Why aren't high end thick pbt keycap sets more popular?

[bmilcs]

Personally, I'm not a fan of anything I've received from Signature Plastics.

DSA and SA are very disappointing. Nothing has come close to my beloved Gaterons / EnjoyPBT sets.

Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.

Aside from this forum's community, and organizing a group buy, are we basically out of luck?

[xondat]

Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.

BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.

There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.

[zslane]

High-end PBT keycaps (apart from DSA) aren't spherical. Therefore they are dead to me.

[bloorocket]

This is a niche market.
Hence GH does IC to make sure Supply-Demand-Profit chain is not disrupted.

[ThoughtArtist]

They are just more difficult to produce, right? Isn't that why you see almost all doubleshots in ABS and so many ABS spacebars on otherwise PBT sets?

I like PBT as well, but it seems more utilitarian and less "fashionable". Maybe if they were both equally easy to produce you would see more PBT sets since they resist wear better. I know I feel like I barely want to use my GMK set because it was pricey and I don't want to make them look unevenly shiny.

That being said, Varmilo seems to make some more colored sets to mix and match with. Mechanical Keyboards.com is about to get some sets in. I have a Varmilo TKL with Grey PBT that looks really good (a nice bright, clean looking hue) and I am thinking about getting some more colors to mix in.

[Niomosy]

They're more difficult to make and the large vendors like GMK and SP tend to be pretty well established with ABS for doubleshots. 

[zslane]

Vortex makes double-shot PBT keysets, but the results aren't ideal from what I hear. And they aren't nearly as thick as hardcore PBT fans would prefer. The thicker you make the shell, the harder it is to produce a successful double-shot. And since this is so niche, not a lot of R&D money is going into perfecting the process for thick PBT.

[Sneaky Potato]

Would anyone else love to see some BSP, IMSTO, EnjoyPBT, or Gateron group buys? To see one of these manufacturers create some of the beautiful color schemes would be a real treat.

There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.

I think you nailed it. I mean signature plastics barely has enough demand for a lot of their stuff to even make it worth their while to keep stock. It comes down to a business decision IMO.

[Photekq]

BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.

There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.

BSP do produce keycaps; they just don't dyesub them anymore.

There is a market for $100+ keysets though, as Massdrop just proved with GMK Carbon (not even PBT), and enjoypbt sets are always priced lower than $100.

[SKD]

Time and time again I have added SP keysets to the basket ready to checkout, but never pulled the trigger. I mainly wanted them for the colours, not so much their profile. I don't get the fuss about them really. I love my cherry profile sets I have at the moment, one custom made with front legends and one blank.

[Waateva]

BSP no longer produce caps, and ePBT/Gateron are the same company that regularly sell keysets. Lots of 'high end' keysets are sold regularly such as Hyperfuse, Cyan, Sky Dolch etc.

There isn't a massive market for $150+ keysets though.

BSP do produce keycaps; they just don't dyesub them anymore.

There is a market for $100+ keysets though, as Massdrop just proved with GMK Carbon (not even PBT), and enjoypbt sets are always priced lower than $100.

Is it true BSP doesn't produce spacebars as well?

[zslane]

I don't get the fuss about them really.

They are spherical. That is the fuss.

If you don't hunger for spherical keycaps, then you'll never "get" the appeal of SP's keycaps. Yes, I know they have their DCS profile, but nobody designs custom keysets in DCS now that SA has a complete set of profile molds.

[bmilcs]

Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.

[KHAANNN]

I like GMK because of their consistency of legends/placements

Many dye-jobs are comical, they are disproportional, childish etc.

I like IMSTO produced keycaps, comparing them to GMK's, the top row was aligned top, while on GMK keycaps, they are not aligned exactly to the top, both are ok. tho

I liked the Vortex molds for bumped F/J's, they are the best bumped F/J's I've used, however the keycaps themselves are sub-par, as the stem part is visible from the top - Gateron doesn't have this issue, yet they have the scooped+bumped F/J's, which most people like, but I would rather have flat bumped F/J's

There's also the warping, I've heard people complain of warped EnjoyPBT spacebars

When you consider all these, it's just simpler to go with GMK ABS's - but I do agree that PBT feels much better

Dream: Gateron extending their blank keycap collection + IMSTO doing custom dye-jobs, so we can have the best keycaps with whatever written on them, for all absurd layouts

[zslane]

Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.

And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... 

[bmilcs]

Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.

And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... 

I'm actually making a spreadsheet of original costs right now. Planning on selling Pulse for sure... and upcoming Nantucket Selectric ...

DSA isn't so bad. I'm not going to lie... DSA has the best key texture/feel of any keycap I've tried... but I like Cherry Profile the most.

What I want is DSA texture, BSP GMK quality/thickness, with GMK/SP colors, in PBT.

[bmilcs]

Cherry Profile is king. I am curious about DCS but they seem overly countored.

And yet, two out of the three keyboards in your signature sport spherical sets from SP... 

I'm actually making a spreadsheet of original costs right now. Planning on selling Pulse for sure... and upcoming Nantucket Selectric ...

DSA isn't so bad. I'm not going to lie... DSA has the best key texture/feel of any keycap I've tried... but I like Cherry Profile the most.

What I want is DSA texture, BSP GMK quality/thickness, with GMK/SP colors, in PBT.

My Pok3r has to go. I think I'm going to splurge after selling and build a godly Phantom TKL with Silver TEX. Full programmability

[SBJ]

Not exactly blown away by the sets I've got from Signature Plastics either.
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.

[zslane]

Not exactly blown away by the sets I've got from Signature Plastics either.
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.

Do you anticipate disappointment when Amazing Chocolatier arrives?

[SBJ]

Not exactly blown away by the sets I've got from Signature Plastics either.
I'd love some thick pbt sets though.

Do you anticipate disappointment when Amazing Chocolatier arrives?

It's possible. I'm still probably getting it though.

[Khers]

.

[zslane]

I think the limitations of the dyesub process tend to channel keysets into bland gray territory (and we can think of biege as a sort of "warm gray" for all intents and purposes). It's rare that you see dyesub PBT sets like Galaxy Class. Plus, I kinda get the feeling that the "thick PBT" crowd is rather conservative in their colorway palette preferences and elect to stay firmly out of unicorn vomit territory.

[KHAANNN]

I think the limitations of the dyesub process tend to channel keysets into bland gray territory (and we can think of biege as a sort of "warm gray" for all intents and purposes). It's rare that you see dyesub PBT sets like Galaxy Class. Plus, I kinda get the feeling that the "thick PBT" crowd is rather conservative in their colorway palette preferences and elect to stay firmly out of unicorn vomit territory.

There are exceptions too: https://www.originativeco.com/products/pbt-valentine

I kind of fancy the alphas, could make an interesting combo with GMK Bluegaloo's

[Adgar]

To be honest,I don't like the DSA Keycap which make my fingers feel uncomfortable.

[bmilcs]

To be honest,I don't like the DSA Keycap which make my fingers feel uncomfortable.

Is the surface of the keys or the DSA profile responsible?

[Niomosy]

I think more could be done with dyesub but it doesn't seem like many are exploring those avenues.  If anything, dyesub ends up with more discussion surrounding fonts than colors.  I'm curious to see how things progress with Matt3o's high profile PBT caps.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like Skeletor's purple text on a lighter blue or other more colorful options.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

I'd say it's outside of the affordability for many people honestly, if you look at the percentage of cheap mechanicals sold versus higher end ones in the market i doubt too many people as a whole within this niche of a niche are willing to shellout that sort of coin for keycaps outside of folks like us here.  And as much as i have spent on the hobby honestly had i not acquired my BSP set via trade i would have not spent that much cash on them personally.  (Though i say this having bought a Midnight DCS set with no review discount)

[KHAANNN]

I'd say it's outside of the affordability for many people honestly, if you look at the percentage of cheap mechanicals sold versus higher end ones in the market i doubt too many people as a whole within this niche of a niche are willing to shellout that sort of coin for keycaps outside of folks like us here.  And as much as i have spent on the hobby honestly had i not acquired my BSP set via trade i would have not spent that much cash on them personally.  (Though i say this having bought a Midnight DCS set with no review discount)

How does DCS compare?

[LiquidEvilGaming]

I'd say it's outside of the affordability for many people honestly, if you look at the percentage of cheap mechanicals sold versus higher end ones in the market i doubt too many people as a whole within this niche of a niche are willing to shellout that sort of coin for keycaps outside of folks like us here.  And as much as i have spent on the hobby honestly had i not acquired my BSP set via trade i would have not spent that much cash on them personally.  (Though i say this having bought a Midnight DCS set with no review discount)

How does DCS compare?

The profile is nice being similar to Cherry profile and the midnight set is gorgeous IMO but for doubleshot ABS the plastic is disappointingly verh thin sadly.

[xtrafrood]

DOUBLESHOT PBT SA CHALLENGE (PMK/SP/EnjoyPBT..) -- HUZZAH!

[zslane]

Yes, please.

[KHAANNN]

I want this keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/Realforce-104UG-High-Profile-Black-Gray/dp/B00DONW9D6/

I wouldn't use it as a daily/regular driver, yet I just want to experience it

[zslane]

I have the 104UK Hi-Pro, and it is a really cool keyboard. I don't use it as my daily driver, for various reasons, but I still think highly of it.

[zephyr11]

I agree with the cost issues. I would love to be able to afford  $150+ keycap sets, but fact is I cannot justify it. in fact, I don't even feel comfortable with spending more then a $100 for keycaps. though I agree they are the first point of contact, but end of the day, I feel the keycaps should be at most same price or lower then the board. and yes, I know the solution is to get a more expensive board, but that's besides the point.

[clappingcactus]

Yeah, I'd kill for some pretty colour SA PBT blanks. I'm probably going to have to custom order a set at some point given how impossible it is to get momentum going on group buys for this sort of stuff from what I've seen.

[Data]

How can you not like SA?

[KHAANNN]

I have the 104UK Hi-Pro, and it is a really cool keyboard. I don't use it as my daily driver, for various reasons, but I still think highly of it.

(Attachment Link)

That's some nice keycaps, thanks for sharing

Yeah, I'd kill for some pretty colour SA PBT blanks. I'm probably going to have to custom order a set at some point given how impossible it is to get momentum going on group buys for this sort of stuff from what I've seen.

Did you ask for a quote, it might be super affordable, if they are willing to make them - they also update their pricing post-jobs, so PBT blanks might be cheap, you might get a custom set made cheap, they would realise the potential and increase the prices later on

[Findecanor]

Signature Plastics promised to sell blank DCS-profile PBT sets a year or so ago on PimpMyKeyboard.com but they never did.
That would have been nice. I prefer their surface texture with coarser grit than the norm on Cherry and OEM profile keys, as well as their more acute angle on the ZXCVB row. I don't find the thickness of the side walls to be important at all.

Cherry profile is nice though in that different manufacturers' keys are very much the same so you could mix and match keys on the same board. I would not want to mix DCS and Cherry profile.

[bmilcs]

How can you not like SA?

Show Image

1. Ergonomics... Far too tall. OEM  & DSA are decent, Cherry is just right
2. Too sculpted. I find it awkward when typing and prone to errors. I don't want keys to hug my fingers, resisting lateral and horizontal movement.
3. Cheap feeling. Maybe it's just me. Compared to my Enjoypbt / Gateron PBT which feel substantial and perfectly contoured.

I have almost completely sworn off ABS, but giving it one more shot via the GMK bandwagon. Cherry profile and thick sounds nice.

I should note that I work on the computer for a living and average ~120-125 wpm.

[bmilcs]

I would love to try DCS. That profile seems fantastic, but in thick PBT. What a killer combo that would be.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

How can you not like SA?

Show Image

1. Ergonomics... Far too tall. OEM  & DSA are decent, Cherry is just right
2. Too sculpted. I find it awkward when typing and prone to errors. I don't want keys to hug my fingers, resisting lateral and horizontal movement.
3. Cheap feeling. Maybe it's just me. Compared to my Enjoypbt / Gateron PBT which feel substantial and perfectly contoured.

I have almost completely sworn off ABS, but giving it one more shot via the GMK bandwagon. Cherry profile and thick sounds nice.

I should note that I work on the computer for a living and average ~120-125 wpm.

I think we have similar thoughts on SA, i don't use my computer as my living but i type 90-100 WPM and i can't stand SA, it LOOKS gorgeous but to actually use is another story.

[KHAANNN]

I think we have similar thoughts on SA, i don't use my computer as my living but i type 90-100 WPM and i can't stand SA, it LOOKS gorgeous but to actually use is another story.

I roughly agree

bmilcs, I don't think the feeling is cheap tho, far from it, it makes me cry that the keycaps are so extremely high, as the keycaps themselves feel awesome, I just wish I could use them, but like you guys, I can't, they just look good and that's it

The main reason I don't like them is their stem, it's not recessed like OEM/Cherry, all SP keycaps, DSA, SA, DCS have flat stems, so you lose from the height

It's a huge waste if you are using Cherry stabilisers for example

The main reason is probably SP not wanting to deal with issues of a recessed stem, kind of makes sense, I drill my Cherry profile keycaps for Costar stabs for example, I don't need to do it with OEM/DSA/SA

While typing, my wrists touch the desk, that's how low I type, with SA I'm forced to change my typing

Anyway, without further blabbering, if there was a readily available decent SA set, I would buy it in an instant + If I had a month of hobby time on my hands, I might manually shorten their stems

[clappingcactus]

Did you ask for a quote, it might be super affordable, if they are willing to make them - they also update their pricing post-jobs, so PBT blanks might be cheap, you might get a custom set made cheap, they would realise the potential and increase the prices later on

Just sent the e-mail. I asked for the price of 20x four different colored blank 1X SA PBT caps. It'd go on my VE.A at some point, and I'd probably grab the mods from the upcoming Penumbra group buys/drops anyway. If the price isn't exorbitant, I'll ask for how much the mods would cost. I know one off ABS custom sets are around $700, which is why I'm hesitant to ask them for the price on the PBTs for a one off.

The price they give me should be telling though, considering I'm asking for a single shot, and the order size is not very big,

[zslane]

Nobody makes high-profile spherical keycaps in PBT except Topre. Is that who you are trying to get a quote from?

[clappingcactus]

Nobody makes high-profile spherical keycaps in PBT except Topre. Is that who you are trying to get a quote from?

Maybe I misunderstood something because I'm relatively new, but Signature Plastics is who I contacted. I thought the SA profile is owned by them?

[zslane]

You are correct that SA is exclusive to Signature Plastics. However, they are not able to use PBT with their SA molds. Nor are they able to double-shot PBT.

[clappingcactus]

Ah damn. I already knew about the double-shot limitation but thought the lack of readily available SA PBT keycaps on their sale site was just because they readily sell out.

[KHAANNN]

You never know tho, best to ask :)

As a tip, when asking for a quote, ask for a broad one, like how much does it cost to manufacture one 1u keycap based on the quantity, so they might tell you that 1-10 costs this much, 10-100, 1000+ etc. - better for both sides - otherwise you are missing out the sweet spot in pricing, you can even pay the same amount for less keycaps

[clappingcactus]

zslane turned out to be correct as expected. Looks like matt3o on DT is working on something, though. Here's to hoping.

[Niomosy]

zslane turned out to be correct as expected. Looks like matt3o on DT is working on something, though. Here's to hoping.

Yup.  Right now the goal is for dyesub.  Doubleshot might be attempted later if money allows but that's a big "if" currently.