Who needs NKRO?

[burli]

Really serious question: who needs NKRO? And for what? Sounds for me like marketing. Is there any use case that needs NKRO?

[KRKS]

Rhythm game players for chords. And it's not as much NKRO as "every possible combination of keybinds including all of them", but proper NKRO lets you pick a more comfortable playing position.

[burli]

… but proper NKRO lets you pick a more comfortable playing position.

how so?

[chyros]

I've only ever found two reasons for them, both related to gaming; playing Marshmallow Duel with two people (on the same keyboard), and Surgeon Simulator (so you can actually use all fingers at once). Other than that, I have never needed NKRO.

Some 2KRO systems aren't very good though. Down+forward+enter is blocked on my KB-5981 which makes playing OMF 2097 quite hard, for example.

I've never really felt I genuinely needed NKRO though. In fact once or twice while playing it's actually hindered me.

[KRKS]

… but proper NKRO lets you pick a more comfortable playing position.

how so?

Real life example: I know a guy that used to play 7key(mainly O2Jam) with WERSpaceIOP, but after getting an NKRO board he switched to 45TSpaceU89 because he found it more comfortable. On his old board trying to play with that layout made any 4-chord or even some 3-chords drop a key which resulted in unpressed notes.

[Connly33]

It's USUALLY just marketing, but it is feature i like to have for some games, at least on some of my wireless keyboards it will fail to register more than a few key combinations at once, which really used to mess me up.

[gain]

Some keyboards these days are 6KRO which is more than enough unless you play certain rhythm games on keyboard instead of using the actual controller(s) for whatever reason (or you like o2jam style charts for some strange reason and play osumania)

It has come in handy for me once and that was when I tried to play a IIDX simulator with a keyboard for curiosity, thus requiring to press up to 8 keys at once. Since modifiers aren't counted (in this case I was using shift as well), I technically don't even need NKRO, 6KRO is more than enough should I ever ditch the controller

[burli]

I still think, many people mix up NKRO and Anti Ghosting.

[gain]

To be honest I'm not sure myself as there seems to be multiple definitions of it.

My understanding of ghosting is when you hit multiple keys and a completely different key will register. I think these days it's been lumped into NKRO.

[KRKS]

Some keyboards these days are 6KRO which is more than enough unless you play certain rhythm games on keyboard instead of using the actual controller(s) for whatever reason (or you like o2jam style charts for some strange reason and play osumania)

Or play actual O2J on a private server instead of watered down osu experience 

It has come in handy for me once and that was when I tried to play a IIDX simulator with a keyboard for curiosity, thus requiring to press up to 8 keys at once. Since modifiers aren't counted (in this case I was using shift as well), I technically don't even need NKRO, 6KRO is more than enough should I ever ditch the controller

Let me tell you something from my own and also other people's experience: scratching with Shift or Tab is better at giving you the "Emacs pinky" than actual Emacs. A nice layout that prevents that is SDFJKL: with A and Space as scratches(assuming you play Player 1 side), and I've seen it as high as Kaiden. Also both 0133 and ABCD don't scratch with them either(0133 plays SDFSpaceJKL with A and : as scratches and ABCD plays SDFSpaceAltP{ with } as only scratch).

I still think, many people mix up NKRO and Anti Ghosting.

That's mostly because they're misused in adverts.

[burli]

Even if you play music on your keyboard you rarely need more than 6 keys. Normaly you play the cords with your left hand and the melody with your right. The cords have three, rarely four notes and the melody has rarely more than two notes.

So if you have perfect anti ghosting you should be able to play most of the songs of these games. But it depends how you play. If you hit notes before releasing another you may run into the 6 key limits. Or if you play classic music. Modern Pop music mostly has simple cords and melodies

[KRKS]

Even if you play music on your keyboard you rarely need more than 6 keys. Normaly you play the cords with your left hand and the melody with your right. The cords have three, rarely four notes and the melody has rarely more than two notes.

So if you have perfect anti ghosting you should be able to play most of the songs of these games. But it depends how you play. If you hit notes before releasing another you may run into the 6 key limits. Or if you play classic music. Modern Pop music mostly has simple cords and melodies

You have no idea what we're talking about, do you?

[burli]

You have no idea what we're talking about, do you?

enlighten me

[burli]

Or play actual O2J on a private server instead of watered down osu experience 

If you mean this, no, I have no idea why you need NKRO for Objective-C to Java translation \ironyoff

[gain]

Sorry I should've linked an example of what I was referring to in my post (and what KRKS was referring to).

Although most people just play one side instead of both, an application of NKRO as far as gaming goes would apply to this..

That's probably as bad as it gets, but I'm sure you can see how it helps in this particular, awfully specific scenario

For what it's worth I know of at least one player who plays like this, but uses two keyboards as opposed to relying on NKRO. It may be for comfort reasons however, I do not know.

[frogthejam19]

I think it's pretty much for Gamers and a gimmick to sucker in people who don't know much about keyboards or don't do their research.

[davkol]

First of all, keyboards generally have either 2KRO (with a more or less optimized matrix), or NKRO (sometimes artificially limited to 6KRO for backward compatibility). Of course I will always prefer properly implemented NKRO, because it's cleaner and more elegant. There's no reason whatsoever not to have proper NKRO, provided there's a 6KRO compatibility mode present. Other than cutting costs or crippling the product to support sales of something else with higher margins, obviously.

Now, who actually needs chords with more than two keys + modifiers?

• Whoever wants to use steno on a "normal" keyboard (e.g., Plover).
• Whoever mashes buttons fast enough to get more accidental parallel keystrokes.
• Whoever emulates musical instruments on a "normal" keyboard. Rhythm games aside, I've seen people use desktop keyboards instead of MIDI controllers quite a few times.
• Some silly (often drunk) dudes playing arcade games in four people on a single keyboard.
• Power users, that use some custom keymap with non-modifier keys used as modifiers.

[burli]

Thx for clarification, gain. That's a little bit crazy. But just a little bit 

@davkol: steno is a good point

[Vittra]

First of all, keyboards generally have either 2KRO (with a more or less optimized matrix), or NKRO (sometimes artificially limited to 6KRO for backward compatibility). Of course I will always prefer properly implemented NKRO, because it's cleaner and more elegant. There's no reason whatsoever not to have proper NKRO, provided there's a 6KRO compatibility mode present. Other than cutting costs or crippling the product to support sales of something else with higher margins, obviously.

Now, who actually needs chords with more than two keys + modifiers?

• Whoever wants to use steno on a "normal" keyboard (e.g., Plover).
• Whoever mashes buttons fast enough to get more accidental parallel keystrokes.
• Whoever emulates musical instruments on a "normal" keyboard. Rhythm games aside, I've seen people use desktop keyboards instead of MIDI controllers quite a few times.
• Some silly (often drunk) dudes playing arcade games in four people on a single keyboard.
• Power users, that use some custom keymap with non-modifier keys used as modifiers.

First of all, keyboards generally have either 2KRO (with a more or less optimized matrix), or NKRO (sometimes artificially limited to 6KRO for backward compatibility). Of course I will always prefer properly implemented NKRO, because it's cleaner and more elegant. There's no reason whatsoever not to have proper NKRO, provided there's a 6KRO compatibility mode present. Other than cutting costs or crippling the product to support sales of something else with higher margins, obviously.

Now, who actually needs chords with more than two keys + modifiers?

• Whoever wants to use steno on a "normal" keyboard (e.g., Plover).
• Whoever mashes buttons fast enough to get more accidental parallel keystrokes.
• Whoever emulates musical instruments on a "normal" keyboard. Rhythm games aside, I've seen people use desktop keyboards instead of MIDI controllers quite a few times.
• Some silly (often drunk) dudes playing arcade games in four people on a single keyboard.
• Power users, that use some custom keymap with non-modifier keys used as modifiers.

Have things changed significantly in the past few years? For USB 2.0, I recall boards such as the Noppoo Choc Mini required the driver to present the keyboard as several separate entities to the Windows OS to allow all key presses to register, otherwise the limitations would still be 6KRO through the USB 2.0 protocol. This posed an issue in alternative OSes that could not view the separate entities as a single keyboard and would end in a non-functional KB. Perhaps that's what your 6KRO backward compatibility reference is in regards to

I suppose this may have changed with newer operating systems, along with USB 3.0 (AKA 3.1 Gen1) and USB 3.1 Gen 2 implementations offering more broad support, but it's not something I've looked into. I haven't seen anything thus far that KB makers are making proper use of xhci for the newer USB protocols.

[Malcolm]

Really serious question: who needs NKRO? And for what? Sounds for me like marketing. Is there any use case that needs NKRO?

Most people won't need it, but it's definitely not useless.  Basically the only time it's useful is for gaming or computer programmers who press a ton of key combinations.

Have things changed significantly in the past few years? For USB 2.0, I recall boards such as the Noppoo Choc Mini required the driver to present the keyboard as several separate entities to the Windows OS to allow all key presses to register, otherwise the limitations would still be 6KRO through the USB 2.0 protocol. This posed an issue in alternative OSes that could not view the separate entities as a single keyboard and would end in a non-functional KB. Perhaps that's what your 6KRO backward compatibility reference is in regards to

I suppose this may have changed with newer operating systems, along with USB 3.0 (AKA 3.1 Gen1) and USB 3.1 Gen 2 implementations offering more broad support, but it's not something I've looked into. I haven't seen anything thus far that KB makers are making proper use of xhci for the newer USB protocols.

I've seen a few full USB 3.0 keyboards with full NKRO support, but it's definitely not a priority on many peoples list.  Especially when you could just use a USB to PS2 adapter for full NKRO.

[davkol]

Have things changed significantly in the past few years? For USB 2.0, I recall boards such as the Noppoo Choc Mini required the driver to present the keyboard as several separate entities to the Windows OS to allow all key presses to register, otherwise the limitations would still be 6KRO through the USB 2.0 protocol. This posed an issue in alternative OSes that could not view the separate entities as a single keyboard and would end in a non-functional KB. Perhaps that's what your 6KRO backward compatibility reference is in regards to

I suppose this may have changed with newer operating systems, along with USB 3.0 (AKA 3.1 Gen1) and USB 3.1 Gen 2 implementations offering more broad support, but it's not something I've looked into. I haven't seen anything thus far that KB makers are making proper use of xhci for the newer USB protocols.

Noppoo Choc Mini showed up as multiple devices, because of backward compatibility with the slowest USB class IIRC. The multi-device approach was an issue on OS X, where it required a modification of the respective driver.

Other keyboards (including MS SideWinder X4 or some CM Storm QF keyboards) are limited to "full-speed" USB or faster and have compatibility problems with some BIOS implementations.

Especially when you could just use a USB to PS2 adapter for full NKRO.

It doesn't work like that.

[Malcolm]

Especially when you could just use a USB to PS2 adapter for full NKRO.

It doesn't work like that.

Didn't know this, thanks!  I looked it up to see what you meant because I've never had to use an adapter before.  For some reason I always thought the NKRO from the ps2 would just transfer to the USB.  My bad.

[Siegx]

Sorry I should've linked an example of what I was referring to in my post (and what KRKS was referring to).

Although most people just play one side instead of both, an application of NKRO as far as gaming goes would apply to this..

That's probably as bad as it gets, but I'm sure you can see how it helps in this particular, awfully specific scenario

For what it's worth I know of at least one player who plays like this, but uses two keyboards as opposed to relying on NKRO. It may be for comfort reasons however, I do not know.

Can't believe he's playing with that silicone dust protector.

[Bucake]

before i had a controller, i couldn't properly play DMC4 on my PC with 6KRO.
movement + weapon control can be too much for 6KRO because it includes stuff like weapon switching, charging weapons (holding a key down), jumping, dodging, using/switching skills etc. if you have to do well and you're spamming a lot of keys then you will eventually hit the keyboard's limit.
keys not registering can be very punishing, and it just sucks in general (expecting something to happen when you press a key, and nothing happens).

two thumbs up for hasu's TMK USB NKRO and soarer's converter with NKRO support

[E3E]

I just bought a Leading Edge DC-3014 for my NKRO fix that I've been wanting on a blue Alps board, a vintage blue Alps board, that is.

To be honest, it's nice to have, but at the end of the day, unless you are really pushing the KRO to its limits because of gaming or editing programs or something, then you don't really need it. I love typing on my Monterey K101 w/ blue Alps even though it has 2KRO and blocking.

My FAME board is the funnest one, it has no blocking and no diodes, so it has ghosting on certain combinations. You can type "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" while holding both shifts just fine, but it comes out something like, "THE~ QUICKM BROWN~ FOX~ JUMPSM OVER~ THE LAZYM DOGM" just random Ms and tildes lol.

Fantastic boards though. You definitely don't need NKRO. I've used the FAME for gaming quite a few times!

[E3E]

I've only ever found two reasons for them, both related to gaming; playing Marshmallow Duel with two people (on the same keyboard), and Surgeon Simulator (so you can actually use all fingers at once). Other than that, I have never needed NKRO.

Some 2KRO systems aren't very good though. Down+forward+enter is blocked on my KB-5981 which makes playing OMF 2097 quite hard, for example.

I've never really felt I genuinely needed NKRO though. In fact once or twice while playing it's actually hindered me.

How did it hinder you when you tried using an NKRO board, Chyros?

[chyros]

I've only ever found two reasons for them, both related to gaming; playing Marshmallow Duel with two people (on the same keyboard), and Surgeon Simulator (so you can actually use all fingers at once). Other than that, I have never needed NKRO.

Some 2KRO systems aren't very good though. Down+forward+enter is blocked on my KB-5981 which makes playing OMF 2097 quite hard, for example.

I've never really felt I genuinely needed NKRO though. In fact once or twice while playing it's actually hindered me.

How did it hinder you when you tried using an NKRO board, Chyros?

Accidental keypresses register. For example, when using the BTC I noticed that if I was walking diagonally, say forward and left, sometimes the weight of my finger would accidentally press right as well. Normally this wouldn't register, but with NKRO you suddenly start to move diagonally right instead. This happened a surprisingly high number of times, pretty much all the time actually. That's why I nodded it with rubber sleeves on the WASD cluster; it was too easy to actuate the original linear design without noticing. I still had it from time to time with the sleeve mod as well as on the battleship F122, but not nearly as much.

[KRKS]

I've only ever found two reasons for them, both related to gaming; playing Marshmallow Duel with two people (on the same keyboard), and Surgeon Simulator (so you can actually use all fingers at once). Other than that, I have never needed NKRO.

Some 2KRO systems aren't very good though. Down+forward+enter is blocked on my KB-5981 which makes playing OMF 2097 quite hard, for example.

I've never really felt I genuinely needed NKRO though. In fact once or twice while playing it's actually hindered me.

How did it hinder you when you tried using an NKRO board, Chyros?

Accidental keypresses register. For example, when using the BTC I noticed that if I was walking diagonally, say forward and left, sometimes the weight of my finger would accidentally press right as well. Normally this wouldn't register, but with NKRO you suddenly start to move diagonally right instead. This happened a surprisingly high number of times, pretty much all the time actually. That's why I nodded it with rubber sleeves on the WASD cluster; it was too easy to actuate the original linear design without noticing. I still had it from time to time with the sleeve mod as well as on the battleship F122, but not nearly as much.

That's actually ghosting Never mind I'm dumb