N-key rollover test.

[Ysaquerai]

@all
how about using http://random.xem.us/rollover.html
1.) Shift+A+W
2.) Shift+W+D
3.) Spacebar+Shift+A+W
4.) Spacebar+Shift+W+D
5.) W+B+6

These is the most keys that i press when i play counterstrike, can IBM Model M or similar IBM keyboard pass this? Although we know for a fact that the minimum for IBM keyboards for NKRO are (2) Coz if it does i may buy my very first IBM M.

Help anyone.

[Etinin]

The combinations work fine on my USB Unicomp SpaceSaver.
I also play COD 4 regularly with it and have no problem, but you should wait for someone with an original IBM keyboard to test it, Unicomp apparently uses different electronics.

[keyb_gr]

My 1993 Model M has no problems generating these five. Nor does a vintage Cherry G81-1000SBD / 03 (Made in West Germany, baby) - or a G80-3000LFADE / 01 (MF2 layout, DIN plug, '97 or so), for that matter. They're all 2-key rollover (I think you can't do any better in membrane-based 'boards, not easily at least) but the matrix layouts are different. The Cherrys also pass QWAS and similar combos that the IBM fails (which in return does QWER).

EDIT: I found a board that will not do Shift-W-D, my trusty Packard Bell (NEC inside, I presume) 5131C. It also fails QWSD and QWCV, so I guess the matrix runs along QSC and WDV. It's the only 'board of the bunch to have those newfangled Windows keys (but has been with me the longest, since late '95). Should check with a contemporary G81.

EDIT^2: A G81-3000LRNDE - 0 / 01 (a more recent 105-key sample) behaves like the other Cherrys, so I guess we can conclude that they're consistent.

EDIT^3: Pretty much the most I can get with the vintage G81-1000 is about 8 keys sans modifiers, e.g. 12QWASYX. With modifiers I get 3 more keys, i.e 11.

[nowsharing]

Kensington K64365 - Slim Type Keyboard PC

Interface: USB
Operating System: tested on Linux Mint & Vista 64, same results
Max keys accepted: 6

I couldn't get any error message with it. I did notice that if I select 6 keys from the home row, I get 6 accepted. But if I switch to the number row it will fluctuate between 2 and 1 depending on which key I select. So basically the results of this test don't apply to this board, as there are an almost infinite number of key combinations, some of which result in 6, 5, 2, or 1 keys being accepted.

[keyb_gr]

The script posted on the first page is useless. You want to know the MINIMUM of keys that are accepted when pressed together. The aforementioned http://random.xem.us/rollover.html is much better suited.

Here are the results for the revision 17 G80-1000 (1989 vintage) that arrived today:

This one still has the 8051 microcontroller. It also has more generous rollover than its newer cousins - it'll still take QWEASD or QWEASDYXC (no more than 3 in a row though, so it's technically a 3-key rollover), and I can press all of numeric 1..9 + either 0/Ins or ,/Del at the same time. (It be added that QWE + UIOPÜ+ works, so it still is quite a generous 4-key rollover.)

For comparison: The 1996 vintage G80-3000 (3-key rollover) can only do QW + TZ + OP, and it won't accept every combination of 2 keys per row on the num pad either.

[IBI]

The script posted on the first page is useless. You want to know the MINIMUM of keys that are accepted when pressed together. The aforementioned http://random.xem.us/rollover.html is much better suited.

If the first link is useless for you then it must be your browser disagreeing with it since it works fine for me. This second one is better though since it's easier to explain what to look for.

[keyb_gr]

The only thing that bothers me about this thread is that we have a sticky with over 13,803 views that doesn't address the basic issue if NKey is really worth the money or not.

That would have been a good thing to discuss in more detail, agreed. Maybe something for the Wiki?

In general, you do not need N-key rollover. In many cases, a keyboard with a modest [strike]2[/strike]3-key rollover is perfectly sufficient even for more demanding applications such as some games, as long as it doesn't use a very barebones (or badly designed) key matrix.

Applications that may place higher demands on rollover capabilities include:

• Braille2000 input
• emulating a musical instrument's keyboard

OK, I think I'll create a new Wiki article.

[IBI]

This is the most interesting:

Only 2 of their keyboards support it (I woulda thought he'd include the G19)  and they sell exactly 1 Kajillion keyboards.  This is just an assumption but I would think if it was a real issue the gamers would be all over it.  

- Ripster

I remember that post, it was posted before the G19 was even announced.

Gamers isn't a very good term since there is a wide variety of games and different sorts have different requirements, it's quite possible for something like the G11/G15/G19 to appeal to one group while being a poor choice for another.

I've certainly noticed it happening in games though, and while I'm not competetive enough to find >3-key rollover more than a luxury I can well understand anyone who wants to play seriously desiring it.

[keyb_gr]

Still the question is: How do they pull it off in the few 'boards that do claim N-key rollover? The DiNovo Edge, for example, is a scissor switch board. Did they find a way to include surface mount components (here: diodes) on the membrane, Siemens-style?

[ch_123]

Having never come across a keyboard that gives problems with mashing buttons while playing games, I think the whole n-key rollover thing is a bit of a marketing gimmick, at least in my experience.

[IBI]

Given the way the PC game industry is going we may be looking back at gaming on a keyboard with nostalgia.

Feeling cynical today are we?

How about this scenario:

You've just come round a left handed bend and spotted a nasty monster so you immediately reverse direction and start shooting the monster, your team mates are a couple of second behind you so then bring up the voice command to warn them.

Now you'll have to move backwards and left if you want to keep shooting the monster otherwise you'll either bang into the wall or your reticule will be too far over so that's the A and S keys held down. The voice command menu in this particular game happens to be the X key, which is a fairly common assignment.

And oh dear, you're hammering X to warn your team mates but the menu isn't coming up. They run straight into the monster and get eaten because A,S and X is blocked on most keyboards.

[keyb_gr]

That ASX combo is a pretty good testcase. It fails on the Model M, and I guess it would on the Packard Bell 5131C (as well as the G81-12100 with its M-ish matrix). Works on G80-1000 + G80-3000, and also should on regular G81s.

BTW, the M will do QWER + UIOP, but then the other rows will pretty much be blocked. TZ (TY on US 'boards) and Ü+ are particularly bad, the former will block 4567, R, U, FGHJ and VBNM. I  guess they figured that those two letters would be assigned to different hands and not be hit at once so often.

For the G80-3000, such an "evil combo" is ET. It blocks 2345, SDFG and XCVB. I could not find such a combo for the revision 17 G80-1000, that one really is a lot more competent in terms of rollover.

[bigpook]

Of course, now I'll never look at my IBM Model M Mini the same (sob...).

- Ripster

You know, if its that bad, I would be nice enough to, how shall we say this, relieve you of the offending item.

[bigpook]

yeah, I know the feeling. : )

btw, what year is your mini?

[bigpook]

hmmm, remember what happened to Deagol?

[bigpook]

lol, I guess you do remember : )

You know, I don't have a '93 yet....is it in good shape?

[Rajagra]

I just searched the Logitech forum (gawd I forgotten how awful that forum is)   for "Nkey rollover" and got 8 hits out of 14,947 posts.
...
Only 2 of their keyboards support it (I woulda thought he'd include the G19)  and they sell exactly 1 Kajillion keyboards.  This is just an assumption but I would think if it was a real issue the gamers would be all over it.  

How many Logitech keyboard owners know what N-key rollover truly means? The term is a bit vague.

On the other hand, how many players have ripped their hair out shouting "why won't this :censored: game do what I tell it to?"

[keyb_gr]

Just noticed that this 2002 vintage Czech G80-3000LPMDE-0 / 00 has a Model M-like matrix, like the G81-12100 before. That means QWER and SDFJKL, but no QWAS or ASX.

[Hak Foo]

If the WASD key layout tends to have rollover issues with other important keys, why not remap movement to another key group?

[o2dazone]

I have a friend that uses ESDF, but I use WASD (in WoW). Really it doesn't matter. World of Warcraft is such a joke of a game, that access to a few extra keys won't make or break your ability to play effectively, including pvp. It might or might not make a difference in FPS's, but I find myself needing even fewer keys while trying to strafe and shoot people in the head. With that said, playing in the middle of the keyboard is great for real time strategies, or 4x games. One of the few times where having access to 25 key/keybinds with one hand is super valuable, because of all the micro you'll be doing with your units

[Rajagra]

I decided to use RDFG to move when I last remapped my keyboard. It gives a ton of extra keys within instant reach compared to WASD. You lose easy access to modifier keys - but you don't need them because you have instant access to functions via all those inidividual buttons you can now reach!

Having said that I didn't know at the time that some keyboards are designed around the WASD keys rollover-wise. I map the important keys to my N52 anyway.

Did you know the original N50 had virtually no rollover ability? It could cope with 2 simultaneous keys, three if you were lucky. The designers should have been shot for that one.

[IBI]

If the WASD key layout tends to have rollover issues with other important keys, why not remap movement to another key group?

That might be the reason WASD took over from the arrow keys in the first place, as the arrow keys can block more often on some keyboards.

And rebinding keys for every game would get a bit annoying.

[Homeless]

Does anyone know the cheapest n key rollover keyboard that doesn't have any issues?  The ABS is cheap, but has some unresolved issues and the das keyboard messes up if you type too fast (to my knowledge at least).  Any help would be appreciated

[Rajagra]

I don't know of any n-key rollover keyboards without any issues.

As an aside, re the 6-key USB limitation, wouldn't it be quite easy for a keyboard to pretend to be two separate keyboards, hence raising the limit to 12? Or even 3/18, as many as desired really.

[Homeless]

the 6 key thing is more of a usb limitation rather than a keyboard limitation.  If it has full key rollover in the standard port it wouldn't bother me

[itlnstln]

the 6 key thing is more of a usb limitation rather than a keyboard limitation. If it has full key rollover in the standard port it wouldn't bother me

It's not even really a USB limitation.  It's a limitation of the generic HID USB driver.  If manufacturers built custom drivers, this wouldn't (necessarily) be a problem.
 
Credit goes to bhtooefr for the explanation.

[itlnstln]

Weren't some of the Northgates NKRO?  I know the Evolution isn't, but maybe some of the others are.

[itlnstln]

How about the Cherry Blue Cherry Chinese special. I think I'll shorten that to CBCC - sounds Communist like the DPRK.

If you're talking about the G80-3000, it only has 2KRO.

[Viett]

According to cchan894 the Cherry MX8100 (Cherry MX Brown) has full rollover. It costs about $30 shipped. Only setback is that it is PS/2 in ISO.

[IBI]

I don't know of any n-key rollover keyboards without any issues.

The Raptor-gaming K1 doesn't have any issues, but it does have linear cherry MXs (or did when I got mine last year) which won't be to everyone's tastes. As far as I know neither does the Steelseries 7G or whatever silly name Razer's effort has got.

[IBI]

So the Steelseries 7g is $121.

I didn't find the Raptor on this side of the pond but I guess it's 129 Euros ($180 US!!).  Boy, their website was annoying.

Sounds like you got the dud link, their normal site is much better: http://www.raptor-gaming.de/

Like most manufacturer's website the price they list is much higher than normal, I paid £70 for my K1 a year ago, despite them listing it for ~£100 so you could probably knock 30% off that price

[Homeless]

The Kensington K6435 is reported to have n-key - not sure how rigorous his testing was.  Would be OK for gaming if you like scissor switches.  LOL - read the review though and expect to buy one a year.

This  Scorpius M10 review states n-key but the  testing in this thread indicates 2 key minimum.  Nobody start talking about maximum.  Who WOULD care about maximum?  Oh yeah, the Scorpius MARKETING DEPARMENT, that's who.

And anyone reading this DO NOT USE THE OP TEST - use this one!  Be sure to check keys on different rows, don't just mash down QWERTY.  Throw a spacebar in there for good measure.

http://random.xem.us/rollover.html

Hey Homeless.  I just noticed your first post is Jan 27th looking for a nkey board!  I thought I had killed this thread before you came back. :rip: :rip:

If N-Key is that important to you I think the Filcos are the way to go.  Under $100 looks like a LOT of compromises.  The Das obviously has it's problems or the CEO wouldn't be apologizing for it.

Back in January I was looking for the perfect keyboard, which many recommended to be a realforce.  I was all ready to get one, but finances got in the way and I kept using a "normal" keyboard.  I've managed to gather some money since then and am finally ready to purchase.  I was looking at the Filcos and have read good things about them, but I have no idea where to purchase one or if it's even the best choice for me.  N key is important to me because I notice a large amount of the time when I type fast, the keys come out ot instead of to

[Rajagra]

Much better.  I liked the camo mousepad:

Show Image

I see no mouse. :eyebrows:

[o2dazone]

ripster should change his title to "KING OF PIX"

[IBI]

I was looking at the Filcos and have read good things about them, but I have no idea where to purchase one or if it's even the best choice for me.

That depends on which country you're in and what you like in keyboards, if you want a recommendation of places to buy and what might suit you then I suggest you start a new thread with details.

N key is important to me because I notice a large amount of the time when I type fast, the keys come out ot instead of to

That's got nothing to do with rollover, if they're coming out in the wrong order and it's not you then it's likely to be the same problem that the Das Keyboard III. In fact, The current das keyboard suffers from it despite having 7-key/n-key rollover. If you're looking at keyboards similar to the cost of the steelseries it's unlikely to be a problem you'll have to worry about - any that have it would probably be well known here like the Das III.

[IBI]

Let's send him to Costar and make him live there 6 months until the Das 4 is ready!

They must have some interesting keyboards there.

[alpslover]

2nd that!  And where's Bhtooefr.  He actually nailed the Das problem way back in November!!

that explanation is not quite right though.  for one thing, scanning the keys more slowly isn't going to magically increase the number of simultaneous keypresses if the underlying keyboard matrix doesn't support it, and secondly, the 6 simultaneous keypress limit is a limit of the hid usb protocol, whereas key scan rate (as distinct from usb polling rate) is determined by the keyboard's onboard controller.  what the das does to achieve 12 key rollover is it buffers up to 12 keypresses and splits them across usb polling intervals.

[ch_123]

It may have been pointed out before, but the Model F seems to have n key rollover, when I tested it with the app posted a page or two back I was seeing 30+ when I pressed my palms into the keyboard. It also worked for all the various sample combinations listed around. The placement of Ctrl limits it's usefulness as a gaming keyboard for me though, but it's certainly useable.

[IBI]

IBI, if I remember correctly you said the true definition of N-Key as N = number of keys recognized PLUS one.  I've been "loose" with that definition since I don't think I wanna try and explain that.  In other words, technically 6-Key means you'll be fine pressing 5 keys at once in any combination, including modifiers (CTRL, SHFT mainly).  Seems that makes sense.

Well, I thought that was the definition based on many people calling the standard key Matrix 3-key rollover when it blocked on three, but in the discussion on the wiki there was a convincing argument for it being the other way around as well. I think the usage is just confused and neither are 'right' any more.

Perhaps we should start using the term 'blocking' instead of rollover, so a keyboard with 3-key blocking will have a minimum of three keys to block, wheras a keyboard with no blocking is full n-key rollover (USB being 7-key blocking at best).

Of course, the best way to do it is to provide a photograph of the membrane or circuit board, but that wouldn't be terribly practical with some keyboards - especially mechanical ones - unless the manufacturers started doing it.

[itlnstln]

Boy, for someone who whined about this being ALL irrelevant I sure am posting a lot in this thread. I think as the Geekhack community grows more and more gamers will wander in.

I still don't think it's that big of a deal. After about two or three keys, or so, it doesn't seem all that important, IMO. I think 6 keys is more than enough, but I do think it should be a minimum. I realize there are people that use keyboards in ways I don't consider.

[itlnstln]

Yeah, makes me wonder about those people buying antimicrobial keyboards - I don't want to think about what they're up to. Eww....

No, I considered that.  No need for NKRO there.

[IBI]

Good luck with that. Most people wandering in here use the term "Ghosting" because it sounds cool and many gaming keyboard marketing deptartments are starting to use it.

I think we're stuck with being a little loose on the N-key definition and not worrying about it.

That's a very negative attitude for you.

I'm just suggesting that we come up with an unambiguous set of terms so that we know what we're talking about - if others want to use wooley terminology then trying to work out what they mean will at least give us something to discuss.

[turbodog]

I can reliably get 3 keys with a rare jump to 4. Have tried all different rows/etc with same results.

[KillerQ]

Hey all,


    First post here...


    I recently learned of the key block/rollover issue that plagues most modern keyboards.  I discovered the problem when I couldn't perform certain key combinations in some of the games I play.

     I just found a keyboard this morning (had it lying around0 that was surprisingly decent.  I maxed out at 8 keys at the same time.  I tested using the random.xem test posted previously in this thread.

    I can mash WEXC, and even ASX.  Other combinations i can mash up to 8.  I can't do RTYU, which surprised me.

    It's a PS/2, Key Tronic brand with model number E03601QUS201-C.  It caught my eye because it looks just like an IBM Model M that I read a lot about here.

    Does this keyboard seem decent?  The only other issue is that the TAB key and Q key are blocked at times with the WASD cluster.


Thanks,

Matt!

[itlnstln]

Hey all,
 
 
First post here...
 
 
I recently learned of the key block/rollover issue that plagues most modern keyboards. I discovered the problem when I couldn't perform certain key combinations in some of the games I play.
 
I just found a keyboard this morning (had it lying around0 that was surprisingly decent. I maxed out at 8 keys at the same time. I tested using the random.xem test posted previously in this thread.
 
I can mash WEXC, and even ASX. Other combinations i can mash up to 8. I can't do RTYU, which surprised me.
 
It's a PS/2, Key Tronic brand with model number E03601QUS201-C. It caught my eye because it looks just like an IBM Model M that I read a lot about here.
 
Does this keyboard seem decent? The only other issue is that the TAB key and Q key are blocked at times with the WASD cluster.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Matt!

Welcome to GeekHack!
 
Keytronics are pretty good keyboards.  The rollover issues you list are pretty common amongst most keyboards.  If you are looking for true N-Key rollover, you will have to layout for higher-end 'board, though.  The Filco 'boards with NKRO (N-Key rollover) are fantastic, and if you are in the US, you can find them for great prices from elitekeyboards.com.  There are also the Topre 'boards (also available from elitekeyboards.com), but they are pretty price; they are worth it; however.

[KillerQ]

Hello again...

   Thanks for the feedback!

   Ok, I just found a Unisys KB-6923 keyboard, it weighs a ton!  I was able to have 10 keys pressed at the same time on this unit.

   It won't do  WECX though...  However, If I dont use the Q key, I can mash 10 keys areound the wasd cluster (only 3 of the 4 wasd letters, however).

Looks like another decent find!

thanks,

Matt!

[keyb_gr]

See the Wiki entry on NKRO for some examples of keyboard matrices. Looks like the Keytronic E3601 has a Cherry-esque matrix (it should accept WESDXC just fine but choke on QWE or QWER). The Unisys might have a Model-M-like matrix; then it should accept QWER or SDFJKL but refuse WESD. (A third type than one might encounter has QW block SD and CV.)

[huha]

The G80-3000LSCDE's matrix, by the way, looks like this:



It's fairly complete. Alignment of the key description layer is not perfect and I might have forgotten to label some keys, but it should give you a rough idea what to expect.

-huha

[IBI]

How can you tell which lines are used in that diagram when you've got more than two lines crossing a key (e.g. U)?

[huha]

The picture I'm working with contains the keyboard PCB as a backdrop, so it's quite easy to see. The file gets quite large if I include the backdrop (JPEG compression will totally ruin the fine lines, so it's not usable for this purpose), so I left it out. Here's a closeup:



-huha