Author Topic: Considering a Kinesis Advantage Purchase... (Read 23436 times)

bradpowers · « **on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 20:17:48 »

Hello,

I've been lurking around the forum for a while now, absorbing as much information as I could. I'm a graduate student in robotics (basically a programmer) which means that I'm at a computer 12-14 hours a day. I've been beginning to feel cramps and mild pain in my hands, wrists, and occasionally shoulders, which has prompted me to start looking into fixing my work environment. Sadly, I'm also a graduate student, so that started with free things such as a timer to remind me to take breaks, as well as remapping caps lock as a control key, and others. That said, I'm starting my career with a job in February. Because of the amount of typing I do, and the fact that I'm beginning to feel pain at the ripe old age of 23, I want to try a more ergonomic keyboard. After much research, it appears that a Kinesis Advantage may be quite excellent, as it remaps the (frequently used) keys normally on the finger with the most pain (the pinky) to one with none (the thumb). They don't call it emacs pinky for nothing!

Now that you know my situation, I have a couple of questions.

1) I've seen talk of a Kinesis Advantage LF. If I were going to pay for a keyboard such as the Kinesis, I want it to be perfect. Should I go for the LF or the regular version?

2) Is there anyone in the Philadelphia or Boston areas with a spare Kinesis I could try for a week or so?

3) Has anyone found compelling keymaps for an emacs user? I'll be relying heavily on ctrl and alt, so perhaps putting ctrl on the left thumb and alt on the right would be optimal?

I'll post more questions if I think of any.

Thanks,
Bradley Powers

sordna · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 20:57:31 »

Welcome to GH! I'll try to answer some of your questions:

1) LF or regular? LF is $325 from manufacturer direct only. The regular one is available on Amazon with free shiping for $269. These keyboards have different switches, as a robotics student you'll have no problem reading the very descriptive force graphs on the excellent Cherry wiki. The LF has red switches (linear action, only resistance being the spring), while the regular model has brown switches (tactile action, so apart from the spring, there is a friction "bump" in the middle of the stroke).
Having used the regular model for years, I never liked the brown switches. I find the red ones much better since I hate any kind of friction in the keystroke and want the keystroke force be as low as possible. However this is subjective, many people love brown switches.

2) Click my sig if you want to sign up for a trial of a 20-year-old Kinesis Contoured with brown switches. It might take months to reach you though :-)

3) I'm a vi user, but use ctrl and alt often. The keyboard has a setting called PC/non-windows mode, that gives you 2 controls and 2 alts on each side of the keyboard (at the expense of squirreling away the Windows/Menu keys in the "keypad" layer). If you don't need the Windows key, this setting should work well for you.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 21:14:50 »

Don't listen to him. Quit school, your future job, any obligations you may have, find a cute girl, travel and meet people till you find the best place on earth and just live.

Really, you should listen to me. You know you want to.

bradpowers · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 21:29:39 »

The parrot.... It's so compelling.... Must resist.... Build... Robots...

To be honest input nirvana, I really do love what I do. In fact, if I quit all of my obligations, I'd still be building robots. As for finding a cute girl, travelling, and meeting people, yes, yes and yes!

Sordna, thanks for your input. The red switches seem like they would be my preference. I haven't used a mechanical keyboard like that before, nearly all of my experience has been with scissor switch keyboards, for example Apple's. I like that the Apple keyboard's keys require little force, but I hate the layout, as it seems to be causing my problems. It seems (based on reading a graph, and my impression of Apple's keys) that the red switches are my best bet. I am curious about audible feedback, I prefer my keyboards to be quiet.

I appreciate the offer of the try and forward, but I think that once I have sufficient information, I'd rather just purchase than wait months.

The PC/non-windows option does sound like my best bet. I think I'd remap a couple other things as well. For example, could I move parens () somewhere else, and not require the use of shift for them? I use those and brackets [] quite often.

Thanks for your help sordna and input nirvana!

sordna · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 21:55:06 »

The keyboard has an audible feedback from a piezo speaker, you can turn it off if you don't like it. As for the parens, you can move the 9 and 0 keys but you cannot avoid hitting the Shift to type parens. If you want to avoid shifting with your pinkies, you could remap the Home key and Page Up keys to work as shifts. Even better, this keyboard accepts footswitches. Any momentary footswitch that closes the circuit while pressed can be used and easily wired to the keyboard's footswitch (RJ) jack. In fact I use 2 footswitches, one to shift, the other to enter the keypad layer.

bradpowers · « **Reply #5 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 22:04:03 »

Too bad about not being able to move parens without moving 9 and 0. Not a dealbreaker. The idea about remapping shift sounds excellent though. Thanks again!

erw · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 22:17:41 »

You can always do the remapping in your OS.

I have moved |, \, and ~ to unshifted positions (none of those are on Danish keyboards) using xmodmap. If you're on Windows, AutoHotkey is even better.

I also recommend the LF version. It's softness is very good for fingers in pain, plus it's more quiet compared to the browns.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 19 January 2012, 23:45:07 »

I have always liked my Kinesis boards. I did not notice any reason why I would want a different switch other than browns. I thought I liked the tactile feel. Then came Sordna. What an ass. You see, I made the mistake of listening to him (I warned you earlier). He said this now famous line:"Go red Fred, red, red, RED! Brown is down!". So, like a good little minion, I followed his orders and did the deed by procuring red switch keywells for a couple of my Kinesis boards (I got a few of these bad boys), and promptly changed them out. Pretty nice stuff, I'll tell you. Smooth, silky, like typing on a cloud of bewbs (Sordna didn't tell me that part). I needed the audible click because after having only typed on tactile browns, I had virtually no reference point and was trying to force my fingertips directly to China the hard way (I live, work, party, eat, poop and kill in California, do the geography). So after initially freaking out and Sordna talking me off the ledge, a day or so later I was sliding along pretty well on these things, and after several days I was almost dialed in completely. Got tired of the click, I mean really...is it a hot girl click, or a disgusting street-creature click? I couldn't tell, so I shut the damn thing off. I went right back to giving Chairman Mao the finger. So this time it took a couple days to try and find the sweet spot again. I was in slippery bliss, I tell you, pure bliss. Not a care in the world. Then, one day, without warning, not so much as a peep, I was summoned to see the queen. "For why am I being summoned to see the queen?" I asked myself. No matter. I must go, so go I did. I grabbed a bottle of wine (in case I had to wait to see the queen), a toothbrush (hey, hygiene is where it's at, man), and a Kinesis board with brown switches (because it f-ing cool, that's why) and I hopped and skipped down the yellow brick road to see the queen. Along the way, I came upon a very sad little man. "What's up little dude?" I asked. "I'm lost and can't find my way." he lamented. "Well, I'm going to see the queen and you can tag along if you don't talk. You're kind of small and dirty and you really weird me out. Chop-chop little dude." So off we went to see the queen. As we approached the military complex, and the TSA did a body cavity search on little dude, I used the opportunity to slip away to see the queen. I hear she's quite the hottie. The last I saw of smelly, dirty little dude was the TSA shaking him upside down just because they could. Once in the gates and seated in the waiting que (glad I brought the wine), I used my Kinesis as a headrest. I was ball'in all the way. Pimp Daddy Nirvana tipping back the bottle, head on a Kinesis. Life was good. Finally, I was let in to see the queen. "This will be awesome." I thought to myself as I brushed my teeth (see, toothbrush...take notes here). I reclined with the queen at her World of Warcraft 70" LED terminal and gazed into her beautiful eyes. Things were really shaping up for me! She asked "Is that a Kinesis Advantage in your pants or are you very happy to see me?

<****>

Interrupted with an important phone call, and I don't remember where I was going with the story. I was going to get to the point that I really like both switches, and to this day I alternate every couple months, even though they are very different. I've found the people that love the reds wind up hating browns almost all saying they are 'gritty' feeling. And others that say they can't get used to no tactile feedback on the reds (it is a powerful feature of a mechanical switch). I strongly suggest you test the switch feel. The keyboards are fairly pricey and you need to compare them without buying/returning/shipping, etc.

P.S.- I apologize sincerely to Sordna for dragging his good name through the mud with my torrid tale, but he IS guilty of starting the whole red switch mess with Kinesis boards, so he needs to own it.

Quarzac · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 00:24:44 »

Quote from: input nirvana;494612

I have always liked my Kinesis boards. I did not notice any reason why I would want a different switch other than browns. I thought I liked the tactile feel. Then came Sordna. What an ass. You see, I made the mistake of listening to him (I warned you earlier). He said this now famous line:"Go red Fred, red, red, RED! Brown is down!". So, like a good little minion, I followed his orders and did the deed by procuring red switch keywells for a couple of my Kinesis boards (I got a few of these bad boys), and promptly changed them out. Pretty nice stuff, I'll tell you. Smooth, silky, like typing on a cloud of bewbs (Sordna didn't tell me that part). I needed the audible click because after having only typed on tactile browns, I had virtually no reference point and was trying to force my fingertips directly to China the hard way (I live, work, party, eat, poop and kill in California, do the geography). So after initially freaking out and Sordna talking me off the ledge, a day or so later I was sliding along pretty well on these things, and after several days I was almost dialed in completely. Got tired of the click, I mean really...is it a hot girl click, or a disgusting street-creature click? I couldn't tell, so I shut the damn thing off. I went right back to giving Chairman Mao the finger. So this time it took a couple days to try and find the sweet spot again. I was in slippery bliss, I tell you, pure bliss. Not a care in the world. Then, one day, without warning, not so much as a peep, I was summoned to see the queen. "For why am I being summoned to see the queen?" I asked myself. No matter. I must go, so go I did. I grabbed a bottle of wine (in case I had to wait to see the queen), a toothbrush (hey, hygiene is where it's at, man), and a Kinesis board with brown switches (because it f-ing cool, that's why) and I hopped and skipped down the yellow brick road to see the queen. Along the way, I came upon a very sad little man. "What's up little dude?" I asked. "I'm lost and can't find my way." he lamented. "Well, I'm going to see the queen and you can tag along if you don't talk. You're kind of small and dirty and you really weird me out. Chop-chop little dude." So off we went to see the queen. As we approached the military complex, and the TSA did a body cavity search on little dude, I used the opportunity to slip away to see the queen. I hear she's quite the hottie. The last I saw of smelly, dirty little dude was the TSA shaking him upside down just because they could. Once in the gates and seated in the waiting que (glad I brought the wine), I used my Kinesis as a headrest. I was ball'in all the way. Pimp Daddy Nirvana tipping back the bottle, head on a Kinesis. Life was good. Finally, I was let in to see the queen. "This will be awesome." I thought to myself as I brushed my teeth (see, toothbrush...take notes here). I reclined with the queen at her World of Warcraft 70" LED terminal and gazed into her beautiful eyes. Things were really shaping up for me! She asked "Is that a Kinesis Advantage in your pants or are you very happy to see me?

<****>

Interrupted with an important phone call, and I don't remember where I was going with the story. I was going to get to the point that I really like both switches, and to this day I alternate every couple months, even though they are very different. I've found the people that love the reds wind up hating browns almost all saying they are 'gritty' feeling. And others that say they can't get used to no tactile feedback on the reds (it is a powerful feature of a mechanical switch). I strongly suggest you test the switch feel. The keyboards are fairly pricey and you need to compare them without buying/returning/shipping, etc.

P.S.- I apologize sincerely to Sordna for dragging his good name through the mud with my torrid tale, but he IS guilty of starting the whole red switch mess with Kinesis boards, so he needs to own it.

What the...
I enjoyed some of the imagery in the story. Especially the part about Pimp Daddy Nirvana. I could see it. Further fortified my intentions to at the very least try a Kinesis.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 00:53:40 »

Yea, I got problems, fa sho.

Ran out of meds, but it's ok, I'll just double the dose tomorrow and today will never have happened.

boli · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 03:36:01 »

1) LF or not: I prefer the reds, even though they don't provide tactile feedback, which I thought would be a clear negative point - I don't like touchscreen keyboards for this reason (obviously not feeling the keys is a whole lot worse than "just" not feeling the activation point). However, for me personally the lesser activation force needed makes up for it. I do have the piezo click activated.
BTW I was a fan of the Apple aluminum keyboard before switching to the Kinesis. Note that the key travel is very long on the Kinesis compared to the Apple aluminum keyboard, this will take some getting used to. I think I'd really like a kinesis keyboard with short key travel, but as it doesn't exist the red switches are a step in the right direction.

2) My spare Kinesis is being handed around the office, so not really available ATM, but since I'm in Switzerland shipping would be on the expensive and annoying (papers for customs, ugh) side anyway.

3) Kinesis Advantage / Emacs Mapping Suggestions (wanted) (thread from a couple days ago). Check it out, it contains many layout ideas.

Icarium · « **Reply #11 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 03:43:18 »

Ah, yes touchscreen. Thought about this last night, has anybody tried making some sort of rubber overlay for an ipad or old ipod? The idea being that you would know where your fingers are by using little nobs or maybe even cutting little keyshaped square holes in something...

boli · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 03:47:59 »

I can't imagine any way to really fix touchscreen keyboards. After all you can't even rest your fingers on the damn keys. Also while I do like short key travel, I don't like no key travel. Anyway, gotta go to work, so enough rambling by me for now.

Architect · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 04:43:00 »

Ah, robotics, grad student, basically a programmer, on the computer all day, sounds like me at 23 (and here I am at 45 doing the same thing).

The Kinesis is a good choice, I'd recommend the Advantage Pro because of the better paint and greater durability. Never mind the cost, it's worth it for your health and career (think of it this way, you'd not get a job if you couldn't type.) For general programming I'd actually recommend the new TrulyErgonomic 109 (Asian) model, you have a better set of modifier keys (three in two blocks instead of two in two blocks) and you can do what I did and put the bracket keys ([]{}()) on their own set of keys. But you're using Emacs ... yes I had Emacs pinky - back in the day when Emacs was the only thing in town!

If you absolutely have to use Emacs then the Kinesis is good (at least on Linux) because of the thumb control and arrows on the pointers. Or, you would probably be be better served by getting the TE and using the close at hand arrow keys for navigation. For programming the TE winds hands down IMO.

On editing I'd actually recommend Sublime Text 2 instead, which supports Emacs bindings but learn a different set of bindings.

TopazPie · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 04:56:12 »

Quote from: input nirvana;494612

...Pimp Daddy Nirvana tipping back the bottle, head on a Kinesis. Life was good. Finally, I was let in to see the queen...

I'm starting to think it was input nirvana that broke geekhack and not kl or ripster...

bradpowers · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 07:48:48 »

erw - Good call about remapping with xmodmap. I'll poke at that a bit.

input nirvana - ummmm. Thank you for the info about switches, and the queen thing...

boli - It really does boil down to needing to try both switches. I completely agree. As for the travel length, I think that's fine, I use an Apple keyboard because there was one sitting near my desk unused the day I got there. I've been using it since. I think I'm leaning toward red switches based on what I've heard here, although I'm going to try to arrange for a test somehow. Switzerland shipping would be absurd, but thank you for the consideration. That thread on emacs mappings looks good, although I'm not convinced by moving the ctrl and alt keys to the arrows. Not because I use the arrows, but because it seems like I might not hit those keys with my thumb, and I use them rather frequently.

Architect - I'm not so concerned about the cost of the Kinesis. If it is going to last a long time (which I'm convinced it will) and keep me from losing my ability to type (which I think it's certainly an excellent option) then I think it's a no-brainer, $300 or no. As for the Truly Ergonomic keyboard, it looks ok, but I'm not crazy about the layout. As for switching from emacs, I suppose I could, although it is tightly integrated in my workflow. I can be coding along.... C-x C-r l and my code is running on the robot, where I can verify functionality. C-x C-g p and my code is pushed to the lab git repository. Furthermore, I check my email, use google chat, and browse online documentation. When any of my robots boots, it automatically pulls changes to my emacs configuration, and interacting with the robot (without a GUI, mind you) is seamless. So yes, I'd say I'm pretty well stuck with emacs. As for arrow keys, I don't use them at all, emacs provides different bindings for navigation.

Thanks everybody for the advice, and the... story...

I think the next step for me is to locate keyboards with brown and red switches and try them out so I can make an educated decision about the Kinesis.

Thanks!
Bradley Powers

sordna · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 09:56:29 »

If you want to shorten key travel on cherry switches, it's very easy by installing o-rings in the keycaps:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:25612

If you do, you almost certainly will be better off with the LF model. IMO you can't go wrong with the red switches, for this shape of keyboard, the lesser key force fits it very well. I like tactile switches on flat keyboards, but linears suit the Kinesis better in my experience.

Regarding the Pro model, it doesn't come with red switches, although you could try asking them to make you a Pro LF, they might be willing to. But I'm not worried about durability, here's a regular unpainted keyboard that was HEAVILY useed/abused for 20 years:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38035[/ATTACH]

The area where hands rest gets dirty over time, but it's easy to clean.

moogatronic · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 11:34:45 »

I am a graduate student as well (In Networks/Complexity) and also spend nearly all my time on the computer (former software developer, etc, still writing lots of code)

I had a lot of wrist pain in my mousing rist, as well as right shoulder and elbow pains.

Without any hesitation, I would recommend the Kinesis Advantage. I have one with brown switches, so I can't comment on it vis-a-vis the red/LF switches. Pretty much my entire day is spent in Emacs, whether it be org-mode and paper writing, programming either Python or Clojure, or just general note taking. There are a lot of opinions on keybindings for emacs, I've found something that works nearly optimally for me. The issue of brackets and braces disappears after a while, and the arrow keys become quite nice as they are in the default locations. The usability (once adapted) is nothing short of a revelation for me.

I've noticed a few things that seem to effect my pain, but keep in mind that I'm about a decade older than you (meaning, you are likely to exhibit more resilience to damage)!

1. If you have a bad chair or desk setup, consider converting it to a standing setup. You tend to move around and fidget more while standing, which necessarily keeps more blood flowing, and postures changing. It's essential that you raise your monitor to the appropriate level though, and keep your keyboard at a good level. I recently used a two tiered musical keyboard stand to accomplish this at home. Also, I don't advocate standing full time, I am typically doing about 70% standing (dancing, moving) 30% sitting.

2. (probably the most important) Exercise. Specifically, if I go off my routine which includes resistance training, my shoulder starts to eventually hurt more. I do basic things like bench press, overhead press, power clean. Moderate exercise means that I am nearly pain free.

Before landing on the Kinesis, I wasted money on two MSFT natural 4ks. The advice of the non-GH internet seemed to indicate that these boards were nice and ergonomic. Lies. All Lies. These boards were worse than typing on my mac aluminum flat keyboard. The force required to hit emacs pinky oriented control sequences was ridiculous. Whatever you end up with, make sure it has mechanical switches.

Quote from: bradpowers;494466

Hello,

I've been lurking around the forum for a while now, absorbing as much information as I could. I'm a graduate student in robotics (basically a programmer) which means that I'm at a computer 12-14 hours a day. I've been beginning to feel cramps and mild pain in my hands, wrists, and occasionally shoulders, which has prompted me to start looking into fixing my work environment. Sadly, I'm also a graduate student, so that started with free things such as a timer to remind me to take breaks, as well as remapping caps lock as a control key, and others. That said, I'm starting my career with a job in February. Because of the amount of typing I do, and the fact that I'm beginning to feel pain at the ripe old age of 23, I want to try a more ergonomic keyboard. After much research, it appears that a Kinesis Advantage may be quite excellent, as it remaps the (frequently used) keys normally on the finger with the most pain (the pinky) to one with none (the thumb). They don't call it emacs pinky for nothing!

Now that you know my situation, I have a couple of questions.

1) I've seen talk of a Kinesis Advantage LF. If I were going to pay for a keyboard such as the Kinesis, I want it to be perfect. Should I go for the LF or the regular version?

2) Is there anyone in the Philadelphia or Boston areas with a spare Kinesis I could try for a week or so?

3) Has anyone found compelling keymaps for an emacs user? I'll be relying heavily on ctrl and alt, so perhaps putting ctrl on the left thumb and alt on the right would be optimal?

I'll post more questions if I think of any.

Thanks,
Bradley Powers

moogatronic · « **Reply #18 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 11:39:39 »

Quote from: Architect;494719

On editing I'd actually recommend Sublime Text 2 instead, which supports Emacs bindings but learn a different set of bindings.

He, like me, may value the embedded programmability of Emacs, which are especially useful if you work with LISP dialects (I do a lot of Clojure programming). Also, Sublime Text 2 does not have org-mode!

To be on topic: I did get an email today indicating that some TE's were again available for purchase. Now i'm sort of in love with the idea of that ergo dox keyboard instead, and I've grown quite attached and accustomed to my Kinesis already.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 13:53:00 »

bradpowers: You're young enough that I'm hoping you will make stuff like "I Robot" and "Bicentenial Man" verses "Warning! Warning Will Robinson!"
Just a little friendly advice

Regarding the switches, do yourself the favor and try both, even for only the experience. Information is power! Everything here boils down to opinions, and this is a very important decision. You may want to click on my sig for too much info about Kinesis keyboards past and present, and there are a lot of links for additional info as well.

In a nutshell:
Advantage vs Advantage Pro- The Pro model has 2 memory chips instead of 1 so you can have more/longer macros, has a concealed switch to prevent accidental re-programming, and has space-age silver paint. It also comes with a single foot switch. You can upgrade the Advantage memory to an Advantage Pro by adding the plug in chip yourself.

Red linear vs brown tactile ergonomic- Both switches use the same spring so they both have the same force applied (EDIT--) AFTER the tactile feedback bump is passed on the brown.

See:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38088[/ATTACH]

O-rings- Are AWESOME! There are several sizes and several softness levels, but any O-riing will get you 90% of the way there.

Where are you located? I have keyboards with both switches you can try...

Architect: The paint, do any of the boards have any scratching? I've never seen any scratched up and I'm curious since you have a couple with heavy use for years you're a good test guinea pig.

Must be industrial paint applied overseas where that stuff is legal.

sordna · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 14:00:16 »

Quote from: input nirvana;495025

Red linear vs brown tactile- Both switches use the same spring so they both have the same force applied.

Not quite. This "bump" of the browns needs about 55g to overcome, see the force graphs on the cherry wiki. Once you are past the bump, at the activation point, you're are facing pure spring resistance at 45g on both switches, but your fingers do have to do the extra work to go over the bump first. 45g to 55g is 20% more, not insignificant by any means.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 14:40:06 »

Corrected

bradpowers · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 15:28:01 »

Sordna - The o-rings sound like an excellent modification. I'll definitely order a pack of those, they seem like too good of a modification to pass up. For what it's worth, I also found another company offering o-ring like things called soft-landing pads: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,slpads. I'll just be doing o-rings, it seems like a proven mod. Also, I asked about a Pro LF, and the person I talked to said they don't exist. I asked if it could be done, and haven't gotten a response yet. That said, the paint isn't a dealbreaker, nor are the footswitches. Assuming I can find the right part to order, a different memory chip shouldn't be too hard.

moogatronic - Good to know there's someone in a very similar situation to me. I appreciate the recommendation for the Kinesis. I'm also nearly 100% in emacs, to the point that I am equally comfortable on a headless computer on a robot as on my desktop. I'm also a big fan of org-mode. As for keybdindings, I'm continually working on it, but having Control and Alt on the thumbs instead of the pinkies is optimal. As for arrow keys, I don't really use them at all, between the search functionality and the C-n, C-p, C-f... bindings, I've pretty well weaned myself from the arrow keys. As for the desk/chair setup, I'm definitely in a suboptimal situation. My desk is at a great height for me, as I added about 5 centimeters worth of rise to a standard desk, as I'm a little over 2 meters tall. The chair situation is a mess, but given that I'm moving in less than a month (woo!) I'm not inclined to fix it at the moment. As for exercise, I definitely would like the ability to do that more effectively, I don't have affordable access to a gym, nor the space for my own equipment. All that will be changing in a month or so.

To your note about emacs' programmability, you're absolutely on point. I've poked at Sublime Text, and it's missing many of the features that I consider critical. At this point, the ability to compile, run unit tests, and run my code on any robot in the building with fewer than 5 keystrokes is mission critical. I might be half as effective without.

input nirvana - I definitely focus on positive applications of robotics, my current project is intended for assisting firefighters in rescuing people from burning buildings. I'll do what I can about testing MX Browns and Reds, as it is an important decision. As for the difference between the Advantage and the Pro, it seems I would be fine with either. I'd appreciate a link or part number for the memory chip.

I'm currently in Philadelphia, and moving to Boston in February. If you're close, that would be awesome.

Thanks again for your help everyone!

sordna · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 15:38:33 »

You don't need the extra memory chip for remapping keys, only for lots and lots of macros. The regular Advantage supports 28 - 56 macros (deppending on the settings you choose), the Pro has double those amounts. I never had the need for more than 1 or 2 macros, even the low setting of 28 on the standard model would be way too many for me to remember.

sordna · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 15:41:23 »

Quote from: input nirvana;495062

Corrected

Hmm, the force diagrams you added doesn't include red switches, the linear diagram is for the heavier black switches; here's the one for the reds, from the wiki:

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 15:43:02 »

You would get the memory chip from Kinesis, they sell them.

hoggy · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 16:04:36 »

BradPowers, Don't forget to consider your next purchase too! (Since you didn't listen to the parrot...) I hope you like the kinesis - I love mine.

Icarium, I'm sure I've seen rubber overlays for touch pads on kickstarter - search for touchfire.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #27 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 16:31:42 »

Quote from: sordna;495109

Hmm, the force diagrams you added doesn't include red switches, the linear diagram is for the heavier black switches; here's the one for the reds, from the wiki:

Show Image

Dang Cherry Corp. not including the reds force diagram! Is it the red-headed stepchild thing?

Do I gotto double check their work too?

bradpowers · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 16:40:08 »

Quote from: hoggy;495121

BradPowers, Don't forget to consider your next purchase too! (Since you didn't listen to the parrot...) I hope you like the kinesis - I love mine.

I'm not entirely sure I follow... In fact, I don't follow.

Lanx · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 17:03:41 »

i think input nirvana's avatar is a parrot (i don't remember i have avatars and sigs blocked).

bradpowers · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 17:29:55 »

I got that, I just don't know what "Don't forget to remember your next purchase too!" means.

Architect · « **Reply #31 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 18:18:14 »

Quote from: input nirvana;495025

Architect: The paint, do any of the boards have any scratching? I've never seen any scratched up and I'm curious since you have a couple with heavy use for years you're a good test guinea pig. Must be industrial paint applied overseas where that stuff is legal.

I don't have any used, sorry

I'm thinking of the (now don't cry) scores of Kinesis (ok less than 10) that I threw in the garbage when a dept. shut down. I was looking for some used stuff to score, should have grabbed these but there was, to me, bad juju with taking the keyboard of a laid off engineer. And they each were so dirty and worn I didn't want the cooties.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 19:27:24 »

I've seen and read about the NASTIES that can be on keyboards. It's very interesting and quite sobering to think about before using one that is not yours. More gross than airplane toilets...can you believe that???

Sometimes the juice just ain't worth the squeeze, baby.

Architect · « **Reply #33 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 20:21:49 »

Quote from: input nirvana;495248

I've seen and read about the NASTIES that can be on keyboards. It's very interesting and quite sobering to think about before using one that is not yours. More gross than airplane toilets...can you believe that???

Sometimes the juice just ain't worth the squeeze, baby.

Actually MythBusters - of course - checked this one out. Conscripted a bunch of bio students from UC Berkeley to run around and take swabs. Anyhow, the kitchen sponge turned out by far to be the worst offender. Door knobs, phones and keyboards weren't that bad. I meant cooties metaphorically, I have a policy of not using equipment from engineers I used to work with.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #34 on:** Fri, 20 January 2012, 22:31:25 »

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Mythbusters? Those sage of sages? I'm not convinced. I'll follow my own instincts rather than trust a couple of gay entertainers with very, very bad hair.

I guess I can understand not using certain peoples equipment, mostly if I just didn't care for them. How bourgeoisie, eh?

hoggy · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 01:02:18 »

Quote from: Architect;495210

I don't have any used, sorry I'm thinking of the (now don't cry) scores of Kinesis (ok less than 10) that I threw in the garbage when a dept. shut down. I was looking for some used stuff to score, should have grabbed these but there was, to me, bad juju with taking the keyboard of a laid off engineer. And they each were so dirty and worn I didn't want the cooties.

Anyone who uses a dirty keyboard all the time doesn't mind the dirt (assuming it's their dirt). You could have offered the boards to their previous owners. I'm sure they would have appreciated it.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 01:30:51 »

A severance Kinesis...very cool. lol

hoggy · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 01:44:35 »

Quote from: bradpowers;495180

I got that, I just don't know what "Don't forget to remember your next purchase too!" means.

I was suggesting that you might want to start looking for the keyboard you'll get afterwards - most of us started this way, looking for one keyboard.

To be fair, I worded it incredibly badly.

boli · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 04:23:25 »

Quote from: hoggy;495373

I was suggesting that you might want to start looking for the keyboard you'll get afterwards - most of us started this way, looking for one keyboard.

Good point, be warned BradPowers.

It didn't take me long to order a second Advantage to have one at work and one at home. Later I ordered a TrulyErgonomic to check it out. Then I got a third Advantage, LF model this time, liked it, and ordered red key wells for one of my non-LF Advantages. And recently found out about the ErgoDox...

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 04:27:55 »

Quote from: boli;495438

Good point, be warned BradPowers. It didn't take me long to order a second Advantage to have one at work and one at home. Later I ordered a TrulyErgonomic to check it out. Then I got a third Advantage, LF model this time, liked it, and ordered red key wells for one of my non-LF Advantages. And recently found out about the ErgoDox...

boli: It's been nice know'in ya. The little woman in your life will kill you soon unless she's a GH'er too.

P.S.- Don't worry, I'll spread your ashes in a spectacular setting.

bradpowers · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 08:02:58 »

TWO KEYBOARDS?!?!?! Crap.

hoggy · « **Reply #41 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 09:08:53 »

Two?

I've got over 50...

sordna · « **Reply #42 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 10:03:39 »

Where do you store them? I would loose count with so many. I only have about 14 :-) But my 2 LF's are the ones seeing most of the use.

boli · « **Reply #43 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 11:39:07 »

Quote from: input nirvana;495440

boli: It's been nice know'in ya. The little woman in your life will kill you soon unless she's a GH'er too.

P.S.- Don't worry, I'll spread your ashes in a spectacular setting.

Thanks but there's no need as there's no "little woman" in my life ATM.

Quote from: bradpowers;495485

TWO KEYBOARDS?!?!?! Crap.

Two is only just the beginning, see example hoggy.

BTW you can find erw's Kinesis Advantage love story in the Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis thread at the Colemak forum. There's the pre-ownership period, the first use, the after 6 weeks experiences as well as my personal favorite: the after 6 months stage.

sordna · « **Reply #44 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 12:07:52 »

I took a look at that thread and saw this: "You cannot move (remap) the keypad mode activation key"

Actually, it so happened that yesterday I discovered that you CAN map any key to keypad activation! It's in the manual. You need a footswitch (temporarily) to do the mapping. Basically, you enter remap mode, then you hit the footswitch (momentary keypad activation) then you hit the destination key you want to make a keypad toggle key! Unlike the footswitch, the new keypad key won't be momentary, it will be a toggle (works like the regular one however without the buzz sound) but still it's very welcome to be able to have it on any location! You need to repeat this mapping in the keypad layer as well, so you can toggle back to the regular layer with the same key.

hoggy · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 12:46:09 »

Quote from: sordna;495547

Where do you store them? I would loose count with so many. I only have about 14 :-) But my 2 LF's are the ones seeing most of the use.

14 is still way above average! Plus you've got some great pieces there!

Luckily we have a spare bedroom. I keep around 7 or 8 at work which helps.
I scavenge keyboard shaped boxes whenever I can - wouldn't stack keyboards on top of another if they weren't boxed.... I also label the boxes otherwise I'd never find anything. Some of the other members make 50 look like small change, so I guess my gf should think herself lucky...

Architect · « **Reply #46 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 17:09:49 »

Quote from: hoggy;495356

Anyone who uses a dirty keyboard all the time doesn't mind the dirt (assuming it's their dirt). You could have offered the boards to their previous owners. I'm sure they would have appreciated it.

The company policy is that they don't take anything with them and they got a GENEROUS package (nine months pay plus bonuses), I'm sure they didn't mind leaving it. Probably wanted to leave it behind anyhow (people never expect to get laid off)

input nirvana - yeah that looks like many a 'board I've seen, after an engineer has abused it for, say, a decade.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #47 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 17:16:12 »

Quote from: Architect;495801

The company policy is that they don't take anything with them and they got a GENEROUS package (nine months pay plus bonuses), I'm sure they didn't mind leaving it. Probably wanted to leave it behind anyhow (people never expect to get laid off)

input nirvana - yeah that looks like many a 'board I've seen, after an engineer has abused it for, say, a decade.

Macs deserve better.

Companies have to have those policies to reduce theft, complicated situations, he said-she said, and the like. You work a day, you get paid a day, you're not part owner, there is no obligation, etc. If everyone is happy, we do it again tomorrow. I've been an employer for $10 p/h people to $175 p/h people as well as salary. Same issues across the board.

Architect · « **Reply #48 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 18:04:51 »

I think it's mainly a liability issue, we can take obsolete equipment but have to sign a waiver, and they have a yearly charity auction for old stuff with same. Oh - and a tax issue. Well I guess the stuff people would want was all expensed anyhow so that doesn't apply.

Regarding theft, I walk out regularly with equipment that would buy you a house or two in Southern California. I fill out the paperwork (never get asked for it), but as my boss said the paperwork is really for my protection (in case it gets damaged in my possession), not theirs.

erw · « **Reply #49 on:** Sat, 21 January 2012, 20:49:26 »

Quote from: input nirvana;494612

...queen...

Epic rant :-)

Quote from: boli;495598

BTW you can find erw's Kinesis Advantage love story in the Non-staggered keys AKA matrix or grid layout, especially the Kinesis thread at the Colemak forum. There's the pre-ownership period, the first use, the after 6 weeks experiences as well as my personal favorite: the after 6 months stage.

Haha.. yeah :-)

Quote from: sordna;495610

You need to repeat this mapping in the keypad layer as well, so you can toggle back to the regular layer with the same key.

So this was the magic step. I have mapped the pedal to a key before, but it would only get me into embedded mode, not out! Anyway I just tried to do it with a macro, but it doesn't work. I tried Progrm+Macro, AltGr++, Pedal, and Progrm+Macro (where AltGr++ is AltGr and plus, not the key following AltGr :-P ). Both pressing+releasing the pedal and pressing and holding the pedal result in the keypad LED flashing very briefly when triggering the macro.
I'd sure like to use part of a key as toggle switch, but I don't have a whole key to sacrifice :-/

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