Author Topic: Maltron Programmers K/B L89P (Read 32751 times)

Proword · « **on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 06:47:10 »

Found this pic on the web yesterday.

Has anybody actually seen a real one, or even better used one?

And any ideas about the key marked "K42"?

Joe

sordna · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 20:54:59 »

Your best bet would be to send Maltron an email about it!
By the way, I've been trying to find pictures of the Maltron 3D keyboards from different angles. Specifically, I'd like to see horizontal shots from the front and from the side that show the keyboard's profile, something like these photos of a (beat up) kinesis. I want to compare the hand angles (pronation etc) of the maltron to the kinesis, so the photos have to be taken almost from the level as the surface the keyboard sits on. Could you please help? Thanks much in advance!

Proword · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 21:02:53 »

Thanks for that. I was going to send an email but I thought I'd wait until Easter was over and try the "local" resources first.

Re the photos, if you like I can do some pics for you of one of my Maltrons. My latest keyboard is barely used (it's my "backup-backup") so if you'll give me an idea of which angles you'd like the photos from I'll see what I can do for you.

Joe

sordna · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 21:06:24 »

I just added some example pics of my first Kinesis (got it in 2004) still with original palm rest pads :-)

Proword · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 21:48:26 »

Here are some "web cam" piccies from different angles.

As my "Backup-backup" I don't use this at all (except for a "test drive" when it arrived).

It's Dual engraved cap, with the larger letters being for QWERTY. The switch is actually underneath, not on the keyboard face..

It has a USB plug.

According to the handbook it's also Mac friendly.

The two keys with paper cap label was because they didn't have the proper ones in stock, but they offered to send me the right ones, but I didn't bother.

This link explains the differences between L90 and L89 (this is an L89).
http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/differences-between-89-a-90-series-keyboards.html

Joe

sordna · « **Reply #5 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 22:10:14 »

Oh, many thanks! This photo (I resized/rotated it with gimp) shows that the Maltron has more generous anti-pronation angle than the Kinesis, and the thumb key sections especially are even more angled.

Proword · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 22:25:59 »

Since I had to get it out of the box to photograph it, I thought I'd take my backup for a bit of a canter, and something that I'd never noticed previously. You can JUST see it in the photo you posted, the palm rest is cupped very slightly to take the ball of the palm. All my other ones are flat, but I've glued high density foam (camping mat) there, because, despite what the book says, I ALWAYS rest my hands, just using the fingers. (My hand size means that, other than the numeric keypad, I can reach every key, except, F1, F6, F7 and F12 without moving my hands from the home row.) On the backup the palm rests appear to be about an inch or so deeper as well.

sordna · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 22:31:44 »

Yes, I think the Maltron has slightly more comfortable hand placement. Too bad it comes with black cherries and isn't programmable. By the way, have you ever tried a Kinesis? If so, how would you compare the two?

Proword · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 22:46:22 »

I started using the Maltron in 1986. Kinesis seemed to be trying to reproduce the Maltron, but couldn't use the Malt layout, and since I was then quite convinced of the value of the Malt layout above anything else (for my own work), by the time Kinesis came on the market (1990?) I didn't see any need to go anywhere else.

My work requires me to transcribe audio at the speed of speech (usually 150-180 wpm) and so that's the limit on how fast I type.

This video I made a couple of weeks ago shows me transcribing with the Maltron, but using keyboard shorthand, based on WordPerfect.

[video=youtube;pYJtF1I3PRs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYJtF1I3PRs[/video]

I've never had any issue with the keyswitches, so I can't say whether the black are better or worse than anything else.

Joe

ironman31 · « **Reply #9 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 22:56:14 »

I need to try a Maltron.

Proword · « **Reply #10 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 23:05:55 »

If you lived in the UK apparently you could hire one, and if you decided to buy it the rental would come off the price.

http://www.maltron.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=219&Itemid=103#usa

shows there are two agents in the USA, but whether they would be prepared to hire keyboards is something I couldn't comment on.

Joe

Joe

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 23:22:51 »

Quote from: sordna;335275

Yes, I think the Maltron has slightly more comfortable hand placement. Too bad it comes with black cherries and isn't programmable. By the way, have you ever tried a Kinesis? If so, how would you compare the two?

I agree.....

Noctua indicated he purchased a 3D shell (case only) from Maltron and the price seemed reasonable. I would be interested in purchasing a case only, splitting it in half, and using PCB and firmware info that is available here at GH. (Humblehacker info).

sordna · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 23:52:44 »

Quote from: ironman31;335289

I need to try a Maltron.

Well, if you haven't already, I would suggest to try a Kinesis first since you are in the US, as it's less than half the price, and way easier to find. I have tried both and they are actually very similar. Most notable difference during usage (apart from what you see in the photos) is the switches, MX browns (soft, tactile) on the Kinesis vs blacks (heavier, linear) on the Maltron.

ironman31 · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 21 April 2011, 23:54:59 »

Quote from: sordna;335316

Most notable difference during usage (apart from what you see in the photos) is the switches, MX browns (soft, tactile) on the Kinesis vs blacks (heavier, linear) on the Maltron.

Yeah, if I ever ended up getting a Maltron, I'd most likely immediately convert it to browns.

sordna · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 00:02:59 »

I've a friend who used a maltron for years, and switched to a Kinesis after trying it, just because of the browns! However myself, I want even lighter switches than browns, which is why I suggested to Kinesis they offer an option with MX reds (soft, linear) and in fact they ordered them and will be making a batch! The kinesis has a neat configurable audible click via a little speaker, so even with linear switches you can get feedback as to when the switch registers. It works, because I bottom out more when I turn the sound off!

ironman31 · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 00:05:37 »

I don't know if I would like the sound without any tactile feedback if I were going to use reds.

Question: Know anything about the Kinesis Essential?

sordna · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 00:16:23 »

The Essential is an older PS/2 version, which, IIRC is programmable but doesn't have on-board memory like the Classic or the Advantage, so any programming is lost when you turn the power off. Other than that, the Essential has the exact same layout/geometry/switches and audible speaker as all the others.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 00:40:22 »

Quote from: sordna;335329

The Essential is an older PS/2 version, which, IIRC is programmable but doesn't have on-board memory like the Classic or the Advantage, so any programming is lost when you turn the power off. Other than that, the Essential has the exact same layout/geometry/switches and audible speaker as all the others.

I still have an Essential, you can't re-map or program macros, the only programming you can do is for some of the settings (audible clicks, etc.) and even that gets wiped out if it's unplugged. You can add one or two memory modules to make it into a Classic/Professional. The Advantage and Advantage Pro are USB models with one and two memory modules respectively.

The keyboards are exactly the same other than those differences mentioned.

ironman31 · « **Reply #18 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 06:21:19 »

Has anyone tried the blue cube on an essential?

Findecanor · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 07:49:27 »

I have never tried any of these myself, and would very much like to.

Quote from: sordna;335225

I want to compare the hand angles (pronation etc) of the maltron to the kinesis

This paper on Maltron's web site states that the pronation angle is 15° for the three outer fingers and 20° for the index finger. There is also a graph that shows it. You will have to scroll down a bit, because first it covers the early versions that did not adjust for pronation.

Are the major keys on the Kinesis also angled like this? It appears to me as if the keys are angled differently for each finger, with the pinky and ring finger keys not angled at all.

I have read that the finger-keys on the Maltron are more comfortably placed than on the Kinesis, but that the thumb keys on the Kinesis are better angled. Anyone who have tried both?

ironman31 · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 07:54:44 »

I was watching a youtube video of a woman using a maltron and the legends on the keys were worn to no return. Never understood why a lot of expensive keyboards don't decide to ise high quality keys

sordna · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 10:00:32 »

Quote from: Findecanor;335411

Are the major keys on the Kinesis also angled like this? It appears to me as if the keys are angled differently for each finger, with the pinky and ring finger keys not angled at all.

They are angled almost the same as the maltron (just very slightly less). Even the pinky keys are angled (but less that the index finger keys). Here's a random pic off the net that shows this clearly:

Quote from: Findecanor;335411

I have read that the finger-keys on the Maltron are more comfortably placed than on the Kinesis, but that the thumb keys on the Kinesis are better angled. Anyone who have tried both?

I think the finger keys are about the same. As for the thumb keys, I think on the kinesis they are a bit too flat and on the maltron they are way too angled. Something in between would be perfect for me.

IRONMAN31: I just tried the bluecube on my kinesis classic, it works fine, except the on-keyboard repeat rate adjustment doesn't seem to work. However you can still adjust that from the OS. But programmability, dvorak switching, etc works. If you find a used essential for under $100 I'd say go for it, if it's more, better get a new Advantage USB.

Multiple · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 11:20:09 »

Programmers [...] keyboard?

Still looks like one would need a knuckle-bender to type {}[]()<>/\#:;+"~^|'&=*_-%@!

There are no keyboards for programmers...

sordna · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 11:30:14 »

I'm a programmer and used to the Kinesis, which by the way has a 2nd "number pad" layer. When you activate that layer (via a button or footswitch) you have a whole new keyboard to remap, so you can put all these keys even in the home row, you can put function keys where the numbers are, etc. So you can make it a programmer's layer and switch back and forth on the fly.

Jim66 · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 11:45:25 »

Hmmm well I have been using a Kinesis advantage for a little over two weeks now and the layout is just about starting to make sense to my fingers.. I would like to see how what a Maltron feels like.

.... That price tag though... Wow.

Multiple · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 12:05:41 »

I think the numbers should be where the function keys are, function keys are useless and can be replaced by CTRL-... or anything else. Symbols ought to be placed with symmetry on the number row, with no modifiers to be used. Certainly the most common symbols should not be bound to right pinky (and left pinky-shift!), it couldn't be any worse than that.

Using a foot switch and place symbols on the home row sounds like an interesting solution though.

---
Edit: I placed an order for a Maltron 3D - "programmers version as I see it", with a layout looking like this:

No modifiers needed, shift is only for upper case, some adjustments is probably needed (shift might be better placed under a thumb), should be a start though.

As long as they can provide a keyboard without black switches (brown, white, blue, red, etc are fine) I'll put this to test.. (picture is missing ? in upper right corner, but this is the "gist" of it)

ricercar · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 14:31:27 »

Quote from: ironman31;335397

Has anyone tried the blue cube on an essential?

Yes, Typing on one now. Questions? All programmability seems fine, no repeat rate glitchinggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg. ;-)

ironman31 · « **Reply #27 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 14:41:27 »

Quote from: sordna;335471

They are angled almost the same as the maltron (just very slightly less). Even the pinky keys are angled (but less that the index finger keys). Here's a random pic off the net that shows this clearly:

Show Image

I think the finger keys are about the same. As for the thumb keys, I think on the kinesis they are a bit too flat and on the maltron they are way too angled. Something in between would be perfect for me.

IRONMAN31: I just tried the bluecube on my kinesis classic, it works fine, except the on-keyboard repeat rate adjustment doesn't seem to work. However you can still adjust that from the OS. But programmability, dvorak switching, etc works. If you find a used essential for under $100 I'd say go for it, if it's more, better get a new Advantage USB.

I might be able to get a NIB one for a little over 150 USD. Think its a decent deal? Still would be saving over 100 USD from a new Advantage

sordna · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 16:11:02 »

$150 for an Essential? I think it's too much. I wouldn't pay more than $100 for an Essential. I have remapped several of my keys, and need 38 keypresses (I have them written down) to program it to my liking from a reset condition, so having to do this for every power down would bother me enough to justify the extra $100 (plus I prefer straight USB these days and the Advantage has a mac mode as well, it even comes with extra keycaps). Also, I recently got a second Classic, newer than mine and barely used, listed on craigs for $80. Maybe I got really lucky, but I think $150 for a lower model is too much.

grncdr · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 16:42:20 »

Quote from: input nirvana;335338

I still have an Essential, you can't re-map or program macros, the only programming you can do is for some of the settings (audible clicks, etc.) and even that gets wiped out if it's unplugged. You can add one or two memory modules to make it into a Classic/Professional. The Advantage and Advantage Pro are USB models with one and two memory modules respectively.

The keyboards are exactly the same other than those differences mentioned.

Not to drag this thread OT, but are you still selling the keyboards in your signature? I PM'ed you a while ago and got no response, but I figure it's possible you don't check PM's that often...

sordna · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 17:14:31 »

Quote from: Multiple;335558

Edit: I placed an order for a Maltron 3D - "programmers version as I see it", with a layout looking like this

Multiple, are you saying there exists a maltron with this layout, or did you place a totally custom order? If it exists, please provide pointer. If it's a custom order, please explain the procedure needed order such a thing, and what the involved extra cost is. Thanks in advance!

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #31 on:** Fri, 22 April 2011, 22:09:49 »

Quote from: grncdr;335738

Not to drag this thread OT, but are you still selling the keyboards in your signature? I PM'ed you a while ago and got no response, but I figure it's possible you don't check PM's that often...

Sorry, working out of town, I sent you a PM

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #32 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 01:27:23 »

sordna-
Do you think if the thumbkey cluster were modified on the Kinesis, a more Maltron-like feeling/improvement would be achieved? If so, I can make a change with my Split-Kinesis-Mod.

Since you've used both boards, I'd like your opinion.

sordna · « **Reply #33 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 01:39:19 »

I find pronation bothersome to my hands, so I like them rotated a bit. I used to have my Goldtouch fully tented like this:

The Kinesis does not provide this much of an angle, and part of it is that the thumb keys sit too flat. I can have my hands rotated a bit more than the keyboard halves are while I type in the key wells, but to hit the thumb keys, I have to flatten my hands. If I could adjust the thumb key position, I would raise them/rotate them toward the outer sides of the keyboard.
Now the maltron has a different problem, the thumb keys are rotated to much, so instead of being able to hit the keys with the side of the thumb, for some of the thumbkeys you have to hyperextend the thumb and push the keys with the thumb tip or nail. Proword's video shows some of this. That's why I said earlier I think the sweet spot would be in-between the Kinesis (almost horizontal) and the maltron (too angled) thumb key position. It's a pity neither of these keyboards has adjustable thumb sections, that would be a great feature!

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 02:27:46 »

Thank you for the detailed info. I have thought almost the same, but had no point of reference with the Maltron (yet).

If you hold one side of your Kinesis raising it about 10" from the desk, with the other end sitting on the desk, and one hand sitting in the keywell, does that feel about right? That allows the other hand to be in a much more pronated position. Is the thumbcluster ok then? Or is the thumbcluster too flat relative to your hand, even in that overall pronated position?

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 02:29:21 »

Thank you for the detailed info. I have thought almost the same, but had no point of reference with the Maltron (yet).

If you hold one side of your Kinesis raising it about 10" from the desk, with the other end sitting on the desk, and one hand sitting in the keywell, does that feel about right? That allows the other hand to be in a much more pronated position. Is the thumbcluster ok then? Or is the thumbcluster too flat relative to your hand, even in that overall pronated position?

sordna · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 02:37:03 »

Yup, I just lifted the left side 10" and my right hand felt really comfy in that position. Looking at the right thumb cluster, and keeping the space bar as an axis, I would rotate the cluster by lifting the Alt/PgUp/PgDn column by about an inch; that would make it much more comfortable and easy to hit the Enter and the other keys.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 02:48:30 »

I'm doing the same thing here...so you would NOT drop the Space key any lower, just raise the other side of the thumbcluster only?

sordna · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 02:59:51 »

You got me thinking... I hooked up my spare kinesis to the computer, and put both of them almost vertical leaning against each other (and tilted forward just a bit) in an extreme tented position. I'm typing this very message with 2 kinesis keyboards! (both are ps/2 but I have the second one hooked up with a bluecube on USB). If you have 2 kinesis keyboards, I suggest you try it, it's very interesting experiment, quite comfy and my WPM is almost unchanged.
It's pretty neat, all you need is 2 keyboards and duct tape. The vertical kinesis "mod". Haha. Wow, sure beats the SafeType, with the kinesis it's almost impossible to hit the wrong keys.
OMG I might keep this setup, it's awesome!

sordna · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 03:02:33 »

Yes, for sure I would not drop the space key deeper in the keyboard.
Still doing the vertical thing here, oh man it's a keeper, why didn't I think of it sooner??
Note I'm using a keyboard tray setup very low (touches my thighs) so the uber-tall setup doesn't block my screen. On the desk it surely would!

EDIT: With the almost vertical position (pronation gone), actually having the space a bit deeper might make sense after all. So you could make the edge between the enter and space bar be your rotation axis. That would drop the space bar a bit, and still raise the rest of the cluster.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 23 April 2011, 10:11:40 »

Thanks for the follow up. I have some time today, so I'll play with the thumbcluster to see about moving it. That requires a case mod I didn"t plan on. I've been trying to not Frankenstein the case, but this might be worth it. I'll add pics to my Kinesis mod page if I can get this done soon.

Multiple · « **Reply #41 on:** Sun, 24 April 2011, 12:04:55 »

I am not saying this keyboard exists, and I've basically placed an order with cherry switches other than the horrible black switch (I've tried every switch there are since I live a few blocks from a cherry retailer. The black, is by far the worse switch, the end). Since keys can be remapped in software, I would settle with an ordinary 3D Maltron given switches other than the black ones, I have however request keys to be without legend, which should be without any concern to Maltron as they display keyboards with some blank keys on their site (and the keycaps seems to be from Cherrys catalogue with legends printed by Maltron...). Of course, some keys function differently, such as those that are wired to led-diods via electronics. But as the Maltron keyboard is soldered by hand I figure this should not to be a problem.

Procedure is, well, simply sending an email about ones requirements.

I have however not received any response yet, perhaps it's because of the easter holiday, or maybe I need to speak Welsh to be taken seriously. I do not know and will have to wait a little to give any further reports.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #42 on:** Sun, 24 April 2011, 13:01:31 »

This might be the only solution to make the thumbkey cluster movable/moved:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 17621[/ATTACH]

HaaTa · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 25 April 2011, 21:27:41 »

Hmm, I should get a Kinesis or Maltron one of these days.

ironman31 · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 25 April 2011, 21:33:12 »

I'll probably be getting one this weekend when I go to Busch Gardens, if I'm able to buy one from ergobay's office in Tampa

sordna · « **Reply #45 on:** Tue, 26 April 2011, 00:10:13 »

Quote from: HaaTa;337275

Hmm, I should get a Kinesis or Maltron one of these days.

I'll swap one of my Kinesis+my Comfort Keyboard for your uTron! For me the biggest beauty of the Kinesis is that it's almost impossible to hit the wrong key. It's extremely intuitive. Except for the function keys, everything else (letters, numbers, symbols, modifiers, backspace, the arrows, etc) can be touch typed as if your brain is wired to your computer. I put 2 kinesis vertically the other day and could type away on that makeshift "vertical keyboard" without errors. There's no way I can do that with a staggered keyboard. I have the Comfort Keyboard too (adjusted more vertical than what you see below)

but it was a chore to keep the hands in the right place, and also I constantly made typing errors.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #46 on:** Tue, 26 April 2011, 01:14:34 »

Quote from: sordna;337345

Show Image

but it was a chore to keep the hands in the right place, and also I constantly made typing errors.

FYI:
A guy cut a Kinesis into 2, extended the ribbon wires with extras from Kinesis, and mounted each half onto the bottom half case of a Comfort Keyboard with the "star adjust" and mounting rack bracket.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 17658[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 17660[/ATTACH]

Jim66 · « **Reply #47 on:** Sat, 30 April 2011, 07:55:35 »

I have been using a Kinesis advantage for a few weeks now and I'm really starting to like it. With all this recent talk about Maltron two handed keyboards I started to look for one to try out.

Now I had heard some people on here saying that the build quality of the Maltron wasn't great. With this in mind, I bought one of their right-handed keyboards from ebay (nice and cheap of course).

My verdict? The Maltron looks and feels VERY hand made, but not in a good way. There is just just something about it that I can't put my finger on. I think it is the plastic and/or the way that the cut the holes in the case for the switches (some of the edges are very rough). In my opinion the Kinesis is a much better product. Yes, I know it is mass produced and the Maltron is hand built... But the Maltron is twice the price and for that reason I should be bloody perfect!!!!

The product just isn't as slick as it should be.

Sorry.

Proword · « **Reply #48 on:** Sat, 30 April 2011, 08:37:37 »

Quote from: Jim66;339479

But the Maltron is twice the price and for that reason I should be bloody perfect!!!!

The product just isn't as slick as it should be.

Sorry.

If you are concerned about value for money, I can only reiterate I bought my first one in 1986 and it's still working perfectly in 2011, and amortised over that time I defy you to buy a working keyboard for the same price on a yearly basis.

Me, I don't care about appearances. If I did, I'd be suing my parents.

It's not MEANT to look slick. It's a good case of form follows function, with no concession to the fashion conscious. As I've noted previously, the plastic case looks the way it does (wrinkled) because it reduces the amount of reflected light which can cause eyestrain. A small point you may think, but to me it's an example of just how much thought has been put into this design.

Joe

Jim66 · « **Reply #49 on:** Sat, 30 April 2011, 08:49:22 »

Quote from: Proword;339486

If you are concerned about value for money, I can only reiterate I bought my first one in 1986 and it's still working perfectly in 2011, and amortised over that time I defy you to buy a working keyboard for the same price on a yearly basis.

Me, I don't care about appearances. If I did, I'd be suing my parents.

It's not MEANT to look slick. It's a good case of form follows function, with no concession to the fashion conscious. As I've noted previously, the plastic case looks the way it does (wrinkled) because it reduces the amount of reflected light which can cause eyestrain. A small point you may think, but to me it's an example of just how much thought has been put into this design.

Joe

I guess your right. I know they are not meant to be pretty, but I can't help thinking that a little more attention to detail wouldn't have gone a miss.

Take the whole cut for the dip-switch...

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 17805[/ATTACH]

Small file would have done the job.

News:

Author Topic: Maltron Programmers K/B L89P (Read 32751 times)