Author Topic: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole  (Read 33273 times)

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Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:22:23 »
Not sure why you keep singling out ilumkb, but I also think that vendors are more responsible than the designer in situations like this.

ilumkb is the lead vendor. they are the ones placing the order with GMK and they get to see the sample color chips. cannonkeys and the other vendors have no input on any of this. they are just proxies. all they do is pay a factory invoice for the sets they order then wait. i kinda stopped reading after that. sorry.

I was basically agreeing with you, but way to make a conversation with people I guess... That said, them being lead vendor doesn't defer responsibility from other vendors in my opinion. I think they still have the responsibility to follow the production for something they sell on their page and profit from. Like if I was a "proxy" vendor, I would occasionally send emails to "lead" vendor to get updates on what is going on. Again, since there is no clear definition on who is responsible from what, that is just my opinion. Also, of course we don't know what exactly happened, and maybe the other vendors asked about update and ilumkb said everything is going according to plan.

Also regarding to supporting vendors we trust, I really hope that in the future we can get multiple regional vendors. I feel like that can give option to customers to pick vendor they want rather than missing out a set they want, and having competition between vendors can only be a good thing for customers as each of them tries to make their service better than the others.
Dunno if this makes sense. If Samsung ships buggy phones, is Best Buy responsible for the phones being buggy? No. Best Buy will take returns and refund money, or the users can decide to wait for an update.

This is the exact same case here. Vendors not involved in the GB submission really have no say in the color matching process. They've already taken orders and submitted them. If customers don't like the final product they can return it for a refund, but it's not the 4th party vendors' responsibility to hold hands for the process. Most have a laundry list of their own stuff they're submitting and working on. The hope is that the vendor who handled the submission will push the designer and GMK to get it right. I have to imagine most designers and 3rd party vendors would get frustrated with 5 other regional vendors constantly telling them what they want, especially if those regional vendors don't agree with each other. Then what?

And the reason sales aren't spread across multiple vendors in the same region is logistics. It'd be a nightmare and costly to not bulk ship sets to a final destination. Not to mention the moq needed for production might be so small at some to not even be worth the time. Plus it's another product launch to handle, for every keyset instead of every 4th or 5th as vendors are rotated around now.

Are the vendors offering returns and refunds?

Frankly, I don't have any sympathy for "simply" being a proxy. They are vendors. They have a responsibility for the products they sell.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:24:47 by DukeEsquire »

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #101 on: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:47:16 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
« Last Edit: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:54:44 by Zeelobby »

Offline MIGHTY CHICKEN

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:54:20 »
I know CK will.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
People buy GMK because they know their quality, this isn't just an issue of oh **** renders didn't turn out right, this is an issue of the colors literally changing without the most transparency. I'm sure many people would much rather go for another round or two than the color being completely different from what they expected.

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 17 November 2021, 23:59:11 »
I know CK will.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.
People buy GMK because they know their quality, this isn't just an issue of oh **** renders didn't turn out right, this is an issue of the colors literally changing without the most transparency. I'm sure many people would much rather go for another round or two than the color being completely different from what they expected.

Oh, and I totally agree. And it was up to those involved in the color matching process, the designer and submitting vendor, to correct those mistakes. Clearly they looked at it, decided they didn't care, and moved forward. I do think transparency in who was the submitting vendor would be nice for all keyset GBs though. Or a section detailing who will be involved in the color matching process. Clearly it should be more transparent than a poll of 10 people on a discord server.

I mean the discord decision making was just a mess. It's unfortunate all runners don't do updates on Geekhack. It's a real annoyance.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:04:52 by Zeelobby »

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #104 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:08:11 »
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #105 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:14:51 »
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.

Well sure, but then you miss out on regional vendors. Then you end up paying international shipping and import fees. The reason for regional vendors is not because everyone wants to get rich (bread wasn't a ground breaking set as far as numbers go). It's because people prefer to purchase items from a vendor in their region.

But I agree, they should be informed. Did ilumkb inform the other vendors that the colors were off, I don't know, but I'd guess probably not. Did Gerg, that most definitely seems like a no. And again, if your unhappy with the keyset, you should contact the support of the vendor for a return. Most vendors will at least try to make things right. In previous sets where color matching was off (PnC for example), many people were OK with the set they received, even if it didn't match renders, and returns were sold out as extras, or were used for missing keys, etc.

I'm not putting customer nor vendor on a pedestal. Just trying to explain that in the world of keyset GBs it's not as simple as "vendors just fix it for everyone". Again, clearly the set did not come out as expected, and the color matching process clearly had issues. I'm just looking for someone to suggest a feasible solution to the problem. And I just don't believe every regional vendor gets involved is the answer. A 4/5 vendors agree it looks good, 5th backs out, 5th had half the moq, now the entire pricepoint changes with GMK, GB collapses, and every vendor is now stuck with shopify fees on refunds. It'd kill any vendor starting out. Maybe if most vendors weren't still doing this as a part time job.

I mean the dream world would be vendors run it with their own money, and then only sell keysets in stock. But judging interest and moq would be a nightmare. Unfortunately the hobby just runs on crowd sourcing. God. Just imagine what a botting/flipping nightmare it would be if vendors sold 100 sets of a colorway at a time, using their own money. One of the nice things about keyset GBs is if it hits moq, everyone who joined is getting one.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:26:09 by Zeelobby »

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #106 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:31:19 »
You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

Just replying to this since I think the other part of the reply was directed to the other user. Not sure if you have read everything I wrote, but as I mentioned, I don't expect all vendors to create a council discussing decisions. I am just saying they should be informed about what is going on about a product they sold either by lead vendor telling them, or them asking about it if lead vendor is not telling anything. And color matching process should be a science with actual numbers, not something you sit down and discuss based on what you see on your screen or even in front of you since not everyone has the same eye sight. Not sure why you want vendors to be in advantage rather than the customers. Instead of putting responsibility on to customers, maybe vendors should not sell things if they won't be able to follow up on the process due to having too many projects.

Well sure, but then you miss out on regional vendors. Then you end up paying international shipping and import fees. The reason for regional vendors is not because everyone wants to get rich (bread wasn't a ground breaking set as far as numbers go). It's because people prefer to purchase items from a vendor in their region.

But I agree, they should be informed. Did ilumkb inform the other vendors that the colors were off, I don't know, but I'd guess probably not. Did Gerg, that most definitely seems like a no. And again, if your unhappy with the keyset, you should contact the support of the vendor for a return. Most vendors will at least try to make things right. In previous sets where color matching was off (PnC for example), many people were OK with the set they received, even if it didn't match renders, and returns were sold out as extras, or were used for missing keys, etc.

I'm not putting customer nor vendor on a pedestal. Just trying to explain that in the world of keyset GBs it's not as simple as "vendors just fix it for everyone".

I think it might be an opportunity for more vendors to pop up rather than missing regional vendors, or might result in vendors being more selective about the sets they sell which might be a good and a bad thing.

I am personally someone who is fine with the set, so I am planning to keep it. And good on any vendor who offers refund, I think that is the right thing to do.

I agree that it is not as simple to fix things when they come to this stage. My suggestions were for what can be improved so that things don't come to this stage, or customers can be informed early on rather than waiting until delivery. For example, in this case, a likely scenario would be: ilumkb and designer made a wrong decision, then CK(I am just using CK since not sure who other vendors are) after not hearing anything about color matching, emails ilumkb to ask about it, to which ilumkb replies that they decided totally change the colors because #YOLO. Then CK and other vendors ideally, tells them that is a wrong decision and would be nice if they revert that decision. Ilumkb can either accept that and everything goes back to normal, or they can say that they will go ahead with this decision. Then CK and other vendors email to their customers that there is a change with the colors picked. Since it is not my duty as a customer to follow 100 discord and 100 geekhack threads to be aware of these stuff, and I am not getting paid for it, but vendors do. After vendors inform their customers, it is very likely that we would have bunch of customer writing on geekhack thread, joining discord channel to mention their concern and very likely deter ilumkb and designer from their decision.

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #107 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:49:46 »
Yeah. That's def an example of how that could work. Would have likely worked in this case. Just gets tough when the colors are only slightly off. And vendors split on what they want. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Etc.

But I'm glad you like it enough to keep it. I know several other people keeping theirs as well. I liked the PnC set enough to buy extras, even though it was off.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 00:53:35 by Zeelobby »

Offline nickthaskater

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 02:35:52 »
I mean...

Quote
What are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?

geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.

Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).

Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.

Offline DaaDaa

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 04:11:18 »
The ic page and gb page mention ral1015 for the alphas. That's not what we are seeing in pictures of what people received. What people got is way way more yellow.

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #110 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 08:31:50 »
I mean...

Quote
What are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?

geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.

Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).

Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.

To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #111 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:31:55 »
nevermind, it's too early to be posting text walls, ignore this post
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:33:28 by Puddsy »
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #112 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:48:28 »
I mean...

Quote
What are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?

geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.

Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).

Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.

To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.

That rule was not officially in writing until just a few weeks ago, so we won't be banning organizers who didn't post updates in the past. Going forward, the rule will be enforced. Good call on posting a reminder link to the updated rules when approving, I will definitely be doing that. :)

Offline Reebes

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[GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #113 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 09:59:50 »
You really hate to see it. There are tons of successful vendors and designers that follow a strict policy when running their buys. Support people you trust or reputable designers that give consistent results. Being a designer alone should not be the benchmark for what you need to run a GB in our space -- aspects of business, finance, management, and logistics need to be just as important. I personally only support designers and vendors that have these skills after being burned in the past from similar issues. Sorry for the ones that didn't get the set they were shown.
Hmm so how can new designers prove to you that they have these skills? If it’s only through running successful group buys, it seems a bit like a catch 22.

Should I as a new designer be expected to disclose relevant career experience? Age?

I mean, I’m 100% with you that buyers need to have a better idea of designer competency, but I just don’t know how to communicate that.

I totally understand where you are coming from and maybe I didn't communicate clearly. There were 24 posts made in this GH thread in between first day launch and people showing photos of their kits in-hand. None of which I can see mentioned changes -- only an edited first post that had the mention of color changes in Discord tucked away. If you use this platform to promote your product you need to make updates happen on this platform. I love providing updates (new posts) on a regular basis regardless of good, bad, or boring and there are lots of people that do this. If you don't have prior business or sales experience the least you can do is update people along the way and check in with your customers.
Oh yeah, I’m with you 1000% on this too. Transparency and by extension updates are really valuable and something I don’t see as many as I’d like to on this site. I think that’s partially due to designers not wanting to bother others with “unnecessary” bumps while other group buys are active. Is there some way to separate gb’s that are active from the rest? That way designers could update without fear of blocking out active gbs (and they’d have no excuse for not updating).

But the other issue is still a real and significant one to me. If you have new designers with no related experience in any way, how do we separate them from new designers who have a better idea of what they’re doing?

For example I’d expect fewer issues from new designers with some experience in colour matching and theory, design, manufacturing and/or project management than a student who already has too much on their plate.

The hobby is getting bigger and while that means we’ll be seeing a lot of half-baked (pun not intended) crap, I’m sure some of the best stuff we’ll have will come from designers who aren’t even here yet. It’d be a shame to have a couple really rough gbs prevent great new designers from making a debut.

Edit: just realized that part of the purpose of reserving the first reply to your thread is to enable updating without bumping. Whoops.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 10:43:46 by Reebes »

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #114 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 10:25:34 »
More
I mean...

Quote
What are my responsibilities as a Group Buy organizer after creating the thread?

geekhack.org is a community of keyboard enthusiasts and not simply an advertising platform for keyboard-related sales. Thus we require that any group buy organizers who post their group buy threads in this section also provide updates in the thread they have started until the conclusion of the group buy, even if updates are also posted somewhere else. It is requested to post an update at least monthly, even if there is no progress in manufacturing.

Group buy threads made here are for group buy progress discussion as well as open discussion of any quality control issues. If a group buy organizer decides to provide an off-site instant message chat option for faster order support (for example Discord), any such communication needs to be optional when it comes to non-sensitive order information (individual support involving personal information is not required to, and should not, be posted in the public thread).

Clearly this requirement was not adhered to. I hope no future GB will be approved on GH for OP.

To be fair, if they ban this person because of that, then they have to ban 90% of the GB runners :D Until very recently, very few people were giving updates here but started changing now thankfully. I think maybe it would be helpful if mods or some autoreply bot also mention this rule(and any other important rules) when gb is approved, rather than just replying to thread with "Approved". So, people can't just claim that they weren't aware of the rule.

That rule was not officially in writing until just a few weeks ago, so we won't be banning organizers who didn't post updates in the past. Going forward, the rule will be enforced. Good call on posting a reminder link to the updated rules when approving, I will definitely be doing that. :)

Thanks for your work Hoffman!

Offline DukeEsquire

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #115 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 11:18:26 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.

Offline Zeelobby

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #116 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 11:24:13 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Offline kiyoboard

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #117 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 12:58:06 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Not to join in this argument too, but I gave you one solution and you seem to disregard anything that can potentially benefit customer as being too hard for vendors to do. So, you are not giving any solutions either, and simply disregarding any potential solution as well to make things easier for vendors. Clearly there is a problem with how things are now, and wanting to keep things to stay same just because it is hard to do changes is not a good way to improve anything in the hobby. Not just for a case like this but applies to everything. For example if people said it is too hard and bothersome to do renders, and it costs money, then we wouldn't have high quality ICs like we have now. Even on vendors' side, if they said it is too much money and it is troublesome to store all the in-stock items, then we wouldn't have many in-stock options now.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #118 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 13:10:01 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Not to join in this argument too, but I gave you one solution and you seem to disregard anything that can potentially benefit customer as being too hard for vendors to do. So, you are not giving any solutions either, and simply disregarding any potential solution as well to make things easier for vendors. Clearly there is a problem with how things are now, and wanting to keep things to stay same just because it is hard to do changes is not a good way to improve anything in the hobby. Not just for a case like this but applies to everything. For example if people said it is too hard and bothersome to do renders, and it costs money, then we wouldn't have high quality ICs like we have now. Even on vendors' side, if they said it is too much money and it is troublesome to store all the in-stock items, then we wouldn't have many in-stock options now.

Huh? I know. I agreed your solution would work, if it was feasible, which I questioned. This wasn't directed at you. This was directed at DukeEsquire. I was curious if he had any thoughts on the subject other than "do better". I also never said I wanted to keep things the same, so I don't know where that came from as well. Accepting the reality of the situation with vendors, color matching, and group buys isn't disregarding anything, it just is what it is. So I'm sorry if I'm pressing people complaining for a solution. I didn't give one because I don't think there is one. Not if we want to make keysets available to all, and keep this part-time vendor hobby viable.

Personally I think vendors dealing with dissatisfied customers on a support case by case situation IS the viable solution, as far as 3rd party additional vendors go. Geekhack IC and GB requirements being more defined is also a good solution. Joining things based on reputation has always been a good solution to weeding out unreliable sellers/runners. These are all things we have or should have. But people seem to be implying that more should be done. So I'm curious what that is, and sure, once stated, I'll discuss it *shrug*.

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #119 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:03:22 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:06:17 by DukeEsquire »

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #120 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:17:50 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?


Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #121 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:45:33 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #122 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:48:49 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:51:57 by Zeelobby »

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #123 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:54:15 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #124 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 15:59:08 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #125 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 16:02:43 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #126 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 16:04:09 »
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Offline megaforce

  • Posts: 1061
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #127 on: Thu, 18 November 2021, 23:12:12 »

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Offline Emir

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  • Location: Linköping, Sweden
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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #128 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 02:26:52 »
what in the world

i like how "apologies" aren't even "apologies" anymore. nice trend. then again, were they ever? this hobby is a joke

Offline koenoe

  • Posts: 107
    • My YouTube channel
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #129 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 05:47:17 »
I'm glad moderators of Geekhack are enforcing more rules for GB runners to hopefully prevent stuff like this in future  :thumb:
It's sad that stuff like this happens, runners post an apology and then just move on to their next GB :(
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 November 2021, 05:51:24 by koenoe »

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #130 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 08:09:17 »
Yeah. Def a fan of GH new policies.

Offline kiyoboard

  • Posts: 124
  • https://www.youtube.com/kiyoboard
    • https://www.youtube.com/kiyoboard
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #131 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 13:24:06 »
More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.

You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #132 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 15:13:49 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #133 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:28:49 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything?

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:33:17 by DukeEsquire »

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #134 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:32:48 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?

I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.

Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.

Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.

In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.

I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:40:02 by Zeelobby »

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #135 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:45:39 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?

I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.

Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.

Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.

In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.

I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.

Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.

If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.

I know it's hard, but if you bothered to actually digest my post rather than react with your usual kneejerk defense of the vendor, you would have quickly realized that my suggestions were reasonable and talking about future GBs. This one is already done.
« Last Edit: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:49:35 by DukeEsquire »

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #136 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:48:35 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?

I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.

Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.

Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.

In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.

I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.

Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.

If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.

Offline DukeEsquire

  • Posts: 584
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #137 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 19:53:41 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?

I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.

Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.

Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.

In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.

I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.

Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.

If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.

I think you confuse "salt" with "annoyance".

Issues like what happened here are easily fixable.

Offline Zeelobby

  • Posts: 897
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #138 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 20:00:15 »


More
I know CK will. Or at least they have a couple times in the past when people were unhappy with keyset colors.

And I wasn't telling you to be sympathetic. I was informing you of the reality. If you want products with known quality don't join GBs. Nobody is forcing anyone to join GBs. Most vendors have warnings concerning GB, specifically keysets, and color matching, as well. Any time you buy any product based purely on a render, there's always the likelihood (it's pretty much guaranteed) that the final product won't be exactly the same.

You don't support poor color matching, find vendors whose submissions you trust, or designer who will do their due diligence. Support them. Asking 6 vendors to get involved in the color matching process is both unnecessary (assuming the submitting vendor does their job, and the designer agrees to it) and a nightmare. If we went down this road prepare for every keyset to go through 8 rounds of color matching AFTER they've taken your money.

You don't need to "inform" me of the realities. I've been around this hobby longer than you have.

This isn't a color matching problem. This is a "changing the color code after the GB closed" problem.

I assume you are aware of that, but decided to try to dodge it because it works better for your narrative. Just want to steer the narrative back on solid factual grounds.
Ok. So solutions. Greg and ilumkb didn't let CK know they changed it last second. What should CK do? What should they have done? Better to come up with something than just flail at the air.

Refunds & returns, discounts for future products, apology email, promises to have better processes in the future including requiring the main vendor to keep everyone in the loop on color matching, refuse to be proxy for any main vendor that doesn't follow these procedures....etc. Even a mere acknowledge of "we ****ed up by relying on the main vendor and we won't do it again" would be SOMETHING.

That was just off the top of my head.

CK isn't a volunteer. They can't sell a product and tell consumers to pound sand if something goes wrong.

That said, I know your reputation so I'm sure any request that any vendor take any responsibility other than collecting money will just leave to complete aghast at the suggestion.

Most vendors handle returns, refunds, though it's normally on a case by case basis. Discounts for future products is a tall ask for any part time vendor, that's just silly. Most aren't swimming in profit margins, especially if trying to grow their business.

The rest of what you said, does happen, behind the scenes. Vendors choose all the time who they will proxy for depending on their reliability. It's likely proxy vendors in this buy had no reason to expect or doubt ilumkb to do it's due diligence. They're a respected vendor. I imagine some might change their mind now, which is what you suggested, so...

I agree that greater transparency is a good thing, but this has always been the case. And transparency can be both a blessing and a curse. Should vendors throw other vendors under buses for a single wrong knowing that they normally do right, and miss out on future business? Every buyer in this community likes to talk a big game like they'll buy more from the better vendors next time (I mean how many times have we seen people swear 40 kits will hit moq only to have them not actually hit moq), when in reality it's a minority that comes to vent in forums, or people who aren't even involved in a buy dog-piling to generate drama. Is there actual incentive in the community to put forth 3 or 4 times more effort to insure these things don't happen?

And again, your just being dramatic. Where has CK told people to "pound sand". And my reputation, lol. I guess if pragmatism is a reputation I have i'll gladly continue. It's quite sad that's all you think vendors do, definitely some fine threads of disingenuous cynicism and entitlement in there. But you seem to be taking this much harder then I am. Where did you buy your set from? did they refuse to refund you?

I know vendors very well. I know what they do.

BTW, has anyone ever used the term "entitled" as an insult and not been in the wrong? It's almost always used by someone who is defending someone that screwed up and doesn't want to take ownership.

I mean i just call it how it is. When someone demands support or recompense and then claims the party they expect it from does nothing, even though they do, it sounds entitled. No?  Your a self-proclaimed OG, you remember times prior to vendors right? They were pretty rough. Clearly vendors do more than just take money, cause like, that's what we used to have, heh.

Still curious where you bought your set from, and whether you tried to get anything resolved?

God forbid customers get what they ordered, right? Very entitled.

I mean they're warned it might not be exactly like the renders, or exactly what they expect, and if they're unhappy, can usually get a return. And then you factor in that some customers are happy with what they got, the majority actually keep their sets, there are very few returns. And then of course your glossing over the 20 other sets sold that year that turned out fine from that vendor.

Like i said, if you do the dramatic take, everyone is unhappy, and what was delivered was pieces of poop rather than keycaps. How dare they, lol.

And I'm just going to guess at this point that you didn't get GMK Bread at all. You don't seem like the type who'd hesitate to blame a vendor they bought this set from.

Here is where I tell you to pound sand on trying to get me to dox information about myself.

Heh, too funny. I'm fine letting this drop here.

Ok, so I will reply some of the stuff you mention. Firstly, you asked me when you said you don't want things to change. You don't necessarily need to say stuff outright, it can be inferred from other things you say. You keep claiming things being hard to change. And even in that same reply you mention there being no solution. Nobody is asking vendors to go faster than light, of course there are solutions. It is just matter of how adamant customers are about change, and how willing vendors are about the sacrifices they have to make.



You mention that majority of people are not asking refund, so they are happy. I think you know the answer to this already, but here it is still. Of course people are not going to ask for refund since they can sell it for a better price in the aftermarket. Why would they want to go through the process of submitting ticket, waiting and hoping that vendor accepts their return and get the money they paid a year or more ago? And you might say, it is a good thing they just increased their money then, but I mentioned in one of my previous replies that it is not the point. Even if everyone was liking how this turned out better than the renders, still it doesn't make it acceptable. Also I assume there are a lot of people like me who likes the original render better, but doesn't necessarily hate how this set turned out either and keeps the set.

I never said I don't want things to change. I just said the current system is what it is because of the nature of GBs. I'm open to any solutions, but they have to be practical. I think you hit it on the head tho. If most buyers are happy, even with the mistakes, and vendors would be required to sacrifice to fix those for the few that aren't, is it worth the effort? I'm not saying I wouldn't want to see it done. Just being practical. I think putting more pressure on designers and submitting vendors is the correct move. I don't think adding 5 more pairs of hands to the pot will help, and could hurt, in getting some of these sets to market.

You say that Duke probably didn't actually buy the set, so his opinion is not valid. This is simply wrong even if they actually haven't bought the set. Unless they are some evil mastermind trying to crush the hobby, we are all here to improve the hobby since that benefits everyone. I don't know if Duke bought this set or not, but I am sure they want their experience to be better next time they buy aset, so of course they have the right to give their opinion. Since otherwise they can just tell you that your opinion about customer problems is not valid, because you are affiliated with a vendor and have your biases. And as I said, I am someone who bought the set. In case you don't believe me either, subscribe to my youtube(don't forget to smash the like button) and follow me on twitch, and eventually I will show it there. But just because I am keeping the set makes my opinion less valid than someone who is trying to return it?

Honestly getting Duke to admit he didn't even buy the set he's railing about is secondary. It's an annoying thing seen in geekhack threads all the time. People bashing vendors when A) they weren't even involved in that buy, B) they don't even have a negative experience with that vendor, and C) they get unecessarily nasty because they feel they need to white knight it for people who actually are ok with it.

Primarily, I honestly wanted to know if he had a bad experience with a proxy vendor and who it was. If it was CK I would have tried to help him reach a happy outcome. Unfortunate he's an internet warrior and assumed I was trying to dox him by simply knowing who he bought it from, which is silly.

Also, I should mention that I have 0 problems with any of the vendors in the keyboard hobby including the ones mentioned here. I have bought stuff from ilumkb, bought stuff from CK and have stuff that I am waiting to arrive, and stuff that I am planning to buy. I am just trying to discuss what are potential improvements to the process so this doesn't happen. I know Duke wasn't including the color matching issues into this category, but I personally would even add that as well to make it more likely that customers get what they see. Since you ask for solutions, my solution for this would be vendors agreeing on a delta value for how close is acceptable, then with proper scientific color matching all the vendors would be notified with the result. If it is inside the previously agreed range then it would be accepted, otherwise rejected. So, there wouldn't be "too many chefs in one kitchen" situation you mentioned. And in the end all the vendors, and their respective consumers would be notified.

And I think we could try it. I've just seen people argue over slight shades of purple for days here. Now bread was much worse then that. But I do have concerns it would just create another delay loop and frustration for both buyers and vendors. I mean the reality is, both submitting vendor and designer should be able to handle this. And many times they do. They just do. Trying to widen the net of those responsible points more fingers, sure. But like, why'd it even have to get to that point in this case. Like anyone looking at that should have asked for another round. Haha.

I bought my set from CK and I've since sold it. Does that change anything? Does that make my opinion on how vendors and GB runners should treat customers invalid?

I'll wait for the back peddle of "well, since you sold it, your opinion doesn't matter even if you did buy it. No need for refund right?"

The point of this discussion is to bring to light bad behavior in the GB community which is based on trust.

This is not a GoFundMe.

Lol. Calm down buddy. I'm glad you found someone to buy it if you didn't like it. Just think it's funny to rag on CK support when you didn't even try it, and address them with such spite without even reaching out.

Hard for CK to treat you as invalid if you didn't even try to broach the conversation. Just saying. No need to get so salty about it. Constructive feedback straight to the source has its impact.

In the end vendors here do way more for the community than most crowd sourcing platforms, and in the end GBs are very much crowd sourcing. Most vendors can't support a 400 set buy by themselves. And unlike platforms like Kickstarter, vendors do a lot of customer support and try to work things out for their customers.

I hope things improve to a level your satisfied with.

Haha, you are so predictable. Don't worry. I'm not upset nor am I salty.

If you want constructive criticism, you can refer to my prior posts.
I dunno. I haven't felt the need to insult you personally besides you telling me to pound dust and calling me a bootlicker. But sure. You seem happy.

I think you confuse "salt" with "annoyance".

Issues like what happened here are easily fixable.
It's true. There's probably a way to fix this. Vendors attempt to help when these issues arise, but more transparency during color matching prior to submission would be great. Hopefully the new GH rules will enforce that.

Sorry about calling you salty. When personal insults fly there's usually tears involved. Only reason I mentioned it.

Offline solomonshv

  • Posts: 145
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 23 November 2021, 00:36:28 »
The ic page and gb page mention ral1015 for the alphas. That's not what we are seeing in pictures of what people received. What people got is way way more yellow.

that's because it was changed to RAL1014. 1015 is ivory while 1014 is an ivory/gold mix. but that's not what we got. i can only describe my gmk bread set as gouda cheese, and that's in ideal lighting. if your room/office has warm lights, it looks more like urine after an all-night bender. fortunately, i was able to get rid of mine. barely broke even but i'm glad i don't have to look at it anymore.
List of keyboard things i burned my money on

Keebs owned/bought::: Satisfaction 75 standard - cloud white | RAMA U80-A Moon | ai03 Vega | Gok 7V - blue & white | Iron 165 plum | Clarabelle - black cow | Keycult No.2/65 black/red | Think6.5V2 LE | iON Zenith - Moss | KCK KY-01 - Blue Grey | J-01 Rev1 - blue | Andromeda - Grey | Iron180 - E-White | Aurora Input Series 65 - Black | Tsukuyomi - Black | Onyx - E-White | Tomo - Blush Pink | Noxary 378 - Silver | Kohaku - Red | Haus - Silver | Owl=Lab Jelly Epoch - Sage & Ruby | OwLab Mr. Suit - Red Case w/ Chroma purple weight |

Caps owned/bought::: GMK Jamon, GMK Mizu, GMK PnC, GMK Dracula, GMK Terra, GMK Nautilus Nightmares, GMK Camping R2, GMK Cafe, GMK Olivia++, GMK Bingsu, GMK Analog Dreams, GMK Botanical, GMK Moondust, GMK Taro R2, GMK Hennessey, GMK Nautilus R2, GMK MoDo R2, ePBT Classic Cyrillic, GMK Bread, GMK Sumi, GMK Pono, GMK Bento R2, GMK Sloth, GMK Yuru, GMK Serika R2, GMK Birch, GMK Dandy, GMK Tuzi, GMK Red Alert, GMK Fuji, GMK Striker R2, GMK Wasabi V2, GMK Zooted, GMK Hazakura, GMK Cyrillic Beige, GMK Cyrillic WoB, GMK Dualshot R2, GMK Lavender, Aluvia, GMK Botanical R2, GMK Bingsu R2, GMK Moomin, GMK Daifuku, GMK November Fog, GMK Tiramisu

Wish list/Will buy::: Trifecta by 2Moons, Geonworks f2-84

Offline Kokaloo

  • Posts: 669
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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 23 November 2021, 02:11:22 »
Yeah. Def a fan of GH new policies.
Doesn't really affect runners who run r2's or light versions of sets if they never post the ic/gb to geekhack  :p

Offline Sissy

  • Posts: 467
  • Location: Australia
Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #141 on: Tue, 23 November 2021, 21:35:45 »
Plum and Necro all over again
How do I keep joining these.
To be fair I still really like how Necro turned out drama aside.

I don't think I will be putting GMK toenails on any board or even opening it sadly and the only upside is it can probably be sold for the same price I paid but god damn this is lame.

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB] GMK Bread - We got that Bread! Update - R2 Colour Samples and Banderole
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 24 November 2021, 09:55:28 »
Plum and Necro all over again
How do I keep joining these.
To be fair I still really like how Necro turned out drama aside.

I don't think I will be putting GMK toenails on any board or even opening it sadly and the only upside is it can probably be sold for the same price I paid but god damn this is lame.

at least mira worked out for us
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | TGR Alice | Mira SE | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | AIS65 | CW87 Proto



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90