Ergonomic brainstorm

[Input Nirvana]

I was thinking today about the palm switches Input Nirvana, Sordna and I think Lanx added to their Kinesis's.  More keyboards should have them.

The palm switches are a huge WIN, but obviously only certain keyboard configurations can have them. As a note...even if not ADDING additional key actions to a (Kinesis), then the goal could be to reduce weak finger reaches, by using the palm switches. I tried this and it was so good that when I went back to "normal" after a week, my pinkies were not very useful.  LOL

[Tiramisuu]

http://stenoboard.com

ergonomic 200 plus wpm

Runs w/ plover under Windows Mac or Linux.
Successfully used with vim
I  am trying to use it with emacs this week but am having a couple of challenges w functions that take arguments.

C-u 5 a 
results in some funny
Used within the editor context it seems pretty darn amazing.

[jacobolus]

http://stenoboard.com

I think these guys have a much better design:
http://stenosaurus.blogspot.com

[tufty]

http://stenoboard.com

I think these guys have a much better design:
http://stenosaurus.blogspot.com

I'm not so sure.  That design looks like a bunch of fat aluminium spacebars balanced precariously on keyswitches, with no stabilisers 

[jacobolus]

I'm not so sure.  That design looks like a bunch of fat aluminium spacebars balanced precariously on keyswitches, with no stabilisers

Huh? These keycaps are no larger than about 1.5u, they just have no “skirts”. They should work just fine.

They might get a slightly better result by orienting the switches the other way though.

[Tiramisuu]

While stenosaurus is certainly prettier, stenoboard being fully split can be set up at any angle on a tripod for correct height and changing angle.

The professional versions of these are about $5000 and allow a stenographer to do real time transcription for many hours 

http://www.infinitytraditional.com/infinity-ergonomic-court-w-lcd/

[OldDataHands]

Just for fun. No need to justify ideas.

What do you think is missing from the products available (or even projects in development)?

To provide a context to get us started - combinations.

I'm thinking I'd love a tkl with a built in roller mouse...

this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg1509793#msg1509793

and some time ago in this thread the DataHand thumb switches were mentioned: I have never noticed any strain or tired sensation in my thumbs from their use. low force, short travel, nice to use.

[Tiramisuu]

Just for fun. No need to justify ideas.

What do you think is missing from the products available (or even projects in development)?

To provide a context to get us started - combinations.

I'm thinking I'd love a tkl with a built in roller mouse...

this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg1509793#msg1509793

and some time ago in this thread the DataHand thumb switches were mentioned: I have never noticed any strain or tired sensation in my thumbs from their use. low force, short travel, nice to use.

 the  only  challenge I  see with this is that you can not chord with  one   finger

[OldDataHands]

the  only  challenge I  see with this is that you can not chord with  one   finger

not sure I follow you... do you mean that one finger is on the trackball? Are you referring to my first prototype?

In case that link didn't take you to the right spot, pics also here:
 https://github.com/Henry/TrackHand

[yasuo]

While stenosaurus is certainly prettier, stenoboard being fully split can be set up at any angle on a tripod for correct height and changing angle.

The professional versions of these are about $5000 and allow a stenographer to do real time transcription for many hours 

http://www.infinitytraditional.com/infinity-ergonomic-court-w-lcd/

Show Image

i like which with split mirabai knight you use it

[islisis]

How about touch sensitive keycaps?

I think these would be ideal for modifier keys, so that when used in combination with normal mechanical target keys the total chord activation force is reduced by half, or more. Accidental presses would be less of an issue here as nothing should happen unless a physical key is simultaneously depressed.

They would be ideal for dual-role keys, as a key's touch function can be independent of the physical one. More ergonomic than palm keys. Would also be great on sections of mice buttons, for page scrolling and rocker chords.

Could save a lot of stress on pinkies and thumbs.

edit: emphasis on modkey usage

[jacobolus]

How about touch sensitive keycaps? I think these would be ideal for modifier chords, to reduce activation stress by half.

Can you explain a bit more of how you’re imagining this to work?

[islisis]

My idea is this:

The disadvantage of touch input is in registering single activations, which in turn mechanical keys are most suited to.

A touch-modkey hold followed by a normal mechanical key depress limits activation force to the moment of execution only, rather than the duration of the combo. This is why the stress is reduced by at least half.

Because the modkey will be usually guaranteed to be invoked before the target key, and the inaccuracy of touch activation timing is mitigated. Its invocation is closer to a gesture, and should be useful for one and two-handed chords (just try it out by touching one shift key with the pinky while pressing a letter key).

[jacobolus]

The part I don’t understand is what you’re physically proposing. Like, if I want to make an '&' character appear, or quit my browser with a keyboard shortcut, what physical motions do my hands need to do?

Are you just saying we should use capacitive touch surfaces for modifier keys, but use standard mechanical switches for the rest of the keys?

By the way, it’s not quite what you’re proposing, but you should try out the Fingerworks Touchstream keyboard if you ever get the chance. (Fingerworks was the company that developed the multitouch IP that Apple used in the first iPhone, so Touchstream keyboards have been unavailable for the past ~8 years, and are now extremely expensive. But you can probably still find someone who has one and try it out.

[islisis]

Yep, I think it would be only the modifier keys worth modding to somehow register touch, giving them the option of dual-input function. Sorry, just edited the first paragraph to actually state this!

So for instance on a standard layout, move the left pinky to touch the shift key surface and hold, while depressing the 7 mechanical key normally. The pinky motion acts like a momentary gesture for the shift layer, with low-strain.

Thanks, I'm actually an opponent of touch keyboards in their common context, but the above functionality is the one exception I believe would be quite useful for typing and command calls. Moreso than swipes and other gestures for my usage anyhow.

[Liar]

To help new users of ergonomic keyboards where the key caps are not easily seen (or as a transition from one layout to another), how about key caps whose legends are either Relief or Engraved to provide tactile feedback to the user.  You know you are on the home keys because you can feel the F and J letters as opposed to a Bump, Dip, Nub, etc.

My only worry is that pressing keys with legends in Relief may cause irritation to the finger tips after some time (although anecdotal, the pronounced Dashes on the lowered F and J on this Noppo Choc Mini have not caused any problems for myself, even after heavy use [I use RDFG as my movement keys in games as opposed to WASD, so I can pinky A for jumping])

(Edit: English'd)

[Findecanor]

There are QWERTY keyboards with legends for Braille. I think there exist Braille stickers also. Why don't you get a set and try it out to test your hypothesis? Run with QWERTY for a couple of weeks with stickers, then change to a new layout and try it with stickers in the new layout.
Myself I am not so sure that it would be any benefit for fast typists, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

[Oobly]

I agree that braille would be much better than the normal legends for tactile sensing of the letters since it's really hard to determine letter shape with the fingertips since individual bumps are easier to "read".

Kind of defeats the proposed purpose, though, since you then have to learn braille before learning to use your ergonomic keyboard.

Besides, for the better designed ergonomic boards the physical layout is easy to get used to, but revised character layouts (AdNW, Neo, Colemak, Dvorak, etc) take longer.

Thinking about it for a bit, having raised legends / bumps probably will only help right at the beginning of learning a layout, since when the speed goes up, I doubt you'll be able to sense the individual letters. For instance, if you watch someone reading braille, they trail from one letter to the next, they spend some time on each individual letter and usually use at least one other finger to confirm the letters they have just read.

In most cases it's enough to have a printed chart of the layout and an easily accessible backspace key to undo any incorrect letters.