Nerve pain with ErgoDox more than single boards?

[fendent]

I've been debating it, but after having used my ErgoDox Infinity for a month now, I'm probably going to switch back to a single board. Why? Ulnar nerve problems. Well, initially it was pain in the wrist, but moving it down off my desk back onto a keyboard tray with negative tilt helped with that. Then came the ring and pinky pain. I've started doing ulnar glides since I don't want this to be a thing and I really really enjoy using it. After having seen an orthopedist I was urged to go back to using my regular keyboard. I might give it a couple more weeks of regular glide stretches before I give up on it completely.

Single boards seemed to actually help me Because they forced me to move my wrists around instead of a static position where the flexation of the nerve through the cubital tunnel was the sole factor while typing.

Any recommendations? I'm hoping I'm just really stiff and some more exercises and maybe some kind of alteration to my setup will help?

[fendent]

I should say that tenting my Infinity has helped some but stacking two Grifiti wrist rests inbetween the two doesn't seem to be a good long-term solution. Are there recommendations for how to tent an Infinity?

[fendent]

My flagship standard board sits waiting in the wings. "So much money," it says, shaking its head slowly.

[need]

The static position thing is the reason why I have no intention is trying out the ErgoDox.
Seems like torture to me.

[dgneo]

Perhaps the switches are too heavy? What switches do you currently have in your Ergodox?

[fendent]

Perhaps the switches are too heavy? What switches do you currently have in your Ergodox?

Cherry Browns but I use Gateron Clears in my left ctrl and shift that my pinky hits (since I use them so much)

[davkol]

There's essentially nothing forcing you to keep your hands anchored in one spot on any keyboard. I move my hands around on my ErgoDox all the time, and I even did the same on the Kinesis Advantage, although the design rather discouraged such usage by default.

[jacobolus]

The static position thing is the reason why I have no intention is trying out the ErgoDox. Seems like torture to me.

What is “the static position thing”?

[jacobolus]

fendent: can you get a friend to take some photos of you typing, showing the keyboard and your whole torso (or at least hands/arms up to the shoulder)? Or ideally a video? (Or use a camera on a timer or whatever.)

There are at least 6 degrees of freedom in setting up an Ergodox relative to your body, not considering variations in body posture or typing style. So it’s hard to give useful advice without more concrete knowledge of your setup.

[chuckdee]

fendent: can you get a friend to take some photos of you typing, showing the keyboard and your whole torso (or at least hands/arms up to the shoulder)? Or ideally a video? (Or use a camera on a timer or whatever.)

There are at least 6 degrees of freedom in setting up an Ergodox relative to your body, not considering variations in body posture or typing style. So it’s hard to give useful advice without more concrete knowledge of your setup.

   No way to give exact advice on what might be wrong without this step.

[cheebs]

My flagship standard board sits waiting in the wings. "So much money," it says, shaking its head slowly.

Your problem looks pretty obvious to me from the pic.  You have your boards angled in a position that encourages ulnar deviation.  Why are they bowed out like that?  Try twisting them inward.  I've also seen some videos of people typing on doxes with horrendous finger kinking, particularly the pinky.  I imagine it has something to do with columnar layout or the distance of the thumb cluster.  If you still can't find a comfortable position, you may want to just try a split keyboard with a standard, staggered layout.  I cannot go back to a single board, and I wouldn't suggest you do it either.  Split format is, I think, the most universally agreed upon benefit offered by an ergo keyboard.

FWIW I use a matias ergo pro (tented, angled inward), writing code 8 hours a day (and then some more when I get home), no problems whatsoever.

[jacobolus]

This isn’t an Ergodox, but here’s an example of a roughly similar prototype keyboard set up (in a very hacky way) in a fairly comfortable, not too extreme manner:


Notice, it’s turned inward maybe 15°, tented about 30°, and tilted slightly downward at the far side.

If you want a long-term solution, I recommend mounting each half of your keyboard on a mini tripod or something, so that you can independently adjust the three-dimensional angles whenever you feel like it.

Here’s showman’s picture of a pretty aggressive tent on a Matias ErgoPro:


In general, your goal should be to have your hand in as neutral, relaxed a position as possible. Above all, make sure your wrist is as straight as you can manage. Carefully observe your body, and note any muscle strain in your fingers/hands/arms/shoulders. Ideally you want to have almost no static load on any part of your body, because over the course of hours, it will get fatigued, and over the course of months or years you can do yourself permanent harm. Bring your keyboard in close enough to your torso that you can type with your shoulders in a completely relaxed position (not shrugging upward or forward) with your upper arms hanging loosely down at your sides, and your elbows not significantly out to the side or out in front of your body.

You might need to adjust your desk and/or chair to get a comfortable working position. Most office furniture (including $1000 Aerons and so on) encourages a pretty ****ty posture. While actively typing, you want to be sitting up straight, not slouching, not hunched over.

I personally also recommend using some sculpted (e.g. DCS) keycaps on an Ergodox. Completely uniform caps like DSA can look nice, but are noticeably less comfortable.

[chuckdee]

My flagship standard board sits waiting in the wings. "So much money," it says, shaking its head slowly.

Your problem looks pretty obvious to me from the pic.  You have your boards angled in a position that encourages ulnar deviation.  Why are they bowed out like that?  Try twisting them inward.  I've also seen some videos of people typing on doxes with horrendous finger kinking, particularly the pinky.  I imagine it has something to do with columnar layout or the distance of the thumb cluster.  If you still can't find a comfortable position, you may want to just try a split keyboard with a standard, staggered layout.  I cannot go back to a single board, and I wouldn't suggest you do it either.  Split format is, I think, the most universally agreed upon benefit offered by an ergo keyboard.

FWIW I use a matias ergo pro (tented, angled inward), writing code 8 hours a day (and then some more when I get home), no problems whatsoever.

I thought he said that he just did that as an experiment to reduce the strain, i.e. that's a recent development.

[plainbriny]

Cherry Browns but I use Gateron Clears in my left ctrl and shift that my pinky hits (since I use them so much)

I think you should not use pinky for modifier keys, it defeat the purpose of ergonomic boards. Try moving all the modifiers to the thumb cluster. This should at least relieve your pinky pain.

[need]

Really, if you find it comfortable to type it's an ergonomic position.

I find a normal TKL VERY comfortable, meaning I can type all day without straining. Might just be my body built and my excellently relaxed positions and movements.

Ergodox only suits certain types of person, especially for unconventional shapes things have a huger effect from person to person.

[fendent]

Two things I will try today:

Angling the boards inward
Remapping Ctrl and Left Shift to the thumb cluster

We will see how it goes I suppose! I appreciate all the feedback.

[chuckdee]

Really, if you find it comfortable to type it's an ergonomic position.

That is not true.  Many people are comfortable with their typing position from a subjective view- especially as changing would be uncomfortable because it's different.  However, relative comfort and a lack of short term pain doesn't mean that you are not causing long term problems.

[need]

Really, if you find it comfortable to type it's an ergonomic position.

That is not true.  Many people are comfortable with their typing position from a subjective view- especially as changing would be uncomfortable because it's different.  However, relative comfort and a lack of short term pain doesn't mean that you are not causing long term problems.

The baseline to feel natural.
No products know you better than yourself.

Especially not a 1 size fits all mass-produced one.

[chuckdee]

Really, if you find it comfortable to type it's an ergonomic position.

That is not true.  Many people are comfortable with their typing position from a subjective view- especially as changing would be uncomfortable because it's different.  However, relative comfort and a lack of short term pain doesn't mean that you are not causing long term problems.

The baseline to feel natural.
No products know you better than yourself.

Especially not a 1 size fits all mass-produced one.

Not saying that the products are one size fits all or know you better than yourself.  Just disputing that just because it feels natural it is ergonomically correct.  Especially as most typists develop a natural feel, so anything- even ergonomically better- is going to feel unnatural until time is taken to adjust.

[need]

Really, if you find it comfortable to type it's an ergonomic position.

That is not true.  Many people are comfortable with their typing position from a subjective view- especially as changing would be uncomfortable because it's different.  However, relative comfort and a lack of short term pain doesn't mean that you are not causing long term problems.

The baseline to feel natural.
No products know you better than yourself.

Especially not a 1 size fits all mass-produced one.

Not saying that the products are one size fits all or know you better than yourself.  Just disputing that just because it feels natural it is ergonomically correct.  Especially as most typists develop a natural feel, so anything- even ergonomically better- is going to feel unnatural until time is taken to adjust.

Be careful, because the thing that you're trying to adjust to might not even suit you.
How do you know it's good for you? Because the hype says so?
Hard work does not equal to good results.

At the end of the day, you still have to trust your gut feeling.

[davkol]

… Because the hype says so? …

The Split Keyboard: An Ergonomics Success Story (PDF)

Overall, the research literature demonstrates a number of important lessons. First, subjective preference may not be sensitive to ergonomic benefits for devices that are used repetitively but require low activation forces. Second, health benefits of ergonomic keyboards were not apparent in short-term (2- to 5-day) studies of discomfort and pain but were observed only after 4 months of use.

[algernon]

I think we should not conflate ergonomic with comfortable. Something far from ergonomic may feel very comfortable to some, while some other, research-proven ergonomic thing may not.

Just because it feels comfortable, it is not ergonomic. Likewise, just because it is ergonomic, it may not feel comfortable at all.

[need]

Likewise, just because it is ergonomic, it may not feel comfortable at all.

How is it supposed to be healthier if it feels uncomfortable at the first place?

[davkol]

Because people get used to lots of weird stuff, mostly because everyone does it the same way or because it's convenient in the short term.  Why do people sit so much? Even while taking a dump? Why do people wear high heels? …?

Also, see the paper above.

[algernon]

Likewise, just because it is ergonomic, it may not feel comfortable at all.

How is it supposed to be healthier if it feels uncomfortable at the first place?

To add to what davkol said:

Because one size does not fit all. Or because - off the top of my head - potato is healthy, yet lots of people hate the taste. Or - a counterexample - excess amounts of chocolate or bacon is definitely unhealthy, yet, all so delicious.

[fendent]

Pictures! The pain continues...

[need]

Pictures! The pain continues...

It looks so forced and ucomfortble...maybe widen up the distance?

[tp4tissue]

Pictures! The pain continues...

You're not tented high enough.. and no one sits straight like that for a long time, except for foto-day..

hahaha..


I discovered early on that split keyboards need extreme tenting..

I have 10cm tenting on the -inside screw hole- of my ergodox using a standoff kit + 2x 50mm m3 bolts.

http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Standoff-Head-Screw/dp/B00CTWD4EQ?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

http://www.amazon.com/Alloy-Steel-Socket-Machine-Screw/dp/B00W97N5F4/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1463757717&sr=8-2&keywords=50mm+m3+bolt

[fendent]

Pictures! The pain continues...

It looks so forced and ucomfortble...maybe widen up the distance?

So, I'll have to move them up higher off the keyboard tray to widen them up, which introduces a height problem from my chair...hm

Pictures! The pain continues...

You're not tented high enough.. and no one sits straight like that for a long time, except for foto-day..

hahaha..


I discovered early on that split keyboards need extreme tenting..

I have 10cm tenting on the -inside screw hole- of my ergodox using a standoff kit + 2x 50mm m3 bolts.

http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Standoff-Head-Screw/dp/B00CTWD4EQ?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

http://www.amazon.com/Alloy-Steel-Socket-Machine-Screw/dp/B00W97N5F4/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1463757717&sr=8-2&keywords=50mm+m3+bolt

I actually have started sitting up that straight recently since I started physical therapy for my leg problems haha. I'll see about using screws for tenting. I couldn't figure out how to use a tripod as seen above.

[jacobolus]

(Caveat: none of us here are doctors or physical therapists, so take what we say with healthy skepticism.)

Do you have your palms/wrists resting on some surface? If so, I recommend trying to avoid that while actively typing, to see if that might help. From the picture it looks like you are slightly extending your wrists (bending them upward), and could also be pressing on a nerve or other soft tissue. It might help to bring the keyboard slightly closer to your torso (e.g. by scooting your chair slightly forward). Try to angle the top of the keyboard so that it’s roughly parallel to your palms/forearms when your wrists are in a relaxed, neutral position.

If you just lightly rest your fingers on the home row, without typing, relax as best you can, and concentrate for a few minutes on how your arms and hands feel. Can you feel any strain or muscle tension, anywhere from your fingers up through your shoulders and back? If so, is there any way you can change your position which reduces that tension? Ideally you want to have as little static load as possible, if you plan to stay in the same position for long periods of time (not just for typing, but for any repetitive/long running activity).

One thing I do is take frequent tiny breaks (ideally for at least a few minutes every 40–60m) and switch positions from time to time, which relaxes any muscles which have been under static tension. I have an adjustable-height desk and a highly adjustable seat, so I sometimes sit on it high saddle style, sometimes sit on it like a regular chair, occasionally tilt it back and lounge a bit, sometimes stand, sometimes walk around thinking for a bit, sometimes take a laptop or book or pad of paper over a couch and lie down for a while, etc.

One last thing is: it’s possible to put extra load on muscles by tensing two opposed muscles at the same time, even if the position itself doesn’t require it. Sometimes when doing an unfamiliar activity, if I’m focusing hard on getting the motions right, I’ll find myself unconsciously tensing up the muscles in that area.

[fendent]

(Caveat: none of us here are doctors or physical therapists, so take what we say with healthy skepticism.)

Do you have your palms/wrists resting on some surface? If so, I recommend trying to avoid that while actively typing, to see if that might help. From the picture it looks like you are slightly extending your wrists (bending them upward), and could also be pressing on a nerve or other soft tissue. It might help to bring the keyboard slightly closer to your torso (e.g. by scooting your chair slightly forward). Try to angle the top of the keyboard so that it’s roughly parallel to your palms/forearms when your wrists are in a relaxed, neutral position.

If you just lightly rest your fingers on the home row, without typing, relax as best you can, and concentrate for a few minutes on how your arms and hands feel. Can you feel any strain or muscle tension, anywhere from your fingers up through your shoulders and back? If so, is there any way you can change your position which reduces that tension? Ideally you want to have as little static load as possible, if you plan to stay in the same position for long periods of time (not just for typing, but for any repetitive/long running activity).

One thing I do is take frequent tiny breaks (ideally for at least a few minutes every 40–60m) and switch positions from time to time, which relaxes any muscles which have been under static tension. I have an adjustable-height desk and a highly adjustable seat, so I sometimes sit on it high saddle style, sometimes sit on it like a regular chair, occasionally tilt it back and lounge a bit, sometimes stand, sometimes walk around thinking for a bit, sometimes take a laptop or book or pad of paper over a couch and lie down for a while, etc.

One last thing is: it’s possible to put extra load on muscles by tensing two opposed muscles at the same time, even if the position itself doesn’t require it. Sometimes when doing an unfamiliar activity, if I’m focusing hard on getting the motions right, I’ll find myself unconsciously tensing up the muscles in that area.

Yeah, I don't rest my wrists on anything while typing. That was how I originally notice carpal tunnel stress and that has unfortunately been headed off. I'll try out spending a couple minutes sitting how I would normally. And yeah I do notice that if I'm in my OCD mode I do tense up when I'm trying to examine what my body is doing.

[fendent]

Ok so moving my keyboard tray to nearly on my lap has helped quite a bit. The pinching is now on the side of my wrist nearest my thumb so theoretically once I get some tenting going, that should ease up that point. 

[kurplop]

I'm glad to hear that you're getting some relief by shifting your tray location. Having a tray and properly adjusting it has been an important step in painless keyboarding for me. In spite of some who may advise against it, I recently found out how important my arm rests are as part of my ergo set up. A few years ago I modified my Steelcase Leap by replacing the arm cushions with some homemade super padded ones I and have been using them uninterrupted until a few months ago when my chair was temporarily unavailable for use. The next few weeks were miserable using an armless task chair. I depend heavily on the arm support for positioning my hands in a very relaxed position. The arm rests keeps my arms supported in the right place and the cushy padding prevents pressure spots and irritations.

I believe the ulnar nerve can become impinged from pressure on the underside of the forearm close to the elbow but I've never had a problem using this technique.

[jacobolus]

Finally, if you keep trying and the Ergodox keeps causing you pain no matter how you try to adjust it, listen to your body and switch back to something that doesn’t cause the pain. Every person is different and there’s no one-shape-fits-all with keyboards. :-)

[tp4tissue]

The lower your elbows are relative to your body,  the more tenting is required..

the Higher your elbows are the less tenting..


If your seat can not accomodate you lowering your elbows, then first try sitting higher, but you might need a foot rest..

if this is not possible, try adding arm rests to your seat which prop up your arm,

the higher your arms are,  the less tenting is required.. because ur forearm remains in neutral position.