Ultimate Hacking Keyboard

[jdcarpe]

This is a novel concept...

Ultimate Hacking Keyboard

A 60% keyboard which can split in the middle to become an ergonomic keyboard.

The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has been designed to be better in so many ways. Are you one of those demanding users who want to achieve greater productivity and comfort? Did you know that you only utilize 9 of your 10 fingers on regular keyboards? Want to type in a more natural posture on a truly high-quality keyboard and reach the mouse quicker, while moving your hands far less? If so, read on.

It looks to be going to a crowdfunding campaign soon.

What do you all think?

[jdcarpe]

Reserved

[Frenir]

Definitely interesting. Not a fan of the buttons below the split space-bar though.

[JinDesu]

MX switches it seems

[blackbox]

I doubt thathe t cable organiser is going to last long. I have har plenty of broken Cable organizers that use that style.

[hashbaz]

The mouse layer has me very interested.  Name-boosting off of the HHKB seems kinda lame.

[spiceBar]

This is a novel concept...

Ultimate Hacking Keyboard

A 60% keyboard which can split in the middle to become an ergonomic keyboard.

Show Image

Show Image

The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has been designed to be better in so many ways. Are you one of those demanding users who want to achieve greater productivity and comfort? Did you know that you only utilize 9 of your 10 fingers on regular keyboards? Want to type in a more natural posture on a truly high-quality keyboard and reach the mouse quicker, while moving your hands far less? If so, read on.

It looks to be going to a crowdfunding campaign soon.

What do you all think?

Interesting. There are a lot of good ideas.

I don't like:
- The shape of the keyboard: these two triangles on top are ugly and I don't like that it is going to waste space on my desk. Please remove any wasted space around the keys.
- The location of the Super key. Let me move it if I want, don't force it on me.
- Redundant shortcuts. Mod+D to do Alt-Tab? Mod+Q to do Ctrl-W? No sorry this is not going in the right direction.
- The multiple layers. This is trying to please everyone at the cost of adding keys (Fn) or hijacking existing ones (Caps Lock). There is no need for all these layers. What is needed is full programmability. With that, a main layer and an Fn layer will be enough.

I see that they promise to open source the firmware, so my last point may quickly have a solution.

I don't mean to be negative. There are many good things in this keyboard.

[Puddsy]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

[bueller]

Looks like an interesting idea but I HATE keyboards that use unusual key sizings. They've butchered the entire right hand side just for the sake of symmetry, instant turn off for me.

[Frenir]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

[Puddsy]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

I didn't know it was weird until a few days ago lol.

[MTManiac]

definitely a balls to the wall design

[SpAmRaY]

Did the guy doing this not post here recently? Or maybe that was on DT...I get around a lot.

[bueller]

Did the guy doing this not post here recently? Or maybe that was on DT...I get around a lot.

You slut! huehuehue

[spiceBar]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

I think the Mod and Space keys are swappable, so relax.

[FrostyToast]

The only thing I really like about this is the split spacebar on a 60%

[hoggy]

I'll be looking out for this one.

[tribade]

Did the guy doing this not post here recently? Or maybe that was on DT...I get around a lot.

Yeah I'm pretty sure I saw that topic.  Can't find it now for the life of me, though...

[tp4tissue]

Every single one of those tractable type cables I've ever used.. were destroyed eventually or became intermittent.

If this doesn't have a replacement cable system.. then I believe it's an absolute NO GO.....


I'm also not sure who this board would appeal to.. if you think about it.. there's the majority of N00bies and Old-die-hards  who are obsessed with  svelte rectangles...

Then there's the dudez who are obsessed with Function, who'd rather have the ergodox..


The middle ground for these people is much smaller...

[Puddsy]

Every single one of those tractable type cables I've ever used.. were destroyed eventually or became intermittent.

If this doesn't have a replacement cable system.. then I believe it's an absolute NO GO.....

I didn't even think of that

It could be a real problem, too.

[FrostyToast]

Every single one of those tractable type cables I've ever used.. were destroyed eventually or became intermittent.

If this doesn't have a replacement cable system.. then I believe it's an absolute NO GO.....

Yeah... replaceable cables would be nice.
Not just because the keyboard would see a longer lifespan, but also because you can get some custom cable bling. Mmmmm cable bling.

[SpAmRaY]

Did the guy doing this not post here recently? Or maybe that was on DT...I get around a lot.

Yeah I'm pretty sure I saw that topic.  Can't find it now for the life of me, though...

I think this was the thread I remember reading http://deskthority.net/product-news-f44/introducing-the-ultimate-hacking-keyboard-t8238.html

[cooldiscretion]

I think it's really nice they are trying to bring something new to the market. Something that hasn't been done before. I can see there is room for improvement, but some of the issues might be resolved in the next version - or for that matter the first version to be mass produced. I have a feeling that the person buying this keyboard won't be switching their preferred method of using it often (split or unsplit), but it's nice to have that option.

[luisbg]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

If they really want to call it a Hacking keyboard they should provide a good programmable layer in which you can remap most buttons.
I would be very disappointed if they don't think people will want to switch Mod and Space around.

[Frenir]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

If they really want to call it a Hacking keyboard they should provide a good programmable layer in which you can remap most buttons.
I would be very disappointed if they don't think people will want to switch Mod and Space around.

I assume you would always be able to change it on the OS level, or maybe the Mod-key can't be detected and changed.

[Findecanor]

- The location of the Super key. Let me move it if I want, don't force it on me.

Agreed. If the right-hand side was only 0.5 key wider, all mods on the bottom row could have been 1.25 wide and interchangeable, and they would have been able to support ISO layout with the same PCB.

It seems like the bridge cable is needed only if you split the keyboard. The bridge cable seems to use modular connectors so it could be easily replaced.

The use of modular connectors, magnets and extra thumb keys suggest to me that the designer is on here and/or on Deskthority, and has been keeping attention.

Anyway, this is still only a 3D rendering, a concept model, so I expect it to be revised a bit. The modular connector and the LED characters on the left-hand side would occupy the same space.

[davkol]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

[luisbg]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Care you share the opinions that made you decide "Nope"?

[Pacifist]

seems pretty cool

add software based programming, its much easier IMO than hitting a bunch of buttons to get it the way you want

[davkol]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Care you share the opinions that made you decide "Nope"?

Tacky name.
Non-standard, but still asymmetrical staggered layout.
Ugly case and something tells me it's not going to be light either.
Boasts about open source, but the development model is a complete cathedral so far.
Price estimate on par with Axios/ErgoDox/ErgoPro/...

As a potential customer, I don't see any reason to get it over Matias Ergo Pro, which appears to be better looking, more ergonomic and well supported. Actually, except licensing, but then there are the other projects.

[davkol]

BTW am I the only one to thing that the point about NKRO is just wrong?

NKRO stands for N-Key Rollover. It means that you can press every key at the same time and every one will be received by your computer. This is important because almost every keyboard is only 6KRO (meaning it can send only 6 keys at once and usually less) which can be problematic for gaming.

[luisbg]

I take back what I said. This looks very promising 

[mondalaci]

seems pretty cool

add software based programming, its much easier IMO than hitting a bunch of buttons to get it the way you want

Thanks!  Given the complex feature set, on-keyboard programming would be a torture so offering software based programming has been the plan from the get-go.

[Findecanor]

No name-boosting off of the HHKB.  On 08/2007 when I came up with the concept and the name I haven't even heard about the HHKB.

The guy who designed the logo has - that is obvious.
I myself had heard about the HHKB for more than a decade before I became a keyboard enthusiast.

The retractable cable is replaceable because it uses RJ11 jacks like your standard phone cable.

RJ11 is technically a telephone standard that uses only two contacts on each modular connector. I suppose that your cable has at least four leads. It would be more correct to say which type of modular connector you use.

Tacky name.

Yes! Why don't you tack on the word "Extreme" at the end also and call the Cherry MX Brown version the "Stealth Edition" ... 

[absyrd]

Thanks for the clarifications. Even though it may not be the board for me, it is nice seeing people progress the market.

[mondalaci]

No name-boosting off of the HHKB.  On 08/2007 when I came up with the concept and the name I haven't even heard about the HHKB.

The guy who designed the logo has - that is obvious.

You're making things up - that is obvious.  Think whatever you want and call me a liar if it makes you feel better.  I'm done with this.

[Findecanor]

You can't deny that there are similarities between the logos, and not only the form factor and the names of the keyboards.
I wouldn't be surprised if you would get into a trademark dispute.

Even if it is true that you came up with the branding yourselves, I find it implausible that you would be able to  prove that you at any time in the last eighteen years wouldn't have heard of or seen the HHKB anywhere in some magazine or on some web page or in real life.

[dorkvader]

All in all it looks promising.

There were a couple of potential issues I saw (that retractable cable, programmability, etc.) but they have mostly been addressed thus far.

Just a few points:
* It looks like it uses a 4p4c modular connector to connenct the halves. Is that the case or is it something else? I'd love to use a nice coiled WYSE cable.
* I noticed the line of pins at the front to connect the halves. I really like that and think it's implemented better than it could have been (way to go!). Of course, it's sill a potential fragile area for failure. DO you have any thing to address this: stronger than usual leafs? a protective cover piece you can install?

Just out of curiosity: why did you choose those bendable leafs instead of (for example) pogopins that seem to be more prevalent?

Boasts about open source, but the development model is a complete cathedral so far.

Open source does NOT mean open development. I would say the biggest issue I see with the bazaar is feature creep, which is usually completely avoided with closed development / open source model. This is a very workable development strategy and I have seen it work out very well in the past.

For example, just look at the ergodox development thread.

open source / closed development is a much better idea for a hardware model, where your time to make prototypes and iterations is on the order of days / weeks, compared with minutes / hours for compiling new iterations on a software project. If someone wants to add a new feature to a software project, they can do so without greatly impacting the release timeline. If you want to make even a slight change to a hardware project, each one sets it back weeks. There comes a point where you have to call enough "enough" and push to production. With all the "noise" of peaople requesting features int eh bazaar, the cathedral makes a lot of sense here.

Keep in mind the cathedral / bazaar analogy was originally applied to open software, and I would argue that it has little relevance to open hardware and hardware design / developments.

Just my thoughts of course.

[mondalaci]

You can't deny that there are similarities between the logos, and not only the form factor and the names of the keyboards.
I wouldn't be surprised if you would get into a trademark dispute.

Thanks for bringing this into our attention.  Yes, we can see some similarities but we'd rather like to move forward instead of infinitely worrying about this.  Hopefully, we won't ever have to deal with it.  We wouldn't deserve a trademark dispute given that  we used our original design.

[mondalaci]

* It looks like it uses a 4p4c modular connector to connenct the halves. Is that the case or is it something else? I'd love to use a nice coiled WYSE cable.

It's 6p4c, actually.  Luckily for you coiled 6p4c cables do exist.

* I noticed the line of pins at the front to connect the halves. I really like that and think it's implemented better than it could have been (way to go!). Of course, it's sill a potential fragile area for failure. DO you have any thing to address this: stronger than usual leafs? a protective cover piece you can install?

Just out of curiosity: why did you choose those bendable leafs instead of (for example) pogopins that seem to be more prevalent?

Excellent question!  We've choosen this connector primarily because of space constraints.  Also, pogo pins are fabulously expensive costing > $10.  Even though I think this shouldn't be a huge pain point we can still revise this further given that we'll be able to find a pogo pin that is small enough, easy to source and not so terribly expensive.

Boasts about open source, but the development model is a complete cathedral so far.

Open source does NOT mean open development. I would say the biggest issue I see with the bazaar is feature creep, which is usually completely avoided with closed development / open source model. This is a very workable development strategy and I have seen it work out very well in the past.

For example, just look at the ergodox development thread.

open source / closed development is a much better idea for a hardware model, where your time to make prototypes and iterations is on the order of days / weeks, compared with minutes / hours for compiling new iterations on a software project. If someone wants to add a new feature to a software project, they can do so without greatly impacting the release timeline. If you want to make even a slight change to a hardware project, each one sets it back weeks. There comes a point where you have to call enough "enough" and push to production. With all the "noise" of peaople requesting features int eh bazaar, the cathedral makes a lot of sense here.

Keep in mind the cathedral / bazaar analogy was originally applied to open software, and I would argue that it has little relevance to open hardware and hardware design / developments.

Just my thoughts of course.

Thank you so much for articulating this!  Also, the left and right bootloaders are already out in the open and the rest will follow according to the plan that is featured on our main page.

[IvanIvanovich]

I think in many ways of this as a spiritual successor to the Cherry MX5000. There is a lot of good here and as such it could well be a viable alternative to an MX5000.
To me, the biggest con is the not quite standard backspace, enter, and super keys. There will be a major annoyance for those that like to change keycaps. I do hope you strongly reconsider this decision... otherwise I hope you ship it with some high quality doubleshot or PBT dyesub so it's much less annoying. I don't really dig the pointy bits on the case either.

[dorkvader]

Excellent question!  We've choosen this connector primarily because of space constraints.  Also, pogo pins are fabulously expensive costing > $10. 

Oh my gosh, you're right. this is ridiculous:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=pogo+pins

@ivan
This keyboard uses what I think-of as an "offset" layout. Usually, the width is a whole number of keysizes, but some (like this) are "offset" and the width is some fraction larger.

You can see this with tab being larger than 1x and \| being 1x. Same with `~ and backspace.

There's probably an official term for this, but that's just my thoughts.

When I'm faced with a layout like this, and I want to change keycaps, I just get some cherry relegendables (or blanks, having a supply of blank larger-than-1x keys is useful) and put them on where necessary. I'm not picky about having gaps, so it works out for me.

I think the TG3 BL82 is "offset" as well, so there may be some compatability between them.

I do like how you liken it to a modern 5000. For me, it's somewhat superior: it's fully split, you can get a random cable to connect the halves (meaning you can just get one arbitrary length, if it's 6p4c, then a 6p6c cable (for rj45 ethernet may well work) making chair mounting easier, you can also program it, etc.

If you go for a super long cable, a pullup resistor may be necessary though.

[metalliqaz]

Seems like a gimmick to me. 

[IvanIvanovich]

On the left half it appears to have a standard 1.5 tab, 1.75 C row 'mouse' where caps lock traditionally is and a 2.25 left shift. The Deck BL82 has totally different sizes where the left mods are also .5 shorter than usual. It's only the right half here that uses .5 reduced width keys similar to old school Apple like the M0110. Sure it's possible to find 1.5 backspace, 1.75 enter and certainly a second 2.25 shift is little issue... but it would definitely be a lot more convenient if used 2 unit backspace, 2.25 enter and 2.75 shift with 1.25 super key and a slightly longer 2.75 space instead on the right half. Having standard easy to source keycaps is likely to be far more important than having both halves to be exactly the same width in the long run to most potential buyers. Additionally, if an ISO version is in the cards it is even goingto be more difficult as slim ISO enters are really not readily available. Asides from the couple of Cherry models that had it like the 130* and Alcatel MMK... and old terminal boards like the Wy85 and similar... perhaps GMK and SP still has those mold kicking about but I would doubt anywhere else will.

[mkawa]

i believe GMK should have that tooling if it was used on the wy85

[rowdy]

It might be the ultimate Hacking Keyboard, but would you be Happy using it?

[blackbox]

It might be the ultimate Hacking Keyboard, but would you be Happy using it?

You just couldn't resist. Well, we shall see when it arrives to the consumers.

[rowdy]

It might be the ultimate Hacking Keyboard, but would you be Happy using it?

You just couldn't resist. Well, we shall see when it arrives to the consumers.

You got the reference then

[blackbox]

It might be the ultimate Hacking Keyboard, but would you be Happy using it?

You just couldn't resist. Well, we shall see when it arrives to the consumers.

You got the reference then

Not too hard to find out when it contain two of the same words in the product name . General question: Any specific reason not to use rj45 than rj11? I think it would have been a benefit to have a cable that almost everyone has.

[davkol]

Boasts about open source, but the development model is a complete cathedral so far.

Open source does NOT mean open development. I would say the biggest issue I see with the bazaar is feature creep, which is usually completely avoided with closed development / open source model. This is a very workable development strategy and I have seen it work out very well in the past.

For example, just look at the ergodox development thread.

open source / closed development is a much better idea for a hardware model, where your time to make prototypes and iterations is on the order of days / weeks, compared with minutes / hours for compiling new iterations on a software project. If someone wants to add a new feature to a software project, they can do so without greatly impacting the release timeline. If you want to make even a slight change to a hardware project, each one sets it back weeks. There comes a point where you have to call enough "enough" and push to production. With all the "noise" of peaople requesting features int eh bazaar, the cathedral makes a lot of sense here.

Keep in mind the cathedral / bazaar analogy was originally applied to open software, and I would argue that it has little relevance to open hardware and hardware design / developments.

It's not like there aren't any meritocratic projects, there weren't more people participating in the ErgoDox thread, AcidFire hasn't been open to suggestions for about a year etc. That's quite a difference, if you compare it to a one-man-show with source available, but unusual layout and case, incompatible with existing parts/accessories.

The point is, there are plenty of projects with source available, because of marketing or necessity (i.e. based on another copyleft project), but isn't it the collaborative effort that makes the difference then?

[jacobolus]

Judging from your posting history, mondalaci, you’ve been working on this project for 2+ years. Are you willing to post at all about the design process, or the evolution of your design over time? (ideally with pictures?)

[Kayla]

The retractable crap on the top is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever owned one of those knows it takes a matter of weeks before the mechanism starts to break and flat cables are crap. :/

[dorkvader]

The retractable crap on the top is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever owned one of those knows it takes a matter of weeks before the mechanism starts to break and flat cables are crap. :/

good thing it's easily replaceable with a standard off the shelf part that is also extremely common.


Check out this render! I am always worrited about how well the two sides fit together, but that is really nice! I'm expecting this to be rather costly what with all the good design / engineering that's going into it.

i believe GMK should have that tooling if it was used on the wy85

comptek made the wyse keycaps, as far as I can tell, GMK was not involved at all.

--
Also (in response to ivan), I was wrong; after looking it up this morning, the TG3 BL82 is not an example of an "offset" keyboard.

But I'd like to hear more about this "standard" keycaps you're talking about. What standard?

As far as easy-to-source, you can get blanks from SP that'll work very easily.

[Kayla]

The retractable crap on the top is ridiculous. Anyone who has ever owned one of those knows it takes a matter of weeks before the mechanism starts to break and flat cables are crap. :/

good thing it's easily replaceable with a standard off the shelf part that is also extremely common.

Show Image

Check out this render! I am always worrited about how well the two sides fit together, but that is really nice! I'm expecting this to be rather costly what with all the good design / engineering that's going into it.

i believe GMK should have that tooling if it was used on the wy85

comptek made the wyse keycaps, as far as I can tell, GMK was not involved at all.

--
Also (in response to ivan), I was wrong; after looking it up this morning, the TG3 BL82 is not an example of an "offset" keyboard.

But I'd like to hear more about this "standard" keycaps you're talking about. What standard?

As far as easy-to-source, you can get blanks from SP that'll work very easily.

When I saw the video preview of it it looked like they stored data in the retractable thingy because they detached it to edit software. Maybe I was mistaken.

[davkol]

But I'd like to hear more about this "standard" keycaps you're talking about. What standard?

Hmmm, what about ISO/IEC 9995? This keyboard doesn't fit it for sure.

[brainT]

Just looked up the Matais Ergo Pro.  Getting one with no hesitation.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Care you share the opinions that made you decide "Nope"?

Tacky name.
Non-standard, but still asymmetrical staggered layout.
Ugly case and something tells me it's not going to be light either.
Boasts about open source, but the development model is a complete cathedral so far.
Price estimate on par with Axios/ErgoDox/ErgoPro/...

As a potential customer, I don't see any reason to get it over Matias Ergo Pro, which appears to be better looking, more ergonomic and well supported. Actually, except licensing, but then there are the other projects.

[mondalaci]

General question: Any specific reason not to use rj45 than rj11? I think it would have been a benefit to have a cable that almost everyone has.

6P4C was chosen because of its smaller size.  8P*C would have been a more common connector, indeed.  Tradeoffs, tradeoffs...

[vivalarevolución]

The function key location sucks because I will have to use both hands for basic function layer keys like using the arrow keys.  Just make it a little wider, guys, and put a function key to the right of the right shift.

[mondalaci]

Judging from your posting history, mondalaci, you’ve been working on this project for 2+ years. Are you willing to post at all about the design process, or the evolution of your design over time? (ideally with pictures?)

I came up with the concept around 08/2007, but hey, we're not *that* slow!    I had to work on other projects for a while but as time went by I couldn't get this one out of my head, assembled a small team and poured thousands of hours into this.  There's more than a hundred pages worth of development log that I've written and hundreds of photos that I've taken.  I'm wondering who would be crazy enough to look into all those...

Also, I'm very cautious about posting any pictures (or almost anything) here.  The admins have taken down my original post, then removed a further one.   Requested a dedicated vendor forum and haven't got a reply yet.  Would like to move to a place where I'm allowed to share stuff without being terrified of being kicked out.

[mondalaci]

When I saw the video preview of it it looked like they stored data in the retractable thingy because they detached it to edit software. Maybe I was mistaken.

This is not the case, it's just a simple cable without any such uber-features

[Findecanor]

i believe GMK should have that tooling if it was used on the wy85

Signature Plastics took over Comptec's tooling. Yes, it is still in the catalogue for their DCS profile. They don't have it for DSA, haven't checked SA but I doubt it.

[mondalaci]

Check out this render! I am always worrited about how well the two sides fit together

And so are we!  That's why we're not willing to outsource the tooling of the case mold.  Ndrew, my partner who is a mechanical engineer will directly oversee the mold making and manufacturing process here in Hungary.

[jdcarpe]

Also, I'm very cautious about posting any pictures (or almost anything) here.  The admins have taken down my original post, then removed a further one.   Requested a dedicated vendor forum and haven't got a reply yet.  Would like to move to a place where I'm allowed to share stuff without being terrified of being kicked out.

Well, you happened to come back to the forum during a time when the admins have placed a moratorium on new vendor forums. But I hope they may make an exception for an exceptional circumstance.

[jacobolus]

Why don’t you put some of your build log up on an external site and just link to it in this thread?

[mondalaci]

Also, I'm very cautious about posting any pictures (or almost anything) here.  The admins have taken down my original post, then removed a further one.   Requested a dedicated vendor forum and haven't got a reply yet.  Would like to move to a place where I'm allowed to share stuff without being terrified of being kicked out.

Well, you happened to come back to the forum during a time when the admins have placed a moratorium on new vendor forums. But I hope they may make an exception for an exceptional circumstance.

They've just answered and looks they're willing to open a new vendor forum.  Please hold on a bit

[mondalaci]

The function key location sucks because I will have to use both hands for basic function layer keys like using the arrow keys.

The mod keys being diagonally symmetrical you can trigger such keys with one hand.  This has been purposefully designed as such so that masturbation is possible even while using arrow keys with the other hand

[jdcarpe]

The function key location sucks because I will have to use both hands for basic function layer keys like using the arrow keys.

The mod keys being diagonally symmetrical you can trigger such keys with one hand.  This has been purposefully designed as such so that masturbation is possible even while using arrow keys with the other hand

I believe you just found your selling point.

[mondalaci]

Guys,

Given your feedback we're willing to change the product name. Everyone is welcome to come up with new names. We'd like to find a viable alternative that doesn't resemble any other board and sounds professionally.

Thank you very much for your input!

[iAmAhab]

Ultimate Fapping Keyboard?

[paicrai]

flapsacking ****mingler with keys on it

[Frenir]

The Masturboard.

[paicrai]

Milko




/keyboard money joke

[Kayla]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

[mondalaci]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

[Frenir]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

Modulink Board, perhaps

[Pacifist]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

Modulink Board, perhaps

modulink sounds really good

[mondalaci]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

Modulink Board, perhaps

modulink sounds really good

Wow, This is a serious sounding name!  I'm digging it, too.

May there be a name conflict with http://www.modulink.co.nz/ ?  Totally different product category, but still...

[Frenir]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

Modulink Board, perhaps

modulink sounds really good

Wow, This is a serious sounding name!  I'm digging it, too.

May there be a name conflict with http://www.modulink.co.nz/ ?  Totally different product category, but still...

Glad you like it, would be sad if there should a problem using the name

The name here is more relevant than the business that makes office dividers.

[Pacifist]

Name if after yourself?

Modula
Modulaci

A part of me likes this idea

Could use words talking about its separation;
Bisect, Bisector, Sector..

Maybe use words like "Link" or "Variable" describing its multi-functions.

This is actually a great starting point!  I've been thinking about "fusion" or something like that.

Wondering whether "keyboard" should be appended to the chosen name, like Sector Keyboard or Fusion Keyboard.  Makes the name less appealing.

Modulink Board, perhaps

modulink sounds really good

Wow, This is a serious sounding name!  I'm digging it, too.

May there be a name conflict with http://www.modulink.co.nz/ ?  Totally different product category, but still...

they make office stuff, and offices use keyboards. there may be a slight conflict

IANAL, but could different countries do copyright law differently?

[TacticalCoder]

What do you all think?

I think it's great to see regular "staggered" keyboards come with a narrower spacebar (and hence modifiers you can more easily reach with your thumbs). I bought an HHKB Pro JP / Japan only to get the narrower spacebar.

I'd fork $$$ for my HHKB to be able to "split in two" like that 

[Kayla]

I like Sector and Modulink They both sound great and original too. Mucch better than the original title. ^^

[dorkvader]

But I'd like to hear more about this "standard" keycaps you're talking about. What standard?

Hmmm, what about ISO/IEC 9995? This keyboard doesn't fit it for sure.

I was only able to "find" (and totally not pirate) the ANSI spec, so I'm not 100% sure on ISO, but the ANSI spec doesn't give that much standardixation in teh way of key layouts.

So I mean: what keyboard IS standard? I think they were vague about parts of the key widths and things to allow for some differences between manufacturers and things.

If you mean that the "filco" layout is "standard" as is commonly said here (for some reason ?) then I don't think that's true, or a reason to take points off the 'board.

May there be a name conflict with http://www.modulink.co.nz/ ?  Totally different product category, but still...

they make office stuff, and offices use keyboards. there may be a slight conflict

IANAL, but could different countries do copyright law differently?

IANAL either, but I'm pretty sure they do.

The "good" news is that if that's the case, you can just not sell it in NZ. I think that here in the US, it's okay if you have similar names, provided you are in completely different markets / sectors.

[lowpoly]

First, IANAL. 

This is not about copyright, it's about trademarks.

Whenever you're going to name something and/or register a domain, even for private use, it's always good to do a trademark search first. Here are some links:

https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic
https://www.tmdn.org/tmview/welcome
http://www.wipo.int/romarin
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4802:adm1p2.1.1

At least here in Germany, if you register a trademark, you also have to apply for certain classes. If the name is already registered but in a different class it should not be a problem (YMMV, IANAL).

You can search for classes here:
http://dpma.de/service/klassifikationen/nizzaklassifikation/suche/suchen.html (site in german).

Good luck with your campaign, mondalaci. 

Edit: fixed name

[davkol]

But I'd like to hear more about this "standard" keycaps you're talking about. What standard?

Hmmm, what about ISO/IEC 9995? This keyboard doesn't fit it for sure.

I was only able to "find" (and totally not pirate) the ANSI spec, so I'm not 100% sure on ISO, but the ANSI spec doesn't give that much standardixation in teh way of key layouts.

So I mean: what keyboard IS standard? I think they were vague about parts of the key widths and things to allow for some differences between manufacturers and things.

I read the standard in a library, but I think it's publicly available (Czech national standards aren't though T_T). Anyway, Wikipedia has a summary.

Cherry G80-3000 is compliant for sure. It's mostly about the number&placement of modifiers in this context.

CST104-like layout sounds like an industrial standard for keycap sets. Not a standard de iure, but a norm nevertheless.

[mondalaci]

First, IANAL. 

This is not about copyright, it's about trademarks.

Whenever you're going to name something and/or register a domain, even for private use, it's always good to do a trademark search first. Here are some links:

https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#basic
https://www.tmdn.org/tmview/welcome
http://www.wipo.int/romarin
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=4802:adm1p2.1.1

At least here in Germany, if you register a trademark, you also have to apply for certain classes. If the name is already registered but in a different class it should not be a problem (YMMV, IANAL).

You can search for classes here:
http://dpma.de/service/klassifikationen/nizzaklassifikation/suche/suchen.html (site in german).

Good luck with your campaign, mondalaci. 

Edit: fixed name

Thanks a ton for these links, lowpoly, will be looking into them!

I also wish you great success with the Miniguru!

[mondalaci]

In the meantime I've asked the Deskthority folks, too, and they came up with the Gemini 1 name.

Ndrew, my partner in crime was thinking about using Modlink (because of the Mod keys).

Whaddya think?

[jdcarpe]

Super Split-o-Matic 2014


Nah, I really like Modlink

[ckar]

The 6 digit is on the left side instead of the right side. It should be on the right side so the right index finger will press it.

[jacobolus]

How come the 6 digit is on the left side instead of the right side? It should be on the right side so the right index finger will press it.

The 6 key on a standard keyboard is closer to the F key than to the J key. My guess is that about 50% of people use their left hand for it.
(But really, the whole number row is pretty badly arranged on a standard keyboard; using a column stagger makes the whole number row much easier to reach.)

[dorkvader]

I read the standard in a library, but I think it's publicly available (Czech national standards aren't though T_T). Anyway, Wikipedia has a summary.

Cherry G80-3000 is compliant for sure. It's mostly about the number&placement of modifiers in this context.

CST104-like layout sounds like an industrial standard for keycap sets. Not a standard de iure, but a norm nevertheless.

It's a pretty wide standard for sure, even teh IBM AT keyboard meets it. Sadlty this keyboard does not due to the split spacebar, and in fact most split spacebar keyboard do not meet ISO/IEC 9995-2 (spacebar has to cover A03 or A07 or C to M on a QWERTY keyboard.)
Other than that I think ISO might require physical function keys.

But barring those two stipulations, (which can likely be solved by reporgramming and arranging the function keys elsewhere, making both thumb keys spacebar, etc.) it appears to conform to ISO's very wide spec. Even if not, the layout itself can be within the standard, even if the key widths are less-common.


The G80-3000 you mentioned is absolutely not ISO compliant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#ISO.2FIEC_9995-4


I would also like to note that like the ANSI standard, the ISO standards are not available for free. I do not have a technical library available, and it's 88 swiss francs (CHF) or about $100 for each "part" of the standard.

[davkol]

My bad, I meant ISO/IEC 9995-2 at the time. Although, I don't think all sections of the keyboard have to be present (i.e. a tenkeyless board can adhere to the standard).

[Frenir]

In the meantime I've asked the Deskthority folks, too, and they came up with the Gemini 1 name.

Ndrew, my partner in crime was thinking about using Modlink (because of the Mod keys).

Whaddya think?

Modlink sounds great!


(Also almost the name created on geekhack, Huzzah!)

[blackbox]

In the meantime I've asked the Deskthority folks, too, and they came up with the Gemini 1 name.

Ndrew, my partner in crime was thinking about using Modlink (because of the Mod keys).

Whaddya think?

Modlink sounds great!
(Also almost the name created on geekhack, Huzzah!)

Yup, modlink sounds great!

but:

"PLEASANTON, CA – (March 1, 2013) – PACSGEAR, the leading provider of imaging connectivity for electronic health records, today announced ModLink™, a software solution that transfers structured report measurements directly into PowerScribe 360 | Reporting from Nuance."

http://www.pacsgear.com/media-room/news/138-pacsgear-introduces-modlink-at-himss-2013.html

and

http://modlink.net/

So that would be a problem because of the trademark (first link).

[rowdy]

"modlink" makes me think of when a moderator here moves a thread into a different sub-forum, and links from where the thread originally was

[dorkvader]

My bad, I meant ISO/IEC 9995-2 at the time. Although, I don't think all sections of the keyboard have to be present (i.e. a tenkeyless board can adhere to the standard).

the standard for tenkey seems to state that the tenkey - if present- must adhere to the standard. Most modern tenkeys have a numlock key and no equals sign, and don't adhere.

I wonder if you can capitalize on the split aspect with clever kerning, like older SP "geek ha ck" keys with the name.

[bdtbinh]

Look kinda cool, but some part should be me space-saving 

[OnTheBrink]

Not bad but that case design has to go.

A Topre option with MX sliders would be a big plus as well.

[mondalaci]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

[dorkvader]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

I looked it up

Breitling made that for less than a year... in 2009.

So they havent' been interested in in for 15 years.

That said, as long as you aren't making a watch or luxury item called "twin sixty", then I don't think there'll be trouble. You should still talk to a lawyer about it.

Of all the names provided thus far, "split sixty" is my favourite.

or just go for broke with "ultimate twin gemini hacking twin split sixty"

[spiceBar]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

[blackbox]

Split sixty sounds great! As said its pretty self explanatory.

[OnTheBrink]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

Even though I said the same thing, I have to +1 this again. I think the idea is awesome but that case design and display has to go.

A lot of people here buy keyboards because of their design. It is usually equal to the appeal functionality has. What enticed me to even become a keyboard enthusiast is how good they looked.

[mondalaci]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

Even though I said the same thing, I have to +1 this again. I think the idea is awesome but that case design and display has to go.

A lot of people here buy keyboards because of their design. It is usually equal to the appeal functionality has. What enticed me to even become a keyboard enthusiast is how good they looked.

What you are asking for is a monumental redesign that's pretty much infeasible for the first version.  Also, I think split keyboards are a lot less trivial than non-split keyboards in this respect because of the bridge cable and because of the extra space is that's needed for the connectors (in our case 6P4C connectors).  Should you have any concrete ideas, we're open to it but probably not for the first version.

[spiceBar]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

Even though I said the same thing, I have to +1 this again. I think the idea is awesome but that case design and display has to go.

A lot of people here buy keyboards because of their design. It is usually equal to the appeal functionality has. What enticed me to even become a keyboard enthusiast is how good they looked.

What you are asking for is a monumental redesign that's pretty much infeasible for the first version.  Also, I think split keyboards are a lot less trivial than non-split keyboards in this respect because of the bridge cable and because of the extra space is that's needed for the connectors (in our case 6P4C connectors).  Should you have any concrete ideas, we're open to it but probably not for the first version.

No problem. I'll wait for the second version then. Or the third one.

[hoggy]

I'd say leave the led display - it would be useful to know what layer the board is currently set to.

[OnTheBrink]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

Even though I said the same thing, I have to +1 this again. I think the idea is awesome but that case design and display has to go.

A lot of people here buy keyboards because of their design. It is usually equal to the appeal functionality has. What enticed me to even become a keyboard enthusiast is how good they looked.

What you are asking for is a monumental redesign that's pretty much infeasible for the first version.  Also, I think split keyboards are a lot less trivial than non-split keyboards in this respect because of the bridge cable and because of the extra space is that's needed for the connectors (in our case 6P4C connectors).  Should you have any concrete ideas, we're open to it but probably not for the first version.

Gocha. I was just giving some feedback as I thought that was the purpose of the thread. I don't mean to sound like I'm dumping on your project. I truly wish you the best of luck.

As for concrete ideas, I'd say go with something a bit more rectangle and proportioned. It doesn't need to look exactly like every other 60% out there, but the curved area for the LED display looks like it leaves a lot of wasted space for a space saving split keyboard design. Also, the curved screen makes the font look crooked.

I would also vote to have the screen on the bottom portion but on the lip facing the user. Sort of where the code is on an FC660C(M)

I'm also not crazy about the "space mod" writing.

[heedpantsnow]

I like it.  I don't really care what it's named.  Like others have mentioned, the durability of the cable worries me as I too have had countless of those things die.

[microsoft windows]

I wonder how well a keyboard like that would do in a wireless configuation?

[mondalaci]

Ndrew has been brainstoring all day and here are some possible alternatives:

His first idea was Twin Sixty given that it's a 60% keyboard of two (twin) halves.  Turns out there's a ridiculously expensive watch on the market with that name. Not sure whether it's trademarked but there's a good chance it is.

My next idea was Twin Thirty given that 2*30% = 60%. According to Ndrew's opinion this doesn't sound that good and the formula is not that important. For example there's an engine called Twin 600 that features 2x300cm3 cylinders which is illogical if you think about it.

His next idea was Split Sixty with which I'm pretty much in love at this point. It describes this keyboard fairly well regarding the size and ergonomics and also sounds cool.

But prove us wrong! What is your opinion?

"Split sixty" is great.

Please reconsider the shape of the case. When the two halves are put together, this should be a rectangle. The pointy ears are a big turn off.

Please get rid of that LED display.

Even though I said the same thing, I have to +1 this again. I think the idea is awesome but that case design and display has to go.

A lot of people here buy keyboards because of their design. It is usually equal to the appeal functionality has. What enticed me to even become a keyboard enthusiast is how good they looked.

What you are asking for is a monumental redesign that's pretty much infeasible for the first version.  Also, I think split keyboards are a lot less trivial than non-split keyboards in this respect because of the bridge cable and because of the extra space is that's needed for the connectors (in our case 6P4C connectors).  Should you have any concrete ideas, we're open to it but probably not for the first version.

Gocha. I was just giving some feedback as I thought that was the purpose of the thread. I don't mean to sound like I'm dumping on your project. I truly wish you the best of luck.

I didn't misunderstood your intention.  I really appreciate your feedback and thanks for the best wishes!

As for concrete ideas, I'd say go with something a bit more rectangle and proportioned. It doesn't need to look exactly like every other 60% out there, but the curved area for the LED display looks like it leaves a lot of wasted space for a space saving split keyboard design. Also, the curved screen makes the font look crooked.

Please note that the upper part cannot be as thin as other non-split boards because a 6P4C connector occupies a fair amount of space.  The shape can change in future version to be more rectangular but it'll be a little bulky around the top compared to non-split keyboards.  The current design has been chosen because it's at least not bulky all the way, only where necessary.  It might have not been the best compromise, though.  I believe the current one is the most minimalistic design possible given the constraints.

I would also vote to have the screen on the bottom portion but on the lip facing the user. Sort of where the code is on an FC660C(M)

I think there's hardly enough space on the bottom portion for a reasonably sized display.

I'm also not crazy about the "space mod" writing.

Do you mean the writing on the case?  Users should be able to see the function of the bottommost keys.  Do you have alternative suggestions?

[mondalaci]

I like it.  I don't really care what it's named.  Like others have mentioned, the durability of the cable worries me as I too have had countless of those things die.

How about providing not only the original retractable cable but a coil cable, too, guys?  It'd almost look like a telephone coil cable but shorter.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I never quite understood modular connectors. What advantage does 6P4C have over, say, 4P4C? What's the advantage of having two unused contact positions in a situation such as this?

[mondalaci]

I never quite understood modular connectors. What advantage does 6P4C have over, say, 4P4C? What's the advantage of having two unused contact positions in a situation such as this?

Good question, didn't give it a lot of thought so far...  Wider availability of various cables is the only significant advantage that I can think of.  6P4C may also be slightly more robust because of its larger size.

[iMav]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

I didn't know it was weird until a few days ago lol.

It's not weird, it is normal.  Anyone who says otherwise can take it up with me. 

[Oobly]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

I didn't know it was weird until a few days ago lol.

It's not weird, it is normal.  Anyone who says otherwise can take it up with me. 

Doing research for my portable board layout I discovered that a significant number of people use left thumb for space. Having them at least switchable is vital for a commercial product.

[aklt]

Just found out about this keyboard.  A lot of good ideas I think...  Maybe too many
for a first keyboard?  Curious to see the reviews when it comes out!

[ika]

Doing research for my portable board layout I discovered that a significant number of people use left thumb for space. Having them at least switchable is vital for a commercial product.

I once made a thread poll at Anandtech and I think it came out close to 50/50 for "only using left shift" vs right shift, and "only using left thumb" vs right thumb for space. Personally I would be unable to type on a keyboard without a left shift and left thumb space. I don't use my right hand for any modifiers, unless I'm messaging and go for ?->return. That's the only time I ever use my right shift.

[bryan11]

The idea is good.  Personally, I'd prefer the ctrl and super keys to be swapped. 

[aklt]

I am hoping that all keyboard layouts will be programmable, not just the custom key layouts.  It
would seem like an obvious thing to allow this kind of customization.

[crazystu]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

I didn't know it was weird until a few days ago lol.

It's not weird, it is normal.  Anyone who says otherwise can take it up with me. 

I think my left thumb space bar typing style came from playing a lot of Counter-Strike/FPS games, where you hit space with your left hand to jump.

[jaffers]

I don't know much about hacking, but if its anything like coding you are going to spend more time trying to find that god damn bug than actually typing

[ctm]

I really like the idea of a split 60% keyboard so that it can be positioned more ergonomically.

[jbondeson]

Their campaign just went live

Pity about the name...

[ika]

Sounds like they're using pad-printed keycaps. That's too bad. I was hoping it would land closer to $150 but this seems to be engineered quite nicely.

[richfiles]

Just out of curiosity: why did you choose those bendable leafs instead of (for example) pogopins that seem to be more prevalent?

Excellent question!  We've choosen this connector primarily because of space constraints.  Also, pogo pins are fabulously expensive costing > $10.  Even though I think this shouldn't be a huge pain point we can still revise this further given that we'll be able to find a pogo pin that is small enough, easy to source and not so terribly expensive.

I am doing a custom personal keyboard and wanted to have a magnetically detachable number pad. I was going to use pogo pins (being a one-off, I don't care what it costs). What I'm more uninterested in, are those steel magnetic interlock thingies. Is that an off the shelf component, and if so, what are they called and where can I find them? Are they fixed, or do they magnetically extend deeper when engaged?

Without those steel pegs, I'd basically expect my number pad to just connect purely by magnetic alignment. hit would have no secure strength or connection if I were to pick up or angle the keyboard to move or adjust it.

Also, I planned on using pogos similar to this one:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0900-8-15-20-76-14-11-0/ED1124-ND/3737527
These are only $0.81 in single quantities (presuming 5 connectors, $4.05 in single quantities). That being said, the parts have quantity breaks, so depending on how many of these keyboards get made, you could cut that down to $0.30 per pogo/$1.54 per keyboard for 100 keyboards made, or $0.21776 per pogo/$1.09 per keyboard for 500 keyboards made. That's just using that one particular part as an example.

This one costs a little more, but is still sub $1 pricing in single quantities, and offers a through hole mount. You'd need a small 90° PC board to mount them too, but if through hole solves complexities in basic pogo pun alignment during manufacture, then that's an option to consider as well. Maybe SMD pick and place can handle those pogos? I dunno. I probably will personally spend a little extra on a through hole variety, just to I can solder these to a small PC board that will maintain my alignment. All I need to do then, for my keyboard, is just snag a small PC board with the correctly spaced gold plated pads to act as contacts to the pogos.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0906-1-15-20-75-14-11-0/ED8181-ND/1147049

[mondalaci]

gross

I spacebar with my left hand, so this would be like torture.

Yay another leftie-spacie. I thought I was alone!

I didn't know it was weird until a few days ago lol.

It's not weird, it is normal.  Anyone who says otherwise can take it up with me. 

Doing research for my portable board layout I discovered that a significant number of people use left thumb for space. Having them at least switchable is vital for a commercial product.

The UHK being fully programmable / configurable, this shouldn't be a problem.

[mondalaci]

The idea is good.  Personally, I'd prefer the ctrl and super keys to be swapped. 

That's exactly my preference, too!

[mondalaci]

I am hoping that all keyboard layouts will be programmable, not just the custom key layouts.  It
would seem like an obvious thing to allow this kind of customization.

The UHK is full programmable / configurable.

[mondalaci]

Sounds like they're using pad-printed keycaps. That's too bad. I was hoping it would land closer to $150 but this seems to be engineered quite nicely.

According to our plans we'll be using laser-engraved keycaps.

[ideus]

Looks like an interesting idea but I HATE keyboards that use unusual key sizings. They've butchered the entire right hand side just for the sake of symmetry, instant turn off for me.

It appears that designers took some decisions with no input from keyboard aficionados, it may mean that the design is oriented more to a wider audience, which is good; but some at GH and other similar boards may not jump into it.

[alienman82]

removed.

[davkol]

Looks like an interesting idea but I HATE keyboards that use unusual key sizings. They've butchered the entire right hand side just for the sake of symmetry, instant turn off for me.

It appears that designers took some decisions with no input from keyboard aficionados, it may mean that the design is oriented more to a wider audience, which is good; but some at GH and other similar boards may not jump into it.

They "asked" for feedback and then ignored it.

For example, it still has the same atrocious name.

[mondalaci]

Just out of curiosity: why did you choose those bendable leafs instead of (for example) pogopins that seem to be more prevalent?

Excellent question!  We've choosen this connector primarily because of space constraints.  Also, pogo pins are fabulously expensive costing > $10.  Even though I think this shouldn't be a huge pain point we can still revise this further given that we'll be able to find a pogo pin that is small enough, easy to source and not so terribly expensive.

I am doing a custom personal keyboard and wanted to have a magnetically detachable number pad. I was going to use pogo pins (being a one-off, I don't care what it costs). What I'm more uninterested in, are those steel magnetic interlock thingies. Is that an off the shelf component, and if so, what are they called and where can I find them? Are they fixed, or do they magnetically extend deeper when engaged?

Without those steel pegs, I'd basically expect my number pad to just connect purely by magnetic alignment. hit would have no secure strength or connection if I were to pick up or angle the keyboard to move or adjust it.

Also, I planned on using pogos similar to this one:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0900-8-15-20-76-14-11-0/ED1124-ND/3737527
These are only $0.81 in single quantities (presuming 5 connectors, $4.05 in single quantities). That being said, the parts have quantity breaks, so depending on how many of these keyboards get made, you could cut that down to $0.30 per pogo/$1.54 per keyboard for 100 keyboards made, or $0.21776 per pogo/$1.09 per keyboard for 500 keyboards made. That's just using that one particular part as an example.

This one costs a little more, but is still sub $1 pricing in single quantities, and offers a through hole mount. You'd need a small 90° PC board to mount them too, but if through hole solves complexities in basic pogo pun alignment during manufacture, then that's an option to consider as well. Maybe SMD pick and place can handle those pogos? I dunno. I probably will personally spend a little extra on a through hole variety, just to I can solder these to a small PC board that will maintain my alignment. All I need to do then, for my keyboard, is just snag a small PC board with the correctly spaced gold plated pads to act as contacts to the pogos.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0906-1-15-20-75-14-11-0/ED8181-ND/1147049

We use off-the-shelf magnets but the steel parts that face the magnets are custom made. Our case has been designed so that these parts can fit into it. You should be able to investigate our design by checking out or page and our blog.

In the meantime, we've also decided to use pogo pins that are very similar to the SMD pogo pins that you showed. We'll be using a vertical PCB with holes, put the pogo pins into the holes, solder them, and then solder the vertical PCB to our main PCB in a perpendicular fashion.

[richfiles]

We use off-the-shelf magnets but the steel parts that face the magnets are custom made. Our case has been designed so that these parts can fit into it. You should be able to investigate our design by checking out or page and our blog.

In the meantime, we've also decided to use pogo pins that are very similar to the SMD pogo pins that you showed. We'll be using a vertical PCB with holes, put the pogo pins into the holes, solder them, and then solder the vertical PCB to our main PCB in a perpendicular fashion.

Nice! Pogos are well worth it. I know I'm late to the game on this thread, but it always pays to shop around when finalizing a design and generating a bill of materials. Regardless of if it's for rev 1 or rev 10. 

One thing I did notice while visiting your blog, is your strong support for Right to Repair. VERY awesome! I am curious though... Does that mean you will make replacement parts available for purchase to individuals? I can imagine that the steel interlocks are a component that is vulnerable to damage (dropped, accidentally flexed, dinged, etc), considering that it is external. If that were the case, and they were made available to simply purchase as parts, I'd be potentially interested in simply buying a set of the steel interlocks to use for my custom number pad. I can't argue with a good design! 

[mondalaci]

We use off-the-shelf magnets but the steel parts that face the magnets are custom made. Our case has been designed so that these parts can fit into it. You should be able to investigate our design by checking out or page and our blog.

In the meantime, we've also decided to use pogo pins that are very similar to the SMD pogo pins that you showed. We'll be using a vertical PCB with holes, put the pogo pins into the holes, solder them, and then solder the vertical PCB to our main PCB in a perpendicular fashion.

Nice! Pogos are well worth it. I know I'm late to the game on this thread, but it always pays to shop around when finalizing a design and generating a bill of materials. Regardless of if it's for rev 1 or rev 10. 

One thing I did notice while visiting your blog, is your strong support for Right to Repair. VERY awesome! I am curious though... Does that mean you will make replacement parts available for purchase to individuals? I can imagine that the steel interlocks are a component that is vulnerable to damage (dropped, accidentally flexed, dinged, etc), considering that it is external. If that were the case, and they were made available to simply purchase as parts, I'd be potentially interested in simply buying a set of the steel interlocks to use for my custom number pad. I can't argue with a good design! 

Glad you're also considering repair friendliness important! The steel guides are probably not the best example because they're super strong and not prone to wear but we definitely plan to provide some parts. I can think of the plastic parts, the assembled PCBs, and who knows what else. The steel guides are custom-made and I'd love to offer a set, just not in this early phase because prototyping stuff is incredibly time-consuming and expensive.

[richfiles]

Glad you're also considering repair friendliness important! The steel guides are probably not the best example because they're super strong and not prone to wear but we definitely plan to provide some parts. I can think of the plastic parts, the assembled PCBs, and who knows what else. The steel guides are custom-made and I'd love to offer a set, just not in this early phase because prototyping stuff is incredibly time-consuming and expensive.

Yeah... I was very disappointed in my state when they did NOT pass a Right To Repair law this past summer. Wrote in to the local government, signed the petitions, and everything.

My keyboard won't be completely done till early next yearn, I guess, since the keycaps I bought will take a while to get molded and shipped. Ship date is next February.
If you ever need "beta testers" to test the durability of those steel puppies, I'd be sure to offer my services! LOL! )

I suppose I could try to make some. I have access to a machine shop, but I'm not sure if we could do the hardening. I wonder if it's possible to spring load the pegs, so the magnet in one side pulls the peg out of the other to engage, but then retracts when not engaged with the magnet???

[mondalaci]

Glad you're also considering repair friendliness important! The steel guides are probably not the best example because they're super strong and not prone to wear but we definitely plan to provide some parts. I can think of the plastic parts, the assembled PCBs, and who knows what else. The steel guides are custom-made and I'd love to offer a set, just not in this early phase because prototyping stuff is incredibly time-consuming and expensive.

Yeah... I was very disappointed in my state when they did NOT pass a Right To Repair law this past summer. Wrote in to the local government, signed the petitions, and everything.

My keyboard won't be completely done till early next yearn, I guess, since the keycaps I bought will take a while to get molded and shipped. Ship date is next February.
If you ever need "beta testers" to test the durability of those steel puppies, I'd be sure to offer my services! LOL! )

I suppose I could try to make some. I have access to a machine shop, but I'm not sure if we could do the hardening. I wonder if it's possible to spring load the pegs, so the magnet in one side pulls the peg out of the other to engage, but then retracts when not engaged with the magnet???

You're welcome to fill out our tester submission form at https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/wanna-test

I'm afraid these guides are not so easy to make but Andras is certainly more knowledgable in this respect than I am. I rather wouldn't use spring loaded pegs as it's just another thing that can break on the long term.

[1swt2gs]

This looks pretty damn awesome

[JBert]

I don't know why but the "early bird - $ 50 off" stock still hasn't run out. If anybody wants one slightly cheaper, you still have the option.

Also, trackpoint / trackball / touchpad modules are now available for preorder.

[rpilgrim]

  It's amazing! Now they also have add-on modules: trackpoint, trackball, trackpad and additional key cluster!

[Homenubbie]

How safe is CrowdSupply? 

[Cindori]

Vortex is working on something similar

https://www.facebook.com/Vortexgear/photos/pcb.911792815555096/911792675555110/?type=3&theater

[ideus]

Vortex knows the importance of using standard keys, these guys don't.

[JBert]

I wouldn't compare a Vortex against this keyboard though, while Vortex make stuff at decent prices the build quality or feature set is not fenomenal.

[JBert]

How safe is CrowdSupply?

In what ways? Do you think Massdrop or Kickstarter are safe? (real question)

[ideus]

I wouldn't compare a Vortex against this keyboard though, while Vortex make stuff at decent prices the build quality or feature set is not fenomenal.

Vortex's quality is not the point, how these guys handle the feedback of mechanical keyboard users is it. Besides, Vortex is an established manufacturer, with a record of products consumers are already familiar with; in the other hand, this new offer has not been tested; one thing is having a nice design and some prototype units and other different one is to handle a manufacturing supply chain, add to that they may outsource the manufacturing of units in China and you may end with a very steep learning curve.

[JBert]

Ok, you're right that going with an ad-hominem is beside the point.

To make a more substantial argument: I feel that having a split reprogrammable and possibly "hackable" keyboard is a bigger feature than having a "standard" layout with common keycaps. I tend to switch between a model F XT and a classic ISO layout without too much trouble even with it's different right side - it can be done.

It would have been better if actual people from the mech community could have had their hands on a prototype. However, that's still no guarantee that it'll be a good fit: sixty and webwit reviewed the Poker X KBC prototypes (Poker 1) and complained about a few silly things (e.g. Esc was Fn + ` with no reliable way to switch it permanently), yet when I bought one from the first batch the problem was still there. It's only in the community-run groupbuys like the GH60 or Ergodox that designs can be properly iterated, and even then things get to be delayed to some future next version. Like the UHK's designer said: it is about compromises, even though you might not like some of them.

In this case I've given them my money though, even if that means I'll have to wait on someone asking Signature Plastics for custom molds if I want to change its caps.

[ideus]

Molds are very expensive tools whose cost can only be justify by large production quantities; therefore, it seems your "argument" is empty; besides, fully programmable mechanical sixties are already available.


Of course, it is your money, it is your call, you are free to put it wherever you want.

[mondalaci]

Molds are very expensive tools whose cost can only be justify by large production quantities; therefore, it seems your "argument" is empty; besides, fully programmable mechanical sixties are already available.

fully programmable, truly split mechanical sixties that can be extended with add-on modules?

[ideus]

Being part of a new venture is a great thing in itself, kudos for those involved in this project, they deserve their product to success.


Product wise, it is not clear what the target market of the UHK is, as it includes some features that may attract keyboard aficionados, but it also appears to have some others that don't. The reason for that may be to target a broader market that includes PC users that may be interested in give mechanical keyboards a try for the first time with the UHK. Even the name of the product is a clear try to profiting on the well know HHKB, while the product has very few in common with it, unfortunately.


Let the time to say if the chosen compromises lead its sales in the proper way.


Godspeed!

[mondalaci]

Even the name of the product is a clear try to profiting on the well know HHKB

To you it may seem that way, even though your assumption has nothing to do with the truth. It doesn't take a genious to come up with the name and the logo of the UHK without ever hearing about the HHKB. Not only I haven't ever heard about the HHKB but neither about mechanical keyboards back in the days. But you're welcome to believe whatever you want and none of us can prove anything anyways. Moot point.

[davkol]

Even the name of the product is a clear try to profiting on the well know HHKB

To you it may seem that way, even though your assumption has nothing to do with the truth. It doesn't take a genious to come up with the name and the logo of the UHK without ever hearing about the HHKB. Not only I haven't ever heard about the HHKB but neither about mechanical keyboards back in the days. But you're welcome to believe whatever you want and none of us can prove anything anyways. Moot point.

Any 1337 12-year-old can come up with such a cheesy name.

It's even funnier, considering that I already wrote this at the start of the long thread at DT, then you returned only an ad-hominem… to spend the rest of the thread looking for new name suggestions… to ignore them.

Thank you though, the UHK marketing is repeatedly giving me a good laugh.

[ideus]

Even the name of the product is a clear try to profiting on the well know HHKB

To you it may seem that way, even though your assumption has nothing to do with the truth. It doesn't take a genious to come up with the name and the logo of the UHK without ever hearing about the HHKB. Not only I haven't ever heard about the HHKB but neither about mechanical keyboards back in the days. But you're welcome to believe whatever you want and none of us can prove anything anyways. Moot point.

Again, I hope your product does well, really. There is nothing personal here, at the contrary. Now what you stated came as a surprise, that you did not get some market information while preparing your business plan, ignoring what it is in the market is counter-intuitive for a new venture business due diligence.

[JBert]

Just as an update: it has exceeded its initial target funding goal of $200 000.

If you want to look at the firmware or on-the-fly programming tool you can check https://github.com/UltimateHackingKeyboard.

[rpilgrim]

Just 4 hours left! Please help UHK to get to the 2nd stretch goal! https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com

[hotrattz]

Are all the keys typical sizes, like if i wanted to replace them at some point? those mod and space keys look slightly strange and custom.  But i know nothing

[hotrattz]

Are all the keys typical sizes, like if i wanted to replace them at some point? those mod and space keys look slightly strange and custom.  But i know nothing

"I want to swap the keycaps. Which of your keycaps are non-standard?

Non-standard keycaps are Space, Mod, Right Control, and Backspace. All the others are standard.
"

I just answered my own question thanks me!

[davkol]

Are all the keys typical sizes, like if i wanted to replace them at some point? those mod and space keys look slightly strange and custom.  But i know nothing

"I want to swap the keycaps. Which of your keycaps are non-standard?

Non-standard keycaps are Space, Mod, Right Control, and Backspace. All the others are standard.
"

I just answered my own question thanks me!

…and it's also incorrect (not sure, if they're putting it there deliberately, or out of ignorance). right Shift, Enter and backslash are shorter than usual as well.

[ergo_typing]

right Shift, Enter and backslash are shorter than usual as well.

Maybe they meant those keys were a standard keycap size, but not necessarily the standard shape for that particular cap. For example, the backslash looks to be the size of a regular alphanumeric keycap but not the normal size for that cap on say a Poker.

It would be helpful to get an answer from the creators on this

[JBert]

I also started to wonder if their plate has switch opening cutouts. If they need to fabricate a broach to make the holes they might as well make one that can cut a more special shape.

[davkol]

right Shift, Enter and backslash are shorter than usual as well.

Maybe they meant those keys were a standard keycap size, but not necessarily the standard shape for that particular cap. For example, the backslash looks to be the size of a regular alphanumeric keycap but not the normal size for that cap on say a Poker.

The keyboard is apparently 14.5x keys wide, instead of usual 15x. This means

• Backspace is 1.5x instead of 2x,
• backslash is 1x instead of 1.5x,
• Enter is 1.75x instead of 2.25x,
• right Shift is 2.25x instead of 2.75x,
• the rightmost bottom-row key is 2x,
• Mod and Space look like 2x each, but probably make up 3.75x total, unless there's some magic involved… or I'm just too sleep deprived

If you try to put a "standard" ANSI keycap set on it, you'll have to put

• backslash in place of Backspace,
• Enter in place of right Shift,
• Backspace in place of the rightmost bottom-row key,

and get another

• 1x key for backslash,
• 1.75x key with a centered stem for Enter,
• and some extra (2x or weird) caps for Mod and Space.

Obviously, profiles (keytop heights/angles) won't be right, unless you use something non-sculpted, such as DSA.

[jacobolus]

The keyboard is apparently 14.5x keys wide, instead of usual 15x. This means [...]

Seems reasonable. The standard keycap sizes in the rightmost column were picked by IBM on their AT keyboards and 122-key terminal boards, I think primarily so that ISO-style enter, various types of 1u backspace, and JIS right shift would have enough space, and possibly also to better accommodate lots of space around the F keys.

IBM needed to accommodate multiple silly layouts on 80s computers, but that shouldn’t really be relevant today. On a Model M style ANSI-layout keyboard, the rightmost column of keys are now all stupidly long. 2.75u long shift in particular is a monstrosity.

[ideus]

The keyboard is apparently 14.5x keys wide, instead of usual 15x. This means [...]

Seems reasonable. The standard keycap sizes in the rightmost column were picked by IBM on their AT keyboards and 122-key terminal boards, I think primarily so that ISO-style enter, various types of 1u backspace, and JIS right shift would have enough space, and possibly also to better accommodate lots of space around the F keys.

IBM needed to accommodate multiple silly layouts on 80s computers, but that shouldn’t really be relevant today. On a Model M style ANSI-layout keyboard, the rightmost column of keys are now all stupidly long. 2.75u long shift in particular is a monstrosity.

Does that justify this board to be stupidly incompatible with available key-set? Or the entire ANSI standard should be changed around due to this?

[jacobolus]

Almost nobody cares about replacing their keycaps, even among Geekhackers (of course, the ones who do care are disproportionately vocal and places like this are echo chambers). It’s not worth worrying about excessively for a keyboard vendor building something new.

Staying 100% compatible with Cherry MX keyboards from the late 80s inspired by IBM keyboard layouts from the early 80s is fine, but it should be approximately last on anyone’s list of design criteria.

If you are one of the people who considers aftermarket keycaps important, don’t buy this thing. (Personally I think that’s the least of the reasons not to buy this thing, but I’m glad they’re experimenting.)

Beyond that, there’s a chicken–egg problem. If more vendors tried to focus on building interesting designs instead of making another identical clone of something you could get 30 years ago, we’d see more variety of aftermarket keycaps.

[ideus]

The hundreds of key sets sold this year defeat your statement that no one cares to replace them, but there is no point to discuss this fact, if what you want is to express your opinion only, just don't confuse facts and opinions.

[jacobolus]

Almost is the key word in “almost nobody”.

More directly relevant to this thread: I assert that the set of people who would buy this keyboard if the rightmost column of keys were all .5u longer but won’t buy it in its current shape is a tiny group, not worth worrying about. Anyone who cares strongly about using aftermarket keycaps as-is on a new keyboard for aesthetic reasons is going to buy one of a completely standard shape, not this UHK thing with a funky bottom row, weird angular shape, and silly mouse-type buttons with pad printed labels built into the bottom bezel. By all means warn people that you think fall into that group but don’t realize it, but criticizing the vendor here is a waste of everyone’s breath.

It really doesn’t matter to me personally. I’m not interested in this keyboard, and I don’t personally know anyone who would be interested in this keyboard. If you were anxious to buy one and the only thing holding you back is the four keycaps on the right edge, bummer for you I guess?

[ergo_typing]

UHK has just posted the official keycap sizing:

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/layout-and-keycaps

Looks like they are now all regular sizes - just not necessarily a standard 60% set - which would never happen anyway because of a split spacebar. Now I have to work out the cheapest way of getting a complete set of blanks from pimpmykeyboard.

I wonder whether stabilisation will be an issue on the larger keys?

[alienman82]

removed.

[LeandreN]

hey this isn't the VEA!

Ey man

[Bucake]

sigh

[jacobolus]

Looks like they are now all regular sizes - just not necessarily a standard 60% set

Nothing has changed. The part people were complaining about was that they weren’t exactly like standard IBM/ANSI layout keyboards.

[hoggy]

I also started to wonder if their plate has switch opening cutouts. If they need to fabricate a broach to make the holes they might as well make one that can cut a more special shape.

I suggested this to them before their kickstarter campaign... I guess we'll find out when it ships, but since they haven't mentioned it, probably not.

[Jae-3soteric]

Did these ever ship?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xondat]

Did these ever ship?

Holy crap, forgot about this. Still hasn't.

https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard/updates

[Jae-3soteric]

Yeah I just found the order form in my emails to chase up and wondered if it was just me that never got one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gorauskas]

This keyboard is definitely pushing the envelope on the design area. I am going to order me one:

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
https://www.crowdsupply.com/ugl/ultimate-hacking-keyboard

[heedpantsnow]

Over three years of crowdfunding and hasn't shipped yet?

[gorauskas]

Over three years of crowdfunding and hasn't shipped yet?

Damn ... you're right ... but the crowd supply site says it is expected to ship May 31, 2018

[algernon]

FYI, they shipped 50 boards in a pilot run. There were a number of people on twitter posting pictures too.

(I got one as well, currently being typed on and tested by my mom. She's liking it so far.)

[gorauskas]

This Mistel Barocco MD600  looks an awful like the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard ... Quite a bit cheaper, but unfortunately, not the same thing at all.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/mistel-barocco-md600-mechanical-keyboard

[andromeduck]

So I just received mine last week to replace my filco manilla air and it's been pretty great so far. Keycaps are nice, build is good, snap feels good, the cables doesn't look all that great but not particularly bad either. Kind of wish it was wireless with integrated battery in the ears but I guess this is the next best thing. I kind of wish the bottom right ctrl was split from 2.25 -> 1.25 + 1 for a default layer escape key but not really a problem.

Pretty funny looking back at this thread though.

[ptykozoon]

Whoa weird

[TacticalCoder]

A quick question: on the vid it shows MX blue... Are all the UHK using MX blue?

[algernon]

A quick question: on the vid it shows MX blue... Are all the UHK using MX blue?

No, they're not. You have a range of switches you can choose from, see their website: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/uhk60