Yogitype inverted keyboard... has anyone tried it?

[sordna]

Looks interesting:
http://www.yogitype.com/en/
(above website includes a video)

[digitalleftovers]

It reminds me of the keyboard with the mirrors at the center top of this picture: (from webwit's collection)

[sordna]

Yes, that's the SafeType vertical keyboard. The Yogitype seems much better thought out, so I'm wondering if anyone has tried it and what the key switches feel like.

[Findecanor]

The web site seems to have buckled under the load ...
Luckily, there is also a video on Youtube (also in German and Dutch, I think):

The keyboard in the video looks like it has low-profile scissor switches.
It is not hard to see that the prototype keyboard in the image above has PCB-mounted Cherry MX switches.

[milh_cbt]

interesting, but 550 euro is alot of money for a keyboard.

[digitalleftovers]

Despite the price, I think this product falls into the "if you need it, you NEED it" category.  For people with limited range of motion and RSI issues, I would hope that insurance would cover part of the cost.

[Lanx]

is it mechanical? the prototype looks like it uses some kind of mech switch (looks like cherry , wouldn't be surprised if it's cherry brown for obvious ergo reasons). Looks nice, i like the lighted up idea, better than the dorky mirrors for sure.

[sordna]

What I like about it is the arm rests, and that it seems much less staggered than the SafeType which is ridiculously staggered. This asymmetry makes me sick:

 

it boggles my mind why 99.9% of the keyboards today, including supposedly ergonomic ones, still carry this horrendous artifact of the old pushrod typewriters.

[Input Nirvana]

it boggles my mind why 99.9% of the keyboards today, including supposedly ergonomic ones, still carry this horrendous artifact of the old pushrod typewriters.

sordna- Seriously, you sound like webwit. lol "webwit II" This is a compliment.

[appie747]

What I like about it is the arm rests, and that it seems much less staggered than the SafeType which is ridiculously staggered. This asymmetry makes me sick:

it boggles my mind why 99.9% of the keyboards today, including supposedly ergonomic ones, still carry this horrendous artifact of the old pushrod typewriters.

I completely agree!  But when you look closely at the YogiType video, the right hand has staggered keys, but on the left side the 2nd, 3rd and 4th row are matrix! A sort of compromise I think. I would suggest to do matrix on both sides, why should there be a difference for right and left hand??
Maybe a commercial reason? But then again: If you need one,  you are already looking for the best ergo solotion.

By the way: it's Dutch!

[Brodie337]

One cool thing about this is the thumb mouse. Do want.

[Forsaken]

I completely agree!  But when you look closely at the YogiType video, the right hand has staggered keys, but on the left side the 2nd, 3rd and 4th row are matrix! A sort of compromise I think. I would suggest to do matrix on both sides, why should there be a difference for right and left hand??
Maybe a commercial reason? But then again: If you need one,  you are already looking for the best ergo solotion.

By the way: it's Dutch!

You're right, it looks like only three rows of the left are matrix, and the entire right hand is staggered. How strange!

[bluecar5556]

Strange indeed, some things are better left not understood but it's still bugs me.  Pasted from their website, "What users say from the Yogitype;
‘With this keyboard I learned touch-typing very quickly.’
‘With this keyboard I cannot write a ‘nasty’ email.’
‘My endurance bears fruits now because it goes wonderfully. I am completely rid of my complaints.’

You would think it would be easier to touch type on a keyboard that one cannot 'cheat' on.  Not sure what the 'nasty email' is referring to?  Other than possible size constraints with keyboard trays and a view obstruction depending on how low the monitor is in relation to the 'board that can be easily remedied, I dig it.  After all, it is also marketed for a niche market of RSI patients or people with RSI symptoms and want to take the plunge considering the price tag.  Any word on the switch type?

Edit:  Is it Christmas every time the the room is dark? The vid never mentioned if there is a switch so the random blinking is not distracting while typing.

[hoggy]

You're right, it looks like only three rows of the left are matrix, and the entire right hand is staggered. How strange!

Show Image

I suppose it's because the traditional stagger for the left hand makes no ergonomic sense, but it's not a problem for the right hand.  The designer(s) probably thought losing the stagger on the left was worthwhile, but doing the same for the right might just make the too difficult for new users.  Personally, I think they should have lost the stagger on both sides - oh, and kept with cherries as per the prototype...

+1 on the thumb mouse!

[sordna]

I made an experiment with 2 Kinesis keyboards (vertical columns / no stagger) propped vertically, to simulate a vertical keyboard.
I was able to type almost at my regular WPM, with hardly any errors. I also own a Comfort Keyboard system (the one with the wonky base that lets you configure the keyboard halves to any position) and I got tons of errors, from both sides, in the vertical position.
Bottom line: staggering sucks, period. I can't believe most modern keyboards still carry that trait over from the mech typewriters of the late 1800's. It's truly ridiculous.

[hoggy]

I made an experiment with 2 Kinesis keyboards (vertical columns / no stagger) propped vertically, to simulate a vertical keyboard.
I was able to type almost at my regular WPM, with hardly any errors. I also own a Comfort Keyboard system (the one with the wonky base that lets you configure the keyboard halves to any position) and I got tons of errors, from both sides, in the vertical position.
Bottom line: staggering sucks, period. I can't believe most modern keyboards still carry that trait over from the mech typewriters of the late 1800's. It's truly ridiculous.

I tried the same with my comfort board - hated it enough to put it back in it's box and store it away.

[Findecanor]

Bottom line: staggering sucks, period. I can't believe most modern keyboards still carry that trait over from the mech typewriters of the late 1800's. It's truly ridiculous.

I disagree. Assymetric staggering a'la QWERTY works for the right hand middle, ring and pinky fingers. The right index finger is more limber, and that makes it able to cope better. Therefore, what QWERTY-staggering really is, is right-hand centric.

BTW, If you compare staggering with the flat curved layout used for the Burboa typewriter, flat Maltron, japanese M-system etc, then you will find a weird similarity: The offset between the middle finger and pinky columns is the same as on right-hand QWERTY!

[sordna]

Staggering generally sucks, but yes, it does help the right hand. However an angled matrix layout is much much better:



It makes way more sense to angle the key columns rather than stagger them.

[The Solutor]

I can't believe most modern keyboards still carry that trait over from the mech typewriters of the late 1800's. It's truly ridiculous.

We use English, and not Esperanto or Interlingua to communicate across countries, not because is the best language in the world but because is a shared standard.

With few exceptions no one want to learn a new language for this purpose, even if way easier to learn, even if more consistent to spell.

The same happens with keyboards, I can learn Colamac or Dvorak, one can start to use funky designs, but this is useless when one goes to the office and have to face a standard qwerty board. This kind of improvements are hill fated no matter how good are.

[sordna]

Getting rid of staggering (not talking about dvorak etc) is really not hard getting used to at all. It just takes a day or two at most.

Just like we went from amphitheater-arranged rows in old typewriters to flat keyboards of today, manufacturers could reduce the stagger by half a milimeter every year, and eventually get rid of it :-)

[Findecanor]

Show Image

It makes way more sense to angle the key columns rather than stagger them.

For that to work, there needs to be enough offset between columns and enough angle and/or hand-separation. The TE has neither! Therefore, I think that it is worse than QWERTY. Not as bad as a pure matrix layout though.

[sordna]

I'm not saying the TE is the best implementation of this, I'm just illustrating the concept. A Kinesis (with the bowl shape and big separation) is too different to illustrate the point that angling the columns makes more sense than the silly zig-zag staggered layout we've been stuck with since the late 1800's, which was devised because of the pushrods of the first typewriters. Even the TE, has much better left hand positioning than a standard QWERTY keyboard.

[The Solutor]

Getting rid of staggering (not talking about dvorak etc) is really not hard getting used to at all. It just takes a day or two at most.

 
Yes, but the point is not to getting used to something new, more comfortable, the point is that when you have to face the older designs you start to want to commit a suicide, or an homicide.

I remember when I' got my first wheel mouse, when I had to use the standard mice from client's PC i wanted to kill someone.

Those improvements are nice for a developer used to use his own PC the 99% of the time, but when one works for a company, a bank, whatever and have to use a basic keyboard 8 h a day is hard to go back and forth.

[Input Nirvana]

Staggering generally sucks, but yes, it does help the right hand. However an angled matrix layout is much much better:

Show Image

It makes way more sense to angle the key columns rather than stagger them.

And they did a nice job Photoshopping a copy of Maltrons 2D keyboard...angled and staggered rows, but not enough separation though. Oh well, they can Photoshop an improved picture someday.

[bluecar5556]

Would you agree the main purpose of our hands are to grasp objects?  Keeping that in mind, imagine your fingers resting on the home row with a non-staggered keyboard.  To reach the top row you simply relax the hands and make a subtle gripping gesture for the bottom keys without any lateral finger movement.  When one attempts this on a staggered keyboard, pulling the fingers straight down without compensating for nonparallel arms from left/right hand spacing not being shoulder width, the home row keys on most traditional keyboards are aligned to the dead center of two keys on the bottom row forcing one to move their fingers laterally.  Agreed, TrulyErgonomic key columns are inline to the intersecting arms and looks like a good layout.

[Input Nirvana]

 Agreed, TrulyErgonomic key columns are inline to the intersecting arms and looks like a good layout.

First, you finger science is good.
 
But buddy, I gotta throw this in the mix:  (not derailing or trolling, just adding)

THE PHOTOSHOP RENDERING/ONE AND ONLY PROTOTYPE of the TrulyErgonomic key columns are inline to the intersecting arms and looks like a good layout.

The ACTUAL Maltron key columns are inline to the intersecting arms and looks like a good layout.

My point being that TE is not inventing or designing anything new.
It exists already and TE has done a deplorable job with whatever they may/may not be trying to do.
The overall spirit of the layout is pretty good, it should be, it's been done successfully by another company for years.
It's not the layout (much) that separates the proposed TE, it's the conventional construction and price.

The most buzz TE has gotten on the web is here on Geekhack, which is a testimony to Geekhacks power and influence.

About half of what I just said is relevant, the other half, forgive me, for I have sinned.

[hoggy]

I want them to ditch the current keyboard and start making keyboards that look like that prototype.  The prototype looks fab!

Actually, they can keep making the current version - that's their choice (bless).


Edit - It isn't clear, but I meant the yogitype prototype...

[leblonk]

I have used the Yogitype. Mixed results. Learning to use it was surprisingly easy. Same muscle memory as regular keyboard, and the LEDs on the visible side help. Biggest problem I found was that to use it effectively, you have to rest your wrists on the small pads. For me, this caused more discomfort than the more natural wrist angle resolved. The built-on mouse paddles were not working well for me. Too much movement concentrated on just the thumb, while still having two different hand positions, one for keying and one for mousing.
YMMV, my hands were already pretty bad when I tried using this keyboard.

[bluecar5556]

Welcome to geekhack, leblonk.  If you still have the keyboard, can you pop off a key and take a pic? It's about time someone reviewed the yogitype, thank you for your contribution.

[leblonk]

It's currently lent out to a friend who broke his wrists recently. If it doesn't work for him and I get it back, then I will.

[hoggy]

It's currently lent out to a friend who broke his wrists recently. If it doesn't work for him and I get it back, then I will.

Perhaps your friend could do the review if he doesn't want to give it back in a hurry.

[Playtrumpet]

This looks like a difficult keyboard to RipOmeter under operating conditions.

Hah.

I'll stay skeptical about this until someone reports back having done some extensive testing on its proposed benefits. There are the wrist rests, but the typist is still working with gravity pushing their hands and fingers down and inward.

I never like commercials that mention the "extensive scientific research" that has been done to help sell their product. I'm always left feeling all that much more suspicious not having gotten to hear an elaboration or explanation of the actual research..

[leblonk]

I got the keyboard back. My friend did not think it made any significant difference for him.
Here are some closeups of the key mechanism.

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[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24805[/ATTACH]

I measured the key force needed, and it's about 80gr down and 35gr up with a very definite initial force needed. The keys do not feel mushy at all. Comparing that to my current recent-version Gold Touch of 50gr down/35gr up, that's a bit heavier than needed probably.

[The Solutor]

It's a bog standard scissor switch.  Like a Thinkpad.

Only The n1 Ingnorant on the planet can consider a standard scissor the thinkpad's keyboard.

And the one in the photo is way different than the thinkpad scissors

[Yogitype Inventor]

interesting, but 550 euro is alot of money for a keyboard.

Recently the selling price has been lowered to 299 Euro (including VAT)

[Yogitype Inventor]

Why staggered keys on the Yogitype?
The relative key positioning is choosen in such a way that you can work with your finger memory that you have learned on ‘standard horizontal keyboards’. Because of the weird positioning of the standard keyboards (especially if you jump below and above the home row) we had to compensate for that especially in relation to the vertical / backwards inclination of the Yogitype. As an end result you see that right- and the left hand plane do not completely mirror each other but we found out after building many prototypes that this position is most comfortable and most easy to get quickly up to your ‘standard’ typing speed again.
Also the fact that the end product preferably should be compact/small and that the keys of the homerow on both planes have to be on the same height, so that the users sits in a balanced way, played a role in the design of this.

[metalliqaz]

I don't see how this thing could possibly be comfortable or ergonomic.  The natural position of my hands is not thumbs-up-fingers-out.  It's palms-down-fingers-in.

[jwaz]

My hands want to sit between a controller like grip and a flat standard typing posture, so I'd think somewhere in between would be ideal but the only way you'd really know is to put it into practice. Give us a demo unit to try-and-forward!

I like the almost analog stick pointing functionality, really makes sense for the device shape.


Any functionality for alternative layout users? I could probably relearn qwerty fairly easily but...

[Yogitype Inventor]

W.r.t. the positioning of the hands I can tell you that this design is deleberately made to have the fingertips facing eachother (thumbs up). In actual fact the idea comes from the lotus posture (Yoga). The inspiration came when reading a book about yoga which explained why people where using this position to meditate. When bringing the fingers towards eachother you have a much more neutral position of your wrists. But an even more important effect is achieved in your shoulder / neck area because you are more bring your shoulderblades together which helps you to sit up straight more easily. This will give less fatique and an improved bloodflow to and from the hands and arms.

The Yogitype comes in many layouts. If required these can be made on demand as this can be changed easily with two printed inserts at the inside surfaces of the two planes.

[mkawa]

I don't see how this thing could possibly be comfortable or ergonomic.  The natural position of my hands is not thumbs-up-fingers-out.  It's palms-down-fingers-in.

really? this is the same thing as the handshake position that human factors people really like. according to them, this is actually the neutral position of one's forearms. interesting that you don't think so. always good to remember that everyone's body is different!

[mkawa]

W.r.t. the positioning of the hands I can tell you that this design is deleberately made to have the fingertips facing eachother (thumbs up). In actual fact the idea comes from the lotus posture (Yoga). The inspiration came when reading a book about yoga which explained why people where using this position to meditate. When bringing the fingers towards eachother you have a much more neutral position of your wrists. But an even more important effect is achieved in your shoulder / neck area because you are more bring your shoulderblades together which helps you to sit up straight more easily. This will give less fatique and an improved bloodflow to and from the hands and arms.

The Yogitype comes in many layouts. If required these can be made on demand as this can be changed easily with two printed inserts at the inside surfaces of the two planes.

welcome to the forum, sir or ma'am! this is a very cool idea. what i really like about it is that, like the lotus posture, bringing the pinkies in engages the back muscles and pushes the shoulder blades together, which is crucial for causing the core to engage. too many chairs and boards don't encourage good use of the core muscle groups, which causes problems down every extremity over long periods of time. very cool!

[mkawa]

can anyone confirm whether the kinesis freestyle allows for this position? the key (lol) is that the pinkies are brought inward and the thumbs out

[Oobly]

Interesting. I find around 45 degrees to be a good natural resting position for my hands (and it happens to be about the middle of the mechanical extremes, too, which makes sense to me). My fingers rest curled and vertically staggered, with my thumb tip a little to the side of my index finger tip and roughly in the same horizontal plane (when my hands are held in front of me, as when typing). My wrists have a very slight downward inclination.

I think the ideal for me is something like my current design, but with a slightly steeper tenting angle. The thumb is raised too much and the hands tented too much on this design for me to find it ergonomic. We're all built a little differently, though, so this may work for others.

[hoggy]

can anyone confirm whether the kinesis freestyle allows for this position? the key (lol) is that the pinkies are brought inward and the thumbs out

I think you would have to build your own frame to support the two halves.  If you were to do that, you could build one for two Access AKC090s instead...