everything I can't promise it because I don't know how it'll play out with the injection molding.
Hello AcidFire,Well, since I haven't put up anything to actually look at lately, I think it's time to remedy that:
your image at https://www.crowdsupply.com/multiplxd/axios-keyboard - I see there 57x1u + 21x1.5u and you are mentioning "22x 1.5u + 62x 1u" and "Lots more to come!"...
How the final layout looks like - is it splittable or even with tenting thumb clusters?
If not, will it be possible to disassemble it in a way allowing use in such alternative casing?
I'm looking forward to crowdsupply campaign, but can't wait! :)
That was the plan originally, however because we're no long going with Cherry MX and using the custom designed Matias Switches, technically clears won't be available with the launch, but you can always order it without switches and add your own. There will be a version of the Clears in this new switch design as well but not for launch. (Might be a stretch goal)
This concerns me a bit, since Ergo Clears are what I'm after. (Or at least that feel.) Could you elaborate a bit?Personally, I think Matias switches are nicer than “ergo clear” MX switches, with a similar general concept (very tactile switch without too much sound). They might be slightly more force to actuate, but the feel is much smoother, and they’re more tactile (and the tactility is crisper).
How will the Matias switches compare? Are they like the traditional ALPS switches in feel and weight? (The Apple Extended Keyboard used ALPS switches...)The Matias switches take slightly more force to actuate than the Alps switches in Apple’s old keyboards; they’re pretty similar in feel to good-condition clicky white Alps switches, if you’ve used those.
Can the spring be swapped out like the MX switches? Can the same springs be used?Yes, but there aren’t too many ready sources of replacement springs; they’re not the same type as Cherry MX switches use.
What effect will this have on key caps? Will they work with MX caps, or will ALPS connectors be necessary? If the latter, will custom layouts be possible?Matias switches use Alps-mount keycaps. They won‘t work with MX caps unless you have some kind of plastic adapters (while this is possible, it would increase the key height by quite a bit).
Will the plates use the removable switch top design?Thats the plan currently, but as with everything I can't promise it because I don't know how it'll play out with the injection molding.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.
a dressing the Ergo Clears, are you talking about straight clear switches or modified? one of the advantages of this move is the ability to do spring and stem combinations the community has been asking for at a much lower volume than what Cherry has asked for in the past.
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
a dressing the Ergo Clears, are you talking about straight clear switches or modified? one of the advantages of this move is the ability to do spring and stem combinations the community has been asking for at a much lower volume than what Cherry has asked for in the past.
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
AcidFire, in your initial thread starter post you said:
"... searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists."
Mentioning that as a reminder of what started all of this: pain.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.
Will your keyboards have a plate to mount the switches, and if so, will the switch openings have the necessary "phantom" cutouts so the switches can be opened up without desoldering?
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?
AcidFire, in your initial thread starter post you said:
"... searching for a keyboard solution to my pain in my wrists."
Mentioning that as a reminder of what started all of this: pain.
Some of us are pushed by pain towards the adjustability of MX switches,
which need to have their switch tops opened to be adjusted.
Some of us need a keyboard that easily allows that.
The following Bottom Line is my opinion:
It's really important to have a removable MX switch top design.Will your keyboards have a plate to mount the switches, and if so, will the switch openings have the necessary "phantom" cutouts so the switches can be opened up without desoldering?
Currently, the design features a bottom case and a top plate with no lip, similar to Corsair's K series. Not only does this simplify the manfacturing, but it also makes it easier to stack different key layouts closer together. This was done specifically in response to feedback from those with smaller hands.
Up until now, I hadn't prioritized the cutouts for the top removal but xman makes an excellent point, this board is all about finding your comfort, and that includes the switches. I've added them to a new model of the switch top I'll be running off the 3D printer to test for rigidity, however dimensionally there seems to be enough plastic between them to be solid.
No, much of this is in direct response to questions/concerns from me. The switches are still very early in the design stage, but from what I understand they'll be very close to the Cherry mechanically, with some much needed modifications that Cherry has been lacking since the start. As I've mentioned before, I can't say more past that at this time but know that if the Matias produced switches aren't up to snuff (and I seriously doubt that'll be a problem) I have a backup plan in place.Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?
The switches are still very early in the design stage, ...If they’re currently very early in the design phase, I’m amazed that apparently the plan is to ramp up production in the near future. I would have expected figuring out the design/tooling/supply chain issues for a new type of keyswitch to take at least several months.
The switches are still very early in the design stage, ...If they’re currently very early in the design phase, I’m amazed that apparently the plan is to ramp up production in the near future. I would have expected figuring out the design/tooling/supply chain issues for a new type of keyswitch to take at least several months.
Also, it seems weird to base a switch on Cherry MX. I guess that’s where the money currently is, but Cherry MX seems like a pretty flawed switch in many ways. It seems like you’d get a better typing experience (either for linear or tactile switches) by starting with a different basic design. Then again, I guess MX switches are well-known, with lots of options for keycaps. I’m especially surprised because Matias himself has gone on record a few times bad-mouthing MX switches.
I'm also cautiously optimistic about trying out Matias switches. My favorite switch so far has been Cherry MX Clears, but Matias quiet clicky's sound similar and very good from all the descriptions that I've read.
I must say, the blue prototypes with the tiltable thumb clusters really look great. I can't wait to see the finished product! Also it's good that Acidfire has thought about mounting options with the screw holes. I can finally create my Emperor chair!! My girlfriend will be ecstatic to have this in the living room! :rolleyes:
(Attachment Link)
Now that chair is awesome. :eek:
Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road.Are you just going to hand wire those, or what?
ooooh, curves? now we're talking :)
the one thing that my kinesis has over my dox is the 3d-ness. it just feels that much easier to reach the bottom row of keys. get some shaping action going on there and you're getting into the territory of being the ideal keyboard. well, maybe apart from the datahand ;)
Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road.Are you just going to hand wire those, or what?
Curved keywells are tricky. Bottom row easier to reach with the four fingers comes at the cost of being able to press those keys with palms or thumbs... and it makes the keyboard bulky.
Something like Model M's curved backplate wouldn't hurt, but PCBs and their price...
Now I do have an opinion question for those of you looking to either assemble your own or are looking to buy the kit to hack it. I've been looking at the interconnect options between the adjustable pieces, and I can either stay with the 2mm connectors which have some issues (right angle females break exceptionally easy) and are a bit more labor intensive to produce and relatively bulky, or FPC cables & connectors which are thinner and tend to be easier to manage in a smaller case which also lets me design it a bit slimmer and makes it easier to take the casing apart. It also means that when you don't opt for things like the f-row addon that there is a much smaller hole in the case. They're also easier to assemble (with the right locking connector). Originally, the 2mm connectors were selected for height and the fact that because they're through hole its still easy to solder to them. The FPC cables on the other hand would require no soldering but aren't breadboard/hacker friendly. To counter that, I'd look at offering a "hacker" kit that would include breakouts for the FPC cables to standard 0.1" spacing, aiming for a cost around 10-20 depending on what would be included (breakouts, extra cables of different lengths, etc). Thoughts?
I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.
This might be a dumb idea, but what about something like pigtails? I'm just trying to think outside the box...I'm not sure I get what you mean by Pigtails, but I'd guess that you're talking about coiled cables?
It seems to me that the vast majority (98.8%+ ?) of your customers will not do the level of hardware hacking that the 2mm connector would benefit. IMHO, the higher reliability option with the extra cost "hacker kit" would likely make the most people happy.I've been thinking about this more and more, and I think you're right it'll strike the right balance for now. good thing I haven't submitted my board files yet ;)
Yes, but I'm not sure when down the road. I don't feel comfortable adding an option for something that I'm not entirely sure when it'll enter/finish development, however it seems perfectly reasonable to do a funding campaign for those kits when the time comes.I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.
Does "down the road" suggest after the forthcoming campaign? If yes, it might be nice for you to consider a campaign funding option for people primarily interested in a curved keyboard.
I was thinking of something like the connector often used for WiFi antennas, example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi#mediaviewer/File:RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg), but obviously not these, just the mechanism. Can't think of a better example now.This might be a dumb idea, but what about something like pigtails? I'm just trying to think outside the box...I'm not sure I get what you mean by Pigtails, but I'd guess that you're talking about coiled cables?
As mentioned previously, something I was aiming for was the lack of borders between keys, like so:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-09.jpg)
Both the thumbs and main clusters sport this design. Also, I've come to realize as well that it may be possible to upgrade to a curved/bowl shape on the current design down the road. When I get some free time (hah!) I'll be trying to design some test peices to see how it works out.
Does "down the road" suggest after the forthcoming campaign? If yes, it might be nice for you to consider a campaign funding option for people primarily interested in a curved keyboard.Yes, but I'm not sure when down the road. I don't feel comfortable adding an option for something that I'm not entirely sure when it'll enter/finish development, however it seems perfectly reasonable to do a funding campaign for those kits when the time comes.
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.
I had a discussion today at work with the company MD about RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome. He didn`t believe a keyboard or mouse has anything to do with it, it`s solely bad posture...just to say that even educated persons can be ignorant on this.I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.
I'm surprised that a nifty company like Matias, who obviously has some great ideas and products, hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet. Or even some of the bigger guys like DAS or Leopold or Ducky who obviously cater to the keyboard enthusiast. From this community it is obvious to see that the "one size fits all" keyboard mentality should become a thing of the past. But it's all about numbers. When there are literally millions of people buying the same ****ty qwerty staggered keyboards because that is all they know and they don't know any better, there is no impetus for the big companies to change a thing. Quite frankly, even the thousands upon thousands of people who are experiencing repetitive motion injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome don't realize how really stupid the standard qwerty keyboard design is in modern day. I'm preaching to the choir, though, with this audience.
Projects like the ErgoDox and this one are long overdue. Unfortunately, even the efforts that have gone before, like Maltron and Kinesis, have been largely relegated to the obscurity of the niche ergonomics market and are only known to those who have already had to get treatment for the poor keyboarding ergonomics left to us by the inventors of the modern typewriter.
As an engineer it is very frustrating to see the masses out there continue to be duped into using inferior designed products purely for the reason that they are the established norm. It is an uphill battle.
Stepping off my soap box now.....
Keep up the great work, Acidfire. What I like about your efforts here are that you are really trying to make this a production level effort that is customize-able and user configurable. The opportunities for scaling this project up seem to really be there. If you end up starting a company that continues to innovate....I'll invest.
ah gotcha. The problem with anything using a connector or connectors on the end is bulk especially since I actually have very little room for cutouts for connectors, hence why I've been taking a hard look at the FPC cabling.
I was thinking of something like the connector often used for WiFi antennas, example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi#mediaviewer/File:RouterBoard_112_with_U.FL-RSMA_pigtail_and_R52_miniPCI_Wi-Fi_card.jpg), but obviously not these, just the mechanism. Can't think of a better example now.
There isn't a lot of plastic left on the edges of those plates. I'd be afraid those would break pretty easily, especially in a travel situation or when someone starts swapping out keyswitches or even just popping open switches for spring changes. Keep those safety factors in place!I've done a number of totally on purpose ( :)) ) drop tests and I have yet to damage the sides of the plates, and thats with using PLA which is a more brittle plastic than ABS. That being said there will still be stress testing once I've gotten the injection molded parts to ensure they'll take the abuse before I sell them. Maybe I'll put a couple of prototypes in a pelican and fly with Alaska again ;).
I understand that.That would be the aim, that you could upgrade instead of having to replace.
Is it feasible that a curved variant could reuse components from the first campaign?
I totally agree. As I sit here on a Kinesis typing this I am realizing that I am part of a niche market. I can't even type on a flat keyboard anymore. I bought the duel legend keys for Dvorak as well. Hard to change when you have to use these for typing for work everyday. The time to change and the drop in performance for your employment is scary. Still even the change of the thumb keys is extraordinary for someone that hurts daily.
I am really excited about this project. How sad that the standard QWERTY keyboard has become... well, the standard. It would be so easy for multinational keyboard manufacturers such as Logitech to mass-produce affordable symmetrical layout keyboards and yet they don't, it's so pathetic. I take my hat off to AcidFire and truly hope his keyboard starts a revolution.
I'm surprised that a nifty company like Matias, who obviously has some great ideas and products, hasn't jumped on this bandwagon yet. Or even some of the bigger guys like DAS or Leopold or Ducky who obviously cater to the keyboard enthusiast. From this community it is obvious to see that the "one size fits all" keyboard mentality should become a thing of the past. But it's all about numbers. When there are literally millions of people buying the same ****ty qwerty staggered keyboards because that is all they know and they don't know any better, there is no impetus for the big companies to change a thing. Quite frankly, even the thousands upon thousands of people who are experiencing repetitive motion injuries and carpal tunnel syndrome don't realize how really stupid the standard qwerty keyboard design is in modern day. I'm preaching to the choir, though, with this audience.
Projects like the ErgoDox and this one are long overdue. Unfortunately, even the efforts that have gone before, like Maltron and Kinesis, have been largely relegated to the obscurity of the niche ergonomics market and are only known to those who have already had to get treatment for the poor keyboarding ergonomics left to us by the inventors of the modern typewriter.
As an engineer it is very frustrating to see the masses out there continue to be duped into using inferior designed products purely for the reason that they are the established norm. It is an uphill battle.
Stepping off my soap box now.....
Keep up the great work, Acidfire. What I like about your efforts here are that you are really trying to make this a production level effort that is customize-able and user configurable. The opportunities for scaling this project up seem to really be there. If you end up starting a company that continues to innovate....I'll invest.
I had a discussion today at work with the company MD about RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome. He didn`t believe a keyboard or mouse has anything to do with it, it`s solely bad posture...just to say that even educated persons can be ignorant on this.
I do find it strange that companies spend dollars on creating ergonomical equipment for the hard labour in their factories, however they find it weird if asked for ergonomical equipment for those who sit at a desk all day.
I work in IT and got a decent chair, but I always get a strange look when I propose something as a Maltron or even a Natural Keyboard 4000, not to say a standing desk.
I applaud this initiative and hope for successful commercialisation of the Axios.
And keep researching and developing...
Now, enough with the wordy stuff. While the shape still requires some polish (not so boxy) and I have to design the wrist rest & tenting stand (my gear 2 neo will have to stand in for now), I've finally gotten a rough unit together.
To start, I've made a few changes to the thumb cluster hinges (new on the left, old on the right):Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-15.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-16.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-17.jpg)
so while the previous design allowed for angle & a little distance, this new setup provides, angle, distance & height.
This has culminated into...Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg)
Axios Transform!Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-20.jpg)
(The dreamer/masochist in me spent a disturbing amount of time wondering if I could motorize it :p )
Not only is the thumb cluster adjustable, so is the f-row of keys. So you can pack it up flat for travel, and open it up when you get there. Speaking of travel, I know many of you had asked for a solid board in part because you wanted to travel with it. I've also heard concerns about the thickness of it (I've had them myself), so here's a comparison to my QFR TK:
This is the front edge of the QFR TK compared to the Axios (which is uniform in height when flat)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-27.jpg)
While this is the back edge of the QFR, and the Axios comes in at a smaller height.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-28.jpg)
Also worth noting is that with the exception of the thumb cluster Axios comes in at a slightly shorter depth.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-29.jpg)
Now for a little hands on.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-21.jpg)
Reaching for the F row.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-24.jpg)
And for those of you with smaller hands, I also had my minion at work try it as well.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-25.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-26.jpg)
Her fingers are more than an inch shorter than mine and she still finds it comfortable (tho it definitely needs the wrist rest).
I'll be ordering new PCBs tonight (need to update the design for the FPC connectors) and spending the weekend working on the tenting, wrist rest and io plates, so hopefully there should be more updates in the next few days.
This has culminated into...<3Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-19.jpg)
Axios Transform!Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-20.jpg)
(The dreamer/masochist in me spent a disturbing amount of time wondering if I could motorize it :p )
This forum seriously needs a +1 button! Amazing piece of work!
Does this mean there is only one design now (no separate flat/travel design)? This looks quite capable. Are the f-keys and thumb cluster removable still? And the diamond-shaped arrow key cluster?
If I look at it, the cluster and the f-key row are attached with hex screws, so detaching them shouldn't be a problem.Those, definitively. The arrow cluster (TECK-like), on the contrary, would require a different plate and PCB, I think. I guess it could be among the "customize" options, but I'm not sure those will be available at first (?)
This forum seriously needs a +1 button! Amazing piece of work!Yes, that was the aim with this new revision; to eliminate the need for the separate travel/flat version so that the funding campaign may appeal to more people and not only get us to the funding goal but to some of the extras as well (including bluetooth included in the kits :D).
Does this mean there is only one design now (no separate flat/travel design)? This looks quite capable. Are the f-keys and thumb cluster removable still? And the diamond-shaped arrow key cluster?
How many positions does your design allow and how do you lock the positions?
I am looking forward to owning one.
Edit: Is that the final key arrangement?Currently yes but not set in stone, nothing will be finalized or approved for production until I have feedback from the beta testers who will be receiving the first units. Was there a particular concern you have?
Hello everyone... I've also been a lurker for some time and I've just registered to say how impressed and happy I am seeing this project nearing completion.
I'm happy I only discovered the project a couple weeks ago. The wait would have been insane had I seen the Grand Piano last summer. I've been checking this thread for updates several times a day since I found the thread (in fact, I read the entire thread just because...), and I'll buy at least one as soon as it's available...
I've wanted to build an ergonomic keyboard for years, but if electronics and coding isn't a problem, I never found a good solution to create the case/plate (I considered buying a 3D printer, but that's still expensive for not-perfect results). But this project is really, really close to what I dreamed... I just love it.
To be more precise, I intended to use levers instead of "lateral" buttons for the thumbs, but I guess it's a possible hack, I would have loved a "bowl" design (kinesys-style), even if I know it's really difficult to achieve, I would have put an additional row for pinkies and I'm not fond of the "gap" between the inner "arrow" key and the other keys (I prefer the ErgoGP layout by a small margin), but I think using a 1.5u keycap for the arrow can nearly fill this gap.
Still, those are mostly details, it's 95% what I wanted, and so much better than what I could have done (I want a fablab/hacker space in my town!)
I'm eagerly waiting to replace my keyboard, now... and to implement my ideal layout. I intend to develop a configuration tool for this, too, if that can be of any use, should the available one not already allow for any strange ideas I have.
tl;dr : many, many thanks, AcidFire, for all your hard work!If I look at it, the cluster and the f-key row are attached with hex screws, so detaching them shouldn't be a problem.Those, definitively. The arrow cluster (TECK-like), on the contrary, would require a different plate and PCB, I think. I guess it could be among the "customize" options, but I'm not sure those will be available at first (?)
An earlier design included 1u instead of the 1.5u for the pinkies, as well as an extra row of keys however it really wasn't comfortable to reach for (and was contrary to the design ethos of trying to reduce travel around the board as much as possible).I guess it's a matter of habit... Since there's two lateral rows on traditional keyboards and the return key is actually three rows on the left of the pinker rest key, I don't mind using two rows on both sides of the hand (putting the rarest used one on the most external one, of course). There's usually 31 character keys plus two dead keys for french language, and as a programmer I like my {}[]\ etc. directly available, so I'm always fond of more keys ^_^ It's even worse in japanese, there's 50 (59) keys required just for main characters, and many additional converting keys besides ponctuation marks.
Yes, the arrow cluster is part of the current PCB & plate, but there's nothing saying I can't release a version of them (even just the design files) that is similar to the original ergogp layout. Open Source ftw ;)Yes, another reason to find all this great. But if I can avoid finding someone that'll produce a 4-layers PCB then soldering SMD components, just for a single key position, I'm all for it ^_^
An earlier design included 1u instead of the 1.5u for the pinkies, as well as an extra row of keys however it really wasn't comfortable to reach for (and was contrary to the design ethos of trying to reduce travel around the board as much as possible).I guess it's a matter of habit... Since there's two lateral rows on traditional keyboards and the return key is actually three rows on the left of the pinker rest key, I don't mind using two rows on both sides of the hand (putting the rarest used one on the most external one, of course). There's usually 31 character keys plus two dead keys for french language, and as a programmer I like my {}[]\ etc. directly available, so I'm always fond of more keys ^_^ It's even worse in japanese, there's 50 (59) keys required just for main characters, and many additional converting keys besides ponctuation marks.
And maybe that's me, but I find keys two rows outside for pinkies on the home row more accessible than the keys two row under the ring fingers, for example. The fact that I've played keyboard instruments may have changed my preferences a bit, though (the layout toos, I'm sometimes using several keys for the same character, using them depending on the current state of the hand... like alternate fingerings with flute. E.g. a distant direct access and a close alt-gr access. On the same idea, I like how punctuation marks followed by an upper case character, such as ? and . are shifted keys and the others, like , ; and : are normal keys on AZERTY keyboards... I used to import belgian azerty keyboards which, I think, are a nice blend between qwerty and azerty)
That being said, that's just a small detail, I just love your work. I couldn't stop myself yesterday evening from tweaking my layout to adapt to those small changes. I'm now ready and eagerly wait to send you money ^_^ A big programmation task probably awaits, though (I need a kind of macro keys aware of previous keystrokes, for example to be able to build a japanese kana layer that doesn't need a driver, sending Hepburn sequences for each kana character. But it's a problematic task : a き press can be translated as 'ki' but if you follow it by ゃ, you need to send backspace then 'kya', the Hepburn sequence for きゃ. Of course, the replacement sequence depends on the previous key. I wasn't expecting to be able to do this with a normal keyboard, but since those kind of keyboards are wonderfully capable of customization...)
Yes, the arrow cluster is part of the current PCB & plate, but there's nothing saying I can't release a version of them (even just the design files) that is similar to the original ergogp layout. Open Source ftw ;)Yes, another reason to find all this great. But if I can avoid finding someone that'll produce a 4-layers PCB then soldering SMD components, just for a single key position, I'm all for it ^_^
OK, AcidFire, you win.
After looking at your pictures that you posted Fri, 13 June 2014:
I personally prefer your design over any other split keyboard design
that I've ever seen anywhere.
When your keyboard works (with full NKRO) with Plover,
I'm going to have to buy it.
Can't speak for the other 329 Plover Google Group members,
but I'm guessing I won't be alone.
Thanks
xman
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ploversteno/0snNzQ9jtt0
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/ploversteno
http://stenoknight.com/wiki/Main_Page
I'm also a plover group member, and I'm buying one as soon as it's available...
The thing to remember with the extra keys, particularly ones like programmer keys is that on this current revision the second row of 1.5u above the main row is very easily reachable with your thumbs (I know I plan to try putting them there ;) )I noticed that, indeed. I placed more modifiers on the thumb clusters, and that freed enough keys to make everything easily reachable. There's more keys reachable than on a classic keyboard, so that's already good.
I find your aim to make something like japanese work within the board instead of on the PC side extremely interesting, in part because it falls in with the direction of the board not requiring support on the PC side to function (also because I love the language).That's exactly what I thought. That's not a perfect solution, because you still need an IME installed (or a program with integrated japanese support, like JWPCE which can be carried on a USB key). But at least you won't need to install drivers for the keyboard to support kana entering. Just maybe some configuration to set up the henkan & muhenkan keys.
But I don't blame you, SMD work can be a pain in the ass.My friends in a robotic club find SMD "not challenging enough" and are doing BGA soldering now for FPGAs and microcontrollers, using a custom oven. As crazy as it sounds, it (usually) works. So I have some experience in SMD soldering (they design nearly everything this way), but I still don't like it much.
...in the world of wailing shred guitar we have handy allen key holders like this http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html (http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html) maybe you can work something like that into the design.
As for locking them, I'm exploring a few options. Right now I'm using a hex driver to tighten them, but I've also tried a couple of versions of thumb screws with varying degrees of success. I've also looked at flip locks but I haven't designed for them before. The hex key gives the best level of comfort when tightening, but I also don't want someone to have to pack a driver with them when they travel. I do have a thought about it I'm going to try modelling for.
...
Edit: Is that the final key arrangement?Currently yes but not set in stone, nothing will be finalized or approved for production until I have feedback from the beta testers who will be receiving the first units. Was there a particular concern you have?
I find your aim to make something like japanese work within the board instead of on the PC side extremely interesting, in part because it falls in with the direction of the board not requiring support on the PC side to function (also because I love the language).That's exactly what I thought. That's not a perfect solution, because you still need an IME installed (or a program with integrated japanese support, like JWPCE which can be carried on a USB key). But at least you won't need to install drivers for the keyboard to support kana entering. Just maybe some configuration to set up the henkan & muhenkan keys.
Small configuration tweaks in the keyboard can be done without installing anything, anyway (I even used the capslock / numlock LEDs in the past to send data back to a custom device acting as a fake keyboard for the system). As long as the PC believe you're entering Hepburn sequences, that'll do I think.
if you want to write in real japanese, you would want to get kanji and katakana out as well, not only hiragana. for this aim you would need an ime anyway - or program your own equivalent to it, which would be be extremely laborious.Yes, of course. I think I wasn't clear enough.
i would also like to make an additional (7th) layer for character strings per key (like sending "i n t Space m a i n ( ) Return { Return Return } Uparrow" to speed up programming) in the adjusted flux1.01 layout.Definitively. That's macro keys for you (if it's not in the standard configuration program, it'll definitively be possible in the one I'll try to develop). The only issue could be memory, but there should be plently of memory.
will it be possible to make such a character code string layer - and also create a layout switch key?
is there a release date yet??- Still aiming to get the campaign done for the end of the month, but that'll depend on the delivery of the boards.
where can i sign for the first batch??
do you have a website with news or do you use this forum alone??
will it be a kit like the the ergodox??
do you have a price yet??
I think the only way to improve on this for me is to have the key to the right of the arrow keys be a scroll wheel. (As long as I'm greedy, maybe a tilt scroll wheel :) ).
in the world of wailing shred guitar we have handy allen key holders like this http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html (http://guitarheads.net/products/hardware/misc/allen.html) maybe you can work something like that into the design.My thinking was along the same lines but without requiring the hardware. I had a thrustmaster HOTAS setup that you could disconnect with an allen key that was stored in the bottom of the throttle like so:
more variations on the theme here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guitar+headstock+allen+key&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oPydU5XPIsH80QX61oDoDQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1753&bih=847)
if you want to write in real japanese, you would want to get kanji and katakana out as well, not only hiragana. for this aim you would need an ime anyway - or program your own equivalent to it, which would be be extremely laborious.Far enough, I'll let Koren take it for a spin on his board and we'll see how it works out.
however, a keyboard layout for japanese input is what i am interested in setting up, too. but i am rather tying with the japanese ergonomic m-system layout (http://xahlee.info/kbd/Japan_M-Type_TRON_keyboards.html) to clone it partly on acidfire's keyboard.
additionally to this, like i have mentioned before, i want to use an adjusted version of the flux1.01 layout (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Flux1.01 adjusted similar to http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Ergodox) for german input - moreover the standard layouts for korean (i guess, this is just qwerty converted by the korean ime into korean) and russian.
My friends in a robotic club find SMD "not challenging enough" and are doing BGA soldering now for FPGAs and microcontrollers, using a custom oven. As crazy as it sounds, it (usually) works. So I have some experience in SMD soldering (they design nearly everything this way), but I still don't like it much.Yeah I just don't like being hunched over while doing it, hard on my back :P And I can only imagine what kind of hell that would be!
At least, you still see the components... In my lab, diods were packaged in capsules (like drugs) because they were as thin as hairs. I remember trying to find one fallen on the floor, the hell it was! ^_^
I have found that having the navigation keys tucked into that spot has lead to accidents on my TECK. But that has a lot to due with habits that I'm having to change. I expect the Axios layout will lead to even more accidents as I'm climbing the learning curve. There have been times when I've wished they weren't tucked in quite as close or that there was some sort of tactile indication that my fingers were on a navigation button instead of whatever I thought it was.
Do you have a plan for indicator lights? (Caps lock, num lock, something programmed)
Yumea's is also right about some kind of switch/arrow-keys/wheel which lets you select which layer you are using, but then this begs the use of an LED or some kind of beep-feedback (eg number of beeps?) which tells you which layer you have selected.I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.
- Still aiming to get the campaign done for the end of the month, but that'll depend on the delivery of the boards.Nice!
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators.Additional LEDs are always welcome, but I don't find using backlight LEDs (so there's indeed backlight LEDs for the first version? That's great...) such a bad idea, actually. I can't look check a status light without actually looking at the keyboard if there's several LEDs, but changing the backlight color depending on the layer/status can provide information about the active layer just using the peripheral vision... I think it's one of the useful uses for the backlight, besides just being "cool".
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.
I have a thought as to where one might fit, but a scroll wheel is a
In the spirit of searching for a better input device and not to derail the thread by any means, are you guys aware of the King's Assembly mouse keyboard combo? Preorder has started already.http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57497.0
Quick update for tonight. While it still needs some tweaking, I have the rough design done for the tenting to be built into the casing.
Flat:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-30.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-33.jpg)
15° incline:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-31.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-34.jpg)
30° incline:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-32.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-35.jpg)
This design currently supports between 0-30° inclines.
This plate shares the anchors for the center pieces that allow the main clusters to be connected for a central board as well, and is completely removable. Next up is the wrist rest :D
I'm still looking at where I can possibly get indicator lights on the board, without resorting to using the backlight LEDs as indicators. I'm thinking of tucking them under the arrow keys closer to the thumb cluster on the bottom. Alternatively, I'm also looking at a raised section above the 1.5u keys but that would cause problems with 3D printing the design. Regarding the beep, there is a peizo on the board so that could be used for layer indication as well, but definitely in conjunction with the LEDs as I'm sure those sharing office space would want to turn the beeping off.Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB. From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev? Can you expand on your plans for this?
That latest keyboard iteration looks amazing. I LOVE how you have implemented the tenting and original grand piano thumb cluster orientation. Can you explain how the thumb cluster achieves the custom angle that is not fixed? I really dig it but I do not see exactly how it works. It looks super smart though.Right now, there are a pair of arms that connects the thumb to the main cluster, which are curved in at the top to allow the greater range of motion. They tighten down (currently with a hex driver) to lock into position.
when the thumb cluster gets attached, I'm a little afraid that is going to get a little tippy towards the middle. Great idea, though, on the lift mechanism. I have toyed with similar ideas in my head for how to add tenting to a flat split keyboard. Glad to see someone with the time and facilities to try ideas like that out so quickly. Let us know how that feels once you have thumb cluster attached and start pounding on the keys. ;D
Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB. From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev? Can you expand on your plans for this?First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.
i worry that this connection construction with screws is not stable enough. when some pressure (lying hand) acts on the hinges for some while, they could slip due to insufficient sticking friction and the quite strong torsional moment on them, and if the screws are tightened too firmly to prevent this, the material could be damaged.
so i took some time to consider about an alternative, a physical barrier which shall keep the setting of thumb and main cluster without screw tension on the material.
my idea consists of a gib with a "gear wheel"-like outer profile
(Attachment Link)
so the connectors of thumb cluster, interlink and main cluster to this gib get "gear wheel"-like inner profile negative to the gib's one
(Attachment Link)
stuck together it would look like this:
(Attachment Link)
in this draft the relative position of the thumb to the main cluster is not continuous, the raster is small and can be made even smaller though, but the advantage is the much better stability of the adjusted state.
to change the relative orientation, the gib has to be removed and inserted again.
the gib itself could be enhanced by a head (like a screw head) for shifting and fixation.
i want to give you this idea for your consideration, acidfire.
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodesIs it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).I know this discussion originated here, but doesn't this deserve a separate thread?
i find it much more beautiful to preset directly the unicode output. (for my further purposes of using adjusted layouts for korean and japanese, this would work, too - i just let the keyboard send the unicode codes which the ime then converts into the desired korean or japanese character; and for using even more layouts controlled by IMEs in their standard layout (like russian), i would program also another qwerty-like scancode layout.)
as i have mentioned before, i want to make keyboard layouts containing several layers, which i habe been in the process of designing.
these layers shall be accessible by modifier keys (just like the old Shift key).
as i am quite unexperienced in programming keyboards i would like to get your help about how to program such layers.
i have made a sample code about how i imagine such modifier key functions and hope to get your advice in how to actually do it. i also expect my sample code to be containing many mistakes which i would appreciate you much to correct for me.
the basic outline of my sample is:
case of pressed modifier keys -> function for the combination with a following character key -> unicode fire function for this key combination <-> timer function to make delay between the unicode fires; presetting of these delays
(i my sample this all follows in reverse order, just like c++ works)
i do not know how to address the keys. so i have assumed the
sample modifier keys to be accessed by: Key03 and Key04 (keys like Ctrl, Shift, Alt, ...)
and the
sample character keys by: KeyA5, KeyA6, KeyA7 (keys like A, L, 4, [, -)
*Key*.state is meant to return if *Key* is pressed down (state=1) or released (state=-1) - right i have no clue about how to make such a function either.
int d0=500; // sets standard delay between first and second code fire
int d1=50; // sets standard delay between code fires, up from the second code fire
int timer(int ttM, int tKey){ // timer: makes delay to next code fire as long as the keys are down
for (int tt=0,tt<ttM,tt++){ // counts up until delay time ttM (d0 or d1 from the fire unicode function loop) or until the character key tKey is released
if (tKey.state=-1){ // case that the character key tKey is released
tt=ttM; // sets exit condition to this timer
st=-1; // sets exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
return st; // returns exit condition to the fire unicode function loop that has initiated this timer
}
}
}
...
int send03(){...} // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination
int send04(){...} // fire function to fire unicode for the Key03+... combination
...
int send0304(int unicode, int sKey){ // fire function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,6,7,..... combination
for (int st=0,st>-1,st++){ // repeats infinitely until timer returns exit condition st=-1
send unicode; // fires the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5,A6,A7,..... combination
if st=0 timer(d0, sKey); // starts timer for the 1st code fire to make delay of d0 (e.g. 500 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
else timer(d1, sKey); // starts timer up from the 2nd code fire to make delay of d1 (e.g. 50 from presetting) timer circles to next code fire
}
}
...
int m03(){...} // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03
int m04(){...} // function to register the following character in the case of pressed-down Key03
...
int m0304(){ // function to register the following character key in the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination
if (KeyA5.state=1) // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
send0304(29D4,KeyA5); // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA5 combination
else
if (KeyA6.state=1) // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
send0304(29D5,KeyA6); // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA6 combination
else
if (KeyA7.state=1) // case of pressed-down Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
send0304(29D6,KeyA7); // starts function to fire the unicode for the Key03+Key04+KeyA7 combination
else
if
.....
else
if KeyA7.state=-1
send03() // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key03
else
if KeyA6.state=-1
send04() // switches to the function for the case of pressed-down Key04
}
int main(){ // MAIN PROGRAM
...
if (Key03.state=1){
if (Key04.state=1)
m0304(); // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination
...
else m03(); // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03 (placement here unlogical)
}
if (Key04.state=1){
if (Key03.state=1)
m0304(); // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key03+Key04 combination
...
else m04(); // starts function for the case of pressed-down Key04 (placement here unlogical)
}
...
}
i guess one (only one of the certainly numerous) necessary correction would be to put the call for the m0304 function with its calling condition into the m03 and m04 functions.
The new case is looking sweet, especially with all those fold out parts that can lay flat for transport, my only concern would be adjusting them on the go. While the allen wrench holder would make it easier, perhaps it would be worth looking into thumbscrews as a means of adjustment. Though with the size of the screws that may not be much easier than the wrench.I've spent some time looking, designing and testing both traditional nurled and otherwise patterned thumbscrews and the tight spacing in a number of places makes them somewhat difficult to employ. I haven't given up finding another option but the hex key+holder is still looking like the best bet currently.
Damn you AcidFire!I'm... sorry? No wait, no I'm not ;)
Why did you make such a sweet project into reality :P
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snip
Is it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).It's a really interesting way to look at it, along with the counterpoints Koren's made. I'll be putting up a dedicated forum near launch or shortly after with a section dedicated to programming and sharing of this sort of thing where this can be discussed further, especially after I've released the source code.
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.Backlight LEDs ought to be fine for this I think, especially if they're RGB. From what I understand reading through the thread though, we're not going to see RGB/LEDs on the first rev? Can you expand on your plans for this?First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.
As for memory space, I'm still looking at using the LPC11U37 with 64kB flash/12kB sram. However, given the small difference in price (about 0.40-0.50/unit in volume)I'd say it definitively worth the ~ .50 (for me at least). I'll gladly pay for it. Running out of memory just for .50 would be unfortunate.
Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.You can still use shapes with so many leds: all keys = layer 0 ; left&right columns = row 1 ; upper line of keys = layer 2 ; home row = layer 3 ; illuminated heart = layer 4 ; etc.
First rev will feature a single color backlight to keep the initial costs down. An RGB version will follow once everything is working smoothly.Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.
QuoteAs for memory space, I'm still looking at using the LPC11U37 with 64kB flash/12kB sram. However, given the small difference in price (about 0.40-0.50/unit in volume)I'd say it definitively worth the ~ .50 (for me at least). I'll gladly pay for it. Running out of memory just for .50 would be unfortunate.
Layers (and especially macros) take space, and I was thinking that the keyboard could make a double translation: key -> actual character* -> keycodes**. The first one depending on the layout, the second one depending on the keyboard you're trying to emulate. I mean, I'm probably not the only one who will probably use it on different computers. Sometimes, you can't change the keyboard layout in the PC. Being able to say to the *keyboard* "behave like a qwerty", "behave like an azerty", "behave like a qwertz" would be handy.
* or macros
** or sequence of keycodes
What I mean is that the keyboard could translate "second row, second key" into "A", then "A" into 24 or 36 depending on the azerty/qwerty settings (then the PC will translate it back into "A"). Who hasn't been stuck in a terminal, trying to remember how typing a strong password with a azerty layout in a qwerty terminal, without any way to change the layout on the PC side? (OK, probably many people interested in AcidFire's keyboard, but developpers/administrators where qwerty is not the de facto standard will probably understand what I mean ^_^ )
But this require to store both your layout and several standard layouts (that fortunately only have a limited number of layers)Ah right, well without RGB, it's probably not going to work for cycling through layouts for example, but the backlight is still probably alright for two-state toggle indication.You can still use shapes with so many leds: all keys = layer 0 ; left&right columns = row 1 ; upper line of keys = layer 2 ; home row = layer 3 ; illuminated heart = layer 4 ; etc.
Still, I agree that RGB is just nicer and cooler.
That being said, remember that the layers aren't stored in the micro like most controllers, but rather an external memory card which you can upgrade quite easily.Nice to know that the external memory card is still in the project. With this, obviously, memory isn't a problem anymore, so forget about my previous message. This keyboard will be great.
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snipIs it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).It's a really interesting way to look at it, along with the counterpoints Koren's made. I'll be putting up a dedicated forum near launch or shortly after with a section dedicated to programming and sharing of this sort of thing where this can be discussed further, especially after I've released the source code.
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
snip
but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?If fear it's quite a good summarization of the current situation...
that is quite stoneage.
in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:I think I remember old non-PC keyboards sending directly ASCII (7bits) codes instead of scancodes. And you can always create a keyboard that send unicode characters on PC... but you could need to install a specific driver so that the PC understand the keycodes.
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.
on the pictures below i show my desired layout which i have developed so far up to the 4th layerSeems perfectly doable for me. You'll have a lot of macros, but since there's enough memory for this...
koren, on the third (japanese) layout i want to show you my proposal for japanese hepburn sequences. i have been considering about your idea, and it seems to be just the same like mine.Yes, we've pretty similar ideas. The differences are interesting, though.
do you know how to generate ゛゜ by hepburn?Not sure you actually can create a hepburn sequence for that. "to" must become "do", "ho" become "bo" or "po".
(disclaimer: if it bothers AcidFire or anyone here that we discuss protocols/layouts/firmware here, we can open a separate thread...)
So, it's getting close to the end of the month. Still on track? I'm anxious to give you my monies. ;)
Okay, this is the third time today that I've checked this thread... I've got a problem. (And, no, you can't prove that I checked it more than 3 times... because I wasn't logged in and I used different computers for the other times. :p)
I highly suggest you guys turn on notifications so you get a mail everytime there's a new reply (in addition to some sort of notification on new mails) - it will save you a lot of time otherwise spent refreshing.
You may get slightly improved rigidity without increasing weight / amount of plastic by adding some little ribs; this nice page has some about that at the top:
http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch6/
Thanks to a rather painful migraine, I didn't get much sleep last night. So, shiny new forums are up! (http://forums.multiplxd.com/)
That's cool, but now I'll have to keep track of two places instead of just one. :evil:
Ouch, TotalChaos strikes back. Await a hundred posts about how this keyboard should support PS/2.
(not to mention the LPC11U line supports the drag & drop programming bootloader).
AcidFire: First of all I'm seriously excited about this keyboard coming out and I can't wait to put my hands on this beauty. Thank you for doing all of this work, I'm sure hundreds/thousands of people will appreciate it in future.Unfortunately to start we won't be able to offer options outside of the Polycarb (though we are looking at a variety of colors for those) simply because it's too much of an investment to get them from SP where we can offer a price point that is appealing to you and doesn't end up costing us money. As I mentioned tho, you will be able to order the PC keys in hopefully a decent spectrum and they'll be vinyl coated/dyed so they won't wear like normal ABS/Printed keys. As for the profiles, we're currently going to be offering DSA & DCS (though DCS will be Row 1) to start. There's also something special we're doing with the DSA keys that we'll share a bit later ;)
I would like to ask you about the type of key caps that the keyboard will offer. I don't particularly care that much for the back light, RGB or whatnot ,since I wish to use unmarked keys. I'm pretty sure that you mentioned creating a custom profile for the caps used for your board. So I'm wondering if we will be able to customize the colors (since I wish to have white PBT caps for the alphanumerics and light grey for the modifier keys), chose if we want anything printed on the caps and I hope they will be PBT? Or will we need to get them from somewhere else, I'm just worried about the specific profile of caps for the Axios that will be hard to source. Hmm or maybe SP will do some kind of a custom set like they did for the ErgoDox, will be cool to this what comes out.
Another thing about the actual switches. I'm excited to see what Matias can engineer for the Axios, but I'm worried about the time they might take. It sounds like a pretty drastic change from their current line up, to a more cherry MX oriented design and improve it on top of that. Are they getting any closer to a finishing stage and what other info you might have about them for us?
And also the casing. Will we get to chose a color for it? I sure would love a completely black case with that key cap combo :)
Either way, hopefully we are inching closer and closer to the release of this sucker and celebrating all of the work that you put into this.
This keyboard looks splendiferously wonderful!
I can't wait to buy one with Cherry Red switches!
Ouch, TotalChaos strikes back. Await a hundred posts about how this keyboard should support PS/2.Ha! I know I've seen libraries for PS2 support, and it may be possible with the current setup of the board, we'll have to take a look at it once everything else is taken care of.
I think the MX-compatible Matias switches could have something to do with Gaote, a company that assembles Alps-compatible Matias switches and makes Cherry MX clones (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Gaote_Cherry_MX_clone). Gaote MX-compatible switches are already used on keyboards like Noppoo Lolita.That's interesting. If so, they may be the ones doing the engineering which should hopefully lead to short development time. I'll have to ask the next time I talk to Matias.
First, good to seeing great progress of your project!The prototype controllers I have are currently built with the LPC11U35, but I don't believe the bootloader is much different (or at all). The LPC11U6X series I believe is a slightly different bootloader but I haven't had a chance to order test parts (I would also have to redo the board layout).
I like to ask some about bootloader of LPC controller.(not to mention the LPC11U line supports the drag & drop programming bootloader).
I'm working with NXP LPC11U35/501 and disappointed a bit at its bootloader. The NXP bootloader is not as "Drap and Drop" as what I expected, on Mac and Linux I cannot program with the "DnD" method and I have to use terminal commands(like umount, dd) to upload my firmware. Not so user friendly.
Does your LPC11U37 has better bootloader and you can do "Drag and Drop" on Mac and Linux?
And I have no experience other Cortex M's, so I don't know the NXP booloader is excellent or not in comparison with other Cortex's like STM. Did you try other Cortex's yet? How do you think?
...
Just one question, @AcidFire. To clarify, how many different products should we be expecting in the CrowdSupply campaign, now? Reading between the lines, I'm expecting one fixed (flat) keyboard and one two-part (tent-able) one - or have I missed something?
It's update time!
With new paste masks in hand, I've started assembling the latest electronics:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-66.jpg)
This is the new laser cut jig I made for the controller board, with the paste mask visible in the top of the pic. I have a jig like this for each of the new boards, which makes it easy to paste...Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-67.jpg)
and place on these boards, cutting my assembly time down substantially.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-68.jpg)
And onto the electric skillet for reflow:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-69.jpg)
Working on one of the large 5x7 clusters (sorry for the blurry pic):Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-70.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-71.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-72.jpg)
These are 0.5mm pitch FPC connectors, and while this method was a bit more expensive to set up (new tools/materials + masks), it's taken a lot of the headache out of the assembly. This will also make it easier to assemble beta units once I've verified these prototypes.
Speaking of prototypes, while I have my handy Kossel Mini printer for prototype parts, a friend of mine is currently printing me a full prototype case on one of his machines at work. While not a fast machine (expected to take all week to print), it'll be the closest I'll have to the final production design and is the last piece I'm waiting on to finish a video & photos for a campaign so I can finally get the funding up.
This project seems to get better and better every time I check back.That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).
The best part is that it seems Acidfire has manufacture already figured out before he starts the campaign vs some other crow funding campaigns.
I'll be waiting patiently for the start of the kick starter campaign.
I was thinking all this time that you have been using a fancy 3D printer (one of the tens of thousands of dollars ones), and all this time you are getting excellent prints with one that is very affordable; that is encouraging as I am in the market for one.Currently I'm using an OpenBeam Kossel Mini - Reprap; this printer has absolutely spoiled me. I take it to and from the office everyday (40min drive each way) without having to re-calibrate or service it. This is a prototype unit too, for what that's worth. When I come back from my trip down to Seattle & Portland, I'll be running a OpenBeam Kossel - Pro, which has a much larger build area (250mm vs 170mm) and with the higher end parts on it (injection molded, stuffed with bearings) it'll run faster too. They're also quiet too, I run the Mini sitting no more than 3 ft from me at all times and having a conversation with someone is louder than the printer. I have a couple preordered already for ongoing development & beta unit production. I can't recommend them enough and you can preorder them here (https://www.shopstarter.com/p/ttstam/openbeam-kossel-pro-a-new-type-of-3d-printer/) :D </shameless plug>
Thanks for all the encouragement guys, as always it's a huge help and definitely a motivator :DThis project seems to get better and better every time I check back.That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).
The best part is that it seems Acidfire has manufacture already figured out before he starts the campaign vs some other crow funding campaigns.
I'll be waiting patiently for the start of the kick starter campaign.
Because I know it's been buried in the thread, to reiterate:
** Electronics **
- PCBs - Produced in Canada
- Parts - 95% North American 5% China
- Switches - Produced By Matias (Canada)
- Assembly - Done in house on our PCB line
** Hardware **
- Casing - Produced 20min from my daytime job office
- Hardware - Canadian Vendors
- Keycaps - Produced by SP, painted and laser etched in house
** Packaging **
- Produced locally (boxes) & in house (inserts)
- Packed locally
I also have a minimum of two backups for each vendor, including if something happens with our in house equipment.I was thinking all this time that you have been using a fancy 3D printer (one of the tens of thousands of dollars ones), and all this time you are getting excellent prints with one that is very affordable; that is encouraging as I am in the market for one.Currently I'm using an OpenBeam Kossel Mini - Reprap; this printer has absolutely spoiled me. I take it to and from the office everyday (40min drive each way) without having to re-calibrate or service it. This is a prototype unit too, for what that's worth. When I come back from my trip down to Seattle & Portland, I'll be running a OpenBeam Kossel - Pro, which has a much larger build area (250mm vs 170mm) and with the higher end parts on it (injection molded, stuffed with bearings) it'll run faster too. They're also quiet too, I run the Mini sitting no more than 3 ft from me at all times and having a conversation with someone is louder than the printer. I have a couple preordered already for ongoing development & beta unit production. I can't recommend them enough and you can preorder them here (https://www.shopstarter.com/p/ttstam/openbeam-kossel-pro-a-new-type-of-3d-printer/) :D </shameless plug>
They're produced in China I believe, including assembly. I tagged Matias as Canadian since I'm dealing with them and they're based in Canada with me. Of course they're still subject to the same potential issues as anyone else with manufacturing overseas, but given the number of years they've been in business I'm not concerned about the timelines they've given me.That's always been my biggest concern with a lot of crowdfunding campaigns. They have a prototype, but haven't done the leg work to know exactly where it's being produced, how, and what issues might arise. They also have a tendency to trust the vendors delivery dates (bad bad idea).
Because I know it's been buried in the thread, to reiterate:
** Electronics **
- PCBs - Produced in Canada
- Parts - 95% North American 5% China
- Switches - Produced By Matias (Canada)
- Assembly - Done in house on our PCB line
** Hardware **
- Casing - Produced 20min from my daytime job office
- Hardware - Canadian Vendors
- Keycaps - Produced by SP, painted and laser etched in house
** Packaging **
- Produced locally (boxes) & in house (inserts)
- Packed locally
I also have a minimum of two backups for each vendor, including if something happens with our in house equipment.
Are Matias switches really produced in Canada, or are those produced in China? To my understanding, Matias does all their production in China. They might assemble in Canada.
So a thought has occured to me. I'll be in Seattle from the 9th - 11th, and Portland from the 12th - 17th. I also may or may not have a full prototype with me. Would anybody in these areas be interested in a hands on? I can't promise a fully working unit yet (firmware & some hardware troubles), but it will be completely assembled and is what I would consider a near production ready design on the case design.
Is it possible to install MX switches on the PCB? Never tried matias before :|it seems to be possible:
Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads.I'm curious too. I see only two options:
So a thought has occured to me. I'll be in Seattle from the 9th - 11th, and Portland from the 12th - 17th
Can you clarify something on the switches AcidFire: I love Mattias' switches and their design; will these MX compatible switches produced by them use the same design as Mattias' switches except with a MX stem or is it a clone of a MX switch entirely, eschewing Mattias' switch designs entirely? Assuming it uses Mattias' design, will it be the quiet click or click based type? Also, do you know when/if Mattias will sell just the MX compatible switches themselves? I would love to order some of them myself if possible.This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.
Is it possible to install MX switches on the PCB? Never tried matias before :|it seems to be possible:Ok, I need to clarify on the switches. they are not ALPS switches, they are a Cherry MX compatible that Wil be produced by Matias. That means the same pinning, the same dimensions and the same stem as a Cherry MX. it also means the springs are replaceable just like a Cherry MX as well.
This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.Actually, the post above mostly deals with the form factor and the actuation force. Yakitysax seems interested in the innards (clicky, tactile, etc.).
Is there any more information available about these switches? It sounds like they’re clone Cherry MX switches, which Matias is handling the manufacturing for... have they announced anything about this publicly? Do you know whether the switches are internally (nearly) identical to MX switches, or are they internally set up differently, and only compatible in pinout, outer housing dimensions, and keycap mount?No, much of this is in direct response to questions/concerns from me. The switches are still very early in the design stage, but from what I understand they'll be very close to the Cherry mechanically, with some much needed modifications that Cherry has been lacking since the start. As I've mentioned before, I can't say more past that at this time but know that if the Matias produced switches aren't up to snuff (and I seriously doubt that'll be a problem) I have a backup plan in place.
Optional RGB backlighting IIRC.There will be backlighting, but I think that the RGB backlighting will be for a revision. The first kickstarter should be for a single-color backlighting, if I'm not mistaken.
additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)As said before, no, you won't need any software on the computer, you just have to plug the keyboard and it'll work. You can do you configuration at home (and you may not even need a software, anyway, you may be able to upload the layers with a card reader (?) )
Optional RGB backlighting IIRC.There will be backlighting, but I think that the RGB backlighting will be for a revision. The first kickstarter should be for a single-color backlighting, if I'm not mistaken.additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)As said before, no, you won't need any software on the computer, you just have to plug the keyboard and it'll work. You can do you configuration at home (and you may not even need a software, anyway, you may be able to upload the layers with a card reader (?) )
That being said, considering the internal storage, you may have a problem for an exam. You could program the keyboard so that when you type a keyword in an editor, the keyboard will past any wall of text you entered previously. I guess that may be a problem with some kind of exams.
I admit I toyed with the idea of putting man pages and cheat sheets inside the keyboard... When you're not at home and don't have an internet connexion, that can be handy.
I just found out about this project and love everything about it. I can't wait to get my hands on one.
Going to keep my eyes on this thread and the crowd funding page.
I've gone through most of the pages in this thread but I couldn't find a crowd funding page link. I'm definitely interested in getting a kit or two.Not yet... I think AcidFire is really adamant about having a device as close to perfect as possible before launching the funding campaign. A lot of people here must be longing for the campaign to start, but if he need the time to do some final tweakings, let be it.
Well if you're good enough you can still hack the exam session and put your internet back on so....I agree, I just wanted you to be aware of the possible issue.
as long as they are not aware that the baby have an internal storage they shouldnt be on my ass, we'll see.
I agree, I just wanted you to be aware of the possible issue.Computers used for exams are the same that we used everyday (mac actually), every data is store on the server so we log with our normal session or with the exam session and the server sync the file, since everything is connected you can always find your way in : B
(If it's possible to get the internet back on computers used for serious exams, I think they should see to replace their sysadmin, though ^_^)
AcidFire, I hope this is not too forward, but I am curious to know if you are open to releasing the design files for the case you are working on for the Nexus keyboard.If I understand you correctly, good news, AcidFire is kind enough to develop everything as open source / open hardware if I'm not mistaken.
[...] Everything is (and forever will be) Open Source. Unfortunately some of the tools I'm using aren't (Altium for electronics & SolidWorks for mechanical) but the choice was made for a faster development cycle. That being said, all the source files will still be released and in a multitude of formats as well. [...] Everything currently lives on a private repo and will be pushed to the public one once the first round of files & firmware are ready to go.
It is the most brilliant one I have seen to dateI agree heartfully, and I can't wait for some news...
I'm considering taking the individual key PCBs I've already designed for testing, and looking at doing something similar to the FPC connectors I'm using now. Failing that, I'll probably take the Kinesis route since the cost of flex PCBs has come down quite a bit.I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads.I'm curious too. I see only two options:
* doing it like Kinesis with a bent PCB (they have a patent for this but it may be expired now)
* doing it like Maltron and that means hand wiring the matrix
I'm trying the Maltron approach here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.msg1423071#msg1423071
Hey Acidfire, are you going to be near Grande Prairie at any time in the near to distant future?Unfortunately nothing that I'm aware of, but I do have family in both Edmonton and Fort Mac so if that changes I'll let you know :)
I'd love to have a longing look at one of these setups!
Can you clarify something on the switches AcidFire: I love Mattias' switches and their design; will these MX compatible switches produced by them use the same design as Mattias' switches except with a MX stem or is it a clone of a MX switch entirely, eschewing Mattias' switch designs entirely? Assuming it uses Mattias' design, will it be the quiet click or click based type? Also, do you know when/if Mattias will sell just the MX compatible switches themselves? I would love to order some of them myself if possible.
Unfortunately, we're still in the same state with the switches until I can fund the development of them. I will say however that the final board supports both Cherry & Matias existing footprints, so no matter what the outcome is with the custom switches, we still have plenty to fall back on. As for the custom switches themselves, the plan is for them to debut with me/Multiplxd to start, but we'll also be selling them seperately from the boards at the same prices you can currently get them at (unless there's an unforseen premium from Matias). So don't worry, you'll be able to get ahold of them.This is has been answered several times in the thread. Last time *5* posts above you. People, learn to read, please.Actually, the post above mostly deals with the form factor and the actuation force. Yakitysax seems interested in the innards (clicky, tactile, etc.).
-snip-
Sorry for the question if it has been already asked (too many pages...) : will this baby come with backlighting? was looking for the backlit pcb for the ergodox but hey, this will do just as fine, and when will we be able to purchase? (my keyboard is dead so....)Yes it will. Currently it's single color, though with the new switch design and a transparent housing, RGB is very much a possibility. In the meantime I'm currently exploring options with bicolor 3mm LEDs as well as the flat 5mm RGB which are damn close to fitting the standard cherry profile.
additionnal : do i need to run a software on my computer or is the code within a ship or something? ( cannot launch anything during exam, just wanna know if i can bring it or not)
Thanks!
Hey I tried to sign up for your other forum it keeps giving me the same errors:I'll have to look to see if I can tweak that error message, basically you'll get it when trying to register a common/normal name as that's spambot 101. If you happen to get this message be patient as I have to approve accounts on a case by case basis.
Sorry, you must wait longer to create an account.
Something went wrong. Please try again or contact the administrator.
Anyway, I'm super excited about your project having recently stumbled upon it. I'm curious too as to how you might go about implementing the bowled keypads. Anyway keep up the good work and I'm soon at some point I'll be gleefully hurling a small pile of money in your direction just as soon as you give us the chance.
Sincerely yours
I've been hunting for a replacement for my Logitech G13. This looks like it could be the ticket if I can just order and use the left hand board. Cherry switches will be a nice change from the G13 to game on.For simplicity's sake we were looking at only offering full kits (as was recommended to me by experience crowd funding folk) for the initial campaign, but we've had so many requests for single sides that we're now looking at how we'll do it, ie kit only, assembled only, etc etc. But we'll do what we can to make it happen.
I should clarify, I'm not chasing perfect, just reasonable (and manufacturable!) ;). I've seen far too many people release projects too early in the development cycle resulting in hostility towards the project by the final release and general negativity towards the guys producing it. When it's finally up for funding, it's because I have everything lined up and I know without some kind of act-of-god disaster, I can deliver when I promise (or sooner).I've gone through most of the pages in this thread but I couldn't find a crowd funding page link. I'm definitely interested in getting a kit or two.Not yet... I think AcidFire is really adamant about having a device as close to perfect as possible before launching the funding campaign. A lot of people here must be longing for the campaign to start, but if he need the time to do some final tweakings, let be it.
Still, can't wait ^_^
No real guesses from the masses, I think. It's close, though. As long as perfection doesn't defeat good enough...With you on that one, Arthur C Clark's short story Superiority says it rather well.
I talked to Acidfire briefly, I don't think it will... It does sound like he wants to ensure that everything is ready for production before starting up the campaign, though.Haste makes waste. And if I understood Acidfire correctly on the Axios forum, he is really aiming at making a good campaign with some extras.
Agreed... but then you can also say "the early bird gets the worm"
The Matias Ergo Pro isn't nearly as cool, but it is likely to be out first... Although, it is easy to argue that is a different market.
-JEEP
Joe Peterson
The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all. It also doesn't tent as much as I'd like. It also doesn't do anything to lessen the work of your pinky fingers. Finally, I've read Amazon reviews of their other keyboards, and got the impression there were some quality control issues (one person received three bad keyboards in a row) compounded by lackluster customer support (users never receiving a response from support or getting bad info), which would make me hesitate to buy a keyboard from them.For what it’s worth, this is contrary to my experience or the experience of other people I know. I think Matias’s build quality is in general quite solid, and their customer support is pretty friendly and willing to do what they can to make things right when problems arise. Edgar Matias himself is very accessible via twitter and email, and is active in soliciting feedback and discussion here on Geekhack.
I'm more concerned with AcidFire having competition from Keyboard.io, although they're also still at the drawing board from the looks of things. Showed what looked like a finished design in aluminium and wood, but I later read the aluminum was a no-go, because it made the keyboard as heavy as an entire laptop. Whoops! The somewhat butterfly shape might also be a bit of a tough sell (for men, at least).Why “concerned”? Seems like the more good options there are for people to get more comfortable typing experiences, the better. Between the Maltron, the Kinesis Advantage, keyboard.io, the Matias ErgoPro, the Truly Ergonomic, the Ergodox, etc., there is suddenly a great variety of options for people with different hand shapes and preferences. I think the whole ergonomic keyboard market has lots of room to expand, and giving people more options (some fully scuplted, some programmable, some portable, some similar to standard keyboards, some with many extra keys, some with few keys) helps ensure that customers looking to avoid injuries and improve comfort and efficiency can find something that works for them.
The Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all.I think that a staggered layout can be ergonomic (to some extent) if you don't use it the usual way (and remap it), as long as the left part is modified to be a mirror version of the right part.
Maltron is 3D and matrix. But while it has many additional keys, these are not accessible without moving my entire hand (I do not have one, I just look at its photos). It has full value function keys, so if you use them rarely, they can be reused. The deal-breaker is that it is not programmable.It *is*, if you make a custom order. I think I've seen that option listed somewhere at their website.
With only 6 columns for the right hand, all these keys need to be relocated: equal/plus, backspace, closing square bracket/closing curly brace, backslash/pipe, enter and (assuming a 1.75u right shift) the extra function key.
Is there a prospective key mapping for this keyboard?There's a forum to discuss layouts on the official forum, although it's quite quiet now.
Any thought as to an additional column of pinky keys? Yes, extra pinky keys are not ergonomic, but they are friendlier to a computer programmer with 35 years of QWERTY touch typing experience. :)As I said before, should it have been my own project, I would have put this additional column, just because after years of ISO-105 (with THREE columns at the right of the right pinkie column, even FOUR on laptops), I find having only one a bit unusual and a possible waste of options.
And so on. Regarding price, I believe that the keyboard is one of my most importart tool. Even if it costs $500 (which is not true) that would be still less than the price of a single good monitor.I agree, although there has been quite decent and cheap monitors. I stayed far away from LCD monitors for a long time because of color rendition, but recently, I've bought 22" eIPS from LG for ~150$ which are really, really good for their price (at least, as a monitor for work, heavy gaming may be an issue with the latency, but you can't get low latency AND good colors)
the thumb clusters aren't just about space, enter, backspace & delete though. they're perfect for modifier keys, and with a decent programmable board that can include layer toggles too. so just by holding a thumb key down your entire board can be re-arranged. my ergodox setup gives me numpad and F keys with one button and a bunch of handy symbols and useful Vim keys with another. it keeps you nicely glued to the home keys :)Completely agree with that. And while I really, really don't like Vim (probably discovered it too late to change my habits to such a degree), I think having arrows near the center row is great, so I have indeed a layer with arrows + Page up/down + home + end on the center row/just above.
I'm surprised to hear this as well, given the excellent communication I've had with them. As for the staggered layout, from the conversation I had with them it basically comes down to the law of averages and as we've talked about time and again, makes for a less intimidating purchase for someone. Thankfully after meeting lots of people at the last couple of events, more and more people seem to be willing to make the change for their health :DThe Matias Ergo Pro uses a staggered layout, which is NOT ergonomic at all. It also doesn't tent as much as I'd like. It also doesn't do anything to lessen the work of your pinky fingers. Finally, I've read Amazon reviews of their other keyboards, and got the impression there were some quality control issues (one person received three bad keyboards in a row) compounded by lackluster customer support (users never receiving a response from support or getting bad info), which would make me hesitate to buy a keyboard from them.For what it’s worth, this is contrary to my experience or the experience of other people I know. I think Matias’s build quality is in general quite solid, and their customer support is pretty friendly and willing to do what they can to make things right when problems arise. Edgar Matias himself is very accessible via twitter and email, and is active in soliciting feedback and discussion here on Geekhack.
It's interesting you bring this up. I've met with Jesse & Kaia (Keyboard.io) and have talked with Steve (VP of Matias) and the common thought is that the more there is on the market, the better for everybody and the more likely you are to find something to fit your needs.I'm more concerned with AcidFire having competition from Keyboard.io, although they're also still at the drawing board from the looks of things. Showed what looked like a finished design in aluminium and wood, but I later read the aluminum was a no-go, because it made the keyboard as heavy as an entire laptop. Whoops! The somewhat butterfly shape might also be a bit of a tough sell (for men, at least).Why “concerned”? Seems like the more good options there are for people to get more comfortable typing experiences, the better. Between the Maltron, the Kinesis Advantage, keyboard.io, the Matias ErgoPro, the Truly Ergonomic, the Ergodox, etc., there is suddenly a great variety of options for people with different hand shapes and preferences. I think the whole ergonomic keyboard market has lots of room to expand, and giving people more options (some fully scuplted, some programmable, some portable, some similar to standard keyboards, some with many extra keys, some with few keys) helps ensure that customers looking to avoid injuries and improve comfort and efficiency can find something that works for them.
My expectation is that both keyboard.io and this Axios project are going to discover that manufacturing and distributing things at scale is a lot harder than it seems from outside, and costs a lot. I hope they both make it to market, and ASAP, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if it takes both of them at least another 8–12 months to ship a product, or if their products end up in the $200–300 range.
There's a forum to discuss layouts on the official forum, although it's quite quiet now.I know I've been terrible for keeping the forums updated, I've been swamped at work and at home with development. I'll try to get on more ;)
There will probably be an "example" layout (at least for people new to ergonomics keyboards), but I'm pretty sure that many potential buyers have already their own layout, even on an ISO keyboard. Even US-QWERTY layouts are probably not so common, especially with Dvorak, Colemak and so on.+1 on this, and while I have been working on the default layouts I haven't quite finished yet. I'll try to share what I have so far soon so I can start collecting feedback.
--snip--
That being said, this discussion on layouts is really interesting, and if you have time, please consider registering the axios forum so that we can discuss layouts there without bothering too much people here just waiting for news about the campaign (one of the reasons of the official forum is to allow layouts and firmware discussions)
And so on. Regarding price, I believe that the keyboard is one of my most importart tool. Even if it costs $500 (which is not true) that would be still less than the price of a single good monitor.I agree, but much of the original goals of this project were to help not only the developers/programmers/keyboard wizards out there, but the average office person as well who can't justify a $500~ board to HR (which is frightening tbh). That being said, there are a few upgrades down the road for those who are heavy keyboard users who want to invest more into their tools ;)
Hey, guys. As I just watched another Ergodox group buy pass me by on Massdrop, I was wondering how this project is going. Haven't seen any updates in a few weeks, Acidfire. How are things coming?
As for the staggered layout, from the conversation I had with them it basically comes down to the law of averages and as we've talked about time and again, makes for a less intimidating purchase for someone.I think they could make at least a tiny step, and while keeping the staggered layout, making it symmetric. The staggered layout is really only awful for the left hand. There's no valid reason for having a non-symmetric layout, when we have symmetric hands.
I know I've been terrible for keeping the forums updated, I've been swamped at work and at home with development. I'll try to get on more ;)Oh, I wasn't thinking about you at all when I was writing that. It's just that the layouts discussions will probably become more heated when we are closer to release. The fact that the forums are quite now is not a problem, I just wanted to warn him that replies could be a little slow, but I'm sure that several people beside me would still read his post there and reply.
I agree, but much of the original goals of this project were to help not only the developers/programmers/keyboard wizards out there, but the average office person as well who can't justify a $500~ board to HR (which is frightening tbh).When keys can be close to 1$ and some manufacturers have to use tricks like bended circuits, I don't really find this frightening... But at this price, you'd want a product as close to perfect as possible: really good ergonomics, durability, good materials, customizable, etc.
As things seem to on this project, this little breakthrough snowballed into another; the connecting piece. (snip)Seems really nice... Can't wait to see it real!
I think they could make at least a tiny step, and while keeping the staggered layout, making it symmetric. The staggered layout is really only awful for the left hand. There's no valid reason for having a non-symmetric layout, when we have symmetric hands.There’s a perfectly valid reason: it’s what people are used to.
Most of the time, some of the decisions the keyboard builders make no sense. For example, most of the time with split layouts, 'b' key is on the left side. While most users are right-handed and would feel the 'b' key more at ease on the right side.'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on. However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.
Not almost a century, but over 130 years now. Striking TGB with the left index finger and YHN with the right one is already recommended in Ms. Longley's Type-writer lessons (1882).QuoteMost of the time, some of the decisions the keyboard builders make no sense. For example, most of the time with split layouts, 'b' key is on the left side. While most users are right-handed and would feel the 'b' key more at ease on the right side.'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on. However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.
Koren, how a staggered layout could be finagled to create an ergonomic setup doesn't change the reality of the Matias Ergo Pro and its standard staggered layout.I fully agree with this (and with most, if not all, of the rest of your post, in fact).
There’s a perfectly valid reason: it’s what people are used to.From a commercial point of view, I agree, it's a perfectly valid one. I was speaking of "valid" reasons that doesn't involve habits. Should have been more clear on that.
'B' is equally far from both home row positions. There’s no a priori obvious side for it to be on.That's true, but right-handed people usually flex far more easily their right forefinger inwards than their left one (it's a thing that bothered me a bit when I used a split keyboard for the first time, and when I discussed this with other people, I haven't found many counter-example of this).
However, typing schools have been teaching people to use their left index finger for the 'B' key for almost a century now, so if one side has to be picked, we might as well follow convention.Indeed, except that's not a universal rule. Most "schools" suggest this, though.
The one that annoys me is the '6' key, which is clearly closer to the left hand, but often gets stuck on the right side of a split keyboard.Yes, I agree, and it's for the very same reason : over F is R, over R is 4 (left forefinger). Over J is U, over U is 7 (right forefinger). If you ignore the staggering when you set the finger rules, 6 becomes "closer" to the right forefinger.
Not almost a century, but over 130 years now. Striking TGB with the left index finger and YHN with the right one is already recommended in Ms. Longley's Type-writer lessons (1882).As I said above, I know, and I disagree with TGB being a column that should be reached on the left forefinger. And some typing schools also disagree.
The one that annoys me is the '6' key, which is clearly closer to the left hand, but often gets stuck on the right side of a split keyboard.
Ironically, it was when I first started using an "ergonomic" keyboard (Microsoft Natural) that I was forced to start using the right hand for the 6. Now I've stuck with that stupid habit ever since.There is an "ergonomic" keyboard from Microsoft with the "6" on the right side?
The Kinesis Advantage has 6 on the right. I like this and it feels natural to have half the number keys on the left and half on the right hand. It makes sense for symmetrical keyboards IMO.I'm leaning toward a 1-5 / 6-0 layout on the Axios, too, I'm not confortable with an unbalanced layout for numbers, indeed.
Hey I'm coming to this thread really late, but I wanted to say how much I'm thrilled at what I'm seeing here! Little background now if you'll bear with me - it explains how I got here.Welcome indeed.
I'm a database developer and spend a helluva lot of hours coding, documenting, and emailing. That's 8-10 hours a day (not counting computer use on my own time.) I'm a decent touch typist and on the high end do about 95wpm. I'm a LONG time user of Microsoft Natural keyboards, with the 4000 being my main at home and work for quite a few years now. I'm aware of how horrible the switches are compared to good mechanical switches, mainly because a coworker/friend of mine let me try out his 2 mechanical keyboards the other day. Basic layouts with the 10-key, one using Cherry Blues and the other Cherry Browns. Liked them both. Was like going back to typing in mud on the Microsoft keyboard :( I've always really liked the layout on the MS ergonomic keyboards so I thought it shouldn't be *too* hard to find something like that, but with good switches. I had no idea what I was getting into when I started my research.
Long story short, I've looked at just about every ergo keyboard out there including a lot of long since discontinued ones (not paying $1000+ for a 15 year old used keyboard ;) ) I went to /r/mechanicalkeyboard and geekhack.org here and deskthority.net and a slew of resellers and manufacturers. The Truly Ergonomic and the Kinesis Advantage (which I was already vaguely aware of) seem close, but have some major issues for me personally. I was about to give up, but one more search led me to a guy's blog where he essentially built his own Ergodox (sourced it all himself, cut his own acrylic layers, etc.) and he was saying it was *almost* perfect, but not quite right. He then dropped a little line about something that was the closest to what he wanted to see with a link to this thread.
*BAM* - I read all 50 pages in this thread and hot damn my days or searching and research have paid off! I didn't know it before today, but this is what I've actually been looking for all along. :)
I was cringing at the thought of spending $200-300 on a good ergonomic mechanical keyboard as my first such device because nothing I had been looking at was quite right and I would have been spending a lot of money on something that I knew wasn't right, but might have been my only option. I don't have that same reluctance about this project - I swear it really does seem to be exactly what I'm after.
Sorry for going on an on here. Wanted to really convey how awesome this project is for me. I've signed up to be notified when the project launches and I'm following this thread, plus the Axios forums :)
Fantastic work, Acid! Consider me another enthusiastic supporter ready to throw money at this when it's ready.
Note: honestly, I did have a real mechanical keyboard before now since the first PC I built was a parted together 8088 with of course a mechanical keyboard a long, long time ago ;)
Hairball, there's nothing wrong in getting another ergonomic keyboard...Oh so you're saying I should get a kinesis *and* the Axios, right? ;)
Actually the biggest problem I have with the layout of the kinesis advantage is how they handled the arrow keys.I like them the way they are on kinesis. I know one guy who bought kinesis just because of arrow keys. He was getting a pain in fingers because of using the inverted T arrow keys a lot.
Yes, get a few such boards, that way you can swap easily when you need a change.Oh just "get a few such boards" you say. What am I, made of money? hehe I'd love to have the Kinesis Advantage, the Truly Ergonomic and the Ergodox while I wait for the Axios to come along!
Actually the biggest problem I have with the layout of the kinesis advantage is how they handled the arrow keys. I use those a lot and having them split between hands would drive me nuts.
I do use the function keys, but could deal with the non-mechanical nature of the current version.
If you use Kinesis Advantage - or I guess any other split keyboard - than you have to learn touch typing anyway. Or at least something similar to touch typing :) Fortunately, it is very easy to learn it on this keyboard. Now, if you touch type, than it does not make any difference where are the keys, if they are easily reachable. And they are! If you look at the Kinesis Advantage, they are pressed with the two stronger fingers and they are near to the base line. The physical arrangement planned for Axios looks nicer, but it means that arrows are pressed with the weaker fingers, including the overloaded pinky. Moreover, the left arrow is farther a bit, but the down arrow is farther by a complete row, compared to Kinesis Advantage.Well I'm a touch typist, but I'm not seeing how that helps with the altered arrow keys. I'm sure I could train myself to use them the way they are laid out on the Kinesis, but at least in concept it seems weird to me. I get the column vs. staggered keys, the key wells, thumb keys, etc.
I tried to touch type with the F keys on Kinesis but I cannot. It is a complete catastrophe. And if only the F1-12 have the rubber keys... But the ESC is also there and the layout switch too.Ouch that bad? I wasn't paying enough attention and didn't realize ESC was there, too. I need to find one to demo, but I don't see any resellers in my area.
Ouch that bad? I wasn't paying enough attention and didn't realize ESC was there, too. I need to find one to demo, but I don't see any resellers in my area.
a common tactic amongst us vim users is to map caps lock to be escape. this is possible with any old keyboard when using the right software, but with the kinesis you can just map whatever you want to wherever you want it, so this old trick is exceedingly simple. similarly i have my cursors all in a row at the bottom of my right hand and the brackets & braces on the left as mentioned earlier.
the only real problem with the kinesis for remapping is that it doesn't have proper support for layers in the way that firmwares like the ergodox or tmk do - there is the keypad button, but that one is the only non-remappable button, it's on a rubber key, only supports toggle switching not momentary, and is only a single layer option. my dox has one momentary layer key on my left thumbcluster that gives me a numpad on the right hand and F-keys on the left, and a different one on the right cluster to give me quick access to a bunch of handy programming symbol characters and stuff on or around the home row. i miss that when i'm on the kinesis. it's the main area where the dox or axios wins out over the kinesis.
Mind sharing that layout? Asking because I am curious how that looks.what, the ergodox layout? you can see the source here https://github.com/eviltobz/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/tobz-custom.c (https://github.com/eviltobz/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/tobz-custom.c) i think that's pretty much what i'm running at the moment. it's from a very old version of ben's partial rewrite code. As a quick overview, the aforementioned momentary layers are available with any of the basic permanent layers. a combination of momentaries puts it into admin mode which is where the bootloader key is, along with layer switches to change the basic operation. it defaults to a colemak layout for osx, but can be switched to a windows optimised version (basically just swapping a few modifiers around) and a qwerty version for games or if i let regular mortals use my sacred keyboard ;)
HaaTa's Keyboard Layout Language (https://www.writelatex.com/read/zzqbdwqjfwwf) appears to be a salvation at this point, if properly implemented.
Now only if the interested parties (USB HID standard body, keyboard and OS manufacturers) recognize that in 2014 keyboards should be able to send scan codes corresponding to Unicode code points instead of restricting keyboards to predefined sets, which are reminescents of the 8 bit code pages from the '80s...I agree heartfully, but I really doubt that'll happen anytime soon...
Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.I'm ready to order a set of sculpted keycaps for my future Axios keyboard, for this very reason, even if that means I'll miss some of the advantages of backlighting (if I want labeled keys), but I'm at lost to source the 1.5 (or 1.25?) keys on the Axios for most rows. Should you have any idea for this, I'm interested.
Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.
So... is it just us or is the whole world retarded? It's 7 billion of us and it seems we are the only "idiots" who realise the traditional keyboard is a piece of cr*p. Heck, just a simple symmetrical layout with some extra thumb keys and middle keys would make a massive difference. This is the sort of thing only a company like Apple, which was able to get away with a one-button mouse for too many years, might be able to step in and do, and then everyone else will start jumping off the Apple cliff like lemmings, as usual.
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.
TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.Couldn’t you have said that in a nicer (less snarky) way?
I’m pretty sure there are “proficient” typists who consistently use one finger per key, considering that typing schools have been training people to do that for a century.Are they, really? (geniously curious about that, I would be surprised if they do this, although there's been a lot of rules that doesn't make sense in many typing schools, so I probably shouldn't be surprised).
For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations. (Though my typing speed only tops out at about 100 WPM, so perhaps I can’t be considered “proficient”.)
dshk: From what I understand, the definition of “touch” typing just involves knowing where the keys are by touch rather than needing to find keys by eye, looking at the legends; to “touch type” doesn’t require any specific technique, beyond that. Still, there are ways to be more effective or less effective, and I’m sure many people use uncomfortable, slow, error-prone techniques.
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations.
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
Colemak doesn't put 'he' on the same finger. H is index and e is middle, you have 'hn' which would be index for both.Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
I guess the point is that in such situation it might be more efficient to move the whole hand and use "non-standard" fingering, instead of (a) slowing down, or (b) stretching the index finger from the home position.Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often.That was just an example... and there's not only english (when I'm typing japanese on azerty, I'm using 'yu' quite a lot, actually, and I could fill this page with common japanese words including 'yu') and others layouts can have different digrams on those keys.
Even for more common such combinations, like “tr”That's actually not really the same situation, and if I chose 'yu' over the more common 'tr' in english, that's because the hand don't move much to reach the 't' (other fingers could stay quite easily on the home position), but it moves more when you try to reach 'y'.
Really what those pairs highlight though is that QWERTY is a terrible layoutIndeed... Avoiding digrams on the same finger was my n°1 rule when I designed my own layout.
Besides, I only wanted to underline the fact that, at least for some people, fingers substitutions can make sense. And that's hardly a reason to consider that it isn't 'touch typing'.
I agree that if the same combination of fingers are consistently used for pressing the same combination of keys, then it is touch typing in every sense.Why does consistency have anything to do with it? Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.
Why does consistency have anything to do with it?For me the most important benefit of touch typing is that it does not cause distraction. If there is no consistency, than the brain must decide on which finger to use, and the need for a decision distracts from the real task I do.
Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.To be honest I feel that I accidentally diverted this topic to an offtopic subject, and I hoped that we can agree in this way, and return to Axios :)
Btw. I got a TrulyErgonomic for testing. So far I truly miss the thumb keys :(
Just signed up to say that I'm really excited about this project! I've been a user of Microsoft Natural keyboards for many years now and when I felt the urge to try a mechanical keyboard I was disappointed to see the limited selection of split keyboard options available. After doing some research and obsessing about getting an ErgoDox for a while, I stumbled upon this thread this morning and now I've got a new obsession! This is shaping up to be the perfect keyboard and I'll definitely be backing it. I'm really impressed with the care and dedication which has gone into its development.You sound just like me :) Long-time user of the MS Natural keyboards wanting the same sort of idea, but as a mechanical board. I was also disappointed to see the limited selection out there, but this project does seem to check all the boxes for me. Can't wait to see it move forward!
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?
I am wondering how AcidFire is doing, he hasn't posted in a while. And his own forum is getting spammed :(Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him. I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)
Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him. I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.
It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.Same here...
I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.
...I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.
I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.
I just learned about your awesome keyboard project in development. Up for you, Acidfire! Yes, we need something better than ergodox!Not particularly, and I think you'd be surprised at how well it would fit you hands. The whole reason we started down the road of an adjustable thumb cluster in the first place was the size difference between hands. Both my fiancee and a girl I work with have hands that are a full joint shorter than mine (their fingertips only reach the end of my 2nd row Phalanges) and with the thumb cluster brought right against the body and angled a bit, both found their thumbs resting in the center key which gives you an ideal reach to either side.
That said, I am really not sure that the thumb spacings will work for someone with smaller hands. I just decided to sell an ergodox almost immediately after I got it, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0
and the reason was that the thumb spaces were simply unacceptable to me.
[snip]
Do you feel that your current 3x3 thumb cluster is a bit too much work for the thumbs? Add to that you have to consider that thumbs are oriented differently from the rest of the fingers. It is still easier for thumbs to move INWARDS rather than horizontally up and down to trigger the keys on your tilted-horizontal 3x3 matrix. Methinks you can still tilt your thumb cluster at least 45 degrees.
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.Absolutely, that's one of the benefits of the modular design. It would take some tweaking of the layouts of course, but it's entirely possible to do.
I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).
The pointing device idea is good, but I just don't understand why manufacturers are no longer making the effort to research these. We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position!The problem with doing it with a trackball is size. Anything that will fit + sensors ends up being just a bit bigger than the blackberry trackballs which usually isn't all the comfortable to use. That being said, until I get the chance to explore it properly I won't rule it out either.
If only this could be incorporated on one of the thumb positions somehow! (Note that it doesn't have to be super accurate. It just needs to do regular mousing work. Remember, if you wanted some super mouse for CAD or professional gaming, ultimately you will still need to buy a real dedicated mouse.)
Good to hear of you, AcidFire....I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.
^^ this, I would like to see this as an extra as well. You are right switching between keyboard and mouse is not something that you want to do, but sometimes you have to. And I can't handle those little pointers in the middle of the keyboard. A bigger pad at a thumb would be interesting. You can give up one thumbkey for that pad, and you can map your mouse button action to any key that is comfortable.
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?
Yup, thats the idea. Between angle and distance from the main body, there is a fair bit of flexibility in the hand sizing.
-snip- We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position! -snip-
Still alive!
As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.
As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.QuoteGotta say those pics of the chair arm mounted Axios are sexy! Those mounts make it possible to have a seriously nice desk mounted base that could provide tenting and angle.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.
MoreStill alive!Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)
These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.
That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)
It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.
As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
Still alive!It is amusing/interesting that you have arrived at this same solution that I have been working on with a custom keyboard of my own that uses hall effect microjoysticks in it, motivated by recurring friction caused by how incompetently designed keyboards are and OS side key chording limitations. I am not surprised though with how creative and ambitious that you have been already in this design. I'm working on it at present when I have some time, and I'll report back to you once I have it implemented sanely. Surprisingly, out of the joysticks which are suitable for the embedded design arrived at, there is not a great deal of supply for them; additionally, the ones which incorporate a default joystick cap is not that comfortable, and there are a lot that I have tried which require too much force or are too insensitive for this purpose. It is definitely much trial and error finding ones that work here. This is so obviously the solution and logical conclusion of the trackpoints that IBM has utilized and such an effective solution to the problems of keyboarding design that it is shocking that none have done so in a manner which implements this logical conclusion.
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)
These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.
That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)
It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.
As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.
As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example).If you can get spares and they are easy to replace...
MoreStill alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-90.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-91.jpg)
These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.
That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-89.jpg)
It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.
As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-87.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-88.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-85.jpg)Show Image(http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-86.jpg)
Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.
As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike.
I think this is the thread I have watched the most in my life. Okay, okay, compared to a lot on here I haven't watched many, but I am very much enjoying the development of this project. Great work AcidFire! And I am only a little biased because I live in Calgary too :D. It was pretty funny how excited I was when I found that out; you know, hometown pride and all. And don't worry, no stalking inclinations here ;).
I would just like to say that I have gone through a decent number of pointing devices for my RSI symptoms, and the best option I have found is to use a trackpad with one hand in conjunction with performing mouse clicks/shortcuts on the keyboard with the other hand. I am currently trying to figure out how to mount the trackpad vertically above my Kinesis Advantage. Here is a link to the related GH post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0)
Maybe an option down the road for the Axios is to offer a mount that would position a trackpad vertically above the keyboard ;).
Personally I'm not interested in mouse emulators on a keyboard (I have a rather odd method of putting the mouse between the halves of my ErgoDox at the moment), but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example). Much more interested in seeing the current keyboard prototype in production, however ;)
@tups I'm with you, no mouse emulators (or an option to order without or disable it). Nothing can beat my Apple Magic Mouse.And that's why it'll be an optional addon instead of included with the kit. Everyone has their preference, hence Axios was designed to be adaptable ;)
In hindsight I really should have taken a less awkward looking photo, but as I mentioned previously the flex arm wasn't nearly ridged enough; everytime I bumped it the positioning would move. At some point I'll try and get better photos with a more solid setup.Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.
I think AcidFire addresses this himself by saying this is not the best example. But as a principle it is a very neat feature to have and it is not offered by similar devices. And although you are correct about the positioning, that still will be a personal preference about comfort. Even with all the features to make it ergonomic as possible, people will have setup that can be far from ideal because they think it feel better.
It is amusing/interesting that you have arrived at this same solution that I have been working on with a custom keyboard of my own that uses hall effect microjoysticks in it, motivated by recurring friction caused by how incompetently designed keyboards are and OS side key chording limitations. I am not surprised though with how creative and ambitious that you have been already in this design. I'm working on it at present when I have some time, and I'll report back to you once I have it implemented sanely. Surprisingly, out of the joysticks which are suitable for the embedded design arrived at, there is not a great deal of supply for them; additionally, the ones which incorporate a default joystick cap is not that comfortable, and there are a lot that I have tried which require too much force or are too insensitive for this purpose. It is definitely much trial and error finding ones that work here. This is so obviously the solution and logical conclusion of the trackpoints that IBM has utilized and such an effective solution to the problems of keyboarding design that it is shocking that none have done so in a manner which implements this logical conclusion.That'd be great, I'm always looking at different ways of implementing this sort of thing and how others do it as well. I spotted somewhere else on the forum (will have to dig up the thread) where they're using strain gauges to do something similar but my issue with the ibm trackpoint and the lack of give they have would probably stop me from using that sort of setup.
I've seen that on a few as well. Sometimes it's mechanical, others it's a lack of proper debounce/state tracking. When we're ready to get a feature like this going we'll be running them through jigs to ensure that whatever ships will at the very least perform like they should for what the part is rated for.but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example).If you can get spares and they are easy to replace...
Because all products I have with those wheels have had problems with them. After some moderate use, there's plently of issues (including left rotations that produce sometimes right movements). I'm curious if AcidFire's ones are of a higher quality.
@AcidFire, I like your work (and with me a lot of people: 120K times read already!). For what it's worth, I especially like the V-shaped model, the one that's called model-05-03 on this (http://"http://xahlee.info/kbd/axios_keyboard.html") page. I think this keyboard is unique for two main reasons:The v design is actually 15 degrees for each side, which I found to be a happy medium in terms of angles. For the initial run I'm trying to include parts that would allow you to join both halves and retain the adjustability. The only thing I'm currently having a hard time nailing down is adjustability in the angle between the halves. As for the single case design it hasn't been taken off the table yet, but I was advised (and rightly so I think) to focus on the current design first, get it out the door and then look at additional case options. That being said if the campaign does well enough backers may find an extra casing option included with their kits.
- It closes the gap between traditional keyboards and ergonomic keyboards. It looks less alien and allows persuading newcomers.
- The form factor of the keyboard allows for easy traveling, great for existing users of say Ergodox
The fact that left and right parts are fixed in one case should not be a problem. Just Google for images of Ergodox' on peoples desktop. Most of the people use their Ergodox in an angle of around 10~15ish degrees (a little wider than the model-05-03 proto). One size could fit all in this case. It may not be the most ergonomic solution (I can see that you are striving for the best solution), but hey, as long as 99% is using QWERTY on a traditional keyboard it sure improves things a lot!
Just my 5 cents. I know with 120K reads there are 120K opinions ;)
I wasn't a fan of the 1/1/1(/1?) configuration, hence settling on the 1.5/1.5/1, though there's the potential to release the other designs as swap in modules down the road if there's enough interest in them.Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike.This change seems good. After working on the ergodox, I keep complaining about the 1u/2u configuration. I want either 1/1/1 or 1.5/1.5.
...there are a few users who are local and once I've gotten the prototype to a level I feel confident having other people put their hands on we'll definitely do a sit down on a weekend.
The trackpad mounting is interesting, I hadn't seen that done before but due to the nature of the design I'm sure we could look at rigging something up down the road. Maybe when the hands on gathering happens you can bring your kinesis and show me how it works for you, I'd love to check out the concept.
On the development timeline side, we had a bit of an unfortunate incident last weekend:
Berserk that's an awesome thread, it's always really cool to see how these sorts of things get put together by other people. The cable bus between the parts is of particular interest. While we've looked at those cables, the issue of size became a major concern, since the lines that have to be run to both the thumb cluster and the f row cluster number up to 20. This could be reduced by adding either processors or io expanders, but of course this adds cost and in the case of the f-row there isn't enough space. Hence the FPC cables; they're more flexible, require less finishing (connector install) and they're smaller. The only down side is strain relief, but we should be able to tackle that.
I've also been working on the wrist rest since aside from niceties on the case, it's the only major outstanding issue. I'm going to be trying a version of the case with the wrist rest built in since the tented stand without it just isn't stable. It's taller at the back end of the main unit than a typical keyboard and without the wrist rest causes a more severe deviation than a typical keyboard. For those of you who are wanting a more streamlined version, I've also got a design for something that should be as thin or thinner than the ergodox that allows the rest to be removed. This design still allows for the distance of the thumb cluster to be adjusted, but only on a flat plane.
On the development timeline side, we had a bit of an unfortunate incident last weekend:Show Image(http://acidfire.ca/accident.jpg)
While it's been a rather painful week for all of us, my fiancee is suffering the worst and currently is home from work. Between physio and work around the house that she's unable to help with my development time is becoming severely limited, so if the updates are lacking in the next couple of weeks I apologize in advance. I'll keep trying to sneak in time wherever I can.
Ow man, get well soon. Take time to recover, with car accidents not all injuries are obvious right away, as described in detail by Berserkfan. Take your time to get used to driving again, it would be normal to feel scared when going on the road again.
Glad to see you back in action, Acidfire. Hope the fiancee and yourself are doing well and recovering back to 100%.I think I may end up with plates specifically for the difference switch types, however the PBS are actually a bit simpler to keep flexible.
Looking forward to the updated pics and design alterations.
Some thoughts on keyswitches. It may have been addressed earlier in the thread, but have you considered the Kailh cherry MX-compatible switches as an alternative to genuine cherry MX? I haven't used them (only felt them in the store), but they seem to be gaining popularity in some of the major brands of keyboards like Razer. I was just thinking maybe they'd be a more reasonable and reliable supplier than Cherry. Also: I'd be fine if you committed 100% to Mattias switches for the first version of the Axios, too. Rather than re-iterating the design to accomodate either/or MX or Mattias. I'd focus on one or the other (whomever can supply you the switches most reliably and cost effectively), but maybe you'll end up with one version of the boards for Mattias, and another for Cherry, when all is said and done. I do respect the drive to design for all possibilities and to make everyone happy. I am an engineer and also struggle with the "paralysis by analysis" but sometimes you just have to say "this is good enough".
Personally, I think most of us here will buy the keyboard regardless of the switch choice, even though there are a lot of strong opinions on switches here.
Also: what happened to the potential "Mattias designed and built Cherry MX-compatible switch" you had going on earlier? Did that fall through or is that still potentially on the table? That seemed like a tall order, but I was intrigued.
If you REALLY want a following, you should design your own new improved buckling spring switches! ;D
What about keycaps for a matias switch version? Scrounging alps compatible caps from old boards would surely be a hassle.Key caps I already have a source for, no need to scrounge ;)
3) Thumb cluster switch changesI think those 1u switches are indeed pretty much useless for typing, but I find them useful to toggle the keyboard behavior (The kind of thing a 'numlock' key can do on a normal keyboard). Maybe I wouldn't switch the 1u keys on both sides (especially since 10 leds seems a bit much when keys act as led themselves) but anything you'll do will be great, I'm sure!
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their place, I'm looking at using the space for a set of 5 RGB LEDs on each side for indicators
Key caps I already have a source for, no need to scrounge ;)If there's a change from MX-compatible to Matthias switches, I'm happy I haven't ordered a keycaps set in advance ^_^
So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.Does that mean first half of 2015 for the crowd-funding campaign to go live, plus like 6–12 months to finish production?
I understand that anything such as Buckling Springs would be out of the question, but are you planning on offering this in a Topre variation? Considering that this is one of (if not THE) most modular, customizable, and ergonomic keyboard design I've ever seen, it would be quite a shame if it didn't come in Topre's.It’s way way harder to make a custom Topre keyboard, because it requires substantial support directly from the Topre Corporation to make custom parts in the new layout. You can’t just buy separate switches and then build whatever you want. So my guess is that none of the new alternative keyboard projects is going to use Topre switches any time soon, and if you want to make it happen, you might want to go talk to Topre directly about how to make it work, since for the people designing new keyboards, it’s way too big a commitment of time/effort to be worth it, considering the high chance that they’ll just say “nope, sorry” or “come back when you have an order for 50000 units”.
. So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.
Welcome Back! :) I'm glad things are finally starting to get somewhat back to normal for you and your fiancee.I'm glad you like it. I've been flipping back and forth about the design and closed vs open, and was happy when I came up with a design that I think gives enough flexibility to let users pick what works for them. It's also handy that if you do go with the closed design, you can still remove the caps for easy cleaning.
I can only speak for myself, but:
- I'm beyond THRILLED about the option for an open (Corsair K70-style) keyboard design - SOOOO much easier to clean without necessarily having to pull keycaps (with three cats, that's a big plus!). I also just love the look - visually cleaner and (imho) more modern/attractive.
- As for the thumb cluster, my biggest hopes are/were that it has enough buttons within easy reach so that I can: Space with the left and Backspace with the right, plus program Ctrl, Alt & Shift keys in order to give my pinkies a break. Six buttons is plenty! That said, I had a thought; would a single, long key work for the third row, if the goal was to hit it with the heel of your thumb/edge of your palm, and not the end of your thumb? If so, they'd work great as Space/Backspace, or potentially even mod, function or layer keys depending upon user preference.I've tried using a long bar on the bottom row, and found I was striking it unintentionally when hitting the keys above it. The same rang true for the top row of 1u keys as well, I kept bumping the 1.5u below them unless I was specifically remembering not to.
- My personal switch preference is: Backlit Cherry MX > Backlit Matias > Cherry MX > Matias > Backlit Kailh > Kailh. I tend to use my PC in a dim room, and while I touch type, I don't exclusively touch type, so I want/need to be able to see what is what!I used to be a fan of Cherry as well, but the attitude of their sales staff has seriously soured me on them, especially in contrast to the folks at Matias who have been nothing short of amazing. From what I've seen from Jesse(obra) and the Keyboardio the Matias also seem to have a fantastic evenness to their backlighting since you can centralize the light source, while the RGB from Corsair still have the characteristic fade from one side to the other. And as you mentioned, because it's a full backlit board you'll have very few custom options anyways. As I mentioned previously however, I will be doing a Cherry MX kit as well for those who absolutely have to have them, I just can't do preassembled Cherry without an $80~ premium to account for the difference in the pricing of switches.
I love Cherry switches, but I'm open to trying Matias switches. Being limited for custom keycaps (I forget, would they have cherry stems?) would be a concern, but that's a pain for any backlit keyboard, realistically. As for the suggestion to check out Kailh by another member, I personally hope you don't. I haven't read many good things, just a few people with brand new boards that claim they don't have issues yet (whoopie!). I acknowledge that it's impossible to say whether many or all the negative comments are based more out of snobbery over a "made in China imitation" than truth.
TLDR: Only time will tell if Kailh switches are true switch contenders, or just a cheap (price/quality) knock-off.
That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.So I suppose the short answer is: First half of 2015.Does that mean first half of 2015 for the crowd-funding campaign to go live, plus like 6–12 months to finish production?
In any event, while some design features aren’t my personal cup of tea, I’m looking forward to seeing what these look like. The more alternative keyboard designs available, the better. All the best luck, I hope it goes smoothly!
To be honest I'd hadn't given it any thought, but as jacobolus pointed out Topre's are a bit more of a time/funding sink than I currently have the capacity for. That being said, as long as the dimensions work (and the CM Novatouch hints that they may) I definitely wouldn't rule it out.I understand that anything such as Buckling Springs would be out of the question, but are you planning on offering this in a Topre variation? Considering that this is one of (if not THE) most modular, customizable, and ergonomic keyboard design I've ever seen, it would be quite a shame if it didn't come in Topre's.It’s way way harder to make a custom Topre keyboard, because it requires substantial support directly from the Topre Corporation to make custom parts in the new layout. You can’t just buy separate switches and then build whatever you want. So my guess is that none of the new alternative keyboard projects is going to use Topre switches any time soon, and if you want to make it happen, you might want to go talk to Topre directly about how to make it work, since for the people designing new keyboards, it’s way too big a commitment of time/effort to be worth it, considering the high chance that they’ll just say “nope, sorry” or “come back when you have an order for 50000 units”.
That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.Well, I wish you all the best.
I'm curious, what design features aren't appealing to you?I really don’t want to sound like I’m bashing you, because I think every experimental design is great, we get to test out new ideas and see what works. For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachable, the columns aren’t staggered ideally, and the whole thumb section is too far away, and the way it tilts puts the switches at a worse position and angle (for me personally anyway) than when it’s just flat.
To be honest I'd hadn't given it any thought, but as jacobolus pointed out Topre's are a bit more of a time/funding sink than I currently have the capacity for. That being said, as long as the dimensions work (and the CM Novatouch hints that they may) I definitely wouldn't rule it out.CM Storm sunk a huge amount of time, effort, and resources into the Novatouch, and it’s a huge gamble for them that could be disastrous if it flops (I have no idea what their sales are like, I really hope their gamble pays off, because it’s nice to see more keyswitch alternatives in popular use). It’s certainly possible that you (or another small indy keyboard designer) could figure out a way to build a Topre version, especially if someone has friends at the Topre Corporation, or if a keyboard design turns out to be outrageously popular; it just seems unlikely to happen any time soon.
I really don’t want to sound like I’m bashing you, because I think every experimental design is great, we get to test out new ideas and see what works. For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachable, the columns aren’t staggered ideally, and the whole thumb section is too far away, and the way it tilts puts the switches at a worse position and angle (for me personally anyway) than when it’s just flat.I don't consider it bashing at all, it's the same sort of feedback that I had from the ergodox that started me on this project in the first place and why we do what we do here :)
I’m glad you’re making it though, because other people can then try it and report back on which aspects work for them.
CM Storm sunk a huge amount of time, effort, and resources into the Novatouch, and it’s a huge gamble for them that could be disastrous if it flops (I have no idea what their sales are like, I really hope their gamble pays off, because it’s nice to see more keyswitch alternatives in popular use). It’s certainly possible that you (or another small indy keyboard designer) could figure out a way to build a Topre version, especially if someone has friends at the Topre Corporation, or if a keyboard design turns out to be outrageously popular; it just seems unlikely to happen any time soon.This is the half of the reason why I backed off doing a new type of switch for the initial production (the other half being a potentially 6-8 month dev/production time, and that was the most optimistic). The money I'd have to invest for a potentially bad switch (doubtful with Matias at the helm admittedly) that if they didn't feel right or just took too long was just took much of a risk. I'm glad to see Cooler Master & Logitech taking these types of risks to help open up the market and provide viable alternatives to the Cherry MX.
3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their
I didn't think so. Topre did seem a bit outlandish. I ruled out buckling springs a long time ago, but I'm starting to see their reasonability. Do you see any future in using Buckling Springs (capacitive or membrane)? But I suppose BS switches would be even more difficult to obtain and utilize. I suppose a modern BS keyboard (especially Ergodox like) will just have to remain a fantasy. ;(Making a custom-layout Model M is basically impossible without ridiculous up front capital expense, and is probably never going to happen. Making a custom-layout Model F is possible as a DIY hobby project, but requires cannibalizing parts from an XT keyboard (or similar), so is not viable as a commercial product. If you want a custom-layout Model F, you’re going to need to design and build it yourself.
Well, I wish you all the best.Same here... Can't wait to invest money in this ^_^
For me personally, there are too many keys, with many of them unreachableWith threads here about 40% and boards with 122+ keys, you probably won't be able to design a "one fits all" ^_^ I'd say that there's not enough keys for me (I don't mind an additional pinkie column, I prefer moving the hand to combination of keys, and I can't put all the keys I use often on the current board... it's even worse now I have to find a way to relocate 6 keys ^_^)
I agree with these two. I have both an ergodox and a truly ergonomic.
I have programmed the left arrow key on the teck so it is a Fn key that I hold down with my thumb to turn the home row into arrows. So I don't even have to move my hand, I just press the thumbkey and J is left, K is down, L is right, and I is up. Also H is Home, ; is End, U is PgUp and O is PgDn.
My ergodox is set the same, using one of the thumbkeys.
I use dvorak so it's not actually those keys, but you get the idea.
I could not go back to a layout without such a setup anymore. It's so useful being able to navigate without moving your hand.
I am wondering what a complete kit minus key caps would runIf the keys use Matthias stern, you could probably spend more in custom keycaps than in the keyboard itself... They won't be easy to source, I fear.
The current design means the hand needs to move outwards by one key in order to operate the arrow keys with the above familiar fingering.You probably have to move your hands so far downwards that I don't think an outwards move matters so much.
It may be a bit late but in my opinion this would be more ergonomicYou're not late, but it's actually an older layout that was studied... It was changed to the current one (minux the keys replaced by LEDS) something around may 2015 if I remember well.
and a little cheaper (saves two keys)Please Stop Removing Keys ! ^_^
IIRC, one of the reasons for this cluster is to make the keyboard less strange to newcomers in the world of ergonomics keyboards.
C'mon, this keyboard was never aimed at the masses: for that the market is already saturated with so-called "professional" and "ergonomic" keyboards. Plus, I bet everyone following this thread can touch-type.My memory may serve me bad. I don't remember well the reason(s) for the "switch" of the layout. It's in the pages 30-40, it could be interesting to re-read this discussion.
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.I've been taught the basics of touch-typing when I was 10 at school. Using a neat program where a conveyor belt was bringing letters, and you had a trap in the middle that could catch the letter should you press the right key at the right moment. First, it was the keys on the home row, then you were working with the letters all over the board. It's something like 26 years in the past, but I can still see the yellow letters flowing on the blue background. ^_^
With the traditional QWERTY keyboard I had to read a typing course book to figure out which fingers should press which keys.There's different views about which fingers should be used for each key, and I'm not even convinced that there's a definitive finger that should be use on a key (like some really proficient typist, by the way). I created my "own" way to touch-type, although I read later my mother's books out of curiosity (that differ a bit from the usual suggestion, but I like them better because they are closer to symmetry, using for example middle finger for X).
I agree with these two. I have both an ergodox and a truly ergonomic.
Did you buy the ErgoDox after the TEK because you were looking for something better? How do the two compare (pros cons about both)?
I like to hit the left- and right-most keys (shift keys on a normal keyboard) with my palms, at the base of my pinkies, so I normally would map those to be the Enter key. Looking at the US version of the TEK, and also AcidFire's keyboard, these keys are slightly wider which means they may be easier to press this way by a range of users with varying hand sizes.
For me the centre column has always been (from top to bottom) Win key, Ctrl, Alt. On the ErgoDox there are two larger keys straddling the home row vertically, which is not the case on the TEK or AcidFire's keyboard, I wonder which one feels better in practice.
Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213437 Middle keys.png)Show Image(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98636804/Forums/GeekHack/2015-02-05-213534 Middle keys.png)
Also, could you comment on the enclosure? The ErgoDox one seems kind of boxy with those sharp corners, while the TEK one is curvier and somehow more "inviting", so to speak.
I have programmed the left arrow key on the teck so it is a Fn key that I hold down with my thumb to turn the home row into arrows. So I don't even have to move my hand, I just press the thumbkey and J is left, K is down, L is right, and I is up. Also H is Home, ; is End, U is PgUp and O is PgDn.
My ergodox is set the same, using one of the thumbkeys.
I use dvorak so it's not actually those keys, but you get the idea.
I could not go back to a layout without such a setup anymore. It's so useful being able to navigate without moving your hand.
That's really interesting. I did a prototype layout yesterday on a Japanese HHK2 Lite which has a bunch of extra thumb keys. I moved all keys of the right hand to the right by one key, so I get an extra column in the centre which now contains Ctrl, Alt and Win (so it is basically a poor-man's TEK).
When I press and hold the left thumb modifier key I get numbers under my left hand and arrow keys under my right. I am finding key combinations such as Shift+Home (which on a normal keyboard only involve two keys) hard to get the hang of, because of the extra modifier key involved. I think my problem is that the way I've set it up I have to press Shift and the modifier with the same hand, the way you've set yours up you are probably pressing the modifier with the right thumb and Shift with the left hand, am I right?
I've been using layers for symbols and numbers for many years (since 2002 actually), but I always had my arrow keys mapped to the numbers row, so maybe I have grown used to the immediacy of dedicated arrow keys vs using a layer for that. Therefore I'd like to hear about your adaptation experience.
3) Thumb cluster switch changes
The more I look at the design, the top three 1u switches on each side seem to be counter intuitive to the end goal of reducing strain by reducing travel, so I'm experimenting with dropping them. In their place, I'm looking at using the space for a set of 5 RGB LEDs on each side for indicators, since dropping the switches & caps helps to balance out the cost while putting them in a nice visible position. For those of you asking for some kind of display, this would also make for a very handy mounting point.
I have enough space left over to add the missing 3 keys from the thumb cluster to the empty space not set aside for the connectors.
Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead? I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.
Well, you can count me among those who registered an account to comment on this amazing project. :]Awesome, glad to have you aboard! If you have it, would you mind sharing the blog post where you found the link?
AcidFire, first of all, your commitment to open source and to accommodating those with disabilities is commendable and inspiring. Not to mention how inspirational this project as a whole is: reading through the thread made me want to get out and make things!
I found a link to this thread on a blog post regarding the ErgoDox, and referencing the original ErgoGP design. Since learning about the ErgoDox a few months ago, I've been excited about potential modding capability, but I think the Axios's modular design will be even better, allowing the creation of custom modules (and releasing them open source for anyone who wants, of course :] ). Now I'm watching this thread, subscribed to the crowd supply, following on Twitter, and among those eagerly awaiting each update!
So one row of 1u keys has been moved from the thumb cluster to the top of the keyboard, and replaced by indicator LEDs? It seems like the keys would also be difficult to reach at the top of the keyboard. Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead? I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys. I'm interested to hear some opinions regarding that from people who have ergonomic keyboards (I don't).I probably should have been more clear about the strain I mentioned regarding removing the top row of thumb keys. While they're not completely terrible when the board lays flat, when tented and dropped they introduce a fairly severe ulnar deviation (http://www.ergovancouver.net/wrist_movements.htm) and given that the core of this project is ergonomics above all else it goes directly against the device's goals. Even as a key you'd occasionally strike by lifting your hands, you're now introducing Pronation strain (http://www.ergovancouver.net/wrist_movements.htm) as you rotate your wrist around to hit it. With the keys in their new home, it's a shoulder-elbow-wrist movement similar to lifting and striking the F row, or a mouse movement with a substantial reduction on strain.
Anyway, I'm sure we'll see the all-key thumb cluster module down the road, if not as a stretch goal for the crowd funding campaign, then soon thereafter. I for one wouldn't mind having one all-key thumb cluster and one indicator LED one (the opinion has already been expressed that 5 LEDs is more than enough for many people). That's the best part about this system!
I am curious to see how the new hotkeys cluster looks like when tented. Good job on improving your design for manufacturing, most people don't realize how important this is, so kudos on that. I always liked this total approach of you and I am very anxious to get hold on one of these, but I am also willing to wait because I think you could produce something very nice.I am as well, I'm still learning the assembly side of Onshape so modeling the tented outcome has not been happening for me. That being said, I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of the way it all looks flat, with the exception of the two sides connected. Hopefully I should have all my parts printed by the end of the weekend and we'll see it in the flesh.
AcidFire, I may have thought one second about cursing you for making me adapt again my layout, but...Ha I wouldn't blame you, I've mentally smacked myself a couple of times each time I change it because it means I also have to update the PCBs as well. I've learned to wait and handwire until I'm satisfied with the end result.
But it's just great, as usual. Can't wait, really.
Using the available space on top to put back the buttons from the thumb cluster is nice (it's maybe even better for me, in fact). I'm curious to see how the "f-keys" add-on can be secured in place when folded strongly enough, but I'm sure it'll be nice.
Thanks for all your hard work, and I hope that the accident is just a bad memory for your family now.
Isn't it better to have the extra keys on the thumb cluster, even if they're secondary to the other two rows? Perhaps moving the LEDs to the top of the keyboard instead? I was under the impression that having more thumb cluster keys is optimal, because it allows you to have more keys for changing layers while keeping the rest of your fingers on the home keys.The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.
If you have it, would you mind sharing the blog post where you found the link?
The third row on the thumb clusters was quite difficult to reach, anyway. You probably can't use them during "normal" typing. I think "out of reach" keys still have their use (for a pause key, a behavior-tweaking key, etc.), so that's great we don't lose those, I think.
I probably should have been more clear about the strain I mentioned regarding removing the top row of thumb keys...
For those who absolutely must have three rows of keys, the 9x9 hot key cluster can be used in the thumb cluster as well, with the trade off being a reduced hit box for each of the keys. As for a module down the road adding them back, I honestly don't see that as something we'll release since a change in the case design to strengthen the cap that surrounds the keys on the top (and prevents light leaks) has shortened the 45° angled side, requiring a reduction in the length of the thumb module. I could leave it at the original length, however that adds to the cost of the device since every part of the thumb cluster is designed to be used for both halves of the board. While adding another cavity to a mold isn't a huge expense, there's also the requirement to now stock both and unlike the main case which are very clear in their difference, the thumb bottoms are less so and I would hate to accidentally ship the wrong part. By pure serendipity, the vertical side where the main clusters can connect was lengthened to nearly match the 45° side, negating the need for an extra set of molds for the hot keys.
Regarding the indicator LEDs, you may notice that I've reduced them to three per side. When I had my little epiphany (or realization that I was being stubborn) and figured out that I don't need LED control electronics in the thumb clusters, I also discovered that with the 2x3 1.5 layout that meant that I would have three RGB LEDs free. So, cost savings (component count reduction) + easier programming = win. As part of the development with the backlight, I've decided that you'll be able to assign three different behaviors to each key's backlight individually.
- Open - Answers to both backlighting/animations & indicator calls, with indicators taking priority by default (possible to make it user selectable to prioritize backlight as well)
- Backlight - Answers only to backlighting calls.
- Indicator - Answers only to indicator calls. These will be user assignable as well, with certain functions built into the keyboard and the desktop software augmenting it (for things like tweets or email notifications).
As far as layers are concerned, if you combine both sides, you could already have 49 (7*7) layers directly available without even pressing two keys with a thumb (which is definitively possible for adjacent keys). And that also don't take into account that a single key can be used at the same time as a layer switch and a dead key, so you can have several hundreds layers available easily. Probably more than you can remember...
I meant more as single-key modifiers to use quickly while typingI don't think you should be worried...
I was even thinking of maybe having a "layer layer" (activated by one of the "out of reach" keys) that would map a set of keys to then switch to other layouts for specific applications. That could be nifty! :)Actually, that's totally what I intend to do ^_^
I don't think you should be worried...
If I understand you well, that's still 12 alternate layers directly availables with a single thumb (without pressing "between" keys) and 36 by using both...
Following a Zipf law, each layer tend to be really roughly ~50 times less useful than the previous one in a given context (depending on how keys you actually use on the main part of the keypad), so even if you'll probably need the first three layers on a regular basis, the fourth one should be useful each hour, the next one each week, then each year, a couple a time in a life, then never. Three layer switchs on both thumbs are probably sufficient to store your needs for a lifetime.
I'd suggest you to try designing your layout, you'll probably run out of ideas before running out of layer switchers ^_^
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.
I blame schools for teaching kids to use computers but not teaching them how to type.
For my oldest, typing is a requirement for the elementary school and something they do as homework on a regular basis. That's a good thing as we were encouraged to type but there was never a really strong emphasis put on it in any computer class I've taken in elementary school or Jr. High back in the days of the Apple IIe in schools.
I've made the difficult decision to eliminate the f-row mounts and increase the space at the top of the unit by roughly the amount it would have taken up. It's not all bad news however; not only does this make enough room for the connectors, I have enough space left over to add the missing 3 keys from the thumb cluster to the empty space not set aside for the connectors. It also allows for a larger, more stable folding stand and room for a bigger battery for the wireless option.I've been really looking forward to this keyboard, however I was already a little worried about how easy to reach the function keys were going to be, now with them moved to be largely inaccessible, I think this is a deal-breaker for me - they're an integral and frequent part of my daily workflow :(
As for the now orphaned f-row keys, the increase in the depth would allow for another module the size of the thumb cluster to be mounted there, and with allowing for some space for the RGB controller, you would be able to add an additional 6-9 keys :D
I understand your point about the arrangement of navigation keys, but once I got used to those keys on my kinesis advantage... :-)
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys. I know the thinking is that making them linear in the bottom row makes it possible to hit them without moving your hands, and that may be true.
But how many times do you hit those particular keys just once? How many times do you hit only one of those keys? Is it really feasible to reach two rows down without moving your hands? It seems to me (IMNSHO) that even with "in line" arrangements of these keys, moving your hands to reach them is still normal. Heck, even in my current TECK, the keys are in range for normal typing, but moving to reach them is normal because of how they're used.
Because of how they're used, they're also highly directional. But laying out such directional keys in a line means you either have to memorize something that's counter-intuitive (move left to go up, right to go down, or visa-versa) or look back and forth between the keys and screen.
Bottom line, if you're going to be moving your hands to use those keys anyway (actually more of a shoulder movement than hand movement), then the keys should be laid out in the most intuitive and quick to use arrangement.
I haven't seen any discussion of a paired numeric keypad for a while. (Really important when typing lots of numbers, and I do.) Is that going to be part of this project?
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys...
...Because of how they're used, they're also highly directional...
...the keys should be laid out in the most intuitive and quick to use arrangement...
I've been really looking forward to this keyboard, however I was already a little worried about how easy to reach the function keys were going to be, now with them moved to be largely inaccessible, I think this is a deal-breaker for me - they're an integral and frequent part of my daily workflow :(Unfortunately I think this is the case with any staggered design that doesn't move the f keys to match that pattern (of which I don't actually think I've seen any). I hope you'll still be willing to try a unit when they're done, maybe the new cluster or even a remap will end up being to your satisfaction.
I think I need to lobby for TECK style diamond key arrangements for the arrow, page up/down, and home/end keys. I know the thinking is that making them linear in the bottom row makes it possible to hit them without moving your hands, and that may be true.
- snip -
I, for one, probably won't even use those keys for arrows, page up/down, and home/end, opting instead to use a layer to map the vim directional hjkl to arrows etc. Placing the keys in a cross has an implicit directional connotation, which, as you mentioned, makes sense if you're going to use them for directionally-associated functions, but it's a very counter-intuitive layout for anyone planning on using them for anything else. With the newer configuration, the keys don't have that implicit directional connotation for anyone planning on using them for other things, but (unless I'm mistaken) will still be in a somewhat directional layout, similar to the inverted T, for anyone who does want to use them for those functions.I think you both make very good points. And there's no need to lobby for the arrows as a cluster, that'll be the first alternate cluster setup that will be released. Depending on how the campaign goes, I'm currently looking at making it the first (and very low) stretch goal since its mostly a difference in production costs.
AcidFire, I think you're going to find this one a very divided issue with strong opinions on both sides. I'd advise you to go with the configuration that you want, and the rest will have to wait for a swap-in board down the road.
I haven't seen any discussion of a paired numeric keypad for a while. (Really important when typing lots of numbers, and I do.) Is that going to be part of this project?It's still in the works as an addon (and possibly stand alone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c-F7cAK3LY)(sorry inner GitS nerd couldn't help it!)) to follow the initial launch.
I think you both make very good points. And there's no need to lobby for the arrows as a cluster, that'll be the first alternate cluster setup that will be released. Depending on how the campaign goes, I'm currently looking at making it the first (and very low) stretch goal since its mostly a difference in production costs.
PageUp | Home | Up | End |
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Historically I've always liked having dedicated arrow keys. I used to really like the 8-key navigation cluster on the TypeMatrix 2030, which was roughly:I'm not sure where I'd want to put that on an Axios. It works better in a matrix array than it will on the Axios due to the finger staggering. The new center 3x3 grids AcidFire posted about recently aren't staggered, so they'd be an option, but probably not a particularly good one since my goal would be to have three fingers hovering over the arrows and that's awkward when they're centrally located. I may end up trying to convert myself to the layered home row approach. The TextBlade I just ordered does that so perhaps I'll get used to it while waiting for the Axios to go into production.
PageUp Home Up End PageDown Left Down Right
Really, I don't even think you would need an alternate cluster. Just some extra holes and traces in the pcb to allow for either setup. I've seen a lot of keyboards have somewhat overlapping switch areas so you can have different spacing on the bottom row, different kinds of enter key, and so on all on the same pcb.Have you been snooping through my PCBs? ;) Yes, the footprints for the extra switches exist on the current boards, though I'm still struggling a bit to make them work with the RGB LEDs, I'm sure I can work out some sort of solution for production time.
Alternatively, the revamped casing for the thumb cluster (which I haven't posted yet) would allow it to sit externally so that might be an option as well (thinking about setting one up like this for myself).
Speaking of RGB, for those of you who would prefer Cherry MX stems, would you be open to the option of Gateron switches as a compromise? With a semi clear housing and from what I've seen a much more reasonable switch price, it's looking very doable to offer them along side the Matias. And from what I've read, those of you who have been wanting buckling spring may be interested in trying out the Gateron black equiv, they seem to feel quite similar (from what I've read anyways).
Speaking of RGB, for those of you who would prefer Cherry MX stems, would you be open to the option of Gateron switches as a compromise? With a semi clear housing and from what I've seen a much more reasonable switch price, it's looking very doable to offer them along side the Matias. And from what I've read, those of you who have been wanting buckling spring may be interested in trying out the Gateron black equiv, they seem to feel quite similar (from what I've read anyways).
I have to admit I've lost track of the current layout a little bit. This is what I'm currently working with:You've got it right. For reference the current plate looks like this:Show Image(http://i61.tinypic.com/30ctyio.jpg)
That's 60 x 1u caps and 22 x 1.5u caps. Is that correct? If not, would you mind uploading current layout information when you have a chance?
Hmm. Now you have me wondering if I should jump on the current Massdrop for the Gateron switches ;) Having them ahead of time would give me time to try them out to see what I like...You can if you like, but I believe we'll be making some switch testers available before the campaign that would include the 6 common Cherry, 5 Gateron, and 3 Matias currently available. They may also be a campaign option that would include a voucher for the CrowdSupply price (lower than the final retail) minus the cost of the switch tester. We're currently looking into it.
I strongly urge a switch moddable plate. That way we have flexibility in putting whatever stems we like inside. Not surprisingly, I'm going for the same jailhouse greens that I've been talking about perpetually.With Cherry that definitely goes without question. If you do see me post a Cherry plate without the notches, rest assured that the production models will have them. It just happens to be easier to switch between Matias & Cherry when building layouts without the notches ;)
I am really interested in this keyboard... but my wrist has been killing me lately...You should sort your wrist out ASAP, don’t wait: by all means get an Axios keyboard, but don’t just work through your pain in the mean time. RSI is no joke, and continuing to repeatedly do something that is causing you pain is a good way to give yourself a serious, possibly irreparable, injury.
You can if you like, but I believe we'll be making some switch testers available before the campaign that would include the 6 common Cherry, 5 Gateron, and 3 Matias currently available.That's a really great idea. As someone that has only very limited experience with buckling springs (I'm that old T_T ) and some Cherries, I'm clueless when it comes to Matias, and never heard of Gateron...
changing the logical keyboard layout (away from QWERTY)Plently of good advices... but I'm still not sure that Qwerty is such a pain by itself. The issue with Qwerty layout (or any 'default' layout) is probably that on typewriters, the easiest row to use is rather the upper one (shorter mechanism) than the middle one, and the layout was designed around this. Switch both upper rows and it's not a truly bad layout.
Plently of good advices... but I'm still not sure that Qwerty is such a pain by itself. The issue with Qwerty layout (or any 'default' layout) is probably that on typewriters, the easiest row to use is rather the upper one (shorter mechanism) than the middle one, and the layout was designed around this. Switch both upper rows and it's not a truly bad layout. The main issue is probably the fact that the common rest position teached for such a keyboard is all fingers on the mid row. [...]The first of these is not the issue, and the second is not the main issue; these are two problems among many.
In any case, I personally know several people, and have heard from a pile more on geekhack, who switched to Dvorak or some other logical layout and found it dramatically improved their hand comfort, despite typing each physical key with a similar style to the one they used with QWERTY.I don't dispute the fact that the comfort will be higher if you reduce fingers motion. I'm just saying that the direct effects of a layout change on wrist pain may not be so obvious. Paying attention to wrist position even without changing the layout (and NOT using usual advices for typing, such as the one below, unless your waist is 10cm broad) is probably the most important thing to do.
Paying attention to wrist position even without changing the layout (and NOT using usual advices for typing, such as the one below, unless your waist is 10cm broad) is probably the most important thing to do.I feel like we’re arguing just for the sake of it, not really disagreeing. You might want to follow the ergonomics subforum (here are some posts of mine about precisely this: 1 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67996.msg1607538#msg1607538) 2 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67996.msg1608213#msg1608213) 3 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69126.msg1654198#msg1654198) 4 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69705.msg1674235#msg1674235) 5 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70015.msg1682858#msg1682858)), instead of talking about this here where we’re getting somewhat off topic.
I'd stay the worst thing with qwerty is not the layout, it's the way you learn to touchtype on it...The way touch typing is formally taught is mostly okay. For instance:
I feel like we’re arguing just for the sake of it, not really disagreeing.I agree, we mostly share the same views and arguing over details, and it's indeed not the place for this kind of discussion (apologies to AcidFire and others). I'd be pleased to discuss this elsewhere with you later, but I'll stop derailing the thread further.
I'll hide a comment below explaining the problem I have with those teachings...You should either make a new thread about this in the ergonomics subforum, or else do a search: there are several existing threads about this topic.
Historically I've always liked having dedicated arrow keys. I used to really like the 8-key navigation cluster on the TypeMatrix 2030, which was roughly:I'm not sure where I'd want to put that on an Axios. It works better in a matrix array than it will on the Axios due to the finger staggering. The new center 3x3 grids AcidFire posted about recently aren't staggered, so they'd be an option, but probably not a particularly good one since my goal would be to have three fingers hovering over the arrows and that's awkward when they're centrally located. I may end up trying to convert myself to the layered home row approach. The TextBlade I just ordered does that so perhaps I'll get used to it while waiting for the Axios to go into production.
PageUp Home Up End PageDown Left Down Right
Alternatively, the revamped casing for the thumb cluster (which I haven't posted yet) would allow it to sit externally so that might be an option as well (thinking about setting one up like this for myself).
As for a 4x2 or 4x3 cluster, 4x2 with 1u keys *might* be possible, but a 4x3 would require a larger housing. Originally there was space for this, however in order to keep the distance between the keys of the main cluster and the thumb to an absolute minimum, we went with a smaller housing to match the area available. This was part asthetics but mostly due to manfacturing & inventory management, a larger thumb cluster means there is a higher molding cost (for two unique cavities) since each side now has it's own MOQ. Plus, inventory management/space to keep track of the additional part since now they need to be tracked and verified seperately when building kits.. It may not seem like much, but with everything else that goes into this it adds up very quickly.
I hate to be that guy, but I'd also love an eta. I need a second ergo board since I currently commute with my ergodox, and I'd much rather wait a little while for an axios than give in and get the ergodox update currently going on massdrop. That said, if eta is more like a year than a few months... compromise time. Can you give us an estimate acidfire? :-*
That said, if eta is more like a year than a few months... compromise time.As a general rule, if you need something in the near future, just buy something that already exists, instead of waiting on an unfinished version 1 hardware project (same story whether it’s a 3d printer, a blender, a chair, a shoe, whatever...). You can always resell whatever you get, when the new hardware finally arrives: the ergodox or kinesis advantage or whatever existing product is going to hold most of its value for at least a year or two.
As a general rule, if you need something in the near future, just buy something that already exists, instead of waiting on an unfinished version 1 hardware project (same story whether it’s a 3d printer, a blender, a chair, a shoe, whatever...). You can always resell whatever you get, when the new hardware finally arrives: the ergodox or kinesis advantage or whatever existing product is going to hold most of its value for at least a year or two.
I think you are definitely correct about ths, but just a comment, the Infinity Ergodox sounds like it's a bit of a work in progress as well.Yep. Ergodoxes in general take at least a few months between order and ship date. If you need something within the next month or two, buy a retail product, or build it yourself.
That would mean first quarter 2015 for funding, with a production time no longer than 6 months (barring major supply obstacles). Keeping basically all the production local will let us keep a much tighter set of reigns on the timeline.
Also, has the multiplxd forum been pretty much abandoned for now?
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.
I just cancelled the order for infinity ErgoDox since I though it's a waste of money if I'm not getting the Axios.
I think you'd probably be able to sell your Infinity Ergodox for more than you bought it for once the Axios came out, if you really needed to.
I'm buying both... :-)
Add me to the list of people waiting for this board who didn't order an infinity (though in my case, it was more through inattentiveness than actual choice).
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't. Looking forward to the release of this AcidFire. Take my money!!If you can do a bit of electronics then there is one more option: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56923.0
So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)
Each time I see this thread bumped, I rush here hoping for news... just to see someone else eager to see this project coming to fruition.Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."
My money is waiting, too, but at this moment, I just hope everything is all right with AcidFire and his family, because two months without news feel like a long time.
I'm thinking about ordering a 'dox EZ, a bit expensive for temporary solution, but at least it's a tentable dox to fill the gap.So I bough a Kinesis Advantage Pro while waiting for this. I don't like it. Compared to an ErgoDox which I already own, the lack of *full* reprogrammability is frustrating. I want to map the esc key, but I can't.I'm really thinking that we shoud design a USB pass-through to add reprogrammability to devices that don't have it... I wanted to try it, at least as a proof-of-concept, using a leonardo and an USB host shield, but haven't found the time to do so (beside, I don't really have a use for this myself, and the limited speed/memory of the Arduino don't allow a lot of interesting tricks, so I never really tried)
I guess you're on Windows?
Hasu is working on a USB pass through device using an AVR and some other hardware. I'm on mobile so I can't link it but search the forum for "USB to USB converter."Nice... I hadn't seen this project somehow. Will look for it, out of curiosity... thanks!
guys!I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.
acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!
he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!
i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!
he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!
I'm sure he does. But he has a life, a family, and he works for free. Granted, many people here are really eager to try his keyboard, but we can't ask him to spend his nights on this project just because time feels long.
guys!
acidfire has fooled and ass-kicked us!
he appears to be very fine, on facebook his last post is just from 5 days ago!
i bet he simply does not give a damn any more on this project we all set our hearts on!
no sentimental care necessary
(Attachment Link) (i removed the screenshot)
I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why)
You may have set your heart on this project, but you have at present 11 posts and no contribution to Acidfire.
Some people simply do not appreciate how much time and effort the makers need in order to complete their projects.
One of the main reason I joined this forum was this project. I just finished reading all 56 pages (which seem to suddenly have changed to 34, not sure why) over the past few days, and have saved a lot of the images just for at least window shopping for now! ;-)If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=theme
If you are logged into geekhack, you can decide how many posts you want to see per page. https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;area=themeYes I know, but the point is, I was logged in even when there were 50+ pages, and I'm logged in even now. My setting for "posts per page" is set to "Forum default" so possibly somebody changed that recently.
AcidFire says (https://twitter.com/Multiplxd/status/612370731310018560) he "was just a little preoccupied with getting married" and "progress is still very much being made". Congratulations to AcidFire and his bride! Nice to hear on the project side too.Oh, nice... Congratulations, and a lot of happyness!
Now as someone else said, I'm wondering whether I should wait for this or go for ErgoDox EZ which is to come out in December. This one is much more feature-packed for probably a similar price tag (based on the estimates AcidFire posted a few pages ago). So if this one comes out, I would be really curious to know who would buy the EZ and whyI do, partly as a gap-filler because I felt AcidFire keyboard would be late, partly because I think having two keyboards will probably be handy, partly because I think AcidFire's keyboard won't take the same kind of beating with moving parts, partly because I want to design a firmware, and being able to test it on Ergodox could be useful.
As for KeyboardIO, though I like the colour LED feature, I don't exactly dig the fancy butterfly shape -- not sure how many would either.Not overly fond of the shape, but I'm not bothered by it either. But there's definitively not enough keys on this one. I'm curious about the palm button too.
Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1607676#msg1607676) he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1636990#msg1636990)The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?
However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?
Nope, compare the plate:Now there is one actual design detail I want to chime in on: he said (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1607676#msg1607676) he would be removing the three 1u keys on the thumb clusters, and also the function keys (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1636990#msg1636990)The current design have three function keys on each side, if I'm not mistaken?
However, now that the thumb cluster has been reduced to 4x1.5u keys4x1.5u? Isn't it 6x1.5u ?
Nope, compare the plate:You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).
I note that the far top left key (Esc) and the navigation cluster are missing, but apart from that, I count, starting from the innermost column outwards (on either side) the following number of keys per column: 4, 5, 6, and then four 5s — so it seems now the F keys are merged with the alphanumers rows rather than standing alone?Exactly. Not that you don't need to use those as F-keys, but at least, you have a couple of accessible keys.
... Wait a minute! The navigation cluster is also missing!You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^
Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keysI think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)
and most importantly the navigation keysI don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.
I would have thought this far into the development the key layout would have been finalized...I think that the white acrylic plate you posted is the (tentative?) final layout for the first campaign.
I don't see where there are any addition 3 keys. I don't know what versions you are comparing but as I said in my earlier post I am comparing the version seen on the CrowdSupply site ("CS version")Nope, compare the plate:You actually confirm my point: there's, on the current plate, 3 additional keys on each side than on the original prototype, beside the 9-keys cluster. Look for example at the inner column, which is 4 keys high now, and was 3 keys high in the prototype (or on any Ergodox).
You've read the 50+ pages too quickly ^_^
Anyhow I sincerely request AcidFire to restore the Esc and Ins keysI think there's an issue with how the PCB is populated that prevent adding a key on the top left part of the left half-keyboard (and same on the right one) that may make that addition difficult. I'd welcome a key, though (although I've put ESC on a easier-to-kit key myself)[/quote]
and most importantly the navigation keysI don't think this will change for the third time for the first campaign, but it may be one of the first alternative layouts if I understood correctly what AcidFire wanted to do.
i guess all of you want to program the keyboard so that keystrokes (single and combined ones like ctrl+alt+something) fire directly unicode codes instead of scancodes (scancodes would throw us back to handling a qwerty keyboard and would lead to complicated difficulties in programming macros for them like i had with autohotkey).
snipIs it even possible? (without designing a specific driver for the keyboard, I mean, and even with this, it'll probably fail with some programs directly reading the keyboard state). The idea that the keyboard would send unicodes is great on paper, but I don't think the people who designed the keyboard protocol allowed anything like this, unfortunately (in fact, if you're looking at xkb on Linux, for example, it's an awfully complicated system).after sharing your constructive considerations on my post and your hint on the keyboard protocol, koren, i tried to get into this matter and also to get a deeper insight into the ergodox firmware files.
snip
(BTW, translating key presses in Hepburn sequences before sending them to the PC works well, I tried it with a Leonardo and a couple of microswitchs... Now, I REALLY hope there's a lot of memory in the keyboard, because I intend to put a lot of things inside ^_^ )
but it began to dawn on me that such modifier routines do not work the way i tried to set up in my previous post.
letting the keyboard send scan codes is the simplest way and seems to be done in every firmware i have found so far. but will we really have to deal with just rearranging virtual qwerty keyboard keys?
that is quite stoneage.
in contrast to the conception that only scancodes are possible, i have found a corrective statement in wikipedia:
in the article about keyboard layouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout) just in the introduction in the 8th line it is written
"Most computer keyboards are designed to send scancodes to the operating system, rather than directly sending characters."
hereof i deduce that also some computer keyboards are designed to directly send characters. so, unicode sending keyboard firmware seems to be possible.
17 Unicode Page (0x10)(Italics mine, LOL. Seriously, that document is dated 2004-10-28!)
The Unicode Page directly maps to the two-octet form defined in the Unicode Standard.
The Unicode Standard, Version 1.1, is the newest version of the UnicodeTM Standard. Unicode 1.1 includes
the changes and additions that were made to Unicode 1.0 in the process of alignment with the international
character encoding standard, ISO/IEC 10646-1, which was approved by ISO/IEC as an International
Standard in June 1992, and published in May 1993. The character content and encoding of Unicode 1.1 is
thus identical to that of the ISO/IEC 10646-1 UCS-2 (the two-octet form).
I am very disappointed in the latest design and hope that acidfire will change his mind soon.
I've been reading and trying a few things quietly, and I think for the initial layout we'll be going with a bit more of a normal bottom row. For those of you wanting a more traditional arrow cluster, it's marked down as the first layout option to be released after the initial product run is done.
BTW if you have an SVG for the blue colour-coded layout you just posted can you please share it here? Would save me some work!
Koren, can you please post a tentative key mapping for the current version? (IIUC you have been working on one since you were grrr-ing AcidFire for keeping changing the layout!)Should there be any doubt, I wasn't actually really angry about the changes... ;)
I am now wondering whether the Axios has addressed this problem with the ErgoDox thumb clusters (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58673) ("TCs") because the Axios has also used 1u-wide for the TCs just like the ErgoDox. I know the Axios has a separate PCB for the TCs and it's angled down so that the thumb can move inwards which may address the issue of hitting Space, but still how about accessibility of the 4 keys other than those two closest to the main (alpha etc) board?I'm not sure it's easy to answer this, as people can have different resting positions and hand sizes... I fear only testing would allow you to decide.
I was thinking of putting all my modifiers on the thumb clusters (which is apparently something others agree with (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.msg1472411#msg1472411)) and symmetric on both hands.I don't think even a general agreement should drive your decisions about the layout, especially if you feel pain using a board that many find comfortable... I'm not even sure I would use modifiers on the thumb clusters in your case.
So what are we supposed to do with those other thumb cluster keys and where are we supposed to put the modifiers? Again on the weak little fingers like on regular non-ergo keyboards? I don't think that's right...I'm not sure it's a big issue, especially if you don't put the modifiers on places far from the pinkies resting position. The issue with Ctrl, for example, is that it's about 2 columns left/right and 2 rows down from the resting position. If you use Ctrl a lot, you could even put it on the home row or really close to it.
Jacobolus has (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848) gathered detailed feedback about the TC issue and put up multiple diagrams in an effort to solve the problem.I also find that the TC on Ergodox is too far away, and it's one of the reasons I want to tweak the Ergo PCB (simply by reducing the lower 1.5u middle key to a 1u one, you can move the TC closer to the hand). Another reason is that I'd like to be able to use a standard ISO set of keys... I may use levers instead of keys for some TC keys.
IIUC you say "we'll only know whether the Axios's TC is good if we try it out" but ~250 USD which is about the current estimate isn't a small amount for everyone, especially when it has to convert into other currencies (such as my INR).Indeed...
And in 3D, it seems to me that to expect the thumb to be able to hit six different keys, and 1.5u at that, will be highly impracticalYou can always not use them... I intend to use the upper row for really uncommon functions, like japanese layer switching or rare shortcuts.
In fact I suspect minimalism suits only pure Latin/English users and I'm not sure that such minimalism would be even suitable for other European languages with 4 levels (or even 8 levels which I have seen in a German layout file in XKB).
2) The oft neglected external number pad will be available in two layouts, one for a standard number pad and the other for F keys/hot keys if you need direct access to such keys constantly.
Further on the OLED topic, IIANM it is accepted procedure (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/how-to-recover-from-a-beverage-spill-on-your-keyboard/) to give alcohol baths to keyboards in case of spilt liquids etc, and if even water can damage OLEDs, I'd assume alcohol certainly can, since it's also organic. (Correct me if I'm wrong – I'm certainly not an expert on this.)
Now in such case, if an OLED were attached to the board, then one would to be extremely careful to just submerge the board part and not the OLED part in alcohol, but given that a careless mistake would be the cause of the problem in the first place, making the solution also prone to such a mistake (I mean, if you prop it up against something holding the OLED out of the alcohol and it slips or such) doesn't seem to be good design...
Or the OLED would have to be made yet another detachable module which should be detached prior to such a bath, which is, well, at least cause for more design costs...
Better look at other options, though? How about LED-based displays? Don't they come in such small sizes? And do they also get affected likewise by alcohol/other liquids?
While it's true that the underlying goal of this board is comfortable, healthy typing over all else keep in mind that there are a number of functions that the board will support that the screen(s) are ideal for:Wow – and I didn't even imagine half of them! Cool. And as davkol said, I also agree that the full OLED isn't going to be running all the time, so it wouldn't wear down so quickly. If the OLED would also have a sleep mode or low brightness mode which it automatically goes to after a given period of time, I guess it would further lengthen the life.
Now, as for the extra switches/hotkeys... I have to start by saying that while it can be admittedly frustrating at times sharing everything as it's being developed, you fine folks help to keep me on track with what I'm working on. I'll freely admit that I had omitted the mounts for the extra hot keys primarily because I wasn't a fan of the asthetics of it, but also because they add instability to the tented design, particularly at the higher angles. If I become a slave to aesthetics first and let functionality suffer, then I become a hypocrite in regards to my opinion on things like Apple hardware which can end up functionally limited for the sake of pretty. So when you questioned as to whether or not they were still available, and made it known that it could be a deal breaker for a number of you it was frustrating. Thankfully my patient wife listened and provided a sounding wall that helped me get past my frustration and into a revision of the design that not only works with the existing mounts, it reduces costs and extraneous parts + molds.
2) The oft neglected external number pad will be available in two layouts, one for a standard number pad and the other for F keys/hot keys if you need direct access to such keys constantly.If that then means that it's a separate detachable module, then that's great and fine, which gives the best of both worlds! Do you have a tentative layout for such a number/F pad you can share?
And does the promise for it being able to get "added in down the road to the existing design" mean modularity advantage in that I can just later plug-in a set of LEDs or something without having to solder anything?
I'm also curious about the firmware. You've mentioned the idea of an easy-to-use configurator but I kind of like getting under the hood a little bit, like with TMK. Will this be an option?I remember AcidFire saying that the project would be opensourced once released. If that's still the objective, you can expect a lot of tweaking... I still want to customize the firmware myself, or write a complete new one.
super exciting... love to see that there are updates happening. ;)Yes, and I hope the campaign will be launched soon, because I'm coding more and more strange things as possible firmware parts.
The last being an Enigma mode ^_^
Not totally "for the fun and nothing more", though... I'm still looking for a system where I can type weak passwords on the keyboard and have strong passwords sent to the computer. Seems a really promising solution.
Cool sounding idea, but wouldn't the Enigma "Wheels" or encoders or whatever they're called need to be in the correct starting point?Indeed... I'll try to discuss this further when everything is ready, but my idea is the following : a master (rather strong) password for the keyboard that set the wheels shift/wheels initial position/wires and everything, so that if someone take your keyboard and don't know the master password, knowing the weak passwords won't allow him to access your data.
Wouldn't this open the possibility of getting locked out of everything if the keyboard ever failed?
Will there be an option for the original layout, as featured here (https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/8799/axios-cover-updated_jpg_project-main.jpg)?I can't speak for AcidFire, but he said in the past months that he wanted first to produce the current design, but variations may be available after. Besides, the project should be open-source, it's not a huge change (although maybe a costly one, because of the custom PCB order) to add a key to redo the cluster.
The reduction of the thumb key clusters could be good or bad, depending on the exact dimensions of the keyboard and the size of the given user’s thumbs. Personally, I would rather have more thumb keys than less—the current design offers fewer than the Ergodox.Isn't it also 6 keys on Ergodox? (at least, it's 6 on the Ergodox I used and on Ergo EZ I'm currently waiting for) As far as I can tell, the only difference in keys between the two are the additionnal 6 keys on top of Acidfire's keyboard (plus the possible two 9-keys additional clusters).
I’m also aware they’re a decidedly more corporate entity than the Ergodox people, so their attorneys may have bludgeoned you into scrapping the design, for whatever outrageous reason.Nothing has been said about this, and I'm pretty sure you can't protect such a detail of a design. It has been seen elsewhere, too (like on TRON keyboards, which are for the oldest ones, 30 years old, so older than anything Truly Ergonomic produced).
Bépo is a French layout, with extra keys for é, è, ç, à, etc. I could never get it to work with Ergodox because a) Massdrop’s so-called configurator is terrible and b) it’s an international keyboard layout, and I have no idea which keys go where, c) even if I did, I’d have to do it all in C, and programming requires way, way too much executive function for me to handle in greater than minute doses, and d) there aren’t enough keys on the Ergodox—you need eleven or twelve per row, whereas the Ergodox only has ten.This is at least something I can promise: you'll be able to get the Bépo you want without having to spend nights in firmware configuration. AcidFire should provide a configuration tool, but if it doesn"t allow you to create the keyboard you want, I'll provide one (or an alternative firmware). I want something far more exotic than Bépo (I'm french, but I don't share all the choices behind the Bépo, even its variations), so I'm more than eager to invest a lot of time in this.
Not necessarily. On an inverted-T or a diamond cluster, you have a strong finger moving around. On a 4-in-a-row cluster, one of the two most(?) frequent movement keys falls on the weakest finger.That's only if you use the (common, VI-style) left-up-down-right order and on the right hand. There's some people that suggest putting the keys in a different order, or better, on the left hand since if makes left, arguably the less used key the one that fall on the weakest finger.
I think arrow keys like these are best:Probably mostly a question of preferences and habits. It's also the shape I prefer, probably because I used them A LOT. But I'll put them in the middle of the keyboard for easier access, on a layer. I already use this on linux and enjoy it, I just hope the staggered columns won't make thinks harder (inverted T may be better).
I was using it as example to illustrate the benefit of having separate keys for accented letters.Indeed (although I've à, ç and ù on an alt-gr layer myself because I use far more often brackets, parenthesis and other common programming characters). Fully agree on the W, too.
It is six keys per side on the Ergodox; I was looking at this (http://axios.io/exports/forums/3d-proto-115.jpg) picture, where there are only eight, and they’re all connected.I think you should see this one as an alternate layout for those who want a keyboard with connected halves, since there was some demand for an older prototype (flat and in a single piece).
Nice to hear of your Hawaii Honeymoon (oops, capitalization "accidental")...
On the keyboard side though, looks like you are going to make this much more important a part of life, which I guess is quite good for the project, but: again is there any tentative date in sight, or have you decided to avoid promising any dates because already you have had to skip a couple?
I'm writing this using a 10-year old TVSE mechanical keyboard, which is far better than any membrane keyboard, but my fingers/arms and new computer is asking me when I will be bringing in the split ergonomic thingy...
As for trackball, I already bought a Kensington Orbit so for now I'll just put it between the two halves, but it's the "when" question that keeps putting me off the Axios and towards the ErgoDox EZ, and the fact that the ErgoDox has proven software for it.
Which causes me to ask: what about the software side of things? Are you going to be able to use any existing firmware? Looks like TMK and chrisandreae are valid alternates for ErgoDox with each its own set of special features... Rather than writing new software right from scratch (and go through a long debug/maturation cycle) would it be better/possible to use one of these?
we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.
Hi AcidFire and nice to hear back from you.we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.
"Campaign" in Nov-Dec would mean product shipping possibly when?
Nice to hear of your Hawaii Honeymoon (oops, capitalization "accidental")...
On the keyboard side though, looks like you are going to make this much more important a part of life, which I guess is quite good for the project, but: again is there any tentative date in sight, or have you decided to avoid promising any dates because already you have had to skip a couple?
I'm writing this using a 10-year old TVSE mechanical keyboard, which is far better than any membrane keyboard, but my fingers/arms and new computer is asking me when I will be bringing in the split ergonomic thingy...
As for trackball, I already bought a Kensington Orbit so for now I'll just put it between the two halves, but it's the "when" question that keeps putting me off the Axios and towards the ErgoDox EZ, and the fact that the ErgoDox has proven software for it.
Which causes me to ask: what about the software side of things? Are you going to be able to use any existing firmware? Looks like TMK and chrisandreae are valid alternates for ErgoDox with each its own set of special features... Rather than writing new software right from scratch (and go through a long debug/maturation cycle) would it be better/possible to use one of these?
Thanks all for the congrats :)
I've been avoiding giving a timeline because with my work schedule, I honestly wasn't sure what was manageable. Given where I'm now at with development and the fact that I'm now able to move to a full time schedule (without coming home burned out from work), we're tentatively aiming to get the campaign ready to go by the end of November/first week of December and are pulling assets together to make that happen.
Firmware wise the first version will be what I've been working with which is based on the mbed platform, however I've already talked with Koren about getting one of the beta units in his hands since he's been chomping at the bit to get up and running with it. With a full time schedule I do want to take a look at what it'll take to get some of the extended functionality running with TMK. It's entirely possible the final firmware will either be something from Koren or a fork of TMK. This is one of the many reasons we're sticking with open source.
We've been in contact with a couple of shops already, including the local one I've mentioned a few times who we'll be working with through the final design changes to ensure we've got a proper timeline. Currently we're still aiming to handle pretty much everything but the injection molding in house which shortens our production timeline since we're not sitting a queue with other projects. We're still aiming for a 6 month delivery from the end of the campaign, with the possibility of much sooner if things go well through the final design steps.I find it easier to do complex layouts and layer configurations with TMK. There were some simple things I couldn't figure out how to do with the Infinity firmware, although I'm sure there's a way. I suppose the key is hasu's great support for his software.
As for the firmware, it wouldn't be TMK through mbed, it would just be TMK, or possibly a fork of TMK, depending on what we're finding for the final functionality. It's really tough to say until I've got the latest controllers in hand, but I've got some work arounds coming in the meantime. What is it that you like better about TMK specifically njbair?
I hate to say it but I just ordered an ErgoDox from Feng on ebay, because my TEK is dying. keeps getting more and more keys that either don't register or double press, usually one then the other.
Was really hoping for an Axios, but since this has turned into multiple years of waiting, I couldn't hold out any longer. I can't type on a "normal" keyboard anymore, so decided to try the ErgoDox.
Still want an Axios. Still plan to get one when they become real. Keep on truckin', Acidfire.
I better order two Axios, then - I use a TEK at work and at home. It's pretty good, but I would love more thumb buttons. Also, it will be nice to have options for the thumb height - the raised thumb keys on the TEK are just a bit annoying.I'm currently using more and more an Ergo-EZ (and playing with its firmware), but I hate the thumb clusters (and especially 90° rotated keycaps) nearly as much as I used to when I first tried the Ergodox.
I can type on a normal keyboard, but it's hell on the fingers.
Have there been any developments since October?Most probably, if AcidFire is fine, since I think he intended to invest a lot of time in this... Can't wait to see how it progressed.
and the price difference (one assumes [i.e. hopes] they won't charge $600 for the Axios).It has been said that the price may be comparable to a 'Dox (200-250$). If that's still the case, I'm sure it'll get plently of buyers when it releases...
Any updates? Over four months since we heard from Acidfire. I hope he is ok!
Any updates? Over four months since we heard from Acidfire. I hope he is ok!
Would like to hear from Acidfire, too. Since his last announcement when he said he started to work on this project full-time I assumed we were going to have more frequent updates but instead we got nothing for over four months...The keyboard will come when it's ready, but I also hope he and his family are fine, I wasn't expecting such a gap either :/
Can someone ping Acidfire?
One of AcidFire's last posts (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.msg1885781#msg1885781) mentions getting married and quitting his job. I know what it's like to get bogged down in drastic lifestyle changes, and he just went through two of the biggest...Yes, but... he said one of the reasons he was quitting his job was to spend more time on his projects, including Axios. For a drastic change, it doesn't fit so well with four (?) months of silence. Without the job change, I could think he's too busy for updates, but now...
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/
Good eye! I was starting to get really worried about this project. I mean... hoping massdrop does another ergodox infinity drop soon worried. I would much rather get an axios!
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/
Good to see that he is ok.Yes, me, too. I was beginning to be really worried by this long silence.
Now infinity Ergodox is liveI think Ergodox EZ is a closer alternative (tentable, injection case, etc.) But while EZ is nice, it still has problems shared by all Ergodox, like a bad thumb cluster.
Looks like a set of new posts today :D: https://m.facebook.com/multiplxd/
It's disappointing there are updates on facebook but not a single word posted here, where so many people have been giving their feedback for so long...