Headphone Thread.

[NamelessPFG]

I thought that was the common wisdom for anything from Creative.  It seems that EVERYONE has horrible drivers.

It's practically a rule that audio device drivers have to suck, in my experience. Creative, Asus, Realtek, maybe even non-Asus, C-Media-based cards too. (It's quite telling that some of the Xonar Unified Driver packages use the default C-Media control panel like the Auzentech and HT Omega cards using the same chipset.)

That said, my X-Fi cards haven't given me much fuss, from my four-year-old X-Fi Prelude to the X-Fi Forte to the X-Fi Titanium HD I traded the Forte for (other guy needed analog surround channels, I didn't). Good thing that's the case, because I have to have their gaming DSP effects.

[Ragnorock]

I would just like to mention that the only way to properly do DAC is with a standalone DAC out of the case, (Schiit Bifrost or something) not a sound card. Anyone trying to argue the merits of one brand of sound card vs another is silly.

[mkawa]

meh. it's not like usb dacs are immune from EMI or other pc-based noise sources; they get a fair amount of noise over the bus (particularly if they rely on it for power), and computer desks are pretty noisy things.

it's important to remember that you're never going to get distortion-less audio repro, and by far the largest source of distortion in any reasonable listening setup is environmental (pollution, reflections, etc), and all the stuff between the voice coils and your brain

[Ragnorock]

I was thinking of optical or coaxial input, USB DACs just aren't as good.

[mkawa]

coax and optical are both far from perfect, and the audio codecs tend to resample before sending the bits out.

[Surly73]

It's practically a rule that audio device drivers have to suck, in my experience. Creative, Asus, Realtek, maybe even non-Asus, C-Media-based cards too. (It's quite telling that some of the Xonar Unified Driver packages use the default C-Media control panel like the Auzentech and HT Omega cards using the same chipset.)

That said, my X-Fi cards haven't given me much fuss, from my four-year-old X-Fi Prelude to the X-Fi Forte to the X-Fi Titanium HD I traded the Forte for (other guy needed analog surround channels, I didn't). Good thing that's the case, because I have to have their gaming DSP effects.

I've had lots of issues with my Auzentech Forte 7.1 drivers by Creative.  Analog outputs vanish.  It thinks the card isn't installed. Problems and crashes when switching modes.  Sometimes when switching the number of speakers (or from speakers to headphones) all audio will go away and not come back.  Really annoying.

[Ragnorock]

coax and optical are both far from perfect, and the audio codecs tend to resample before sending the bits out.

I'm not saying that standalone DACs are superior to analog by itself, I'm saying that they are superior to internal soundcards aslmost universally. Also the bifrost does bitperfect conversion, meaning no upscaling.

[Parak]

I'm not saying that standalone DACs are superior to analog by itself, I'm saying that they are superior to internal soundcards aslmost universally.

That's a pretty lofty claim, actually. In which metrics are they superior, and do you have objective measurements to back that up?

:pop2:

[Ragnorock]

I don't need to, do your own research. I don't have time to explain it again.

[Parak]

I don't need to, do your own research. I don't have time to explain it again.

Yeah that's not quite how this works. If you make a nebulous claim like that without providing evidence, I don't need to find evidence of my own to dismiss it.

Here's a similar pointless argument: "I would just like to mention that the only way to properly drive to the grocery store is with a Ford (Mustang Boss or something) not a Chevy. Anyone trying to argue the merits of Corvette vs Camaro is silly."

[Ragnorock]

Point taken, but if I'm going to spend my time arguing the merits of soundcards vs standalone DACs, I'm going to do it on Head FI, not a headphone thread on a keyboard forum. I have group buys to run. Its something I have generally regarded as fact for a long time like most people who know about them do. I'm not going to go dredging up relevant information to further derail a thread, sorry.

[Typhaeon]

Lower-end setup compared to most here: Sennheiser PC350s running through an ASUS Xonar Essence STX.  I should at least upgrade the cans at some point; was thinking about the 360s since Sennheisers have great build quality and the noise-cancelling mic has never let me down.  

Pretty much every other headset has a bunch of gimmicky "gamer" horse**** tacked onto it, and uses some awful on-board USB sound processor that makes my supposed enthusiast card rather irrelevant in function.  Suggestions, anybody?  I'd very much prefer a headset to a standard pair of headphones, because standalone mics are often terrible, don't cancel noise properly, etc.

[Ragnorock]

Blue microphones aren't terrible, just sayin'.

[volund]

I'm currently using a pair of JVC HA-RX 700's fed by a ASUS Xonar DX

[NamelessPFG]

I've had lots of issues with my Auzentech Forte 7.1 drivers by Creative.  Analog outputs vanish.  It thinks the card isn't installed. Problems and crashes when switching modes.  Sometimes when switching the number of speakers (or from speakers to headphones) all audio will go away and not come back.  Really annoying.

I'll admit, my Forte disappeared from Windows once, and it wasn't solved until I started changing which PCIe slot it was installed in. There was also the occasional lockup during mode switch, which seemed to be avoidable if I just make sure to close every application first, including Web browsers. Not exactly the best of driver experiences, but at least it worked most of the time.

By comparison, the Prelude and Titanium HD are quite stable, same damn Creative drivers aside. I'm just grateful that they're usable at all given how much I depend on their DSP features while gaming. Wouldn't want to do without EAX or CMSS-3D Headphone now...

[mkawa]

I'm not saying that standalone DACs are superior to analog by itself, I'm saying that they are superior to internal soundcards aslmost universally. Also the bifrost does bitperfect conversion, meaning no upscaling.

actually this isn't necessarily true. the issue, as i alluded to before is noise. _in general_ there are more sources of noise inside the case than out.

generally speaking, there are two sources of noise when you colocate your D/A stage with your computer. 1) EMI 2) switching noise from the PC's power supply

the reason people generally try to do D/A conversion out of the case is that moving out of the case is the most reasonable way to avoid both sources of noise. EMI is generally blocked by a sufficiently thick case, and the PC's power supply can't inject noise on your D/A's power rail if it's not powered by it.

that said, nothing's stopping you from doing both within the case, and if you look at pro audio cards such as the m-audio line, they deal with EMI by shielding their cards, and regulate the crap out of power from the power supply to stomp out noise on the power rail. in exchange, they get massive bandwidth from being on PCIe.

it's also worth noting that you can fail at both these things on an outboard device too. this is why, eg, usb devices don't always sound that great. not only do they have to deal with bus noise, traffic, and corruption, but it's not like the only source of EMI is your computer... further, usually _if_ they have outboard power supplies, they're switchers that are just as noisy as your ATX job, and lower voltage to boot. spdif doesn't completely fix this, but at least gets rid of the bus aspect. still, you have to keep resampling, jitter, etc. in mind if you go this route.

anyway, my point was that nothing's perfect, and you shouldn't feel like you need to rejigger everything and buy all kinds of audiophile gear because someone on the internet tells you that your sound card is junk.

my "perfect" setup (ie, the one i can't find enough flaws in to give a piss) is a pair of infinity ref1's (ca. 1989) i got free and refoamed, a lepai ta2020-based amp that i hacked the input section off of (the volume pot died, oops), and an amb gamma1 kit that i leave usb powered. the headphone end of it is a meta42 kit and a pair of senn hd600s (pushing 11 years old this year!).

at near field, this is about as good as it gets, and the largest investment was in tools and time to build and learn.

[kraise]

Anyone have good recommendations for headphones that will be good for computer use and for listening through an amp to practice guitar?

I have been looking at ATH-M50s, AKG K240s, and AKG K271s. I have tried the first two at a local store and they both felt good on my head and both produced different sounds (semi-open vs. closed) but also fine. I wasn't hugely impressed however but maybe because my expectations were so high after reading so many reviews... I still might get the M50s though since they felt a little more sturdy and I already know I will probably drop them a few times on my hardwood floor. I do like the fact though that both AKGs come with two detachable cables though, one can be used for computer use and the other to my amp. I'm open to suggestions! And also important: budget is around $250 CAD

Note: I have had my eyes on AKG K702s for a while now but seems that prices here have jumped from at least a year ago, around $450 now.

[mkawa]

alessandro music series 1. sublime for guitar practice

[NamelessPFG]

Speaking of EMI inside computer cases, I wonder if that's actually what people hear from the analog outputs of onboard audio and not, say, a ground loop caused by poor motherboard design (from an audio standpoint).

I'm not saying that EMI/RFI is a non-factor, but I can't rule out the possibility that some of the issues are misattributed, either.

[Ragnorock]

Anyone have good recommendations for headphones that will be good for computer use and for listening through an amp to practice guitar?

I have been looking at ATH-M50s, AKG K240s, and AKG K271s. I have tried the first two at a local store and they both felt good on my head and both produced different sounds (semi-open vs. closed) but also fine. I wasn't hugely impressed however but maybe because my expectations were so high after reading so many reviews... I still might get the M50s though since they felt a little more sturdy and I already know I will probably drop them a few times on my hardwood floor. I do like the fact though that both AKGs come with two detachable cables though, one can be used for computer use and the other to my amp. I'm open to suggestions! And also important: budget is around $250 CAD

Note: I have had my eyes on AKG K702s for a while now but seems that prices here have jumped from at least a year ago, around $450 now.

Okay so the 701/2s are actually $280 on amazon. I have Prime so I could get them to me for free and then I could ship them to you if they are that much more expensive in Canada. I recently bought a pair of 271mk2s, which are essentially closed back 240s, so they offer a nice balance between the great soundstage and clarity of the 240s, while upping the bass and isolation toward the M50s. The mids on the M50s are pretty weak compared to their bass and treble, but overall are still an excellent value, no one will ever say you made a bad buy getting them. It depends on your musical tastes and such more than anything. While the bass in the M50s isn't overpowering, its just really well done, they aren't suited for every kind of music. Unamped, the 271s have enough efficiency that I can listen to them as loud as I want without having to deal with the lack of portability that comes with using an amp. Amped though, the 702s are pretty much superior in every way, including bass- lol yeah, I was surprised.

Since you probably don't really need to keep others from hearing your music or you hearing outside noises, closed isn't strictly necessary unless you are a bass freak.

[emptyk]

^ Amazon Prime is the Devil and an enabler of acquisition disorder.

To stay on topic, I bought my Sennheiser HD-650 headphones using Amazon Prime.

[kraise]

alessandro music series 1. sublime for guitar practice

I hear good things about those too but unfortunately I can't find anyone who carries them locally to try and/or buy

Okay so the 701/2s are actually $280 on amazon. I have Prime so I could get them to me for free and then I could ship them to you if they are that much more expensive in Canada. I recently bought a pair of 271mk2s, which are essentially closed back 240s, so they offer a nice balance between the great soundstage and clarity of the 240s, while upping the bass and isolation toward the M50s. The mids on the M50s are pretty weak compared to their bass and treble, but overall are still an excellent value, no one will ever say you made a bad buy getting them. It depends on your musical tastes and such more than anything. While the bass in the M50s isn't overpowering, its just really well done, they aren't suited for every kind of music. Unamped, the 271s have enough efficiency that I can listen to them as loud as I want without having to deal with the lack of portability that comes with using an amp. Amped though, the 702s are pretty much superior in every way, including bass- lol yeah, I was surprised.

Since you probably don't really need to keep others from hearing your music or you hearing outside noises, closed isn't strictly necessary unless you are a bass freak.

Wow, thanks for the advice and offer! I didn't get a chance to try the 271s but I just slightly preferred the sound of the 240 over the M50 so I was kind of curious to try the 271 – I was late to meet someone so I had to leave the store. I am almost positive I would have liked it but I also like the semi-open back of the 240s... which brings me back to my first choice: 702.

This is probably the only store in my area that carries the 702 (link below) and although there are a couple of websites that will ship it to me, they will still be over $400. I go here to try out any music/audio-related equipment.
http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/6291/Pro_Audio_Recording/Headphones/AKG/K702_-_Premium_Open_Ear_Reference_Headphones.htm

However, I think I may just pull the trigger on either the 240 or 271 after I try both of them out in-store and see if I ever feel the need to upgrade to the 702 in the future. I won't be able to afford a proper amp anytime soon so I think that is my most rational decision.

[Ragnorock]

Lol yeah, I know how it can be buying things in Canada. Amazon.ca sucks by comparison. Let me know if you want me to do the same deal for either of those though, I figure the shipping to you may or may not make it worthwhile though. They're both around 125-150 here.

[kraise]

To stay on topic, I bought my Sennheiser HD-650 headphones using Amazon Prime.

I wish I could get those! Just outside of my budget though. I'm trying to be good and start giving myself a budget for purchases.

Lol yeah, I know how it can be buying things in Canada. Amazon.ca sucks by comparison. Let me know if you want me to do the same deal for either of those though, I figure the shipping to you may or may not make it worthwhile though. They're both around 125-150 here.

I really appreciate the offer and although I would probably save a few bucks (even after compensating you) I'll just get them locally to save any hassle. Thanks though!

Amazon.ca does suck for electronics and variety and I sometimes buy off Amazon.com anyway and just take the hit from duty/customs but a lot of things won't even ship. I will try out the 240 and M50 again and then try the 271 and get one of the three if I really like one of them.

[modulor]

One of my good friends just ordered a pair of the AKG K 271 MK II 32ohm and I've very curious to hear what they sound like compared to my Senn HD280 Pros 64ohm once his are broken in.  Plus, they are pretty badass looking in comparision.  The only time I use the Senns though is for planes or the occasional solo metro train ride.  They can't compare to open air cans like my Grado 225i or even my Koss PortaPro (IMO) but when external silence is of importance, a good pair of closed phones is indeed necessary (as is his case).

[aynjell]

alessandro music series 1. sublime for guitar practice

I'd of reccomended something similar, although I would have suggested grado based on personal experience with them, they're largely the same can so I'd assume that the ms-1 is just as good if not better for the purpose.

[Ragnorock]

Allesandros are basically tuned/upgraded Grados... so yeah you can get 90% of the can with a pair of Grados.

[mkawa]

Speaking of EMI inside computer cases, I wonder if that's actually what people hear from the analog outputs of onboard audio and not, say, a ground loop caused by poor motherboard design (from an audio standpoint).

I'm not saying that EMI/RFI is a non-factor, but I can't rule out the possibility that some of the issues are misattributed, either.

i think the ****tyness of onboard audio is caused by a huge number of factors and it's probably not worth thinking too much about exactly which one of them is worst.

alessandros are barely modified grados. given the qc from the grado factory (basically non-existent), it's hard to believe that they would sound any different on average, AND YET i tried both the sr80 and the MS1s as a guitar monitor, and i preferred the MS1s. i have no idea why, but the MS1s sounded lusher and fuller.

afaik they measure approximately the same as the sr80/sr125 though, so i dunno really.

[bace]

I just recently got into headphones after mechanical keyboards. Heres what I currently have in my possession.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41514[/ATTACH]

[AKIMbO]

I just recently got into headphones after mechanical keyboards. Heres what I currently have in my possession.

(Attachment Link) 41514[/ATTACH]

How do you like those beyers?  I've got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT-990 Premiums and I've always been curious as to what their supra-aurals sound like.

[bace]

How do you like those beyers?  I've got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT-990 Premiums and I've always been curious as to what their supra-aurals sound like.

Me ears are still pretty inexperienced but the dt1350s sound excellent to me and I like them alot. They are very comfortable and isolates very well. The highs and mids are extremely clear and crisp but not piercing. The lows are tight and punchy but lacking some body. Amping does helps to add body to the lows though. I've had little experience with circumaurals so I can't really make any comparisons. I listen mostly to alt. rock, rap/hip-hop, dubstep, and progressive/electro house. The dt1350 are my favorite for alt. rock and electro house while I prefer the hd25-1 or the tma-1 for rap and dubstep although the dt1350 could hold its own in those genres too.

[Supertoaster]

I'm using this crappy Rosewill USB headset. It has such boring sound. I plan to get some JVC HAR700's and a Asus XONAR DG for my Birthday in May.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826193055

[laffindude]

I listen mostly to alt. rock, rap/hip-hop, dubstep, and progressive/electro house.

That's pretty obvious from your collection of cans. You really should pick up a set of Denon D2000. They're right up your alley.

[Mysteric]

I've heard the DT 770 Pro 80 Ohms are also good for those genres of music (Which I listen to). Good buy or not? I'm planning on buying them pretty soon.

[volund]

I'm using this crappy Rosewill USB headset. It has such boring sound. I plan to get some JVC HAR700's and a Asus XONAR DG for my Birthday in May.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826193055

awesome combo, I have the Xonar DX and the HARX, great sound quality for games and music

[Supertoaster]

awesome combo, I have the Xonar DX and the HARX, great sound quality for games and music

Yeah, plus I can mod them. it's funny the 700s are basically 900s but missing a few things. Do ypu think they work good for electronics with lots of synths

[bace]

That's pretty obvious from your collection of cans. You really should pick up a set of Denon D2000. They're right up your alley.

Cool, I'll look into those. Thanks.

[GeorgeStorm]

How would people say AKG 601s compare to ones like DT770s in terms of quality?
As far as I'm aware, the DT's are more bass heavy, but purely in terms of build/sound quality, how do they compare? If they are roughly the same price/the 601s being slightly cheaper, would they be a sensible buy?

[PixelVandalism]

So I currently have these **** Aerial 7 headphones
It's my birthday soon (yay)
and I am kinda thinking that I would like these and this
Would it be worth 200 of my precious dollars?
Would you recommend something different?

[Ragnorock]

You don't really need an amp for those, its the 240's big brother the 701/2 that is difficult to drive without one. Neither is FiiO a top of the line brand, though they do make great portable amps. That said, it will help nonetheless. As for the cans, those are a great option, though I would probably go with the mkiis if you can afford it. The extra accessories and aesthetic redesign makes them a bit better value even with the extra $50 tacked on to the price. Those are semi open, which means if you're wearing them in public and listening to them at a medium-high to loud volume and there isn't a lot of ambient noise, odds are most will be able to hear you. Those concerns depend on your planned usage of them obviously. Anyways I'm a big fan of AKGs, I have the 701s and 271 mkiis. I went with the 271s for my portable pair because of the better sound isolation and I have the 701s if I really want to just listen to the music. If I didn't have them I probably would have gotten the 240s though.

[PixelVandalism]

You don't really need an amp for those, its the 240's big brother the 701/2 that is difficult to drive without one. Neither is FiiO a top of the line brand, though they do make great portable amps. That said, it will help nonetheless. As for the cans, those are a great option, though I would probably go with the mkiis if you can afford it. The extra accessories and aesthetic redesign makes them a bit better value even with the extra $50 tacked on to the price. Those are semi open, which means if you're wearing them in public and listening to them at a medium-high to loud volume and there isn't a lot of ambient noise, odds are most will be able to hear you. Those concerns depend on your planned usage of them obviously. Anyways I'm a big fan of AKGs, I have the 701s and 271 mkiis. I went with the 271s for my portable pair because of the better sound isolation and I have the 701s if I really want to just listen to the music. If I didn't have them I probably would have gotten the 240s though.

I'm only going to be using them at home,
So the semi-open doesn't really affect me.
I've tried a friend's 701's,
If I did choose to buy these would they be as comfortable?
I wouldn't be able to afford the mkII's,
are the only differences the extra cable, velvet ear pads, and coiled cable?
What would you recommend as an amp instead of the FiiO?
I wouldn't want to spend more than $85 on an amp if possible.

But then the real question is,
Should I even bother?

[Ragnorock]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the 240s and the 271s use the same ear cushion pads, since they're both swappable and from everything I can tell they look the same. If that is the case, then the 240s will not be as comfortable imo. The 701's pads are thicker, and thus my ears, which I generally consider to be of pretty normal, maybe a bit larger in size, do not touch the inside of the can on the 701 but do on the 271s. My friend noted the same difference. Those are pretty much the differences, aside from the exterior redesign, the speakers inside of the 240, whatever version, are the same and sound the same for all intensive purposes. The only real difference is that the ear cushions in the mkii are softer so they conform better to your head, offering better bass response and more comfort.

If it was me doing it all over again, and I was only listening to them at home, I would do almost exactly what I did the first time and save up and get the 701s with a desktop solid state amp such as the Matrix M stage http://www.head-fi.org/t/599832/matrix-m-stage-newest-2-1-version-silver-new

or the pricier tube amp Schiit Lyr. http://www.head-fi.org/t/576141/wts-schiit-lyr-aus

Obviously that is much more than you have laid out for a price range so I say your plan is solid. The 240s are great cans, but buy them first and decide what you think of them before getting an amp. Odds are you won't feel its necessary as long as your source is decent.

[PixelVandalism]

I have about a month to decide on what I want to do.
I am really liking the look of the 240's though.
I should try to sell my Aerial7 cans.

[sth]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43638[/ATTACH]
Grado SR125i, PreSonus Firebox. Probably not the best amp but it's a simple signal chain.

[Roguemaster8]

All these Grado headphones...Are they really worth the price?

I was thinking about upgrading to some M50's, but for that money I could get a nice Tenkeyless Filco with browns.

[Kazen]

cheap 10€ earbuds..

do the job well.

[feckn_eejit]

.

[ironman31]

All these Grado headphones...Are they really worth the price?

I was thinking about upgrading to some M50's, but for that money I could get a nice Tenkeyless Filco with browns.

I love my sr60i's. I had a pair of 325is, but didn't really like the sound of them all that much. They also made my ears ache (from what I would assume to be the brightness). I drove them with an ibasso d10 cobra. Never tried anything higher than those.

[PixelVandalism]

What would you recommend as a first pair of decent headphones?
These, or these.
They're both the same price for me to get them.
Not sure what amp I'm going to get to drive them yet either.

[mkawa]

koss ksc35 or sportapros if they still make them. no amp.

if you go grado you you need to do sr80s at a minimum. the sr60s are muddy and bleh