Author Topic: still waiting for my M  (Read 30223 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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still waiting for my M
« on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 12:59:40 »
I have to admit, waiting is, indeed, the hardest part.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #1 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:04:48 »
: ) you will have it soon enough.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #2 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:06:56 »
:)  Sadly I only ordered it 2 days ago, so I figure I have another 3 or 4 days possibly to wait. All I can say is it better come before the thanksgiving break! I'll need something to draw me away from the relatives ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #3 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:07:27 »
[oh, this is the "slow friday afternoon lunch break" thread, by the way ;) ]

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #4 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:09:06 »
On another note, I was curious about the Scorpius M10 you have. I was wondering if you would open it up to inspect the quality of construction.
Someone else here had done this I think and had noted that the quality of the soldering was not so good. I was wondering if that was just a fluke or if it was something common.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #5 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:09:56 »
I just got back from lunch, we went to a Chinese buffet. I am so done.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #6 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:14:00 »
Quote from: bigpook;12024
I just got back from lunch, we went to a Chinese buffet. I am so done.


lol, I know that feeling ;)
Next week is a lovely short week too. Half the people where I work already left for vacation and wont be in on mon and tues.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #7 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:15:45 »
I had Chipotle for lunch. :)

(And, I didn't work this week. I was supposed to be on a 4 week project, but the company that I was doing the project for ran out of funding, and ended the project after a week.)

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #8 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:17:37 »
Quote from: bigpook;12023
On another note, I was curious about the Scorpius M10 you have. I was wondering if you would open it up to inspect the quality of construction.
Someone else here had done this I think and had noted that the quality of the soldering was not so good. I was wondering if that was just a fluke or if it was something common.


I could open it up (and prolly will at some point), though at the moment I'm still basking in its clickety shiny glory and dont have the heart to do it just yet. ;) I know, call me sentimental. But actually I think the construction issues are valid. I've seen those complaints all over the place, on geekhack but also for instance on an amazon.com review as well. I wouldnt be surprised if I open mine up and gag at the soldering mess. :) (Thats partly why I dont want to do it just yet, I'm fairly certain I wont like what I see, and for the moment since I'm just so happy with it, I'd like to keep the illusion for a few days at least :) )

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #9 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:19:38 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;12029
I had Chipotle for lunch. :)

hmmm, chipotle!

I had a hankering for pizza, having two slices. One is plain cheese with hot sauce on it. The other is olives/mushrooms with hot sauce on it. And an orange soda (Fanta!).

Quote

(And, I didn't work this week. I was supposed to be on a 4 week project, but the company that I was doing the project for ran out of funding, and ended the project after a week.)


boy this economy is brutal.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #10 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:20:21 »
Quote
I have to admit, waiting is, indeed, the hardest part.

Anticipation is the best.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:24:57 »
Quote from: lowpoly;12032
Anticipation is the best.


I suppose its giving me something to look forward to :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lexicon

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« Reply #12 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:29:21 »
Quote from: wellington1869;12020
:)  Sadly I only ordered it 2 days ago, so I figure I have another 3 or 4 days possibly to wait. All I can say is it better come before the thanksgiving break! I'll need something to draw me away from the relatives ;)


And if they get really out of line, you'll be able to whack them with it!
IBM Model M 1391401 (1989)
IBM Model M 52G9658 (1993) x2
Unicomp Customizer 101 (black)
Solidtek ASK-6600U
Dell AT101W (way too many)
Dell AT101W (black)
Silicon Graphics AT-101 (1993)
Cherry G84-4100

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #13 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:35:00 »
I had pizza for lunch, I just need to go home.  The departments I support are under activity freezes until the end of the year, so I don't have jack to do for a while.  Fortunately, I am going to take 3 weeks of vacation between now and then.  My first week starts in about 3 and a half hours. :)


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #14 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:36:04 »
Quote from: lexicon;12038
And if they get really out of line, you'll be able to whack them with it!


An excellent way to introduce them to the wonders of the M ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #15 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:36:38 »
Quote from: itlnstln;12042
I had pizza for lunch, I just need to go home.  The departments I support are under activity freezes until the end of the year, so I don't have jack to do for a while.  Fortunately, I am going to take 3 weeks of vacation between now and then.  My first week starts in about 3 and a half hours. :)


doing anything special on your time off?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #16 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:44:15 »
Quote from: wellington1869
boy this economy is brutal.


Indeed.

(In this case, a levy that they needed for operating funds failed.)

(Now that I actually got my Belkin adapter to accept my M13's TrackPoint, I'm giving the M13 a go. It definitely feels... weird. I'd almost say that it's not smooth, especially near the beginning and end of a key's travel.)

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #17 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:46:08 »
on another note, I just sold a broken down toshiba laptop for parts on ebay and surprisingly got enough for it to cover my various keyboarding adventures during the last month!
Geez, what else have I got around here that doesnt work? Its garage sale time!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #18 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 13:58:16 »
Hey, I've got a whole car for parts that doesn't work that I'm trying to sell in pieces. :p

Anyone want a VW diesel engine? :p

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #19 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 14:31:58 »
Quote from: wellington1869;12044
doing anything special on your time off?


Plenty of disc golf and some time with both my and my fiancee's family for Thanksgiving.  I return to work for three weeks, then I have 12/22 (my birthday) until 1/5 off.  Again, more disc golf (depending on the weather; I hate the cold, therefore, I live in Texas), more family time for Xmas, and sleep.  I will be on vacation by myself since my fiancee will be working during that same stretch, so I won't be taking any major trips or anything.


Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #20 on: Fri, 21 November 2008, 14:43:44 »
Mmm, can't wait for a nice layer of black ice and plenty of snow on a Sunday... then I can hit up a local college's parking lots and have some fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4__2mHuRs

Unfortunately, I won't be getting that this Sunday. :(

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #21 on: Tue, 25 November 2008, 10:33:27 »
Still waiting for this damn thing.  Maybe I should prod the guy with an email to find out when it was mailed. It better come today or tomorrow cuz else I wont get it till the following monday (going to be out of town). Argh.
well it wasnt in the usps today, so last chance for today would be the ups guy who comes by around 5pm.  Else i've got my hopes pinned on tomorrow...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #22 on: Tue, 25 November 2008, 16:18:32 »
argh, just heard from the seller, he hasnt mailed it yet! Something about his staff being out sick. Gah.
Says he is going to put it in the mail today. What that means (in addition to a much longer wait) is that I'm going to have to actually interact with relatives this weekend.
Gah, again.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lam47

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« Reply #23 on: Tue, 25 November 2008, 16:21:09 »
Oh that's no fun at all!
Just keep prepping for the new arrival.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #24 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 10:47:36 »
its here! its here! :D  Havent opened it yet, will do that right after dinner...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #25 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 10:50:19 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13257
its here! its here! :D  Havent opened it yet, will do that right after dinner...


I don't think I could wait that long.....every keyboard that came in the mail was opened straight away : )
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #26 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 10:52:46 »
Quote from: bigpook;13259
I don't think I could wait that long.....every keyboard that came in the mail was opened straight away : )


Ok I couldnt wait either! :D Hahahahaha! I just took it out of the box, took a deep breath, and hit the "A" key - and OMG it was like a religious experience :D
I had really forgotten what M's are like (last one I had in my hands was 6 years or so ago). OMG its different from everything else, *no question about it* :D

Ok so I'll write up a detailed review with pics some time after dinner...

(and while I hate to say it, its likely that I'm going to have a barely used M10 with blue cherries for sale soon... :o )

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lam47

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« Reply #27 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 10:53:23 »
Pics as soon as you can.
Also let me know if you think the bottom row is softer.
Such a long wait I'm glad its got to you at last.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #28 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 11:51:24 »
Quote from: lam47;13262
Pics as soon as you can.
Also let me know if you think the bottom row is softer.
Such a long wait I'm glad its got to you at last.


bottom row -- you mean the spacebar row? or the zxcv row?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #29 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 13:01:49 »
the board is fantastic in terms of sound and tactile feel just like I remember. However this particular board has a few issues, which I'm trying to figure out if they're fatal or not.
-Not so fatal is 3 missing keycaps. I emailed the seller about that.
-possibly fatal is missed characters and ghost characters, I'm trying to figure out if this has anything to do with my ps2-usb adapter or with the board itself...

But what this board has already shown me is how much I miss BS switches :D

The nice thing about this board also is it is the low-toned click which I like so much (ie, I know some BS switches can be higher-toned and lighter; this one is low-toned and relatively stiff keys, which is just what I was looking for).

(also, strangely, the entire keyboard smells like laundry detergent :)  (actually I think its fabric softener!) :confused:

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline lam47

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« Reply #30 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 19:51:49 »
the zxcv row on mine is a lot quieter.
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #31 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 20:12:45 »
Wellington, it's probably your adapter.  PS2 to USB adapters have been known to cause odd behaviour with Ms.


Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #32 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 23:24:39 »
The Bytecc BT-2000 is dirt cheap on Newegg, and works, although the ones I've had reset every 10 minutes or so with a Model M.

The Belkin F5U119vE1 (which Wal-Mart sells for $15) works perfectly, in my experience. With a Model M13, I had to plug in the mouse first, but otherwise, it worked with that, even.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #33 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 23:49:27 »
Quote from: lam47;13304
the zxcv row on mine is a lot quieter.


hey lam, my zxcv row seems to be same loudness as the other keys.
Could it be that someone tried to grease your zxcv springs?

The spacebar on this one was way louder than the other keys. A touch of grease did wonders for it, now its about the same loudness. Also interesting in this case is I didnt grease the spring itself to bring down the volume of the bottoming-out "rattle". I merely greased the sides of the plunger on the underside of the key itself. I was suprised that that affected volume quite nicely.

Overall, the springs themselves seem quieter than I remember (but in a good way for me since I have noise issues). I actually used the board for most of the night and did not get any complaints :)  I know with certain BS boards I did get complaints, so it does seem to be that different makes and models even of BS boards throw off different sound tonalities (different in both pitch and volume). I think (my best guess so far) it has a lot to do with the weight and heft of keys, keycaps, and overall board.   On the louder ones I do have to grease the springs to tamp down click tone and volume, on this one I may not need to.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #34 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 23:53:06 »
I wonder if this mod helps when using USB adapters:
http://www.geocities.com/jszybowski/keyboard/index.htm

On my hubs there is 500mA available per port, but maybe external power (regulated) might help.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 23:53:49 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;13343
The Bytecc BT-2000 is dirt cheap on Newegg, and works, although the ones I've had reset every 10 minutes or so with a Model M.

The Belkin F5U119vE1 (which Wal-Mart sells for $15) works perfectly, in my experience. With a Model M13, I had to plug in the mouse first, but otherwise, it worked with that, even.


thanks Bht, i'll look into those.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 02 December 2008, 23:59:43 »
This is the USB adapter I have for my Model M, and it works great:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10404&cs_id=1040401&p_id=173&seq=1&format=2

I use it with a KVM switch with no issues.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #37 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 01:07:24 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13352
This is the USB adapter I have for my Model M, and it works great:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10404&cs_id=1040401&p_id=173&seq=1&format=2

I use it with a KVM switch with no issues.


Thanks. Looks like I should probably pick up one of these.  Also as an update, the board didnt work in a ps2 port ("keyboard failure") so I'm getting a replacement from the seller...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline andb

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« Reply #38 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 13:20:52 »
Wellington1869, its a shame that you had such a bad experience with delivery and quality. If anyone else is interested in IBM Model M keyboards, I can highly recommend this seller, he has a truckload of them: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/ncbound10_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ  Look for the refurbished M, which is a "buy it now" for $39. Between me and my friends we've bought four of these. Mine is from '89, so one of the really well made ones. Perfect condition, you'd think it was new. Was mailed the next day.

For me, the coolest are the oldest type, which is before the drainage holes and the blue ibm logo. Look for or ask for the grey IBM logo anytime you buy and you have a good chance it will be one of these.

The sound Ive found can often be a function of the resonance of your table. No joke. Try it on your lap. How is the sound? In my lap, my M is quieter than a membrane 'board on my desk. In this position I also use less force typing, probably because Im more directly above the keys. I'm thinking to get a dampening material, like that asphault paper used in car doors to deaden the sound to put under the board, see how that changes things.

Or maybe I just have a bad desk?

Offline iMav

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still waiting for my M
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 17:22:38 »
The keyboard drawer I use from Ikea helps dampen the sounds quite a bit (and is as solid as having it sit ON the desk).

As far as Model M's are concerned...now that I know you can get replacement frame assemblies (with keys included) from Unicomp for $25, I wouldn't be all that worried about condition as long as the shell is in good shape and the controller works.  (unfortunately, they don't have/won't make 84-key spacesaver frame assemblies)  

Also a great way for our UK members to get a Model M in their layout.  Buy a standard Model M and then buy a new frame assembly with the UK layout from Unicomp for $25.

Offline lam47

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« Reply #40 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 18:27:00 »
So they have the UK frames! Nice one!!!!
Im going to be after one with blank keys :)
Any idea on shipping iMav?

(I'm excited now :) )
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline iMav

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still waiting for my M
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 18:38:50 »
Quote from: lam47;13463
So they have the UK frames! Nice one!!!!
Im going to be after one with blank keys :)
Any idea on shipping iMav?

(I'm excited now :) )

I've got a post office about two blocks from my house.  ;)

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #42 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 20:46:34 »
So the saga continues... the seller is going to mail me a replacement. So you figure another week or 10 days... :)
On the bright side, he let me keep the busted one, which I think I'll be able to use for parts... I'll probably try an experiment where I take an endurapro or unicomp and try to transplant it into the model M casing (which is heavier and nicer) (kind of like how iMav did with the M2 casings recently).  That would give me the usb connex within an old M case.  I'd also definitely transplant the heavier keys and keycaps, and eventually (when I have the time) maybe even transplant the springs :)  If all that works out basically I'd have newer unicomp electronics and USB connection within an old M board, which would be nice.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #43 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 20:50:30 »
Quote from: andb;13435


The sound Ive found can often be a function of the resonance of your table. No joke. Try it on your lap. How is the sound? In my lap, my M is quieter than a membrane 'board on my desk. In this position I also use less force typing, probably because Im more directly above the keys. I'm thinking to get a dampening material, like that asphault paper used in car doors to deaden the sound to put under the board, see how that changes things.

Or maybe I just have a bad desk?


andb, if you find a place that sells a nice sound dampening sheet for cheap, pls post the link here :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline iMav

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« Reply #44 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 21:08:46 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13494
On the bright side, he let me keep the busted one, which I think I'll be able to use for parts... I'll probably try an experiment where I take an endurapro or unicomp and try to transplant it into the model M casing (which is heavier and nicer)

Be aware that the frame assemblies from an "old" Model M are different than a "new" Model M (Unicomp)...so they likely won't fit properly.  Unicomp refers to these as the "old manufacturing process frame assemblies" and the "new manufacturing process frame assemblies".  :)

(which is why it is important to give them the P/N off the 'board you want to order a new frame assembly for)

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #45 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 21:16:26 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13496
andb, if you find a place that sells a nice sound dampening sheet for cheap, pls post the link here :)


You might just want to try a old-school foam mousepad under your keyboard.  I put one under my Evolution, and it helped a little with resonance within the keyboard.  It will also help greatly with any desk resonance you might have.


Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #46 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 21:19:19 »
Of course, that keyboard failing may not have been the keyboard.

PS/2 ports can be picky, too. (My mom's ASRock board can't handle a Model M over PS/2.)

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #47 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 21:25:31 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;13504
Of course, that keyboard failing may not have been the keyboard.

PS/2 ports can be picky, too. (My mom's ASRock board can't handle a Model M over PS/2.)


That's good to know.  I have an ASRock board in my PC at home, but I have my M connected via USB through a KVM switch.  I was thinking about connecting directly to the PC via PS2 since I don't use my laptop's docking station that much.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #48 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 22:35:02 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;13504
Of course, that keyboard failing may not have been the keyboard.

PS/2 ports can be picky, too. (My mom's ASRock board can't handle a Model M over PS/2.)


I ordered the ziotek ps2-usb adapter, so when it gets here I'll try it out on the old board just in case... tho my feeling is in this case it is the board, because on those same dell computers I know one of my work colleagues had previously used a model M on the ps2 port and it had worked fine...

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #49 on: Wed, 03 December 2008, 22:38:18 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13502
You might just want to try a old-school foam mousepad under your keyboard.  I put one under my Evolution, and it helped a little with resonance within the keyboard.  It will also help greatly with any desk resonance you might have.


I've also been considering the sheets of sound absorption material they sell to stick on the underside of stereo speakers. (like these). peel and stick and made for just that purpose (to kill resonance).

there's also stick-on felt pads like these that might work for this purpose.

i also want to use house insulation spray foam (comes in a can) to fill up any empty spaces within the casing :) I think that would further reduce echoes and resonance.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #50 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 01:54:18 »
Quote from: iMav;13499
Be aware that the frame assemblies from an "old" Model M are different than a "new" Model M (Unicomp)...so they likely won't fit properly.  Unicomp refers to these as the "old manufacturing process frame assemblies" and the "new manufacturing process frame assemblies".  :)

(which is why it is important to give them the P/N off the 'board you want to order a new frame assembly for)


well I'll open a project thread on this once i'm ready to do it (I dont even have the nut drivers with which to open the M case :) Just ordered those too).  So I'm not sure yet what parts are what and what I'll need to order. Will be interesting to try though.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #51 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 03:34:24 »
basically I would really like to try to drop endura pro internals into a 1391401 shell.

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Offline iMav

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« Reply #52 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 03:41:33 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13567
basically I would really like to try to drop endura pro internals into a 1391401 shell.

So you want one of these...

(aka the M13)

Check it
This too

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #53 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 03:43:56 »
Quote from: iMav;13568
So you want one of these...


haha! basically, yes -- but with what I'm imagining is a heavier case, shell, and keys from the original M (and thus a heavier board and lower toned sounds, according to theory) :)

(and what i'd get over the m13 is shorter spacebar (which I like and kind of need) and usb (which I'd like) and lower current draw (supposedly the M draws 100 times more current than modern boards!)

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Offline andb

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« Reply #54 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 20:18:40 »
About pads under a 'board, Im thinking about getting a leather writing pad, maybe something like http://www.ebags.com/bosca/old_leather_34_x_20_desk_pad/product_detail/index.cfm?modelid=67381&productid=792934&sourceID=GOOGFEED&color=Dark%20Brown&CAWELAID=26892878. I think it should be effective and definitely looks better then my asphalt sheet idea!

Offline skriefal

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« Reply #55 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 20:43:50 »
You can find those desk pads at Office Max, Office Depot, etc, for $20 or so.  They won't be made from leather, but they're a lot cheaper than the leather variety!

Offline Busty

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« Reply #56 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 21:54:30 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13307
Wellington, it's probably your adapter.  PS2 to USB adapters have been known to cause odd behaviour with Ms.


I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #57 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 22:00:04 »
Quote from: Busty;13729
I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.


can you get this in european amazon? If it works well on PC's I imagine it would work well on macs...

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Offline secularzarathustra

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« Reply #58 on: Thu, 04 December 2008, 22:29:07 »
This is the one I have and it works on my wife's macbook
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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #59 on: Fri, 05 December 2008, 06:12:12 »
I use a $15 Radio Shack brand one. I have a had one for a few years now and it's still working good on my M mini.

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #60 on: Fri, 05 December 2008, 09:57:43 »
Quote from: Busty;13729
I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.

I'll try mine on Monday. This will be with Windows though.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #61 on: Fri, 05 December 2008, 16:32:56 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13521
I've also been considering the sheets of sound absorption material they sell to stick on the underside of stereo speakers. (like these). peel and stick and made for just that purpose (to kill resonance).


so I bought a bunch of these neoprene stick on pads to kill resonance. I'll try them out soon as they get here, hope they work!
The M isnt as loud as I remember (tho I think this is one of the lower volume m's). The noise is just on the borderline, I think if I can kill the desk resonance just a little it might be good to go. Wont have to grease the springs or anything.

I did grease the plungers though (not the springs), initially in order to lower resistance a touch (which it did) but a side-effect was that it also did change tone just slightly (made it a touch more lower toned). Which is fine I guess, every little bit helps :)

Most people prolly wont notice the slight changes to tone and volume, but I'm hyper sensitive to it since I need to keep noise down in my room...

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Offline andb

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« Reply #62 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 02:52:14 »
Im not sure if I mentioned earlier, but not too long ago I started typing with my M on my lap. Not only is it much more comfortable then on my rather too high desk, but its also quieter. Partially because I find that I can type with just the exact amount of pressure needed to activate the key, partially due to there being no desk resonance. For example, I used to slap the spacebar which sounded like a misfiring engine. Now its one of the quietest keys.

I thought it odd at first to type with the keyboard on my lap, but it does really work and the M's battleship bulk makes it very stable, it is well suited for such placement.

Offline iMav

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« Reply #63 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 03:50:08 »
I use keyboard drawers from Ikea which both place the keyboard at optimal height for me, but also provide decent sound dampening.  They have some foam/rubber "stuff" on them that do a good job in that regard.  They are also incredibly solid and stable...just as sturdy as if the keyboard was on the desk.

Here's an older pic of one of them in my home office (after I had first assembled my new desk setup).


Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #64 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 05:57:50 »
Looks like this one will work:

http://cgi.ebay.de/USB-PS-2-Konverter-aktiv-2x-PS-2-Adapter-an-USB-Port_W0QQitemZ220324741677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Technik_Computerzubeh%C3%B6r_Kabel_Adapter?hash=item220324741677

I'm currently writing this post with it (Windows Vista). I didn't test it that long. It's also one of the few that can handle a Trackpoint II.

Edit: works on Linux too.

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Offline Busty

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« Reply #65 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 06:19:01 »
Danke lowpoly.

What is the difference between active and passive adapters? Is it related to drivers for ps/2 devices that don't support USB natively or is it the higher current needed for mechanical keyboards?

Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #66 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 06:29:26 »
I tried the passive ones with several (older) boards. Never worked. IIRC, the board pcb has to support both modes for the passive adapters to work. And this is never the case with older boards.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #67 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 09:44:01 »
Quote from: Busty;13867
Danke lowpoly.

What is the difference between active and passive adapters? Is it related to drivers for ps/2 devices that don't support USB natively or is it the higher current needed for mechanical keyboards?


According to the description on the clickykeyboards website, passive ones just have pass through wires, while active ones have a chip inside that converts the signal...

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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #68 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 10:42:58 »
Exactly. Passive adapters are used for devices that have both USB and PS/2 controllers inside, but a PS/2 connector. (And, there are passive adapters to go the other way, too - USB connector to PS/2 port.)

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #69 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 12:40:12 »
Incidentally my white alps board should be arriving today (smk-85, refurbished, DSI). Looking forward to it. Hopefully this one will work! :)
I havent spent much time with white alps, just 10 minutes with a macally in J&R, though those 10 minutes made me want to know more ;)

I have to say I'm loving the M (while it feels like working anyway, still waiting for the replacement.) But I had forgotten what a joy it is to type on the M all day long and never get tired of it.

Thats the amazing thing about the M, for me anyway. Is that you can honestly type on it all day and its such an incredibly satisfying experience, the combination of solid tactile feel and solid audible feedback makes you feel like you're working with your hands in a wood working shop. It helps allieve some of the alienation and isolation of the body that one often feels when working with soulless computers in soulless offices :)


Its not even like "click click click", its more like "ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk".  :D  Feel like I'm driving a steam engine or something when I type.

The white alps was intrigueing too, typing on it was like "snap, snap, snap". Very sharp "snap" sound, like I was shooting rubberbands at someone with every keypress. Also satisfying though in a different way. Also more of a "floaty" feeling with the keys, much lighter touch and barely needed to bottom out. It was really satisfying come to think of it.  So it will be interesting for me to compare these two side by side, finally.

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #70 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 13:30:27 »
While I love Alps switches, I do like deeper "clack"" of the BSs vs. the "snap" of the Alps.  Even though the feel is great, I really do like softer, more solid sound of the BSs and Cherry MLs (not that the Alps aren't solid by any means, it's just that the BSs feel "meatier").  I would love to try an ErgoPlus, but the price of the US version and the frustration of using an EU version is a showstopper.  I think I would thoroughly enjoy a Cherry brown 'board now that I used an ML4100.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #71 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 13:50:14 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13887
(not that the Alps aren't solid by any means, it's just that the BSs feel "meatier")..


ya, exactly.

ok, just got the white alps board (smk 85). Question: arent white alps supposed to click? (not just the bottoming out clack, but also a click on the way down?)
At least thats how I remember them from the store...  unless I was mistaking bottoming out clack for a click?

The smk85 I have in my hands right now - looks like, first of all, its strongman (and thats fine). The switches are white and rectangular (like white alps) but dont say 'alps' on them so they're strongman (and there is a big strong man label on the back of the board). And thats fine. However, there is no discernable "click" on the way down, only a bottoming out 'snap' (which does sound familiar to me, if I recall my experience with the macally). But I could have sworn there was a click on the way down... isnt there?

And if there isnt a click on the way down, whats the diff then between black and white alps! I thought that was the difference!


(incidentally I do like the feel quite a bit, have to play with it a bit more though).

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #72 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 13:56:45 »
On real Alps switches, there is supposed to be a click about 1/3 of the way down the keystroke, but I don't know about Strongmans.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #73 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 14:04:06 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13889
On real Alps switches, there is supposed to be a click about 1/3 of the way down the keystroke, but I don't know about Strongmans.


There is definitely a tactile bump 1/3 of the way down, and there is a very very light sound there, but not what I'd call a click I guess.

The overall feel though is pretty close to what I remember with the macally.

Other than the possibly missing click, the other thing i'm noticing right away is:
a) gunshot spacebar when it bottoms (this seems to be a common thing with mechanical keyboards! I'm going to dampen that at some point.
b) hitting keys offcenter is a bit odd (I think others have talked about this before). With the regular keys, hitting them offcenter, you notice both friction/noise as well as the key not depressing as easily. WIth big keys like the enter key, hitting it off center you notice a lot of difference in resistance.

On the whole though its not a bad feeling board at all, i'm flying on it in terms of typing, and despite virtually no click except bottoming (and topping) clacks, the feedback is quite positive, almost on par with the M. Also the "floating" sensation is there, pretty much like how I remember it.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #74 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 14:11:40 »
by the way, this is exactly the one I got. Sounds like it too. Which is strange - cuz the keyb there is 'force reduced' with the clicking metal leaf removed from the switches!

by the way, it appears that others on geekhack have received "non clicky" smk85's from DSI before (and called them "lemons!").
Mine is definitley non-clicky. And looks like I got a lemon too, therefore.  (I just have to decide if I want to keep it anyway since I may want something less noisy anyway... or exchange it for the real thing). I think I'll probably exchange it for the real thing, because I can always remove the click-leaf inside the keys myself if I want to get rid of the click). Better to have a non-lemon keyboard to begin with...

My keyboard luck has been pretty bad lately. :(

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #75 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 14:37:04 »
Mine had black sliders and the keyboard was noisy as hell. My MK96 on the other hand (which I get out every other day lately because of you  Wellington) clicks louder than the BS and it happens about a third of the way down. So even if you are careful to not bottom out it still is loud.

And I'm with you when you say the BS feel more solid than Alps. They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #76 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 14:52:33 »
Quote
They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!


QFT.  I love my Alps, but occasionally I pine for something a little less sharp, like brown Cherries perhaps.


Offline bigpook

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« Reply #77 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 15:03:50 »
Quote from: xsphat;13896
Mine had black sliders and the keyboard was noisy as hell. My MK96 on the other hand (which I get out every other day lately because of you  Wellington) clicks louder than the BS and it happens about a third of the way down. So even if you are careful to not bottom out it still is loud.

And I'm with you when you say the BS feel more solid than Alps. They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!


What do you mean by the BS feeling more solid then the Alps?
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #78 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 15:04:05 »
Quote from: xsphat;13896

That's why you have to have both!


totally agreed! :)

I'm definitely going to have both. I'm typing on the smk-85 even without the click I'm loving it, my fingers are *flying*. Great feedback even when its just tactile; the sharp snap (when it works!) adds to the enjoyment.

So I definitely want both; which means I have to exchange this lemon and get one that actually clicks :)

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #79 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 15:04:43 »
Quote from: bigpook;13898
What do you mean by the BS feeling more solid then the Alps?


ka-chunk ka-chunk versus snap snap

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #80 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 15:07:13 »
Quote from: itlnstln;13897
QFT.  I love my Alps, but occasionally I pine for something a little less sharp, like brown Cherries perhaps.


its funny, while both brown and blue cherries were very cool, I'm all over the bs and alps for the moment. *love* them both... feeling much more feedback (on all my senses) with both of those than with any cherry, and so they both feel faster, feel more accurate, more enjoyable, and etc. To me anyway...

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #81 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 15:27:09 »
The saga rolls on... so I contacted DSI about exchanging this for one that actually clicks...
Oh, to make things worse, the right arrow key got stuck (again just like sf-applet's experience)

If they'll exchange it tho I'll happily keep it, as I would very much like to have both bs and white alps.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #82 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 17:16:41 »
Strange, been typing on this for a couple of hours now, and I kinda like it! I mean even without the click. It still feels like white alps but without most of the noise.
Hell, maybe I should keep it.
(The stuck right arrow turned out to be caused by the plastic casing that came loose, I snapped it back shut and now its ok).
I think tomorrow I'll take a subway trip down to J&R and try that macally again, and then decide whether I want normal white alps or this wacky silenced one. Its pretty great to type on... if you want a light touch board, white alps rock.  Its also a nice complement to buckling springs if you like swapping back and forth between heavy touch and light touch the way I seem to be liking.

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #83 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 17:32:30 »
How would you compare it to the brown MX in the Compaq you had? Do you find it as easy to bottom out on the SMK-85? I hope they test the one they send you if you do decide to exchange it.

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« Reply #84 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 17:59:03 »
Quote from: Chloe;13924
How would you compare it to the brown MX in the Compaq you had? Do you find it as easy to bottom out on the SMK-85? I hope they test the one they send you if you do decide to exchange it.


Hmmm, thats a good question...  I guess I'd say in comparison to the browns, these:
-have slightly more resistance. (even though I'd still class these as light touch; they're not even close to black cherries which have too much resistance for me, and not as much as buckling springs either)). I like this level of resistance better than browns, it seems I've steadily gravitated towards increased resistance ever since using the browns on the compaq.
-Tactile bump on these comes earlier, I think. Just slightly. Also its more pronounced.
-These also pushback more. Gives that 'floating' feeling when you type fast. Browns didnt pushback much at all (in comparison to these anyway).
-these have a slightly deeper throw, I think -- feels that way, only just slightly though.
-and of course when they're working normally, these have a fairly loud click.

So basically they're like browns that have been working out a bit. :)  But still in the "light touch" category. But as a result the overall tactility and feedback is pushed up a notch compared to the browns.

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #85 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 18:17:38 »
Thanks wellington, it sounds like I will like these. :) I do like the browns but want them to be more tactile, and sometimes they feel a bit too passive.

I wonder how these switches you have differ internally to clicky white ALPS. I think if you take the click out it makes them linear?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #86 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 18:24:57 »
Quote from: Chloe;13934

Thanks wellington, it sounds like I will like these

I think you'd like them too, based on what you were saying. they're still quite light. I'm discovering that a good match between typist and keyboard is all about tuning. Really tiny shifts in sound or resistance make big differences in accuracy and comfort. These would only be incrementally different from browns, and yet different enough.

Quote

I wonder how these switches you have differ internally to clicky white ALPS. I think if you take the click out it makes them linear?


ya, thats one of the things thats weird about these. I dont think its just a case of a missing metal leaf. Maybe there are two kinds of strongmans? There were a variety of alps switches after all (and color coding wasnt really a 100% reliable way to tell them apart).

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #87 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 19:23:57 »
I'm thinking they're "gray" strongmans, if there is such a thing.
Chloe, do you know of any obscure web pages with info on gray strongmans? ;)

By the way, the http://www.strong-man.com.tw website isnt up any more?

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Offline cchan

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« Reply #88 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 19:50:11 »
http://64.176.254.221/ ... Their forward DNS is broken it seems.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #89 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 19:53:38 »
Quote from: Tales;13949
http://64.176.254.221/ ... Their forward DNS is broken it seems.


thanks! love the geekhack hive mind.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #90 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 20:19:55 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13946
I'm thinking they're "gray" strongmans, if there is such a thing.
Chloe, do you know of any obscure web pages with info on gray strongmans? ;)


It might be worth taking one apart to see how the leaf and stem compare to these:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot3.htm
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot2.htm

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #91 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 20:20:36 »
Quote
STRONG WANGS ENTERPRISE CO., LTD.


Wow.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #92 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 20:24:04 »
Quote from: Chloe;13956
It might be worth taking one apart to see how the leaf and stem compare to these:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot3.htm
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot2.htm


hey, looking at those pics, the switches I have are *definitely* not white. They're totally gray in comparison. My guess is "there is another strongman" (as Yoda might put it on his deathbed).

I'll try taking one apart, tho I have to be super careful since I'm returning this one for an exchange...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline xsphat

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« Reply #93 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 20:35:58 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;13957
Wow.


I thought that too.

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« Reply #94 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 20:37:42 »
Quote from: wellington1869;13958
hey, looking at those pics, the switches I have are *definitely* not white. They're totally gray in comparison. My guess is "there is another strongman" (as Yoda might put it on his deathbed).

I'll try taking one apart, tho I have to be super careful since I'm returning this one for an exchange...

If you do, please take some macro photos!

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #95 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 21:20:48 »
Quote from: Chloe;13962
If you do, please take some macro photos!


I will :)

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using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #96 on: Sat, 06 December 2008, 21:31:58 »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #97 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 10:47:19 »
Quote from: Chloe;13968
How does the grey compare to the one in this thread?
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://forum.talkdigi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19


You /are/ the google-queen. ;) My grays look like the grays in the pics there... I'm about 99% sure...  

From what I understand from the pics and translation though, the grays ("easy axis") is supposed to click the same as the whites (the metal click leaf looks the same).

This much definitely appears to be true: "But the average is ALPS axis, with the same name, but have very different internal". Indeed.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #98 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 10:49:20 »
I'm still kind of liking these clickless alps... still torn about whether to exchange them or not. Its pretty much everything I liked about white alps (including tactile bump) without the loud pingy "snap" which might have been a noise issue for me anyway. So I guess I'll head out to J&R and compare with clicky whites and try to decide...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #99 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 10:50:08 »
I should be getting my NIB Dells with black Alps soon.  I wil let you know if they have the friction-enhanced switches like the older ones I bought several weeks ago.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #100 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:23:59 »
Quote from: itlnstln;14008
I should be getting my NIB Dells with black Alps soon.  I wil let you know if they have the friction-enhanced switches like the older ones I bought several weeks ago.


ya that will be interesting to know...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #101 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:28:29 »
ok, so I tried out the white alps (or clicky strongmans anyway) at J&R on the macally (come to think of it, I think its "matias") TP2.  On the one hand, the clicky whites did indeed have a click that my gray alps (as I'm referring to them now) on this smk85 dont have. But in every other way the whites felt like the grays (ie, in terms of tactility).  Also the overall noise wasnt much different cuz the click was so mild (the main noise is really the bottoming out snap and the rattle and resonances from the alps keycaps). So to be honest I didnt think they were as different as I thought they might be. The biggest difference is the click. Which I suppose is a big difference, but it was the only one I could see.

So do I exchange this board or not? I rather like it, but if I'm going to get white alps/strongmans, I should really just get white alps/strongmans. I mean I can always tamp down the noise if its too much (either by pulling out the metal leaf, or some good old 'lube). So I guess even though I actually dont mind this board as is, I'll exchange it just to make sure I dont have any regrets later on ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #102 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:32:21 »
Send it back, and get a Northgate with the real deal.

Just MHO.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #103 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:33:59 »
Quote from: itlnstln;14057
Send it back, and get a Northgate with the real deal.

Just MHO.


I thought about that... I was actually looking at those SIIG mini's with the white alps; but the price difference is considerable for me right now (this one is 40 shipped after the live.com rebate; even the siig mini is 85 with shipping).  I'll definitely try an evolution or the siig mini at some point though. For now I think the strongmans will do (so long as they click!)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #104 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:38:41 »
Also, look for the MK96.  It is an Apple layout (if that is an issue for you), but you can generally find them pretty cheap.  I think XsPhat got his for something like $10 (you have to buy an ADB -> USB adapter, too, but you would still come out ahead).  If anything, just buy the kb, and change out the switches with your SMK (once you figure it out).


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #105 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:42:37 »
Quote from: itlnstln;14059
Also, look for the MK96.  It is an Apple layout (if that is an issue for you), but you can generally find them pretty cheap.  I think XsPhat got his for something like $10 (you have to buy an ADB -> USB adapter, too, but you would still come out ahead).  If anything, just buy the kb, and change out the switches with your SMK (once you figure it out).


ya the only reason I avoided that was cuz of the apple layout and additional adapter -- however I didnt think about replaceing the switches - thats an interesting option (esp if I can get one for $10!).

By replacing the switches you mean pop off and swap just the tops/guts, right? (I could probably handle that ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #106 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 16:53:48 »
Is this an mk96? Strange that he describes it as "Quiet soft touch".

Its 10 bucks but shipping kinda kills it at $20... I suppose $30 total isnt bad, but then I could just put that 30 with this 40 and get the siig from the northgate repairs site and not have any additional work to do...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #107 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 18:26:41 »
well itln, you've gone and planted an idea in my head... I might buy an mk96 and swap out the switches... basically because I actually kind of like these switches too... I'd have a choice of switches at that point... and opening up the alps switch seems really easy to do, would be relatively painless...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline iMav

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« Reply #108 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 20:34:13 »
Even with the high shipping costs, I'd recommend the mk96 as long as you can live with the key layout.  That 'board feels great to type on.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #109 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 21:44:07 »
Quote from: iMav;14082
Even with the high shipping costs, I'd recommend the mk96 as long as you can live with the key layout.  That 'board feels great to type on.


does the mk96 have white alps for sure? (XS in his review describes them as "alps-ish"). Are they strongmans?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline iMav

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« Reply #110 on: Tue, 09 December 2008, 23:57:46 »
Quote from: wellington1869;14091
does the mk96 have white alps for sure? (XS in his review describes them as "alps-ish"). Are they strongmans?

I believe they are white Alps...the 'boards I had did not say "Alps" on them...but in comparison with other 'boards I have with white Alps, they feel and sound identical.

Offline xsphat

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« Reply #111 on: Wed, 10 December 2008, 00:24:51 »
Quote from: iMav;14100
I believe they are white Alps...the 'boards I had did not say "Alps" on them...but in comparison with other 'boards I have with white Alps, they feel and sound identical.

I did a side by side with my old Northgate and they felt the same, though one was twenty years old. Someone else said that some of the Alps switches have the name on the sides or even the bottom, so yes, they are real white Alps, even if they are not named in the correct spot.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #112 on: Wed, 10 December 2008, 01:55:45 »
bought one; so either I'll be swapping with smk85 switches, or there will be a mk96 for sale at geekhack soon. we'll find out when it comes :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #113 on: Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:05:47 »
The really nice thing about alps is, the switch is so accessible and easy to open, that it means its really easy for users to mix-n-match alps components and fine-tune the noise as well as feel to nearly anything they want.  I love that all the different alps switches appear to use interchangeable guts.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #114 on: Mon, 15 December 2008, 00:14:14 »
now I'm waiting for 3 boards... impatiently. I havent had a new board to try in a week and it feels weird ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #115 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 16:21:26 »
once again waiting proves to be the hardest part. Waiting on two kinds of alps switches. They're taking absolutely forever to get here. Whilte alps not due till 18th, black alps not due till 22nd. What the hell am I going to do in the meanwhile? Argh.
(oh yea, I suppose I could do some real work ;) )

Buying online is great (price and choice and information) but the waiting blows so incredibly badly.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #116 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 16:27:36 »
Hey, you could be like me, waiting on money so that I can even think about getting a Cherry blue board. :o

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #117 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 16:29:23 »
Quote from: webwit;15038
Have you called AS (Anonymous Switchoholics) for support?


Is the President the guy in your avatar?


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #118 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 16:41:01 »
OK, as long as he doesn't go outside in stormy weather (or at all).


Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #119 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 16:44:01 »
I get the impression that he probably has no desire to go outside at all, so that'd be a non-issue. :p

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #120 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 17:21:47 »
Quote from: webwit;15038
Have you called AS (Anonymous Switchoholics) for support?


thats why I joined geekhack :p We should come up with a 10 step program.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #121 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 17:23:01 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;15044
I get the impression that he probably has no desire to go outside at all, so that'd be a non-issue. :p


lol

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #122 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 17:28:36 »
Based on the AA 12 step program, according to Wikipedia:

1. We admitted we were powerless over keyswitches - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Switch greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of the Buckling Spring as we understood it.
4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of our keyboards.
5. Admitted to the Buckling Spring, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have the Buckling Spring remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked It to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had annoyed by testing clicky keyboards late at night, and did not become willing to make amends to them all, and instead to keep typing on Model Ms late at night.
9. Gave those people Model Ms, so they could annoy their friends and family as well, even when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory of our keyboard stashes and when we were in possession of a non-BS keyboard promptly admitted it, and threw out the offending keyboard.
11. Sought through eBay and Geekhack to improve our massive collection of Buckling Spring keyboards, praying only for those annoying snipers to not grab that M15 we were bidding on.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other switchaholics, and to practice these principles in all of our affairs.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #123 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 17:29:34 »
lol! I think that might work. Now I have to wear a cherry switch around my neck as a constant reminder of my commitment ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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lexmark vs ibm
« Reply #124 on: Tue, 16 December 2008, 19:25:46 »
well I did get something in the mail today tho nothing too exciting, its my replacement for my M board (tho I had been typing on the broken one whenever it felt like working for a while, so this wasnt all that novel to get the replacement ;).

The replacement is a '96 lexmark made (complete with blue logo) 1391401.  (the original one I got was a '91 gray logo ibm-made one). Both have 2-piece keys and detachable cables.

People always say the lexmark made ones sound different and I can confirm this: they do sound different, not that much but enough for me to notice. The older one ('91, gray logo, ibm) is quieter than the lexmark made one from '96. The lexmark one "pings" quite a bit more when you type. (I mean its not the pingiest board I've ever heard, I just mean in comparison to the ibm-made one).  Also the older '91 ibm one weighs noticaby more, is heavier. (tho they're both heavy compared to anything else).

The sound isnt very different, and I think i would have really only noticed having them side by side. And its not a bad sound, just different and higher toned. Having them side by side though I must say I prefer the older heavier ibm-made one. (update: I take that back, I dont know if I have preference here. They're both nice in their own ways).

The switch feel tho is nearly identical. I'd argue lexmark keys are just a touch stiffer, but that could be my imagination (or just that the ibm-one has been worn-in more). (update: trying the old one again now, its definitely a lighter touch, but again that might be a function of wear).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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silencing an endurapro
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 17 December 2008, 21:26:13 »
project: Doing a "silencing" project on an endurapro (kind of a mirror project to what itln is doing with the alps board). I'm going to be adding the following to this board in the coming few weeks:
--rubber washer around the plunger on the keys to reduce bottoming clack
--silicon grease on the plunger to reduce rattle
--silicon grease on the springs to reduce click and ping

What I'd like is additionally some way to reduce overall board resonance. Opened it up, didnt see any obvious way to do that. Also topping clack is still not addressed, but its not as loud as the other sources of noise. So the above three things might go a long way. If it works, it should really approximate black alps noise level (with a BS feel).

(p.s., I'm also considering rubber tubing around the spring instead of grease. Grease may 'migrate' downwards; however, rubber tubing may wear out within a few months. Might try both on the board and see which one lasts longer).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #126 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 05:54:15 »
You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.


Offline iMav

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« Reply #127 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 07:39:27 »
Quote from: itlnstln;15211
You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.

Well, the "quiet touch" Model M's use a rubber dome sheet.  The "buckling rubber sleeves" are in the M4 keyboards ("mighty mouse") and are entirely separate beasts.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #128 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 13:42:15 »
Quote from: itlnstln;15211
You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.


thats a really interesting idea. I was going to just use rubber tubing (1/8" diameter would work, lots on ebay for cheap).

If I wanted to try the buckling sleeves I'd have to pick up an M4 I guess. I'll keep an eye out.  Today I'm off to hardware store with a model M key  in my hand to look for a rubber washer that fits nicely around the plunger. If I find one I guess I'll buy 104 of them ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #129 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 13:51:53 »
Actually, IIRC, you need 110 for a 101-key board, because of some keys having multiple plungers for stabilization.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #130 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 13:54:12 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;15237
Actually, IIRC, you need 110 for a 101-key board, because of some keys having multiple plungers for stabilization.


good point! If I include some spares, I think I'll just get 120.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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got my white alps (mk96)
« Reply #131 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 14:43:12 »
ok, just got it. The fabled white alps. (its like spotting a unicorn or something).
It even came complete with the "free numpad" that they promised.
(so, does anyone want an unopened adb numpad? free if you want to pay shipping).

ok... opening the mk96 now... mainly I want to see how noisy they are and if resistance is any different from the gray alps...

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline zwmalone

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« Reply #132 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 14:55:47 »
Does the numpad have white ALPS?
Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline cchan

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« Reply #133 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:23:15 »
HP Envy17: Core i7-2760QM, 8GB DDR3, 128GB Crucial m4 + 750GB Hitachi, Windows 7 Home Premium x64, Cherry ML4100, Logitech M500, HP zr22w
IBM Thinkpad X60: Core Duo T2400, 2GB DDR2, 128GB Samsung 830, Xubuntu 12.04 x86, Cherry ML4100, Logitech M205, HP zr22w
Raspberry Pi Model B: BCM2835, 0.25GB DDR2, 8GB Samsung SD card, Raspbian Wheezy, human interaction devices as above

Offline bigpook

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« Reply #134 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:38:25 »
Quote from: Tales;15273
Hmm... Going back to the M silencing idea... This is something I might want to try. Would something like this rubber tubing work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Luminous-Glow-Rubber-Tubing-1-8-10-Cod-Squid-Jigs-G_W0QQitemZ270317449184QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270317449184&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


I would be curious how that rubber tubing would work out. Are you going to place it over the spring?
If so , I would think the rubber tubing would degrade and break apart over time. I could be wrong though.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline iMav

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« Reply #135 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:42:05 »
I'm pretty sure that if you place any sort of tubing around the spring, that it will not buckle properly.

Offline cchan

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« Reply #136 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:49:30 »
That's what I was thinking too. Wellington suggested placing rubber tubing over the springs in this post, and I was a little skeptical. But I'm willing to be a guinea pig if I get 3m of tubing for $7 shipped. If it doesn't work out on the M, I can always use it to suspend hard drives.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #137 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:49:53 »
Quote from: zwmalone;15251
Does the numpad have white ALPS?


good question, it doesnt say on the box, want me to open it up?

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Offline bigpook

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« Reply #138 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:50:29 »
Quote from: iMav;15275
I'm pretty sure that if you place any sort of tubing around the spring, that it will not buckle properly.


No doubt, but the key press would still register, no?
Don't know how wonky the key press would feel though.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #139 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:50:41 »
Quote from: Tales;15277
That's what I was thinking too. Wellington suggested placing rubber tubing over the springs in this post, and I was a little skeptical. But I'm willing to be a guinea pig if I get 3m of tubing for $7 shipped. If it doesn't work out on the M, I can always use it to suspend hard drives.


would love to hear your results. (I was just brainstorming - but a thin-walled tube may work (but then wear out quickly)).

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #140 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 18:52:54 »
Incidentally, I tried a rubber washer around the model M key's plunger today. Basically it didnt work cuz the washer was too thick (it was the smallest one the hardware store had). So basically the switch didnt move up and down on its whole range anymore. I'm not done with that idea though, I want to try the small rubberbands you get with your braces, those might be small enough to not impede the plunger movement.  (The idea here is that bottoming clack would be reduced or eliminated).

One place where those rubber washers worked perfectly though -- around my alps switch on my spacebar. I have an smk85 with gray alps and a gunshot spacebar. Wanted to tamp down that gunshot. Velcro on top of the keyswitch worked for a while, but thought I'd try the rubber washer instead. Worked perfectly, tamped down the spacebar gunshot perfectly. Basically I just stuck it on the underside of the spacebar where the little notch fits into the alps switch.

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Offline zwmalone

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« Reply #141 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:33:04 »
Quote from: wellington1869;15278
good question, it doesnt say on the box, want me to open it up?

Sure, go for it.  If I get my Filco I'd gladly take it off your hands :D
Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #142 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:36:36 »
Quote from: zwmalone;15289
Sure, go for it.  If I get my Filco I'd gladly take it off your hands :D


k, hold on... its cherries! clicky cherries. I thought they were white alps (based on click and feel), then I pulled a key, and its black-stemmed cherries.
(which is odd cuz the usual black cherry switch is clickless).  But they're clicky and quite delightful actually.

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Offline zwmalone

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« Reply #143 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:42:21 »
That's odd. I've never heard of clicky black MXs...
Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #144 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:43:37 »
Quote from: zwmalone;15292
That's odd. I've never heard of clicky black MXs...


me neither :D  By the way, here is a description and pics (this is the same one I got)

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #145 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:51:24 »
Quote from: wellington1869;15290
k, hold on... its cherries! clicky cherries. I thought they were white alps (based on click and feel), then I pulled a key, and its black-stemmed cherries.
(which is odd cuz the usual black cherry switch is clickless).  But they're clicky and quite delightful actually.


Do they have a tactile bump and the Cherry logo?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #146 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:54:59 »
hmmm, so in my whirlwind attempt to find the ideal 'board for the last few weeks, I'm not sure where I stand now. I'll have to take stock. At this point I've tried virtually every (affordable) switch that geekhackers most commonly talk about.  And what are my conclusions? I dont know! Hahahahahahaha (maniacal laughter as he loses his mind).

But seriously, I guess what I've accomplished (other than a great deal of procrastination and retail therapy), is that I've eliminated some switches from the running and narrowed down the field quite a bit.  I've also come to discover and know my own likes and dislikes (which I did not know before). I've also come to know and classify the main metrics and criteria that I'd look for in a board (which I didnt really know before either).

Basically for me its a case of "tuning" two things in particular: key resistance and noise.

-Cherries were neat but too light for me (or in the case of the clickless blacks, too stiff).
-BS are still my reference, but looks like they wont be my main board. I'd like something a little lighter (even though I switch to BS now and then when I want to really pound on the keys). So still looking for the main board.
-Alps (in particular, strongmans) seem to hit a broad sweetspot for me, particularly in terms of resistance being in between cherries and bs.
So what I'm left with now, I think, is tuning the strongman's noise. For this I'm collecting strongman boards now (grays, blacks, whites). Once I have them I'll decide between those (and maybe apply a mod or two if necessary to tune the noise further - dampers, interchangeable leafs, etc).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #147 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:55:29 »
Quote from: Chloe;15294
Do they have a tactile bump and the Cherry logo?


tactile bump: yup
cherry logo: where would it be located? I dont think i've ever seen a cherry logo on the switch itself...

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #148 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 19:59:15 »
If you take a keycap off it should be visible on the switch casing.

Offline zwmalone

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« Reply #149 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 20:14:10 »
It's at the top(front) of the switch:
Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #150 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 20:24:42 »
Quote from: Chloe;15297
If you take a keycap off it should be visible on the switch casing.


hmmm, i dont see anything on the switch casing (tho I also dont remember anything on my previous cherry board switch casings either, tho maybe I just didnt notice).

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Offline Chloe

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« Reply #151 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 20:29:24 »
Could you post a picture of the switch?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #152 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 20:37:34 »
Quote from: Chloe;15302
Could you post a picture of the switch?


sure, will do it tonite... here ya go:




"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #153 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 22:24:21 »
Quote from: zwmalone;15298
It's at the top(front) of the switch:


I dont think even my 18000 had the name stamped on its switches. I dont remember my black cherry smk88 having it either.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #154 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 22:25:27 »
Quote from: wellington1869;15295
hmmm, so in my whirlwind attempt to find the ideal 'board for the last few weeks, I'm not sure where I stand now. I'll have to take stock. At this point I've tried virtually every (affordable) switch that geekhackers most commonly talk about.  And what are my conclusions? I dont know! Hahahahahahaha (maniacal laughter as he loses his mind).

But seriously, I guess what I've accomplished (other than a great deal of procrastination and retail therapy), is that I've eliminated some switches from the running and narrowed down the field quite a bit.  I've also come to discover and know my own likes and dislikes (which I did not know before). I've also come to know and classify the main metrics and criteria that I'd look for in a board (which I didnt really know before either).

Basically for me its a case of "tuning" two things in particular: key resistance and noise.

-Cherries were neat but too light for me (or in the case of the clickless blacks, too stiff).
-BS are still my reference, but looks like they wont be my main board. I'd like something a little lighter (even though I switch to BS now and then when I want to really pound on the keys). So still looking for the main board.
-Alps (in particular, strongmans) seem to hit a broad sweetspot for me, particularly in terms of resistance being in between cherries and bs.
So what I'm left with now, I think, is tuning the strongman's noise. For this I'm collecting strongman boards now (grays, blacks, whites). Once I have them I'll decide between those (and maybe apply a mod or two if necessary to tune the noise further - dampers, interchangeable leafs, etc).



So far the gray strongmans is my fav board by far. I havent put it away for any length of time yet. With rubber washers under the spacebar and backspace key, its just about perfect.
Cant wait to compare it with the blacks (and strongman whites if I can manage to buy a board soon).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Chloe

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« Reply #155 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 22:44:43 »
Thanks for the pictures. :)

Quote from: wellington1869;15316
I dont think even my 18000 had the name stamped on its switches.


Do you mean the Compaq MX 11800? Both of mine have the Cherry logo on the switches.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #156 on: Thu, 18 December 2008, 23:06:32 »
Quote from: Chloe;15322
Thanks for the pictures. :)



Do you mean the Compaq MX 11800? Both of mine have the Cherry logo on the switches.


ya i meant 11800. I never noticed a logo, I opened it up often enough. Maybe I just never noticed.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #157 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 01:26:30 »
So I may be narrowing down my board options (finally).
basically I think i'll wind up with three boards, each approximating the three different designs I've liked so far (but "tuned" for noise level).
--One is a "topre substitute". This is going to be my smk with gray strongmans with sliders from an AEKII (with the rubber dampers).
--One is my TP2 substitute (until I get a real tp2 and harvest its white strongmans), which will be my AEKII white alps switches (now without dampers) installed into the dell at101w, with a piece of elec tape over the hammer to reduce the click a bit. Should be light and soft like the tp2 (approximately). (I might add dampers to this too).
--One is my endura pro (cushioned with rubber washer or o-rings to reduce clack, and greased springs to dampen the click). This basically should feel like a heavier version of the tp2 at that point.

So my three boards are basically: a quiet one, a light one, and a heavier one. :) Based around the three basic switches I liked, and modded to taste in terms of noise level.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #158 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 01:55:37 »
I think I could get down to two:
— The real Topre (accept no substitute, Wellington), my Realforce 86U of course.
— One space saver Alps style keyboard (Maybe a Filco but I'd have to try it's XM switches first). For now the Macally MK96 fits the bill, but I would like something with a standard layout like the Topre 86U.

Offline iMav

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« Reply #159 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:08:47 »
I could easily live with just my HHKB Pro (well, I'd need a few of them because I typically have a few computers up at once in separate locations that I use regularly (and wouldn't want to carry it back and forth)...

However, what fun would that be???  :)

I think it has been confirmed that the same switches are in the MK96 and the Filco white "Alps" 'board...so I'm guessing that 'board would be just fine for you xsphat.

Offline xsphat

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« Reply #160 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:21:50 »
Quote from: iMav;15482
I think it has been confirmed that the same switches are in the MK96 and the Filco white "Alps" 'board...so I'm guessing that 'board would be just fine for you xsphat.


Maybe I'll have a huge blowout on eBay this weekend and see if I can get together enough money.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #161 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:28:33 »
Quote from: xsphat;15481
— The real Topre (accept no substitute, Wellington), my Realforce 86U of course.

lol, soon as I have $250 or so to spare I'm definitely upgrading to an 86U.
Quote

— One space saver Alps style keyboard (Maybe a Filco but I'd have to try it's XM switches first). For now the Macally MK96 fits the bill, but I would like something with a standard layout like the Topre 86U.

did you see bigpooks pics of the XM switch on the Filco? its identical to the mk96 switch...  if you liked the mk96 you'd like the filco, it seems to me.

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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #162 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:38:25 »
Quote from: wellington1869;15485
did you see bigpooks pics of the XM switch on the Filco? its identical to the mk96 switch...  if you liked the mk96 you'd like the filco, it seems to me.


How could I miss those pictures — they are so big they can be seen from space!

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #163 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:55:17 »
Quote from: xsphat;15488
How could I miss those pictures — they are so big they can be seen from space!


lol! seriously, I actually have to wait for that page to load ;)

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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #164 on: Sat, 20 December 2008, 02:58:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;15492
lol! seriously, I actually have to wait for that page to load ;)


I know, so do I! lol

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #165 on: Sun, 21 December 2008, 17:11:00 »
dell black alps arriving tomorrow, yay.  My aek2 should be arriving a few days after that (its currently in MA, according to tracking info. thats not too far, about 5 hours away, lol).
Will have a grand old modding fest after those two arrive.

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Offline bigpook

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« Reply #166 on: Sun, 21 December 2008, 17:22:45 »
Quote from: xsphat;15496
I know, so do I! lol


Sorry, I will make them smaller next time : ) some of them are over 1M in size......
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #167 on: Sun, 21 December 2008, 17:27:40 »
Quote from: bigpook;15709
Sorry, I will make them smaller next time : ) some of them are over 1M in size......


bigP, here's an easy online image resizer utility: resizr. You can just provide it with the url of your image, and it will hand you a resized image file.

(When it asks you how you want to resize, just type "600" or "800" into the "width" section. It will automatically calculate the scaling for the other axis).

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #168 on: Mon, 22 December 2008, 14:53:50 »
Just got my dell black alps! Opening it now...  overly hasty first impressions to follow...

ok, first impressions:

-feel is very close to the gray alps (am opening up switches on both now to compare internals). Pleasant, throw seems just a little shorter than gray alps (not in a bad way). Spring resistance may be a touch harder (not in a bad way).

-these brand new black alps (vs the gritty old ones I had tried before) - sure, they're smoother and they dont "catch" if you hit them at an angle. However, I must say I can still feel friction on the downstroke. Not like the grit from before, but just feels like key switch friction. (maybe I should let the board come up to room temperature, it was just taken out the back of the ups truck after all).

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #169 on: Mon, 22 December 2008, 15:21:23 »
I think there will always be a little friction in the keys.  As you noted, it could be that the plastic needs to expand after coming up to room temp.  Enjoy (I know I do)!


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #170 on: Mon, 22 December 2008, 18:22:14 »
Quote from: itlnstln;15832
I think there will always be a little friction in the keys.  

ya, and I dont want to get too picky either. Pickiness can be an infinite regress.
Quote

As you noted, it could be that the plastic needs to expand after coming up to room temp.  Enjoy (I know I do)!

Funnily enough it did get smoother once it warmed up ;)

Overall I like them (certainly way better than the gritty mess we got before). I may prefer the grays still though. But I'm glad I have this. I may try stuffing the AEKII white alps with dampers into this board. :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #171 on: Fri, 26 December 2008, 00:23:09 »
ok, so I'm still steadily gravitating towards 3 (or 2) boards. I put the aekii sliders into the dell at101w and I like it a lot, this one will definitely be one of the 3.
Another one will be a 1391401. Even though I dont like the spacebar, and its key resistance is prolly too much as a daily board for me, its a great reference board and reminds me of why I like the others, lol. Also its still the board on which I type the fastest and most accurately, even tho I think the key resistance is too much for a daily board.
The third one will most probably be a board with white strongmans, whether thats a tp2 (that works, if i can find one) or the tp2's switches that i've installed into another board.  
(This means if I dont use the endurapro too much I may wind up selling it). Funnily that would leave me with two alps boards as my two daily boards - which is something I totally didnt expect when I began this search.

I dont know yet if the white strongman board (tp2) will overtake this silenced dell as my main board, we'll have to see. Also I may put the aekii dampers into the tp2 as well if they fit. I have enough of them left over since I'm only replacing the sliders on the alphabet keys.

What will I do once I have my three boards? the search would be sort of over! I guess I'd have to go back to doing real work, lol.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline xsphat

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« Reply #172 on: Fri, 26 December 2008, 00:27:56 »
Wellington, I really like the Model M. I get it out sometimes to remember it and I always find it fun to type on, but yeah, it's not daily 'board material. It's accurate but the white alps are fabu ...

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #173 on: Fri, 26 December 2008, 00:52:59 »
Quote from: xsphat;16185
but the white alps are fabu ...


yea, the M is good for that, an occasional reminder, a kind of 'reset tool' for the fingers, lol.

I'm loving the silenced alps. I dont think I'd like them half as much without those aekii dampers in them (for the noise), but with them installed I really like 'em.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #174 on: Fri, 26 December 2008, 15:54:32 »
funny, been using the endurapro more and more ever since I 'silenced' it. Its nice!
This is why I'll always need more than 1 board - cuz there's more than 1 great board out there. At least 3 great boards. :) That number sounds reasonable to me.  Maybe I'll look like less of a freak with only 3 boards rather than a dozen, lol.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #175 on: Fri, 26 December 2008, 19:56:27 »
Random funny story - So I was throwing out the garbage yesterday and lo and behold what do I see by the dumpster but 2 pretty good looking guitars, one acoustic and one electric. On a whim I looked them up on ebay and found these models selling for about $50 each. So hey, lets roll the dice, I put an ad out on craigslist each for $35. Wouldnt you know it, I was inundated with calls. So now I'm $70 richer, what a country.  
Of course the way I see it that unexpected income paid for at least 2 of my keyboards, lol. ;)

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #176 on: Mon, 05 January 2009, 23:56:00 »
So my new year has begun with a much simplified technological arsenal for my writing needs. Sold off nearly all the keyboards I had tried, left with just the ones that I like a lot. The quieted-endurapro is so much better than the kensington c73 I was using. I havent even used the dell black alps (tho I'm glad to have it around). A tp2 would complete my keyboard collection for now. At some point in the future I want to continue resonance-killing experiments on the endurapro (especially filling the inside of the keyboard case with home insulating spray foam, lol. It comes in little spray cans, I'd love to try it out as a resonance killer on boards). But all that can wait till my dissertation is done I guess ;)

Another experiment in simplification is my return to paper and pen for a lot of outlining work (rather than doing them on the laptop) and my new use of the alphasmart dana for first drafts of chapters or sections (simple distraction-free writing). The dana forces you to compose and organize starting with the very first pass on the material. It can be a real time-saver because other wise I tend to accumulate data and defer organizing it into narrative until much later (when I'm generally overwhelmed by the data). Doing it with the dana one is forced to keep narrating what one has found and the revision process therefore starts much earlier (and thats good, productive).

Dont know how long these simplifications will last but for now its definitely boosted my productivity all around and makes the writing process a lot more hands-on, mechanical, and more fun, more tangible and physical. Which I think I was really yearning for.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3