I’m indifferent to rectangle politics.This has to be the biggest joke I've heard all day. Still, good luck to you with fulfillment, and good luck everyone. Boards are hot ;)
What is the reason for this number of mounting holes? ;)The mounting points are similar to what you'd find on most modern Jane inspired plates, the screw points have just been replaced with gasket mounting tabs.
Puddsy the legend. Much appreciate for the assist.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/hkYNpFj.png)
otherwise the 60 goes live in like 8ish hours
https://www.cruelworld.wtf/blogs/cw80-60/email-update-07-12-22
and sign up for the mailing list if you aren't already
https://www.cruelworld.wtf/pages/email-update
i believe this email went out to people who ordered already (mine is a proto so i'm technically not in this gb) but just in case people are checking here
Well, it's mid-November now.
CW80/60 GROUPBUY UNITS ARE IN THE FINAL WEEK OF ASSEMBLY AND PACKING. I HAVE BEEN ADVISED THIS WILL TAKE 1.5 WEEKS. I WILL BE LEAVING THE 20TH TO OVERSEE THE FOLLOWING PROCESS IN PERSON:
• Exporting + Shipping to QC warehouse (6-8 Days in transit)
• Individual SKU + QC Process (1-1.5 Weeks Estimate per fulfillment)
• Shipping to pick & pack center, distribution of GB units. (3-4 Days per fulfillment)
• Taeha + Alexotos streams
• Extras
Due to an error in communication all LE boards were assembled with silver hardware as opposed to the black hex hardware originally requested. I’ve had DDS reassemble these with the correct screws introducing a slight delay that’s expected to be entirely resolved on Monday - Tuesday. The rest of the boards are boxed for shipping while plates and bottom plates are being placed into windowed resealable mylar sleeves so that they can be identified quickly during SKU’ing. I have been given an estimate of 1 week until the entirety of the shipment is passed off to a forwarding agent to arrive to me.
Pictures of anodizations and misc packaging have been uploaded to the production gallery below. Please keep in mind that these are factory photos that are typically not color accurate due to aggressive factory lighting.
Damn, I knew I should have gotten that bordeaux on extras.
The CW60 GB has now concluded the first part of its journey for me personally, almost a year delayed to date, as my second CW60 arrived yesterday. I held out hope that my second CW60 would be any different than my first CW60, but unfortunately, it was not.
The CW60 design appears fundamentally flawed, even after 4 prototypes. The JST cutout in the bottom case is too small to house the PCB's JST connector with cable and is resting on the floor, acting as a tray mount post.
Here (https://imgur.com/a/vBSewGH) is some pictures with measurements I took from my two units.
Here (https://imgur.com/a/pl9B6j8) is even more pictures and videos from the Reddit link below.
This has been reported and acknowledged in the Reddit thread PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/13e0q7u/psa_cruelworld_60_has_unexcusable_design_flaws/) thread 6 days ago.
The GB runner has offered temporary solutions, working towards a permanent solution while they investigate the extent of the problem. A Google Form, only available through their Discord (https://discord.gg/ZY3frys), is set up for us GB participants to report that they are affected.
While I do appreciate that this issue is being taken seriously and addressed, I find the approach somewhat lacking. The problem has been known for over 12 days now, and shipments should have been halted for an immediate check on the extent and validity of the claims. In the process, it would be prudent to examine the TKL files and conduct control measurements on the produced boards to ensure other SKUs are not impacted. I for one asked for my second CW60 not to be sent as this is clearly not a tolerance issue.
Identifying the cause should be a matter of minutes. Open Fusion 360, measure the cutout, and if it's less than 7.1mm (a generous estimate), the design is fundamentally flawed and all units are affected. Both my two cases' cutouts measure ~6.05mm, and they're supposed to accommodate a 7mm JST connector and cable. This cutout should not be anywhere near 6mm (which coincidentally is the width of the JST connector component on the PCB). Not on prototype 1, 2, 3, 4, or let alone the GB run.
Moreover, there appears to be another design flaw in the CW60 that's masked by the small cutout: the reset button is too close to the bottom. This claim is backed by those who desoldered their JST connectors and soldered the wires directly onto the PCB, reporting that the reset button now hits the bottom case, necessitating its desoldering as well. Back-of-the-envelope math suggests that it is highly plausible. This suggests that this issue has been overlooked in all four prototypes prior to the Group Buy.
As if this was not enough, here is an incomplete list of other design or fulfillment issues that have been reported, ranging in severity:
- USB port misaligned
- JST cutout on the TKL I argue is misaligned, the connector has in the lower 0.x mm clearance to the bottom case (i.e. it will hit the bottom case when typing).
- Carrying case too small to house the keyboard wrapped in fiber cloth, which is neatly folded on top of the keyboard. While this may seem like a minor issue, I can only imagine the amount of hours that have been spent cleaning the keyboards from case foam and worrying about ano flaws. I estimate I have spent easily 1h between my two keyboards.
- Missing engravings on the Skunkworxxx editions
- 12 months delayed fulfillment
- No MDPC-X JST cable
- Missing components, mine was missing bump-ons
- Shipping by UPS rather than DHL which was what we paid for at the start of the GB. May not be such a big deal for some countries where UPS is actually competent.
If you are a GB participant, I highly suggest you join Cruel World Discord (https://discord.gg/ZY3frys) to stay up-to-date with all the latest developments while we complete the last part of this journey.
Thinking about getting an ApolloH 88 pcb for my CW88 - other than needing to solder on the JST header, anyone know if there would be an issue with using it?
https://divinikey.com/collections/new-arrivals/products/geon-apolloh-hotswap-pcb
The CW60 GB has now concluded the first part of its journey for me personally, almost a year delayed to date, as my second CW60 arrived yesterday. I held out hope that my second CW60 would be any different than my first CW60, but unfortunately, it was not.
The CW60 design appears fundamentally flawed, even after 4 prototypes. The JST cutout in the bottom case is too small to house the PCB's JST connector with cable and is resting on the floor, acting as a tray mount post.
Here (https://imgur.com/a/vBSewGH) is some pictures with measurements I took from my two units.
Here (https://imgur.com/a/pl9B6j8) is even more pictures and videos from the Reddit link below.
This has been reported and acknowledged in the Reddit thread PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/13e0q7u/psa_cruelworld_60_has_unexcusable_design_flaws/) thread 6 days ago.
The GB runner has offered temporary solutions, working towards a permanent solution while they investigate the extent of the problem. A Google Form, only available through their Discord (https://discord.gg/ZY3frys), is set up for us GB participants to report that they are affected.
While I do appreciate that this issue is being taken seriously and addressed, I find the approach somewhat lacking. The problem has been known for over 12 days now, and shipments should have been halted for an immediate check on the extent and validity of the claims. In the process, it would be prudent to examine the TKL files and conduct control measurements on the produced boards to ensure other SKUs are not impacted. I for one asked for my second CW60 not to be sent as this is clearly not a tolerance issue.
Identifying the cause should be a matter of minutes. Open Fusion 360, measure the cutout, and if it's less than 7.1mm (a generous estimate), the design is fundamentally flawed and all units are affected. Both my two cases' cutouts measure ~6.05mm, and they're supposed to accommodate a 7mm JST connector and cable. This cutout should not be anywhere near 6mm (which coincidentally is the width of the JST connector component on the PCB). Not on prototype 1, 2, 3, 4, or let alone the GB run.
Moreover, there appears to be another design flaw in the CW60 that's masked by the small cutout: the reset button is too close to the bottom. This claim is backed by those who desoldered their JST connectors and soldered the wires directly onto the PCB, reporting that the reset button now hits the bottom case, necessitating its desoldering as well. Back-of-the-envelope math suggests that it is highly plausible. This suggests that this issue has been overlooked in all four prototypes prior to the Group Buy.
As if this was not enough, here is an incomplete list of other design or fulfillment issues that have been reported, ranging in severity:
- USB port misaligned
- JST cutout on the TKL I argue is misaligned, the connector has in the lower 0.x mm clearance to the bottom case (i.e. it will hit the bottom case when typing).
- Carrying case too small to house the keyboard wrapped in fiber cloth, which is neatly folded on top of the keyboard. While this may seem like a minor issue, I can only imagine the amount of hours that have been spent cleaning the keyboards from case foam and worrying about ano flaws. I estimate I have spent easily 1h between my two keyboards.
- Missing engravings on the Skunkworxxx editions
- 12 months delayed fulfillment
- No MDPC-X JST cable
- Missing components, mine was missing bump-ons
- Shipping by UPS rather than DHL which was what we paid for at the start of the GB. May not be such a big deal for some countries where UPS is actually competent.
If you are a GB participant, I highly suggest you join Cruel World Discord (https://discord.gg/ZY3frys) to stay up-to-date with all the latest developments while we complete the last part of this journey.
One of the reasons I joined this GB was the self proclaimed 4 months delivery date and all of his yes-men shilling his product on discord. If I remember correctly I believed he said that he finished sleeving all the jst cables. I can't be for sure anymore since the discord channel is now gone but mine did not come sleeved. Seems like just another thing to add to the list of broken promises. It's unfortunate that the board ended up with as many flaws as you stated. As his first public group buy he definitely took on more than he can chew.
One of the reasons I joined this GB was the self proclaimed 4 months delivery date and all of his yes-men shilling his product on discord. If I remember correctly I believed he said that he finished sleeving all the jst cables. I can't be for sure anymore since the discord channel is now gone but mine did not come sleeved. Seems like just another thing to add to the list of broken promises. It's unfortunate that the board ended up with as many flaws as you stated. As his first public group buy he definitely took on more than he can chew.
One of the reasons I joined this GB was the self proclaimed 4 months delivery date and all of his yes-men shilling his product on discord. If I remember correctly I believed he said that he finished sleeving all the jst cables. I can't be for sure anymore since the discord channel is now gone but mine did not come sleeved. Seems like just another thing to add to the list of broken promises. It's unfortunate that the board ended up with as many flaws as you stated. As his first public group buy he definitely took on more than he can chew.
I'm fairly new to this hobby and was bummed for missing out on this board but after seeing what a debacle this has become, I'm definitely glad I missed it. I mean, 1300 units for his very first GB is outrageous.
Looks like Pixy is out of the running for me now. There's just way too many better options out there.
I finally got around to assembling my CW60 LE yesterday. Aside from not seeing any “special engraving” and not having received bumpons, initial impression is good.
I’ve been AWOL and missed the option to purchase extra plates/weights. Anyone know if this will be possible at later time?
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
That is the best option for them financially, with the added bonus of saving face for themselves, the FnF/prototype testers, and streamers by virtue of plausible deniability.
I'm super looking forward to those pictures of your board.
You seem to be friends with CruelWorld. What is your take of what happened? Design file mistake? Because we have gotten no explanation of what the reason for this mess is.
I will tag and remind you to post pictures if you happen to forget.
I'm super looking forward to those pictures of your board.
You seem to be friends with CruelWorld. What is your take of what happened? Design file mistake? Because we have gotten no explanation of what the reason for this mess is.
I will tag and remind you to post pictures if you happen to forget.
Here is the Imgur album I made. https://imgur.com/a/3aS9dHc The 88 has tighter tolerances than the Proto60, however I am still able to achieve movement in the gaskets over the JST area. I am on the half aluminum plate on my 88, so it is stiffer in general in the navigation section due to the lack of cutouts in the aluminum plate. As you can see in the prototype, there is ample room to allow the pcb to flex. I have a polycarbonate plate in my 60 and have full flexibility when pressing down on it.
Nice of you to join the conversation, I have updated my post. The JST cutout sure looks different, or maybe we get fooled by the promised custom MDPC-X JST cable that you are sporting. I thought I gave the blueprint of how to document the flaw. (https://imgur.com/a/vBSewGH)
TL;DR: All production/GB units are fundamentally flawed, while FnF boards show significant differences and appear to be free from the same issue(s)...
TL;DR: All production/GB units are fundamentally flawed, while FnF boards show significant differences and appear to be free from the same issue(s).
Is it all production units or just the CW60 SKUs? I have no issues or have not noticed any with multiple builds on my extras CW88
Is it all production units or just the CW60 SKUs? I have no issues or have not noticed any with multiple builds on my extras CW88
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.Show Image(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1120253617648193577/1123638037209944214/IMG_7059.jpg)
Was shorted PC plates in all 3 of my keyboard orders. Sent a support email three times now over the last 4 months but still haven't had a response. Anyone getting any response from GB runner at all?
What's the likelihood this mess gets sorted out before October? Honest question since I have 0 clue what pcb manu is like
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.Show Image(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1120253617648193577/1123638037209944214/IMG_7059.jpg)
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.Show Image(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1120253617648193577/1123638037209944214/IMG_7059.jpg)
wait I just noticed your pcb is not the CW one. which pcb did you use?
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.Show Image(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1120253617648193577/1123638037209944214/IMG_7059.jpg)
wait I just noticed your pcb is not the CW one. which pcb did you use?
Probably Geon ApolloH. They mentioned it earlier and it looks the same.
I replaced the JST header with a Molex EZmate connector, then used a Geon EZmate to JST cable - it works well and doesn't bottom out. Not ideal, I know, but it's a solution for people who are up for it.
oooo, this is in interesting fix. Do you have pictures of the end result by any chance?
Not my best work but I haven't had any issues and the connector is solidly attached.Show Image(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1120253617648193577/1123638037209944214/IMG_7059.jpg)
oh damn, did you have to rip those connectors apart? I just ordered a set of these molex connectors from digikey so let's see if I can do the same thing you did.
A month has passed since last Discord update where they teased Pixy PCBs with fun art, ne pictures avail? :rolleyes: It's also been three months since they said that replacement PCBs, the workaround for too small JST cutout in the bottomcase, for THIS GB would be prototype ready within a few days. Don't forget, they also estimated that the DB shims for the misaligned USB port would have been completed about two months ago. But all we've seen so far is a render from a month ago. Why bother with these time estimates at this point?
We are living in a cruel world
I was able to build mg cw88 by using the Bastion tkl from cannon keys with the molex connector. I also got the matching molex daughterboard and cable since the molex connector on the bastion is a bit further down than it usually is. I don’t experience the pcb bottoming out but there is very little space below the hotswap sockets.
Overall I like the typing feel of the board. Just sad things ended up the way they are. I need those shims tho.
Edit: It appears that my 1.5u mods are a bit crooked. Time to email Cannonkeys about it.
any news?No news that I've seen. Solidifying my thoughts about this being the blunder of the century when it comes to design vs functionality.
Also, we still have not gotten any type of information about why this happened.
I was able to build mg cw88 by using the Bastion tkl from cannon keys with the molex connector. I also got the matching molex daughterboard and cable since the molex connector on the bastion is a bit further down than it usually is. I don’t experience the pcb bottoming out but there is very little space below the hotswap sockets.
Overall I like the typing feel of the board. Just sad things ended up the way they are. I need those shims tho.
Edit: It appears that my 1.5u mods are a bit crooked. Time to email Cannonkeys about it.
How did this end up going for you? I'm thinking about ordering this PCB to get a hotswap build going in the cw88. I'm assuming you used the C4 daughterboard that CK sells?
https://cannonkeys.com/products/unified-c4-daughterboard
Is there anyone who's friends with this dude who can ping him for an update? He doesn't respond to emails and hasn't updated his discord in almost 3 months. I don't even have an issue with waiting, but with all the exit scamming this year literally any communication would be nice.
It has been over six months since the Reddit post PSA: CruelWorld 60 has unexcusable design flaws (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/13e0q7u/psa_cruelworld_60_has_unexcusable_design_flaws/), and almost three months since the last communication in the CW Discord regarding replacement PCBs and DB shims to fix a few of CW60 many issues. For reference, Justin is now fulfilling orders for the 700+ units Derivate group buy, seven months post-group buy. In the same period, CW has only managed to display two images of a PCB. To further emphasize CW's incompetence, Justin will have successfully fulfilled three major GBs (Cloudline, Moment, Derivate), while we are still awaiting the board promised to us in the GB.
I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.
I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.
desolder the JST connector on the pcb and solder the JST wires directly on the pcb, at least you won't ruin the board.
Mod edit: Removed speculation
If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.
I'd also want to know why it was removed for mod speculation, tried check wayback machine but it only goes back to july this year.If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.
To be fair to the mods if the runner has ghosted in a lot of places then they probably won't respond to the mods dms as well. There is not a lot people can do if someone is avoiding responsibility for their mistakes like this (or at least that's how it feels, due to the absolute lack of communication)
I'd also want to know why it was removed for mod speculation, tried check wayback machine but it only goes back to july this year.If you, the mods, are putting in the effort of silencing fair criticism, I would ask you to try to get in contact with the runner and request an update.
To be fair to the mods if the runner has ghosted in a lot of places then they probably won't respond to the mods dms as well. There is not a lot people can do if someone is avoiding responsibility for their mistakes like this (or at least that's how it feels, due to the absolute lack of communication)Someone deleted my previous message, the one that Treeleaf quoted, which currently sits two posts above this one. I would appreciate an explanation; my DMs are open.
The gist of the deleted post was that CW teased a new project without first fulfilling their obligations for THIS GB. There have been delays, broken promises/time estimates, and they have closed the opt-in Google form for PCB replacements. This was a workaround for the design flaw of a too small/narrow JST cutout in the bottom case, and I proposed contacting them through their support to resolve the issue. (https://www.cruelworld.wtf/pages/contact) That being said, I would appreciate hearing the reasoning as to why my previous post was deleted.
At the risk of this getting removed or edited, I believe their message before it got edited by the moderators was basically calling out the runner for trying to quickly move onto new GB projects like Pixy despite outstanding issues in this GB.
I was holding out hope but I think it’s safe to say we can add CW to the growing list of disappointments in the hobby. At this point i’m honestly considering grinding the hole open with a Dremel. It won’t show on the outside, might make the keyboard actually usable.
Don't sleep on this one.I wish I did.
Don't sleep on this one.I wish I did.
You have said to be friends with Cruelworld.
What's going on?
We can see that you have been online a couple of times recently @cruelworld
Any updates to share?
Don't sleep on this one.I wish I did.
You have said to be friends with Cruelworld.
What's going on?
Cobertt is not a simp!LMFAO all the more reason to expect an answer from him then?
He is a Trust & Safety Admin Team Member of the MK Vendor Trust and Safety System.
Cobertt is not a simp!LMFAO all the more reason to expect an answer from him then?
He is a Trust & Safety Admin Team Member of the MK Vendor Trust and Safety System.
Yes, I said I was friends with CW. We used to chat daily on Discord, but I did not know him in real life. Probably similar to how friends work in the majority of online spaces. I have not seen CW online in months on Discord. I haven't heard from him in longer. For what it's worth, my last message to him was pointing out the Reddit thread where these issues were brought to light. ... Everyone in the group buy should be made whole again, and replacement PCBs to address the issue should be provided.
Yes, I said I was friends with CW. We used to chat daily on Discord, but I did not know him in real life. Probably similar to how friends work in the majority of online spaces. I have not seen CW online in months on Discord. I haven't heard from him in longer. For what it's worth, my last message to him was pointing out the Reddit thread where these issues were brought to light. ... Everyone in the group buy should be made whole again, and replacement PCBs to address the issue should be provided.
So, you haven't seen or heard anything from your, now former, friend in months. Didn't you think that was something worth mentioning? Instead, we, the community, are expected to provide updates to mods (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/196hreg/comment/ki3efea/) that you, a mod, already "knew" months ago. Did you honestly expect that they would still uphold their promise to produce and distribute 800-1000+ PCBs and DB shims, even after they stopped interacting with their friends? Some of us still held out a sliver of hope...
The system is put in place, and targets primarily vendorsso the specific case of a designer self fulfilling a project and bailing on his minimal duties does not deserve community awareness since he's not technically a vendor?
It does not perform the way that users expect.of course it's the user's fault for expecting something absolutely minimal and basic for a board this price which was widely advertised and hyped as something "to not sleep on" by many highly regarded creators in the hobby. the board was either badly designed or manufactured using wrong/outdated cad files, it is NOT a matter of expectations. the board is FLAWED however you try to put it. it CANNOT be built the way it was intended to be, factually.
the GB was delivered in full.this is the absolute bare minimum and I'm appalled we're being told that this is one of the reasons no one is talking about this situation anymore. also "delivered" yes, but how? my board came scuffed and you'd be shocked to read the heap of arrogant and passive aggressive replies I had to endure from this individual before he bothered to do anything about it. and thank god he acted before the jst issue was brought to life, or I'd be stuck with a flawed AND scuffed board to boot.
so the specific case of a designer self fulfilling a project and bailing on his minimal duties does not deserve community awareness since he's not technically a vendor?1. Community awareness is established through this thread and the Reddit post. The Reddit thread was done at a relevant time during the fulfillment.
of course it's the user's fault for expecting something absolutely minimal and basic for a board this price which was widely advertised and hyped as something "to not sleep on" by many highly regarded creators in the hobby. the board was either badly designed or manufactured using wrong/outdated cad files, it is NOT a matter of expectations. the board is FLAWED however you try to put it. it CANNOT be built the way it was intended to be, factually.
this is the absolute bare minimum and I'm appalled we're being told that this is one of the reasons no one is talking about this situation anymore. also "delivered" yes, but how?
I'm not targeting you individually let's be clear, cw had many more connection going on in the hobby with people that facilitated the financial success of his GB and went equally radio silent, I'm just honestly shocked at the reasons why everyone is ignoring the situation (or dismissing it as speculation lmao).
I just hope that if he ever takes the unfortunate decision of coming back and trying to sell another $600-700 board, the whole influencer section of the hobby will point out his utter unreliability.
...
But to your point about MK Trust and Safety I have two things that should be worth mentioning overall.
...
I'm also the only one still engaging in discussion about the flaws in this board.