Hello everyone - Mechanical convert, but with issues. Did I choose the wrong kb?

[DesignerNeil]

First off, I love mechanical keyboards, and that is despite the fact they have nearly driven me insane with problems since making the switch about 18months ago. I am hoping the good and knowledgeable people here might help me navigate the unlucky start I have had with mechanicals and save me from returning to mushy hell.

I’m on my fourth keyboard in a little over a year - all have suffered chattering. That is 3 x Corsair k70’s with reds and my current Das pro 4 with browns.  The Das lasted longer than any of the K70’s which all went after 8 weeks, and the Das also seems to respond better to cleaning which had virtually no effect on the corsair, but it still chatters even if less frequently - nearly usable with daily dusting, covering when not in use, weekly deeper clean and removal of certain other hardware. All four keyboards have made me look foolish professionally over the past year although up to now thankfully they haven’t cost me any serious money....Oh but they so easily could have!

There are a many things I have tried with all four boards, but I won’t bore you with all that...I haven’t even been able to narrow it down to one particular cause and am now more confused than ever....I’m chasing my tail.

But things have got worse for the Das recently and this is the immediate problem I would most appreciate advice with.  My latest weekly removal of all keys followed by an upside down light dusting and vacuum has led to a new problem.  Removing the stabilized keys is actually pretty easy, but when putting them back on, the little stem inside the caps of the backspace and enter keys spit and now the stabiliser is the only thing keeping them on. I guess they just weakened after being removed and put back on so many times or maybe I pressed them on too hard - don’t know but the plastic was quite brittle.

So I know Das don’t offer replacement caps, which leaves me with changing them all I suppose? Would it be hard to get an exact match and just replace the two broken caps?  Which brings me to my another issue - for work reasons I like my keyboards to look muted/modern/professional - not keen on the gamer look. I have clients sitting with me regularly so muted but professional is my thing and the Das 4 just fits that perfectly. So I’m not too keen on coloured caps or backlighting - I like them and all your keyboards look awesome, but for the primary use of my machine, the Das stock aesthetics suits me perfectly.  Does anyone know where I can get a close match to the standard Das black keys or have any suggestions whatsoever as to what I might do next to replace these caps? Replace them all, try and match them up, who does caps compatible with the Das pro 4 stabilizers etc.

I found myself googling for the worlds best membrane keyboard yesterday and my wrists and fingers almost starting aching and vibrating at the thought.....horrific.

So what do you think has happened - did I just choose the wrong keyboards or am I just unlucky. Where do I go from here.  PS. I need the number pad which is another reason I like the Das so the tenkeyless are a no go for me either. But I am considering a new board eventually for one last attempt at mechanical bliss - third brand lucky maybe?

[TastaturenAuslese]

First off, I love mechanical keyboards, and that is despite the fact they have nearly driven me insane with problems since making the switch about 18months ago. I am hoping the good and knowledgeable people here might help me navigate the unlucky start I have had with mechanicals and save me from returning to mushy hell.

I’m on my fourth keyboard in a little over a year - all have suffered chattering. That is 3 x Corsair k70’s with reds and my current Das pro 4 with browns.  The Das lasted longer than any of the K70’s which all went after 8 weeks, and the Das also seems to respond better to cleaning which had virtually no effect on the corsair, but it still chatters even if less frequently - nearly usable with daily dusting, covering when not in use, weekly deeper clean and removal of certain other hardware. All four keyboards have made me look foolish professionally over the past year although up to now thankfully they haven’t cost me any serious money....Oh but they so easily could have!

There are a many things I have tried with all four boards, but I won’t bore you with all that...I haven’t even been able to narrow it down to one particular cause and am now more confused than ever....I’m chasing my tail.

But things have got worse for the Das recently and this is the immediate problem I would most appreciate advice with.  My latest weekly removal of all keys followed by an upside down light dusting and vacuum has led to a new problem.  Removing the stabilized keys is actually pretty easy, but when putting them back on, the little stem inside the caps of the backspace and enter keys spit and now the stabiliser is the only thing keeping them on. I guess they just weakened after being removed and put back on so many times or maybe I pressed them on too hard - don’t know but the plastic was quite brittle.

So I know Das don’t offer replacement caps, which leaves me with changing them all I suppose? Would it be hard to get an exact match and just replace the two broken caps?  Which brings me to my another issue - for work reasons I like my keyboards to look muted/modern/professional - not keen on the gamer look. I have clients sitting with me regularly so muted but professional is my thing and the Das 4 just fits that perfectly. So I’m not too keen on coloured caps or backlighting - I like them and all your keyboards look awesome, but for the primary use of my machine, the Das stock aesthetics suits me perfectly.  Does anyone know where I can get a close match to the standard Das black keys or have any suggestions whatsoever as to what I might do next to replace these caps? Replace them all, try and match them up, who does caps compatible with the Das pro 4 stabilizers etc.

I found myself googling for the worlds best membrane keyboard yesterday and my wrists and fingers almost starting aching and vibrating at the thought.....horrific.

So what do you think has happened - did I just choose the wrong keyboards or am I just unlucky. Where do I go from here.  PS. I need the number pad which is another reason I like the Das so the tenkeyless are a no go for me either. But I am considering a new board eventually for one last attempt at mechanical bliss - third brand lucky maybe?

This is all a matter of preference, but I've noticed less chattering on capacitative keyboards. You should try the full sized realforce keyboard. They look clean and professional, and feel great on the fingers.

[DesignerNeil]

Yeah my feeling is the Cherry switches need to be used in a clinically clean environment for them t be cnsidered at all durable. My desk / office is kept cleaner than mst but to me dirt / dust seem t be the most likely culprits..there goes my 'O' key - a loooook at the underside of the key and its now split too...now I have to press the bare switch three or four times to get it to register at all!  OOO (that was one key press) was fine yesterday.  This is crazy. Sooo are Das keyboard just really good at marketing and cover up issues, or have I just been really unlucky?  Is my experience ccommn enough with Cherry switches?  How did smething get sooo revered by the interweb when it fails at its primary purpse of accurately inputting characters int a computer?

I love my car - its very comfortable and a nice looking machine too - but iit needs to be able to get me from A to B first and foremost. So far four mechanical keyboards haven't managed A to B... but they ace the comfort and looks categories.

Edit - after a worsening of the situation from the get go today (three attempts to just log in), and then the disintegration of my 'O' cap I finally put the Das in the drawer and went back to my ancient Dell that has served me faithfully for 10 years.  Back to error free typing but gone is the satisfying feel and classy looks of the Das.   But in the end, my mental health and my business are more important than my mechanical keyboard and a keyboards got to type properly or what's the point?.

[Snowdog993]

So what do you think has happened - did I just choose the wrong keyboards or am I just unlucky?
Where do I go from here?

PS. I need the number pad which is another reason I like the Das so the tenkeyless are a no go for me either. But I am considering a new board eventually for one last attempt at mechanical bliss - third brand lucky maybe?

Have you thought about getting a buckling spring keyboard at all?  Maybe that is what you need.

[DesignerNeil]

So what do you think has happened - did I just choose the wrong keyboards or am I just unlucky?
Where do I go from here?

PS. I need the number pad which is another reason I like the Das so the tenkeyless are a no go for me either. But I am considering a new board eventually for one last attempt at mechanical bliss - third brand lucky maybe?

Have you thought about getting a buckling spring keyboard at all?  Maybe that is what you need.

I have thought about Buckling springs and of course topre - and my father in law has an 80's grey ibm keyboard in his loft which might be hidden gem (though it would probably be too old to be a model M - must have a look)....but my problem comes from being a graphic designer - old school print design mostly, and I'm really done with the whole retro thing.. I like my kit to be slick and modern and reasonably minimal - call me shallow. But for the most part I do believe that they just don't make things how they used to.  Real quality products appear to be seriously on the slide, so I might just check out that old IBM and see if I can live with retro look for a while...its got to be better than my last four mechanicals!

[Melvang]

How are you doing the dusting, and how often?

IE, are you using a simple rag, dry or damp, cleaning cloth designed for something like PC monitors or flat panel TV screens, canned air??

[Snowdog993]

I have thought about Buckling springs and of course topre - and my father in law has an 80's grey ibm keyboard in his loft which might be hidden gem (though it would probably be too old to be a model M - must have a look)....but my problem comes from being a graphic designer - old school print design mostly, and I'm really done with the whole retro thing.. I like my kit to be slick and modern and reasonably minimal - call me shallow. But for the most part I do believe that they just don't make things how they used to.  Real quality products appear to be seriously on the slide, so I might just check out that old IBM and see if I can live with retro look for a while...its got to be better than my last four mechanicals!

Slick and Modern is okay with me.  You can always get one of those slick and modern keyboards that light up like a christmas tree, but if that's all you want, that's all you'll get.  I already know my endgame.

Edit: Let's just say I am using a 22+ year old keyboard.

[DesignerNeil]

I have thought about Buckling springs and of course topre - and my father in law has an 80's grey ibm keyboard in his loft which might be hidden gem (though it would probably be too old to be a model M - must have a look)....but my problem comes from being a graphic designer - old school print design mostly, and I'm really done with the whole retro thing.. I like my kit to be slick and modern and reasonably minimal - call me shallow. But for the most part I do believe that they just don't make things how they used to.  Real quality products appear to be seriously on the slide, so I might just check out that old IBM and see if I can live with retro look for a while...its got to be better than my last four mechanicals!

Slick and Modern is okay with me.  You can always get one of those slick and modern keyboards that light up like a christmas tree, but if that's all you want, that's all you'll get.  I already know my endgame.

Edit: Let's just say I am using a 22+ year old keyboard.

Oh no, I wouldn't want one of them.  All fur coat an no knickers as they say....My first mechanical was a k70 but only because it was the least gamer looking mech keyboard in the store that I bought it. Even the DK big red volume wheel was pushing it, but other than that the design is clean and understated which I really like. I know Das don't seem too popular around here but the four professional is one of the best looking keyboards I have ever seen IMO.  Most mainstream reviews were marking it down because of lack of features which is actually what made me go for it.  So when push comes to shove I will choose function over form as my keyboard is one of the three main tools I use to make a living.   I thought I had found both with the Das but unfortunately not. You know, I want ot have my cake and eat it too.... I really wish someone would take the Das design ethos and apply it to other switch types.

[DesignerNeil]

How are you doing the dusting, and how often?

IE, are you using a simple rag, dry or damp, cleaning cloth designed for something like PC monitors or flat panel TV screens, canned air??

I'm using a lightly damp microfiber cloth daily, a desk vacuum every few days and about once a week I give the whole thing a little shake and blow out with compressed air.  Since March I've had the keys stripped 3 times and followed Das customer service cleaning instructions to the letter.  I keep my desk and office clean as I have clients sitting with me quite often, so while I do eat, scratch and sometimes even have a smoke in the evenings, I am very careful to keep my gear and surrounding area clean.

I think this is what annoys me the most - durable is a big selling point for mechy keyboards, but in over 20 years of professional use (up to 16hrs a day), other than a Dell spacebar stabilizer failing on a bundled keyboard I haven't had any other operational problems until I went mechanical. Now I have nothing but problems which seems like the opposite of durable to me.  The most frustrating thing is that the thought of going back to the more durable membrane keyboards seems almost impossible now I that have been typing on switches for over a year. When the keyboards work my productivity goes through the roof - especially with the MX reds for some reason.

[Melvang]

I think part of the problem might be the compressed air blowing dust into the switch.  That or just horrible bad luck.  I have had multiple mechanical boards, including a Das 3 (pre media keys) and never had an issue.  I hardly ever cleaned it.  Also, fair warning if you do get an IBM F, do not use compressed air down the barrels.  Especially if it has not had a recent (last few years) mat replacement.  The compressed air can dislodge parts of the foam, and that can and will cause issues.

[jbondeson]

Yeah, my first thought would be the issues would be related to the constant cleaning you're doing. Unless the keyboard is subject to a really dusty or dirty (think dog hair) environment I don't know why you would pull keys to specifically clean under them more than once every quarter.

Hell I ran a Das II at work for 6 years and never took off the keys to clean and I never even lost any clickiness on the blues, let alone a chattering issue.

[DesignerNeil]

I can see why you'd think that from what I wrote, but it's the other way around. The cleaning is a symptom of the chattering... that is my OCD cleaning schedule is a direct result of keyboard chatter slowly driving me insane.

In the beginning I treated my first k70 like any other keyboard - a light dusting now and then nothing more.  It worked flawlessly for 8 weeks then started to chatter. A little a first, then it seemed to spread across the board from left to right.  When I got the point of RMA, 13 keys were chattering.

I got a replacement - identical keyboard.  8 weeks of trouble free usage then chattering starting on one key then spreading like a disease. 3rd keyboard was an updated model so I was hopeful, and again, 8 weeks or so the chatter started. Corsair and the people who populate the their forum had always insisted it was either my typing style combined with the reds and/or faulty switches that were the cause - for a time I bought that idea, but switch hitter has always shown my switches as operating normally - on all four keyboards, and I have been a text heavy graphic designer since Mac os5 (over 20 years) so I wasn't buying the typing style thing.

So I blamed Corsairs de-bounce algorithm and told myself that most users won't notice the problem as much in game playing as I do during daily work.  So I spent a long time reading reviews and forum posts and trying to work out what chatter even was. There is no shortage of people complaining about this issue if you look. Some have attempted to correct it at the software side, others have been so pissed they felt compelled to create a blog to tell the world about the fatal flaw in cherry mx switches.  During my hunting Steel Series and Razor got the most chatter complaints, followed by Corsair, Filco and Ducky. The repeating theme was either dud switches or dirt - and I knew my switches we fine.  I couldn't find any mention of chatter with DasKeyboard so this was one of the reason I went for it when I finally gave up on the K70. 

When the Das started to chatter, this sent me on a troubleshooting wild goose chase that has seen me replace my mouse and PSU, update mobo drivers, changing usb ports, disabling hardware and removing software, rolling back os updates and of course cleaning.  All appear to change the chatter behaviour to the point I think I might have minor dirt issues (most likely occasion ash) and minor software compatibility (most likely logitech set point) and minor usb problems (most likely caused by the Logitech unifying receiver or the usb 3 hub on my dell monitor).  Changing, disabling, removing, and generally messing about with these things all seem to change keyboard behaviour - as does cleaning... but the problem is so inconsistent that I can't be sure about anything anymore.

Because DasKeyboards mentioned dirt as a cause, and I read some stuff about people who live in dusty areas having problems, I became ultra paranoid about any spec of dust or crumb on or near my kb.

[jdcarpe]

I think what happened is you got a crappy keyboard at first (Corsair). You set up this rigid cleaning procedure as a way to fix the problem with it, and in the process you've basically destroyed the newer keyboards using that procedure. MX keyboards should need hardly any cleaning at all to continue to function without flaws. I say this as someone who owns probably 40+ MX keyboards.

The only chattering problems I've EVER experienced with my MX keyboards is when I used some very old, VERY dirty, MX blacks which I pulled from an anicent WYSE terminal keyboard. You could have knit a sweater with all the dust and hair I pulled out of that keyboard, and the switches appeared as if they had gotten wet at some point. And I only had chattering or fail to register issues on about 5 percent of those switches.

I had a problem with a Rosewill keyboard, but it was due to poor soldering by the factory. I fixed it myself by resoldering the switches which were having problems.

I would recommend a full size Filco as my go-to for MX keyboards. Never had one problem with a Filco.

[DesignerNeil]

I think what happened is you got a crappy keyboard at first (Corsair). You set up this rigid cleaning procedure as a way to fix the problem with it, and in the process you've basically destroyed the newer keyboards using that procedure. MX keyboards should need hardly any cleaning at all to continue to function without flaws. I say this as someone who owns probably 40+ MX keyboards.

The only chattering problems I've EVER experienced with my MX keyboards is when I used some very old, VERY dirty, MX blacks which I pulled from an anicent WYSE terminal keyboard. You could have knit a sweater with all the dust and hair I pulled out of that keyboard, and the switches appeared as if they had gotten wet at some point. And I only had chattering or fail to register issues on about 5 percent of those switches.

I had a problem with a Rosewill keyboard, but it was due to poor soldering by the factory. I fixed it myself by resoldering the switches which were having problems.

I would recommend a full size Filco as my go-to for MX keyboards. Never had one problem with a Filco.

Yeah I have had this denial a lot over the past year - no one seems to believe it yet I could pull up 100 links right now of others with similar problems. The cleaning is light and very careful and with the Das too the chatter came before a single cap was removed - compressed air has never been blown into the switches. What you are saying is that by treating my das like its a priceless antique I have somehow wreaked it?  Was it the lightly damp cloth, the extreme low watt keyboard vacuum or the gentle cleaning between the switch with q-tips that did it then?  Sorry to sound sarcastic, but I have been through all the blame game before.  In fact, people get almost religious about this subject and feel they have to blame the user.  Its funny how this user managed to use any piece of technology ever...or are keyboards different?

I may be a mechy noob, but I have been building and fixing PC's for 20 years have modded high end hi-fi equipment, fixed Ipads, tv's and the likes - I didn't know that mechanical keyboards were much more delicate than any of those products.

[jbondeson]

At this point I feel I have to ask how you use them to consistently get the exact same issue time and again.

I've worked with some people who type with an insane amount of force and that could cause switch issues.

[DesignerNeil]

At this point I feel I have to ask how you use them to consistently get the exact same issue time and again.

I've worked with some people who type with an insane amount of force and that could cause switch issues.

I do bottom out the keys, or at least some of them - tends to be the index finger that does it most.  Do you think this would be the cause?  I'm not a touch typist, but after 20years I can hit around 90wpm when I concentrate, but I wouldn't say I use an insane amount of force.

This is why I have been trying to find some sort of hardware problem in my setup - although my setup is all pretty new and what most would consider top end kit.  Eg Maximus hero / i7k / 32gb 2400mhz ram / sli GF780's, Samsung evo's and 1000w platinum psu, twin QHD dell ultrasharps etc... you get the idea.   I went no holes barred with the setup last year.

I have just been offered a replacement keyboard - literally five minutes ago.  I am wondering if I got some O rings would that maybe help if it was bottoming out causing it? Still, I never managed to break a membrane keyboard by typing too hard - I broke a logicrap backlit one once with scissor switches (worth over £100) with a coffee spill and had a stabilizer break on an oem cheap ass dell after 10 years because I strike the space bar off centre....but that's it.

[jdcarpe]

Yeah I have had this denial a lot over the past year - no one seems to believe it yet I could pull up 100 links right now of others with similar problems. The cleaning is light and very careful and with the Das too the chatter came before a single cap was removed - compressed air has never been blown into the switches. What you are saying is that by treating my das like its a priceless antique I have somehow wreaked it?  Was it the lightly damp cloth, the extreme low watt keyboard vacuum or the gentle cleaning between the switch with q-tips that did it then?  Sorry to sound sarcastic, but I have been through all the blame game before.  In fact, people get almost religious about this subject and feel they have to blame the user.  Its funny how this user managed to use any piece of technology ever...or are keyboards different?

I may be a mechy noob, but I have been building and fixing PC's for 20 years have modded high end hi-fi equipment, fixed Ipads, tv's and the likes - I didn't know that mechanical keyboards were much more delicate than any of those products.

I'm not trying to place the blame on you, really. I'm just looking at the admittedly limited information I have about your situation, and trying to eliminate variables. Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is usually the correct one. The one thing in common with all your keyboards? The user.

Now, it is certainly possible that all of these keyboards came from the factory with defects. I just find it strange that they all suffer the exact same problem, which hardly anyone in the keyboard community reports as an issue with their mechanical keyboards.

Another constant, I'm assuming, is the PC. Have you tried these keyboards on another PC, and if so, was the problem still there? Do other, non-mechanical, keyboards have this problem with your PC? Have you tried using the PS/2 input, instead of USB?

As others have said, it could be that you just had extremely bad luck, and received multiple keyboards with bad switches. Also, you might check out this link https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66677.0. Apparently, some manufacturers use poor firmware.

[jbondeson]

I do bottom out the keys, or at least some of them - tends to be the index finger that does it most.  Do you think this would be the cause?  I'm not a touch typist, but after 20years I can hit around 90wpm when I concentrate, but I wouldn't say I use an insane amount of force.

No, I bottom out my browns on darn near every keystroke. You'd have to be typing at a force that would bottom out hard on clears to cause damage from that.

his is why I have been trying to find some sort of hardware problem in my setup - although my setup is all pretty new and what most would consider top end kit.  Eg Maximus hero / i7k / 32gb 2400mhz ram / sli GF780's, Samsung evo's and 1000w platinum psu, twin QHD dell ultrasharps etc... you get the idea.   I went no holes barred with the setup last year.

I'm with jd at this point, you're either the most unlucky sod on earth with mechs, or there's an external factor going on here. 

[DesignerNeil]

Yeah I have had this denial a lot over the past year - no one seems to believe it yet I could pull up 100 links right now of others with similar problems. The cleaning is light and very careful and with the Das too the chatter came before a single cap was removed - compressed air has never been blown into the switches. What you are saying is that by treating my das like its a priceless antique I have somehow wreaked it?  Was it the lightly damp cloth, the extreme low watt keyboard vacuum or the gentle cleaning between the switch with q-tips that did it then?  Sorry to sound sarcastic, but I have been through all the blame game before.  In fact, people get almost religious about this subject and feel they have to blame the user.  Its funny how this user managed to use any piece of technology ever...or are keyboards different?

I may be a mechy noob, but I have been building and fixing PC's for 20 years have modded high end hi-fi equipment, fixed Ipads, tv's and the likes - I didn't know that mechanical keyboards were much more delicate than any of those products.

I'm not trying to place the blame on you, really. I'm just looking at the admittedly limited information I have about your situation, and trying to eliminate variables. Occam's Razor - the simplest solution is usually the correct one. The one thing in common with all your keyboards? The user.

Now, it is certainly possible that all of these keyboards came from the factory with defects. I just find it strange that they all suffer the exact same problem, which hardly anyone in the keyboard community reports as an issue with their mechanical keyboards.

Another constant, I'm assuming, is the PC. Have you tried these keyboards on another PC, and if so, was the problem still there? Do other, non-mechanical, keyboards have this problem with your PC? Have you tried using the PS/2 input, instead of USB?

As others have said, it could be that you just had extremely bad luck, and received multiple keyboards with bad switches. Also, you might check out this link https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66677.0. Apparently, some manufacturers use poor firmware.

Apologies If I seemed a bit snippy, but its been a long road with this issue and I have covered so much over that time.  Anything else I would have given up on by now, but I love mechanical switches so much I am willing to try almost anything to fix this. I literally can show you blogs on this very subject, I can even show you reviews of keycaps on wasd that have obviously been typed on an mx keyboard that have double characters through them.  It may be rare but its not as unknown as you suggest. Again, most of this info I have collected about chatter comes from user reviews that I can easily find and show you....like I said before the big brand gamer keyboards are most mentioned, but Ducky and Filco and sometime pokers get plenty of mentions too.

Switch hitter is showing all switches to be operating normally. I need to move the response time up to 30ms before I get any errors during testing, and even then its on keys that don't experience chatter normally.

[Hypersphere]

If you really need to clean keyboards, blowing clean air is preferable to using a vacuum cleaner, which can damage electronic components via discharges of static electricity.

Could you define what you mean by "chattering" to be sure we are on the same page?

In addition, how are you connecting your keyboard to your computer? Direct via USB? PS/2? Indirect via a USB hub and/or a KM or KVM switch?

It does seem odd to have had so many issues with mechanical keyboards. I've used many varieties over the years, including IBM Model M, IBM Model F, various keyboards with every variety of Cherry mx switch, various keyboards with all three types of Matias switch, and Topre-switch boards, including the Leopold FC660C, RF87ub45, RFub55, and HHKB Pro 2. I use a KVM switch with a powered USB hub, and I have had very few problems with keyboards, and never any chattering issues. However, I have heard that the problem is more prevalent with Cherry mx switches and this is my least favorite type, so I have relatively little experience with Cherry mx keyboards.

If you haven't done so already, you might consult the comments on chattering on the Elitekeyboards.com site. They also have free Windows software for testing keyboards for chattering. BTW, they strongly advise never blowing compressed air into a switch.

Good luck!

[smknjoe]

If you have no trouble with rubber domes and you can get modern "slick" looking models...why not stick with those? Why would you be so fond of mechs if they have caused you so much grief?

[DesignerNeil]

If you really need to clean keyboards, blowing clean air is preferable to using a vacuum cleaner, which can damage electronic components via discharges of static electricity.

Could you define what you mean by "chattering" to be sure we are on the same page?

In addition, how are you connecting your keyboard to your computer? Direct via USB? PS/2? Indirect via a USB hub and/or a KM or KVM switch?

It does seem odd to have had so many issues with mechanical keyboards. I've used many varieties over the years, including IBM Model M, IBM Model F, various keyboards with every variety of Cherry mx switch, various keyboards with all three types of Matias switch, and Topre-switch boards, including the Leopold FC660C, RF87ub45, RFub55, and HHKB Pro 2. I use a KVM switch with a powered USB hub, and I have had very few problems with keyboards, and never any chattering issues. However, I have heard that the problem is more prevalent with Cherry mx switches and this is my least favorite type, so I have relatively little experience with Cherry mx keyboards.

If you haven't done so already, you might consult the comments on chattering on the Elitekeyboards.com site. They also have free Windows software for testing keyboards for chattering. BTW, they strongly advise never blowing compressed air into a switch.

Good luck!

Yeah that would be the switch hitter software from elite keyboards that shows no errors as mentioned above.  KB is connected directly to the 3.0 port on motherboard, which is a high end 2014 model with the latest intel usb drivers.  Chattering as in key bounce, repeat letters. llike thatt.  The problem is intermittent mostly, that is a switch that chatters today may not tomorrow, with the exception of zzz which has been more annoying than the rest. The vacuum is a keyboard one - a little tiny thing that runs on a rechargeable battery made especially for cleaning electrical equipment and most often used to clean dust out off heatsinks or from around sensitive components.

Corsair tested the boards each time before sending me a new one, so yes it happens on other machines.  I tried the Das on my wife's Dell XPS and it chatters.  I tried it on my Ubuntu machine and it chatters although much much less than in windows.

I can show you blogs from other enthusiasts discussing this very issue - so its not new nor is it unique...hence elite keyboards even discuss it on their website.

[DesignerNeil]

If you have no trouble with rubber domes and you can get modern "slick" looking models...why not stick with those? Why would you be so fond of mechs if they have caused you so much grief?

Yikes... I used rubber domes for ever, but as soon as I put my hands on a mechanical I thought this is what I have ben looking for my whole life... the quality of keyboards has always been upsetting to me as I use them so much. Also, when they work my productivity goes up and mundane typing task are more enjoyable. But other than that I do get your point - at least I never had any trouble with the domes.

[smknjoe]

Is the rubber dome, the one that I assume works okay on this new rig, plugged in via USB 3.0 as well? I've had trouble with some USB 3.0 peripherals due to the high (rf) frequency of USB 3.0.

[DesignerNeil]

Is the rubber dome, the one that I assume works okay on this new rig, plugged in via USB 3.0 as well? I've had trouble with some USB 3.0 peripherals due to the high (rf) frequency of USB 3.0.

Yeah, the dome keyboard, an old dell, or myold MS one, or for that matter and £10 logicrap wireless one (and that included a mouse), all work on all 12 usb ports.

[FoxWolf1]

Well, you could keep trying to figure out why you have such frequent chatter problems...or you could just say **** it and buy a keyboard with switches that don't rely on contact sensing (and therefore can't have chatter).

In the second case, you'll be looking at things with capacitive (e.g. Topre and its clones, IBM Model F, maybe Fuhlen if you're less picky about feel), optical (e.g. A4tech a.k.a. Bloody), or Hall effect (e.g. Honeywell, RAFI-- these will be harder to obtain) switches. Plenty of stuff out there, but you might have to spend more and/or be a bit more adventurous than you were expecting in order to obtain it.

[DesignerNeil]

I think my problem has been solved,  for now anyway, but I am really hoping this might be it.

Daskeyboards have so far decided to ignore my ticket on this issue on my 16 week old keyboard, which forced me to go and hunt for new keycaps to replace the four ones with damaged stems - either that or do without my keyboard. So the new vortex caps arrived today and I quickly stuck them on the Das.  The stock Das keys come off quite easily, but the new vortex ones certainly don't. When they're on, they're on, so much so that my little plastic ring pull isn't really up to the job. When the new caps were pressed down into position I immediately noticed a fairly solid click, as the little + slotted into place.  The Das ones never did this.  On pressing the new key I noticed an immediate change in feel and sound. Before the browns always felt a little grainy and I could never really fell the bump, it was more like a grainy hump.  But now its much smoother and the bump is far more of a bump. The sound has got more of a solid sound, and the sort of springy, tinny sound has gone completely. To be fair I never really noticed until I compared the keys pressing side by side.

But the best thing is, apart from my z key, which I think might actually have some dirt or ash in it, the chatter appears to have stopped.  In fact the z doesn't chatter, it just misses occasionally. So, my new theory is that the loose fitting, thin and brittle keycaps were the cause of my chatter on the Das at least.  The Corsair was always different - cleaning never helped and the chatter spread across the board from left to right, it was also much more pronounced, and once it started it just got progressively worse until the board was unusable.  The das behaved inconsistently - sometimes chattering, sometimes not. I'm hoping this isn't just another sometimes not.

So when I look closely at the stems on the bottom of the caps, you can clearly see the difference in width on the little plus slots. The Das ones are much less well defined and definitely larger/looser. 


So I think that the Das keycaps are so piss poor that they have just gotten loose and brittle over time, and where causing an uneven strike of the keys. I had always been slightly aware of a bit of an uneven look to the rows on the Das, and I thought this was just a standard tolerance for the switch type as the Corsair was never perfectly straight either, but that definitely isn't the case because the new key caps line up perfectly.

I have to use the kb for a few days to confirm it is really gone, and give that z key a little lube or clean with something - I'm sure there are guides for that about.  But I'm more confident than ever before as there is something about the responsiveness that I haven't felt in a while. I have to say I am appalled at the crappy quality of the Das keycaps, especially now I have seen something decent - its not cheap keyboard by any stretch.  The new caps aren't perfect, you can see some stem marks on the space and right shift, and they sent me two 'D's and no hash key and they are very grey. But other than that this could turn out to be the best buy I have made all year.

[njbair]

Have you ruled out environmental issues with your physical location? That is, taking the board off-site and seeing if you still have problems. Maybe there's some weird EMI issue in your office. If this is the case, cheap rubberdomes might still work because the controller boards are manufactured by the millions and have undergone more thorough testing over time than the relatively niche mechanicals.

[Melvang]

Have you ruled out environmental issues with your physical location? That is, taking the board off-site and seeing if you still have problems. Maybe there's some weird EMI issue in your office. If this is the case, cheap rubberdomes might still work because the controller boards are manufactured by the millions and have undergone more thorough testing over time than the relatively niche mechanicals.

I wonder if there are any high voltage lines running under the floor/in an exterior wall of your office.

[rowdy]

Welcome to Geekhack!

That's quite a saga   And a few GH heavyweights (in the knowledge area) have already chimed in.

There's not much more for me to add.  I have a number of Cherry MX-based keyboards with different switches used in different environments (home and work).  None of them has ever shown any sign of chatter at all.  My home is extremely dusty.  After a week there is a noticeable layer of dust on things.  I tend to keep my in-use keyboards covered with tea towels when I'm not physically using them, but don't really have a rigorous cleaning regime.

When I swap keycaps I'll usually remove all keycaps, give the plate a brush over with an old paint brush I have, blow the residue off, and put the new keycaps on.  No problems at all so far.

One thing I've been wondering about is the slightly damp cloth you use - if dampness gets left around the switches it is possible that it might seep into the switches.  Even a minute amount could potentially have a negative effect on switch performance.

Also you mentioned smoking near the keyboard?  That's generally a big no-no.  Smoke particles are extremely fine, and could very well settle into the keyboard and into the switch.  Possibly minute smoke particles coupled with minute amounts of water could have contributed to the problem.

As far as finding a modern minimalistic keyboard goes - you should not have a problem.  Range might be a bit limited for you if you need UK ISO layout, but there are many plain black keyboards out there, and many plain black keycap sets.

[DesignerNeil]

Thanks. I really appreciate all of the replies.

I'm normally pretty good at troubleshooting so as you can imagine this has been driving me nuts.  I have never been defeated with a technical issue before. I had read on reddit about smoke and keyboard chatter, so I brought it up with both Corsair and Das support - they both answered that it would be highly unlikely that was the case, but that I could try and clean the switches by dripping some isopropyl alcohol in with a cue-tip then pressing the key up and down to try and clean the contact -  I haven't done this yet as the thought of dripping something into the switch makes me nervous.

So far the new caps have definitely made a difference - I didn't buy the caps to fix the chatter problem, it was the splitting stems that made me go for the pbt caps. So I was completely surprised to see that the keyboard was performing much better - I know it seems unlikely, but there it is.   So far 48hrs use has not really shown any problems.  I have noticed a few double F's but in testing I haven't been able to repeat this so it may have been my error.  The z key will also miss about 1 in 20 and I think it might actually be dirty, or possibly a little shard from the cracked stem is causing it?  The one thing that confuses me about it being either dirt or smoke/ash particles is.... shouldn't a chattering switch whatever the cause show up in switch hitter?

Ultimately if the chatter returns then I guess I will either have to stop smoking near my computer, stop smoking all together, go back to membrane, find an old IBM or shell out for capacitive.

[rowdy]

If you can eliminate the potential causes one by one, you might find the cause.

[demik]

if it's not a topre, it's the wrong keyboard

[Melvang]

If you would have seen two of the PC's I have opened up, you wouldn't let anyone smoke in the same building as your computer.  Smoke gunked up the CPU fan to the point it wouldn't spin.  The one I only had open long enough to change it as I had found the problem where it resided at.  My mom brought it home for me to swap the fan.  Just that 20 minutes made my room stink like that for a week.  I noticed it that long, and I smoked at the time, never inside.

[thebbfrog]

??