Author Topic: SS Ikari broke again. Which mouse should I get now? (Read 27984 times)

fuzzybyte · « **on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 11:41:17 »

My steelseries ikari laser mouse broke again. The middle button actuates twice sometime very randomly. I think it is time to buy a new mouse.

Could you recommend me some new (ikari like) mouse to buy?
I have a quite big hand so none of those laptop like mice, please.
Or should I just buy a third ikari?

squarebox · « **Reply #1 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:15:41 »

IMO, Steelseries quality and durability is worst than Razer.

Maybe you can try the Mionix Naos 5000.
Basicly the same shape as the ikari but with much more and better features...
I'm still trying to get my hands on one.
Availability of such brands in Singapore is nil.

Other options:
- G500
- G700
- Deathadder

Scarzy · « **Reply #2 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:30:39 »

I'd say 518, or g500

microsoft windows · « **Reply #3 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:39:47 »

Looking for a mouse that won't break? Try an old Microsoft Intellimouse from the 90's. They got the two buttons and a scroll wheel, and they last forever.

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #4 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 13:47:54 »

I considered buying G500 first as I liked the old G5,
but the thumb buttons look crowded and small as it has a third "middle" button.
Also, at least one review said that the scroll wheel wasn't great.

I've tried Razer Copperhead and mamba before.
Copperhead was OK, but the symmetrical design made the right side buttons unreachable.
Mamba broke after few hours of use and was jumping like crazy anyway.

Mionix Naos 5000 costs about 80 EUR here

vicariouscheese · « **Reply #5 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 13:51:15 »

if you like the ikari shape, the most similar are ms3.0, mx518, g500, deathadder

the mionix looks good, but i have never seen or heard of anyone using it.

squarebox · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 07 December 2010, 21:37:29 »

I cant believe I almost forgot about the Microsoft X5.
Big, wide, plam grip and very cheap.
Cost SGD$45 @ retail stores in Singapore which about $27 EUR.
It's USD$35 on amazon and newegg.

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 12:49:30 »

Has anyone tried the QPad 5K mouse?
It is very similar to Ikari laser, around 65 EUR.

Mazora · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 13:54:11 »

Ive been using extensively the MX 500 but wanted new mouse (for home and gaming, I now use the MX at the office). I always took care of my gears.

I've been using the SS Xai with the 9HD mousepad : its awesome. Highly recommended.

The mouse seem very robust and I dont see it breaking any time soon; but again, I take good care of my stuff, im not rough with it.

CodeChef · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 13:55:10 »

Quote from: squarebox;259268

I cant believe I almost forgot about the Microsoft X5.
Big, wide, plam grip and very cheap.
Cost SGD$45 @ retail stores in Singapore which about $27 EUR.
It's USD$35 on amazon and newegg.

It's total **** though. Not comfortable AT ALL. Trust me, I've tried it, I have big hands too. It's not as big as you would think.

OP, I would go with a MS IE3.0 or the Death Adder. If you like the shape of a G5 the MX518 is the exact same, its got the old-style wheel and buttons that you like, but I think you'll miss the dry grippy surface on the top part of the mouse that you had on the G5.

turbocharged · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 14:12:09 »

I've also been looking Mionix Naos 5000, but the lack of user reviews is scaring me a little. It looks perfect though.

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 15:21:37 »

I'm trying to decide between yet another Ikari laser, Qpad 5K and Mionix Naos 5000.

Ikari definitely has durability issues as I have 2 of them broke during 2 years.
Also, it has lower DPI value of 3200 compared to over five thousand or whatever on the other mice.

5K and Naos look almost exact copies of Ikari.

5K has slightly larger rest area for ring finger and pinky. Also, it has 2 DPI switch buttons even tough there can only be 2 DPI settings just like in Ikari. I don't see why they couldn't just have only one button like in Ikari.

Naos has lots of useless bells and whistles, pointless weight addon thingy which just adds more weight and very high price.

ch_123 · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 15:27:53 »

What about the Xai? Or is that too expensive?

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 08 December 2010, 15:39:04 »

Quote from: ch_123;259748

What about the Xai? Or is that too expensive?

I doubt I could live with that ambidextrous design.
I had a ambidextrous Razer once and oh boy was it joy and glory when I got a Ikari on my hand.

Bullveyr · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 09 December 2010, 02:00:16 »

Quote from: fuzzybyte;259746

Ikari definitely has durability issues as I have 2 of them broke during 2 years.

Did you consider fixing it by either fixing the switch or be simply swap the defective switch (if it is the switch and not the stem which presses on the switch)?

Quote

Also, it has lower DPI value of 3200 compared to over five thousand or whatever on the other mice.

Do you need more CPI, in most cases there is zero benfit in real life from more than 3000 CPI.

Quote

5K has slightly larger rest area for ring finger and pinky. Also, it has 2 DPI switch buttons even tough there can only be 2 DPI settings just like in Ikari. I don't see why they couldn't just have only one button like in Ikari.

Because they are stupid, not the only one with such a stupid CPI Switching Mechanism.

From what I have heard it's a decent mouse overall but nothing special and it has imho a too high price tag

Quote

Naos has lots of useless bells and whistles, pointless weight addon thingy which just adds more weight and very high price.

If you can life with 1600 CPI you could take a look at the Naos3200

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 09 December 2010, 06:03:29 »

Quote from: Bullveyr;259989

Did you consider fixing it by either fixing the switch or be simply swap the defective switch (if it is the switch and not the stem which presses on the switch)?

I have not tried to fix it. Also, the first ikari broke due to broken cable, not broken switch.

Sadly, opening this thing requires me to peel off the teflon gliders from the bottom.

tonyklo · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 09 December 2010, 06:30:01 »

Try ZOWIE EC-1 or 2.
I have a thread opened up right below ; )

Bullveyr · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 00:07:19 »

Quote from: fuzzybyte;260050

I have not tried to fix it. Also, the first ikari broke due to broken cable, not broken switch.

Sadly, opening this thing requires me to peel off the teflon gliders from the bottom.

It's broke, not much to hurt here.

Did you get a refund for your old Ikari or do you still have it to switch the cable with the one with the broken switch?

I still have 2 fresh sets of glides for the Ikari.

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #18 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 09:10:14 »

Quote from: Bullveyr;260489

It's broke, not much to hurt here.
Did you get a refund for your old Ikari or do you still have it to switch the cable with the one with the broken switch?

No, I don't have the old mouse anymore.

Steelseries really should come up with an upgraded version of Ikari.

sunsmells · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 09:43:38 »

I've been surfing geekhack for a while now but I just registered now that I have something to contribute. I bought the Naos 5000 about a month and a half ago and couldn't be happier. I think the weights are a little unnecessary but besides that it's perfect. check my review @ http://www.amazon.com/Mionix-Naos-Laser-Gaming-Mouse-Pc/dp/B003YJFV94/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1292002068&sr=1-1
Note: it's a little lower profile than the pictures may lead you to believe, possibly making wrist wrests awkward.

hopefully this helps

turbocharged · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 11:01:56 »

Nice review...I think I am sold...comfort is my #1 priority at this point after my pain inducing G9x.

sunsmells · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 12:34:59 »

yeah not a problem, glad it helped someone. My roommate traded in his G9X for an Xai, then traded that in for a G500, and thinks the Naos feels the best out of all of them too.
How much did you pick up your TG3 BL82 for? (also thinking about a deck)

turbocharged · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 12:57:50 »

Quote from: sunsmells;260790

yeah not a problem, glad it helped someone. My roommate traded in his G9X for an Xai, then traded that in for a G500, and thinks the Naos feels the best out of all of them too.
How much did you pick up your TG3 BL82 for? (also thinking about a deck)

Got it on ebay a couple of weeks ago for $30 shipped. The stems on the 'Print Screen' and 'C' keys were broken, so I had to replace them and now I'm starting to think the '8' and '0' key switches are worn out and will need to replace them. So call it $34 after replacing 4 switches.

Overall, I love it though and I got a fantastic deal.

sunsmells · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:52:27 »

holy wow that's a deal. I've gotta start keeping my eyes open.

CodeChef · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 20:02:11 »

Buyer beware, I've read many reviews saying that the Naos is extremely uncomfortable.

sunsmells · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:24:07 »

It may not be for everyone, but it's closer to the Ikari than anything else. I did a lot of research on the Naos before I bought it and found almost nothing bad about it. There aren't a lot of reviews on the mouse itself, kinda wondering where these host of reviews saying it's uncomfortable are on the internets exactly

ch_123 · « **Reply #26 on:** Sat, 11 December 2010, 03:11:59 »

The Naos would get away looking like a tacky ripoff of the Ikari if it wasn't more expensive then the Ikari...

Steelseries mice are great, but they really need to stop being so expensive.

sunsmells · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 12 December 2010, 13:44:37 »

Quote from: ch_123;261201

Steelseries mice are great

OP said Ikari broke AGAIN...

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:29:59 »

Quote from: sunsmells;261774

OP said Ikari broke AGAIN...

they are great, when they work.

Moneyless · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun, 12 December 2010, 18:30:13 »

Here is a review of the Mionix Naos 3200 from bit-tech.net, which from what I can see is the same mouse but with a lower DPI and no weights, right? (And one for the Naos 5000 as well)

They've named it their "best gaming mouse."

nmd · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon, 13 December 2010, 00:25:38 »

Quote from: CodeChef;261066

Buyer beware, I've read many reviews saying that the Naos is extremely uncomfortable.

Where? I seen the Naos at Fry's and remember seeing it when it was released on their site and was curious about it. After reading a plethora of reviews then and recently they all shared a common pro: most comfortable mouse they had used.

Not a fan of the price range or the S.Q.A.T. software with the 5000 model, iirc I read some of them when initially released "wobbled" but I've yet to read anything bad other than the price.

sunsmells · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 14 December 2010, 16:44:07 »

no wobbles on mine. the 3200 doesn't have the LED dpi indicator on the side; only scroll wheel and logo have lighting. Lower DPI on the 3200, no S.Q.A.T. analyzer (not necessary), no weights (also not necessary for me) and I BELIEVE only 1 profile to the mouse. Besides that they're the same mouse.

CodeChef · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 14 December 2010, 19:18:23 »

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/37713-mionix-naos-3200-high-performance-gaming-mouse-review.html

I'd trust these guys with any computer-related review. They've been good to me for years.

Fishraper · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed, 15 December 2010, 04:32:49 »

I've had a SS Xai and Logitech MX518, both are great mice, moved onto the Xai however because I love new and shiny things ^^ and it turns out to be amazing!!

sunsmells · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 16 December 2010, 12:08:10 »

Strange, that hardwarecanucks review is the first one I've seen saying it's uncomfortable. Again I recommended the 5000, not the 3200, as I don't have it.

nmd · « **Reply #35 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 01:12:01 »

I picked up the Mionix Naos 3200 tonight. I have no way of understanding how any person could say this mouse is uncomfortable. It isn't feasible. I call shenanigans.

The clicks are perfect, the clicks between steps on the mouse wheel is perfect. The LEDs aren't changeable like you may think, it's a misnomer for the 3200: you get red/blue/green and can assign them to 800/1600/3200 DPI - nothing in between which sucks because 1200 is generally perfect for me. The clicks are require less force than the Xai and most Logitechs, it's comparable to the Razer where they're very light which is what I prefer.

The shape is ****ing heavenly. The braided cord isn't stiff(which is why I generally hate them, this and the Razer Carcharias are the only non-stiff braided cords I've found.) The mouse feet are the thickest I've found on a mouse - hopefully meaning they'll last longer. They did scrub terribly on my SteelSeries 9HD at first but after 1-2 minutes it went away completely, smooth as butter now and completely silent.

The coating is better than the SteelSeries Xai which was previously my favorite. It's a smooth rubber coating similar to that which is found on the XArmor U9BL housing.

The software is much better than what Razer uses(of course), comparable to SteelSeries/Logitech in ease of use.

I can see why the Naos gets so many 5/5s and perfect reviews with the only con being price(the 5000 wasn't worth the additional $30 to me.)

I'm genuinely in awe. The only problem I'm having atm is when I pick up the mouse to "reset" it. I'm not used to a mouse this wide and with how smooth it is I have to grip a tad harder than I'm accustomed to with smaller mice, though I'm sure I'll get used to it. The pinky indenture isn't as pronounced as I believed it would be but that's a good thing - I prefer having my pinky touching the mouse pad slightly.

That's it. I'm sold. Never thought I'd say this...

The Mionix Naos 5000 is the best mouse ever, but for $30 less you can get the Mionix Naos 3200 with a couple things missing that I wouldn't really make use of(unless you can make the LEDs purple or pink of course ^.^)

Best. Mouse. Ever. This one goes to 11.

msiegel · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 01:26:11 »

Quote from: nmd;264413

The shape

Interestingly, the Naos' profile looks very similar to the Microsoft Intellimouse PS/2 ball mouse i'm using right now. ...Which is less comfortable for my palm but *more* comfortable for my finger joints than the taller MX 500 I had been using.

nmd · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 01:28:47 »

Dunno, I use palm grip and it feels perfect. I usually tend to go for smaller shaped mice too which this is by no means a small mouse imo.

msiegel · « **Reply #38 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 01:31:07 »

my hands are average size... but i can tell if they were smaller, palm grip would be more comfortable using this shape

keyboardlover · « **Reply #39 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 08:35:17 »

Quote from: nmd;264418

Dunno, I use palm grip and it feels perfect.

That's what she said.

vld · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 10:50:50 »

mx518...it will outlive you

msiegel · « **Reply #41 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 10:57:52 »

i've worn parts of an mx 500 smooth, and rubbed off a fair bit of the color. also, my scroll wheel has gone flaky turning downward. would a 518 be more durable?

vld · « **Reply #42 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 11:03:18 »

Quote from: msiegel;264634

i've worn parts of an mx 500 smooth, and rubbed off a fair bit of the color. also, my scroll wheel has gone flaky turning downward. would a 518 be more durable?

not sure

mb this one then? since its mostly metal...

turbocharged · « **Reply #43 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 11:16:16 »

Nmd...I was already sold on the Naos, but that post is forcing me to place my order today...thanks.

nmd · « **Reply #44 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 15:33:09 »

Quote from: ripster;264560

Best Mouse Evah!

I got a drawer full of the things. Commodities if you ask me.

It's not something I say lightly having tried too damned many mice and always finding an issue with them. If there's an issue with this mouse - I can't find it.

Other than not gripping it tight enough when I reposition it(which I've fixed, got accustomed to it being more narrow at the top and gripping tighter because of how smooth the rubber is) the only other thing is the buttons are seriously sensitive. I got used to the Xai requiring a lot of force to click, just moving the mouse I accidentally set off the right mouse button occasionally. I'm not used to a mouse requiring such light pressure to click, can't think of one really that's close in that regard. I can spam clicks roughly 3-4 times faster than the Xai because of it. Joy!

The left/right clicks are on a hair trigger. The mouse wheel(<3 defined steps when scrolling up and down) and back/forward buttons are exactly the same force required as the Xai, not too much and not too light - just right.

Quote from: msiegel

Stuff about mx518 durability.

The original DeathAdder, G5 and G9 I own have outlived every other mouse I've had, though obviously they haven't received much usage lately since I got my Xai months ago. I'm generally pretty good with keeping peripherals in good condition though.

I'd say any of Logitechs, gaming mice at least, would be durable. Generally pretty good customer service too. Bang for the buck the MX 518 is one of the better deals currently easily.

WhiteRice · « **Reply #45 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 15:37:20 »

Logitech has the best customer service. You just have to call them and read them the serial number on your product. If it is still under warranty they'll ship you a new one.

msiegel · « **Reply #46 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 15:44:18 »

thanks

it's from 2004 XD

J888www · « **Reply #47 on:** Fri, 17 December 2010, 16:23:26 »

I have to agree with all who recommended the MX518, ATM Amazon has it reduced to £16.99 Delivered FREE in the UK and I'm tempted even though I don't need another Mouse.

turbocharged · « **Reply #48 on:** Sat, 18 December 2010, 21:19:04 »

I bit the bullet and went with the high end....Just bought my Mionix Naos 5000 along with my gf's Garmin Nuvi 255W christmas present from Newegg. I can't wait to give it a go.

Anyone interested in a perfect condition Logitech G9x? PM me.

Conditioned · « **Reply #49 on:** Sun, 19 December 2010, 03:05:55 »

I just realized I´m a bit of a deathadder (3g only) fanboy. The reason is this. When you take in consideration 2007 esreality mousescore and http://www.overclock.net/mice/854100-ocn-mouse-sensor-reference-performance-sheet.html you realize that there are pretty much only 3 mice that are really good for gaming (something I took up again recently). Ie3.0, wmo 1.1a and the deathadder 3g. The first two are probably great if you play something at low res (800x600) but those extra dpi come in handy with greater res (I have 1900x1080 in bfbc2 here).

They dont have prediction, no pos/neg accel and work up to very high speeds without malfunctioning on all surfaces. Also lod is quite low. Ofc, this only matters if you are gaming a lot.

Btw nmd, wanna trade that old used deathadder for a zowie ec1 which has been used for 1 min that comes in the original box?

nmd · « **Reply #50 on:** Sun, 19 December 2010, 03:49:48 »

It's one of the original 1800 DPI mice. You'd need to replace the mouse feet. Other than that I cleaned it a few months back to kill time. If you're still interested send me a PM.

Conditioned · « **Reply #51 on:** Sun, 19 December 2010, 04:51:29 »

Ok, pm:ed .

CodeChef · « **Reply #52 on:** Mon, 20 December 2010, 08:38:26 »

NMD, I have to say revealing the fact that you're female is dangerous. Sooooo many kitchen jokes are headed your way.

Anyways, I still totally disagree with you. Super fat and wide and bumpy != comfortable. I want a mouse, not a rock with sliders. The G9 is extremely nice in terms of features and sensor but the shape can be fatiguing over a long time if you grip it the way I do (I have a tendancy to only hold it with my fingers, basically a hybrid fingertip/palm grip. Think palm grip minus the palm.) In terms of controllability (while using a normal palm grip) I think the MX518/G5/G500 shape can't be beat. Mionix's shape is just too huge and bulky to be wielded with any accuracy. You don't see Boxer, Fruit Dealer, iNcontrol, etc. using fatass mice. In fact I'm pretty sure the biggest mouse I've seen used by a pro gay mer was a G5...

nmd · « **Reply #53 on:** Mon, 20 December 2010, 09:25:13 »

I'm used to the jokes, there's plenty worse that tend to go along with them as well, mostly boob related obviously. Nothing I don't hear IRL, no reason to hide the fact, I could care less - plus some of it is genuinely funny.

The G9 with the smooth shell is almost exactly the same width. This is the first mouse I've used in this shape(Ikari is similar, there's others.) My favorite mice previously have been the G9/DeathAdder/Imperator(mostly this one.) I used the Xai for a while because it's such a good mouse and all the buttons on it had great clicks even if very firm... though after hours the shape would get a little annoying. I can say without a doubt, having used probably 50+ mice this is by far the most comfortable. The clicks are the best I've found for RTS gaming too. They're super light compared to the Xai's. Seriously, they are extraordinarily light, I'm still right clicking accidentally when moving the mouse because I'm so used to how much was required to press the Xai's buttons.

Hands down, this is by far the most perfect mouse, at least for me. Sounds like you have a weird/unorthodox grip however so I can imagine using a mouse that cradles your hand in such a heavenly manner would be odd.

I also found both the MX 518 and the G500 too high for me to use comfortably, I'm fine using any of the three popular grips. Not to mention the gloss on the MX 518 and most of Razers products makes me want to hurt the elderly because of how it feels after an hour or more.

I wouldn't get too worried about what progamers use either to be fair. Many used and some still use rubber domes. Almost, if not everyone, on EG uses a SteelSeries 6gv2 which imho for RTS is ****ing retarded -- it's great for FPS though. Perhaps they just don't know of the alternatives or don't want to risk getting used to new equipment when they're sponsored? Without naming names, I know people sponsored by Razer that complain about the mice they're required to use(ie: Abyssus.) Pros tend to use what they have, what they've won or what they're required to use.

Other than the Naos 3200, my 2nd favorite mouse grip wise is the Razer Imperator but because of the high gloss I can't use it(the Z-axis bug was a bit exaggerated, it was still useable to me but the gloss I couldn't stand.) I almost exclusively always used small mice, this isn't the smallest but by God it's the most comfortable.

Seriously, if you have one at a B&M store and are looking for a new mouse, try it. If you don't like it just return it. Everywhere I normally shop that has user reviews has it receiving perfect scores except from one person(out of roughly 30ish) that claimed it gave them random blue screens of death - hell, they even said it had great ergonomics.

To be fair, I was going to try the Zowie EC-2 even with its wheel bug since they apparently fixed it until I saw the Naos in Fry's and figured I could just return it if it sucked. What happened instead is me about to put almost all my other mice on eBay(I would randomly go back to them for no real reason.) Other than a hardware glitch/failure I don't see myself changing mice unless I'm required too.

Didn't mean to wall of text this so much, sorry.

nmd · « **Reply #54 on:** Mon, 20 December 2010, 09:30:58 »

To expand on that, now that I recall(incoming blonde jokes, ya ya): I've tried the ergonomic mice Microsoft offers and didn't really find any that I liked(ones similar in shape to the Naos that tilt your hand more to the right.)

I had to examine the shell as well because when I hold it, it feels like I get a draft between my ring/pinky fingers. It's the weirdest thing. Similar to how the grip on the Logitech ChillStream is with the fan set to low. Seriously, want to buy a controller for the PS3/Xbox360 that offers a fan like the ChillStream.

My main(lol, I mean only) gripe is how the LED/DPI system works on the 3200. You're forced to use Red/Green/Blue in that order. So my level1(red) is 3200, green is 800 and blue is 1600. I use blue/1600 because blue matches my keyboard and it's closer to the 1200 dpi I prefer without being as slow as the 800 offered.

Would be nice if they let you select between 400/800-3200 in steps like other mice at this price range or higher, I believe the 5000 lets you do just that and pick your LED color(wtb pink, /cry.)

sunsmells · « **Reply #55 on:** Mon, 20 December 2010, 13:13:51 »

the 5000 allows you to pick custom dpi settings down to increments of 10, independent x and y if you should like. in any colors. and you can set custom lift off height.

Conditioned · « **Reply #56 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 03:15:55 »

nmd, I´m not sure if the pm:system is broken, if my fx addons are really mean to this site or whats going on. My email is buspojke <>at<> gmail.com.

fuzzybyte · « **Reply #57 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:14:34 »

Naos is about 10 EUR cheaper that Ikari laser and the only major difference I can spot is its optical sensor instead of laser one.

Is a laser sensor superior to optical or vice versa?

sunsmells · « **Reply #58 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 15:17:55 »

laser is capable of a higher dpi reading. some people complain that the tracking is a bit more sensitive to different surfaces, but I've never had an issue with any laser mouse I've tested/used on mousepads, wood and fabric(just don't game with a wireless..). generally far more precise.
seriously go buy a ss qck mini, cm storm or a razer kabuto mousepad and never complain.

additional info: http://tinyurl.com/2au9edp

Conditioned · « **Reply #59 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 15:56:35 »

Higher dpi than ~1500 is only needed in fps where you can aim between pixels. Very few people can do that.

sunsmells · « **Reply #60 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:06:56 »

Mionix, like most niche high end mice companies, allow a custom sensitivity rating independent of dpi rating -- lowering this rating and raising the dpi yields more accurate tracking at the same mouse speed. This benefits everything, from gaming to editing to general use. Please research before misleading people.

elbowglue · « **Reply #61 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:46:52 »

Damnit. Why did I have to read this thread.

Ok so I use a MX510 daily playing SC2 typically. Now I realize the MX518 has prediction, whereas the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 does not. Now I wonder if the MX510 uses prediction (I think it does according to OCN) and now I wonder if I need to get a intellimouse explorer 3.0 to see if there is a significant difference in feel.

Damn you!!

sunsmells · « **Reply #62 on:** Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:56:54 »

haha, to top it off, prediction as well as acceleration all affect mouse movement. start studying xD

Azuremen · « **Reply #63 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 00:49:38 »

The prediction on the Mx518 isn't really bad though, many gamers still swear by that mouse. Hell, I can't decide if I prefer it to the G9x I have now.

All this talk of the Mionix Naos as got me really curious about it though, since I feel the G9x could be a bit more comfortable to use. But then I think I might just need a huge mouse since I have relatively large hands (I'm 6'4") and thus everything feels a bit small in my hands. Right now my pinky tends to get rubbed a bit funny by my surface because of how I have to curl my hand around the mouse a bit.

BTW, the reason all the SC2 EG player use the 6Gv2 is that SteelSeries is their sponsor. Thus idra, inControl, and others are on that keyboard.

Conditioned · « **Reply #64 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:21:24 »

"custom sensitivity rating independent of dpi rating". I´m sure you had some sort of point with this.

Increased dpi will only increase accuracy until you move the pointer 1 pixel per smallest movement increments. Like I said, most people cant move mouse in small enough increments to be able to do inbetween pixel movement.

Hence there is a sweet spot where increasing dpi doesnt increase accuracy since humans cant distinguish between the two.

Please do your research before repudiating the info I´m giving, especially if you claim I´m misleading people and are promoting yourself forward as some sort of expert.

Bullveyr · « **Reply #65 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:32:32 »

Quote from: sunsmells;266865

Mionix, like most niche high end mice companies, allow a custom sensitivity rating independent of dpi rating -- lowering this rating and raising the dpi yields more accurate tracking at the same mouse speed. This benefits everything, from gaming to editing to general use.

Driver Sensitivity just like Windows Pointer Speed doesn't give you more accuracy, actually it's more the other way around.

Quote from: elbowglue;266890

Ok so I use a MX510 daily playing SC2 typically. Now I realize the MX518 has prediction, whereas the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 does not. Now I wonder if the MX510 uses prediction (I think it does according to OCN) and now I wonder if I need to get a intellimouse explorer 3.0 to see if there is a significant difference in feel.

Angle Snapping (I don't like this prediction term

) is overrated for most people, which ofc doesn't mean that you might prefer a mouse without it.

Yes, the MX510 has Angle Snapping.

Conditioned · « **Reply #66 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:33:33 »

Quote from: elbowglue;266890

Damnit. Why did I have to read this thread.

Ok so I use a MX510 daily playing SC2 typically. Now I realize the MX518 has prediction, whereas the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 does not. Now I wonder if the MX510 uses prediction (I think it does according to OCN) and now I wonder if I need to get a intellimouse explorer 3.0 to see if there is a significant difference in feel.

Damn you!!

If you are using a modern resolution the 3.0 has only 400 dpi hence limiting your accuracy. There are top tier fps:ers using the mx5* mice and should be fine to use with gaming in sc imho (im no sc expert). Just clock the usb bus with http://www.ngohq.com/news/15043-how-to-increase-usb-sample-rate-in-windows-vista-7-a.html.

Otherwise the only gaming mouse worth the name (if you ask me) is the deathadder 1800 dpi. Very high speed is needed for it to not track accurately. no prediction, no accel and low lod.

Conditioned · « **Reply #67 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:35:26 »

Quote from: Bullveyr;267105

Driver Sensitivity just like Windows Pointer Speed doesn't give you more accuracy, actually it's more the other way around.

Angle Snapping (I don't like this prediction term ) is overrated for most people, which ofc doesn't mean that you might prefer a mouse without it.

Yes, the MX510 has Angle Snapping.

Yes you want to leave windows sens at the defaultt 6/11 for accurate 1/1 tracking. Please try it with mousemovement recorder which you can get at http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html. Its included in markc´s fix.

Bullveyr · « **Reply #68 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 02:50:07 »

Quote from: Conditioned;267109

Yes you want to leave windows sens at the defaultt 6/11 for accurate 1/1 tracking. Please try it with mousemovement recorder which you can get at http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html. Its included in markc´s fix.

Why are you telling me tings I allready know?

Conditioned · « **Reply #69 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 05:30:37 »

Oops doublep.

Conditioned · « **Reply #70 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 05:31:11 »

You dont like to be told things you already know

I thought you liked paradox. :
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripster View Post
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

PS. wasn´t talking to you

. Hm, you are on razerblueprints too are you.

Bullveyr · « **Reply #71 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 06:44:40 »

yep, I'm on RBP too

sunsmells · « **Reply #72 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 13:34:46 »

Azureman - take into consideration that the Naos is a lower profile mouse than you might think. I love it, but really large hands will still probably make it feel small. In honestly I think you could take a look at the Imperator, as it's about the same length (although not width) but much taller. It's damn comfortable too, though the plastic thumb area gets sweaty. You should also check out CM Sentinel, looks pretty great.

Conditioned - I wasn't trying to call you out but the people here seem to be enthusiastic. Everyone wants reasoning for their recent or upcoming large purchases. Of course we (humans[?]) can't detect sub-pixel movement, but that doesn't mean our hardware isn't capable. Given this doesn't really mean much to everyday users, but to people serious about games or photo-editing, it makes a difference.
So you can say just grab an oldschool deathadder, but it's still lacking major features besides a higher dpi. I personally use 4 different profiles (each with 3 dpi setting) for different uses: one for regular use, one for fps, one for rts, and one for photoshop. Customizing your in game sensitivity vs dpi to find that "sweet spot" with the added knowledge that your hardware is performing on a level that even you might not be able to immediately notice is a good thing. You could call all of this marketing hype, but combined with a 1Mhz polling rate, you can feel the increased fluidity in your movement. And with a good monitor, you can see the difference. Again, these are things to consider further than just dpi, wasn't trying to call BS on you.

What about those super-low sensitivity gamers that want that higher dpi for smooth movement? I see you're using a goliath pad, would you still prefer your 3g to the 1800?

Bullveyr - 'Angle Snapping (I don't like this prediction term

) is overrated for most people' - Call it what you will, I completely agree here. I really hated the snapping on the Xai. But it is something you have to watch out for, no?

Conditioned · « **Reply #73 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 16:02:58 »

Yes I know you said it makes a difference. I´m not saying it´s not noticeable, I´m saying it doesnt have a real world (practical) application. Maybe you can benefit from higher than 1500 if you have a 30" (cant remember res on those atm) or 3 monitors with ati´s eyefinity (its like 2500x1080 or so) otherwise I stand by my statement.

I´m not saying the da is the best mouse there is for everything, but imho playing at higher resolutions (fps only, for other types of games I think only tracking is really important) it´s the only alternative atm. It supports 5 profiles btw.

3g=1800 dpi da, 3.5g 3500 dpi da.

Xai doesnt have prediction/angle snapping unless you turn it on (if I understood it correctly I dont have one).

Personally I only think prediction matters in other games than fps unless its huge ofc, but I wouldnt know of any that has so much.

The only reason I recommend only wmo 1.1a, ie30 and da 3g for fps gaming is all other mice seem to have some issue with tracking on more than a few surfaces, accel (neg/pos), high liftoft or angle snapping. On the other hand, there seem to be a lot of people happy with the xai for example.

It seems the sensors that are made are good but firmwares lacking. I really dont understand why companies cant make a really good mouse without all those little issues. I really like quality a _lot_ and I know a lot of people (I guess most here are like that) that when there´s something you either do a lot or is a hobby/like doing you want to have good quality products for that and are willing to pay. Btw, lets discuss this furhter when I get my topre, I really dont like this arctosa (for typing its ok to game on).

. I should get it tomorrow.
On that note btw, it´s gonna be interesting to see where the mech keyboard market is going over the next few years, the interest seems to be increasing, probably cause people spend more and more time in front of their computers and want good stuff.

elbowglue · « **Reply #74 on:** Wed, 22 December 2010, 19:12:51 »

Thanks for the input guys - I tried a microsoft wheel optical mouse (same sensor as intellimouse 1.1), overclocked the USB port. It works quite good but for my resolution it's not the best 1650x1080, not senstivite enough cause my mouse pad space is kind of small. For this I would have to crank the sensitivity up from 51% in SC2 to like 70-80%, and I'd be skipping pixels.

So I busted out a MX518 I had in storage, which works just right, it's the 1800mhz version, OC'ed the USB port to 500hz, works great. Although the built in DPI options (1800, 950, and 400 I think) are either too sensative or too slow. So I'll have to install setpoint (ugh) to make custom DPI's, otherwise I'd have to decrease SC2 sensitivity and risk non 1:1 mapping.

MX518 works great (Now I see why everyone likes the zowie). I'm somewhat saddened by the angle snapping I'm getting with it, but it isn't so bad with SC2, would be worse I guess with first person shooters. Too bad there isn't a mouse with MX518 sensor without prediction.

Now I wonder if I should use my keyboard via PS2 to use interrupt speed instead of 125hz keyboard polling speed

I guess this dosen't make that much of a difference anyhow.

Whats interetsing is that when I use the mouse with 500hz polling speed, I notice a bit increased snappiness of my clicks taking effect. It might be placebo but it seems it increases my APM / responsiveness. Maybe in my head.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Conditioned · « **Reply #75 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 00:44:47 »

Yea I think default is 8ms at 125hz and should be.. 2 I think at 500 so yea if you have played enough hours you can definately distinguish between the two. I remember in..2000 when so many people said you couldnt see difference from 75hz on the monitor and up. I tried it up to 125 hz in increments and could see the difference. It´s a lot easier ofc on crt´s.

Well ps/2 gives you possibility of full nkro, I dont play sc2, but I can see how that could be usefil and increase your apm maybe even. Ps/2 > usb for keybaords.

Ps. I stumbled upon sujoys article explaining dpi http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=2

Bullveyr · « **Reply #76 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 04:45:16 »

Quote from: sunsmells;267372

Of course we (humans[?]) can't detect sub-pixel movement, but that doesn't mean our hardware isn't capable. Given this doesn't really mean much to everyday users, but to people serious about games or photo-editing, it makes a difference.

There is no "sub pixel movement" in a 2D enviroment like photo-editing.

Quote

What about those super-low sensitivity gamers that want that higher dpi for smooth movement?

Most low sensers don't have a need for high CPI, hey with real low sense and very high CPI you would even hit the game engines limit.

Quote

Bullveyr - 'Angle Snapping (I don't like this prediction term ) is overrated for most people' - Call it what you will, I completely agree here. I really hated the snapping on the Xai. But it is something you have to watch out for, no?

What, Xai doesn't have angle snapping (unless you turn FreeMove on).

Quote from: Conditioned;267448

Personally I only think prediction matters in other games than fps unless its huge ofc, but I wouldnt know of any that has so much.

It also depend on the FPS, there are people who prefer it for playing W:ET but hate it for Q3.
In a horizontal FPS where you and your opponent stay on the same level it can help you to track his head for headies.

Quote

The only reason I recommend only wmo 1.1a, ie30 and da 3g for fps gaming..

I'm not a big fan of the IME/WMO/IMO because of their not really high max. speed.

It seems the sensors that are made are good but firmwares lacking. I really dont understand why companies cant make a really good mouse without all those little issues. I really like quality a _lot_ and I know a lot of people (I guess most here are like that) that when there´s something you either do a lot or is a hobby/like doing you want to have good quality products for that and are willing to pay.
[/QUOTE]
A lot of the sensor issues are not really firmware issues.
For the companies it's more about making a mouse that you can sell and stay in business, simply making a good mouse isn't enough.
They are also limited by the available sensors.

Quote from: elbowglue;267529

So I busted out a MX518 I had in storage, which works just right, it's the 1800mhz version, OC'ed the USB port to 500hz, works great. Although the built in DPI options (1800, 950, and 400 I think) are either too sensative or too slow. So I'll have to install setpoint (ugh) to make custom DPI's, otherwise I'd have to decrease SC2 sensitivity and risk non 1:1 mapping.

Setpoint does the same thing, it also doesn't give you "1:1 mapping".

Quote from: Conditioned;267624

Ps. I stumbled upon sujoys article explaining dpi http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=2

That formula is actually wrong but you can still use it because it gives you a higher min. CPI value than the correct formula anyway.

Conditioned · « **Reply #77 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 05:27:17 »

It also depend on the FPS, there are people who prefer it for playing W:ET but hate it for Q3.
In a horizontal FPS where you and your opponent stay on the same level it can help you to track his head for headies.

I'm not a big fan of the IME/WMO/IMO because of their not really high max. speed.
[/quote]
Yea, I been thinking about high/low sens some, and heres my thoughts on that. If you have really low sens, you do it so it´s easier to move the mouse where you want it to be, ie give you more accuracy. The thing is, if you have really low sens, you have to move your whole arm to get it there most of the time,w hile with 'high' or med sens you can do that with your wrist only. Wrist will give you higher accuracy and will, in really low sens, be in comparison so minscule a movement so you still would have to move your arm which in turn would give you lower sens. Personally I believe that having really low sens is more or less asking for rsi.
Then ofc you can speculate on how precise a human can be ofc. Still, these are the best mice, and almost exclusively used by high end gamers (q3/ql/cs) as far as I can tell. I saw some thread on esr (see you are there too, are you stalking me? I have headphones so I can hear your footsteps).

It seems the sensors that are made are good but firmwares lacking. I really dont understand why companies cant make a really good mouse without all those little issues. I really like quality a _lot_ and I know a lot of people (I guess most here are like that) that when there´s something you either do a lot or is a hobby/like doing you want to have good quality products for that and are willing to pay.
[/QUOTE]
A lot of the sensor issues are not really firmware issues.
For the companies it's more about making a mouse that you can sell and stay in business, simply making a good mouse isn't enough.
They are also limited by the available sensors.

[/quote Da had a lot of problems in the begginning that were fixed by firmware. Xai seems to get better with every new firmware, like a lot of other mice. Seems to me if you had a perfect firmware, a lot of the problems could be fixed, but its just not profitable to have some guy be as thorough with mice as we want them to be.

Setpoint does the same thing, it also doesn't give you "1:1 mapping".

That formula is actually wrong but you can still use it because it gives you a higher min. CPI value than the correct formula anyway.[/QUOTE]

Yea I saw some guy who claimed to have a formula that was more correct. Doesnt mean its incorrect. Prove it´s wrong if you claim so

A lot of newton math is still used in for example the aeroplane world, and they are all 'wrong' but work for the purpose.

Bullveyr · « **Reply #78 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 07:15:21 »

Quote from: Conditioned;267696

Yea, I been thinking about high/low sens some, and heres my thoughts on that. If you have really low sens, you do it so it´s easier to move the mouse where you want it to be, ie give you more accuracy. The thing is, if you have really low sens, you have to move your whole arm to get it there most of the time,w hile with 'high' or med sens you can do that with your wrist only. Wrist will give you higher accuracy and will, in really low sens, be in comparison so minscule a movement so you still would have to move your arm which in turn would give you lower sens. Personally I believe that having really low sens is more or less asking for rsi.

With low sense you still can use your wrist for the small adjustments.

Never had an RSI problem but with about 33-34cm/360° my sensitivity isn't taht low.

Quote

Then ofc you can speculate on how precise a human can be ofc.

Hard to tell where the usuall limit is but we can be pretty precise.
Hitting a specific pixel even with very high CPI isn't a big problem but actual accuracy in fluent gameplay is a different thing.

Quote

Still, these are the best mice, and almost exclusively used by high end gamers (q3/ql/cs) as far as I can tell.

I'm not saying they are bad but certainly not the holy grail (+ kind of outdated)

Quote

I saw some thread on esr (see you are there too, are you stalking me? I have headphones so I can hear your footsteps).

The chances I hear you first with my equipment is pretty high.

Quote

Da had a lot of problems in the begginning that were fixed by firmware. Xai seems to get better with every new firmware, like a lot of other mice. Seems to me if you had a perfect firmware, a lot of the problems could be fixed, but its just not profitable to have some guy be as thorough with mice as we want them to be.

I was more talking about general problems of different mice, like small pos. accel., z-axis tracking or low max. speed.
As a manufacturer you can ofc **** up the (mouse-) firmware, especially considering you have to find the right balance between tracking and LOD on many surfaces with an optical sensor.
Imho a lot of the problems of the DA came from the IR Led (marketing stunt), using a normal red LED actually solved those issues.

Xai had iirc 2 different official firmwares and the last one is more than 1 year old but general tracking and performance was good right from the start.

Quote

Yea I saw some guy who claimed to have a formula that was more correct. Doesnt mean its incorrect. Prove it´s wrong if you claim so

A lot of newton math is still used in for example the aeroplane world, and they are all 'wrong' but work for the purpose.

I simply quote injx.

Quote

the mouse resolution determines the smallest angle you can rotate your view by in game, for a given sensitivity.

if you want this smallest angle to be small enough so that you can turn your view by 1 pixel (to the pixel next to where your crosshair is), you need to know what angle that distance of 1 pixel represents on your screen.

the current method that everyone seems to use calculates the average number of degrees per pixel over the whole screen. this is wrong, however it is the simplest mathematically.

the projection of the 3D world onto the 2D plane of your screen (read: fishbowl effect), means the pixels located near the crosshair represent much larger angles than those pixels located at the edges of your screen.

so to do the calculation properly, you have to calculate how many degrees a single pixel represents at the centre of the screen.

if you do it properly, you get:

R = ( pi * W ) / ( I * tan[ F / 2 ] )

where
W = screen resolution width
I = real sensitivity (distance per 360 turn)
F = horizontal fov

R = mouse resolution required

convert your sens to inches if you want R in units of dpi.

With my settings (1680*1050, 33cm/360°, FOV 120) in RtCW for example it makes a big difference.

Sujoys formula: ~388 CPI

injxs formula: ~235 CPI

In that case nobody would still use Newton.

Conditioned · « **Reply #79 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 07:44:47 »

Quote from: Bullveyr;267707

With low sense you still can use your wrist for the small adjustments.

Thats my point. Im not saying 100% higher sens is all good, but if you have very low sens you cant move your wrist enough without either hurting it and/or making a difference as to where to position the mouse cursor. All loose-loose if you ask me.

Never had an RSI problem but with about 33-34cm/360° my sensitivity isn't taht low.

I had. I had pretty low, think 25/360 but I´m not that young any more. Thats the point, if you have low enough you are increasing your chance of getting rsi imho. Then ofc comes in how much you tense your muscles above the minimum needed, your diet, overall fitness etc.

Hard to tell where the usuall limit is but we can be pretty precise.

Hitting a specific pixel even with very high CPI isn't a big problem but actual accuracy in fluent gameplay is a different thing.

Neither of these are very precise statements. My point is we cant know what our limits are before we can actually measure nervous system throughput in an accurate way.

I'm not saying they are bad but certainly not the holy grail (+ kind of outdated)

The chances I hear you first with my equipment is pretty high.

Ha, first time ever I bother with a sig and you dont even read it

jk, I dont have my volume that high to hear you all the way from esreality

I was more talking about general problems of different mice, like small pos. accel., z-axis tracking or low max. speed.
As a manufacturer you can ofc **** up the (mouse-) firmware, especially considering you have to find the right balance between tracking and LOD on many surfaces with an optical sensor.
Imho a lot of the problems of the DA came from the IR Led (marketing stunt), using a normal red LED actually solved those issues.

Xai had iirc 2 different official firmwares and the last one is more than 1 year old but general tracking and performance was good right from the start.

I simply quote injx.

Im not saying he´s not right, im saying thats his opinion and not nesserily 100% accurate either. Probably some guy will come around and improve it even more

In that case nobody would still use Newton.

Actually they do. Even in space

Simply put, it´s good enough. Like most mice are

[/QUOTE]

Bullveyr · « **Reply #80 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 07:55:25 »

Quote from: Conditioned;267709

Ha, first time ever I bother with a sig and you dont even read it jk, I dont have my volume that high to hear you all the way from esreality

Oops.
Pretty much the same as mine but I have an external headphone amp and DAC between my X-Fi and my K701.

Quote

Im not saying he´s not right, im saying thats his opinion and not nesserily 100% accurate either. Probably some guy will come around and improve it even more

At least it's not proofen to be wrong and makes sense.

Quote

Actually they do. Even in space Simply put, it´s good enough. Like most mice are

I know but I meant if the difference between Einstein (?) and Newton would be that big nobody would still use Newton.

sunsmells · « **Reply #81 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 09:02:22 »

Totally forgot about 3g/3.5g denomination. I had a 3.5g for about a month and never had any tracking issues for it. I still think it's a good mouse, and though I've read a sh#%load of reviews, I haven't owned enough nice mice to really have any strong feelings towards them (save my current one).

And Bullveyr I wasn't talking about sub-pixel movement in photoediting, though I see why that was a terrible word placement on my part. I was talking more along the lines of fast editing (magic wand) of hi-res pics.

My roommate had a Xai and always had snapping on; everytime I sat down at his machine I felt like the mouse never moved where my hand was moving. I kept bringing it up to him but he never got around to changing it before he swapped it out for a g500.

That formula from injx is pretty boss.

Conditioned · « **Reply #82 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 09:26:41 »

the 3.5g has some new nice firmware. Oh god it feels so good to write on a good keyhboard again after so many years.

Frio · « **Reply #83 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:26:33 »

I play tf2 competitively and I used many, many different mice (mx 518/deathadder/those microsoft gaming mice) and the one I like the most is the mionix naos 3200. Light weight, awesome build quality and amazing ergonomics

Bullveyr · « **Reply #84 on:** Mon, 27 December 2010, 05:21:06 »

Quote from: sunsmells;267747

My roommate had a Xai and always had snapping on; everytime I sat down at his machine I felt like the mouse never moved where my hand was moving. I kept bringing it up to him but he never got around to changing it before he swapped it out for a g500.

can't blame the mouse for that

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