Author Topic: The best keyboard layout full stop.  (Read 6739 times)

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Offline What is X?

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The best keyboard layout full stop.
« on: Sat, 02 April 2011, 23:06:35 »
Hit me. Is it colemak, dvorak (guessing no), maltron, or one of those really rare ones? I can't seem to find those websites that compare the stats of different layouts :(

Offline hoggy

  • * Ergonomics Moderator
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The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 01:07:41 »
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Popkeymon

  • Posts: 56
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 03:06:43 »
best in terms of what?

Offline What is X?

  • Thread Starter
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The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 04:15:17 »
in terms of comfort first and speed second. My only requirement is that ZXC remain where they are. A would be nice too but i'm guessing it's so commonly used that any decent layout will move it away from the pinkies...

Offline Popkeymon

  • Posts: 56
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 06:21:48 »
I did type faster on Qwerty before I learnt how to touch type Dvorak. Now I have lost my ability to touch type Qwerty but I feel more natural to type on Dvorak and the left handed layout. I started up looking for speed and believed that I would become a superfast typist if I change to the Dvorak layout.

Yup, the speed of typing is not determined by keyboard layout design, but of your neuro-reflexibility. If you have a good brain-hand connection, you will be good at Qwerty or other alternative with sufficient touch type training.

Offline Culinia

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« Last Edit: Sun, 03 April 2011, 06:45:33 by Culinia »

Offline Keymonger

  • Posts: 166
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 08:00:13 »
Depends on what you find comfortable. Colemak avoids the upper and bottom row like the plague and I personally think that's a mistake.

Offline Culinia

  • Posts: 163
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 08:14:03 »
Quote from: Keymonger;323685
Depends on what you find comfortable. Colemak avoids the upper and bottom row like the plague and I personally think that's a mistake.


Care to elaborate?

Offline Keymonger

  • Posts: 166
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 10:08:12 »
Well your hands are resting on four keys on each hand and hitting those keys are the easiest 'cause your fingers are already there. Movement should be limited when typing so your fingers aren't all over the place like with QWERTY; more comfortable that way. However, movement isn't the same for all fingers. That's what it feels like to me anyways. Like, moving your pinky to the upper row isn't the same as moving your index finger to the upper row and hitting that key. Stuff like that. So some fingers don't mind going to other rows, some do. Thinking about it like this makes a difference. Also, some fingers are stronger than others.

Offline Hak Foo

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The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 03 April 2011, 16:42:05 »
I've always wondered about ideal layouts for non-touch-typists.  I type with two fingers, about 60 words per minute, on QWERTY.  I doubt the same math applies for hand movements and home row keys-- maybe clustering in a starburst shape would be faster for such typing?
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline What is X?

  • Thread Starter
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The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 02:16:44 »
Quote from: Culinia;323668
Check this website out also.

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak

aha! I think that's the website i was looking for.

Offline Popkeymon

  • Posts: 56
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 04 April 2011, 05:54:56 »
I know much people on the web claiming that their speed on qwerty reach 100+wpm. That is 500+ char per mins, 8 keystrokes per second.

I confess that i am not a good 100+wpm typist who "constantly" hitting 8 keystrokes per second precisely. In fact, it is rather obscure to claim a speed without a common measurement. Is it the max speed or an average speed? How long should I take average? 1 minute or 1 hr?

I did not found one superfast typist who has break the record set by Babara Blackburn whose talent must be born rather than designed by keyboard.

If you are an average typist like me, you won't become a 100+wpm typist by switching to Dvorak, Colemak, or any "optimized" layout. Your speed of converting a brain signal into a keystroke is highly constrained by genes just like those sport athlete who cannot get much more faster by changing sports shoes(well it may help a little but won't get you becoming superman, right?)

Why I still keep my Dvorak skill if it did not make me a superfast typist?

I believe that Dvorak did make much more sense in terms of categorisation. I enjoy the hand alternation and grouping of vowels and high frequency consonants at the "home position", evenly on left and right. The effort saved and speed gaind on the design is minimal. You won't get from 50wpm to 100wpm by such changes. However, if we add up the effort we could save for next decades, it would be an enormouse amount!

Offline What is X?

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 122
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 05 April 2011, 05:54:49 »
Quote from: Popkeymon;324219
I know much people on the web claiming that their speed on qwerty reach 100+wpm. That is 500+ char per mins, 8 keystrokes per second.

I confess that i am not a good 100+wpm typist who "constantly" hitting 8 keystrokes per second precisely. In fact, it is rather obscure to claim a speed without a common measurement. Is it the max speed or an average speed? How long should I take average? 1 minute or 1 hr?

I did not found one superfast typist who has break the record set by Babara Blackburn whose talent must be born rather than designed by keyboard.

If you are an average typist like me, you won't become a 100+wpm typist by switching to Dvorak, Colemak, or any "optimized" layout. Your speed of converting a brain signal into a keystroke is highly constrained by genes just like those sport athlete who cannot get much more faster by changing sports shoes(well it may help a little but won't get you becoming superman, right?)

Why I still keep my Dvorak skill if it did not make me a superfast typist?

I believe that Dvorak did make much more sense in terms of categorisation. I enjoy the hand alternation and grouping of vowels and high frequency consonants at the "home position", evenly on left and right. The effort saved and speed gaind on the design is minimal. You won't get from 50wpm to 100wpm by such changes. However, if we add up the effort we could save for next decades, it would be an enormouse amount!

I can type over 100 wpm in QWERTY and it's not a brain limitation, it's a physical limitation in finger movement.

Offline Proword

  • Posts: 237
  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
The best keyboard layout full stop.
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 05 April 2011, 09:42:00 »
Quote from: What is X?;323580
Hit me. Is it colemak, dvorak (guessing no), maltron, or one of those really rare ones? I can't seem to find those websites that compare the stats of different layouts :(

Which "stats" are you referring to?

Are you considering just typing text, or programming, or gaming, or calculations or combinations thereof?

For my money, speaking solely of entering text, if you're looking purely at the "layout", you have to compare only those factors which are not "human related".  eg whether it's "comfortable", can one get a decent "rhythm", whether one can type accurately, quickly, whether one gets sore shoulders.  They're all related, I would submit, to individual variations of people, and should not be considered, at least in a first approximation.

Measures such as distance traveled by the hands/fingers over the course of keying (say) 10,000 words, what distance is traveled keying "common" digraphs and trigraphs (common in English I suppose), what percentage of typing requires moving from the home row to another, what percentage of keying requires a "hurdle" ie from the top row to the bottom row or vice versa
would probably be more valid indicators of a layout's "efficiency".

As a starting point (note that) I'd submit that the number of different words which can be typed with minimal travel, ie without moving away from the "home row" would be the way to go.  

It's a very simple calculation, very accurate (providing all parties start out with the same word list(s)), and as long as one ignores individual perceptions of whether words are commonly used (this varies with occupation, country etc) pretty well indisputable.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/word-lists/word-lists-maltron-layout.html

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/word-lists/word-lists-qwerty-layout.html


The above links give a fairly detailed comparison of QWERTY against Maltron.  Perhaps somebody might like to continue the analysis with Dvorak and Colemak.

This link (which I also placed in another post) has some fairly detailed academic papers which make interesting reading, and as far as I'm able to find, there are not equivalents for the other layouts. (It should be noted that the Lillian Malt papers indicate that she actually used Dvorak in her study, as well as QWERTY and Maltron.)

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers.html

Joe
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 April 2011, 09:44:25 by Proword »
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