Adopt a Keycap Legend with Cherry Replica Font! (Cherry font, not some other font)

[litster]

I think ReAzem has the same intention.  We just don't want anyone one else to profit from what we do here.  I don't think we will say no to anyone within the worldwide keyboard community who wants to make keycaps for the community.  But if someone wants to use it to make keycaps to sell for profit, we would not allow that.

[litster]

I am with Coco.  Who's with me?

[hazeluff]

I think ReAzem has the same intention.  We just don't want anyone one else to profit from what we do here.  I don't think we will say no to anyone within the worldwide keyboard community who wants to make keycaps for the community.  But if someone wants to use it to make keycaps to sell for profit, we would not allow that.

We should probably ask for commission from those people. So we can fund even MOAR FONTS!

I'd like people who think the opposite to talk and contribute. I'm open to debate. Tho I think the idea I've proposed would encapsulate the feelings of most.

[sth]

Let me throw my hat in the ring for some sort of CC license that prohibits commercial reuse.

That way the license holder, in this case the geek hack community, can still issue keycap sets for sale, and other people could make their own  -- but they can't commission a run of the caps to sell for personal profit. Doubleshot groupbuys seem to be the only major group buys when it comes to full key sets, so there's still a level of exclusivity to lure more folks into buying sets. Those who don't want, can't afford or don't care about doubleshots could do custom sets on WASD.

i feel like that's a decent compromise for the 'exclusive' group and the group that feels uncomfortable with the idea of copyright or intellectual property.

[hazeluff]

Let me throw my hat in the ring for some sort of CC license that prohibits commercial reuse.

That way the license holder, in this case the geek hack community, can still issue keycap sets for sale, and other people could make their own  -- but they can't commission a run of the caps to sell for personal profit. Doubleshot groupbuys seem to be the only major group buys when it comes to full key sets, so there's still a level of exclusivity to lure more folks into buying sets. Those who don't want, can't afford or don't care about doubleshots could do custom sets on WASD.

i feel like that's a decent compromise for the 'exclusive' group and the group that feels uncomfortable with the idea of copyright or intellectual property.

The font actually is only really applied to doubleshots (tho not truely exclusive to doubleshots). Since it's line-font. We're making this font due to the limitations of doubleshots with SP. I don't think we're trying to lure people in with the font (tho I guess it does in small amounts). I think it's more of just satisfying what we want personally/as a community.

Let me throw my hat in the ring for some sort of CC license that prohibits commercial reuse.

That way the license holder, in this case the geek hack community, can still issue keycap sets for sale, and other people could make their own -- but they can't commission a run of the caps to sell for personal profit.

I hope CC doesn't stand for Click Clacks, cos that doesn't make sense.

But yes essentially that is what I have in mind.

[hashbaz]

I think you would be a great person to orchestrate this thing!

I'd raise my voice for hashbaz too if he has the time.  Great person to deal with

Yeah, Hashbaz is good. I trust him.

Hashbaz for president!

I also vote for hashbaz.

I called that weeks ago! The guys a dude.

And I always thought hashbaz was a hot lady.  That goes my dreams...

You guys sure know how to make a hot lady feel loved.  I should follow the Dude's example and start a vanity thread after this. :grouphug:

Lowercase dude is fine.  But I'm The Dude.  Or Duderino.  Or his Dudeness.

The Dude can't abide other Dudes?

I don't see a point in drawing a line between communities, we should try to unite them

We should offer one of our noobs in marriage to the Koreans, with an ample dowry of SVGs.

I think we should keep it within the GH community.  But if people like OTD or kbdmania folks ask to use it, I think we would let them use it.  Just not totally open source so any joe blow could use it to make keys and try to profit from our effort.

I'm with tsangan with litster with demik with hazeluff.  Who's with me?

And my axe!  So say we all!

Seriously though, I agree with what many of you are saying.  We should be generous with the other keyboard communities if they're interested in these legends.  But I'm not comfortable making them totally free and open after all the work and money we are putting in here.  I'm not sure anyone outside the keyboard nerdosphere will ever care, but I'd like these to be "the geekhack legends", and to control who can use them.

[sth]

The font actually is only really applied to doubleshots (tho not truely exclusive to doubleshots). Since it's line-font. We're making this font due to the limitations of doubleshots with SP. I don't think we're trying to lure people in with the font (tho I guess it does in small amounts). I think it's more of just satisfying what we want personally/as a community.

Yeah, so people wanting to make their own might not be a big deal at all. I personally think it would be pretty cool if we made them available.

CC stands for Creative Commons. It was the first thing that came to mind although there may be others more suitable for what we're doing.

[Quarzac]

I agree with the general idea that they remain within the keyboard enthusiast forums, for the most part. That being said, can I use these once they're all put together? :biggrin:

[dorkvader]

Wow, I didn't mean to open the "open-source" can of worms. Here's the way I see it:
The more keyboards in the world with good fonts: the better. I am okay in spending money funding this. I like it when everyone wins, but maybe I don't value my time/money as much.

That said, I really like some of the CC (creative commons: I'd have chimed in if sth didn't) licenses. Clearly we want attribution (so they have to mention us if they want to use it. This will keep out most of the "random companies" and allow for other forums like OTD ot still benefit. What's more, we'll get the credit.What do you guys thing about NONderiv? That's where they can't use this to make a derivative work? I guess I'm asking about which is better for this: CC BY-ND or just CC BY?

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/

[ReAzem]

I'm with dork on that.

I'm strongly against fees for using the font tho, but the permission thing is great if you ask me.

[sth]

I like CC-BY. Fewer limitations, but other keyboard communities will have to acknowledge geekhack's amazing teamwork and dedication.


We're the best... around!

[litster]

The only thing in this that could possibly be "open source" is hazeluff's SVG files for the font.  That alone is kind of useless unless it is made into legends that SP can use to make keycaps.  These SVG files for the most part, will be "controlled" by hazeluff himself.  the money we raised here is to pay SP to make the legends.  By default, "we" own the rights to these legends and SP would only use the legends to make keys for us.  And if someone wants to use them, they will have to ask us and then if we agree, we give written permission to SP to allow the 3rd party to use our legends (as far as I know from reading other posts here).  If we make this truly open source, we would have to tell SP "Hey SP, feel free to make more keys with these legends, or let anyone else to use them.  It is free!"  I don't think we want to see some cherry looking thin keycaps showing up on ebay or taobao and go, WTF?

What I think we want is, if someone wants to use this font, they can talk to us, we say "who are you again?", " oh sure!", and send a note to SP to let the person use it.  With this, at least we will know when we see some random Cherry font keycaps that is thin, we know, oh, it is from our buddies in Korea, they talked to us 3 months ago about using our legends.

[hashbaz]

Agree with litster.  I think we are all getting at the same idea.  We want people to have to ask us for permission.  This will be the default state of affairs given SP's policies.  I don't think we need to or should release the SVGs at all.

[Game Theory]

I am with hazeluff.  Who's with me?

I agree.

[ReAzem]

I agree with Game Theory

[hazeluff]

I think the SVGs might need to be kept closed, so people don't run off with it to make legends elsewhere. Also, it's not too important for people to have the SVGs. Our goal was to make legends for us/others to use, the SVGs is not part of that.

I guess it depends if we find it ok for others to use the SVGs for say legends with someone else (WASD is the first one that comes to mind).

[hazeluff]

We should offer one of our noobs in marriage to the Koreans, with an ample dowry of SVGs.

I don't mind sacrificing myself for this. I might be able to beat her dad at starcraft too!

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43642[/ATTACH]

Seriously though, I agree with what many of you are saying. We should be generous with the other keyboard communities if they're interested in these legends. But I'm not comfortable making them totally free and open after all the work and money we are putting in here. I'm not sure anyone outside the keyboard nerdosphere will ever care, but I'd like these to be "the geekhack legends", and to control who can use them.

Well in a sense it won't be totally free. If we lend other keyboard communities to use them. We will expect them to return the favor. But it's good to join up the communities somehow. And someone needs to be the man and reach out (well more like being accepting of them).

[lightsout714]

You guys sure know how to make a hot lady feel loved.  I should follow the Dude's example and start a vanity thread after this. :grouphug:

Wait what, hot lady? Who?

[sth]

If we lend other keyboard communities to use them. We will expect them to return the favor. But it's good to join up the communities somehow. And someone needs to be the man and reach out (well more like being accepting of them).

Yep, we might as well be the ones to start the sharing trend.

[captain]

Can someone remind me again why we aren't putting the $5K into making some nice thick Cherry Corp R1-R4 Molds?


I mean having the Signature Plastic DCS anorexic thin caps masquerade as nice thick Cherries is like Taeyon pretend to be Adele.
(Attachment Link) 43314[/ATTACH]

^^^^THIS^^^^. Seriously. It's only a few more molds. We should match the Filco profile in THICK keycaps, with our new legends.

BTW, can our new legends be moved around for each buy?  i.e. centered for Round3 style?  Top left for Modern?  Lower right for freaky zombie?

[hashbaz]

^^^^THIS^^^^. Seriously. It's only a few more molds. We should match the Filco profile in THICK keycaps, with our new legends.

BTW, can our new legends be moved around for each buy?  i.e. centered for Round3 style?  Top left for Modern?  Lower right for freaky zombie?

New molds (i.e., thick key walls) is a lot of money.  Way more than we are talking about for just new legends.  No, I don't know how much exactly.

Adjusting the legends in any way, including moving them around or scaling them, means new legend fees.

Since it seems I have been elected class president, I'll ask Melissa what it would cost to produce entirely new molds, just for kicks.  I'll also confirm the volume discount on a full keyboard's worth of new legend fees.

[ReAzem]

How much thick molds cost?

We just need 4, right? One for each row.

How do they print legends? They make molds? Why exactly are they charging us for this?

[hazeluff]

^^^^THIS^^^^. Seriously. It's only a few more molds. We should match the Filco profile in THICK keycaps, with our new legends.

BTW, can our new legends be moved around for each buy?  i.e. centered for Round3 style?  Top left for Modern?  Lower right for freaky zombie?

No. SP will charge for the new "Legending fee". Also new SVGs are needed for them.

edit Ninjaed

How much thick molds cost?

We just need 4, right? One for each row.

How do they print legends? They make molds?

Theres also the 1.25x . Theres like 10 different size/profile combinatiosn we need?

About legends I'm not 100% sure, but I think they are charging the machine setup cost. Cos it's a drill cutting into the keycaps and then filled with the other plastic.

[ReAzem]

Just making R1 R2, R3 and R4 would be a great start.

Okay so what they do is put a USB thumbdrive in the machine, load the SVG, and charge us 10 bucks?

[hashbaz]

Wait what, hot lady? Who?

Feeling ... confused, lightsout?

[hazeluff]

Just making R1 R2, R3 and R4 would be a great start.

Okay so what they do is put a USB thumbdrive in the machine, load the SVG, and charge us 10 bucks?

I don't know, that's the truth.

What I know.

Drill cuts plastic -> plastic is filled.

[hashbaz]

Just making R1 R2, R3 and R4 would be a great start.

Okay so what they do is put a USB thumbdrive in the machine, load the SVG, and charge us 10 bucks?

What I've picked up from older geekhackers is that the new legend fees used to be cheaper (they're now $35-$45 depending on complexity, though we are hoping/planning on a volume discount).  I have no idea how much manual work is involved in producing a new legend.  I imagine part of the cost is in the actual material of the new die.  Again, I don't really know how it works.

Note that new legends are a totally separate thing from a new profile.  That involves "retooling" and is hundreds of dollars per key type, IIRC.  I count at least 11 combinations of size and row for a tenkeyless keyboard.

[hazeluff]

I would like to note the "GG" key from my GB was charged $25 for the legend it was just a font that SP did for me.

[hashbaz]

Ah, good to know.  My only experience has been with the SVGs from my RGBY group buy, which were all $35.  Makes sense that their standard fonts would be cheaper, I guess?

[hazeluff]

If the legends are numerous enough, you can get it at $10 per key. Volume discount

This is from the Dolce replica thread.

[hashbaz]

This is from the Dolce replica thread.

Excellent.  I will confirm this with Melissa when she gets back in on Wednesday, and let her know what we're planning to do.

[zoidbergslo]

Just for heads up new molds would cost more than 100k. And before you go that is impossible. Molds have to be made with better precision than other things because mold precision translates directly to injected plastic. And you need to calculate few things for the molds because ticker plastic has different cooling curve than thin one. You could get strange contour on top of keys and stuff.

[ReAzem]

Just for heads up new molds would cost more than 100k. And before you go that is impossible. Molds have to be made with better precision than other things because mold precision translates directly to injected plastic. And you need to calculate few things for the molds because ticker plastic has different cooling curve than thin one. You could get strange contour on top of keys and stuff.

Awh. Not worth it.

It should be SP's job to pay for that tho.

[hashbaz]

Like I said, a huge amount of money, plus expertise we don't have.  Where did you get that figure, zoidbergslo?

[hazeluff]

I think the 100k value seems a bit too high. But I get the point...expensive and out of our reach.

[ReAzem]

I think the 100k value seems a bit too high. But I get the point...expensive and out of our reach.

huh. The guys from QWERkeys made some thick looking keycaps.

[ReAzem]

Also Leopold will come out with thick PBT keys.

I predicted that way back in December of last year.

Lasered?

Tell me everything, read the future!

[hazeluff]

huh. The guys from QWERkeys made some thick looking keycaps.

The thick DS are flat profiles only. Devlin do them.

[mkawa]

tooling costs are large. i have no idea whether 100k is accurate, but they are large. let's leave it at that. folks, if you want thicker keys, bug imsto/vortex/costar. in this thread we are discussing a buy of new cherry-like legends for SP DS caps with proper kerning, spacing and symbols.

[zoidbergslo]

That number might not be exact but but it can illustrate problem here. As for where I got this number in company that I work for we had to pay something like that for simple molds. And I was studying that in school

[mbc]

Agree with litster.  I think we are all getting at the same idea.  We want people to have to ask us for permission.  This will be the default state of affairs given SP's policies.  I don't think we need to or should release the SVGs at all.

The problem is who will that person be? And what happens if he leaves the community or dies or whatever.wouldn't be the first time something like that happens

[mkawa]

no one is claiming to have better information than you, zoidbergslo. my point is only that whether or not this is true is orthogonal to the effort to get better SP DS legends, so i think the radio edit here is that if you don't care about getting a nice new set of SP DS legends, please post elsewhere.

The problem is who will that person be? And what happens if he leaves the community or dies or whatever.wouldn't be the first time something like that happens

it will be the person of record as far as SP's concerned, which at the moment looks like hashbaz. i think the point of electing him is that we trust him to pass the torch and write to SP to tell them to give permission to [next elected leader] if he needs to leave the community or die or something.

[hazeluff]

The problem is who will that person be? And what happens if he leaves the community or dies or whatever.wouldn't be the first time something like that happens

Tough one but its 7am for me. I'll ponder this later.

[ReAzem]

The problem is who will that person be? And what happens if he leaves the community or dies or whatever.wouldn't be the first time something like that happens

Oh. That's problematic.


Anyone who participated in funding the font maybe? Make a list of e-mails of people willing to handle this responsibility, and hand it to SP.

[mbc]

Btw.who cares if they pop up on taobao or any other Chinese site. Only sp will have the svgs we did.
In the end we are copying cherry fonts not creating something new. It would be close minded to act like the companies we hate for removing YouTube vids etc. just because we paid for something and no one else should get it...

Just think what we sometimes have to deal with because of retarded copyright laws etc.
No sc2 keys anymore (though blizzard isn't doing caps themselves )
Dumb Lego clones with 2 bumps
No cherry g80-5000
No IBM m15 (is this the ergo one, not sure)
And many many more

[zoidbergslo]

no one is claiming to have better information than you, zoidbergslo. my point is only that whether or not this is true is orthogonal to the effort to get better SP DS legends, so i think the radio edit here is that if you don't care about getting a nice new set of SP DS legends, please post elsewhere.

There must be some misunderstanding. I know why this topic was open and its not that I don't care for DS. That reply was for hashbaz but I forgot to quote.

[mkawa]

There must be some misunderstanding. I know why this topic was open and its not that I don't care for DS. That reply was for hashbaz but I forgot to quote.

no no no no, i'm not saying don't post here. on the contrary please keep posting. that statement was meant for others who keep trying to challenge your assertion that tooling costs are high and insisting that we try to pay tooling costs instead of making new legends.

[ReAzem]

^ missunderstanding-ception.

[mkawa]

lol

anyway, my vote is that the ruling cabal is, for now, hashbaz (for handling cash), hazeluff and tsangan (for designing) AND LITSTER FOR BEING PING

[litster]

lol

anyway, my vote is that the ruling cabal is, for now, hashbaz (for handling cash), hazeluff and tsangan (for designing)

As always, I am the management overhead.  

Now, who is going to bid more than $105 for the legend naming right?  I know it is not going to be ripster, because he is starting a new profile adoption for thicker keycaps.  I want to adopt the row 1 profile.  Most keycaps are row 1 caps!  R1 has the most offsprings.