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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: eeperson on Fri, 29 May 2009, 17:12:10

Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: eeperson on Fri, 29 May 2009, 17:12:10
I was thinking of buying one of the Filco 'tenkeyless' keyboards over at Elite Keyboards.  After contacting the web site and viewing some posts on this forum, I discovered that Elite Keyboards will selling a limited run of Filco 'tenkeyless' keyboards with blue Cherry switches in about a month. I am torn between the buying the current keyboards with the brown Cherry switches and waiting a month for a limited run of the blue Cherry switches.

I have used the blue switches before and really like the tactile feedback.  I like the idea of the brown switches (quieter, lighter springs) but I'm not sure they will have as much tactile feedback.  So, for the people that have used keyboards with both the brown and the blue switches, how does the tactile 'click' of the two compare?  Is it less noticeable in the browns?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 29 May 2009, 17:37:55
I am definitely waiting for some blue cherries from elitekeyboards. I guess we're gonna be fighting for one >;)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 17:41:17
The browns don't click at all. What noise they do make come from the key bottoming out.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Fri, 29 May 2009, 17:51:38
I was in your position not so long ago. I settled it by trying both by two buying cheap keyboards (G80-3000 LSCRC-2 ($60) and MX11800($27)) that have Blues and Browns respectively. Since that does not seem to be an option, you have to judge by other people's subjective descriptions.

Blues: Definitely more tactile. Each keypress is staccato. I try to minimize bottoming out since the audible clicks satisfy my need for feedback.

Browns: Not as tactile but that may be because of the lack of auditory feedback. Unique lightness which is enjoyable in its own right. However, I find myself bottoming out more to generate auditory feedback.

One obvious advantage of the brown is that you dont annoy people around you.

Edit: If damage to your tendons depends on actuation force (http://mykeyboard.co.uk/keyswitches/) then bear in mind ripster's point about Browns needing 5cN less force.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:00:02
Quote from: jayray999;93304


One obvious advantage of the brown is that you dont annoy people around you.


Not when I am typing on them : )

I had both the blue cherry and the brown cherry filco tenless.

FWIW, I sold the blue cherry version. The brown cherry filco tenless is my second one. I sold the first one I had : )
Pretty crazy; I know.

Its not that I don't like the blue cherries, I think I just like the brown cherries better.
Having said all that, I am typing on a filco tenless with black alps switches.
I think I need a beer.

Hopefully you will make the right choice the first time out : )
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:04:02
Quote from: bigpook;93305
Its not that I don't like the blue cherries, I think I just like the brown cherries better.


I wish I had your clarity of thought. Every time I try the one I think it is better. And then I try the other...

Make that two beers.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:07:03
Quote from: ripster;93306

Browns are "relaxing".
Blues are "fun".


That's exactly right.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:14:09
or in other words: the blues are all sparkly and the browns are sublime.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:16:04
Quote from: jayray999;93307
I wish I had your clarity of thought. Every time I try the one I think it is better. And then I try the other...

Make that two beers.


I don't really think you can go wrong with either one though. We all have our opinions though, but they are both fine switches.

In the end, you will end up buying both : )
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 18:17:47
Quote from: ripster;93306


That is Blues are "fun" until your significant other throws you "The Look".  We call it here, "The Pook Look".


Thanks, but really, all of us married guys know all too well what the "look" is. Don't be sticking my name all over that : )
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 19:31:57
Quote from: ripster;93314
Couldn't resist the rhyme.

Yeah, kinda ironic since it's your wife that has the Das.  Why didn't you try and have her use the Filco Blue Cherry? -  that must have been a tricky one to get your hands on so I was surprised when you let it go.


She likes having the numpad and she likes the das. I won't mess with it now that its on her desk.  Shes already wearing the letters off of some of the keys, and why would I risk the "look"? and a fair amount of "why can't you just leave it alone?".

I ordered the blue cherry filco from benippon if IIRC. Its not like I didn't like it, it was just sitting around not getting used so I sold it to a fellow geekhacker.

I can narrow down my favorites to the model m mini's, HHKB, filco with brown cherries and the filco with black alps.
Thats pretty good for me. I kind of wish I could just pick one and stick with it forever. But I really don't see that happening. : )

These keyboards are like a curse.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 29 May 2009, 20:38:08
Quote from: bigpook;93319
I kind of wish I could just pick one and stick with it forever. But I really don't see that happening. : )

These keyboards are like a curse.


I agree. Since I've gotten my HHKB, and learning the layout at home and at work, both of my other keyboards (brown and blue cherries) have been on the back burner. I'm probably going to loan out my Filco, it looks so sad just sitting there :(
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 29 May 2009, 20:46:53
Quote from: o2dazone;93322
I agree. Since I've gotten my HHKB, and learning the layout at home and at work, both of my other keyboards (brown and blue cherries) have been on the back burner. I'm probably going to loan out my Filco, it looks so sad just sitting there :(



So you think you can settle on the HHKB as your daily driver?

I thought I could at one point, then it was back to the model m's, then the filco's. In a month or so I will be back on the HHKB : )
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 29 May 2009, 21:24:51
Well, I say "Yes" to that answer because I just got it. Honestly I miss the browns, but I'm trying to find where they would fit in my day. Maybe at work once I stop carting the HHKB to the job and back, but then my blue cherries are gone, and I really like those...
Damnit for having only 2 computers
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Sat, 30 May 2009, 00:14:30
To seal the deal, I let my brother borrow my Filco Majestouch. He loved the g80-3000 when I got it, and got one for himself. So now he might be convinced to get a Filco. I wonder if Elitekeyboards has a referral program! LOL

It's out of the house, so I can't roll back to it. It'll give me and the HHKB some alone time to get intimate with one another.....................
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 01:31:31
the blue cherries are more tactile and louder than the brown cherries, that I know. What about the feel between blue cherries and black alps?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 06:43:29
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;93348
the blue cherries are more tactile and louder than the brown cherries, that I know. What about the feel between blue cherries and black alps?


I had to turn around and type on my wifes das. It immediately felt lighter but with a high pitched click. The black alps have a a more solid feel, not as light.
Its early, and hard to describe this.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 30 May 2009, 09:05:17
Quote from: bigpook;93363
I had to turn around and type on my wifes das. It immediately felt lighter but with a high pitched click. The black alps have a a more solid feel, not as light.
Its early, and hard to describe this.


Blue Cherries definitely feel lighter than the Black Alps. Black Alps don't have a click with them, but the bottoming out of the keys can be heard.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 30 May 2009, 09:08:11
Quote from: ripster;93371

Just curious - I wonder if Geekhackers would be more naturally "forgiving"of others typing loud since we're used to the sound.


I wonder about that too. I don't know since my wife does not care about a clicky keyboard, and is very happy with her laptop keyboard. I don't think I will be able to concentrate on my reading if someone is using a clicky keyboard close to me. Sound selfish, right? This is why I have my wireless Microsoft keyboard always handy for the times when she does not want to hear click clack constantly or when our baby is having a hard time falling asleep.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 09:09:38
Quote from: ripster;93371
So she must be sitting near you.  The sound of the Blue Cherries don't bug you?

Just curious - I wonder if Geekhackers would be more naturally "forgiving"of others typing loud since we're used to the sound.


Not really, its a high pitched sound but I have a bunch of computers running so there is fan noise going on to. Its not like the room is actually quiet.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 09:10:15
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;93375
Blue Cherries definitely feel lighter than the Black Alps. Black Alps don't have a click with them, but the bottoming out of the keys can be heard.


Yeah, that would be about right.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 30 May 2009, 09:13:28
Quote from: bigpook;93380
Yeah, that would be about right.


If I had a choice, I would prefer to have someone using blue Cherries than black Alps or Buckling Spring beside me.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 10:23:56
I do find the black alps a bit too heavy for my typing. Now that the blue cherries are lighter, I hope it will improve my typing.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 30 May 2009, 10:26:39
coming off of a BS keyboard the black alps are positively lively : )
but compared to a brown cherry, the black alps are all chunky.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Sat, 30 May 2009, 11:11:14
Quote from: ripster;93383
LOL - I was just thinking the same thing.  It's the anticipation with a Buckling Spring - there's a lot of random "pings" I can hear a good distance away.

For yuks I just plugged in my son's Sennheiser PXC 450 noise cancelling headphones and they don't do much to dampen the high pitched sounds.  I think they are more for the jet engine's low rumbling pitch range.


Somehow, I find that most people, especially in an office environment, more tolerant towards black Alps than towards Blue Cherries. This could be cause some rubber dome keyboards produce quite "loud" noise when the keys are bottomed out and when they go back to their initial location.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 11:47:02
Quote from: ripster;93383
For yuks I just plugged in my son's Sennheiser PXC 450 noise cancelling headphones and they don't do much to dampen the high pitched sounds.  I think they are more for the jet engine's low rumbling pitch range.


My experience with noise cancellation phones suggests that passive noise cancellation (Etymotic, Shure etc.) works well while active noise cancellation (Bose, Sennheiser etc.) is wishful thinking at best, snake oil at worst and either way needs batteries.

Off-topic: You can't go wrong with that blue cherry of earphones, the great Etymotic ER-4S (or ER-4P) in terms of noise cancellation and sound quality. And they are so tiny they can fit in your shirt pocket. Why do I have a feeling you know all this?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 12:07:47
Quote from: ripster;93399
Fo Shure (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=86430&postcount=20)....

Hey you have an Iriver H120; the greatest portable digital music player ever built. They don't build 'em like that. Rockbox is great but I am always scared when I upgrade that I will brick my player. I have the H140.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 12:50:43
Quote from: ripster;93412
Compared to the Sansa Clip it IS a brick.


It is the only portable player I encountered with an optical in/out. Add a DAC and an amp and you are ready to rock. Ok not exactly a portable setup.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jayray999 on Sat, 30 May 2009, 13:31:54
You are not alone...

(http://c1.neweggimages.com/WebResource/Themes/2005/Nest/out.gif) (http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 30 May 2009, 14:21:02
iRiver's current model- E100- is a fairly crummy player.

I had a Sandisk E250 for a few years, with Rockbox towards the end, and rather liked it, but the wheel seized up, so I bought an E100 (8Gb for less than I paid for the 2Gb Sandisk), and it just feels like working through molasses-- unresponsive and slow.  UI design counts hugely on these tiny devices.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 01 June 2009, 07:59:24
Ripster: have you tried Cherry browns on a MX-11800 or G80-3000?  In one of your earlier posts, you mention the tactility of the browns being difficult to feel on your Filco.  I find this not to be case on the Cherry-made 'boards.  I am not sure if this is due to the keycaps or plate/PCB mounting differences, but they feel very different.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Eclairz on Mon, 01 June 2009, 08:17:36
I use a pair of Closed Sennheiser HD25 headphones, extremely durable and look abit geeky and large but block out most the sounds without sticking those worms into my ears while still allowing me to hear people talking to me as i can't drop the volume a fairly large number of decibels.

Currently connected to my sansa clip but i use them for many things except for home, where i use some huge monitor speakers.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: kyamei on Mon, 01 June 2009, 08:39:06
Quote from: itlnstln;93680
Ripster: have you tried Cherry browns on a MX-11800 or G80-3000?  In one of your earlier posts, you mention the tactility of the browns being difficult to feel on your Filco.  I find this not to be case on the Cherry-made 'boards.  I am not sure if this is due to the keycaps or plate/PCB mounting differences, but they feel very different.


Having tested browns on a 11800 first, I noticed the difference in feel as soon as I got my Filco.  I don't think it has anything to do with the keycaps and mounting cause even if I press the switch directly, there is definitely a difference.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: kyamei on Mon, 01 June 2009, 16:54:20
I have a hard time believing that mounting can make such a huge difference in the way the switch feels.  The 11800 is not quite as smooth, but it is far more tactile than the Filco.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: kyamei on Tue, 02 June 2009, 02:31:33
The 11800 and the Filco were both purchased new.  

I remember seeing this comparison before, but I couldn't find it so I did it myself.  Here is a picture of the browns in a Filco (top) and an 11800 (bottom).  Notice how they are different in color, a change in manufacturing process over the years perhaps?

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2547&stc=1&d=1243927742)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: xsphat on Tue, 02 June 2009, 02:43:20
A Cherry rep once told me they use different switches for their in-house keyboards than the ones they sell for manufacturing. The last time I posted this fact, it caused an uproar by some whiner so bad threads were deleted and he (she (it)) has yet to come back here, so this is all I will say about it. Call Cherry. They speak English too.

And if anyone wishes to bash me about this, grow a spine and PM me, as I don't read the keyboard section very often at all.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: kyamei on Tue, 02 June 2009, 02:47:40
When I was trying to find that brown switch comparison, I came across that post of yours.  Only skimmed through the first page but that would explain it.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 02 June 2009, 06:58:42
While what Xs says I am sure is true (I mean, he did get it straight from Cherry), I do not see the color difference in the switches between my Filco and G80-3000 as shown in Kyamei's post.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: kyamei on Tue, 02 June 2009, 09:56:59
I don't know how to play with the settings on cameras so that's the best pic I could get.  The difference in the browns are exaggerated in the pic, but they are noticeably different in person as well.  Probably means nothing anyways.  Xsphat's explanation makes much more sense.

EDIT:  Found the page where I saw the difference in color mentioned, it was on Sandy's site.  Scroll down the page a bit and he compares the switches from a 11800 with a Filco.  http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/mx11800.html
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:29:51
Quote from: xsphat;93845
A Cherry rep once told me they use different switches for their in-house keyboards than the ones they sell for manufacturing. The last time I posted this fact, it caused an uproar by some whiner so bad threads were deleted and he (she (it)) has yet to come back here, so this is all I will say about it. Call Cherry. They speak English too.

And if anyone wishes to bash me about this, grow a spine and PM me, as I don't read the keyboard section very often at all.


This is probably true. It would be similar to Formula One where Renault and Ferrari have bought sold engines to other teams, but not the same ones used by their own teams.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 02 June 2009, 10:30:34
The color difference might just be the color mixture Cherry used changing over time.  The 11800 in Sandy's pics is from 2000 and the Filcos didn't come out for several years after that.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Hak Foo on Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:32:46
It could even be a matter of "we consume all of production like A ourselves, so line B goes out to other firms."
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ironcoder on Thu, 04 June 2009, 08:33:41
Quote from: xsphat;93845
A Cherry rep once told me they use different switches for their in-house keyboards than the ones they sell for manufacturing. The last time I posted this fact, it caused an uproar by some whiner so bad threads were deleted and he (she (it)) has yet to come back here, so this is all I will say about it. Call Cherry. They speak English too.

And if anyone wishes to bash me about this, grow a spine and PM me, as I don't read the keyboard section very often at all.


LOL yeah I hear you buddy. Telling the truth on most internet forums or calling bull**** on a lame post is a sure recipe for a scream and whine and personal attackathon.

This forum seems pretty civil and the guys are pretty darn knowledgable on keyboards (except for me, of course).
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 04 June 2009, 10:14:09
Quote from: ripster;94162
Yeah, I think IntlStln once said he appreciated we don't do the "RTFM" or "just do a search" to the noobies. I try and be ultrapolite until they hit a post count of 10.

And then what?  Be a total a*s?
 
:)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: dqsl on Tue, 09 June 2009, 15:23:07
haven't you heard about the Super.fi mod??
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ironcoder on Wed, 10 June 2009, 04:59:30
Any news, Ripster?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 10 June 2009, 10:13:58
Quote from: ripster;95181
I really have no more info than you guys do!!
 
Daily AM Routine:
1) Coffee
2) Login to email accounts (2). No Elite notices, bah!
3) Fire up film scanner and Lightroom to archive and edit old negatives whirrr....click, click for 5 mins.
4) Post Geekhack
5) Stick another negative in, whirrr.... click, click
5) COMPLAIN ABOUT NO BLUE CHERRY FILCOS!!!!

You know, 6 comes after 5. Then, it's 7, 8, 9, and 10.
 
This kinda sounds like my day.
 
1) Get ready for work
B) Go to Work
III) Coffee
Quatro) Check overnight jobs, fix anything that broke
Next) Post on GeekHack the rest of the day
Last) Go Home
 
Sometimes there's a little more work in there, but since most of my work is automated, I get to spend more time with you guys.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 10 June 2009, 11:24:49
This "What's your daily schedule" posts could be a cool offtopic thread, someone start it :p
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 10 June 2009, 18:38:41
nice, I see you have a green thumb.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: loofa on Fri, 12 June 2009, 08:24:14
Got a surprise from elitekeyboards this morning; check your email.  :)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ironcoder on Fri, 12 June 2009, 08:53:12
Damn I'm still not getting the newsletters :(
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 June 2009, 09:55:20
Quote from: ripster;95683
I guess I'm supposed to keep it secret

Dude, just say that the Filcos with bl... Hey!!! Where are you taking me?!?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 12 June 2009, 09:58:31
You guys are awful
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 10:41:48
I'm thinking about getting one of these blue cherry Filcos, but Im wondering what the switches. Aside from buckling springs, the only type of mechanical switch I've ever used are Black Alps. Can anyone give me an idea of how they stack up in terms of feel, tactility, stiffness etc?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 11:56:46
Blue Cherries... YUMMMMM They smell, look, and feel better than the edible ones x]
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 12:28:04
Quote from: ripster;95707
Pook calls Blue Cherries "sparkly".

Show Image
(http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/discoball-costume.jpg)


There, now the thread has COMPLETELY gone full circle and we're back on page one.

lol where do you get all these pics from ripster. It only takes you a min everytime!
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 12:34:16
Quote from: ripster;95711
Shh.....


YES SIR! (check again @ my previous post)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 12:42:58
lmao I just don't want to be rude because if I am, they might not send me the red esc key =O
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 June 2009, 13:42:14
lol, ripster I need the link to that simpsons chalkboard site ;)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 12 June 2009, 14:45:24
thats not quite what I meant : )








Quote from: watduzhkstand4;95709
lol where do you get all these pics from ripster. It only takes you a min everytime!
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 12 June 2009, 14:47:49
thats not quite what I meant : ) I think I need to reconsider the descriptors that I use. You are one crazy dude ripster : )



Quote from: ripster;95707
Pook calls Blue Cherries "sparkly".

Show Image
(http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/discoball-costume.jpg)


There, now the thread has COMPLETELY gone full circle and we're back on page one.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jkkhop on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:13:14
It's been my first two days with Brown Cherry Filco and so far I can't say my typing speed has increased. Making a lot of mistakes when typing rapidly and getting only 50-55WPM. These switches turned out to be lighter and more sensitive than I anticipated. They are pretty good for fps-gaming, however, I'm wondering if I would have enjoyed the Black Cherries, or even White XM's better.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:17:42
Quote from: jkkhop;98934
I'm wondering if I would have enjoyed the Black Cherries, or maybe even White XM's better.


black cherries feel smooth but the biggest complaint about them are that they're way too stiff. Tired my fingers out, for sure. I think 'red' cherries that came out recently are similar to blacks but with a lighter spring. You might like those. They're 'linear' I believe (no tactile bump). Probably be pretty light since i think they use the spring from the browns.
have you tried blues?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jkkhop on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:29:28
Sure, going to keep this Filco for now and see if I get used to it better.. no reason to rush into conclusions quite yet. But thanks for the info wellington. I have yet to try other switches than these Browns.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:33:02
Quote from: ripster;98941
 How's that Topre?  ;-)


we're still 'goin at it'  ;D
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:40:57
Quote from: jkkhop;98934
It's been my first two days with Brown Cherry Filco and so far I can't say my typing speed has increased. Making a lot of mistakes when typing rapidly and getting only 50-55WPM. These switches turned out to be lighter and more sensitive than I anticipated. They are pretty good for fps-gaming, however, I'm wondering if I would have enjoyed the Black Cherries, or even White XM's better.

I gradually moved down in resistance from Model Ms to Alps to Cherry browns.  At first I thought the Cherry browns were too light, but after using them for a few days to a week (I type a lot at work, so I get a lot of 'board-time), I got used to them, and now, I find BS and Alps too heavy.  It just takes a little time to get used to the switch.  They are too light for some folks, though.  There are quite a few people here that are die hard Model M users.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:42:40
Quote from: wellington1869;98950
we're still 'goin at it'  ;D


be gentle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:43:19
Quote from: o2dazone;98961
be gentle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys)


rofl hilarious ;)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 24 June 2009, 15:44:26
Quote from: itlnstln;98957
I gradually moved down in resistance from Model Ms to Alps to Cherry browns.  At first I thought the Cherry browns were too light, but after using them for a few days to a week (I type a lot at work, so I get a lot of 'board-time), I got used to them, and now, I find BS and Alps too heavy.  It just takes a little time to get used to the switch.  They are too light for some folks, though.  There are quite a few people here that are die hard Model M users.


I've been gradually sliding down the slope too, though I havent arrived at the browns yet. There was a time i wouldnt have considered the topres because of the lightness.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jkkhop on Fri, 28 August 2009, 08:58:38
For first time after I got my Brown Cherry Filco, I plugged in my old worn-out Logitech Media Elite and gave it a try in Quake and it instantly felt better because of the stiffier keys. I am selling my Filco now and probably getting one with Black Cherries instead.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 28 August 2009, 09:10:56
Quote from: jkkhop;112544
For first time after I got my Brown Cherry Filco, I plugged in my old worn-out Logitech Media Elite and gave it a try in Quake and it instantly felt better because of the stiffier keys. I am selling my Filco now and probably getting one with Black Cherries instead.

You may want to check out the Deck Legend Tactile. It has stiffer keys (Cherry whites) along the lines of the Cherry blacks and the tactility of the browns.  Basically, it's a Cherry brown switch with a Cherry black spring.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jkkhop on Fri, 28 August 2009, 09:26:28
Quote from: itlnstln;112550
You may want to check out the Deck Legend Tactile. It has stiffer keys (Cherry whites) along the lines of the Cherry blacks and the tactility of the browns.  Basically, it's a Cherry brown switch with a Cherry black spring.


Sounds like a perfect switch, but that backlight thing gave me an instant turnoff.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 28 August 2009, 09:30:01
That, and the font on the Deck 'boards sucks (IMO).  I think they make blank ones though (or at least they sell blank keycaps).
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 28 August 2009, 09:31:10
Yeah, it strikes me as odd that they are phasing the white switch out.

Another alternative here would be to get an old board with white SMK switches, which are like stiff Cherry blues.

Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Chicony-KB-5191-FCC-ID-E8H5IKKB-5191-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ120455726327QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1c0bb884f7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 28 August 2009, 11:35:47
Quote from: ch_123;112566
Yeah, it strikes me as odd that they are phasing the white switch out.

Another alternative here would be to get an old board with white SMK switches, which are like stiff Cherry blues.

Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Chicony-KB-5191-FCC-ID-E8H5IKKB-5191-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ120455726327QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1c0bb884f7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Those aren't SMK switches, but white cherry clones that click.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: xyzzy on Fri, 28 August 2009, 12:00:06
I'm still puzzled by the fact that the Cherry blacks are the most common Cherry mechanical switches available.

Not that they're bad, but it feels like typing on this

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4111&stc=1&d=1251478889)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 28 August 2009, 12:18:00
They're popular with POS and Industrial applications, where typing feel is nowhere near as important as reliability.

Remember - linear switches were used on just about everything before Buckling Springs came along. Im pretty sure tactile Alps and Cherrys were a response to BS.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: xyzzy on Fri, 28 August 2009, 12:37:11
Quote from: ch_123;112650
They're popular with POS and Industrial applications, where typing feel is nowhere near as important as reliability.

Remember - linear switches were used on just about everything before Buckling Springs came along. Im pretty sure tactile Alps and Cherrys were a response to BS.


It's not that I don't like linear switches, it's the combination of linearity + stiffness that kills it for me.

As they give no tactile feedback at all, you pretty much have to bottom out to be sure that the stroke has registered. But as they're very stiff you end up banging on the keys like a madman.

It defeats must if not all of the advantages of using a mechanical keyboard IMHO.

Cherry browns OTOH are much lighter, and they feel almost linear switches if you type fast and bottom out. But still they don't feel like typing on a mattress.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 28 August 2009, 12:56:46
Again, I think the aforementioned activities would benefit from switches that can't be pressed accidentally (well, at least not easily). And yeah, I've used some real old keyboards that have soft linear switches, and they are pleasant enough to type on, but I'd still prefer some sort of pronounced tactility in the keyboards I'm using.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 28 August 2009, 22:16:35
Yesterday, I noticed one keyboard for 99 cents in a thrift shop, and the keys seemed to have a nice feel, as well as being made of glossy ABS plastic, so I bought it. It turned out to be a rubber cone keyboard, but at least with individual cones for the keys, like a Keytronics, but with a crisper feel. (Strangely enough, though, the back of the keyboard internals clips on to a curved metal plate, giving much the same appearance as a Model M; the plastic case strongly resembles it as well.) This keyboard was made by the Japanese company Mitsumi.

Today, I visited another part of town with two thrift shops next to one another. I bought an Apple Keyboard II in one, thinking to find ALPS switches in it, but I see it uses another type of switch entirely. (The stem is round, there is a thin spring in it, and the assembly seems to be one piece of plastic for all the keys, like some membrane keyboards; I'll need to look up what that keyboard used.) There were also two other keyboards for Macintoshes, one by Apple, and one by a third party, with numeric keypads and function keys, but they had no tactile feel at all, so I ignored them.

At the one next door, I bought a keyboard with the same 101-key but AT-style layout that I hated and still hate (backspace key in the wrong place) as the 99-cent keyboard that I bought yesterday. It set me back all of two dollars. It didn't seem to have much tactile feel, but I thought being an early keyboard it might be useful in some way. It was made in Taiwan.

The model number is 1KB101, although on the label in blue there are the much larger letters 1HB101. No manufacturer seems indicated.

A very pleasant surprise when I opened it up and took off some keycaps.

Double-shot molded keys. Cherry-style keyswitches (blue stems).

EDIT: I found a site with pictures of the key mechanism for the Apple Keyboard II, but it's in Korean. And from their pictures, apparently some keys do have ALPS mechanisms.

http://rasoyuz.tistory.com/51
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: skriefal on Fri, 28 August 2009, 22:50:31
If that site is correct, then the Apple Keyboard II uses a mechanical module on top of a membrane.  The Cherry FTSC is similar.  Basically, imagine a rubber dome board but with the domes replaced by a plunger and spring.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 29 August 2009, 04:01:32
Quote from: quadibloc;112809
Yesterday, I noticed one keyboard for 99 cents in a thrift shop, and the keys seemed to have a nice feel, as well as being made of glossy ABS plastic, so I bought it. It turned out to be a rubber cone keyboard, but at least with individual cones for the keys, like a Keytronics, but with a crisper feel. (Strangely enough, though, the back of the keyboard internals clips on to a curved metal plate, giving much the same appearance as a Model M; the plastic case strongly resembles it as well.) This keyboard was made by the Japanese company Mitsumi.


Sounds like the buckling sleeves used in M4-1s.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 29 August 2009, 07:16:44
The Mitsumi keyboard is pictured in a few places;

http://jope.fi/c64t/

and on this page, which pictures a Japanese version of the Apple Keyboard II, the key and plunger are pictured:

http://park10.wakwak.com/~jpspace/key/kaitai_apple2.html

but the other keyboard I purchased the next day is what really astonishes me. The double-shot keys are similar to examples pictured here, with horizontal stripes on the inside, and it has other evidences of high-quality construction; the switches are mounted in a metal frame at the top, and many of the keys are on levellers.

So I will be simply cleaning and restoring it, rather than using it for parts. Possibly the lack of tactile feel means the switches are Hall effect even, as this keyboard in most respects seems like a computer keyboard from the era before the microprocessor took over.
Title: Need a specific answer to this whole cherry switches comparison
Post by: Keeblet on Mon, 12 October 2009, 10:19:59
I use a Saitek Eclipse I.  Mentioning a keyboard like this would probably mean Gasp*! but as soon as the Otaku Cherry Blues come back, I am probably going to order one of those.  BUT, I do not know which cherry switch to choose anymore because I like things from each of the switches and I do not really want to buy a keyboard, return it, and try another one (They should really have demos placed @ local stores or something).  Cherry Blues sound AWESOME, they sound fun to type on, the little click after each stroke sounds cool, clicky clicky clicky is pretty cool in my book.  But I heard in some reviews, Cherry Blues are not good for fast paced games like UT3 cause you can't press the keys fast enough (???) and I thought if anything, mechanical keys were all faster than membrane (maybe except black) because the key registers ~ half way.  That made me lean towards Brown.  Browns seem cool but I really do not like the way it sounds and it seems as if I just laid a pinky on one of the keys, it would register.  Some say they are the best for gaming and typing which I plan to do since I do not want to really purchase two keyboards because of $ issues.  Now that moves onto Cherry Blacks because they are "stiff" (One gave a picture of two large springs, explaining it would feel like those to type on) but I do am going to be doing a decent amount of typing and obviously do not want it too stiff.  So if someone can bust out the myth on Cherry Blues cannot press keys too fast or isn't recommended for gaming, I would probably get the blues.  I don't really want to bottom out on a brown as there is no point if you can go silent but if there really is no tactile bump (or enough of it), I may end up hitting a key multiple times in a game because I registered half way and then bottomed out a few mile seconds later.  I would like something a little bit lighter than my Saitek Eclipse I right now but not too light where I may actually bottom out keys while playing (unless this is normal).  Sorry to sound like a pure scrub, still trying to learn all differences between switches and etc.  Thanks in advance if I do not reply quickly enough.
Title: (Tired after 8 pages) Cherry Blue v. Brown v. Black?
Post by: Keeblet on Mon, 12 October 2009, 10:21:58
I use a Saitek Eclipse I.  Mentioning a keyboard like this would probably mean Gasp*! but as soon as the Otaku Cherry Blues come back, I am probably going to order one of those.  BUT, I do not know which cherry switch to choose anymore because I like things from each of the switches and I do not really want to buy a keyboard, return it, and try another one (They should really have demos placed @ local stores or something).  Cherry Blues sound AWESOME, they sound fun to type on, the little click after each stroke sounds cool, clicky clicky clicky is pretty cool in my book.  But I heard in some reviews, Cherry Blues are not good for fast paced games like UT3 cause you can't press the keys fast enough (???) and I thought if anything, mechanical keys were all faster than membrane (maybe except black) because the key registers ~ half way.  That made me lean towards Brown.  Browns seem cool but I really do not like the way it sounds and it seems as if i just laid a pinky on one of the keys, it would register.  Some say they are the best for gaming and typing which I plan to do since I do not want to really purchase two keyboards because of $ issues.  Now that moves onto Cherry Blacks because they are "stiff" (One gave a picture of two large springs, explaining it would feel like those to type on) but I do am going to be doing a decent amount of typing and obviously do not want it too stiff.  So if someone can bust out the myth on Cherry Blues cannot press keys too fast or isn't recommended for gaming, I would probably get the blues.  I don't really want to bottom out on a brown as there is no point if you can go silent but if there really is no tactile bump (or enough of it), I may end up hitting a key multiple times in a game because I registered half way and then bottomed out a few mile seconds later.  I would like something a little bit lighter than my Saitek Eclipse I right now but not light where I may actually bottom out keys while playing (unless this is normal).  Sorry to sound like a pure scrub, still trying to learn all differences between switches and etc.  Thanks in advance if I do not reply quickly enough.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: jkkhop on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:01:18
Quote from: Keeblet;124648
wall of text

I had the Cherry Browns before I got Blacks and I can tell you that Blacks are loads better for fast-paced fps gaming like Quake and UT. The higher resistance and linearity seems to make the keys bounce back faster after pressed and feel more responsive. Browns feel sloppy and you can hardly call them tactile, they are almost linear.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:05:15
They feel sloppy how? I'm typing on one now and I don't feel any slop. slop slop slop. Nope, I don't feel any.

I do agree they feel pretty linear though the tactility seems to be there maybe from bottoming out.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:08:58
what about black vs topre (disregarding a preference for heaviness)

the brown i dont think is as suited for games as some say
and i dont want to get a keyboard with blacks JUST to play the occasional TF2 session

im not overly serious about the key quality for games specifically, but act like i am
why no topre?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:20:38
Cherry browns are a very light switch that need an equally light touch to get the full effect.  If you are used to typing on heavier switches like BS, for example, then the Cherry browns will quite linear.  As your touch lightens, the tactile point becomes very apparent.  I also think that the Cherry-made 'boards with browns have a better tactile-feel than Cherry brown 'boards from other manufacturers (like Filco).  This is probably due to the different switch mounting and key cap material.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:28:43
Quote from: itlnstln;124662
I also think that the Cherry-made 'boards with browns have a better tactile-feel than Cherry brown 'boards from other manufacturers (like Filco).  This is probably due to the different switch mounting and key cap material.


i'm continually surprised at how much those things matter in the overall experience of a board, even with identical springs.  The difference between my TVS and my m10 really brought that out for me. Ie, it wasnt just an audio difference (like i've seen before), in this case it was a tactile difference too.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:43:02
I think cerain plastics might be softer/harder than others and absorb more "shock" (read: feeling) than others. The same could be said for the materials used to mount the switches as well.
 
An example might be POM being harder than ABS, thus ABS absorbs some shock, therefore, the Cherry G80 (with POM caps) feels more tactile than the Filco (with ABS).
Title: I would really like to try out Realforces, etc...
Post by: Keeblet on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:48:31
Unfortunately, I can't really pay for that since $256 means a new gpu for me :D
Thing is though that I play a lot of Valve games, which do require some crouch jumping which hurts my poor little pinky on the Eclipse I after awhile.  I don't think L4D would really be fast paced when compared to a game like UT3 but I basically did not want any interruptions for any games I play if I am going to be purchasing a keyboard of this price.  My main concern was ghosting which many other "GAMINGGGG" Keyboards claim to have but are usually only placed around WASD and I was worried about any possible ghosting issues when buying a keyboard.  N-Key rollover with PS/2 pretty much solves that but then I just need to figure out which switch is best for me.  I personally would like to hear from someone who plays valve games and I don't know why I am so picky with the whole light on crouch jumping situation but that's just me I guess.  Would you say a game like L4D is as fast paced as UT3?  I think I would have gotten Black Linear Tenkeyless but I am going to be doing some typing too and not pure gaming.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ironcoder on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:49:05
Yeah I have to say I'm not thrilled with the Filco keycaps and the spring sound is hollow and not very attractive. I agree they could be damped better. The sound seems to affect the overall experience more than most people would think. It probably also affects how we feel the keyboard whether it's tight, sloppy, etc. Reminds me of an M16 in some ways. It's odd because the housing is a brick $hithouse. It feels comfortingly solid.

Still it "types good" and is a dramatic improvement over what I was using.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:51:02
I find the Filco to sound kinda "ticky."   The Cherry has a nice, soft "thock" to it.  The Cherry has a much more pleasant sound.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:51:55
Quote from: Keeblet;124669
Unfortunately, I can't really pay for that since $256 means a new gpu for me :D
Thing is though that I play a lot of Valve games, which do require some crouch jumping which hurts my poor little pinky on the Eclipse I after awhile.  I don't think L4D would really be fast paced when compared to a game like UT3 but I basically did not want any interruptions for any games I play if I am going to be purchasing a keyboard of this price.  My main concern was ghosting which many other "GAMINGGGG" Keyboards claim to have but are usually only placed around WASD and I was worried about any possible ghosting issues when buying a keyboard.  N-Key rollover with PS/2 pretty much solves that but then I just need to figure out which switch is best for me.  I personally would like to hear from someone who plays valve games and I don't know why I am so picky with the whole light on crouch jumping situation but that's just me I guess.  Would you say a game like L4D is as fast paced as UT3?  I think I would have gotten Black Linear Tenkeyless but I am going to be doing some typing too and not pure gaming.

l4d is nowhere near as fast or demanding compared to UT/quake
its more a teamwork/experience type game

$250 on a GPU vs keyboard
most expensive GPU ive bought was $450
but even then
its worth $100 tops in 2yrs

$250 keyboard
seems to be worth $200 in 2yrs
and actually still works and is useful after 10yrs (+)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 12 October 2009, 11:55:26
Quote from: AndrewZorn;124672
$250 keyboard
seems to be worth $200 in 2yrs
and actually still works and is useful after 10yrs (+)

Depending on your level of keyboard addiction, you will probably only spend that $200 once compared to once a year for GPUs.
 
That said, a lot of people on GH have spent that kind of money on a variety of keyboards, so YMMV.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: JBert on Mon, 12 October 2009, 12:16:00
Quote from: ripster;124675
I would just get the blues.  Really, almost any keyboard can be used for gaming unless you are a pro.  My son is top of the TF2 boards constantly (Ripster [ESG]) and  he uses a Unicomp Buckling Spring 2-key rollover board.  For gaming you want to spend a lot of time getting the right mouse.
And just to elaborate: most buckling spring keyboards are about as stiff as the blacks, yet you need to let the key rise a fair distance before it can be pressed again.

The blues can be pressed rapidly, it's just that you won't get a second tactile pulse because the "clicker" is still pressed down.
Title: Nice replies guys
Post by: Keeblet on Mon, 12 October 2009, 12:45:30
I used to play in a somewhat competitive TF2 scene, seeping into the edges of Cevo until my team died out because silly kids get phished, sigh*.  I was thinking of L4D being somewhat fast paced in versus where you need to do quick wall pounces but it's really more of a all around mouse control and keyboard thing.  And Ripster, I thought you said Reptile for a second haha (he's a pretty good soldier, dunno about now).  J Bert, are you referring to that the blue cherrys won't give a second clicky response because when you rapidly spam the blue cherry, you are bottoming them out?  I am assuming that the click is half way through, then from the half way point, you can continue to spam it till it bottoms out and coming back to the half way point still registers??  Gosh, I don't even know what I am saying anymore hahaha.  Also, does anyone have a Saitek Eclipse I and switched to a mechanical keyboard and can tell me the difference in the amount of force needed to press a key?  Thanks again all for the replies.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 12 October 2009, 12:48:05
i had an eclipse 1 for a couple weeks
returned it for the g15
which had a 'tighter' feel
so if a mechanical feels tighter than a g15
then the eclipse, without direct comparison, would be WAY softer/mushier
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Keeblet on Mon, 12 October 2009, 13:12:34
Oh wow, I can't wait to try out a Filco, I guess these are really mushy.  Whoever made that comparison with the Filco being ticky and Cherry boards being thocky is actually pretty accurate hahahha
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: exousia on Mon, 09 November 2009, 17:06:50
It's amazing how much polarity there is around here of opinion about each and every switch. One person hates browns but loves blacks, the next hates blacks and loves blues, hates blues and blacks loves brown, hates them all, the combinations are endless... and confusing none-the-less. I think if people put there own opinions into perspective it might be better useful for people who are searching for a certain feel for a certain kind of use, ie mostly gaming or mostly just typing. So far the Browns seem like a decent middle ground but then again there are some who think Black is the better way to go (gaming-wise), others who say Blue can handle everything, then others who suggest Clears/Whites are a likely sweet spot between brown and black but theres not enough people with experience with them to compare with the other switches and with different types of uses to say anything for sure.

Quote from: ripster;124675
I'm picky though so haven't decided what is "best".  The Cherry Clears from Datacal will take a few days to arrive.


So how's those Clears working out for you?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 09 November 2009, 17:30:42
i think its not really as hard is it is often made out to be... just think of the properties

loud click vs subtle tactile click vs no tactile click (ZOMG GAMING MUST HAVE / NOT HAVE CLICKS)
light vs medium vs heavy (ZOMG QUICK REACTION / HEAVY FINGERS)

so then we just go back to what CHERRY has to say about them

blue - light + loud click
brown - light + subtle click

topre - medium + no click

BS - heavy + loud click
black - heavy + no click

etc
this might need a graphical matrix to be fully realized

my point is this forum needs more arguing over whether or not you need clickiness in games, instead of the best gaming switch
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Arc'xer on Mon, 09 November 2009, 19:50:58
Quote from: AndrewZorn;131383
my point is this forum needs more arguing over whether or not you need clickiness in games, instead of the best gaming switch


Maybe it's not my place to speak. I'm still waiting to buy a filco and I never used a mechanical keyboard. But I think that clickiness is a moot point.

A serious gamer would buy high-quality stereo headphones like AD700s or HD555s. The in-game noise would drown out the clickiness. And most FPS have a very small APM requirement(Actions per minute) unlike say typing where some people are doing 60-140 WPM or an RTS game like Starcraft, ever seen some of the South Korean pro Starcraft players point of view (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=starcraft+keyboard+view&search_type=&aq=f)

I spent quite a few weeks reading this site. And when I spent time reading about blues and gaming, since I just love the blues sound and I don't play that many games. I kept seeing basically "They are okay, nothing horrible or anything. Their slight increased force requirement is in some ways better than browns avoiding accidental key press in case of hovering fingers or you might also consider the browns since their lightness feels linear in a way".

The funny thing is most of the time clickiness was debated for a short time or not at all. And most discussions moved to whether browns or linear like the MX blacks or the recent MX reds should be used instead.

Rip's son uses a unicomp, louder than the blues, correct?

Guess it's not about noise but preference in the end.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 09 November 2009, 19:59:09
i think its the feel not the noise that is loved/hated
also, open headphones (and maybe anyway) you WOULD still hear them

if it is RTS you are looking for i think the click would be almost as helpful as it is for typing, its more the type of game that would benefit from 'confirmation'

people want stiff black switches with no click to them when, for example, repeatedly jumping in quake 3
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 10 November 2009, 05:47:20
Quote from: ripster;131417
I stuck my Cherry Clear (and Cherry Red for that matter) impressions in the N52 Mod post here. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7425)

Unless you're a pro gamer (and I take pros who make money from their equipment decisions a lot more seriously than any of YOU guys) I would choose a keyboard based on whatever key switch matches your general typing style.

Hence why I game with a Model F :)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 10 November 2009, 07:05:22
Perfect gaming keyboard:

Keys should work reliably. No failed keypresses. No bouncing.
Force. Light as possible without getting accidental presses.
Travel. Shorter the better for gaming performance, if truth be told.
Tactile feedback. Irrelevant if you're mashing keys. Useful if you don't and if it genuinely confirms a keypress that might not otherwise be obvious in-game.
Audible feedback. Same as tactile, unless you are on teamspeak etc, or find the sound distracting.
Hysteresis. Bad for rapid-fire hits, good for slower precision.
Activation point. Much like hysteresis, what's good for rapid-fire is different to slow precision. Bottoming out to make contact gives zero hysteresis and a form of feedback (the worst kind, but feedback nonetheless.)


Now, having said all that, I'm thinking the ideal gaming switch would activate right at the top of the travel. This could be done by using inverse electrical logic. Contact would normally be made when the key is untouched, and broken when the switch moves down. Logic chips would have to reverse the signal as needed. This would make some of the above choices totally irrelevant.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: AndrewZorn on Tue, 10 November 2009, 07:32:34
and the key would actuate when resting your fingers on it
but see, your post conditions are very subjective, and thus, it is gaming switch PROPERTIES (not switches) that people can argue about all day.

reliability is no more important here than anywhere else,
some like heavy switches,
i hate laptop-style keyboards,
blacks dont have tactile feedback and they are the gaymer switch...

etc
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 10 November 2009, 07:53:18
Quote from: AndrewZorn;131471
and the key would actuate when resting your fingers on it


No, it would be designed with enough pre-tension to stop that happening. E.g. movement only starts when 40g of force is applied, at which point a keystroke is instantly registered.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 26 November 2009, 20:28:10
I'm having a hard time comparing Cherry Browns to Cherry Blues, because my browns are in a Kinesis Contour configuration, and my blues are in a traditional flat Scorpius M10.

What's the difference between blue Cherries in keyboards with a huge price difference, such as a Scorpius M10 and a Filco? What am I getting with the Filco for the extra money?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 26 November 2009, 20:44:28
others will add to this, but I have had both the filco with blues and the scorpius M10. Aside from both using blue cherry switches, the filco is hands down a better made keyboard. The filco has a quality to it that the scorpius simply does not.

Aside from that, if the scorpius is working for you, and the soldering isn't failing, and you are ok with the overall build quallity,  then the scorpius is fine.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 27 November 2009, 04:18:17
Quote from: ricercar;136633
I have been getting an artificial audio feedback on the browns. I noticed the difference in no-audio feedback with strong regret when I broke the Kinesis programmable board and the electric click sound stopped working. I hadn't realized I was depending on the ear.


You could try NoisyKeyboard (http://www.leeos.com/noisy_keyboard.html) if you are on Windows.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 27 November 2009, 15:44:05
Quote from: bigpook;136637
the filco is hands down a better made keyboard. The filco has a quality to it that the scorpius simply does not. [if] you are ok with the overall build quallity,  then the scorpius is fine.


I was actually pleasantly surprised by the heft of the M10. But it does torque when I twist it. Now I want to hold a Filco, you bastard. :doh:
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 27 November 2009, 16:06:32
You can't twist an IBM. At all.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 27 November 2009, 16:29:41
lol, sorry ricercar. eventually you will get a filco. we all do : )
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 27 November 2009, 16:42:36
Quote from: Rajagra;131467
Perfect gaming keyboard:

Keys should work reliably. No failed keypresses. No bouncing.
Force. Light as possible without getting accidental presses.
Travel. Shorter the better for gaming performance, if truth be told.
Tactile feedback. Irrelevant if you're mashing keys. Useful if you don't and if it genuinely confirms a keypress that might not otherwise be obvious in-game.
Audible feedback. Same as tactile, unless you are on teamspeak etc, or find the sound distracting.
Hysteresis. Bad for rapid-fire hits, good for slower precision.
Activation point. Much like hysteresis, what's good for rapid-fire is different to slow precision. Bottoming out to make contact gives zero hysteresis and a form of feedback (the worst kind, but feedback nonetheless.)


Now, having said all that, I'm thinking the ideal gaming switch would activate right at the top of the travel. This could be done by using inverse electrical logic. Contact would normally be made when the key is untouched, and broken when the switch moves down. Logic chips would have to reverse the signal as needed. This would make some of the above choices totally irrelevant.


You basically said "Complicated ALPS".
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: patrickgeekhack on Fri, 27 November 2009, 21:13:36
Quote from: bigpook;136754
lol, sorry ricercar. eventually you will get a filco. we all do : )


This is pretty much a given :-) The only blue Cherries keyboard I have is the G80 and my Filco is the brown Cherries version. However, I can imagine blue Cherries Filco to be a pleasant one to type on.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ricercar on Fri, 27 November 2009, 23:18:00
Quote from: bigpook;136754
lol, sorry ricercar. eventually you will get a filco. we all do : )

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
 

Quote from: microsoft windows;136750
You can't twist an IBM. At all.


Can't twist my Lexmark Model Ms, Alaris Model M, Kinesis Contour, or my Northgate. Am I asking too much?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 28 November 2009, 07:37:05
Quote from: bigpook;136754
lol, sorry ricercar. eventually you will get a filco. we all do : )


I'll only get one if it's $5 on ebay or in the trash for some strange reason.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: hyperlinked on Sat, 28 November 2009, 09:15:05
Quote from: ricercar;136837
Can't twist my Lexmark Model Ms, Alaris Model M, Kinesis Contour, or my Northgate. Am I asking too much?


I guess this begs the question... why are you twisting your keyboards in the first place? :eek:
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 28 November 2009, 15:52:00
Quote from: hyperlinked;136916
I guess this begs the question... why are you twisting your keyboards in the first place? :eek:


Maybe it's a way to test their durability. Cheap rubber dome keyboards always twist.

By the way, do Northgates have double-shot keys?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Rajagra on Sat, 28 November 2009, 17:34:37
Quote from: ripster;136918
While cruising the hood I saw Ricercar preparing for the Keyboard Tearing Guiness Record.


Good motivation is important.
(http://www.g-ray.co.uk/pictures/1232638943_89a45ef.gif)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 28 November 2009, 18:33:39
damn, someone has the kung fu grip.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ricercar on Sat, 28 November 2009, 19:43:24
Quote from: microsoft windows;136999
do Northgates have double-shot keys?

Yes, for Northgate Ultra 102.

Letters and numbers - black text within white
Ctrl - red within beige
Shift - green within beige
Others - black within beige

Quote from: ripster;136918
I saw Ricercar preparing for the Keyboard Tearing Guiness Record.

And you wonder why I have all those extra key caps?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 29 November 2009, 09:33:14
Quote from: ripster;137027
Dang Ricercar.  What's the trick!!!

Show Image
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_kTaFrEr_318/SRmvNaTsfdI/AAAAAAAAAYY/d78b4hnZAGs/smash%20and%20break%20computer%20pc%20monitor%20with%20keyboard%5B12%5D.jpg)


Raj, it's the cig that makes that one soooo funny!
Oh no! That's my monitor!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5871&stc=1&d=1258905549)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sun, 29 November 2009, 09:44:19
Your monitor would probably be better for your eyes with a keyboard stuffed through it. 60Hz refresh rate... Awful... but then again, I also have a couple crappy monitors too.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 29 November 2009, 10:33:02
Nothing wrong with 60Hz... Oh wait, CRTs...
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Sun, 29 November 2009, 10:39:53
Quote from: ch_123;137143
Nothing wrong with 60Hz... Oh wait, CRTs...


I know CRT's all too well, all I have is CRTs.
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: ch_123 on Sun, 29 November 2009, 10:42:06
I attribute my still-good eyesight to the fact that there hasn't been a CRT monitor in my house since I was 12 years old...
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 29 November 2009, 11:43:47
How could you live without big old monitors?
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: keyb_gr on Mon, 30 November 2009, 02:58:25
Quote from: microsoft windows;137150
How could you live without big old monitors?
Perfectly fine, it seems.

My room has also been a CRT-free zone for over 6 years now. Otherwise the kind of time I spend in front of a monitor would not be doable. I must have had burning eyes very often back in the olden days. (Yours truly definitely is more sensitive to flicker than the average person.)
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Mon, 30 November 2009, 08:05:30
Quote from: microsoft windows;137150
How could you live without big old monitors?


I felt the same way until I picked up a good IPS panel
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: microsoft windows on Mon, 30 November 2009, 17:01:32
I have never owned a flat panel desktop monitor. But I might get an old Dell one soon if they throw it out...
Title: brown vs. blue cherry
Post by: porgo on Sat, 10 September 2011, 03:06:27
I recently got me a Filco with brown switches. Have to say, I think I prefer the blue (in Das Keyboard) or something. After years of blueing in, the browns feel like rubber dome :P

Well, my Filco packs other niceties so I try to adapt.


Edit: oopsy woopsy, bumpity bump.