Ika sorry there is no example of the black case. It will be black and will be powdercoated in the original textured powdercoating like the originals had, but just in black.
Black is one of the most popular options from what I have seen in the orders.
I did a really bad job of rationing my funds for this project while it was in development. :))
This is a good set up, instead of double tapping two of these I can order f77 now before the deadline and then an f62 in the next couple of months.
Can't decide between classic beige and industrial grey. ??? :))
Can't decide between classic beige and industrial grey. ??? :))
Industrial gray. Beige already existed.
Quite a few people are buying the case in another color to the one they ordered with the keyboard because you won't be able to order them after the group buy ends
to keep things simple, serials are per product line and per full keyboard ordered - F62 is one product line and F77 is the other
If you order one keyboard and one spare case, I'd expect to put an identical label on both cases so you can switch between them. Or maybe no label on the second case. Not sure yet.
We have our first important issue (cross-posted onto both IC and GB threads for completeness) :(
Unfortunately PayPal has locked my funds as a security precaution (?) given the $30,000+ that came in from the first few days of accepting orders.
Orders are still being accepted through PayPal without issue, so please do get in your order if you haven't already!
I am going to speak with them ASAP and try to resolve it but this could cause a hassle.
I have already fully disclosed to them the product web site, nature of the project, and the increased expected business levels.
It seems like they often release funds only after they are exposed publicly about the specific case and someone has made a noise about the issue by posting about it on a blog.
If anyone has any experience or advice dealing with PayPal or any contacts there, or can offer specific help in another way please let me know.
I don't expect this to put us off schedule though, because at the very worst if it comes down to it, I may need to cancel the PayPal funds and accept payments over credit card or check (your order is not being canceled! This is just the worst-case scenario). It will be inconvenient for everyone unfortunately if this turns out to be the case but we don't have to use PayPal to accept payment online. I'll keep everyone posted though.
So far about 25% of the interest form has paid and many have ordered more keyboards than what they put down in the form - a good thing! The web site has slowed down from the increased traffic but it is still holding up well.
I dont know if it has been mentioned you can also get keys with 'fn' printed they would be good for those keys between ctrl and alt if they were being used as function keys.
Elrick the Windows key will be included because Unicomp includes that key with their key sets. For the extra Fn key, please add 1 unit of the product "other customizations ($1 increments)" and put in a note that it is for a Fn key from Unicomp in (pearl/pebble) color.Does Unicomp has fn keycap? I can't find it on their website.
Elrick the Windows key will be included because Unicomp includes that key with their key sets. For the extra Fn key, please add 1 unit of the product "other customizations ($1 increments)" and put in a note that it is for a Fn key from Unicomp in (pearl/pebble) color.Does Unicomp has fn keycap? I can't find it on their website.
oh my god I hadn't realized there was a HHKB layout… now to pick colors ughgo with industrial color :p
wow - after not even the first week of ordering, almost one-third of those who filled out the interest form have already placed their orders on ModelFkeyboards.com! We still have the rest of this month to take care of everyone else.I want to join the early bird but I don't have anymore money left for keyboard purchase and thank you ellipse for making second round for guy like me :thumb:
Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.
As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.
I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color :)
Also the black case / black keys is a popular option.
And thanks hoggy and Limewirelord! Glad you are excited. I continue to type on the brand new Industrial F77 prototype and over the past week the springs have loosened up to make them even more more closely comparable with an original Model F.
Are we supposed to be asking questions in here or the Interest Check thread?
Are we supposed to be asking questions in here or the Interest Check thread?
The IC is still open? That seems redundant. I figured here as this is the official GB thread.
Assuming component longevity is similar to originals, I would suggest getting extra flippers and springs at a minimum, and maybe extra inner foam as those components wear out most during usage.
Elrick will you not be using this keyboard to its full Industrial-strength potential every single day???
I'm getting some extra cash before the months up, so I'll be placing an order soon. :)
Assuming component longevity is similar to originals, I would suggest getting extra flippers and springs at a minimum, and maybe extra inner foam as those components wear out most during usage.
Most here won't have just this keyboard in their possession but have hundreds all waiting to be used one day. This keyboard shall be parked to the side just like an American Sportscar and only taken out once or twice a year to experience it's inputting glory that is unlike every other keyboard ever made.
This art piece shall be kept and admired each and every day, plus just knowing you have this keyboard under your roof makes life more pleasurable 8) .
Elrick will you not be using this keyboard to its full Industrial-strength potential every single day??? It should be able to withstand daily usage for a few decades!
After seeing all the F77 pics I wish I had extra finances to get one of those as well, they are much nicer then I originally thought.
After seeing all the F77 pics I wish I had extra finances to get one of those as well, they are much nicer then I originally thought.
The F77 is the ONLY Model-F to buy.
You youngsters always after smaller and smaller keyboards, just don't get that type of mentality any more ......... :p
For once I agree with Elrick. :))
F77 is the way to go here.
Damn guys why are you doing this to me :) Wallethack living up to its name :)) Maybe I can get enough together to get one on the later round.
Damn guys why are you doing this to me :) Wallethack living up to its name :)) Maybe I can get enough together to get one on the later round.
It's the nature of Group Buys and this baby isn't going to be available ALWAYS. Ellipse is right that some scumbags will buy up big here and then put it on Ebay for $1600USD each, later on.
Best time to buy this rare keyboard is NOW so don'rt wait for any fantasy price drops because it won't happen. Once all the hardware is bought there is no re-do on all the gear later on down the track, 2016 is the last and only year you'll get to own a BRAND NEW Model-F Keyboard.
Would rather spend my money on this keyboard than get another Cherry MX or Thorpie model.
Just a quick question about the F62 options, Color: Industrial Gray, Is this the same case color as the Gray F77 posted here?
Thanks
Also there are two German tech news sites with articles up already. It's pretty clear by the user comments that they did not read the web site and just looked at the photo on the web site of an old-style looking keyboard and saw the price and made their remarks only based on that :(
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Tastaturen-Hardware-255538/News/IBM-Model-F-Neuauflage-kaufen-1185232/ (http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Tastaturen-Hardware-255538/News/IBM-Model-F-Neuauflage-kaufen-1185232/)
http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mechanische-tastatur-ibm-model-f-wird-ab-325-us-dollar-erneut-produziert/ (http://www.computerbase.de/2016-02/mechanische-tastatur-ibm-model-f-wird-ab-325-us-dollar-erneut-produziert/)
Glod why resist :) ? Model F keyboards tend to hold up their value well over time, meaning if your situation changes down the line you can always sell this later after the group buy ends - you may even get more than what you paid for it depending on demand.
So is the F62 not available in industrial grey?
So is the F62 not available in industrial grey?
there should be a dropdown with options for industrial grey, beige and black:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-model-f-keyboard-kishsaver/ (http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-model-f-keyboard-kishsaver/)
maybe try reloading, since i think the dropdown didn't appear for me earlier on when i first visited that page.
Ellipse, why the extras, I mean is this something we really should be looking at too? I sometimes jump on a group buy when options that I didn't really know that I needed or wanted were easily available and then its way too late for me to do anything about it. I mean the extra case is a given even the paper thank you and the extra box with styrofoam. I'm referring to the flippers and plastics and springs etc. I mean are these things you should be really encouraging us to buy to ensure we have spare parts assuming we use the keyboard as our everyday board? I would like to know what you would buy or have extra on hand (especially since you have had the chance to use the new boards for quite awhile).I believe the extras are aimed at people with restoration projects for other model f's. As it stands the only option is to cannibalize another model f if you are missing parts for one. By listing them separately people can order them for existing boards.
I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
I ordered an f77 and will order an f62 in a few months, its just a once in a lifetime oppertunity
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
I ordered an f77 and will order an f62 in a few months, its just a once in a lifetime oppertunity
Of course you have! Your SSK was amazing when I saw it (I was jealous of it!), no surprise you are keen on this :P
Going to have a night to think about it and see what to do.
Any other Aussies ordered one of these? I'm so tempted to get the F77 but the exchange and shipping is killing me :(
alright, got my second order in... should be all set now xD!!!
just the 62 with parts for both shift setups and two cases!!!alright, got my second order in... should be all set now xD!!!
You get one of each?
Or multiple of something?
My recommendation is to buy spare inside foam and spare flippers and springs. This is not finalized but I do expect to include some leftover springs with everyone's order because springs may wear out and the foam may become less spongy over time- no one knows.Do you expect the foam used in this production to age like those in original Model F? Even if I buy an extra set of foam now, will they age at the same rate as the one in keyboard, so they are not usable when I need them? (I don't know much about foam)
I really want to get in on this now but I think I am going to wait until round 2 when I have more money at my disposal.
Ellipse, there is guaranteed to be a round 2 right?
I really want to get in on this now but I think I am going to wait until round 2 when I have more money at my disposal.
Ellipse, there is guaranteed to be a round 2 right?
Yup. The first round is for early birdies, us keyboard nerds. The second round will open right after and be open for ever and ever and ever. Or end of June of this year. Whichever comes first.
I think this is the most expensive groupbuy in the history of GH
Indeed, this is one for the history books.Wiki you say?
...or for the wiki
I have not placed my order yet. Still deciding on options...
I am looking forward to receiving my orders.Do you know the lz fe GB? That is the most expensive GB for keyboard that I know.
I think this is the most expensive groupbuy in the history of GH
I am pretty excited about this, I joined in for a f77, most expensive single purchase since my GON. It's got me cautiously optimistic though, bad group buy experiences
So I am curious - who is waiting until the final round to place an order? I'll make a note of it so I won't send you a reminder email the last week of the early bird round. (cross post of interest to both IC and GB threads)
We have crossed $47,000 in orders (including shipping) after the first ~2 weeks!
Glod-in your experience what has gone wrong with your previous group buy experiences? So I can try to avoid these issues.
hashbaz, the paypal issue is cleared up.
hashbaz yes PayPal is no longer a potential issue. Everyone please place an order if you want one of these keyboards!
I reported a few days ago that they approved me to continue using PayPal and that they would release my funds.
A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not forthright - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me. The keyboards should ship in April/May, not too long a wait.
I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.
To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.
I have no problem with using a direct merchant account. It's a shame PayPal can't act like a normal money processing system. I'm not sure why they always want to stick their nose in on these types of crowd funded projects.
Speaking of crowd funding, maybe in hindsight it would have been better to just go with Kickstarter, etc. They take a small cut up front, but this is literally their business model..
Yep that's right techno. Kickstarter does take 5% though (an extra $15 or so per keyboard). With a merchant account I just have to pay the credit card fees which is a few percentage points and a few hundred in upfront fees, but no Kickstarter fee.
Also I don't think Kickstarter easily allows all of the dozens of possible combinations and accessories so that's why I chose to build my own site for this project - much easier than manual tracking of options for every order.
Last I checked we passed $49,000 in sales (with shipping charges)!
hashbaz yes PayPal is no longer a potential issue. Everyone please place an order if you want one of these keyboards!
I reported a few days ago that they approved me to continue using PayPal and that they would release my funds.
A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not forthright - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me. The keyboards should ship in April/May, not too long a wait.
I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.
To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.
Thanks cjhard and atlas. We are at the mid point of the group buy right now and have just two weeks left for everyone to get in their early bird orders!Wow that's super cool! I think Notch is a buckling spring fan because he uses a Model M.
Everyone who orders before the end of the month receives an early bird keyboard - you don't have to pay extra thanks to the early bird tooling volunteers.
We just crossed the $51,000 mark! Now there are at least two well-known individuals in the tech world who have bought one of these F77/F62 keyboards!
A few days ago DT user bubblebobbler posted that he helped in getting Minecraft founder "Notch" to order a keyboard! And the second individual has his own wikipedia page and is a major innovator who started in the early days of the internet.
Thanks cjhard and atlas. We are at the mid point of the group buy right now and have just two weeks left for everyone to get in their early bird orders!Wow that's super cool! I think Notch is a buckling spring fan because he uses a Model M.
Everyone who orders before the end of the month receives an early bird keyboard - you don't have to pay extra thanks to the early bird tooling volunteers.
We just crossed the $51,000 mark! Now there are at least two well-known individuals in the tech world who have bought one of these F77/F62 keyboards!
A few days ago DT user bubblebobbler posted that he helped in getting Minecraft founder "Notch" to order a keyboard! And the second individual has his own wikipedia page and is a major innovator who started in the early days of the internet.
romevi that is interesting. What a great office that allows buckling spring keyboards! Imagine the sound of lots of buckling springs is probably how many 1980s offices sounded!
Photoelectric-yes they will be similar to the originals. No two Model F's are the same though so it won't match exactly any specific Model F you've tried. If you go to modelfkeyboards.com you can see a comparison video with typing tests and sound. The key force is the same as the originals. Reviews of production units from the first round won't be available until April/May at the earliest, so if you're waiting until then, you won't get your keyboard until August/September (the final round closes 6/30). The two prototypes are of excellent quality and functionality but they are being adjusted before the first production round.
I'm actually really curious about the "Other" color option as well. Can I get this in either a Tiffany Blue or a Pastel Pink?
I'm actually really curious about the "Other" color option as well. Can I get this in either a Tiffany Blue or a Pastel Pink?
If I didn't get my 6019284 in jdcarpurple, I would've gotten one of those two colors :))
Thanks! We just crossed $65,000 in orders for the F62/F77 group buy (including shipping)!
In for an F62 and an F77! Hope I'm under the wire for the first run.
Group Buy update:
With 180 keyboards ordered in the past month (over $77,000 in orders including shipping costs!) I have decided to proceed with producing my own IBM XT quality, one-piece Model M/Model F compatible key caps for most orders from this project, including black unprinted keys. Custom colors and APL sets will likely be Unicomp made.
I will also be making the short right shift/caps lock key mold non-stepped as has been strongly requested from the beginning (of course stepped caps lock keys can be put in place of non-stepped keys).
As the factory takes care of the remaining pre-production things, I will try to accommodate the late orders into the early bird round, but no guarantees!
Please keep keycap discussion on the IC thread so that there is no overlap on the threads.
Any questions about changing or discussing your orders please keep them on this thread.
Group Buy update:
With 180 keyboards ordered in the past month (over $77,000 in orders including shipping costs!) I have decided to proceed with producing my own IBM XT quality, one-piece Model M/Model F compatible key caps for most orders from this project, including black unprinted keys. Custom colors and APL sets will likely be Unicomp made.
I will also be making the short right shift/caps lock key mold non-stepped as has been strongly requested from the beginning (of course stepped caps lock keys can be put in place of non-stepped keys).
As the factory takes care of the remaining pre-production things, I will try to accommodate the late orders into the early bird round, but no guarantees!
Please keep keycap discussion on the IC thread so that there is no overlap on the threads.
Any questions about changing or discussing your orders please keep them on this thread.
Good news - I have finally switched over to a merchant account! Everything is now set up on the web site, including SSL for the checkout page. I went with one of the most popular payment processors, Authorize.net (over 400,000 merchant customers including eBay, shopify, and BigCommerce). If you are planning on a future order and are unable to pay by credit or debit card, PayPal will still be an option - just PM me your shopping cart contents when ready to order.
It's almost unreal that we are up to $78,000 in orders (including shipping charges) after a little over one month!
Yes that's a great article that Brian wrote for Hackaday regarding this project! He reached out to me and interviewed me on the project.
GB update: I am still taking orders for the early bird round and am hoping that the factory takes care of all the pre-production work as soon as possible.
Due to these delays we are now looking at these to ship towards the end of the estimated April/May timeframe for the early birds. The good thing is any latecomers still have some time to get into the early bird round, at least until early next week.
We are at 183 keyboards ordered in the first 6 weeks and have passed $80,000 in orders (including shipping costs)! The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
The F77s are ahead a bit so far: 87 F62s and 96 F77s.
Was there any doubt of the Great F77 beating that deformed, smaller layout ;D ?
Reminder - please get in on the True Red original case if you're interested by tomorrow!
And what kind of finishes and processes are people considering for the Ultra compact case? Powdercoated, anodized, electrophoresis, etched?
Reminder - please get in on the True Red original case if you're interested by tomorrow!
Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
Idollar over on Deskthority is about to order a set of FSSK PCBs for his group buy, so I'll be able to make a sorta-Model F SSK someday soon. I'd still rather be able to buy one fully purpose-built, though. It's going to be a pain to have to screw mod an SSK, source 87 F pivot plates and hammers (I'm going to sacrifice an XT for my first FSSK), bend the PCB, solder in an xwhatsit controller, and put it all back together.Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
^^ I'm dreaming too, TKL Model F, oO.. I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Idollar over on Deskthority is about to order a set of FSSK PCBs for his group buy, so I'll be able to make a sorta-Model F SSK someday soon. I'd still rather be able to buy one fully purpose-built, though. It's going to be a pain to have to screw mod an SSK, source 87 F pivot plates and hammers (I'm going to sacrifice an XT for my first FSSK), bend the PCB, solder in an xwhatsit controller, and put it all back together.Let's hope Notch likes the Model F revival so much that he bankrolls the creation of a whole new generation of 107 key and 87 key capacitive buckling spring keyboards with modern layouts.
Well, I can dream, anyway.
^^ I'm dreaming too, TKL Model F, oO.. I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
I would have jumped in with both feet. (As long as Elrick let me)
Any updates? :)
I am still aiming for them to ship from China at the end of May, but I have run into some delays as I work with the factory.
I will be making some extra F62/F77 keyboards so yours may even ship with the early round if you haven't ordered already but order soon - first come, first served (even though the early bird round has closed).
One pressing issue is the development of the updated xwhatsit controller being used for this project. wcass has been working on this project and could use some help prototyping (assembling a PCB with SMT components and checking his work).
He has posted a DT thread so feel free to discuss over there, or you can also discuss on the IC thread for this project to avoid duplication of threads. Wcass's thread: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/a-smaller-xwhatsit-t13479.html
Alright guys we have Pantone red lined up it seems, lets see if we can can get a classic IBM color to a reasonable cost. The color I am thinking of comes from this beautiful machinethat render looks real nice. black caps would complete the look.
(Attachment Link)
This Olive Green IBM Selectric II is a beauty and would lend its color nicely to the Model F Keyboard. It would also fit in with the idea of reinventing a classic IBM machine that this group buy embodies.
My suggestion is Pantone PQ-5615 C
Here is a mock-up of this color on this Model F77 remastering
(Attachment Link)
If anyone has a different variation of this color or a Pantone swatch they think is more true to the original Selectric we can use that but I think this would be fairly close. I want to get as close as possible to the original color so if someone has a better way of finding the rgb color on the Selectric I'd love the input.
I went ahead and found a pic of a Kish with black caps(thanks ghostjuggernaut for having such a nice board[hope I'm not breaking any unwritten rules borrowing your pic]) and changed the color(I want this to happen) to a similar green. The original image isn't powder coated(I don't think) so it isn't quite accurate but gives a pretty good idea of the colorway.Wow nice job bro. I really like this color.
(Attachment Link)
Plz make this real...
Project update: things moving, but moving slower than hoped for.
They couldn't find a machine to attach the springs, meaning 15,000 springs/flippers need to be attached by hand for the ~207 keyboards ordered.
The project will not be rushed to make a deadline if it compromises the component quality or quality of assembly of the keyboards. I am requiring the factory to hand test every flipper/spring to help ensure quality standards. Then I will be testing each keyboard key by key before it ships.
I am currently hoping they ship from China in June - I realize this is later than my original end of May expectations.
Project update: things moving, but moving slower than hoped for.
Based on estimates from the factory they need more time than what they budgeted. They couldn't find a machine to attach the springs, meaning 15,000 springs/flippers need to be attached by hand for the ~207 keyboards ordered.
The project will not be rushed to make a deadline if it compromises the component quality or quality of assembly of the keyboards. I am requiring the factory to hand test every flipper/spring to help ensure quality standards. Then I will be testing each keyboard key by key before it ships.
This group buy project will be done right even though we do not have the massive resources for hardware production and quality control that IBM had in the 1980s.
The updated ribbon pitch, more compact xwhatsit Model F USB controller (currently being tested over on DT) is not holding up the project just yet.
I am currently hoping they ship from China in June - I realize this is later than my original end of May expectations.
I may extend the final round deadline given the delayed project timeline.
Production officially starts next week according to the factory! The barrels, flippers, and zinc cases are up first. The zinc case molds need to be made, and that process could take a few weeks.
I recommend extra inner foam and flippers/springs at a minimum.
did the meetup for people to try the prototypes happen yet? contemplating getting an F77 but would like to see some 3rd party reviews esp from people who have tried model F's before.Yea me too mane I'm on the fence here
contemplating getting an F77 but would like to see some 3rd party reviews esp from people who have tried model F's before.
Yep that's right Elrick! Even if the factory is on schedule and ships by the end of June, it would still take time for sea mail from China to NY and then for me to test, inspect, and ship keyboard by keyboard for 207 keyboards.Ok I'll wait for the review on the early bird
Sixty and bocah there was interest in a NYC keyboard meetup but I haven't seen much activity recently on the thread. I'm open to a meetup in Manhattan. Right now the best indication of the F62/F77 quality is to take a look and listen to the 2160p UHD video I posted on YouTube in January. It's high resolution and the sound is clear so each viewer can draw their own conclusions about the prototype sound. The prototypes sound good but I am confident that the production units will be even better!
Why reviews should be taken with a grain of salt: I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer's sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro's should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like "The sound is not the same as my original Model F." Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT's in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F's. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it's not just the sound - the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience - a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F's take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
Expected timeline as of now:
Sea mail shipping from China to the US usually takes 2-4 weeks from what I can gather (probably closer to 4 weeks). After that I have to test and ship each unit to everyone. As an update I am hoping for everything to be assembled and ship from China by the end of June, so we are probably looking at the keyboards shipping to you in July/August. This is later than the original estimate.
I still have the option of air mail shipping from China, which would save 2-4 weeks (probably closer to 4 weeks) for those who want the keyboard ASAP. So far 4 keyboards are being shipped this way. The price is still $75/keyboard.
Henz it's due to cost. $75/keyboard is the air mail cost for DHL (in bulk, it may be less). Sea mail is what I planned for in my budget - you're looking at a fraction of that amount for sea mail.
Henz it's due to cost. $75/keyboard is the air mail cost for DHL (in bulk, it may be less). Sea mail is what I planned for in my budget - you're looking at a fraction of that amount for sea mail.
They already started screaming about the current shipping costs, so imagine the heart-attacks and rabid hatred out there for poor Ellipse if he started charging all shipments by Air, Geekhack would go into meltdown quicker than Fukushima on a Friday ;D .
For many of us early purchasers, it would be nice to have complimentary air mail included since it seems we will be approaching the 6 month mark.
It's nothing personal, but I will not exceed 6 months on this. And with all these delays, us early folk will be up against that window.For many of us early purchasers, it would be nice to have complimentary air mail included since it seems we will be approaching the 6 month mark.
Agreed.
I almost forgot about this purchase altogether.
I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.
I too am worried about the 180 day paypal constraint.
I know it's tough trusting someone here with your hard earned cash since I myself lost lots, from people I had personally trusted here on GH Central.
All I can say is that I've bought from Ellipse before when he restored IBM keyboards from scratch and they returned in nearly new condition, he did a wonderful job on all of them without making any mistakes.
Not that my word means anything here on GH but at least give him some trust because without that, you can forget about ever owning a nice keyboard. There are rip-off merchants everywhere so beware but also consider if you can't afford to lose your dough on a keyboard, then you shouldn't be buying them in the first place.
Always buy what you can afford to lose and that's my word for today........
So one should expect to loose their money? That is what i got out of this^^
Is there no way to do some kind of paypal refund/repayment in order to extend the 180-day window? I would not be opposed to that. I do like the keyboard but I want to be safe with my money, as it is a considerably amount.
jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)
henz I've only assigned serials so far to those who reserved one. You can still place an order and reserve a serial for the early bird round (if it's not already reserved), at least through the end of May.
ika if we are getting too close to the 6 month deadline for some people I think you have a good idea. The only thing is that you'd need to place the new order first by credit or debit card (or mail a check!) and then I'd refund your paypal order. My paypal was frozen and I no longer accept payment through that method.
I will be shipping out mostly in the order they were received so those who ordered earliest will get theirs tested and shipped first
jjnist there is an ultra compact case option that will soon be available for both designs (F62 and F77)
PayPal is a truly monstrous historical artifact primarily relied upon due to buyer superstition and convention.
And there will be time before the end of the final round to see a small case prototype keyboard of both F62 and F77 before ordering the ultra compact case versions, if you'd prefer to wait.
It was supposed to start a few weeks ago. I am now expecting the keyboards to ship from China in July. The factory stated that the molds would have been done earlier this month.
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) . I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.
Yes they are expensive now given the low production volume and high manufacturing standards, but wait until the final round ends :) . I'm sure some people are buying extra brand new keyboards to sell at a higher price once in the coming months after the group buy ends.
Those buying EXTRAS, will definitely post them on Ebay and watch the addicts go crazy for them ;) .
Not sure yet. Probably a month or two after early bird round orders are delivered. The case molds were delayed over a month so we are behind schedule.
Yep I'm up for a testing meetup in Manhattan.
The USB cables are detachable for all keyboards. For the ultra compact case I expect the USB to be detachable without needing to open the case.
Currently there is an issue with extra voltage on the xwhatsit controller which was recently redesigned for the ultra compact cases to allow the cables to be detachable from the outside. If anyone who knows electrical engineering/circuit design can help please PM me - I think that the resistor/capacitor values may need to change as the trace lengths are shorter.
Nope it doesn't take long. The case opens with 4 regular screws.
In the video I only had the clip installed on the F62 and not the F77 IIRC.
Also an update - the F62/F77 case mold tooling is expected to be ready in the next 1-2 weeks. Then the factory will send me for my approval a die cast sample, the very first die cast Model F part in 2+ decades!
A major milestone: we passed $100,000 in orders this weekend (including shipping)!
Also an update - the F62/F77 case mold tooling is expected to be ready in the next 1-2 weeks. Then the factory will send me for my approval a die cast sample, the very first die cast Model F part in 2+ decades!
cant wait, this is going to be awsome. What is the current timeline that the earlybirds will ship?I try to forget I have this coming to me... but it's about all I think about...
cant wait, this is going to be awsome. What is the current timeline that the earlybirds will ship?I try to forget I have this coming to me... but it's about all I think about...
henz it's expected to ship from china in late july/august at the earliest. then it takes probably a month to ship by sea mail to me, and then I have to test each one before shipping it.
For those who haven't been following recently, there were significant delays on the factory's side which was disappointing. The molds for the die cast zinc cases went into production about a month later than the factory's initial timeline stated.
henz it's expected to ship from china in late july/august at the earliest. then it takes probably a month to ship by sea mail to me, and then I have to test each one before shipping it.
For those who haven't been following recently, there were significant delays on the factory's side which was disappointing. The molds for the die cast zinc cases went into production about a month later than the factory's initial timeline stated.
Can't decide between the normal case and the compact case... will we get pictures of it soon? The CAD pics on the site don't help too much. :(
And open until November... nice! Maybe someone can upload pictures of their compact case? :D
I am going with the keycap mold production Ludovician.Do you think we'll have photos of the compact case by November? I can wait until then. Thank you! :)
nothing4me we will not be getting any compact case photos soon unfortunately. I am focused on production of the original case keyboards but hope to get the ultra compact cases in the coming months (hopefully with or soon after the early bird shipment). My goal for the ultra compact cases is a regular CNC milled aluminum custom keyboard case similar in appearance to the KMAC Mini or the like.
Some people are ordering just the spare ultra compact case (includes the ultra compact bottom inner assembly) if they can't decide between the cases and don't want to order extra full keyboards. All other parts are expected to be interchangeable.
I am focused on production of the original case keyboards but hope to get the ultra compact cases in the coming months (hopefully with or soon after the early bird shipment). My goal for the ultra compact cases is a regular CNC milled aluminum custom keyboard case similar in appearance to the KMAC Mini or the like.
Die cast metal case molds should be finished this week! Here are some photos from the factory::p This dirty ***** is going to be popping model Fs left and right. :p
I wonder how much these molds weigh - they must be 100+ pounds I would think?I bet, that second to last photo has a huge chunk of metal in it!!!
I wonder how much these molds weigh - they must be 100+ pounds I would think?
ThoughtArtist you are not the only one - quite a few people I've been chatting with are selling off some of their keyboards and other things for these Brand New Model F reproductions.
Does anyone have experience with product marketing and want to support the project? I could definitely use some help/advice to get as many of these units made as possible before the end of the final round.
The very first die cast F62 and F77 cases have been cast! This week they will be powdercoated and mailed to me for approval.
The very first die cast F62 and F77 cases have been cast! This week they will be powdercoated and mailed to me for approval.
:o :o :o It's Happening......bringing back the Model-F keyboard in it's ORIGINAL Design, what perfection. :o :o :o
The original design is robust, and I appreciate that, but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
I'm tempted to get both cases and Swap the innards from one to the other every now and then.
Yeah, I'm tempted to swap to the smaller case and just wait-wait-wait, but there's something super nice about the big ass bezel of the kish, too :)
but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
The original design is robust, and I appreciate that, but I think the compact aluminum in HHKB layout is going to really be the showstopper here.
Yeah, I'm tempted to swap to the smaller case and just wait-wait-wait, but there's something super nice about the big ass bezel of the kish, too :)
The very first die cast Model F keyboard cases to come out of the Brand New Model F metal molds, with no secondary finishing operations or powdercoating done yet:
The factory did a good job with these. My first few months working on this project last year, I didn't know that the die cast metal parts came out "rough" out of a mold, lines and marks and all, and then had to be fixed up.
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The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
are these supposed to be the ultra compact case?No.
The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
Kishy's original F62 weighing 3,025 grams: http://kishy.ca/?attachment_id=956
The very first die cast metal cases arrived today and they are great! These sample cases are even heavier than the originals! The F77 is about 1.2 pounds heavier than my original F77 and the F62 is about 0.9 lbs heavier than kishy's original F62 Kishsaver.
YES, a genuine SKULL Crusher Keyboard.
Who the hell needs a Glock when you've got one of these babies, ready for action 8) .
Is the powdercoat going to look like this? :D
http://norbauerwebshareassets.blob.core.windows.net/props/novatouch-QandA-1.jpg
$120,000+ in orders so far (including shipping)!
Here's the order breakdown for HHKB split right shift vs. standard style shift: about 114 split right shift keyboards ordered out of 265 keyboards ordered so far (43% of keyboards ordered up to now will be HHKB style split right shift).
An update - the PCBs are expected to go into production next week. Everyone is getting the compact xwhatsit controller that uses the standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable.
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
If you aint into CLASSICS then look elsewhere, this keyboard is NOT for that geezer. The Model-F is unique and anyone that say they love using a Model-F, MUST accept it's true form with no adulteration whatsoever.
It's like asking for a Dodge Challenger then adding Hyundai Panels to it, God have mercy on your Soul for ever doing that type of sick and perverted thing 8) .
You can go for the ultra compact cases if you like the metal look, as those are hard anodized, though I recommend the classic style, original cases which the vast majority are going with.
If you aint into CLASSICS then look elsewhere, this keyboard is NOT for that geezer. The Model-F is unique and anyone that say they love using a Model-F, MUST accept it's true form with no adulteration whatsoever.
It's like asking for a Dodge Challenger then adding Hyundai Panels to it, God have mercy on your Soul for ever doing that type of sick and perverted thing 8) .
I like classics, but in this case, modernization can be a good thing. When these keyboards where originally made, portability and mouse usage where not considered like they are today. Modern computing is much different than in 1984 with its rigid, dedicated terminals. I appreciate the classic design, but I also have to think about how I actually use a computer now. A modernized, lighter weight and space saving design that keeps the core desired typing technology the same fits into this.
This is a simple evolution, which will be much welcomed by some who appreciate Model F buckling spring technology but want a more versatile design to fit their current needs.
Just look at the evolution of the guy in your avatar, he's so much more knowledgeable than Elrick..but then again, he's probably not drunk or angry either. :o
A production update:
Here are photos of the very first powdercoated zinc Model F cases. Please disregard the colors of the photos and the powdercoating textured finish as they are not accurate. I expect to be getting more samples in hand later this month.
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Just look at the evolution of the guy in your avatar, he's so much more knowledgeable than Elrick..but then again, he's probably not drunk or angry either. :o
So if no one believes with your view point then they MUST be either drunk or angry well in the REAL world, that is what is known as a Free Discussion.
Shall NEVER select a keyboard that wants to copy itself as an Idiot HHKB because if I ever loved it, I would purchase it BUT never delude myself into thinking that every custom made keyboard on this planet, should look exactly like my HHKB ;) . If you want a portable Keyboard isn't the HHKB exactly that to begin with? For the limp-wristed here the Model-F version will NOT be lighter than any of your HHKBs so where does that leave you when it comes to moving it about? All you would have done is disfigure an original keyboard that was never suppose to be portable hence it's size and weight. All those crying about weight, shall be leaving their HHKB disfigurements at home because surprise, surprise it is still too heavy for them to carry around.
You lot here know nothing about acquiring and using different styles of keyboards and enjoying them for what they offer, something completely different from any Cherry or Thorpie creation. The Model-F was and always will be the Perfect Keyboard from a bygone era (once manufactured in the US), that is being resurrected for all of us here today. Appreciate it's original form because it's beautiful as is. Sorry if I don't want to felch you for approval sunshine but this is the REAL world and thus far, expressing my viewpoints will never be restricted when it comes to this truly REAL Model-F Keyboard.
Clint Eastwood is right, you lot are completely overly sensitive to everything, time to find a pair and man up here, instead of crying about what someone says - typical youngsters always thinking everyone needs to keep them happy and worshiped on a constant basis to help them feel valued in Life, unfortunately for you lot here it will never happen 8) .
That's right cjhard. I will only be able to check the colors and powdercoating quality when I have them in hand - I can't tell from the photos.
Giorgio the Model M and Model F keys do not function on a flat back plate. The goal of the project is to reproduce the original Model F keyboards. I will not be offering adapters.
What do you mean joey? I am making full one piece key sets in standard pearl/pebble and also black. You can order spare key sets now on the modelfkeyboards.com site.You answered it :P
Every keyboard with keys comes with a full set of keys, not just the ones on the keyboard.Great! I don't know if I'll order another set, not really a fan of blanks.
Here are photos of the very first powdercoated zinc Model F cases. Please disregard the colors of the photos and the powdercoating textured finish as they are not accurate. I expect to be getting more samples in hand later this month.
My sets come with the legends (dye sublimated) as well - not just blanks.The black sets are only blank.
right Joey.Red
And here is an update on the case molds. The factory has finally completed their draft powdercoating and color mixing of all color options and will be mailing me the sample case parts this week.
Please note that the colors below are not at all accurate and I hope to take better photos once the samples are in hand.
That being said, the True Red color looks really nice in these photos when powdercoated - this is an "early bird" only limited edition color offering and is an extra cost option (silver gray is the same thing).
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right Joey.
And here is an update on the case molds. The factory has finally completed their draft powdercoating and color mixing of all color options and will be mailing me the sample case parts this week.
Please note that the colors below are not at all accurate and I hope to take better photos once the samples are in hand.
That being said, the True Red color looks really nice in these photos when powdercoated - this is an "early bird" only limited edition color offering and is an extra cost option (silver gray is the same thing).
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The powdercoated case samples came in today and the factory did a good job. I will be asking the factory to add a little more gray to darken the Off-White/Beige paint color, and the Silver Gray color is a little too bluish/too light.
Industrial Gray was a close match to my original IBM Industrial SSK plastic case; True Red and Black also came out well.
The powdercoating on the Brand New Model F keyboards is in my view an even higher quality process than that of the originals - it feels a lot more protective and less likely to flake - but time will tell I guess.
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I have a question about the keys. Where do you order them and what colors are you doing? I didn't even know you was doing XT style keys.
Are you doing some brilliant white sets and different colored legends?
Ir0n I am making the keys. The key options are on the following page on the web site: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/set-of-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Unicomp will be supplying most of the custom sets and keys like brilliant white, etc.
henz I re-sent your order confirmation.
jorgenslee I recommend the classic original style case. The powdercoating is very solid feeling, at least on the prototype cases. I think the powdercoating can hold up for several decades like the originals, but only time will tell I guess.
Here are the very first of the factory-made compact xwhatsit PCBs! Production of the compact xwhatsit controllers has finished but the capacitive PCBs are not yet ready. This photo shows two assembled with components and one test PCB with just solder paste.
man, i have pretty much quit this keyboard hobby, but of the 2 outstanding group buys (GH60 and F77) i am looking forward to my F77 more than most group buys i have been a part of over my 4+ year history at geekhack.Same! It's looking good ellipse!!! keep up the good work.
i want mine nowwwwwwww
We are 7 keyboards away from an even 300 keyboards ordered!
$135,000 in orders so far!
I will be shipping each keyboard after testing it. I am not testing all 300 before shipping anything.
We are now looking at these leaving China in November in my estimate :(. I will not ship out anything that is below my standards for this project.
Sure here's the update: 9/1/16 update - we are in production: As a general update the barrels, flippers, capacitive PCBs, xwhatsit controller PCBs, case molds, and ribbon cables finished production and I need to get the die cast zinc cases themselves, the ultra compact cases, the key molds and keys themselves, and the inner assembly plates made.
As mentioned before the two threads for the most part have different content, unless the update is extra important. By mistake I posted the GB update in the IC thread (corrected now).
The GB thread will continue to focus on production updates and questions related to placing and modifying orders, including order options, logistics, and customizations like the limited edition True Red case color that was recently approved for production.
SUMMARY OF EVERYTHING THIS BUY INCLUDES
* Basic keyboard models
* One-piece keycaps
* Compact case
* Extra innards
* other things?
NOT YET STARTED PRODUCTION
* Ultra compact cases
* Key molds
* Inner assembly plates
Current plan is for these to enter production on DATE and be finished around DATE.
IN PRODUCTION
* Regular size cases
Current plan is for these to be finished and shipped to me by DATE.
FINISHED PRODUCTION
* barrels, flippers, etc
* PCBs
* controlers
SHIPPED TO ME
* Nothing?
ORDERS LOCKED
* Anything?
STILL CAN BE ORDERED
* Single-piece keycaps
* Flippers
* Other innards
* etc.
Orders for these will close on DATE
Not really sure where all the concerns are coming from.
Thanks for responding Ellipse. If you could keep the OP updated as things change, that would be lovely. :thumb:Not really sure where all the concerns are coming from.
I'm not concerned about the buy finishing, I just wanted a summary of the current status of everything. Ellipse has posted regular updates, which is great, but they are scattered across two threads and it's impossible to get a full picture of where we're at without reading both. I'm just asking for typical, simple group buy organization stuff.
The factory told me that they have finished the die casting for the zinc cases! Now they need to do the final CNC machining operations on those die cast cases, and then do the powdercoating. I still need to receive the powdercoating samples. I rejected the last powdercoating prototypes and they are starting from scratch - reformulating everything to get it right - color and texture.
don't expect us to be done before the holidays at this point.
A quote from a well known US-based firm was more than five times the cost of the project's current supplier in China. A PCB manufacturing quotation I got for the xwhatsit controllers a couple years ago was about ten times as costly if I recall correctly. And given the great quality control and tolerances that the Chinese supplier has adhered to so far, it's tough to imagine the parts could be improved any further for this project.
Look at these nice powdercoated texture samples! The factory has finally done a good job with the samples. The industrial gray and silver gray textures could be improved a little. Of course I will get the actual samples soon for final approval.
They photographed each sample on top of an original IBM F 107 powdercoated case from August 1988 for comparison (I had sent them the case for them to match).
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hashbaz I ordered extra red cases - if anyone wants to upgrade to the true red case it is still possible for the early round.
red case upgrades are $75 extra. Anyone interested can place an order for 75 units of the following store item and then choose free local pickup if they would like to upgrade. http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
Here is a breakdown of the number of F62 and F77 keyboards ordered by location:
Australia 15
QLD 5
WA 4
VIC 3
NSW 2
ACT 1
Here is a breakdown of the number of F62 and F77 keyboards ordered by location:
Australia 15
QLD 5
WA 4
VIC 3
NSW 2
ACT 1
Just pissed off that the morons in NSW and Victoria haven't jumped on this further >:D . Plus they have the bulk of the population here in this Penal Settlement, hence what gives?
I've done my part for NSW, I wonder who the other person is!
Rest of the world must be scared of shipping and customs. I could buy a decent keyboard on that budget.
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
Canada 6
AB 3
ON 1
QC 1
BC 1
KY 5
I've got two of the AB ones... WHO'S THE RIVAL WITH THE OTHER?Canada 6
AB 3
ON 1
QC 1
BC 1
Woot! I'll have the only one in Quebec :cool:
Sorry, the only case options are the original case and ultra compact case. There is no low profile case. They are both about the same height.
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
What's up with Cali? Almost all the stuff I sell goes there. And that's including stuff from different hobbies.
United Kingdom 16
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Any feedback on the rough CNC milled ultra compact case prototypes?
Any feedback on the rough CNC milled ultra compact case prototypes?
It looks good, nice and THICK just the way I love my women 8) .
As long as it can crush any cranium with a single swing, it's perfect in every way. This casing has to be built for survival instinct, for the future when everything goes pear-shaped.
So far it's looking good Ellipse. Can't wait to see the colours applied and presented.
What extra parts do you recommend ordering? Extra flippers, barrels, and springs anything else? I'm kind of ocd with parts and want to make sure my keybaord will last for decades.
What extra parts do you recommend ordering? Extra flippers, barrels, and springs anything else? I'm kind of ocd with parts and want to make sure my keybaord will last for decades.
The foam mat.
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
To make it easier I am waiving extra shipping charges if anyone wants to place another order just for extra parts. I will combine orders if you order anything in the next month or two - you can just choose "free local pickup" for the next order. However if you order an extra keyboard you'd still need to cover shipping.
Yes you can order an extra PCB which includes the controller PCB and the capacitive PCB. For this option just order 40 units of this product and specify which PCB you are looking for (F62/F77, normal/split shift/scumnc layout). http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/other-customizations-in-1-increments/
You can make a separate order and I will combine the orders when everything is ready to ship.
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
Ellipse please explain this theory I have inside my head.
If all the foam was made at the same time period and twenty years into the future the foam inside your immaculate F77 keyboard starts to disintegrate, what happens with the spare foam that was bought?
Wouldn't they also start to disintegrate due to being made at the same time and I know for a fact all FOAM deteriorates over time no matter, even if they are vacuum sealed and stored away from the sun, they will still fall apart when taken out of their enclosure.
Have bought and dealt with numerous foams over the years and the only one that lasts is insulation foam that comes out of cans which have a high glass particle content.
The extra foam mat, barrels, and flippers/springs are the most important extra parts that everyone should order. The foam holds the barrels and keys in place. Over time, older Model F keyboard barrels become "wobbly" as the foam disintegrates. The foam is designed to keep even pressure between the barrels and the top inner assembly plate (and also to help keep dust out of the inner assembly and away from the capacitive PCB).
Ellipse please explain this theory I have inside my head.
If all the foam was made at the same time period and twenty years into the future the foam inside your immaculate F77 keyboard starts to disintegrate, what happens with the spare foam that was bought?
Wouldn't they also start to disintegrate due to being made at the same time and I know for a fact all FOAM deteriorates over time no matter, even if they are vacuum sealed and stored away from the sun, they will still fall apart when taken out of their enclosure.
Have bought and dealt with numerous foams over the years and the only one that lasts is insulation foam that comes out of cans which have a high glass particle content.
I have looked up different foam manufacturer specifications and have seen that some types of foam can survive years if unused/uncompressed. That is why I suggest keeping an unused foam for later. And yes ccc it might be a good idea to keep the extra foam in a cold place, in a sealed bag. No one knows for sure how long the McMaster Carr foam used in this project will last.
That material is expensive Elrick!
it is the xwhatsit Model F USB controller - more info here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ and here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
it is the xwhatsit Model F USB controller - more info here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ and here: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
Got the controller model handy?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Please do share on this thread if you are able to get TMK working on xwhatsit's controller.
Not sure if this was mentioned before but the factory is going ahead with the high quality double walled cardboard boxes with the printed project graphics.
We've passed $155,000 in orders!
We've passed $155,000 in orders!
And who said no body wants Model-Fs any more ;D .
We are now living in a Keyboard Renaissance Movement where a lot more people are interested in historical keyboards. You've got past technologies that the younger generation are eager to find out about and own a part of this.
Also it's the ONLY United States key switch designed for the public to use, so it's worth resurrecting this again to see the effect it will have on all those addicted to the standard which has become CherryMX based. Get them to use something far better and worship something again from the past brought back to Life.
You should call this Keyboard a Phoenix Version.
You Ellipse, are a good ****.
Those photos made me hard.
xoxo :thumb:
Here is a breakdown of the 348 F62/F77 keyboards ordered so far, by general flipper placement/PCB type.
Overall we have 170 US ANSI, 150 HHKB style, 27 ISO, and 1 DVORAK.
166ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
81HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
65HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace
24ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
3ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace
1HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift), HHKB with split backspace
1HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys
1DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)
1HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift
1ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout
1ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift
Yes here are prototype photos - the compact cases in these photos are not finished yet! https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59umff/photos_hundreds_of_brand_new_model_f_keyboard_f62/?st=iw44m1mb&sh=4435d339
The ultra compact modern cases are all aluminum. The originals are zinc - zinc is much heavier but both are very strong and should hold up well. For the F62/F77 keyboards (both original style and compact style cases) you're looking at several pounds of metal per keyboard: zinc/aluminum for the case and inner plates made of steel.
Orders are now open for the ultra compact cases but they are lower priority than the originals. I am prioritizing shipments by serial number, which are assigned generally in the sequence of when I receive everyone's orders.
The early bird round is almost closed, but I ordered extra keyboards for the early bird round so that if you order in the coming weeks you will likely have your order included in the early bird round.
The factory is still working on the key molds and production first-runs for some remaining parts which I need to approve before everything goes into production. I was expecting this to be finished around this point but that means we are now looking more like February or March for these keyboards to ship from China. And if the first-run samples are not good, I would rather hold up production until they pass my quality standards even if it causes further delay in the project.
Yes here are prototype photos - the compact cases in these photos are not finished yet! https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59umff/photos_hundreds_of_brand_new_model_f_keyboard_f62/?st=iw44m1mb&sh=4435d339
The ultra compact modern cases are all aluminum. The originals are zinc - zinc is much heavier but both are very strong and should hold up well. For the F62/F77 keyboards (both original style and compact style cases) you're looking at several pounds of metal per keyboard: zinc/aluminum for the case and inner plates made of steel.
Orders are now open for the ultra compact cases but they are lower priority than the originals. I am prioritizing shipments by serial number, which are assigned generally in the sequence of when I receive everyone's orders.
The early bird round is almost closed, but I ordered extra keyboards for the early bird round so that if you order in the coming weeks you will likely have your order included in the early bird round.
The factory is still working on the key molds and production first-runs for some remaining parts which I need to approve before everything goes into production. I was expecting this to be finished around this point but that means we are now looking more like February or March for these keyboards to ship from China. And if the first-run samples are not good, I would rather hold up production until they pass my quality standards even if it causes further delay in the project.
Will these keyboards need bolt modding down the road?
Will these keyboards need bolt modding down the road?
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.
Sign me up for two.
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.This is a joke? If not a joke, I am a little scared
Sign me up for two.
This will be really fantastic in the next iteration. Lighter springs, cherry MX mount, slimmer abs cases.
Sign me up for two.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Evolution is fixing mistakes. What you're asking is creating mistakes.
Sorry Giorgio none of those options will ever be available. Those who miss the final deadline early next year will be out of luck :(.
Though the Model F does feel much smoother and lighter to type on due to the higher quality of materials in the Model F compared to the Model M in my experience.
Yes supa, the one-piece keys are being made from brand new molds currently in production.
:-)
It never hurts to try :-) but I'm sure that in the next years we'll see some genial improvements
I don't think we will see the board you are looking for from Ellipse. I don't see him bastardizing this board for what you are looking for.
Bastardizing. LOL. It's called evolution.
Evolution is fixing mistakes. What you're asking is creating mistakes.
Yeah really. There is a reason Ellipse took on this project. He is recreating some great and highly desirable keyboards what you want him to do is far from evolution giorgio.
IBM caps have bars right?
An update - we are three keyboards away from passing $170,000 in orders!
The factory needs an extra week from their scheduled shipment of the first-run parts for my inspection. The key molds need some more work to make sure they produce parts to spec. Hopefully the first-runs ship next week.
Below are some photos of the F62/F77 original style cases palletized and ready for storage at the factory. These are heavy boxes! They put 8 per box, so each box probably weighs 40-50 pounds - just the cases!
Once all of the parts have finished assembly and the factory QC procedures and have been packed for storage, then the factory will bring all the boxes together and assemble the keyboards with the configuration options specified in everyone's order forms.
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Yes you can order a black split right shift (1.75U) key as part of the HHKB set.Nice... Where should I message you about getting mine with that setup... I ordered enough parts to do both, but I think I went with none split shift HHKB split bckspace.
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What is a flipper?Someone who works down at a Pizzeria ;D .
jknight-replied over PM
steve - yes the USB is detachable and replaceable - it is a micro USB cable. And here's an approximate look at the expected HHKB style layout: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/are-there-any-photos-of-the-hhkb-layout/
Yep the 1U function key is to the right of right shift for the HHKB style layout option.
Just put up my HHKB for sale to get some funds for this. :D
The DHL Express shipment containing the sample boxes, foam, springs, and compact case keyboard prototypes has arrived! Doing the testing now...
The working Compact Case F62 and F77 keyboard first-runs pass inspection!Woah the compact case looks pretty sweet. Trying to convince myself that I don't need one...
A video will be up in a few hours including an unboxing, teardown, and typing test where I reached 100 WPM on the compact F62 and 90+ on the second test with the compact F77.
The keyboards will not look like the photos below! The cases are just the raw aluminum and do not have the hard anodized finishing. The keys are Unicomp - the new key molds are not yet ready. Please see the two metal bottom case sheets that are what the regular gray and black hard anodized options will look like. The factory did a great job on the hard anodizing - very high end looking!
The first-runs are an important part of the manufacturing process even though they add some time to the process. I have two pages of feedback for the factory so far on small improvements. You can see some of the areas that need improvement:
-Adding more holes to the compact cases to ensure a near-gapless fit between the case parts
-The top inner assembly holes for the barrels were about 0.2mm too large
-The boxes need to be a little bigger to fit the extra parts (keys, etc.)
-The boxes should have dark blue text, not black
-The bezel has too much space above the top row of keys compared to the bottom row
-The factory did not send the most recent update of the top inner assembly incorporating some small adjustments
-Flat top screws countersunk into the case should have been used everywhere
-Need better QC on the springs to match the specifications
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The working Compact Case F62 and F77 keyboard first-runs pass inspection!
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Yep the modern cases look good and they are also quite solid despite being much lighter.
We passed $175,000 in orders!
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Nice idea. I would probably add one to my order if there was a noob-friendly kit like this.
Just a suggestion, but it would be nice to have a "repair kit" option to purchase which contained all the things you recommend we stock up on for future servicing of the board (10 barrels, 10 flippers, foam, etc). I still don't really know what I should be getting for that purpose (I'm new to the buckling spring game).
Nice idea. I would probably add one to my order if there was a noob-friendly kit like this.
Would buy such a kit especially since I'm still a noob around Model-Fs. A kit like this would be extremely valuable in any emergency situation.
thanks Elrick, I have added the following to the home page:
Case color options: off-white/beige (to match the originals), Industrial Gray (to match the Industrial SSK), black, silver gray, and Pantone True Red powdercoated paint (original cases); hard anodized black, hard anodized regular gray (ultra compact cases)
I am thinking of making a separate landing page with more photos and with a more modern site layout. A marketing professional sent me this link as an example style to consider: https://britishrailmanual.com/
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/do you sell just the stabilizers? I already have everything else but the bumpers(which I dont care about) on my order.
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Prius, factory delays have continued this month and we are near the start of the Chinese New Year holiday, where the factories close down for several weeks. Therefore I expect to extend the deadline.
Great jhoang!
Prius, factory delays have continued this month and we are near the start of the Chinese New Year holiday, where the factories close down for several weeks. Therefore I expect to extend the deadline.Great to hear! Can't afford it right now since I'm broke. But I'm looking forward to landing my first full-time programming job either this month or next month, so if you do manage to extend it past Jan 31st, I would be ecstatic. :D
Great jhoang!
Correct, I no longer accept PayPal. I accept bank/debit cards, credit cards, and prepaid cards.
Correct, I no longer accept PayPal. I accept bank/debit cards, credit cards, and prepaid cards.
Guess I'll have to get a debit card just for this in that case :(
I for example simply paid by bank transfer, from Germany to US. If i remember correctly there wasn't even a fee, i'd just ask your bank of choice if this is possible!
I would just like to say:
This thread. I approve. OMG.
How about something like this for a "Model F First Aid" kit: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f62-f77-first-aid-repair-kit/
Everyone feel free to choose free shipping to add this kit to an existing order. Here's the first draft product description on the web site:
Here is a kit of spare parts for refurbishing your Brand New Model F keyboard years or decades from now, long after production ends sometime this year. Both kits are compatible with either ultra compact or original case F62/F77 keyboards.
Included:
--1 custom machine-cut inner foam, just in case the original foam loses its elasticity while remaining in its compressed state for years on end, you’ll have a spare.
--10 flippers with springs, in case you accidentally bend a spring out of shape when removing a key or cleaning your F62 or F77 or want to mod your layout and split a shift/backspace on your own in the future to get an extra usable key
--10 barrels in case you spill a sugary beverage in your keyboard and the barrels become sticky.
--Extra set of bumpers in case the originals wear out or you want to change bumper types – please add this store item to your cart if you want this: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
--2 Extra stabilizer inserts – in case some fail or break when trying to remove them from the barrels to change a layout
--An original Industrial SSK (just kidding!)
QuoteI for example simply paid by bank transfer, from Germany to US. If i remember correctly there wasn't even a fee, i'd just ask your bank of choice if this is possible!
What are customs like for Germany? Here in Portugal, they run about 50% of the item value.
Ellipse, once boards are shipping and you start to get your life back, do you fancy re-creating the M15 - sorry I meant the F15?
Ellipse, once boards are shipping and you start to get your life back, do you fancy re-creating the M15 - sorry I meant the F15?
Or dare we even dream someday, some way, for a low-profile, ANSI-layout beamspring!?
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
Elrick: Who was "insisting"? Not me. No need to mis-characterize what I wrote and double-down your lecture on obvious points :)
Sorry, just F62 and F77 as I said before.
The new batch of springs arrived this week from the factory, but they are 0.3mm too small and have been rejected. I hope to get more samples when everyone returns from the Chinese New Year holiday in a couple weeks.
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
Great thanks tameone!
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
Great thanks tameone!I met with someone from Deskthority.
How'd everyone first discover the Model F or Model M keyboard?
What is the point of the "have your orders in by XX/XX/XXXX" Date? Everytime the date is reached it moves up by a month... This has been going on since like October, at least.
Yep Pancake please disregard the changing target dates listed on the web site. The deadline must be extended as long as there continue to be factory delays.
There have been significant production delays with the factory for this project but we are getting to be in good shape now and only have some parts left to make.
What is the point of the "have your orders in by XX/XX/XXXX" Date? Everytime the date is reached it moves up by a month... This has been going on since like October, at least.
Yeah so good to see you read through the thread before **** posting, because that is what this is. If you didn't expect/understand the reasons for the time blow out, you are probably a 12 year old that has his parents bring you the bucket whilst you grind WOW all day and hit your Amazon dash button for more Twinkies. Then complain when the delivery driver comes at the end of the day instead of the morning.
What is the point of your comment? What are you trying to achieve by posting it? How does this contribute to the GB? What answer do you want? Did you read previous answers to more constructive forms of your question?
What do you hope to gain from that post?
Ellipse answers you and tells you delays in factory, parts not up to spec, the fact that this isn't the same as calling up ducky and having them send you 100 boards fresh of the factory floor? In fact its not even the same as having a set of custom key caps made? It is far more complex.
If you just went through a bit of this thread you would probably find that information rather easily and there would be no need for this repetitive bull****, yet you managed to put in a pretty obnoxious way.
WTF do you seriously hope to gain from your post. Have you even ordered anything from this GB or are you just **** posting to get your post count up for a sale or something.
Just explain your intent by posting? Will this magically hurry up the process? Do you need validation for something? Are you annoyed? Do you feel cheated?
Look inside your soul, ask yourself "was this necessary/did it assist in any way, and if not did it contribute to anything" if the answer is no then maybe not in the future kthx.
Pancake, you can check your order by looking through your emails for the order confirmation. As soon as your shipping label is printed I expect to email out the tracking number along with what you ordered.
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
What kind of warning before the end of the final round would everyone recommend?
2 months prior:
-Update this thread
1 month prior:
-Same as 2 Months prior + Post on /r/mk and /r/mm
2 Weeks Prior:
-Another update here
-Another email
1 Week Prior:
-Another post on /r/mm and /r/mk
-Daily bumps on this thread
-Daily emails (include an opt-out link in every one)
1 Day Prior:
-Punch me in the face and tell me to finally f'ing order
Today I tested the very first sample keys from the brand new molds but they are not accurate enough to my CAD files, so they have all been rejected. The factory will adjust the molds and send updated samples in the coming weeks.
Wow, that's so great to see! This is such a tease.
I can see why you rejected them.
You can? What's wrong with them?
As requested, I have started allowing down payments - $100 or more reserves your spot in line from this point onwards, instead of the end of the line a couple months from now. There's no extra cost as you just need to cover the balance when you are ready. Anyone who wants to do the down payment can order 100 units of the store item "other customizations in $1 increments" from www.modelfkeyboards.com/shop
As requested, I have started allowing down payments - $100 or more reserves your spot in line from this point onwards, instead of the end of the line a couple months from now. There's no extra cost as you just need to cover the balance when you are ready. Anyone who wants to do the down payment can order 100 units of the store item "other customizations in $1 increments" from www.modelfkeyboards.com/shop
Wait, how does this work for those of us who have already made an order?
Two questions from someone who hasn't been keeping up with this:
1. I'm primarily interested in an F77 and am just curious other people's thoughts on the ultra compact vs. the more traditional model.
2. If I'm putting in $100 for a "down-payment" do I need to specify the color, whether I'd like an F77 or F62, etc. in the comments when I do so?
Gracias
Ellipse I thought you were getting the caps from Unicomp. What happened there?
Ellipse I thought you were getting the caps from Unicomp. What happened there?
I'm glad I'm not seeing Unicomp keycaps. They probably have the worst molds--they even use deformed keys on fulfilling their production orders. It's disheartening to get keycaps with base stems that aren't even molded completely, and I've had them on all of my Unicomp-ordered boards.
...there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)Woah, that's a lot of keyboards! I feel almost guilty to be adding to your workload by placing an order... but I will. Thanks, :)
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Ellipse=Gon? :(
Yes they are, though you will probably get it by the end of year - there are over 400 keyboards in front of you on line right now :)I paid mine the 28/01/16
Ellipse=Gon? :(
Seriously, a refund is possible?
Ellipse has been in constant contact with us and has been providing concrete updates on the status of the buy.I know I know, i'm just kid, but two years, i find that a little bit too long...
Ellipse has been in constant contact with us and has been providing concrete updates on the status of the buy.I know I know, i'm just kid, but two years, i find that a little bit too long...
sure cjhard, just pay the difference using the store item "$1 increments" and choose free shipping. Your place would not change.
We are looking at mid- to late 2017. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Could you explain that? I don't understand.
So not to stir up discontent, but the original estimate for this group buy was that people would have their keyboards by spring 2016. Ellipse, what is the current estimate for when you will mail out the first finished keyboard to a group buy participant?
If you are looking for a legitimate concern and have time to kill head on over to this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74678.0
Could you explain that? I don't understand.
People in that group buy didn't get their orders and never received a refund. The same guy is now running a new group buy and just kinda ignores questions not related to the new one.
Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
Ya what feng is doing is absolutely not right but your linking his thread put at least me under the impression that group buy was associated with Ellipse, which doesn't seem to be the case, so I really think it's completely irrelevant. Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
I was just pointing out to a moderator that there is a con in progress and it might be a better use of their time to pursue that one instead of the GB containing videos/photos/constant communication/etc.
Stick to what's going on with this project and what Ellipse is doing. I really don't care about anything else.
Makes perfect sense. I know other Group Buys will go pear-shaped but that is not our concern here for this Model-F keyboard.
Thus far Ellipse has ALWAYS provided on going reporting, unlike some other people here on Geekhack that say nothing when running a Group Buy. Part of joining any GB some times you get LUCKY and actually receive something, other times you get your wallet gang-raped by certain scum-bags and receive only contempt and lies.
Just be glad thus far, we all haven't been gaped by anyone here in this F62+F77 section 8) .
I'm really excited about this project. Kind of surprised about the quality issues from the factory... is that normal?
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
So realistically when will you be shipping out the first boards?
Yes Pete, with the number of molds and parts requiring high tolerances to match that of the originals, the project has taken longer.
As noted before, much of the delay is due to rejecting rounds of out of spec prototypes in order to get everything right. It is definitely worth it, seeing the great job the factory has done on the completed parts (barrels, flippers, original die cast powdercoated cases, PCBs, controllers, etc.).
So realistically when will you be shipping out the first boards?
Ellipse obviously would know better, but my estimate is August.
We are looking at mid- to late 2017. Sorry again for the factory delays. As noted before they needed to re-make some of the samples that were not to spec. I would not want to proceed with these out of spec parts in order to meet any original estimated deadlines.
They expect to finish all remaining sample re-makes by the end of March. Then hopefully if everything is approved they can finish up production in the coming few months. Then they need to do the assembly and ship to me. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Then they need to do the assembly and ship to me. Then I will be testing each keyboard one by one and shipping them.
Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Google M/F SSK on deskthority.Any plans for a Model F SSK after this GB is all done? :DFor what? Lot_lizard is doing this already..
Please link
Sorry no. I suggest the F77 which is very close to the SSK except the function keys are embedded as a second layer on the F77 as opposed to being separate keys.
Sorry no. I suggest the F77 which is very close to the SSK except the function keys are embedded as a second layer on the F77 as opposed to being separate keys.
The F77 is perfection personified, anyone else wanting something different needs their head read and then firmly detached from their body >:D .
The F77 is the ONLY keyboard you will ever need in Life, just as Moses had chiseled out the the full commandments on stone and through his anger, broke the most important section that clearly mentioned - the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Religious scholars always seem to ignore that vital piece of info from God :thumb: .
The F77 is the ONLY keyboard you will ever need in Life, just as Moses had chiseled out the the full commandments on stone and through his anger, broke the most important section that clearly mentioned - the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Religious scholars always seem to ignore that vital piece of info from God :thumb: .
- the F77 being used to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Nope I would not put something out without thoroughly testing it first, especially given the costs involved.
Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
DO me a favor and ship mine first and Elricks last mkay? :D
We are running low on Compact F62 and Compact F77 keyboards and spare cases - please get in your order soon if you'd like it to make the early bird cut!
Also another reminder that I am offering free shipping if you'd like to add a First Aid kit to your order - just choose free/other shipping. The First Aid kits come with spare parts that will be great for repairs long after production ends this year.Does in this case the free shipping apply to the First Aid Kit only, or the whole order? Because this would save me quite some money :)
We are running low on Compact F62 and Compact F77 keyboards and spare cases - please get in your order soon if you'd like it to make the early bird cut!
Running low overall or just the early bird stuff? I don't want to miss it, but I'd also prefer to order as late as possible (because of some financial reasons), so don't really need to be in the early bird round.
3K, free shipping just for the additional accessories order :) as I will combine shipping together.
Nathan allowing additional orders is not delaying the start of production. As noted before the early round has already gone into production with many parts finished (some we are still waiting on) - orders can still come through as I have ordered extras on my own. I have been updating the web site blog at least monthly with status updates. That is always an up to date place to check. Due to factory delays things are taking longer than expected but I will not accept substandard parts to meet the estimated timeline. I have updated the OP.
SHIPPED TO ME
* Current plan is for everything to be finished and shipped to me around mid-year.
Nathan the timeline is not completely outlined, you are correct. I do not have factory-promised deadlines or anything more specific to offer. The expectation is that people start receiving their orders starting mid-2017.
Orders will ship out in the order they are received (generally) and it could take me a month or two to get through testing everything once it's received. The factory is doing the initial quality control and I will only be doing the final pass.
I am going to ask that everyone please be patient as the factory finishes production this year. A lot of people are waiting!
....are you doing all the assembly yourself Ellipse? Or is the factory?
Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
....are you doing all the assembly yourself Ellipse? Or is the factory?Yes, though I am paying the factory for assembly and testing/quality control so I am just going to be the second thorough pass.
seems the factory would be doing the assembly
Yo again, not criticizing for how long it's taking. That is totally understandable. I'm criticizing for the lack of clear status information.
The whole process seems pretty interesting. There are so many obsolete/discontinued objects I would love to reverse engineer and bring back into production.
It would be great to see even more videos and/or photos of the process... Did the the factory engineers think you were crazy, Ellipse?
As much as I want this done quickly, it makes sense that it takes a long time, considering the obstacles, as well as time/care in each keyboard. (I'm actually glad I didn't find out about this until recently, or else I'd be impatiently waiting for 2 years.)
This is without a doubt, THE most challenging group buy EVER on Geekhack. It's the first time a keyboard has been reverse-engineered that isn't the typical MX custom board. This isn't a keycap set or another aluminum slab & pcb board :)
hashbaz I am positing that the lack of status and timeline information is due to the unexpected complications of re-making parts from the 1980s. They have been fixing the prototypes for the past couple months and say they expect to be finished next week. They will update me when they have corrected any remaining issues with the keys/key molds (seems like that's the last major thing we are waiting on before they mail the key samples). They have been unable to meet a timeframe for retooling and re-making parts as I mentioned.
The factory needs another week getting the key sample colors right. They expect to be done by end of next week. Then they can DHL all the final first run parts to me and we can hopefully start production soon after my testing.Great news! Are you getting a full set of first run parts? I'd love to see a keyboard put together with the all first run keys, case, etc.
The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!
The original style cases are made of very high quality zinc and are thus even heavier than the original 4704s!
I love that particular word here on Geekhack;
"HEAVIER"
Gawd praise that magic word and all those who follow the IBM Model-F phenomenon 8) .
Although expecting extreme bollocking by the Post Office so have indeed prepared the wallet orifice for some serious damage here. Not worried really because it's a once in a lifetime receival of something that will never occur again.
Much like a heavy night out in Pattaya, won't be able to sit down for a month when that happens ;) .
Well, against my better judgment I'm in for an industrial grey kishsaver. Figure even if it doesn't dethrone topre I can always make back most of the cost via selling.
Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?
So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...
Is it just me, or does only running two group buys and closing shop seem like a huge waste?
So much work is going into proving out the accuracy of the different components of the keyboard. Things like the tooling and the formulas for the paint and the specs for the springs embody all that work. The actual manufacturing process is comparatively simple. It seems like those toolings and specifications at least must be worth something to some buyer, or maybe there could be a drop later or something...
I agree. I think another group buy in ~ 2 years would be able to generate enough interest to justify another large scale production run. With so much time and money going into the molds and tooling, it's hard to believe they would be discarded after this group buy ends.
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time. Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then. BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.
Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out. That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out, if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied. When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.
Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects. In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute. They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.
That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling. So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.
But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.
I know absolutely nothing about manufacturing, but I think Ellipse once said that some of the tooling/molds wear out with use. However, I can't imagine that they would wear out with such a small production run, and information like the measurements and paint mixture recipes would certainly be reusable. That said, I bet it would cost a bit to store the tooling and molds until another run if there isn't enough demand to keep these keyboards in constant production. I'm completely ignorant of the industry and process, so maybe that doesn't make sense.
In China they can manufacture ANYTHING at this point in time. Making this Keyboard is difficult due to past tolerances achieved with the technology that was available back then. BUT making a keyboard now that feels like the previous Model-F is not an easy task.
Ellipse still sticks to his guns regarding tight tolerances which the Chinese tend to ignore so most of the time is wasted in achieving his dimensions and of course trying it out. That is what it's like when creating anything, you make an experiment in trying it out, if it fails you make another until the PERFECT specimen is achieved and applied. When the keyboard is put together, the most difficult keyboard to build compared to all the lazy/easy PCB tech, separate switches, currently used everywhere.
Unlike here in the West where most molds are stored, in China all molds are recycled again to make new molds for future projects. In China space is valuable and suddenly to start storing multiple molds on the side line not making any money for the owner of the factory, doesn't compute. They will re-use the molds either by breaking them apart and welding other pieces together or simply melting them all down for a completely new pour, for another design.
That is why in China you can't find any OLD molds anywhere because the metal in them is so valuable for recycling. So all those here who think there will be another Model-F manufacture 2 or 5 years from now, can keep on dreaming about that because by the time you save up or hold onto that fantasy of yours, all you would of achieved is in joining the long que of absolute LOSERS, as they all start crying in unison that NO one told me about this.
But rest assured, that someone did tell you here on Geekhack, so you can go quietly to your graves missing out on owning this once in a Life-time keyboard, due to your own ignorance and stupidity.
QuoteHey, when will the next production round start?Hello, yes sorry, but never. We needed molds to build pink toy phallus.
Yes I am still taking early bird orders gaunt, and yes you'll get the full key cap set (103 key).
Yes gaunt regarding the original style die cast cases:
The black, off-white/beige, and Industrial Gray colors are all at no extra charge.
The extra charge colors ($75 extra) are True Red, Silver Gray, and someone just ordered a new color, International Orange (Aerospace Version) which should look great - it is the color used for some NASA space suits.
To get a color of your own costs about $400 to $500.
No custom color offerings are currently available for the compact cases - just black and standard gray hard anodized.
We have a new premium color offering! Anyone else interested in International Orange (Aerospace) for your original style powdercoated case? Someone plans on ordering it for the final round (it would delay any early bird orders unless you'd want it as a spare case with separate shipping).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_orange
Yep horizontal ones are the only ones used on an F62/F77 unless you use the international/ISO enter.
dante I was trying to put together a meetup in Manhattan but there was little to no interest. That offer is still open. I should be getting the finalized first-run parts in a couple weeks if anyone's interested.
In the mean time I posted videos with teardowns and typing tests so you can see and hear the keyboards in operation (these were posted last year and earlier this year). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw
If anyone knows of any upcoming Manhattan tech meetups where it would be appropriate, please let me know. Maybe I can get out to the San Fran area in the coming months as well?
... If you are looking for a True Red, Pantone 19-1664 or Silver Gray Pantone 14-5002 TPX Silver case ...
Here are some photos of the machines that bend the PCBs (IBM used to bend the Model F PCBs). The secret is to heat the PCBs gently and evenly first (see the first two photos of the heater) and then force a bend of the board to the radius I specified to the factory.
...
Pete - comma removed and yes I will not be accepting out of tolerance parts.
Thinking of joining the final production round. Thoughts on compact vs original case? Love the idea of an all metal case and like the modern look but I think I read the original was a bit heavier and obviously more unique. Any personal options after using both Ellipse?
My thought: if you have to get just one, get the original case. The design is more unique, it's heavier, it's powder coated (more textured), and it's made of friggin' zinc!
Yes I agree with Kavik and Elrick - go for the original case if you can! Though both look great in person.
All the first run parts (except keys) are being sent tomorrow by DHL Express! They should arrive by mid-week and then I can start the final QC testing for all parts. I have extra batteries for my micrometer! Keys are expected to be mailed by the end of next week. They are working on the final adjustments of the key molds.
Here are the photos of the cases and outside foam being mailed. The other inner parts are also being mailed so in effect I will be doing the assembly and testing from all newly received parts.
Again please disregard any and all colors and lighting in these photos as they are not accurate or representative of what you will get.
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Yep Kavik these shipped today and are making their way over here as we speak.
I was thinking of attending the Philadelphia keycon at Villanova on 6/24 and bringing these final first run keyboards. Anyone planning on attending?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=195.0
I was thinking of attending the Philadelphia keycon at Villanova on 6/24 and bringing these final first run keyboards. Anyone planning on attending?
Here are the photos of the cases ...
Again please disregard any and all colors and lighting in these photos as they are not accurate or representative of what you will get...
My personal preference is for the original off-white/beige color, F77 version with num pad style right side block.
updated reececonrad - sorry for the delay!
I am typing on a fully assembled new prototype F62!wow.. phenomenal job so far ellipse!
Everything is working very well so far. The powdercoated die cast zinc cases are excellent quality. It was well worth the couple extra months to get the paint job right. The off-white/beige color is almost an exact match to the 1988 F107 case I mailed them as the reference. The texture is the same bumpy, mostly matte but slightly reflective powdercoating as the original. The True Red and Black cases look good. In the next week or two they will mail the Industrial cases.
The capacitive PCBs, controller PCBs, inner foam, and outside foam are all good. Every PCB is being grounded in two spots to the case with 6-32 screws to eliminate the risk of stray capacitive signals.
There were a number of issues that I have told the factory to work on and prioritize for completion as soon as possible. Some notes:
The top inner assembly parts are very good but slightly off spec. The TIA curve is about 1mm off from the ideal. My XT sample has a perfect curve that matches my CAD files exactly so I have asked the factory to remake the samples to this standard. The perfect curve helps ensure a more even pressure on the barrels between the top and bottom inner assembly. The wrong curve can result in wiggly barrels and clicks that are not as sharp so it is important that they get it right. To correct this issue they are going to adjust their tooling and mail corrected parts ASAP.
The compact cases had some issues with the color of the hard anodizing being slightly off. They are adding another couple screws on the bottom to further secure the case.
The product boxes were 2.5mm thickness instead of the 5.0mm I had specified so those were rejected, though the box artwork is well-printed.
Finally the springs are very close to the originals but I want to see a few more spring samples with different materials before the springs go into production.
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Yep it's progressing - definitely slower than their original expected timeline. The months extra for the key molds was frustrating earlier this year but they are expecting to finish up the mold corrections in the next week or so.
The springs have improved sound but the top inner assembly needs to be re-made and accurately curved before the Model F sound is at its sharpest. Currently it's well within the range of the original Model F's that have gone through my refurbishings over the years.
We are getting there - thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory delays.
The feel is very comfortable to type on. Another buckling spring fan in my family hit 112 WPM on 10fastfingers with this first-run F62! You can really notice the difference with new springs that have not been worn out and oxidized after 30 years.
The XT space bar had a weird Rube Goldberg contraption underneath. The 4704 and F-122 space bars were much more straightforward: a single switch with a wire stabilizer. So it won't sound like an XT, but more like the rest of the keys.
We are getting there - thanks to everyone for their patience with the factory delays.
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62::eek: :eek: :eek:
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Typing on the ultra compact F77 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F77:
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Holy crap... That f77 is so beautiful... My hype is growing.
Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:
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Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
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Typing on the ultra compact F77 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F77:
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Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
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Godspeed.
Oh for sure, Classic case is the only case in my mind!!!Typing on the ultra compact F62 prototype! Here are the first photos from the assembled compact F62:I have made the right choice on all black!!!
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Godspeed.
Yeah me too :) Definitely prefer the original F62 case but the F77 in the compact case is looking good!
dotcom I suggest the standard HHKB style mapping for the F62, which will be the expected default configuration (you can change this yourself using the xwhatsit GUI). http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/doc/hhkbp2_basic_layout.png
You can switch between the two on one pcb. The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.
You can switch between the two on one pcb. The difference is when switching to hhkb when you have the standard pcb for ansi/iso, the 1U key and 1.75U key in the right shift area are switched compared to the hhkb pcb, so you get 1U on the left side of the right shift area and 1.75U on the right side.
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Same key but the right shift's two pads are in slightly different places on the standard vs. HHKB PCB. The standard PCB allows for 1U, 1.75U or 2.75U in the right shift, while the HHKB pcb allows only 1.75U, 1U in that location.
Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
Hmmm interesting how much is that?
This is what I went with, well worth the money seeing as you may not be able to find one in the future.Yep - an alternative is to order an extra regular PCB/top inner assembly/inner foam so that you can switch between HHKB style split and regular split. A couple people are doing this.
Hmmm interesting how much is that?
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Wait, now I'm confused. Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form? At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option. Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?
-- Nathan
Yes you can have the HHKB or ANSI arrangement on the hhkb style PCB as well. If interested please select HHKB at checkout and then send me a note for "HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter"
Wait, now I'm confused. Isn't this arrangement (HHKB split right shift, everything else ANSI Enter) exactly what is intended by the "HHKB split right shift and regular 2U-wide Backspace" option on the order form? At least that's what I thought I was getting when I picked that option. Why would someone need to send you a note for this arrangement?
-- Nathan
Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.
Regarding the colors, I think I am set on industrial gray, but do you have a side-by-side comparison of the silver gray and industrial gray? I can't quite picture the difference. Also, do you have any photos of a fully assembled true red or orange keyboard? Seeing the other examples might sway me from industrial gray.
I paid for an Industrial Gray model simply because it is darker, compared to Silver Gray.
Plus Industrial Gray is the first ever model colour used along with IBM Beige, for these type of keyboards. If you want old time precision always go full Retro, that way strangers may think you actually own an original Model-F keyboard built years ago :thumb: .
The "reproduction" aspect is definitely strong, and if I were interested in a gray case I think it would prove very tempting to choose the Industrial variety for that reason, but my own OCD personality type would likely be more concerned about how closely the gray key caps match with the gray casing. Is Silver Gray closer to the gray key caps, or is Industrial Gray? I ask merely to satisfy my own curiosity, though others who do want a gray case may find the answer to this question informative as well.
-- Nathan
PBT Key tests from the factory:
The factory expects to spend two more weeks perfecting the injection molds for the keys, as well as mixing the PBT plastic to get the perfect colors for pearl, pebble, and Industrial SSK blue. The flash (excess plastic) has not been removed from these test keys.
The key texture has not yet been applied to the top of the key molds so they appear shiny/unfinished in these photos. As always the colors of these photos are not accurate.
Industrial SSK blue full 103 key sets (with and without legends) are available to order if anyone wants them.
Once I approve the keys, production can start on the keys.
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Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?
Wait so if we ordered a model F with keycaps are the caps gonna be PBT or ABS?
It will ALWAYS be PBT because when building to IBM specs, it's the ONLY material used for all key-caps 8) .
ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.
ummm k. So model M keycaps are PBT? They really seem like ABS.
???
They've always been PBT, they currently are PBT (Unicomp), and as long as they continue to be manufactured, always will be PBT.
Have you ever seen a Model F or M with yellowed keycaps? (Rhetorical question. Answer: no.)
-- Nathan
Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)? There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards. If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.
Having made the molds to produce your own keycaps, are you considering making additional keycap sets that aren't reproductions of IBM colorways (Dolch, for example)? There's not much out there for buckling spring keyboards. If your keycaps will work on existing model M's, I suspect there would be a lot of interest.
Dolch uses white legends on a dark grey background IMPOSSIBLE to do with PBT dye-sub. If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.
What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here, so he is sticking with what IBM has used all those years ago when decent engineering was paramount in the manufacture of this device.
I don't personally mind having one or two colours for the buckling spring key switches simply because it's what works and is easily recognized. If you want Dolch best go with the standard Cherry based switches and be content with what's on offer in that very shallow pool of indifference 8) .
If you want the white legends then you will have to put up with pad printing which is ALWAYS inferior to real PBT dye-sub.
...I'm not sure why you're so hostile to the notion of other colorways, though. "shallow pool of indifference"...
What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here
Yeah, they kind of do. ABS wears down much faster. It's why your ABS keys get shiny and smooth over time. PBT is wayyy more resistant to that kind of wear.What Ellipse is doing is the resurrection of the original Model-F series here
Yes I think we're aware of that at this point.
Seriously though. Ellipse, get into the custom Model M cap game. You would make a killing.
And **** it, make em out of ABS so you have more color options. Do they really NEED to be PBT? Like will an ABS version break?
I can look into other color options for the final round but I would need minimum commitments - probably at least 10-20 key sets. Please let me know if you know of any popular color options you'd think would be good.
Yes we are sticking with high quality PBT caps.
Correct I cannot dye sublimate a lighter color onto a darker key cap color due to the limitations of dye sub tech.
I looked into pad printing and given the very high MOQ I am not pursuing it. I am not doing double shot-requires different molds to be made.
Elrick have you ever considered the possibility that, like, maybe people want something other than what you do? Like, I mean just to be real specific, that they don't share your opinions? Does that make any sense to you? I can try to be more specific if you'd like, let me know. In the meantime, just something for you to consider. Food for though, so to speak.
Elrick have you ever considered the possibility that, like, maybe people want something other than what you do? Like, I mean just to be real specific, that they don't share your opinions? Does that make any sense to you? I can try to be more specific if you'd like, let me know. In the meantime, just something for you to consider. Food for though, so to speak.
:rolleyes:
Are you, like, the opinion police? I'm pretty sure he's aware. Let the man have his say, his posts are quality
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.And maybe even learn to love it.. ;)
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.And maybe even learn to love it.. ;)
Elrick is abrasive. You get used to it.
Yes atlas. Only a few people are getting special sets like Unicomp APL. I will not be making those. Most APL orderers switched to the new keys.
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)Thanks for bringing them out!
Sorry for the delay axtran
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
Sorry for the delay axtran
Really nice to meet you! I brought an original model F AT to the meetup, and can say I didn't notice a difference in feel really. The F77 looked so good. really considering one now
I am heading back from KeyCon 2017! Nice meeting everyone, and hope everyone had a chance to try out the first run F62 and F77 keyboards! Please do post your initial impressions if you'd like but keep in mind these are not yet finished :)
Sorry for the delay axtran
Really nice to meet you! I brought an original model F AT to the meetup, and can say I didn't notice a difference in feel really. The F77 looked so good. really considering one now
Really want to order a f62 now...
Seems like everyone there at keycon had good impression with them. I've been trying to cut down on kb purchases lately but I think I really should order an f62 now or else I'll regret it later
Nice to see some positive impressions.
In the end those with low- IQ's
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Yeah, along with those of everyone else too. Shows what kind of community we got here that lets a guy like that spread his toxicity around freely. Just goes to show, doesnt it?
Feel free to ignore his messages!
In the end those with low- IQ's
Dude are you serious? **** off already.
You are a complete douchebag. What the hell have you ever contributed except asinine behavior?
Yeah, along with those of everyone else too. Shows what kind of community we got here that lets a guy like that spread his toxicity around freely. Just goes to show, doesnt it?
Well you can either report his message or ignore all his posts.
The only colors for my keys are the standard pearl/pebble, black, and Industrial SSK blue.
ricyuyc feel free to order this store item and choose free/other shipping - https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/set-of-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/Is this the 'standard' set I will get by default?
Now is the time to offer any feedback you have for novelties or whatever you might like to add.
The font will resemble that of the original XT keyboards - not too far off from Unicomp's font. I don't think it would be an issue. The only colors for my keys are the standard pearl/pebble, black, and Industrial SSK blue.
Now is the time to offer any feedback you have for novelties or whatever you might like to add.
I'd love a backspace key to replace capslock for Colemak. Ellipse suggested ordering a blank but hey if we're making requests then why not. x
Here are the various layout options offered for the F62 and F77. Posted for those still sitting on the fence as the early bird deadline approaches!
(Attachment Link)
Some mockups of the various optional key sets.
(Attachment Link)
Better renders with the reproduction font will follow but I wanted to get this posted before the ordering deadline.
Here are the various layout options offered for the F62 and F77. Posted for those still sitting on the fence as the early bird deadline approaches!
(Attachment Link)
Some mockups of the various optional key sets.
(Attachment Link)
Better renders with the reproduction font will follow but I wanted to get this posted before the ordering deadline.
My order actually has a layout that isn't in those visuals (ISO, but with additional split right shift). Will this be possible? Or will I have to change it back to standard ISO?
Also, really great job on those legends, I have always been partial to icon-only modifiers, and this really tickle my fancy :D
Soon the key molds will be bottlenecking the project if the molds are not to spec in a month or so. For that reason I am thinking of replacing the mold subcontractor with another one that I've worked with before. This will eliminate further delays on the keys. I was expecting this key issue to be fixed at the start of June.
Latest update for the XT Quality font.
Do people prefer the pebble `~ key for the HHKB layout? Everyone will be getting the pearl version as the default and the pebble `~ is not part of the HHKB key set but I could probably make them available as an extra key.
Zed sent me the SVG of the XT font and the legends are near perfect! I printed them out 100% on my laser printer and did some digital micrometer spot checks.Yup, please include the pebble '~ key for us symmetry freaks.
These are going to look great on all our F62 and F77 keyboards!
Great duynguyenle - everyone will have time to try out the first round boards for a month or two at least before the final round ends.
Do people prefer the pebble `~ key for the HHKB layout? Everyone will be getting the pearl version as the default and the pebble `~ is not part of the HHKB key set but I could probably make them available as an extra key.
Zed sent me the SVG of the XT font and the legends are near perfect! I printed them out 100% on my laser printer and did some digital micrometer spot checks.
No Gamecat the ultra compact keyboards only offer black and regular gray anodizing.
The second and last round is the final round later this year.
If anyone wants the custom pebble/dark gray `~ key please order 3 units of the store item "$1 increments" and I will make some (please add a note that it is for the pebble `~ key).
I see an option for "Another color - Please message me beforehand" on the website, is that still a possibility for the ultracompact case?I don't think that was ever an option for the ultracompact, only the classic.
Do we choose "other shipping" when adding the pebble `~ key?
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com (http://www.PopularMechanics.com) - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/ (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/)
(Attachment Link)
Do we choose "other shipping" when adding the pebble `~ key?
wondering the same.
Today the project is featured on the home page of www.PopularMechanics.com - a comprehensive look at the project and on the Model F keyboard.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a27123/model-f-project-buckling-spring-keyboard/
(Attachment Link)
The spring-flipper attacher machine is finished! The factory did a great job designing and building this machine.Can you make a mini-video showing how it works?
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The spring-flipper attacher machine is finished! The factory did a great job designing and building this machine.
Wow the project got on the home page at TechSpot! What an honor to see the Model F on the tech news sites! https://www.techspot.com/news/70043-weekend-tech-reading-onedrive-stops-supporting-non-ntfs-ibm-model-f-diy-remote-pc-starter.html
Are those keyboards programmable?
This picture shows Mac Command keys next to Space.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/command-option-keys/
Do I have to order this specific layout or I can change it myself?
What about arrow keys on Kishsaver? What key combination is for them?
Production update:
I continue using and testing the new Model F's and we are very close to getting the right amount of the musical reverb when typing! Even with some of the components not yet 100%.
I received the latest shipment today from the factory, including two Industrial Gray production cases and sample keys and springs.
The factory did a great job on the Industrial Gray cases. They are the correct mix of gray, green, and tan that is a cross between the greenish-tan-gray Industrial SSK and the more greenish full size Industrial M's. Nice bumpy texture and matte paint.
The latest spring samples do not match my tolerances and specifications and they have been rejected. At this point I expect to work with one of the US spring factories I've received a quote from in the past month or so (after evaluating their samples first of course). I have to absorb the costs here but it looks like everyone is expected to get US made buckling springs!
The latest keys have excellent PBT like the originals, but failed to match the tolerances and I am talking with the factory about options and next steps. May have to switch subcontractors on this part as I mentioned before; we don't want to wait forever for these sub's to improve!
(Attachment Link)
The latest spring samples do not match my tolerances and specifications and they have been rejected.You rock. :thumb:
Production update:
The factory did a great job on the Industrial Gray cases. They are the correct mix of gray, green, and tan that is a cross between the greenish-tan-gray Industrial SSK and the more greenish full size Industrial M's. Nice bumpy texture and matte paint.
racism
bitter personal attack
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The segment will be posted here later tonight/tomorrow: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The audio is now posted here if you missed the broadcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
NPR Interview tonight!
It is an honor to be a guest tonight on NPR's evening program All Things Considered! The 3 minute segment on the Model F keyboards will air around 7:30 or 8pm, at least in NY. Please tune in to listen!
The audio is now posted here if you missed the broadcast: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/14/537290841/this-10-pound-keyboard-from-the-1980s-is-making-a-comeback
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
Yes you get the full set for ANSI orders.
The international sets will just have the full ~103 key international key set that was ordered, no ANSI-only keys. Yes the split shift caps will be correct.
Here is the store item for F1 printed front row keys: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/front-printed-keys-f1-etc/
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
Extra blue keys are $3 each outside of the Industrial SSK Blue key set. You can add them using the store item "$1 increments."
reececonrad here is the proposed summary of the key options: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
You'd be getting the full XT quality base set (the top half of the first photo)
While we wait on the factory and some photos from me, I was wondering if we could discuss:
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
I'm trying to gather interest to add an extra color of keycap to this GB. They'd be black dyesub on slightly lighter black caps. Sound off in this thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90614.0) if you're interested.
Since this is intended to be part of the GB, I hope I don't cause any offense by posting in this thread.
While we wait on the factory and some photos from me, I was wondering if we could discuss:'
Where will you be using your brand new Model F keyboard? What kind of work/activities will you be using it for most (writing, coding, gaming, etc.)?
Thanks atlas! Atredl not sure what you mean - please PM me.
Just as a production recap for those catching up on the progress:
Production has finished on many of the components - the important components we are waiting on are the springs, key tooling, and inner assembly steel plate tooling. We are still looking at end of year delivery for everyone.
The factory has agreed that if this month's corrected key molds do not meet quality standards, I will be going with the other factory to make the key molds.
The factory is also finishing up the corrected top inner assembly tooling this month. Part of the tooling is a huge metal press curved to IBM's exact radius for the top inner assembly. This will help ensure we reach IBM's exact standards.
In the mean time as the keys are produced, assembly is expected to finish for everything except the keys. That way the keys will not bottleneck the project timeline. The factory expects to produce more of the spring attacher machines to speed things along.
The molds will likely be scrapped unless I pay for the upkeep, and the tooling on the factory machines will be just reconfigured for their next customer once production ends.
Yes here are the proposed layouts: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4
And yes you can configure secondary functions in the software if you need Print Screen/Scroll Lock/etc.
Ellipse, are you going to the nyc meetup next weekend?
Thanks for letting me know! I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!
If you can't make it, I'll take your boards with me.Thanks for letting me know! I will try to make it and bring some of the prototypes!
Can't wait to see you again - I'll try to get some pics of your boards/parts/etc this time!
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications! They are just completing the finishing of these parts.
I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).
The factory let me know today that the updated keys and inner assembly steel plates meet my specifications! They are just completing the finishing of these parts.
I will know for sure when they are in hand (they should be mailing me the parts soon).
3. How do we order http://i.imgur.com/SC8TI3I.png if we're getting the F77 model? This set would basically cover any uses I would possibly have with the side keys!
Each novelty key is $3 extra - please use the store item "$1 increments" for those.Ellipse,
Someone sent me a description and comparison video of an interesting grease-style Model F/M mod that seems to eliminate the plate/spring reverberation/tizz but keep much of the click sound. For those who don't like ping but like the click in their buckling spring keyboards.
Nathan I think you are correct on all points. Please do specify the legends and colors on each of the extras you'd like.Awesome; thanks. Just submitted an order addendum. I didn't think you were interested in doing "custom" keys so this caught me by surprise. Perhaps you are only interested in doing relatively simple custom ones (a single legend, no top+bottom or side/front printing, no legends that don't exist) or ones that > 1 person might request? I kept my latest order simple (restricted to what was discussed here) but if you are willing to do more, let me know because I definitely have specific requests. ;)
For now the only custom keys available are the ones from Zed's post (also here: http://imgur.com/a/WR7h4 ). I don't want to delay anything with additional custom requests but I may be able to do custom keys during the final round once I have shipped all current orders.Perfectly reasonable; thanks. I have also been looking more closely into Hajime Nakazato's Etsy operation, and will likely reach out to him once the XT font is released.
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today! Over 150 people were there. I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards. There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today! And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!Thanks for let me try your boards again!
Nice meeting everyone who attended the NYC keyboard meetup today! Over 150 people were there. I brought 3 of the new Model F keyboards. There were a DVORAK user who reached over 120 WPM on the new Model F today! And thanks again Latin00032 for telling me about the meetup!Thanks for let me try your boards again!
Before I forget, I remembered the thing for the case texture."Light orange peel" is how the old school cases would be described? That sounds interesting. How did the finished aluminum cases look? I wish I could have seen and felt them in person!
Try googling "light orange peel".
That is what I think the texture is for these cases.
Any interest in custom anodized blue as an ultra compact case premium color option? A few people could split the $500 tooling charge. A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.I wasn't getting an ultra compact but I would if it was blue. What shade of blue are we talking about?
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.Please tell me that it is chyros (https://www.youtube.com/user/Chyrosran22).
The US factory spring wire samples arrived today and they look great! Almost identical in appearance to the original spring samples.
Almost none of the US based spring factories had the equipment to manufacture springs to IBM's 1980s tolerances and automatically discard all springs that do not meet the tolerances (this one does!). Some US factories could only meet 4x IBM's original tolerances!
The factory said that these springs' tolerances are as tight as those of their aerospace customers.
I will be ordering sample springs this week for evaluation and then if they are good I will order all the springs from this factory - everyone will get the US-made springs.
Giorgio we are ordering brand new one piece molds matching the quality of IBM's XT keys. Unicomp does not offer this. We are also custom making molds for special keys like the 1.75U non-stepped shift/caps lock keys.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
"They" is one man, Ellipse. This is his project and he says what happens. We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining. When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months. I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
he just said "No."
Sorry I will not be shipping out incomplete or untested keyboards. We are still waiting on production to finish on some of the parts.Untested seems like another pretty good reason why he wouldn't to ship out keyboards in parts. He's signing off that this keyboard is going to work and if for some reason it doesn't then he has to deal with shipping back and forth to get it fixed.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
"They" is one man, Ellipse. This is his project and he says what happens. We have trusted him with our money while he has worked diligently to bring something new into the world that is his own imagining. When you ask him to request the manufacturer ship out an incomplete product, you are asking him to pull the baby out of the womb at 8 months. I believe what your asking is not only impractical, but insulting. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
This is a group buy, and you just have to wait for the product to be delivered.
Ya sorry but you're being ridiculous. Totally reasonable to request that your order be shipped out early. What's the difference between Ellipse's perfect new flippers, made exactly to IBM specs, vs. those from an actual Model F ,you know ,made by IBM, supposing someone wants to tear one apart?
Or, you know, someone who has keycaps and doesn't want to wait around another 5 or 6 months for the new ones to be produced?
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.
But, jesus christ dude, it's not an insult to Ellipse to make the request. If anything it's a compliment, coming from people who want their new model F sometime before they are on their deathbed.
What I actually do find a little insulting (and I do mean only a little), on the other hand, is that Ellipse provided exactly no reason why he wouldn't ship out early-
he just said "No." There are pros and cons to working on these projects with a single person at the head, and one of the major pros is that we can communicate directly with that person. Ellipse can do what he wants, as long as he either delivers a product or our money, but it would nonetheless also be nice if he provided a reason behind this denial. I don't think he's obligated to, but it would be nice.
Honestly I think Ellipse should consider shipping orders missing certain parts out early on specific requests. The only arguments I consider valid against it are those relating to logistics, i.e. shipping out specific orders with specific parts excluded would add complexity to what Ellipse has to deal with. That added complexity could bleed into the rest of the project and slow things down for the rest of us. That's the only good reason not to ship out early.That's a very good reason not to do it. It would be a logistical nightmare to start shipping incomplete orders. Allowing one person to do that means you have to allow all people to have that option and now he's no longer going to be shipping keyboards out all at once but instead he's going to be shipping them out for the rest of the year.
Is it possible I can get my kit earlier without the springs. I didn't order the keys and I can use the springs from my model M.
Do you have Model F flippers? If not, you'll still need the flippers and springs. Plus you'd have to break your Model M apart to get them anyway.
Breaking a Model M apart is nothing. I have enough springs for my future new model f.
The flippers should have finished production. The only parts missing are the springs, and I have the springs.
I don't understand why they won't ship my kits without the springs.
The project was featured on IBM's official Tumblr page today!
http://ibmblr.tumblr.com/post/164338069961/love-at-first-type-many-love-stories-start-with
InvidiousIgnoramus you can still order one on www.ModelFKeyboards.com!Can you explain exactly how your "pay as you go" payment works? I'm not sure i can drop it all in one go, probably half now and the other half towards the end of the week.
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...
Just out of curiosity, did you contact IBM and ask them for the technical package (all the measurements and specs) for the F-type? They seem quite taken with the idea, might let you even use an IBM logo on the boards; an official IBM Ellipse F square plate, would be wicked.
Ah! I thought that at least for the keys they were on par with old IBM, since they use their equipment!
You're making a great effort with this project, and I'm happy that many people have followed you. I'm actually searching for an old model m, to understand how much I like buckling springs. Probably I'll join in the next rounds!
I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.
Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
And that's all I needed to know. Sweet.I've got one last question, ellipse. You say the cases are made out of zinc or aluminum. If I go with the classic style case (specifically the F62) it will be zinc, yes? This is the most important part to me.
Edit: I do want to clarify, I'm just going to go ahead and follow your advice and pay all at once. I don't really need to wait, so i don't know why i was going to do it that way anyway.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questions/question/why-not-a-zinc-option-for-the-compact-versions/
So implicitly from that response, yes, the F62 and F77 "classic style cases" are both zinc, the F62 Ultracompact is aluminum.
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct. Now we are in production. Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production. I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).
I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.
consolation the R&D on measurements and materials was finished in 2015-2016 after speaking with a number of engineers, and everything is 100% working and correct. Now we are in production. Giorgio is correct that IBM is long out of keyboard production. I doubt Lexmark or Unicomp received much of the Model F production equipment/specs besides Lexmark working with NOS parts and refurbishing some F's in the 90s).
I will not be using any IBM trade marks or logos on the keyboards.
Sigh, that's the problem with having people sign up at the end of a long term project - we all want to reinvent the wheel... still think you should consider CoolerMaster Style TK option for the numpad, but I'll shush about that. I wasn't suggesting badging the keyboards as IBM, I literally meant a (model M style) square badge as feelie/curio. Congrats on the awesome work so far, truly impressive.
That would mean adding an extra column of keys, which is completely outside of scope for this project (complete reproduction of the original F77 design)
I really like that CM right block a lot. Makes sense
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
Great news - the first top and bottom inner assembly parts from the new tooling arrived today and they meet my specifications! The radii are perfect to my drawings for all samples. I expect to do some further evaluation this week and then approve them for production to start!That's great news!
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.
Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?
Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.
Production update:
Funny, I was just wondering that myself yesterday. The only problem I could see with that is it possibly effecting the buckling of the spring. I mean, the spring is always slightly buckled.Production update:
Thanks for the update! Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but I wonder whether there'd be a market for custom springs for buckling spring keyboards?
consolation I like that right side block layout - it gives you the best of both currently available right side block layout options. I'd like to offer it as a "shipping separately" option (like the black legends on dark grey keys) to avoid delaying the project. It would probably confuse standard num lock users though.
Zed maybe you could add them to the Model F legend set?
My apologies for not seeing these posts earlier. Looks like my notification emails for this thread have stopped for some reason. I would be more than happy to work up the art for the CM numpad option.
Consolation, tab on the "." key or num pad return?
I think tab would be more useful, as the return is right next to they cluster anyway.
No problem at all. My right pinkie expects to find a return key in that area but it is easy enough to work up both versions. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
I think he's referring to the anodized blue aluminum case that was mentioned a while back.Someone contacted me through the project web site that he's interested in blue and can chip in $100.
We would need just one or two more interested people (besides the two who replied on this thread earlier - I PMed them) and then we can reach the $500 for tooling.
People have been asking for Carolina Blue, a popular light blue color used by UNC. Please let me know! The extra case itself runs $100 and for $100 in tooling you can order as many extra cases as you'd like for the standard $100 price. You can even order extras and hold on to them, to sell long after production ends. I think once people see the case in its color and how it turned out, there will be more interest but I am only doing this custom color with one production run because of the tooling.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Is there a post about it?
Here is the page it was mentioned (idk how to link a specific post in the thread):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.1100
(Also, to link a post you can right-click -> copy link on the link heading, usually the thread title [in red/bold for me] above a given post.)Thank you, friend.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. Maybe we should put numpad enter in its rightful place, problem is that we need the numpad . for decimal separator there in numpad mode.
If we are willing to put the decimal point on a function layer, here are a couple of ideas. I have also aligned the legends so they are more consistent with the num pad/nav pad layers. Upper right quadrant becomes the function layer operators but I am not sold on "Num/Nav" as it will probably have to be significantly smaller text in order to fit. "NP" would fit well but is probably at bit too cryptic. "Lock" could be an option too.
I programmed one of my keyboards with both layouts, after couple days usage, my rather subjective findings are:. Return works best as the bottom right button, it makes it really easy to find with your pinky without looking. Personally I find having + and - on the up and down arrows more intuitive, but that could just be me. I'd recommend just having "Nav" for the label, the alternative is obvious from the design, but, do we really need/want the function key there? It's handy for people using traditional ANSI layouts, in which case "Meta", is probably best as it will be their main function key. For split shift/back space users, it works best as a "Lock" key so you can lock the function layer, but it's a "nice to have" not an essential. I found the layout worked amazingly well with split shift, leaving it in numpad mode and using fn+pad for navigation functions. Overall, it's a really good system that gives you nav cluster and numpad functionality in a really intuitive manner.
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off
for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off
Chiming in to agree with DZed. Because of the numpad's close proximity to the primary "enter", I'd vastly prefer a dedicated numpad "." over a numpad "enter".
I'm also bit confused about the nav/lock/fn key, though. Is the idea to have a key that functions like numlock does on a 101-104 key keyboard? I'm having trouble imagining a toggle or momentary key that doesn't cause problems by sharing a physical key with a glyph key.
Great feedback! It's a bit ironic that after spending a few days really paying attention to my num pad usage, I came to the conclusion that, for me, having to put the decimal point on a fn layer would probably end up pissing me off. So, I was thinking that your original layout using the return key from the primary section of the board would be the best compromise. I hear you on the natural position of enter in the bottom right though and since nobody else has offered any input for this layout, we will go with your choice.
I think there might be a bit of confusion about the fn layer/key layout though. I was not intending to put an actual fn key on the pad, just showing the fn layer options since this is a pretty unconventional layout and if Ellipse is kind enough to do the printing of these keys, we might as well go all out with any sub legends. I was thinking that the "Nav" or "Lock" fn would be a toggle layer and you could also have the nav controls on a momentary layer as you mentioned. Are we on the same page here?
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
The attention to detail is fantastic, I'm really glad ellipse is making sure everything is right for this.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Fascinating. And that's not sarcasm. This board is epic.
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Can you point me to the software you were looking at? I'm happy to make a few versions of firmware that can be downloaded to go with the keycaps, or raw data to cut'n'paste into the json file; assuming that's the format, of course.
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
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Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.I had this reflexion 2 years ago.
I first became aware of it back in maybe January, so I've been circling for a while. I considered holding off for a later round, but there's never a guarantee that will actually happen.
I have an F XT bigfoot, so I was trying to convince myself I didn't need this, but the idea of a modernized layout with a industrial gray case and all the other goodies won out. I'll get to enjoy that typing experience without jumping through the hoops that come with a 3-decade old machine. It can legitimately be a daily driver. Plus, it's obvious how much work has gone into perfecting this, and I'm very pleased to be able to support the project.
[It's funny you mention that, I joined this about a month ago and just three days ago I bought an XT on eBay. Just got it today.
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order. So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point. If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.
Ugh... I really want to jump in on this at the last minute but I'm still in sticker shock. My wallet says no, but my brain says "You can't get this anywhere else!"
UPDATE: Screw it. I'm in. It's just too good to pass up. Besides, I can't imagine I'd have trouble unloading it later if I change my mind.
I'm in the same boat. I've had the order page open for a while now, cart is ready to be bought...
Is this still the Early Bird round? So there will be one more round after this? I really want to get in on this but I can't justify it right now.
From my understanding... early bird means you get put at the end of the current list of people who have paid for early bird, and the boards will ship out in that order. So, say 400 people have ordered the board. And say 50 have paid for early bird at this point. If you join as an early bird, you would be the 51st person to get their board shipped, vs. the 401st.
I'm confused, are you saying that you can order without paying? Because I don't think so. If you join now as an early bird you'll be the 401st person to get your board shipped.
...
Unfortunately, the program won't even launch unless you have an xwhatsit controller in a Model F hooked up.
Thanks, I presume it looks for a USB id? I dimly recall a program to emulate a hub that would let you "attach" any arbitrary device; something to add to my weekend to-do list. It would be nice to mess with the layout editor.
Is there any chance of doing the nav legends in blue to match the optional keycaps?
Both of those questions are above my pay grade. Our fearless GB leader will have to take it from here. Let us know if you do work out a hack to get the software running. I am sure I am not the only one who would like to play around with the programming.
The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes. That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns. Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB. Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files. I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...
Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.
The xwhatsit software is very easy to use - the GUI is relatively simple to understand, and the base layer on an F122 can be laid out from scratch in about five minutes. That said, the layout is set up not based on key layout but on the capsense matrix, typically 8 rows by 11-16 columns. Without knowing how the matrix on the F77 is laid out it would be fruitless to attempt creating layout files at this stage, though the matrix may be able to be pieced together from pictures of the PCB. Anyone with a Kishsaver should be able to make F62-compatible layout files. I feel like the 60% and nav sections are laid out the same between the F107, F77 and F62, but I cannot remember for sure...
Basically what I mean to say is, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's so easy to reconfigure (running the program and changing a key takes maybe 10sec max) that I'm sure people will be swapping layout files as soon as the boards arrive.
Thanks for the info. I was really more interested in the features available than trying to create a layout file. I take it toggle layers are available?
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
...
Yes - there is a base layer and three additional layers, and you can configure a key to swap to another layer. There are also three function keys which can be held to select a layer and can be chorded. In addition, there is a macro editor, but there is not enough space allocated in ROM for very long keypatterns.
Can the function keys be set as toggle, momentary and switch types?
Thanks again!
That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.
That covers toggle and momentary, but I am not sure what you mean by "switch" type.
I meant as in: "switch" to the designated layer and stay there until another layer is selected, as opposed to switch back after next key press (toggle) or switch to layer while holding down the function key (momentary.) Sorry for the confusion, there is so many different names used for these modes; latch, modifier mode, select, etc, etc... There really is no agreed set of terms it seems.
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).
The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.
I looked at trying out one of the layouts today but didn't understand the 0/NumLk key - how should that be implemented?
They way I have been thinking about it (and I think Consolation has confirmed above), Fn + "0" would act like Num Lock/Nav toggle ("switch" type ala Consolation).
The blue icons could be a momentary layer and, of course, you could also include the Page Up/Down, etc.
One thing worth noting is the ridge between the alphanumeric block and the navpad - the top of the keycaps on the Shift/Fn row are nearly flush with that ridge/bar. On a normal TKL it would be easy to press Fn with your thumb, but on these keyboards (at least on the classic-type case) a finger will be required instead. This makes the toggle a bit cumbersome if one intends to swap back and forth regularly.
How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.
After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.
The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.
classic chasis (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg)
How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Here are the last updates:Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.How far are we from shipping? What needs doing?
Here are the last updates:Production update:
The US factory's aerospace-grade spring samples are technically excellent - they meet or exceed all the tolerances specified - but the spring sound is not yet perfect. It's a little too sharp/high pitched. Either the material alloy is off or they were heat treated a little too long/too high a temperature is my guess. Or maybe the sound dulls a bit over time and with corrosion of the original springs after 30 years.
The factory suggested I have the original springs analyzed at a material analysis lab - I have sent off some original XT springs to a lab. They can determine with reasonable accuracy the content of the original springs. We should know more next week.
Meanwhile the main factory is still preparing to finish up production of the remaining parts - inner assembly plates, boxes, inner foam, outside foam, and ultra compact cases. I am hoping to have these completed parts, key samples from the new mold supplier, and all the springs by early November.After further discussions with the PCB factories I have discovered some suppliers of PCB materials in Taiwan and China that may be even more close to the 80s originals. These materials may further enhance the sharpness of the flipper click as a key is pressed on a new Model F. I have ordered some samples and should get them around month end.
If this is a noticeable improvement I plan on using them for everyone's keyboards even though I already ordered the ones from the other supplier.
I noticed that the '96 4704 refurbs had weaker/muddier clicks and part of that reason seems to be the '96 manufactured PCB itself.
PCBs are quick to make (they can fulfill the whole order in under two weeks) so this will not bottleneck the project. This doesn't affect the controllers which are 100% good and are not being re-made.The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!
The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.
Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Old news. Plus I think this whole spring and PCB thing is....misguided, to say the least.
I mean, to order a whole new set of PCBs from the manufacturer, AFTER a full set of PCBs have already been ordered?
No comment on that one.
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.
I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
Bless Ellipse and his Noble questI mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.QuoteI do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.I mean, this is an attempt to create an exact reproduction, not something that's almost the same.
Well, no, it's actually exactly an attempt to create something that's almost the same. While I believe the end product will be good and worthwhile, I think that exact reproduction is a bad approach and I disagree with a number of the choices made with this project. I'm not willing to say anything beyond these comments.
None of this discussion has answered my question, though.QuoteI do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with the original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I expect to end up spending $100,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!This is straight from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com. We're not looking for almost, we're looking for equal to or greater than. In his PCB update he mentions that their production won't even affect the timeline and in the process we get a higher quality PCB. He's not even charging us more for it so I don't know why you have a problem with ordering the new PCBs. Same thing with the springs, he literally went to a lab to get the metal analyzed and the results were a much higher grade than gets used in any keyboard springs nowadays.
I think you may have gotten into this GB with the wrong expectations of what Ellipse is aiming to achieve.
Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?
I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.
Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.
By the way, "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.
Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.
Sorry, Tapatalk made it sound like you responded to me.Rude, watch who you respond to. I said none of those things.
I don't know how you're under the impression I was responding to you but I edited my post to make things clearer. I'm being as polite as possible.
Haha no I knew what the mission statement of this project was when I joined it, don't condescend to me, don't imply I'm an ignorant or oblivious idiot. I already get that from 90% of the people on this forum - condescension - you trying to be like everyone else?I was not condescending to you at any point. Some of your comments simply suggested you might be misinformed and you don’t have to be an idiot to be misinformed. So don’t put imply intentions that were never there.
I'm fully aware of everything you just said, although I saw nowhere a statement claiming that the new spring steel is a higher grade, just closer to original.But closer to the original is part of the goal. Yes the aim is to use higher quality parts but he’s aiming to make a product that feels and sounds identical to the originals.
Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion.
By the way, "almost the same" covers "an improvement over the original." I'm not suggesting an inferior product should be produced.
Excellent info. I had not even thought that ridge might be an obstacle before.
classic chasis (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/DSC_8541.jpg)
Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.
PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.
PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.
(Attachment Link)
Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL. If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.
As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.
In the end, if we end up with half assed keyboards after all this time and money, it's going to be a major disappointment. I don't really see anybody else in this thread that has the expertise to pull this off correctly, so my trust is in him. I'd hate to see him kowtow to a few impatient people and ruin what could be a keyboard I use for the rest of my life.
People can call what he does "misguided," but unless you want to be ignored or told off, you probably are going to have to back that up with something that establishes your credibility. Otherwise, it's an "opinions are like *******s, everybody's got one" type of situation.
And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Not sure how it could be demonstrated that these changes are worth the time and energy... since you have no experience with the originals and no experience or interaction with the parts being discussed. It's for that reason exactly that someone like Ellipse is one of the few people capable of doing this. By putting your money into the project you are putting your trust in the brief he laid out for this project and in his opinion and experience when it comes to executing it. I have seen no evidence that he has strayed even slightly from his stated brief if anything he has put huge amounts of time and extra effort (and even extra money) to ensure it's met exactly. So this is basically just whingeing that things are taking longer then you would like. I do get that and obviously we are all keen for it to be done and in our hands but most of us want what Ellipse set out to do and that's why we joined the project.
Lastly and this is just my opinion but I don't think that Ellipse deserves any of us second-guessing these decisions, especially considering our relative lack of knowledge and all the effort he has put in.
Though you are incidentally correct, you don't actually know that I have no experience with this stuff. You've assumed that about me.Since you didn’t buy into this out of trust in Ellipse, why did you buy into the early bird instead of the regular round? It seems like you have criticisms about Ellipse’s method but there are plenty of pages in this thread that are evidence that this is the way he does things. If you had bought into the regular round there would already be a product and you wouldn’t have to worry about sample timelines and delays because prototypes don’t meet his standards.
The long and short of it is you are making a lot of generalizations and I disagree with most of what you said. I certainly didn't buy into an individual when I put money into this project, I purchased a product, plain and simple.
I absolutely didn't put money in out of trust or faith or something either, it was, and still is, a total risky buy to me, something where I'm like "Well, I'd rather lose 400$ but with the possibility of getting something I really want versus leaving that money sitting in my bank account, so fk it."If you really did say “f**k it” then why do you have so many criticisms about Ellipse’s method? By this statement it sounds like you treated this like a coin flip but up above you say that you “purchased a product, plain and simple”. Purchasing a product is not a coin flip at all. When you purchase a product, you fully expect to receive it in a timely manner. This round is a GB for an item that isn’t fully made yet. I’m not trying to be patronizing here but your contradicting statements really suggest that you didn’t fully understand what you were buying into.
And everyone deserves a good second guessing. Everyone.
Damn, I didn't think about that at all, sounds like our "./enter" key might have to become the function key? Then the rest of the cluster is: nav keys, arrows, numpad numericals, numpad operators.
PS. "0" can have the decimal "." as a fn layer.
PPS. Essentially this: but properly aligned etc... Each user can decide for themselves which section goes on which layer to match their usage patterns.
(Attachment Link)
Most people, probably, predominantly uses the nav layer; so can set the nav buttons + cursors to default and numpad to function/meta layer, in effect getting a TKL. If, like me, you prefer a TK design: set the numericals + cursors to default and get that layout.
As a bonus, it gives a function key for those who chose a traditional ANSI layout on the main cluster.
It seems a shame to give up some already precious real estate. What about something like Fn + Shift to toggle the Num/Nav layers?
And likewise, you haven't demonstrated it won't, or that it's limited to 1%. That's a hunch of yours, right?
Correct, except I have no, nor meant to suggest a, hunch either way. The only fact here is that I've been given no demonstration that these changes are worth the time and energy. I'm also, personally, unconvinced they will have no effect on the timetable.
Though you are incidentally correct, you don't actually know that I have no experience with this stuff. You've assumed that about me.Since you didn’t buy into this out of trust in Ellipse, why did you buy into the early bird instead of the regular round? It seems like you have criticisms about Ellipse’s method but there are plenty of pages in this thread that are evidence that this is the way he does things. If you had bought into the regular round there would already be a product and you wouldn’t have to worry about sample timelines and delays because prototypes don’t meet his standards.
The long and short of it is you are making a lot of generalizations and I disagree with most of what you said. I certainly didn't buy into an individual when I put money into this project, I purchased a product, plain and simple.QuoteI absolutely didn't put money in out of trust or faith or something either, it was, and still is, a total risky buy to me, something where I'm like "Well, I'd rather lose 400$ but with the possibility of getting something I really want versus leaving that money sitting in my bank account, so fk it."If you really did say “f**k it” then why do you have so many criticisms about Ellipse’s method? By this statement it sounds like you treated this like a coin flip but up above you say that you “purchased a product, plain and simple”. Purchasing a product is not a coin flip at all. When you purchase a product, you fully expect to receive it in a timely manner. This round is a GB for an item that isn’t fully made yet. I’m not trying to be patronizing here but your contradicting statements really suggest that you didn’t fully understand what you were buying into.
And everyone deserves a good second guessing. Everyone.
Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Yeah you’re probably right. Just wanted to make sure it’s clear that these are the only layouts Ellipse is making.The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
I think it's just the terminology that is leading some folks into confusion. I mean, we know there are going to be two production rounds, so it's natural for some people to call the second round R2. (Unless you are an old school coder who always starts counting at zero, haha!)
Yup, currently early bird. Ellipse has mentioned that the regular round will start 1-2 months after the early bird round has shipped. That way people can have the boards in their hands and the regular round people can have more confidence about what they’re getting.Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Oh woah, had no idea it was Zinc. Thanks very much for the info... Although perhaps I should be cursing you, as I think you've just convinced me I need one of these.
I'm skimming the thread now, we're in the early bird period now correct? Any idea when the regular rounds would end (probably hard to say if they haven't even begun yet hah)?
Yup, currently early bird. Ellipse has mentioned that the regular round will start 1-2 months after the early bird round has shipped. That way people can have the boards in their hands and the regular round people can have more confidence about what they’re getting.Man, I've been on the fence about this for a couple weeks now... These look sooooo sick :thumb:, but I've bought a lot of keyboard stuff recently :-\...The exterior case is completely made out of Zinc. No plastic blockers on this baby. However, Ellipse has said that there won’t be a R2. Only the early bird and regular rounds, both of which will have the layout that you see.
Is there any chance that this could ever exist in the F77 layout without the plastic blocker between the numpad and mods? Maybe if there is an R2?
Oh woah, had no idea it was Zinc. Thanks very much for the info... Although perhaps I should be cursing you, as I think you've just convinced me I need one of these.
I'm skimming the thread now, we're in the early bird period now correct? Any idea when the regular rounds would end (probably hard to say if they haven't even begun yet hah)?
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Something funky is definitely going on in those pictures and hopefully it’s just the lens or an odd angle. Do keep in mind that the ultra compact case is Aluminum and not Zinc, so it’ll be significantly lighter. If that’s alright with you then go for it!Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the ultra-compact layout - but only if it's equal quality to the traditional cases. The case definitely looks extremely crooked in the photo but I'm hoping it's just an issue with the lens/camera.
Something funky is definitely going on in those pictures and hopefully it’s just the lens or an odd angle. Do keep in mind that the ultra compact case is Aluminum and not Zinc, so it’ll be significantly lighter. If that’s alright with you then go for it!Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...That looks like it’s one of the prototypes for the ultra compact aluminum case, not the traditional zinc case that I mentioned in my other reply. I can’t say why the case in that picture looks uneven but there are two case options for each layout.
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the ultra-compact layout - but only if it's equal quality to the traditional cases. The case definitely looks extremely crooked in the photo but I'm hoping it's just an issue with the lens/camera.
...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
When does the early bird end? Still worried about the wonky looking pic... :/...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Can I get a source on that?...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
...
Oh man, that's a great idea - sounds like he's really thought this through. I guess I can rest somewhat easier now knowing that I have a bit of time to save up for one :D
My understanding is that R1 was going to be +100-200$ over the early bird; I'd jump in on the early bird tbh.
Hmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
that's been my understanding as well, thanksHmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
I've seen the prototype in person. It's straight.
("But how?" you may ask. He brings it to meetups.)
that's been my understanding as well, thanksHmm, where'd you see this?I’m not the guy you were asking but I’ve been following this thread for a while and afaik there’s only been mention of being able to pay extra to get your board with a low serial number. This will let you get your board even earlier. Think expedited processing within the early bird round.
Ellipse, can you confirm if prices will jump after early bird? wanted to order in the next round but not for an additional $100-200
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?Hey guys, sorry to double-post, but I had one more question about the F77...
When looking at the Ultra-Compact F77 on the website, the front edge of the case looks very crooked... Is this what the case actually looks like, or is this somehow distortion caused by the camera?
Cropped photo with straightedge:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MbX9Zif.jpg)
Original photo for reference:Show Image(https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/20170529_152631.jpg)
I've seen the prototype in person. It's straight.
("But how?" you may ask. He brings it to meetups.)
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Awesome, thank you very much. Have you seen both the ultra compact and traditional versions? If so which do you prefer?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
I wouldn't trust anyone other Ellipse for shipping date timelines
Hi everyone!Probably mid 2018.
I recently (17 Oct 2017) "broke down" and bought an ultra compact F62 in standard grey with printed keycaps as a present to myself for finally becoming a PhD candidate in my research program.
I skimmed the thread but did not find any shipment dates.
Can anyone tell me when these keyboards are expected to ship? I apologize if this information was in plain sight and I just didn't see it...
Thank you!
Thank you.
Can't wait!
I wouldn't trust anyone other Ellipse for shipping date timelines
Mid 2018 sounds like a pretty reasonable estimate to me
Update on the springs - one factory has agreed to manufacture the old wire standard for this project! Every other factory in recent weeks said no.Here's hoping for the best
With the correct material and what was learned after the most recent sub-standard spring sample batch, hopefully the next batch of springs will match the originals.
The factory is returning the not-to-spec USB cable clamps to the clamp factory and they are re-making them.
Every other factory in recent weeks said no.
The old standard material is what was originally used and is no longer offered widely. Today's standard formulations and processes do not match the sound characteristics of the originals. The factory has tried with many modern materials over the past year or so to no avail.
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
cost
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
That's very interesting, but seems to have little to do with the composition of a spring.Do you have any idea why that alloy was discontinued?
cost
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
Pretty sure they’re talking about the spring steel.
If it's the type that was common in the 80s, iirc, it was strong but too brittle for modern multi layer pcbs; I vaguely remember the articles in the tech press at the time. The more modern substrates came out that wouldn't crack when each layer was much thinner; modern PCBs are thinner and weaker under compression, but stronger under tension, so the multiple layers won't lift off. Although the older type was better for through mounts, as you get shorter stress fractures when drilling holes in it. Of course there isn't now, or wasn't back then, a one type of pcb; but that is the general gist of it, if memory serves me right.
This is going to sound pretty grim and may insult but I do have a question
Ellipse do you have anyone backing you up on the project management and distribution of the product if something were to happen to you. I know this usually does not get asked on other group buys but this is literally the biggest and complex community centered project I have ever seen on geekhack over 5 years being on here. You have have become a god.
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project! Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!
We just passed $400,000 in orders - a major milestone for this project! Who would have expected so much awareness of the Model F!You have to give yourself most of the credit there. I wasn't even aware of the Model F being better than the touted Model M. I think your standards of quality and sticking as closely to the original as possible made it so successful. It's definitely why I purchased one. The look of the boards with the retro case and keycaps was a big draw, then learning about how well built they will be compared to anything made today made the purchase an easy one.
Ordered an F62 ;D.
Thank Ellipse for the best GB so far.
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
I would assume he actually has manufacturers for all the parts. Remember, still working on springs and testing pcb material.I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I'd like something clarified, by Ellipse. We are still in an "Early Bird" round, correct? Then after this "early bird" round "ends," there is effectively a round 2, correct? What conditions have to be met for this "early bird" round to be over?They have to be made and shipped, of course.
You're not quite understanding my question. Let me clarify: What conditions need to be met for Early bird ordering to close.
I guess all the orders before he ships out any orders are all "early bird" round. So I assume he will keep postponing the deadline for "early bird" round util all the parts meet his standards, if they ever will.
We are still looking at shipping in Q1 2018 - again my apologies for the factory production delays. Even with a $400,000 manufacturing project we are not the highest priority project with the factory which focuses on much larger orders. I am happy they accepted the project and have spent a couple years of back and forth to perfect the parts - they have been a great partner except for the delays over the past year.
Yes we are still in the early bird round for all orders. If all goes well with the factory timeline we can move to the regular round of orders next month!
Fluffypupper these keyboards will be well worth the wait! Early on I decided that quality is the most important aspect of this project, above meeting any self-imposed timeline. I will not ship poor quality goods to save a few months, especially with all the funds everyone has put in already for their keyboards. I want the factory to make quality products matching original specs and that should last for decades of use.
Yes there is an extra pad and barrel to split each of the left/right shifts into two keys. This is for both the regular and split right shift PCBs.He’s asking about a barrel next to the space bar, not split shift.
Whoops - yes confirmed there is a barrel with no pad as part of the space bar.
At least double. Even IBM offshored some Model F components to Asia, like the PCB.
The springs are moving back to China. I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week.
They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory.
The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPE
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.
mini update + dark gray keys now available to order!
Per the factory the key molds are expected to finish the first week of January. This is the same subcontractor that did a good job with the barrels and flippers (all to spec).
The spring samples should arrive next week. These are made with a new factory that had the exact original standard material that IBM used for their springs (I had them analyzed at a lab). To speed up assembly, the factory expects to build a bulk spring attacher (their prototype could attach one spring and flipper at a time).
Dark gray printed and unprinted sets are now up for order! https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-set-of-brand-new-production-xt-quality-one-piece-keys/
Total cost is $5 less than the $10 expected premium. These will be a limited early bird color to minimize extra setup charges for the final production run next year. You can pick free/other shipping if you want to add keys to your current order.
To keep the project on track and avoid extra assembly variations, these are extra sets only - they can't be your only set or installed set if ordering a keyboard.
Nope the molds are still in production.I can't seem to remember, are these going to be single piece or two piece?
Here are the first factory photos of the unfinished springs made with IBM's original material spec (they have not yet had the final protective finish applied to match the originals).
The springs should be finished up and shipped this week by DHL Express where I will examine them and hopefully sign off on them.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Here are the first factory photos of the unfinished springs made with IBM's original material spec (they have not yet had the final protective finish applied to match the originals).
The springs should be finished up and shipped this week by DHL Express. I will examine them and hopefully sign off on them soon.
...
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.You kind of have to take into consideration the scale of this run as well as the cost of manufacturing and tooling that did not exist before. You're for the capability to make these boards as much as you are the board itself. Also, it's only $395on the upper end, the more netry price is about $325.
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.who cares? it is worth $395 to you, buy it, if not, kick rocks. Personally I hope he's making a decent profit since I'd like to see more projects like this happen and it represents a huge investment of time and research.
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.
Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.
Obviously I don't know the specifics of this particular GB, but I do know from my own past experience that GBs are not a good money-making venture.
$400 is a bargain for these, IMO. Considering that's what a model F cost when they were new (and they were made on a corporate scale, not a hobbyist one), it's not a bad deal at all.
And consider again: most aluminum custom boards with more than one case part (Mech27v2, MIRA, LZ CLS, and The Moon, for example) are $400+ USD, and that's mostly CNC cost.
I'm sure he's taking a bit to cover incidentals, or at least I'd hope so. Something outside of the runner's control almost always goes wrong, so it's important to have the funds to fix it and make a perfect product.
Moreover, I'd like to double down on the point that these are being made on a small scale, with/as custom parts. They are NOT being made on a corporate scale like the model Fs of old, or Corsair boards, or Topre boards. The comparison does't make sense. Corsair sells, from what I've been told, "five figure amounts" of keyboards every month.
Just my 0.02c
Can the barrels be swapped to different layouts? Lets say I ordered a standard right shift and backspace, but I wanted to switch to HHKB shift and backspace down the road. Is that possible?
I'm super excited. Thanks Ellipse.
Pardon my ignorance, but how would a split spacebar work? Would you be re-purposing one of the Alt keys as the "other space", and replacing the single big spacebar with two multi-U keys (not sure how big they'd need to be.. 4U?)?
I would love to do something like that and use one of them as space and the other as a layer trigger.
To what extent would that be supported with the current parts? What should I order to get myself most of the way there and what would I need to make/source myself?
Thanks again!
Nice numbers! Interesting to see the breakdown, I had a feeling the F77 was going to be the big draw.
After seeing how many extra flipper and springs, also barrels, are ordered is this something I should order as well for longevity of the board? I ordered a first aid kit and figured that would be enough to deal with the usual wear and tear. I'm very careful with all my keyboards so I don't expect much trouble with my F77 especially.
Click-Clacked using Tapatalk
Not trying to talk around Ellipse again here (as he is correct, it is not possible on the stock board with any stock keyset)...
A split spacebar is theoretically possible thanks to the extra barrel under the spacebar. This barrel is on all IBM BS keyboards specifically for the Code key used on their typewriters - or at least it is now, as that is the only key they seem to have made that fits in that barrel. Said 2.75u key takes the place of left Alt and requires a stabilizer insert in the normally empty barrel to the right. To make the setup work you would also need the accompanying spacebar, and the spacebar stabilizer clips need to be repositioned (or new clips added) to match the new position. (It is important to note that the Alt keys on both sides will be eliminated, but as these boards are completely programmable it is of little consequence.)
I have confirmed this works on the F107 but have not made new stabilizer clips yet for a permanent install. This mod has probably been done before, but I can not find any pictures at the moment unfortunately.
The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Looks like you are expressing your frustration again. However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board. If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.
Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.
I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..
Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.
Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.
Looks like you are expressing your frustration again. However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board. If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.
Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.
Whatever. Regardless of my "frustrations," aging springs is complete bull****.
And, please, if we were having this conversation over the PCB, that would be "arguably the most important part of the board." Same with anything else. To hear you guys tell it, the adhesive used to hold the model number and info sticker to the bottom of the case will make or break the board.
This isn't perfectionism, this is obsession. This is fixating on things that have negligible, maybe even immeasurable, effects on the end result.
Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.
Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.
First of all, I think a number of things have been done without good reason.
Regardless, Spring steel is fundamentally designed not to "age" or whatever. I'll look for a paper on the subject. Not to mention, exactly what makes you an authority on the subject? And when did I say the spring properties aren't important? Aging is bull****, the design of the spring itself isn't.
And for all this, you think IBM was putting aged springs in the Model F? I don't think so.
As for your testing, Ellipse: placebo effect. You really think the results are significant, then make recordings, do some analysis, and post the findings. Or don't I guess, I mean it's your project.
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
However, I don't think posting an analysis or at least recordings of the differing sounds would be a bad idea. Definitely would be interesting at the very least.
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.
Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.
Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.
I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?
So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.
Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.
There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.
I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.
Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.
Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.
I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?
So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.
Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.
There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.
That's dangerously close to ad hominem.
That being said, what I see is a lot of cult-like faith in both communities, but more so in this one. I don't ascribe to that.
I also see a lot of bad defenses. Blame shifting, etc.
You probably see me as someone who thinks he knows everything, who thinks if given the chance to, for example, run a group buy or even a business would knock it out of the park. And how painfully naive I am, unaware of the multitude of subtleties which lead to almost intractable complication.
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Source: I also have a degree in Materials Science and Engineering
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
High five!High five! :cool:
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
Look up high cycle fatigue. Spring steel is better at resisting fatigue than other types of steel but it’s not magical. Springs steels fatigue just like every other material.Steel doesn't age.Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?
All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.
Model F (and indeed M) springs are not made of stainless steel, and are not completely resistant to rust.
Source:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/mNb6pn3.jpg)
What an excellent place to make an improvement on the original then, with some nice corrosion resistant springs.
The impression I'm under is that, if your spring is changing properties as it's being used, it's being used the wrong way in possibly the wrong environment.
Well just using a spring changes it. :))
Edit: I have a degree in Materials science and engineering.
Frankly, I'm astonished that's the case. At most I would figure that the effect is negligible as far as our ears and fingers are concerned. Are there any good papers on spring fatigue? I couldn't find any.
Source: I also have a degree in Materials Science and Engineering
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
The paper clip is a demonstration of what happens with repeated stressing of a material.
He's trying to replicate the old boards plain and simple.
Well considering this is his project and he stated his goals, he can't use a new material in his mind. He wants that same sound and feel.
Honestly though, why did you even buy into this project?
Take a paper clip and bend it back and forth a ton of times. The fatigue effect is negligible over the short term but since he's trying to recreate old springs and sound there is a bigger effect. Best bet is to search scientific databases though
Paper clip is a totally, totally different material though. And are you talking about plastic or elastic deformation?
That Ellipse is trying to recreate old springs is another thing I take issue with. He has freedom to make improvements, make it better than it was. Why use old technology...
I mean yeah get the sound right, but instead of exact duplication work on making a spring that was totally corrosion resistant, invariant over 10 million cycles, and improved on the original sound (meaning, take what's good about the original sound and amplify it).
Yes...cycle fatigue is a thing. Won't debate that. But how many cycles? And how many times might a single key be cycled in a year?
The paper clip is a demonstration of what happens with repeated stressing of a material.
He's trying to replicate the old boards plain and simple.
Well considering this is his project and he stated his goals, he can't use a new material in his mind. He wants that same sound and feel.
Honestly though, why did you even buy into this project?
Same reason everyone else did? Because I want a really cool keyboard? I admit I don't give two ****s about it being a perfect, exact replica of the original (I'm not sure I've even actually ever used an original Model F). In fact, one of the reasons I bought into this project instead of picking up an SSK on ebay or whatever is because I wanted a fully modernized buckling spring . That the (new) Model F's are advertised as USB plug-and-play and fully programmable was a huge selling point for me. I'm not insignificantly disappointed that similar modernization isn't being applied to the rest of the keyboard.
Personally, I think that - replication vs. improvement - isn't forward thinking, and I don't think it's a defense that holds water.
You didn't answer the paperclip question - plastic or elastic deformation?
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
To be honest, the only people who might be able to answer that question are the ones who engineered that specific spring.
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
Well considering the experiment is to bend the paperclip till it breaks you end up in the plastic deformation regime but the paperclip goes through significant cold working which stiffens the paperclip causing it to fracture easier
Look you're the material scientist, I'm just a lowly physicist, so you know better than I but that's precisely how a spring shouldn't be used. A happy spring is one operating well within its elastic range. I won't paint myself as too familiar but, sure, there is work hardening, probably even tiny plastic distortions, general "too bad we live in the real world where cows aren't spherical" losses, etc. But for a good spring those have got to be absolutely nanoscopic effects.
Nothing is ever wholly elastic though. Yes the deformations are small but with time it still fails.
Exactly, but that's the whole question: for whatever spring Ellipse is using, or a typical keyboard spring I guess in general, what are the time (or cycle) scales like?
5-100 million actuations depending on switch/spring/material
The good news is that if these are made to the same standards as IBM, we know they'll last at least 30-40 years as a minimum before needing replacement foam, and eventually also replacement springs. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
The original timeline for these wasn't 2 years (although it has turned out that way unfortunately). The original intention of this was to be a relatively straightforward and simple effort to bring back from the dead something that hasn't been around for 30+ years.
The original timeline for these wasn't 2 years (although it has turned out that way unfortunately). The original intention of this was to be a relatively straightforward and simple effort to bring back from the dead something that hasn't been around for 30+ years.
Wait is 2 years really the timeline? :( Genuinely curious here. I joined the GB a couple months ago but I still have no idea what the timeline is or if there is one?
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
I enjoy all of ellipse's updates. I'm excited for these to go out.
It seems like I was one of the few people to be excited about the latest springs update. :(
This keyboard is going to be awesome!
Some quick updates:
The inside foam has completed production.
The key molds will be finished up this week and the first tests will be done next week.
The factory was sent one of my XT key sets so that they can exactly reproduce the texture, colors, and other characteristics of the original.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?That's an injection mold for the keycaps.
Maybe unicomp be thinking now, "maybe we should have fixed our tooling", I am curious if this is only going to be used for the model F reproduction or if this would lead to better OG model m/f cap sets as well in the future after the model f.
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
It's an injection mold
Am I the only person who doesn't know what that does?
i'm about 90% sure it's an injection mold
It's an injection mold
Ah, I see the caps one. I take it that the one with the round things on it is for barrels? What's the top one?
I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but in 2014 I emailed Unicomp and desperately tried to make the case that they are missing an opportunity to expand their product line to compete in the rapidly growing enthusiast keyboard market.
Maybe unicomp be thinking now, "maybe we should have fixed our tooling", I am curious if this is only going to be used for the model F reproduction or if this would lead to better OG model m/f cap sets as well in the future after the model f.
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
Dude, give it up. He's very actively communicating with everyone and is not in any way acting suspicious about how he's handling this group buy. You have no beef to pick here. Keep the discussion on topic and relevant.
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!Yes, IBM Industrial Grey please.
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
Amazing milestone.
The industrial IBM gray is super nice imo.
We're talking about the gray color for those black on dark-gray keycaps now, right?
IBM Industrial gray is nice and all, but wouldn't that be... a bit too bright? I thought the idea was to have something aesthetically close to black unlabeled keys, but with subtle legends. Ala the HHKB Dark gray or something like that.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate clean and legible black on gray - and went that way twice with Unicomp Model Ms - but that's not the look that was described in the interest check thread, or the look I signed up for and ordered (twice.) This was used as a reference in the interest check: https://originative.co/products/pbt-carbon-black
I think maybe it'd be wise to try and go ever so more dark than the Orginative set. More like HHKB / Realforce black on dark gray.
That kind of dark-gray combined with a true red case. I think it'll be stunningly nice :D
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
We are 13 keyboards away from 1,000 new keyboards ordered!
How dark should the dark gray key plastic be? Any recommendations?
How far are we away from 1000 keyboards delivered? That's the more important data.
If you're worried about PayPal protection, I think that you can ask for your invoice to be cancelled, and then to be reissued by the op.
This has been angering me for weeks. I don't understand why the hostility towards the progress and timeline or daring to lock this guys money in paypal. This is not an off the shelf product, when this started it was very clear that the prototypes were exactly that. He has been completely transparent on where things are at to everyone's amazement. This is the most complex and ambitious project i have ever seen on geekhack over the 5.5 years I have been here including deskthority and massdrop and other related group buy sources. I dont crap on massdrop as much as others but there is no way even them would take on something like this. This is history people, If you are just here for "a cool keyboard" that you'll get tomorrow then you drastically misunderstand what you bought into. Support Ellipse and help him succeed.
PayPal protection lasts 6 months.
Pancake, if I wished you a good day, would you find something wrong with my statement?
Good day, sir. Good day to you!
...Some people just enjoy being angry all the time.(https://i.imgur.com/JkwE8yA.jpg)
The very first one-piece keys just came out of the new injection molds!
Here is a video of the 1U key injection mold in action! Everything is so automated. All other keys also finished; will post photos later this week.
I will receive the samples from the factory later this month for evaluation.
Even better? Getting one of each. ;P
The only thing better than getting a new model F is getting new model F AND being able to watch and enjoy the process of it being made. :thumb:
The very first one-piece keys just came out of the new injection molds!
Here is a video of the 1U key injection mold in action! Everything is so automated. All other keys also finished; will post photos later this week.
I will receive the samples from the factory later this month for evaluation.
zl_ramiel the PCB batch finished production last year. We're waiting on the Japanese steel springs to be drawn to the proper nonstandard Model F wire diameter and then for the sample springs to be made. Should be done around month end. Hopefully I get the key samples from the new molds around the same time and before CNY break, when there will likely be some pause in the production for a week or two.
The factory has made nice progress on version 2.0 of the key-flipper assembler. It appears to work with pneumatics. This should save significant assembly time and avoid this part of assembly becoming a bottleneck to the project.
A few of each type of the completed production inner foam arrived and they are all excellent.
The key samples arrived and I can confirm that the key texture is an excellent match to the original XT keys. The keys are also great quality - nice thick walls, strong, high quality PBT.
With the next key samples arriving in a week or two, they should be within tolerance (these first sample keys were just to see the key top texture and PBT quality - they do not yet meet the strict tolerances). The factory is still working out the PBT shrinkage issues (PBT is a difficult plastic to work with because it shrinks during the injection molding process).
Soon after I am hoping for the correct key colors for the project to be confirmed (pearl/pebble, blue, etc.).
The spring samples are almost done - just waiting on the finishing stage and then they can mail them.
So it's just the keys, top and bottom inner assembly, springs, and compact cases that are not yet waiting to be assembled. Everything else is boxed and ready for assembly. For storage reasons the outside protective foam and boxes will be done last by the factory, when everything else is just about done.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The spring samples are finished and on their way!
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
The spring samples are finished and on their way!It happening! :Joy:
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
The spring samples are finished and on their way!Fantastic news! Very happy to hear it.
Once the spring samples are approved and the springs finish production, assembly will start!
I have finished the project web site redesign - please check it out and let me know if there are any issues or bugs. http://www.ModelFKeyboards.com
I just upgraded a few orders to single digit serials - just a reminder that this is an option if you want to support the project a little more (help cover the cost overruns) and get your keyboard a couple months earlier. We've passed over 1,000 keyboards and I'll be doing final QC checks on each of them one by one before they ship!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/
Here are the remaining serial numbers:
- Classic Case F77 – sold out
- Classic Case F62 – 2,3,4,6,8
- Compact F77 – 2,3,4,6,7,9
- Compact F62 – 2 through 9 inclusive
I have finished the project web site redesign - please check it out and let me know if there are any issues or bugs. http://www.ModelFKeyboards.com
I just upgraded a few orders to single digit serials - just a reminder that this is an option if you want to support the project a little more (help cover the cost overruns) and get your keyboard a couple months earlier. We've passed over 1,000 keyboards and I'll be doing final QC checks on each of them one by one before they ship!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/
Here are the remaining serial numbers:
- Classic Case F77 – sold out
- Classic Case F62 – 2,3,4,6,8
- Compact F77 – 2,3,4,6,7,9
- Compact F62 – 2 through 9 inclusive
Do you guys recommend getting an extra sheet of pre-cut foam? @Ellipse Are you using the same type of crumbly foam that IBM used or does the new foam have archival properties?
Poke it with your finger, I DARE you.Do you guys recommend getting an extra sheet of pre-cut foam? @Ellipse Are you using the same type of crumbly foam that IBM used or does the new foam have archival properties?
If you bought extra foam with the keyboard, wouldn't it deteriorate in storage just as quickly as the foam in the keyboard?
For whatever its worth, the XT keyboard that I got off eBay not too long ago has its original foam and is doing Just Fine.
I hope to meet some of you at the NJ Keyboard Meetup on Saturday!
Please check out the Popular Mechanics March 2018 print issue and take a look at the article “The Hunt for the Modern Model F”! I can't seem to find the article online just yet - the print issue was just released.
This one's different from the other great Model F article on the Popular Mechanics web site over the summer.
I hope to meet some of you at the NJ Keyboard Meetup on Saturday!
Please check out the Popular Mechanics March 2018 print issue and take a look at the article “The Hunt for the Modern Model F”! I can't seem to find the article online just yet - the print issue was just released.
This one's different from the other great Model F article on the Popular Mechanics web site over the summer.
Someone posted scans of the article in a discord I'm in. Great read!
I‘d love to see photos of today‘s NJ meetup. Would be great, if someone could post links or pictures.
Thanks !!! Have a great weekend !!!!
No links shared here? :(
Your wish is my command. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ifl1b32xtvmxbbo/POPMECH0318.pdf) Article from Pop Mechanic 201803Thanks!
No links shared here? :(
Your wish is my command. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ifl1b32xtvmxbbo/POPMECH0318.pdf) Article from Pop Mechanic 201803
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
What colour is that brownish one in the middle of the second pic there?
Top to bottom
- Black
Standard Beige
Industrial Grey
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat...
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.
Wish I had enough money to just buy all the coloured cases!
I think I'm going to buy an F77 case from the 2nd round to try and make a plate to put Cherry switches in it, because I'm a heathen, obviously...
I'll buy a buckling F77, too... I want to get the F66 AND F77 in this round, but I just don't have enough justification...
And is it just the lighting, or does it look like those black blanks have a lot of shine? Are they prototypes?
That black on black ultra compact is the same spec I am getting... I'm hyped.
The plate is curved, so the height of the switch will influence the spacing of the keys, thus possibly leading to an incorrect spacing. (You should measure the curvature and proceed from there). This will work only for uniform height keys, and will be optimized only for those keys that you account for in the design process.
The buckling spring plate is curved... But the case is flat...
I've got a milling machine, and balls of steel. It'll be a fun project.
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case[attach=1]. Not an angled external case.I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does
I understood that the internal boarder was referencing this part of the case (Attachment Link) . Not an angled external case.I didn't realize this was an actual debate.
...
The internal border of the case has the same curvature of the plate - at least in some model f xt that I've seen. I don't know about this case...
XT/AT had angled (curved?), Fishsaver was flat - presumably the 77 was also flat originally
The F107 has curves in the case, and being that the 62, 77 and 107 are all in the same model family I would wager Ellipse's cases will have curves too.
Original looks pretty flat to meShow Image(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c13e/syh70tiq00tqicp6g.jpg)
There are multiple pictures in Ellipse's OP that show pictures of curved plates and curved mounting points on the cases. On top of that aren't all buckling spring keycaps the same profile? The only way to achieve a sculpted profile would be to have a curved plate.
I never said the plate wasn't curved - this was about the case having the same curve as the plate, which I don't think it does
@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan ;)@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.
I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment.
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?
Ey guys calm down haha. I'm planning on machining off that rounded bit and using a flat plate. It'll be a big job. Don't worry I've got a plan ;)@Ellipse. Sorry if this is off topic in a way but.....I've been loving my IBM 5251 and i'm wondering if a beam spring reproduction(5251 and 3278/79) would ever be on the table at some point?
The amount of work that's went into this is just astronomical. I certainly wouldn't be up to the task even if my life depended on it.
I'm thinking a Beamspring would be even MORE complex. As such, I'd say probably no at the moment.
I could be wrong, though! Who knows?
Thanks but I would like to hear Ellipse chime in on this. The work to design the capsense pcb would be minimal based off of emdudes work and the controller is already available. The switch plate, case and bottom pan are really simple in design. The only issue I see is the cost for injection molds for the switch housing, switch stem and caps. Yes, this would be expensive but it could be done if enough people are willing to purchase.
Not to long ago I would have thought a model f reproduction was crazy and too expensive and yet here we are on the verge of launching the dream. Ellipse has a large customer base and a lot of press built up over the model f reproduction units. Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
Why not take advantage of that and open an interest check for the beam springs?
Because the guy deserves a vacation :thumb:
I'm not denying the fact Ellipse deserves a vacation. All I am asking is if a beam spring reproduction project would ever be on the table, even if it's years from now ;) I don't see my 5251 breaking anytime soon so I'm not concerned about rushing the process. I was just shocked to see how simple the beam spring design actually is when I opened mine up to restore it.
You still need to get the materials and tolerances just right if you're going to do anything more than a one off. You can't realistically hand fit more than one keyboards switches... Each component has to be precise enough to be interchangeable and have enough slop so that they work within the range of tolerances of other parts.
This takes absolutes ages to work out for each individual part, you need to know more than just the dimensions; it's definitely not the case of just doing a 3D scan and sending it off to be made.
If you read how much problems ellipse had sourcing the springs, sorting out the fly plate and beam AND another spring would be a total nightmare. Remember buckling springs are the "simplified" switches - there's definitely more than 3 parts in beam springs.
Plus, iirc they use a totally different mount for caps, so you'd need to make moulds for every single keycap! I seem to remember that each cost about 500$ to make, correct me if I'm wrong.
The, upfront, investment in money and time would be huge. You'd need a lot of buyers to break even, before you even get into profit and getting paid for your time and effort.
Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer... wish it wasn't the case.
I don't know how exactly the Selectric key switch mechanism worked, but I've read that it's incredibly complex and prone to failure, needing a lot of regular servicing. Beamspring switches were prone to dust, and the covering to mitigate that didn't hold up to the test of time. Remember, sometimes replacement versions aren't ONLY about cost savings. I still think Model F was the peak of IBM keyboard technology, balancing feel, cost, and longevity, but the single beamspring keychain switch I have does feel sublime.
It seems to me the royal "we" should be able to come up with a new key switch that replicates the mechanism and thus feel of beamspring, but allows it to be durable and incorporated into modern form factors. Of course that would mean it wouldn't be an Ellipse-type reproduction at all, would it?
The key factory has returned from the holiday break and will now start working on the PBT key tolerances. The keys need to be a little smaller coming out of the mold so they need to adjust and test the molds. They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.
The factory is ready to start the dark gray color mixing. It's difficult for me to tell from the keyboard photos. What's a recommended Pantone/RAL value for the dark grey printed keys? Please post your recommendations. I'll also cross post in the other thread.
They are experimenting with the PBT color mixing to get the right colors.This is critical, especially to match the original IBM pebble and pearl color scheme.
I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.
I wonder if the force - displacement of the new keyboards will be close to the old ones.
This site is probably the best source for force - displacement graphs, there are resources for cherry, IBM etc
https://plot.ly/~haata/200
(Attachment Link)
Key Success! The key factory told me they have successfully corrected the key molds and showed me a video of the new keys and barrels working smoothly! I will of course evaluate the samples when they arrive in a couple weeks to make sure all tolerances are met. Below is a photo from one of the key molds. Once the PBT material, tolerances, and colors are approved then key production will start.
After that the keys will need to be dye sublimated. The sample keys from the new factory successfully accepted dye sublimation on their key tops but the dye sublimation techniques to reduce bleeding and ensure deep black text are still being worked on. As noted in the February update the factory got the key top texture perfect their first try!
Sorry there has not been much to update the first few weeks back into production this month. The factory is still at work on the project.
The first new production parts will be shipping this week - those who ordered only F122 or F107 foam! If you need your foam early and would like separate shipping please let me know.
The ultra compact cases and inner assembly parts are still in production. Some unfinished F77 ultra compact case tops are in the photo below.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Today I packed the first Brand New Model F production parts for shipment! F107 and F122 foam are going out tomorrow.
If you want F107 or F122 foam please order soon. I have only 4 left of the F122/F107 foam and that will be it for early shipping (the rest will ship later this year).
Feel free to email or PM me with your order number and new address.
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Doesn't adjustment mean "remachine" the mold? And these things are tens of thousands of dollars, and we've had how many "adjusted"? How is that possible?
It's kind of surprising they can't 3D print these molds yet. There's already a process for 3D printing aluminum.
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used!
So you solved one of the problems of the model f, yet you decided to get the louder and lower quality springs? I need the Japanese springs thanks.
The springs will be Japanese even though he's changing the material being used. It's the same factory.
Update on the springs: The Japanese material springs were technically perfect, within spec, but too quiet - higher end than what IBM used! They lacked the full volume Model F resonance after a pressed key is released.
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways. Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible. If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring.
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.Well stated. He could have deviated tens if not hundreds of different ways. Best to stick to the plan and keep it as close to authentic as possible. If there was a hard cutoff for shipping, sure he would have to use the quieter spring.
does the buy period still end on 4/30?
I'm sure no matter what material is used for the springs, it'll be too loud for most offices. I'd prefer it to be quieter, but I think the best path will be the authenticity path, it's what we signed up for.
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
TBH I'm feeling a little swindled - I thought the buy period ended when I ordered mine, I didn't realise it reset each month: while the exact formula of the spring material gets lab-tested and recreated to 6 decimal places, years have passed and orders are still being taken with no end in sight.
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
Sunk cost/time fallacy. Or maybe not fallacy in this case, who knows. IDK. Don't look at me.
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
People like drama, I guess.
It fascinates me why there are some who don't just ask for a refund and move along with their lives.
People like drama, I guess.
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
These things can take a long time. They just do.
I haven't contacted any lawyer yet.
Project notes/terms and conditions/risks
I ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.
Refund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
I'm with you on this, but my gripe is the countdown which resets every month. If it's ongoing, take down the counter and arbitrary non-existent deadline. At best it's misleading; at worst it's downright dishonest, a trick intended to ensnare buyers into thinking it's now or never.
I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :QuoteProject notes/terms and conditions/risksQuoteI ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.QuoteRefund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.
That's a statement that won't hold up in court.I understand the disappointment of having to wait longer than anticipated, but the "orders are final" aspect of the project has been in place for as long as I can remember. Here's some text from the site :QuoteProject notes/terms and conditions/risksQuoteI ask that you read through these carefully before placing an order.QuoteRefund/cancellation policy: Given this is a made-to-order product with an expected lead time of several months, refunds and/or cancellations can not be accepted once your keyboard goes into production (keyboards are currently in production). All sales are final.
That aspect of the project should not have been a surprise.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
That's a statement that won't hold up in court.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Yeah, well, of course it‘s both ways. I guess you haven‘t been on the other side where you are a small business and you want to protect yourself from douchbag customers.QuoteThat's a statement that won't hold up in court.
Right cause everyone reads the terms and conditions :rollseyes:
Right exactly cause they are there to cover the asses of the corporations/whatever, so they put all their slimy **** in there knowing no one reads it.
"Well sorry your 13 year old spent 2000$ on loot boxes but see the game is rated mature so...and also, like, it's not really gambling..."
You get the idea.
This discussion is irrelevant anyway considering Ellipse didn't write the 1000 page "we know they won't read this **** just to use our image editor" terms and conditions people have legitimate gripes with anyway. If you're getting into a GB where you're spending hundreds of dollars and something like order cancellation is important to you and you can't be assed to read a few paragraphs, that's entirely on you.I didn't even notice the countdown thing when i ordered mine last year. Personally I'd assume he set it up when he initially thought everything was just about done and then forgot about it or something. It doesn't seem to serve any actual purpose.
I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.
I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open :))
Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).
I will say though that the fake countdown is pretty odd and I'm not sure why it's ever been a thing.
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back. I am being patient, for now. I haven't contacted any lawyer yet. But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.
Similar story here, I bought an F62 as a dissertation gift for myself that would get delivered soon after my defence according to the initial estimate. Here we are, two years after receiving my PhD, still no keyboard. Hey, at least the "early" bird round is still open. Good thing I got my order in early so I secured a slot.I've been looking for a few dates for the current production run, but haven't found anything.
When do orders for this run close?
Also, If I just ordered an F62, would I probably be receiving it this year, or later?
This is a "when it's done" project. Your mileage may vary with that concept, I know mine certainly has. I placed my order well over a year ago, and long ago started to ignore any provided dates or deadlines.
Optimistically, I would guess the first boards will be shipped not sooner than 6 months from now. Pessimistically, Q1 2019. Maybe.
Ha, yes. I was 28 when I rushed to get into the 'early bird' allotment. Next month I'm 31 and it's still open :))
Personally, while this project is very ambitious and commendable, I would save your money for a 2nd round (unless you've got cash to burn).
Same here.
Early bird order back when my son was about to be born. 27 months later and my daughter is about to be born :D
I did, in fact, ask for a refund. I was told that it's a made-to-order product, so no refunds.
However, I'm quite sure that under US law the seller does have to actually deliver at some point or give money back. I am being patient, for now. I haven't contacted any lawyer yet. But Ellipse needs to be aware that this can't go on indefinitely.
Welcome to crowed funding. With the precidents kickstarter and indie gogo have put forth legally I doubt anyone would have luck.
That said meh we get status updates regularly and it looks good to me. I'll wait patiently.
Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs. The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment. Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.
If the keys prove to be a long bottleneck I will offer the option for those who have ordered to go with Unicomp keys to ship these keyboards out without further delay, for those who do not want the keys from new molds.
Many of the parts have finished production already and are waiting for assembly - die cast cases, flippers, barrels, controller PCB's, capacitive PCBs. The top and bottom inner assembly are in production and one key mold is good while the other needs adjustment. Right now we just need the springs, keys, and dye sublimation to finish and then the keyboards can be assembled and ship.
Thanks for the update, Ellipse! How are the compact cases coming along?
vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?
There would be more cost and complexity if there was more than one sku of spring.vewy_nice everyone will be getting the same XT quality springs. The tooling and logistical time and cost for custom springs would be higher.
lol what? Isn't that literally what you're doing?
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Don't worry about it, the counter resets at the end of the month, every month.
I'm not worried about it - I'm irritated and borderline concerned by it. The endless nth degree of investigation and orders still being taken makes it look like a good chunk of the $500k has been blown through and more orders are needed to keep this ball rolling. There's a word beginning with "p" that describes a scheme where new investors are needed to pay off returns for existing investors until collapse in a closed system. I hope this is not that.
I'd like some reassurance from Ellipse that enough of the funds already received have been set aside for actual products already pledged, and that new orders are only to allow people to jump on the train. He can mess with the exact formulation of the materials all he wants, so long as it's not all that will come of this endeavour with nothing to show for it at the end other than spec sheets.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
This. So much this.
Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.
Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.
Not gonna lie, since I only got aware of this project last month, I almost just now rushed out to order one when the poster above implied April 30th is the final deadline.
Will probably get one eventually, but yeah, at this point, no rush.
What's up, mkawa?
In any case, unless the deadline is fixed and immovable, it should be removed immediately, with a realistic timeline put in its place and very good reason and notification on why any deadline gets renewed. If there is no clear end, say there is no clear end and let people take that informed risk. As it stands this is uninformed risk, the worst kind of risk.
I agree with this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm excited as hell.
No doubt in my mind that ultimately, Ellipse is going to deliver.
However, the one thing that has bothered me is the moving deadline, as you mention. Back in early 2016 when I discovered the project, I was scrambling to get my earnings together. Foregoing other expenses under the guise that in ten days time, I'd lose out on the chance to get in on the project. Two years on, I could've saved up comfortably in retrospect. I'm not sure why the monthly deadlines are still being advertised.
I think that an "open" deadline would be more appropriate.
Once all the parts are up to standard, announce a fixed deadline.
This. So much this.
Do you understand why the Model F is praised and why it's reproduction important for this community?
Do you understand why Unicomp key caps are not desirable and why he put so much effort into the caps?
Do you understand why the springs are so important on a BUCKLING SPRING keyboard? even if this was a cheaper Model M reproduction the springs would still need to be perfect--a minor imperfection would make all the efforts on caps, cases, barrels, etc mean NOTHING. I am thrilled so much effort is being spent on them.
Ellipse has been very clear from the beginning that there will be two rounds of manufacturing. This round is still called the "early bird" round. I don't understand where any fear of missing out could have come from, unless it was to get a single digits serial number or something.
Key dates:Via: https://www.web.archive.org/web/20160412171546/https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.0
Now through 2/29/2016: Early bird round. Ships in April/May. No extra cost to you versus the regular round.
3/1/2016 through 6/30/2016: Regular round - last chance! Ships in August/September.
I think you have a short memory lad. Early bird was to get your board delivered before the rest of the first round. Originally in April/May 2016....
STILL CAN BE ORDEREDI've been watching this project since the very beginning. I made a choice to wait and see reviews from actual customers of the early bird round before I decided whether to buy during the ordering period of the "regular"/second round. I have never once thought I might miss out on the chance to order.
* Everything. I have ordered extra keyboards and parts for the early bird round, which will be ongoing while supplies last. Then there will be a final round for about a month after the early bird keyboards are delivered.
Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
It's not one time only. There will be a short second round that will run sometime after the first round keyboards are delivered. But after that Ellipse has said there will be no more manufacturing runs.Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.
Is this the final deadline, or do you need to collect more funds to continue and complete?Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Eg3LUCE.jpg)
Hi I'm new and type with my pointer fingers and just like collecting keycaps and have yet to build my first custom. Why do i want a model F?
In either case, I wouldn't rush into this [GB] - it looks like it's time sensitive one time only ending soon, but it's been running for a while with no end in sight. Watch the deadline auto-update +1mo. in the coming days.
This GB started the year I got serious about mechanical keyboards. I was hesitant then until I saw reviews, and I still am.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day :thumb:
A mini update on keys, springs, and the timeline concerns:Thank you for your insight. I cannot wait to try a high-quality, refined product onto which you've poured your valuable time, knowledge, and effort. Thanks for your diligence, Ellipse.
Update on keys: the factory tells me they have finished adjusting the key molds and the new key samples will be ready next week! The factory has also prepared the molds to use the original PBT material IBM used on their Model F keyboards, the material that I learned from the IBM engineer (different PBT shinkage rate)! They are still working on color matching the PBT to an original XT key set I mailed them last year.
Update on springs: Half the new spring samples have been completed! Hoping for the remaining 4 variants to be done by the end of this week or next week, and then they will all be mailed to me for evaluation.
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Regarding the project timeline: Fortunately the major production problems from last year were resolved by the factories and most parts are waiting in storage for assembly. Hoping for springs and keys to finish up this month. Assembly can start once the springs finish production.
The project's goal from the beginning is to produce new Model F keyboards to IBM's quality standards. I have chosen to delay the tentative early bird and final round timelines rather than compromise on quality or aesthetic and material authenticity of parts to meet a deadline.
The timeline has been delayed significantly due to factory production quality control problems that have since been resolved save the keys and springs, detailed on the web site updates blog page. I understand that some of you disagree with the philosophy and management of the project and setting of (in hindsight) too optimistic, changing deadlines. You are right that for many projects, there should be a deadline and if there is one it should not change.
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning. The timelines and deadlines are based on my and the factory's current estimations. I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward. Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders. The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories. The factories have now met these standards in all but the remaining two parts (springs and keys) and have been extremely patient and accommodating despite this project being one of their smallest and probably most time consuming.
As noted before, to reduce the possibility of additional delay, I am willing to send out those orders without keys and with blank keys (or even use Unicomp keys, for those requesting the option) in the event the keys become a significant and sole bottleneck to the project and some people want earlier delivery.
We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.
A saying I’ve heard definitely applies here – on time, high quality, at a good cost – but you can only pick two of the three! This project will continue to focus on the latter two: build brand new Model F keyboards to IBM standards and not accept anything less from the factories.
Ha, I haven't heard this before. Works nicely with a lot of projects on here. Of course it'd be nice to have all three one day :thumb:
agree
really good insight
Are you handling all of this yourself, Ellipse? I haven't really kept up on this since...2015? Whatever was the first year this GB started.
I once commented that the shipping process would take a long time with all of these orders, probably adding at least a few months even after production is complete. Ellipse's response seemed to imply he would be handling it alone. Someone once asked if he had a backup plan in case he died, and he said he didn't (Odd question, I know).
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
Nope.Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.Nope.Kavik, I ended up hiring the factory to take care of almost all of the configuration, assembly, testing, and QC so that it won't take me as long to send these out. They are building a pneumatic spring-flipper attachment tool for mass production assembly (photos on the web site blog).
Sorry if this has been answered i'm new to the project what's the plan for sale after the GB is over. Will these be commercially available?
any idea how long I have to order?
...We don’t know when early bird will end but after it does there will be a 1-2 month regular buying period. No need to rush the order since there will be plenty of heads up before this ends.
any idea how long I have to order?
A major YouTube reviewer was asking about getting a loaner in that case color.Please tell me that it is chyros (https://www.youtube.com/user/Chyrosran22).
-- Nathan
Yet it does not make sense to close this project's first round arbitrarily to stay true to a deadline if the factory is delayed in its goal to complete production and assembly (with all QC and other production issues worked out), nor does it make sense to eliminate dates and close the round when the factory is ready to ship, with little to no warning.
I will not remove deadlines or other timelines or imply there is no deadline, even though they have proven sooner than the factories' actual results and have been pushed forward. Allowing extra orders does not impact the timeline for existing orders. The project window could be moved again if the springs or spring assembly require more time.
We are getting there and I thank everyone for their support and patience as we move towards the final stage.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/
Know Any Marketing/Kickstarter Experts? Planned Model F Kickstarter/Indiegogo Campaign!
May 10, 2018
In the final round’s month or two of accepting orders for the Brand New Model F Keyboards project (after early bird keyboards are shipped of course), I am still planning on a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign and could use any advice from those involved with major tech hardware campaigns in the past. I have been reading up on this, and thankfully a couple experts have already reached out and have been a great help.
I think the additional venue will help the factory to make as many new Model F keyboards as possible and open the project up to those more comfortable working through the Kickstarter/Indiegogo sites.
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
:DIBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
The blue one.
IBM noob here, which is the blue sample?
The blue one.
Wow, beautiful. The one withe F1 print is original right?
Springs-the factory rejected the second group of samples they were working on due to poor quality material. They will source the spring material from another supplier and remake the remaining springs this month.
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
The 80% black keys look right to me, though they are difficult to photograph correctly (the black keys look more noticeably darker than the grey keys in person). Is this the right color people are looking for?
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I think it's fine and he should get the things made already and get this keyboard shipped absolutely ASAP.
Isn't that not the point though? Probably the wrong buy to be in if you want it ASAP
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.
Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
Thanks for the update. As you've said, it's tough from the photo to notice a difference between the two (at least for my aging, computer-strained eyes). Even if it's more noticeable in person, I think maybe the grays could be slightly lighter.
What does everyone else think?
I feel like if you haven't had an aneurysm after stressing out so much over the course of two years, you'll probably be fine waiting longer for something that is actually right.
Dude don't give me that "you're in the wrong buy" ****. I know what's going on, I know what the point of this is, but I still have issues with how it's being managed.
Not to mention I've already been in it for almost two goddamned years now. There is a distinction between impatience and "wtf is going on here already?"
I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.Condescension aside...
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
And yet we can't forget that that was his stated goal from the beginning, yet you still joined and complained.I don't want something like a Model F. I want a new Model F.
Which, as everyone knows, I think is both infeasible and dumb.
I'm like a million percent sure that, if Ellipse shipped to us exactly what he's got right now, we would all be beyond happy with what we received.
Anyway whatever.
Somehow getting this across to you guys is, like, not possible. My complaint isn't with the stated goal, although having thought about it since I've joined I have concerns there too, but with management and other behaviors I've witnessed. Moreover, I know for a fact that the differences from some of the things that are causing months of delays over so-called "attention to detail" will end up being totally negligible and unnoticeable.
Like there is a level of insanity going on here that is ignored under the guise of attaining "perfection." It's unreasonable. One of my concerns is that, by striving for this unattainable goal, a worse product will be made over a longer period of time than if some of these stringent constraints were relaxed.
This is like "I want to make a Model T. I want to perfectly replicate it and change nothing, even though I have a vast array of modern technology available to me. The only thing I want to change is adding a CD player. Everything else must be identical, for better or worse."
Also, for ****ing goddamns sake, stop with the "yet you still joined" bull****. It is SO ANNOYING. I joined this two years ago, just when I had gotten into mechanical keyboards, and at the time didn't fully understand how this community and the projects within it worked. When I joined, I was much more naïve and oblivious.
and yet here you are
To add, and this is by far my biggest gripe, the fake countdown right now, once again, makes it look like its done at the end of this month. We were all naïve, and new joiners are likely similarly naive thinking it's this close, based on misleading info. Unless anyone interested reads two years of history and each spinoff discussion, claiming "you knew what you were getting into" is spurious. It can be claimed all the information is there, somewhere, to make an informed decision, but I argue obfuscated and opaque info is as good as none, especially for the novice.
And as to "it'll take all the time it needs": What is your cut off point? Would you be OK with another year's wait? Two more? Three? How much time is Ok for the last 5% if we're at 95% after two years?
The fake countdown is definitely what kicked off my paying closer attention to the management of this project...
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...We need an "after"
https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
I'm curious about what other people's guesses are for when these boards are going to ship so I'm posting a straw poll...We need an "after"
https://www.strawpoll.me/15751137/r
I was originally joining for 2 or 3 of these boards but decided to cancel my order because I wanted to be on the safe side of things. During that time, these were supposedly shipping very soon (that was the first deadline for the initial GB before it was extended multiple times) I've been burned by multiple GB in the past so I recommend getting a refund and then requesting for a re-invoice to ensure that you stay within the protection period PayPal offers.
Any more thoughts on the 60% dark gray v. 80% dark gray keys? So far I am leaning towards changing it to 60% unless people are fine with 80%.
Another mini update:
The key factory is fixing up the molds and expects to be finished by the end of next week. They are also working on the color matching. So we could have the final samples in hand in ~2 weeks and then start mass production of the keys in June.
The spring factory is still working on the final samples. They had to put in a special order at the wire factory in Japan as the wire is no longer common enough to stock.
We are wrapping up here. Again my apologies for the long factory production delays, and I thank those who are excited as I am about bringing the Model F back into production!
Speaking of wrapping, I have ordered a gummed paper tape dispenser and tape so the actual keyboard boxes will have a more professional IBM-like appearance, along with the dot matrix printer and green bar computer paper for everyone's packing slip. IBM used paper tape on shipping boxes of many of their 1980s computers and Model F keyboards, and also on their 1390131 two-pack shipping boxes - see third photo here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/brand-new-in-box-ibm-1390131-model-m-keyboard/
Catching everyone up on the project:
After speaking with some very helpful advisers including engineers and someone who helped run a successful large Kickstarter campaign, I waited until the factories were able to produce fully functional prototypes for $350 or less before accepting any orders. That was probably the most important piece of advice I've received for this project.
I have studied the challenges of hardware projects, especially those requiring less conventional production processes. One of the issues with some crowdfunded projects revolves around developing new technology and the project fails as they ran out of development resources - this issue is not the case here as the software and controller firmware were fully developed thanks to xwhatsit and the factory has completed the Model F molds and tooling for all the plastic and metal parts (save the keys) so the final round will be able to go much more smoothly. The Model F parts went into production with no yield issues. I read recently about e-ink phone cases and 3D VR headphones as examples of production and technology development problems resulting in them running out of money.
In summary - 100% functionality was achieved with the prototypes; the factory delays have enabled us to move towards meeting the original Model F aesthetics, sound, and experience:
We are not missing our goal here of a Brand New Model F because the factory have completed production of functional Model F parts. All but the keys and springs passed my inspection, were produced, and are boxed up waiting to be assembled. The factories have eventually succeeded in producing the several hundred thousand parts I've ordered so far - PCBs, die cast cases, flippers, barrels, ribbon cables, inner steel assemblies, etc.
In general the factory production delays have historically focused on whether to proceed with the original timeline with working but substandard parts or rejecting the prototypes to make the new Model F as close to the originals as possible - I have always chosen the latter option. Few issues were with parts being non-functional. The goal of this project from the beginning has been a reproduction of the Model F, not a Model F style keyboard.
The two "key" parts remaining are the key sets and springs. The factory has proven they can make the springs within tolerance; just trying to get them to sound as close as possible to the original Model F.
If the keys become a bottleneck we will still be able to deliver the orders using Unicomp keys for those who would prefer not waiting any longer for the new keys (but again almost all of the keys are now approved and within spec, and the factory is just finishing up a few corrections and matching colors).
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!ellipse you madman
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!Absolute mad man.
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
ok Kavik I have requested 60% gray key samples from the factory.
(Attachment Link)
great ag36.
On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.
The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC. Back then these keyboards were much newer. I have reviewed the sound of our Model F. (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though). It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb. The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today. No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122. With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.
Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.
I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.
Spring Success! Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production! The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.Really excited that the springs are chosen! One less item on the list. Now to tackle those keycaps!
I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122). It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration. I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.
I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.
Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more. Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.
Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals. We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Spring Success! Out of the 12 samples we have one match that will be approved for production! The search is finally complete after several dozen unique spring variations over the past few years.
I would say it is as nice or even nicer (less worn out) than my original gold standard reference (off my 1984 6110344 F122). It has a sharp click followed by a solid resonance that is not too high in pitch, not too low in volume, and not too short in duration. I was surprised the match was so close to not only any original Model F spring but to my reference spring/flipper.
I hope to bring the new springs (along with the keyboard prototypes) to the NY meetup on Saturday and to my Bay Area (CA) Model F meetup I am trying to set up on July 7.
Regarding the key options discussion over on DT, yes the other CM style keys and number pad keys without sublegends like "Home" will be offered but they will likely ship later/separately so we do not delay things even more. Feel free to PM me if interested in adding.
Fortunately ag36, GH member Zed drew the legends himself and they are an excellent match to the originals. We will need to test them and adjust for bleed, etc. after producing dye sub samples on the production keys.
Please consider to add also the option for a more muted spring. While this is a "philological" project, many have asked to have a quieter option.
The new key samples arrived!Wow. Those look fantastic, and the color matching is pretty much spot-on.
They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)
The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below. I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.
They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.
Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below? Hint: The stepped key is original!
Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before. As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.
(Attachment Link)
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!Every time I get to see your samples, I get excited about these coming soon. I hope we can see the finish line soon!
Nice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!
Second that! If somebody took vid or pics of the boards, please put it online. Dying to see what the latest revision looks likeNice meeting everyone at the NYC meetup today! Great turnout!
I hope someone made photos (or even videos) and can share. I wish I could be there.
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It is the angle of the photo.
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
Pix look great to me.There's no reason to make the F107
Now if we could only convince you to do the 4704/F107!!!!!
It's far easier to get one of those compared to an F62 or especially an F77.
Well, the number of available F107 seem to shrink. I asked some of the few sellers and they all told me that the available ones are super limited and no more can be found in the wild. I try to get one since some time now and working ones are very hard to find (without even talking about the price).
Look at the F122, they are available in much higher quantity and they currently sell for US$500 and more. Seems like two factors have come into play - the demand is rising and/or the availability is dwindling.
The new key samples arrived!
They achieved a perfect match to the gray/pebble XT key samples I sent them! (even IBM had some color variance in the pearl and pebble over the years so this will not match all IBM keys)
The 60% dark gray samples also arrived and are shown below. I think it's the best we can do to have a legible legend but please let me know what you think.
They fixed some of the out of tolerance issues from the prior batch but still need to make a few more adjustments on some of the larger keys and take care of the pearl and Industrial SSK Blue colors.
Can you tell all the new keys apart from the originals in the photo below? Hint: The stepped key is original!
Also pictured is the approved spring on a production flipper (the spring not only sounds great but it also matches the dull gray appearance of many of the originals!) and production barrels that were completed before. As always the colors are not 100% accurate in these photos.
(Attachment Link)
Yes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.
That's not what I signed up for, with the "black legends on lighter black PBT" option. :(
It looks significantly lighter than Orginative's Carbon Black that was used as an example in the interest check thread (And even that one is lighter than I prefer personally.)
Personally I feel like the one in that picture will not look good, neither in a black nor in a red case. It will make the legend very legible, but that was never the point of the dark grey option from what I understand.
Let me repeat the quote from the DA thread, that the interest thread was based on:QuoteYes if someone wants to track interest in black legends on lighter black PBT we'd need 20 sets to proceed but I'd be up for it as a lower priority add on set only.
Hopefully you'll understand this criticism and consider doing something about it - but if this is the color you go for I'm certain that I'm not the only one who will be disappointed.
Good legends isn't a priority with black on black keycaps - most sets keep them barely legible. To me the whole point of black legends on black keycaps is to prioritize aesthetics above functionality but still have subtle legends so that they keycaps don't look as empty as normal blank caps.
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month! Pricing changes to reflect free US shipping
Next month marks the start of Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly! Assembly will start with attaching over 100,000 springs to their flippers using a custom built machine (link below).
After the approval of the springs earlier this month, they have entered production. Outside of the keys this is the final part we were waiting on. The keys are not yet in production as a few keys in the mold need to be adjusted.
The factory will make about a thousand springs next week to start with, and then official Brand New Model F Keyboard assembly will start with the spring-flipper attacher (photos here)!
I will then inspect the quality of the first production springs on the flippers to make sure they are in line with the approved samples they provided.
Pricing changes: free US shipping now built into item prices; same overall cost though. I have been getting many questions on shipping, so to make things easier I have changed shipping to be free in the US and increased pricing by the amount of the original shipping charge ($21). I’ve also disclosed shipping costs for each region on the store page and each Brand New Model F keyboard page. International shipping has also been discounted to reflect the $21 pricing increase so that the out of pocket is the same with this change. The accessory key sets have gone up $4 to help cover prototyping overages. Please note that existing orders will not have to change to reflect the new pricing. Shipping Rates — US: Free. Canada: $39.92. Europe/Asia/South America: $49.30. Australia/New Zealand: $69.59.
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set. Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).
International shipping has also been discountedMarvelous, i assume that will change nothing for the older payers.
jzono1 I have approved the 60% keys as they achieved our objective to match the original reference Carbon Black set. Please ask me after the first round finishes and I will consider other colors if there is a MOQ (about 20-30 sets).
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month!
June Update 2: Final Model F assembly starts next month!
@EllipseThe final ordering round will be open 1-2 months after the early-bird round ships. Early-bird has just started assembly so it’ll definitely still be open at the end of July.
Is the order window going to be open through July? I keep wanting to get into this but it's never the right time money-wise.
@Ellipse
Is the order window going to be open through July? I keep wanting to get into this but it's never the right time money-wise.
Thanks for attending the Bay Area Model F meetup everyone! It was nice meeting all of you! In case anyone was curious on feedback from the meeting there was also some discussion on DT (also posted on the meetup thread for sake of completeness):
https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/bay-area-ca-brand-new-model-f-meetup-7-7-t19299.html
Was fortunate enough to see some of the latest samples in person and play around with them!Hell yeah, dude. Are you in for one?
Was fortunate enough to see some of the latest samples in person and play around with them!Hell yeah, dude. Are you in for one?
Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk
A mini-update - progress on keys, springs, and P clips:Pretty cool machine there.
Keys are approved for production! Industrial SSK blue color is a match and has been approved!
After 6 months of retooling the molds, the factory has succeeded! All keys and stabilizer inserts function and operate well with the barrels. The factory will either start production on all colors except pearl/off-white, or they will wait until that color is approved (they are still working on the PBT color mixing as the previous samples were very close but not an exact match).
First tests of the custom built pneumatic spring attacher!
P clips are almost finished! The P clip secures the cable inside the classic die cast zinc cases to minimize risk of damage to the USB port on the xwhatsit controller. Just another example of molds and tooling needing to be built from scratch because none of the original Model F tooling survived. Attached are photos of the P clip stamping tool and inspection process.
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Yes sorry for the delays on the updates for addresses.
Pearl color key samples are expected tomorrow! Hopefully they will be an exact color match to the 1984 F122 / XT keys.
Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=79141.0;attach=126079;image)
Call me crazy, but if it pushed up shipping, I'd be happy to install my own keys. Just give me a bag of them. Not sure how much that would change shipping times or impede QA, though.The keys need to be installed for testing.
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
Does anyone else need PC AT / F122 / F107 foam? I still have extras that can go out this month. I sent out all the current orders of just foam.
I would be happy to purchase those, but delivery cost to Italy - and to Europe in general - is too high.
Production on the final two keyboard parts continues this month. The dye sub supplier is not yet finished with the key samples.
We've reached $599,000 in orders so far!
I am glad that so many people have ordered the extra parts which will keep these keyboards running smoothly long after production ends. Even if you don't end up needing them it's good that they are out there in case someone else in the community needs them. So far 3,000+ extra individual flippers+springs, 1,700+ barrels, and 275 First Aid Kits have been ordered along with 1,300+ F62/F77 keyboards. I hope everyone can spread the word about the great Model F keyboards so they are not lost to history.
Sure, please email me if you decide to change.
Sure, please email me if you decide to change.
Should be around year end or early next year.Pmd you about changing case color. Should I have sent email instead?
Video of me typing for the first time on a Model F in 1990:
The first keyboard I typed on was a Model F, attached to an IBM PC 5150 or 5160.
The video camera happened to be rolling!
Also below are photos of the completed springs. It is interesting that 5,000 springs can be packed in one bag!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Good lord, you're young. I was rocking a sweet mullet in Jr. High at that date.
Good lord, you're young. I was rocking a sweet mullet in Jr. High at that date.
wait i didn't realize there was blue cuz it wasn't on the site, wtfhttps://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/ (https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/)
Video of me typing for the first time on a Model F in 1990:
The first keyboard I typed on was a Model F, attached to an IBM PC 5150 or 5160.
The video camera happened to be rolling!
Also below are photos of the completed springs. It is interesting that 5,000 springs can be packed in one bag!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
I notice that the order deadline got pushed back to October 31st. Were there any delays in manufacturing or did you just want to give people more time to order?
I notice that the order deadline got pushed back to October 31st. Were there any delays in manufacturing or did you just want to give people more time to order?
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.html
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmlAdd MORE noise to my model F? Sign me up!
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmli'm in too :-[
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.If its at the right price id totally want one as well.
Anyone interested in adding a solenoid to their Model F? Some folks over at DT seem to have found a compatible new production solenoid that can be used with orihalcon's xwhatsit solenoid drivers. It would be great for someone to maybe do a group buy of those - I believe there is significant interest for adding solenoids to Model F keyboards with a possible discount for shipping in bulk. These should fit in the classic case F62 and F77 keyboards. Looks like here is one listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-6V-0-3A-11W-Actuator-Linear-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-w-Base/32267295277.htmlI’d be interested in a solenoid as well.
The new Model F xwhatsit controllers have the expansion header pins to allow for this. https://imgur.com/GyG1wi4
Great, I've asked orihalcon to get in touch with those expressing interest as he's the only one who sells the solenoid driver xwhatsit add on board.I'd love one too if it wasn't too much trouble to install. I was previously wondering if there was some sort of USB controlled solenoid that could be retrofitted relatively easily to any keyboard but nothing came of that.
As we wait through this final stretch of the whole manufacturing quest, which has been so much longer than many of us anticipated… I find that my taste in keyboards has actually changed a fair bit since the time when I placed my order, and I'm dithering over whether I should change my order, assuming that's even possible now. With all the parts already produced, it would be perfectly understandable if it can't be changed. On the other hand, the website appears to still be taking new orders for this first production run?
Like so many before me, I've given 60% keyboards a try, and I've learned that they actually work pretty well for me. Thus, here I am scratching my head and wondering if I would prefer the F62 instead of the F77 that I put in for. The F62 is arguably better looking, space saving, and would let me keep the keyboard closer to my mouse as I have become accustomed now. And those extra 15 keys, well… What are they really good for?
It would be so much better if the 15-key pad was on the left instead of the right. But you know, it's a replica of the IBM, from an era before there was any such thing as a "mouse". They designed it the way they designed it, and it is what it is.
On the other hand, I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips. Obviously the F62 doesn't have that. (Again, it is what it is.) So I'd be looking at:Show Image(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f62_layout.png)
My key assignments are all based on Linux usage, by the way. So, I don't need Windows or Menu keys. I love my Compose key, but it can be programmed to work with a tap of Right-Alt.
If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow. I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.Show Image(http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/model_f77_layout.png)
And then it occurs to me that if this thing is really good (as we all hope), then there is supposed to be a second production run (which, I assume, shouldn't take years to get done), and I could end up getting both versions anyhow.
What do you guys think?
...I've been using a split-spacebar keyboard (Banana Split 60) with a FN key right in the center, so I can simply press down my thumb and have all my nav keys right under my fingertips. Obviously the F62 doesn't have that.
If I have to use both hands to navigate (with my right hand performing the critical task of holding down the FN key!), maybe I'd just be just as well off with the F77 anyhow. I mean, if I've got to take my right hand off the trackball, I might as well move it to the 15-key pad and do my navigating there.
I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.Thanks for your awesome dedication and persistence. It is fantastic to have someone so passionate about the quality of the final product.
...
The assembly process delays are frustrating but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards.
Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals? So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.
Should we add the QC inspection signature labels on the inside of the keyboards (bottom inner assembly) like the originals? So far the consensus on DT is no as it would delay the 1,400 keyboards going out.
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.Incredibly tempting, especially for a black case. #13 is also one of my favorite numbers, as it was my jersey # when I was an athlete. What kind of case did you pick? Is it original Kishsaver style in black? Or the ultracompact?
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
Hey all, looking to let go of my order. I'm #13 on the F62. HHKB style split backspace. Regular blank keycaps. Early bird tooling volunteer + 1 extra black case.you should double check on that case number brother. I paid for two early bird toolings to get any number from 5 and up. I picked all black f62 #13...
Order breakdown is:
$517.38 (board, volunteer, shipping) + $100.00 (extra Black case), for $617.38 Total.
If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me. I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I asked the IBM Archives and the guy there Max who is cool referred me to a copy of the IBM SiteLine June 1982 magazine. It discusses how the Keyboard F Mechanisn Manufacturing is doing more with less versus previous keyboards, Specifically the IBM Model B keyboard mechanism and the Model E keyboard mechanism.
It would appear that Model F and Model M are sequential models of keyboard mechanism.
The article mentions that Model B keyboards have an absurd 9 moving parts, where Model F only has 3. I assume the cap, spring and flipper.
So it is actually pretty likely that "M" doesn't reference Membrane at all.
https://imgur.com/a/D9CN4lX
I just bought an F77 to go with my F62 :DWe are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Really tempted to pick up a 62 to accompany my 77... must... resist.
I mean, the thing is... we really don't know what the keyboard feels like. I'm sure it'll be fantastic, but that's a lot of cash to throw down for a second one :)
We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered!
Unless they will start shopping tomorrow I'm going to have to change my address... Just posting so I don't forget to on you when I get home.
Oh man.1 They're already full N-key rollover
Make a model with a standard "IBM Enhanced Keyboard" fullsize layout in black with doubleshot keys and backlighting, and I almost don't care what it costs. I'll be lining up around the block Apple store style.
Other ideas:
- Full NKRO reworking of circuitry
- MX-style Keycap stems?
This would be the goddamned holy grail for me.
Oh man.The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
Make a model with a standard "IBM Enhanced Keyboard" fullsize layout in black with doubleshot keys and backlighting, and I almost don't care what it costs. I'll be lining up around the block Apple store style.
Other ideas:
- Full NKRO reworking of circuitry
- MX-style Keycap stems?
This would be the goddamned holy grail for me.
2 You're asking for too much, and it won't garner the support needed to make it even remotely affordable.
The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
2 You're asking for too much, and it won't garner the support needed to make it even remotely affordable.
I assumed as much, but one can always dream. I can't be the only person who would be interested in a modern featured buckling spring.The model F due to its capacitive nature is naturally NKRO, unlike regular cherry switches that require diodes to complete the same feat.
I did not know that. I incorrectly assumed it behaved the same as the Model M, just with different key feel. Thanks for setting me straight.
I mean, he has made tooling and everything. I'm guessing it's not just going to be thrown away after a single group buy run :p
Update from the factory: the factory has made good progress on the assembly preparation.
They are fully assembling 1 of each keyboard (the 4 keyboard variations compact F62, classic F62, compact F77, classic F77) as a test, along with sending me the spring samples from the newly built attacher machines.
The other good news is that the factory is designing and adapting machines to do most of the assembly work! We are expecting pick and place for the inner foam, barrels to the top inner assembly, flippers/springs, etc. This should rapidly speed up assembly time compared to what would have been assembly by hand.
I have asked for some videos of the semi-automated assembly process in action but here are some prototype shots of one of the assembly machines (not sure which process step).
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I’ve never owned a model F. Is the bottom assembly just pressure fitted? Only familiar with model m rivet system.yup - exactly as shown in vid
I can front print F1-F12 only on the number row keys of any of the offered layouts (US, UK, Spanish, French, German, Nordic, etc.) in any available color (pearl/pebble/blue/dark gray). Sorry I do not offer APL or other custom legends or custom front printing.
Major Project Milestone - Full Assembly Stage Begins!Congratulations!
After evaluating the latest samples, today I approved full assembly of the Brand New Model F Keyboards! It took a lot more time than expected (!) but I think the current quality of the keyboards has made it well worth ironing out the QC issues.
The plan is for the factory to assemble as many keyboards as possible and ship them at the end of April, with additional batches every month or so. This way, orders can start going out as soon as June.
On the dye sublimation front, I am waiting on some additional replacement parts for the setup before I can continue with the dye sublimation testing. Two more parts require a custom-built solution different from my current setup. Both parts will be ordered in the US to save time. Should be a few more weeks until they are finished and in hand.
Pete, the plan is to consolidate all orders from one person and ship them together, treated as if all orders were made on the date of your earliest order. So if you order a second keyboard this month and one last year, both keyboards will be in the 2018 queue.
Pete, the plan is to consolidate all orders from one person and ship them together, treated as if all orders were made on the date of your earliest order. So if you order a second keyboard this month and one last year, both keyboards will be in the 2018 queue.
HSD 10cpi :)Seconded
Here is an update on the languages/layouts requested for the 1,595 keyboards ordered so far (5 away from 1,600!). Some of the less common sets will be provided by Unicomp most likely.
If you'd like to switch your layout please let me know over email/PM.
If you'd like to review the expected specifics of your key set please see this page on Unicomp's web site: https://support.pckeyboard.com/knowledgebase.php?category=2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout) 1174
Black unprinted keys 132
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends) 113
Use your own keys 43
Custom/TBD 8
International Layouts:
UK 45
Swedish-Finnish 26
German 17
Norwegian 10
French 6
Swiss German 3
Latin American Spanish 3
JIS (Unicomp) 2
Danish 2
APL Keys (Unicomp) 2
Spanish 1
Turkish-Q 1
Hebrew English 1
Russian 1
Korean 1
Swiss 1
Dutch 1
Brazilian ABNT 1
Arabic 1
Grand Total 1595
It's still laughably smallHere is an update on the languages/layouts requested for the 1,595 keyboards ordered so far (5 away from 1,600!). Some of the less common sets will be provided by Unicomp most likely.
If you'd like to switch your layout please let me know over email/PM.
If you'd like to review the expected specifics of your key set please see this page on Unicomp's web site: https://support.pckeyboard.com/knowledgebase.php?category=2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)1174
Black unprinted keys132
Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends)113
Use your own keys43
Custom/TBD8
International Layouts:
UK45
Swedish-Finnish26
German17
Norwegian10
French6
Swiss German3
Latin American Spanish3
JIS (Unicomp)2
Danish2
APL Keys (Unicomp)2
Spanish1
Turkish-Q1
Hebrew English1
Russian1
Korean1
Swiss1
Dutch1
Brazilian ABNT1
Arabic1
Grand Total1595
for anyone keeping count, that's about 5% non-ANSI (my count is 123ish/1595, i'm not so sharp at 4 AM), which is what everyone says the market share is
ISO loses again
EDIT: someone with better math skills than me has told me that it's closer to 8% which is actually slightly higher so my ****post isn't as good now
The factory expects to complete all the early bird keyboards by the end of May - great news!
The factory expects to complete all the early bird keyboards by the end of May - great news!
itshappening.gif
just in time for keycon
Do not forget about the month in the shipping container from China!
A little nicer presentation than the previous pic with new Scroll, Num Lock and Alt Gr (thanks matt3o!) icons.
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Do not forget about the month in the shipping container from China!
The boards will be sent in priority of when they were ordered, with the low serial orders sent out first. Also I still need to do the final testing and dye sublimation.
Is there a way to make these keyboards quieter? Any quiet/ soft touch evolution?
Is there a way to make these keyboards quieter? Any quiet/ soft touch evolution?
Mass assembly continues at the factory. This photo of in progress F62 inner assemblies is from a week ago (the factories had a holiday break this first week of May).
We are still aiming for completion of all keyboards by the end of this month.
As noted earlier the factory caught a production error in the curve radius of the bottom inner assemblies and has been correcting all those parts before those parts can be assembled. Because of this error it was not practical to ship the first 500 keyboards first so now the expectation is that all the keyboards can ship soon after the end of this month.
As noted earlier I have ordered extras as part of the early bird round so you can still order a keyboard and have it ship as part of the early bird round!
Meanwhile the factory is assembling all the other parts. So far the spring assembly and inner assembly closing is being done by custom built machines and the key, barrel, and spring installation is being done manually (they noted that the pick and place machine design for these custom components would exceed the cost of labor).
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Time sure does fly by! :))
I'm so excited to see the final products start rolling out, though!
Here are some more photos of mass assembly at the factory. As noted earlier, mass assembly was slowed due to the bottom inner assembly parts needing to be re-curved, and then the stamping tool to re-curve these parts broke (has since been repaired). As requested they are storing the assembled flippers/springs in open air (not in sealed bags) to help maximize the quality of the Model F sound (exposure to moving air/humidity). Also pictured is a production styrofoam for shipping the classic case keyboards (the ultra compact variations will get another type of foam packaging).Love these progress reports and the excitement is so real.
euphxenos - just individual keycaps for now. I have to get a few more aspects of the sublimation right before I focus on pin registration to get an entire key set accurately aligned and produced. No new updates yet on the dye sublimation.
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Yeah, I hope someone is archiving these reports (especially the photos!). It'll make an excellent story when this is all over.
Yes this is correct. I am saving the photos and hope they will be part of the book.
I totally would have asked a LONG time ago if an APL keyset would have been possible :p
Final artwork for all of the extra key sets with a few minor additions and changes.
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As of now, the factory has completed assembling 700 keyboards and can assemble about 50 keyboards in one day. They are continuing to work on ramping up the daily capability to speed up the remaining assembly. We are now looking at completion of mass assembly in July!Super work Ellipse. This is one hell of a project.
Regarding the dye sub, yes I will be doing all the dye sub. Most of the dye sub will be done while I am doing the final testing of the keyboards so as not to hold things up (and as much as possible before the shipment arrives). Still, it will take months to examine and mail out each order one at a time.
would it be possible to order them by sets? also, the ergodox set... is that a if someone ever makes a buckling spring ergodox?
Is it still possible to place a new order, or no?
Still time to order accessories and keyboards!
Production of the double-walled boxes has finished this week! Below are some photos of the boxes.
Unfortunately they made a mistake on the artwork color (I specified that shade of blue from the rendered artwork posted a while back but they did the artwork in black). We are moving forward with these boxes to avoid any further delays, and I have requested the blue color for the artwork of the final round boxes.
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Some cool lookin boxes. I’m glad I chose blanks in the interest of time.
Correct - no prioritization for blank keyboards.
The boxes have arrived!
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If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
‾\_(ツ)_/‾
Nobody knows, man. We get em when we get em. ¯\_( ͠° ͟ʖ °͠ )_/¯If I were to place an order on an F77, how long will it take until I receive it?
‾\_(ツ)_/‾
Are you shrugging to tell me I might not get it until 2022?
If I were to order now, how long would it be until it was ready to ship for me?
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Does this website still take orders? This post was initially posted back in 2016.
Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
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Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
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This is really exciting news!!
Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Ya, it didn’t sound like this was close to being worked out.
*awakens from cryosleep*Now the long wait for dyesubbing to be done
...Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
Nice.
*returns to cryosleep*
Ya, it didn’t sound like this was close to being worked out.
Yes that is correct bun. Please feel free to email me for address updates and signature requirement.
F62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I just checked my order from February 29, 2016...QuoteF62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I don't have the patients to read this entire thread again.
Using the current webstore, I can't get this combination to show up in the cart.
Someone please tell me that with all the delays and re-tooling that I will get a complete set of keys?! :blank:
I just checked my order from February 29, 2016...QuoteF62 Model F Keyboard - "Kishsaver"
Keys: Black unprinted keys (right shift key not included)
Layout/Flipper Placement: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Color: Black
DT/GH/Reddit username: GH: nathanrosspowell
I don't have the patients to read this entire thread again.
Using the current webstore, I can't get this combination to show up in the cart.
Someone please tell me that with all the delays and re-tooling that I will get a complete set of keys?! :blank:
*patienceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/3KWyrqX.png)
just pm ellipse and let him know you'll need the black blank right shift
Yes confirmed nathanrosspowell that you get the full size right shift key in black. Initially we were using Unicomp keys and they had run out of black right shift keys.
Keys from brand new molds completed production last year so everyone gets a full set of keys if their keyboard is configured with installed keys (like yours is).
Pallets are packed and ready to go! They should arrive in early November.:eek: amazing
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The shipping container is packed to the edge! Below are photos showing the progress of loading the first two pallets and then the final pallets.
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soon ill be able to use my BS artisan, which ive kept for 3 something years. :D
soon ill be able to use my BS artisan, which ive kept for 3 something years. :D
same :-X
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The container ship has arrived in the port! I am told it will take another 1-2 weeks for remaining steps for delivery to me.
I hope to post photos throughout the coming weeks/months and plan on taking a photo of each unique configuration to upload to the web site in the future.
...
darkcruix I would say unfortunately not likely. My goal is to get as many keyboards out as quickly as possible, as long as each one has been thoroughly tested and passes my QC.
...
Again my apologies to all who have been waiting all this time - we are near the finish line but are still a few months away from everyone's order being delivered.
Can anyone guess the significance of the booklet product number in the bottom right corner of the front page?I'm guessing something like the original release date of the model F? August 1981? If I'm right, do I get a prize?
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There seems to be some back and forth over on the Deskthority thread regarding sending out the non-dye sublimated orders while waiting for the dye sub setup - please let me know your thoughts if you have a low serial order.
Yes that's right d00de! The launch month and year of the original IBM PC which had a Model F keyboard.
Yes architones over 1900 keyboards have been ordered so far!
Yes atectatifern, though some may have ended up in the junk folder - I see you replied 1/12/17 to the email I sent you for your Feb 2016 order - I re-sent the email to you just nowHey, thanks so much, just got it; I thought there was a mailing that had gone out recently and wanted to make sure I was still known to the system. Appreciate your help and hard work bringing these to fruition!
If shipping the orders that are ready to go doesn’t delay the “priority” orders then it would make sense to start.
The idea that someone would want Ellipse to sit on his hands while waiting for the dyesub setup so they can get their boards first is nonsensical. I do think it’s important they get priority once theirs can be shipped.
Side question, I got two emails asking to confirm shipping address. The first asked to reply if the provided address (1) wasn’t correct. The second gave me two options and said to ignore the shipping section on the first email. If I replied to the first email with the correct address already am I good?
There seems to be some back and forth over on the Deskthority thread regarding sending out the non-dye sublimated orders while waiting for the dye sub setup - please let me know your thoughts if you have a low serial order.
Hey Ellipse, I responded to you second email just making sure if you got it.
I was wondering if you could PM me on where I am in line for my order? I remember I was apart of the early bird round, but not sure if i'm apart of the first or second batch of boards.
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Correct. As a note, more than half the keyboards were delivered, while the remaining keyboards will be delivered early next year. I have ordered extras so you can still order this month and be a part of the early bird round.
That's a nice lens! What's the model?
it's here and it's everything I've dreamed it would be!!! PRAISE Ellipse!!!
it's here and it's everything I've dreamed it would be!!! PRAISE Ellipse!!!
Ignore my piss poor lighting and dirty office ;DShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Ik6Vees.jpg)
euphxenos the time consuming parts over the past month involve preparations to ship - determining which keyboards shipped to me, which box has which keyboard in it (factory will be improving how they do this for the second shipment of the early bird round), which orders can ship out (based on available inventory and the ability to fulfill someone's entire order), assigning serial numbers and determining shipping order, confirming 2,000 mailing addresses (had to send it twice because of mail delivery issues on my server - many of first emails ended up in people's junk folders), updating hundreds of order change requests and additions (making sure the additions are combined with the first orders and go to the right person when their name, address, or email are different). Also perfecting the technical aspects of order fulfillment - getting thermal labels and dot matrix packing slips to print correctly, solving technical issues with UPS, etc.
Despite detailed assembly guidelines and testing guidelines it appears that the factory did not do enough thorough testing of assembled keyboards, so I am making sure that the second batch of the first round has better QC. This has resulted in extra needed QC time for each one. Some keys have mis-assembled springs and space bars that do not work well out of the box.
The quality control process involves more than 30 steps per keyboard. 13 have shipped so far. It takes at least an hour for each one as many of the QC corrections are being encountered for the first time and I am programming each of the standard layouts. Should take less time when I know exactly how to fix each issue. This is part time for me.
Still working on the dye sub. It has taken much longer for both QC and dye sub. Today I was able to fix the final part of the dye sub control system and it appears to be working now - I will be able to continue the dye sub testing with actual keys now. One of the DC power supplies had to be swapped from a medical grade switching power supply to a linear/constant/regulated power supply.
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Thanks for the kind words.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Again for everyone I will reiterate that each keyboard will only go out after my QC process and the keyboards will take as long as they need to be done the right way. My current expectation is about six months more for all prior orders.
I can't speak for others but I really appreciate this.
Personally, i'm a big fan of buying (and waiting for) quality, so i'm more than happy to wait to make sure it's done right.
My order number is #5520 and knowing that ellipse is doing QA for each and every one of these 5000+ individual orders is something really special in this age of mass produced disposable crap.
I'm happy to wait as long as is necessary.
Keep being awesome Ellipse, I appreciate your dedication to doing this right :thumb:
I out that cuz I read bun's post lolMoreSpeaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Are there actually 5000+ orders? Because I think there are only a total of 1900 keyboards and my order #4500 was from 2017.
Speaking of Notch.. His secret shows during GDC were super cool. But 5000+ orders. That's a lot. Thank you for taking the time to QC everything properly and for all the work you've put into this project. I'm so excited to receive mine! I feel like a kid on his way to Disneyland.Thanks for the kind words.Haha nice! He knows what's up.
Today's update - Notch's keyboard is shipping! He ordered serial 1 of the Classic Case F77. Of course Notch's personal information was erased from the photo of his invoice.
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Are there actually 5000+ orders? Because I think there are only a total of 1900 keyboards and my order #4500 was from 2017.
This is one of my favorite retro keyboard aesthetically.
I'm on my third 3D printed 60% case design based on the same aesthetics.
There's something appealing about the scooped front and partial rounded bezel - even if you aren't after buckling spring switches.
Nice to see them back again, even on eBay it's rare to find one for sale.
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I saw 4-5k orders mentioned a bit back in the thread (mid December maybe), but got an order number well over 10k. Has this blown up that much in 2-3 weeks?
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Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Based on the current variations shipped in the first shipment last year, black keys will no longer be able to ship early (most of them are in the second batch arriving in a couple months). There are many pearl/pebble unprinted sets for most variations in the first shipment (happy to switch you to the standard colors key set if needed).
Typing sounds
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against. I think this is the first time in my life I half wish I lived in New York. I think the project would be a lot more popular than it is if economies of scale could kick in and the price could come down, or there were a budget option in something heretical, like a plastic case and cheap caps. I hear/read a lot of, "I would love one of those, but ...".I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.
I show everyone who may even remotely be interested in mechanical keyboards my Fs, and let them try their switches. That in and of itself is half of the battle though. Most people just don't care about mechanical keyboards, and if they do, they just want some linear gaming switch. Kids do seem more receptive though. I work in a school and show our "Tech Force" kids my old boards from time to time. Even amongst them, they're not always a smash hit.
Of the ones that do try the boards, and do end up cultivating an interest in mechanical switches, it does mostly seem to come down to preference between capacitive buckling spring and blue alps though, at least.
I mean, this kinda IS the economy of scale price. These are only about half the price of the original models, and those had IBM backing them.
I could probably listen to the switches, I have some model Fs to compare against.
Well, I got mine in the mail last night! I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well. I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters. I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?). Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated. Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others. Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic. I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp. Easily my new favorite keyboard.
edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself? Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
Would the switch sound have remained constant over time with the original model Fs, assuming they were well maintained?
I have on old Bigfoot (with the weird connector so I don’t know if it works) and some keys sound quite different to others which I assumed was due to degradation of internal components. It will be interesting to compare to a new model F when mine arrives.
Well, I got mine in the mail last night! I replaced most of the keycaps with the ones off of my Unicomp board and it seems to work pretty well. I am having slight issues with the 'F' key - it came shipped disconnected from the spring, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it spams letters. I see from posts above that there are tweaks that can be done, and I installed all of my keys while keeping the keyboard horizontal (apparently that is wrong?). Any advice on how to fix my 'F' key is appreciated. Sorry for the newbish reply, but im new to retro boards and just assumed this was plug and play just like all the others. Otherwise this keyboard feels fantastic. I already like the way it feels much more than my Unicomp. Easily my new favorite keyboard.
edit: the 'f' key has not once exhibited the same issue, maybe it just need a bunch of presses to properly reseat itself? Loving this keyboard, thanks so much for offering us this opportunity to get one!
I took my F XT apart last night because Hasu has me testing some of his firmware and I thought the board might have a grounding issue. Just taking the plate assembly out of the case and putting it back in screwed up some of the keys. If any keys don't feel/sound like the others, take them off, flip the board veritcally, and reseat them that way. I did notice that even if that didn't initially fix the problem, sometimes they would finish sorting themselves out after a few keypresses. Ellipse has a video that demonstrates their proper installation on his Youtube channel for the new Model Fs.
Mine arrived early last week and I honestly love it. It's been a long wait, and my passion for mechanical keyboards calmed down a bit during that time, but man this thing is sick. This is my first time using buckling springs and the tactile feel and weight is just perfect. I really enjoyed using my HHKB and I'm excited to have another keyboard in a similar format (for some reason I feel like the function key is slightly lower and out of the way compared to the HHKB, but when I look at them side by side they are nearly identical, so my muscle memory must just be wonky). Thanks for all of your hard work on this, Ellipse!
*makes repetitive snake tongue movement and 'liddle' soundI'm amused visualizing this action. Maybe it's a cultural thing...
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****
My board is with customs (now Boarder Force because customs wasn't forceful enough). Come on and clear you *****
Australian customs? Good luck. For something like this I’m worried they’ll hold up shipment due to some reason that would require additional import clearance charges after the GST changes last year.
The latest batch of new variation keyboards:
Here's an imgur album of all the variations so far - it will be updated with new variations as they are photographed:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
Both blue variants (plus the classic case limited editions True Red and Silver Gray) are still available to order but I only have a few left.
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Holy cow. I think I know what I want for my graduation gift.
My fn key seems to be causing the "spamming" problem. Whatever key I pressed along with the fn will be spammed until I press fn again or sometimes it just stops by itself.
Is this fixable? I'm on Mac OS Catalina but I also have access to Windows PC.
Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.
I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.
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Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
I went through the steps above at least 10 times and it is still happening. Tried going down to 100v and chaos happened lol. Internet Explorer opened up by itself and it opened almost infinite tabs.
But right now, I'm typing this with my F62. The thing that fixed it, after that chaos happened and my keymap seems to be reset, is I flashed the keymap that Ellipse provided in the download link. It's all good now :)
Was Internet Explorer trying to murder your computer due to your neglect of it? I'm going to go with that, because it amuses me.
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.
Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.
Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
lol yeah probably. I saw that Emergency button and afraid to press it. I thought it's meant for something else.
Oh well now I'm all set. Put my SSK keycaps in and I'm already back to my 110 wpm on this board.
Let's just say it's worth the 4 years wait :)
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
My keyboard has arrived safely. I have noticed that certain keys sometimes register multiple keystrokes from a single keypress. Any idea what causes and how to fix this?
Sorry to hear you have issues with the keyboard.
What I have had in the past was a warming-up phase, where it required the keyboard to literally "warm up". Honestly, only when it had the full ambient temperature it worked properly.
Next, it seems you have some weird "ghosting" going on. I'd re-seat some of the keys, like the space and Y etc.
I also think Ellipse is using the patched firmware with the better debounce filter. This did a lot for me! I guess you have not overwritten the existing firmware. The one that can be downloaded is un-patched.
Set the voltage as low as you can and then increase it slowly. A good starting point is 100. I also assume Ellipse is ignoring potential free spots in the columns.
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Sorry h to hear about the xwhatsit controller issues. Fortunately these longstanding issues were addressed a few years back with a firmware update, but I did not set the correct settings for some of the first new boards that went out.
The extra typed characters is a result of the debounce filter as well as the voltage threshold.
Agreed that the keyboard needs to reach room temperature and should be unplugged and plugged back in after warming up.
First I would flash the alternative debounce filter threshold 6 (uploaded in the below link). In some of the keyboards I flashed threshold 11 which turned out to be not enough to prevent the extra characters.
Then I would set the voltage threshold to 126 for any F62 and 122 for any F77. Click store to EEPROM (auto-voltage does not work for some reason). Then set column skips 9 to 15 for F62 and 11 to 15 for the F77. Click store to EEPROM.
Link to layout files and updated firmware: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/zijzczR.jpg)
Got mine a few weeks back and been enjoying it since. Truly amazing job Ellipse, you put a lot of work into this thing and it really shows. Just slapped on some Wheelwriter III caps which makes it look even better, can't wait to see how it'll look with the actual printed keys.
Since I was one of the early receivers of the Model F Keyboard, I thought I'd add my two cents; it might help others in waiting, and a couple pages ago Ellipse had asked others who had received their keyboards for input, so here we go:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/iyhdNPU.jpg)
My keyboard was shipped on Jan 26. within the U.S. to a relatives address, I didn't want international shipping to my home in Europe to avoid customs, tax and international shipping charges, all of which usually are quite a lot to us folks outside the U.S, and planned to pick it up whenever I had the chance to travel to the states. Which turned out to be sooner than I thought, I received and opened the box a few days ago.
My keyboard arrived safe and sound, only the spacebar was dislodged. I ran through a key test looking for buzzing springs or non responsive keys, I had 5 keys that had an "after buzz" and one key that had " a non registering sound". I removed them, held the keyboard vertical spacebar side up, teased and tugged the springs then coaxed them a couple times down into the barrel, and reinserted the caps. This fixed the buzzing in all the caps but one, and fixed the non registering sound to a "registering ping" in the other. The one cap that wasn't fixed was a stubborn fellow, and took me I think 4-5 trys till it got rid of the buzz. (Just follow the video guideline that Ellipse made) - this was a fairly easy process.
I connected the keyboard straight to my computer, and everything works right out of the box. I did a quick type test at around 90wpm, and everything went beautifully, all keys register and there was no spamming. For my selected option, the HHKB style split right shift Fn key, and the layering for the numpad on the right were already done, to my pleasant surprise, I thought I would have to map each key out in xwhatsit when I received it.
(one thing I would suggest for Ellipse is, for future reference: when selecting the keyboard configuration on the order page, to have
a visual representation of the layout. I spend quite some time trying to make sure what I was choosing was the correct one for me- you responded quickly and were very helpful via email about this, it would just be easier on you and the person ordering to have such layouts visually available).
The Case: The finish is quite well done, I didn't really notice the mold line that a few people were mentioning, my only criticism in this would be the color. I was expecting that classic off-white IBM color, and in reality it has more of a beige tone added into that mix. The photos do not reflect the color, in the photos, it looks as the color that I was expecting. It's not a big deal by the way, at least for me- it has that "NES box left out in the sun over two decades color tint" feel. Those who know what that is will get it. By the way this case is a behemoth. Lifting it to take out and reinsert the keycaps might have thrown off my shoulder. But the finish quality and texture is great, like it should be.
The Typing: Wonderful buckling spring action. Nothing more needed to say. It's been a while since I've typed on one, and the feel of it is very close to the originals in which I remember. It is a bit more crisp and precise than the Model M's that I'm used to, but those have decades of wear and tear on them, so in time these will mush up a bit too. My only complaint, like a couple others is the space bar. That one kinda surprised me. It feels very "hollow". The satisfying thunk sound, or feel isn't present. I haven't messed around with the wire (bending it and the like) yet, and I'm sure someone much more intuitive than I will find a mod that will improve the feel of it within the coming months, so I'll be on the lookout. Perhaps gluing a thin strip of metal underneath the space bar might add to its key feel?
All in all, this is an absolutely wonderful keyboard. And a huge undertaking for one man. I read someone criticize that the board wasn't 100% perfect upon arrival, and that you shouldn't need to fix buzzing springs, etc. These keyboards need to be tuned. Like a piano. Even with Ellipse's individual QC, things shift around during shipping, etc.. People who pay this kind of money for an enthusiast keyboard and spend countless more on mech keyboards, and caps, and switches etc, are also of the variety who like to tinker. Or at least have learned to do so. I went into this buy with the possibility that it might actually not go through, that's always a risk, and recreating a keyboard like this down to so much of its detail and feel is a very very big undertaking, and accomplishing it on such a level is a really commendable task. It was worth the wait. So, congrats Ellipse, bravo.
This is now my daily driver, and isn't she a beauty and a joy forever.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Dh4kEdp.jpg)
I posted my review on Deskthority, and just copy pasted it below, didn't want to rewrite it, thought it might also help others waiting for their keyboards ;D
Pete why is your old Model F not working? Do the bigfoot keyboards work with Soarer's converter: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9418&start=
What happens after today? Price hike or limited availability?
If you're referring to the "1/31/20 please have your orders in by then!" text on the modelfkeyboards.com web site, there's been text to that effect on there for years. Every month that date moves out by one month.
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
Thanks for letting me know - the project web site is back up now.
Regarding the deadline, I have discussed in the past the reason for the deadline and why it has been delayed. I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month. I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April. Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected.
So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard! I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly five years and it is good to know that people appreciate the effort put into the project to have a Brand New Model F Keyboard.This is all fascinating. At some point can you post a video to show the sublimation process?
Dye sublimation update:
I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.
Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.
As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.
I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.
Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.
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Everyone please do share your new Model F photos and experience here once you receive your keyboard! I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F. This project has taken nearly (...)
Thanks for the detailed review Maledicted and for the photos, especially comparing the Zenith case.Thank you for bringing these beauties back to life Ellipse. It was certainly worth the effort.
Here are some notes:
Regarding re-seating springs: just a note for those who come across the review that in nearly all cases you do not need to take apart the keyboard to fix keys that do not click or spend a few minutes pressing a troublesome key - I have posted some videos on this thread as well as on the web site blog detailing a quick spring adjustment and key re-seating guide that requires less than one minute per key to do. Very important to reattach the key as shown in these videos, with the keyboard positioned as shown in the videos (vertically, with the space bar row up). The goal is to have the spring touch the 12 o'clock position of the barrel when the keyboard is positioned that way. If the spring end is not positioned at 12 o'clock (per the video) and the spring does not touch the barrel, buckling error is more likely to occur.
Regarding squeaky space bars - that is nearly always the case of adjusting/slightly stretching or replacing the spring rather than due to the space bar stabilizer wire. This is something I test on all keyboards as part of QC but I hope to improve on this. On a similar note, especially with rattling space bar wires as well as to prevent the space bar from getting stuck on the end of the metal tab, I recommend pressing down on the metal tabs if you re-seat the space bar (after confirming no squeak and proper buckling when pressing the space bar). I do this as needed during QC. With the final production round, the metal tabs will be adjusted a bit to minimize the need to get them out of the way manually.
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...
Added friction does make sense, but you would think that the springs would weaken with age, which would counteract that, if anything...
Not necessarily, many alloys work harden, becoming more brittle (relatively speaking.) This would make for a stiffer spring.
Dye sub testing update:
I think we are finally on par with a 50th to 90th percentile IBM XT for dye sublimation quality! This was the original goal of the new dye sublimation.
Color and bleed/sharpness are close to my reference IBM XT keyboard (original key from that keyboard is on the left; the right side key is the latest test). Looks great under the stereo microscope too. (As a reminder please disregard the legend positioning. The full sublimation transfer sheets have pin registration with the jig for proper placement)
Two more variations going out:
The first variation below is the first assembled keyboard photographed with the custom Silver Gray case color. I paid for some extras of this color beyond what was ordered by everyone so I have about 10 extra cases in stock. This custom color will not be made in the final round so this is your only chance to order it. The color is difficult to photograph but the Pantone Silver Gray color is what I would describe as a gray color with a small amount of blue.
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For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.
I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.
Most people are nice, a small percentage aren't. It's always going to be that way (unless the end of the world happens and the nice people get fed up).For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible.
I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.
Oooft.
That hurt to read.
I'd try not to worry about it Ellipse, some people are just *******s, you've put a lot of work into something that has and will make a lot of people happy, try not to let the odd bad apple spoil what you've achieved :)
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Nice photo KetchyKech!
Changing cases of the same type (i.e. classic to classic case or compact to compact case) is not too tough but you do need to remove the keys before removing the bottom inner assembly to switch between case types. Also be sure to use both screws when re-attaching the controller to the other bottom inner assembly as it's required for grounding (otherwise the capacitive sensing won't be accurate). There should be some tape covering the bottom of the controller where the ribbon cable is soldered, so the ends do not touch the metal case. The ribbon cable ends may break through the tape and end up touching the bottom of the compact keyboard metal case if the keyboard was not correctly reassembled.
I have posted some instructional videos on how to open up the keyboard and put it back together, and the videos apply to inner assemblies from both types of cases (instructions are the same).
For troubleshooting keys that do not register in the xwhatsit software GUI, I recommend testing the PCB attached to the bottom inner assembly with the two screws but not installed with the barrels and flippers (a video posted on the web site blog shows how to do this testing).
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!
Looking good!
What did go wrong? Changing the case should be nothing more than loosing up the outside screws? No need take off the caps, and therefore mess anything up. I have had my keyboards apart a few times, even the inner plates to change the layout. The keyfeel is still superb.
That beeing said, I had the F77 delivered without caps, and the F62 with caps installed. And Joe have done a fantastic job tuning the F62 board to perfection. I have had at it on the F77, and tuning the sound of the springs to his level sure takes some time - but well worth it.
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Looks great. I have had keys start acting up, especially on the bottom row, when pulling the whole plate sandwich out of a case before, with F ATs, my F XT, and my F77. I think it only happens when I do quite a bit of manhandling. You'll get the hang of reseating/tweaking them quickly.
I just took my F77 home this past weekend to resolve the few keys that were buzzing, and lubed the spacebar stabilizer, since I have always had dielectric grease just lying around anyway.
I know you've probably seen it before, but the emphasis on reseating the keys with all of the legends upside-down (with the board resting squarely on the side from which the cable comes out) is very important. If that doesn't work after a few tries with your problem keys, I found that using a needlenose pliers to reach at least halfway down the barrel, grabbing the spring, and pressing it as straight down onto the little nub it is attached to on the flapper (about as low as you can go without kinking the spring) usually solves the problem for me, otherwise Ellipse has also mentioned removing the spring, and reversing it. I have been able to do this entirely with needlenose pliers as well, there's at least one awesome recent guide involving plastic tube and bamboo skewers.
Are the keys that aren't registering also ones that sound/feel weird? I would worry about tackling those with physical means first. I have had plenty of capacitive buckling spring flappers refuse to register until the cap/spring orientation was just right.
Just got my F77 today. This is coolest thing I've gotten in quite some time.
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit. :)
Cool! Didn't know the sandwitch had different backplates on the classic and the ultra compact - but I guess that makes sense, for it to actually fit. :)
Am I missing something, or did somebody say that? I can't find it stated in recent posts.
I know one thing I'm really tempted to do is to buy a spare zinc case ... or 10, and figure out how to have Cherry or Alps plates made for them for some hand wiring.
Thanks for posting your photos profanum429 and glad you were able to take care of the disassembly and reassembly perfectly.
How did you put the bottom and top inner assemblies back into place?
Sure TopreMoon but please also order 20 units of the store item $1 increments for this custom option.
Added a little speaker to my F77 hooked up to the xwhatsit controller. And with the help from an Arduino nano I have a tuneable buzzer going :)That is awesome!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/5VENpQc.jpg)
for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed
The original thread seems to be lost. But here's a referencefor those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed
I searched and cannot find this, but it sounds fascinating. Do you or anyone else have a link to the full story?
As for difficult customers, I usually come to a “reasonable” solution that is a big disadvantage to me but reduces the likelihood of me getting doxed by them in the future. It’s why I avoid selling anything and just buy buy buy.
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.
I switched out my f62 to a new modern case offered on the website and I do enjoy it -- However, the process of taking it apart has brought me a lot of grief- save yourself the hassle that I'm going through and do not disassemble your keyboard if you don't have to!
I have been following the guide & videos posted on ellipse's youtube channel and website, but the instructions are pretty dense and hard to follow :eek:
I think my keycaps need to be reseated as the feel isn't consistent between them and the sound is off -- I adjusted the voltage via the software and still no dice on getting all of the keys registered.
I will revisit this soon, but here is a photo of the carolina blue modern case for f62!Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/rtHy08y.jpg)
Hey I hope your f62 working properly now. I've found that voltage of 126 with column skips set to 9-15 (make sure to store to EPROM after adjusting each one). Also I had a backspace that wasn't registering properly, and I took the key off, wiggled the spring a bit, and then reinstalled the key (while looking at the layout in the ibm_capsence software to be assured it was registering). Finally, the easiest way I've found to assure good sounding keys is by just taking the key on and off (while giving it soft pressure and a good wiggle until it goes in), and if it doesn't sound great, it usually will after a few attempts. I did notice Ellipse recommends tilting the board vertically with the spacebar up for key installation however. I hope this helps.
I absolutely love my f62 and it's hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. I think it really helped that Ellipse sent that board out with the keys already installed and tested for quality, and made the adjustments fairly minimal. I did also order an f77 and since the printed keys are still not in yet, it just came with the springs only. So I installed a set of unicomp keys on the board, and the difference is honestly night and day. The keys Ellipse provides are just buttery smooth and fit the board like a glove. Also Ellipse has been absolutely incredible in terms of answering questions, providing solutions/advice, and always following up to ensure issues get resolved. They don't make customer service like that anymore! Cheers!
Nice post, and nice boards. How do the actuation points between the Unicomp caps and the new production F caps compare? My F77 with blank caps is still out in the ether somewhere, so I can't yet compare.
Hey there. So I just did a quick test to see. Note that the unicomp keys are on my F77 and the F62 has the new keys, as well as that I just tested the upper right keys for each board...As for the results, the new keys on the F62 actuated at 52 grams and the unicomp keys on the F77 actuated at 55 grams. I'm basing this off of the full key sinking in as well which I'm unsure if that's exactly what you were asking. The click of the spring which I suppose does denote actuation, occurred roughly 1-2 grams prior for both. Hope this helped!
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
These boards are meant to be modified however you like. With mine, I drilled out the hole for the USB cable and glued in a nice and beefy female GX12 aviator socket, and made a corresponding cable for it.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)
There's whatever you want. You can have a standard ISO alphanumeric cluster and whatever you want in the traditional nav cluster area to the right of that. Only the F62 would require resorting to layers for arrow keys. The F77 would only need layers if you wanted a number pad and nav cluster. If I needed to use layers for arrow keys, I wouldn't want one either.I'm talking about a full normal standardized layout. That means nav cluster and a numpad.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot.Well, there is no nav cluster and no arrow keys. I just want a normal standardized full size ISO 105 layout. :)
(Yes, i know there's layers and such.. but that's a really poor substitute imho.)
I appreciate all of your answers, don't get me wrong, but i'm really only talking about a standard full layout (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/IBM_Model_M_1391403_keyboard.jpg), nothing else.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did you ever think of making and selling a "Model MF"? What i mean by this is: Model F high quality internals/switches and maybe a full metal case and the modern layout of the full size (ISO 105) Model M? That combined with a USB-C Port and it would be perfect.
I think that the purpose of this project was to reproduce the F62 and F77 specifically, as the originals are exceedingly rare. I wish he had made a new production F107, but those are apparently common enough to not be on the radar.
Is there anything that you would need as far as layout/function that the F77 can't do? It can basically be configured exactly the same way as an M, with Windows keys to boot. The only difference is you choose how you want that separate cluster of keys on the right to be configured. Mine has TKL-style arrow keys, media controls, and delete, print screen, and escape. You could configure it like a standard TKL, or a number pad.
Ultimately, the lack of an F row is a serious hindrance for people who use heavily the F row (including in this the mess that is mixing the `~ and Esc keys); for them, 60% and 65% form factors are unusable (*) and 75% is the minimum (**). Getting these repros to cover the TKL and/or the 75% form factors would be an instant "shut up and take my money!" moment.
(*) No, "Just use Fn+5 to make F5!" ain't enough. A two-key chord isn't much of a problem, but Ctrl-F5 (Fn-Ctrl-5) becomes uncomfortable, and stuff like Ctrl-Alt-F9 outright unpleasant.
(**) Heck, this can already be seen in people who prefer the 77-key layout over the 62-key one because of the lack of independent arrow keys.
…
I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.
…
I have no need for the f keys myself (other than preboot menus?), and have an escape key on my F77. To each their own. A reproduction F107 is something I know I wanted.
To each his own, of course. As per me, I'd really like to see the F62/F77 repros to be extended to the TKL format (and forget the disappointment of the FSSK) and to the 75% or even 79% form factors (something that never existed in IBM's offerings).
A few people were asking about solenoids - a Deskthority user has added a solenoid to his Brand New Model F Classic Case Keyboard.Thanks for that info. Will look into it.
The challenge is to find a good solenoid and a solenoid driver board. GH/DT user Orihalcon was selling these but not sure if there are any left.
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=23707&p=462600&hilit=f62#p462600
I saw this one as a suggestion a while back - not sure if it is a good option: https://www.ebay.com/itm/0837L-06K-6V-0-15A-5mm-20g-First-Stroke-Push-Solenoid-Electromagnet-with-Base/271967978003
In the coming days I will be sending out many of the early requested keyboards - will reply to the recent requests once I have sent out most of the current requests.
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).
Both foam types are durable and long lasting - the difference is just in the density and authenticity of materials. Many keyboards have instances of the better IBM foam (non crumbly) such as the XT, one of my original F77 keyboards (refurbished by IBM in 1991), and probably other models. The 107 and 122's (and some XT's) seemed to favor the crumbly foam. Interestingly the side foam strips are the crumbly type on the better IBM foam.
Stumbled across some excitement about this new wireless bluetooth add-on for bluetooth keyboards lately. Wondering if this is of any use since apparently it can be a drop in replacement for a ProMicro which has been used on Model M/F boards before.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/gst1n6/ic_nicenano_the_super_thin_wireless_bluetooth/
Attached are the 0.9.2 xwhatsit firmware files for alternative debounce 6 and 11. These files include joc's alternative debounce updates from the 0.9.1 update and pandrew's recent work fixing the firmware layer bug. I have recompiled these firmware files to show a keyboard as having version 0.9.2 in the xwhatsit GUI program. Big thanks to DT forum member pandrew for fixing the firmware layer bug.Marking for future reference.
Also are some basic instructions that someone helped me put together on how to create a hex firmware file with all the patch files and how to run the capsense GUI on linux (with the usual disclaimers - instructions are for informational purposes only, should not be construed as technical advice or recommendations).
Yesterday I confirmed that the xwhatsit GUI utility still runs on the latest Windows, Mac, and Linux.
Yep they're hard to photograph. Here's another photo that someone posted on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f
They are a 60% dark gray color.
Nice photos!
When calibrating voltage thresholds in the xwhatsit, do people typically have to do this when moving the keyboard from one computer to the next, or when changing power supplies or connecting computers to different mains electricity? Curious if the keyboard is really stable once configured or if people are finding that the keyboard needs to be recalibrated when the environment changes.
The problem that I’m having now is that most keys register correctly, but every so often I get two spaces from the space bar with each press. Happens about one out of ten times.
Read back through the posts in this thread about debounce firmware settings. This is brought up enough that it almost makes me think that there should be a sticky thread dedicated to it here somewhere. Maybe there is, here or on Deskthority?
Please excuse my ignorance. I thought that EC keyswitches don't need debounce time, because actuation isn't caused my two mechanical parts touching each other. What causes the need for debounce?
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.
(Attachment Link)
I forgot to add earlier, but here's my new F77 up and running at work. Unfortunately I'm still struggling to get the current threshold and debounce dialed in perfectly. You can see in the picture a Schiit Wyrd that I'm using to try to eliminate the laptop's USB port as a potential source of noise problems.
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Respect for taking that thing to work. I bet it gets some fun reactions.
Does 0.9.2 incorporate the fixes from 0.9.1, too? I assume so but want to be sure.
Yes, you are correct. These are Unicomp keys on a new Model F keyboard. I'll wait and pass judgment once dye sub is complete ;)
Is it possible to manually torque the barrels in these new model Fs to change the rotation, or are they fixed to the plate at a fixed rotational angle?
Quick question just so I know what to expect — are we getting tracking numbers when keyboards ship?Yeah I got an email saying mine shipped with a tracking number.
Saw it mentioned on the website, but can’t quite tell from the conversations on here
Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've installed some Unicomp key sets on new Model F keyboards with no issues - was your Unicomp set made in the past 1-2 years?
DT user Twst has posted a great video testing out a newly installed solenoid in a Brand New F77!
Yes absolutely Sam. I have actually posted an album of all the various keyboard configurations that have been mailed out, including the compact case keyboards:
https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/aponqy/test_fit_some_new_keycaps_from_ellipse_on_my_f122/?st=k227fb64&sh=c79d131f
https://imgur.com/9Aq2KHj
https://imgur.com/dHui5kr
I don't have any photos of the sublimated keycaps in other colors just yet. Correct the Industrial SSK legends are only found in the Industrial SSK key set.
Backlog is still significant (have shipped more than 300 so far but have a ways to go) but there's an option to have your keyboard shipped within a month of your order date, ahead of the key sets (check out the recent blog entries for more details if interested).
Maybe it's time to:
A) Offer the buyer the option for signed delivery (noticed Ellipse's response, it should be more explicit during the checkout process that the package will not require signature).
B) Offer the buyer the option to insure the package.
C) Both
Honestly I thought my Model F was going to require a signature given the value of the package, but no, that was not the case. This is an unfortunate oversight that should be rectified for future orders, or at the very least allow people the option to upgrade their shipments to have those services. If they choose not to, then that's a different story. I feel for the person that had their Model F stolen. Good luck
I just placed my order for the Solenoid Driver and the Solenoid. For any noobies out there like me, that is all you will need if you're looking to use for your New Model F Keyboard.Will installation of the solenoid driver and solenoid require any soldering on the new model f controllers?
… I also compared a Beam Spring 3278 with the New Model F. This time I did use a proper Mic for the sound recording.
I hope you find it interesting and enjoy:
Below is the latest pivot table report update of items ordered and configurations chosen. A lot of controllers, solenoid drivers, and solenoids have been ordered in recent weeks!
Sales Ranking by Shipping Territory
52 Guam
Wow, I wonder if I'm the only person on Guam that bought this board!I’m glad to see I’m not the only Australian to order one.
Wow, I wonder if I'm the only person on Guam that bought this board!I’m glad to see I’m not the only Australian to order one.
I wanted to share a recent, thorough blog review of a new Model F F77 Keyboard with great photos:
http://ryan.abel.space/blog/model-f-keyboard-review
So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in. :PSo would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
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Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Rgr. I have wondered about that solenoid before and did not get any conclusive answer. I ended up scavenging one from another IBM model f (blue switch).So I did order a solenoid from Ellipse already, but I imagine I will get the driver earlier than the actual solenoid given I have an open order already out there. So if I did happen to get it early, I figured why not try out a cheap solenoid before the good one comes in.So would this be a decent solenoid to use while waiting for the New Model F solenoids (assuming I get the solenoid driver soon)?You could order the solenoid from Ellipse, too. Same page where you order the solenoid drivers.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
That solenoid will work fine, while not giving the greater tactile feedback of the larger one it will give a good solenoid click.
I actually tried it on my F62. It clamps right under the cable clip, with no further modifications needed.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/xAOEX7m.jpg)
Thanks for posting this. Please post a typing video of this--I'd like to hear the spacebar if possible.
Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.
First New Model F trackpoint mod!
Hypersphere posted a thorough review over on DT with nice photos and helpful advice.
I'd say that outside the original off-white/beige case color, red would probably be the one that I like most.
Here are some photos of recent new variations.
The blue gray / silver gray cases came out great and look even better in person than in these photos. This is a great color and I had extras made beyond what was ordered, in case anyone wanted to upgrade or order a keyboard or case in this color.
Also the Regular Gray Ultra Compact cases look great. The finish is excellent.
Printed key caps in the photos are Unicomp caps and SSK type key caps (as someone over on DT just mentioned is on their new Model F).
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Thanks for posting this. Please post a typing video of this--I'd like to hear the spacebar if possible.
Mechanically, I changed the sound of the spacebar to my liking. As shipped, the spacebar had some rattle and the bottoming-out sound was a bit harsh. I applied some synthetic silicone grease to the stabilizer clips, inserted self-adhesive foam-rubber strips to the inside of the spacebar, and applied Poron Thin-Stik ultra-thin self-adhesive foam to the top plate where the stabilizer wire hits when the spacebar is pressed down. Now the spacebar makes a satisfying "thunk" and does not rattle.
Ah, the red looks awesome! Debating really hard on whether I need a 'spare' case D:Thanks. Red and burgundy red have become my favorite colors for keyboard cases.
@macclack: Per your request, I have cobbled together a video with some typing sounds of my new F62 along with an IBM-XT for comparison.
As I mentioned previously, I prefer the sound and feel of the XT. However, I find the F62 more usable because of its smaller footprint and standard layout in the main typing area. On the other hand, a usability feature that I installed on my XT is a flush-mount USB connector, making it easier to swap keyboards on my desk setup. I may eventually do the same for my F62.
rgleas, upon actuation of a key, the solenoid bar goes inwards (inside the solenoid coil) and the metal clip on the solenoid cylindrical bar clicks against the solenoid itself. Upon release the solenoid has an o ring or damper ring so that there is not a second click upon return of the solenoid bar. The mod with the wood, I believe, is to have the solenoid make contact with the wood which contacts the case - all of this is on the "solenoid return" part. So with this mod, there would be a click upon actuation, and a potentially larger click upon return of the solenoid into its original position.
We passed the 400 keyboards milestone this week! 407 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far.
@TopreMoon: Comparing my modded F62 to my lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 is a classic case of comparing, say, basketballs to bananas. I enjoy both keyboards, but for different reasons. They each provide a distinctive typing experience, but the nature of the experience is quite different. I suppose the similarities include tactility and the satisfaction of using machines built from quality components. The obvious difference between the two boards is the sound -- they differ in loudness, pitch, and timbre.
@minnus: Even with the floss mod on all of the keys and the O-rings on the modifiers and spacebar, the F62 still has the sharp, crisp tactility accompanied by the staccato click of the Model-F switches. This is so at least on the alpha and number keys. The sound and feel of the modifiers and spacebar on the F62 is indeed softened to some degree by the O-rings.
The tactility of the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S feels less sharp than that of the F62, and the sound is much different from that of the F62. It is certainly much, much quieter. Moreover, the nature of the sound is quite different -- a muted "thock" compared to a sharp click.
I very much like both of these keyboards for different reasons. For the moment, the F62 has become my daily driver except for teleconferences, when I switch over to my HHKB.
@rgleas: Yes, I enjoy typing on the HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S. Before acquiring this latest update in the HHKB line, I used a HHKB Pro 2 that I lubed and silenced myself with my own silencing rings. I used that HHKB Pro 2 almost exclusively for about 5 years in my home office, and I have two others that I still use on two of my computers at work.
I don't use the HHKB merely because it is quiet -- I like the 60% form factor, layout, feel, appearance, and quality components as well. A great deal of thought went into the design of the HHKB. It was developed by Prof. Wada, a computer scientist at the University of Tokyo, after years of research. The first-generation was introduced in 1996 followed by the Pro in 2003, the Pro 2 in 2006, and the Pro Classic and Pro Hybrid in 2020.
In particular, I like the HHKB layout -- in fact, I quickly became addicted to it. My keyboard collection is extensive, but all the keyboards that I have in my rotation have been remapped to a layout as close as possible to that of the HHKB.
Before discovering the HHKB, I used Model M boards at home and work. When I rediscoved Model F keyboards, I liked the Model F switches so much, I thought it would be great if there were a 60% Model F keyboard in the HHKB layout. Then, along came Ellipse and his F62/F77 project. It was a no-brainer for me to order these for both my home and work offices.
My F62 has the split backspace and split right shift of the HHKB. It has two additional keys on the bottom row, but otherwise the F62 and HHKB boards have the same layout, so it is very easy to go back and forth between the two keyboards.
Update on my F62:
1. Floss mod. Finally got the stubborn "n" key to buckle by trimming the floss so that it was about 1 mm shorter than the spring.
2. Spurious keypresses. Flashed and remapped with QMK. The spurious keypresses seem to have disappeared.
3. O-ring mod. I found the same size of O-rings that have been found in some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness. They slip easily over the barrels in the new F62 or F77. I left them resting on the "nubs" on each of the barrels rather than stretching them to fit flat against the top of the barrel plate. I applied them only to the barrels of the modifers and the spacebar. I decided, at least for now, not to put O-rings on the alphanumeric keys. The result -- attenuation of the metallic bottoming-out sound.
Tnanks to the floss mod, the "ping" is gone, and the O-ring treatment has reduced the bottoming-out noise. A good thing about these mods is that they are easily and completely reversible if you do not like the effects.
It also appears that QMK might be a better and easier way than ibm-capsense to autocalibrate F62/77 boards and map the keys, although we all owe a debt of gratitude to Xwhatsit for his pioneering work on Model-F and Beam Spring controllers and firmware that made it possible for the rest of us to use these great keyboards with contemporary computers.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.
Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
Topre, Model F buckling spring, and mx black switches are so different, it is difficult to make direct comparisons between actuation forces. Shown below are some force-displacement curves for each of these switch types.@rgleas: Well, if you haven't guessed by now, I spend far too much on keyboards! Accordingly, I've ordered both the standard and "ultra-compact" varieties of the F62. I've also ordered a standard F77. The standard ones have arrived (I opted to get them early w/o keys installed) and the compact ones are somewhere in the pipeline. I am planning to install a panel-mount USB-C connector on my standard-case models; if this is successful, I will post the results.
@LightningXI: I think QMK for the new model F boards is still in beta. You would need to contact pandrew or tentator to request access, and use at your own risk. Regarding the floss mod, I just recalled what I did on my first keyboard restoration quite a few years ago with my IBM-XT. At that time, I searched the forums for tips on how to do it. Essentially, you get some Oral-B Superfloss and cut pieces from the fuzzy part of the floss that are the length of the switch springs or about 1 mm longer. You insert these pieces of floss into each of the springs and put the key back on while holding the keyboard 90 degrees to the benchtop with the keyboard resting on its back edge -- this position causes the springs to be centered in the barrels so that the spring will buckle properly when the key is snapped into place.
Very cool! Yeah I have an F62 and F77 myself, both with the lovely blank New Model F keycaps.
Another question concerning your HHKB, which domes do you prefer/use? I know Chyrosan says the ultimate Topre keyboard is an HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with Ultra Light BKE Redux domes. However, since the F62 switches seem to be around 55g, I'm wondering if the Topre 55g option would be the best option for switching back and forth. I know that when I switch between my Model Fs and Black Alps board, the 75g Black alps always mess up my flow going back and forth.
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I like to bottom-out my keystrokes, and I find mx black switches fatiguing because the linear force keeps increasing beyond the actuation point. Topre switches have a gentle increase and a decline in force beyond the actuation point. Model F switches have a sharp drop-off in force at the actuation point corresponding to the catastrophic collapse (buckling) of the spring. Topre switches are actually similar to buckling springs in a way, because the domes undergo a catastrophic collapse to provide the tactile response.
Regarding Topre (and Topre in the HHKB Pro 2 specifically), many people tend to prefer the stock 45g domes. You can get 55g by transplanting domes from 55g Topre keyboards, such as 55g Realforce (RF) boards. I have done this in one of my HHKB Pro 2 boards. At first, I enjoyed the exaggerated tactility, but I found that for prolonged typing sessions, 55g domes became a bit tiring. I really think that 45g is the sweet spot for both HHKB Pro 2 boards and Realforce boards.
Another factor to consider is that HHKB switches are case-mounted in the plastic case, whereas RF Topre switches are plate-mounted in a steel plate. This makes typing on the RF a bit more stressful to the fingers because of the unyielding steel plate. Although the RF feels more solid and refined than the HHKB (to me at least), I prefer typing on the HHKB -- it is livelier and less fatiguing.
Thus far, I am having no problems adjusting when I switch between my HHKB and F62 boards. I think it would be much more difficult to switch between an mx black board and either Topre or Model F.
The custom made solenoids are ready!
Here's a video of the solenoids in action! They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:
For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:Marked for reference. Thanks hypersphere!
For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboard, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of Deskthority:
https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806
Based on the excellent feedback so far I'm thinking of switching to QMK for keyboard shipments going forward, at least for now. Everyone who has had an xwhatsit firmware issue and moved to QMK seems to have their issue resolved.
Do you also follow a particular guide for floss-modding in a systematic manner? I'll probably try floss-modding mine. (edit: nvm, just reading skcheng's guide)
edit 2: ordered me some o-rings and superfloss :)
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)
hi I had a question regarding the statement on the website that this would be limited to one production run, is that still the case or did that change (The order page having been up for years now.) It would be awesome to see this become something perpetual in the same way that unicomp is still going after all these years. I'm a college student currently so I don't quite have the means to spend that amount on a keyboard, but once I do I will most definitely want to get one (if it is still in fact in production at that point.)
The production run is split into an early bird round and a regular round. We're still in the early bird round. Ellipse received the first shipment of 1,349 keyboards (which represents part of the early bird round, not all of it) on 11/20/19. So far, he's shipped about 400 of those keyboards. Only keyboards with blank keycaps (or no keycaps) have been shipped so far. Dye sub keycaps (ones with legends) are still being worked on, so none of the orders with legends on the keycaps have shipped yet.
How many years of school do you have left? You can probably graduate before this finishes.
@HypersphereIf that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!
So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol
Cheers.
@HypersphereIf that is the US version of "billion" then we are talking about the "Kishsaver" (are we talking about the F62 or the F77?) being 100 x 10^9 better than the HHKB. That's quite a large factor (on par with the number os stars in our galaxy and the number of neurons in the human brain)!
So yeah, I got a hhkb 60% as my silent option. I tried typing on it solely for like the last 2 days or so. It's great at being quiet, however it has given me a great love for my Kischsaver... lol a much greater love and appreciation for it, as it's a 100 billion times better. lol
Cheers.
As for me, my F62 and my HHKB are like my children -- they are very different from each other, but I love them equally.
(I'm typing this on my Type-S HHKB Pro Hybrid; I wanted a change of pace from the F62, and I had a conference call today during which I silently typed notes.)
Due to the extended lead times for powdercoating in China, the factory is starting preparations for colors for the final round (for both classic and compact cases). Please do post if you would like to order any previously unavailable colors and if there's enough demand (not sure of the minimum order quantity just yet) then I will look into offering them. I like Dark Blue as a powdercoated zinc case option, and maybe doing another run of the True Red which came out nice.Are there any new color options for the compact cases?
Due to the extended lead times for powdercoating in China, the factory is starting preparations for colors for the final round (for both classic and compact cases). Please do post if you would like to order any previously unavailable colors and if there's enough demand (not sure of the minimum order quantity just yet) then I will look into offering them. I like Dark Blue as a powdercoated zinc case option, and maybe doing another run of the True Red which came out nice.I love me some dark blue cases. If I have the money when it’s offered I’d pick one up.
Yes I would consider new colors for the compact cases as well.Red?
Outstanding darkcruix! Looks great!
A few of the production solenoids arrived and they are excellent!
The solenoids are more than double the weight of the original IBM beam spring solenoid in one of my 3278 keyboards.
The adjustable stroke of the new solenoids works well. At full stroke (5mm) the solenoid is at its heftiest. The solenoid was also well engineered and was able to keep up even at full stroke with my typing of 90 wpm without noticeable queueing of clicks (I prefer the 5mm maximum stroke setting. The factory default setting is 0.5mm which produces a more comparable stroke to the original solenoids). It was set to 25ms extend, 50ms retract in the xwhatsit controller settings.
Currently 90 solenoids and 106 solenoid drivers have been ordered. Both are still available to order!
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Interest check: ultra durable modern style powdercoating for classic zinc and/or compact aluminum cases?
Just wanted to share that I am working on a Technical Manual for the Model F Keyboards. I am trying to mimic the design of the original IBM Manuals.
A first draft is available here:
http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf (http://www.linux-tin.org/ModelFManual.pdf)
I am constantly updating the document in the above link, but would like to hear about any comments / corrections / suggestions / criticism...
For now, it is only a fun project for myself, but maybe I do a print in the original design like this:
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...
Hi!
I took a quick look at your draft; I'll give a detailed look later on, but for now there is one observation to be made:
In pages 7-9 you have several diagrams of keyboards with ANSI Enter and ISO Enter keys, with the various options for the splittable keys (left Shift, right Shift and Backspace), but you don't mention the "split Enter" option, a.k.a. TIE Enter, (R2 1.5U, R3 1+1.25U) — the original F62, F77 and F107 keyboards have this physical layout and the repros should support it as well.
This is important because the Model M keyboard do NOT support it (you could fit three keys there, but the R2 1.5U and the R3 1u keys produce the same scan code), but the repros do.
Hi Pete - the paint texture and color on each keyboard does vary, like the IBM originals over the decade of production.
How is QMK working out for those who are trying the beta? I've heard of no lasting issues so far with QMK as it currently stands.
I had to clean up a set of donor model M capsSame here. When I got around to installing donor caps I discovered the old ones were really dirty and needed a clean.
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.I was surprised by the heft too. This thing is solid!
My wife’s F77 showed today, will post pics tomorrow once it’s set up. I had to clean up a set of donor model M caps for use until the new ones happen. Hopefully they’ll be dry by morning :)Wait does the keyboard not come with keycaps?
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.
My wife’s F77 showed today, will post pics tomorrow once it’s set up. I had to clean up a set of donor model M caps for use until the new ones happen. Hopefully they’ll be dry by morning :)Wait does the keyboard not come with keycaps?
The case looks and feels fantastic, so much heftier than I expected.
... appear to be a touch wider and thicker, so the finalized artwork will be updated to counteract those changes.
Pete, kindly review the manual as the fix for your specific issue is described over there. I recommend requesting the QMK beta invite over on the Deskthority forum thread and following the instructions to load QMK.
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
The blue keycaps are just insanely great on industrial gray ...
Ok QMK support made me pull the trigger on a beige F77, but now wondering if I should go for silver/grey and get the blue keycaps? Any thoughts?
The blue keycaps are just insanely great on industrial gray ...
Dye sublimation update - the trial of the dye sublimation jig is set to be completed this week.
Second container shipment update - the factory is wrapping up the repairs and expects the shipment to go out before the end of October. In order to continue mailing out keyboards upon request, they will not be holding up the second container shipment for the dye sublimation to finish.
This is the first test of a full jig as opposed to previous tests of small jigs to work out how to achieve the tolerances, so it took a few weeks longer than previous test jigs.
Also I wanted to share (with permission) a great photo from a customer matching his True Red F77 with an SGI (Silicon Graphics) Fuel computer. A great setup!
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Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
I loved my F77 so much, I'm in the progress of figuring out whether I want to buy a F62 as well. These are seriously nice pieces of kit, so I'd say hop in sooner rather than later.
Hi, I've been considering this keyboard for a while now and I see that orders are accepted until Oktober? Is that the end of the early bid round? If so, what happens to orders after that?
Also if I ordered today, what's the rough estimate for it being shipped to me? Next year? 2022?
where did you see that it would only be accepted until october?
there has to be a way to make an adapter so i can use my MX keycaps on these things.. I want a solenoid pretty bad.
there has to be a way to make an adapter so i can use my MX keycaps on these things.. I want a solenoid pretty bad.
No way, the shape is the total opposite of mx, the only way to do it would be to add an insane amount of height.
Okay so I just received my brand new F62 & F77 from Joe and I don't know how else to say this....
I could not love this thing anymore than I do. It's incredible. For all the keyboards, for all the switches I've tried, I finally understand why the Model F is considered one of the best typing experiences you can ask for.
The sheer weight of them is astounding. My fiancée asked to see this super expensive keyboard I bought and I handed her the F77 and she almost dropped it when I let go. I also might have omitted that I bought two in a moment of weakness when I thought I'd regret not having the numpad on the side.
I got the beige F62 and industrial gray F77 and at first glance, the industrial gray looked so much better but the longer I sit in front of it, the more I'm coming around to the beige as it matches better with the buttons that it came with. The only way I can describe it is "vintage clean".
The sounds this thing makes is epic. As someone who sits in a home office alone 90% of my workday, you'd think the loud noise wouldn't be a factor. I've typed on keyboards before while on conference calls and not had it been too bad. That is simply not the case here. Every single person I've been on conference call this week have all commented on the 'enhanced' noise. So whenever there are other ears "present", I have to rely on my KVM and pulling in a silent killer. But when it's just me? Holy ****. I never thought I would love it as much as I do. My models seem to have a decent amount of spring sing and I've seen a number of youtube videos employing the floss mod to quiet it so I figured if my model had it, I'd mod it because I didn't like the spring sounds I'd heard so often through Chyro's videos or demos even of this board. There's no chance of me doing that now. While wearing my headset, it is the perfect combination of music [from the springs] and actual music.
Literally the only part that I could possibly have anything to complain about would be the USB cable it came with. They both came with super long cords but one was sheathed and the other straight plastic. I hate both of them. But they're super easy to replace. So I can barely complain about that as well.
Overall, very well done, Joe. I had moments of panic after dropping that kind of money on a switch type that I had never even experienced--I have a M122 and Lexmark Model M sans buckling springs boards but they're nowhere near this. Joe was super responsive with all of his correspondence and answered all my questions and even went above and beyond in explaining simple stuff to me that was clearly on his website had I taken the time to read it all properly instead of being hasty in my excitement. Joe is awesome. Model F Keyboards is awesome. This keyboard is awesome.
Alright, I'm off to respond to all these work emails coming in with a big smile on my face. :)
How do you like the F62? I am loving my beige F77 (for all the reasons you mention) and am determined to pickup a 2nd board, just can't make my mind up between the F62 or another F77 (in another colorway)
I will say I recently switched to a Jabra Engage 75 for work calls, and the noise cancelling on it is so good that I was not able to demo the sound of the keys to a friend over skype, ended up having to record a separate video to send to him.
Got my Industrial Grey F77 last week. Knowing what I know now, I would wait 5 years and not regret it in the least.
It's... marvelous, to such an extent that a friend who had previously been thoroughly unimpressed by a boltmodded ~94 Model M said "I wasn't expecting to like it after the M experience, but this is simply lovely. Light switches, "precise" feel, the whole package". I second that opinion.
All keys worked out of the box(after putting the blank keycaps on - smart choice to pack them separately, I could see such massive PBT boulders be a risk to ship mounted, despite the excellent packing), the layout was what I intended to set it to, there wasn't any sensing threshold issue or USB issue or anything like that, it seems everything has been ironed out. It seems to have come with QMK.
I read about the early tooling and assembly hurdles, but Ellipse's incredible attention to detail has really paid off. The Classic zinc alloy case in particular looks like a high quality commercial product. I couldn't believe the symmetry and the paint job is one I distinctly remember from 80s IBM powder coating(which is to say imperfect, but in the *exact* way required for authenticity, if that makes sense).
I know some have said it previously, but this in an M layout would probably eat a large chunk of the fancy MX clone market. Can't imagine why the Modern case F62 wouldn't do so for the whole 60% trend, apart from the limited production run.
As it stands, the F77 is close enough to a TKL for me.
I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate the attention to detail is the same for the printed keys as for the rest of the keyboard.
I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate the attention to detail is the same for the printed keys as for the rest of the keyboard.
Agreed. I just brought my F77 to the office to annoy my boss. Instead of being annoyed, he was impressed with the quality, shocked by the weight, and then proceeded to recount all these tales of installing old XT & AT terminal units back in the day at $3-8k a pop.
Naturally, I'm excited about the keycaps because I'm sure as hell not going to find all blue with dye-sub legends on Unicomp's website! I've got some donor sets that will hold me over but I can't wait until those blues and blacks.
Thanks darkcruix for your update on the case powdercoating and on the Model F manual.
Interest check: ultra durable modern style powdercoating for classic zinc and/or compact aluminum cases?
Just to show everyone how far powdercoating has come: here's a video of me taking the end of a screwdriver and trying to damage these samples. Only the faintest of marks was left on these cases.
I am wondering if anyone would be interested in tough coatings for the final round. I am planning on switching at least the compact cases to the tough powdercoating instead of the anodizing. The appearance is great for both of them and the powdercoating is far more durable than anodizing. You'll still be able to get the classic powdercoating no matter what, as a possible option for the classic style cases.
All painting and anodizing is staying the same for now. I will post an update if that changes in the future.
Please see my prior note about the Function keys - the below alignment is not correct for the function keys and Esc keys (as well as other keys) and they will be standard Model F / Model M locations for the production key sets.
Yes the key cap sets are full 103 key sets so you could even use them on another buckling spring keyboard. Check any of the 4 product pages to see the key set keys. If you order any F77 with a key set, you get another key - the 1U 0 Ins key for the number pad area.
Yep sam that is a good idea to get a spare key set because the key tops wear down after a few years of usage. Check out the project web site blog to see an example of my original IBM F122 keys before and after a few years of usage.
The key sets for this project are full and include Function keys etc. so that they can be used on other buckling spring keyboards (Model M, original Model F). Everyone ordering a key set gets the full set instead of just 62/77 keys.
Great online, glad you are joining the project! Kindly see my replies below:Thanks for answering the questions! Just placed an order. :)
1. Yes
2. It has micro USB most likely (some keyboards have USB-C).
3. Please email me to confirm lead times.
4. Please contact Deskthority user pandrew to confirm QMK details.
5. Your order looks good!
Great funkmon; glad your keyboard arrived safely and is working well!
As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.
Great pchatterjee, glad your keyboard arrived OK!
Yes, the factory default is ~ ` as the function layer of the top left key (Esc). Press Fn+Esc for ` and Fn+Shift+Esc for ~. Fn is defaulted to the right ctrl key on the non-HHKB layouts and the 1U key to the right of the HHKB style split right shift key.
Everyone can see the full default layout and function layers as it has been added to each of the 4 product pages - example https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/
Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out? These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts. Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.
I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:
Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.
Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.
Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?
My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.
W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.
Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.
All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.
Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”
My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.
W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.
Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.
All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.
Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”
Do any seem heavy though? I think there's a very minimal difference between my ATs and my XT, and a minimal difference between all of those and my two 4704 boards, one old and one new. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I hadn't at least used two of those separate types very recently though. I may even need to have them side by side. None of them seem heavy at all to me and never have. I always got this sense that they even seem too light for the perceived tactility.
Do any seem heavy though?
I think that keyboard mileage is also a factor. This Lexmark M that I am typing on now was pretty stiff when I bought it new in 1994. I was comparing it to the well-used IBM Ms that I was using in some of the old computer labs at school at the time. I used this keyboard all through college and then brought it to work where it became my work keyboard for well over a decade. I own several over M's of various vintages as well as some Unicomps. This keyboard is the softest of the Ms that I own, but is still stiffer than any of my Model Fs.
Do any seem heavy though?
None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.
Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.
Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.
Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?
I really appreciate all the recent feedback.
To add some more to my post - with my XT I believe it was the initial tactile bump pressure that was what was causing my fatigue as they would collapse rapidly and with ease once that was overcome. At the time I did many searches and found very, very few people that seemed to have the same issue as me though a handful on Deskthority did say it was the heaviest switch he used, heavier than others like Topre 55 and Cherry MX Clear. The spacebar on my XT was also no doubt causing some of that thumb fatigue as well but I guess that is understandable with that massive spacebar and hitting it towards the edge of the bar.
On my comment on the vint blacks - my daily use one is from a NOS Cherry board board with switches so smooth they feel factory lubed, for some reason even with stock springs it feels lighter than any vint black from WYSE terminals... probably because every WYSE terminal I've harvested switches from has junk sandpaper switches making them feel heavy. But even having said that I do not use those with stock springs they have been swapped with Sprits.
Do any seem heavy though?
None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.
Do you mind listing some other switches that you find heavier, roughly similar and lighter than your new Model F? Just to give me some context. I've used nearly every Cherry and Alps switch and both Topre weights. I just don't have experience with the rare and exotic switches.
US ANSI, Mac, and HHKB 6 key sets are included in B stock.
Hasu's descriptions might be able to help - Hasu made a 4704 converter that uses the original 4704 controllers.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54706.0
chiefmatex - responded to your PM
Shipping update - all of the "all in stock" single digit and custom/low serial 2016 orders that can ship out, have shipped out, including one ordered by Lazy Game Reviews! Next up is 2017. As always please do email me if your address has changed.
We are about 1-2 weeks away from the arrival of the second container ship! It is currently at sea.
Shipping update - all of the "all in stock" single digit and custom/low serial 2016 orders that can ship out, have shipped out, including one ordered by Lazy Game Reviews! Next up is 2017. As always please do email me if your address has changed.
We are about 1-2 weeks away from the arrival of the second container ship! It is currently at sea.
I have received the keycap kit as well. Except the Option/Alt Key and the Num-Pad is now original!!! And they feel so smooth... Wow... Especially the Shift keys are a world apart from the Model M variants I had before.
The printing is soooo sharp and the print is .... Wow
Absolutely - have a look at the Technical Manual at https://www.bucklingspring.com (https://www.bucklingspring.com). In section 4 (4.11 Expansion Header) you'll find all details. In my case I have it configured to show me the different layers.
The Lazy Game Reviews video has been posted!
I saw the video and have included my replies below as well as in the YouTube comments section.
Do people prefer Fn between Left Ctrl and Left Alt? I use the GUI key a lot in order to open programs.
Also someone mentioned the ability to have more than one layout programmed with QMK, in order to switch layouts. Is that something that's easy to do? Wondering if I could program one as the default (say if someone chooses 0-9 and cursor keys) and then with a key combination the user can switch to the layout with the Ins/Del/etc. right side block.
My comments below:
I thought I'd reply with some of my thoughts on the points in the video.
As a general note I am pretty open to feedback from everyone - just send over a message! The goal of the project is to make the Model F experience as fun as possible, despite the quirks of setting up and using the new or original Model F keyboards.
Industrial Gray color - IBM colors seemed to vary slightly over time. The IBM Industrial Gray color selected for the project is matched to an original IBM Industrial SSK, part 1395682 - the case bottom was sent to the factory so they could custom mix the color since an exact Pantone type match could not be found. There are other IBM Industrial Gray colors that are less olive and more neutral gray, including an IBM Industrial Gray XT type keyboard. I would describe the Industrial SSK gray as a gray-green-tan type color.
Yep you certainly deserve serial 0 thanks to your support of the project - the serials start at 0 for each of the keyboard models. You have the first production serial! I am glad that this keyboard will be in your rotation of keyboards, even if it is not a daily driver!
Some springs not seated properly during the unboxing: unfortunately sometimes a few springs move out of place as these keyboards are bounced around in shipping - hope it did not take too much time for you to adjust the Enter key and space bar. My recommendation to everyone is to check out the project manual for the key installation video (of which a quick clip was shown in your video). Holding the keyboard vertically, space bar end up is the quickest way to successfully re-seat any of the keys.
Offline/standalone QMK configuration program - seems like a good idea. Hopefully the QMK folks can consider it.
The old xwhatsit firmware was problematic for a small but significant number of folks so we switched to QMK. QMK is currently in beta but will hopefully move to the main project soon.
Longwinded/not too clear documentation - yes you are correct! Hoping to improve this.
Keyboard feet - the stick on or screw on feet options allow for up to a 1 inch rise similar to the height of the other Model F keyboards, with other options for 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, and 1/2 inch. Most people only ask for the cork but people can pick another set for free if they'd like - let me know if you wanted any of the other feet and I'll mail them to you.
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/
Regarding the default layout programming - there are a lot of good suggestions for better placement of the Fn key from where I put it in the default. Some people put it in the blank key to the left of the Up cursor key. I see how between Ctrl and Alt is also good to consider for certain key combinations with the left hand.
Regarding lack of additional keys for media editing and other types of work - agreed that the compact Model F keyboards are best for certain tasks but not for all tasks. I believe they are best for writing/typing, including long typing/programming sessions, and not as strong for gaming and work on other media.
Regarding outdated Q&A forum posts - thanks for letting me know about this. I just cleaned up some of the old Q&A posts related to the older stuff - hope this improves things. If anyone sees anything that's out of date I always appreciate a heads up so I can update it.
Update on solenoids:
Below are photos of the mounting hardware for the solenoids, along with photos showing the process to adjust the solenoid throw distance and securely mount the solenoid in any classic case (F62 or F77). These are included for free by default with all orders of solenoids - no need to request it.
Also included are two nylon washers so as to protect the case finish from the mounting screw. One washer goes between the top of the screw and the bottom of the case, and the other washer goes inside the case, between the case and the solenoid.
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
These are my notes:
1. Need to override matrix.c error check for bootmagic_enable
2. Need to change raw_hid_receive to raw_hid_receive_kb in xwhatsit/util_comm.c
You also need to make your own JSON for the keyboard which is a bit of pain since the matrix is all over the place and then manually load it in VIA in order to use the configurator (attached mine, depending on your layout you may need to mod it).
...
You can make the F77 work with QMK VIA, which gives you the offline ability to configure the keyboard, but unfortunately there are some caveats at the moment.
The main fallback in VIA if the configuration gets borked it is wipe the EEPROM by holding the ESC key down during the keyboard initialization to trigger an EEPROM wipe, unfortunately the initialization phase of the keyboard is when the controller figures out how to read the keys, holding the key down results in the key not being calibrated properly to be read so the EEPROM wipe doesn't trigger.
There are other ways to fix issues with the EEPROM but they are not super customer friendly.
How are you getting it working with VIA? Admittedly, I haven't done a deep dive into it, yet, but:
I added VIA_ENABLE = yes to the rules.mk
and did a
#undef BOOTMAGIC_ENABLE
#undef BOOTMAGIC_LITE in config.h.
In the end, I am getting a ELF linking error - any more advices?
I am also in the process to get the QMK Web Kit loaded to my server, but this endeavor is not as straight forward as someone would think. :)
These are my notes:
1. Need to override matrix.c error check for bootmagic_enable
2. Need to change raw_hid_receive to raw_hid_receive_kb in xwhatsit/util_comm.c
You also need to make your own JSON for the keyboard which is a bit of pain since the matrix is all over the place and then manually load it in VIA in order to use the configurator (attached mine, depending on your layout you may need to mod it).
Works like a treat - here is my JSON for the F77-SplitRightShift_SplitBackspace (more to come)
The factory has air mailed the next batch of sublimated keys! Still they are all US ANSI regular printed key sets, HHKB 6 key sets, and Mac sets for now.
350 full ANSI US key sets are included in this batch.
Now they will have sent me enough key sets for the time being so that I am now the bottleneck in terms of testing and mailing out each keyboard! As I noted last week, it's going to take me probably between several months and the rest of the year to mail out all the keyboards and there is no more separate shipping or other early requests. The only way to prioritize is with the custom/low serial option.
Curious if this will be the longest GH GB to be completed (plenty left incomplete). It’ll be the end of an era the day the title gets modified.
Curious if this will be the longest GH GB to be completed (plenty left incomplete). It’ll be the end of an era the day the title gets modified.
Or possibly the Matias 60%?
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Via is still in testing phase, but for those who want to give it a try, here is the link for the download of a firmware for F77 or F62, doc, and layout file: https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/ (https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/)
Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!
Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
Via is still in testing phase, but for those who want to give it a try, here is the link for the download of a firmware for F77 or F62, doc, and layout file: https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/ (https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/)
There are some important things to know about VIA and the F77
There are two main ways with stock VIA to get it to ignore a key map stored in EEPROM
1. Use Bootmagic lite to reset the keyboard, VIA enabled firmware will then ignore the currently stored keymap
2. flash the KB with a version of VIA firmware that was compiled on a different day (VIA compares the FW date with a value stored in EEPROM)
The issue with the F77 is that you can't use bootmagic because the keyboard calibration routine that runs on powerup will mean that a held key is not detected when the control gets to the bootmagic routine.
So if you are using VIA on the F77, and the keymap becomes corrupt in some way (and e.g. causes the FW to crash), then your recovery choice is to compile a new version of VIA and flash it in yourself. Flashing in a regular QMK build *will not* clear the EEPROM, when you go back to your VIA FW the same key map will still be there. Non QMK FW may or may not fix it depending on whether it actually changes the EEPROM.
pandrew has a utility that in theory can clear the EEPROM, but it uses the same communication channel as VIA, so to use it will likely have to flash in a non VIA FW to make it work.
It is unknown how much of problem not being able to clear the EEPROM is. I have had no issues with any of my VIA enabled keyboards to date, so possibly this is a non issue, but the VIA folk thought it was important enough to enforce Bootmagic lite in VIA builds.
My take, use it, by just be warned you may have to muck around a bit more to recover a messed up keymap :-)
Will it be possible to turn a solenoid off and on through VIA, or is that functionality not possible through the software?
Still trying to figure out how to use QMK on my board, is it basically just like any other QMK board after configuring in the link from the google doc? Or is there a particular procedure for updating? Also wondering if the default factory keybinds included a reset somewhere deep in a layer. Been about 6 months since I've used QMK so I'm a bit rusty and have no idea what VIA is or does beyond that its a local software configurator. Also which of the models contained in the beta corresponds to the new model f62 with the most basic pcb layout? It would be cool if you did a quick video walkthrough as a part of the online manual.
On another note, is there any plan or deadline to take the QMK out of the closed beta state and bring it into QMK proper?
I mean if the original QMK was easy enough for an ape like me to use, I would hope that VIA wouldn't force me to leap through any more hoops. If it is faster and easier to adjust the layout with VIA that normal QMK then I'd consider using it.
I mean I'm dumb, has someone done a video guide for VIA?
I just flashed my F62 with the VIA firmware because I desired the ability to do string macros without having to manually compile QMK. And I have to say, it was incredibly easy to install, and even easier to configure. Now I have custom macros for Discord commands which I think would've taken a lot longer to implement in QMK.
Solenoid configuration - some helpful advice from pandrew.
There were some reports of the new solenoids not operating under full power - this is due to the default QMK settings that require adjustment...
Yes, solenoids and solenoid drivers started shipping en masse last month, as the second container shipment arrived last month. Along with beamspring controllers too!
As a general note for everyone, I am still working on mailing out everyone's orders and cannot estimate where everyone is in the line or how long it will take for someone's order to ship.
Dye sublimation update on the blue printed US ANSI, UK pearl/pebble, and dark gray US ANSI printed key sets:
The factory reports they have completed 150 blue, 50 UK, and 125 gray key sets and will be mailing them to me by express air shipping in the coming days, with the next batch of pearl/pebble US ANSI sublimated key sets. Also sending 60 blue hhkb 6 key sets and the same number of gray sets, plus 15 6 key mac sets each for both these colors. I will be posting photos soon after!
This means that orders containing these key sets will be eligible to get into the queue for shipping assuming everything is in stock (the split shipping option is not available any more) - we are still going in the original shipping order where possible so shipping is still going to be months away for most orders as I am the final bottleneck of the project, inspecting each keyboard and putting each order together one at a time. As noted earlier I am unable to estimate where any one particular order is in the queue but I send out a tracking number by email as soon as each order ships.
I won't be scanning any other key sets but will be taking photos of each set.
Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets. The factory expects to start production on these in a few days. If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.
As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set. Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).
As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only. I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.
To view them larger, you can click the image and right click to save the file.
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it. It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.
Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too! The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"
Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
Hapi it is OK to produce the full Czech set as long as Zed is ok to create it. It is not required to produce only the unique keys for a given layout.
Everyone please post here or message me if you'd like the Czech set.
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too! The current list of available sets is on the shop page: "Full key set"
Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
I understand. I'm ok with full keyset. I plan to buy 10 US ANSI sets if you Czech was not possible. If it is Czech, I can easily buy them 20. I could even think about a higher number.
Just for info: Peacock is very old Czech keyset. Now very popular on Drop. Modern Czech layout has some differences.
Hi Hapi, we also have a discussion about Czech sets going on over on DT. I am doing the set and trying to figure out which layouts are preferred. Do you want Apple, Peacock, IBM or Modern?
http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf (http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visual-Comparison-of-Different-National-Layouts/KBD243.pdf)
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.
The absolute best are the keys with English fron-printed legends, just like peacock has. The ideal Czech layout would therefore look like the one in the picture in this post.
I'm not sure if we can do all the Peacock/English front print legends but I will do the Apple style layout at least. We will also send you a file for approval before going to the printers but I have a few other languages to do before I can get to the Czech set.
The next batch of key sets arrived! The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below).
(Attachment Link)
Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.
What can I say? I fell headfirst into the world of linear switches not long after joining this buy.Neato, my order just shipped. Now the question is whether I even like buckling springs at this point anymore, lmao.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/VMtdrgb.jpeg)
The next batch of key sets arrived! The first UK key set is going out next week as part of Chyrosran22's order (photo below).
(Attachment Link)
I should have ordered the full-size F62 eons ago instead of the ultracompact. Nonetheless, my upgraded F62 arrived over a month ago and I've been using it since.
Below are photos of the new Industrial SSK Blue and 60% Dark Gray key sublimated key sets installed on a new Model F keyboard.
The sublimation came out great for both of these colors. Please disregard the colors as they are not 100% accurate. In person the Industrial SSK blue is an exact match to the original IBM Industrial SSK Model M blue keys.
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Ellipse wrote: ↑May 26th, 2020, 11:31 pm
Inner foam update: the foam material I chose for the project was a far higher quality/durability type of foam than what IBM used. The foam has been known to last for many years and does not crumble with age like some of IBM's foam. The downside is that it is a little denser and therefore may make these keyboards ever so slightly less noisy. For the final round I am thinking about offering a more authentic foam that is very similar to the non-crumbly foam that IBM used in some of their Model F keyboards (the foam is so good that this 1980s foam still looks and performs well in these old keyboards today!). After a long search I finally believe I identified the right material. In the end I will probably offer the denser foam as a choice when getting extra foam in case people want an ever so slightly quieter Model F, but not as an installed option (would add too much complexity and probably not make a sound difference that most folks would notice).
Ladies and germs... after 4 years and 6 months, my model F has shipped. What a day. :thumb: :thumb:
Regarding Chyrosran22's video that was just linked to above by MemeScreen, I especially liked the stop motion type animation with the keys and the synchronization of the animation of the keys with the music. Very well done!
I think QMK is popular enough and well known enough that chryos not liking the VIA gui, and not being a programmer isn't that big of a deal, it's also not surprising.
Being open source we can certainly improve it in response to any valid feedback, but I suspect the things he wants arn't what everyone else wants, and a significant fork which allows softwareless macro recording would be more up his street, idk, I guess we'll see when his review comes out.
What I don't like is VIA. It is unnecessary software overhead using resources while not being worth the resources used.
Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey
Update: New transparent cap reproductions now available to order, for delivery around year end 2021 (not until the keyboards have gone out - getting the keyboards out is my continued top priority).
Has anyone ever managed to get a programmable led to shine through one of these?
Will all the keyboards ship by year end? (I’m waiting on a Carolina Blue one and solenoids).
Yes Pete - scan through the imgur album of all the keyboard variations to see the dark blue case. It came out nicely and so did the light blue (Carolina Blue) case. https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0
I especially like the combination of the black classic F77 case and the dark gray printed keys.
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Help request: Model F code refactoring for QMK submission?
Would anyone be able to help with refactoring pandrew's Model F code for submission to the QMK project? I am hoping to have this expedited to simplify the process of changing the Model F layout. It is my understanding that QMK will not accept the code as it stands. If interested feel free to reply here or PM me for more information relayed to me from pandrew…
I got all the keys installed and working, and the next step is to try installing the solenoid!
Kavik the solenoid should work out of the box with my Via hex files in the manual on the project web site. They default to being powered on. I do not know about the custom functions not working.
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual. The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed. Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual? If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.
Any suggestions on where to get some yellow keycaps?Easily from Unicomp: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CustomKey
First troubleshooting step is to set everything up with the factory default firmware file - more instructions in the firmware video in the manual. The solenoid is factory set to a working configuration - no option changes needed. Did you follow the solenoid installation guide in the manual? If the 6 position cable was installed in the wrong direction on either the controller or solenoid driver board, you may have fried the solenoid driver.
Yeah, I followed the manual, making sure to orient the red wire with the square pins. The fact that the PC speaker works shows that the driver is ok. I think when I tightened the screw on the L shaped mounting bracket, the screw went too far in and broke a couple of the copper wires on the solenoid's spool, so it can't complete the circuit.
I'll just order a new solenoid from you.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my issues.
As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video. This video shows how the top inner assembly steel plates are laser cut. This is the first step of the process, before they are bent to shape and then finally powdercoated. As you can tell, each hole is done one at a time so it is a relatively long process for thousands of keyboards.
The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two.
Also, thanks for posting that dark-grey & blue on black chassis image above, that solidified my color choices.
dnf install dfu-programmer
lsusb
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash /path/to/fw.hex
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 launch
Are you using my adjusted firmware or firmware generated by the QMK beta web site? My firmware has the solenoid timings set to 20-30 ms, while the QMK beta web site has a setting requiring an adjustment (detailed in the manual on the project web site). With my settings, I have not been able to cause a missed solenoid stroke even with super fast random letter typing.
I hope to continue mailing out all the orders the rest of this year into early next year.
Damage a full photo by photo guide is in the manual on the project web site - Solenoid section :)
BlissOnTap glad the keys arrived safely!
Damage a full photo by photo guide is in the manual on the project web site - Solenoid section :)
BlissOnTap glad the keys arrived safely!
Ok, the images are very helpful in terms of how to mount the solenoid. None of the pictures show how the solenoid driver gets mounted, though. There is a screw hole in the driver--does it mount via some screw in the case? Again, a picture would probably solve everything.
Sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this massive 60 page thread, but how much long will you be accepting keycap orders? I am interested in buying some of the blue caps.
And while I'm asking, I might as well also ask if there is a set deadline on buying the keyboard itself. But I'm mostly interested in getting some of these keycaps while I can. Especially since it appears not many opted for the blue keycaps, surprisingly. So I really wanna grab some before it becomes difficult to get some aftermarket.
Some people have asked if there was a standard for naming keys.
I thought that was a valid question, and here is an answer.
The W3C publishes the main web standards, and it includes standards for referring to both physical keys
and the different meanings associated with pressing one or more of those keys.
From the docs:
CODE
code holds a string that identifies the physical key being pressed.
The value is not affected by the current keyboard layout or modifier state,
so a particular key will always return the same value.
KEY
A key string that corresponds to the character typed by the user, taking into account the user’s current locale setting,
modifier state, and any system-level keyboard mapping overrides that are in effect.
It is acceptable for multiple keys on a keyboard to generate the same key attribute value
Code and Key standards:
https://www.w3.org/TR/uievents-code/
https://www.w3.org/TR/uievents-key/
The motivation and the system behind it:
https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#events-keyboardevents
I am sharing (with permission) another nice color combination that someone sent me, with the plan to install the custom 12 Key Industrial SSK set when it is ready (the factory is still wrapping up the remaining custom keys and sets and should wrap things up by year end - the approval process has taken longer than expected for these sets but I'd rather see adequately-aligned sets before rapid sublimation can start - every offered key set style has its alignment and content checked to make sure it is good, before the remaining sets can be sublimated).
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Thank you for your feedback. So far I have tested and mailed more than 1,900 keyboards and will continue mailing keyboards this year and early next year until they have all gone out. The reasons behind the long waits have been documented in detail on the updates page of the project web site. You are correct that I cannot estimate when a particular order is expected to go out, but all the remaining orders and keyboards will be going out over the coming months, probably for the next six to seven months or so for me to get out the rest of the orders. I thank everyone for their patience as these great keyboards are brought back into production, even though it has taken far longer than expected.
As noted on the blog, the delays have historically been both factory delays and delays due to the final bottleneck of the project - me - as I continue getting out the orders. The factory is wrapping up dye sublimation of the remaining key sets this month, as noted in the latest blog entry. The last sets to be sublimated are all the international language sets as well as all of the front-printed sets and custom one-off type keys and sets.
As noted several times, the new beam spring project is in no way delaying the current project and it is only starting to accept orders after I have sent out the Model F keyboard orders. There has definitely been some down time in the project, including before late 2019 when the factory finished up the first container shipment and when we were waiting for the first batch of the dye sub caps to finish, so I was able to work on this other project without it being a bottleneck. I've also been able to work on other small stuff like IBM XT/122/107/AT style foam, additional beam spring controllers, the solenoid drivers and custom made solenoids, and the transparent relegendable caps.
Yes it is definitely a lot to take in and process for those not following the project closely but if anyone has any questions feel free to post here or contact me directly through PM.
My patience remains.
Here are some more photos from the keyboard assembly process. Several hundred thousand parts needed to be assembled for the current container shipment leaving at month end. As shown in one of the videos on the project's YouTube channel, the final inner assembly step is for the custom made pneumatic machine to press the bottom inner assembly with PCB onto the other parts.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos
This photo also shows the more authentic XT style foam being used for the current container shipment, as opposed to the foam used for prior shipments. As the new foam is less dense, I expect it will result in sound quality that is slightly less muffled, but this may not be noticeable. For those who prefer the higher sound dampening properties of the older foam, all of the extra foam is still that style (there is no option to get extras of the XT style foam at this time, besides the foam for the IBM XT keyboard itself which is still available).
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For the black keys dont forget HHKB compatibility. And since they are pad printed, will you be offering front side pad prints?
Confirmed on the HHKB compatibility but no front printing for the pad printing as it would double production time and cost.
Yes confirmed
I am still quite amazed at how many of these got made in the end.
Yes confirmed. Or you can order any ISO configured keyboard and the layout will automatically reflect ISO.
There are various international sets thanks to Zed - they are listed on the F62 and F77 product pages.
Question for all the coders:
Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks? Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers. After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed.
It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040. The question is, is it better to go with KMK? How stable is it? It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready. Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware
What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip? Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?
Question for all the coders:
Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks? Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers. After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed.
It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040. The question is, is it better to go with KMK? How stable is it? It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready. Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware
What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip? Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?
Hello Ellipse,
Please let me try to answer your questions the best I can as a non-expert/hobbyist guy.
About KMK.
Never wrote a KMK firmware but had a quick look at the repository source code and a few keyboard firmwares.
It looks to be very easy to write a custom firmware with KMK and the code is very compact and readable.
KMK needs quite a lot of memory but the RP2040 has plenty of it so it is not a big deal.
KMK caveats:
1) Firmware is written in Python, so any modification to the key layout means modifying python code.
Not a big deal for a seasoned developper as KMK developpers made their best to be an easy process, but can be a blocker for non-programmers.
2) No VIA/VIAL support currently.
And again non-programmers may be reluctant to dive in python source code for any key layout modifications.
KarlK90 version of QMK:
He looks to have done a pretty good job to add most of the needed features.
A thing that could be a miss is the lack of EEPROM emulation (using flash storage), but easily compensated by using an external EEPROM chip.
Now I did not tested that is was indeed working.
About the amount of work to port to RP2040 MCU:
An xwhasit like PCB need to be designed, tested and a firmware written for it.
As for the hardware differences the most obvious is the operating voltage (3.3V for the RP2040, 5V for an ATMEGA).
Tom Wong-Cornall (the designer of xwhasit PCB and firmware) was unsure in this blog if his technique would work sufficiently well with 3.3V output instead of 5V.
If the answer is yes his design could be simplified a bit by getting rid of the two 74AHC595 shift register controllers and drive the thing directly with the RP2040 IO pins.
Otherwise those shift registers will need to stay and the PCB design will have to be modified to use mixed (3.3V and 5V) voltages as RP2040 IO pins are not 5V tolerant.
That looks a significant amount of work but at the same same time looks very exiting to do :D
IMO RP2040 most compelling features is not its current availability, but its PIO feature that could be used for efficiently reading the outputs of the comparators.
And of course there is its incredible price and the fact that it is a dual core beast ;)
The alternative:
Gondolindrim has done quite a lot of research on capacitive sensing for keyboards and came recently with a very interesting design that he discussed about on Twitch.
He focused on Topre-like capasitive sensing and the solution looks quite advanced.
See this GH thread here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105035.150
He also did a lot of work to mitigate MCUs frequent shortages and came with a multi-MCU (STM32 based) compatible template called Joker.
I see more and more PCB designers using Gondo's Joker template recently and it has been proven to work well for it's TKL PCB designs, some used by Geon.
More info here:
http://acheronproject.com/joker_mcus/joker/
Hope I've been of any help.
PS:
You've made be want to dive into this problem :p
Brand new Colemak F77 reporting for duty :O
Very nice photos Glod! Which USB cable is that, if I may ask?
Mini-meetup in NYC - September or October?
I have been generously invited to speak about the project at the NYC office of a well-known tech firm. I'd like to schedule it for a Wednesday in September or October, after I've caught up with the backlog, which I expect to go through during the rest of this month and part of next month.
Their meetup is just for company employees; I was thinking of a mini-meetup open to the public on the same day in the late afternoon.
Is anyone willing to host a mini-meetup in Manhattan that would be open to the public? The space would need tables to show off any keyboards that folks bring there.
Head over to the project web site - click manual - firmware section where you can clone the QMK gitis this the URL? - http://purdea.ro/qmk_firmware/
Please follow the instructions in the manual to download it - they are for linux. You can't use a browser.
For Windows this may help but you may need to ask someone for more details: download from https://git-scm.com/download/win
line endings-select to leave as is
no caching
to clone a git repo, use Git CMD
confirmed working 11/13/21 but it does not download the git version history needed to correctly compile (need to clone the full github.com qmk first to get these files?)
If someone could help improve the Windows instructions please let me know.
You have to give the stabilisers a good push for the last few millimetres. Absolutely delighted with my board which I got a couple of weeks ago. Apart from one small issue which Joe resolved very quickly and professionally (missing component) it has just been plug and play for me. No issues with keys whatsoever. Important to note as on the forums here it can sometimes look like issues are common and to be expected but in reality they are probably the exception.
Anyway my question - I've bought myself a new macbook which has very limited port options necessitating the purchase of a usb dock. I'm looking at Caldigital's Element Hub which is powered. I'd be very disappointed if I bought this only to realise that the keyboard won't work off it. Anyone have an ideas whether it should be okay?
Also an unrelated query for the technologically minded - can you run a DVI monitor through a thunderbolt 4 port these days? These Thunderbird ports confuse me they seem to be able to do anything?
I'm trying to flash new QMK firmware to my F77. In the online configurator, I see special keycode options for 'Reset', 'Debug' and 'EEPROM reset'. Do any of these correspond to the QK_BOOT keycode that the documentation suggests is the appropriate way to enter the bootloader, or do I need to enter QK_BOOT as a custom keycode?
I believe Reset enters the bootloader mode.
"Reset" is indeed the one that enters the bootloader.
Assemble your own new Model F Keyboard - any interest?
I have enough spare parts to offer about 40-50 keyboards unassembled (just the flippers and springs would be assembled). Please PM or email me if interested and I can send details. The savings would be very small compared to an assembled kit but it would be a fun project. You would be issued a serial label and box label with a keyboard kit.
Hi Folks,I just opened my F62 and it has an USB C connector on the onside.
I would like to put a shorter cable on my F77 as its plugging straight into the front of a powered usb hub at the foot of my monitor. I haven't opened up the case. I'm guessing it is USB C inside? Is there anything I have to keep in mind before I purchase a cable?
Please see today's blog update post for a summary of the various goings-on with the project in recent months:
https://modelfkeyboards.com/blog
Photos of the new die cast injection molds for the new Model M style cases
The below photos show the 3 new M Style aluminum die cast case tops, unpainted, as well as the mold for the F122 case top. The bottom cases are made by CNC milling and bending, as a mold was not needed.
You will notice from the photos below (and more clearly in the photos on each of the new M Style case product pages) that the F122 retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the expanded case size of the original IBM F122 and M122, and the FSSK retains the original IBM full size Model M case design and not the reduced-size top bezel as found in the original IBM SSK (Space Saving Keyboard). The main reasons for this are to keep the designs consistent (the F122, F104, and FSSK all are the same exact length from front to back, even though the F122 has an extra row) and also to allow the solenoid driver and solenoid to fit comfortably inside all 3 of the keyboards.
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The new M Style case dimensions are the same as with the original Model M keyboards but the insides and bottom case plate were redesigned to accommodate the thicker Model F inner assembly.
The top bezel is ... bigger on the FSSK. The FSSK has the same dimensions as the 101 key Model M, with the right side removed.
Just ordered my third board. I kinda like the website, it's like the unicomp site but worse. This recent time I ordered an FSSK and just chose options without really knowing what they were. IBM SSK Keycaps? Are they just the pearl & white ones I see in pictures? who knows, sounds good :p I'm sure I'll love it though, keep up the awesome work!
Is there a way to buy an extra spacebar or two?
Here are the first photos of the completed and tested M Style FSSK sample; it is configured with the HHKB Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace. Since the ~ ` key is left of the 1 ! key, I was not sure which key to place in the rightmost key of the block, so I selected a blank key. Any ideas on how folks plan on configuring their FSSK layout with such a configuration?
For the M Style case keyboards, wcass has ingeniously updated the PCB design to allow for the same PCB to support both HHKB style split right shift and regular right shift, to cut down on the number of PCB variations.
As noted earlier, these are the rejected sample cases that have defects (casting defects, they did not drill all of the mounts and screws correctly so the inner assembly has sunk inside the keyboard, etc.). Fortunately the keyboard is fully functional in my testing with QMK today.
The case bottoms have 4 holes for optional screw-on bumpers, plus 2 holes to mount a solenoid. The case tops have two internal posts, one to mount a solenoid and one for the P clip (USB cable strain relief).
You can also notice the changes to the interconnections between top and bottom inner assembly
1. They now have additional tabs between the first two rows, just like the IBM F122 and F104 originals. I believe this was done to keep the plates as tight as possible, to allow for the snappiest of clicks upon actuation of each key. The Round 1 compact style F104 and FSSKs do not have these extra tabs. I can tell that the Round 2 boards have some extra clickiness/snappiness to them compared to the Round 1 boards, though both have sufficient clickiness/snappiness.
2. The controller tabs have been modified slightly on the M Style boards to make them simpler and a bit less flexible. Sometimes when unscrewing the controller and adjusting an old bottom inner assembly, the old tabs would move out of position which would require some pliers to move them back into position. They are also slightly taller, to allow for more room between the controller and BIA.
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Final sale on the out of production keyboards (F62 / F77 / Round 1 F104 FSSK B104 and BSSK)
Currently the keyboards are discounted about 50% or more and some now sell for less than $200. If you have been holding off joining the project due to lack of funds or because these boards were not affordable now is the time to get a new Model F or beam spring! A lot of folks who have a new Model F are picking up a spare to use at another computer or to keep for future usage.
After 8 years (doesn't time fly! Does 2015 seem a long time ago to everyone here?) these earlier projects are finally winding down. Now is the last chance to get these keyboards. Currently all variations are in stock and expected to ship within 1-4 weeks as I move through the backlog.
Once most of the stock sells out over the coming months, pricing is expected to go back up for those who want any of the final remaining boards. So far more than 4,600 Brand New Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped, with many more in the queue as we wait for the factory to wrap up production.
I also have a number of factory soldered controllers+ribbon cables+capacitive PCBs for the F62 and F77 models. If you are looking to upgrade your keyboard to have the latest USB-C controller or if you want to pick up a drop-in spare replacement please feel free to order the controller plus 30 units of the store item $1 increments which includes the PCB and factory labor costs.
And now for something completely different - a production photo I just came across of the various bottom inner assemblies for all but the Round 2 Model F boards.
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Final sale on the out of production keyboards (F62 / F77 / Round 1 F104 FSSK B104 and BSSK)
Currently the keyboards are discounted about 50% or more and some now sell for less than $200. If you have been holding off joining the project due to lack of funds or because these boards were not affordable now is the time to get a new Model F or beam spring! A lot of folks who have a new Model F are picking up a spare to use at another computer or to keep for future usage.
After 8 years (doesn't time fly! Does 2015 seem a long time ago to everyone here?) these earlier projects are finally winding down. Now is the last chance to get these keyboards. Currently all variations are in stock and expected to ship within 1-4 weeks as I move through the backlog.
Once most of the stock sells out over the coming months, pricing is expected to go back up for those who want any of the final remaining boards. So far more than 4,600 Brand New Model F and Beam Spring keyboards have shipped, with many more in the queue as we wait for the factory to wrap up production.
I also have a number of factory soldered controllers+ribbon cables+capacitive PCBs for the F62 and F77 models. If you are looking to upgrade your keyboard to have the latest USB-C controller or if you want to pick up a drop-in spare replacement please feel free to order the controller plus 30 units of the store item $1 increments which includes the PCB and factory labor costs.
And now for something completely different - a production photo I just came across of the various bottom inner assemblies for all but the Round 2 Model F boards.
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Nice photos! Glad to see some unique key setups. Speaking of pad printing:
As an update the corrected pad printing jig was just completed and the factory is now able to move to the next step to further adjust the custom-made pad printing machine for this pad printing. The process has taken far longer than expected. The first jig had some errors and had to be redesigned. As always please do sign the interest form to reserve your pad printed set. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1873Q9wJFyNvJ4-TEBN6P9JbzaVxErbNd-h4XtN1DfNk
We are still not decided on UV coating vs uncoated for the pad printing. I think the uncoated looks nicer and closer to the IBM originals but the UV coating may add some extra longevity to the keys which of course wear down with usage.
Haven't been using the ergo board but I have been using the F15. Absolutely love it. Needed to make some adjustments when I first got it- the entire interior of the board was set slightly too high up in the case, such that the number row keys couldn't fit next to the metal piece between the number rows and the F keys; managed to make it work. I have the Large bumpers on the interior sides and the small square ones on the exterior, so there's a total rise of 7/8" from outside to inside- just about perfect for me. Debating getting another one for work, but I use a mac at work and would presumably need to install Karabiner due to the weird Mac stuff with split keyboards (for those who haven't followed on Deskthority, Macs treat modifier keys from different keyboards completely separately, so Shift on the left keyboard + a letter on the right keyboard still gives a lower case letter and vice versa). I probably could do that, just trying to figure out how I feel about it. I'll likely pick up a separate numberpad for the rare occasions I need one, but the F50 is complete overkill for my use case so I'll be looking elsewhere for that.
I have just approved production and assembly of the F122 inner assembly, so now the F122 can proceed to completion.
Below are the first photos of the approved F122 keyboard!
The F122 was a trickier PCB design. Once again a big thanks to forum member wcass (the designer of the PCBs for the capacitive projects) for this huge undertaking. There was an issue where a via was too close to a key pad, which resulted in a higher signal level only for that key. wcass updated the PCB by moving the via away from the key and rearranging some of the column ordering to facilitate placement of that via.
Rico expects to have a firmware update ready in the next few days but testing with the old firmware and my testing has shown no issues with some keys being high value. Rico also came up with a workaround to add a bin for such keys, just in case the PCB could not be adjusted to put the outlier key in line with the other keys' signals.
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For all new F and beam models, the controller has a USB-C connector so you can detach the cable from the inside. You can always get a USB-C patch extension cable if you want easy detachability.