geekhack

geekhack Community => Reviews => Topic started by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 May 2013, 21:52:09

Title: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 May 2013, 21:52:09
At the Chicago/Great Lakes Meetup (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40116.msg854447#msg854447), Tipo33 and I started talking about high end audio equipment. I had brought my Grado SR80s and Tipo33 had his SR60s. Someone else also brought some form of Sennheisers but they were closed back, sounded mediocore, and were humungous when I put them on my head. Not my favorite.
Anyways, Tipo and I then started to talk about amps and other related Hi-Fi equipment and then found out he forgot to bring his CMoy. So like the great guy he is, he sent me the amp to try out. And as promised Ski, here’s your review.

(http://i.imgur.com/WFSuZsq.jpg)
Top of the CMoy amp, closed

(http://i.imgur.com/7uI50P9.jpg)
Bottom of the CMoy amp, closed

A CMoy Amp was designed by Chu Moy, a member of the Headwize (http://headwize.com/?page_id=707p) Community. It was supposed to be test for his Opamp headphone amplifier but turned out to be a great DIY amp. It is low cost compared to many other amps on the market and made a huge difference in sound quality. According to Warren Young, a CMoy and DIY amp enthusiast, you can source the parts for the amp for around $20 (http://tangentsoft.net/audio/CMoy-tutorial/20bucks.html). You can also get different Opamps and customize the board more. I’ve seen a lot of discussion on Head-Fi about that. It’s also portable because of its size and you can mod it to have different LEDs, have a rechargeable battery, plug into the wall, and customize the Opamp.

(http://i.imgur.com/HBRE9Ci.jpg)
CMoy opened up, that proto-board is so cute!


TABLE OF CONTENTS


Setup
At home, I have an Omega Striker 7.1 soundcard in my rig, Grado SR80s, and the CMoy. And just to test it out even further, I brought the CMoy to work where I use Skullcandy Titan earbuds and the work computer. The bass boost was kept on for most of the time; I tried it for ten minutes without the bass boost and the sound sounded lacking so I flipped it back on. And because I didn’t have the wall plugin, the CMoy was powered by 9V batteries.

I then tried it in the following configurations:


Playlist
I typically only listen to metal and hardcore but I wanted to spread the music selection across a wider range to fully appreciate the amp. Even though I listed songs from YouTube, I used Spotify or SoundCloud to listen to the music. I also listened to To the Wind’s Empty Eyes CD (I got a pre-release copy when I saw them with the Greenery on 4/29/13.) Anyways here’s some of the songs I picked out. And shoutouts to Dubsgalore who introduced me to Archie V; now I can’t stop dancing.

Archie V - Rosa
More

Archie V – Alive Remix
More

Backtrack – Too Close
More

Cancer Bats – Hail Destroyer
More

Dipset – More Than Music
More

Wu Tang Clan – Gravel Pit
More


Aesthetics
This thing is in an Altoids box!! It’s so ****ing cool. I can’t even handle it. Since it is a tin box the enclosure is pretty solid. The only thing I don’t like is that the latch seems to be wearing or could wear after much usage and easily flip open. A bit of tape might solve this but I’m sure that’s just a minor detail.

The cutouts in the case are solid. I can turn the volume dial with one hand without supporting it with my other hand. And the jacks for the wires are way stronger than I thought. They also anchor the little proto-board in so that it doesn’t move around too much. Tipo also has tape on the bottom side, I believe, which helps to anchor it in. If I flip it upside down with the top open, nothing falls out.


Battery Life
According to this link (http://www.head-fi.org/t/5721/CMoy-battery-life) at Head-Fi, one non-rechargeable 9V battery should last around fifty-five hours. I’d say this is pretty accurate. The battery that was in the amp originally lasted for about four hours, but it burned out since I accidently left it on overnight while I slept. I also think that the cold weather drained some of the life from the battery as well as Tipo33’s previous usages. The next battery lasted from 4/20/13 until 4/30/13. I’d say I listen to music about five hours a day, between work and home, so the numbers work out.

Edit: The FAQ on JDS Labs' site (http://www.jdslabs.com/faq.php) confirms the battery time and shows a formula that will calculate the battery life.

When I listen with the CMoy I try to always turn it off if someone comes to my desk or if I’m not listening to it. Disposable 9V batteries are a bit pricey and I’d like to try and prolong them as much as I can. It cost me $7 at Radio Shack to buy two of them. And I was in a rush to pick some up the battery died on 4/20 and I really wanted to get in on the 4Grabs buy.


Sound Quality
1) The Grados have a nice neutral sound with an open back so you can hear your surroundings. The bass is actually present and not just a “lower note” when I listen to music. That being said, it’s not that deep but it does exist. Upper end sounds clear and almost reminds me of being at a concert since I can hear the music and other things around me.

2) With just the CMoy amp and my Gradoes, I instantly realized what people meant when they said that the 80s have really nice bass. You feel it when there’s low end. Listen to Rosa and try not to dance. Try it. It reduces me to this (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43163.msg880779#msg880779). The higher end is also very crisp and the open backs make the soundstage such that I can listen to music but hear everything around me. And it just makes the music more realistic for me. Like I’m actually at a venue/concert listening to something. The high end is clear and notes don’t get lost when there are solos or intricate guitar parts going on. If I listen to music in my SkullCandy buds, the sounds almost get meshed and entwined together. Or certain notes get lost in the mix because I swear listening to my Grados made me rediscover my entire library again.

3) As I said above, the soundcard is an Omega Striker 7.1 that I bought for pretty cheap off Binge. After struggling for hours to get the driver to work, I discovered that it really boosts the higher end and makes it a lot cleaner and clearer. However, the bass is still lacking.

4) I know everyone in the CMoy discussion thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42650.30) told me not to do this but I hooked up my soundcard to the front panel headphone jack and then into my CMoy and then into my Grados. I was told to keep it ”line level” (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42650.msg861629#msg861629) but I didn’t think the sound was too bad when I ran it from the front panel. In fact, I felt like this produced the best sound quality. The bass was deep and the upper end was clean. I think the first two days I had the amp/soundcard/Grado setup, I never took anything off. I just listened to music for what seemed like fourty-eight hours straight :D. I seriously don’t think I’ve had such a good setup before and I can easily see myself falling into the rabbit hole/wallethack that is high end audio.

5) The SkullCandys? Well let’s just say they play music and fit in my ears. Plus they were cheap. I won’t be bummed if I ever lose them or anything. When I listen to music with bass in it, it registers as a low note and not as a frequency that I feel. Disappointing honestly. But even these lackluster buds can be improved with the CMoy and that really surprised me. The bass was nice but the high-end was still muddled. Oh well.

Final Thoughts
I need one of these in my life as soon as possible. They make all of my listening experiences way better. Deep bass, clean high ends, and overall fuller richer sound make this a must have for me. If you’d like to order the parts yourself, you can source most of it from RadioShack as I said above. Otherwise, JDS Labs sells kits (http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=76) which has everything you’ll need but the mint tin. If you want to see what other GHers have to say about the amp, check this link out (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42650.0)

Oh and everyone go say something nice to Tipo33 since he’s leaving us for Italy (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43242.0). Cheers brother, hope to continue seeing you on GeekHack!

Other Random Pictures:
(http://i.imgur.com/uRnKcxo.jpg)
LED and Wall Plugin Port

(http://i.imgur.com/5JG5MwV.jpg)
Volume Knob, Audio in and out ports, takes a 1/8” plug

(http://i.imgur.com/gDIW13b.jpg)
Grado SR80i’s
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: moonprismpwr on Tue, 07 May 2013, 21:54:39
Very nice review :) A pretty awesome product that uses an altoid box? Convinced me
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:00:50
Thanks moonprismsis! And you can also use Penguin Mints tins (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Penguinmints.JPG/800px-Penguinmints.JPG) which are really cute. ^__^
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Dubsgalore on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:04:22
Thanks for the Shoutout Bro

I hope more people here discover EDM

Making this on my own would be really cool!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: tipo33 on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:10:37
I'm glad you enjoyed the amp, and don't worry, I will be hanging around GH for quite some time to come.  Especially since you've volunteered yourself as my proxy :p
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:12:55
That better not be the only reason you stick around!  ;)
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: tipo33 on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:14:09
That better not be the only reason you stick around!  ;)
It won't, you know that :D
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:57:16
What OPAmp is in your CMOY Ski? Mine sounds a bit meh with the current one.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: tipo33 on Tue, 07 May 2013, 23:10:03
What OPAmp is in your CMOY Ski? Mine sounds a bit meh with the current one.
OPA2227P   what do you have?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Halverson on Tue, 07 May 2013, 23:12:13
Time to make me one of these :) Thanks mein kapitan!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: demik on Tue, 07 May 2013, 23:44:34
WUUUUUUUUUU TAAAAANNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Title: Re: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 05:52:41
What OPAmp is in your CMOY Ski? Mine sounds a bit meh with the current one.

Make sure you update us on the new OPAmp you decide on SmallFry. I'd like to know for when I buy mine.

Time to make me one of these :) Thanks mein kapitan!

You're welcome, thanks for reading ^__^

WUUUUUUUUUU TAAAAANNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Wu Tang again? Aww yeah, again and again :P
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 08 May 2013, 07:53:45
Haven't read the entire review but that has to be one of the coolest pieces of audio gear I have ever seen.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 08 May 2013, 08:37:17
I presume that I run the "stock" one in their BOM, though I forgot to check. I presume that I use the Texas Instruments OPA2227PA. I don't like it too well, but it works. :P
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 08 May 2013, 08:37:26
The whole set-up lasts only ~55 hours?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 08:39:55
The whole set-up lasts only ~55 hours?

One non-rechargeable 9V battery will last for 55 hours.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 08 May 2013, 08:43:41
OH! Okay. I was thinking, "Man, this doesn't sound like a reasonable thing at all!" Thanks!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 08:45:10
Updated the OP to make that a little clearer. Thanks moose ^__^
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:22:31
Here is some old school info on these....

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/cmoy-tutorial/ (http://tangentsoft.net/audio/cmoy-tutorial/)

Back in the day....like a little over 10 years ago... tangent built these and I actually purchased a penguin tin cmoy amp (it was called the bumblebee) from him and how I wish I would have kept all of that gear....
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:27:16
Ray4jc, I have a few links to that site in my writeup. But thanks for sharing it anyways ^__^
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:28:21
Ray4jc, I have a few links to that site in my writeup. But thanks for sharing it anyways ^__^

Sorry I got excited....I have got to learn to read  :-[
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Photekq on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:36:47
Thanks for the review CPT and thanks tibro33 for lending the amp.

How is the low end bass on songs where it's supposed to be prominent? This would be an example : Bladerunner - Back To The Jungle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOQIoUq4GWg#t=1m5s)

The bassline should be almost as prominent as the drum loop and I'm curious as to how the amp & grados performs. In the past I have only been disappointed by the low end bass in headphones and I'm wondering whether a CMOY & grados might be the way to go.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 14:55:49
I'll test it in a little bit when I'm home and let you know.

Edit: It's not on the same level but it's definitely there. Like the bass doesn't overpower the drum loop but you definitely hear it. I can feel it and it's pretty cool ^__^
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Yslen on Thu, 09 May 2013, 14:47:04
Have you tried a 12V power adapter? They recommend one, I can't remember which. Changes the sound somewhat, clarity seems to increase significantly when I swap between 9V battery and 12V mains. Also means I don't have to worry about battery life! Worth looking into if you haven't already.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 09 May 2013, 15:22:57
I have not but I've been talking to SmallFry about getting away from batteries and using different sources of power. Would I need to worry about too much voltage going into the amp if I use a 12V plugin?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Yslen on Fri, 10 May 2013, 05:51:09
Should be fine if you stick to the recommended model. Its on their website somewhere, can't remember what the US one was!

It is designed to use 12v, unless its changed since I got mine.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 10 May 2013, 05:57:18
When I get/build my own, I'll try it out. In the meantime, I'll ask SmallFry if he can try it out.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 10 May 2013, 09:17:15
I'll look into it.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Glissant on Fri, 10 May 2013, 11:07:52
Another excellent review, CPTBadAss :D. Why do you always have to write about stuff so I want to get what you are writing about?
One day I will own this. Hopefully one that I put together myself =D. But first I imagine I have to invest in something better than my Shure SE315 in-ears to run off of this thing.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 10 May 2013, 12:33:36
Thanks ^__^  I'm just trying to live up to the WalletHack name Glissbro :P. If you want more headphone/earbud info, there's a Headphones thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38292.0) up and I always advocate for Grados. :D Hopefully you'll be able to upgrade something great soon and I want to see your build log of the CMoy!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:31:26
Damn, them some nice Grado's! Nice little amp too.  :)

(http://i.imgur.com/Usjhlcn.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/tIUbXcO.jpg)



Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:32:51
Aha! A browndog adapter! :P Why did you choose that opamp over others?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:36:54
Back up, can we explain to me what I'm looking at Lunartuna?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:40:21
The CMOY is not limited to JDS labs, there are multiple makers of CMOY PCBS.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:41:04
Aha! A browndog adapter! :P Why did you choose that opamp over others?

Honestly I bought it so long ago I don't remember. I'm guessing the maker said it would be best for the kinds of music I was listening to back then, mainly metal.

Back up, can we explain to me what I'm looking at Lunartuna?

Haha! That's a Go-Vibe V4 head-phone amp, I think only around 100 were made. This guy on Head-Fi was making them just for fun about 7 years ago before he moved on to bigger things. Good luck finding one now!  :p
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:42:47
Crazy, did some googling. Looks like there is a go-vibe company making amps.. wonder if its the same guy or if he sold the idea?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:45:13
The CMOY is not limited to JDS labs, there are multiple makers of CMOY PCBS.

But that's not what I was asking. What is a browndog adapter? A different type of OPAmp?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:47:23
Oh that.

It allows you to swap out op-amps without soldering.

http://cimarrontechnology.com/
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:48:06
Right, I found that link as well but I can't identify electronic components on sight and understand what they do yet :(

Thanks for clearing that up :D
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:50:31
Right, I found that link as well but I can't identify electronic components on sight and understand what they do yet :(

Thanks for clearing that up :D

Yeah I really have no idea which one it would be on that webpage either lol. I just use the thing!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:54:40
Some OPAmps do not come in a DIP format, thus you need to use an adapter to allow use of them. These adapters are called Browndog adapters. (http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=970601AS)
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sat, 11 May 2013, 09:59:01
Some OPAmps do not come in a DIP format, thus you need to use an adapter to allow use of them. These adapters are called Browndog adapters. (http://www.jdslabs.com/item.php?fetchitem=970601AS)

The person is smarter that me. Listen to his explanation over mine lol!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 11 May 2013, 10:02:55
I also see on the site that you posted that you can hook up two OPAmps into the same adapter. Interesting concept, I'd be interested to see how the sound quality differs.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 12 May 2013, 23:00:42
I've seen lots of keyboards with headphone jacks....wonder if a CMoy could be built into a keyboard?? I know....its late and I'm probably sleep typing again  ???
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Sun, 12 May 2013, 23:22:07
Stopped reading after Grado was called "high end".  I saw some pics of CMoy amps though.  I don't think anyone really needs these unless they're driving something with low sensitivity with something with low output.  Like planar magnetic headphones with a junky MP3 player.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 14 May 2013, 18:49:02
Sorry I'm not a audiophilie. The Grados are my first pair of nice headphones and the first time I used an amp. For me, it's high end and I thought that's what I read about. I have no idea what low sensitivity and low output means. Care to explain?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: dndlmx on Tue, 14 May 2013, 19:00:56
Stopped reading after Grado was called "high end".

Grado / Alessandro have some fancy models, maybe not like HD800 expensive. But still...what's wrong with Grado?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Tue, 14 May 2013, 19:57:43
Grado makes great headphones...
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:09:15
Grado are well known for their terrible price to performance ratio after the SR80s.  The more expensive Grados just use fancier materials but the same design. 
Drawbacks to the Grado design are uncomfortable supra-aural form (sits on the ear, instead of around the ear), hard painful bowl ear cushions for their higher end models, and earcups that swivel freely and twist up the cables.
They also lack soundstage (3D sound positioning), bass impact, and are slightly sibilant.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:12:12
But I have the 80s? And I think they're comfortable and I like the soundstage? Sorry we have different opinions but I'm not sure your opinion is justified by saying "are well known" and acting like you're some high-flung audiophile. I'll agree to disagree. ^__^
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:14:40
But I have the 80s? And I think they're comfortable and I like the soundstage? Sorry we have different opinions but I'm not sure your opinion is justified by saying "are well known" and acting like you're some high-flung audiophile. I'll agree to disagree. ^__^

I've compared the SR80 to many other headphones that I was in possession of at the same time.  Here is a list of the headphones I've compared: Sennheiser HD600 + Stefan AudioArt Equinox, Sennheiser HD650, Denon D2000, Beyerdynamic DT990 Premium 600 ohm, Beyerdynamic DT880 Premium 600 ohm, AKG K702, Bose Triport AE 1, Panasonic RP HT355, Stax SR Lambda Pro, Grado SR-60i, Grado SR-80i,  ViSang R02.

Check this out, it's a detailed review of most of the top headphones.  I agree 100% with the observations made about headphones I've listened to:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-57-headphones-compared-update-ultimate-ears-uerm-added-4-14-13
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:25:09
Oooo, knowledge bombs. See, we should've started off like this :D
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:29:33
Grados are still amazing for rock and metal, even if they don't stand up to the technicalities and dynamics of higher-end headphones. People don't buy grados looking for the best sound quality. And besides... grados are better than most of the crap that's being sold in stores nowadays.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:33:02
SR80i though has very good performance for its price. 
For open-back headphones for:
0-$60 I recommend Koss PortaPro
$60-200 I recommend Grado SR80i
$200-600 I recommend Sennheiser HD600
$600+ I haven't personally tried, but my top choice based on what I've read/heard are the Stax SR-009 which is like $10-15k with amp.

I love the transparent-ness of the upper-end Stax electrostatics.  The first time I put one on, I thought there were speakers playing at 10 feet around me.  Doesn't sound like it's coming from the headphones at all, the way the sound waves are positioned.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:35:06
Grados are still amazing for rock and metal, even if they don't stand up to the technicalities and dynamics of higher-end headphones. People don't buy grados looking for the best sound quality. And besides... grados are better than most of the crap that's being sold in stores nowadays.

True.  Though I do like good imaging, even for rock and metal.  I tend to only listen to the better recorded stuff.  Most rock/metal sounds like mud anyway, which is fine for Grado's lack of imaging.  The brightness also helps the muddiness sound a bit better as well. 
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Tue, 14 May 2013, 21:38:16
Those are very general recommendations though. Most of the population seems to like headphones that are warm and smooth. Then there are others like me who prefer the neutral, maybe slightly bright headphones. Then there are bassheads out there that want to shatter their skulls with bass.

I could add a few headphones that may suit other people for each of those catagories.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 14 May 2013, 22:00:07
I'd be interested in both "warm and smooth" and "neutral". Skull-shattering bass isn't up my alley. And I wub my metal ^__^.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Tue, 14 May 2013, 22:07:58
Budget? Do you have an amp? What do you use to play your music (source)? Open or closed (open headphones generally sound better if you're listening in a quiet environment)?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 14 May 2013, 22:17:22
Budget: ~$200
Amp: CMoy SoonTM
Source: My computer with with soundcard listed in the OP
Open
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Tue, 14 May 2013, 23:12:19
Those are very general recommendations though. Most of the population seems to like headphones that are warm and smooth. Then there are others like me who prefer the neutral, maybe slightly bright headphones. Then there are bassheads out there that want to shatter their skulls with bass.

I could add a few headphones that may suit other people for each of those catagories.

Everyone prefers neutral headphones.  If they don't, they haven't heard good headphones.  A basshead going from beats headphones to HD650 for instance would appreciate how much better the bass sounds and would no longer be a basshead.  Besides, they're not a real basshead if they're listening to headphones anyway.  They can still listen to bass-heavy songs.  They just won't be muddy sounding.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: dndlmx on Tue, 14 May 2013, 23:50:02
Grado are well known for their terrible price to performance ratio after the SR80s.

I'll keep this in mind. I've got some Alessandro MS-1, from what I understand they're basically SR80. I read they're good "bang for buck", at least in $100 tier. I'm not exactly an audiophile. And I've never shopped in the advanced tiers for Grado, or any headphone brand for that matter.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 08:31:06
I can say for sure that not everyone prefers neutral headphones. How do you explain the people who like LCD2s and 3s? The Audez'es are definitely not neutral, yet they're loved by so many people. Many of the TOTL CIEMs are definitely not neutral, but they're more popular than the CIEMs tuned to be neutral. Well I don't want to generalize bassheads, but I think bassheads consider themselves bassheads even though they listen to headphones. Some people appreciate the quantity over quality. It's good to have choices, isn't it?

Anyways, CPTBadAss,

ATH-AD700 - $100 - Spacious, open headphones. Fairly neutral, bass-light. Would probably be great for orchestral or instrumental music. Never heard it myself, so I can't say for sure. The headphones and pads are huge though, so it might not fit everyone

AKG K701/K702/Q701 - Slightly less than $200 if you buy used - Kind of similiar sound signature to the AD700, but slightly brighter and has better dynamics. Has velour pads, so they're very comfortable in that respect. The bumps on the headband might be uncomfortable though.

Hifiman HE-300 - Currently $100 @ J&R and out of stock, but you can still place an order - Warm and smooth sound signature with rolled off treble. Stock cable is microphonic though.

HD 598 - Can be found for less than $200 used - Mid centric, slightly bright. Low on bass impact.

DT 880/600 ohm - There's one on head-fi for $200 right now - Neutral, slightly bright. Best used with tube amps but might be driven fine with your cmoy. Extremely comfortable. Probably the most detailed out of everything here, along with the AKGs. They're fairly "fast", so they'll be great for metal along with the brightness.

Grado SR225i - $200 - An improvement over the sr80i but 2x the price. These will satisfy your metal cravings.

If we take into consideration closed headphones, then we can add:

dt770/80 ohm, ATH-A700X, and possibly a few others that I can't think of atm.

I hope that helps!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 15 May 2013, 09:14:55
Thanks for the recommendations thegunner. I'll have to head back to my local headphone shop soon and check some of those headphones out.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 09:44:26
I recently picked up AIAIAI TMA-1's they caught my eye based on their style and build quality as I was leaving a store (youll never guess where). I was passively looking for a more portable pair of headphones than my MDR-V6's for some time, you know something a bit smaller and a bit more durable. The TMA-1s far exceeded my expectations in both reguards and have great sound which surprised me because of where I found them. They do have a more pleasing sound than the V6's as well, which when on the go I seem to prefer. Anyways I really love them and theres kinda a fun story as to how I found and acquired them. I do have one problem though their impeadence is much too low for my DAC, the MDR-V6's had the same problem here also. I know I didnt buy them for this use but it would be nice to be able to use them here as well.



On a side not do NOT buy the studio version currently its basically the same headphone with different over the earcups. Which normally wouldnt be a bad thing except the better cups they ship with the regualrly fail and come apart even on the revised versions and since the original is a DJ headphone they wouldnt be considered flat. They are supposedly coming out with a revised studio version soonish, which will have different flatter sounding drivers and fixed earcups which im eagarly awaiting. I do hope though that the impeadance is higher so I can actually use it with my DAC which I dont see why they wouldnt/couldnt do since their going to use new/different drivers.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 15 May 2013, 09:46:41
Can you explain what a DAC is? I've heard it mentioned a lot but I'm not fully understanding what it is.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:05:59
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42650.0

"a DAC" usually refers to an ic that takes digital signals and then decodes them and extrapolates them into a analog signals. basically think square waves into the DAC IC and sinus waves out. this is often accomplished via a resistor ladder and the complexity and tolerances of the resistor ladder within the litho determines how accurate the IC Is. further, there are annoying aliasing effects happening all over the place that makes ICs of this type quite annoying to implement and gives them nasty side-effects like ringing etc.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:10:21
TheProfosist, do you mean your amp or music player? Usually you don't plug your headphones directly into a dac because it has very high output impedance (way more than suitable for any headphones). They are 32ohm so they're fairly low impedance, but not as low as IEMs. How is the impedance affecting your sound? Usually if the output impedance of your amp is too high for your headphones, your headphones will lose control of the bass. For balanced armature drivers, this will also affect the treble. Another thing would be that if your headphone impedance is low, then it will get loud very quickly, and that could be a problem with amps that have high gain. Also, low impedance or sensitive headphones are more prone to hiss or high floor noise due to the high gain as well. There are impedance adapters that you can use to increase the resistance. It'll lower the volume of your headphones but in return it will reduce the floor noise and hissing, but it can also slightly change the sound signature as well.

As a general rule, you want the impedance of your headphones to be at least 8x the output impedance of your amp. So if the output impedance of your amp is 10ohms, then you'll want to use headphones that have atleast 80ohms. Solid state amps generally have low output impedances (<1ohm) suitable for most headphones whereas tube amps have high output impedances suitable for high impedance headphones (250ohm or higher)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300453295797?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETYMOTIC-ER4P-TO-ER4S-RESISTOR-ADAPTOR-3-5MM-PLUG-/290372905689?pt=US_MP3_Player_Cables_Adapters&hash=item439b92ead9

 A DAC is a digital to analog converter. It converts your digital music (0s and 1s) into an analog (electrical) signal that can be processed and amplified by an amplifier. Motherboards have built-in DACs, sound cards are DACs and sometimes amplifiers, your phone has a DAC, and portable music players have a DAC. Usually a DAC refers to an external dedicated DAC. Getting a better dac will improve the sound quality that you get out of your headphones, but headphones always comes first for sound quality, then an amp, then a DAC. This is probably the cheapest, quality dac that you could buy:

http://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=83

Edit: Like mkawa said, a poorly implemented DAC will introduce hitter, distortion, etc.

Otherwise if you go up to $100, the Schiit Modi is a great dac that is amazing until you reach the $400+ range. Even then, you're better off upgrading your headphones or amp before a dac. Also take a look into the Schiit magni if you want a budget amp. It is also $100 and makes a great combo with the Modi. It has high enough enough output power to drive most headphones adequately. I have a Schiit
Asgard 2 coming in next week, which I have high expectations of.

http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=14
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:13:00
Well I think what I have now, ASUS Essence One, is a DAC+headphone amp in one or something, though I also use it to output to my Adam A5X's via XLR. Anyone have any idea on the impeadance issue? I know the highest Essence one has a switch for IEMs which would probably accomplish what I need but I could only get the lowest essence one, which besides that switch the only difference in the oamps.

EDIT: the issue I have using the MDR-V6's and TMA-1's with the essence one is that the volume levels go like this: click one=nothing, click two=fairly quiet, click there=loud, click four=quite loud, click five=very loud, anything above that for me is uncomfortable for extended listening. BTW im not ever through a quarter turn yet...
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:15:38
Well I think what I have now, ASUS Essence One, is a DAC+headphone amp in one or something, though I also use it to output to my Adam A5X's via XLR. Anyone have any idea on the impeadance issue? I know the highest Essence one has a switch for IEMs which would probably accomplish what I need but I could only get the lowest essence one, which besides that switch the only difference in the oamps.

The Asus Essence One has an output impedance of 10, which is way too high for the AIAIAI TMA-1 and MDR-V6.

Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:22:30
Well I think what I have now, ASUS Essence One, is a DAC+headphone amp in one or something, though I also use it to output to my Adam A5X's via XLR. Anyone have any idea on the impeadance issue? I know the highest Essence one has a switch for IEMs which would probably accomplish what I need but I could only get the lowest essence one, which besides that switch the only difference in the oamps.

The Asus Essence One has an output impedance of 10, which is way too high for the AIAIAI TMA-1 and MDR-V6.
yep :(
I did an update above with the specific problem in my previous post but your just way too nquick for me on mu phone.

I know the essence one muse has a switch on it for IEMs would this work for me and solve my problems? If so I wonder what or how its implemented. They also have a new external dac coming out which is lowere end that has a switch in it for lower impeadance headphones so I guess they realised not everyone has 600ohm headphones.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:24:27
I'm thinking about building an O2 and picking up either a DT-880, HE-400 or maybe HD-600s (all different sounds from what I've read)


Any thoughts on these or the amp?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:27:34
The IEM switch will most likely lower the gain of the amp's output. It should solve your volume problem, give it a try!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:27:57
I'd also like to know more about the O2. I've heard its the "proper" or upgraded version of the CMoy but I know little about it.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:38:30
I'm thinking about building an O2 and picking up either a DT-880, HE-400 or maybe HD-600s (all different sounds from what I've heard but they sound intriguing)


Any thoughts on these or the amp?
couldnt really tell you as ive never used a portable style amp. Stuff ive had has randged from highend soundblaster audigy, x-fi and what not to a Roland Edirol FA-66 I still have around, though it sees limited use since its firwire and thats actually quite uncommon on newer PCs. I also have a Focusrite Scarlette 2i4 which replaced the FA-66 for a short time since Roland said there werent going to make Win8 drivers, evertually they did so they must have gotten enough requests for it. Soon after that happened though I got my Essence One which is a huge step up. I wouldnt recommend the Scarlette 2i4 really unless that it you need something like that that is quite portable as it runs off a single USB port. Also unless your using ASIO it only runs as high as 16bit for some reason using the general windows driver (I didnt know this when I bought it) and all the inputs and outputs show up as one input and one output in windows, their all on accessible using the ASIO driver in a compatible program. The main reason I picked up the 2i4 was it was cheapish, did what I needed, and had Win8 support.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:40:46
The IEM switch will most likely lower the gain of the amp's output. It should solve your volume problem, give it a try!
:( I dont have the iem switch as its only on the muse edition of the essence one (stupid ikr) and i have the lowest model. I didnt think this was going to be a problem as I could just upgrade the oamps later when I had the monies.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:42:47
The IEM switch will most likely lower the gain of the amp's output. It should solve your volume problem, give it a try!
:( I dont have the iem switch as its only on the muse edition of the essence one (stupid ikr) and i have the lowest model. I didnt think this was going to be a problem as I could just upgrade the oamps later when I had the monies.

Ahh okay. Your best bet would be looking into the impedance adapters that I linked above. They're fairly inexpensive and they work very well. I have a 200ohm adapter for my gr07s.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:53:58
The O2 is a nice amp for its price. People have said that it's very neutral and will drive most headphones that you throw at it. Its main competitor is the schiit magni, which is only $100 and the two sound practically the same.

Like you said, the DT-880, HE-400, HD-600 all sound very different, but will be driven by either the O2 or the Magni. The dt880/600 I've personally owned and loved; they're very comfortable and have a neutral but slightly bright sound signature. They will work well with pretty much every genre except for bass-heavy music. Personally I think they have the best price/performance out of the three. The HE-400 i've only tried in a store with my headstage arrow and sansa fuze, but they're fairly comfortable with the velour pads and I liked what I heard through my portable setup. Im sure i'd like it more if I tried it with my home setup. They're said to be slightly bright, with silky smooth mids and bass. The HD600 i've never really got to try at all except at a very noisy store, with their equipment; but they're amazing from what i've read.

If you can try the three out before you buy, then definitely do that and pick the one with the sound signature that works for you.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 10:56:15
...I thought the O2 was a portable one shows how little I know or really care to know.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 11:00:34
Its more transportable than portable. I wouldnt want to strap a O2 to my DAP.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 15 May 2013, 11:27:08
gunner have you seen any good threads on headphones specific to exp metal/ drone doom/ shoegaze/ etc? I'd like to start there and see what I can find.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 11:36:24
The IEM switch will most likely lower the gain of the amp's output. It should solve your volume problem, give it a try!
:( I dont have the iem switch as its only on the muse edition of the essence one (stupid ikr) and i have the lowest model. I didnt think this was going to be a problem as I could just upgrade the oamps later when I had the monies.

Ahh okay. Your best bet would be looking into the impedance adapters that I linked above. They're fairly inexpensive and they work very well. I have a 200ohm adapter for my gr07s.

What size adapter would you recommend for my 32ohm headphones as it looks like the new studios will still be 32ohm as they were just announced here http://goo.gl/pQku9 which if their the overall improvement they said/say that it will be/is.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 12:29:19
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 13:29:29
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.

so they have a 6.35 to 6.35 as both of the headphones I currently have have built in adapter kinda I guess i could just leave them unscrewed. Also having it stick out like that is kinda odd and I would defined prefer more of a pigtail cable if you know what I mean. Though I have no clue is anyone offeres this sort of thing. Truthfully if id knew where to source the parts I may even be able to throw this thing together my self just reading from the ebay listing kinda what inside it. Also would you happen to know where i can find a high quality 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapter as all the ones ive found are cheaply built and seem to have 0 QC.  I need it For my Creative X-Fi HD USB as for some reason they choose to put 6.35mm jacks on the from for your headset while i at least dont know of any consumer headsets that would have that.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: swagpiratex on Wed, 15 May 2013, 13:46:22
I think that every manufacturer puts out a model that has a couple of strong points at each price range, so it's hard to recommend just one to everyone.

Given that OP listens to rock, I would rec the SR-80's, which he already has. I own the AD700/SR-80's/DT770s because they all serve a different purpose.  (Soundstage/Midrange/Bass, respectively).

Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 14:13:11
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.

so they have a 6.35 to 6.35 as both of the headphones I currently have have built in adapter kinda I guess i could just leave them unscrewed. Also having it stick out like that is kinda odd and I would defined prefer more of a pigtail cable if you know what I mean. Though I have no clue is anyone offeres this sort of thing. Truthfully if id knew where to source the parts I may even be able to throw this thing together my self just reading from the ebay listing kinda what inside it. Also would you happen to know where i can find a high quality 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapter as all the ones ive found are cheaply built and seem to have 0 QC.  I need it For my Creative X-Fi HD USB as for some reason they choose to put 6.35mm jacks on the from for your headset while i at least dont know of any consumer headsets that would have that.

The best one will be the adapter. Else you'd have to make your own or get someone else to.
http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Mini-Adaptor-Cable-Inch/dp/B001DK1ZVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738275&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+adapter

Or did you mean 6.35mm male to 3.5mm female? I think these are fine tbh but of course having a 6.35mm termination and then some cable length before 3.5mm female would be nice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Gold-Plated-Plug-Audio-Jack-Male-1-4-6-35mm-to-1-8-3-5mm-Female-Stereo-/160881574088?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item25754a00c8

Edit: wrong link for the grado adapter.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Wed, 15 May 2013, 17:18:33
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.

so they have a 6.35 to 6.35 as both of the headphones I currently have have built in adapter kinda I guess i could just leave them unscrewed. Also having it stick out like that is kinda odd and I would defined prefer more of a pigtail cable if you know what I mean. Though I have no clue is anyone offeres this sort of thing. Truthfully if id knew where to source the parts I may even be able to throw this thing together my self just reading from the ebay listing kinda what inside it. Also would you happen to know where i can find a high quality 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapter as all the ones ive found are cheaply built and seem to have 0 QC.  I need it For my Creative X-Fi HD USB as for some reason they choose to put 6.35mm jacks on the from for your headset while i at least dont know of any consumer headsets that would have that.

The best one will be the grado extension cable. Else you'd have to make your own or get someone else to.
http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Extension-Cable-4-57m-Headphone/dp/B0006DPNNK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368644349&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+extension

Or did you mean 6.35mm male to 3.5mm female? I think these are fine tbh but of course having a 6.35mm termination and then some cable length before 3.5mm female would be nice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Gold-Plated-Plug-Audio-Jack-Male-1-4-6-35mm-to-1-8-3-5mm-Female-Stereo-/160881574088?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item25754a00c8


Rip off.  A decent $2 cable will pass the same signal.  That's why we use $5 leads for $50,000 electronics testing equipment.  If you feel like increasing the resistance, add a $0.10 resistor.

I'm thinking about building an O2 and picking up either a DT-880, HE-400 or maybe HD-600s (all different sounds from what I've heard but they sound intriguing)


Any thoughts on these or the amp?
couldnt really tell you as ive never used a portable style amp. Stuff ive had has randged from highend soundblaster audigy, x-fi and what not to a Roland Edirol FA-66 I still have around, though it sees limited use since its firwire and thats actually quite uncommon on newer PCs. I also have a Focusrite Scarlette 2i4 which replaced the FA-66 for a short time since Roland said there werent going to make Win8 drivers, evertually they did so they must have gotten enough requests for it. Soon after that happened though I got my Essence One which is a huge step up. I wouldnt recommend the Scarlette 2i4 really unless that it you need something like that that is quite portable as it runs off a single USB port. Also unless your using ASIO it only runs as high as 16bit for some reason using the general windows driver (I didnt know this when I bought it) and all the inputs and outputs show up as one input and one output in windows, their all on accessible using the ASIO driver in a compatible program. The main reason I picked up the 2i4 was it was cheapish, did what I needed, and had Win8 support.

The HD600 is both more comfortable and neutral than the DT880, with MUCH better bass impact.  DT880 + percussion was weak like these guys who hurt their wrists using rubber domes and MX Black keys.  I haven't heard the HE-500, apparently it's the best headphone out there in terms of price/performance, the HD600 coming in 2nd place, and the DT880 coming in 4th. 

Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 18:31:44
May we know where we can get a $.10 resistor? And instructions on how to implement this resistor? The impedance adapter is useful for those who don't have the knowledge in DIY. At least it's not as outrageous as headphone cables and interconnects. I don't mean to scam anyone, I'm just giving a possible solution to a problem.

Neutral depends on what your reference is. The HD600 is warm with veiled trebles while the dt880 is light on bass while being bright. Whatever.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 15 May 2013, 18:34:30
Resistors are DIRT cheap, just FYI. They're less than a penny, IIRC at Digikey/Mouser. Not worth the shipping unless you buy at least 75+.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 22:28:49
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.

so they have a 6.35 to 6.35 as both of the headphones I currently have have built in adapter kinda I guess i could just leave them unscrewed. Also having it stick out like that is kinda odd and I would defined prefer more of a pigtail cable if you know what I mean. Though I have no clue is anyone offeres this sort of thing. Truthfully if id knew where to source the parts I may even be able to throw this thing together my self just reading from the ebay listing kinda what inside it. Also would you happen to know where i can find a high quality 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapter as all the ones ive found are cheaply built and seem to have 0 QC.  I need it For my Creative X-Fi HD USB as for some reason they choose to put 6.35mm jacks on the from for your headset while i at least dont know of any consumer headsets that would have that.

The best one will be the grado extension cable. Else you'd have to make your own or get someone else to.
http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Extension-Cable-4-57m-Headphone/dp/B0006DPNNK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368644349&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+extension

Or did you mean 6.35mm male to 3.5mm female? I think these are fine tbh but of course having a 6.35mm termination and then some cable length before 3.5mm female would be nice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Gold-Plated-Plug-Audio-Jack-Male-1-4-6-35mm-to-1-8-3-5mm-Female-Stereo-/160881574088?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item25754a00c8


cries so no ones makes any guess im going to have to solder up some of my own. I found a guide for the impedance adapter using resistors http://goo.gl/OQmfm now i just need to fimd somewhere to get dome nice cable and ends. did you want me to make you anything thegunner?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:03:23
Ran into a small problem I have 0 idea where I would even start to look to find highend "audiophile grade" DIY parts as I havnt tinkered with that sort of thing yet. Anyone here have any idea?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:15:42
crap all sounds the same for the most part. in terms of resistors, vishay 1%s are easier to match and may have measurably less noise if you have incredibly precise test equipment and edge up against their current limits, but meh. there are actually big measurable difference in capacitors in the signal path, but most reasonable audio amplifiers (and in particular the textbook cmoy or jung multiloop) only has DC coupling capacitors, and the common wima polyesters widely available via mouser and digikey sound fine. no need for fancy auricaps or whatever. for power supply reservoir capacitors, nichicons are fine. i mean seriously, there's no noise to suppress out of a battery, even the beefiest of opas isn't going to draw that much current with the craziest dynamic and lowest impedance phones you can think of.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:18:44
crap all sounds the same for the most part. in terms of resistors, vishay 1%s are easier to match and may have measurably less noise if you have incredibly precise test equipment and edge up against their current limits, but meh. there are actually big measurable difference in capacitors in the signal path, but most reasonable audio amplifiers (and in particular the textbook cmoy or jung multiloop) only has DC coupling capacitors, and the common wima polyesters widely available via mouser and digikey sound fine. no need for fancy auricaps or whatever. for power supply reservoir capacitors, nichicons are fine. i mean seriously, there's no noise to suppress out of a battery, even the beefiest of opas isn't going to draw that much current with the craziest dynamic and lowest impedance phones you can think of.

were you answering me? cause im just making 2 cables im more looking for wire, connectors, and sleeving currently...
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:24:46
what?e
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:32:04
Brian of BTG-Audio sells some of the wires  (http://btg-audio.com/webstore.htm#ecwid:category=2620180&mode=category&offset=0&sort=normal)that he uses  to make his own cables. They're very nice quality; I had my vsonic gr07 re-cabled by him with the clear copper wire. Otherwise I don't really know of any other wires.

He has a very nice picture of  plugs (http://www.btg-audio.com/build-a-cable) that people like to use. The brands are Furutech, Viablue, Oyaide, and Neutrik (cheapest). Again, I don't really know a good source for these but at least it'll give you an idea of what to look for.

I am actually very interested in getting a lightweight 6.35mm male to 3.5mm female extension cable made. I just love how the 6.35mm Oyaide jack looks xD.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:32:42
what?e

I know im totally off topic in this thread but one thing lead to another and yea...

but im looking to make an impedance adapter so my TMA-1's and MDR-V6's work properly with my ASUS Essence One 1/4in to 1/4in (pigtail style) and make some 1/4in to 3.5mm pgtails, should probably start a new thread shouldnt I...
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:34:53
wires and plugs have no audible effect or measurable effect, sorry.


** unless they're just straight up broken. that's why people go 1/4" or neutrik locking over 3.5mm. 3.5mm jacks just break constantly. SO MANY BROKEN PLUGS AKSJDLAKDJALKJSDASD
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Wed, 15 May 2013, 23:43:49
Wires and plugs don't have measurable effects, but the important thing is the aesthetics and the ergonomics of the plugs and cables. People who believe cables make a audible difference either have expectation bias, placebo effect, etc. It's ridiculous how much people charge for cables.

Edit: we've gone from CMoys to headphone recommendations to impedance adapters to DIY parts in this thread :x
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 16 May 2013, 00:13:46
wires and plugs have no audible effect or measurable effect, sorry.


** unless they're just straight up broken. that's why people go 1/4" or neutrik locking over 3.5mm. 3.5mm jacks just break constantly. SO MANY BROKEN PLUGS AKSJDLAKDJALKJSDASD

thus why i put audiophile grade in quotes. I dont think its a bad thing that i want to use nice wire, connectors, and sleeving. O i forgot nice heatshrink as well


Wires and plugs don't have measurable effects, but the important thing is the aesthetics and the ergonomics of the plugs and cables. People who believe cables make a audible difference either have expectation bias, placebo effect, etc. It's ridiculous how much people charge for cables.

Edit: we've gone from CMoys to headphone recommendations to impedance adapters to DIY parts in this thread :x

hmm well the last 2 fit together as I need the DIY parts to make the impedance adapter I need because they dont offer what im looking for. O and I also need that for my headphone recommendation? I dont know how we got off the Cmoy topic, hope it wasnt me (probably was).
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 00:13:51
Wires and plugs don't have measurable effects, but the important thing is the aesthetics and the ergonomics of the plugs and cables. People who believe cables make a audible difference either have expectation bias, placebo effect, etc. It's ridiculous how much people charge for cables.

Edit: we've gone from CMoys to headphone recommendations to impedance adapters to DIY parts in this thread :x

Ain't nobody got money for ergonomic plugs and cables.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 16 May 2013, 00:30:27
Wires and plugs don't have measurable effects, but the important thing is the aesthetics and the ergonomics of the plugs and cables. People who believe cables make a audible difference either have expectation bias, placebo effect, etc. It's ridiculous how much people charge for cables.

Edit: we've gone from CMoys to headphone recommendations to impedance adapters to DIY parts in this thread :x

Ain't nobody got money for ergonomic plugs and cables.
ergonomic im just looking for idk really really nice and possibly over kill for the heck of it since theyll be my first cable like this and their just short pigtails.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 07:41:38
Wires and plugs don't have measurable effects, but the important thing is the aesthetics and the ergonomics of the plugs and cables. People who believe cables make a audible difference either have expectation bias, placebo effect, etc. It's ridiculous how much people charge for cables.

Edit: we've gone from CMoys to headphone recommendations to impedance adapters to DIY parts in this thread :x

Ain't nobody got money for ergonomic plugs and cables.

Why do you even bother responding to my posts?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 08:16:21
TheGunner, Pointyfox knows all about audio equipment. That's the jist of what I've learned in this thread. I shouldn't have even wrote this review because I could've just asked him.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 08:34:01
TheGunner, Pointyfox knows all about audio equipment. That's the jist of what I've learned in this thread. I shouldn't have even wrote this review because I could've just asked him.

That's questionable... but there's no need to make pointless posts/troll while i'm just trying to be helpful.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 08:35:30
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 08:44:12
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.

Ahh okay xD

TheProfosist, check out Toxic Cable's ebay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Toxic-Cables/_i.html?rt=nc&_sid=161256920&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1513&_pgn=1). They're very well known and respected in the head-fi DIY community and i've seen some pretty good cables made from their parts. They have the Furutech, Viablue, and Oyaide 6.35mm plugs as well as various wires.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 16 May 2013, 13:11:27
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.
ive been trolling? I mean I know I was off topic but ive never trolled in me life sir, I swear.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 16 May 2013, 13:12:04
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.

Ahh okay xD

TheProfosist, check out Toxic Cable's ebay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Toxic-Cables/_i.html?rt=nc&_sid=161256920&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1513&_pgn=1). They're very well known and respected in the head-fi DIY community and i've seen some pretty good cables made from their parts. They have the Furutech, Viablue, and Oyaide 6.35mm plugs as well as various wires.
whoo ill check it out and resport back maybe this time making a new thread?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 13:12:50
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.
ive been trolling? I mean I know I was off topic but ive never trolled in me life sir, I swear.

PointyFox, not you Prof.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 15:40:02
I was being sarcastic  ;D

You've been more than helpful while he's been trolling this pretty hard.
ive been trolling? I mean I know I was off topic but ive never trolled in me life sir, I swear.

PointyFox, not you Prof.

If anyone's been trolling, it is thegunner100 for recommending ridiculous things like $40 "ergonomic" cables.

Anyone who says they're an audiophile is questionable.  10% of the audiophile community are suckers with bad hearing, 2 % actually know what they're talking about, and the other 88% are smart people who create fake reviews and overpriced products to pawn off on the 10% while calling the 2% trolls. 

Check this out: http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

It's a box that's black.  It costs $1,323.  They recommend buying multiples and placing them around your audio equipment.  They even have some scientology description of why it works.  Since I am an engineer, I was able to translate it.  Here's my translation: "It works because since they're black, they absorb more reflected sunlight than other non-black objects, thereby keeping the light reflections away from your audio equipment which they claim makes an audible difference in your music."

Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 15:42:48
Don't get too mad, it's ok. We need trolls too. I mean it only took 5 posts to get a decent answer out of you. I guess thegunner is allowed 5 **** ups too.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 15:49:22
Don't get too mad, it's ok. We need trolls too. I mean it only took 5 posts to get a decent answer out of you. I guess thegunner is allowed 5 **** ups too.

Looks like you were the troll all along.  All my posts have been helpful. 
By all means, go waste your money and ignore me.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 15:50:50
Yeah you're right. You know everything about audio equipment. Please listen to music for me.

It was really nice talking to you, good bye.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 15:52:00
Yeah you're right. You know everything about audio equipment. Please listen to music for me.

It was really nice talking to you, good bye.

I never said I know everything about audio equipment,  though I have spend thousands comparing many high end headphones in addition to talking with audio engineers about them for several years.  I can say I do know much more than you do about them since you made this thread to ask basic questions about them in the first place.   You're just trying to make me look bad by telling me what I am, what I think, and how I act.  And no, you can't dismiss me.  This is a public board.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:00:32
He can ignore you. There's a forum feature.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:01:35
He can ignore you. There's a forum feature.

Then he should do so silently, otherwise it's just more trolling.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Dubsgalore on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:03:12
He can ignore you. There's a forum feature.

Then he should do so silently, otherwise it's just more trolling.

when was he trolling?
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:06:43
I don't think anyone here has claimed that they're an audiophile, nor has anyone here claimed that cables or other components have a measurable effect (except for impedance adapters). So what does the Blackbody have to do with anything? I don't believe i've actually recommended any $40 cables; is there something wrong with wanting to have an ergonomic cable that won't tangle or have memory effect, or good build quality so that it doesn't break?

In page 3 I accidentally linked the grado extension cable. I meant to link the adapter (http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Mini-Adaptor-Cable-Inch/dp/B001DK1ZVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738275&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+adapter).
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:08:04
He can ignore you. There's a forum feature.

Then he should do so silently, otherwise it's just more trolling.

when was he trolling?

Leave this to the moderators.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:09:05
I don't think anyone here has claimed that they're an audiophile, nor has anyone here claimed that cables or other components have a measurable effect (except for impedance adapters). So what does the Blackbody have to do with anything? I don't believe i've actually recommended any $40 cables; is there something wrong with wanting to have an ergonomic cable that won't tangle or have memory effect, or good build quality so that it doesn't break?

In page 3 I accidentally linked the grado extension cable. I meant to link the adapter (http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Mini-Adaptor-Cable-Inch/dp/B001DK1ZVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738275&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+adapter).

I saw your link to the $40 cable and warned him about overpriced cables and "audiophile grade" things.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Dubsgalore on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:10:29
He can ignore you. There's a forum feature.

Then he should do so silently, otherwise it's just more trolling.

when was he trolling?

Leave this to the moderators.

o.O
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:11:07
I still don't see where I've actually recommended a $40 cable anywhere in this thread.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:14:10
I would recommend getting the 200ohm 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter. the 200 will work well with the low impedance cans, bringing them to around ~250 or so. Around 250 or 300ohm is ideal for the max power output of tube amps too.

so they have a 6.35 to 6.35 as both of the headphones I currently have have built in adapter kinda I guess i could just leave them unscrewed. Also having it stick out like that is kinda odd and I would defined prefer more of a pigtail cable if you know what I mean. Though I have no clue is anyone offeres this sort of thing. Truthfully if id knew where to source the parts I may even be able to throw this thing together my self just reading from the ebay listing kinda what inside it. Also would you happen to know where i can find a high quality 6.35mm to 3.5mm adapter as all the ones ive found are cheaply built and seem to have 0 QC.  I need it For my Creative X-Fi HD USB as for some reason they choose to put 6.35mm jacks on the from for your headset while i at least dont know of any consumer headsets that would have that.

The best one will be the adapter. Else you'd have to make your own or get someone else to.
http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Mini-Adaptor-Cable-Inch/dp/B001DK1ZVO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368738275&sr=8-1&keywords=grado+adapter

Or did you mean 6.35mm male to 3.5mm female? I think these are fine tbh but of course having a 6.35mm termination and then some cable length before 3.5mm female would be nice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Gold-Plated-Plug-Audio-Jack-Male-1-4-6-35mm-to-1-8-3-5mm-Female-Stereo-/160881574088?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item25754a00c8

Edit: wrong link for the grado adapter.

It was this one when you accidentally linked a Grado extension cable before you edited it.  It was similar to this one, but I think was a shorter length: http://www.amazon.com/Grado-Extension-Cable-4-57m-Headphone/dp/B0006DPNNK/ref=pd_bxgy_MI_img_z
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:16:09
Okay... so it's $60 but did I claim anything other than it was an extension cable? I linked the wrong item in the first place. My bad.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: PointyFox on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:20:45
Okay... so it's $60 but did I claim anything other than it was an extension cable? I linked the wrong item in the first place. My bad.

I just warned him about overpriced stuff. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were a crazy audiophile.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 16 May 2013, 16:29:02
Ok so are we done in here?  Let's just play nice and talk about keybo^H^H^H^Haudio equipment.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: rknize on Thu, 16 May 2013, 17:30:46
Returning back to the OP ---> that is a pleasant review of the CMoy.  As with a lot of the chip amp DIY designs, much of the "magic" is just giving the amplifier IC a clean, solid power supply and quiet environment to do it's job.  The support circuitry around the IC is where most consumer grade electronics manufacturers cut corners to save a few cents here and there.  That is how the same chip used in a poor-sounding device can be turned into a great sounding DIY project.

To throw in my two cents about headphones: I recently picked up a pair of the HD-650s off of eBay.  I've also owned a pair of Sennheiser HD-558 for a year or so (with the pads removed from the inside to supposedly make them more like the 598).  While the HD-650 has a really open sound with great low and high extension, the HD-558 is quite competitive.  The 558 is a bit warmer and doesn't quite have as much extension or imaging, but they are really nice.  On a budget, it's pretty tough to justify the cost of the 650.

For more opinions on headphones (like keyboards and switches, a very personal choice), check out the Headphone Thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13775.0)
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Sniping on Thu, 16 May 2013, 17:33:55
I think the price of the HD650 is a bit deceiving. Though they're $500, which isn't THAT bad, they need an amp that costs about the price of the phone to really make them sing. They sound alright with a cheaper amp like an E17, but they scale very well with better amps like the Bottlehead Crack and Lyr.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 17:35:46
The problem with the Sennheiser's in general is their strict MSRP pricing policy. A few years back, the HD600 and 650 were much more affordable than they are now. And yes, part of the costs that people sometimes don't consider is the cost of getting a decent amp for them.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: jwaz on Thu, 16 May 2013, 17:36:01
I think the price of the HD650 is a bit deceiving. Though they're $500, which isn't THAT bad, they need an amp that costs about the price of the phone to really make them sing. They sound alright with a cheaper amp like an E17, but they scale very well with better amps like the Bottlehead Crack and Lyr.

I've read they work just fine with an O2

Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: rknize on Thu, 16 May 2013, 18:17:30
The 650s sound great on the Matrix-I and not too bad on the E17 either.  I got mine used...I couldn't swallow paying MSRP for them.  For the money, they don't have the best build quality either (compared to a DT880, for example).

But yes, they can be a bit tough for a low voltage amp to drive properly.  The HD-558s are more conventional in that sense as well.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: SmallFry on Thu, 16 May 2013, 18:22:04
Figured this should go here since I picked it up today (finally) for my CMOY.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9ZoBFEldKqo/UZVlJmvTLVI/AAAAAAAABIM/-xLeyT2CBUQ/s576/DSCF2207.JPG@)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GiYe7OLTW4k/UZVlbwRkaRI/AAAAAAAABIY/aI4CFErY_wk/s576/DSCF2208.JPG)
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 16 May 2013, 18:40:47
I'm trying to finish the same tin of Altoids for my future CMoy Smallfry! ^__^

And what's everyone's opinion on the O2? Just curious to hear thoughts
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: thegunner100 on Thu, 16 May 2013, 18:45:21
I'm trying to finish the same tin of Altoids for my future CMoy Smallfry! ^__^

And what's everyone's opinion on the O2? Just curious to hear thoughts

I will direct you to the best comparison between the O2 and the magni:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/642401/comparison-and-review-magni-modi-vs-o2-odac
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Lunartuna on Sun, 19 May 2013, 09:44:26
I paid $100 dollars for my Grados, for that price range, they are great. Very comfortable on my head. Near perfect amount of bass for my preference.

 I also have some HD 280 pro's which are great except sometimes they feel like a vice on my head and have a lot more bass.

I have some pc161's for gaming. They are decent sound quality imo with a great mic(at least that's what i'm told on voice coms) although I'm thinking of trying something different.

I've driven them all with an m-audio firewire 410, a profire 610, a go-vibe and various mp3 players, phones, and pc's throughout the years. Although currently I'm just using a xonar DG which actually has a decent headphone amp built in and the simulated surround sound software is fun to play with because you can move each virtual speaker around the "room" just by dragging and dropping.

I've been trying sub $150 dollar headphones for a long time. These are just the ones I prefer. I don't rely on other people to tell me what sounds good. That would just be ridiculous.
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 19 May 2013, 09:50:30
alessandro MS1s and a cmoy with low gain and high current delivery (maybe an LM chip?) is cheap audio bliss for modern pop and rock music :D
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: Binge on Mon, 20 May 2013, 18:20:06
Going to be testing out the Roland Tri-Capture with some pretty average monitoring headphones sometime soon.  Not to re-direct the thread, but I feel like I'm not the only one here driving nice headphones with an audio interface.  People who stream/podcast should look into an interface!
Title: Re: CMoy Amplifier
Post by: davkol on Sat, 25 May 2013, 15:50:54
Has anyone tried CMoy with higher-impendance headphones? In particular, I have HD 25-13 (small 600 Ohm drivers) and DT 990 Pro (250 Ohm) in mind. Both should be rather easy to drive (I use HD 25-13 with my phone without any amplification, and a friend of mine regularly listens to DT990s connected directly into an iPad).