Is Anarchy Utopia?

[RiGS]

Okay. I've created this thread, so we can keep other threads on topic.

[Wibox]

Only if it's organized, at which point it isn't anarchy.

[RiGS]

What political flavor is realistic ? What religion ? What philosophy ?
 
Real life catholics don't mind to became saints, communist not mind to really do the revolution, and anarchist don't mind to live in a completely unruled society.

For the vast majority of people, ideals are just ideals, trends, driving lines.

For a communist a bit of more social equality is more than enough, like for an anarchist more relaxed rules sere sufficient to distinguish itself from people who think differently.

Anarchy means absence of government. That doesn't mean that people in an anarchist society can't address arising problems and work together to build something better.

[The Solutor]

Anarchy means absence of government.

I know what means, and I exposed my opinions.

If you mean a real completely government free society yes, it's an utopia. It is even on the virtual life of Internet which is (was) the nearest thing to anarchia ever seen on the planet.

And you saw what happened

[RiGS]

If your so in love with Anarchy why dont you take a little stroll down to the Congo/Sierre Leone/Sudan and participate in some true Anarchy because that is what anarchy would be,  nobody in charge and hordes of people following like zombies ruthless warlords because nobody else can provide food or shelter for them.  Not even mentioning the Mass Genocide/rape/mutilation.  People like you just say **** for spectacle,  keep watching zeitgeist and loose change and let me know when you practice what you preach.

It isnt a dictatorship,  this is what would be the result of real anarchy.  True anarchy like you think about in your head is not possible, not when the human brain is involved.  If anarchy was ever instated somewhere we would find out just how bad us humans can **** something up,  with anarchy there is no way to maintain order and the bad side of societies will do whatever they please.  This is why Africa is the best example of how Anarchy would never work because it is exactly what it would dissolve into,  a few men with guns who have some followers who decide they need more food and shelter then you or your family and then you have no choice but to follow them if you want to live or for your family to live.

The countries I mentioned all have no real governments capable of enforcing laws so the warlords take over and do what they please including rape/starvation/genocide/mass mutilation.

If anyone is dumb enough to think true Anarchy is achievable and would be a good society to live in I have a bridge I wanna sell you.  And for some reason why does all the Anarchy talk normally resonate from Europeans?

As 7bit pointed out that is chaos and local dictature, and a worst example of how an anarchy would look like.
On the contrary those third world countries both have a government, and ruthless warlords/dictators that are gunned and financed by western democracies in order to destabilize the region and steal natural and human resources.
This is a classic example of divide et impera.
With modern techology like Rossi's E-cat or solar power, and agricultural innovation there is easily possible to provide food, shelter and wealth for everyone locally.
People of such a society would be capable to address any issue that may arises down the road.

Mass genocide spiritual and technological rape are all characteristic of modern democracies. Just look who get the Nobel piece award recently. Those people are all involved in mass murder and wars.

[RiGS]

I know what means, and I exposed my opinions.

If you mean a real completely government free society yes, it's an utopia. It is even on the virtual life of Internet which is (was) the nearest thing to anarchia ever seen on the planet.

And you saw what happened

 
The internet and the idea of exchanging infinite knowledge & wisdom are the best thing ever happaned in the human history.
No wonder those crazy control freaks want to enforce Chinese style censoring and regulation.
They fear that humanity will weak up and challenge them.

[The Solutor]

The internet and the idea of exchanging infinite knowledge & wisdom are the best thing ever happaned in the human history.

 

I completely agree.

No wonder those crazy control freaks want to enforce Chinese style censoring and regulation.

There's no need to look at China, just look at Apple, Google and the other big brothers they are already more powerful than governments, and people (including me and you) are trading pieces of their freedom with tech gadgets and services. We are just like the native Americans when facing the first colony, who offered them "high tech" mirrors, glass pearls, liqueurs...

[RiGS]

Speaking of mass genocide just google Holdren and his cookbook for the extermination of billions, the 'ecoscience'.
He is the current scientific advisor of the Obama administration.

I highly recommend to watch this documentary of Mr. Tarpley.

[video=youtube;H3Xv8CbMFcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Xv8CbMFcc&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

It is time to wake up!

[RiGS]

There's no need to look at China, just look at Apple, Google and the other big brothers they are already more powerful than governments, and people (including me and you) are trading pieces of their freedom with tech gadgets and services. We are just like the native Americans when facing the first colony, who offered them "high tech" mirrors, glass pearls, liqueurs...

 
The main problem with current centralized government is that they influenced by corporate and banking interests acting on their own behalf rathen then the benefit of people.

Actually I'm not trading my freedom for fancy gadgets or at least I try not to do so. I do not even have a regular or conventional job, and I also avoid paying taxes as far as I can, and yes I partly grown my own food.

[RiGS]

A single person cannot change a whole society on its own, but a bunch of people can achieve great changes.

Gandhi is a perfect example and a true idol at least for me.

[keyboardlover]

Gandhi was not an anarchist.

[RiGS]

Really?
http://www.calpeacepower.org/0201/gandhi_anarchist.htm

[keyboardlover]

Yes. That article is flawed. Gandhi was mainy against the caste system.

[RiGS]

I doubt he would ever approve such a left-right political system that is currently going on the West.

[mr_a500]

Speaking of mass genocide just google Holdren and his cookbook for the extermination of billions, the 'ecoscience'.
He is the current scientific advisor of the Obama administration.

I highly recommend to watch this documentary of Mr. Tarpley.

[video=youtube;H3Xv8CbMFcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Xv8CbMFcc&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

It is time to wake up!

I've only watched the first 8 minutes of that, but so far Holdren is 100% correct. The #1 problem IS overpopulation. Nearly every single problem in the world is made easier with less people.

Even anarchy would work better with less people.

[Daniel Beaver]

I doubt he would ever approve such a left-right political system that is currently going on the West.

Let's stop putting words in Gandhi's mouth. That's a poor debate technique.

[RiGS]

Let's stop putting words in Gandhi's mouth. That's a poor debate technique.

 
I did not do that. Simply I expressed my own opinion based on the work and ideas of Gandhi.
There is no need to be offensive.

[RiGS]

I've only watched the first 8 minutes of that, but so far Holdren is 100% correct. The #1 problem IS overpopulation. Nearly every single problem in the world is made easier with less people.

Even anarchy would work better with less people.

 
I suggest you to work on your attention span and watch the whole movie, then think again! Killing billions of people is never a solution.
Besides overpopulation is a myth.

[mr_a500]

I suggest you to work on your attention span and watch the whole movie, then think again! Killing billions of people is never a solution.
Besides overpopulation is a myth.

 
I AM watching the rest of it, (insult goes here). I was half way through it when I saw your new post.

The guy in the video is a simplistic moron. Overpopulation is a myth?? Bull****. I bet if you had hamsters as a child, the cage looked like this:

[RiGS]

Let's not derail this thread.
If you want to debate on overpopulation, I'm more than happy to to that in a new topic.
Besides there is no need to keep those hamsters in such a small cage.

My point was that mass murder is going on in modern centralized democratic systems.

[Lpb45]

As 7bit pointed out that is chaos and local dictature, and a worst example of how an anarchy would look like.
On the contrary those third world countries both have a government, and ruthless warlords/dictators that are gunned and financed by western democracies in order to destabilize the region and steal natural and human resources.
This is a classic example of divide et impera.
With modern techology like Rossi's E-cat or solar power, and agricultural innovation there is easily possible to provide food, shelter and wealth for everyone locally.
People of such a society would be capable to address any issue that may arises down the road.

Mass genocide spiritual and technological rape are all characteristic of modern democracies. Just look who get the Nobel piece award recently. Those people are all involved in mass murder and wars.

 
None of your arguments can be taken seriously when you say things like this "Ruthless warlords/dictators that are gunned and financed by western democracies" you have no facts to back any of this up as usual besides posting videos of conspiracy theorists.  You talk about Utopia yet you treat everyone like **** and constantly troll people.  The main problem with Anarchy is us (Humans) and people like you, it just wouldnt work.

I agree though overpopulation is the pink elephant in the room if countries like India, Pakistan, China dont curb the multiplying there is going to be some very serious wars over food and clean water.  We havent seen a real war in a very very long time

[RiGS]

you treat everyone like **** and constantly troll people

Actually you are the one who act like that, and you're the one who keep insulting me and others all the time.
You obviously don't want to debate or accept any arguments as usual, and you just keep talking **** blindly, while calling everyone a conspiracy theorist.

You should educate yourself on the subject, or at least try to analyze a different perspective.
I recommend you to read the book of Robert Nozick; Anarchy, State, and Utopia, or as a starting point read a a few articles to grasp the idea of anarchism.

We havent seen a real war in a very very long time

U.S. aircraft are conducting air strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and now Somalia. It definitely sounds like some kind of humanitarian 'kinetic military action'.

[keyboardlover]

And THIS is precisely why anarchism doesn't work.

[Lpb45]

Actually you are the one who act like that, and you're the one who keep insulting me and others all the time.
You obviously don't want to debate or accept any arguments as usual, and you just keep talking **** blindly, while calling everyone a conspiracy theorist.

You should educate yourself on the subject, or at least try to analyze a different perspective.
I recommend you to read the book of Robert Nozick; Anarchy, State, and Utopia, or as a starting point read a a few articles to grasp the idea of anarchism.


U.S. aircraft are conducting air strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and now Somalia. It definitely sounds like some kind of humanitarian 'kinetic military action'.

That is not war, that is the USA trying to be the worlds police

[RiGS]

There are already movements like the Free State Project.

[RiGS]

That is not war, that is the USA trying to be the worlds police

Millions of civilians suffer and die in the process. To me it definitely sounds like a war.

[keyboardlover]

There are already movements like the Free State Project.

What does that project have to do with anarchism? Residents of NH still have to abide by federal and state laws.

[Lpb45]

I love how you tell me to educate myself and then link me a conspiracy website.  Laughable.  Whats wrong ?  Dont like it when someone points out all the flaws in your dillusional arguments.  The only person I insulted was you,  bring me FACTS and then we can have a real discussion.  I am sure you will bring up the nothing is fact symantics bull****.

[Lpb45]

Millions of civilians suffer and die in the process. To me it definitely sounds like a war.

Sounds to me like everyday on planet earth.  A couple hundred years ago thousands of people died in a war,  in WW1 and WW2 Millions of people died, in the next real war billions are going to die and I fear the day that happens

[RiGS]

I love how you tell me to educate myself and then link me a conspiracy website.  Laughable.  Whats wrong ?  Dont like it when someone points out all the flaws in your dillusional arguments.  The only person I insulted was you,  bring me FACTS and then we can have a real discussion.  I am sure you will bring up the nothing is fact symantics bull****.

 
See? That's what I was talking about. You clearly closed your mind, and you dont want to explore perspectives other than yours, and as a result you miss the whole picture.
I'm okay with that. I don't want to convince you, or sell you anything.

[Lpb45]

I have no problem exploring other perspectives just not yours and from this thread I am not alone in that feeling.

TBH I dont really know what you are asking for here,  if you want to have a real discussion put more in the first post about what this thread is about.  Would anarchy be Utopia?  Would it even be possible with the way our human brains work?

[RiGS]

For the record Anarchy, State, and Utopia was the winner of the 1975 National Book Award.
According to the Wikipedia, it has been translated into 11 languages and was named one of the "100 most influential books since the war" by the Times Literary Supplement.

I also suggest you to have a character and speak for yourself. You shouldn't be throwing **** on me just because you disagree with me.
There is an option to avoid/ignore this thread as well.

The point of this thread is to express and exchange different perspectives preferably in a cultural way.

[Lpb45]

Quit crying, you asked for it when you make threads like this.  If you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen.  Nobody is ever going to take you seriously when you try to backup what you say with videos of KNOWN conspiracy theorists.  So take your own advise and ignore me,  isnt that normally what a conspiracy theorist does when confronted with facts and people who dont buy their bs.

[RiGS]

I will since you cannot cooperate in a cultural manner.

[ClosedBSD]

Anarchy means absence of government. That doesn't mean that people in an anarchist society can't address arising problems and work together to build something better.

 

..and from those groups of people in the society, solving problems together, a natural power structure will arise as it always does. Humanity, as a whole, prefers structure; something that anarchy does not provide

[RiGS]

Here are some videos of a police state. These are made after the events when the Greek parliament agreed to Mafia-like terms demanded by the international loan sharking operation.

[video=youtube;qLRqgpcvnag]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qLRqgpcvnag[/video]
[video=youtube;S20_JuaX8gg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S20_JuaX8gg[/video]
[video=youtube;b_j0cIIboGA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_j0cIIboGA&feature=player_embedded[/video]

[ClosedBSD]

Here are some videos of a police state. These are made after the events when the Greek parliament agreed to Mafia-like terms demanded by the international loan sharking operation.

I don't get it, are you suggesting that structured groups of militants wouldn't exist in anarchy? I think the bigger issue here is the lack of regulation of the lending agencies that caused this mess, not the presence of a state.

[RiGS]

A stateless free market can produce protection and defense.

[RiGS]

I don't get it, are you suggesting that structured groups of militants wouldn't exist in anarchy? I think the bigger issue here is the lack of regulation of the lending agencies that caused this mess, not the presence of a state.

 
The dissatisfaction of angry people is what caused this mess. They were dissatisfied for a good reason.

[RiGS]

I don't suggest that anarchy is perfect, but a free market is definitely better than some sort of government enforcing their rules for corporate profit.
Even corruption is better without the government. More money stays in your pocket in the long run.

[ClosedBSD]

A stateless free market can produce protection and defense.

A stateless free market would lead to private protection groups like Blackwater, who would strictly work for rich people

[curzen]

if you like to live in **** it sure is utopia

[RiGS]

Not necessarily. There always would be a market for security companies which specialize in providing protection for the general masses, but without a corrupt government that acts as a middleman.

[ClosedBSD]

Not necessarily. There always would be a market for security companies which specialize in providing protection for the general masses, but without a corrupt government that acts as a middleman.

So what happens when these companies start buying each other out and centralizing, since there is no state to prevent monopolies? Now we basically just have a standing army that everyone has to pay for, just like, you know, the government.

Except since they are a private company, they are even less beholden to their customers.

[ClosedBSD]

I don't suggest that anarchy is perfect, but a free market is definitely better than some sort of government enforcing their rules for corporate profit.
Even corruption is better without the government. More money stays in your pocket in the long run.

Do you have a shred of evidence for any of these claims?

[RiGS]

They don't have to pay if they're not statisfied with their quality of service. People as shareholders can always specify in a contract that they are not allowing to sell the company to a third party.
Where is competition there is always more room for bargaining. Remember the government role is to kill the competition for corporate profit.

[RiGS]

Do you have a shred of evidence for any of these claims?

 
What type of evidence do you refer in a philosophical thread? The only evidence is the common sense.

[Lpb45]

They don't have to pay if they're not statisfied with their quality of service. People as shareholders can always specify in a contract that they are not allowing to sell the company to a third party.
Where is competition there is always more room for bargaining. Remember the government role is to kill the competition for corporate profit.

So who upholds this contract when one of them decides to not honor it?

[Lpb45]

So what happens when these companies start buying each other out and centralizing, since there is no state to prevent monopolies? Now we basically just have a standing army that everyone has to pay for, just like, you know, the government.

Except since they are a private company, they are even less beholden to their customers.

This!

Has alot to do with what I was saying earlier about the warlords in the lawless countries in Africa.

[ClosedBSD]

What type of evidence do you refer in a philosophical thread? The only evidence is the common sense.

See, this is the inherent problem with free-market advocates - they always assume that all people involved are completely rational, honest with each other, and are working with the same information at all times, putting everyone on an equal playing field; when this has never been the case at any point in human history.

This is why I was never a fan of anarchism/libertarianism or likewise, pure Marxism. Both theories start breaking down, very quickly in anarchism's case, when you inject humans and human nature into the system.