Guns

[patrickgeekhack]

Since there are many people from the US on this forum, I would like to know how many of you have guns. I'm a big fan of guns although I don't own any. I have had a chance to shoot a rifle/shotgun/pistol once (each time) and it was very cool. I don't like hunting just target shooting. I was on the point of applying for my license when I learned that my wife was pregnant. I dropped this idea since I don't want to have a gun an a growing child in the same house.

[msiegel]

i don't, but the idea of having big chunks of lead around the house (even old solder) -- that stuff has to be kept well away from kids

[patrickgeekhack]

i don't, but the idea of having big chunks of lead around the house (even old solder) -- that stuff has to be kept well away from kids

True. There are so many things to keep away from kids including bleach and medecine.

[msiegel]

True. There are so many things to keep away from kids including bleach and medecine.

kids have that innate need to put everything in their mouths it served better when we lived in the forest and they could safely eat dirt without anyone worrying about modern chemicals...

[timw4mail]

You are not a true American. Are you a communist, a terrorist, or a liberal?

I'm a moderate and I do not approve this message.

[TWX]

Well, if I had any guns, I certainly wouldn't be posting about them on the Internet...

[o2dazone]

You must think Americans all walk around packing heat!  I don't but if you want to get it out of your system Las Vegas has plenty of firing ranges where you basically "Rent A Bazooka" and get it out of your system.

It's true. And if you put down enough bills, you can fire live rounds and real people!

[kode]

The most dangerous game...

Well, I'm not an american but I do have firearms for hunting. 2 shotguns I don't really use (I might get rid of the cylinder repeating one and get an over/under one instead, and try and do some clay shooting sometime), a "swedish mauser" (model 96) in 6.5x55 and a Husqvarna 1640 in 8x57. I don't ever get enough practice with them, though. I'd love to have the time and money to be really good at hitting where I'm aiming.

[patrickgeekhack]

You must think Americans all walk around packing heat!  I don't but if you want to get it out of your system Las Vegas has plenty of firing ranges where you basically "Rent A Bazooka" and get it out of your system.

I did not say that. I just know that the American constitution allows for gun possession. I may be wrong, but I don't know the American constitution that well. I heard about the shooting ranges in Las Vegas. Never been South of the border though. We might head down next year after my baby has grown up a bit. We have a relative in Atlanta. In fact, my wife was supposed to go there this month, but because of the H1N1 threat being greater for my baby, we decided to postpone the trip. If she was going there, I would have had my Topre delivered there and not pay taxes like when it was delivered.

[patrickgeekhack]

Well, if I had any guns, I certainly wouldn't be posting about them on the Internet...

I'm pretty sure there must a forum talking about guns just like there's one talking about keyboards :-)

[AndrewZorn]

I just know that the American constitution allows for gun possession.

we americans need more people like you

[patrickgeekhack]

we americans need more people like you

Don't take what I said out of context LOL. I also said " may be wrong, but I don't know the American constitution that well."

[patrickgeekhack]

From MacRumors forum:

Incident 1
I was followed into the parking lot once when leaving a Best Buy with a camcorder. Since I had been at the firing range before stopping at Best Buy, I was wearing a holster with a 45 in it ( I have a concealed carry permit.) When I realized I was being "cased" I pulled off my jacket so the individual could see my pistol. I glanced over my shoulder while getting in and noticed he was beating a hasty retreat! I hate to think I need to carry a weapon when I go shopping, but that is the way it is in some places. I guess I will take a pistol when I go pick up my wife's new MBP this weekend.

Incident 2
Just carry a concealed firearm or go with someone that does. I always go out with a concealed Glock Model #27 .40 (installed with Laser-Max Laser). I had some nut follow my wife and I to our vehicle around X-Mas '07, he told me to give him my bags or he was going to "make me bleed", I turned around and he had a red laser-dot illuminating his head. He said he was "joking" and thought I was his "friend" (OK!), he turned and ran back through the parking lot. In this day and age with the economy and people quite desperate you can't take chances.

Now, once again don't take me out of context. I just found these comments funny that's all :-)

[patrickgeekhack]

The most dangerous game...

Well, I'm not an american but I do have firearms for hunting. 2 shotguns I don't really use (I might get rid of the cylinder repeating one and get an over/under one instead, and try and do some clay shooting sometime), a "swedish mauser" (model 96) in 6.5x55 and a Husqvarna 1640 in 8x57. I don't ever get enough practice with them, though. I'd love to have the time and money to be really good at hitting where I'm aiming.

The first time I fire a centre fire rifle, the instructor gave me a demo. I then blew my first shot. My second shot was one millimetre away from his. Not knowing this, he was making fun of me in front of everyone else only for me to make fun of him after :-) I admit that it's not easy to become good at hitting targets without a lot of practice. It may look easy to hold a rifle and to fire, but in practice it's not that easy if one does not have much practice.

[ch_123]

I hate to think I need to carry a weapon when I go shopping, but that is the way it is in some places.

Find a better place to shop. Case closed.

[Rajagra]

Find a better place to shop. Case closed.

Like Canada? :-)

[patrickgeekhack]

Like Canada? :-)

I'm in no mood to be messed with today. My favourite team in England lost today (hint: balloon). Be thankful I don't own a gun :-)

[TWX]

Okay some context...

I live east of Phoenix.  I see regular people open-carrying maybe twice a year, exempting employees of pawn shops which stock firearms.  Obviously pretty much every uniformed cop is open-carrying, and a couple of times I've seen plainclothes cops with badges on lanyards open-carrying too.

Obviously I do not know if people are carrying concealed, but if lots of people are they're not carrying in a particularly accessible location.  The weather is too hot here for sport coats most of the time.

I've spoken with a couple of police officers who've discussed times when they were radioed to go speak to someone who was open-carrying.  Both officers said that they pulled up, talked to the individual who was reported, concluded that there was no problem, and drove off satisfied.  One of the officers said that it seems like most of the people who call to report someone open-carrying don't know that it's legal in Arizona, like they moved here from back east.

The chances of you on a visit seeing someone not involved in law enforcement carrying a gun is pretty small, at least here.  On visits to other cities (LA, San Francisco, Boston, Honolulu, San Diego, Tucson)  I've never seen anyone open-carry either.  I can't speak about Atlanta specifically, because I'm limited to their oh-so-lovely airport...

[TWX]

I'm in no mood to be messed with today. ...  Be thankful I don't own a gun :-)

I never joke that way personally, because I take firearms ownership and the right for private ownership to be legal and only lightly regulated very seriously.  On top of that, I know a guy who was fired from his job because in a fit of frustration he commented something to the effect of, "It's a good thing I don't have my gun."  No charges, police probably weren't even called, but he walked out later that day.

[patrickgeekhack]

I never joke that way personally, because I take firearms ownership and the right for private ownership to be legal and only lightly regulated very seriously.  On top of that, I know a guy who was fired from his job because in a fit of frustration he commented something to the effect of, "It's a good thing I don't have my gun."  No charges, police probably weren't even called, but he walked out later that day.

You're right. I should have thought twice before joking about this. I should have known better for when I have had a gun in my hand, I've always pointed it down respecting the rule "Never point to anything you don't intend to shoot."

I was just thinking that Rajagra would have a greater chance knowing what I was trying to say. I wanted to joke so badly that I forgot I was talking about firearms.

My apologies.

[itlnstln]

I'm from Texas.
 
I'm preparing for the Great War of Texan Independence in 2010.  Yee Haw, motherfu*kers
 
 
 
 
I am a liberal.  I don't have any guns.   I hate our conceal/carry law.  Hunting's cool, though.  If Texas tries to seceed, I am packing my ****, and heading to Europe.

[MsKeyboard]

This event was "attended" over the weekend.  Held twice a year, deep in the desert of Arizona.  No way to really describe the experience.

Hope the link works!

>

[MsKeyboard]

Sorry, we'll try this

[youtube[/youtube]

[patrickgeekhack]

This event was "attended" over the weekend.  Held twice a year, deep in the desert of Arizona.  No way to really describe the experience.

Hope the link works!

All I can say is wow!

[MsKeyboard]

R. Lee Emery does a show on History Channel called "Mail Call" where he goes out and shows off vintage and new military weapons.  He did a show at this location two weeks ago, and films several throughout the year here.  This shoot is mostly fans of vintage machine guns and such, but a extremely respectful and friendly group, or so I'm told

[pfink]

R. Lee Emery does a show on History Channel called "Mail Call" where he goes out and shows off vintage and new military weapons.  He did a show at this location two weeks ago, and films several throughout the year here.  This shoot is mostly fans of vintage machine guns and such, but a extremely respectful and friendly group, or so I'm told

I don't think "Mail Call" is still being produced. R. Lee Ermey's current show on History Channel is called "Lock 'N' Load".

[MsKeyboard]

I like the beer stein, great weapon and peace negotiator!

Later.....

[quadibloc]

You must think Americans all walk around packing heat!

Naturally, foreigners might get that idea, since the United States is, these days, about the only developed nation in which private citizens could possibly have most kinds of firearms.

In Canada, not only is it normally not possible for an ordinary private citizen to obtain a permit for a handgun, but we are planning to set up a national registry even for the rifles and shotguns which farmers own, let alone urban residents who go out to the countryside to hunt.

In Switzerland, it is true the citizens have guns - but they must account for their use, and it is not legal to use them against burglars and the like; they are, in effect, emergency equipment for use in national defence.

Most countries have gun restrictions stricter than those in Canada.

What many foreigners don't realize is that even in the U.S., despite the Second Amendment, many cities and states restrict gun ownership and use. Thus, one state had the slogan "use a gun, go to jail" - because they had enacted a statute with no exceptions, so that a woman could not even legally use a gun in defence of her honor.

I find this incomprehensible and inhumane; preventing a rape from being committed should simply take precedence over all other laws, the same way as preventing a repeition of the events of September 11, 2001. At least in the proximate case. Rounding up innocent people who "might" be terorrists is, of course, the wrong thing to do.

There are those who feel, of course, that Guantanamo comes uncomfortably close to that. The reason that the "you have the right to remain silent" is called a Miranda warning is because Miranda is the surname of a rapist turned loose by the courts because the police didn't warn him of his rights. So it's hard for me to condemn Bush or others out of hand for not trusting the court system to turn a terrorist loose, condemning thousands of innocent people to death, because of a technicality. It's not as if things almost as bad haven't already happened.

[quadibloc]

Now, once again don't take me out of context. I just found these comments funny that's all :-)

It's certainly unusual that such things happen with any frequency. But it's a pity in both cases that the people frightened off weren't instead taken into police custody, convicted, and then fully rehabilitated in some fashion so as to eliminate the possiblity that they would make nuisances of themselves to an unarmed citizen.

[MsKeyboard]

I have a friend who is a police officer in a fairly popular vacation destination.  He is always asked to pose with people because they want a picture with someone openly carrying a firearm in public, not something they are used to seeing in their own area.

I grew up in a hunting family, and never really understood that gun ownership or the right to carry one was something not universally recognized.  Though I can say that being in a state that allows openly carrying a firearm does not automatically mean you will see one on a regular basis, but when you do it really is not that big of a deal.

Just remember to leave them home before you go crossing borders, north or south!

[InSanCen]

Aha.. guns. A fairly controversial subject in the UK. Me and the missus will likely never agree.

When I lived in the states, I owned a few (I still technically do, they are at my Mum's place, apart from the S-16 I imported a while back). I hunted (for Venison, not sport), and was educated in their proper use.

My missus however, grew up a few miles from Dunblane (non-uk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre ). To her (less so these days, but still), all guns are bad, military being the exception.

I have tried to reason with her that a gun on it's own does no damage, it needs an idiot behind it to do damage. I suspect she will tolerate at best. I doubt we will ever move to the states with common gun ownership being the prime reason.

As an aside, the guns I owned were a custom made 30.06 (more accurate than me, not that much range though. Great for use in Hides), Logun S-16 (Okay, more of an air rifle, and is now in this country with me after acquireing my FAC, and is my baby), and an old unknown remington over and under.

[MsKeyboard]

Around here we have saying, "an armed society is a polite society".

[InSanCen]

I agree... I think.

I grew up around guns (My Grandfather was a gamekeeper, and taught me to shoot). I learned about and shot a larger variety of weapons when I was in the US (Including a minigun at knob creek, short, expensive, but made my 15yr old day).

I think the UK's approach to guns (Ban pretty much everything) is too restrictive, as your average idiot/criminal is not goign to be affected by legislation in any way other than the supply is smaller (Though Re-Activated guns are fairly common in places). I also think the US's approach (I know some states are different, this is more of a generalisation), of "wait a few day" is too lax.

I think that a screening of some sort, other than criminal record checks, and also education are a necessary evil (The Education is not evil, but common sense IMHO). Some people, though not intentionally murderous/criminal, should not be allowed to handle weapons of any sort, leta lone the kind it takes relatively little skill to use fatally. Some people are just plain stupid.

Considering most of my Firearm education was at a pretty young age, I'm surprised how mature I was about Firearms considering my lack of regard to almost anything else at that age (I was the poster child for ADHD). I am also surprised how much I retained when it came to apply for my FAC (Firearms Certificate, required for *any* gun ownership in the UK) over here. The Examiner was quite impressed, and also loved the S-16 (Having never shot one before) to the point he bought a second-hand one a few months later.

tl;dr
Guns are great, but care needs to be taken about who get's to use them.

[MsKeyboard]

As with most everything in life, all things in moderation, and a health dose of respect goes a long way.

[ehird]

The most dangerous game...

More seriously,

Around here we have saying, "an armed society is a polite society".

Can a society that needs the ever-present background threat of violence to be outwardly civil truly be called polite? I mean, granted, it may well result in a polite society in the simplest sense, but is it a good society?

Besides, in the situations it'd matter, I'd wager that a lot of the time, ignorance of the meaning of the words "mutual assured destruction" would come into play.

[patrickgeekhack]

It's certainly unusual that such things happen with any frequency. But it's a pity in both cases that the people frightened off weren't instead taken into police custody, convicted, and then fully rehabilitated in some fashion so as to eliminate the possiblity that they would make nuisances of themselves to an unarmed citizen.

True. Who knows? Maybe they found other victims later in the same day. Just guessing though.

[AndrewZorn]

imagine a society with no guns, at all... wow how nice for everyone to be equal

...but that cant happen, since the bad guys will get them

so, how do you make it equal again?

yes, it is unfortunate.  but gun laws only stop abiding citizens from being at the same level as the threat.
no matter how much people hate nukes, we will stock them, because of other countries' capability to have them.
i dont see how anyone can see how gun laws are any different.

[patrickgeekhack]

Guns are great, but care needs to be taken about who get's to use them.

I think so too. I've always shown great respect whenever I have had one in my hands. I think how one approaches gun possession is very important. That being said, I'm also honest with myself in knowing that anger can be deadly.

As long as I'm not confident I will be able safely/securely store my guns without my child getting access to them I won't get a gun.

[patrickgeekhack]

imagine a society with no guns, at all... wow how nice for everyone to be equal

...but that cant happen, since the bad guys will get them

so, how do you make it equal again?

yes, it is unfortunate.  but gun laws only stop abiding citizens from being at the same level as the threat.
no matter how much people hate nukes, we will stock them, because of other countries' capability to have them.
i dont see how anyone can see how gun laws are any different.

This reminds me: door locks are for honest people :-) Seriously, you can easily get into most houses in Canada. All you have to do is break the glass, and unlock the dead bolt.

[ch_123]

imagine a society with no guns, at all... wow how nice for everyone to be equal

...but that cant happen, since the bad guys will get them

so, how do you make it equal again?

By making it as hard as possible for people to get guns? Works well where I live.

yes, it is unfortunate.  but gun laws only stop abiding citizens from being at the same level as the threat.

If what you are saying is true, there would be a direct proportionality between the strictness of gun laws, and the amount of gun crime being perpetrated on innocent people. The truth is that it's more like the other way around.

[quadibloc]

If what you are saying is true, there would be a direct proportionality between the strictness of gun laws, and the amount of gun crime being perpetrated on innocent people. The truth is that it's more like the other way around.

Cause and effect need to be considered here.

In Canada, we have a large border with the United States, and we depend on the openness of that border for a large proportion of our export trade. So we won't be legalizing marijuana here before the Americans do. (Also, the people of the First Nations have special border-crossing privileges, and, indeed, some reserves straddle the border; this has led to armed gangs engaging in things like cigarette smuggling.)

But this also means that our strict gun laws are particularly ineffective in keeping guns out of the hands of real criminals. This doesn't mean that they're completely without benefit in reducing crime. One of their most dramatic benefits is in reducing the survival rate of police officers answering domestic violence complaints.

Those kinds of crime which depend on law-abiding citizens being helpless, like home invasions and carjackings, are indeed more likely in a generally unarmed society where criminals still can, and do, get guns relatively easily.

During the last round of gun-control legislation in Canada, one measure was thrown out as unconstitutional that would have made it much harder even for criminals to have guns - giving the police broad powers to search for illegal guns without a warrant.

Since the United Kingdom is an island, and Continental Europe is pretty much all agreed on the merits of strict gun control, it is easier for them to set their own policy effectively.

But the real variables which control how much crime a society suffers have to do with the opportunity people have to earn a decent living through honest work. When the economy is properly managed, and unemployment is low, crime is less prevalent, and the public, being more content, is willing to accept addressing such crime as remains through enlightened rehabilitative measures.

When there are economic problems, however, naturally people are against wasting scarce resources on criminals.

If you don't want people to be bitter, angry, and vengeful in temperament, ensure that they are contented. This is not rocket science, so I can only conclude that genuine material scarcities of some sort are limiting our governments' abilities to produce a correctly functioning economy.

[patrickgeekhack]

When the economy is properly managed, and unemployment is low, crime is less prevalent, and the public, being more content, is willing to accept addressing such crime as remains through enlightened rehabilitative measures.

True. Having more opportunities to earn a decent living does make crime less prevalent. It will not get rid of crime, but will lower it. During tough economic times, there are some who will prosper and some who not only will not prosper, but will be going down more and more. The gap between the two will cause envy and crime. Of course, there will always be some who regardless of the economic situation will prefer easy money.

[TWX]

Disclaimer: I do not advocate revolt now in any way, shape, or form, and I also have never seen a need for revolt in my lifetime thus far.

One of the reasons the second amendment is there is to prevent a government from being tyrannical.  In that school of thought, private ownership of everything available to the military could be legal.  Now, I do not advocate for the wide-spread private ownership of rocket launchers, howitzers, tanks, mortars, and other incendiary/explosive weapons, but I do not generally have a problem with other military weapons in private hands, so long as those private owners obey the following:

• when the weapon isn't in your direct control on delegated to the direct control of a trusted individual it is stored secure against theft or accidental use.
• Do not point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy outright.
• Treat all firearms as if they are loaded
• Do not introduce a firearm into a situation unless you are willing to kill.
• Do not escalate a situation to where it requires a firearm.
• Know the operation of your firearm and be competent with it.

If those who own firearms would follow those rules then there really wouldn't be any problems.  The problem is that so many people seem unwilling to follow these simple guidelines, making firearms ownership problematic.

[quadibloc]

One of the reasons the second amendment is there is to prevent a government from being tyrannical.

And it's a reasonable one. The Nazi regime in Germany instituted gun control first, before they went to round up the Jews.

In Canada, we have a problem called "patronage". This is when a political party spends government money in ridings (constituencies, districts) that are most likely to be persuaded to continue electing members of that party in response to this.

This is due to our Parliamentary system of government: the Prime Minister, head of our nation's government, becomes so by virtue of being what you would call the House majority leader.

Members of parties serve in committees at the pleasure of their leaders, and the role of committees is purely advisory; they do work, they do not wield power.

Thus, if government money is spent in one part of the country, the people in the other parts of the country have a remedy: they can vote that government out of office.

In the American system, checks and balances make it more difficult for a President to turn the country into a dictatorship. While Senators and Representatives belong to the same parties as candidates for President, a President does not stop being President due to a non-confidence vote in the House of Representatives, nor does the President wield direct authority over the Senators and Representatives of his party.

Committees may delay legislation indefinitely or amend it, and committee membership derives from seniority.

So you Americans have the problem of "pork-barrel politics", where the person responsible for directing an excess of government funds to one district can only be voted out by the people who live in that district.

This, along with the problems caused in some environments by widespread gun ownership (it works just fine in rural areas, but in crowded, anonymous cities, in balance it usually does not reduce crime) are part of the price Americans pay to ensure some politician does not turn your country into a dictatorship.

Given the immense military power of the U.S., I tend to think that even if our system is usually more efficient, producing smoother results in the short term, this is a price worth paying for the sake of the world as a whole.

However, I don't see why you Americans need to continue denying yourselves universal health care.

[Rajagra]

imagine a society with no guns, at all... wow how nice for everyone to be equal

I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather be shot than stabbed to be honest. Knives can do some pretty nasty stuff. And knives don't run out of ammo.

However, I don't see why you Americans need to continue denying yourselves universal health care.

I've always thought Michael Moore was a bit of an ahole, but I saw his film Sicko recently. When he gathered those 9/11 heroes who couldn't get health treatment and pointed out what great health care the residents of Guantanamo Bay get, and then took the 9/11 heroes to Cuba where they got treatment on the spot and could buy the drugs they needed for under a dollar (when they cost hundreds of dollars back in the US) ... I have to admit I had a tear welling up in my eye.

[ch_123]

Since the United Kingdom is an island, and Continental Europe is pretty much all agreed on the merits of strict gun control, it is easier for them to set their own policy effectively.

You do realize that Ireland has been independent of the United Kingdom since 1921, right?

[quadibloc]

You do realize that Ireland has been independent of the United Kingdom since 1921, right?

What would falsify the United Kingdom being an island is that Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom. Before 1921, it was two islands. If one wishes to oversimplify, of course.

[roaduck]

I last handled a real gun when I was fifteen in my friend's dad's back garden.It was a big place near the airport in the countryside of Cheshire and I had a go at shooting paintcans with a purdey double-barrelled shotgun and a high velocity sniper rifle - don't know what the make was or the bore but it was quite an experience and I felt more grown up at the time because they trusted me with a weapon.

Also we had a farm in Wales and a friend of my mum's left me shoot another powerfull rifle - I was only about eight but I was already tall at over five foot so I was allowed to "have a go" but not without expert and explicit instruction first.

Years later in Manchester I saw a lot of guns - UZI's, Kalashnikovs, Sig Sauers, Glocks, Brownings, automatic machine pistols - the lot brand new in cardboard boxes in greasproof paper being openly sold in pubs.It's easier to get a gun here than in London - it's mad because of the gang culture and prevalence of drug dealers - it's sad and it is one aspect of my city that I am not proud of at all.

After Dunblane gun control went over the top here I think.

I've got a friend from Mesa, Arizona and she's alone because her ex is in Livermore in CA and she doesn't feel safe because there is a lot of gun-heads near her and she's in an isolated surburb living in a big house on the outskirts of the desert more or less.

[ch_123]

What would falsify the United Kingdom being an island is that Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom. Before 1921, it was two islands. If one wishes to oversimplify, of course.

And there's no shortage of guns in Northern Ireland, but that's a story for another day...

[TWX]

I've got a friend from Mesa, Arizona and she's alone because her ex is in Livermore in CA and she doesn't feel safe because there is a lot of gun-heads near her and she's in an isolated surburb living in a big house on the outskirts of the desert more or less.

I have lived and worked in Mesa over the years, and I lived in a terrible part of town when I called that city home.  I honestly didn't fear for guns nearly as much as I did for those with knives or improvised weapons, and then I was more worried about the meth heads than anyone else.