An Alternative Arrowed 60% Layout + Cherry MX: 1.25U or 1.5U Bottom Modifiers?

[KHAANNN]

Hi everyone,

I'm working on my dream layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f991f1841ee867e972a0355d65dba1d8 (Currently nicknamed Dolch Circus V1) (60% + arrows + standard-ish keycaps)


I use the command key / the key to the left of the spacebar very heavily, so it makes some sense to enlarge it to 1.5U, but honestly, I had no problems with the 1.25U width

1-Con) My main concern is the increased wobble, even stickered MX keycaps wobble a lot, this wobble increases with the size of the keycap
2-Con) Using 1.25U is simpler in terms of keycap availability, If I decide to use 1.25U, I'm going to use blanks for the left and right 1.25 keys, creating a nice symmetry
           (Using 1.5U + 1.25U as blanks doesn't appeal to me, there is no 1.25u "Fn" keycap available, that leaves only the 1.25 Menu icon for the Dolch set, which I don't like much)
3-Pro) For this specific layout, using 1.5u+1.5u on the left side makes the gap symmetrical, there is a 0.75U gap on both left and right sides
4-Pro) I'm still not sure about the functionality of the keys, separating the right 1.25 keycap to be a Menu key for some complex UI/IDE shortcuts makes some sense

I started building/designing keyboards based on available keycaps, otherwise it's impossible to find the right keycaps for a specific layout/design
This will be my last tango with 60%'s, I'm very proud of my arrow placement, I was previously pushing the shift aside to be 1U and making the arrow_up 1.75U and other arrows 1.25U, filling all the spaces, making it impossible to find keycaps, this one is much simpler, uses standard keycaps, but it potentially makes misclicks more likely when using the arrows, if this doesn't work out, I'm back to regular TKL's

I would like to hear some ideas/suggestions - for winkeyless users: does the 1.5U wobble bother you?

[Karura]

Neat! I would be really bothered by the fact the right shift key is moved 1 unit to the right, because I wouldn't be able to type naturally on it with my pinky. Very interesting how you worked in the arrow keys; overall, I like it!

[Tiramisuu]

nice.   I've gotten used to my wasd arrow keys and like the meta keys in the corners but the ability to do colemak on a 50% board is very very nice.

[KHAANNN]

Thanks :)

Honestly, I have a weird typing style that I'm used to and ok with, only the left thumb presses the shift, in that situation, the left fingers cover like 30% of the keyboard while the right hand does most of the job, so I might even remove the right shift and isolate the arrow keys on the right/alone and minimize the mis-clicks that I'm afraid of, the only downside is the looks, I also occasionally use the right shift with vim and when my left hand is occupied, so it's nice to have it there

For pinkie shiftists / better typists, this layout would never work - and in that case, the WASD arrows might be more practical, since the hands are at the home-row

I use the arrow keys heavily, so non-dedicated arrows would probably at-least-halve my effective wpm/typing-speed - the bottle neck is the arrow keys for me, in that regard, a TKL makes a lot of sense, so I might just give up, get a programmable TKL and live happily ever after, however I would rather try some more minimalistic 60% layouts first, as I don't have any use for the F-key-row and the page-up/down block - to sum up, for me, the main challenge is the arrow key placement :)

[Happylomo]

Wow, this is awesome! 60%, with arrows, and all the keys that I need.

Regarding the right shift placement, it wouldn't bother me at all since i've never used it when typing (idk why, though. lol).
On my hhkb jp, I only use it when selecting several consecutive stuffs with one hand

Very great layout design, sir. 

[KHAANNN]

Wow, this is awesome! 60%, with arrows, and all the keys that I need.

Regarding the right shift placement, it wouldn't bother me at all since i've never used it when typing (idk why, though. lol).
On my hhkb jp, I only use it when selecting several consecutive stuffs with one hand :D

Very great layout design, sir.  :thumb:

Thanks :)

It might be because you are a left-thumb-shift typist too, I only noticed these kind of things when I started eliminating things, when you eliminate something, it becomes clear how you use it :)
Interestingly, I only use the right-shift for typing ":wq" and only with vim - my other usages are superficial

Going to build a 60% for my brother with the Hack'd by Geeks SA set soon, decided to use a variation of this layout, I will probably use that keyboard for a bit and decide whether I'm going to stick to the arrow key placement ;)
I hope it works out, because it simplifies a lot of things for me, I'm seeking simplicity, functionality, dedicated-arrows, keycap-availability, keycap-harmony, keyboard-appeal - this layout theoretically has it all

If it doesn't work out, I would probably eliminate keycap-harmony, keyboard-appeal and try this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c59e67e98867467194f7f16dc5c2c4d3 or this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/acd0b980dd2c2a5aef69da1325644f2e

-----

After trying so hard to find a solution to this issue, the qwerty layout's purpose to slow down typists make a lot of sense, placing the arrow keys near the main keys is convenient, yet the added speed/practicality causes mis-clicks, and since those mis-clicks are either to /? or Enter, they are very costly to correct and extremely annoying
My experience is with DSA keycaps, so with the GMK keycaps and Cherry profile, I'm hoping the mis-clicks to be gone

[awhitedev]

Wow, this is awesome! 60%, with arrows, and all the keys that I need.

Regarding the right shift placement, it wouldn't bother me at all since i've never used it when typing (idk why, though. lol).
On my hhkb jp, I only use it when selecting several consecutive stuffs with one hand

Very great layout design, sir. 

I wonder how many of us out there never use the right shift key.

Isn't it better anyways to be able to type just as fast with fewer keys? Isn't that the whole premise behind the smaller layouts? What if we could train the rest of the world to use the space for right shift for other things!

#norightshift

[Happylomo]

I wonder how many of us out there never use the right shift key.

Isn't it better anyways to be able to type just as fast with fewer keys? Isn't that the whole premise behind the smaller layouts? What if we could train the rest of the world to use the space for right shift for other things!

#norightshift

Yeah, i don't use the r-shift for typing. But i use it to select stuffs when using one hand only 
So i still need it. Even though it's only 1u.

Btw, I prefer your layout in the OP, instead of the 2 that you posted afterwards. The original ones definitely looks more tidy.

[KHAANNN]

I also wonder about the right shift usage trends too :)

The layout is even tidier without all the colors, with my history with bold colors, there is a high probability that I might end up using this:

(with 1.25 left modifiers in this photo)
(too bad that the "Control" is actually blue - it kind of warrants some additional color usage)

[azhdar]

How you plan on going about pcb ?

The closest thing that can accomodate your layout is the upcoming AUNK : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73527.0
due to the brazilian layout support (1+1.75 Rshift), but still the bottom row arrows won't be supported, unless you spread them using the 1.25u holes.

[KHAANNN]

How you plan on going about pcb ?

The closest thing that can accomodate your layout is the upcoming AUNK : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73527.0
due to the brazilian layout support (1+1.75 Rshift), but still the bottom row arrows won't be supported, unless you spread them using the 1.25u holes.

When it launches, I'm probably going to buy 1-2 AUNK's, it's good to have PCB's around, with these layout ideas, I'm probably going to soulbind PCB/plates to keycaps, build a PCB/plate combo for each set

I'm planning on drilling into an existing PCB: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73558.0

From previous experience, it proved to be very doable, I 3D-print plates in 3 easily printable pieces, drill/modify the PCB until the switches seat, re-wire/patch things manually

The PCB-part takes 2 minutes, the design of the plate takes long: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72183.0 - due to the manual modifications needed
Also the print fails with some PLA's - for the nudges that vvp suggested, there are a lot of jumps needed, it's challenging to print the plate pieces

Overall the plate manufacturing/design + the switch lubrication/stickering are the hardest parts - but it proved to be very rewarding, 5mm plates + lubed switches don't have any pings, the bottom out is a satisfying pure thock

[ideus]

What size is the space-bar. It looks like 6.25u.

[KHAANNN]

6.25

I ended up completing these keyboards with 3x 1.25 modifiers like usual on the left side, leaving the Ctrl out was unnecessary

1u arrows were too small for me, so I'm back to this layout now: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/e23d8e955068261f54a2

1u arrows worked, yet it was obvious larger arrows would be more optimal, indeed they are, for me

[ideus]

Some months ago I cannot use a keyboard with no arrows, but now, I can and it is even more ergonomic. I was in your shoes though; however, it is always a pain to require special keys for a special layout that are not included in most sets.

[KHAANNN]

I use blanks for arrows and the keys near the spacebar, they are all in different color, works great

Since my arrows are 1.75/1.25/1.25/1.25, printed keys are kind of impossible, centered arrows wouldn't look good, left-aligned arrows would look asymmetrical, blanks work great tho

I have 1.5/1.25/1.25/1.25 GMK Dolch blanks that currently occupy the arrow slots however I'm waiting for Shadovved to ship the additional blanks of his recent GB to upgrade things

With this 60% project, my approach was to find keycaps first and build a keyboard for them, however, in the endgame, finding the optimal layout and finding the keycaps later on was more logical

1.75/1.25/1.25/1.25 arrows are really something, I noticed that 1u arrow combinations require you to cram your fingers, not an issue with 1.25's

I can't use WASD's comfortably for example, maybe with DSA's they could work, but with Cherry's it's out of the question, not that I'm complaining tho, since I don't do gaming, it's just an observation

[Oobly]

This would be unusable for me, as I use right Shift exclusively and hit it right on the left part of the key, exactly where your up arrow is.

Also, no layout is "optimal" IMHO if it still uses a full size spacebar.

Other than those two small issues I think it's a nice layout. I don't have a problem with 1.5x key wobble as long as the switches are stickered.

If you raise your hands higher, your fingertips will naturally rest closer together (so you can use 1x arrows without "cramming" your fingers).

[neverused]

It seems you have settled on larger arrows but I used the layout above to great effect. The split spacebar is very useful.

[KHAANNN]

lol, it looks a lot like the keyboard I built for my brother, I decided SA's are a bit too tall for me, GMK/Cherry is really optimal

I personally can't raise my hands high, my typing method is extremely crude, yet it's extremely comfortable and I have a theory that not raising my hands high and being extremely comfortable prevents issues like carpal tunnel syndrome - I'm basically resting my hands on a 1M high table, the keyboard and the screen is 1M away from me (keyboard is ~50-75cm away) - I only raise my hands a little bit to type, I press alphas with my index fingers and modifiers with other fingers, otherwise my hands are resting on the edges of the keyboard

I also considered a large spacebar to be non-optimal, mainly because I couldn't prevent rattle issues at the time, and the spacebar rattles the highest, however with this method: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72076.0 - spacebar is the easiest to fix, the length of the wire adds a little bit of flex, which eases the method, 2u wires are much harder to get right, since they don't flex and require a precise bending

Anyway, with this layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/e23d8e955068261f54a2
I use Cherry keycaps, and 2x height-reduced DSA's for the spots near the spacebar, since DSA's are easier to press with the thumbs, I also sand the edged of the spacebar a bit since it makes it a lot more comfortable (using DSA for the spacebar is also an option, however, can't let go of the GMK Spacebar elegance, flipping is too extreme, sanding is a nice middle ground, I just sand it enough to convert the edge to a rounded border, so not too much)

I settled with this layout and methods, built one keyboard that I intend to use for a very very long time, I've been using it for some time now, couldn't be happier

[yangdigi]

Thx for sharing.  It's interesting and I did it too.

[KHAANNN]

For some reason I felt so proud after seeing this, looks beautiful 

[Harms]

those layouts look awesome! :O

[ideus]

Now, you could grab a fox kit and the problem is solved, already.

[FoC_Tow]

Awesome work!   
Totally in love with your Layout Khaannn! <3<3

I would honestly much prefer your Arrowed 60% over other options like the WhiteFox Layout and I'm pretty much sold on using this for at least one of my upcoming builds! 

Really liking the arrow key placement and the fact it stays true to 60% size to fit all kinds of standard cases! 


Only suggestion I have is going with a split Backspace (R2 Backspace) for cleaner looks (and in my case personal preference)...

Insert sample pic here:


as well as changing alt, ctrl and fn placements because ISO international requires two alt (alt + alt gr),
and my poker has gotten me used to having Fn on capslock... 

Edit:
Keyboard Editor Link

[KHAANNN]

Awesome work!   
Totally in love with your Layout Khaannn! <3<3

I would honestly much prefer your Arrowed 60% over other options like the WhiteFox Layout and I'm pretty much sold on using this for at least one of my upcoming builds!  :)

Really liking the arrow key placement and the fact it stays true to 60% size to fit all kinds of standard cases!  :thumb:


Only suggestion I have is going with a split Backspace (R2 Backspace) for cleaner looks (and in my case personal preference)...

Insert sample pic here:

Show Image

as well as changing alt, ctrl and fn placements because ISO international requires two alt (alt + alt gr),
and my poker has gotten me used to having Fn on capslock...  ;)

Edit:
Keyboard Editor Link

Thanks a lot FoC_Tow,

Your layout looks great too, recently I gathered all the GMK Keys I have, to try and assemble the best looking keycap layout, it was very close to yours (Looked like this, for some reason I neglected to take an actual photo: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/f16e040784f0adbb5720)

Practically tho, as a bit of a spoiler, arrows without gaps are hard to get used to, so Varmilo VA68M tempted me a lot, it doesn't stay within 60%, yet it has an aluminium case and arrows with some gap
If the case was black and if the stabs were costar ones, I would give that keyboard a real chance (since hasu's usb-usb converter theoretically handles programming, it could work)

My next layout trial is going to be this: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/1a87c0013c86bb9ca963 (both look much better in person :)
- Tackles a bottom row mis-click issue I have, Alt is very functional for me, I usually can't recover after using Alt, instead of Cmd+S, I press Alt+S, adding a gap there will theoretically help, Ctrl isn't very useful anyway
- I can use Dolch keycaps heavily, I like Dolch, with other layouts I end up using too much color, going to use a stepped 1.75 blank, instead of the white "Control" I always end up using
- The arrows are a bit challenging, couldn't decide what to use yet, I can continue using 1.25 blanks, or retry a 1u gapped arrow block again, I'm also thinking of using the 1u arrows in 1.25 slots, so I will use a standard PCB, but the arrows will stay far apart, I've tried arrows in those positions, they are extremely comfortable, yet they are a pain to look at :)

Anyway, I just wanted to share the current state of my 60% journey in case any of my experiences help you, all of these keyboards are practically usable, I'm especially in love with the latest one, I've settled with it, yet I'm a bit bored, so I'm going to try and 3d-print the plate with bronzefill filament and attempt a gapped+arrowed bronze/dolch 60% next

It looks pretty bad, but if you don't use the right shift heavily, I suggest you consider enlarging the arrows or placing them with a bit of gap

[KRKS]

I like the idea behind your layout, but I wouldn't use it for two reasons:
1) I use right Shift(probably even more than the left one)
2) I need right Alt

But since most of my ideas involve either lefthand tenkey or other form of moving the keyboard's center away fro the mouse anyway, I decided to screw around with it.


KLE raw data:

Code: [Select]

["/\nF10","*\nF11","-\nF12","Num Lock","Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","~\n`","|\n\\\n\n\nInsert"],
["7\nF7","8\nF8","9\nF9",{h:2},"+",{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"Backspace\n\n\n\nDelete"],
["4\nF4","5\nF5","6\nF6",{x:1,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter\n\n\n\nPrint"],
["1\nF1","2\nF2","3\nF3","↑\n\n\n\nPgUp",{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
["0\nCaps",".\nScroll","←\n\n\n\nHome","↓\n\n\n\nPgDn","→\n\n\n\nEnd",{x:1.5,w:1.25},"Fn",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:4},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Fn",{w:1.25},"Meta",{x:1.25},"ISO Next"]

Not prefect, but I might go further in this direction. Thank you for inspiration!

[KHAANNN]

I like the idea behind your layout, but I wouldn't use it for two reasons:
1) I use right Shift(probably even more than the left one)
2) I need right Alt

But since most of my ideas involve either lefthand tenkey or other form of moving the keyboard's center away fro the mouse anyway, I decided to screw around with it.

Show Image

KLE raw data:

Code: [Select]

["/\nF10","*\nF11","-\nF12","Num Lock","Esc","!\n1","@\n2","#\n3","$\n4","%\n5","^\n6","&\n7","*\n8","(\n9",")\n0","_\n-","+\n=","~\n`","|\n\\\n\n\nInsert"],
["7\nF7","8\nF8","9\nF9",{h:2},"+",{w:1.5},"Tab","Q","W","E","R","T","Y","U","I","O","P","{\n[","}\n]",{w:1.5},"Backspace\n\n\n\nDelete"],
["4\nF4","5\nF5","6\nF6",{x:1,w:1.75},"Ctrl","A","S","D","F","G","H","J","K","L",":\n;","\"\n'",{w:2.25},"Enter\n\n\n\nPrint"],
["1\nF1","2\nF2","3\nF3","↑\n\n\n\nPgUp",{w:2.25},"Shift","Z","X","C","V","B","N","M","<\n,",">\n.","?\n/",{w:2.75},"Shift"],
["0\nCaps",".\nScroll","←\n\n\n\nHome","↓\n\n\n\nPgDn","→\n\n\n\nEnd",{x:1.5,w:1.25},"Fn",{w:1.25},"Alt",{a:7,w:4},"",{a:4,w:1.25},"Alt",{w:1.25},"Fn",{w:1.25},"Meta",{x:1.25},"ISO Next"]

Not prefect, but I might go further in this direction. Thank you for inspiration!

Thanks, and thanks for sharing, pretty interesting

The right mouse space is indeed pretty useful, I've considered going back to a TKL a couple of times, but I'm too used to having the mouse closer to the keyboard, so practically, once you gain that space, it's hard to go back

If you are not bound by the 60% rectangle (mainly advantage is 60% cases and 60% PCB's) - and if you don't really need the numpad, I think a laptop-keyboard-like mechanical might be the way to go

So there would be 6 rows instead of 5 but only arrow_left/down/right on the 6th row

(Just remembered this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.0 - like this but without the enlarged bottom row and with ~standard keycaps)

-- -- --

Another wicked idea is to build a standalone arrow controller, a keyboard that just has arrows, it's elevated and angled - it would latch onto 60%'s from behind, near the backspace

[KHAANNN]

Reviving my old thread, here's my latest and last iteration

1st) Standard keycaps - Good | Arrows were crammed into keycaps - Bad - Many misclicks - Annoying | PCB required modifications (Bad, but now there are PCB's supporting it)
2nd) 1.75/1.25/1.25/1.25 Arrows | Using 1.5/1.25/1.25/1.25 Arrows - Good - No misclicks - Very comfortable - No PCB Modifications | No Keycap Support - Bad
3rd-Last) Using spaced out 1u Arrows - No misclicks - Uses existing standard right modifier placements for arrows - Only Left Alt requires a PCB modification - ~Standard Keycaps

So basically, the 3rd iteration, combines the good parts of 1st and 2nd

I used the 2nd iteration for 2 years, it was a good layout to settle with, the 3rd one is just perfect for me, ended my layout quest

[killyou]

I will never understand people insisting on arrow clusters in keyboards >=60%. Even on TKL and fullsize I miss capslock as Fn + arrows on Fn layer.

[ideus]

I will never understand people insisting on arrow clusters in keyboards >=60%. Even on TKL and fullsize I miss capslock as Fn + arrows on Fn layer.

At some point I was as obsessed as this thread on having arrows on my sixties. The Space-FN solved the problem, once and for all. No more weird layouts anymore. Only the essential type writer keys are needed now. Cannot be happier. Since then, threads like this are just memories of a toxic period on my quest for the ideal layout.

[KHAANNN]

They are probably 100's of typing styles, these layouts serve a small subset - let's not bring back the old religious discussions :)