Has the HHKB been the closest to "Endgame" at GH?

[Tangtawan]

Not at all.

[digi]

HHKB is entry level

[happylacquer]

HHKB is entry level

Sad but true 

[ac2531]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Junior full-stack developer. Couldn't imagine using anything smaller than a HHKB, but I don't miss dedicated arrow or F-row keys at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ac2531]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Senior full-stack web developer.

Interesting.  Where do you have things like brackets and parenthesis set or are you simply using languages that don't make much use of such things?  As a UNIX/Linux admin that deals with Ruby and Puppet, I would be continually frustrated having most of those right-hand non-alpha characters off on another layer.  At a 60% board size, I at least continue to get all the necessities even if the F keys are on another layer.  Dropping smaller than that begins to may a lot more layout changes and requires important-to-me keys on layers.

Brackets and parenthesis are in the same location as any other keyboard. The only thing that's different for the right hand is the ` and | keys being swapped with backspace, which makes infinitely more sense to me.


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[zslane]

HHKB is entry level

Thanks to the non-standard right-side layout changes, you can't transfer a standard set of Topre Hi-Pro keycaps over to an HHKB. Hence there's no practical way to upgrade an HHKB from entry-level toy to something more professional and suitable for adults. 

[robbles]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Senior full-stack web developer.

Interesting.  Where do you have things like brackets and parenthesis set or are you simply using languages that don't make much use of such things?  As a UNIX/Linux admin that deals with Ruby and Puppet, I would be continually frustrated having most of those right-hand non-alpha characters off on another layer.  At a 60% board size, I at least continue to get all the necessities even if the F keys are on another layer.  Dropping smaller than that begins to may a lot more layout changes and requires important-to-me keys on layers.

Brackets and parenthesis are in the same location as any other keyboard. The only thing that's different for the right hand is the ` and | keys being swapped with backspace, which makes infinitely more sense to me.

Further proof that a chunk of the HHKB haters have never used the board or are just hating to jump on the hate train. 

[chyros]

The HHKB is what people finally admit regretting buying after 2 years of oppressed buyer's remorse of paying platinum for a tiny piece of rubber and plastic .

[robbles]

The HHKB is what people finally admit regretting buying after 2 years of oppressed buyer's remorse of paying platinum for a tiny piece of rubber and plastic .

Haha there is some truth to this. Still, saying the HHKB is "endgame" on Geekhack is pretty crazy. There's so much out there to try and like its impossible to just pick one.

[zslane]

Further proof that a chunk of the HHKB haters have never used the board or are just hating to jump on the hate train. 

Until I can get a full set of spherical keycaps on it, I never will use the board, and will forever ride the hate train on that basis alone. 

[happylacquer]

Yeah I am not buying that a single HHKB user hasn't remapped or wanted to remap the ` and | keys. Those are in just such stupid positions.

If you don't miss arrow keys, the ins/home/del/end/pg cluster, and the numpad, then sure a 60% or hhkb is probably fine for you to do whatever. hhkb has the advantage of your hands never moving, but at that point, idk why you don't just use an advantage.

In fact my main reason for not still using an Advantage for everything, every day, is that I actually use the F buttons all the time. No matter what OS i'm working in, I inevitably use or SSH to machines where i need it. And I like entering numbers on the numpad. You can't possibly tell me it doesn't suck to type in a lot of numbers on the top row as opposed to reaching over and smashin' the good old numpad.

I am a linux sys admin and am in control of a few rooms' worth of gear in a datacenter, so I'm scripting or command line diving at least 3/4 of the time.

IF you work with a 40% and your job isn't replying to customer service emails all day what are you doing?

[Niomosy]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Senior full-stack web developer.

Interesting.  Where do you have things like brackets and parenthesis set or are you simply using languages that don't make much use of such things?  As a UNIX/Linux admin that deals with Ruby and Puppet, I would be continually frustrated having most of those right-hand non-alpha characters off on another layer.  At a 60% board size, I at least continue to get all the necessities even if the F keys are on another layer.  Dropping smaller than that begins to may a lot more layout changes and requires important-to-me keys on layers.

Brackets and parenthesis are in the same location as any other keyboard. The only thing that's different for the right hand is the ` and | keys being swapped with backspace, which makes infinitely more sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See, the \| being moved further out of reach as a UNIX admin makes me twitch nervously.  I use it far more than I use a backspace, to be honest.  As to the others, I'm guessing you're using a larger keyboard then as most of the 40% type boards I see drop some of the brackets or such in order to condense the board further.  That brings me back to my question; what's the layout of your sub-60% board, then?

[ac2531]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Senior full-stack web developer.

Interesting.  Where do you have things like brackets and parenthesis set or are you simply using languages that don't make much use of such things?  As a UNIX/Linux admin that deals with Ruby and Puppet, I would be continually frustrated having most of those right-hand non-alpha characters off on another layer.  At a 60% board size, I at least continue to get all the necessities even if the F keys are on another layer.  Dropping smaller than that begins to may a lot more layout changes and requires important-to-me keys on layers.

Brackets and parenthesis are in the same location as any other keyboard. The only thing that's different for the right hand is the ` and | keys being swapped with backspace, which makes infinitely more sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See, the \| being moved further out of reach as a UNIX admin makes me twitch nervously.  I use it far more than I use a backspace, to be honest.  As to the others, I'm guessing you're using a larger keyboard then as most of the 40% type boards I see drop some of the brackets or such in order to condense the board further.  That brings me back to my question; what's the layout of your sub-60% board, then?

I don't have one. I use a HHKB and a WhiteFox that is mapped with the HHKB's function layer.

I misread your post and thought you were talking about HHKB's layout instead of 40%.


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[ac2531]

Yeah I am not buying that a single HHKB user hasn't remapped or wanted to remap the ` and | keys. Those are in just such stupid positions.

If you don't miss arrow keys, the ins/home/del/end/pg cluster, and the numpad, then sure a 60% or hhkb is probably fine for you to do whatever. hhkb has the advantage of your hands never moving, but at that point, idk why you don't just use an advantage.

HHKB user, have never wanted to remap either of those keys.

I don't use an Advantage for a multitude of reasons. It's huge, fantastically ugly (I love the HHKB's aesthetic; call me vain, but that's important to me), and doesn't have Topre switches.


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[noisyturtle]

Topre is just eclipsed by MX in customization they aren't even playing the same game. You can do what, put some dental equipment in your caps? It's difficult just finding key cap sets for the damn things, you almost have more options with Alps boards. So unless your imagination is limited by a, let's face it, barebones minimal board made by some company with little to no options for any change in the future then by all means enjoy your feeling.

Topre artisan game is on point though.

[SpAmRaY]

Further proof that a chunk of the HHKB haters have never used the board or are just hating to jump on the hate train. 

Until I can get a full set of spherical keycaps on it, I never will use the board, and will forever ride the hate train on that basis alone. 

But this doesn't look so bad

https://imgur.com/a/kPMDT#lTryd0L

And this is pure awesome

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4u2hnb/my_carbon_sa_hhkb/

[romevi]

Yes.

[Niomosy]

I use this as proof that extraterrestrials walk among us, because people who use tiny little toy keyboards (like the HHKB) as their main drivers are an alien species AFAIC. 

I tend to wonder what these people do for a living that don't at least need a 60% board.  I could get by on a 60% but love my F and arrow keys enough that I don't really want to sacrifice.  I'm just thinking of the ergonomic strain of having to 2-key or 3-key combo it just to input numbers or other symbols not on the primary layer of those small boards.

Senior full-stack web developer.

Interesting.  Where do you have things like brackets and parenthesis set or are you simply using languages that don't make much use of such things?  As a UNIX/Linux admin that deals with Ruby and Puppet, I would be continually frustrated having most of those right-hand non-alpha characters off on another layer.  At a 60% board size, I at least continue to get all the necessities even if the F keys are on another layer.  Dropping smaller than that begins to may a lot more layout changes and requires important-to-me keys on layers.

Brackets and parenthesis are in the same location as any other keyboard. The only thing that's different for the right hand is the ` and | keys being swapped with backspace, which makes infinitely more sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See, the \| being moved further out of reach as a UNIX admin makes me twitch nervously.  I use it far more than I use a backspace, to be honest.  As to the others, I'm guessing you're using a larger keyboard then as most of the 40% type boards I see drop some of the brackets or such in order to condense the board further.  That brings me back to my question; what's the layout of your sub-60% board, then?

I don't have one. I use a HHKB and a WhiteFox that is mapped with the HHKB's function layer.

I misread your post and thought you were talking about HHKB's layout instead of 40%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That makes more sense.  60% boards are pretty much the minimal functional keyboard.  It's smaller than that where I start wondering what people are using them for. 

[zslane]

Further proof that a chunk of the HHKB haters have never used the board or are just hating to jump on the hate train. 

Until I can get a full set of spherical keycaps on it, I never will use the board, and will forever ride the hate train on that basis alone. 

But this doesn't look so bad

https://imgur.com/a/kPMDT#lTryd0L

And this is pure awesome

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4u2hnb/my_carbon_sa_hhkb/

I guess you can get pretty close if you take the HHKB apart and replace all its sliders, and then make your own spacebar that matches the color of your spherical set. I don't find that remotely acceptable, however.

And where can I buy a Hi-Pro keycap set that will fit the HHKB like that? And how many colors does it come in? (Answers: nowhere, and one)

I think the notion of being able to pick and choose between various custom spherical keycap sets for the HHKB is getting lost in translation here somehow.

[menuhin]

Further proof that a chunk of the HHKB haters have never used the board or are just hating to jump on the hate train. 

Until I can get a full set of spherical keycaps on it, I never will use the board, and will forever ride the hate train on that basis alone. 

But this doesn't look so bad

https://imgur.com/a/kPMDT#lTryd0L

And this is pure awesome

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4u2hnb/my_carbon_sa_hhkb/

...

And where can I buy a Hi-Pro keycap set that will fit the HHKB like that? And how many colors does it come in? (Answers: nowhere, and one)

I think the notion of being able to pick and choose between various custom spherical keycap sets for the HHKB is getting lost in translation here somehow.

Perhaps in Mechmarket?
Or from Japan, but you have to scrap the host keyboard, or hope someone will buy the resulting barebone Topre keyboard.

[katushkin]

Can of worms: opened.

I don't like topre. I have typed on HHKBs and Realforces a number of times and I just can't get along with it. Maybe it's because I love tactile switches and I don't reel that topre is very tactile. Maybe it's because I was only typing on 45g and I prefer heavier switches.

For me, I have not yet discovered endgame. I have some things in the works which will hopefully end my quest, but until I get those sorted I cannot be sure. The HHKB is not one of those things however and I don't think I will ever buy one or a topre board at all.

On another note, I can't get along with the layout. I struggled with a normal 60% board, so I really don't think I could do any better with a HHKB layout.

[happylacquer]

Can of worms: opened.

I don't like topre. I have typed on HHKBs and Realforces a number of times and I just can't get along with it. Maybe it's because I love tactile switches and I don't reel that topre is very tactile. Maybe it's because I was only typing on 45g and I prefer heavier switches.

For me, I have not yet discovered endgame. I have some things in the works which will hopefully end my quest, but until I get those sorted I cannot be sure. The HHKB is not one of those things however and I don't think I will ever buy one or a topre board at all.

On another note, I can't get along with the layout. I struggled with a normal 60% board, so I really don't think I could do any better with a HHKB layout.

Maybe you need to try a Unicomp or M with clean new caps out and see how you like buckling springs? 

I was unsure whether I liked heavy MX or Topre better. Had 45 g Topre, went to 55g, still wasn't heavy enough! but i love the actuation feel of topre - heavy at first and then light and smooth.

Then again i'm the guy trying to buy 150g or heavier springs for all my model M's, so there's that too.

[fanpeople]

Yes.

Yes

[menuhin]

... I love tactile switches and I don't reel that topre is very tactile...

Although I like Topre switches, I can attest to this: Topre switches are not very tactile but it depends on how one defines tactility.
Feeling of the collapse of rubber dome after passing the peak is quite clear, but the increase of force to press until peak of the force curve is very much quite round.

If one wants the feeling of hitting the curb while driving: to me, MX browns give me this key press feel. MX blues are tiny bit better but feel quite similar. MX clear / ErgoClear / Zealios have their 'bump' quite earlier than the browns and the blues and the bump is much clearer. Having that said the Alps switches have their 'bump' almost from the beginning of key press, it is just that they're sometimes not smooth due to condition or having a newer design and the key binding can be different when one hits a key from different angles.
When compared until the Haarta's key gauge, Topre switches have the smoothest measured curve among all switches. After all, Topre are just rubber dome switches, or to be precise, non-contact capacitive switches with rubber dome moving mechanism.

There is no 'End-game' as long as a person is still posting / reading / lurking on any keyboard related forum.
But when asked what is 'ideal', HHKB is for sure far from ideal because most people's ideal is quite difficult to reach to begin with.

[katushkin]

Maybe you need to try a Unicomp or M with clean new caps out and see how you like buckling springs? 

I actually have two Ms and an SSK. I love buckling spring but I can't say it's practical for all the uses I need a keyboard for. They are fantastic to type on, but I can't game on them to save my life.

There is no 'End-game' as long as a person is still posting / reading / lurking on any keyboard related forum.
But when asked what is 'ideal', HHKB is for sure far from ideal because most people's ideal is quite difficult to reach to begin with.

This is actually what I fear. I don't want any more boards. I just want the ones i'm waiting on, then that's it. But I have to stick around to do KOTM, and talk to all you cool peeps and I don't want to be drawn in to GBs or classifieds...

[menuhin]

I believe there is no way to avoid activities related to the 'game' as long as one is still in it, but it doesn't matter.
It's like telling one's wife / girlfriend, "Honey, you are definitely my last woman" but then remains as the CEO of, say, PlayBoy enterprise.

It seems to me that those who are here for a really long time and still active are in one form or another doing some sort of business, possibly (or not) making some money out of this hobby from the community, alongside when they search for some 'ideals'. And by existing in this way, they're not exactly (just) looking for 'End-game', and these added activities give them a good balance to stay here.
A few examples: Hasu, Matt3o, BunnyLake.
They can be either full time, or have enough spare time for the hobby, or can manage their time (work, family, hobbies, friends etc) really well.
But even they will grow tired one day.

[keytohopiness]

Yes.

Yes

Yes

[zslane]

katushkin makes a good observation: not all methods of delivering tactility feel the same. It all comes down to what kind of tactile response you like. I like the feel and sound of Topre a lot. I hate the feel and sound of buckling spring a lot. Tactile click leaves are somewhere in between for me, I guess. At the end of the day, I don't want my switches to click, or even have the sensation of a click. I'd much rather they have a soft pop instead.

For folks who like tactile switches but don't like Topre, I am curious where their expectations for what a tactile switch "should" feel like comes from.

[Snowdog993]

katushkin makes a good observation: not all methods of delivering tactility feel the same. It all comes down to what kind of tactile response you like. I like the feel and sound of Topre a lot. I hate the feel and sound of buckling spring a lot. Tactile click leaves are somewhere in between for me, I guess. At the end of the day, I don't want my switches to click, or even have the sensation of a click. I'd much rather they have a soft pop instead.

For folks who like tactile switches but don't like Topre, I am curious where their expectations for what a tactile switch "should" feel like comes from.

Like it's meant to be.
http://snowdog993.imgur.com/

[zslane]

Right, but where did you obtain the notion that IBM-style keyboards represent "proper" tactility?

[Niomosy]

I find myself a bit odd in that I heavily prefer linear switches but, of the tactile switches, I much prefer BS to MX blues.  Browns are a mild enough tactile switch that I can use them, mostly treating them like reds.

[Tom_Kazansky]

For folks who like tactile switches but don't like Topre, I am curious where their expectations for what a tactile switch "should" feel like comes from.

I like tactile feel at the actuation point (that's the reason why I don't like Topre)
and they must be pronounced enough to make me stop pressing the button.

I don't like Brown switches because I hardly feel the tactile at all. (they feel like red for me, lol)
---
recently my order of Zealio arrived and the tactile feel is satisfying for me  , I will use this for my office.

at home, I prefer clicky switches.

[Snowdog993]

Right, but where did you obtain the notion that IBM-style keyboards represent "proper" tactility?

Perhaps you should talk to someone who knows more about IBM keyboards.

[Data]

HHKB users confess their love for it LOUDLY and often.

I'm not a Topre fan and I find 60% layouts entirely unusable, so obviously there's nothing remotely end-game about the HHKB for me. To each his own I guess.

[rowdy]

I have one HHK and 2 SSKB, none of which are end game.

I'd still like to try a 55g uniform RealForce - that might be my end game, simply because I have run out of money.

[SBJ]

I think what's been written about them being vocal is true, or passionate might be another word, I don't know.

I think some people reach their end game and some don't.
I am nowhere near though, I have a bunch of switches to try out before the moon gets to me and I have to figure out what to put in it.

[menuhin]

HHKB users confess their love for it LOUDLY and often.

I'm not a Topre fan and I find 60% layouts entirely unusable, so obviously there's nothing remotely end-game about the HHKB for me. To each his own I guess.

75% with Round 5/6 caps and VE.A ...
Those are way better but much more expensive.

I recently sold many items in my 'collection' but still keep the HHKB Pro2 because it is relatively a "whole package".

[SpectreiiI]

I would say that HHKB is the antithesis of endgame. I love the board, but it's almost easier (and cheaper) to build an entirely different custom board with an HHKB layout than it is to customize an HHKB. No-game would be more fitting.

[hapakey]

Yes.

Yes

Yes

Doubt it

[DaBubbs]

Of course (as many have pointed out), endgame is too relative and there never be a consensus.

Looking at existing keyboards, the RF 87U 55g is my endgame. It has everything I want and was looking for with a premium keyboard. Just my opinion of course.

If I had a HHKB, it'd be my endgame... I'd get so frustrated having to use so many key combinations to do anything, it wouldn't be long till I'd thrown it out the window and vowed never to type again.

I understand HHKBs about as much as I understand deejays being considered entertainers. Except deejays don't make you do a whole bunch of extra work just so you can have something small and cute on your desk.

That is what eventually drove me away from the HHKB. I was simply so much more productive on my RF 87U. I also like the heavier 55g switches on the metal plate of the RF.

Oh, and...

Yes.

Yes

Yes

Yes!

[DaBubbs]

Oh, and if we are talking about current / existing customized endgame keyboard, I would say the one I am currently putting together: A black 55g RF 87U with purple silent sliders, PBT spacebar, white alpha keycaps, and grey modifier keycaps with some red accent modifier keycaps. Also, I make my Capslock a second Control.

[Joey Quinn]

While HHKBs are great I wouldn't consider them endgame.

Best stock board ever is a 55g AE 87u, looks amazing and requires no modding to feel great.

[SpectreiiI]

Right, but where did you obtain the notion that IBM-style keyboards represent "proper" tactility?

No notions or representations here. I come from the world of telemetry, and a signal that has a sharper amplitude differential is easier to read.

The point of tactility is to signal the user that the keystroke has registered. The switch with a stexperience curve leading to and following registry is unequivocally more tactile.

This isn'the an opinion. This is the entire Scientific basis of control inputs.

[rowdy]

While HHKBs are great I wouldn't consider them endgame.

Best stock board ever is a 55g AE 87u, looks amazing and requires no modding to feel great.

Show Image

Yes, one of those would be acceptable.

[f32h80fsd08h34r5]

I consider my hhkb my endgame <3 Doesn't mean I am going to stop adding to the collection though.

[Bromono]

HHKB > Your opinion

[derb2k2]

HHKB is entry level

Entry level into the 'elite keyboard club'!

There's somewhat of a fantastical, but at the same time real, fascination with the HHKB. Yes, there is a lot of hype and that always brings naysayers and pessimists out of the woodwork. If you ask me, the HHKB definitely merits the praise it receives though.

[mrduul]

Endgame is the kishsaver.

[pixelheresy]

As a commercial board that feels nice and is a small, decently made package. Sure.

As an endgame. No... I feel that I lot of people on GH have or would like to have one in their collection, but keyboard fandom is a bit broad and tastes can be wildly different.

For example, I kind of like maximalist boards. My daily driver is a series of Tipro modules with just under 300 keys. I have a [pseudo] ISO-SE layout in the center module and two split ortholinear US layouts on the wings. I have dozens of VIM bindings, application shortcuts, buttons that open various scripts and automation, media buttons... all gobs of stuff.

I also like big AT/XT-style layouts. I like Model Ms and Dell AT101s. I'd like to get one of those insane Reuters boards and program and customize it so everything does *something*.

That being said, I am primarily a typist. I am a coder and I like to write, so having boards that I can do that without switching a billion layers is ideal. I rarely have a distinct need for a small "on-the-go" board, because I will deal with the laptop keyboard if bringing the laptop into the kitchen or to a meeting a work.

It also depends on what you like in this hobby. If you are looking to find the "right feel" and that is what motivates you, a Topre board like the HHKG is nice and may fit your bill. If you like restoring and collecting, you are probably looking at older and older boards. I am more of the later. As cool as more modern boards are, I kind of like digging and finding old stuff and getting it to work. Sure, I may also enjoy gussying them up with new/different keycaps, but I like the overall feel of the old school keyboards.

My endgame? Probably an IBM beamspring. Not because I'd use it for typing (since I probably type to fast for it), but because it is badass and ridiculously mechanical. Not to mention kind of pretty.

[Altis]

While HHKBs are great I wouldn't consider them endgame.

Best stock board ever is a 55g AE 87u, looks amazing and requires no modding to feel great.

Show Image

I prefer 45g, but honestly that anniversary edition in uniform 45g would be an ideal board if I could only have one.

I'm curious how it might look with the light 87UW case.  :cool:

EDIT:  Put my Photoshop skills to work.  :cool:


Blue would look really nice too: