Author Topic: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts  (Read 21053 times)

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Offline Photoelectric

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"Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 15:56:18 »
I have a batch of Cherry MX Blacks from a Nixdorf board for someone's keyboard build, and I was curious to see how they compare to vintage as well as "old" well-used MX Blacks, since I've had multiple batches of each along with some brand new scratchy MX Blacks.  Being someone who is very sensitive to scratchy switches, this is something I've done a lot: tinkered with various switch batches and various lubrication materials and methods to get the smoothest result possible, and I frequently compare different switch batches for my own reference.



Visually, Cherry MX Blacks made for Nixdorf keyboards have that semi-translucent milky tops that are a tad more brittle than regular black tops and less brittle than the clear non-Cherry tops from a recent group buy.  These translucent tops are a lot less transparent than the recently made non-Cherry tops.  They are a tad yellowed, I am guessing from age.





At the same time, the clear tops on the "Nixdorf" switches also vary among themselves: some are more transparent and others are more milky





The spring inside these witches is either silver or faded bronze-gold toned.  So far, it seems that the more transparent versions have silver springs while the more opaque have gold.  The metal leaf part is faded gold.



Now on to the "feels".

Having read about the legendary smoothness of Nixdorf Blacks, I expected them to be much smoother than vintage and old Blacks.  Unfortunately, that is not the case with the batch I have in front of me.  Yes, they are very smooth vs. any brand new and somewhat used switches, but my batch of vintage MX Blacks from WYSE terminal boards that whiskytango took apart was about as smooth.  I also have a lot of his "old" MX Blacks (same age, I believe, and from the same boards, but with the more recent small Cherry logo) in front of me as well, and they are also very very smooth. I can't really tell the difference in smoothness trying switches at random from the Nixdorf bag and from the old MX Blacks bag--some are more scratchy and some are butter smooth. 

Just like there's some difference between individual "Old" and "Vintage" MX Blacks--some are smoother, some have a bit of gritty friction, some are in-between: same with these Nixdorf switches.  Some are buttery smooth and some are a tad more gritty.  I believe this is due to where each switch was mounted on a keyboard and how much it was used.  In other words, something like an "A" switch should be very smooth where a "print screen" switch would be on the less smoothed out side.  I should note that I've also had less-than-smooth "vintage" (large logo) MX Blacks that came with my LZ-GH, and I am convinced that there's a large degree of variation between batches: new and old.  So everyone's experience will differ based on what they happen to have.

With that said, these "Nixdorf" MX Blacks are very nice switches, and the translucent cover will be a nice bonus for LED backlighting.  Other than that, I don't believe there's a difference in smoothness, batch variation aside (it's equal for every Cherry switch type), between Nixdorf Blacks, "Vintage" Blacks, and well-used "Old" Blacks.

ETA: just took apart all the Nixdorfs I had, and it looks like there are two main batches (but possibly more within--who knows Cherry and their multitude of numbers!).  The switches with more transparent tops all have silver-toned springs, and the more opaque switches have a darkened gold-bronze spring.  I tried checking if the bottom housings were different between the two types, but they look to be the same.  The numbers on the bottom housing were mostly between 103 and 135 for the more transparent tops (though one or two were up to 185), and the numbers on the bottom housings for the more opaque tops were mostly between 135 and 185.  I wish I knew what those numbers meant: batch date codes?  Factory codes?  As for the clear tops themselves, some had the same exact numbers while being of two different opaqueness levels.



Not really relevant to this review: just random thoughts:
More
I should also add that I finally got to try a topre keyboard, and topre is much much smoother than the smoothest Cherry switches I've tried.  So if these are the smoothest Cherry MX can offer, it seems to be physically limited in design in how smooth it can get, even with proper lubrication.  Edited to add after some discussion below: that said, you can still have a very very smooth typing experience with well-lubricated smoothed out Cherry MX.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:05:44 by Photoelectric »
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Offline whiskytango

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 16:29:14 »
Good write up. I like how the label "old" has caught on. I was just looking for something to call the older blacks that don't have the larger logo to differentiate them from modern production without calling them vintage.
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Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 16:33:24 »
Nice to hear your opinion on these. I haven't seen much written about them, aside from me constantly going on about how much I like them.. :))

For me, even without any lubrication, they're as smooth as Topre. Not sure if it's because my batch is smoother, or just difference in opinions. There are 1 or 2 out of the ones I have that are a tiny bit rough.

There is only one other type of MX black I've tried that's as smooth. The MX blacks on my 1988 G80-2000HAD.

Great photos as always. Are the switch tops really that yellow in person or is the white balance off? Mine are definitely more clear than that.
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Offline xman

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 16:43:22 »
Very interesting. Thanks.

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 16:45:52 »
Even the smoothest of the smooth linear MX Switches that I've tried has some friction.  I've tried many hundreds of MX Black switches (bag of 300 "old" MX Blacks, around 140 "vintage" MX Blacks + 86 "vintage" MX Blacks on my LZ-GH which all come from different keyboards + some brand new MX Blacks on 2 modern keyboards), and none feel as smooth as topre*.  When actually typing, small amounts of fiction become much less noticeable, if noticeable at all.  When I'm talking about smoothness, I mean pressing an individual switch gradually and repeatedly, specifically feeling for the smoothness characteristic.  When I lubricate switches, I test every single one when I put it back together and decide if it's sufficiently smooth or if I should try a different combination / add more lubricant / change lubricant properties, etc.

*To clarify what I mean about topre smoothness: it still has some friction at the top where the bump is--the resistance.  Then past that point on the inevitable way down, there's no noticeable friction.  With Cherry MX, there's some friction along the entire 4mm travel distance. My lubricated MX Blacks feel ridiculously smooth, and I'm thinking if I could lubricate this topre board, it would probably still feel overall smoother.  For all intents and purposes, I agree that typing on very smooth and lubricated MX Blacks can feel as smooth as stock topre.
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Offline strict

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 18:16:38 »
Very nice write-up! There are so many legends & rumors about the fabled Nixdorf blacks it's very nice to see a reputable source provide their impression. :thumb:

I'm very sensitive to scratchiness in switch travel so I've been on a quest to round up the absolute smoothest of the smooth vintage/old blacks for a build I'm planning. I picked up an old WYSE board with vintage blacks and probably half of the switches are very smooth, a quarter feel no different than a new black, and the remaining quarter are in a middle-ground. As a result, I've been trying to locate another 1-2 boards with vintage blacks so that I can hand pick the best of the best. I was hoping to find some Nixdorf blacks since they seem to have an almost legendary status among linear switch enthusiasts but after reading your impressions I'm thinking I would be better off to continue pursuing plain vintage/old blacks since they are so much cheaper.

- Can you share any more details on the lubrication materials and methods you tried?
- What are your thoughts on thin vs thick lube on nixdorf/old/vintage blacks?
- Would you say Nixdorf blacks are worth their going rate of about $1.00 to $1.50 per switch?
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:15:11 by strict »

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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 19:06:16 »
I can't answer your question about the worth of something rare and collectible: it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.  If you just care about smoothness and not the translucent tops, yes, I think you would be better off buying vintage/old MX Blacks and selecting the smoothest switches from each batch for your build.  I'm pretty sure the actual switches are the same, just the tops are different.  And on the note of the latest clear tops: those are made of different material on a different factory, and the very first batch was quite scratchy (I have one remaining cover I saved, which you can see on the Esc switch on photographs above).

Lubrication-wise, Krytox is great.  Thin mixture for linear switches.  I have some experimental mixes from mkawa that I've been using, but in general I think the "thin" formulation that you can buy is a good one.  I'd do something like 35-40% of [GPL 206 or similar] grease and 60-65% of [GPL 106 or similar] oil.  I also use Victorinox Multi-Tool oil for springs and stem shafts for everything except clicky swtiches to heavily dampen spring resonance and provide a bit of extra cushioning.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 June 2014, 19:09:09 by Photoelectric »
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Offline phoenix1234

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 19:50:10 »
I should also add that I finally got to try a topre keyboard, and topre is much much smoother than the smoothest Cherry switches I've tried.  So if these are the smoothest Cherry MX can offer, it seems to be physically limited in design in how smooth it can get, even with proper lubrication.  Edited to add after some discussion below: that said, you can still have a very very smooth typing experience with well-lubricated smoothed out Cherry MX. [/more]

I agree with this part. I tried a lot of Cherry MX Black, Vintage Black, lubed and non-lubed ones so I understand what you mean.
Cherry MX is very sensitive with friction. Changing the housing, different type of lube, stem would change the level of scratchiness.

I can't answer your question about the worth of something rare and collectible: it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.  If you just care about smoothness and not the translucent tops, yes, I think you would be better off buying vintage/old MX Blacks and selecting the smoothest switches from each batch for your build.  I'm pretty sure the actual switches are the same, just the tops are different.  And on the note of the latest clear tops: those are made of different material on a different factory, and the very first batch was quite scratchy (I have one remaining cover I saved, which you can see on the Esc switch on photographs above).

For this part, I believe a lot of people who are seeking for the Nixdorf switches should say thank you for what you shared  :thumb:.
Especially the ones who failed the bidding of 10 Nixdorf boards yesterday :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371073889258
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Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 19:50:42 »
Especially the ones who failed the bidding of 10 Nixdorf boards yesterday :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371073889258
>:D
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 20:15:03 »
I should also add that I finally got to try a topre keyboard, and topre is much much smoother than the smoothest Cherry switches I've tried.  So if these are the smoothest Cherry MX can offer, it seems to be physically limited in design in how smooth it can get, even with proper lubrication.  Edited to add after some discussion below: that said, you can still have a very very smooth typing experience with well-lubricated smoothed out Cherry MX. [/more]

I agree with this part. I tried a lot of Cherry MX Black, Vintage Black, lubed and non-lubed ones so I understand what you mean.
Cherry MX is very sensitive with friction. Changing the housing, different type of lube, stem would change the level of scratchiness.

I can't answer your question about the worth of something rare and collectible: it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.  If you just care about smoothness and not the translucent tops, yes, I think you would be better off buying vintage/old MX Blacks and selecting the smoothest switches from each batch for your build.  I'm pretty sure the actual switches are the same, just the tops are different.  And on the note of the latest clear tops: those are made of different material on a different factory, and the very first batch was quite scratchy (I have one remaining cover I saved, which you can see on the Esc switch on photographs above).

For this part, I believe a lot of people who are seeking for the Nixdorf switches should say thank you for what you shared  :thumb:.
Especially the ones who failed the bidding of 10 Nixdorf boards yesterday :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371073889258
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

holy ****ing ****

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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:06:46 »
Just took apart all those switches or cleaning and added more observations at the end of the OP.   Some day I should look into what all those little numbers mean on the stems as well as on the housing parts.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:19:17 »
Especially the ones who failed the bidding of 10 Nixdorf boards yesterday :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371073889258
>:D


DAMNIT. I was so looking forward to those too :(. Oh well, this lovely review is a bit of a balm. Thanks for sharing Photoelectric. I'd say nice photos but I expect those from you always :P

Offline bazh

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:31:42 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))
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Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:33:51 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))
Yeah, we got outbid :<
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:33:54 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))

According to the DT thread, that mini GB got outbid by 200 Euros. Then Tinlong tried to bid for 700 euros and got outbid too.

Offline bazh

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:43:19 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))
Yeah, we got outbid :<

oh crap, that is almost $100 for each o.O
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Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:45:29 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))
Yeah, we got outbid :<

oh crap, that is almost $100 for each o.O
Still a good price. I paid 100€ for mine, as did most people who have them. I'm guessing those PCBs went to China or Korea.
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Offline bazh

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:50:26 »
isn't that the mini GB on DT? :))
Yeah, we got outbid :<

oh crap, that is almost $100 for each o.O
Still a good price. I paid 100€ for mine, as did most people who have them. I'm guessing those PCBs went to China or Korea.

yeah I dont mind spending that much on a nixdorf board for those switches, but for 10 boards at a time, must be some maniac o.O

must be Korean :))
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Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:52:21 »
Probably a group of people doing a small GB, just like what we were trying to do on DT, not just 1 guy. That _would_ be pretty mad :)) (unless he bought them to make profit)
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Offline phoenix1234

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 21:58:14 »
Still a good price. I paid 100€ for mine, as did most people who have them. I'm guessing those PCBs went to China or Korea.
Maybe you're right. I think the mini GB concept for this kind of ebay bidding won't work because the community has its constraints while there are a lot of collectors and traders who have no boundary in term of money out there. After this, a lot of people in DT and GH community who really love this Nixdorf didn't have a chance to touch this board ...  :blank: Anyway, I really hope whoever won this bidding will sell them back to DT and GH at least some.
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 22:32:15 »
Whoever was selling them also knows about boards....interesting

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 22:35:29 »
Whoever was selling them also knows about boards....interesting

The opposite actually, they listed the name as something not very obvious...

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 22:50:56 »
Then how did they get their hands on only the PCBs? Strange

Offline Photekq

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 22:53:52 »
Then how did they get their hands on only the PCBs? Strange
He probably went to an ecycler and thought they looked valuable, or knew what MX switches were.
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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 08 June 2014, 23:05:25 »
Then how did they get their hands on only the PCBs? Strange

The person who sold me my PCB got it from a guy who thought they were worthless...most of the world looks at their old beige keyboards and probably thinks they are junk..

Offline SaySo

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 09 June 2014, 06:40:43 »
.
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 July 2018, 12:40:31 by SaySo »

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 09 June 2014, 08:05:20 »
Probably a group of people doing a small GB, just like what we were trying to do on DT, not just 1 guy. That _would_ be pretty mad :)) (unless he bought them to make profit)


So sad that the mini did not succeeded  :(
I was a little surprised when n3o told the max bid of the mini GB. All of you know the average value of one board and I thought that all of you will give average 100€ for a board.





I paid 125 Euro for an entire board of Nixdorf switches, and 1.5 Euro for each of the switches above from the same source.   Interesting that the batch above appear to be completely different.   Different switch tops, springs etc...

But, what's the point, if they're not any smoother than the cheap and cheery vintage or "old" MX Black switch??

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Re: "Nixdorf" Cherry MX Blacks - comparative impression thoughts
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 09 June 2014, 08:19:55 »
Probably a group of people doing a small GB, just like what we were trying to do on DT, not just 1 guy. That _would_ be pretty mad :)) (unless he bought them to make profit)


So sad that the mini did not succeeded  :(
I was a little surprised when n3o told the max bid of the mini GB. All of you know the average value of one board and I thought that all of you will give average 100€ for a board.



TBH, I think the person(s) who won the auction would have given more than €100 for each board.
Personally I set my max bid to €50. I completely agree with Photoelectric that the switches are not superior to other blacks in therms of feel and are only worth it for the looks, so that is the reason I set my max to 50.

There is however one thing I would like to add. I find Nixdorf switches to have less wobble than regular black top switches. This is due to the clear top having a slightly tighter fit around the stem, so there is less room to wriggle the stem.