Author Topic: Question about cherry authenticity (Read 16295 times)

pitfermi · « **on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:47:55 »

Cherry browns from two different sources. Left is 7bit and right is winkeyless. Why are the logos slightly different size? Made me question which ones are original lol. Or did cherry just change the logo at some point?

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Puddsy · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:50:01 »

That's odd.

Wouldn't surprise me if they changed the logo size with the new stems, though.

chyros · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:57:59 »

I found a blue switch at a meetup recently that had an instantly visibly different top housing with very different logo, I suspect it's one of the new ones. Should be easy to recognise, then. Btw, that brown switch picture almost makes it look like the browns are different colour, too Oo .

pitfermi · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 18:59:12 »

Sorry about the lighting. They are exactly the same color and feel while clicking, just the logo confused me. I am all new to this and dont know thats why i posted here

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tp4tissue · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:07:27 »

yea... i made a thread about this.. apparently they do change it up here n there.

ALTHOUGH...... i wouldn't be surprised if there were cherry counterfeits..

pitfermi · « **Reply #5 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:14:38 »

Ok. I just checked the internals. I think the springs are also very little different in length and look on the edges. Or?

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tp4tissue · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:15:32 »

Quote from: pitfermi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:14:38

Ok. I just checked the internals. I think the springs are also very little different in length and look on the edges. Or?
Show Image

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hahaha

the springs are known to be different between batches/ even within batches..

Instead, Check the leaf springs with a caliper, they should be 100% consistent.

careful not to pinch the round part.

pitfermi · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:16:27 »

XD okay.

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pitfermi · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:30:04 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:15:32

Quote from: pitfermi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:14:38
Ok. I just checked the internals. I think the springs are also very little different in length and look on the edges. Or?
Show Image

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

hahaha

the springs are known to be different between batches/ even within batches..

Instead, Check the leaf springs with a caliper, they should be 100% consistent.

careful not to pinch the round part.

Not sure what you mean with leaf springs. I only know of this one big spring

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tp4tissue · « **Reply #9 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:36:47 »

Quote from: pitfermi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:30:04

Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:15:32
Quote from: pitfermi on Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:14:38
Ok. I just checked the internals. I think the springs are also very little different in length and look on the edges. Or?
Show Image

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

hahaha

the springs are known to be different between batches/ even within batches..

Instead, Check the leaf springs with a caliper, they should be 100% consistent.

careful not to pinch the round part.
Not sure what you mean with leaf springs. I only know of this one big spring

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

the leaf spring is the copper contact that bends over. it's flat --like a leaf--, be very careful not to bend it.

pitfermi · « **Reply #10 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 19:38:40 »

Ok will try to mess around with it tomorrow . Thanks for answering my noob questions

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nugglets · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:09:45 »

I've seen several variations on the logo, but something I never noticed was that the "A" on the left switch in your picture is upside down.

Going to have to check that on some others now, too.

Puddsy · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:12:36 »

Quote from: nugglets on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:09:45

I've seen several variations on the logo, but something I never noticed was that the "A" on the left switch in your picture is upside down.

Going to have to check that on some others now, too.

oh whoa, that's weird

good eye

nugglets · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:21:25 »

Quote from: Puddsy on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:12:36

Quote from: nugglets on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:09:45
I've seen several variations on the logo, but something I never noticed was that the "A" on the left switch in your picture is upside down.

Going to have to check that on some others now, too.

oh whoa, that's weird

good eye

It is odd. I just checked my small collection of vintage and modern Cherry switches and none of them have the upside down "A". But I don't have any of the new-new ones, with the new sliders, at the moment either.

OP, were both sliders the same on those? I'm wondering if it has something to do with the info in this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88031.0

tp4tissue · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:27:19 »

Quote from: nugglets on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:21:25

Quote from: Puddsy on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:12:36
Quote from: nugglets on Thu, 30 March 2017, 21:09:45
I've seen several variations on the logo, but something I never noticed was that the "A" on the left switch in your picture is upside down.

Going to have to check that on some others now, too.

oh whoa, that's weird

good eye

It is odd. I just checked my small collection of vintage and modern Cherry switches and none of them have the upside down "A". But I don't have any of the new-new ones, with the new stems, at the moment either.

OP, were both stems the same on those? I'm wondering if it has something to do with the info in this thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88031.0

//Conspiracy rising.. !!

pitfermi · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:23:41 »

Ok i took them apart and here are some pics of the sliders. They seem to be the same on the side but sifferent on the back(or front, whichever you define front or back. The opening is bigger on the 7bit switch whereas on the winkeyless it has this "window" shaped back(see second picture for comparison)

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tp4tissue · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:27:55 »

Quote from: pitfermi on Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:23:41

Ok i took them apart and here are some pics of the sliders. They seem to be the same on the side but sifferent on the back(or front, whichever you define front or back. The opening is bigger on the 7bit switch whereas on the winkeyless it has this "window" shaped back(see second picture for comparison)
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

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Send an email to Cherry .. ask them if these are counterfeits.

pitfermi · « **Reply #17 on:** Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:44:49 »

Quote from: tp4tissue on Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:27:55

Quote from: pitfermi on Fri, 31 March 2017, 05:23:41
Ok i took them apart and here are some pics of the sliders. They seem to be the same on the side but sifferent on the back(or front, whichever you define front or back. The opening is bigger on the 7bit switch whereas on the winkeyless it has this "window" shaped back(see second picture for comparison)
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

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Send an email to Cherry .. ask them if these are counterfeits.

Done. It's not like the back of the switch makes a difference. They might have widened the opening at some point... ?

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ander · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 01 April 2017, 00:17:29 »

And here I thought you'd be wondering if someone was a virgin.

wodan · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 01 April 2017, 00:44:36 »

Oh wow some kids and and a macro camera and suddenly everything is possible.

I have never heard about MX Brown counterfeit switches. Cherry did issue a warning for counterfeit switches but they had yellow stems afaik.

http://blog.cherry.de/news/cherry-mx-yellow-sind-fake/

There's not one single machine that makes the switches at Cherry, MX Browns have been made for over two decades now and i guess the production capacity has been upgraded and replaced over time leading to minor differences in the production tools.

Recently I got a brand new batch of MX Clear switches in the original Cherry box and did an in depth comparison with older MX clears of various vintage. Turns you find sliders with tiny differences in brand new as well as in the highly regarded old batches. There is also some vintage black science going on judging their sliders by the orientation of the cutout in the cross-stem. 7bit and wkl.kr both are legit sources for switches and there's no reason to believe these are counterfeit. Especially considering the Cherry patent has expired a while ago and anyone is free to make clones under their own brand name.

pitfermi · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 02 April 2017, 14:47:50 »

Just in case you missed my message on irc.
i wasn't attacking either of the sources. i even emailed wkl to ask about it and he was certain they are legit. i posted here to let everyone know and as it seems, some were also unaware about the slight different switch batches.
thought it would be interesting to share regardless. i am very happy with my recent purchase on wkl and fast shipping and communication. but you never know, i am sure you have also heard/be warned about cherry counterfeits.

Quote from: wodan on Sat, 01 April 2017, 00:44:36

Oh wow some kids and and a macro camera and suddenly everything is possible.

I have never heard about MX Brown counterfeit switches. Cherry did issue a warning for counterfeit switches but they had yellow stems afaik.

http://blog.cherry.de/news/cherry-mx-yellow-sind-fake/

There's not one single machine that makes the switches at Cherry, MX Browns have been made for over two decades now and i guess the production capacity has been upgraded and replaced over time leading to minor differences in the production tools.

Recently I got a brand new batch of MX Clear switches in the original Cherry box and did an in depth comparison with older MX clears of various vintage. Turns you find sliders with tiny differences in brand new as well as in the highly regarded old batches. There is also some vintage black science going on judging their sliders by the orientation of the cutout in the cross-stem. 7bit and wkl.kr both are legit sources for switches and there's no reason to believe these are counterfeit. Especially considering the Cherry patent has expired a while ago and anyone is free to make clones under their own brand name.

mschmid · « **Reply #21 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 04:04:07 »

Hi Peter,
would it be possible to send me the switches for an analysis? Don't worry, you will get them back.
Thanks,
Michael (PR Manager Cherry)

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #22 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 15:38:40 »

When you say "winkeyless", do you mean an actual Cherry keyboard? I'd be surprised if Cherry used fake switches, and I'd be surprised if 7bit had obtained stocks of fake switches. I would of course like more clarity about 7bit's purchases, as I want to know precisely when he bought these:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:CherryMX_lock_068580.jpg

That's the old MX Lock: the modern version was white on black before it was recently discontinued. Cherry don't know when the design changed (there are three MX Lock colour schemes at least) but white on black was the final design, and black/grey/black is only known from one keyboard from 1985.

The 7bit MX brown design looks a lot like the new Cherry MX slider shape (found in all the new Cherry MX RGB switches, damped and non-damped), but it's not what my ca. 2013 switches look like that I got from the Keyboard Company.

Quote from: mschmid on Mon, 03 April 2017, 04:04:07

Hi Peter,
would it be possible to send me the switches for an analysis? Don't worry, you will get them back.
Thanks,
Michael (PR Manager Cherry)

I'm still waiting for details from you on the real Cherry MX Yellow switches! Blaise knows a bit more but he's vanished into oblivion.

The more interesting ones are the different blues:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Pale_Blue
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Dark_Blue

Sky blue, there's no page for. Dark blue was found in a Chicony, so it's potentially another fake the same as the the yellows. Pale blue has slightly better provenance, but I have my doubts.

Faking brown seems unlikely as Taiwan seemed to have no interest in non-click tactile switches — those are virtually non-existent in Taiwanese product ranges.

pitfermi · « **Reply #23 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 15:46:23 »

I mean winkeyless, the korean shop. Ordered a bunch of browns and some b.mini pcbs lately.

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 03 April 2017, 15:38:40

When you say "winkeyless", do you mean an actual Cherry keyboard? I'd be surprised if Cherry used fake switches, and I'd be surprised if 7bit had obtained stocks of fake switches. I would of course like more clarity about 7bit's purchases, as I want to know precisely when he bought these:

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Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #24 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:03:36 »

Ah right, so that's newer — that figures as that's the new slider shape found on current switches. There are plenty of photos showing it for MX Silent RGB Red but it's also the same for most of my MX RGB Red switches — which according to my records, I don't have. My original RGB Red/Black/Brown switches have the old slider design, but I have a bunch more MX RGB Red with the new sliders. I shouldn't even have those — clearly my records are in error!!!

The RGB shells are fresh moulds and they have the new Cherry logo, but I guess the non-RGB shells won't have the new logo until the moulds need retooling. Non-RGB Silent Red is shown here with the old Cherry logo:

http://cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX_SILENT_RED.htm

The logo size/shape/position has changed a number of times over the years. I don't know what the lifetime is of injection moulding tooling, but the primary reason for Forward terminating SKBL/SKBM series was that the tooling wore out. That's after 16 years or so of use. Tooling lifetime is an interesting issue as it has the potential to explain various unexpected changes in mouldings.

thyporter · « **Reply #25 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:36:57 »

Maybe one of the switches is a vintage, they have got a wider logo

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon, 03 April 2017, 16:39:54 »

I doubt it — 7bit appears to have bought them new:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Cherry_MX_brown_001.jpg

Interestingly, look at the logo of the one in the middle (under camera flash glare) and compare with the logo of the one at the top right (largely hidden behind two other switches). It's hard to be sure, but it seems that both logos are present in the same batch — smaller logo in the middle, larger logo at the top right.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 04 April 2017, 18:37:54 »

For reference, from left to right:

Cherry MX Red, bought from Keyboardco January 2013
Cherry MX Silent RGB Red, bought from AliExpress October 2016
Cherry MX RGB Red, bought from AliExpress December 2015
Cherry MX RGB Red, bought from AliExpress October 2016 (received in error)

I marked off the October 2016 consignment without realising that I'd expected Silent RGB Red but got 5 RGB Red instead — these turned out to have the new slider design! Good thing I got the wrong switch type.

Puddsy · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 04 April 2017, 18:44:28 »

someone in discord (it might've been zeal?) was talking about how the nice new stem designs were introduced with the MX silent switches.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 04 April 2017, 19:05:23 »

ah, yes, you can see the new design here too:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88031.0

falkentyne · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 04 April 2017, 19:05:27 »

I don't know how this applies to RGB MX Blues, but the RGB Blues on the Ducky Shine 6 (and YOTM) are the NICEST RGB blues I've ever seen. I don't know how many of you have new batches of blues/RGB Blues, but you really have to try them. They feel like a completely different manufacturer made the switch, even in comparison to the inconsistent, scratchy, fluttery click RGB Blues on the iKBC F keyboards made last year...and they also feel more tactile and bouncy than both the regular blues and greens on my Ducky Fire 69.

It's probably as close as you'll get to the feel of a buckling spring from a Cherry switch.
1) the tactile bump is more defined than before.
2) there seems to be more resistance in spring weight.
3) the feel of the switch feels more robust (pressing, recoil)
4) the click is deeper pitched and tighter, with far less flutter than older switches (Not every switch is perfect though).

It's literally night and day comparing my Shine 6 vs my iKBC F108.
The iKBC (both of them) were assembled 08/2016 according to the serial# and a stamp on the PCB, but God knows when the switches were produced on it. They're much worse than the Shine 6's blue switches, and Ducky told me that Cherry "improved their manufacturing of blues recently."

pitfermi · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 06 April 2017, 10:57:33 »

Cherry got back to me and confirmed that one of the browns(7bit) is indeed the older design(wider slider) and that the logo has been different due to the machines, they will stick with one in the future though.. so both sources are legit. just a double confirmation

thanks for the info provided in this thread.

SICAR187 · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 07 April 2017, 01:02:05 »

Quote from: falkentyne on Tue, 04 April 2017, 19:05:27

I don't know how this applies to RGB MX Blues, but the RGB Blues on the Ducky Shine 6 (and YOTM) are the NICEST RGB blues I've ever seen. I don't know how many of you have new batches of blues/RGB Blues, but you really have to try them. They feel like a completely different manufacturer made the switch, even in comparison to the inconsistent, scratchy, fluttery click RGB Blues on the iKBC F keyboards made last year...and they also feel more tactile and bouncy than both the regular blues and greens on my Ducky Fire 69.

It's probably as close as you'll get to the feel of a buckling spring from a Cherry switch.
1) the tactile bump is more defined than before.
2) there seems to be more resistance in spring weight.
3) the feel of the switch feels more robust (pressing, recoil)
4) the click is deeper pitched and tighter, with far less flutter than older switches (Not every switch is perfect though).

It's literally night and day comparing my Shine 6 vs my iKBC F108.
The iKBC (both of them) were assembled 08/2016 according to the serial# and a stamp on the PCB, but God knows when the switches were produced on it. They're much worse than the Shine 6's blue switches, and Ducky told me that Cherry "improved their manufacturing of blues recently."

Came here from https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88031.0, I have a POK3R RGB w/ Blacks, they also (unless I'm looking at them wrong) appear to have the "new" design of the slider w/ the notched upside down "U". As seen in the aforementioned post and the 2 Cherry Reds mentioned below by Daniel Beardsmore w/ the 2016 purchase date. I don't have any reference as I've never used vintage Blacks, but my RBGs Blacks are smooth. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 27 April 2017, 17:25:33 »

I got some MX Speed Silver switches today, and those have a whole other logo again — much larger writing, but much thinner strokes. I'll take a photo of one once I have a charged camera battery. It surprises me, because it's the old Cherry logo, when surely it should be the new logo if new moulds were made.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 27 April 2017, 17:54:53 »

Different logo.

chyros · « **Reply #35 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 00:38:02 »

Yeah, that's the logo I had on one of my MX blue switches. I had more or less assumed that the new molds were made with this logo on them.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #36 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 01:12:54 »

OMG.. so fake.... //Counterfeits..

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #37 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 02:18:47 »

Quote from: chyros on Fri, 28 April 2017, 00:38:02

Yeah, that's the logo I had on one of my MX blue switches. I had more or less assumed that the new molds were made with this logo on them.

It's never been the Cherry logo (the font weight is blatantly wrong), and the current logo dates back to 2012. If this were a mould from before 2012 I'd imagine that we'd know by now.

Thin serif face is very Asian, but that's not a generic Asian typeface, that's the Cherry typeface in a lower weight.

It's strange, and since these came from China, I have to be suspicious. It is definitely the modern slider shape, but PG1511 for example already used that shape before Cherry did. The wiki photo taken from the Cherry website shows the old slider shape, so that photo is probably fake too.

I guess these are real, though … Once we've seen more of them for comparison it will become clear.

Targa-TV · « **Reply #38 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 05:53:38 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 27 April 2017, 17:54:53

(Attachment Link)

Different logo.

I don't think the switches with thinner font are counterfeits because my Filco is almost full of them.
Some pictures:

chyros · « **Reply #39 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 10:55:40 »

I got mine directly from Cooler Master. I kinda doubt it too.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 14:54:52 »

Ctrl and Alt are printed incorrectly — FAKE!

How old is that Filco keyboard, anyway?

The far side of the top of each slider is interesting, too — some sort of little recess.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #41 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 14:56:58 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 28 April 2017, 14:54:52

Ctrl and Alt are printed incorrectly — FAKE!

How old is that Filco keyboard, anyway?

The far side of the top of each slider is interesting, too — some sort of little recess.

Super fake for sure..

Targa-TV · « **Reply #42 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 16:56:33 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 28 April 2017, 14:54:52

Ctrl and Alt are printed incorrectly — FAKE!

How old is that Filco keyboard, anyway?

The far side of the top of each slider is interesting, too — some sort of little recess.

Not sure if this irony/sarcasm whatevs but I reversed the caps that's why they are printed 'that way.' Btw I reversed the whole bottom row because this OEM profile is absurdly high. Wth.
I'll open the board tomorrow and check the date on the PCB (I've read that there is where I'm supposed to look?).

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #43 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 16:58:21 »

Approximate age is fine, no need to go to the grief of getting a Filco keyboard apart. I'm just curious how it fits in with the new Cherry logo in 2012.

Targa-TV · « **Reply #44 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:02:17 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 28 April 2017, 16:58:21

Approximate age is fine, no need to go to the grief of getting a Filco keyboard apart. I'm just curious how it fits in with the new Cherry logo in 2012.

Well you'll have to direct me here 'cause I can't find a date on the box and I have no idea how much time did this board spend in whatever storehouse my Japanese proxy kept it before he sold it to me.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #45 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:03:22 »

When did you get it?

Targa-TV · « **Reply #46 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:09:52 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:03:22

When did you get it?

January 2017.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #47 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:12:10 »

Oh, that recently … See, I'd expect to see these switches going all the way back to 2012 and beyond.

Targa-TV · « **Reply #48 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:17:58 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:12:10

Oh, that recently … See, I'd expect to see these switches going all the way back to 2012 and beyond.

Damn, I suspected that it was underpriced but I thought it was because of the ping. Alright now I'm definitely going to open this board. Tomorrow though /night

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #49 on:** Fri, 28 April 2017, 17:20:54 »

Underpriced? I mean, it seems as if Cherry's created new moulds using a logo that went obsolete back in 2012. If Cherry had created that mould before 2012, I'd assume that we'd have seen loads of examples of it since then, but this is the first time I've ever seen that new mould. Maybe everyone else has seen it except me — I've paid very little deliberate attention to Cherry since then.

News:

Author Topic: Question about cherry authenticity (Read 16295 times)