Post by: GergWorst on Tue, 30 June 2020, 14:16:25
GMK Bread
Live in July 2020
Discord Server (https://discord.gg/sVCXj3R)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/kreeeeation/)
---
Timeline
130820 - Order placed with GMK, Deskmats ordered, Artisan Sculpt and Cable pending 1 invoice to start production
200820 - Still pending invoice from GMK. Cables ordered, Artisan Sculpt pending payment from 1 vendor
100920 - Clay Artisans are in! Fitting test video in my discord server in the #gallery channel for the set
041020 - R1 Colour Samples arrived and were rejected. Details in my discord server but tl;dr is that the mods brown looked really muddy and the alphas were way too white for the set. Am working with Louis from ILUMKB to resolve the matter and get R2 in
250321 - Long wait later, R2 Colour Samples have been approved.
140421 - Banderole completed. That should be everything needed to start production. Now we just wait I guess
---
Final Numbers
(https://postimg.cc/dL5nttdh)
Hey guys! Final Numbers now that the GB has closed! Will be posting updates as they come in! Stay tuned! Remember to join my Discord server too for regular updates!
---
After quite a long while of waiting, we’re finally here! Featuring a nice and warm brown colour way that comes from our favourite carbohydrate, GMK Bread makes everyone feel right at home.
Vendors
Group Buy will be available from July 1st to August 1st, with shipment planned for late Q1 2021
- North America: Cannon Keys (https://cannonkeys.com/products/gb-gmk-bread)
- Canada: Deskhero (https://www.deskhero.ca/search?type=article%2Cpage%2Cproduct&q=gmk*+bread*)
- Europe: MyKeyboard (https://mykeyboard.eu/catalogue/category/group-buys/gmk-bread_310/)
- Asia: ILumkb (http://hhttps://ilumkb.com/collections/groupbuy/products/gb-gmk-bread)
- Oceania/SEA: Daily Clack (https://dailyclack.com/collections/group-buys/products/gmk-bread)
—
Pricing
Prices are in USD
- Base Kit: $134.99
- Alt Alphas: $83.99
- Novelties: $42.99
- Extensions: $39.99
- Deskmats: $16.99
Other collaborations that will also be going through GB with the set!
- Custom Cables: $80
- Custom Clay Artisan Keycap: $35
- Rama Keycap: $56
Colours
Please keep in mind these images can't be 100% accurate due to camera and screen accuracy, but give an idea on the colours used
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkYfrDP1/palette.png)
Kit Renders
(https://i.postimg.cc/prwmKc75/Bread-Base.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8Jf1Dhf/Bread-40s.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yf5wQz2/why.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L7PHVgj/Mat.png)
Board Renders
Austin
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNcJJM8D/Bread-Austin-2.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MK5w7QV9/Bread-Austin-3.png)
SF65 + Deskmat
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2pDWx7b/Bread-SF65.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjd4DGK8/Bread-SF65-3.png)
Evolv by NathanAlphasMan
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGgY59vZ/Evolv-1.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyD3922P/Evolv-2.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/283f9qf5/Evolv-3.png)
Collaborations
We have chosen collaborations that help accentuate the theme, and bring out the cuteness and playfulness of the set
Shoutout to reeeyouuu for helping me with contacts and design
Rama Keycap
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmJZM19v/RAMA-R1-BREAD-R-1.jpg)
Custom Cables by Fatboychard
Custom Clay Keycaps Sculpts from valubahloo
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kr7qjwV/untitled-1.jpg)
Signature
Support the set by displaying a signature on your forum profile
[/list][/list][/list]
Code: [Select]
[img width=400 height=120]https://i.postimg.cc/fbmJ0WC4/gmk-bread-sig.png[/img](https://i.postimg.cc/fbmJ0WC4/gmk-bread-sig.png)Special Thanks
Thanks to NathanAlphaMan, Ulliam, DaleSnail, Louis for helping me with the set. Thank you also to Swishy for telling me to start afresh when my first keyset was bad, and everyone from the KeycapDesigner discord and my own discord server. Never thought that I could ever run my own keyset and get all the way here.
---
RIP Alt Alphas
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvfKKgVD/Bread-Alt.png)
Rukia
(https://i.postimg.cc/5280W0Cv/Bread-Rukia-1.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Qzj3Cd5/Bread-Rukia-2.png)
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 30 June 2020, 14:48:16
Post by: NoPunIn10Did on Tue, 30 June 2020, 14:58:21
Post by: GergWorst on Tue, 30 June 2020, 15:38:20
Might want to check the bbcode in your post. Some of the images are being squished to sizes that aren't proportional to their original dimensions. Alt Alphas is the most noticeable one.
Fixed.
Thanks for the catch!
Post by: GalaxyDynamite on Tue, 30 June 2020, 16:26:39
THIS IS THE ONE KEYCAP SET IVE BEEN WAITING FOR SINCE I STARTED IN THIS HOBBY MANY MONTHS AGO!!!!
TIME TO GET THAT BREAD BABY
Post by: GergWorst on Wed, 01 July 2020, 07:58:55
OMG FINALLY!!!!!
THIS IS THE ONE KEYCAP SET IVE BEEN WAITING FOR SINCE I STARTED IN THIS HOBBY MANY MONTHS AGO!!!!
TIME TO GET THAT BREAD BABY
Haha thank you for your support! Cheers!
Post by: sebkow on Wed, 01 July 2020, 08:03:33
Post by: ilouis_07 on Wed, 01 July 2020, 10:21:29
Post by: upas on Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:38:40
Post by: Nudd on Thu, 02 July 2020, 03:24:53
Post by: GergWorst on Thu, 02 July 2020, 12:56:45
We seem to be doing fine for base and novelties, though extensions and alt alphas may need a bit of help! Will be doing quite a bit of publicity for those kits in the coming future, but we have a bit of time now! Expect more renders soon and do follow @kreeeeation on Instagram! Also, do support Fatboychard and his custom cable for the set!
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R0m5M37/Day-1.png)
Post by: GalaxyDynamite on Thu, 02 July 2020, 14:35:23
Post by: megaforce on Thu, 02 July 2020, 21:49:36
Post by: solomonshv on Sun, 05 July 2020, 21:28:01
this is my already bought or will buy list:
ePBT classic Cyrillic
GMK Modern Dolch 2
GMK Bread
GMK hammerhead (light)
GMK Sloth
GMK Sumi
GMK Bento R2
Post by: GergWorst on Sun, 05 July 2020, 22:54:08
way too damn many good sets this summer
this is my already bought or will buy list:
ePBT classic Cyrillic
GMK Modern Dolch 2
GMK Bread
GMK hammerhead (light)
GMK Sloth
GMK Sumi
GMK Bento R2
Thank you for your support!!
Post by: PM_ME_THE_SLOTHS on Mon, 06 July 2020, 03:56:14
way too damn many good sets this summer
this is my already bought or will buy list:
ePBT classic Cyrillic
GMK Modern Dolch 2
GMK Bread
GMK hammerhead (light)
GMK Sloth
GMK Sumi
GMK Bento R2
I'm in for bread, but you just made my day with that sloth set! That's 100% endgame for me.
Post by: Alkahzane on Mon, 06 July 2020, 06:40:28
Post by: GergWorst on Mon, 06 July 2020, 11:57:21
Is the cable exclusive to canon keys? Cannot find it on the EU store
Seems that only EU is missing it, unfortunately. It's available every where else.
Post by: Captain Lunch on Sun, 12 July 2020, 03:21:02
Post by: GalaxyDynamite on Sun, 12 July 2020, 11:46:26
Post by: amperrsand on Wed, 15 July 2020, 15:35:26
Post by: rmendis on Tue, 21 July 2020, 23:04:30
Post by: yhs on Wed, 22 July 2020, 10:50:42
Post by: solomonshv on Fri, 24 July 2020, 00:32:06
Thank you for your support!!
no, thank YOU for the amazing set! bought base and novelties, can't wait to get them. i almost never buy artisans, but still thinking about adding the rama cap.
I'm in for bread, but you just made my day with that sloth set! That's 100% endgame for me.
no problem man, glad i was able to point you in the right direction. bread and sloth were *kinda* close, in the sense that they are a similar design (light brown/dark brown). at first i was deciding between the two, but then just decided to get both. if i have to take so much time deciding between two sets, than it's because they are both good and both deserve a buy.
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:53:22
And simple carbohydrates.
But seriously: I've been waiting for a dual-tone brown/tan set forever.
I have a set of vintage cherry caps that are almost this color, but the mods are... definitely not standard, so it only fits on an ortho board that I never use because I can't type ortho.
Post by: GalaxyDynamite on Sat, 25 July 2020, 20:15:07
no problem man, glad i was able to point you in the right direction. bread and sloth were *kinda* close, in the sense that they are a similar design (light brown/dark brown). at first i was deciding between the two, but then just decided to get both. if i have to take so much time deciding between two sets, than it's because they are both good and both deserve a buy.
[/quote]
I'm there with you but I think bread would look the best on a black case and I think sloth would look SO moneybags on a blue case
Post by: Anthixious on Sat, 25 July 2020, 23:42:02
#DealBreaker
:(
Post by: GergWorst on Sun, 26 July 2020, 23:14:58
Would love to own a set of these, however I got here after Alt. Alphas were no longer a thing.
#DealBreaker
:(
:( Sorry man, out toaster broke down and we couldn't get it back on. We'll have to settle for regular white bread this time.
Post by: GalaxyDynamite on Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:14:44
Post by: amperrsand on Mon, 27 July 2020, 23:19:43
Post by: Anthixious on Mon, 27 July 2020, 23:35:42
I'd say maybe a R2 could have toasted alphas along with other breads, like whole wheat.
Now this is big brain stuff ;D, I'd be down for this.
Post by: Leyva on Tue, 28 July 2020, 00:24:45
Post by: solomonshv on Mon, 07 June 2021, 21:49:41
Would love to own a set of these, however I got here after Alt. Alphas were no longer a thing.
#DealBreaker
:(
i wish there was an alt set with the alt alphas. buying a base set and an alt alpha only set is just crazy expensive. at that point you're paying $210 for a base set. i still got a base set, but would have preferred a set with the alt alphas.
Post by: sebkow on Thu, 08 July 2021, 19:03:56
Post by: solomonshv on Mon, 15 November 2021, 16:15:00
Post by: lecorsair on Mon, 15 November 2021, 19:50:00
Post by: kiyoboard on Mon, 15 November 2021, 19:53:40
Post by: solomonshv on Mon, 15 November 2021, 22:02:41
Having been traumatized by GMK Plum, I do feel sorry for you if that is indeed the true colours and not aggressive post-processing by your phone.
photographed on an iphone 13 pro. the pictures look accurate to me. here is another picture taken directly under a chandelier with 8x 6500K LED lightbulbs. brass pen rail in picture for reference because there is a brass pen rail in the render. i don't think there is any way to make it look less yellow.
EDIT: link to unedited/uncompressed HEIC photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gpsYMqQYPaGvmXtR1FwbtOuoDzsVTZRB/view?usp=sharing
i don't hate it, it's just not what i was hoping for. I will still keep it.
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 15 November 2021, 22:35:27
found a different pic on reddit and it looks OK
a little more yellow than the render but this seems not far off
Post by: solomonshv on Mon, 15 November 2021, 23:17:10
Show Image(https://i.redd.it/dgb5dljc07w71.jpg)
found a different pic on reddit and it looks OK
a little more yellow than the render but this seems not far off
that's a cool picture, but it doesn't look anything like that in person. the keys are yellow. here are enter keys from analog dreams, Taro and (for the memes) Olivia++ in frame for reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/KSuXDVd.jpg)
Post by: solomonshv on Mon, 15 November 2021, 23:26:27
(https://i.imgur.com/SN5Ttsx.jpg)
Post by: ben56k on Tue, 16 November 2021, 04:56:36
I was expecting bread not a brioche. (brioche is good but I daily bread and really more bread than brioche sadly)
Post by: clickyblob on Tue, 16 November 2021, 11:08:14
actually i got something even better to compare the caps to, a Noctua NF A12 fan. i actually expected bread to look like a noctua fan and made jokes about it before.I was waiting for my local vendor to start selling extras for this set... but looks like I need to reconsiderShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SN5Ttsx.jpg)
Thanks for the honest review and pictures!
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 16 November 2021, 11:09:35
Post by: 1017BirckenThot on Tue, 16 November 2021, 11:24:31
Post by: IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES on Tue, 16 November 2021, 13:32:23
no problem, it's just GMK Banana Bread now.
I thought Buttered Pumpernickel, but I’m holding out till I see pics normalized to your bathroom lighting
Post by: lecorsair on Tue, 16 November 2021, 14:15:30
Post by: solomonshv on Tue, 16 November 2021, 16:59:27
no problem, it's just GMK Banana Bread now.
I thought Buttered Pumpernickel, but I’m holding out till I see pics normalized to your bathroom lighting
i just took a peak at the designer's discord. turns out that they changed the color to something completely different between R1 (RAL 1015) and R2 (RAL 1014) of color matching. so, no amount of "normalizing to your bathroom lighting" is going to fix it. we got screwed.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/722841996464750612/903434428007710740/image0-4.jpg)
Post by: rmendis on Tue, 16 November 2021, 18:25:00
no problem, it's just GMK Banana Bread now.
I thought Buttered Pumpernickel, but I’m holding out till I see pics normalized to your bathroom lighting
i just took a peak at the designer's discord. turns out that they changed the color to something completely different between R1 (RAL 1015) and R2 (RAL 1014) of color matching. so, no amount of "normalizing to your bathroom lighting" is going to fix it. we got screwed.Show Image(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/722841996464750612/903434428007710740/image0-4.jpg)
This nonsense of making critical updates on discord after running a IC and GB on Geekhack is pretty fk*d up
Post by: Pach on Tue, 16 November 2021, 22:50:46
expand
More
(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discord
(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008
(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little light
(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadays
(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yay
(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yay
(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015
(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha color
(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guess
(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for reference
(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this point
(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh ok
(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
Post by: kiyoboard on Tue, 16 November 2021, 23:09:32
someone help me understand what happened because i sure dont
expandMoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discordShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little lightShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadaysShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha colorShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guessShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for referenceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this pointShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh okShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
Thanks for the summary. I think what is going on is that there will be a GB for GMK Bread Light :p Jokes aside, even though I like the colors as I mentioned, I don't think it is acceptable to change colors during the GB without getting approval from literally every customer in my opinion(which is of course impossible). I wonder how none of the vendors weren't aware of this. I am not sure which one is worse;
them being aware and not doing anything about it, or them not following up about color matching on something they sold, so they weren't aware at all :/ Hopefully we can get an explanation at least on what went wrong.
Post by: Pach on Wed, 17 November 2021, 00:03:41
someone help me understand what happened because i sure dont
expandMoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discordShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little lightShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadaysShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha colorShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guessShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for referenceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this pointShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh okShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
Thanks for the summary. I think what is going on is that there will be a GB for GMK Bread Light :p Jokes aside, even though I like the colors as I mentioned, I don't think it is acceptable to change colors during the GB without getting approval from literally every customer in my opinion(which is of course impossible). I wonder how none of the vendors weren't aware of this. I am not sure which one is worse;
them being aware and not doing anything about it, or them not following up about color matching on something they sold, so they weren't aware at all :/ Hopefully we can get an explanation at least on what went wrong.
an actual educated guess i can make from reading the server again is that maybe the designer just threw the concepts of how color works out the window and decided to match colors to the digital renders after round 1 or something, but i have no idea why he was comparing that first sample to a pantone. maybe he decided to do it even earlier. you should be matching actual color to actual color, not to a digital recreation of a color with varied artificial lighting on an inaccurate computer monitor
Post by: clickyblob on Wed, 17 November 2021, 00:32:22
Post by: sh_xguitar on Wed, 17 November 2021, 04:21:52
Anyway, I don't know why maker and vendor didn't think those comment during color matching is important? I do think ilumkb (and other vendor or maker that won't do proper color match) shouldn't do color matching decision anyway. This community needs professionals to do the job done
---------
R1 is better than R2, but still not enough
They had it right during R1 in my opinion
Post by: ben56k on Wed, 17 November 2021, 04:42:48
Post by: IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES on Wed, 17 November 2021, 07:04:05
no problem, it's just GMK Banana Bread now.
I thought Buttered Pumpernickel, but I’m holding out till I see pics normalized to your bathroom lighting
i just took a peak at the designer's discord. turns out that they changed the color to something completely different between R1 (RAL 1015) and R2 (RAL 1014) of color matching. so, no amount of "normalizing to your bathroom lighting" is going to fix it. we got screwed.Show Image(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/722841996464750612/903434428007710740/image0-4.jpg)
Sorry-was said in jest as pixelpushers blue sets medley photographed in different lighting is my go to for comparing blue colors. Your shots have been great and I appreciate laying out well known sets to compare to.
Post by: dgneo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 08:19:20
Post by: Reebes on Wed, 17 November 2021, 08:21:20
someone help me understand what happened because i sure dont
expandMoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discordShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little lightShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadaysShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha colorShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guessShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for referenceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this pointShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh okShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
Thanks for going back and finding all this! Its amazing how after so much information I still have no clue as to what happened. Laughed a couple times though.
Post by: dgneo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 08:45:19
Truly one of the greatest things I've seen
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 17 November 2021, 08:54:59
no problem, it's just GMK Banana Bread now.
I thought Buttered Pumpernickel, but I’m holding out till I see pics normalized to your bathroom lighting
i just took a peak at the designer's discord. turns out that they changed the color to something completely different between R1 (RAL 1015) and R2 (RAL 1014) of color matching. so, no amount of "normalizing to your bathroom lighting" is going to fix it. we got screwed.Show Image(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/722841996464750612/903434428007710740/image0-4.jpg)
Sorry-was said in jest as pixelpushers blue sets medley photographed in different lighting is my go to for comparing blue colors. Your shots have been great and I appreciate laying out well known sets to compare to.
Sadly the bathroom is taken for a while since my kitchen has been ripped out. Currently using the bathroom to wash dishes...
Post by: Eastji on Wed, 17 November 2021, 09:39:15
Post by: StingrayShuffle on Wed, 17 November 2021, 09:58:17
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 17 November 2021, 10:49:32
someone help me understand what happened because i sure dont
expandMoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discordShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little lightShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadaysShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha colorShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guessShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for referenceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this pointShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh okShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
i really don't feel like giving the colormatching lecture again but this is basically a master class in how not to do it. the screenshot of them holding it up to the screen is the funniest **** i've ever seen.
guess this set's not gonna be a keeper when mine shows up
Post by: Ahngel on Wed, 17 November 2021, 10:54:08
:sadge:
Post by: MoltenKhor on Wed, 17 November 2021, 10:57:06
About the mods, i'd ask GMK atleast 2 minutes less in the oven since the crust may be too much cooked.
image for reference.
(https://blog.giallozafferano.it/loti64/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/IMG_0662-1.jpg)
Now i'l go back to my pane e mortadella
Post by: rmendis on Wed, 17 November 2021, 11:55:25
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
I get color matching is hard, and sometimes these things happen. However, GB runners who don't share important updates and at least make people aware of crucial discussions on geekhack, should not be permitted to run GBs here.
Post by: Pach on Wed, 17 November 2021, 12:18:34
everyone's monitor views renders differently so it's best to stick with the actual color than to go off to one extreme based on people's opinions of sample pictures that will never compare as well as real life, especially if the colors arent calibrated in the picture
idr who did it (maybe it was gmk dracc) but they took a picture of the same exact keycap like i did below and provided a long explanation of how pictures suck
More
(https://i.imgur.com/W8DATL3.jpg)
i do feel sympathy for the designer and wish him well through this misfortune, but the fault is still on him
Post by: The0rigina1 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 12:55:03
If people don't like this, the runner can always make GMK Bread lite right? ;D
Post by: Kokaloo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 13:00:04
just another day in keyboards! :thumb:
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:09:43
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:12:31
oh no yet another example of people not being held responsible for their lack of accountability when handling thousands of the communities dollars due to the normalcy of group buys as a way to deliver product!
just another day in keyboards! :thumb:
What would holding them responsible look like to you? No one is defending this guy. At this point, there's nothing to do except wait. They haven't tried to start another group buy since this started, so there's no future sales to prevent.
Post by: LightningXI on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:18:16
someone help me understand what happened because i sure dont
expandMoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/mJKYi7Z.png)
first mistake here is probably letting the community help you color match off of pictures
im not gonna post every instance of this because its just throughout the whole thing and you can just look in the discordShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/RAd4EPb.png)
aw man looks like the brown turned out a little light. wait thats not ral 8008Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/B24ozHm.png)
aw man looks like the beige turned out a little lightShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/4z03MYS.png)
i didnt know gmk did this nowadaysShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/h6btw0v.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/oiS2fNa.png)
yayShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/0nqEQqS.png)
wait thats not ral 1015Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/q4WbG7V.jpg)
my colors for comparison. so basically after measuring the ral 1015 sample with a spectrometer to get valid data to send over to gmk so they could get allowed an r2 sample of ral 1015 somewhere in between the world imploded and pantone 155c is now the alpha colorShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Divcxvf.png)
was the first sample from the second picture ral 8008 or pantone 1545c
and if it was 8008 why was he comparing it to 1545c
i dont think the designer ever actually said he changed colors anywhere nor were the final colors ever said by him so nobody knows i guessShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/LnWnHMZ.jpg)
comparison for referenceShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/BbIbB1u.png)
and if it was 1545c then i guess gmk just sucked at matching it the first time or some wild lighting
...or is it actually 8008 -> 1545c? or even a rumored 8008 -> 8011? or 1545c to 8011 because hell if i know at this pointShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/SLOOmep.png)
uh okShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/Bak53Gi.png)
well now we know why
so basically after reading a lot of stuff in the discord server ive come to a logical conclusion that i still have no idea what is going on
LMAO. No wonder that, when I unboxed my set last night, the alphas looked more yellow than they should be relative to the cited RAL1015 color on the IC/GB pages!
So the designer casually went off to his small shelter in Discord, changed the colors mid-GB 'color-matching' from a RAL to a Pantone that nobody else in the GB knew about, aside from the ... 10-20(?) people who probably were present in the Discord server at the time, and decided it would be good for the hundreds of others who purchased the set.
To be honest, I'm fine with the new brown on the modifiers, but the alphas are so far off from what was marketed. A slap to the face to change it this much and not tell everyone (you could also just tell your vendors to send an email update/blast -- or post here???)
No updates on geekhack either during that entire time. Zero information about VITAL changes to the colors of the set. Way to kill any credibility as a 'budding' maker.
Also, agreed with dg, that photo with the brown sample and the monitor screen absolutely killed me LMFAO
Post by: HoodrowThrillson on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:38:49
LMAOShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/8UslIF8.jpg)
Truly one of the greatest things I've seen
Post by: Pach on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:42:28
oh no yet another example of people not being held responsible for their lack of accountability when handling thousands of the communities dollars due to the normalcy of group buys as a way to deliver product!
just another day in keyboards! :thumb:
oh no yet another example of people not being held responsible for their lack of accountability when handling thousands of the communities dollars due to the normalcy of group buys as a way to deliver product!
just another day in keyboards! :thumb:
What would holding them responsible look like to you? No one is defending this guy. At this point, there's nothing to do except wait. They haven't tried to start another group buy since this started, so there's no future sales to prevent.
this group buy made him lose credibility and trust so no one really has to hold him responsible because it's already affected his status
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 17 November 2021, 14:45:22
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/8UslIF8.jpg)
Truly one of the greatest things I've seen
I'm done now, I can quit the hobby.
Post by: Kokaloo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 15:15:39
oh no yet another example of people not being held responsible for their lack of accountability when handling thousands of the communities dollars due to the normalcy of group buys as a way to deliver product!
just another day in keyboards! :thumb:
What would holding them responsible look like to you? No one is defending this guy. At this point, there's nothing to do except wait. They haven't tried to start another group buy since this started, so there's no future sales to prevent.
The dispute window for PayPal has passed, as it always does to GMK GBs so nobody can reliably get their money back. Holding them responsible would be some way of assuring that in the year+ they have to get the promised product out that GBs seemingly have no power to do. We have seen hundreds of successful group buys, and enough of them have fallen far under expectations or not delivered at all to allow people to be able to fail even once. There is more than enough time, eyes, and money to make sure stuff gets to people as advertised, but somehow it still ends up not happening.
How did Cannonkeys and ilumkb, two veteran vendors, allow this to happen? Why are they willing and able to be so hands off?
Post by: solomonshv on Wed, 17 November 2021, 15:25:17
Having said that, what the f*** happened at ilumkb??? They didn’t like GMKs matching to one color, so the solution was to manufacture a DIFFERENT color they couldn’t fully match either?
The lesson here is don’t buy any product, keycaps or otherwise, where ilumkb is the main vendor. They obviously have no issue with selling one thing but delivering another. I’d avoid them altogether if possible.
Post by: megaforce on Wed, 17 November 2021, 16:18:00
Post by: LaserCrafter on Wed, 17 November 2021, 16:20:16
Post by: slg1993 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 16:25:30
Post by: zian_ on Wed, 17 November 2021, 17:17:42
Post by: MoarCoffeePlzzz on Wed, 17 November 2021, 17:31:11
Post by: yoshifan151 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 17:52:27
Post by: Reebes on Wed, 17 November 2021, 17:58:38
You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
Post by: MoarCoffeePlzzz on Wed, 17 November 2021, 19:00:15
You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
I totally understand where you are coming from and maybe I didn't communicate clearly. There were 24 posts made in this GH thread in between first day launch and people showing photos of their kits in-hand. None of which I can see mentioned changes -- only an edited first post that had the mention of color changes in Discord tucked away. If you use this platform to promote your product you need to make updates happen on this platform. I love providing updates (new posts) on a regular basis regardless of good, bad, or boring and there are lots of people that do this. If you don't have prior business or sales experience the least you can do is update people along the way and check in with your customers.
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 17 November 2021, 19:03:28
Def a fan of geekhack threads being updated in a timely manner. It's really the only place easily accessible to all those involved.You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
I totally understand where you are coming from and maybe I didn't communicate clearly. There were 24 posts made in this GH thread in between first day launch and people showing photos of their kits in-hand. None of which I can see mentioned changes -- only an edited first post that had the mention of color changes in Discord tucked away. If you use this platform to promote your product you need to make updates happen on this platform. If you don't have prior business or sales experience the least you can do is update people along the way and check in with your customers.
Post by: solomonshv on Wed, 17 November 2021, 19:43:16
You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
Note that he said, “I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills.” Ilumkb was collecting the money, they placed this order, they knew the color was changed and saw the color chips. They even put their logo on the box. It was their job to make this doesn’t happen. We trust vendors to overlook the manufacturing because we can’t. If this guy was running the GB himself like in the old days, I wouldn’t have bought it. Not even if it was $20. Let alone $200. I was under the impression that someone with experience was also at the wheel.
Post by: kiyoboard on Wed, 17 November 2021, 20:29:38
You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
Note that he said, “I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills.” Ilumkb was collecting the money, they placed this order, they knew the color was changed and saw the color chips. They even put their logo on the box. It was their job to make this doesn’t happen. We trust vendors to overlook the manufacturing because we can’t. If this guy was running the GB himself like in the old days, I wouldn’t have bought it. Not even if it was $20. Let alone $200. I was under the impression that someone with experience was also at the wheel.
Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this. Maybe I am wrong, but at least in my mind, vendors' responsibility is making sure everything is going on track, everything is going as smoothly as possible and designers that they work with are kept in check. Otherwise if they are not going to look over the production, what is to stop someone to do the ultimate prank and totally change the colors to something not even close just for some fun.
Also as customers, we give our money to vendors. I think at that stage all the customer complaints should go to vendor. As a customer, I don't think I have to know who is the designer etc. I might be someone who is not following geekhack/discord at all, and just buying a keycap for my OEM Razor keyboard.
Regardless of what I think, I feel like at this stage there should be some clear definition on who is responsible of what, and when something like this happens, what are customers' options. Based on the previous similar events, I feel like everyone is going to defer the responsibility now, and people are just going to say "if you don't like it, sell it for more than what you paid for' (which is totally not the point).
(Note that I am saying all this even though I am fairly happy with the colors and intending on keeping the set)
Post by: 7h3of7 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 20:42:49
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/8UslIF8.jpg)
Truly one of the greatest things I've seen
This is my favorite picture of all time from this hobby.
Post by: Bachoo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 20:44:43
This is a modern day masterpiece, I've never seen anything so bold, he is truely the martyr of our time, but we are too blinded by our own rage and hubris to see this individual's guiding light. We are lost as a community.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/8UslIF8.jpg)
Truly one of the greatest things I've seen
Post by: treeleaf64 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 21:14:40
Accidental judge
Wtf is the color matching? ?? You realize people are waiting 1+ year to get this product and you are cutting corner like this?
[attachimg=1]
Post by: solomonshv on Wed, 17 November 2021, 21:36:10
Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
Post by: Pach on Wed, 17 November 2021, 21:38:26
yeah ilumkb helped the designer check the r2 samples, but apparently they didn't realize that it's not a good idea to change to a completely different colorNot sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
Post by: Pach on Wed, 17 November 2021, 21:39:46
nah the ~10 people in the server at the time were unsatisfied with the original colors (as well as the designer a bit) so the designer decided to not accept the samples, talked to a bunch of experts, spend time to meet personally with the ilkb guy and ends up changing colors completely to try to satisfy more people. its the complete opposite of cutting corners but in the complete wrong direction
Accidental judge
Wtf is the color matching? ?? You realize people are waiting 1+ year to get this product and you are cutting corner like this?
(Attachment Link)
also just speculation who knows
Post by: kiyoboard on Wed, 17 November 2021, 21:56:50
Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
I was basically agreeing with you, but way to make a conversation with people I guess... That said, them being lead vendor doesn't defer responsibility from other vendors in my opinion. I think they still have the responsibility to follow the production for something they sell on their page and profit from. Like if I was a "proxy" vendor, I would occasionally send emails to "lead" vendor to get updates on what is going on. Again, since there is no clear definition on who is responsible from what, that is just my opinion. Also, of course we don't know what exactly happened, and maybe the other vendors asked about update and ilumkb said everything is going according to plan.
Also regarding to supporting vendors we trust, I really hope that in the future we can get multiple regional vendors. I feel like that can give option to customers to pick vendor they want rather than missing out a set they want, and having competition between vendors can only be a good thing for customers as each of them tries to make their service better than the others.
Post by: treeleaf64 on Wed, 17 November 2021, 22:00:48
nah the ~10 people in the server at the time were unsatisfied with the original colors (as well as the designer a bit) so the designer decided to not accept the samples, talked to a bunch of experts, spend time to meet personally with the ilkb guy and ends up changing colors completely to try to satisfy more people. its the complete opposite of cutting corners but in the complete wrong direction
also just speculation who knows
This is after the group buy right? not sure why this was not made public until recently
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 17 November 2021, 22:10:26
Dunno if this makes sense. If Samsung ships buggy phones, is Best Buy responsible for the phones being buggy? No. Best Buy will take returns and refund money, or the users can decide to wait for an update.Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
I was basically agreeing with you, but way to make a conversation with people I guess... That said, them being lead vendor doesn't defer responsibility from other vendors in my opinion. I think they still have the responsibility to follow the production for something they sell on their page and profit from. Like if I was a "proxy" vendor, I would occasionally send emails to "lead" vendor to get updates on what is going on. Again, since there is no clear definition on who is responsible from what, that is just my opinion. Also, of course we don't know what exactly happened, and maybe the other vendors asked about update and ilumkb said everything is going according to plan.
Also regarding to supporting vendors we trust, I really hope that in the future we can get multiple regional vendors. I feel like that can give option to customers to pick vendor they want rather than missing out a set they want, and having competition between vendors can only be a good thing for customers as each of them tries to make their service better than the others.
This is the exact same case here. Vendors not involved in the GB submission really have no say in the color matching process. They've already taken orders and submitted them. If customers don't like the final product they can return it for a refund, but it's not the 4th party vendors' responsibility to hold hands for the process. Most have a laundry list of their own stuff they're submitting and working on. The hope is that the vendor who handled the submission will push the designer and GMK to get it right. I have to imagine most designers and 3rd party vendors would get frustrated with 5 other regional vendors constantly telling them what they want, especially if those regional vendors don't agree with each other. Then what?
And the reason sales aren't spread across multiple vendors in the same region is logistics. It'd be a nightmare and costly to not bulk ship sets to a final destination. Not to mention the moq needed for production might be so small at some to not even be worth the time. Plus it's another product launch to handle, for every keyset instead of every 4th or 5th as vendors are rotated around now.
Post by: MIGHTY CHICKEN on Wed, 17 November 2021, 22:34:47
Post by: kiyoboard on Wed, 17 November 2021, 22:53:54
Dunno if this makes sense. If Samsung ships buggy phones, is Best Buy responsible for the phones being buggy? No. Best Buy will take returns and refund money, or the users can decide to wait for an update.Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
I was basically agreeing with you, but way to make a conversation with people I guess... That said, them being lead vendor doesn't defer responsibility from other vendors in my opinion. I think they still have the responsibility to follow the production for something they sell on their page and profit from. Like if I was a "proxy" vendor, I would occasionally send emails to "lead" vendor to get updates on what is going on. Again, since there is no clear definition on who is responsible from what, that is just my opinion. Also, of course we don't know what exactly happened, and maybe the other vendors asked about update and ilumkb said everything is going according to plan.
Also regarding to supporting vendors we trust, I really hope that in the future we can get multiple regional vendors. I feel like that can give option to customers to pick vendor they want rather than missing out a set they want, and having competition between vendors can only be a good thing for customers as each of them tries to make their service better than the others.
This is the exact same case here. Vendors not involved in the GB submission really have no say in the color matching process. They've already taken orders and submitted them. If customers don't like the final product they can return it for a refund, but it's not the 4th party vendors' responsibility to hold hands for the process. Most have a laundry list of their own stuff they're submitting and working on. The hope is that the vendor who handled the submission will push the designer and GMK to get it right. I have to imagine most designers and 3rd party vendors would get frustrated with 5 other regional vendors constantly telling them what they want, especially if those regional vendors don't agree with each other. Then what?
And the reason sales aren't spread across multiple vendors in the same region is logistics. It'd be a nightmare and costly to not bulk ship sets to a final destination. Not to mention the moq needed for production might be so small at some to not even be worth the time. Plus it's another product launch to handle, for every keyset instead of every 4th or 5th as vendors are rotated around now.
I think in that case Best Buy wouldn't be responsible other than taking your buggy phone and sending it to Samsung, but I am not sure if that analogy exactly applies here. First of all, I think only Drop provides refunds for gb keysets if you are not happy with them, and even they require the keyset to be unopened. For GMK keycaps I feel like it is more in the lines that Best Buy(Vendor) works with some product designer(keycap designer) to design a phone(gmk set), with the plans to order that design from Samsung(GMK) after getting money from customers. Then IKEA(another vendor) says that they want to sell it in the EU with their profit of course. In that case, I would expect IKEA managers to occasionally check in on what is going on with their new Samsung phone design. Not because they have a say on the final decision necessarily, but firstly to be able to update their customers properly and secondly if there is a very wrong decision like this, they can be aware of it early on, try to convince Best Buy to change their decision, or again inform the customers about the change with potential solutions. And you can't expect the customer in EU to try to reach Best Buy, Samsun or the designer to complain. Similarly, you don't complain to Qualcomm if Samsung's CPU breaks. So, I think your analogy would be fine if GMK was hiring designers, producing keycaps and then sending them to vendors for them to sell with their profit.
Since we(people in geekhack) are passionate about this hobby and interested in the production side of the things as well, we know about who is the lead vendor, what color matching process is, who produces the keycaps etc. But in reality, a customer who buys a product doesn't need to know about these.
I understand other vendors also having their stuff to work on, but my whole point is that this is also something should be in their lists to work on. Again, this is just my view due to there not being a clear definition on who does what. If there is some unspoken agreement between vendors to make it so that all responsibility lies on the lead vendor, then it is fine, but maybe should be mentioned more clearly to the customers. For example, in this case I wasn't even aware that ilumkb is the lead vendor until now. As I mentioned in the example above, I don't expect all the vendors to create a council and discuss decisions. But, as a customer and enjoyer of this hobby, we get curious about color matching process and ask about how it is going etc. Don't you think it is common sense for a vendor who took bunch of money from people to follow up on what is going on with it as well if the lead vendor hasn't already provided that info?
Also, I understand the challenges with having multiple vendors, not expecting it to happen any time soon if ever, but doesn't change the fact that it would benefit customers.
Post by: Kokaloo on Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:15:14
Dunno if this makes sense. If Samsung ships buggy phones, is Best Buy responsible for the phones being buggy? No. Best Buy will take returns and refund money, or the users can decide to wait for an update.
This is the exact same case here. Vendors not involved in the GB submission really have no say in the color matching process. They've already taken orders and submitted them. If customers don't like the final product they can return it for a refund, but it's not the 4th party vendors' responsibility to hold hands for the process. Most have a laundry list of their own stuff they're submitting and working on. The hope is that the vendor who handled the submission will push the designer and GMK to get it right. I have to imagine most designers and 3rd party vendors would get frustrated with 5 other regional vendors constantly telling them what they want, especially if those regional vendors don't agree with each other. Then what?
And the reason sales aren't spread across multiple vendors in the same region is logistics. It'd be a nightmare and costly to not bulk ship sets to a final destination. Not to mention the moq needed for production might be so small at some to not even be worth the time. Plus it's another product launch to handle, for every keyset instead of every 4th or 5th as vendors are rotated around now.
Aren't/weren't you affiliated with Cannonkeys?
Post by: DukeEsquire on Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:22:23
Dunno if this makes sense. If Samsung ships buggy phones, is Best Buy responsible for the phones being buggy? No. Best Buy will take returns and refund money, or the users can decide to wait for an update.Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.
ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.
I was basically agreeing with you, but way to make a conversation with people I guess... That said, them being lead vendor doesn't defer responsibility from other vendors in my opinion. I think they still have the responsibility to follow the production for something they sell on their page and profit from. Like if I was a "proxy" vendor, I would occasionally send emails to "lead" vendor to get updates on what is going on. Again, since there is no clear definition on who is responsible from what, that is just my opinion. Also, of course we don't know what exactly happened, and maybe the other vendors asked about update and ilumkb said everything is going according to plan.
Also regarding to supporting vendors we trust, I really hope that in the future we can get multiple regional vendors. I feel like that can give option to customers to pick vendor they want rather than missing out a set they want, and having competition between vendors can only be a good thing for customers as each of them tries to make their service better than the others.
This is the exact same case here. Vendors not involved in the GB submission really have no say in the color matching process. They've already taken orders and submitted them. If customers don't like the final product they can return it for a refund, but it's not the 4th party vendors' responsibility to hold hands for the process. Most have a laundry list of their own stuff they're submitting and working on. The hope is that the vendor who handled the submission will push the designer and GMK to get it right. I have to imagine most designers and 3rd party vendors would get frustrated with 5 other regional vendors constantly telling them what they want, especially if those regional vendors don't agree with each other. Then what?
And the reason sales aren't spread across multiple vendors in the same region is logistics. It'd be a nightmare and costly to not bulk ship sets to a final destination. Not to mention the moq needed for production might be so small at some to not even be worth the time. Plus it's another product launch to handle, for every keyset instead of every 4th or 5th as vendors are rotated around now.
Are the vendors offering returns and refunds?
Frankly, I don't have any sympathy for "simply" being a proxy. They are vendors. They have a responsibility for the products they sell.
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:47:16
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Post by: MIGHTY CHICKEN on Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:54:20
I know CK will.People buy GMK because they know their quality, this isn't just an issue of oh **** renders didn't turn out right, this is an issue of the colors literally changing without the most transparency. I'm sure many people would much rather go for another round or two than the color being completely different from what they expected.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:59:11
I know CK will.People buy GMK because they know their quality, this isn't just an issue of oh **** renders didn't turn out right, this is an issue of the colors literally changing without the most transparency. I'm sure many people would much rather go for another round or two than the color being completely different from what they expected.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Oh, and I totally agree. And it was up to those involved in the color matching process, the designer and submitting vendor, to correct those mistakes. Clearly they looked at it, decided they didn't care, and moved forward. I do think transparency in who was the submitting vendor would be nice for all keyset GBs though. Or a section detailing who will be involved in the color matching process. Clearly it should be more transparent than a poll of 10 people on a discord server.
I mean the discord decision making was just a mess. It's unfortunate all runners don't do updates on Geekhack. It's a real annoyance.
Post by: kiyoboard on Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:08:11
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:14:51
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.
Well sure, but then you miss out on regional vendors. Then you end up paying international shipping and import fees. The reason for regional vendors is not because everyone wants to get rich (bread wasn't a ground breaking set as far as numbers go). It's because people prefer to purchase items from a vendor in their region.
But I agree, they should be informed. Did ilumkb inform the other vendors that the colors were off, I don't know, but I'd guess probably not. Did Gerg, that most definitely seems like a no. And again, if your unhappy with the keyset, you should contact the support of the vendor for a return. Most vendors will at least try to make things right. In previous sets where color matching was off (PnC for example), many people were OK with the set they received, even if it didn't match renders, and returns were sold out as extras, or were used for missing keys, etc.
I'm not putting customer nor vendor on a pedestal. Just trying to explain that in the world of keyset GBs it's not as simple as "vendors just fix it for everyone". Again, clearly the set did not come out as expected, and the color matching process clearly had issues. I'm just looking for someone to suggest a feasible solution to the problem. And I just don't believe every regional vendor gets involved is the answer. A 4/5 vendors agree it looks good, 5th backs out, 5th had half the moq, now the entire pricepoint changes with GMK, GB collapses, and every vendor is now stuck with shopify fees on refunds. It'd kill any vendor starting out. Maybe if most vendors weren't still doing this as a part time job.
I mean the dream world would be vendors run it with their own money, and then only sell keysets in stock. But judging interest and moq would be a nightmare. Unfortunately the hobby just runs on crowd sourcing. God. Just imagine what a botting/flipping nightmare it would be if vendors sold 100 sets of a colorway at a time, using their own money. One of the nice things about keyset GBs is if it hits moq, everyone who joined is getting one.
Post by: kiyoboard on Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:31:19
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.
Well sure, but then you miss out on regional vendors. Then you end up paying international shipping and import fees. The reason for regional vendors is not because everyone wants to get rich (bread wasn't a ground breaking set as far as numbers go). It's because people prefer to purchase items from a vendor in their region.
But I agree, they should be informed. Did ilumkb inform the other vendors that the colors were off, I don't know, but I'd guess probably not. Did Gerg, that most definitely seems like a no. And again, if your unhappy with the keyset, you should contact the support of the vendor for a return. Most vendors will at least try to make things right. In previous sets where color matching was off (PnC for example), many people were OK with the set they received, even if it didn't match renders, and returns were sold out as extras, or were used for missing keys, etc.
I'm not putting customer nor vendor on a pedestal. Just trying to explain that in the world of keyset GBs it's not as simple as "vendors just fix it for everyone".
I think it might be an opportunity for more vendors to pop up rather than missing regional vendors, or might result in vendors being more selective about the sets they sell which might be a good and a bad thing.
I am personally someone who is fine with the set, so I am planning to keep it. And good on any vendor who offers refund, I think that is the right thing to do.
I agree that it is not as simple to fix things when they come to this stage. My suggestions were for what can be improved so that things don't come to this stage, or customers can be informed early on rather than waiting until delivery. For example, in this case, a likely scenario would be: ilumkb and designer made a wrong decision, then CK(I am just using CK since not sure who other vendors are) after not hearing anything about color matching, emails ilumkb to ask about it, to which ilumkb replies that they decided totally change the colors because #YOLO. Then CK and other vendors ideally, tells them that is a wrong decision and would be nice if they revert that decision. Ilumkb can either accept that and everything goes back to normal, or they can say that they will go ahead with this decision. Then CK and other vendors email to their customers that there is a change with the colors picked. Since it is not my duty as a customer to follow 100 discord and 100 geekhack threads to be aware of these stuff, and I am not getting paid for it, but vendors do. After vendors inform their customers, it is very likely that we would have bunch of customer writing on geekhack thread, joining discord channel to mention their concern and very likely deter ilumkb and designer from their decision.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:49:46
But I'm glad you like it enough to keep it. I know several other people keeping theirs as well. I liked the PnC set enough to buy extras, even though it was off.
Post by: nickthaskater on Thu, 18 November 2021, 02:35:52
Quote
What are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?
geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.
Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).
Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.
Post by: DaaDaa on Thu, 18 November 2021, 04:11:18
Post by: kiyoboard on Thu, 18 November 2021, 08:31:50
I mean...QuoteWhat are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?
geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.
Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).
Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.
To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:31:55
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:48:28
I mean...QuoteWhat are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?
geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.
Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).
Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.
To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.
That rule was not officially in writing until just a few weeks ago, so we won't be banning organizers who didn't post updates in the past. Going forward, the rule will be enforced. Good call on posting a reminder link to the updated rules when approving, I will definitely be doing that. :)
Post by: Reebes on Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:59:50
Oh yeah, I’m with you 1000% on this too. Transparency and by extension updates are really valuable and something I don’t see as many as I’d like to on this site. I think that’s partially due to designers not wanting to bother others with “unnecessary” bumps while other group buys are active. Is there some way to separate gb’s that are active from the rest? That way designers could update without fear of blocking out active gbs (and they’d have no excuse for not updating).You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.
Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?
I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.
I totally understand where you are coming from and maybe I didn't communicate clearly. There were 24 posts made in this GH thread in between first day launch and people showing photos of their kits in-hand. None of which I can see mentioned changes -- only an edited first post that had the mention of color changes in Discord tucked away. If you use this platform to promote your product you need to make updates happen on this platform. I love providing updates (new posts) on a regular basis regardless of good, bad, or boring and there are lots of people that do this. If you don't have prior business or sales experience the least you can do is update people along the way and check in with your customers.
But the other issue is still a real and significant one to me. If you have new designers with no related experience in any way, how do we separate them from new designers who have a better idea of what they’re doing?
For example I’d expect fewer issues from new designers with some experience in colour matching and theory, design, manufacturing and/or project management than a student who already has too much on their plate.
The hobby is getting bigger and while that means we’ll be seeing a lot of half-baked (pun not intended) crap, I’m sure some of the best stuff we’ll have will come from designers who aren’t even here yet. It’d be a shame to have a couple really rough gbs prevent great new designers from making a debut.
Edit: just realized that part of the purpose of reserving the first reply to your thread is to enable updating without bumping. Whoops.
Post by: kiyoboard on Thu, 18 November 2021, 10:25:34
MoreI mean...QuoteWhat are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?
geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.
Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).
Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.
To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.
That rule was not officially in writing until just a few weeks ago, so we won't be banning organizers who didn't post updates in the past. Going forward, the rule will be enforced. Good call on posting a reminder link to the updated rules when approving, I will definitely be doing that. :)
Thanks for your work Hoffman!
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 November 2021, 11:18:26
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 11:24:13
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Post by: kiyoboard on Thu, 18 November 2021, 12:58:06
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Not to join in this argument too, but I gave you one solution and you seem to disregard anything that can potentially benefit customer as being too hard for vendors to do. So, you are not giving any solutions either, and simply disregarding any potential solution as well to make things easier for vendors. Clearly there is a problem with how things are now, and wanting to keep things to stay same just because it is hard to do changes is not a good way to improve anything in the hobby. Not just for a case like this but applies to everything. For example if people said it is too hard and bothersome to do renders, and it costs money, then we wouldn't have high quality ICs like we have now. Even on vendors' side, if they said it is too much money and it is troublesome to store all the in-stock items, then we wouldn't have many in-stock options now.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 13:10:01
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Not to join in this argument too, but I gave you one solution and you seem to disregard anything that can potentially benefit customer as being too hard for vendors to do. So, you are not giving any solutions either, and simply disregarding any potential solution as well to make things easier for vendors. Clearly there is a problem with how things are now, and wanting to keep things to stay same just because it is hard to do changes is not a good way to improve anything in the hobby. Not just for a case like this but applies to everything. For example if people said it is too hard and bothersome to do renders, and it costs money, then we wouldn't have high quality ICs like we have now. Even on vendors' side, if they said it is too much money and it is troublesome to store all the in-stock items, then we wouldn't have many in-stock options now.
Huh? I know. I agreed your solution would work, if it was feasible, which I questioned. This wasn't directed at you. This was directed at DukeEsquire. I was curious if he had any thoughts on the subject other than "do better". I also never said I wanted to keep things the same, so I don't know where that came from as well. Accepting the reality of the situation with vendors, color matching, and group buys isn't disregarding anything, it just is what it is. So I'm sorry if I'm pressing people complaining for a solution. I didn't give one because I don't think there is one. Not if we want to make keysets available to all, and keep this part-time vendor hobby viable.
Personally I think vendors dealing with dissatisfied customers on a support case by case situation IS the viable solution, as far as 3rd party additional vendors go. Geekhack IC and GB requirements being more defined is also a good solution. Joining things based on reputation has always been a good solution to weeding out unreliable sellers/runners. These are all things we have or should have. But people seem to be implying that more should be done. So I'm curious what that is, and sure, once stated, I'll discuss it *shrug*.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:03:22
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:17:50
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:45:33
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:48:49
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:54:15
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:59:08
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 November 2021, 16:02:43
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 November 2021, 16:04:09
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Post by: megaforce on Thu, 18 November 2021, 23:12:12
Post by: Emir on Fri, 19 November 2021, 02:26:52
i like how "apologies" aren't even "apologies" anymore. nice trend. then again, were they ever? this hobby is a joke
Post by: koenoe on Fri, 19 November 2021, 05:47:17
It's sad that stuff like this happens, runners post an apology and then just move on to their next GB :(
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 19 November 2021, 08:09:17
Post by: kiyoboard on Fri, 19 November 2021, 13:24:06
MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 19 November 2021, 15:13:49
MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.
You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.
Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:28:49
MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything?
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:32:48
MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?
I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.
Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.
In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.
I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:45:39
MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?
I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.
Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.
In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.
I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.
If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I know it's hard, but if you bothered to actually digest my post rather than react with your usual kneejerk defense of the vendor, you would have quickly realized that my suggestions were reasonable and talking about future GBs. This one is already done.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:48:35
I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?
I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.
Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.
In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.
I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.
If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:53:41
I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?
I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.
Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.
In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.
I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.
If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I think you confuse "salt" with "annoyance".
Issues like what happened here are easily fixable.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 19 November 2021, 20:00:15
It's true. There's probably a way to fix this. Vendors attempt to help when these issues arise, but more transparency during color matching prior to submission would be great. Hopefully the new GH rules will enforce that.I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.MoreOk. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.
And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.
This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.
I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.
That was just off the top of my head.
CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.
That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.
The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...
I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?
And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?
I know vendors very well. I know what they do.
BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.
I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No? Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.
Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.
I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.
Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.
And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.
Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.
Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.
Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.
You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.
I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?
Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.
Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.
And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.
I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?
I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"
The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.
This is not a GoFundMe.
Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.
Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.
In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.
I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.
If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I think you confuse "salt" with "annoyance".
Issues like what happened here are easily fixable.
Sorry about calling you salty. When personal insults fly there's usually tears involved. Only reason I mentioned it.
Post by: solomonshv on Tue, 23 November 2021, 00:36:28
The ic page and gb page mention ral1015 for the alphas. That's not what we are seeing in pictures of what people received. What people got is way way more yellow.
that's because it was changed to RAL1014. 1015 is ivory while 1014 is an ivory/gold mix. but that's not what we got. i can only describe my gmk bread set as gouda cheese, and that's in ideal lighting. if your room/office has warm lights, it looks more like urine after an all-night bender. fortunately, i was able to get rid of mine. barely broke even but i'm glad i don't have to look at it anymore.
Post by: Kokaloo on Tue, 23 November 2021, 02:11:22
Yeah. Def a fan of GH new policies.Doesn't really affect runners who run r2's or light versions of sets if they never post the ic/gb to geekhack :p
Post by: Sissy on Tue, 23 November 2021, 21:35:45
Plum and Necro all over againHow do I keep joining these.
To be fair I still really like how Necro turned out drama aside.
I don't think I will be putting GMK toenails on any board or even opening it sadly and the only upside is it can probably be sold for the same price I paid but god damn this is lame.
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 24 November 2021, 09:55:28
Plum and Necro all over againHow do I keep joining these.
To be fair I still really like how Necro turned out drama aside.
I don't think I will be putting GMK toenails on any board or even opening it sadly and the only upside is it can probably be sold for the same price I paid but god damn this is lame.
at least mira worked out for us
Post by: mcheddadi on Tue, 18 October 2022, 19:34:22
Post by: Liewy on Sat, 03 December 2022, 13:16:02
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 03 December 2022, 13:18:52