still waiting for my M

[wellington1869]

Be aware that the frame assemblies from an "old" Model M are different than a "new" Model M (Unicomp)...so they likely won't fit properly.  Unicomp refers to these as the "old manufacturing process frame assemblies" and the "new manufacturing process frame assemblies".  

(which is why it is important to give them the P/N off the 'board you want to order a new frame assembly for)

well I'll open a project thread on this once i'm ready to do it (I dont even have the nut drivers with which to open the M case Just ordered those too).  So I'm not sure yet what parts are what and what I'll need to order. Will be interesting to try though.

[wellington1869]

basically I would really like to try to drop endura pro internals into a 1391401 shell.

[iMav]

basically I would really like to try to drop endura pro internals into a 1391401 shell.

So you want one of these...

(aka the M13)

Check it
This too

[wellington1869]

So you want one of these...

haha! basically, yes -- but with what I'm imagining is a heavier case, shell, and keys from the original M (and thus a heavier board and lower toned sounds, according to theory)

(and what i'd get over the m13 is shorter spacebar (which I like and kind of need) and usb (which I'd like) and lower current draw (supposedly the M draws 100 times more current than modern boards!)

[andb]

About pads under a 'board, Im thinking about getting a leather writing pad, maybe something like http://www.ebags.com/bosca/old_leather_34_x_20_desk_pad/product_detail/index.cfm?modelid=67381&productid=792934&sourceID=GOOGFEED&color=Dark%20Brown&CAWELAID=26892878. I think it should be effective and definitely looks better then my asphalt sheet idea!

[skriefal]

You can find those desk pads at Office Max, Office Depot, etc, for $20 or so.  They won't be made from leather, but they're a lot cheaper than the leather variety!

[Busty]

Wellington, it's probably your adapter.  PS2 to USB adapters have been known to cause odd behaviour with Ms.

I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.

[wellington1869]

I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.

can you get this in european amazon? If it works well on PC's I imagine it would work well on macs...

[secularzarathustra]

This is the one I have and it works on my wife's macbook

[xsphat]

I use a $15 Radio Shack brand one. I have a had one for a few years now and it's still working good on my M mini.

[lowpoly]

I am waiting for my first M, too, after I finally found an US layout 1391401 on EBay Germany. Any recommendations for PS2-to-USB that works an MacBook in OS X with a Ms (preferable from German retailers)? The cheap Y-shaped one I bought to use with another old mechanical board didn't work.

I'll try mine on Monday. This will be with Windows though.

[wellington1869]

I've also been considering the sheets of sound absorption material they sell to stick on the underside of stereo speakers. (like these). peel and stick and made for just that purpose (to kill resonance).

so I bought a bunch of these neoprene stick on pads to kill resonance. I'll try them out soon as they get here, hope they work!
The M isnt as loud as I remember (tho I think this is one of the lower volume m's). The noise is just on the borderline, I think if I can kill the desk resonance just a little it might be good to go. Wont have to grease the springs or anything.

I did grease the plungers though (not the springs), initially in order to lower resistance a touch (which it did) but a side-effect was that it also did change tone just slightly (made it a touch more lower toned). Which is fine I guess, every little bit helps

Most people prolly wont notice the slight changes to tone and volume, but I'm hyper sensitive to it since I need to keep noise down in my room...

[andb]

Im not sure if I mentioned earlier, but not too long ago I started typing with my M on my lap. Not only is it much more comfortable then on my rather too high desk, but its also quieter. Partially because I find that I can type with just the exact amount of pressure needed to activate the key, partially due to there being no desk resonance. For example, I used to slap the spacebar which sounded like a misfiring engine. Now its one of the quietest keys.

I thought it odd at first to type with the keyboard on my lap, but it does really work and the M's battleship bulk makes it very stable, it is well suited for such placement.

[iMav]

I use keyboard drawers from Ikea which both place the keyboard at optimal height for me, but also provide decent sound dampening.  They have some foam/rubber "stuff" on them that do a good job in that regard.  They are also incredibly solid and stable...just as sturdy as if the keyboard was on the desk.

Here's an older pic of one of them in my home office (after I had first assembled my new desk setup).

[lowpoly]

Looks like this one will work:

http://cgi.ebay.de/USB-PS-2-Konverter-aktiv-2x-PS-2-Adapter-an-USB-Port_W0QQitemZ220324741677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDE_Technik_Computerzubeh%C3%B6r_Kabel_Adapter?hash=item220324741677

I'm currently writing this post with it (Windows Vista). I didn't test it that long. It's also one of the few that can handle a Trackpoint II.

Edit: works on Linux too.

[Busty]

Danke lowpoly.

What is the difference between active and passive adapters? Is it related to drivers for ps/2 devices that don't support USB natively or is it the higher current needed for mechanical keyboards?

[lowpoly]

I tried the passive ones with several (older) boards. Never worked. IIRC, the board pcb has to support both modes for the passive adapters to work. And this is never the case with older boards.

[wellington1869]

Danke lowpoly.

What is the difference between active and passive adapters? Is it related to drivers for ps/2 devices that don't support USB natively or is it the higher current needed for mechanical keyboards?

According to the description on the clickykeyboards website, passive ones just have pass through wires, while active ones have a chip inside that converts the signal...

[bhtooefr]

Exactly. Passive adapters are used for devices that have both USB and PS/2 controllers inside, but a PS/2 connector. (And, there are passive adapters to go the other way, too - USB connector to PS/2 port.)

[wellington1869]

Incidentally my white alps board should be arriving today (smk-85, refurbished, DSI). Looking forward to it. Hopefully this one will work!
I havent spent much time with white alps, just 10 minutes with a macally in J&R, though those 10 minutes made me want to know more

I have to say I'm loving the M (while it feels like working anyway, still waiting for the replacement.) But I had forgotten what a joy it is to type on the M all day long and never get tired of it.

Thats the amazing thing about the M, for me anyway. Is that you can honestly type on it all day and its such an incredibly satisfying experience, the combination of solid tactile feel and solid audible feedback makes you feel like you're working with your hands in a wood working shop. It helps allieve some of the alienation and isolation of the body that one often feels when working with soulless computers in soulless offices


Its not even like "click click click", its more like "ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk".    Feel like I'm driving a steam engine or something when I type.

The white alps was intrigueing too, typing on it was like "snap, snap, snap". Very sharp "snap" sound, like I was shooting rubberbands at someone with every keypress. Also satisfying though in a different way. Also more of a "floaty" feeling with the keys, much lighter touch and barely needed to bottom out. It was really satisfying come to think of it.  So it will be interesting for me to compare these two side by side, finally.

[itlnstln]

While I love Alps switches, I do like deeper "clack"" of the BSs vs. the "snap" of the Alps.  Even though the feel is great, I really do like softer, more solid sound of the BSs and Cherry MLs (not that the Alps aren't solid by any means, it's just that the BSs feel "meatier").  I would love to try an ErgoPlus, but the price of the US version and the frustration of using an EU version is a showstopper.  I think I would thoroughly enjoy a Cherry brown 'board now that I used an ML4100.

[wellington1869]

(not that the Alps aren't solid by any means, it's just that the BSs feel "meatier")..

ya, exactly.

ok, just got the white alps board (smk 85). Question: arent white alps supposed to click? (not just the bottoming out clack, but also a click on the way down?)
At least thats how I remember them from the store...  unless I was mistaking bottoming out clack for a click?

The smk85 I have in my hands right now - looks like, first of all, its strongman (and thats fine). The switches are white and rectangular (like white alps) but dont say 'alps' on them so they're strongman (and there is a big strong man label on the back of the board). And thats fine. However, there is no discernable "click" on the way down, only a bottoming out 'snap' (which does sound familiar to me, if I recall my experience with the macally). But I could have sworn there was a click on the way down... isnt there?

And if there isnt a click on the way down, whats the diff then between black and white alps! I thought that was the difference!


(incidentally I do like the feel quite a bit, have to play with it a bit more though).

[itlnstln]

On real Alps switches, there is supposed to be a click about 1/3 of the way down the keystroke, but I don't know about Strongmans.

[wellington1869]

On real Alps switches, there is supposed to be a click about 1/3 of the way down the keystroke, but I don't know about Strongmans.

There is definitely a tactile bump 1/3 of the way down, and there is a very very light sound there, but not what I'd call a click I guess.

The overall feel though is pretty close to what I remember with the macally.

Other than the possibly missing click, the other thing i'm noticing right away is:
a) gunshot spacebar when it bottoms (this seems to be a common thing with mechanical keyboards! I'm going to dampen that at some point.
b) hitting keys offcenter is a bit odd (I think others have talked about this before). With the regular keys, hitting them offcenter, you notice both friction/noise as well as the key not depressing as easily. WIth big keys like the enter key, hitting it off center you notice a lot of difference in resistance.

On the whole though its not a bad feeling board at all, i'm flying on it in terms of typing, and despite virtually no click except bottoming (and topping) clacks, the feedback is quite positive, almost on par with the M. Also the "floating" sensation is there, pretty much like how I remember it.

[wellington1869]

by the way, this is exactly the one I got. Sounds like it too. Which is strange - cuz the keyb there is 'force reduced' with the clicking metal leaf removed from the switches!

by the way, it appears that others on geekhack have received "non clicky" smk85's from DSI before (and called them "lemons!").
Mine is definitley non-clicky. And looks like I got a lemon too, therefore.  (I just have to decide if I want to keep it anyway since I may want something less noisy anyway... or exchange it for the real thing). I think I'll probably exchange it for the real thing, because I can always remove the click-leaf inside the keys myself if I want to get rid of the click). Better to have a non-lemon keyboard to begin with...

My keyboard luck has been pretty bad lately.

[xsphat]

Mine had black sliders and the keyboard was noisy as hell. My MK96 on the other hand (which I get out every other day lately because of you  Wellington) clicks louder than the BS and it happens about a third of the way down. So even if you are careful to not bottom out it still is loud.

And I'm with you when you say the BS feel more solid than Alps. They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!

[itlnstln]

They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!

QFT.  I love my Alps, but occasionally I pine for something a little less sharp, like brown Cherries perhaps.

[bigpook]

Mine had black sliders and the keyboard was noisy as hell. My MK96 on the other hand (which I get out every other day lately because of you  Wellington) clicks louder than the BS and it happens about a third of the way down. So even if you are careful to not bottom out it still is loud.

And I'm with you when you say the BS feel more solid than Alps. They are so different but in the day they were the big two, so they are both great in their own ways. That's why you have to have both!

What do you mean by the BS feeling more solid then the Alps?

[wellington1869]

That's why you have to have both!

totally agreed!

I'm definitely going to have both. I'm typing on the smk-85 even without the click I'm loving it, my fingers are *flying*. Great feedback even when its just tactile; the sharp snap (when it works!) adds to the enjoyment.

So I definitely want both; which means I have to exchange this lemon and get one that actually clicks

[wellington1869]

What do you mean by the BS feeling more solid then the Alps?

ka-chunk ka-chunk versus snap snap

[wellington1869]

QFT.  I love my Alps, but occasionally I pine for something a little less sharp, like brown Cherries perhaps.

its funny, while both brown and blue cherries were very cool, I'm all over the bs and alps for the moment. *love* them both... feeling much more feedback (on all my senses) with both of those than with any cherry, and so they both feel faster, feel more accurate, more enjoyable, and etc. To me anyway...

[wellington1869]

The saga rolls on... so I contacted DSI about exchanging this for one that actually clicks...
Oh, to make things worse, the right arrow key got stuck (again just like sf-applet's experience)

If they'll exchange it tho I'll happily keep it, as I would very much like to have both bs and white alps.

[wellington1869]

Strange, been typing on this for a couple of hours now, and I kinda like it! I mean even without the click. It still feels like white alps but without most of the noise.
Hell, maybe I should keep it.
(The stuck right arrow turned out to be caused by the plastic casing that came loose, I snapped it back shut and now its ok).
I think tomorrow I'll take a subway trip down to J&R and try that macally again, and then decide whether I want normal white alps or this wacky silenced one. Its pretty great to type on... if you want a light touch board, white alps rock.  Its also a nice complement to buckling springs if you like swapping back and forth between heavy touch and light touch the way I seem to be liking.

[Chloe]

How would you compare it to the brown MX in the Compaq you had? Do you find it as easy to bottom out on the SMK-85? I hope they test the one they send you if you do decide to exchange it.

[wellington1869]

How would you compare it to the brown MX in the Compaq you had? Do you find it as easy to bottom out on the SMK-85? I hope they test the one they send you if you do decide to exchange it.

Hmmm, thats a good question...  I guess I'd say in comparison to the browns, these:
-have slightly more resistance. (even though I'd still class these as light touch; they're not even close to black cherries which have too much resistance for me, and not as much as buckling springs either)). I like this level of resistance better than browns, it seems I've steadily gravitated towards increased resistance ever since using the browns on the compaq.
-Tactile bump on these comes earlier, I think. Just slightly. Also its more pronounced.
-These also pushback more. Gives that 'floating' feeling when you type fast. Browns didnt pushback much at all (in comparison to these anyway).
-these have a slightly deeper throw, I think -- feels that way, only just slightly though.
-and of course when they're working normally, these have a fairly loud click.

So basically they're like browns that have been working out a bit.  But still in the "light touch" category. But as a result the overall tactility and feedback is pushed up a notch compared to the browns.

[Chloe]

Thanks wellington, it sounds like I will like these. I do like the browns but want them to be more tactile, and sometimes they feel a bit too passive.

I wonder how these switches you have differ internally to clicky white ALPS. I think if you take the click out it makes them linear?

[wellington1869]

Thanks wellington, it sounds like I will like these

I think you'd like them too, based on what you were saying. they're still quite light. I'm discovering that a good match between typist and keyboard is all about tuning. Really tiny shifts in sound or resistance make big differences in accuracy and comfort. These would only be incrementally different from browns, and yet different enough.

I wonder how these switches you have differ internally to clicky white ALPS. I think if you take the click out it makes them linear?

ya, thats one of the things thats weird about these. I dont think its just a case of a missing metal leaf. Maybe there are two kinds of strongmans? There were a variety of alps switches after all (and color coding wasnt really a 100% reliable way to tell them apart).

[wellington1869]

I'm thinking they're "gray" strongmans, if there is such a thing.
Chloe, do you know of any obscure web pages with info on gray strongmans?

By the way, the http://www.strong-man.com.tw website isnt up any more?

[cchan]

http://64.176.254.221/ ... Their forward DNS is broken it seems.

[wellington1869]

http://64.176.254.221/ ... Their forward DNS is broken it seems.

thanks! love the geekhack hive mind.

[Chloe]

I'm thinking they're "gray" strongmans, if there is such a thing.
Chloe, do you know of any obscure web pages with info on gray strongmans?

It might be worth taking one apart to see how the leaf and stem compare to these:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot3.htm
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot2.htm

[bhtooefr]

STRONG WANGS ENTERPRISE CO., LTD.

Wow.

[wellington1869]

It might be worth taking one apart to see how the leaf and stem compare to these:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot3.htm
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot2.htm

hey, looking at those pics, the switches I have are *definitely* not white. They're totally gray in comparison. My guess is "there is another strongman" (as Yoda might put it on his deathbed).

I'll try taking one apart, tho I have to be super careful since I'm returning this one for an exchange...

[xsphat]

Wow.

I thought that too.

[Chloe]

hey, looking at those pics, the switches I have are *definitely* not white. They're totally gray in comparison. My guess is "there is another strongman" (as Yoda might put it on his deathbed).

I'll try taking one apart, tho I have to be super careful since I'm returning this one for an exchange...

If you do, please take some macro photos!

[wellington1869]

If you do, please take some macro photos!

I will

[Chloe]

How does the grey compare to the one in this thread?
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://forum.talkdigi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19

[wellington1869]

How does the grey compare to the one in this thread?
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=cn&u=http://forum.talkdigi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19

You /are/ the google-queen. My grays look like the grays in the pics there... I'm about 99% sure...  

From what I understand from the pics and translation though, the grays ("easy axis") is supposed to click the same as the whites (the metal click leaf looks the same).

This much definitely appears to be true: "But the average is ALPS axis, with the same name, but have very different internal". Indeed.

[wellington1869]

I'm still kind of liking these clickless alps... still torn about whether to exchange them or not. Its pretty much everything I liked about white alps (including tactile bump) without the loud pingy "snap" which might have been a noise issue for me anyway. So I guess I'll head out to J&R and compare with clicky whites and try to decide...

[itlnstln]

I should be getting my NIB Dells with black Alps soon.  I wil let you know if they have the friction-enhanced switches like the older ones I bought several weeks ago.