geekhack

geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: Dox on Mon, 10 October 2011, 16:06:53

Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 10 October 2011, 16:06:53
I started designing a "OTD class" split ergo keyboard this weekend based on the key64 (http://www.key64.com) and I was thinking that maybe we could make it possible if there was some people interested.

The design is not final and there is still a lot of work to be done but here is where I am.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28310[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28306[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28307[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28308[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28309[/ATTACH]

Current design (based on feedback and comments) still not final:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28864&d=1318894674)
THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.

The price will be high ±400$ (highly depending on how many we are).

What would be included:
Full CNC anodized aluminium case and plate,
PCB.

What may be included or self-served:
Switches,
Keycaps,
Diodes,
Cable,
Teensy,
Assembly

Leave your interest and comment below.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 10 October 2011, 16:43:44
Now available via Massdrop!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox

(You will need to make an account with them)

Updated with list:

Interest collected via Geekhack:
Code: [Select]
01. Dox...................2. (The creator himself!)
02. DorkVader.............1. (Very likely)
03. iWuzHere..............1p (under $150-200)
04. demik.................1? (Looks Awesome, worried about soldering)
05. Litster...............1. (Definitely interested)
06. Sordna................1-2(Looks GREAT!) (will save 200 without case)
07. RColinTaylor..........1p (if under $300)
08. Mazora................1? (dependent on layout)
09. Input Nirvana.........1? (Possible Interest)
10. TheSoulHunter.........1p ($300 range)
11. Christoffer.Braathen..1. (ALL IN!!!)
12. Bretrex...............1. (Pcb only)
13. Karacho...............1. (I want one)
14. Quarzac...............1p (Interested, but worried about cost)
15. REVENGE...............1. (Fantastic Project)(definitely want one now)
16. Sleuth................1p (will see about cash)
17.
18. Ascaii................1. (very interested; Heavy Metal only)
19. Laffindude............1p (under $300) (still in this)
20. Chef..................2.
21. eagleeye..............1P (under $300, depending on design)
22. cyclonechuah..........1P (I'm interested if it's under $300.)
23. Gilgam................1
24.
25. Gfresh404.............1P (maybe around $200)
26. inaneframe............3+. (Currently looking to sell his car) ("Dox, you're beautiful")
27. funkymeeba............1P (under $350 or so) (or more!)
28. Hoggy.................1. (This is exactly what he needs!)
29. mharrison.............1. (One if by trackpoint)
30. wrtcedar..............1P (If under ~$300+)
31.
32. fim...................1. (Does not want to solder)
33. obra..................1. (interested in soldering service)
34. bonega................1. (Soldered & ship to sweden, under 300)
35. richie................1. (under $400& assembled)
36. parak.................1? (Possible)
37. Ironman31.............1. (If the keys come with it)
38. mioytan...............1P (under 300)
39. boli..................1-2($400)
40. Icarium...............1P ($400)
41. moogatronic...........1P (under $400)
42. dzd...................1. (Wants one too!)
43. itlnstln..............1. (would be in for one)
44. heuristicist..........2P ($500 for all parts. $600 tops.)
45. REVENGE...............1+ (Definately interested)
46. Zanth.................1. (I would be in for one)
47. Tafryn................1P (around $300)
48. Thirdkind.............2. (definitely be in for 2)
49. Sicyo.................1. (Would certainly be interested)
50. pjpettis..............1? (I'm about 95% in for one.)
51. ksweber...............1. (I am also interested in getting one)
52. jedcred...............1. (Interested up to the shoulder with this design)
53. gilgam................1. ("i want one of this" Who doesn't?)
54. Salash................1. (Standard message of interest)
55. minnus................1. (Please add me to the interest list as well)
56. ekw808................1p (under 200)
57. ic07..................4P*(2-4 pcb and 0-2 cases, depending on price)
58. Laggy-gaga............1p (around 200)
59. dirge.................2. (One put down [on] the list)
60. ped...................1p (Not much over 400 :D )
61. Kisakuku..............1.
62. seferphier............1p (200-250)
63. Mycroftxxx............1p (depends on material)
64. speedkills............1p (500, assembeld)
65. molto.................1p (50, PCB only)
66. Jesuswasazombie.......1p (Awesome if under 200)
67. Inf3rn0_44............1p (Interested under 300)
68. geekabit..............1p (Interested under 200)
69. Necroleachate.........1p (Dreams will be fulfilled if under 200)
70. jblack801.............1p (Definately in for $250)
71. tradet................1p (Maybe under 200 tempts him)
72. beguiledfoil..........1p (under 400 and blank)
73. itunesacc.............1p (around 200)
74. rburrows..............1p (around 400 soldered)
75. tjweir................1p (interest at 300)
76. OrangeJewce...........1-2(400 for all, assembled)
77. Spharx................1p (miraculously 200)
78. Sherryton.............1. (Dork put him down)
79. bjarven...............1. (Interest Looks Great!)
80. Whiterice.............1p (I'm in. 400.)
81. Autolyze..............1. (totally interested)
82. didjamatic............1-3(Depends on final price)
83. merijn................1p (Starving Student Budget)
84. mSSM..................1-2(well interested)
85. effh..................2. (PCB for amazing firmware/hacking ability)
86. Salisen...............1p (interested in "300")
87. Zifle.................1. (Timeline and Interest Check.)
88. forcefollow...........2-3(hopes it will be produced soon)
89. Surger................1-2(Most definately interested, what about f# keys?)
90. Djuzuh................1p (might be interested, depending on price)
91. ashleydev.............1. (Can I put in an order?)
92. bisl..................3. (kinesis/ergoDOX club)
93. braaaiiins............1P (Pcb only if under 100)
94. SubGothius............1P ($500 budget.)
95. Hashbaz...............1. (Added to list.)
96. localredhead..........1. (Count me in!)
97. jochu.................1-2(Consider me interested)
98. prdlm2009.............1. (may be interested)
99. Tsangan...............1. (interested only after seeing the prototype working)
100.Mkawa.................1. (in to help as usual)
101.StaCT13...............1p (under $500 for everything, assembled)
102.The_Beast.............1. (Always interested in a pcb)
103.docomoz...............1. ("I'm in. No matter what the cost")
104.kta...................1p ($500 range, at least noe set)
105.bebuxe................1. (No matter what the cost!)
106.gdaian................1. (Ergodox relieves frustration)

Removed interest:
31. Architect.............1-3. (one for sure. two more possible)

From DT:
Code: [Select]
01. Webwit................1. (I'm in for one if it comes to a group buy.)
02. jakobcreutzfeldt......1. (Too "mad" to be marked yet)
03. xbb...................1. (Thanks added to list)
04. jcrouse...............1. ("I want one list")
05. pingbat...............1. (utron dreams)
06. forcefollow...........1. (one to replace his drool-damaged HHKB
07. wiredPANDA............1. (Watches it develop)
08. domoaligato...........1-2(from following this thread)
09. PrinsValium...........3. (See #12 on GH. Needs a couple for "Reference")
10. HzFaq.................1. (Really startnig to look awesome)
11. bjarven...............1. (Waiting on this or kinesis
12. yobfish...............1. (Joined the forum to be added!)
13. nathanak21............1P (Without breaknig the bank)
14. mintberryminuscrunch..1. (PCB Only)
15. Findecanor............1. (all but case)
16. DanGWanG..............1. (In for one!)
17. AKIMbO................1. (Looks Amazing)
18. ondast................1. (Interested in full version)
19. justcallmecrash.......1-2(Again, depending on the costs. If it really is $30 ->2)
20. regak.................1-2(Got his name down.)
21. Possum................1. (Who wouldn't want one?)
22. Damorgue..............1.
23. yobfish...............1
24. maxrunner.............1p (200-250)
25. nodnerb...............1  (In for one pair)
26. Jim66.................1. (Moved From GH)(will be in for one)
27. Kurrk.................1P (under the magic $300)
28. WarlockD..............1. (Exactly what He's been looking for)
29. maxrunner.............1. (he's interested in any way!)
30. Aleksander............1. (He's on the list now, that's an excuse to get one)
31. Fossala...............1. (on the list now)
32. plaset36..............1. (interested in one)
33. gilsoriano............1. (One whole)
34. stevedreams...........1. (Has been counted)
35. off...................1? (really starting tolook great)
36. bill..................1. (case and PCB's)
37. TheProfosist..........1. (somewhat interested)
38. SubGothius............2. (two PCB's and more case ideas)
39. mikelanding...........1. (Put me 1 in)
40. Ian S.................1? (Subscribed)
41. judascleric...........1? (ErgoDOX is an awesome project)
42. sc3...................1. (In for 1 set of PCB's and maybe a case)
43. lowkey144.............1. (added to this list)
44. trygg.................1-2(if the price is right)
45. AloisiusFauxly........1. (At least PCB to dip in Canadian Syrup)

I like to have a little thing about what the poster had to say about it, so I can better gauge interest and prices, feel free to tell me if you want it removed, or updated.

Here is a list of people interested in receiving an assembled keyboard.
Code: [Select]
wiredPANDA
Hoggy
Fim
Obra
Demik?
bonega
Richie
Boli (1-2)
Icarium
itlnstln (assembled up to the keycaps in cherry brown)
Mazora ?
Zanth (assembled up to the keycaps reds or browns)
Thirdkind (natural Al, assembled, 'Otaku', Reds)
Sicyo (natural Al assembled)
speedkills
rburrows (would probably be okay with a kit)
OrangeJewce (1-2)
Surger
Quarzac
yobfish
domoaligato
gilsoriano
mikelanding
jochu
StaCT13


I am considering a soldering service: if someone else wants to do this, I'll add their info, but if no-one else wants to, I might do it. Anything to help the project!

List of people offering some sort of soldering/assembly service
Code: [Select]
The Profosist (USA)
Dork Vader (USA)
Geekabit (EU)
Dirge (UK)
localredhead (?)
(I am sure there will be others when the time comes)

If you're interested, PM me or post in this topic.
Please also tell me if I missed you, or have any mistakes.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 10 October 2011, 16:56:18
It have a slope if you look at the side picture but it was easier to only model some flat spherical keycaps. Final keycap shape is not determined yet and my be left to the user.

Yes the headers are for connecting the 2 halves.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: iWuzHere on Mon, 10 October 2011, 21:06:07
That looks pretty sweet, though price is quite high
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: demik on Mon, 10 October 2011, 22:06:21
that looks awesome
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 10 October 2011, 22:37:57
I am interested definitely.  How many do we need to get to the $400 range?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:02:33
I was thinking something between 5 and 10 but the more the better.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:18:18
That's not a very high number to make.  We should be able to get at least 5.  Input Nirvana should be getting at least 2!  ;)  More demand if we include the Korean community.

What kind of keycaps would fit?  Geninue double shot Cherry keycaps?  Any suggestions on the default layout?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: demik on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:26:21
since i dont know how to solder.. or actually build a keyboard.. would i be screwed in putting it together? im interested.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:30:52
It isn't very hard at all.  I just taught a 11-year-old to solder this last weekend.  There are a lot of youtube videos that teach you how to solder.  Take a look at them.  If you think you can do it, go to Radio Shack to buy a $10 kit to give it a try.  If you can solder that kit, you should be able to solder switches and diodes onto the circuit board.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: demik on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:33:06
i was actually going to try to solder this weekend lol. i want to make a switch box for a CST trackball, and i was going to try it on that since i figured it wouldn't be too expensive if i messed it up.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 10 October 2011, 23:52:11
The hard part of soldering is not cooking components.  The components on a KB are really quite heat tolerant.  80 some odd switches and just as many diodes would be plenty of training in order to not cook the controller.  Since Dox is specifying a teensy you don't even solder the controller, just board to board connections.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 11 October 2011, 09:16:35
Quote from: litster;428699
That's not a very high number to make.  We should be able to get at least 5.  Input Nirvana should be getting at least 2!  ;)  More demand if we include the Korean community.

What kind of keycaps would fit?  Geninue double shot Cherry keycaps?  Any suggestions on the default layout?


Yeah I'll probably take 2 for myself too so we are already at 5! Genuine cherry keycaps will fit just fine except for the larger keys.

For the layout I was going for something similar the original key64 but in qwerty. This will be completely re-programmable.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28376[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]28377[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 11 October 2011, 10:24:58
Quote from: dorkvader;428524
Why flat?

I could elaborate a bit on this, but I'll summarize: curved is hard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 11 October 2011, 10:26:40
And curved PCBs are friggin expensive.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 11 October 2011, 12:21:52
Looks GREAT !
Curving is a bit overrated, sometimes I think my kinesis is a bit too curved. What I really want is a split design so I could build cardboard bases and tilt the 2 sides anyway I want, all the way up to vertical, which I can't do with the fixed Kinesis, but I can definately do with what you are presenting here!

It would be a nice improvement if you can do 4 thumbkeys per side instead of 2. (The Kinesis Advantage has 6, and even there I find myself wishing for more). Anyway, the extra thumbkeys will allow you to have an Fn key in each side, which will make it far easier to type things like ) and ".  A trackpoint (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917) would be awesome too.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 11 October 2011, 13:15:45
Quote from: Dox
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28310&d=1318280038)


Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28376&d=1318342570)

Your keymaps don't match the keycap layout on the picture.  On the picture, the left side, top row has one 2x width key on the left and six 1x width keys.  The bottom row is also missing a 1x width key.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 11 October 2011, 13:55:10
looks great! an aluminum kinesis! i have comments if you want to hear them... they might sound negative tho, so i don't want to sound like i'm thread crapping.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 11 October 2011, 14:07:47
Thanks sordna, I'll look at what I can do to add some more thumb buttons.

Quote from: litster;428993
Your keymaps don't match the keycap layout on the picture.  On the picture, the left side, top row has one 2x width key on the left and six 1x width keys.  The bottom row is also missing a 1x width key.
I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.

Quote from: Lanx;429008
looks great! an aluminum kinesis! i have comments if you want to hear them... they might sound negative tho, so i don't want to sound like i'm thread crapping.
I'm want to hear your comments. That's the purpose of this thread.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Mazora on Tue, 11 October 2011, 14:41:16
Depending on the layout, I would be interested. By the way, it looks amazing.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 11 October 2011, 15:13:04
Quote from: Dox;429017
I know, the layout pictures are from the key64. I need to work on the correct one for this iteration.

No problem, I will make one with my preference and post it here.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 11 October 2011, 15:22:13
Quote from: Dox;429017
Thanks sordna, I'll look at what I can do to add some more thumb buttons.

Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 11 October 2011, 15:49:22
Quote from: litster;429071
Is it possible to make the two large outermost thumb keys into 2 separate keys each?
i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like this
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htm
not all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.
like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.  

I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 11 October 2011, 15:57:12
Here is my preferred layout.  The Fn layer is not done yet.  But for regular layout is very close to what i want given the fewer number of keys.  I use the left Ctrl, Shift, ESC, and Tab all the time (but not Capslock), and I much prefer Tab, BackSpace, Enter, and right Shift at where they normally are.  In general I prefer a layout that is as close to  regular ANSI layout as possible.  

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28410&d=1318366895)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 11 October 2011, 16:05:57
So litster... How do you get Win-L ?  Only common combo I see getting blocked so far...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 11 October 2011, 16:31:50
You mean the left Windows key?

Ah, I see what you mean.  You mean the Windows keys on the Fn layer.  Yeah, they don't make any sense on the Fn layer.  There is already a Windows key on the left side, so that should be good.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 11 October 2011, 16:49:18
Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest :)

NOTE:
I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

P.S.
Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 11 October 2011, 17:00:25
Id get one if its in the 300 USD range...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: cactux on Tue, 11 October 2011, 17:14:26
why not just taking baby steps first like.
Reuse an ergonomic shell like the goldtouch board (not expensive) and add a custom PCB + internal logic + switches.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 11 October 2011, 17:16:12
Quote from: Lanx;429095
i wouldn't recommend it, as in 2 seperate buttons up and down? you kinda want a longer 1.25 key to (rest) your thumb on.

i'd recommend something like this
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-vip-features.htm
not all those features, but instead of how ppl put the feet/tabs that make a keyboard slope on an incline, do that to the two boards and have 4 small feet/tabs(2 per side) so that you can slope it inwards.
like sordna, i'd recommend following kinesis thumb layout more than the c64, that is to have the 6 buttons on the thumb area, rather having extended buttons past towards the del/tab/numlk/enter area.

if you "force" yourself to learn to use enter/backspace with the thumbs, these aren't needed.

i've mocked the layout (since i actually had pcb's laying around) and for a 5 10' guy, the thumbs are really close, i think they need to be out more.

imo and prolly sordna has more experience, the spherical keycaps on a kinesis homerow are awesome, while the rest of the keycaps are regular cylindrical. I believe this is the best arrangement because the spherical will allow you find "home row" easily while moving towards the other keys freely with a cylindrical shape.  

I guess f-keys are done by some keylock?
Thanks for the input! I will try to work on the thumb area in general this week and post some new render when it's done. As for the keycaps, I really have no plan for this yet but I like the idea of the spherical home row only.

Quote from: input nirvana;429130
Hats off! Love it! I see the Key64 influence. My input: I would strongly suggest a serious consideration for an integrated pointing device. I've had my split Kinesis (see signature link) and I can tell you from over 6 months experience, that once you split, separate, incline, ergo layout, ergo key position, and macro, that moving your hand off the home row for cursor pointing becomes absolutely ridiculous. And that's the polite way of expressing the emotion. I have an Apple Mighty Mouse on the left and an IBM trackpoint on the right. I like touch pads and some trackballs, but again, leaving the home row becomes a cumbersome chore. As a matter of fact, the integrated pointing device really started the split Kinesis project.

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved, but then again, I rest my hands on the Kinesis palm pads. My hands are a mens large, so maybe that has something to do with it? I have a Kinesis Freestyle, and prefer the curved keywells, but the Freestyle is not a matrix layout nor does it have the columns height adjusted. I have not used anything like this particular configuration.

I didn't notice, but is there any work on an awesome programmable controller?

I have possible interest :)

NOTE:
I've recently had some extreme changes in my life that have dramatically shifted my time and priorities. I was about to administer the wood key cap buy, try and lead the custom controller project, and do some in-depth reviews with awesome pics of my Datahand, Alphagrip, Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project. I wanted to build up these areas for Geekhack since GH has done so much for me. I apologize to anyone that has been waiting for me to perform on various topics, as I'm not certain when I will be able to continue.

P.S.
Wood key caps will probably go through WASD Keyboards soon.
Thanks input nirvana, I will seriously consider an integrated trackpoint in the design.  I got to say that I spent a lot of time looking at that kinesis wiki.

That's some good news for the wood keycaps!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 11 October 2011, 17:21:23
Quote from: TheSoulhunter;429139
Id get one if its in the 300 USD range...
Good to know, thanks!

Quote from: cactux;429153
why not just taking baby steps first like.
Reuse an ergonomic shell like the goldtouch board (not expensive) and add a custom PCB + internal logic + switches.
Because I can, and the only way to get things the way I want them is to build it myself (my first and only cherry based boards are my doxkb).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: christoffer.braathen on Tue, 11 October 2011, 19:03:02
I'm ALL IN!!!

Looks great, and the idea of splitting the two parts completely is great.
Sing me up for one.

Best Regards
Christoffer Braathen
Oslo, Norway
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Tue, 11 October 2011, 19:18:28
Quote from: input nirvana;429130

Regarding keywell curvature: I may not understand Sordnas view of the Kinesis wells being too curved
NOTE:
 Kinesis, and fully update and document the split Kinesis project.

So far i'm in love with the depth and curve of the kinesis keywells (they could be angled/sloped towards the middle more i think many of the kinesis users agree on this).
yea there's zero kinesis hacking/modding atm, imma try to fill the gap with that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 15 October 2011, 23:39:37
I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28744[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sat, 15 October 2011, 23:42:41
That is nice!  More placement options.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bretrex on Sun, 16 October 2011, 00:12:24
I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 16 October 2011, 00:28:42
Quote from: bretrex;432108
I'd throw in for just the pcbs. It shouldn't be difficult to lay out the circuit board to be functional mirrored, allowing you to use the same board for both sides, helping cut the per-board cost. The full metal enclosure seems a bit rich for my blood, but would make an amazingly solid input device for those who can afford it.
The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Sun, 16 October 2011, 03:36:14
Do you have a plan view (top view) pic of the design?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 16 October 2011, 03:50:51
Quote from: Dox;432084
I reworked the thumb area a bit. Tell me what you think.
(Attachment) 28744[/ATTACH]

That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 16 October 2011, 09:45:32
Quote from: Dox;432116
The pcbs wont be symmetrical as the controller is on one half and the columns and rows of the other half have to be routed to the other side. The mounting plate will be symmetrical.
You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 16 October 2011, 10:16:14
Quote from: calavera;432162
Do you have a plan view (top view) pic of the design?

Here we go:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28763[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Findecanor;432166
That looks like the thumb-key configuration that the Kinesis has. I find that on my Kinesis, I can not reach for the smaller thumb keys easily, and I wish that there was instead a key in-between the thumb keys and the main group. For me, the problem is mostly with the "Alt" keys, which is the topmost thumb key in each of the Kinesis' thumb groups.

Having them on the same level as the other keys will probably help with the reach and you still have 2 extra buttons at the "interior" of each hand.


Quote from: dorkvader;432244
You could just leave the controller area blank on one of the boards, but I don't think this will work because I don't think the cherry switch is symmetrical.

Not really, leaving the controller area empty on one side side and using a symmetrical pcb would simply route the signals of one half to the columns/rows of the other one and not to the controller. And as you said, cherry switches aren't symmetrical.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Karacho on Sun, 16 October 2011, 15:26:43
In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.
Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.
I want one to :)
It should be reprogramable, right?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Quarzac on Sun, 16 October 2011, 17:49:12
I won't pledge definite interest, but when would you be ordering all this? I like the idea, but I don't know if I could afford it. If it wasn't for a good long while, I'd have to start saving now, and maybe I could do it. It would be good if only to force me to type correctly.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 16 October 2011, 17:51:57
I dont know, I still have a lot of work to do on the design and I'll have to save some cash too. I was thinking that maybe in 2-3 months would be good.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Quarzac on Sun, 16 October 2011, 18:03:49
Hmm... If I get a job, that could work. I'll keep up with this, and closer to the trigger date I'll have a definitive answer.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 16 October 2011, 20:51:28
Quote from: Karacho;432439
In my opinion and in result of my own tests, two buttons for the thumbs are best.
Additional thumbbuttons are not good to reach.


Well, being a Kinesis user I appreciate the additional thumbkeys. Of course the smaller keys are a bit harder to reach than the larger ones, that is inevitable. But since this is programmable, you would put slightly less frequently used keys there. We do want the extra keys, however, definitely... I like to have 2 controls, 2 alts, 2 win keys, and 2 Fn (2nd layer keys) keys so I can always avoid one-hand combos which are bad for rsi/carpal tunnel issues. The extra thumb keys allow doing 2-handed combos all the time; which is ergonomically superior.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 16 October 2011, 20:54:16
Quote from: Dox;432485
I dont know, I still have a lot of work to do on the design and I'll have to save some cash too. I was thinking that maybe in 2-3 months would be good.


I'll start saving now, too.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 16 October 2011, 21:39:31
With the new keys, I think I got everything on the first layer except F1-F12 and PrintScreen, Scroll Lock, And Pause/Break.  I keep most of the modifiers in the usual location as they are how I prefer :-).

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28807&d=1318819026)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sun, 16 October 2011, 23:19:17
Fantastic project Dox! Hope you guys are able to put this into production!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: slueth on Mon, 17 October 2011, 01:28:15
I'm interested but we will see about cash lol.. Time to get a work working.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Mon, 17 October 2011, 06:14:59
I was wondering if you could simplify the design. Here's what I was thinking.

(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/b.jpg)

Or something more drastic and "dynamic."
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/a.jpg)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 17 October 2011, 07:38:44
MM, that's a good point: Does that notch you take out in image #1 serve any non-aesthetic purpose?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 17 October 2011, 09:10:37
Quote from: calavera;432675
I was wondering if you could simplify the design. Here's what I was thinking.

Show Image
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/b.jpg)


Or something more drastic and "dynamic."
Show Image
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/a.jpg)

The first is possible and a good idea. The second one, I wont have enough place to fit the controller in there.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Mon, 17 October 2011, 13:52:41
Where does the controller fit and how does the PCB look like?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 17 October 2011, 14:08:16
The pcbs are not designed yet but the controller will be at the top right on the right hand.
Something like that (old pic):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28848[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 17 October 2011, 17:43:33
Quote from: Dox;429159
(my first and only cherry based boards are my doxkb).

Thought you said you had a WYSE around here somewhere?

It seems like every day my interest in this project grows. If we can get this under $200: I'm in for sure, under $250: good chance, under $300: okay chance, depends on timing.

Given the interest garnered thus far, it sort of looks like we've a shot of getting 10+ made, which is pretty awesome.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 17 October 2011, 18:00:21
Quote from: dorkvader;433129
Thought you said you had a WYSE around here somewhere?

It seems like every day my interest in this project grows. If we can get this under $200: I'm in for sure, under $250: good chance, under $300: okay chance, depends on timing.

Given the interest garnered thus far, it sort of looks like we've a shot of getting 10+ made, which is pretty awesome.
I got a wyse on ebay for the keycaps and to try some different switches (black and getto red) for my doxkbs.

Thanks for the interest, when this will be closer to completion I will post the prices for different quantity and hopefully that will bring in more people into it!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 17 October 2011, 18:38:01
Quote from: calavera;432675
Show Image
(http://i630.photobucket.com/albums/uu23/calaveratf/keyboards/b.jpg)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28864[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 17 October 2011, 19:05:47
Looks good!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Tue, 25 October 2011, 07:22:41
This looks very nice, I'm defo going to keep an eye on this thread.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Thu, 27 October 2011, 20:03:49
might wanna think about lining up the num-row with the fingers like kinesis/maltron. It's actually easier for me now to touch type numbers on a matrix layout, than ever before, and i'm a numpad snob (of course i'll always num-type faster with num-pad, but matrix num-row is very good).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 27 October 2011, 23:51:28
Quote from: Lanx;440816
might wanna think about lining up the num-row with the fingers like kinesis/maltron. It's actually easier for me now to touch type numbers on a matrix layout, than ever before, and i'm a numpad snob (of course i'll always num-type faster with num-pad, but matrix num-row is very good).

100% agree. All split matrix keyboards are consistent, Kinesis, Maltron, Typematrix, and even the TrulyErgonomic as well as the Fingerworks Touchstream (my photo below).
1 is above Q, 5 is above T, 6 is above Y, 0 is above P (assuming qwerty layout).

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30155[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 28 October 2011, 00:40:55
if we wanna go further with it, and i'm sure most kinesis guys think this way, if i have to type "1" i think "use pinky" if i have to type "8" i think use middle finger. i mean it's like going back to gradeschool and counting numbers with your fingers. If you guys are gonna do this, i think you should do it right, cuz no matter the layout qwerty,dvork or some weird customer layout... numrow 1through0 will always be the same.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Fri, 28 October 2011, 05:41:47
Hot damn, color me interested. I will definitely need to save some cash up, but this might actually be worth it. Ill follow this thread, and check out layouts etc when im not at work^^. Tentatively put me down for 1.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: laffindude on Fri, 28 October 2011, 09:55:39
Semi interested if the cost is <300 for a kit without switches(I can source the switch myself). This Seems like an excellent candidate for 1 handed board, if the cable is on the left module.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 28 October 2011, 18:58:33
So I wanted to look at the number of people interested in this, so I added up everyone that looks like they may be in on one
Dox is the only one who said they want 2.
p means they are dependant on price,
? means they didn't specifically say they wanted one, but looked interested from their posts.
Parenteses indicate notes I took from their posts.

So I count ~6 or so who are interested regardless of anything.
If the cost is acceptable the number grows significantly to ~12
The total of all people who look interested is 19 ( or actually 20 sets of boards, and 19 sets of cases.)

So if we got 15-20 orders of this, what would the price look like? 'Cause if it means it'll be $250-$350, we'll get a LOT of interest.

ErgoDox Interest check Compilation:

----
LIST MOVED TO SECOND POST: LOOK FOR IT THERE!!!
-----
Hope this helps!
---
Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 28 October 2011, 19:36:48
Let's do it! I want to solder something!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 28 October 2011, 20:00:16
Quote from: dorkvader;441469
Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.

You read it here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22412-Truly-Ergonomic-Communication-Sept-27-2011&p=431524&viewfull=1#post431524

I'm quite interested, especially if the keyboard comes with all the parts (including red MX switches), and preferably assembled and working :-)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Fri, 28 October 2011, 20:26:53
none for me, i'm just giving feedback from my experience modding a similar layout and using  kinesis.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 28 October 2011, 20:30:19
Thanks Lanx, updated.

Also, Sordna, I thought it was you, but I didn't check.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 28 October 2011, 23:00:28
Quote from: dorkvader;441469
So I wanted to look at the number of people interested in this, so I added up everyone that looks like they may be in on one
Dox is the only one who said they want 2.
p means they are dependant on price,
? means they didn't specifically say they wanted one, but looked interested from their posts.
Parenteses indicate notes I took from their posts.

So I count ~6 or so who are interested regardless of anything.
If the cost is acceptable the number grows significantly to ~12
The total of all people who look interested is 19 ( or actually 20 sets of boards, and 19 sets of cases.)

So if we got 15-20 orders of this, what would the price look like? 'Cause if it means it'll be $250-$350, we'll get a LOT of interest.

ErgoDox Interest check Compilation:

01. Dox...................2
02. DorkVader.............1p (see above)
03. iWuzHere..............1p (Looks sweet)
04. demik.................1? (Looks Awesome, worried about soldering)
05. Lister................1 (Definately interested)
06. Sordna................1 (Looks GREAT!)
07.
08. Mazora................1? (dependant on layout)
09. Input Nirvana.........1? ("Possable Interest")
10. TheSoulHunter.........1p ($300 range)
11. Christoffer.Braathen..1 (ALL IN!!!)
12. Bretrex...............1 (Pcb only)
13. Karacho...............1 (I want one)
14. Quarzac...............1p (Interested, but worried about cost)
15. REVENGE...............1? (Fantastic Project)
16. Sleuth................1p (will see about cash)
17. Jim66.................1? (Will keep eye on thread)
18. Ascaii................1 (very interested)
19. Laffindude............1p (if under $300)

Hope this helps!
---
Edit: Oh, and is "ErgoDOX" a good name? I read it somewhere, and liked it.

Thanks for the compilation, with something like 15-20 keyboards we could probably reach a price closer  to 300 than 400 but that is still very approximative.
ErgoDox is the name I came up with before I did the renders for the OP. As everything else, it's not final but I think it's not bad at all.

Quote from: litster;441489
Let's do it! I want to solder something!

That's what I want to hear!

Quote from: sordna;441506
You read it here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22412-Truly-Ergonomic-Communication-Sept-27-2011&p=431524&viewfull=1#post431524

I'm quite interested, especially if the keyboard comes with all the parts (including red MX switches), and preferably assembled and working :-)

I don't have a source for red switches but I wouldn't mind doing the assembly/firmware customization for people that doesn't have soldering equipment or experience.

Quote from: Lanx;441531
none for me, i'm just giving feedback from my experience modding a similar layout and using  kinesis.

Your feedback is appreciated, thanks!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 28 October 2011, 23:36:45
red switches are very hard to get.  If you want red switches, you are better off buying and gutting a Poker or Leopold tenkeyless or some other cheaper red-switch keyboards.  It might not be a bad idea as I think you can resell the Leopold keycaps, especially that "special" spacebar :-).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 29 October 2011, 13:32:58
Quote from: litster;441613
red switches are very hard to get.  If you want red switches, you are better off buying and gutting a Poker or Leopold tenkeyless or some other cheaper red-switch keyboards.  It might not be a bad idea as I think you can resell the Leopold keycaps, especially that "special" spacebar :-).
It's not that special after SP gets production up for the 6-post "combined" spacebars.

Hmm, I count 64-72 Keys depending on thumb configuration, so that'd be 1500 or so keys for ~20 orders. You could maybe order from Cherry direct in quantities like that. Or $0.609/key from mouser:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cherry-Electrical/MX1A-E1NW/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsqIr59i2oRcl0OtbIxCyKkAg8zsoDLHg0%3d

If it's any cheaper, I'd rather solder/assemble it myself.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Sun, 30 October 2011, 07:33:37
would these switches need those diodes? haven't ordered from mouser in a year, but i don't remember them offering or selling switches with diodes.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 30 October 2011, 10:42:56
I'd say since it is a DIY design, and diodes are so cheap, including them as part of the circuit is probably a good idea.

Lanx, some companies have the diodes on the board, and some put it in the switch. There is a spot for either an LED, or a normal diode on the cherry MX keyswitch.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 31 October 2011, 03:53:22
oh yea i've seen it where they line up those retangular diodes vertically.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Mon, 31 October 2011, 04:06:33
Quote from: sordna;440893
100% agree. All split matrix keyboards are consistent, Kinesis, Maltron, Typematrix, and even the TrulyErgonomic as well as the Fingerworks Touchstream (my photo below).
1 is above Q, 5 is above T, 6 is above Y, 0 is above P (assuming qwerty layout).

(Attachment) 30155[/ATTACH]

Yeah, the old 89 Maltrons have this layout, but the new 90 series have the 2 above Q.

(http://www.maltron.com/media/hi-res/3d_dual_89_90/90_3d_tb_black1.jpg)

I'm going to say that I'm going to agree with you too; I think that this board should follow the split matrix convention and have 1 above the Q.

P.s., when we are talking 300-400; what currency is this? USD?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gilgam on Mon, 31 October 2011, 13:38:44
I woukd like one, fully functionnal, i never solder anything ..., but without keycaps as i use either bépo or azerty
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: RColinTaylor on Mon, 31 October 2011, 16:28:15
Interested for under $300, capless. More or less curious about the final result as well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Chef on Thu, 10 November 2011, 22:06:07
This is really cool, please let me join this project.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: eagleeye on Sat, 12 November 2011, 15:23:35
I would *probably* be interested at $300 depending on the final design.

Please put me down on the list :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 12 November 2011, 21:30:56
Quote from: eagleeye;450669
I would *probably* be interested at $300 depending on the final design.

Please put me down on the list :)
I'll add you now. :)

Also, putting list in my first post in this topic instead on random page in the middle
---
Edit: added chef too. Sorry for missing you!

21 people so far and 22 or so potential interested.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 02 December 2011, 13:36:50
Note on the thumb keys:
Kinesis users will attest that the quantity of keys in the thumb cluster is a big plus. I have never heard of anyone unhappy with the quantity of thumb keys, and a couple wanted more. With my unscientific experiments, I have come to the conclusion that 2 additional keys per thumb could be added within the EXISTING 'range of thumb movement'. A 3rd key (low frequency) with a slight additional movement could be added. I may have a pic in my Kinesis Split Mod article...

Note on case design:
Being a Kinesis user I'm very in tune with this part....it seems to me that the case needs to be as minimal as possible where the butt of your palm would be -OR- larger with a palm rest "built in". Probably only Kinesis users will see this the way I do.

I'd like to hear some feedback on this.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: cyclonechuah on Fri, 02 December 2011, 15:11:18
I'm interested if it's under $300.

More interested in lilster layout thou, prefer qwerty. looks like my ordered double shot from 7bit won't be as compatible as this awesome split type keyboard.

For cherry MX switch, i can supply you, if you're interested.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 02 December 2011, 15:39:08
Quote from: input nirvana;462947
Note on the thumb keys:
Kinesis users will attest that the quantity of keys in the thumb cluster is a big plus. I have never heard of anyone unhappy with the quantity of thumb keys, and a couple wanted more. With my unscientific experiments, I have come to the conclusion that 2 additional keys per thumb could be added within the EXISTING 'range of thumb movement'. A 3rd key (low frequency) with a slight additional movement could be added. I may have a pic in my Kinesis Split Mod article...

Note on case design:
Being a Kinesis user I'm very in tune with this part....it seems to me that the case needs to be as minimal as possible where the butt of your palm would be -OR- larger with a palm rest "built in". Probably only Kinesis users will see this the way I do.

I'd like to hear some feedback on this.
Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.
I've been working a lot recently and I didn't had much time to put on this but I will continue as soon as I can. I want this to happen.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 02 December 2011, 22:48:00
Do we have any notion of what the real price will be yet, or what the time frame for completion is?  Is $400 still a good estimate?  And is that for just the case and PCB?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 03 December 2011, 04:46:49
Wow!  I want one.  Please count me.

As a kinesis user, I'd prefer the extra thumb buttons.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 03 December 2011, 05:15:43
Would it be possible to add holes to screw in 'legs'?

Saw a photo a long while back showing a metal keyboard that had holes to screw in some pegs (these had a threaded metal shaft and a rubber base).  If there's two or three holes in line, then the user can choose the hole to control the tent.

Just an idea, sadly it adds a bit to the cost.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 03 December 2011, 05:34:53
Here's the link - http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22796-Aluminum-alloy-anodizing-shell-for-poker-pro-orders&highlight=poker+case
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 December 2011, 11:12:56
Quote from: hoggy;463281
Would it be possible to add holes to screw in 'legs'?

Saw a photo a long while back showing a metal keyboard that had holes to screw in some pegs (these had a threaded metal shaft and a rubber base).  If there's two or three holes in line, then the user can choose the hole to control the tent.

Just an idea, sadly it adds a bit to the cost.

Sounds easy enough to DIY. I didn't bother mentioning preferences about angling/tenting because as long as the keyboard halves are compact and flat, you can easily prop and tent them any way you want by carving a piece or foam to use as a base, or cutting and gluing wine corks as pegs, or even building inclines from cardboard :-)
But yes, it's a good idea to have holes in the case bottom, but that's easy enough to drill ourselves too if it ends up adding more cost.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 03 December 2011, 12:53:02
Quote from: cyclonechuah;462999
I'm interested if it's under $300.

More interested in lilster layout thou, prefer qwerty. looks like my ordered double shot from 7bit won't be as compatible as this awesome split type keyboard.

For cherry MX switch, i can supply you, if you're interested.
interest checked (and added to the list)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 03 December 2011, 13:23:43
Could you add me to the list, please?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sat, 03 December 2011, 15:13:43
It is so awesome that we have so many keyboard projects going on here.  Really look forward to this one.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gilgam on Sat, 03 December 2011, 15:50:04
Add me on the list please.
for everything (the switches i may get them from the group buy).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Skoobs on Sun, 04 December 2011, 03:09:29
I would be interested, but it looks like the keyboard was designed without thought for the functionality. there isnt even enough keys for all of the standard keys on a keyboard. heres my thoughts: you need to have all of the standard keys exactly where you would expect to find them. i would put space on both sides on thumb keys, and the second thumb key could be CTRL on the left and ALT on the right. the row on the bottom needs another key (underneith the shift keys on both sides) so that the bottom row can be F1 through F12. the thick vertical keys (on the inside of the setup) should be split up to make sure you have enough keys for every standard key to be where it should be in a qewrty layout. i personally would ditch anything (besides numbers) that can be on a number pad, such as home, page up, page down, end, and the arrow keys. maybe the escape key should be split up to fit the tilde next to it. plus, it could then work with novelty escape keys. (or you could move the esc key up to where it says ergodox, and put ergodox next to the lights on the right hand pad. i think that would look cool.

all in all, i love the idea, but i think it needs a major rework before i would commit money to the end product.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 04 December 2011, 03:33:16
Quote from: Skoobs;463795
I would be interested, but it looks like the keyboard was designed without thought for the functionality. there isnt even enough keys for all of the standard keys on a keyboard. heres my thoughts: you need to have all of the standard keys exactly where you would expect to find them. i would put space on both sides on thumb keys, and the second thumb key could be CTRL on the left and ALT on the right. the row on the bottom needs another key (underneith the shift keys on both sides) so that the bottom row can be F1 through F12. the thick vertical keys (on the inside of the setup) should be split up to make sure you have enough keys for every standard key to be where it should be in a qewrty layout. i personally would ditch anything (besides numbers) that can be on a number pad, such as home, page up, page down, end, and the arrow keys. maybe the escape key should be split up to fit the tilde next to it. plus, it could then work with novelty escape keys. (or you could move the esc key up to where it says ergodox, and put ergodox next to the lights on the right hand pad. i think that would look cool.

all in all, i love the idea, but i think it needs a major rework before i would commit money to the end product.
Then, you will have to make your own because I don't agree with the majority of your points. Thanks for your impressions.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kurk on Sun, 04 December 2011, 06:07:24
Wow, how could I have overlooked thuis thread until now ? I am absolutely interested if the price doesnt exceed 300 usd by too much. It will be fully programmable, right?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gilgam on Sun, 04 December 2011, 06:50:35
Indeed :-)

The more specific you are the less orders you'll get...
The 68 keys layout is not my favorite, but such a small ergo keyboard is pure temptation.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 05 December 2011, 13:04:32
Quote from: Kurrk;463825
Wow, how could I have overlooked thuis thread until now ? I am absolutely interested if the price doesnt exceed 300 usd by too much. It will be fully programmable, right?
Adding you now. Glad you're interested. :p

Quote from: gilgam;463558
Add me on the list please.
for everything (the switches i may get them from the group buy).
Adding you as well.

Quote from: ripster;463919
For the record I am not interested.
Added.

----
Dox, any ideas what the cost would be if we had ~25 orders or so? I imagine the machining costs wolud be lower/person than if there was only 5 or so.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kindari on Sun, 11 December 2011, 17:34:57
Quote from: litster;463533
It is so awesome that we have so many keyboard projects going on here.  Really look forward to this one.

Can you mention some other custom projects on here? I found this one and the Phantom only.

I'm interested in designing a custom ergonomic ANSI based board, and I'm looking for learning and/or collaborators on the project before I really dive into it.

Thanks,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hashbaz on Sun, 11 December 2011, 17:56:38
There's also the Dox Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:19227), which is like a custom Poker.  Lots of good advice in the wiki though for any homebrew keyboard project.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gfresh404 on Sun, 11 December 2011, 21:40:31
I'd definitely be down for one but not for $400. Maybe around $200 though
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 12 December 2011, 01:26:05
Quote from: Gfresh404;468600
I'd definitely be down for one but not for $400. Maybe around $200 though

Added to the list.

Wow, we're getting a lot of interest!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 12 December 2011, 02:42:17
I think a lot of us have passed the phase of buying new tenkeyless keyboards and used IBM Model Ms.  We are in the next phase, the phase which you build your own keyboards!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 03:05:18
Just so we're clear, the standard will be Colemak with control to the LEFT of the A!??  OMFG!  That's my layout!  This is MY keyboard!  So epic!

I'm LITERALLY in keyboard nirvana right now!

The only thing I might want to change is get rid of the Alt-Gr, put the FN there and place the Enter key where the FN was.

I am DOWN with this $300 or $400 whatever!

. . . don't know whether I want to have browns or clears though.  I really need to try out some clears because I have no idea whether I'd like them or not.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 12 December 2011, 06:20:33
Quote from: inaneframe;468726
. . . don't know whether I want to have browns or clears though.  I really need to try out some clears because I have no idea whether I'd like them or not.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23914-Cherry-Switch-Tester-Holiday-Tour-2011!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kindari on Mon, 12 December 2011, 08:02:11
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34671[/ATTACH]
Hey Dox-

Is this attached image a possible alternative layout? I mean - would that work, or does something prevent that? Or is it possible to position the part above the keys vertically below them, thus creating a foot-bar type thing? I'm not really asking for this as much as trying to better understand the possibilities for keyboard designs.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 12 December 2011, 09:09:31
The only thing you need worry about is fitting all the required bits on the PCB.  So, on the right hand one the controller could live in that new location that has no keys without issue.  The question is whether the inter-board connections can fit in that tiny space left at the top.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 12 December 2011, 10:26:41
Quote from: inaneframe;468726
Just so we're clear, the standard will be Colemak with control to the LEFT of the A!??  OMFG!  That's my layout!  This is MY keyboard!  So epic!

I'm LITERALLY in keyboard nirvana right now!

The only thing I might want to change is get rid of the Alt-Gr, put the FN there and place the Enter key where the FN was.

I am DOWN with this $300 or $400 whatever!

. . . don't know whether I want to have browns or clears though.  I really need to try out some clears because I have no idea whether I'd like them or not.
I would say the "standard" is 100% programmable for this one. You should be able to set yours up that way, yes. I plan to have a similar thing, but with Dvorak.

Also, keycaps would probably be up to you.
I added you to the list!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 12 December 2011, 10:34:19
Who's running this project, Dox or dorkvader? I'm confused.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Mon, 12 December 2011, 11:20:17
You know, I'm not sure why I didn't look at this sooner. It looks pretty sweet. Consider me game if the cost doesn't exceed $350 by much. If MX clears are an option that would be quite swell. If Colemak is the standard, it would be great if I could get caps to fit QWERTY, but I'm sure that's something that I can do even outside of this project.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 12 December 2011, 12:21:07
Quote from: funkymeeba;468897
You know, I'm not sure why I didn't look at this sooner. It looks pretty sweet. Consider me game if the cost doesn't exceed $350 by much. If MX clears are an option that would be quite swell. If Colemak is the standard, it would be great if I could get caps to fit QWERTY, but I'm sure that's something that I can do even outside of this project.

An option:
Custom key caps from WASD Keyboards :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Mon, 12 December 2011, 12:27:40
That is a good thought, but I think that if I'm going to get a really fancy keyboard such as this, I might as well go the full nine with some PBT caps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 17:20:47
Oh. . . oh. . . when can production start?  I'm thinking about this all the time.  Not good during finals week!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 12 December 2011, 17:42:55
I still have a lot of work to do on this. I will probably have a few days between Christmas and the new year to complete the drawings. I'm currently learning a lot about electronics, I plan on using some multiplexer/demultiplexer  between the 2 halves to have a reasonable amount of wire between the boards.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Mon, 12 December 2011, 17:57:03
I'm definitely feeling no rush here. Heck, I have plenty of stuff I have to drop money on with the holiday rush and also moving into a new place. I'll definitely put some thought into what stuff I think might be neat for this in the next few days. I doubt there will be much, it already looks to be pretty slick.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 18:11:31
If I didn't have the money, I'd start a garage sale, EVERYTHING MUST GO!

Dox, you know you are the man, right?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:33:48
Quote from: Kindari;468780
(Attachment) 34671[/ATTACH]
Hey Dox-

Is this attached image a possible alternative layout? I mean - would that work, or does something prevent that? Or is it possible to position the part above the keys vertically below them, thus creating a foot-bar type thing? I'm not really asking for this as much as trying to better understand the possibilities for keyboard designs.


I think a better idea is to tuck the controller above the thumb area, since it looks like Dox will add more thumb keys.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 12 December 2011, 22:52:58
Quote from: sordna;468848
Who's running this project, Dox or dorkvader? I'm confused.

Heh, this is 100% Dox's game, I'm just trying to keep track of interest, so it's easier to figure out who's in when the time comes. I also plan to PM everyone on the list once some things are settled.

Dox: multiplexing would be great, that way we could keep it simple with the inter-board connectors. I'm only somewhat familiar with I2S, but I know there are other methods for chip-to-chip communication.

There's even a chance you could make the halves somewhat symmetrical, with a master/slave chip, so you can plug in either half into the computer. The "master" would be the one attached to USB of course. Just an idea. There isn't really a benefit to this, but you would have the option to do away with the board connections, and just connect each half to the computer, or connect one half (either one) to the computer, and plug the slave board in, and go. I imagine this could be done with some sort of diode arrangement, or something. (you could just wire a diode to the power on one board, so that it goes hot if it's plugged in, if the pin is hot, automatically set controller to "slave" mode. I imagine this can also be done with some sort of multiplexing arrangement or whatever you'd have to get the chips talking to eachother.)

Funkymeeba, I've added you to the "unofficial list".

Laffindude: there were some mockups earlier on with more thumb buttons, did you get a look at them?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 12 December 2011, 23:00:34
Quote from: Dox;463021
Could you indicate the location of the keys that you would like to add on my render, this sounds interesting.
I've been working a lot recently and I didn't had much time to put on this but I will continue as soon as I can. I want this to happen.


First thing's first, I am very literally a disinterested party in terms of the thumb buttons myself.  That is to say I like the way it is now just perfectly fine.  If there were a couple extra buttons I would not mind but the way it is now is awesome as well, I don't need any additional ones as when I was trying out a kinesis recently, I never actually used the other keys, just the two long ones.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34825[/ATTACH]

Okay, so there is A and B, here's another point where I don't care and either would be fine with me.

On A, the thumb would rest on the second long key from the left.  As the thumb extends it has better dexterity, I have noticed, and when the thumb distends and is tucked in closer to the palm of the hand it has less dexterity.  With the two buttons further away, the thumb is better able to distinguish and select different keys.

B is pretty self-explicative.  It is merely the way it is now with two buttons on the far end, looks a lot like the newer designs you did.

Anyway, sorry for the crap gimping.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 13 December 2011, 16:35:20
I will update the OP with the latest design to avoid confusion. Currently, it's like a kinesis.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28864&d=1318894674)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Tue, 13 December 2011, 17:10:17
Yeah, see, that is awesome!  I was just paying attention to what input nirvana was saying about having only two extra keys.  I only posted that picture because layout A in it was just about the only idea I had to share and offer up for criticism.  As it is, I'm probably going to up my stake in this to three keyboards.

All those buttons, hardly know what to do with myself!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 13 December 2011, 17:17:39
Dox, I like the new thumb keys, but I don't really like the number row. The proper alignment is: 5 over T and 6 over Y. Virtually all matrix keyboards are like this. You can easily achieve the proper alignment by moving -_ and =+ either in the two inner colums (where the 7 is in your new picture) or in the outer columns (as the longer sized keys). The latter approach is what Kinesis does since it doesn't have the extra inner columns you have (which I love by the way).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 13 December 2011, 17:25:28
Thanks, I will change the lettering on my next renders. The controller will be programmable anyway so you could use any layout you want!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: CeeSA on Wed, 14 December 2011, 03:46:27
what's about the trackpoint idea? do you think about it?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 14 December 2011, 04:04:24
+1 for trackpoint ... would be awesome, especially since the mini-guru isn't happening !
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 14 December 2011, 04:34:10
Oh and a soda fountain built-in!  Spikes!  We need spikes so that we can decimate our enemy if they ever attack us entrenched in our offices!

Oh, oh and you should build-in windshield wiper units so it can clean itself and your monitor.  Maybe a vacuum unit built into the bottom of it so it can keep a tidy desktop. . . better make it a wet/dry vac to handle any wayward bodily fluids. . . speaking of which, have you considered attaching a robotic arm that it could like you know reach. . . umm nevermind :tape2:
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 14 December 2011, 09:48:35
Quote from: inaneframe;470384
Oh and a soda fountain built-in!  Spikes!  We need spikes so that we can decimate our enemy if they ever attack us entrenched in our offices!

Oh, oh and you should build-in windshield wiper units so it can clean itself and your monitor.  Maybe a vacuum unit built into the bottom of it so it can keep a tidy desktop. . . better make it a wet/dry vac to handle any wayward bodily fluids. . . speaking of which, have you considered attaching a robotic arm that it could like you know reach. . . umm nevermind :tape2:
Almost exactly the same thing happened in Plato's Republic
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Wed, 14 December 2011, 10:53:00
Trackpoint would be lovely ;) As I type on an EnduraPro. My only other wish is Function keys, but I doubt that would happen. Depending on the price I might be up for this keyboard though. It's the only mechanical, matrix, split I can see....
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 15 December 2011, 09:15:36
As a design consideration: would there be a TP in the left? right? both? will there be one in a center module that both halves plug into? Is it still between the keys? I'm just not seeing how this works out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Thu, 15 December 2011, 09:27:20
If it were up to me, I would put a trackpoint on the right. I end up using my left hand for modifiers almost all of the time, so it seems fair to keep using right for cursor stuff.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 December 2011, 09:57:05
Yup, on the right, between the YUHJ keys, per Input Nirvana's research (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110) on the topic ...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 15 December 2011, 10:57:37
Quote from: dorkvader;470503
Almost exactly the same thing happened in Plato's Republic


I actually laughed out loud. . . polisci geek here.  Not to say the Republic isn't read by everyone because it is, it just takes a geek to literally laugh out loud at a lame joke about it.

Quote from: sordna;471350
Yup, on the right, between the YUHJ keys, per Input Nirvana's research (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110) on the topic ...


Chemical release in my brain at this.

I need to point out here that this will put the keyboard back up above 400.

I think dox should just keep it simple:

A) so it gets done

&

B) we don't lose half of the people who are interested now
         (25% from additional cost and 25% from those who do not like trackpoints)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 December 2011, 11:40:20
At least we should think about it as a future option, or make provisions in the case/PCB or something for folks that want it. I honestly think a trackpoint will attract more folks that it will drive away. Those that don't like it can always remove the tip anyway. The non-launch of the trackpointed mini-guru (http://www.guru-board.com/) was the top-voted disappointment (ping award) on deskthority... got twice more votes than the Truly Ergonomic delay.
My only concern about the trackpoint is that it could prove too difficult and derail the project. I'll leave the decision to Dox, we are just sharing some ideas/suggestions here.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Thu, 15 December 2011, 12:07:51
xnay on the trackpoint for me... I will be using a Filco touchpad between the halves, trackpoint would kill it for me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 15 December 2011, 13:51:47
You could have space on the PCB/firmware for that option, and the people who don't want a trackpoint can just not install it.

Innerframe: Hah, I'm glad you got it! I read it in philosophy class. It also gets discussed frequently in philosophy club
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 15 December 2011, 18:15:56
Position placed on the PCB for soldering it in:  YES!!  I will install one this way if given the option!

Built-in from get-go:  I'm not sure of the wisdom in this.

If we just have the position wired into the PCB for it then we could have the space for it on BOTH sides so it could accommodate both regs and southies.

This is a great idea if room can be made for it.  Thumb keys could be set up to act as mouse buttons etc.

Then we will need to have four custom keys in that region made.  Another cost layer for the individuals who choose to have it.

This cost should not be put off on those who do not want trackpoints as it will lower the already minority appeal drastically.  It is already a niche piece and we can only do harm by too much personalization beyond what is already there.


Put me down for 3!

I will sell my 30" monitor if I have to.  Or sell my car. . . whichever comes first.  :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Thu, 15 December 2011, 19:36:50
I don't think it would cost extra for getting the keys done. It seems like it would be an easy enough home mod. Frankly I don't really require a trackpoint, but I think it would be pretty neat. Making it optional is fine. I am fine either way.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 16 December 2011, 16:22:50
Quote from: inaneframe;468726
I'm LITERALLY in keyboard nirvana right now!

Input nirvana????
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 16 December 2011, 17:22:33
Hey Dox, I have two items to nag you about:

1)
I've spent a tremendous amount of time contemplating/using/experimenting with Kinesis key placement/add/delete/moves. I believe the most recent render is the best there can be WITHOUT moving fingers from the home row. This is almost the same as what I came up with. (my pic is pretty bad, and the added keys are covering some existing keys, but it's a mock up). It's perfectly ok to have keys that you need to move off home row to hit, but I decided I will not address that until I have made every effort to keep keys within the target range of fingers/thumbs and staying on home row.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35228[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]35229[/ATTACH]

These are some of my thoughts on the right hand keywell (matching your right hand render):

-The white key extreme lower right under the shift (pinky activated) was to possibly be a Fn key and is replicated on the left keywell. (I've added these 2 keys to my mod, it's quite excellent).
-The white key under the arrow key, next to the right of the space key, if a little lower could be Sordnas palm activated shift key (maybe use a long key?).
-The white key to the left lower side of thumb cluster, allows activation without leaving home row.
-The long white keys to the left of "HN" and "6Y" I was undecided if they could be square (2 square keys to the left of "Y" and "H") or the long keys you see for easier touch-type targets.

The reasons I have been so hell-bent on increasing the number of keys, and keeping them within touch-type range, was to be able to provide dual modifiers (per Sordna, Architect). These adds allow 5 keys per side. With what I have here, Command/Windows, CTRL, ALT/OPT, shift, Fn, can be used by either hand, and still have the ability to have dual enters or whatever. And still have the option of a couple keys that take your fingers off home row, if you really want to do that :)

2)
Regarding the integrated trackpoint (or pointing device). I strongly suggest that you don't feel you can't move forward without it, but don't dare move forward unless you have made provisions for it. Again, I've spent so much time on this. Ask yourself this one question: Why am I making this? A: Ergonomics. What's more un-ergonomic than taking your hand off home row and off the keyboard?. Easy options for pointing devices are trackpoint, multi-direction scrollwheel, and thumb scrollball (see Alphagrip AG-5, I'm a huge fan of these things).

Random note. You know this design is screaming to be mounted on chair arms, or similar. What about a pointing device option then? What about tenting this keyboard...even worse, you'd have to "un-tent" your wrist to use a mouse or whatever, then "re-tent". How stone age and RSI prone is that?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Fri, 16 December 2011, 18:13:05
Quote from: input nirvana;472390
Input nirvana????


You know it's funny because I was thinking about your username as I typed that yes.

I'm leaving your next post alone!  It's got some good ideas, that's all I will say.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 16 December 2011, 18:57:05
Thanks again for your feedback, I'll comment your points in your quote.
Quote from: input nirvana;472442
Hey Dox, I have two items to nag you about:

1)
I've spent a tremendous amount of time contemplating/using/experimenting with Kinesis key placement/add/delete/moves. I believe the most recent render is the best there can be WITHOUT moving fingers from the home row. This is almost the same as what I came up with. (my pic is pretty bad, and the added keys are covering some existing keys, but it's a mock up). It's perfectly ok to have keys that you need to move off home row to hit, but I decided I will not address that until I have made every effort to keep keys within the target range of fingers/thumbs and staying on home row.

(Attachment) 35228[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 35229[/ATTACH]

These are some of my thoughts on the right hand keywell (matching your right hand render):

-The white key extreme lower right under the shift (pinky activated) was to possibly be a Fn key and is replicated on the left keywell. (I've added these 2 keys to my mod, it's quite excellent).
-The white key under the arrow key, next to the right of the space key, if a little lower could be Sordnas palm activated shift key (maybe use a long key?).
  Palm key could be interesting.
-The white key to the left lower side of thumb cluster, allows activation without leaving home row.
  I'll see what I can do for this but as a vim user, I got to say that there is already enough keys for my intended layout.
-The long white keys to the left of "HN" and "6Y" I was undecided if they could be square (2 square keys to the left of "Y" and "H") or the long keys you see for easier touch-type targets.
  Yeah I was thinking that those long keys being further inside could be easier to hit.

The reasons I have been so hell-bent on increasing the number of keys, and keeping them within touch-type range, was to be able to provide dual modifiers (per Sordna, Architect). These adds allow 5 keys per side. With what I have here, Command/Windows, CTRL, ALT/OPT, shift, Fn, can be used by either hand, and still have the ability to have dual enters or whatever. And still have the option of a couple keys that take your fingers off home row, if you really want to do that :)
Dual modifiers is possible in with the current render for me but I understand that some people may need some extra keys and I will consider it.

2)
Regarding the integrated trackpoint (or pointing device). I strongly suggest that you don't feel you can't move forward without it, but don't dare move forward unless you have made provisions for it. Again, I've spent so much time on this. Ask yourself this one question: Why am I making this? A: Ergonomics. What's more un-ergonomic than taking your hand off home row and off the keyboard?. Easy options for pointing devices are trackpoint, multi-direction scrollwheel, and thumb scrollball (see Alphagrip AG-5, I'm a huge fan of these things).

I don't think I said it before but I would LOVE to have an integrated trackpoint. The only problem that I see is...... Where can you buy these things?? I think all the mods with trackpoint I've seen were from some hacked IBM rubber dome keyboards. I have to have something "standard" to be able to implement it correctly. I currently don't even own a trackpoint. If somebody have a source for these we need your help. Otherwise, the best I can do is the place a hole in the plate and PCB and put some traces on the PCB to connect one and leave the choice to the user. You will however always have the options to use mouse keys on a fn (or primary) layer.

Random note. You know this design is screaming to be mounted on chair arms, or similar. What about a pointing device option then? What about tenting this keyboard...even worse, you'd have to "un-tent" your wrist to use a mouse or whatever, then "re-tent". How stone age and RSI prone is that?
I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them. I know... I know... integrated pointing device....
Keep your input coming!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 16 December 2011, 19:20:26
Hehe, I N at his finest. Just one note on the palm key: Where you have it on your mock up, it's actually an extra (and welcome!) thumb key.
By palm key, I mean a key that will be lower than the thumb cluster, like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35247[/ATTACH]

But the location you put your key, is actually a welcome extra thumbcluster key, especially if you make it parallel with the thumb keys and align it so it lines up with the bottom edge of the space.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 16 December 2011, 23:40:30
Quote from: sordna;472518
Hehe, I N at his finest. Just one note on the palm key: Where you have it on your mock up, it's actually an extra (and welcome!) thumb key.
By palm key, I mean a key that will be lower than the thumb cluster, like this:

(Attachment) 35247[/ATTACH]

But the location you put your key, is actually a welcome extra thumbcluster key, especially if you make it parallel with the thumb keys and align it so it lines up with the bottom edge of the space.

The pic is/was from a group of photos with keys laid down 'just to visualize'. Others are shown in the Split Kinesis mod article. I took lots of crappy pics just to document and refer back to. I never had a formal 'Palm key' idea, although that one key has been in question a number of times for functionality and placement. If such a "palm key" were to exist, perhaps it's as easy as having it ride "high" so the palm doesn't have to lay completely flat and maybe should be a larger key cap? It may be a crazy idea, but the functionality could be awesome. Implementation is everything for something like this, and there may be no good way to incorporate it well, but it's certainly worth some effort. Anyones thoughts? If you have experience with a Kinesis that would help :)

This Aikon guys added thumb keys (3 per cluster)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35265[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Sat, 17 December 2011, 11:29:12
As far as a trackpoint is concerned, I think it'd be a nightmare trying to get them via any other means aside from old hardware. Alps has something of an alternative (here (http://www.alps.com/products/WebObjects/catalog.woa/E/PDF/Switch/MultiControl/RKJXL/RKJXL.PDF)), but at best it'd be only usable in the thumb location. I don't think this should be a showstopper regardless, unless you personally have it as a requirement of course :)

Have you considered a resistive LCD? It could be used for reprogramming on the fly, or data interaction from the PC. They are relatively cheap nowadays, and I've been considering them for my own custom project for a while. They do tend to need a beefier controller with more pins, and obviously much more code.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sat, 17 December 2011, 13:54:27
A deal could easily be struck with Unicomp for trackpoints and relatively cheap too.  You could probably even email them and order one individually.

If an LCD gets added, I'm out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 17 December 2011, 14:16:14
I will send an email to unicomp to see what they can do. The trackpoint is not an absolute requirement but it would be a great feature.
No LCD.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 17 December 2011, 20:03:28
Quote from: Dox;472850
I will send an email to unicomp to see what they can do. The trackpoint is not an absolute requirement but it would be a great feature.
No LCD.

I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sun, 18 December 2011, 02:37:29
Quote from: input nirvana;472983
I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.


So that's a no on individual sales then?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 December 2011, 03:47:47
I had originally called and spoke to Bob about using the trackpoint, and he said it probably couldn't be done. In retrospect, I think he misunderstood me, since the trackpoint that many of us have been robbing from KPD8923 keyboards is an unscrew-plug-n-play affair. I'm rusty on the exact discussion at this point (almost 2 years ago) as far as purchasing. I believe what needs to happen right now is contact should be made and info on what particular model of trackpoint to possibly be used needs to be fleshed out. Usability is a question, supplying is a question, pricing is a question.

I can be very unhelpful if given the chance.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sun, 18 December 2011, 13:00:40
Quote from: input nirvana;473145

I can be very unhelpful if given the chance.


Maybe you could make some contact with Alps or Synaptic?  Compare pricing, etc.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 18 December 2011, 16:26:14
Hmm, about synaptics.

I repair a LOT of fujitsu laptops, which all use synaptics touchpads. Every time a top cover gets replaced, we throw the old one away (Fujitsu doesn't want it back) and each new one comes with a touchpad. I could start saving the old ones if we could use them for anything. They'd be used, but would work. The hard part is removing them without bending the PCB.

Maybe not for this project, come to think of it. Does synaptics make touchpoints? I know ALPS makes touchpads, too.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:03:07
Synaptics used to, I don't know about anymore though.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 18 December 2011, 18:26:41
Quote from: inaneframe;473437
Synaptics used to, I don't know about anymore though.

I believe this was true a little over a year ago, but I'm not certain of exactly what and when. Re: Synaptic trackpoints
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 19 December 2011, 03:41:48
Quote from: Dox;472505
I got a few mounting ideas that I want to try and chair mounted is one of them.

If you saw the chair mount mechanics in the Split Kineisis mod article...I've looked at doing a lot of things, that one is the most simple, versatile, robust, and affordable.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Mon, 19 December 2011, 04:15:11
Quote from: input nirvana;473639
If you saw the chair mount mechanics in the Split Kineisis mod article...I've looked at doing a lot of things, that one is the most simple, versatile, robust, and affordable.


Oh man, talk about some serious nirvana.  I'm so excited right now.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Mon, 19 December 2011, 15:08:00
Put me down for one if the trackpoint is added :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 21 December 2011, 05:26:43
Any info on pointing sticks yet?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wrtcedar on Wed, 21 December 2011, 17:11:23
A split keyboard with mechanical switches is what I was looking for when I came to GH. So I'm interested. I'm not sure that I'm $400 worth of interested yet. I've still got some alternatives to think about.

I'm pretty aggressively uninterested in an integrated trackpoint, by the way. I would be interested in support (screw holes?) for later securely  attaching lifts to tent the board - something along the lines of what the Freestyle allows - along with a pad configuration on the bottom that would help keep it stable in that configuration.

I get a bit concerned when look at the list of OS X incompatibilities that are showing up with the Truly Ergonomic keyboard.  How difficult is it to program the firmware in a keyboard like this and how hard is it to address things like sleep/wakeup problems?

This is a very neat project!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 21 December 2011, 21:05:48
Dox says he's looking into a system to chair-mount it, so I'm sure you'd be able to tent it pretty easily using the same system. Right now all I can imagine is those screw-holes they put on the backs of routers, powerstrips, and the like for wall mounting, though I really have no idea what it'll turn out to be in reality.

I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

You'll have to check on the sleep/wakeup, but the microcontroller (teensy?) is supposed to be very compatible with different systems (one of the reasons I'm interested in this project). It's also pretty easy to reprogram them.

Want me to put you on the list as under $400?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Wed, 21 December 2011, 21:29:41
Quote from: input nirvana;472983
I did not have luck with this. I spoke with Bob. Maybe you can do better.
No, the trackpoint is not an absolute requirement, but your exploring all avenues is. You have a great project with a lot of insight. Don't take a last minute short-cut, it's too valuable. Information is power. I'll help you if I can. You can always PM me.


Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.
I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page (http://www.key64.com/keyboards) with the hope someday i will make it real.
Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.
keep up the good work !
p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:01:36
Wow, you did the Key64? I salute you sir!

You are an inspiration to us all.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:05:10
Quote from: nesiax;475584
Hi Guys, i have been disconnected from geekhack since last months and then i found this project. What a nice surprise to found somebody who was developing a project with ideas coming from the key64 keyboard.
I started designing the key64 at the begining of the year after the TE fiasco, none of their concepts are new i just borrow them from information i found at geekhack, deskthority and overclock.net and made references to them at the design page (http://www.key64.com/keyboards) with the hope someday i will make it real.
Geekhack is a wonderful place to anybody who find keyboards exciting, but is very addictive so i decided to stay away for a while, Dox: your keybord "the dox keyboard" is awesome, while i still prefer to be minimalistic in design, and follow the key64's motto "No more keys you can type on" i wish you make your design a reality, and share your experiences with us as you have one on the past with the staggered one.
keep up the good work !
p.d. Input Nirvana: i don't like the idea of a trackpoint inside a keyboard. I have a thinkpad and in my personal experience is so painful and is not as faster and as comfortable as a trackball, right now i use a logitech marble mouse, coming from a kensigton trackball.

I'm not a trackpoint fan at all. Not. At. All. It's a means to an end. I have only got 4 options to have a pointing device built into the keyboard so you don't take your fingers off home row.
1) Trackpoint. It exists.
2) Scroll wheel. Custom. Narrower, with the side-to-side movement. This would have to be made, I have notes and intend to try it out next year, but I'm not very hopeful of a positive outcome.
3) Apple scrollball from the Mighty Mouse or equal. I've seen these on some smartphones. The Apple scrollball does not move the cursor, but the screen, so I need to look into this more.
4) Thumb scroll ball (ie: Alphagrip)

Love the Key64, I reference it in the Split Kinesis Mod wiki.
I need info on your firmware ability!
P.S.-You never responded to my emails!!!!

Also about the chair mount. I am able to replicate the one that is shown, or modify a similar type of unit. If you want that to happen, PM me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 21 December 2011, 23:54:34
Yup, trackpoint is a means to an end. I so much want to be on the home row, that I configured mouse keys on right side of my keyboard that work when I hold Caps Lock (mapped to AltGr). A trackpoint would be far far better than mouse keys, and of course I would still have a mouse or trackball next to the keyboard.
But for simple things like moving the mouse from one window to another a trackpoint on the keyboard is great.

I mean sometimes you literally have to move your hand several inches and grab the mouse/trackball, just to move the mouse pointer less than an inch, which is a terrible waste, and that's where mouse keys or a trackpoint come in.

I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 22 December 2011, 18:25:37
Ditto, I much prefer a mouse to a trackpoint but I would never buy a laptop that did not have one. . . more specifically, I do not buy laptops that have touchpads.  They are the third bane of my existence next to table booths at restaurants and those three specialty USB plugs you find on various digital cameras.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35720[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35721[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35723[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35724[/ATTACH]

These are the things that I hate.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I still think it shouldn't be standard but if it is going to come with the PCB ready, a standard type, size, and configuration has to be decided on and it has to be one that we could get without necessarily ripping open another keyboard (though I have a couple rubberdome IBM's with trackpoints just screaming for me to do it.)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:14:27
Quote from: sordna;475632
I also own a Fingerworks Touchstream, which has mousing on the keyboard itself, and that feature is so amazingly awesome that you can't believe.

Hi, while i don't like a trackpoint in a keyboard (just personal preference), the idea to have a mouse on a keyboard is a must have, specially when you have to work with CAD applications, that could sound strange, but when you have to position the mouse on a specific pixel then the keyboard is the perfect companion because their input is not as analog as the mouse tends to be.
Another useful aspect is when you have to scroll through a webpage for example, that would be nice for me.
That's my idea of a mouse just using keys, while pressing the Alt-Gr some keys become the mouse, others the roller up/down, other the mouse clicks, and others will give you the mouse speed.
(http://www.key64.com/design/alt-gr-pressed2.png/image_large)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 22 December 2011, 21:42:26
Another idea would be to have this with the proposed function key with the locking mechanism available (speaking in QWERTY and Colemak placement):

Quote


qwert
asdfg
zxcvb



Quote


qwfpg
arstd
zxcvb



Quote
KEY:

> = Mouse Speed Increase
<  = Mouse Speed Decrease
⇖⇑⇗⇐⇒⇙⇓⇘ = Mouse Movements
0 = Mouse 0 or Left Mouse Button
ǀ = Mouse 1 or Middle Mouse Button
ǁ = Mouse 2 or Right Mouse Button
^ = Scroll Up
ⱽ = Scroll Down




Quote


^⇖ ⇑ ⇗ >
ǀ ⇐  0 ⇒ ǁ
ⱽ ⇙ ⇓ ⇘ <



OR

Quote


>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
0 ⇐  ǀ ⇒ ǁ
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ



OR

Quote


>⇖ ⇑ ⇗ ^
ǁ ⇐  ǀ ⇒ 0
<⇙ ⇓ ⇘ ⱽ



Or some variation therein.  I like the third variation the most.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 22 December 2011, 22:53:09
Here's my version of mouse keys, using it on an Ubuntu machine and KBC Poker keybard. Note that I use the us(altgr-intl) keyboard layout on all my machines, since I type Dvorak on the Kinesis but QWERTY on staggered keyboards such as the Poker.

Code: [Select]

xkbset m # enable mousekeys
xkbset exp =m # avoid expiring mousekeys

# Choose a keymap that has an extra layer (level 3),
# add compose key (shift+ralt) and caps lock toggle by pressing both shifts:
setxkbmap 'us(altgr-intl)' -option lv3:ralt_switch_multikey,shift:both_capslock

# menu to grave/tilde:
xmodmap -e 'keycode 135 = grave asciitilde grave asciitilde'

# rwin/super to altgr:
xmodmap -e 'remove mod4 = Super_R'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 134 = ISO_Level3_Shift Multi_key'

# caps to altgr (shift+caps locks it!):
xmodmap -e 'remove Lock = Caps_Lock'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 66 = ISO_Level3_Shift ISO_Level3_Lock'

# numpad (just the keys needed for mouskeys)
xmodmap -e 'keycode 30 = u U u U KP_7 KP_Home'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 31 = i I i I KP_8 KP_Up'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 32 = o O o O KP_9 KP_Prior'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 44 = j J j J KP_4 KP_Left'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 45 = k K k K KP_5 KP_Begin'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 46 = l L l L KP_6 KP_Right'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 58 = m M m M KP_1 KP_End'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 59 = comma less comma less KP_2 KP_Down'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 60 = period greater period greater KP_3 KP_Next'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 19 = 0 parenright 0 parenright KP_0 KP_Insert'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 47 = semicolon colon semicolon colon KP_Decimal KP_Delete'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 20 = minus underscore minus underscore KP_Subtract KP_Subtract'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 61 = slash question slash question KP_Divide KP_Divide'

# that's all folks


Just paste it into a script and it should work.
I've been using mouskeys on the Kinesis as well, without need for any xmodmaps since it has the embedded numpad.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Fri, 23 December 2011, 03:09:38
And curved is less stable. Sign me up for a few, if this goes to production.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Fri, 23 December 2011, 03:25:04
If it goes to production I'll buy three. One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wrtcedar on Fri, 23 December 2011, 04:21:56
Quote from: dorkvader;475576
I'm not sold on the trackpoint yet myself, but I imagine it'd probably be optional anyway.

...

Want me to put you on the list as under $400?


Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.

I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wrtcedar on Fri, 23 December 2011, 04:34:47
Quote from: Architect;476509
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)

I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Fri, 23 December 2011, 09:01:50
Quote from: wrtcedar;476530
I like the idea of the three modifiers being available on both sides. What would that change do to the position of the thumb block relative to the rest of the keys? Or did I not follow what you were suggesting?

The blocks look like Kinesis copies, which is good, but they both have an empty spot above the first thumb double key. In other words, have three single keys along the top, and three (including the shared corner key) along the back side, half surrounding the two vertical double keys. Make sense? The three top keys could be the three modifiers, with the back two the navigation keys, as for the Kinesis. I really with Kinesis just added that one extra key.

It would need to move out slightly from the other block. On the Kinesis an extra key should fit there, maybe if they moved the block out a millimeter or two.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 23 December 2011, 11:07:17
Architect, I don't think an extra key is needed, because this keyboard has extra keys in the middle that can be used as modifiers.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Fri, 23 December 2011, 18:49:07
Quote from: sordna;476669
Architect, I don't think an extra key is needed, because this keyboard has extra keys in the middle that can be used as modifiers.

Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.

Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 23 December 2011, 23:51:36
Quote from: Architect;476509
If it goes to production I'll buy three.
Added!
Quote from: wrtcedar;476527
Like so many others, I'm confident that I'd want one at $300. I might have to think a bit about a cost that's significantly above that, but I like this idea enough that I can't rule it out. How's that for a mushy answer? I guess "$300+" works for now.
Changed!
Quote from: Architect;476509
One thing though - I really need a third key above the first double wide in the thumb block. Let's not just use the Kinesis design but improve on it. That extra key will allow for three modifier keys on both sides (Windows, Alt, Control or Command, Option, Control)
(emphasis mine)
That's a good quote for the project. Improving on the kinesis would be pretty excellent. I've never seen one, so I really don't know for sure how that'd work out, but the cool part is: if you don't need any extra keys: you don't have to use them.
Quote from: wrtcedar;476527
I'm always surprised to hear ergonomic arguments in favor of the TrackPoint. I can't use them because they drive my tendonitis wild, so I view them as an RSI disaster. I used to work on projects with a group run by the inventor of the TrackPoint. This view wasn't very popular there.
Ugh, I used to have to put my wrists (and hands) in ice for 20 minutes, back when I was doing gymnastics. As a whole, Men's gymnastics is much worse on the wrists than women's, and pommel-horse especially so. Luckily, I don't seem to have any lasting issues. Anyway, I've not really been a fan of the TP, though I now prefer them to touchpads when working on customer's computers at work (I work at a warranty laptop repair center near college) because it's easier to use when the computer in question is up on shelf, so you can't see the touchpad. I'm still unsure about their use on keyboards, though.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be an option to omit them from the final design. Also, I'm sure this is the only way to keep everyone happy about it, as it seems that half the people will only take one if it's concluded, and the other half don't want it if it's there. Having it as an option seems the only way to do, despite the added engineering difficulty.

Quote from: Architect;476913
Yeah that's possible, but the beauty and usability of the three modifier across the top, and the hole there just looks made for it.

Well I'm game for a couple either way, but the three would be awesome if anybody else likes the idea.
I agree with you: it seems like a great idea to me, though as I said, I'm a little unsure about how it'll work out in practice, as I've not had any experience with using my thumbs on a keyboard like that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sat, 24 December 2011, 02:33:54
Quote from: Architect;476913
the hole there just looks made for it.


To what hole do you refer?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 24 December 2011, 13:08:15
Architect: you prefer the maltron thumb area?
http://www.maltron.com/media/hi-res/3d_dual_89_90/90_3d_tb_black1.jpg

I don't see how we can add that, but a 1x key out between the 2x thumbkeys and the normal keyboard keys is surely possible. Maybe that's what we're after?

edit: sort of hereabouts (in red).
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8480/topkbd.jpg

Or adding it a bit lower and extending the case, we can have a "palm key" for shift or whatever.

Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 25 December 2011, 01:42:29
Quote
Hmm, adding jacks for extra switches/footpedals might also be a good idea.

There's a whole world of accessibility switches out there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_access
They use a 3.5mm stereo jack.  The vast majority are overpriced, but it looks quite easy to construct your own.

Is that what you meant?

I think it's a great idea, and I'm prepared to pay a bit more for it.

I'm not too worried about the extra key, but I prefer your placement rather than shifting the block further out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fim on Sun, 25 December 2011, 06:09:28
I'd be interested in one provided that I can get it ready to be used (no soldering required) and you're willing to do international shipping (UK).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 25 December 2011, 11:24:23
I'll put you on the list, fim.

Actually, if it's only a couple, and no-one else wants to do it, I'd be willing to solder people's together and quickly test them for just the cost of shipping if need be. I like through-hole soldering.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: obra on Mon, 26 December 2011, 19:43:03
I'd love one. Having a trackpoint would be amazing.
I'd be willing to pay more for it to be fully assembled -- I know how not-handy I am with a soldering iron.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 27 December 2011, 01:06:20
I'll add you, obra.

I may do a soldering service, unless someone else wants to cover that. Either way, I'm adding a section for people interested in receiving a fully assembled product.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Tue, 27 December 2011, 04:03:20
First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: laffindude on Tue, 27 December 2011, 04:41:00
It is more ergonomic to have this layout since this board won't have the curvature of Kenesis. It'll be CNC machined, so you're paying for the billet anyways.
6 key... already explained many times in the thread.
Anodized aluminum caps will cost more than the keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 27 December 2011, 12:14:15
Quote from: Pyrolistical;478264
First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps :D  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium
That one made me laugh this morning. You are ready to sacrifice an ergonomic aspect of the keyboard to save a few bucks but you are interested in cold feeling aluminum keycaps that would increase the cost A LOT.

THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.
(I hope this one will be clear enough)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Tue, 27 December 2011, 17:46:48
Its more ergonomic according to who?  If you are going to make a claim like that do you have a study to back up a vertically staggered layout is more ergonomic than a true matrix?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 27 December 2011, 20:15:38
Right, so clearly any claims about a keyboard that doesn't yet exist are purely theoretical anyway.

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now). The reason they're not completely symmetrical vertically is to accommodate for the greater length of the middle fingers: that way you'll be able to type with them all at the same extension/inclination. A "normal" matrix 'board wouldn't allow you to do this.

Now in practice: we won't really know until the keyboards are done, and even then we wouldn't know unless they got tested professionally, but that's how the theory goes.

So: it's based on the fact that your fingers aren't all the same length vertically: it's meant to match up to your fingers, and as a result isn't "true matrix". If you don't have to move your fingers as much, or contort them very much to type, then it should be more ergonomic.

I'd also argue that the kinesis isn't "true matrix" either, but I don't have one, and it's beside the point and "splitting hairs", but it's my opinion that this keyboard and the kinesis should be ergonomically superior to a "normal" matrix keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 27 December 2011, 22:03:54
Quote from: dorkvader;478680
So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now).

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Tue, 27 December 2011, 22:07:57
I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 28 December 2011, 00:49:44
Quote from: Findecanor;478744
I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.
(http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/advantage_images/kinesis_orthogonal_keywell_609x390.jpg)
(courtesy of ergo canada)
It doesn't really look that way to me from the pictures, but I trust another user's first-hand testimony, especially when I still haven't seen one firsthand.

Quote from: Pyrolistical;478745
I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.
Firstly: don't lose heart! There are lots of POS boards (from Access-is, tipro, and cherry) that are "true-matrix" that you may be interested in. Typematrix isn't the only one.
Second: I can indeed compare the two. You raise a good point: the keyboards are different. Still, from what I can see, the Kinesis strives to take into account finger motion, and relative finger length by using keywells and a stagger situated to each finger. While we can contrast these keyboards in the keywell area, we can compare them in many other ways.

In fact, now that I think of it, a large breadth of comparisons can be made.
both are keyboards
both will be programmible
both use cherry MX keyswitches
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)
both are designed for ergonomics to some degree

There are some important contrasts you bright up:
the kinesis has keywells, this is "flat"
the kinesis isn't splittable, this is split.

While these clearly are differences, they do not solely define a keyboard. All similarities can be compared. If there were no contrasting remarks to be made, then it would follow that the two are indistinguishable.

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Edit: cherry G80-1950
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23642-eBay-US-Cherry-G80-1950-%28matrix-layout%29
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G80-1950PQAXB-CHERRY-COMPACT-MATRIX-KEYBOARD-BEIGE-/180679116605?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item2a1150873d
5 left at $79/each
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 28 December 2011, 01:52:19
Quote from: dorkvader;478808
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)

Of course, all Kinesis Advantage models are USB and even have an integrated USB hub for hooking up 2 more devices.

Quote
Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Yes, you are! But we need to be careful not to overdo it with the "wave" pattern. Subtle is key. Even on the Kinesis I'm not a huge fan of the keywells being so curved/deep, I would prefer them to be a little flatter actually.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bonega on Wed, 28 December 2011, 10:31:54
Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: iWuzHere on Wed, 28 December 2011, 20:16:20
Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 28 December 2011, 20:54:44
Dox, I think you should make it exactly how you have in mind.  You have my 3 orders and all the other guys.  I think that any suggestions such as drastic adjustments to key arrangement should just be ignored outright.  I love how people come in and try to piss on the project and mark their territory after people have already shown interest in it as is and before it even gets off the ground.

I can imagine the Wright Brothers almost having enough funds to get their plane built and some jagoff steps in and is all like "hey, ya' know I might possibly consider putting in a couple bucks but I think the wings should be straighter since it would save money."  You respond, "well the wings are not perfectly straight for a reason, they have a bump in them, otherwise it wouldn't fly as well."  Then him, "do you have any proof that the wings aren't better off perfectly straight, huh?  Mr. Wright?  Huh?"

ANNOYING.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 28 December 2011, 21:27:20
Thanks inaneframe, I'm starting to think that I should do it like I did for my doxkb. Build one for myself to test the concept and design and give my drawings to those who want to build some. That way, they would have the possibility to tweak the design to their needs or try to organize a group buy to lower the cost. I really don't have the time to manage a group buy and I want to get it done.

In the last 2 days, I tried to design a new case that would cost a lot less than the original I couldn't even afford one with the quote that I got. I'll post some pics soon.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 29 December 2011, 01:15:37
Quote from: bonega;478967
Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-

I'll add you

Quote from: iWuzHere;479338
Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.

I'll update.

Cool, thanks DOX. One difference here is that it'd likely cost a lot less for 30 cases to be made than a one-off for you. I suspect it's a little more reasonable for people to print up PCB's for the Doxkb, and come up with a plate than it would be for this project. Ultimately, it's up to you, though.

Have you considered getting someone else to handle distribution, etc of this GB (and just have you do the designwork)?

I'll look forward to new pictures. Hopefully we can get this down to a price everyone can afford.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 29 December 2011, 02:00:50
If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:03:34
Quote from: sordna;479444
If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

You are such a non-elitest. I don't know if I can be seen around with you.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: slueth on Thu, 29 December 2011, 03:24:44
cool dox hope to see this go forward.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Thu, 29 December 2011, 04:52:45
I was non-elitist before it was cool.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Human on Thu, 29 December 2011, 10:08:42
Better made it 2 seperated boards(left hand and right hand), LOL...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 29 December 2011, 21:26:42
Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36215[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]36214[/ATTACH]

2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.

To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Thu, 29 December 2011, 22:43:56
Looks nice!  Should be pretty hefty in weight, which is good  What parts are you using for screws?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 06:59:09
Thanks lister, I got to say that I took a bit of inspiration from your cases.
I will use some M3X12 countersunk cap screw like these.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36238[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Fri, 30 December 2011, 11:08:38
Not to rain on anyone's parade or efforts, but... add me as another for whom the aluminum case is the least interesting aspect of this keyboard. If I have to pay $400, more than half of that is for the case. I'd much rather pay $150-$250 with a wood or plastic case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 11:30:02
Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.
It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

If I was building hundreds or thousands of keyboards, I would get some injection moulds and a plastic case but for the low quantity, there is no magical trick around the cost.

The case will cost more than half of the keyboard no matter the material. Nothing prevents you from designing your own keyboard if you think you can do this for 150$ (this is what I thought before I did my doxkb witch cost me around 400 each).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:18:21
I think the effort on the case is worth while.  I hired a maltron a few years back.  The reactions people had went from positive (or weird) changed instantly to cheap rubbish if they picked it up.  Everyone who felt the weight assumed that if it's lightweight, then it's cheap and tat (as the maltron is much, much lighter than it looks).  

If there's a choice between materials that cost roughly the same, I'd recommend the heavier option.

I do have a weight limit on my keyboard shelf of 1.4kg...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:33:09
Quote from: Dox;480288
Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.
It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

Thank you for clearing up where the cost comes from. I wasn't implying that I could do better, I was assuming the cost was due to the aluminum.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:48:50
Dox is correct.  Material is cheap.  Cut time and design and the test runs to find problems of the design is the most expensive.

Dox, besides screws, what nuts are you using?  Thanks.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:52:54
No nuts! As the plates are aluminium, there will be screws on top and bottom and they will be threaded in the plates in the middle of the case. I'll post a cross section later.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Fri, 30 December 2011, 12:56:22
Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 30 December 2011, 13:20:34
So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 30 December 2011, 13:23:54
How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 30 December 2011, 14:49:42
Quote from: sordna;480401
How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!


[ATTACH=CONFIG]36282[/ATTACH]

Dox, one suggestion for your plates.  If you can use thicker materials for the middle layers, then you don't have to cut as many plates, and that should lower the cost due to fewer layers to cut.  You would likely still use thinner (1/16" or 1/8") plates for top and bottom layers.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 15:26:04
Quote from: mharrison;480375
Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.
I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.

Quote from: dorkvader;480396
So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.
The PCB will be double sided. 50$ per hand is a good guess. I pretty sure that machining stamping tools would cost a lot more than the current laser cutting.

Quote from: sordna;480401
How about 3D printing the case? Heck, with a layered case, it can even be a DIY cardboard affair at minimal cost!
It could be done but I'm not sure about the cost. I really don't think that it would reduce the price significantly. It can be done in cardboard as you said (and litster demonstrated) but I'm going with aluminium.

Quote from: litster;480498
(Attachment) 36282[/ATTACH]


Dox, one suggestion for your plates.  If you can use thicker materials for the middle layers, then you don't have to cut as many plates, and that should lower the cost due to fewer layers to cut.  You would likely still use thinner (1/16" or 1/8") plates for top and bottom layers.
I thought about it but the way the case is designed, there is not a lot of layer combination possible without having to machine the plates afterward (something I try to avoid to keep cost down).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 15:52:55
Cross section:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36287[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:16:55
Are you using all the same keycaps for all the rows since its a flat keyboard?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:25:21
Quote from: Pyrolistical;480551
Are you using all the same keycaps for all the rows since its a flat keyboard?

Let me answer this one: BECAUSE it's a flat keyboard, it should have normal keycaps (which have varying profiles) to give it a contour, just like 99% of the flat keyboards out there.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:27:11
Quote from: sordna;480560
Let me answer this one: BECAUSE it's a flat keyboard, it should have normal keycaps (which have varying profiles) to give it a contour, just like 99% of the flat keyboards out there.
This. But the keycap choice will be left to the users.

Edit: I did a single height of spherical keycap for the renders because it's easier to model.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:38:27
Dox, what software do you use to render in 3D?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:40:32
SolidWorks 2011
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: richie on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:42:37
Just read though the whole thread and I'm in if its less than $400 and ready constructed!
How far can the 2 parts be separated because I'm thinking I can use this with a Wacom tablet in the centre?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 30 December 2011, 16:47:17
Quote from: richie;480576
Just read though the whole thread and I'm in if its less than $400 and ready constructed!
How far can the 2 parts be separated because I'm thinking I can use this with a Wacom tablet in the centre?
I ordered a few different connectors and cables a couple days ago to decide what is the best way to connect the 2 halves. I plan on having 2 short cables coming out from each halve that could be connected directly together or connected with an extra cable between them to give more separation.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 30 December 2011, 17:31:22
@richcie, I'll put you on the lists.

About connecting, and interconnecting, it's not a HUGE deal, but are you plannning on carrying the ground as well? Ideally, you'd have the connector connect to the aluminium case, and carry that "ground" to the other side. This would connect to the USB connector at the end. In an ideal world, it'd also be connected to the ground of the computer (earth) for proper grounding techniques, and it won't interfere with the operation, but it's something to consider as well.

The difference between neutral and ground is important, especially for analog electronics, and safety purposes. It's not analog, and the voltage/current is too low to be a safety issue, but if we're designing it, we should do it right.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Sat, 31 December 2011, 02:10:14
Quote from: dorkvader;480396
So... $220 for the plates/case. If we are ordering the switches as a whole, we'll get super-discount pricing from mouser (like $0.79/switch). What are we estimating on 25-50 PCB's: $50/hand? we could do single layer, with using the cutoffs from the diodes to make jumpers if that'll acceptibly bring the price down.

Finally: WOW dox: that layer case will look awesome. I'd buy two if I could afford it. Have you looked into CNC'ing a tool for a stamping press? We could get them all manufactured in 5 minutes if we did that.


As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fim on Sat, 31 December 2011, 04:39:39
Btw, not sure if it's been mentioned or whether it's feasible but I was wondering if we could have a detachable usb cable instead of the built-in one (like the HHKB). That way, it'll be much easier to replace faulty cables and/or use extensions.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 31 December 2011, 10:21:02
Quote from: Ascaii;480866
As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.

Aw man, why come DT has to get all the good GB's? When's this gonna end? I want about a million of each.

Thanks for the info Ascaii.

Quote from: fim;480898
Btw, not sure if it's been mentioned or whether it's feasible but I was wondering if we could have a detachable usb cable instead of the built-in one (like the HHKB). That way, it'll be much easier to replace faulty cables and/or use extensions.

I think it should have a detachable one, though I'm not 100% sure on the internals layout and placement of the microcontroller.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Inf3rn0_44 on Sat, 31 December 2011, 12:21:29
Sweet design, i'd buy if it was 200-300.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sat, 31 December 2011, 13:09:49
The teensy has a mini-b USB port on the shortest side of it anyway.  If you wanted it hardwired, you'd have to mod it.  Given the shape of the keyboard and the likely placement of the teensy board, it doesn't look like the port will be external to the device.  This means the cable is easily replaceable by popping it open but not "detachable" on the fly.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 31 December 2011, 23:55:46
Quote from: Inf3rn0_44;481012
Sweet design, i'd buy if it was 200-300.
Sure, I'll add you to the list.

Quote from: inaneframe;481032
The teensy has a mini-b USB port on the shortest side of it anyway.  If you wanted it hardwired, you'd have to mod it.  Given the shape of the keyboard and the likely placement of the teensy board, it doesn't look like the port will be external to the device.  This means the cable is easily replaceable by popping it open but not "detachable" on the fly.
Yeah, I looked through the images, and that's what it looks like. I think on mine, I'd make (or buy) a mini-USB cable to plug into the teensy, and come out of the case, about a few inches (like in the concept art) then plug it into a normal extension cable for length. I want this to be portable.

I'll also have to look up which pelican cases it'll fit in.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Sun, 01 January 2012, 01:38:00
Here you go:

http://www.usbfirewire.com/uextendminib.html
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 01 January 2012, 11:22:10
Wow, angled USB extensions: nice. Thanks for the link inaneframe
Edit:
Quote from: Ascaii;480866
As for switches, I highly recommend people joining the switch group buy over at DT. We currently have a price of 0.60$ per switch. That includes reds and clears! Im getting my switches for the dox there.
Hah! It's 7bit's phantom order, also on GH!

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23572-Phantom-Custom-Keyboard-Group-Buy-%28Order-Only%29

On the ergoDOX pricing:

There are 38 keys/side at the moment, so I'm seeing ~$365 at the moment (110+50+ .60*38)*2 still not counting teensy, cables, connectors, keycaps, or shipping.

I wonder if the cost of the plates will decrease for an order quantity of 60 (30 pairs).


----
I think I'm going to program mine so I can type one-handed like that frogpad, that way if I'm eating chips or something, I don't have to worry about getting my keyboard dirty.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kindari on Mon, 02 January 2012, 10:43:01
Dox, what kind of shop does this have to go through to get the plates cut? I have a few contacts in a couple different machine shops that might be able to get a deal on if that's the kind of service you need. I'd be happy to at least look into it for you, but I don't know what to tell them to get an accurate quote. Thanks.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 02 January 2012, 10:52:49
Quote from: Kindari;481832
Dox, what kind of shop does this have to go through to get the plates cut? I have a few contacts in a couple different machine shops that might be able to get a deal on if that's the kind of service you need. I'd be happy to at least look into it for you, but I don't know what to tell them to get an accurate quote. Thanks.
The plates just need to be cut with a plasma cutter or something similar with high accuracy. I was planning to do the threading and the bolt countersunk myself to reduce the cost. I can send you a DWG file for the plates required for 1 hand later today. That way, you should be able to get an accurate quote.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 02 January 2012, 11:03:16
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36457[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 02 January 2012, 11:36:06
would water jet cutting work?  That's what we use for the Phantom mounting plate.  BiNiaRiS found a shop to do it for us.  for the Phantom mounting plate, minimum order is $110, but it shouldj't be a problem for you since you have a lot of plates to cut for each case.  They should also have 1/8" aluminum.  the downside is I think you will need to paint it.

For a full keyboard, how many plates are there, and how many of the plates are exactly the same?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 02 January 2012, 11:59:31
Water jet cutting can work too as long as it leaves clean edges. I need 11 1/16 plates by hand so 22 by keyboard. I can't tell you yet how many plates are exactly the same but there wont be many. Maybe 2 pair of 2 plates by hand are exactly the same.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 02 January 2012, 12:37:24
I looked at your case design again.  I see the differences between plates.  You maybe able to get more plates to be the same cut if you don't screw in from both the top and the bottom at different locations.  For example, have holes through and through from the top layer to the bottom layer.  You would need to use different screws and nuts though.  

Another thing is, if you can make the holes and cable cut out symmetrical, then you could potentially have more plates be the same.  One of the sides have two holes for cable out, if they are lined up vertically at different height, then you could have the same plates for the cut out.  I am not sure if the PCB design could allow this though.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 02 January 2012, 13:22:39
I want to keep my nut-less design (screw top and bottom) to keep a low minimum height.
I cant place the holes for the USB and right/left hand cable stacked vertically.
With a CAD drawing, the machine programming take only a few seconds (in modern machine shops) so I don't think I would save that much in having multiple similar plates as the major part of the cost is the cutting time itself.
Title: key64 updates and ideas.
Post by: nesiax on Tue, 03 January 2012, 20:07:21
Hi , I come back to work on the key64 (http://www.key64.com/), currently i am working on the first pcb prototype, i have made some changes regarding the initial design (http://www.key64.com/design), one of the most important is the introduction of 64th key, which is a special key just for the purpose of programming the keyboard without the need for dip switches.

Following excelent prinsvalium tutorial (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Design+your+own+Teensy+keyboard+in+KiCAD+how-to+guide), this is the 3d view of the left halve i got now:

(http://www.key64.com/news-1/3dview.jpg/image_large)

As soon as i finished it i will post the files at the key64 website for anyone who wants to adapt to their needs.

Another change: the keyboard will have 4 leds:



I also made some changes regarding the placement of the keys, i am sure it varies according to the hands shape of each person, but here is the pdf (http://www.key64.com/progress/pcb-left.pdf) if somebody wants to test the footprint and check if that really follow your hand.  In particular i have changed the position of the thumbs and redesign the wave.  I would like to hear comments about it, i am not sure if that is too exagerated but that's what i got from my hands, or maybe we could make a "standard" wave.

This is the idea i have on how to join the two halves:
(http://www.key64.com/progress/separation.jpg/image_preview)
is a cheaper retractable alternative that could be implemented in the ErgoDox.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 03 January 2012, 23:45:24
Hmm, some excellent ideas: are you an engineer?

1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.

3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard.  Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:
http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 04 January 2012, 06:53:17
I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p


Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 04 January 2012, 09:12:13
Quote from: dorkvader;482889
Hmm, some excellent ideas: are you an engineer?

1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.

3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard. Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:
http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html
1: I personally don't like this placement.
2: Good idea but I can't implement this yet.
3: There is no place for those beefy connectors and there is no place for a retractable cable in the case.

Quote from: Parak;483034
I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p
  • Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.
  • Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).
  • Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.
  • Use two controllers, each of which picks up its key layout from a single shared memory location. Each half also has a USB2 hub; the controller interconnect is a USB3 cable going into the hub of the other half, with the SPI traffic of step 3 happening over the extra unused wires of the cable.

1: no.
2: Yes
3: no.
4: no.
I will use 1 controller only. Some other ideas are interesting.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Wed, 04 January 2012, 09:59:22
Quote from: Parak;483034
I'll throw out some ideas for connecting two halves together that I researched for my own split project, generally from easiest to hardest, less awesome to more awesome, and obviously less time intensive to "wtf this is taking forever" :p

I'll add my thoughts from my own yet-another-split-project.

Quote
1. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables.

Doesn't work on OS X, which treats separate keyboards as fully independent — a modifier on one doesn't affect others.

Quote
2. Use one controller, with one usb cable, and bring the matrix over from the other half via some cable (ideally commonly and cheaply available).
Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)

Quote
3. Use two controllers, that are separately programmed, with separate USB cables, and small cable (RJ11 or such) interconnect using SPI (or similar protocol) between the controllers. This allows for things like mod keys on one half affecting the keys on the other half like in 2, but with flexibility of using the halves individually if so desired.

This is similar to what I'm doing, with three (or more) controllers. Each key unit will have a small controller (ATmegax8, probably) to scan the matrix and report to the larger master controller (Teensy or similar), which will handle programmable remapping and USB to the host. The wire protocol between key units and master will be good ol' PS/2 — it's proven in practice, has code libraries, and permits the parts to be tested independently: the key units with regular PS/2-to-USB converters, and the master with existing PS/2 keyboards. It also means that the master will, incidentally, itself be a reprogrammable multi-port PS/2-to-USB converter.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 04 January 2012, 10:38:58
Quote from: kps;483113
Needs a relatively large interconnect. (25-pin RS232 is the only common cable I can think of, other than plain ribbon.)

It's relatively simple enough to use a hardwired multiconductor cable, though depending on the conductors needed it might be hard to source in smaller quantities, and obviously inconvenient should the length need to be adjusted. One more possibility I could offer here, since we'd need around 13-15 wires, is an HDMI connector. They are cheap, small profile (even smaller as micro or mini), have cheap cables of any length, and carry 19 pins. The downside is that even regular HDMI connectors are SMD mounted - I could only find one that seems to have TH mounting and that's still very fine pitch, so soldering these in any case would be non-trivial.

Edit: That's a pretty neat idea with PS/2, BTW!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 January 2012, 10:48:00
Single fiber optic cable FTW !
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Wed, 04 January 2012, 11:07:39
Quote from: sordna;483144
Single fiber optic cable FTW !

I don't think there are any off-the-shelf parts that would let you power the remote unit over fiber.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Wed, 04 January 2012, 11:16:40
Thanks for the tip ! HDMI cable and connector will do ! at least for the key64 it fills the requirement for a 8x8 matrix  (16 lines), plus two leds and 1 ground = 19 lines which is exactly the same number of lines the hdmi cable offers !
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36574[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36575[/ATTACH]
However i am thinking that this will be done on the key64 version 2, right now i just prefer to measure and latter i will optimize otherwise i will never finish the keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Wed, 04 January 2012, 12:33:29
Quote from: dorkvader;482889
Hmm, some excellent ideas: are you an engineer?

Well, according to my university diploma , yes i am :)

Quote from: dorkvader;482889
1. nice teensy location next to the thumb. I much prefer it that way, though I'm not sure if DOX would want to completely redesign his.

This is the unused space on the board i didn't find any other place to put besides the other halve at the same place.

Quote
2. The programming LED is great. Having a programming mode is cool, but having an LED so you know when you're in it is great. Hmm, Another idea is to have a row of LED's somewhere that light up if you're in another shifted layer (for example, hitting capslock shifts to all caps mode. Hitting fn+shift might move it to mousekeys mode, etc. Having lights available to the user to indicate this would be great. Like one lights up when fn is pressed (or if you have a way to "lock" the mode) and another would light up when altgraph is pressed, etc.
That's a good idea, however, if you do touch typing that's irrelevant, i just use them for "debuging purposes" and for backwards compatibility with PC 104 keys.
I need to keep key64 minimalist in design, while i not pretend to start a discussion about how many keys a keyboard should have, just take a look at the apple remote control vs. direct tv remote control:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36576[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]36577[/ATTACH]
I would bet Directv remote control was designed by engineers.
While apple remote control was designed with people with usuability in mind (usually none of them engineers)
That's the way we need to think about keyboards, first focus on usability, then focus on engineering.

Quote
3. So you'd join them with a rainbow cable? Wouldn't you be concerned that it'd break, or pull out? I imagine you'd have feet on the keyboard, so that the excess cable can go under the keyboard.  Hmm, you could use beefy connectors like the ones that were used in then (unrelated) project:
http://www.amb.org/forum/a-delta1-hat-trick-of-sorts-t776.html

Some similar ones, i don't have the time to polish those keyboard details, i just want to follow the programming rule "First measure, then optimize", which implies i need it working ASAP, there is still a long way to go and optimizations could be done later.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 04 January 2012, 17:24:41
I like the HDMI cable idea a lot! I will order a few connectors and check the possibilities.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 04 January 2012, 20:12:56
Quote from: Dox;483408
I like the HDMI cable idea a lot! I will order a few connectors and check the possibilities.

Here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897) is one of the few TH ones, but it's with a panel mount (meh). Haven't yet been able to find others (that are purchasable), so it's all SMD otherwise.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kindari on Thu, 05 January 2012, 11:42:25
Quote from: Parak;483480
Here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897) is one of the few TH ones, but it's with a panel mount (meh). Haven't yet been able to find others (that are purchasable), so it's all SMD otherwise.

If it's just a matter of pins, I think Dual Link DVI Cables have even more - something like 29 pins (24 on the normal array, + 5 by way of the little dash pin with 4 regular pins around it). I am NOT an engineer :) .

EDIT: Also, what about wireless? Or am I just nuts. Like one receiver (USB) both halves connect to it. Or, the left half connects to the right half wireless, and the right half is USB to the computer.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 05 January 2012, 12:53:59
True, DVI-I may have more pins, but it's huge in comparison to HDMI.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 05 January 2012, 15:42:57
Quote from: Kindari;483872
EDIT: Also, what about wireless? Or am I just nuts. Like one receiver (USB) both halves connect to it. Or, the left half connects to the right half wireless, and the right half is USB to the computer.

Wireless is way too difficult to implement, and is complete overkill in this scenario. There's just a simple need to bring over the matrix pins.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 05 January 2012, 20:41:35
Quote from: Dox;483081
3: There is no place for those beefy connectors and there is no place for a retractable cable in the case.

I hate retractable cables too, but the beefy connectors are available at mouser. I'll get a part number soon.

Edit: They're 3M products:
The 3000 and D3000 (right angle) series latech-eject headers: Here's the wibsite:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Interconnect/Home/Products/ProductCatalog/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230O73D0ISNF9B3C3SI1000000_nid=D05Z5KX2YTit813Z8QWZB1glM0016ZP9KZbl
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Interconnect/Home/Products/ProductCatalog/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230O73D0ISNF9B3C3SI1000000_nid=PJBGTPPC88it813Z8QWZB1gl6W3K94MBQHbl

And a link to other 3M solutions:
http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/3m-tenth-inch-headers/555

Really, instead of improperly using an existing standard cable (HDMI) for a use it's not intended, we should be using standard connectors that are meant to do what we want. What will happen if I plug my TV up to this by mistake? Sure, I'd be stupid to do that, but what if a kid gets it? Mistakes can be made. I prefer .100 pin headers anyway, and everyone likes strain relief.

Plus you can use rainbow cables to great effect (or black/grey, if you want). These pin headers come in 10-64 positions, so we can get one exactly the right length. They're easy to terminate, and look awesome. You can't go wrong!
---
Anyway, that's what I think we should do. Misusing the HDMI spec (much as I dislike it) just irks me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sat, 07 January 2012, 21:11:39
I'd recommend not using any cables other than USB for the connection. If you want one side to connect to the other hang a hub off the one with a port off the back for the other to plug into. Most controllers (all I've seen at least) stick a hub first thing in the chain anyhow. Anyhow non USB cables will come back to haunt us for sure (always did in my experience at least). About the VID/PID don't try and get custom, ain't gonna happen. There are some generic blocks we can co-op I believe (been a while since I messed with this).

Edit: Yeah, two controllers, one with a hub if you like (nice esthetic but I don't personally care) and input USB port or two (can hang the local mouse off the other if you like - Kinesis does this). No ribbons, that'll be messy - to solder and maintain. No other cables, needs emphasis, you'll be chasing down all sorts of nasty issues (reliability, specs, etc)

Edit-Edit: Caught KPS's post. "Doesn't work on OS X, which treats separate keyboards as fully independent — a modifier on one doesn't affect others." Right. Maybe USB-HOST? Darn, might have to rethink this, cables scare me (must be a bad childhood experience)

Missed this comment earlier from dorkvadar "Architect: you prefer the maltron thumb area?
http://www.maltron.com/media/hi-res/..._tb_black1.jpg

I don't see how we can add that, but a 1x key out between the 2x thumbkeys and the normal keyboard keys is surely possible. Maybe that's what we're after?"

Yeah I'm good. I never realized that about the Maltron - never tried one either. Anyhow I love the design now, don't change a thing, just be careful with the cables (and I'm good for three, yikes ...)

Personal commitment, I'm 1-2P (1 with 2 more pretty sure, didn't realize how much DIY is involved (too busy to DIY these days)). Put me down for having somebody do the soldering, thanks.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 08 January 2012, 19:59:25
Connectors:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37015[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37016[/ATTACH]

1: Ribbon connected on the PCB with an external connector
Pros: trough hole soldering, easy cable length modification, can use a verity of connector outside the case (DB15 in the example).
Cons: cable coming out of the case.

I did some test, with the ribbon cable in shrink wrap, it wouldn't be too bad.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37017[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37018[/ATTACH]

2: HDMI connector
Pros: Compact, detachable cable at the case, multiple cables available, less DIY.
Cons: Not the intended use, some people might plug it into a tv :der:, SMT soldering might be hard or impossible for some.

3: Beefy 3M connector
Pros: Solid, detachable connection at the case.
Cons: Size (it fits in the case but I think it's overkill)

There is nothing like the prefect connector.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Barn on Sun, 08 January 2012, 20:26:21
Quote from: vASILII;486266
It is not fair

What are you talking about?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 08 January 2012, 20:54:54
Spambot, he made an identical post in another thread. Reported!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Barn on Sun, 08 January 2012, 20:56:16
Quote from: sordna;486318
Spambot, he made an identical post in another thread. Reported!

I've reported too. :banplease: Wow... you guys have some strange smileys.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 08 January 2012, 21:44:48
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37016&d=1326072984)

Dox, what is that cable connecting to the Teensy?  Do you have a link to where I can buy one?  I like it that it doesn't have the rubber arond the connector.  Thanks.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 08 January 2012, 23:57:49
Quote from: kps;483157
I don't think there are any off-the-shelf parts that would let you power the remote unit over fiber.

Quote from: litster;486365

Dox, what is that cable connecting to the Teensy?  Do you have a link to where I can buy one?  I like it that it doesn't have the rubber arond the connector.  Thanks.
Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.
---
Forget mouser: here's some digikey:
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40A-MB-5P/H2958-ND/597534
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40-MB-5P/H2955-ND/597531
---

Dox: I'm in favor of the massive 3M connector: It's great! but I also think option #1 will work just fine. Still, if it's available, why not go all out?

As I mentioned before, I don't think #2 HDMI is a good idea: too much con go wrong: not enough foolproofing. Maybe if we used an uncommon standard like 13W3, it'd work out.

You're right: finding the right corrector is hard, but if you can have it, it's amazing.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 09 January 2012, 00:14:09
Quote from: dorkvader;486437
Looks to me like a normal USB, but with the rubber taken off (or just not put on). I'll check mouser.
---
Forget mouser: here's some digikey:
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40A-MB-5P/H2958-ND/597534
http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/UX40-MB-5P/H2955-ND/597531

Thanks Dorkvader!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 09 January 2012, 07:57:51
It's a shame they don't have 20 pin mini USB cables, seeing as how they have the connectors.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Mon, 09 January 2012, 10:29:17
If an IDC connector fits, that's great. Ribbon cables are ugly, and need to be crimped to length with an appropriate tool (or a hammer..), but can be sleeved during that process to look better-ish. Labor intensive, obviously.

Of course, if something like a DB15 or DB25 fit height-wise, that makes it even more heavy-duty, as those cables are actually better for external applications unlike ribbon cables which are easier to damage. Height is about 0.5" from the PCB for either connector. Cables are fairly common (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10215&cs_id=1021501&p_id=542&seq=1&format=2) for either one (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10212&cs_id=1021201&p_id=1583&seq=1&format=2).

I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 09 January 2012, 13:14:09
Quote from: Parak;486604
If an IDC connector fits, that's great. Ribbon cables are ugly, and need to be crimped to length with an appropriate tool (or a hammer..), but can be sleeved during that process to look better-ish. Labor intensive, obviously.

Of course, if something like a DB15 or DB25 fit height-wise, that makes it even more heavy-duty, as those cables are actually better for external applications unlike ribbon cables which are easier to damage. Height is about 0.5" from the PCB for either connector. Cables are fairly common (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10215&cs_id=1021501&p_id=542&seq=1&format=2) for either one (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10212&cs_id=1021201&p_id=1583&seq=1&format=2).

I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p

On the fence?  Hell, it's gorgeous!   Sign up!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 09 January 2012, 13:21:24
Wow, 18 pages, 268 posts, this project is becoming the next mini-guru, hopefully with a positive outcome !

BTW, I still think HDMI is worth a try, with cheap cables easily found in any length from 1.5ft and up, it's very attractive.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 09 January 2012, 19:09:42
Unfortunately, a DB15 connector is too big to fit directly in the case.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37122[/ATTACH]

Quote from: sordna;486712
Wow, 18 pages, 268 posts, this project is becoming the next mini-guru, hopefully with a positive outcome !

BTW, I still think HDMI is worth a try, with cheap cables easily found in any length from 1.5ft and up, it's very attractive.

Thanks, I still think HDMI is worth a try too. I'm still waiting for some connectors I ordered last week. I'm not a fan of ribbon cable either, especially in external applications.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 09 January 2012, 22:15:56
Quote from: Parak;486604
I won't get into a debate (which it isn't really as Dox has the last word) which one makes more sense in practical or theoretical terms, especially since I'm still on the fence about getting this board :p
Added :p

Hmm, you're right about ribbon cables. I'll dig through the amphenol section of my mouser catalog and see what I may see. How many conductors were we after?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 10 January 2012, 06:40:38
Quote from: dorkvader;487020
Added :p

Hmm, you're right about ribbon cables. I'll dig through the amphenol section of my mouser catalog and see what I may see. How many conductors were we after?
Something between 13 and 20
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Tue, 10 January 2012, 07:08:01
Micro-D connectors would work great, except the connectors are $arm and cables are $leg :(
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Tue, 10 January 2012, 07:14:07
sticking with HDMI would allow the use of MASSIVE BLING BLING monster cables...1000$ cables, why not? xD

Heres another idea:
Though this might be a little complicated...we could just have two cat5 ports on each halves. It would require sleeving two cat5 cables together, but cat5 cables and connectors are even more readily available then HDMI. It would be possible to make a custom cable with a shrink wrapped ribbon cable that terminates in two cat5 plugs. Personally I like the idea of having the locking tab on the cat5...and with two heads we would have 16 conductors.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 10 January 2012, 07:44:46
Wonder if there's a dual cat5 block that has the retention tabs on opposite sides.  Easy single hand grip to remove would be nice.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 10 January 2012, 08:47:23
Quote from: Parak;487199
Micro-D connectors would work great, except the connectors are $arm and cables are $leg :(
well put! Made me laugh.

Quote from: alaricljs;487208
Wonder if there's a dual cat5 block that has the retention tabs on opposite sides.  Easy single hand grip to remove would be nice.
You mean like sideways? I've only seen upside up and upside down.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Tue, 10 January 2012, 09:01:30
Id be happy even if its two single cat5 connectors, I love the damn things :P
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 10 January 2012, 09:52:34
Quote from: dorkvader;487236
You mean like sideways? I've only seen upside up and upside down.

Doesn't particularly matter what the total block is oriented as, it just needs to fit the pcb/case constraints.  All I'm saying is that having the jacks oriented to each other so that the tabs are on opposite sides would make it easier to unplug the ganged connector.  You could even epoxy the 2 together .
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Tue, 10 January 2012, 10:38:51
RJ45 jacks are even taller than DB15 connector, unfortunately, so I don't think they'd work. There's really not much out there that's readily accessible and meets our needs :/
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 10 January 2012, 11:25:25
Quote from: Parak;487330
RJ45 jacks are even taller than DB15 connector, unfortunately, so I don't think they'd work. There's really not much out there that's readily accessible and meets our needs :/
Yeah, as you said, RJ45 are even taller than DB15 so there is no chance these will fit in the case.
Look at all these HDMI cables (http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240). I think this option might be the best.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 10 January 2012, 13:20:22
Okay, this is my first post so hi everyone and sorry if this has been said already or is considered blasphemous.

How about making it wireless?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 10 January 2012, 13:32:44
Okay, seriously, what's wrong with wireless? :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 10 January 2012, 13:40:52
Nothings wrong with wireless, except I think it's been mentioned and it's rather cost prohibitive since you'll need a total of at least 3 'units'.  1: the receiver on the PC end, 2: left hand board transmitter, 3: right hand board transmitter.  And that's only if you can find a tech that enables you to use 2 transmitters on 1 receiver and process both signals at the same time.  Maybe ZigBee or something similar, but other than names I don't know too much about it.

Then of course you need a controller in each board to give the transmitter something to send, and then a controller on the receiver end to tell the PC what was sent.  ouch, that's a lot of electronic gizmos.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Tue, 10 January 2012, 13:43:51
Wireless is too complicated unless there's a volunteer that wants to design the entire controller pcb with wireless built in, and write all the associated (very non-trivial) firmware from scratch :p
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 10 January 2012, 15:18:48
Quote from: Icarium;487406
Okay, seriously, what's wrong with wireless? :)


Quote from: alaricljs;487411
Nothings wrong with wireless, except I think it's been mentioned and it's rather cost prohibitive since you'll need a total of at least 3 'units'.  1: the receiver on the PC end, 2: left hand board transmitter, 3: right hand board transmitter.  And that's only if you can find a tech that enables you to use 2 transmitters on 1 receiver and process both signals at the same time.  Maybe ZigBee or something similar, but other than names I don't know too much about it.

Then of course you need a controller in each board to give the transmitter something to send, and then a controller on the receiver end to tell the PC what was sent.  ouch, that's a lot of electronic gizmos.


I think Icarium is volunteering.  Seriously.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Tue, 10 January 2012, 16:05:45
And, as the resident forum troll just unintentionally pointed out, wireless eats batteries, and you'll have your keyboard stop working when you're trying to snipe an auction or apologize to your girlfriend or something, sending you on a futile hunt for replacements, which are each bigger than the DB25 connector that was too bulky in the first place.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 10 January 2012, 16:14:05
Quote from: ripster;487498
Woohoo!  Vote for me often.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?25737-The-OFFICIAL-2012-Troll-Poll!


If you don't have anything constructive to add, I would ask you not to post here.
Thanks in advance!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 10 January 2012, 16:46:13
Quote from: Icarium;487406
Okay, seriously, what's wrong with wireless? :)

Batteries.

Hmm, just thought of something: we could carry power across two wires (very easy) and send the signals wirelessly. That is, if someone wants to come up with a workable solution that's not too expensive and will fit in the case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 10 January 2012, 16:53:31
It will definitively not be wireless. I don't want to mess with batteries.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 10 January 2012, 17:18:50
Well, anyway, I'm interested.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 10 January 2012, 18:55:48
Haven't read the entire thread, but I'm interested... as long as it comes with its own keys. I don't mind soldering on the switches though if that lowers the price.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 10 January 2012, 21:41:50
Quote from: ironman31;487605
Haven't read the entire thread, but I'm interested... as long as it comes with its own keys. I don't mind soldering on the switches though if that lowers the price.

I'll add you, though getting keys for it should be pretty easy via WASD, and the A-Z keyboard area can be taken from any cherry MX.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 10 January 2012, 21:51:52
Quote from: dorkvader;487679
I'll add you, though getting keys for it should be pretty easy via WASD, and the A-Z keyboard area can be taken from any cherry MX.

Ok, I was just worried about finding keys that would fit the layout.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Tue, 10 January 2012, 23:34:04
Quote from: Dox;487503
If you don't have anything constructive to add, I would ask you not to post here.
Thanks in advance!



First constructive post in ten pages, look what I found:

http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx

Might even be useful for colemak and dvorak conversions, etc.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Wed, 11 January 2012, 02:26:30
This keyboard looks very interesting, sort of like a splittable TrulyErgonomic (or split flat Maltron) with thumb keys similar to a Kinesis, sweet! As a Colemak and Kinesis user for about 4 years, and having tried a TrulyErgonomic and liking it but missing the thumb keys, this keyboard looks right up my alley.

I could afford $400, would prefer no soldering, and would require international shipping. Reprogrammability in firmware is a must, as far as I can see this is a given (excellent, because I'd like to make a few adjustments: number row shifted one to the left, arrow keys and second Enter key on the left hand, and command/option/ctrl on the thumb(s), like my current layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png)). It would have to work properly with OS X.

If I'd like it I'd soon need a second one, too, but I won't order 2 right off the bat without having tried it or someone I trust try and review one.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mjoytan on Wed, 11 January 2012, 09:44:36
Hiya!

Totally new here, and this caught my eye.  Cannot help but *covet* this lovely keyboard.  Nice work!  I've had the Kinesis Classic and Advantage for over 10 years now, and as much as I love it, this keyboard just looks a whole lot sexier!  Sign me up if you can make it for around $300!  Thanks!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 11 January 2012, 19:46:41
Quote from: inaneframe;487766
First constructive post in ten pages, look what I found:

http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx

Might even be useful for colemak and dvorak conversions, etc.
Wow, that looks pretty good! I looked on their order page, and I only see evaluation boards. I don't know where we can get the chips, and the company might want us to order 1,000 of them.


Quote from: boli;487822
This keyboard looks very interesting, sort of like a splittable TrulyErgonomic (or split flat Maltron) with thumb keys similar to a Kinesis, sweet! As a Colemak and Kinesis user for about 4 years, and having tried a TrulyErgonomic and liking it but missing the thumb keys, this keyboard looks right up my alley.

I could afford $400, would prefer no soldering, and would require international shipping. Reprogrammability in firmware is a must, as far as I can see this is a given (excellent, because I'd like to make a few adjustments: number row shifted one to the left, arrow keys and second Enter key on the left hand, and command/option/ctrl on the thumb(s), like my current layout (http://homepage.mac.com/boli/ars/80329_kinesis_colemak_small.png)). It would have to work properly with OS X.

If I'd like it I'd soon need a second one, too, but I won't order 2 right off the bat without having tried it or someone I trust try and review one.
I don't know how distribution will go, you may have to order two as a "leap of faith", or there may be more available (like what ragnarock does with his keycaps). I'll put you down for 1-2 if that's okay.


Quote from: mjoytan;487953
Hiya!

Totally new here, and this caught my eye.  Cannot help but *covet* this lovely keyboard.  Nice work!  I've had the Kinesis Classic and Advantage for over 10 years now, and as much as I love it, this keyboard just looks a whole lot sexier!  Sign me up if you can make it for around $300!  Thanks!
I'll add you!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Wed, 11 January 2012, 20:02:35
Quote from: inaneframe;487766
First constructive post in ten pages, look what I found:

http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx

Might even be useful for colemak and dvorak conversions, etc.

This looks  like AIKON.  Interesting.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 11 January 2012, 21:49:23
QFN *shudder*. I tried prototyping a usb hub based on a qfn chip - not fun to solder at all, even with a heat gun. Should have gone with a schmartboard or an assembly service in retrospect. Alas, most new chips of interest will come in QFN or at best QFP.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 11 January 2012, 23:08:17
Even QFP are daunting to me. DIP all the way (or SOIC at the very least)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 11 January 2012, 23:49:02
Quote from: dorkvader;488278
Wow, that looks pretty good! I looked on their order page, and I only see evaluation boards. I don't know where we can get the chips, and the company might want us to order 1,000 of them.


This is a negative?

All I have to do is get an evaluation, play with it and get a little bit of investment. . . I could make it worth it. . . talking to the manufacturer now.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kurk on Thu, 12 January 2012, 03:36:00
You can order sample ICs at a hidden corner of their web page:
http://www.sprintek.com/order/Orderics.aspx
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 12 January 2012, 06:37:03
Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 12 January 2012, 08:05:51
I want to be on the list. 400 $ would be okay if that includes everything. (Except assembly.)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 12 January 2012, 08:56:07
That controller or something similar is what the Chameleon controller is... lemme search

Linky do (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1243&sid=fc6c9f27f3485c6b9d540f6ab59421f7)

Also somewhere on Taobao....  couldn't find them.  Imsto is the source.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Kurk on Thu, 12 January 2012, 08:57:15
Quote from: Parak;488544
Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.

The SK7190 is a pointing stick controller [del]only, no keyboard controller.[/del] ...brain fart... ok, it's also a keyboard controller.
BTW, N-key roll over support is explicitely mentioned with the SK5102 chip: http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5102.aspx
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Thu, 12 January 2012, 09:02:49
Quote from: Parak;488544
Hmm, the SK7190 integrates a pointing stick controller too.. The chips look fairly low BOM, though I see no mention of key rollover/diode support.

The datasheet says it does ghost detection, which precludes n-key rollover. It may be that there are enough scan lines that this would not be a problem for a half-keyboard unit.

The nice thing about that chip from this project's point of view is that it can speak PS/2 and has a downstream PS/2 port, so it seems that the units could simply be daisy-chained.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 12 January 2012, 09:24:47
Quote from: Icarium;488566
I want to be on the list. 400 $ would be okay if that includes everything. (Except assembly.)

Are you interested in assembly, too? I'll add you after work.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 12 January 2012, 09:32:49
Quote from: Kurrk;488599
The SK7190 is a pointing stick controller only, no keyboard controller.
BTW, N-key roll over support is explicitely mentioned with the SK5102 chip: http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5102.aspx

Ah, missed the NKRO somehow. The SK7190 does specifically state that it has a keyboard controller though, unless I'm missing something again.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 12 January 2012, 10:16:12
Quote from: dorkvader;488629
Are you interested in assembly, too? I'll add you after work.

Probably not, I think I have to screw it up at least once to know that I can't do it myself. :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sat, 14 January 2012, 20:21:24
Sorry, I'm confused about the thumb keys in the latest design, at the front page I see two ideas. Are there two thumbers or six? If two then I have to regretfully bow out. Thanks -

(and BTW, yes for sure no bluetooth! I've had too many problems with it, I want absolute connectivity in a keyboard)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: moogatronic on Sat, 14 January 2012, 21:39:19
I'm interested in this and would like to be added to the list. I've not assembled something like this before, but that part sounds almost as fun as having this design actualized! I suppose i'm conditional on the price being at or under 400. Time to start saving I guess! =)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 14 January 2012, 22:47:25
Quote from: Architect;490770
Sorry, I'm confused about the thumb keys in the latest design, at the front page I see two ideas. Are there two thumbers or six? If two then I have to regretfully bow out. Thanks -

(and BTW, yes for sure no bluetooth! I've had too many problems with it, I want absolute connectivity in a keyboard)
As far as I know, the latest design has more than two thumbswitches. I believe the two-switch one was proposed at the beginning, and reworked into the kinesis-like grouping.

Edit: page three
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=432084&viewfull=1#post432084


Quote from: moogatronic;490804
I'm interested in this and would like to be added to the list. I've not assembled something like this before, but that part sounds almost as fun as having this design actualized! I suppose i'm conditional on the price being at or under 400. Time to start saving I guess! =)
Haha! That's the spirit, I'll add you presently.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sun, 15 January 2012, 04:14:17
Thanks dorkvader.

Related question, again sorry if it's buried in there somewhere but I didn't find it, what are the dimensions of the keyboard/each keypad? I'm concerned about the size, my Truly Ergonomic non split boards are really compact, and I've got a lot of controllers and such on my desk.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 15 January 2012, 13:15:21
Hmm, you'll have to ask Dox. Often you can have that as part of your cad software. I don't remember exact sizing, but it'd be pretty easy to estimate. Each "key" is 0.75 inches wide. by that estimate, I'm getting less than 7.2 inches/hand (at the maximum width). Ofcourse this will be less if you tent them. The bulk of the matrix (not counting the thumbs) is 7.5 keys wide, so it should be just over 5.6 inches wide. Since they are pretty positionable, I'm sure they won't take up that much space.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 15 January 2012, 13:55:08
Dimensions:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]37586[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 15 January 2012, 16:27:41
Hmm, as I look at it again, I think the "wave" is too much. Especially as you curve your fingers to type the lower row (ZXCVB) having to put the ring and middle finger more forward than the others feels unnatural.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sun, 15 January 2012, 16:53:49
Quote from: sordna;491200
Hmm, as I look at it again, I think the "wave" is too much. Especially as you curve your fingers to type the lower row (ZXCVB) having to put the ring and middle finger more forward than the others feels unnatural.

Saw your post and answered it over there. The wave works for me, very natural, I'd vote to keep it. With split or curved designs like these the wave helps to auto-center the hands.

The thing I'm working on is size, assuming about an inch between the hands in the picture above that makes for a bigger keyboard than I'd like, and I'm not sure the advantage of the split, ergonomically speaking.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 15 January 2012, 16:57:20
The split is essential, since people come in different sizes! As for the wave, I'm not against it, but I think it should be more subtle.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dzd on Sun, 15 January 2012, 17:02:53
I want one too!

This seems to be my "ideal" kb design. I was looking for a mix between Kinesis Advantage/Maltron 2D, and Kinesis Countoured - this looks like it!

I also think the Advantage/Maltron 2D designs should have symmetrical 3-modifier key layout and would be EXCELLENT with a well-placed touchpad!

I was going to put my next best hope in the Truly Ergonomic - but it's not even available!  Your DOX looks even better. Hope it's available soon.

One more thing - I thought it would be good to have an area below the keys to rest your palms. Don't know if that's been discussed here yet.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Sun, 15 January 2012, 20:12:34
I have a Kinesis and my biggest complaint is the moved += button.  I see you have moved it as well as other keys.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and create my own "ideal" keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sun, 15 January 2012, 20:41:27
Quote from: sordna;491215
The split is essential, since people come in different sizes! As for the wave, I'm not against it, but I think it should be more subtle.

Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 15 January 2012, 20:47:42
Quote from: Architect;491331
Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.

They meet, but depending on the width of the shoulders the angle changes, so at minimum the 2 halves should be able to be rotated. Not to mention people's positioning *preferences* can be freely accomodated. Also, some folks like to mount their keyboard halves on chair arms, etc. For example, I plan to tent this keyboard, build some angled cardboard props and make it semi-vertical. I wouldn't be able to do that if it weren't split.

The split is the most important feature in this keyboard, there are plenty non-split ergo keyboards in the market, Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, Truly Ergonomic, etc, it would be silly to create yet another.

This will be the first ergonomic, columnar layout, truly split (movable halves) keyboard, that's the whole point of this project.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: moogatronic on Sun, 15 January 2012, 20:51:51
I think one important aspect of the split is the inherent ability to then adjust the keyboard halves to varying degrees of tilt, as well as vary the distance between hands. I do not necessarily agree that the split is necessary if the keys are placed at angles that would not force your wrists to strain while flexing, as the standard keyboard layout would require. Halved keyboards however, allow you to dynamically alter your ergonomic situation on a whim. (This is at least the ergonomic theory behind the smartfish keyboard, though, on that board, they seem to have copied the terrible staggered key structure from 'standard' boards, which seem to assume humans have two right hands)


Quote from: Architect;491331
Maybe, OTOH everybody's hands meet in the middle too, as they do for all primates. I'm trying to understand if the split is a ergonomic feature, and why people think so. Not saying it isn't, just looking for the evidence.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 15 January 2012, 21:56:40
Here is what I mean "more subtle", look at the left half of the keyboard, I moved the 3 middle columns down a little. Sorry for the sloppy copy/pasting but you get the point.

EDIT: I just realized the innermost column was at same level as the one next to it. I think the innermost column should be a bit lower so that the index finger doesn't have to overstretch. So apart from lowering the 3 middle columns, I also lowered the innermost column too:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37629[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 16 January 2012, 01:23:39
Quote from: dzd;491218
I want one too!

This seems to be my "ideal" kb design. I was looking for a mix between Kinesis Advantage/Maltron 2D, and Kinesis Countoured - this looks like it!

I also think the Advantage/Maltron 2D designs should have symmetrical 3-modifier key layout and would be EXCELLENT with a well-placed touchpad!

I was going to put my next best hope in the Truly Ergonomic - but it's not even available!  Your DOX looks even better. Hope it's available soon.

One more thing - I thought it would be good to have an area below the keys to rest your palms. Don't know if that's been discussed here yet.

Added :)

That's a good point: like the kinesis has the palmrests, etc. I still feel that the design should account for that ,but not have them inherent, that way one can make or add one's own to suit one's tastes.
Quote from: Pyrolistical;491313
I have a Kinesis and my biggest complaint is the moved += button.  I see you have moved it as well as other keys.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and create my own "ideal" keyboard.

So you are interested too? I'll add you anyway.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Mon, 16 January 2012, 05:50:06
Quote from: dorkvader;491456
Added :)

That's a good point: like the kinesis has the palmrests, etc. I still feel that the design should account for that ,but not have them inherent, that way one can make or add one's own to suit one's tastes.

I think the present design is good. . If rests are desired then these (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Leatherette-Antimicrobial-Protection-WR305LE/dp/B0016OV5MQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326714496&sr=8-3) should work fine, one on each hand tucked in right in front of the keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Mon, 16 January 2012, 10:56:05
Quote from: dorkvader;491456
Added :)
So you are interested too? I'll add you anyway.

No. What I meant was I'll create my own kb
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dzd on Mon, 16 January 2012, 11:06:38
Quote from: Architect;491559
If rests are desired then these (http://www.amazon.com/3M-Leatherette-Antimicrobial-Protection-WR305LE/dp/B0016OV5MQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1326714496&sr=8-3) should work fine, one on each hand tucked in right in front of the keyboard.

Yes - you can add your own off-the-shelf wrist rests. The cons are that you have too many individual parts on your desk (especially if you have several other input devices/gadgets/whatever on your desk, like you had mentioned you do - I do too).

It'd be great if the DOX came with optional/removable palm rests - like the Truly Ergonomic, for example (looks like they did a good job with that - but I've only seen pictures). But I know this might be asking too much from Dox.

Quote from: moogatronic;491341
Halved keyboards however, allow you to dynamically alter your ergonomic situation on a whim.

Exactly. I like split because I can change my position at my desk throughout the day. I'm often at my computer all through the day, with a sit/stand desk. It's great getting to move the keyboard halves around on a "whim" to accommodate different positions. This really makes it feasible to be at your desk all day with a middle age body (heh) and not suffer (and in fact, enjoy it!).

I tried a split keyboard that was good for changing positions through the day - that was great. But it was still missing other features I wanted (mechanical, and matrix layout).

Another thing I like about the Dox is it looks like it doesn't have dedicated Function keys. I'd prefer Function keys on a separate, flat keypad/keyboard. (But the drawback is one more separate, corded device on your desk).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Mon, 16 January 2012, 20:32:15
Quote from: dzd;491720
Truly Ergonomic, for example (looks like they did a good job with that - but I've only seen pictures). But I know this might be asking too much from Dox.

The TE wrist rest is fairly impressive. It has plastic smooth nubs or 'bolts that fit into corresponding sockets, plus the screws and form fitting shape. Acts like a part of the keyboard, it adds some size to the board and I'm surprised to find that I like it a lot. But I wouldn't recommend the EDox try to do this, too much risk/work for little reward.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 16 January 2012, 22:08:04
I'm sort-of a fan of those wall-mount holes on routers and suchlike. Do you think they should be added to the bottom of the casing to ease in creating or adapting a tent or chair-mount setup? I sort-of feel that these things would be easier if there were something to grab onto.

(http://www.cisco.com/en/US/i/200001-300000/240001-250000/242001-243000/242657.jpg)
Thanks to cisco
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/routers/access/1800/1841/hardware/installation/guide/18inst.html#wp1053401
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Tue, 17 January 2012, 09:08:11
Quote from: dorkvader;492148
Do you think they should be added to the bottom of the casing to ease in creating or adapting a tent or chair-mount setup?


For my own long-slow split project, I'm planning on using ball joints — specifically repurposed camera flash mounts, which are cheap and easy to get — at the back edge of the units. This wouldn't work as-is on the ErgoDox case (can't tap a hole in the layered edge) but something similar might.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37764[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 17 January 2012, 10:24:21
Quote from: kps;492406
For my own long-slow split project, I'm planning on using ball joints — specifically repurposed camera flash mounts, which are cheap and easy to get — at the back edge of the units. This wouldn't work as-is on the ErgoDox case (can't tap a hole in the layered edge) but something similar might.

(Attachment) 37764[/ATTACH]


hm...shouldn't there be enough space to make a hole for screws somewhere?

this is hard to discuss without sketches...
I need a drawing board :p
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Tue, 17 January 2012, 11:44:44
Assuming the case is made out of something ferrous, one could build a ram mount using these (http://www.ram-mount.com/CatalogResults/PartDetails/tabid/63/partid/082065080045051051057085/Default.aspx) as the attachment point to the keyboard half. Expensive, but looks to be quite reliable, and there's no need to make modifications to the case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 17 January 2012, 20:40:28
Assuming the case is something ferrous, I have about 12 HD magnets that suddenly have a purpose.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Tue, 17 January 2012, 20:42:51
No it's machined aluminum, as it should be. If you want to use magnets you can epoxy or glue a thin sheet of steel to the bottom. If you want a tripod mount it's easy enough to tap and thread just the way you want.

I'm warming up to this, thinking of three again, update on the cabling?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 19 January 2012, 12:08:54
I would be in for one with Cherry browns if it's completely assembled at least up to the caps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Mazora on Thu, 19 January 2012, 12:15:42
Me too !
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 19 January 2012, 20:18:18
Quote from: itlnstln;494135
I would be in for one with Cherry browns if it's completely assembled at least up to the caps.
Added
Quote from: Mazora;494145
Me too !
I already have you (as #08), but were you also wanting the building service?

I also found out that there's a topic on Deskthourity now, so I'm importing the interest from there. I've got all the post's up to Jan 04.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 19 January 2012, 20:30:19
You mean this thread? (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1753)
Hmm, you made a typo copying my comment ...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: heuristicist on Thu, 19 January 2012, 23:31:03
I'm new here but would be willing to buy this if I could get it for $300 or less (preferably CAD, but I guess USD is close enough) including tax and shipping. I can probably assemble it myself but I wouldn't want to buy anything else, so I would expect the $300 to include switches, caps, etc.

As for soldering, I don't have an iron myself right now, but will probably want to buy one eventually... depending on when this keyboard is ready I might be able to help with that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 20 January 2012, 12:56:26
Definitely interested in one now, maybe more. I just need to learn how to solder surface mount stuff properly, that stuff always gets me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zanth on Sat, 21 January 2012, 19:14:34
Quote from: itlnstln;494135
I would be in for one with Cherry browns if it's completely assembled at least up to the caps.


I would be in for one, Reds or Browns, but I too would want it completely assembled at least up to the caps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: thirdkind on Sun, 22 January 2012, 19:51:53
I'd definitely be in for 2 of these, but after reviewing my list of wants, it almost sounds *****y:

- Assembled
- Natural machined aluminum color with white keys
- Otaku
- Reds

If I could get that (or at least a fully assembled base to which I could add appropriate keys), I'd take 2, definitely. I love my Filco Limited R, but a split keyboard with aligned keys is my dream.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: heuristicist on Mon, 23 January 2012, 02:12:59
BTW, now that I think of this, it would be nice if the bottom could have some notches (or something) to allow the keyboard to be tented/angled, like the Freestyle Ascent. Obviously the design is up to you but just my $0.02 on what would add flexibility :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tafryn on Mon, 23 January 2012, 12:26:08
This design is as close to my perfect keyboard as I'm ever likely to find. Count me in for one as long as it's around $300.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 23 January 2012, 12:50:22
I wonder if the case could have a palm rest...  Or maybe I will just attach one to it.  I do like the palm rest area on my Kinesis.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Wed, 25 January 2012, 11:56:40
I would certainly be interested but am with Thirdkind in that I would prefer natural aluminum and assembled as well.

Subscribed!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 27 January 2012, 02:24:41
You know, I have 50 people in the interest list, with 55 or so keyboards. I think we may be able to start getting into some real volume discounts here if we find the right place.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: KylJoy on Sat, 28 January 2012, 00:12:38
I'm on the verge...  This thing looks awesome.  With volume discount I'm about 95% in for one.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bbbbqq on Sat, 28 January 2012, 00:46:14
Hey dox, can you tell me the measurement of the staggering ? ie: how much farther "north" is the W row is than the Q row, E row, etc
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ksweber on Sat, 28 January 2012, 14:17:56
Hi! I am also interested in getting one of this special designed keyboards.

My preference would be:
 * assembled
 * natural machined aluminum color with blanc white keys
 * brown Cherry

One question left to me:
In many ergonomic guides a negative slope of the keyboard is propose to minimize wrist bending. Negative slope--meaning that the keyboard angles downward so that the side closest to your body is higher than the side away from your body. The side picture in the first post shows a positive slope.

Please add me to the list.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 28 January 2012, 14:34:57
Quote from: ksweber;501686
In many ergonomic guides a negative slope of the keyboard is propose to minimize wrist bending. Negative slope--meaning that the keyboard angles downward so that the side closest to your body is higher than the side away from your body. The side picture in the first post shows a positive slope.

I agree, the keyboard should lay flat and have a low height as possible, and it would be up to the user to attach legs/supports and raise/tilt it any way they wish.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 28 January 2012, 15:52:44
Quote from: bbbbqq;501340
Hey dox, can you tell me the measurement of the staggering ? ie: how much farther "north" is the W row is than the Q row, E row, etc
I can't speak for Dox, but I imagine it'd be like other matrix boards: where the spacing left/right is the same as up/down. If this is the case, then it'd be 0.75 inches between keys, and would work with any 1x cherry mx compatible keycap (see, if it's less than that, the keycaps would hit eachother, and if it's more, you'd have to move your fingers a lot more)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 28 January 2012, 21:10:11
He doesn't mean the space between keys in adjacent rows or within a given column, he means how it isn't a perfect grid and each column has a different y-offset to fit a hand, i.e. middle finger longer. :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Architect on Sun, 29 January 2012, 08:59:36
Remove my name from the list, thanks. Good luck with it, should be a great keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 29 January 2012, 12:27:16
I will, but I don't think you should let people in the ergo subforum get the better of you, emotionally. I don't see how removing your interest from here will help anyone/anything.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jedcred on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:09:45
I'm interested in this design (or at least, my shoulders are).  I don't have a problem with assembly.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gilgam on Tue, 31 January 2012, 16:56:57
hello

i want one of this, but what about switches and diodes ?
The group buy for the Phantom keyboard and switches is ending and i think i'll order some as the prices are nice.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 January 2012, 17:47:01
wasdkeyboards.com sells switches now, (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1.html) I bought and used some already.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 31 January 2012, 17:50:08
Quote from: gilgam;504655
hello

i want one of this, but what about switches and diodes ?
The group buy for the Phantom keyboard and switches is ending and i think i'll order some as the prices are nice.

Switched and diodes are the same as the Phantom ones. Standard cherry switches and 1n4148 diodes.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 January 2012, 17:56:56
Ah good to know about the diodes. Here, an amazon seller sells them for 1 cent each, so you can get 100 for $1 + $4.49 shipping = $5.49
http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-1N4148-Logic-Diode/dp/B0002KRC7C
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 31 January 2012, 18:02:44
I ordered over 1000 of them for my doxKB. The cost was something around 0.0015$ each.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 31 January 2012, 18:08:16
It would help if you mentioned where we can get them from at that price!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 31 January 2012, 18:27:48
Oops I put one extra "0" in there, it was 0.015$ each, your amazon link is better!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Tue, 31 January 2012, 19:15:27
Quote from: sordna;504699
Ah good to know about the diodes. Here, an amazon seller sells them for 1 cent each, so you can get 100 for $1 + $4.49 shipping = $5.49
http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-1N4148-Logic-Diode/dp/B0002KRC7C

lolwut @ Technical Details :D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 31 January 2012, 23:07:25
Quote from: Parak;504756
lolwut @ Technical Details :D
Quote
Precision machined 6 cut RCA connector with split center pin
Available in versions to fit three different ranges of TV sizes
It IS parts express (sell expensive components for audio). I think they just accidentally pasted it in there.

Jedcred and gilgam, I've added you interest.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Wed, 01 February 2012, 07:51:30
Where's this interest list being kept? I just want to make sure I'm on it.

Thanks
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: heuristicist on Wed, 01 February 2012, 13:29:54
Quote from: sicyo;505161
Where's this interest list being kept? I just want to make sure I'm on it.

Thanks

See the second post of this thread.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Wed, 01 February 2012, 14:30:40
Hah, thanks. Can't believe I missed that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 01 February 2012, 18:57:59
Quote from: sicyo;505480
Hah, thanks. Can't believe I missed that.
I had you down as #49

The reason I'm keeping it in post #2 is that I coincidentally was the first to post after DOX, and when I compiled the interest, I utilized the prime post real-estate.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: minnus on Tue, 07 February 2012, 20:40:58
It seems that the forum has rolled back a bit and my interest post was lost. I am still interested. Is there any way for people with interest to contribute in any way?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 08 February 2012, 00:05:34
Quote from: minnus;508810
It seems that the forum has rolled back a bit and my interest post was lost. I am still interested. Is there any way for people with interest to contribute in any way?
I have you and Salash down on the list. I'll update the second post. good thing I keep a backup on my laptop :p

I dunno: I'm keeping track of interest, to help out with that detail. I know we're still looking for a decent connector between the halves (the bulky 3m Ribbon cable one I found looks good, but I'm thinking ribbon cables aren't ideal. HDMI has been suggested, but I really hate appropriating it to this use (It's "wrong", surface mount, dubious strain relief available, etc)), and other ideas have been proposed) If someone wants to browse mouser/digikey for better exterior connectors that are low profile enough to work, that'd help. Also, I think scouting around for a shop that'll be able to cut the casings would be useful. Hmm, maybe we should  publish a "roadmap" of all the work that's been done (design, etc) and that needs to be done (PCB, fab, etc), and people can search, and propose ideas.

That said, The order would be like 100+ sets of those 11 or so "plates" that screw together, which I think is a fairly substantial order.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mtl on Wed, 08 February 2012, 07:27:05
Quote from: dorkvader;508966
I know we're still looking for a decent connector between the halves (the bulky 3m Ribbon cable one I found looks good, but I'm thinking ribbon cables aren't ideal. HDMI has been suggested, but I really hate appropriating it to this use (It's "wrong", surface mount, dubious strain relief available, etc)), and other ideas have been proposed)
You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 08 February 2012, 07:49:52
Quote from: mtl;509139
You could make each half a stand-alone keyboard. One half could also contain a USB hub for linking up the pair, so you only need one USB cable going to the host (PC, etc.)


The possibility of digital communication has been discussed. I think it's the best idea if anyone can find/write an implementation for it (Which is the hard part: that level of complexity adds a lot). USB would be a waste in this instance (It's not really means for inter-chip communications) maybe I2s would be better.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 08 February 2012, 08:53:31
If you're going with a dual controller design you might be able to cram PS/2 conversion into both halves and use PS/2 between the halves and then USB to the PC.  Halving conversion in both halves means being able to run the interconnect in either direction and USB from either side.  Might need a dip switch or some other method to tell each side its role.

This might even let you mirror image the PCB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 08 February 2012, 20:25:48
Quote from: alaricljs;509164
This might even let you mirror image the PCB.
No: there are some practical reasons we can't mirror it: first off the switches wouldn't fit. (they are asymmetrical).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 08 February 2012, 20:28:04
You can still mirror it if you provision an extra solderable hole for each switch, which shouldn't increase the cost at all.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Wed, 08 February 2012, 20:29:14
Quote from: sordna;509687
You can still mirror it if you provision an extra solderable hole for each switch, which shouldn't increase the cost at all.

That's what PrinsValium did to Phantom's PCB to support so many different layouts with just one PCB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Thu, 09 February 2012, 07:51:31
I know a machine shop that might be able to do it, let me check with them. They also could handle tumbling and can out-source anodizing and nickel plating (one of the main reasons I'm interested)

Also, as far as the connector we should pick something that is easily available and doesn't cause a hassle to be replaced. Couldn't a nice braided USB cable suffice?

UPDATE:
Got in touch with them and they can give us a quote if we provide a standard blue print showing dimensions and tolerances. CAD works too.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 09 February 2012, 18:04:06
Quote from: sicyo;510070
Also, as far as the connector we should pick something that is easily available and doesn't cause a hassle to be replaced. Couldn't a nice braided USB cable suffice?

A USB cable only provides 4 contacts, we need something like 14-20. Now, this would work out well if we had some chip on the "slave" 'board convert the keypress to something digital, but the current idea is to just transfer the matrix over the cable.

Edit: If anyone wants to implement this idea, I think a digital connection between boards is the best idea, but implementing it would be hard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 09 February 2012, 18:06:36
My vote still goes for HDMI, due to enough conductors, small size, and very cheap & easy to find cables of varying lengths.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 09 February 2012, 21:15:05
Quote from: sordna;510524
My vote still goes for HDMI, due to enough conductors, small size, and very cheap & easy to find cables of varying lengths.

My only concern about HDMI is the flexibility of the cable. I purchased one of the thinner ones from monoprice and they still feel as if they would be too stiff to use as a connector. I have had many hdmi ports on various devices wear out due to stiff cables putting too much strain on them.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 09 February 2012, 23:12:13
I'm concerned about the surface mount (much less mechanically sound compared with through-hole) and the apparent lack of decent panel mount options for them. Not to mention the fact that it's the wrong protocol for the cable. We'd also (theoretically speaking ) owe the HDMI company money for each port on our device.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 10 February 2012, 08:13:11
You'd only owe them a licensing fee if you implemented HDMI on the port.  I'm wondering if some sadist wants to try implementing 1 half with shift registers and using serial over a small cable using RJ45s or the like.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Fri, 10 February 2012, 08:58:28
Dorkvader - you noted scouting around for a shop. I guess you don't have access to a CAD or exact dimensions/tolerances? Or will I have to wait to hear from Dox?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Fri, 10 February 2012, 09:19:10
Quote from: dorkvader;510769
I'm concerned about the surface mount (much less mechanically sound compared with through-hole) and the apparent lack of decent panel mount options for them.

FWIW, a TH and panel mount connector is available here (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1746679-1/A35075-ND/1246897). The panel mount part of it is definitely too high, though.

Quote from: alaricljs;510938
You'd only owe them a licensing fee if you implemented HDMI on the port.  I'm wondering if some sadist wants to try implementing 1 half with shift registers and using serial over a small cable using RJ45s or the like.

SPI (4 wires) or I2C (2 wires) would only need an RJ11, but I think that even RJ11 is too high to fit. And yeah, implementing that type of protocol would be quite a substantial amount of work :(
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 10 February 2012, 09:22:09
Needs more than just 2 or 4 wires unless you want to have some form of MCU on the slave side.  Clock, power, whatever else...  hell, need power especially if you have an MCU.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Fri, 10 February 2012, 09:34:01
Quote from: Parak;510957
SPI (4 wires) or I2C (2 wires) would only need an RJ11, but I think that even RJ11 is too high to fit. And yeah, implementing that type of protocol would be quite a substantial amount of work :(

SPI is pretty much trivial if you are using something like a USB AVR (e.g. Teensy) as the main controller. An I/O expander like a 23S17 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23S17-E%2FSP/MCP23S17-E%2FSP-ND/894276) would do everything the slave side needs.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Fri, 10 February 2012, 10:08:35
Heh, how about VHDCI (http://www.molex.com/molex/products/datasheet.jsp?part=active/0714300008_IO_CONNECTORS.xml&channel=Products&Lang=en-US)? Complete overkill in terms of pins, rather expensive, but readily available and low profile.

Or TDP Triad (http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=tdp_triad_differential_pair&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction). Header (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/74960-3018/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvd2mIcYG7oaNDysQv32n8A3cY5Nb0GQvs%3d) + Cable (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/74576-0001/?qs=QA2a3%252blgRt%252bCtR0ltQmc8Q%3d%3d). The downside is that the header is SMD.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Fri, 10 February 2012, 11:49:13
Or use an I²C I/O expander (e.g. 23017 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23017-E%2FSP/MCP23017-E%2FSP-ND/894272)) to get down to 4 conductors, and use 2.5mm audio (http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) connectors. Cheap, compact, and through-hole.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Fri, 10 February 2012, 12:10:21
Quote from: kps;511086
Or use an I²C I/O expander (e.g. 23017 (http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MCP23017-E%2FSP/MCP23017-E%2FSP-ND/894272)) to get down to 4 conductors, and use 2.5mm audio (http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/products/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) connectors. Cheap, compact, and through-hole.

Hmm, that's a nice approach. SDA, SCL, Power, and Ground over the 4 conductors?

Would still need a willing sap^H^H^H volunteer to create some sample code, and breadboard test it with a small matrix, I suppose.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: warzer0 on Fri, 10 February 2012, 22:23:01
Got any idea of a ballpack price for this thing?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 11 February 2012, 10:48:54
Quote from: warzer0;511469
Got any idea of a ballpack price for this thing?

I added it up once, based on Dox's quotes for 5 cases, and it was under $400 (something like $367) not counting keycaps or teensy.

If we can get to 50 orders (up from 5), there's a chance the cases would be much cheaper, and the PCB's will probably be less than the $50/hand I estimated. Shopping around may also prove useful.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ekw808 on Tue, 14 February 2012, 10:23:07
The most I could possibly pay for this board would be 200 O_O even though it looks pretty amazing
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Wed, 15 February 2012, 00:58:38
Quote from: ekw808;514166
The most I could possibly pay for this board would be 200 O_O even though it looks pretty amazing
Assembled? I imaging that's doable at the current rate for self-assembly, labor would probably add $50 - $100.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: drojf on Thu, 16 February 2012, 01:22:35
You might find this diy keyboard build log relevant: The Humble Hacker Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 21 February 2012, 14:35:02
I just saw the KeyPoard (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845) which looks really awesome, complete with phantom cut-outs on the switch mounting holes so that mounted switches can be opened up for servicing. I think we should add those cut-outs to ErgoDox as well.

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41177&d=1329724607)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 22 February 2012, 20:43:56
@dorkvader/dox: If the price can stay below $400 for *everything* (except assembly), I'm definitely interested.  If it can stay below $300, I'd like one.  If below $150-200, I think I might want two.. lol, or at least an extra case+PCB.  Assuming it can get done in the next few months so I can get it together and get used to it before school, and of course that no future design decisions make it not work for me (which I don't expect to be the case).  Created an account just so I could track this thread :) .

A few of the things that matter to me:
- The thumbs having a good amount of keys within easy reach (as in the current kinesis looking thumb group)
- The cord between the two being cheap, easy to get, and *small* (as is being discussed).  I've never tried, but it seems to me that anything thicker / less flexible than a typical usb cord would be a pain when the two halves of the keyboard were close together on a desk.  And aesthetically, a ribbon cable connector or even an ethernet connector (or a pair of them), would ruin it IMO.  2x2.5mm audio connectors (like kps suggested) would be pretty cool, if there's nothing better in a single similarly sized and shaped cable.

A few of the things that don't matter to me:
- Assembly service.  If it's going to be done by another member, and/or going to cost more than maybe $20, I may as well take the opportunity to learn :)
- Layout.  I'm planning to change it all anyway.
- Whether the parts all come in the same box, or whether we have to get them from different places.  As long as they're not way too hard to find/buy, and the total price can stay below my above limits.

Random preferences (if they make a difference here):
- I'm leaning towards cherry browns, after a bunch of reading.  I haven't found a place to try them, but they sound like what I want.
- Colored or clear keycaps.  I know these would be extra... but if they turn out not to be too much more, it'd be really cool.
- O-rings (the soft ones), probably.  I assume these would be extra too.
- For layout, I'll probably do something close to arensito, at least with the AltGr symbol layer.

Other thoughts:
- I'd prefer it not to be red.  Lol, though I guess I'd live if it were.
- Once it gets closer to being done, if I'm not the only one here who's a noob at all things hardware, maybe someone could post links to save us searching around for all the parts we'll have to get ourselves, how to put it together (or at least common pitfalls), how to reprogram/reflash the firmware for remapping (and other things?), and all that?  I understand it's DIY so I shan't complain, but it'd save me a bit of tangential effort.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 22 February 2012, 22:58:38
Quote from: ic07;522476
@dorkvader/dox: If the price can stay below $400 for *everything* (except assembly), I'm definitely interested.  If it can stay below $300, I'd like one.  If below $150-200, I think I might want two.. lol, or at least an extra case+PCB.  Assuming it can get done in the next few months so I can get it together and get used to it before school, and of course that no future design decisions make it not work for me (which I don't expect to be the case).  Created an account just so I could track this thread :) .

A few of the things that matter to me:
- The thumbs having a good amount of keys within easy reach (as in the current kinesis looking thumb group)
- The cord between the two being cheap, easy to get, and *small* (as is being discussed).  I've never tried, but it seems to me that anything thicker / less flexible than a typical usb cord would be a pain when the two halves of the keyboard were close together on a desk.  And aesthetically, a ribbon cable connector or even an ethernet connector (or a pair of them), would ruin it IMO.  2x2.5mm audio connectors (like kps suggested) would be pretty cool, if there's nothing better in a single similarly sized and shaped cable.

A few of the things that don't matter to me:
- Assembly service.  If it's going to be done by another member, and/or going to cost more than maybe $20, I may as well take the opportunity to learn :)
- Layout.  I'm planning to change it all anyway.
- Whether the parts all come in the same box, or whether we have to get them from different places.  As long as they're not way too hard to find/buy, and the total price can stay below my above limits.

Random preferences (if they make a difference here):
- I'm leaning towards cherry browns, after a bunch of reading.  I haven't found a place to try them, but they sound like what I want.
- Colored or clear keycaps.  I know these would be extra... but if they turn out not to be too much more, it'd be really cool.
- O-rings (the soft ones), probably.  I assume these would be extra too.
- For layout, I'll probably do something close to arensito, at least with the AltGr symbol layer.

Other thoughts:
- I'd prefer it not to be red.  Lol, though I guess I'd live if it were.
- Once it gets closer to being done, if I'm not the only one here who's a noob at all things hardware, maybe someone could post links to save us searching around for all the parts we'll have to get ourselves, how to put it together (or at least common pitfalls), how to reprogram/reflash the firmware for remapping (and other things?), and all that?  I understand it's DIY so I shan't complain, but it'd save me a bit of tangential effort.

Wow, welcome to Geekhack, that's a heck of a first post: Lots of good info here.

Firstly, I don't want to take any credit away from Dox. He's the designer. I'm just keeping track of interest, and answering easy questions.

Good point on the cable. Also note that very frequently, thinner cables will be able to suffer more bends before breaking: They have a longer service life in that respect, but are more fragile to tensile strain. I've seem some unwieldy USB cables before: One has full shielding with an aluminium wrap (I think it's from a LaCiE HDD)! Having TRRS connectors to carry power, Transmit signal, received signals, and ground would work, but at that point, we could totally use the ubiquitous USB connector. The hardest part is implementing a matrix to I2C or something, then having it decoded by a master teensy. Also note that it wolud have to be pretty high speed, or we wouldn't get NKRO on the slave half due to bandwidth limitations. At this point, the design of the cables also plays a large part, as crosstalk, and inductance degrade the highspeed signal. We would almost be better off at that point to go with a SMA connector (like for routers) or suchlike.

Hah, good point on the layout. One of the best features is the programmability of this: you can't just pick an arbitrary layout on just any keyboard, but with the Dox (or anything Teensy) you can.

Parts: I imagine there'll be a good BOM made up, where We'll distribute the plate/case and PCB, then have a link to where you can buy the rest. You could conceivably have it ordered in a few minutes, Still, if we're distributing the plates/case already, it might be a better idea to distribute the other components at the same time, for possible savings in bulk.

Keycaps: I never imagined keycaps to come with the base kit. Many GH'ers have extra sets, and they're pretty easy to get (WASDkeyboards, anyone?) elsewhere. I also really want clear keycaps to go over my cherry greens in the mail.

As far as colour, we might be able to work something out with the Machine shop to get it anodized different colours. Ofcourse it would be pretty easy to paint it yourself.

Finally: You should look at the phantom guide on the DT WIKI. This is almost the same project (only with the different physical aspect, integrated case, and possible complication of cables/connectors) and there's a lot of good info there. I imagine when it comes time, We'll update it with some ergoDOX specifics. I've always wanted to write up a proper manual in LaTeX for download/distribution.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction

Anyway, I hope this helps. As always, it's up to DOX right now (as designer and de facto lead) but good ideas are always appreciated. It's good to get the problems sorted out before production.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 23 February 2012, 15:29:43
Thanks :)

Quote from: dorkvader;522656
Parts: I imagine there'll be a good BOM made up, where We'll distribute the plate/case and PCB, then have a link to where you can buy the rest. You could conceivably have it ordered in a few minutes, Still, if we're distributing the plates/case already, it might be a better idea to distribute the other components at the same time, for possible savings in bulk.


Sounds good to me.  Seems like this isn't the first time you guys have done this :)

Quote from: dorkvader;522656
Keycaps: I never imagined keycaps to come with the base kit. Many GH'ers have extra sets, and they're pretty easy to get (WASDkeyboards, anyone?) elsewhere. I also really want clear keycaps to go over my cherry greens in the mail.


Okay.  I do have to include keycaps in my price limit though, since I don't have any yet.. :/ .  I did look around on WASD yesterday.  I'll have to shop around some more later.

Quote from: dorkvader;522656
As far as colour, we might be able to work something out with the Machine shop to get it anodized different colours. Ofcourse it would be pretty easy to paint it yourself.


It would be awesome if the machine shop could do different colors, or just natural colored (like thirdkind wants).  I looked up how to paint over anodized aluminum today, and it doesn't look fun (to me).  But again, it won't kill my interest, even though it's aesthetically important to me.

Quote from: dorkvader;522656
Finally: You should look at the phantom guide on the DT WIKI. This is almost the same project (only with the different physical aspect, integrated case, and possible complication of cables/connectors) and there's a lot of good info there. I imagine when it comes time, We'll update it with some ergoDOX specifics. I've always wanted to write up a proper manual in LaTeX for download/distribution.
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction


Thanks!  I've only glanced at it for now, but I'll read it more thoroughly when the ergoDOX gets closer to shipping.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 23 February 2012, 16:23:47
Quote from: Parak;511104
Hmm, that's a nice approach. SDA, SCL, Power, and Ground over the 4 conductors?

Would still need a willing sap^H^H^H volunteer to create some sample code, and breadboard test it with a small matrix, I suppose.

@parak/kps: You guys make it sound so hard.  The Teensy library documentation[1] makes it sound easy.  Which makes me feel naive, lol.  What am I missing?  The only problem (if it is one) that I can see is that this might only give us 6KRO without a lot of work.

( Some relevant stuff i found, just to put it here.  Sorry if everyone already knows:
- NKRO is possible with USB, but not common: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=USB+versus+PS+2#Full+NKRO
- Phantom firmware.  I thought it was NKRO, but the post says it's 6KRO, so I'd have to read/learn more to figure it out: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26742
)

[1] pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html (with something to handle I²C) in C, or pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html and pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Wire.html in what looks like C++

((sorry for the links, i can't post real ones yet))

EDIT:
Don't mean to clog the thread with dev stuff.  Please let me know if there's another place I should put it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Thu, 23 February 2012, 16:29:06
Phantom's firmware is based off of Teensy's keyboard source.  It is 6KRO over USB right now.  When people get their hands on the Phantom hardware, hopefully it will turn into NKRO over USB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 23 February 2012, 16:56:41
I wish the ErgoDox will be 6KRO for maximum compatibility with any computer / OS. When I see NKRO over USB I run, run away from it; to me it's a useless feature and so I prefer the USB standard to avoid any possibility of issues with the various OSs I use. I lived with 2KRO just fine for years, and 6KRO is even better, and six plus modifiers is really more simultaneous keys than I will ever need.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 23 February 2012, 17:50:53
Quote from: sordna;523515
I wish the ErgoDox will be 6KRO for maximum compatibility with any computer / OS. When I see NKRO over USB I run, run away from it; to me it's a useless feature and so I prefer the USB standard to avoid any possibility of issues with the various OSs I use. I lived with 2KRO just fine for years, and 6KRO is even better, and six plus modifiers is really more simultaneous keys than I will ever need.

The interesting part about this is that the teensy NKRO I've seen is using USB standards and doing quite well at compatibility.  It's the mass-market usb-NKRO controllers that are introducing problems because of their poor implementation choices.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 23 February 2012, 23:27:23
Quote from: ic07;523490
@parak/kps: You guys make it sound so hard.  The Teensy library documentation[1] makes it sound easy.  Which makes me feel naive, lol.  What am I missing?  The only problem (if it is one) that I can see is that this might only give us 6KRO without a lot of work.

( Some relevant stuff i found, just to put it here.  Sorry if everyone already knows:
- NKRO is possible with USB, but not common: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=USB+versus+PS+2#Full+NKRO
- Phantom firmware.  I thought it was NKRO, but the post says it's 6KRO, so I'd have to read/learn more to figure it out: geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26742
)

[1] pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html (with something to handle I²C) in C, or pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html and pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Wire.html in what looks like C++

((sorry for the links, i can't post real ones yet))

EDIT:
Don't mean to clog the thread with dev stuff.  Please let me know if there's another place I should put it.

I'd say that any development ideas you have are okay is this thread. I certainly find them more interesting than checked interest :P

So there already exists I2C for Teensy? I should have known. Looks like almost everything's been done on ATmega.

About #KRO: The Teensy supports NKRO logically, so it can recognize all the keystrokes, and keep them separate. As far as I know, the reason USB is usually 6KRO is due to bandwidth limitations, and it functioning on USB 1.1 for legacy (BIOS) purposes. There exists an implementation of NKRO over USB on the Teensy (see soarer), but I'm not 100% sure how it works out with the necessary bandwidth. My assumption has always been that it detects something from the computer and is only 6KRO (and slower) when it needs to be, then changes back to NKRO once it's into a full-OS, but I really have no idea.

See, I'm no EE, so I'm relatively new to this embedded system stuff. Also, I don't have a TEENSY, so I can't hardly breadboard an I2C solution.
---

Should I come up with a "roadmap" of stuff that needs to get done? I figure, if I do that, then people can tackle each bit, and we'd get more done faster. Like we could get the CAD files, and some people can talk to local machine shops. We can get someone working on implementing i2c as communication between the halves. We can get someone looking for solutions for the connector problem (either an easy cable for I2C or a larger one for passing the matrix) etc. Then we can have a list of design decisions to be made (fer example, number and placement of thumb keys, etc.)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Laggy-gaga on Fri, 24 February 2012, 09:07:15
I will take one if around $200 bucks
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 24 February 2012, 17:47:55
Quote from: dorkvader;523936
Should I come up with a "roadmap" of stuff that needs to get done? I figure, if I do that, then people can tackle each bit, and we'd get more done faster. Like we could get the CAD files, and some people can talk to local machine shops. We can get someone working on implementing i2c as communication between the halves. We can get someone looking for solutions for the connector problem (either an easy cable for I2C or a larger one for passing the matrix) etc. Then we can have a list of design decisions to be made (fer example, number and placement of thumb keys, etc.)


I think a roadmap, especially if it included a collection of relevant files, would be great :) .

And since I've been thinking about it so much for the last few days, maybe I should just go ahead and volunteer to write and breadboard test the firmware (including i2c).  I'm hoping two things though: 1) that if anybody more experienced than me wants to do it, somebody lets me know before I buy the chips, lol, and 2) that nobody minds if it's 6KRO for the moment, and written in C++ in the teensyduino environment.  If that works out all right, I'll go from there.  Also, I'm a comp. sci. undergrad, and I've never messed with firmware before, so I'm sure I'll need help with parts of it before I'm done (or at least a code review).  If some of my basic assumptions turn out to be wrong (e.g. the teensyduino Keyboard or Wire libraries end up not working for us) I'll likely need a *lot* of help.

If I do give it a shot, which Teensy and which I2C IO expander should I use?

EDIT:
There's a C implementation of TWI under the LGPL in the Arduino libraries (https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/tree/master/libraries/Wire/utility).  I still wouldn't mind trying it out, but if someone who knows what they're doing wants to just use this and the Teensy USB: keyboard (http://pjrc.com/teensy/usb_keyboard.zip) (and maybe the Phantom firmware (http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38982&d=1327895092)) code to put something together, that might be quicker.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Fri, 24 February 2012, 19:09:46
Quote from: ic07;524691
If I do give it a shot, which Teensy and which I2C IO expander should I use?

As kps mentioned earlier (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=511086&viewfull=1#post511086), MCP23017 or MCP23018 should work here. I'm not at all sure what the difference between them is, even after looking at the datasheets, but 16 (outdated)/17/18 seem to have plenty of code samples floating around. Make sure to get the ones ending in SP, which indicates a DIP package.

A regular teensy will be plenty due to the port expander being used. You can get the one with pins presoldered, too.

I do wonder about the 2.5mm jack though. The datasheet (http://products.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?fileID=7757) has a couple of types, both switched and unswitched. The consideration here is to make sure that insertion and removal of a plug while the teensy is on and providing voltage won't damage the I2C extender, though I'm probably overthinking it and the nonswitched one (CP1-42514-ND) will be fine.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kps on Fri, 24 February 2012, 21:31:49
Quote from: Parak;524775
I do wonder about the 2.5mm jack though. The datasheet (http://products.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?fileID=7757) has a couple of types, both switched and unswitched. The consideration here is to make sure that insertion and removal of a plug while the teensy is on and providing voltage won't damage the I2C extender, though I'm probably overthinking it and the nonswitched one (CP1-42514-ND) will be fine.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that either, though I'm just a programmer with a screwdriver. Personally I would use a mini-DIN connector (with at least 5 pins, and SPI rather than I²C), but connector size seems to be a major concern here.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: molto on Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:21:21
I like the layout and would definitely would pay $50 for a PCB.  The case isn't worth hundreds of dollars to me.  I would rather just glue it down to a piece of plywood and save the money for the substantial amount that switches and keycaps will cost.  Is the plate necessary or will the PC hold the switches securely?

Tangential question, what do you-all think of splay (columns not parallel but farther apart at the top than the bottom)?  I think it is why I find the Microsoft Natural 4000 more comfortable than a GoldTouch but I'm not 100% sure.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 27 February 2012, 22:11:43
Having tried a Datadesk smartboard as well as a Kinesis Advantage (I also own a Goldtouch and a Microsoft natural0 I am firmly against any splay. Columns should be completely parallel and keys should be close together to minimize unnecessary hand/finger movement.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Mon, 27 February 2012, 22:46:22
Quote from: sordna;528885
Having tried a Datadesk smartboard as well as a Kinesis Advantage (I also own a Goldtouch and a Microsoft natural0 I am firmly against any splay. Columns should be completely parallel and keys should be close together to minimize unnecessary hand/finger movement.
Trust the sordna!

I need something to blow my money on, let's get this show on the road.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 28 February 2012, 00:10:30
Quote from: molto;528809
I like the layout and would definitely would pay $50 for a PCB.  The case isn't worth hundreds of dollars to me.  I would rather just glue it down to a piece of plywood and save the money for the substantial amount that switches and keycaps will cost.  Is the plate necessary or will the PC hold the switches securely?
I'll put you down for PCB interest. It seems you're going key64-style on the case? Not a bad decision. You can even DIY it in acrylic relatively cheaply, and easily enough to be worthwhile.

Lucky for me, I will have enough switches to populate this, and with my purchasing habits, I don't really expect keycaps to be an issue.

---
As far as the plate/PCB, I think if we add plate-mount holes to the PCB, phantom-style, then you could go with either. IT makes he PCB more complicated, but is well worth it. Also, with the case design, we can have some extra plate-mounts made up for he people who will DIY their own cases. I wouldn't expect them to be too expensive, especially in the quantity we're after (And they are symmetric).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Wed, 29 February 2012, 17:48:43
If this doesn't happen within 2 months then I'll be in if the price isn't much over $400, but for right now 7bit has made me bankrupt. :/
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 29 February 2012, 18:45:15
HI guys, I've been very busy with work during the last few weeks but things are slowing down a bit so I'll have more time to work on this.
If someone want to experiment with I2C or SPI go ahead because I will not. If someone can develop something functional with 1 controller, I will implement it to the PCB design.

I have reworked the columns staggering as per sordna recommendation. Tell me what you guys think.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42238[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 29 February 2012, 19:11:09
Hehe, subtle is nice. Hmm, I still think with just a 1-2mm adjustment we can fit another thumbkey:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42252[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 01 March 2012, 12:59:16
Thanks for the update, it's looking nice :) .

I ordered a Teensy 2.0 and some I2C chips the other day (along with some SPI ones just in case), so hopefully they'll come soon and I can make an attempt at the firmware.  I'm going to shoot for using the MCP23018 for now, which would allow us to use one 4-conductor 2.5mm jack (Vcc, GND, SCL, SDA), or two 2-conductor ones.  I'll let you guys know when I make some progress.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 01 March 2012, 13:59:12
Why 2.5mm? What's wrong with 3.5mm? It's more common, and I suspect there are even better/more durable connectors to be had.

Still, I thank you for all the works you're doing, This will be an elegant solution.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 01 March 2012, 14:17:45
The CUI 4 pin connectors have a difference of 1mm in height, 4mm for 2.5 vs 5mm for 3.5. As long as the 5mm one fits, then yeah, it'd be better as far as availability of cables goes. This doesn't matter for prototyping purposes though, except where it comes time to test live insertion/removal of the connector.

@ic07: Awesome, good luck!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Snarfangel on Thu, 01 March 2012, 14:20:27
Quote from: sordna;531330
Hehe, subtle is nice. Hmm, I still think with just a 1-2mm adjustment we can fit another thumbkey:

(Attachment) 42252[/ATTACH]


So...Shift, Space, Enter on one side, and Shift, E, Backspace on the other? :)

Of course, putting the E under the thumb isn't exactly QWERTY, but I do like how the blank keys are laid out..
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 01 March 2012, 15:12:13
Heck, I might put L and S on the extra thumbs, so I can do "ls" in dvorak :-)
If you're not familiar with Dvorak, for "ls" you need to type "P;" (same pinky twice) on a QWERTY keyboard ...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 02 March 2012, 00:58:38
@dorkvader: Sorry if that came out wrong - I don't have a real preference for 2.5mm vs 3.5mm, I just kind of picked one to mention in the post, lol.  Actually, now that I look at them again, I might prefer 3.5mm (for durability, if there's room for it), but I'm not really worried either way.

@parak: Thanks!
Title: White, Strong & Flexible
Post by: Dox on Sat, 03 March 2012, 11:58:49
I've been impressed with the quality of prints I've seen from shapeways lately so I'm considering getting the case 3D printed in plastic instead of machined/cut aluminium. I don't like the sharp edges and thicker border and screws of the layered aluminium plate design. Current volume for the case is 100.69cm^3 per hand so it would cost around 280$ for both hands in their white, strong & flexible material (like the humblehacker (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292)). The case could also be ordered in different colors offered by shapeways (black, red, grey, indigo) or dyed/painted afterward.

Renders!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]42548[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42549[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42550[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42551[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42552[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]42553[/ATTACH]

Tell me what you think!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 03 March 2012, 12:13:22
280 seems kind of steep for just the plastic case. I dont mind the plastic, but only if its a good bit cheaper and the quality exceeds that of realforce boards
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Sat, 03 March 2012, 12:27:44
put me on the list for one please.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 March 2012, 13:38:51
Are those cutouts for costar stabilizers! I like it :-)  Btw you may want to get some stabilizers from wasdkeyboards to determine the exact dimensions & placement:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html


Hey don't forget to "butterfly" the switch cutouts, a-la phantom.

Check this post from the KeyPoard thread, with dimensions:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845&p=530064&viewfull=1#post530064
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Sat, 03 March 2012, 15:24:40
Quote from: Dox;533995
Tell me what you think!

$280 for just the plastic case? That does seem to be a bit much. In general, I think people are willing to pay premium for metal cases that have been popping up recently because they represent something very different from the norm where most keyboards are made out of plastic.

Have you done/considered shopping around for CNC aluminum/steel pricing? Sharp edges would not be a problem there. If it's possible to make the switch plate mirror-able, then it would save some money as well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 March 2012, 15:30:54
To save cost I would be happy with a flat mounting plate/electronics/hardware, and a printout to help build a cardboard case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fim on Sat, 03 March 2012, 19:20:31
I liked the initial idea of the aluminium case and 280$ for a plastic case seems a bit high, so I'd say stick with metal \m/
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Sat, 03 March 2012, 20:17:09
Metal case please. :D The $400ish price tag isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but only if it takes at least another 2 months or so. Dorkvader, could you put me on your interest list? I'll be in for one if it's not much more expensive than $400.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 03 March 2012, 21:36:04
Quote from: dirge;534015
put me on the list for one please.

Quote from: ped;534320
Metal case please. :D The $400ish price tag isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but only if it takes at least another 2 months or so. Dorkvader, could you put me on your interest list? I'll be in for one if it's not much more expensive than $400.
I'll add you both to the file and update later.

Yeah, I'm willing to pay for a metal case, but I think $280 for plastic is just too much.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 03 March 2012, 23:33:07
Quote from: dorkvader;534378
Yeah, I'm willing to pay for a metal case, but I think $280 for plastic is just too much.

I agree.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sicyo on Sun, 04 March 2012, 09:08:17
I still like the shape but 280 is a bit much for plastic and one of my main interests here was getting the natural aluminum. Maybe we can find a newer machine shop with less of a steady business who would make it for cheaper.

To relay to the rest of the interested people in this thread: the machine shop I know can't do it without stopping production on their business and even then it would still be really expensive.

They did recommend laser cutting Dox's most recent Aluminum design though.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 04 March 2012, 10:21:47
If a metal case is out of the question, then we should get one bad-ass type of plastic to use, and make it THICK.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 04 March 2012, 10:39:40
interested. willing to pay: $200-250
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ascaii on Mon, 05 March 2012, 02:33:00
Only interested in heavy metal. I would also be against having both options because it will drive up the prices considerably.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: heuristicist on Mon, 05 March 2012, 04:30:59
I seem to be the first going this way (unless I've missed a post) but I don't care regarding metal vs. plastic. I'm in it for the split ergo layout with mechanical switches! Go for whatever's cheapest!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Mycroftxxx on Thu, 08 March 2012, 11:03:53
I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material.  
I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection.  Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 08 March 2012, 11:24:27
Quote from: Mycroftxxx;539103
I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material.  
I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection.  Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.

Dox
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 09 March 2012, 13:31:24
Quote from: Mycroftxxx;539103
I would be interested in make a purchase depending on final price/material.  
I'ld also be interented in helping out with the Firmware development and hardware selection.  Can anyone point me to the individual "In Charge" of this.

First, welcome to geekhack (haha, even though I'm new here myself).

Yup, Dox has the final say on everything, it's his project.  To some extent, hardware suggestions have been discussed in the thread.

For firmware, it's kind of me at the moment, since nobody else wanted to try writing one that used I2C to get the connector between the two halves down to 4 wires.  (Firmwares without that capability have already been written for other projects.)  That being said, I'm totally new to teensy development and figuring stuff out as I go, so I'm not really in a position to work with anyone... but you're quite free to write your own if you want.  If you do and it'd help, I'd be happy to open my forthcoming github account early and start posting my progress so we can share ideas.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 10 March 2012, 00:24:53
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.

If Y'all want to point me in the direction of some good firmware on teensy/atmel hardware, I'd be interested in looking at your development. I've got no experievce, so it's dubious as to how much I could help out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 10 March 2012, 02:21:06
Here's the page of references I've been keeping as I figure stuff out: [ATTACH=CONFIG]43378[/ATTACH].  I'll start posting code when I have some :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: speedkills on Sat, 10 March 2012, 03:45:57
I'm in for one assembled under $500.  

How deep are the cases?  If cabling is an issue could you use RJ45 cables on the bottom of the units and plug the cables in facing down?  Two RJ45 flat cables are very flexible, flat, and are pretty small when laid on top of each other.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 10 March 2012, 17:00:16
Added, and updated.

I think we determined that RJ45 (or 4P4C, etc.) are too tall to fit, though if it's close, we may be able to make it work out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 11 March 2012, 00:32:35
Quote from: dorkvader;540798
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.


I agree, but I've got a stupid limit of 1.4kg on my keyboard tray at work.  I'm sure I could manage 2kg, but that really would be it.

The biggest surprise anyone gets with a maltron is it's very low weight.  A lot of people associate low weight with cheapness - which I think is kind of normal behaviour, but it clashes with the price of titanium and carbon fibre...  A good solid heft to the ergodox would be welcome.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: faffer on Sun, 11 March 2012, 04:38:59
Quote from: dorkvader;540798
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.
After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

Hot glue + lead fishing weights + whatever case material is cheapest.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Sun, 11 March 2012, 07:43:46
Quote from: dorkvader;540798
I think it'd be awesome if we got some collaboration going on this project.

After thinking about it, I think metal is the way to go, and steel may well be better than aluminium. I'm thinking that the heavier metal will have a larger normal force on the desk, and therefore more friction and less slipping. Also, I really like items with heft!

I'm thinking either a clearcoated or stainless steel, or matte black/red would look the best, but that's all small stuff compared with firmware, etc.

If Y'all want to point me in the direction of some good firmware on teensy/atmel hardware, I'd be interested in looking at your development. I've got no experievce, so it's dubious as to how much I could help out.

I'd take a variation on that and get it done in aluminum and an optional brass plate insert for those that want extra weight, that way it would still be metal and people who have weight restrictions imposed by their keyboard trays can still use it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 11 March 2012, 11:38:44
What about galvanic corrosion? I suppose we could solve that with some thin plastic "plate" spacing it out.

Bytheway, Dox says the volume is 100.69 cm^3/hand. If that's the case (haha), and we go with steel (7.6 g/cm^3) then the weight of the case is "only" 1.58 kg. So even with steel, we'd likely be able to get it under 2Kg, depending on the weight of the switches, PCB, etc. (an AL case is ~543 grams)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Sun, 11 March 2012, 13:09:30
Maybe sandwiched acrylic ala litster? Just throwing another option out there as I don't care that much about the case material relatively speaking, as long as it's reasonably priced and isn't plain plastic.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Mon, 12 March 2012, 01:33:56
I'm not sure how much litster-style acrylic cases would cost, but I will say that those cases he made are very nice, and I certainly wouldn't mind a similar thing for these boards.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Swede on Mon, 12 March 2012, 01:59:00
I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.
I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 13 March 2012, 00:02:40
I'm pretty sure the PMMA litster-style case would be about the same cost. Making these are pretty time/labour intensive, and that's what we're really paying for, here.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Tue, 13 March 2012, 06:54:24
Quote from: Swede;543067
I would recommend to stay with aluminum. Price/kg is about $5 and then ofc comes cutting and machining.
I might be able to help with machining for free in return of one of these. But giving no guarantees.

Yes please! :D
I was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Swede on Tue, 13 March 2012, 08:42:19
Quote from: ped;544371
Yes please! :D
I was hoping you'd see this project and take interest in it.

I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything.
This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:23:01
Those who think 280$ is too much for a plastic case from shapeways.....

I got a quote from http://www.firstcut.com/
[ATTACH=CONFIG]43936[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]43937[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]43938[/ATTACH]

Maybe Swede could do better.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Swede on Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:33:29
Quote from: Dox;544540
Those who think 280$ is too much for a plastic case from shapeways.....

I got a quote from http://www.firstcut.com/
(Attachment) 43936[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 43937[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 43938[/ATTACH]

Maybe Swede could do better.

Hahaha! HOLY ****!

But I'm not that suprised :)
Biggest cost for me will be the watercutter. If you can give me 2D drawings I can check if I can make these.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 13 March 2012, 11:54:38
Bah! Because the keyboard is flat, the case/plate does not need to be fancy. If you use PCB-mounted switches then the case would not have to be more complex than a box, basically. You don't even need stabilizers for the thumb keys -- the Kinesis does not have any and people never complain about that.

You could also design the case so that only the top needs to be a remotely complex shape. Integrate the plate (if you really think that it is necessary) into that and bolt the PCB to it. Then the bottom could be a simple flat piece of sheet metal or plastic which you bolt on with the help of nylon spacers.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Tue, 13 March 2012, 13:03:34
Quote from: Swede;544411
I would be happy to provide any help with this. But again I will not guarantee anything.
This all weighs on me having time to do the programming and getting approval from my school. And both are far from certain.

Also shipping from Sweden is expensive as hell.

I live in Europe, shipping shouldn't be incredibly expensive to me. :P
And if you can make it cheaper than Dox can please (with cherry on top) get permission from your school! :D
I'll see if I can figure out a way to make time slow down so you have time to do the programming :P
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Tue, 13 March 2012, 13:09:39
The case material doesn't matter much to me. Both my first and second favorite keyboards (Kinesis Advantage and TrulyErgonomic respectively) have plastic cases, and they work well.

Of course an aluminum keyboard such as the Apple is sleek and good-looking, but function is more important IMO. As long as it's well made it's all good.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 13 March 2012, 14:48:06
I don't care about the case either. In fact I'll be happy getting this without a case if it will save me $200. I can always build a case with cardboard or InstaMorph.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Tue, 13 March 2012, 18:02:59
Don't know how I missed this thread so long but... DOX these are awesoem! Count me intereseted... especially if under 200
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tafryn on Tue, 13 March 2012, 18:41:30
I have no preference for either a metal or a plastic case, but I think there should only be one case option to cut down on costs. If the chosen material doesn't meet everyone's needs, there's always the option of just grabbing the PCB and making a custom case out of stone, wood, sheep, or whatever material suits your fancy.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Wed, 14 March 2012, 03:14:39
Maybe I'm alone in this but from a scientific point of view a PCB mounted prototype without any case sounds entirely reasonable. Dox, would you mind sharing the layout? Maybe I can make a prototype at work. Don't worry I would still buy one. ;)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Wed, 14 March 2012, 04:28:03
i think it might be cheaper just to buy a 3D printer and printing the cases in plastic.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 14 March 2012, 06:48:14
Switches would be harder to get if they were pcb mounted
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 14 March 2012, 16:40:13
Quote from: ironman31;545598
Switches would be harder to get if they were pcb mounted

It's perfectly good to use plate mount switches, especially for a prototype.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 14 March 2012, 17:08:59
Quote from: PrinsValium;546062
It's perfectly good to use plate mount switches, especially for a prototype.

? I'm saying I am against pcb mounted switches.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 14 March 2012, 18:46:08
That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:08:03
Quote from: Parak;546195
That is a bit of a YMMV. For example, all of my switch donor boards are PCB mounted POS boards, so it's far easier and cheaper for me to come up with PCB mount switches than plate mount. Note that both can be plate mounted, it'd just be up to the PCB board designer if they can account for the extra holes. Of course, the extra legs on PCB mount switches can be cut off, but that's not really an option for me as I need them to be reusable for my own projects :)

It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:20:57
Quote from: ironman31;546263
It's a little harder to find brand new pcb mx blues from donor boards, and a little less hard for browns. Not to mention, I'm not even sure they have pcb reds.

Kinesis uses PCB reds with pins AND diodes (MX1A-L1DW) in their LF model. They sell a pack of 15 for $15.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:50:18
Quote from: sordna;546270
Kinesis uses PCB reds with pins AND diodes (MX1A-L1DW) in their LF model. They sell a pack of 15 for $15.

That's not too bad.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 14 March 2012, 20:56:20
Maybe it's a good idea that the PCB (whether we go with a plate or not) has the holes to acommodate pins and diodes, even if PCB/dioded switches are not necessarily used.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 14 March 2012, 23:56:16
Just to re-iterate, I'm still down for 3, possibly more.

Dox, you're beautiful.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 March 2012, 00:44:59
Quote from: ironman31;546096
? I'm saying I am against pcb mounted switches.


Ok, I should have expressed that more precisely.

It's perfectly fine to use plate mount switches where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones, especially for a prototype.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 15 March 2012, 04:25:21
Quote from: PrinsValium;546465
Ok, I should have expressed that more precisely.

It's perfectly fine to use plate mount switches where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones, especially for a prototype.

I was just suggesting PCB mount because that seems easier to accomplish quickly.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 March 2012, 04:43:46
There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.

To use PCB mount switches on a PCB that is not designed with the two extra alignment holes the extra plastic pins needs to be cut off. If there is room on the PCB it can be a good idea to include the extra alignment holes even if the PCB is intended to be used for plate mounting, since this makes it possible to use either plate or PCB mounted switches.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: geekabit on Thu, 15 March 2012, 08:42:48
I'm interested, if under 200 EUR/USD/GBP
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: geekabit on Thu, 15 March 2012, 08:49:47
I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing. You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 March 2012, 09:59:41
Quote from: PrinsValium;546572
There is no big difference between PCB and plate mounted switches. The only thig is that there are two extra plastic pins to orient the PCB mounted switches better. This means that it is completely possible to use plate mounted switches instead where there is supposed to be PCB mounted ones. It only takes some more care to make sure the switches are soldered in straight.


The plastic pins are not intended to help installation/soldering, their main benefit is stability/sturdiness. A regular MX switch with only 2 thin terminals to hold it, especially considering they are offset to one side of the switch, cannot withstand pulling keycaps. I've tried both types of switches in my kinesis mod (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579) and I know. A plate-mounted switch with diodes, has a better chance of surviving without pins, but a normal switch won't hold over time unless you never pull your keycaps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 March 2012, 10:30:12
I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 15 March 2012, 10:49:23
Quote from: geekabit;546635
I was wondering, why connect both halves together and only one hand to USB. Wouldn't it be more flexible to give both halves their own processor and USB cable? That way you could even decide to use only one half for single-handed typing.

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

Quote from: geekabit;546635
You could even incorporate a USB hub in the back, so you can daisy-chain the keyboard and plug in your mouse as well.

Most likely there's no room for one, and if anything I'd think that it'd be a diy thing for individual people if they want to do that sort of thing. Maybe someday we'll have a free and open source controller/firmware implementation with all these things built in, but one can only dream [of enough free time to focus on something like that].
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 March 2012, 13:00:33
Quote from: PrinsValium;546688
I don't really think the switch modules were designed with keycap pulling in mind.. The pegs (I guess this is a less confusing word than pin in this case) could possibly contribute to mechanical stability under normal usage as well though. But I still think the main design goal is to make sure the switches are mounted straight. Using the specified diameter for the lead holes, there is quite enough rotational play to allow for messed up functionality.

Anyway, the pcb should have the holes, and folks are free to use whatever switches they like. For plate mounted switches without a plate, I would recommend hotgluing them on the PCB before soldering. Personally I love switches with pegs AND diodes, they are solid strong!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Necroleachate on Wed, 21 March 2012, 12:00:25
I dream about a keyboard like this.
Only con is price.
If it gets below $ 200 I would consider buying it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Wed, 21 March 2012, 13:25:55
Quote from: Necroleachate;552569
I dream about a keyboard like this.
Only con is price.
If it gets below $ 200 I would consider buying it.

I'm right there with you...

Considering if price reaches sub $200 range.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 21 March 2012, 13:54:16
Quote from: Parak;546704
This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is rather complicated to implement. For one, the two halves still need to connect to each other in some way because certain key functionality doesn't pass from one usb keyboard to another. In addition, there needs to be specific firmware logic that is then able to treat the two separate controllers and matrices as one in some way, considering the key map assignments in dual and standalone modes and such.

That depends on how the user wants to configure his keyboard. Not everyone needs a hardware layer.

I think that the firmware should be one firmware downloaded individually to each keyboard via USB. On boot, each keyboard should auto-detect whether it is left or right (by a pin on the PCB), where it get its power from USB (Master or Stand-alone) or link-cable (Slave) and act accordingly. Each keyboard should store its own keymap. A special key combo to enter a Remap (like Kinesis Remap key) could be executed on either keyboard. When in Slave mode, the keyboard should handle keymap remapping commands from the Master through the link cable.
That would mean that if you want to remap the keyboards or use a hardware layer, then you need the link cable. If you remap the keyboards and then reconnect both through USB then they should remember the keymaps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 21 March 2012, 15:06:34
If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical.  But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.

On the plus side, if DOX changes his mind, treating the 2nd Teensy as an I/O expander until proper dual Teensy firmware could be written should be fairly trivial.  Or if he doesn't, I suppose one could always buy another Teensy, put it inside an Altoids can with a few connectors (which I think looks really cool, lol), and use that as the right hand side to save desk space when they only want to use the left.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 21 March 2012, 17:46:34
Quote from: ic07;552763
If you're willing to consider them truly separate keyboards when connecting them separately, it might be practical.  But DOX specifically said he'd use at most 1 Teensy and 1 I/O expander.
This.

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45211[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]45212[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OPTiK on Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:15:37
Quote from: Dox;552911
This.

I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. Those pins tiny! 0.5mm pitch. Anyone know the best way to solder those with a standard soldering iron?
(Attachment) 45211[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 45212[/ATTACH]

A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:34:35
I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]45248[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:49:19
Quote from: OPTiK;553025
A really fine tip with fine guage wire lol. I could do that with my 12 watt soldering iron, doubt you can do it with a radio shack iron.
Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 21 March 2012, 20:58:03
I'm getting excited
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:10:47
Quote from: dorkvader;553054
Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?

Yes those are surface mount. I would need the datasheet of the connector to check if the holes would interfere.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:50:28
Quote from: Dox;553042
I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
(Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]


How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Wed, 21 March 2012, 21:56:47
Quote from: sordna;553089
Quote from: Dox;553042
I have done the right hand PCB layout. I'll add the option for PCB mounted switch as well as diodes inside the switch.
(Attachment) 45248[/ATTACH]
How about you make the PCB accommodate cherry switches that include the diodes? (and for folks not using switches with diodes, they can still surface-solder diodes at the same soldering points. Shouldn't be hard to make the PCB take DW switches (with pins, with diodes).
....
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 22 March 2012, 01:26:16
Quote from: Dox;552911
I got some HDMI connectors today to do some prototyping. [...]


This doesn't mean I'm too late with the i2C firmware, does it?  Couldn't say I'm close yet, but I'm making progress...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 22 March 2012, 01:28:17
I plan to get red switches from Kinesis btw, they only sell pcb-mounted switches with pins and diodes, here's a couple I got a while back (photo is from my wiki. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39304&d=1328162640)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Thu, 22 March 2012, 02:41:50
Dead set on using an HDMI connector? That's way beyond my soldering skill level! D:
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 22 March 2012, 09:11:13
ic07, you're not too late, I'm using HDMI until you get something working, but I want this to progress.

sordna, switches with pins and diodes will be supported.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 22 March 2012, 19:05:03
Quote from: dorkvader;553054
Alternatively, you can just flood over all the pins with a bunch of solder bridges, then suck off the excess with (normally) some copper braid.

Those are surface mount, right? Will there be PCB support for if I want to -say- get some through-hole ones?


After a few tries you get the amount of solder correct. After that it is a smooth experience (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06malVew40) =)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 23 March 2012, 00:30:51
Yeah, but I'm still a little worried about all the relatively fine pitch chips I need to solder for a project I'm getting into.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: laffindude on Fri, 23 March 2012, 01:36:40
Hi. I am still in this even if I don't really check the thread. I see we're still stuck on the case. I am gonna fire off an email to a friend to see if he can help with the aluminum case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tradet on Sat, 24 March 2012, 18:26:11
Sounds tempting. Interested depending on the price. $200 maybe?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Tue, 27 March 2012, 00:37:51
Quote from: PrinsValium;554008
After a few tries you get the amount of solder correct. After that it is a smooth experience (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06malVew40) =)


I may be a bit of a soldering amateur, but damn that was awesome.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 27 March 2012, 00:47:00
This video is very impressive, such CLEAN soldering !!!

[video=youtube;5uiroWBkdFY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiroWBkdFY[/video]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 02 April 2012, 22:09:13
Got I2C working the other day!  And spring break's coming up, so I'm hoping (God willing) to have at the very least some beta quality firmware done by the end of next week.  I'll post my documentation and code when I get it working.  Sorry it's taken so long, but thanks for being patient :) .
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 04 April 2012, 01:44:27
This is very good news, ic07! I am impressed with both your dedication and your results. We are patient here: Time is what is necessary for proper design.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 06 April 2012, 06:02:33
G'damn these things are small. I ordered a bunch of 0402 components for using when reconstructing the Teensy directly on the main board. Time to do some practice I think, buying a finer tipped soldering iron, and finding someone willing to borrow me a stereo loupe perhaps...

[video=youtube;66GV4OuShzI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GV4OuShzI[/video]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 06 April 2012, 07:59:30
Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly.  Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered.  Sometimes it happens.  Then finish it out.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Fri, 06 April 2012, 09:32:28
keep it up guys, in for at least one regardless of price.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: QuinRiva on Fri, 06 April 2012, 10:37:33
I've been interested in making something along these lines for a while, and I've done a quick mock up based on Dox's design.  Mine will largely be sheetmetal based as that is the tools I have access to, so I'm looking at having the keys plate mounted and having the left and right keyboard mounted on a chair.  As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions.

Also what have you used to draw the model and where have you sourced the switch models?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47545[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 06 April 2012, 12:04:40
Quote from: ic07;565242
Got I2C working the other day!  And spring break's coming up, so I'm hoping (God willing) to have at the very least some beta quality firmware done by the end of next week.  I'll post my documentation and code when I get it working.  Sorry it's taken so long, but thanks for being patient :) .
Great! I'll wait for your documentation!

Quote from: PrinsValium;568588
G'damn these things are small. I ordered a bunch of 0402 components for using when reconstructing the Teensy directly on the main board. Time to do some practice I think, buying a finer tipped soldering iron, and finding someone willing to borrow me a stereo loupe perhaps...

[video=youtube;66GV4OuShzI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GV4OuShzI[/video]
Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.

Quote from: QuinRiva;568863
I've been interested in making something along these lines for a while, and I've done a quick mock up based on Dox's design.  Mine will largely be sheetmetal based as that is the tools I have access to, so I'm looking at having the keys plate mounted and having the left and right keyboard mounted on a chair.  As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions.

Also what have you used to draw the model and where have you sourced the switch models?

(Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]
Interesting, are you going to use a curved PCB or just and wire it?
 I used SolidWorks for the model and I did the switch myself from the pictures and dimensions here (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 06 April 2012, 16:47:26
Quote from: alaricljs;568654
Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly.  Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered.  Sometimes it happens.  Then finish it out.

Yeah, the video pretty much shows how to do it, nothing new there either really. The thing is though, I could barely grab one of them with my "pointy" tip tweezers. Have to go needle tip with these suckers. I can probably fit ten or so of them on the tip of my soldering iron as well... Have to consider spacing on the layout as well to be able to get down to all solder pads.

Quote from: Dox;568947
Man, thee things are sooo tiny, you should have gone with some 0603 or 0805.

I am going to seriously consider this.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Fri, 06 April 2012, 17:36:05
Quote from: alaricljs;568654
Tin both pads, hold the 0402 down to the board with tweezers hit 1 pad with the soldering iron briefly.  Check to see if the other pad got sufficiently heated to be properly soldered.  Sometimes it happens.  Then finish it out.


Don't do that. If the tin on the other pad doesn't heat up properly the component will be raised above the pad. Tin one pad, place component and solder in place, then do the other pad.

I have a stereo microscope and some very fine tips. It helps but it doesn't make the shaking go away. ;D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 06 April 2012, 17:55:28
Quote from: QuinRiva;568863
As far as curvature goes that isn't really much of a problem for me as I can do that pretty easily, but I've been having trouble trying to determine the best direction for curvature and the dimensions. (Attachment) 47545[/ATTACH]
It is not that easy. The edges of each switch hole have to be straight and parallel or the switches will not fit properly.
You would have to separate the columns ...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Fri, 06 April 2012, 17:57:46
I hope it gets easier in the final product. I am comfortable with switch sized leads, but I don't own a microscope or steady hands for components this tiny. hehe
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: QuinRiva on Sat, 07 April 2012, 00:58:06
Deflection is pretty small (0.3mm difference in height between the edge and the centre, and 0.2mm in the y-axis, but the later can be accounted for by bend deductions).  However I take your point, so I might try to knock something up with a transverse FR curve along the x-axis.  As far as precision goes, my pressbrake is rated at 0.002mm so that shouldn't be an issue:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]47655[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: QuinRiva on Sun, 08 April 2012, 02:53:20
I've removed all curvature across the key-holes, and I'm working on the edges.  I've made the corners square for the moment, but I think that I've worked out a way around that, but it uses a crap load more metal.

Dox, is it possible to get a dimensional drawing of your design?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47771[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 08 April 2012, 15:00:26
QuinRiva: that's a good looking keywell. If we could get kinesis-like keywells on this project, it would be amazing!

Couple of manufactureing difficulties:
1. it would be significantly harder to make. I imagine the only cost-effective way to get that shape would be to stamp it
2. It raises the question on how to make a "base" for it. I wolud be fine with what is shown in your image, having an "open" keyboard like that, but if there needs to be some sort of case made, I imagine it would be difficult
3. Making a PCB for that would be difficult, involving either multiple PCBs with connectors, or some sort of shaped/curved/flexible PCB

Nevertheless, the design is good, and all the issues aren't insurmountable. I imagine one could solder it point-to-point without too much difficulty. I don't know what it'd be to stamp them, though.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 08 April 2012, 15:44:03
Maltron keyboards are all signed by the person who makes them.  Any plans for the people involved in this project to do the same?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 08 April 2012, 16:03:26
Like this thread!

I like signing them too...how cool is that?????
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: QuinRiva on Mon, 09 April 2012, 03:17:52
Quote from: dorkvader;570763
QuinRiva: that's a good looking keywell. If we could get kinesis-like keywells on this project, it would be amazing!

Couple of manufactureing difficulties:
1. it would be significantly harder to make. I imagine the only cost-effective way to get that shape would be to stamp it
2. It raises the question on how to make a "base" for it. I wolud be fine with what is shown in your image, having an "open" keyboard like that, but if there needs to be some sort of case made, I imagine it would be difficult
3. Making a PCB for that would be difficult, involving either multiple PCBs with connectors, or some sort of shaped/curved/flexible PCB

Nevertheless, the design is good, and all the issues aren't insurmountable. I imagine one could solder it point-to-point without too much difficulty. I don't know what it'd be to stamp them, though.

1.  Not really, as I have stated I intend to use a laser and press-brake to manufacture.  Cost effectiveness is difficult to gauge as the large number of folds, most of which need to be accurate, demand a good-press brake and experienced operator.  I have access to a good pressbrake and my operator is an Astro robot.  However Dox's design could be manufactured on the cheap using sheet metal particularly if he squared the corners.
2.  I've already designed the base (see pictures below); however I don't intend to have an enclosure that sits around the keys.  It wouldn't be too hard to make, I just don't think that it is necessary for plate mounted keyboards.
3.  Not really, I intend to just use a flexible PCB (http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Flexible-Printed-Circuits/).  They can be a bit tricky to solder on, so I think that the best option is to use a solid PCB for the core components, and then a flexible PCB for the keys.

Hope that makes some sense.  Keep up the suggestions though, as this is my first time at this sort of thing.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47882[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47883[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47884[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 09 April 2012, 04:46:22
I like the idea of the bend-to-create-a-case, but I don't like the curvature. First of all it's too exaggerated, the pinkies would likely suffer having to hit the edge columns at such an angle. Anyway, I would like this keyboard to be flat for the following reasons:

1. It would make it much easier to type with one hand whenever you wanted to
2. It would make it easier to type with 2-3 fingers on each hand (RSI battling technique)
3. We don't need another Kinesis, whoever wants keywells can buy a pair from Kinesis with red or brown switches soldered in place and ready to go for just $90.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Mon, 09 April 2012, 15:16:26
Right, I was about to say the same thing as Sordna, just a little different. If you want keywells, buy Kinesis keywells and make the rest of the case. Kinesis keywells are plastic but that shouldn't be a problem because there are keys on top of it so you can't see it anyway. :)

Apart from that I would say, if you're going for keywells make sure they're different from the Kinesis it would be much more interesting.

Personally I am very much looking forward to the flat version as well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 09 April 2012, 16:03:18
Custom case for a pair of kinesis keywells sounds like a great spin off project for someone...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Mon, 09 April 2012, 16:17:16
Quote from: Icarium;571685
Right, I was about to say the same thing as Sordna, just a little different. If you want keywells, buy Kinesis keywells and make the rest of the case. Kinesis keywells are plastic but that shouldn't be a problem because there are keys on top of it so you can't see it anyway. :)

Apart from that I would say, if you're going for keywells make sure they're different from the Kinesis it would be much more interesting.

Personally I am very much looking forward to the flat version as well.

I agree with this too.

I much prefer the idea of the original flat project.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 09 April 2012, 18:08:12
Agreed. The curving keyboard is unappealing to my dollars.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 09 April 2012, 19:13:14
I have made a 3D keyboard design that is a middle-ground between Dox's flat keyboard, Kinesis key wells and standard QWERTY. I made several physical models to try it out, both in clay and with key switches and test typed on them. I am still stumped on how to manufacture a small run and not cost a fortune. Anyway ...

One conclusion that I came to is that I don't like the feeling when keys switches are angled too much. The ideal (for me) would actually be if all switches are pointing in the same direction but with curvature being from switches at different heights and with custom key caps.
Slanted columns and traditional key caps may feel better than flat, but only if the curvature is very slight.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 10 April 2012, 01:37:09
QuinRiva, what I forgot to say is that it looks like a really cool concept.   If it ever goes ahead, please let me know.

Please don't feel under appreciated.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mbc on Tue, 10 April 2012, 05:30:26
About the cases. You could contact the guy that copied litster's case about producing your cases
 It would be a lot cheaper than aluminium
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: QuinRiva on Wed, 11 April 2012, 03:41:02
I wasn't aware that the Kinesis Keywells were available separately, that would substantially simplify the manufacturing process.  Does anyone know how I would go about buying the keywells (with Cherry Reds) and potentially the thumb area from Australia?

Also does anyone know where I could get a dimensionalised drawing of the keywells?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 11 April 2012, 10:50:26
Just go to http://kinesis-ergo.com/ and you'll find contact info. Email them and ask, they sell parts and everything, including keywells with reds which they sell as an upgrade.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 12 April 2012, 02:15:05
Beta firmware's ready :D .  As far as I can tell from a little testing on my breadboard at least - it looks stable.

The project is on github at https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware.


The pertinent files at this point are probably:

- The diagram of how i have it set up: [ATTACH=CONFIG]48135[/ATTACH]
(which is also here as an svg (https://raw.github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/_circuit-diagram.svg), but it looks like you'll have to download it to view it)

- The text documentation for the Teensy 2.0 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/teensy-2-0.md) and MCP23018 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/mcp23018.md) code (which is less visually clear, but has lots more notes)

- And the hex file (https://github.com/downloads/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/ergodox-firmware--20120411_2105.hex) of the current firmware build :)


For notes on what it can do at the moment see the readme.md (on github) or the last commit message for the master branch.  Let me know what you guys think :) .

::edit::
Wow, just realized I reversed the row pins for the MCP23018 in my diagram.  It's correct in the .md file though.  I'll have to fix the diagram later.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 11:24:41
Awesome job ic07! I'm going to order a few MCP23018 and modify my design accordingly.

Now, what would be the best 4 wire connector/cable.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Thu, 12 April 2012, 11:34:10
This threads made me buy teensys and a breadboard.. I think I may be hooked...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 12 April 2012, 12:07:44
4 pin Mini-DIN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector#4-pin)?

4 conductor "stereo" 3.5mm TRRS (http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/4_Conductor_3_5mm_Plugs_and_Jacks.html)?

2.5mm TRRS for silly smallness.

RJ11 would be nice but I bet the jack is too big.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: uberben on Thu, 12 April 2012, 12:13:40
You could also go with a standard phone cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4P4C#4P4C). Especially if this is going to be sold in volume, it would allow the end user to replace with whatever length and style (ie curly/straight) they like by running over to the nearest dollar store.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 12 April 2012, 13:48:22
Curly phone cable would be ideal for this application!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 17:18:02
A phone cable would be great but unfortunately the 4p4c socket is to high to fit in the case. The same goes for Mini-DIN.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 12 April 2012, 17:21:24
I'm sure there has to be low profile enough sockets... a lot of phones/headsets seem to have pretty compact sockets on them.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 18:06:46
Quote from: sordna;574063
I'm sure there has to be low profile enough sockets... a lot of phones/headsets seem to have pretty compact sockets on them.

Sadly no. There is only 11.43mm from the top of the PCB to the top of the case so I would say that the maximum height for the connector is 8mm. The smallest 4p4c I found was about 15mm.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 12 April 2012, 18:17:17
Can't the PCB have a cutaway so that the socket has more room up and down? Of course the socket should be secured by the case, not by the PCB (you would need some flexible leads between socket and PCB).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 18:36:25
Quote from: sordna;574103
Can't the PCB have a cutaway so that the socket has more room up and down? Of course the socket should be secured by the case, not by the PCB (you would need some flexible leads between socket and PCB).
No, those sockets need to be soldered/fixed on the PCB and even if I was doing that, the distance from the interior bottom to the top of the case is 16mm (13mm usable for a connector) it's still not enough.
Let's find something else!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 12 April 2012, 18:44:15
I still like the 3.5mm (or 2.5mm) TRRS best, especially aesthetically - as long as it's possible to make it safe from shorting Vcc and any of the other 3.  It looks like the size limitations are going to keep things small enough for my taste whatever gets decided on though :) .

If using 2 sockets is an option, have you looked at any of those small coaxial power connectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)?

Or something simple like a small 4 pin molex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector)?  (Actually, I used to think this connector would be too big and not very pretty, but now I'm starting to think it might look cool...)

sordna:  If you want a curly phone cable anyway, you could always cut the connectors off one and solder some others in their place.  I've been sort of planning on making my own cable if I can, just to get the size and such just right.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 18:58:54
Quote from: ic07;574128
I still like the 3.5mm (or 2.5mm) TRRS best, especially aesthetically - as long as it's possible to make it safe from shorting Vcc and any of the other 3.  It looks like the size limitations are going to keep things small enough for my taste whatever gets decided on though :) .

If using 2 sockets is an option, have you looked at any of those small coaxial power connectors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector)?

Or something simple like a small 4 pin molex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector)?  (Actually, I used to think this connector would be too big and not very pretty, but now I'm starting to think it might look cool...)

sordna:  If you want a curly phone cable anyway, you could always cut the connectors off one and solder some others in their place.  I've been sort of planning on making my own cable if I can, just to get the size and such just right.

Yeah think that the TRRS option is the best for now. Avoiding to short the Vcc is easy, just put the power on the contact that is the furthest outside of the case. That way, there is no chance to short anything.
I prefer to use cables/connectors that are build for external use. That rules out the molex and ribbon cables.
I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Thu, 12 April 2012, 19:47:40
Quote from: Dox;574136
I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=CP-43514-ND ?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 12 April 2012, 19:50:19
Quote from: Dox;574136
I can't seem to find a pcb mounted 4 contact TRRS 3.5 or 2.5mm. I have to continue searching.


Would this 2.5mm audio jack (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SJ1-42515TS/CP1-42515TS-ND/659902) work?  Kps linked to it a while ago (I remembered because it was just just before I joined the forum and they were talking about I2C).

Or maybe this 3.5mm audio jack (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SJ-43515TS/CP-43515TS-ND/368147) would be better - or maybe there's a different one on there that'd be preferable, I'm not really sure what some of the specs mean so I couldn't tell. :)

Quote from: Dox;574136
Avoiding to short the Vcc is easy, just put the power on the contact that is the furthest outside of the case.


What about things like if the connector gets plugged in to the right hand side first, and then shorts on the left hand side case (or some keys, or something)?  Or am I just being paranoid now, lol.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Thu, 12 April 2012, 20:00:35
Thanks Parak, order placed!

ic07, I prefer the 3.5mm as there is enough place for it and it will be more sturdy.
No matter what side you plug first, with the power on the outside, I think there is no chance to short anything.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 13 April 2012, 15:53:31
ic07, I'm trying to compile your firmware but I get this error.
Code: [Select]


Compiling C: lib-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.c
avr-gcc -c -mmcu=atmega32u4         -I. -gdwarf-2 -DF_CPU=16000000UL -Os -funsigned-char -funsigned-
bitfields -ffunction-sections -fpack-struct -fshort-enums -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wa,-adhlns=./li
b-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.lst -I. -std=gnu99 -MMD -MP -MF .dep/usb_keyboard.o.d lib-oth
er/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.c -o lib-other/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o


Linking: firmware.elf
avr-gcc -mmcu=atmega32u4         -I. -gdwarf-2 -DF_CPU=16000000UL -Os -funsigned-char -funsigned-bit
fields -ffunction-sections -fpack-struct -fshort-enums -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wa,-adhlns=lib-oth
er/pjrc/usb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o -I. -std=gnu99 -MMD -MP -MF .dep/firmware.elf.d lib-other/pjrc/u
sb_keyboard/usb_keyboard.o --output firmware.elf -Wl,-Map=firmware.map,--cref -Wl,--relax -Wl,--gc-s
ections     -lm
c:/winavr-20100110/bin/../lib/gcc/avr/4.3.3/../../../../avr/lib/avr5/crtm32u4.o:(.init9+0x0): undefi
ned reference to `main'
MAKE[1]: *** [firmware.elf] Error 1
MAKE[1]: Leaving directory `C:/Users/Dox/GIT/benblazak-ergodox-firmware-201e38c/src'
MAKE: *** [all] Error 2

I also tried your compiled .hex and nothing is happening. Any idea what's going on?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 13 April 2012, 21:54:35
I think the compile error was from me using `$(shell find ... '*.c')` in the makefile (which in windows probably meant that no .c files were included in the build at all, lol).  Sorry, I forgot to think about that.  Hopefully it works now (using `$(wildcard ... *.c)`).

As for the .hex, I just downloaded and retested it on my little setup, and it worked...  What should happen is:
- all the LEDs should go high for about 1 second (while USB initializes and we wait for drivers to load)
- then all LEDs should go off unless one of the indicators is currently set (I have numlock on in the picture below)
- it should wait for "keypresses" and generate them if they're detected

Did I do the diagram wrong?  I'll put an actual pic of my setup below just in case.  

breadboard setup:
- note: row and column pins are disconnected; i don't have switches of any type at the moment, so i've been using temporary wires when i needed to test for keypresses
[ATTACH=CONFIG]48226[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 13 April 2012, 23:26:45
Ok the hex file is working, I had my 2.2k resistors to the ground instead of vcc :doh:.
I can now compile it too with the revised makefile.
Thanks!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 15 April 2012, 11:44:15
I have tested the firmware on a breadboard and everything seem to work fine.
I'm now modifying my 3d model with the 3.5mm TRRS and then the pcb.
After 6 months, this is getting very close to the first prototype. Thanks to everyone who got involved in a way or an other until now!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: lorem3k on Sun, 15 April 2012, 22:04:52
You could probably use threaded 3.5mm connectors for extra connection strength.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 18 April 2012, 01:40:38
Quote from: lorem3k;575797
You could probably use threaded 3.5mm connectors for extra connection strength.

Normally, I'm rather against those, but in this case, I think it's okay, as you can use non threaded connectors with most (All?) threaded jacks. I think the real issue now is finding threaded TRRS connectors.

Bytheway, I would still prefer to have two 3.5mm jacks (one to send, and one to receive). It'd be much more flexible in terms of choice (there are a million TS and TRS jacks) and TS and TRS plugs are very durable, and easy to find. I grabbed 20 or so Neutrik (now REAN) NYS-231 TRS plugs. You can get them ~$.70 shipped in low quantities (.90 for the TRS version)
http://www.daleproaudio.com/p-4058-neutrik-nys226-35mm-ts-mono-connector-nickelsilver.aspx

These are easy to solder to, cheap and in practice have been more durable than the extremely beefy Canare F-16

One issue is that you'd be carrying mixed signals power/data on the same connector.
---
I anticipate the largest issue with the TRRS connector is the fact that when it's plugged or unplugged, you will temporarily short each connector to ground as you unplug it or plug it in. This may not be a big issue for the data lines, but there should be some protection for when the power is temporarily shorted to ground.

I will continue looking for a beefy enough low profile connector suitable for this task.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rburrows on Mon, 23 April 2012, 23:09:32
I love this design and I'm interested in one for ~$400, possibly w/ soldering service.

I have a note/suggestion (apologies if this is already covered upthread):

Is it a deliberate design choice to have outer-bottom key normal-sized rather than wide like the 4 above it? From my own experience with the equivalent key as a modifier (alt) on the Truly Ergonomic board, having a wider key helps in two ways:

As a single modifier: I tend to move my whole arm slightly out of home row alignment. This coarse motion stays accurate because of the wider key surface (Fitts' Law at work?). Similarly, I find swatting the wide hyphen/minus on the top corner of the TE to be easier than on a traditional board.

As a combo modifier with the key above: In this case, the pinky would actuate the bottom key and the ring finger the key above it. The pinky naturally wants to rest farther out than the ring finger, and in the current layout would tend to locate over the "empty" space that could be captured by a wider key.

You're probably too far along on schematics and prototyping but I thought I'd put in my two cents. Keep up the great work!

-Rob

[ATTACH=CONFIG]48815[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tjweir on Wed, 25 April 2012, 06:50:12
I'd like to register my interest at $300 and offer a bit of inspiration:
http://www.otd.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=album&wr_id=116384
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 25 April 2012, 10:04:11
I have followed this thread closely for a month now, and have slowly built up enthusiasm for this project. Thus, I will throw my name in the hat as well, for anywhere between $300 and $400 (Edit: This would be fully assembled WITH keycaps). I very much look forward to seeing the first prototype!

Cheers,

Ben
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Thu, 26 April 2012, 04:16:37
I'm not sure if any of you guys have seen this over at DT; it's a lovely split ergo 'home brew'.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-diy-keyboard-collection-or-how-i-became-a-kb-geek-t2534.html (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-diy-keyboard-collection-or-how-i-became-a-kb-geek-t2534.html)

(http://deskthority.net/resources/bluecube-inside-view/3109)
(http://deskthority.net/resources/bluecube-laying-flat/3108)
(http://deskthority.net/resources/setup-with-mainly-standard-caps/3112)
(http://deskthority.net/resources/very-little-space-inside-but-just-enough/3113)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Spharx on Thu, 26 April 2012, 07:57:47
Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.
Did you considered to make this projects more public so that you can find maybe company's who are willing to buy in larger scales or even sponsors?
I would buy a metal version for up to 200$ ... but this would be a miracle if this could be happen.

Pls update the first post if something changes in the design or the price since this is the first information that a uninformed person will get.
Quote
Last edited by Dox; 27 Dec 2011 at 17:15.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Thu, 26 April 2012, 10:54:18
Quote from: Spharx;582682
Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.
Did you considered to make this projects more public so that you can find maybe company's who are willing to buy in larger scales or even sponsors?
I would buy a metal version for up to 200$ ... but this would be a miracle if this could be happen.

Pls update the first post if something changes in the design or the price since this is the first information that a informed person will get.

Or even something like Kickstarter?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: suka on Thu, 26 April 2012, 11:21:50
Quote from: Spharx;582682
Damn this is gonna be expensive ;( and also I don't like the shapeways idea.
As I mentioned on deskthority the case parts of the blue split keyboard would cost around 50€  or even less if optimized for it. which I find rather cheap - but for that flat design a custom PCB would also work, true.  But then there would still be no case around it.

The idea of promoting it is tempting, but after that Desaster with the other great design on this forum (can't remember the name, programmable tenkeyless with tracking that was later copied in China) I am not anxious to put my work and money into something that would be too easy to copy anyways.  So open-sourcing the design documents and firmware as well as giving some help building it will allow anybody interested to recreate or better yet improve the design.



Gesendet von meinem MB525 mit Tapatalk 2
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 26 April 2012, 14:02:20
Do you mean Lowpoly's mini-guru?  Or Lilster's filco/phantom case?

The danger of something more public like kickstarter is that you start to cross the line from a hobby to a job.  Hobbies are far more likely to be fun.

This is truly a boutique product.  Unless some company steals the idea, you may never get the chance again.  Grab it with both hands and get your wallet out.

I'm sorry for the rant.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 26 April 2012, 14:07:22
Quote from: hoggy;582978
I'm sorry for the rant.

If that was a rant I think your blood sugar must be low, or perhaps you're on some depressant?

Anyhow, while kickstarter is nifty there's a whole lot of work to put into making a project KS ready, and there's a whole lot of money that gets eaten by KS.  Also if you decide to go the KS route, you are deciding that if the KS funding falls through the project doesn't happen.  I don't know what sort of link you get to your funders, but here Dox gets the ability to say that he's going through with it one way or the other and the more people that are interested the lower the price is.  You can't vary pricing in KS based on funding and I'm sure they would crack down on someone trying to use KS as a communications platform to get the under-funded project going with different pricing by way of paypal.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 26 April 2012, 15:25:47
Suka: Your project is awesome.  Jim66, thanks for the original post.  If I ever do a keyboard completely by myself, I'm gunna be digging out your link :) .  Also (in response to some comments on the deskauthority thread), for using a connector between the two halves, have you considered I2C or SPI I/O expanders?  It looks like we'll stick with I2C for this project, but if you're willing to accept the extra wire (5 total instead of 4) SPI would be much faster (from experiment, a simple usage of I2C seems to limit the scan rate to ~167Hz IIRC).  We have a firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) (that's not quite done, but should be stable enough) that'll handle I2C, if you didn't want to just add the capability to your own.  And if the Teensy has similar hardware support for SPI I doubt it'd be overly hard to add.  Anyway, thanks for the write up :) .


[/HR]

Rburrows, tjweir, OrangeJewce: I've been considering dorkvader kind of the official greeter all this time, but I wanted to welcome you too.  I'm glad to see people still posting to register interest!


[/HR]

And Dox, I know I'm way late, but I never said how excited I was (am) that we're getting close to first prototype. :D


[/HR]

About the connector:

Did we loose a few posts?  But anyway, the discussion made me think about it even more, and here's a few things I realized (I'll call the MCP23018 side the LH side, and the Teensy side the RH side, for the sake of brevity):



Also:




[/HR]

About the firmware:

I was wondering if anyone would care to design a QWERTY (and maybe Dvorak?) layout?  The current QWERTY layout is rather pathetic, but I just don't feel like putting that much time into it because I'm likely going to neglect both and give Arensito (http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard) a serious shot.  What I'm thinking, if I can get decent QWERTY and/or Dvorak layouts, is that I'll compile the firmware with all three layouts separately, and post 3 different .hex files for everyone's convenience.  If you'd like to take a look, please see the layout documentation file (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout.md) on github (make sure you're on the 'dev' branch), and let me know if you have any questions.

Partly implied in the above, I'm not currently planning to implement on-keyboard remapping.  I'm almost certain it wouldn't be technically hard (it might be almost trivial) with the current design, but I can't think of a good way to do it.  The thing is, if you're willing to learn the *smallest* bit about Make and C (or if you already know both; and I'll try to write a little howto before I consider the project done) you'll be able to remap to your heart's content *and* store keymaps much more easily than you could with on-keyboard remapping, and with no extra effort in the firmware.  If you're willing to learn a lot (or just a little extra, if you already know C), you'll be able to write new keypress/release functions (all keypresses and releases are function calls) and do most anything you want, which wouldn't be possible at all with other methods.  If anyone has some good ideas about how on-keyboard remapping could work though, I'd be interested to hear them; if only because it's a problem I couldn't think of an elegant solution to.

Also, I'm currently working on NKRO.  I'd really like to make it work, but I'm not completely sure if I'll have the patience.  Is this very important to people?

And if anyone has any other thoughts on the firmware I'd be interested to hear them, since the design is starting to finalize in my head.  Not sure what else I'll have the patience/time to implement, but suggestions are always good.

Thanks :) .  Sorry this post is so long.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 26 April 2012, 16:18:09
NKRO is a great feature when buying - I think it's less important when actually using.  A good deal of members love Model Ms - and they have 2KRO.


Did you mean 6KRO or full NKRO?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 26 April 2012, 16:21:40
Quote from: alaricljs;582989
If that was a rant I think your blood sugar must be low, or perhaps you're on some depressant?

There was a lot of editing...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 26 April 2012, 20:45:42
Quote from: hoggy;583086
Did you mean 6KRO or full NKRO?

Full NKRO.  Right now we have 6KRO + 8 modifiers, since that's what the PJRC usb_keyboard example (which implements the usb keyboard boot mode) has.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 27 April 2012, 00:33:08
Cool! 6 KRO + mods would be fine with me.  I don't type that fast and I use my fingers, not my fists.

I'll take a look at the layouts over the weekend if that's okay.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 27 April 2012, 01:11:26
Would the controller be able to handle mouse movements?  My initial idea would be to have an embedded cursor key set in the right half (layer key in the left half) and the same on the left, but for the mouse.  The mouse click buttons would be on the thumb keys in the same layer.


ijkl - cursor keys
edsf - mouse keys.  Mouse buttons on the two main thumb keys on the left half.

Any thoughts?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 27 April 2012, 02:35:54
:)  So it looks like I don't need to be sad if NKRO falls through then.  I *do* still want to try though, just because it'd be a shame for the USB spec to beat me like that...

Quote from: hoggy;583601
I'll take a look at the layouts over the weekend if that's okay.

Thanks!

---

About mouse movements, it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard.  [EDIT: I tried it and it didn't work like I hoped - so it will be pretty hard, or at least pretty time consuming.  Oops.  But I'll see if I can do it anyway.]  Thanks for reminding me, by the way, I meant to support that at one point but then I forgot.  It's in my todo list now.

And, sorry, no thoughts on mouse keys from me - lol, to be honest, between gvim and a real mouse, I don't see their purpose - but I think lots of other people here will be happy to have them around :) .
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Fri, 27 April 2012, 02:40:45
Quote from: ic07;583044
If anyone has some good ideas about how on-keyboard remapping could work though, I'd be interested to hear them; if only because it's a problem I couldn't think of an elegant solution to.

What do you think about the Kinesis way (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/tech_support/remapping.htm)? The process is very simple:
1. Enter remapping mode by pressing some key combination
2. Press the key with the character you want to remap (source)
3. Press key at the location you want the above characters to be at (target)
4. Optionally repeat steps 2 and 3 for other keys
5. Exit remapping mode by pressing some key combination

While this is simple, there are some constraints: you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. That's mostly OK, but some people may want to move number row shifted symbols independently from the numbers themselves for example. Maybe advanced remappings such as this could require software, but basic remapping would not.

Important to note: In step 2 the current remapping does not matter, the "source" character is always from the default unremapped keyboard

Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sherryton on Fri, 27 April 2012, 15:09:48
Interested.  Please put me down dork!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 27 April 2012, 15:56:44
Quote from: boli;583673
What do you think about the Kinesis way (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/tech_support/remapping.htm)?


I think it's good, within the limitations you mentioned.  Additionally, you cannot save or reload previous maps that you've made, so to me it'd seem that it was only good for quick remaps involving just a few keys.  Also, as you mentioned, the "source" character is always from the default unremapped keyboard - but with a DIY project there is no One True Default keyboard, as there is with a commercial product.  Actually, if things work out, there will be Three True Defaults, lol, along with the option to roll your own, which I was thinking would be rather confusing (and the Kinesis method of making everyone use the default QWERTY map to remap, even if their keycaps are Dvorak, seems unreasonable to me).  So that would increase the documentation burden a bit - and the burden on the keymap designers.

Still, you're making me reconsider...  Are quick, small remaps common enough for it to be worth it?  Or, are Make and the avr-gcc toolchain (even with a nice howto written up) user unfriendly enough that the limitations of the Kinesis method are worth it for larger remaps?  I tend to forget that not everyone's perfectly at home with a terminal and a text editor, so I'm probably in need of some perspective here.

Quote from: boli;583673
[...] you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. [...]


In Kinesis defense, this is a (slightly annoying) consequence of how keyboards are designed.  That is, keys and shifted keys have the same keycode, and the host is responsible for registering different characters based on the presence of modifiers (which are either present for all the keys pressed, or none of them), so there's nothing the keyboard can do.  If you really wanted to move symbols around separately, it might be possible to implement shift as a layer key and use the standalone keycodes for symbols... but that'd be changing the meaning of things.

Which brings up another limitation of the Kinesis method: keycodes not present in the default layout aren't available at all.

Quote from: boli;583673
Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.


For what it's worth, modding the keymap in the firmware source would be OS independent too - and the software required already works (with slightly different interfaces) on every major OS.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 27 April 2012, 20:05:30
Quote from: hoggy;583634
Would the controller be able to handle mouse movements?

Quote from: ic07;583669
[...] it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard.  [...]


Spoke too soon :/ .  The PJRC keyboard and mouse code doesn't quite work together, so I have to go learn about device side USB before I can implement it, which might take a while.  Or I could use LUFA, but that looks just as hard.  Can't say when (or promise if) I'll have it done, but I'll work on it.  Sorry about that.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 27 April 2012, 20:10:53
There are other KB firmwares for the Teensy scattered about here, hasu has one w/ mousekeys.  You might learn from those.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: suka on Sat, 28 April 2012, 02:19:40
Give LUFA a try: it comes with several examples using both mouse and keyboard that serve as a good starting point.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 29 April 2012, 01:00:25
Quote from: sherryton;584107
Interested.  Please put me down dork!
Updated the list!

All this talk of programming: I'm personally not that excited about it, especially given how easy it should be to program a new layout on these things. It might be a handy thing to have, but ultimately, I'd rather get the work done on that when we're waiting for them to ship. Same with full NKRO. It'd be amazing, but it's a "want" not a needed feature, and I feel it should be implemented once we are assured of the production and all critical features are taken care of.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 29 April 2012, 08:04:21
Agreed
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fossala on Sun, 29 April 2012, 08:08:25
Is this still aiming at $400. What is included?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 29 April 2012, 14:19:31
Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:

Quote from: Dox;479955
Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint.
(Attachment) 36215[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 36214[/ATTACH]

2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.

To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).

Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 29 April 2012, 18:34:10
sounds good.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Autolyze on Sun, 29 April 2012, 18:51:47
I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 29 April 2012, 23:23:36
Quote from: dorkvader;585702
Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:



Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.

This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Mon, 30 April 2012, 03:09:40
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36215)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Mon, 30 April 2012, 19:08:01
Quote from: boli;586130
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:

I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 01 May 2012, 19:06:12
Quote from: Autolyze;585891
I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.
I'll add you to the list!

Quote from: OrangeJewce;586062
This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

Cheers,
I'm hoping we can get it down under $300, as a lot of people say they're committed up to that point.
Quote from: boli;586130
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36215)
Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Parak on Wed, 02 May 2012, 00:04:20
If the pcb design can be exported in gerber, the costs from the chinese pcb shops would be pretty low in volume, likely under $50 per pair. Even less due to 2x volume scale if the design can be mirrored, though this would be a bit tricky. Cherry switches can be flipped around though, but there's also connectors and chips to consider..
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Wed, 02 May 2012, 02:41:47
Quote from: jblack801;586795
I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.

How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :P

Quote from: dorkvader;587670
Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.

F# keys are also nice to double as media keys and such, possibly when some sort of Fn is pressed (as e.g. on Apple keyboards). IMO Esc needs to be available on the top layer (without any modifiers) - that shouldn't be a problem with the extra keys around the main area.

As for the F# (and media) keys, I'm aware that 4 layers on the number row could partially do it (normal, shifted, function and media). There are not enough keys to spare for dedicated F#/media keys... Compared to a Kinesis Advantage it as 5 fewer keys overall (8 more in the main area, 13 less in the function row).

On the Kinesis I use most F# keys as media keys (most importantly play/pause and volume controls), and some of them as the real F# keys, namely those used for debugging in Eclipse. All of these are on the top layer, no modifier needed.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mharrison on Wed, 02 May 2012, 10:35:29
Don't mean to rain on the parade, but when I see the exploded view of the layers, I'm concerned with the bolt design. The size of the holes, especially with the tapering, that close to the edge seems way too big. I'm not convinced that the corners will hold up. It would be awesome if someone with experience in industrial design could comment.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Wed, 02 May 2012, 10:43:36
I'm not sure if we are still going with this case design; not a lot has been said about the case recently.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Wed, 02 May 2012, 17:54:33
Quote from: boli;587911
How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :P
fn+"=/+"
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteRice on Fri, 11 May 2012, 22:57:09
Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 11 May 2012, 23:52:05
Quote from: WhiteRice;590236
Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?

Yup, it's nearing prototype :) .  And it's DOX's project - though there is a bit of community effort going on for interest tracking (dorkvader), and firmware (me), and a few people have said they might be able to make keymaps.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 12 May 2012, 13:01:52
I'm glad I have the interest list saved on my computer: Just reupdated the second post.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteRice on Sat, 12 May 2012, 16:16:21
I'm in ~$400
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 18 May 2012, 13:43:21
Update Bump! :bump2:
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 18 May 2012, 14:29:58
I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.
I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 19 May 2012, 00:35:49
Quote from: Dox;595464
I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.
I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.
This is why we love you, Dox. You are super busy, and still dedicated.
I mean, I only work 30 hours a week, and I'm not doing hardly anything to help. You are an inspiration to us all.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 21 May 2012, 17:56:46
PCB done!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]50928[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 21 May 2012, 20:58:45
I have ordered some prototype PCBs. There is the option for PCB mounted switches, diode outside or inside the switch as well as SMD (http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/1N4148W-V-GS18/?qs=9UrfSeCy%252bVa2LauxRB857Njw2wTz92Gf).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 22 May 2012, 00:06:43
Wow, that's a good PCB, DOX!

I especially like the profusion of mounting holes. We sholud have no trouble with flex.

Are they one-sided PCB's with a lot of jumpers, or does the red denote traces on the second layer?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 22 May 2012, 00:25:49
Nice one, Dox!  My eyes started to follow the traces - it wasn't long before I got lost.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Tue, 22 May 2012, 01:14:57
Can u buy me a PCB set please :) I can't wait for a final kit!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 May 2012, 03:50:51
that's awesome, DOX!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Netdewt on Tue, 22 May 2012, 11:34:53
Will the PCBs be available a la carte?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Tue, 22 May 2012, 16:14:49
Nom, I'm with dirge on this! Can I buy a PCB? :D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 22 May 2012, 17:33:26
Quote from: dorkvader;597347
Wow, that's a good PCB, DOX!

I especially like the profusion of mounting holes. We sholud have no trouble with flex.

Are they one-sided PCB's with a lot of jumpers, or does the red denote traces on the second layer?
Thanks, these are 2 sided. The red traces are on the top layer of the PCB.

Quote from: hoggy;597357
Nice one, Dox!  My eyes started to follow the traces - it wasn't long before I got lost.
Thanks, it's quite hard to follow from the picture, especially with the ground planes.

Quote from: dirge;597369
Can u buy me a PCB set please :) I can't wait for a final kit!
FYI, the prototype PCBs cost me ~300$ for 2 sets. Prices will be much lower with bigger quantity but I ordered the minimum qty just to test everything.

Quote from: ic07;597396
that's awesome, DOX!
Thanks! Your firmware highly facilitate the tracing. I don't know if I have followed your intended matrix as I went for the simplest way to trace it with the assigned pins. There will probably be some remapping needed in the firmware. No big deal.

Quote from: Netdewt;597612
Will the PCBs be available a la carte?
Yes, when everything will be ready and tested!

Quote from: ped;597829
Nom, I'm with dirge on this! Can I buy a PCB? :D
I don't think a lot of people would want to pay 150$ for a set of PCB that are not even tested yet.

I should receive them next monday. Can't wait!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 22 May 2012, 18:07:26
Looking good, DOX!  Good to see all the diode placement options.  I just recently soldered SMD diodes to my KMAC.  It wasn't hard at all.  Just need steady hands.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Netdewt on Tue, 22 May 2012, 21:15:22
Quote from: Dox;597866
Yes, when everything will be ready and tested!

That might interest me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Tue, 22 May 2012, 21:32:38
Quote from: litster;597899
Looking good, DOX!  Good to see all the diode placement options.  I just recently soldered SMD diodes to my KMAC.  It wasn't hard at all.  Just need steady hands.
Thanks lister! I decided to put the SMD as it wasn't much more work and it's good to have options. I'll probably go for the trough hole ones on the first prototype as I have a few hundreds of them but I may try the SMD on the final or the second prototype PCB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 22 May 2012, 22:17:30
SMD diodes are a lot more expensive than through-hole diodes.  And Mouser is cheaper than digikey.  I ordered extra last time.  because I it was only a couple more dollars  to reach the next level of discount.

Hehe, send me a set of PCBs and I can test for SMD diodes placement.  :D  I will pay for it, if you have extra.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 22 May 2012, 23:37:40
Great stuff Dox! Keep up the amazing work!
Might even  have to bump my order up!

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 24 May 2012, 01:38:37
Nice to see pcb-mount switches with pins and diodes supported! Those are the kinds of switches kinesis sells.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Thu, 24 May 2012, 02:03:16
Kinesis sells individual switches?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Thu, 24 May 2012, 04:37:53
Quote from: litster;598987
Kinesis sells individual switches?

I think they sell the keywells and packs of 25 switches or something along those lines, but you have to email them about it as it's not listed anywhere.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Thu, 24 May 2012, 07:58:18
Dox I'm loving this, get pics of those boards the moment they arrive!  And I'm sure the boards would have been a bit cheaper if we'd thrown money at you for prototypes ;)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Thu, 24 May 2012, 12:13:24
Quote from: dirge;599071
Dox I'm loving this, get pics of those boards the moment they arrive!  And I'm sure the boards would have been a bit cheaper if we'd thrown money at you for prototypes ;)

Makes sense though, if he overlooked something and it needs manual fixing then you'd think "Damn, paid all that money for something 'broken'". With that said, I'd have paid for one at that price. But yeah, exciting! :D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 24 May 2012, 22:25:58
Quote from: litster;598987
Kinesis sells individual switches?

They sell reds in 15 packs for sure (I got 2 such packs already), for larger quantities it will probably have to be a special order, but they're accomodating.
All their switches are the style for their Kinesis Advantage (with pins for pcb mount, and with built-in diodes), so it would be MX1A-L1DW for their reds, and  MX1A-G1DW for their browns.

Boy is the Cherry Wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards) handy
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 25 May 2012, 02:31:57
sordna, do you know how much they charge for the switches?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 25 May 2012, 09:07:28
Teaser...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]51346[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 25 May 2012, 09:33:22
fascinating!! i don't think i'd be in for the casing, as I can never manage to type properly on split boards, but the boards are too intriguing to not build one up :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 25 May 2012, 09:40:34
Are those plated through-holes?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 25 May 2012, 09:41:36
You have to jump through hoops to not get plated holes when you use kicad.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteRice on Fri, 25 May 2012, 10:39:11
Quote from: dorkvader;599810
Are those plated through-holes?


I love it when you talk nerdy
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 25 May 2012, 10:56:52
So exciting Dox! Do you plan on posting pictures of you putting it all together?

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 25 May 2012, 14:41:10
Quote from: litster;599645
sordna, do you know how much they charge for the switches?

Yes, a 15-pack of reds (MX1A-L1DW) goes for $15. So it's a dollar a switch. Kinesis part number for the 15-pack is KC009REP, they mainly sell these packs to people that are converting their Advantage keyboards to the LF version (you would buy a pair of red keywells for $90 I believe, and a 15-pack to swap the thumbswitches). However I bought 2 packs (30 switches for $30) without buying any keywells. They should be able to do a better price for larger quantity of switches, we should ask them how much they would charge for maybe a 90-pack.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 25 May 2012, 15:12:17
yeah, I want these switches for ergo DOX as well as a custom keyboard I will be building that uses PCB mount switches with built in diodes.  But $1 each is too expensive.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 25 May 2012, 19:38:49
Pictures!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]51436[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51437[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51434[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51435[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51432[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51433[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]51438[/ATTACH]

One small problem. I have installed the diodes the same way I have done for the DoxKB but the scanning in inverted in IC07 firmware so nothing registers for the moment. I tested with a jumper and everything seem to work fine otherwise. I'll try to invert the scanning in the firmware as the diodes are a PITA to desolder in the small plated

The TRRS cable works like a charm! A HDMI cable would have been way too bulky.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tadbitnerdy on Fri, 25 May 2012, 20:18:25
Interested!  Amazing work!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 25 May 2012, 22:20:19
Quote from: Dox;600266
Pictures!
(Attachment) 51436[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51437[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51434[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51435[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51432[/ATTACH] (Attachment) 51433[/ATTACH]
(Attachment) 51438[/ATTACH]

One small problem. I have installed the diodes the same way I have done for the DoxKB but the scanning in inverted in IC07 firmware so nothing registers for the moment. I tested with a jumper and everything seem to work fine otherwise. I'll try to invert the scanning in the firmware as the diodes are a PITA to desolder in the small plated

The TRRS cable works like a charm! A HDMI cable would have been way too bulky.

http://youtu.be/p6RM6YE3EMI?t=25s
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 25 May 2012, 23:02:54
Does it have no soldermask?

Wow, that picture of it loaded up with switches, with the LED's on looks amazing! I want to convert it to ascii-art, type it up on the typewriter (I have no printer at the moment) and put it on the wall!

Now that you have the switches on a board, what do you think about the key placement? How does it feel?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 25 May 2012, 23:09:04
So cool! Oh, can you please make sure the firmware is such that cherry switches with built-in diodes work? That's what should dictate the orientation...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 26 May 2012, 00:02:55
Quote from: dorkvader;600371
Does it have no soldermask?

Wow, that picture of it loaded up with switches, with the LED's on looks amazing! I want to convert it to ascii-art, type it up on the typewriter (I have no printer at the moment) and put it on the wall!

Now that you have the switches on a board, what do you think about the key placement? How does it feel?
No soldermask as it's a "prototype". The final version will have a soldermask.
I haven't played much with it yet but I think the key placement is pretty much spot on from my first impressions.

Quote from: sordna;600373
So cool! Oh, can you please make sure the firmware is such that cherry switches with built-in diodes work? That's what should dictate the orientation...
The way I placed the diodes on the PCB is the same orientation as the built-in diodes. So the firmware should be revised to follow this.

Edit:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]51456[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 26 May 2012, 00:39:27
Quote from: Dox;600395
The way I placed the diodes on the PCB is the same orientation as the built-in diodes. So the firmware should be revised to follow this.


Oh grr, it should.  I'll do that then.  Might not be able to get to it for a few days though.  Sorry to be busy now that things are getting so exciting, lol.  I'll make time as soon as I can!

So what we want (since the MCP23018 is open drain) is to have the columns hi-Z (off) / drive low (on), and the rows input with pull-up?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Sat, 26 May 2012, 01:39:54
This feels so close now!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 26 May 2012, 02:29:37
Dox, I don't know anything about electronics, but I noticed the right hand side has a diode per switch, but the left side hasn't...  I'm curious - could you tell me why, please?

PS - looks really sweet!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sat, 26 May 2012, 03:10:33
One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:

But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sat, 26 May 2012, 04:02:46
Quote from: ripster;600465
I quibble with your use of the word quip.
QC'd.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Sat, 26 May 2012, 05:21:35
Don't know if it's possible to fit the two options in the PCB, but if yes, could you allow for the 2x thumb keys be mountable POS style as an alternative?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Nakkor on Sat, 26 May 2012, 08:04:40
Quote from: REVENGE;600456
One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:

But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.
I agree with both statements.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 26 May 2012, 10:56:44
Quote from: ic07;600409
Oh grr, it should. I'll do that then. Might not be able to get to it for a few days though. Sorry to be busy now that things are getting so exciting, lol. I'll make time as soon as I can!

So what we want (since the MCP23018 is open drain) is to have the columns hi-Z (off) / drive low (on), and the rows input with pull-up?
No problems, I'll wait for your revised firmware. Yes, we want the rows input with pull-up. Thanks again for doing this!

Quote from: hoggy;600443
Dox, I don't know anything about electronics, but I noticed the right hand side has a diode per switch, but the left side hasn't... I'm curious - could you tell me why, please?

PS - looks really sweet!
There are diodes on both side for every switches. The left side diodes are just hidden behind the switches in the picture.

Quote from: REVENGE;600456
One minor gripe: I would've preferred the Teensy to be on the left side. That way, I could run just the left half for gaming. :evil:

But nonetheless, that is just hot s***.
The good thing is that you can move the halves as you wish. Just place the right hand away and place the left hand beside your mouse.

Quote from: ped;600490
Don't know if it's possible to fit the two options in the PCB, but if yes, could you allow for the 2x thumb keys be mountable POS style as an alternative?
I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Sat, 26 May 2012, 11:28:36
Quote from: Dox;600619
I don't know why you would want to do this. 2 switches for 1 key = double the activation force. Not something that I would want. And the keys that fits that placement are standard keys with centered stems and standard stabilizers.


Because it would allow for choosing to divide the keys into two 1x keys if desired. Never mind though, just a thought.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 26 May 2012, 11:42:36
ic07, could you add me (doxkb) as a collaborator on the project on github, I will update the layout and matrix file.

Quote from: ped;600652
Because it would allow for choosing to divide the keys into two 1x keys if desired. Never mind though, just a thought.
Yeah, It could be possible, I'll see what I can do but the case/plate will only support the 2 unit keys.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Sat, 26 May 2012, 11:52:59
Quote from: Dox;600661
Yeah, It could be possible, I'll see what I can do but the case/plate will only support the 2 unit keys.

Awesome, thanks!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 26 May 2012, 23:42:57
This is the updated matrix.
Code: [Select]
# Documentation : Keyboard Matrix

## Matrix [row##column] assignments


* row and column numbers are in hex
* coordinates without brackets are unused
* left and right hands are mostly the same except that `row += 6` for the left


    .......           rows x columns = positions;  assigned,  unassigned .......
    ....... per hand:    6 x 7       = 42;         38,        4          .......
    .......    total:   12 x 7       = 84;         76,        8          .......
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [B6][B5][B4][B3][B2][B1][B0]                [50][51][52][53][54][55][56]
    [A6][A5][A4][A3][A2][A1][A0]                [40][41][42][43][44][45][46]
    [96][95][94][93][92][91] 90                  30 [31][32][33][34][35][36]
    [86][85][84][83][82][81][80]                [20][21][22][23][24][25][26]
    [76][75][74][73][72] 71  70                  10  11 [12][13][14][15][16]
                          [64]     66      06     [04]
                          [63]    [60]    [00]    [03]
                          [65][62][61]    [01][02][05]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Copyright &copy; 2012 Ben Blazak <benblazak.dev@gmail.com>  
Released under The MIT License (MIT) (see &quot;license.md&quot;)  
Project located at <https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware>
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sun, 27 May 2012, 00:08:10
◕ ‿ ◕
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jim66 on Sun, 27 May 2012, 18:32:26
Very excited about his.

Great work Dox + everyone else that's been involved so far!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 28 May 2012, 10:26:07
This really does feel like it's on the cusp! However we haven't seen anything on the case yet, so I would expect at least another month before final touches are made. Excellent, excellent work Dox!

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Mon, 28 May 2012, 11:06:10
Cardboard case :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: didjamatic on Mon, 28 May 2012, 11:39:49
Depending on final product I will take 1-3 of them.  Can't commit 100% until I know the final product and price.  Looks like a great keyboard.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: merijn on Mon, 28 May 2012, 12:09:27
If I can afford it as a student, I will buy one. It looks awesome, and I'd love to have one. Keep up the good work!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 28 May 2012, 12:19:33
Quote from: REVENGE;601092
◕ ‿ ◕
DAT FACE!

how much are the pcbs at medium quantity? i'd be interested in assembling a few pcbs for people over the next couple of months while case designs are finalized. imo i think it's a good idea to have some pcbs percolating and being beta tested for code development and as an opportunity to make changes to the pcb before a large quantity run

btw, raw or plated pcbs can be just placed on top of soft surfaces to be used/tested, or placed into prototyped cases of various materials ;)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Mon, 28 May 2012, 13:30:41
I am interested in one of these as well! Please with less Tab Keys though! :D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 28 May 2012, 13:48:15
Quote from: ripster;601828
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=428524&viewfull=1#post428524


I HATE being misquoted by a moderator!

Dork, please fix.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html?hilit=Dox

If you read through the first post, I lightheartedly misquoted (almost) everyone. Also, I wasn't a mod, when I "quoted" you. You have to be precise about this sort of thing.

It's not a big deal for me to remove you from the list completely, or change your statement of interest. Just PM me or post here.

Quote from: didjamatic;601971
Depending on final product I will take 1-3 of them.  Can't commit 100% until I know the final product and price.  Looks like a great keyboard.

Quote from: merijn;601995
If I can afford it as a student, I will buy one. It looks awesome, and I'd love to have one. Keep up the good work!

Quote from: mSSM;602036
I am interested in one of these as well! Please with less Tab Keys though! :D

I'll add you all to the list presently. When I saw the tab keys I thought: How many cherry keyboards does DOX have?

Edit: Keep in mind that a keyset is not planned (yet) so it's up to you DIYers to come up with keycaps. Nevertheless, I believe WASDkeyboards may be a good source if a GB ever occurs. I'd get a blank keyset for obvious reasons :p
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 28 May 2012, 18:12:03
Quote from: OrangeJewce;601903
This really does feel like it's on the cusp! However we haven't seen anything on the case yet, so I would expect at least another month before final touches are made. Excellent, excellent work Dox!

Cheers,
I'm working on the case right now. I will order a prototype from shapeways soon (1-2 week).

Quote from: mkawa;601999
DAT FACE!

how much are the pcbs at medium quantity? i'd be interested in assembling a few pcbs for people over the next couple of months while case designs are finalized. imo i think it's a good idea to have some pcbs percolating and being beta tested for code development and as an opportunity to make changes to the pcb before a large quantity run

btw, raw or plated pcbs can be just placed on top of soft surfaces to be used/tested, or placed into prototyped cases of various materials ;)

For 10 PCB it's about 45$ each (90 for both).

I placed some sticky insulation material in the corners to give a slope to the PCB.  I really like this placement so far for my"ghost" typing. Similar to the ms ergo 4000.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]51680[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51681[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51682[/ATTACH]


Quote from: dorkvader;602046
I'll add you all to the list presently. When I saw the tab keys I thought: How many cherry keyboards does DOX have?

Edit: Keep in mind that a keyset is not planned (yet) so it's up to you DIYers to come up with keycaps. Nevertheless, I believe WASDkeyboards may be a good source if a GB ever occurs. I'd get a blank keyset for obvious reasons :p
Haha I don't even have 1 functional cherry keyboard except my DoxKBs. The tab keys are from the SP grab bag. I'm trying to figure what are the best profile for the vertical 1.5 keys. I think the tab is working quite well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 28 May 2012, 18:33:01
I think that the thumb keys are a bit too far out. The 3 furthest keys are hard to reach and my thumb is a bit too stretched in the standard (thumb on space) position.
I will put them closer for the case prototype. I will cut the thumb from the PCB and hand wire it to test it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Tue, 29 May 2012, 02:53:30
Guess you never really know until you use it, love the work!  But needs more Dvorak ;)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 29 May 2012, 11:27:32
As an aside, I noticed the name on the PCBs was DoxErgo. I was kind of hoping it would be named the Dox64. I just love the sound of the latter, and since the design is based off of the Key64, I thought it was fitting. Regardless this looks great. I keep counting something like 38 keys a half, making a total of 76 keys. We might have to get a GB going just for a set of caps for this guy since it's so unique.

Cheers,

P.S. If we can get the board for something like $250, I'd double my order.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 29 May 2012, 15:55:29
Do you mean $250 for PCB/controller/case or $250 for the PCB or what?

Reason I ask is that some people are wanting to go "up to" a certain amount for a complete keyboard, and some are budgeting for other parts (because they have switches like me, or keycaps already, etc.)

I'll update the list when I get home.
---
As far as the Name: I though ErgoDOX was the accepted name for it (Sordna's work, if I recall correctly) That said. I think Dox76 would be good as well. I think it's really up to DOX, as he's really the project head here :p

Also: DOX: are we going for shapeways/plastic case n the final product, or just the prototype? I think we might be able to get just as good or a better price elsewhere for your metal plate case idea.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 May 2012, 19:24:21
ErgoDox, not ErgeDox.

BTW to keep the cost down for those that cannot afford the full monty, I would like to suggest that folks should be able to order this without case or plate. PCB mounted switches guarantee they will be solid, even without a plate, and as has been said, DIY cardboard case (or no case at all0 works for some folks.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 29 May 2012, 19:56:23
Dorkvader: YGPM
As for the name: My bad, it does say ErgoDox. I don't mean to start a competition, and I hadn't re-read all 40+ pages of the thread to see if anyone had come up with a name previously, for forgive me if I had stepped on anyone's toes. Again I leave total veto power up to Dox, I only meant to prompt discussion (even if moot). I think we should wait and see what the costs are actually going to be. If it's going to be $300 without switches or caps then I suppose I'd agree with sordna. If we can keep it near or under $300 all included it might be better to just sell kits. I suspect that caps won't be expensive since most likely they would need to be blank.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jblack801 on Wed, 30 May 2012, 12:44:14
man, seeing this project get moving... I think I'll have to revise my initial limit (not by much)

Dorkvader, can you put me at a definitely if at $250?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 01 June 2012, 03:44:31
Dox:
Sorry it's taken so long...  I think I got it though :) .  Let me know if there's anything I missed.  Here's the updated hex file (http://'https://github.com/downloads/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/ergodox-firmware--20120601_0116.hex') (most recent post on the github downloads page (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/downloads')), compiled from the current github 'master' branch.  If you end up compiling yourself, please keep in mind that I changed the makefile a LOT since I last merged the branches - and I tried to keep it WinAVR compatible, but I may have missed something there too.  Hope not though.

Thanks a lot for posting the matrix update BTW.  I had just finished trying to follow the traces on the PCB when I saw it, but I completely missed the changes to the thumb groups.  And making a macro out of what you posted ended up being a better solution than my first idea anyway.

Hope that's it...  It's late and I'm really tired.  Let me know how it works!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 01 June 2012, 09:05:15
Thanks a lot ic07!! I will try it when I get home tonight and I will report back!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 01 June 2012, 10:01:37
One thing I've been thinking about, and it seems to be uniform across all of the other KB GB's that I've seen (specifically I'm thinking of the phantom since that's the last one in a while.), is that they allow ordering of switches along with the kit, as well as assembly (if one desires), and that way consolidate all of the ordering. I only mention this because it seems like it will be a huge headache for those of us wanting assembly to have to order switches separately and then ship it all to the assembler.

Maybe I'm alone with that sentiment, and definitely putting cart before horse (since the prototyping isn't complete), but for whomever coordinates the inevitable GB it's food for thought.

Cheers,

P.S.
ic07 you're the man. I have my fingers crossed that everything works great and that in the next couple of months (after the case prototype arrives) we can finally put up an order thread!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 01 June 2012, 11:59:38
Hey sordna, any possibility for a big MX switch + diode group buy from Kinesis?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 01 June 2012, 13:09:33
As far as I know they don't sell diodes separately, they only have the MX switches that have built-in diodes, and only browns and reds.
Why don't you PM natas206 and invite him to this thread, as he works at Kinesis.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Fri, 01 June 2012, 13:47:26
Would be interesting to get a hold of some PCB mounted MX switch bottom housing with integrated diode. That's all I really want/need since I've got plenty of switches on the way already. If a group buy would make them cheaper than buying small amounts as an individual direct from Kinesis, awesomesauce! Maybe we can get these from one of those electrical component websites too...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 01 June 2012, 14:19:55
If we end up including LED based switches, we might want to look into organizing a GB for caps that will make use of them... unless WASD sells appropriate caps. How do the bigger switches look on the Kinesis with the LEDs on?

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 01 June 2012, 16:25:43
Quote from: ped;605759
Would be interesting to get a hold of some PCB mounted MX switch bottom housing with integrated diode. That's all I really want/need since I've got plenty of switches on the way already.

If that's the case, what you want to do is simply get the diodes (1N4148). Most Cherry MX switches have a common housing; even if you're getting them without integrated diodes, the bottom housing has the holes/marking for the diodes. You would need to open up the switches, bend the diode legs, insert the diode, close the switches.
Unlike half cherry MX switch housings, diodes are actually obtainable, and very easily so:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KRC7C
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 01 June 2012, 16:42:04
The left hand is working perfectly! The right hand have some problems.
"Space" = "space" + "page down"
 "enter" = "enter" + "space"
"page up" = "page up" + "enter"
"left" + "down" + "up" = "left" + "down" + "up" + "right"
and a few others.

I checked my PCB for shorts but I can't find one yet. I'll keep on searching.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 01 June 2012, 18:58:43
I have double checked everything and nothing is grounded. The ghost keys change state when I place my hand under the pcb.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 01 June 2012, 23:28:32
Hmm :/ .  I tested 'space', 'enter', and 'page up' just now on my breadboard setup, using a wire to short the row and column pins, and using both xev (a linux program for printing X events) and one of those pages for testing keyboard rollover (http://gadzikowski.com/nkeyrollover.html) to see which keys registered, and they all worked properly.  Dunno what would be pulling the effected row pins (F0 and F1) low like that...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 02 June 2012, 00:29:11
What kind is the chip on the left part? Those unconnected pins? What functions do they have. I've had all sorts of strange behavior with floating pins on ICs (the different result depending on which surface the setup has been sitting on in particular). At least on some sort of logics you really have to pull all pins either low or high for them to act right.

Edit: I saw now that it is the right hand that is the problem. So my idea might not be worth much...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 02 June 2012, 00:48:16
Quote from: alaricljs;599812
You have to jump through hoops to not get plated holes when you use kicad.

Actually, either they fixed this on one of the later versions, or I wrongly stated this earlier. There is a "NTPH,Mechanical"-setting for "pads" in my current version that does just this.

Here is a guide (http://www.wayneandlayne.com/blog/2010/12/03/how-to-build-kicad-on-ubuntu/) on how to build the latest KiCAD on Ubuntu, probably works on other Linux version as well.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 02 June 2012, 01:42:25
Quote from: PrinsValium;606055
I've had all sorts of strange behavior with floating pins on ICs

Mmm *nods*, I read about that while I was learning stuff for this project.  Unless I mixed something up, internal pull-up is set on all unused pins.  Except D6 on the teensy side, since that's pulled low (IIRC) through an LED.  And the interrupt pins are floating I think on the left side (and there are some NC pins on that side as well..).  I can't think of any other exceptions off the top of my head.

We're using an MCP23018, and the Teensy 2.0 which has an ATMega23u4.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 02 June 2012, 01:56:56
The Teensy I am familiar with =) and I never had any of those problems using it. I would guess the IO-pins are pulled either way regardless if they are set as outputs or inputs (with pull-up), but it sure shouldn't hurt to turn on the pull-ups. Actually I think most of my problems have been with leaving RESET- or CLOCK-pins floating when playing/learning logic ICs on a breadboard. When they start to flutter, very strange things tend to happen...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Sat, 02 June 2012, 05:03:12
This type of design on a keyboard is has always been what I wanted. Esp. when reclined Vertically. I wonder if we can add that, or just let the users do this. Also, would it not be easier to do the case in a type of hard acrylic (PMMA) by submersion into casts that are vertically assigned in some sort of silicon or rubber?

I'll draw the idea in a few days, but basically it is a mold of the cases vertically aligned in a rubber/silica/foam cube with slits of these molds. Kinda like how cd cases are made. If you get it then I won't draw.

Also, the think I like about the size if the fact that we can abuse the Keyboard space to install an MCC or SD port to make it even boot. hehehe, we can even bootstrap a gumstix board to boot Linux with video, sound, wifi, and everything (http://gumstix.org/software-development/pre-built-images.html). God, How I love this era.

For now, lets concentrate on making this truly programmable KB. I wonder if we should do it from the keyboard, or flash the memory from an the computer? Still using the USB as power to flash the memory.

Tell me your Ideas, I know C, I can help in logic, but I do not know the advance stuff like Hex algorithms on the processor. I'd hate to use some proprietary with little documentation. I think I read this was going to be teensy, am I right? And really, I think we should not care about the BIOS compatibility. Everyone by now should have bought flashed ROMs with Phoenix Award BIOS or better yet coreboot. If you are a buyer, and say Nay, please do so.

Also, what encoding wille we use, UTF-8 or one of the latins?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)
I ask to see what I can do for output. I guess I need to read USB in a nutshell.

Also I work full time, so my contributions will be limited. I can offer a wiki if you like. Need to experiment with yawk.

PS
   Behold this beauty:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lexus_LF-A_Crystallised_Wind.jpg
   And is functionality:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maylan-interior-design-neue-wiener-werkstaette-interlux-roehm-_evonik-_indeustries-contemporary-light-art-sedan-chair-seats-manfred-kielnhofer-illumination-auchtion.jpg
   SUSE Linux or The Attachmate Group was not part of this:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ted_Noten_Grandma's_Bag_Revisited_2009.jpg
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sat, 02 June 2012, 14:51:52
Quote from: bebuxe;606110
This type of design on a keyboard is has always been what I wanted. Esp. when reclined Vertically. I wonder if we can add that, or just let the users do this. Also, would it not be easier to do the case in a type of hard acrylic (PMMA) by submersion into casts that are vertically assigned in some sort of silicon or rubber?

I'll draw the idea in a few days, but basically it is a mold of the cases vertically aligned in a rubber/silica/foam cube with slits of these molds. Kinda like how cd cases are made. If you get it then I won't draw.

Also, the think I like about the size if the fact that we can abuse the Keyboard space to install an MCC or SD port to make it even boot. hehehe, we can even bootstrap a gumstix board to boot Linux with video, sound, wifi, and everything (http://gumstix.org/software-development/pre-built-images.html). God, How I love this era.

For now, lets concentrate on making this truly programmable KB. I wonder if we should do it from the keyboard, or flash the memory from an the computer? Still using the USB as power to flash the memory.

Tell me your Ideas, I know C, I can help in logic, but I do not know the advance stuff like Hex algorithms on the processor. I'd hate to use some proprietary with little documentation. I think I read this was going to be teensy, am I right? And really, I think we should not care about the BIOS compatibility. Everyone by now should have bought flashed ROMs with Phoenix Award BIOS or better yet coreboot. If you are a buyer, and say Nay, please do so.

Also, what encoding wille we use, UTF-8 or one of the latins?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Latin_character_sets_(computing)
I ask to see what I can do for output. I guess I need to read USB in a nutshell.

Also I work full time, so my contributions will be limited. I can offer a wiki if you like. Need to experiment with yawk.

PS
   Behold this beauty:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lexus_LF-A_Crystallised_Wind.jpg
   And is functionality:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maylan-interior-design-neue-wiener-werkstaette-interlux-roehm-_evonik-_indeustries-contemporary-light-art-sedan-chair-seats-manfred-kielnhofer-illumination-auchtion.jpg
   SUSE Linux or The Attachmate Group was not part of this:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ted_Noten_Grandma's_Bag_Revisited_2009.jpg
I think the sky and your wallet are the limits when it comes to case design and optional features.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sat, 02 June 2012, 16:07:23
I did some testing with the an adapted firmware from PrinsValium that I used for my doxkb at first and every key is registering correctly (no ghost keys).
You can download it here (http://www.lsdox.com/ergodox/ergodox_test.rar) if you want to take a look.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Sat, 02 June 2012, 16:21:20
>REVENGE
Well, it is a dream keyboard. One that I wanted to make, but nevertheless, do you not think it much cheaper to use PMMA for making the cases?
I got a -1 of vertical alignment.
How it be programmed, OS level, or Hardware/KB Level?
So it is the teensy, right? .
If so, what encoding do you all vote? UTF 8‽ (I ask, cause there is a lot of symbols not needed in utf8⁂ lots)※

※If you can't read these, it means you are not using UTF8, and probably do not need them.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: FedeQGMLY on Sat, 02 June 2012, 17:54:19
Hi guys, I'm new of GH, I found this thread looking for keyboards...and I think this project is awesome!
I wasn't able to read 43 of the 46 pages of this thread (sorry), so I'm bluntly asking: do you have an idea about when you'll be able to actually sell/ship this fantastic keyboard? And for which price approximately?

As someone previously pointed out, I also think keycaps are not mandatory...I mean, buying keycaps is not a problem as long as the keys are Cherry MX, am I wrong?

Thank you for your work.
Fede
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 02 June 2012, 19:11:40
Quote from: bebuxe;606333
If so, what encoding do you all vote? UTF 8‽ (I ask, cause there is a lot of symbols not needed in utf8⁂ lots)※

※If you can't read these, it means you are not using UTF8, and probably do not need them.

You keep asking about this encoding and I don't understand why.  Keyboards put out scancodes, they do not put out character set codes.  It is up to the OS to interpret the scancode and put the correct character on the screen (or alternately interpret it as the correct meta key).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 02 June 2012, 20:13:15
Quote from: FedeQGMLY;606362
Hi guys, I'm new of GH, I found this thread looking for keyboards...and I think this project is awesome!
I wasn't able to read 43 of the 46 pages of this thread (sorry), so I'm bluntly asking: do you have an idea about when you'll be able to actually sell/ship this fantastic keyboard? And for which price approximately?

As someone previously pointed out, I also think keycaps are not mandatory...I mean, buying keycaps is not a problem as long as the keys are Cherry MX, am I wrong?

Thank you for your work.
Fede
Hello and welcome to GH! I'll add you to the list. There's been a lot of pricing discussion, but nothing is set in stone yet. It all depends on what sort of volume pricing we can get. This is just a guess, but we should be able to get the PCB under $100, and the case maybe under $200. I haven't asked around for quotes yet, though.

As far as keyswitches and keycaps, some keyswitches are available at mouser.com, and there have been a number of group buys for them recently. Keycaps shouldn't be a huge issue, but you do have to realize that there are a large number of 1.5-width keys for the last row. You can see them as all the tabs and CTRL dox has in his picture, here:
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=51456&d=1338008738
That's twelve 1.5 keys total, if I am seeing it right.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hasu on Sat, 02 June 2012, 20:16:48
Dox and ic07, Great progress so far! and very inspired.

About ghost key problem I have some words to say.

If you use port F you might want to check JTAGEN fuse bit and JTD bit of MCUCR. This JTAG configuration can prevent from operation of port F. Default fuse bit setting of Teensy makes JTAGEN fuse unprogrammed, so you won't have this program, though, I think you still should check this to make sure. See datasheet for detail.
I'd like to recommend you try this code in init function:
Code: [Select]
   // JTAG disable for PORT F. write JTD bit twice within four cycles.
    MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
    MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);

And another one, you may want to add small delay between port setting and reading port while matrix scanning. I think you can have delay in _update_rows() in teensy-2-0.c. _delay_us(1 or 5) will be enough for this.
If you don't have this delay you might have a false reading of port.
Though I'm not sure theory behind this :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 02 June 2012, 20:30:08
Yes, my code contains those _delay_ms(1) after all changes to ports. I found erratic behavior without them. 1 us has been enough for me so far.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Sun, 03 June 2012, 05:20:10
>alaricljs
Yes, but most of the scancodes are standardized HEX Interruption values that the OS decide in your favorite encoding. Most of the scan codes conform with the ISO/IEC 9995 standard. That Is why ask if you like to have another to minimize/optimize in the software overhead that UTF8 is.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sun, 03 June 2012, 15:21:33
Quote from: bebuxe;606588
>alaricljs
Yes, but most of the scancodes are standardized HEX Interruption values that the OS decide in your favorite encoding. Most of the scan codes conform with the ISO/IEC 9995 standard. That Is why ask if you like to have another to minimize/optimize in the software overhead that UTF8 is.
Still unsure of what you're talking about. The scancode for each key is completely customizable at the hardware level by you, the end user.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 03 June 2012, 17:35:41
Quote from: hasu;606415
Dox and ic07, Great progress so far! and very inspired.

About ghost key problem I have some words to say.

If you use port F you might want to check JTAGEN fuse bit and JTD bit of MCUCR. This JTAG configuration can prevent from operation of port F. Default fuse bit setting of Teensy makes JTAGEN fuse unprogrammed, so you won't have this program, though, I think you still should check this to make sure. See datasheet for detail.
I'd like to recommend you try this code in init function:
Code: [Select]
   // JTAG disable for PORT F. write JTD bit twice within four cycles.
    MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);
    MCUCR |= (1<<JTD);

And another one, you may want to add small delay between port setting and reading port while matrix scanning. I think you can have delay in _update_rows() in teensy-2-0.c. _delay_us(1 or 5) will be enough for this.
If you don't have this delay you might have a false reading of port.
Though I'm not sure theory behind this :)

Thanks a lot hasu!!! I have added a _delay_us(1) in the _update_rows() and everything register correctly now!

Code: [Select]
static inline void _update_rows(        bool matrix[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS], uint8_t column ) {
    _delay_us(1);
    matrix[0][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_0);
    matrix[1][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_1);
    matrix[2][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_2);
    matrix[3][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_3);
    matrix[4][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_4);
    matrix[5][column] = ! teensypin_read(ROW_5);
}
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Sun, 03 June 2012, 18:37:00
ic07, do you have a fn layer ready? I would need it to at least have F keys.

edit: sent from the ergodox!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 03 June 2012, 19:41:09
IT lives! You should add it to your sig :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 03 June 2012, 21:26:34
Super exciting! Can't wait for pictures of the case prototype to be shown!

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 04 June 2012, 03:38:59
Thanks from me too hasu!  And PrinsValium.  And thanks DOX for trying it out and getting it working.  Changes now in the repo, and updated .hex on github (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/downloads') (and I deleted the bad one).  I put the `_delay_us(1)` at the end of the `teensypin_write()` macro.

  DOX:
  I also made a fn layer for you.  I feel like it's a mess (more than the current top layer), but it has the function keys, along with a few random symbols.  It's activated by holding down the lowermost of the 3 inside keys on either side of the board.  Here's a link to the layout file (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') (it's only on the 'dev' branch for now) for convenience.

  And I'm excited that it's usable and in use now too!

  bebuxe:
  A USB keyboard in boot mode sends scancodes from the HID usage page 0x07 (which I made into a header file (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard.h'), if you'd like to see it), if I'm remembering my terms correctly.  There's also a usage page corresponding to UTF-8, but I'm not sure if it can be used by keyboards.

  Also, remapping at this point is only possible by modifying the firmware, recompiling, and re-flashing.  Good news is, I don't think this will be too hard for anyone here, especially once I get around to writing a short howto.  On keyboard remapping is being considered (but only once everything else is done).  The rest is up to the OS.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 04 June 2012, 05:22:45
Quote from: ic07;607097
 Also, remapping at this point is only possible by modifying the firmware, recompiling, and re-flashing.  Good news is, I don't think this will be too hard for anyone here, especially once I get around to writing a short howto.  On keyboard remapping is being considered (but only once everything else is done).  The rest is up to the OS.

I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Mon, 04 June 2012, 05:26:08
Quote from: dorkvader;607116
I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)

x2 I'm trying to get my head around the firmware and setup etc.  Finding it very difficult.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 07:58:13
Quote from: dorkvader;607116
I wonder how easy it would be to write up a quick frontend for changing layouts? Even if it just gave you a quick graphic of what you have, then output the proper source to flash the chip with, it'd be useful (to visual people like me)

For the windows people, I have no problem drafting up a quick app that will allow adjustments of layouts. I will probably need some help interfacing it with the back end. If you want a Linux/Unix GUI you might have to find another volunteer.

I'll check out the firmware tonight, and see what I can do.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 08:04:09
Also,

DOX, do you have a larger version of your avatar? I plan on using it for the About menu on the GUI, as well as making a .ico to use for the launcher. (Assuming you guys don't mind me writing up a front-end.)

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Mon, 04 June 2012, 10:32:38
Hello All,

I've been tracking this thread for a few days now, and this looks very interesting. I'm interested in 1 to 2 PCBs depending on final price. what with the need for key-switches as well, I can't afford to go in for the cases too.

With regards to simple remapping, I've just pulled down the code and winAVR [my duel boot box spends most of it's life in windows, go figure... :  (   ] and it is possible to make gcc spit out a map-file, allowing us to locate the right symbol, and edit the hex file. Using this method it should be possible to distribute an "official" hex firmware and provide a utility that patches in changes to the keymap without requiring non-programmers to brave the world of C (and therefore from having to obtain and maintain tool-chains as well).
I don't do user-interface programming but I can help with sorting out hex-file hacking.

Notes[skip this section if you don't want the details.]: It will be necessary to make sure enough space is allocated for as many layers as is intended to be supported. It may also be necessary to clearly define which other symbols specify layer-shift keys.

To get the symbol map, add the following to LDFLAGS in the makefile: -Xlinker -Map=firmware.map
An example of the relevent section:
Code: [Select]
.progmem.data  0x000000ac      0x348 keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.o
                0x000002a4                _kb_layout_release
                0x00000154                _kb_layout_press
                0x000000ac                _kb_layout
From firmware.hex:
:1000A0002EC200002CC200002AC20000E4E64B2849
we want 00ac, this starts at 00a0, so the relevent chunk of this line is E4 E6 4B 28, the first four keys in the map:
KEY_RightControl; KEY_RightAlt; KEY_PageUp; KEY_ReturnEnter.
matrix.h specifies these as being { k00,k01,k02,k03, which ties up nicely with the right-hand thumb keys in the layer macro above and the matching qwerty keymap.
Note that when replacing this lign in the hex-file, the first part needs to be written back unchanged and the last two chars are a checksum that will need updating for any changes.

Still to determine: Does the teensy loader check any additional checksums? It isn't obvious from the map alone...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 12:17:28
effh,

    Can you give some details as to how you'd go from the modified hex file to re-flashing the firmware for the KB? It wouldn't be hard to have a separate "user" configuration hex file that could replace the default (with a restore option of course), what seems to be hard to do from the UI perspective is forcing the firmware to update. From a windows perspective, I wouldn't look forward to having to invoke a compile on the user's machines. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Mon, 04 June 2012, 12:40:28
OrangeJewce,

It appears that there is a command-line version of the teensy loader here: http://pjrc.com/teensy/loader_cli.html
The point of directly modifying the hex file is that you don't have to do a compile, you've just "hacked" the result of the compile (the hex file) to have the keymap you want in it.

I imagine that the utility would ship with the Teensy cli loader and a firmware version (.hex and .map or with the key details from the map hard-coded) which would then be used to either restore default or as the base to generate a custom firmware from.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 13:52:40
effh,

    It looks like you are right on all accounts. I'll make sure to package up the teensy CLI with the GUI. This will be on my TODO this evening after work. I am concerned there won't really be a way for me to test whether or not the process works without a controller handy but oh well. I'll have to rely on the Dox et al. to do the testing.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 04 June 2012, 14:21:32
OrangeJewce, effh, you guys are awesome.

  Modifying the hex is a good idea.  The only complication I can see is that layer switching is done by putting a different function for that key's location in the `_kb_layout_press` and `_kb_layout_release` matricies (see qwerty.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') in 'dev' for an example).

  Allocating enough space for all the layers you want should only mean changing the value of `KB_LAYERS` in qwerty.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.h') before compile.  Unused layers won't confuse anything.


  For anyone trying to understand the layout, take a look at:

  - qwerty.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.h') for the macro defining the number of layers, and the mapping from physical LED position to the meaning of the LEDs
  - qwerty.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty.c') for the keycodes, key press functions, and key release functions assigned to each physical key position
  - and usb/usage-page/keyboard--short-names.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard--short-names.h') for all availble keycodes (or usb/usage-page/keyboard.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/usb/usage-page/keyboard.h') for the actual hex codes)

  Those three files should contain everything you need.  If you want more information, you can look at:

  - matrix.h (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/keyboard/ergodox/matrix.h') for a more thorough description of the `LAYER()` macro used in 'qwerty.c', and what it's doing
  - and if you really want to get into it, key-functions.c (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/dev/src/lib/key-functions.c') is where the functions called for each key(press|release) are defined; you might have to poke through the PJRC USB code (in src/lib-other/...) to understand parts though
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 15:01:26
ic07,

     My thinking is that when you switch layers, the keyboard is using a different section of the compiled .hex to do the mapping. Therfore I would expect that we should still be able to directly hack our way through the compiled .hex to alter the key-mappings for each layer.

Going the GUI route would mean we might have to make some sacrifices if we choose not to recompile the firmware. My plan is to only offer the number of layers officially coded into the firmware source, so that would be 2 right now. However, if a user really wants more layers, then they can always edit the default.hex by replacing it with one of their own or by compiling the source.

effh,

     I am concerned about the checksum issue. Are you sure that the teensy will refuse to accept updates if a modification is made to the .hex without generating new checksums? If that's the case we probably won't have any choice but to force a compile of the firmware source.

Cheers,

OJ
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 04 June 2012, 17:41:36
OrangeJewce and effh, good ideas for the remapping, keep it up!

Quote from: OrangeJewce;607145
Also,

DOX, do you have a larger version of your avatar? I plan on using it for the About menu on the GUI, as well as making a .ico to use for the launcher. (Assuming you guys don't mind me writing up a front-end.)

Cheers,
Post 17 here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17374-My-keyboard-project). Thanks to calavera.


ic07, I think there is a bug with the fn layer. I used the prototype all day at work and sometimes, the fn layer becomes inaccessible after some use.
Otherwise, everything went well. With the thumb keys a bit closer, it will be perfect! I already prefer it to the kinesis. With the flat shape, it gives me more freedom when I need it and the ability to place each hand in the optimal position is really great.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Mon, 04 June 2012, 18:59:33
OrangeJewce,

No, I'm not that concerned about there being an aditional checksum, that would be an extra-work feature that would have required cooperation between teensy and winAVR or an extra added by ic07 (which hasn't been mentioned, so hasn't happened.) so it is a low probability.
With regards to switching sections of the compiled hex, all layers have been implemented as part of the same array and are contiguous.

The map I have here was built off of the dev tree and states that _kb_layout starts at 0x00ac, the next symbol being at 0x0154. that is 168 bytes.
The layer macro defines 84 bytes of data per layer, 168/84 is 2.  Coincidentally, thats the number of layers currently in the dev-branch, so we've found all the keymap definitions. (though I've not fully explained to my satisfaction _kb_layout_press and _kb_layout_release. erg. Now I have. _kb_layout is of type uint8_t, the other two is of type kbfun_funptr_t (pointer to function). effective but fun to handle. Examination shows repetition at 16-bit intervals. But not of a sequence that ties up to the map's definition of the functions I was expecting. I'll do some more digging later when it isn't approching 0100.
Update: The value stored in the press and release tables is the "word address" of the function in flash, while the map has the "byte address". the byte address from the map divided by 2 gives the value in the table. Note that the avr is a little endian device, so an address of 0x0b7e divided by two is 0x05bf and would appear in the .hex as bf05.

Summary:
#1: Don't worry about checksums, we'll cross that bridge if we meet it.
#2: We also know now where all the keymapping is, even if we don't know the right values for the press and release functions yet.
#3: Values of positions will change on each compile, so if we can work out how to extract the values programatically from the map, that would be best.

ic07,

The definition of the Layer macro is the fundamental mapping of what keys are where in the array, so that is going to be critical :  )
So far, so good.

Sorry about any typos, dyslexia and late nights don't mix.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 19:39:59
effh,

     Thanks for the clarification. I am working on the prototype GUI right now. I have all 76 buttons created, but have yet to implement the back end. Obviously that will take the longest to do, as I still don't really have a grasp as to how the firmware is going to work. For anyone interested I have forked off the git and made a UI branch. It is a WinForms project (It's just too easy for this kind of thing. Might upgrade to WPF later) in C#. I make a pull request later this evening. No ETA as of yet on how long this UI project will take, I presume there is at least a little time before we have a fully assembled prototype in Dox's Hands.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Mon, 04 June 2012, 20:32:07
OrangeJewce,

If we can agree a simple (that means not xml) file interchange format, I can probably do a cut of code (c++ as for cross-platform usage and reduced writing time) that would modify the map in a hex-file/map pair.
I'm thinking something like:
Code: [Select]
:_kb_layout{lf}
ababababababababababababababab{lf}
:_kb_layout_press{lf}
111111121111113111111411111{lf}
:_kb_layout_release{lf}
111111121111113111111411111{lf}
where ab is a byte represented in ascii, 1 2 3 and 4 are press, release, layer increment and layer decrement and {lf} is a linefeed character (0x0a in the table)
I can also set up options to allow getting the number of layers in the map from the map. (based on size of allocation.)

Thoughts?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 04 June 2012, 20:45:41
effh,

     That sounds great!

Cheers,

OJ
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 05 June 2012, 15:16:16
Quote from: Dox;607456
ic07, I think there is a bug with the fn layer. I used the prototype all day at work and sometimes, the fn layer becomes inaccessible after some use.

I looked at the logic again last night, and it still looks right to me...  Do you have any ideas?  Or at least, in laborious detail, what exactly's happening (maybe this calls for a PM) lol :) .  Sorry you have to help debugging stuff I wrote, but I can't think of a way to test it myself... :/ .  If *any* keys are registering, those should be working too...  I suppose, worst case, I can try to start rewriting the thing next week.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 05 June 2012, 15:39:39
Quote from: ic07;608033
I looked at the logic again last night, and it still looks right to me...  Do you have any ideas?  Or at least, in laborious detail, what exactly's happening (maybe this calls for a PM) lol :) .  Sorry you have to help debugging stuff I wrote, but I can't think of a way to test it myself... :/ .  If *any* keys are registering, those should be working too...  I suppose, worst case, I can try to start rewriting the thing next week.

ic07,

     It would be helpful if we can keep changes to the backend to a minimum (outside of bug fixes like this), since effh & I will be relying on consistency there to create a usable GUI. Though we'll be hacking the compiled hex directly, it would be nice to be able to know that recompilation we do will give us consistent results. I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 05 June 2012, 15:47:12
ic07,

     follow up: main.c is missing an include in the repo: . Can you add that?

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Tue, 05 June 2012, 17:48:30
>ic07
Thanks, that is exactly what I was talking about. Will make more /layout/ later, after I clean my apartment. I guess remapping will be the way to go here then at the OS level then.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 05 June 2012, 18:21:12
Yep, the possibility of HW remapping is one of the best features for me.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Wed, 06 June 2012, 01:28:09
Quote from: OrangeJewce;608049
ic07,

     It would be helpful if we can keep changes to the backend to a minimum (outside of bug fixes like this), since effh & I will be relying on consistency there to create a usable GUI. Though we'll be hacking the compiled hex directly, it would be nice to be able to know that recompilation we do will give us consistent results. I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?

Cheers,


I'm going to have to counter that. For starters, I suspect a couple of changes will be necessary to support 3+ layers.

ic07, Make any changes you need/want to make, just keep the layout in a nice sensible array/set of arrays in "progmem". (I need to look up the details of that sometime :  )

At some point, it would make OrangeJewce's life easier if one of us could detail the order of keys in the array when expressed as flat memory, as that is the order I'll be needing the data in to in-fill the hex file.

To reiterate: so-long as _kb_layout, _kb_layout_press and _kb_layout_release don't change their definitions (and the functions used in _kb_layout_ don't change name and number), and that a map file has been built along with the hex file, what I have in mind should continue to work. Changes to those will require some degree of rework and thus notification of changes to them would be appreciated.
Generic Solutions for the win :  )
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 06 June 2012, 14:06:07
Quote from: OrangeJewce;608049
I am having a hard time following what's going on in main.c, in the innermost for loop. Where do you specify a switching between layers?


  The innermost loop in main.c is *only* responsible for calling the appropriate function (assigned to each key in the layout matrices, and defined in lib/key-functions.c), and then calling usb_keyboard_send() if necessary.  Everything else is done by the key function - so layer switching (changing the value of the current_layer variable at the top of the outer main() loop) is actually done in lib/key-functions.c::kbfun_layer_inc() and lib/key-functions.c::kbfun_layer_dec().

 
Quote from: OrangeJewce;608058
follow up: main.c is missing an include in the repo: . Can you add that?


  is part of avr-libc.  And the #include is in main.c in every branch I checked (though, I did forget it a few commits ago, when I committed -> pushed without trying to compile first - which wasn't very smart of me, lol).

 
Quote from: effh;608373
ic07, Make any changes you need/want to make, just keep the layout in a nice sensible array/set of arrays in "progmem". (I need to look up the details of that sometime :  )


  :) .  I don't anticipate changing how the _kb_layout* matrices are defined unless I really really (really) have to.  And the kbfun_*() functions used in _kb_layout_ shouldn't be changing much either (though, I'm not sure what you mean by "name and number"; but their names shouldn't change, and I won't remove any).  I'll do my best to let you guys know if I start messing with stuff that I think might affect you.

As a side note, having the layout matrices in PROGMEM is not guaranteed by the current design (it's the default, but it can be changed per layout).  I'm not planning to put any anywhere else though, since RAM only has enough space for ~2 layers IIRC, the EEPROM is even smaller, and the extra time/code it takes to have stuff in PROGMEM appears to be inconsequential.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 06 June 2012, 17:38:01
I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:

I'm interested in
function layer (s)
Mouse buttons
Hitting both shifts activates capslock

Y'know, things like that. Are there any resources you can share?

I might come up with some proposed keymaps for people.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 06 June 2012, 18:22:53
Quote from: dorkvader;608803
I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:

I'm interested in
function layer (s)
Mouse buttons
Hitting both shifts activates capslock

Y'know, things like that. Are there any resources you can share?

I might come up with some proposed keymaps for people.

Dorkvader,

     The ultimate goal will be that when people get the keyboard, they will have access to our open source UI and firmware, which will allow them to use either the default QWerty / ic07 layout or any other layout of their choice (the software will automatically do any compiling and hardware flashing necessary). The UI will be Windows only, XP and above. If you're running linux, you'll have to manually edit the firmware, compile it, and flash the teensy 2.0 controller manually.

Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve. As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer. If you'd like to know what the default currently is, I point you to the source, or to sit tight until I can make a prototype UI available which will allow the designing of any custom layout of your choice. Let me know if you have any questions as I would be glad to help!

Cheers,

OJ
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Salisen on Thu, 07 June 2012, 18:16:23
I'm definitely interested in getting one of these, ideally with a price lower than about $300.

I know I'm very new around here, but I potentially could provide a soldering service for 2-3 Europe based people (sending to the UK and back from outside of Europe would cost a fortune in custom's fees).  I'll be extremely busy around April to early June of 2013 due to the last exams of my degree, but I will otherwise have sufficient time.

I noticed someone mentioned in the Phantom thread about needing PCB designers.  On that note, electronics is a major hobby of mine: I have some experience with PCB design.  For this reason I'd be interested in helping design the PCB, but preferably working with someone who can check things I'm working on occasionally, I'm not confident about avoiding mistakes (I'm a physics undergrad, not an electronics engineer!).  I do have a bench supply, breadboard, etc though, so I can test layouts I design.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 07 June 2012, 23:14:20
Quote from: dorkvader;608803
I'm interested in learning how to do some keymap-making or key layout changing. Is there some sort of documentation on how to do this:


Not yet, unless you're comfortable with C and have time for a bit of reading.  I can post links to the relevant files again if you like.  But since OrangeJewce and effh are going to make a GUI, I'd recommend waiting for that.  I'm sure it'll be more fun to use, in any case :) .

- Function layers are being debugged.  Once done, I'm sure the GUI will make them easy to work with.
- Mouse buttons are in progress, but depend on my eventual comprehension of certain things about USB...  I'm trying!
- Hitting both shifts to activate capslock is a good idea.  I'll see what I can do after layers work right.  It /shouldn't/ be too hard.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;608836
Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve.


It will basically be pretending to be two devices, if I succeed in implementing it.  It's not an uncommon thing though - IIRC, several custom firmwares around geekhack have this feature (hasu's included) - I just need to figure out how to do it myself.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;608836
As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer.


Would more be useful?  I did the math just now, and I think there's room in flash for ~60 layers... lol.  And having extra allocated won't hurt.  How many do you think would be good?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 07 June 2012, 23:33:17
An option you might want to look into is having layer lock key combos.  This way you could hit Fn-1 (or something similar) and it would switch to the 'qwerty' layer as the default until another layer lock is used.  This way a user could have several alternate layouts like dvorak and colemak at a simple key combo press.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 07 June 2012, 23:47:55
Quote from: ic07;609575
Not yet, unless you're comfortable with C and have time for a bit of reading.  I can post links to the relevant files again if you like.  But since OrangeJewce and effh are going to make a GUI, I'd recommend waiting for that.  I'm sure it'll be more fun to use, in any case :) .

- Function layers are being debugged.  Once done, I'm sure the GUI will make them easy to work with.
- Mouse buttons are in progress, but depend on my eventual comprehension of certain things about USB...  I'm trying!
- Hitting both shifts to activate capslock is a good idea.  I'll see what I can do after layers work right.  It /shouldn't/ be too hard.


I would strongly suggest just waiting it out unless someone else wants to get adventurous with compiling firmware. I haven't heard from effh in a while regarding the UI backend, so I might begin implementing part of it myself over the weekend. We'll just have to see how much time I have, or if he gets back to me. :thumb:

Quote from: ic07;609575

It will basically be pretending to be two devices, if I succeed in implementing it.  It's not an uncommon thing though - IIRC, several custom firmwares around geekhack have this feature (hasu's included) - I just need to figure out how to do it myself.


Alright so it would behave exactly as I thought. I didn't really think it was impossible, only that it couldn't be done with the controller registering itself as a single piece of hardware. There has been reports of by doing multiple registration, one loses correct functionality on a mac. This might need investigating if you manage to get mouse buttons implemented. I'm not sure how high up the ticket totem pole it is anyways.

Quote from: ic07;609575

Would more be useful?  I did the math just now, and I think there's room in flash for ~60 layers... lol.  And having extra allocated won't hurt.  How many do you think would be good?

I think people would like at least 3, up to (I could imagine) 6,

Qwerty+F'n
Dvorak+F'n/custom
Colemak+F'n/custom

I guess people might want more than that, but really it'd be a stretch for phase 1. The great thing is that I plan on having an export feature (might not be on release but I'm going to try), which will allow the community to share their layouts, and it will be modular because the UI will be able to flash the controller with just the .hex file.

Either way I'm still very excited about this project and look forward to delivering something at least usable by the community for creating, sharing, and distributing any layout they can possibly think of.

Cheers,

OJ
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 07 June 2012, 23:55:00
also ic07 YGPM

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 08 June 2012, 00:40:27
I'd say we should have support for 4 layers, to accommodate practitioners of NEO.
I'd have:
Dvorak
QWERTY
Function
Special
as my layers (special would be a testing layout, if I want to update Dvorak some, or overflow from function) I will want to have some combination of QWERTY and dvorak, so if the computer is expecting dvorak or qwerty, I can use a layer to match.

Salisen, you're added to the list, but I haven't updated the OP yet.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 08 June 2012, 01:19:21
One thing about layers that I am afraid many might be missing is that the harware "layers" is not the full story. The keyboard still only sends a combination of keys. There are no actual functions associated wit what the keys do in the OS. That is all up to the OS to decide. If i want for example my '1'-key to be the '&'-key on another layer that will not be the same as defining say 'SHIFT'+'1' as '&', it will not be the shift layer. That layer would be a shifted layer where the '7'-key on a layer with 'SHIFT' activated. Since it is the OS that usually handles layers it is a bit backwards to do it in the firmware. There are of course workarounds.

On the Kinesis you can remap any key to do whatever any other key does. For example the switch the location of '1' and '&', and also program macro keys. The way I understand that they handle this is by defining every keypress as a keycode along with the modifier keys used for that particular key. That is every key is defined as a tuple of keycodes that are used simultaneously. If the '1'-key is set to be a '&'-key, the keyboard woll briefly send 'SHIFT'+'7' when the '1'-key is pressed. This works, but is a lot more tedious than I think everyone here is aware of =)

This is not the full story either... say I want a layer on my keyboard where the 'A'-key is an 'α'-key (alpha), Alpha is not even in the OS keymapping, no combination of keypresses will be able to produce it.

All this may be possible to solve installing other drivers or something, but that I know nothing about, and also that wouldn't be very pretty at all...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 08 June 2012, 01:32:55
Actually, the kinesis remaps entire keys. You can map 7 to 1 or 1 to 7 (dragging along the ! and & when shifted) but you cannot map 1 to & or 7 to ! or 1 to ! for that matter.
Macros can contain any letters, modifiers, and symbols, but key remapping is for entire keys.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 08 June 2012, 01:46:53
Ok, I didn't really know. I only remember seeing the Kinesis at work sending modified keys in a keyboard testing program where the keys light up, and the shift key was coming on and off a lot =)

My own belief is that layers are best handled with custom character mappings on the OS side. This gives rise to the same portability issues as (potentially) having custom drivers.

My Linux workaround when I get around to implement it would be to have a complete keyboard mapping typed out into a terminal by some keypress combo. Could just be a heap of "xmodmap"-commandos or an actual xkb-file with all the bells and whistles. Keyboard mapping is a complete mess in Linux in my opinion.. Other OSs I don't really know about.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 08 June 2012, 08:48:25
Quote from: PrinsValium;609612
One thing about layers that I am afraid many might be missing is that the harware "layers" is not the full story. The keyboard still only sends a combination of keys. There are no actual functions associated wit what the keys do in the OS. That is all up to the OS to decide. If i want for example my '1'-key to be the '&'-key on another layer that will not be the same as defining say 'SHIFT'+'1' as '&', it will not be the shift layer. That layer would be a shifted layer where the '7'-key on a layer with 'SHIFT' activated. Since it is the OS that usually handles layers it is a bit backwards to do it in the firmware. There are of course workarounds.

We choose to alter the microcontroller because it's easier to do, and it works. Otherwise we'd need to craft OS specific drivers (not likely to happen).

Quote from: PrinsValium;609612
On the Kinesis you can remap any key to do whatever any other key does. For example the switch the location of '1' and '&', and also program macro keys. The way I understand that they handle this is by defining every keypress as a keycode along with the modifier keys used for that particular key. That is every key is defined as a tuple of keycodes that are used simultaneously. If the '1'-key is set to be a '&'-key, the keyboard woll briefly send 'SHIFT'+'7' when the '1'-key is pressed. This works, but is a lot more tedious than I think everyone here is aware of =)

This is not the full story either... say I want a layer on my keyboard where the 'A'-key is an 'α'-key (alpha), Alpha is not even in the OS keymapping, no combination of keypresses will be able to produce it.

All this may be possible to solve installing other drivers or something, but that I know nothing about, and also that wouldn't be very pretty at all...

My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS. Afaik, has no handle in how the keymap is stored, altered, or saved with regards to the onboard memory of the Kinesis' microcontroller. My guess is its memory is addressable and maybe they use some form of pointer system (pure speculation), and so you can shift around the addressing of the keys directly. Unfortunately for us to implement a feature similar to this would most likely consume much of the available memory on our controller and severely limit the number of layers, with limited additional benefit over a UI.

 Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Salisen on Fri, 08 June 2012, 12:04:58
How are you looking to switch between layers?

From the keyboard's point of view, I mean.  My QPAD changes the backlighting brightness by holding fn and pressing one of two other keys.  Could also use some sort of 3-4 way DIP switch on the PCB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 08 June 2012, 13:25:16
Quote from: OrangeJewce;609718
We choose to alter the microcontroller because it's easier to do, and it works. Otherwise we'd need to craft OS specific drivers (not likely to happen).

My point still stands. There are more and less unsolvable layout issues working with the keyboard side alone.


Quote from: OrangeJewce;609718
My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS. Afaik, has no handle in how the keymap is stored, altered, or saved with regards to the onboard memory of the Kinesis' microcontroller. My guess is its memory is addressable and maybe they use some form of pointer system (pure speculation), and so you can shift around the addressing of the keys directly. Unfortunately for us to implement a feature similar to this would most likely consume much of the available memory on our controller and severely limit the number of layers, with limited additional benefit over a UI.

 Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.


There is 1kB of EEPROM memory where the firmware can save settings from time to time. That is a lot of layouts.. Keycodes are only 1 byte, pointer probably the same. As Sordna said the Kinesis only supports swapping keys, not really remapping individual "characters". A key swapping function should be fairly straight forward to implement...

No need to have the firmware "finished" before the physical product is finalized. The prototype is a perfectly well functioning keyboard (ok there may possibly be some bugs). The Teensy is infinitely re-programmable, and this is easily done as well. You will have forever to improve upon the firmware.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 08 June 2012, 14:07:33
Quote from: PrinsValium;609822
My point still stands. There are more and less unsolvable layout issues working with the keyboard side alone.

I guess I don't understand then exactly what your point is, so I apologize. The design decision was made to work from the keyboard end to ensure compatibility with any OS, because that would mean doing a single implementation as opposed to many. There are always going to be pros and cons to any design decision.

There really isn't such a thing as "Finished" in programming, as one can always improve it. However, the firmware should be stable and have some basic features that are cornerstones of why we are undergoing this project. Remapping is one of those features. However, we shouldn't get into an argument about coding methodology here, I don't feel this is the right place.

If you would like to draft up drivers for Windows or any of the other OSes we'd be more than happy to see what it is you come up with. The more the merrier :thumb:.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: effh on Fri, 08 June 2012, 15:50:03
For those wishing to play with the windows side of keyboard-layouts, I found this utility belonging to microsoft.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

I've not done more than download it yet, but I'm looking to cure my caps-lock problem.....
:  )

Update: Okay, so that is the next best thing to useless - for some reason, some specific keys can not be changed... like caps-lock. I note that this utility does allow you to specify alternate shift mappings, so combined with changing the actual keyboard firmware may form part of a complete solution.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Fri, 08 June 2012, 18:47:13
What do you guys think - can this be a good replacement for a Kinesis?

And is there an ETA for the "final" prototype (including the case)?


I am deliberating getting either the Ergo Dox or the Kinesis; I can't afford both. :(
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 09 June 2012, 01:04:28
Quote from: mSSM;610027
What do you guys think - can this be a good replacement for a Kinesis?

And is there an ETA for the "final" prototype (including the case)?


I am deliberating getting either the Ergo Dox or the Kinesis; I can't afford both. :(
I've not tried a TE, but I see this as a better version of that.

Also keep in mind that whatever you get, you can probably resell it for most of the value in the classifieds once you're done.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 09 June 2012, 02:18:50
The resale value of the ergodox is likely to be close to the final price.

If you buy the Kinesis first,  you will probably miss out on the ergodox. If you buy the ergodox,  you'll have the option of the Kinesis later.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Sat, 09 June 2012, 08:29:10
Quote from: hoggy;610193
The resale value of the ergodox is likely to be close to the final price.

If you buy the Kinesis first,  you will probably miss out on the ergodox. If you buy the ergodox,  you'll have the option of the Kinesis later.

Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sat, 09 June 2012, 10:36:07
Quote from: mSSM;610275
Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(

The ErgoDox will be a really unique, and most likely will be a rare piece of hardware. For that reason alone you can expect it to retain value well.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 09 June 2012, 11:06:50
Quote from: OrangeJewce;609869
I guess I don't understand then exactly what your point is, so I apologize. The design decision was made to work from the keyboard end to ensure compatibility with any OS, because that would mean doing a single implementation as opposed to many. There are always going to be pros and cons to any design decision.


I've explained as well as I think I am able to. I'm only trying to warn you to not try to solve an unsolvable problem. The limitations that come with working from the keyboard side alone may or may not apply to your needs. I'm just saying that everything cannot be done that way.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;609869

If you would like to draft up drivers for Windows or any of the other OSes we'd be more than happy to see what it is you come up with. The more the merrier :thumb:.
Cheers,


If I had any idea how to do it, I probably wouldn't be that crazy.




My point is that keymappings on the OS side solves all but the portability issues. It would have been easier if keyboards were designed to send unicode characters or something similar, and the OS would handle only the conversion if another map than the physical one on the keyboard was required. There are of course good reasons to why it is the way it is as well.

I know how to do keyboard mappings in Ubuntu (sort of). It is insanely messy for such a simple thing but it works and it solves most problems much more nicely.

Edit: Ok, most problems might be an exaggeration, but there are a lot more options altering the OS key mapping. And I also wanted to add that there already is layer support in the firmware if I understand correctly. It might just not be completely bug free.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Sat, 09 June 2012, 14:15:00
I thought on the windows side people were pretty happy with what Autohotkey can do?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Sat, 09 June 2012, 15:26:23
Quote from: Icarium;610387
I thought on the windows side people were pretty happy with what Autohotkey can do?
It's not ideal: not easily portable, does not work with certain programs.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Salisen on Sat, 09 June 2012, 17:48:31
Quote from: REVENGE;610414
It's not ideal: not easily portable, does not work with certain programs.

I think it can be flagged up by anti-cheating software in games as well.  Not really worth the risk.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 10 June 2012, 02:29:54
Quote from: mSSM;610275
Good point; my impression was that the resale price of the Kinesis is reaaaally bad. Neither here nor on deskthority are people particulary interested in those. And eBay is even worse. Last Kinesis went for 25% of its original price. :(

There you go then. Get the Kinesis board from here or ebay and then get the ergodox in this group buy.

The Kinesis is a great board,  if you think you need one,  get one!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 10 June 2012, 21:40:08
Quote from: alaricljs;609580
An option you might want to look into is having layer lock key combos.  This way you could hit Fn-1 (or something similar) and it would switch to the 'qwerty' layer as the default until another layer lock is used.  This way a user could have several alternate layouts like dvorak and colemak at a simple key combo press.


Layer lock key combos are a good idea, and would be easy to put on a key in a function layer.  I'll plan to add that capability in a bit.  Thanks!


Quote from: OrangeJewce;609584
I think people would like at least 3, up to (I could imagine) 6

Quote from: dorkvader;609602
I'd say we should have support for 4 layers, to accommodate practitioners of NEO.


Mmkay.  Thanks :) .  I think I'll allocate 10 then, by default, just to have a nice round number.  Having extra shall not hurt.


Quote from: OrangeJewce;609718
My understanding is the Kinesis allows on the fly hardware mapping outside of the OS.
...
Also it may or may not take more development time than we currently have, but I defer to ic07 on this issue, since he's doing all the low level work.

Quote from: PrinsValium;609822
There is 1kB of EEPROM memory where the firmware can save settings from time to time. That is a lot of layouts.. Keycodes are only 1 byte, pointer probably the same. As Sordna said the Kinesis only supports swapping keys, not really remapping individual "characters". A key swapping function should be fairly straight forward to implement...


It would be possible to implement Kinesis like remapping, but it involves tradeoffs that, the more I think about them, the less I want to make them.  A complete layer (keycode + two function pointers for a 12x7 matrix, function pointers being 16 bit) is 420 bytes, which means the EEPROM could actually only hold two.  We could limit special functions from maps with that capability, and store only the keycodes in the EEPROM, or I could devise a method for only storing changed layout info there; or we could limit the number of layers to two.  But I don't really like the idea of doing any of that for such an (IMO) limited gain in functionality.  I'm open to reconsider though, if I find that there's really enough interest.


Quote from: Salisen;609782
How are you looking to switch between layers?

From the keyboard's point of view, I mean.  My QPAD changes the backlighting brightness by holding fn and pressing one of two other keys.  Could also use some sort of 3-4 way DIP switch on the PCB.


We're switching layers using keypresses (fn/layer keys).  Layer lock key combos are planned (thanks to alaricljs for the suggestion).  If anyone wants to change the keyboard's default/startup layer though, they'll have to reflash the controller (but that should be easy enough, especially on Windows once OrangeJewce and effh are done with their UI).


Quote from: PrinsValium;610342
My point is that keymappings on the OS side solves all but the portability issues.


It doesn't though.  Remapping any of the 'lock' keys, for instance, is hard to do OS side.  But I understand what you're saying about limitations.  Personally, I'm going to use both methods (OS remapping for Greek characters and OS functions, firmware for everything else).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 11 June 2012, 02:44:12
Quote from: ic07;610998
It would be possible to implement Kinesis like remapping, but it involves tradeoffs that, the more I think about them, the less I want to make them.  A complete layer (keycode + two function pointers for a 12x7 matrix, function pointers being 16 bit) is 420 bytes, which means the EEPROM could actually only hold two.  We could limit special functions from maps with that capability, and store only the keycodes in the EEPROM, or I could devise a method for only storing changed layout info there; or we could limit the number of layers to two.  But I don't really like the idea of doing any of that for such an (IMO) limited gain in functionality.  I'm open to reconsider though, if I find that there's really enough interest.

Store a backup of the "standard" 12x7 layout array, after that there should be room for perhaps 11 more copies of this that can be modified any way required. The base array could be stored in flash memory as well. That would give room for another one as well as protect it from corruption =) I don't know if on the fly remappings like on the Kinesis is very useful when you can program the keyboard anyway you like anyhow. Storing macros in the EEPROM sounds more interesting to me. I envision those as linked lists of (key, modifiers, next pointer)-triplets. Each list item would take 4 bytes if pointers are 2 bytes.

Quote from: ic07;610998
It doesn't though.  Remapping any of the 'lock' keys, for instance, is hard to do OS side.  But I understand what you're saying about limitations.  Personally, I'm going to use both methods (OS remapping for Greek characters and OS functions, firmware for everything else).

Of course you are correct. Things the OS doesn't need to know about is best kept in the dark =) I should have said that "character mapping" problems are best solved on the OS side. Once again macros might be the solution I'm actually looking for. Do I want to type 'λ' or really just "\lambda"? =D



There is also a micro SD-card adapter (http://pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) for the Teensys. Imagine GBs of data... I had plans to use one as a keylogger on my own keyboard. I haven't been experimenting any with it, but there are adapters in my home built boards.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 11 June 2012, 06:12:55
Quote from: PrinsValium;611101
Storing macros in the EEPROM sounds more interesting to me. I envision those as linked lists of (key, modifiers, next pointer)-triplets. Each list item would take 4 bytes if pointers are 2 bytes.


Hmm, I hadn't been thinking about macros; and I would think those were easier to do in the OS (or.. I use gvim, so that's where mine are).  Still interesting though, maybe I'll think about them again sometime when I'm not so tired :) .  Would you prefer them in firmware?  If so, why?


[/HR]

DOX:
Updated firmware in 'dev'!  And new .hex posted.  Hopefully those layer switching problems are gone now... please let me know if you test it.  It seemed to be working properly in my cursory little breadboard test.

OJ, effh:
I touched lib/key-functions* a bit, but I didn't change any function names (or get around to adding any yet).  Most of the layer logic that changed was in main(), and I can't recall doing anything that would effect you guys.

And I think that's it.  I'm tired, coz it's really late o_o , but I wanted to get the modified layer code out as soon as I could, in case DOX was waiting for it.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 11 June 2012, 09:19:08
Quote from: PrinsValium;611101
There is also a micro SD-card adapter (http://pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) for the Teensys. Imagine GBs of data... I had plans to use one as a keylogger on my own keyboard. I haven't been experimenting any with it, but there are adapters in my home built boards.
Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.

Also< I'd lay that macro-functionality would probably be pretty useful. I can imagine using it for a number of things.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 11 June 2012, 09:59:53
Quote from: PrinsValium;611101
...Of course you are correct. Things the OS doesn't need to know about is best kept in the dark =) I should have said that "character mapping" problems are best solved on the OS side. Once again macros might be the solution I'm actually looking for. Do I want to type 'λ' or really just "\lambda"? =D...

Quote from: ic07;611126
Hmm, I hadn't been thinking about macros; and I would think those were easier to do in the OS (or.. I use gvim, so that's where mine are).  Still interesting though, maybe I'll think about them again sometime when I'm not so tired :) .  Would you prefer them in firmware?  If so, why?...

Quote from: dorkvader;611178
Hmm, interesting! This would also guarantee I'd never be able to take it into work and use it, though. In a similar vein, are there any good programs (linux or windows) that track how many keystrokes you've done? Sort of a mouse odometer for the keyboard. Peel free to PM me so as not to get too far off topic if you must.

Also< I'd lay that macro-functionality would probably be pretty useful. I can imagine using it for a number of things.

I have to agree with the above, Dork, the OS is much better suited for macro handling than the firmware. I still disagree with Prins' assertion that the OS is better for handling character mappings than the KB when you're working with a non-standard layout, but it's a dead horse at this point. But hey, if macros make it into the firmware at some point (maybe after initial release?) that would be fantastic.

No updates yet on the GUI, I plan on putting in some hours this week to see if I can get a "Shell" of it working by the weekend.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 11 June 2012, 14:29:30
A friend who has both a Kinesis and one of my Teensy keyboards wrote his own basic macro functionality for the latter. I know he uses it for some things, but not really exactly what. I know I myself often do repetetive things on the keyboard. I should probably do them in smarter ways to start with. But some basic macro functionality is a good start to not learn to do things right =)

Putting the macro functionality on the OS side once again screws up portability.. My vim-fu is very faint. I guess emacs does macros too, I just haven't learned. But they could be useful in other contexts as well.

The same friend as above also use a keylogger (in the OS though) to collect statistics of keypresses. He says it never seizes to be disturbing to see his passwords in clear text =D There should be plenty of keylogger available from fishy corners of the net. Search for key logging and take the plunge...

Quote from: OrangeJewce;611203
I still disagree with Prins' assertion that the OS is better for handling character mappings than the KB when you're working with a non-standard layout, but it's a dead horse at this point.


I'm not going to argue too much about this. But there are limitations you just can't get around. Getting characters that are not in the map the OS is set to for one is next to impossible (macro alt-codes might solve that though...). Moving characters between layers of different "shift-depth" will get pretty messy and involve sending shift/alt-combos even when they could be unwanted. But hey, I don't really care =)

Edit: Function keys and an embedded numpad would be things best handled as layers in firmware. But that much I think we all agree about.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 11 June 2012, 17:33:01
About macros, now that I've slept, I can see there being times where i'd like to have them in firmware.  How to implement, and whether or not I feel they're justified (personally), I'm not sure yet.  I've opened an issue (http://'https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/issues/10') on github, if anyone's concerned... :) or discussion can continue here of course.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Netdewt on Mon, 11 June 2012, 20:53:24
I wish I had something intelligent to contribute to this thread.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 11 June 2012, 23:00:16
Quote from: Netdewt;611679
I wish I had something intelligent to contribute to this thread.
Registering your interest counts as an intelligent contribution.

Very intelligent, in this case.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Tue, 12 June 2012, 01:48:09
Quote from: dorkvader;611743
Registering your interest counts as an intelligent contribution.

Very intelligent, in this case.

In that case, I would like to register my interest as well!
Speaking of, which time frame are we looking at at this point? A couple of months, a year ... ?

I wouldn't be able to afford in the next two or three months, but later in the year, I'd most likely have the finances to cover it.

I've been thinking, not sure whether this has been discussed previously, as I haven't followed the thread the whole way through, will we be able to use either side of the board independently of the other? I could see myself / others wanting to use it as a gaming pad, without having to necessarily have both sides on the desk.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ped on Tue, 12 June 2012, 03:24:57
No. Only the right side may be used independently of the other, or at least that is the way it is being designed right now. For the left side to be active, it must be connected to the right side via TRRS cable. The reason for this is that it was decided early on by Dox, I think, that only one controller would be used, which means that one of the halves had to be chosen as the 'host' half, so to speak.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 12 June 2012, 07:06:31
Quote from: Zifle;611832
In that case, I would like to register my interest as well!
Speaking of, which time frame are we looking at at this point? A couple of months, a year ... ?

I wouldn't be able to afford in the next two or three months, but later in the year, I'd most likely have the finances to cover it.

I've been thinking, not sure whether this has been discussed previously, as I haven't followed the thread the whole way through, will we be able to use either side of the board independently of the other? I could see myself / others wanting to use it as a gaming pad, without having to necessarily have both sides on the desk.

Dox had suggested that the case prototype should be arriving shortly. I am not sure if there will be a second round of PCB prototypes (move thumb keys), after that there isn't really a huge amount of work left from the hardware side. I would say it is looking like it will be in the next 2-3 months as opposed to 6-8. Maybe Dox can chime in here.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Tue, 12 June 2012, 15:01:45
Quote from: ped;611868
No. Only the right side may be used independently of the other, or at least that is the way it is being designed right now. For the left side to be active, it must be connected to the right side via TRRS cable. The reason for this is that it was decided early on by Dox, I think, that only one controller would be used, which means that one of the halves had to be chosen as the 'host' half, so to speak.

That makes sense, although I'm slightly sad to hear the outcome, given my previous reasoning. Regardless, that alone should not be a reason to pass on something like this ^^

Quote from: OrangeJewce;611923
Dox had suggested that the case prototype should be arriving shortly. I am not sure if there will be a second round of PCB prototypes (move thumb keys), after that there isn't really a huge amount of work left from the hardware side. I would say it is looking like it will be in the next 2-3 months as opposed to 6-8. Maybe Dox can chime in here.

Cheers,

Sounds good, looking forward to seeing upcoming pics of a more finished device!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 12 June 2012, 15:06:54
Don't forget that with sufficient desk space and a properly sized cable you just put the left half where you want it and tuck the right half out of the way (or vice versa).  If you choose to do your own case you could even devise a scheme to stand that half on edge so even less desk space is needed.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 12 June 2012, 15:17:38
I think would be possible to make both halves identical using the same PCB for both the left and right half. It looks to me like there would be enough room to fit both the Teensy as well as the other IC there on top. If the PCB was done this way it would be possible to choose to use any or both halves, and also which half the USB cable would be running to.

The controller parts from the Teensy can be bought elsewhere and surface mounted, this saves some space. The ATmega chips can be run on their internal 8MHz oscillator as well, cutting the number of required components down. I've been experimenting successfully with this today =) This requires reprogramming some fuse bits though, which in turn requires reloading the bootloader, both which requires a programmer unit... And the stock bootloader as well as the LUFA one are both 4kB.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 12 June 2012, 15:59:13
Quote from: PrinsValium;612147
I think would be possible to make both halves identical using the same PCB for both the left and right half. It looks to me like there would be enough room to fit both the Teensy as well as the other IC there on top. If the PCB was done this way it would be possible to choose to use any or both halves, and also which half the USB cable would be running to.

The controller parts from the Teensy can be bought elsewhere and surface mounted, this saves some space. The ATmega chips can be run on their internal 8MHz oscillator as well, cutting the number of required components down. I've been experimenting successfully with this today =) This requires reprogramming some fuse bits though, which in turn requires reloading the bootloader, both which requires a programmer unit... And the stock bootloader as well as the LUFA one are both 4kB.

This topic was discussed a long time ago and it was determined that only one controller was going to be used. But everyone is more than welcome to customize their Dox however they Feel! (I think your mod would be sick, if you ever undertake it as a project :thumb:)

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 12 June 2012, 16:31:44
This would really not change anything (other than the PCB layout). There could be separate USB controllers on either side, or one controller and a slave side (either side being the slave/master), or a single PCB could be used as a one handed keyboard of left or right hand type. This would also double the number of same design PCBs which may or may not have an impact on price. If there are huge amounts already this doesn't make too big a difference. The main problem is the possible need to use a serial programmer to set up the controller chips. This would likely have to be done by someone from here in bulk before shipping them out to people.

I'm of course more than willing to help out with what I know about chip programming, bootloaders, PCB design and all.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 12 June 2012, 22:15:30
Quote from: PrinsValium;612175
This would really not change anything (other than the PCB layout). There could be separate USB controllers on either side, or one controller and a slave side (either side being the slave/master), or a single PCB could be used as a one handed keyboard of left or right hand type. This would also double the number of same design PCBs which may or may not have an impact on price. If there are huge amounts already this doesn't make too big a difference. The main problem is the possible need to use a serial programmer to set up the controller chips. This would likely have to be done by someone from here in bulk before shipping them out to people.

I'm of course more than willing to help out with what I know about chip programming, bootloaders, PCB design and all.
I may have brought up having identical PCB's. The issue is that it still has to work with it "flipped". You could maybe do this with a lot of settable jumpers (like: Set to "A" for LH and "B" for RH). Also, Trace routing becomes difficult, and the cherry keyswitches are not symmetrical, so you'd need an extra hole per switch.

Then, having the possibility of chosen controller per side was discussed. This idea had much more going for it, as it's actually somewhat feasible. I don't think anyone came up with a decent plan to implement this (I think HW implementation is the best, so the controller doesn't "know" any better. Having a "master and slave" controller setup was rejected as well (Is it even possible with teensy?)

Anyway, if you come up with a good implementation for this, I don't see any reason to not include the capability.
---

So other than ugly shapeways plastic, has anyone come up with a good place to make the case?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 12 June 2012, 23:28:36
I don't think you need to do almost anything at all to get it to work flipped. But I just woke up and may not have thought this through all the way. Just mount the USB controller on one side and let the slave IC location be empty, And vise versa on the other side.

The switch is unidirectional by construction. They would be the only components needing to switch side. Through hole diodes are of course "flip symmetric" as as well (Internal diodes could still be used if they are mounted "backwards").

The flippable footprint should be no problem. Internal diode and LED holes also line up when it is flipped.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52840[/ATTACH]
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Wed, 13 June 2012, 00:12:36
Having the ability to build either side as the "main" board would be fantastic.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: uberben on Wed, 13 June 2012, 01:36:10
Quote from: PrinsValium;612439
I don't think you need to do almost anything at all to get it to work flipped. But I just woke up and may not have thought this through all the way. Just mount the USB controller on one side and let the slave IC location be empty, And vise versa on the other side.

The switch is unidirectional by construction. They would be the only components needing to switch side. Through hole diodes are of course "flip symmetric" as as well (Internal diodes could still be used if they are mounted "backwards").

The flippable footprint should be no problem. Internal diode and LED holes also line up when it is flipped.

(Attachment) 52840[/ATTACH]

This sounds doable to me. It has a lot of advantages, but will require much more careful layout.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Salisen on Wed, 13 June 2012, 07:23:51
You could have a 10x10 matrix for the switches, perhaps, and seperate it into two 5x10 halves.  Divert one of the matrices through the connector (would have to be 16 way) to the other side.

From each switch on the board, have traces running to the IC, and to the connector, total of 4 traces for each.

For each pin on the connector, have one trace running to the IC, and one running to the switches through an array of jumpers (you'd need 16 total, I think).

For the slave board, the jumpers would be present and an IC would not, so all IC connections would be redundant, leaving only the traces to the connector.

For the master, the jumpers would be left empty, traces would run from the IC to the set of switches on that board, and from the IC to the connector.

I don't think you'd have the option of putting the IC on either board though.  On one of the two it would have to be underneath as opposed to on top, or the pins would be the wrong. The Teensy is quite tall, so you'd make the keypad unnecessarily thick.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 13 June 2012, 07:32:39
I was thinking of using SMT components to rebuild the "Teensy". And I am pretty confident the slave IC comes in a smaller SMT package as well.. I know DOX wrote the part number somewhere but I can't seem to find it again =P

You would only need to do a regular key matrix and trace rows and columns to both the serial slave IC as well as the USB controller. Then choose which side to solder the controller/slave IC to. The traces to the other would only end up unconnected. It will look funny that the traces from the slave IC will lead to the connector, and from there down to the controller again =D There should be no need for jumpers anywhere, I think when trying to figure this out in my head...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 13 June 2012, 07:44:59
While I think the discussion about multi-controller and symmetrical PCBs is fantastic, and these ideas sound awesome, short of Dox completely renegging on this major design decision all of these proposals are going to stay in the realm of vaporware. I just don't see him having invested in several PCB prototypes just to do an overhaul on the PCB design, and because work has begun on the case prototype, it wouldn't make sense to push the project back further. TBH I really want to see the final product (pics!), not to mention have it in my hands in 3 months as opposed to another year for a redesign.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 13 June 2012, 07:57:08
Quit being so negative.. geesh, and by the way
Quote from: Dox;607456
Otherwise, everything went well. With the thumb keys a bit closer, it will be perfect!

Looks like there may be a PCB redesign whether you like it or not.. It is pretty quick by the way. And I do think DOX had meant to do more work on the PCB as it was. Those prototypes don't look like a finished product at all...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 13 June 2012, 09:30:50
Quote from: PrinsValium;612585
Quit being so negative.. geesh, and by the way

Looks like there may be a PCB redesign whether you like it or not.. It is pretty quick by the way. And I do think DOX had meant to do more work on the PCB as it was. Those prototypes don't look like a finished product at all...


Firstly, let's not make this personal. I wasn't attacking you, or your ideas. I was simply stating that the decision regarding these most recent proposals had already been made a long time ago, and that bringing them back from the dead had very little chance to change anything. I'm not going to argue about what Dox may or may not do in the future, because I am not him, nor can I control what he does. That being said and based on what I read earlier, when Dox makes a decision he tends to stand by it. You're welcome to critique me as much as you want, but in this case I feel pretty confident in saying that neither multiple controllers, in any configuration, nor flippable PCBs are going to make it into the feature set of the ErgoDox hardware.

Secondly, shortening some traces on a PCB does not count as a total redesign. In fact, Dox was going to do the mod himself on the PCBs by simply cutting the thumb section and doing a little bit of hand-wiring...

Quote from: Dox;602337
I think that the thumb keys are a bit too far out. The 3 furthest keys are hard to reach and my thumb is a bit too stretched in the standard (thumb on space) position.
I will put them closer for the case prototype. I will cut the thumb from the PCB and hand wire it to test it.


I implore you to start seeing what is there, as opposed to what your mind wants you to see.


Until the man himself intervenes here, I'm done discussing hardware. Firmware and UI, I'm all ears, because very few decisions have been made. ic07 and I have expressed that we are open to new ideas and features for it, and thus encourage discussion along those lines.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 13 June 2012, 09:46:04
Could be some excellent ideas for the ergoDOX V2

With the flippable PCB, how does it work out what with that extra chip? Also, one could have two locations for the Teensy, depending on what hand/side you have, you could use different holes across the top.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 13 June 2012, 10:19:06
I PMed DOX to ask if I could have a look at the schematics. I'll wait and see what he says. I don't want to interfere with his work if he doesn't want me to. But really, I think a flippable PCB is quite simple to put together. That being said without me having given it a decent try.

The Teensy can be mounted on either side really. Since it is through hole it only needs to be mounted upside down if changing side. The only slight annoyance this comes with is reaching the reset button on it. That is easily solved with a hole in the PCB. This I have done before =) Bending the legs backwards on that other IC is probably not a good idea though...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 13 June 2012, 14:48:29
Quote from: alaricljs;612141
Don't forget that with sufficient desk space and a properly sized cable you just put the left half where you want it and tuck the right half out of the way (or vice versa).  If you choose to do your own case you could even devise a scheme to stand that half on edge so even less desk space is needed.


Or for an extra ~$25 and a little work, you could put a Teensy and a TRRS connector in an altoids can, and use that for the right hand side :) .
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 13 June 2012, 20:11:36
Quote from: ic07;612818
Or for an extra ~$25 and a little work, you could put a Teensy and a TRRS connector in an altoids can, and use that for the right hand side :) .
Whoah, that's brilliant, I hadn't considered that.

Now I want like 5 more of those teensy's.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Sat, 16 June 2012, 16:28:28
As regards the switches:
7bit is currently doing a group buy of cherry switches (both plate and PCB mounted) over at deskthority:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

Just thought it's worth mentioning. Of course getting in on that group buy depends on the time frame we are looking at as regards the final production of the dox. :-)


How many keys we are actually going to have?


EDIT: Silly me, he has a thread here at Geekhack as well, in the group buys section.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 16 June 2012, 22:22:08
I count 36 keyswitches per hand from the images DOX posted here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=602321&viewfull=1#post602321

So that's 72 total, right?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 17 June 2012, 01:17:05
Quote from: dorkvader;615204
I count 36 keyswitches per hand from the images DOX posted here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard&p=602321&viewfull=1#post602321

So that's 72 total, right?

Pretty sure it's 38 per hand = 76 total.  (I cheated a little though, since I looked at how many were mapped in the firmware before I looked at the picture again to make sure). :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Sun, 17 June 2012, 07:14:24
Well, now I am certainly tempted to justs join that group buy. Which switches do you think would fit the ErgoDox best? I am thinking either linear MX Reds, or alternatively clicky MX Blues or MX Whites (I like their sound better).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 17 June 2012, 07:20:45
Quote from: mSSM;615421
Well, not I am certainly tempted to justs join that group buy. Which switches do you think would fit the ErgoDox best? I am thinking either linear MX Reds, or alternatively clicky MX Blues or MX Whites (I like their sound better).

Answer: Get two! One with reds and one with whites!

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 17 June 2012, 11:14:49
If it doesn't end up being too much, I might get two sets of PCBs and one case to just change them out with different switches.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Tue, 19 June 2012, 07:29:27
I've just scanned this thread and am most definitely interested in the keyboard that is being developed. Glad to see all the knowhow on geekhack is being put into practice! Add me to the list.

I've been on a quest for a better keyboard for many years and have tried *all* the usual suspects and failures, only to get more dissapointed. I'm currently compromising on a Kinesis Freestyle and concluded that separation is more important to me than angling/tenting, etc. If only it had better quality keys...

While I tried to grasp as much of the current status/development as I could, I may have missed some info, since obviously I couldn't read every single message in this thread. So forgive me if one of my comments has already been dealt with. Maybe it would be an idea to add some more FAQs on the website?

First, I agree with most of the development decisions, layout, functionality, etc. Congrats on your efforts of merging the best aspects of all current mediocre keyboards ;-)

Costs: I consider 300 dollars or more perfectly acceptable. I'm at the keyboard over 10 hours a day. I pay top money for the best ergonomic chair I can find and use high quality monitors. Why save on what I consider the most important aspect of computing: a comfortable input device. Honestly, I'd pay a lot more for any keyboard that met my needs. Quality, durability, flexibility outweigh costs.

Build: Can't really figure out how this will work. Are we supposed to order certain parts ourselves and finish the keyboard? Or will certain community members do this? My technical/engineering knowhow is too limited to do this. I can imagine this will be a mayor obstacle for people who are interested in the final product.

Functionality: While I understand the choice for compactness and minimalistic design, I find the lack of Function keys a serious flaw. Before you jump on me, let me explain. To me, a keyboard geared at heavy PC users should focus on being ergonomic in all aspects, including minimizing the usage of a mouse or pointing device. I use Alt+ Control + Function key combination hundreds of time a day in all sorts of programs and can't imagine using a keyboard that doesn't have these. It would drastically slow me down. (Does everybody seriously use a mouse to close a program when Alt+F4 is within reach?)

Adding these to a different layer or reassigning them doesn't really solve the problem: If I have to switch layers, use a combination, switch back, I'm doubling the amount of keys I have to use. If I'd assign them to the number keys, other shortcuts (such as Control+1 through 4) in Outlook are gone.

I fully understand that this contradicts some of your initial design/functionality choices, but still wanted to share my thoughts, mostly because I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed in more detail. ;-)

Maybe adding a X-keys device (key stick, XK-24) for Function keys... ?
Still interested in the keyboard though.... Hell, I'd buy a few just to keep you guys motivated!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Tue, 19 June 2012, 07:41:04
Quote from: Surger;616929
Functionality: While I understand the choice for compactness and minimalistic design, I find the lack of Function keys a serious flaw. Before you jump on me, let me explain. To me, a keyboard geared at heavy PC users should focus on being ergonomic in all aspects, including minimizing the usage of a mouse or pointing device. I use Alt+ Control + Function key combination hundreds of time a day in all sorts of programs and can't imagine using a keyboard that doesn't have these. It would drastically slow me down. (Does everybody seriously use a mouse to close a program when Alt+F4 is within reach?)

Something like that heavily depends on the operating system you are using, does it not?

For my day to day tasks I mainly use mutt and vim in a terminal multiplexer (tmux), Firefox with the Pentadactyl plugin, and PDF readers such as llpp or mupdf, where all of the mentioned programs have vim-like keybindings. My window manager (Xmonad) also has vim-like keybindings.

I _never_ use the mouse, and I do not even rely heavily on Alt, Control or function keys (CTRL is my most heavily used key).

While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work. But even so, if you use appropriate programs, you have don't have to have special functions keys.

I don't really understand what more keys you need on that keyboard. What's missing?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 19 June 2012, 07:51:56
Quote from: mSSM;616931
While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work. But even so, if you use appropriate programs, you have don't have to have special functions keys.

I don't really understand what more keys you need on that keyboard. What's missing?

So you're saying change his entire workflow and the programs he uses in order to suit the keyboard?  That's a bit silly.  

I'm interested in this project because of the engineering involved, so my opinion is not one coming from a potential user...  That said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard without F-keys.  I've been pondering designing my own board and am sorely tempted to include a 2x5 set on the left (ala Sun type-5) to have more keys.  This way I can have all the f-key combos for the programs I use and then all my own combos for other uses.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 08:07:46
Quote from: alaricljs;616934
So you're saying change his entire workflow and the programs he uses in order to suit the keyboard?  That's a bit silly.  

I'm interested in this project because of the engineering involved, so my opinion is not one coming from a potential user...  That said, I wouldn't buy a keyboard without F-keys.  I've been pondering designing my own board and am sorely tempted to include a 2x5 set on the left (ala Sun type-5) to have more keys.  This way I can have all the f-key combos for the programs I use and then all my own combos for other uses.

Even as a Windows user and developer, I never use the F'n keys. Maybe I'm just not pro enough for that kind of thing, but if I really needed a certain set, I don't think it's unruly to add a few keystrokes to switch to a different layer which, say, has remapped the numrow to f'n keys, and then when finished jump back to the base layer. I understand your hesitance about not having the F'n keys, and while custom layers may not be the perfect solution, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. This board, tbh, is probably not the most ideal for a Windows user, but it can definitely work. Still getting 2 if I can!

ic07, YGPM.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Tue, 19 June 2012, 08:11:29
Depending on the price, I might be interested too. I'll see :s.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 08:19:50
Quote from: Djuzuh;616942
Depending on the price, I might be interested too. I'll see :s.

Save for a while! It's going to be an amazing board, and there may never be another run of them again! ;)

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Tue, 19 June 2012, 08:23:14
Quote from: OrangeJewce;616949
Save for a while! It's going to be an amazing board, and there may never be another run of them again! ;)

Cheers,

But… But… All those other amazing GBs and boards?*:(
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Tue, 19 June 2012, 09:09:46
Quote from: mSSM;616931
While I certainly understand your need to cut back on using the mouse, your operating system (Windows of some flavour, I figure), is not really meant for that kind of work.


Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.

Quote from: OrangeJewce;616941
...I don't think it's unruly to add a few keystrokes to switch to a different layer which, say, has remapped the numrow to f'n keys, and then when finished jump back to the base layer. I understand your hesitance about not having the F'n keys, and while custom layers may not be the perfect solution, it's a heck of a lot better than nothing. This board, tbh, is probably not the most ideal for a Windows user, but it can definitely work.


Yes, obviously it can work, which is why I'm definitely interested, but - like I said - it will decrease efficiency.

Are there any numbers on which OS people who are interested are using? While I appreciate this keyboard may be intended/designed more for other OS, if (at any point) this project would turn more commercial, considering the needs of Window users may make the difference between success and failure. Just by sheer numbers of potential buyers.

Ah well, I'm guessing there's no chance in hell adding Function keys will be considered at this point... and I certainly don't want to sidetrack this initiative, so moving on!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 09:16:07
Quote from: Surger;616971
Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.



Yes, obviously it can work, which is why I'm definitely interested, but - like I said - it will decrease efficiency.

Are there any numbers on which OS people who are interested are using? While I appreciate this keyboard may be intended/designed more for other OS, if (at any point) this project would turn more commercial, considering the needs of Window users may make the difference between success and failure. Just by sheer numbers of potential buyers.

Ah well, I'm guessing there's no chance in hell adding Function keys will be considered at this point... and I certainly don't want to sidetrack this initiative, so moving on!

Surger,

     Unfortunately, as I told someone else who wanted to make some hardware changes, the design has pretty much been set in stone. That doesn't mean a v2 won't ever happen, but for this go around, there won't be any additional keys on top of the 76. It was proposed early on that more keys were added, but sadly it wasn't to be. I can tell you that the OS numbers will likely be skewed. Many of those who frequently chime in on the forums strike me as Unix/Linux developers. AFAIK I am one of the few who do Windows development. This doesn't mean that many do not use MSFT products, only that at work, where the greatest use of the keyboard occurs, a linux environment is preferable, and they use an editor like Vi/Vim, which allows them to pretty much never use a mouse.

I apologize in advance for any characterizations of the community. I do not mean any disrespect, as I love Unix ans work with it daily. These are just my impressions. I hope that you pick one of these up, I feel pretty confident it is going to fill a very unique and desired niche in the Keyboard market.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 19 June 2012, 09:28:55
I'm probably going to have function keys for the ones on the edges (and maybe the bottom). The "inside" two keys can be modifiers (for obvious reasons) you could also assign some of the keys near the thumbs to funciton keys.

I see how people don't like not having an extra row of keys across the top, but I don't think it's really needed, especially with so many assignable keys at your disposal. You can tailor the layout to include your most commonly used keys in the most easily hit positions. If you want, I can Download a graphics program and show you on the image.
---
To answer another one of your questions (I should add a FAQ: Good idea) It will likely be sold as a "parts kit" form, but several members, myself included, are willing to do the assembly, though I imagine most will want some money for their time. My goal would be to get as many of these ergoDOX's in the hands of people as possible.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Tue, 19 June 2012, 10:08:26
OrangeJewce, thanks for your comments. Yes, I gathered that most users here were developers, and appreciate they have different needs. Don't mistake my comments for criticism; just offering a slightly different perspective from a different potential target group.
 
Quote from: dorkvader;616983
I'm probably going to have function keys for the ones on the edges (and maybe the bottom). The "inside" two keys can be modifiers (for obvious reasons) you could also assign some of the keys near the thumbs to funciton keys.

Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.

Quote from: dorkvader;616983
To answer another one of your questions (I should add a FAQ: Good idea) It will likely be sold as a "parts kit" form, but several members, myself included, are willing to do the assembly, though I imagine most will want some money for their time. My goal would be to get as many of these ergoDOX's in the hands of people as possible.

OK. Excellent. Completely agree with compensating members for their time and effort!
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 10:44:13
Quote from: Surger;617009
OrangeJewce, thanks for your comments. Yes, I gathered that most users here were developers, and appreciate they have different needs. Don't mistake my comments for criticism; just offering a slightly different perspective from a different potential target group.
 

Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.


OK. Excellent. Completely agree with compensating members for their time and effort!

The great thing, in my opinion about this community, is that they are willing to go so above and beyond what normal forums do for their members. For instance, we have I think 4 developers working on the firmware and layout modifying GUI (myself included). Just recently the community came together to help a member out who had an immediate need to come up with some capital to help is sick dog, and GH rallied around him through direct and keycap donations to help raise the funds. The reason I bring any of this up is that many of us really just like giving back to the community of Mechanical enthusiasts, and so we give our time and money without expecting something in return. That's why I really enjoy coming to GH. But this is just my take on that issue. I don't think it's wrong at all that GH offers services to its members for a fee, just that what really amazes me about this place is how the community will come together to help each other out and to really innovate in the mechanical world, like with this project!

No worries Surge, I was merely clarifying some of why certain design decisions were made, and to hopefully put some of it in perspective for you. I am a Windows guy. At work, all the other developers tease me because I am stuck doing UI and automated testing, which has to be MSFT side, solely because that's what our customers use and we have to cater to their needs. I really enjoy that role, but I also understand that it's rather unique unless you're working on a very large windows application which has many collaborators. So I am with you in trying to make the keyboard for those of us who aren't hacking away at Unix programs frequently. That is why I took the lead in trying to develop a UI for people to modify, create, and share ErgoDox layouts. effh is helping me out by doing some of the interpreting work between the firmware hex and the output which will be edited in my program.

Anyways, I'll get off the soap box now, I only meant to say that there are others who are Windows dominant, and I do see why the F keys would be very useful for you.

Cheers,

OJ
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Tue, 19 June 2012, 11:00:17
Quote from: Surger;616971
Windows, which is perfectly suited for cutting back on using the mouse. You'll find that you can operate practically all commonly used Window functions and programs with a huge number of shortcuts (and many of these use the Function keys). The majority of casual PC users doesn't know this and doesn't use them, but I believe many professionals in text entry/editing related jobs DO use these. By excluding Function keys, these potentials buyers are - maybe - lost.

I understand perfectly well that you can have those functions in Windows, and that people who actually care about what their OS is capable of will use those features.

However, the workflow you have mentioned is very specific to the needs of Windows users, and there are many people on Geekhack and especially in this thread who do not need the functions-keys (the amount of people using HHKBs and Pokers here speaks volumes).

So, I believe a rewrite of the firmware and a redesign of the PCB as well as the keyboard's case to accomodate function keys would not really be adequate.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Tue, 19 June 2012, 11:26:17
Thanks for elaborating, OJ. Perfectly clear.  

By the way, is stating my intention to buy enough or do I need to do something to be added to an 'official list'.
Just want to make sure I don't miss out...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 11:28:30
Quote from: Surger;617043
Thanks for elaborating, OJ. Perfectly clear.  

By the way, is stating my intention to buy enough or do I need to do something to be added to an 'official list'.
Just want to make sure I don't miss out...


Dork will add you to his list I'm sure. When the time comes, You'll get a PM for more information regarding payment etc.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 11:31:24
Adding a "function modifier key", much like a shift or ctrl key that only momentarily turns on the function layer when pressed, shouldn't add to much discomfort using F keys. F keys on a regular keyboard are far enough away to lose home row anyways.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Tue, 19 June 2012, 11:53:42
Quote from: PrinsValium;617050
Adding a "function modifier key", much like a shift or ctrl key that only momentarily turns on the function layer when pressed, shouldn't add to much discomfort using F keys. F keys on a regular keyboard are far enough away to lose home row anyways.

you can even use a switch lock for this key \o/
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 12:09:40
Quote from: Djuzuh;617070
you can even use a switch lock for this key \o/

Why on earth would you want to do that?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Tue, 19 June 2012, 12:10:33
sorry, meant a mxlock swtch >>
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 12:41:02
Quote from: Djuzuh;617077
sorry, meant a mxlock swtch >>

Why on earth would you want to do that?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Tue, 19 June 2012, 13:03:21
so you don't need to hold the button down?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 13:27:29
Quote from: Djuzuh;617106
so you don't need to hold the button down?

The other option is to implement it as a type of "fn" key commonly seen on lenovo/laptop keyboards. This would have to be done on the firmware level, and I do not think that the GUI will be able to control that directly in its first iteration. If you want it try to make a feature request on the Git repository!

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:26:52
Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:56:58
Quote from: PrinsValium;617147
Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.


I think this is something to talk to ic07 about, and that someone should post on the codebase. I will dig up a link when I get home about it

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 16:11:56
Quote from: Djuzuh;617106
Quote from: PrinsValium;617092
Quote from: Djuzuh;617106
Quote from: PrinsValium;617092
Quote from: Djuzuh;617070

you can even use a switch lock for this key \o/

Why on earth would you want to do that?

sorry, meant a mxlock swtch >>

Why on earth would you want to do that?

so you don't need to hold the button down?


Had some cake, think I should dismiss your idea a bit more gently ;)

If it is a locking switch to change between different layouts, of which one contains F-keys for situations where they are handy, along with other more heavily used keys in that same layer, it could certainly be a good idea. As a means to reach a layer of exclusively F-keys it sounds pretty useless.

Imagine several locking layer switches enabling 2^(#layer keys) different layout choices. Did I hear someone saying DIP-switches? =D
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 19 June 2012, 16:24:46
I like my dip switches fancy, and large...
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 19 June 2012, 16:34:22
Quote from: Surger;617009
Yes, I can see that as an option. I will certainly try to 'work around' the missing f-keys. No need for an image; I can think of several solutions, such as positioning my X-keys (http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php) in between the two sections.


Another option, if you think it's worth a dedicated key position on the home layer, would be to define a layer key that's also an alt key, so instead of pressing alt+fn#, you'd be pressing [alt,layer]+fn# - and the alt+number keys would stay the same.  I'd probably be the one to add it to the firmware, but I think it'd be a fairly trivial addition if people thought it was worth having.


Quote from: PrinsValium;617147
Without having looked to close on the code, I think it should be really simple adding a if(my-fun-layer-key is pressed) send function key; else send regular key; This should be possible to do on a higher level than the I/O communication between the keyboard halves. And on this higher level nothing is particularly tricky to do yourself.

There should probably be some way of accessing the function keys no matter what. Although I use them next to never myself, sometimes they are actually necessary.


The keypress paradigm is a bit different in this firmware, but the general idea's correct: layer keys (and locking-layer keys) are implemented, and people can remap what they like.  Fn keys are currently accessible (in the QWERTY map) on the 2nd layer, where the number keys are.


Quote from: mSSM;616931
For my day to day tasks I mainly use mutt and vim in a terminal multiplexer (tmux), Firefox with the Pentadactyl plugin, and PDF readers such as llpp or mupdf, where all of the mentioned programs have vim-like keybindings. My window manager (Xmonad) also has vim-like keybindings.


I *wish* I had a workflow like that, lol.  Haven't had the patience to learn yet though...  I currently use gvim, chrome, and thunderbird, mostly, in Ubuntu + Gnome.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 19 June 2012, 16:56:24
I am going to have too look closer on that code some day =)

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 19 June 2012, 20:58:48
Quote from: PrinsValium;617243
I am going to have too look closer on that code some day =)

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).
I believe if you implement it as a hit to change, hit again to change back type layer switch, the MXlock works perfectly. I'm pretty sure you can set up the access-IS keyboards this way(as well as momentary) (though they don't have lock switches)

I really need to get a MXlock switch, so when I make wy phantom, I can switch from dvorak-and numpad to dvorak-and-arrowkeys. It's two useful layers (with an identical alpha-area) that I'd be using long enough to justify it, and it's a really good solution in my book.

I just need to PM 7bit about them :p
---
Also, I updated the second post the other day (or so I thought). I normally keep the "backup file" more up to date, though. If you're not on the interest list now, feel free to PM me or post again in this topic.
---
OJ is right: GH is a good community. I want to do my part keeping it that way.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Tue, 19 June 2012, 20:59:12
Quote from: ic07;617223
I *wish* I had a workflow like that, lol.  Haven't had the patience to learn yet though...  I currently use gvim, chrome, and thunderbird, mostly, in Ubuntu + Gnome.


I strongly urge you not to do it. :D You are going to be entirely dependent on your very own setup, and you are going to _hate_ using anything but. Fun thing is that it sounds like a lot of work to learn that stuff, but in the end it's more for lazy people. ;-)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Wed, 20 June 2012, 10:53:27
Quote from: ic07;617223
Another option, if you think it's worth a dedicated key position on the home layer, would be to define a layer key that's also an alt key, so instead of pressing alt+fn#, you'd be pressing [alt,layer]+fn# - and the alt+number keys would stay the same.  I'd probably be the one to add it to the firmware, but I think it'd be a fairly trivial addition if people thought it was worth having.


Yes, actually, adding that flexibility would be interesting: one would achieve an  Alt+Function key press without increasing the number of keys to be pressed. Same for a Control+fn and Shift+fn.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 20 June 2012, 21:06:02
Ladies and Gentlemen,

    I am looking for an Icon to represent the ErgoDox UI. This will be used as the shortcut and installation Icon. I am also looking for a masthead to use as part of the installation project. Feel free to shoot me a PM with something that constitutes your own original work or an image that you have license to use. Please note that by submitting you agree in whole that I and the ErgoDox team can reproduce and freely use the images at our own discretion. Anyone is welcome to send me something and I will let you know what is selected in the end if there are many submissions. If nobody comes forward I'll just slap something together, but hopefully somebody who's a better artist than I can help us out! Really looking forward to it.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 20 June 2012, 22:09:32
Since you already have transistors at each column, why not add the extra eight for the ROWn as well? This would allow you to use the full 500 USB mA. Say 480mA after the uC gets its share =) That would then be 60mA per ROWn. Brighter then that will not happen without extra power in any case.

Using 8 rows on a regular board is a little bit of a pain when laying out the matrix. 6 is easier to work with, and gives ~21 columns on a full sized board. 8x13 is actually 104 for you ANSI people ;)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Thu, 21 June 2012, 00:43:52
(http://i.imgur.com/QF6MD.png)
Minor update, still not satisfied with the look.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Surger on Thu, 21 June 2012, 05:24:27
Quote from: REVENGE;618450
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/QF6MD.png)

Minor update, still not satisfied with the look.


Nice. IMO, the prev. version without the tool was a bit cleaner, more powerfull. When it comes to design, less is often more ;-)
Have you considered flipping it?  I.e.: buttons sticking out on the right. It will be easier to use the design in different locations/situations; it will outline better when displayed amongst other icons, can be used easier on webpages etc.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 21 June 2012, 10:04:42
What's the recommended size (in px) for an icon like that?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 21 June 2012, 11:19:09
Quote from: dorkvader;618612
What's the recommended size (in px) for an icon like that?

The ico needs to be pretty small, 16x16. (LxW)
The Masthead should be roughly 500x70. (LxW)

Sorry I hadn't specified earlier. I thin I will use the posted image on the About page, and use the DoX brand on the eula.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 21 June 2012, 12:50:38
For best results in Win 7 you should use 64x64 and either let it scale or also provide 32x32 and 16x16.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Thu, 21 June 2012, 14:20:04
Quote from: alaricljs;618724
For best results in Win 7 you should use 64x64 and either let it scale or also provide 32x32 and 16x16.
Eh? I thought you should make a high res 256 x 256 icon, then provide an alternate icon for 32 x 32 / 16 x 16. The text on my mockup, for example, will cease to be very visible at 16 x 16.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Thu, 21 June 2012, 14:29:13
Can't you make an SVG graphic? Can't Windows 7 handle that?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Thu, 21 June 2012, 22:07:52
Quote from: mSSM;618805
Can't you make an SVG graphic? Can't Windows 7 handle that?
Don't think so. Bitmaps or PNG, IIRC.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 21 June 2012, 23:07:49
Quote from: PrinsValium;617243
I am going to have too look closer on that code some day =)

Is the locking/non-locking layer keys implemented as two separate functionalities? I had an idea to make shift locking (or act as a caps lock toggle) if it was pressed just shortly, and behave regularly when held for a longer period of time. I never got around to implement that though (as with many other things..).


:)

To answer that question though, I think I'll have to write a quick overview of the firmware paradigm anyway - or feel free to skip the next two paragraphs, I won't be sad :) .  In this firmware, each keypress and keyrelease generates a function call, which is responsible for doing all the actual work.  The function is passed a uint8_t (usually a keycode), along with some other things.  The assigned functions and keycodes are stored in 3 separate [layer][row][column] matrices; so for each key, on each layer, we have a keycode, keypress function, and keyrelease function.

So, the functions dealing with layer increment and decrement all manipulate the layer matrix (each key also has its own layer) in the same way.  Different behavior is implemented by changing which function gets called at what time.  To implement a non-locking layer key, for instance, you'd assign an equal layer increment and decrement to that key's keypress function and keyrelease function.  To implement a locking layer key, you'd assign an increment (or decrement) to that key's keypress function, and leave the keyrelease function null.  There are a couple other behaviors that can be implemented as well.

Long answer, sorry.  And I left out a lot of details, but I hope it's still clear enough.

Locking based on time sounds like a cool idea :) .  I don't know much of anything about AVR timers though, so if I look into it it'll have to be after I've gotten some other stuff done.


Quote from: mSSM;617428
I strongly urge you not to do it. :D You are going to be entirely dependent on your very own setup, and you are going to _hate_ using anything but. Fun thing is that it sounds like a lot of work to learn that stuff, but in the end it's more for lazy people. ;-)


Haha.  I realize that.  I'm pretty sure this keyboard will be a definite step in the wrong direction then ;)


Quote from: Surger;617814
Yes, actually, adding that flexibility would be interesting: one would achieve an  Alt+Function key press without increasing the number of keys to be pressed. Same for a Control+fn and Shift+fn.


Added to the 'dev' branch :) .  Still to early to promise which features'll be in the final release, or be visible from the UI, but at least it's been through preliminary testing.


Quote from: REVENGE;618450
[image]


Looks good :)
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 22 June 2012, 02:17:55
Install: (http://i.imgur.com/YzU8U.png) Config: (http://i.imgur.com/mFtnJ.png)
These would be more usable at resolutions down to 32 x 32.

Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 22 June 2012, 06:08:23
Quote from: REVENGE;619288
Install:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/YzU8U.png)
Config:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/mFtnJ.png)

These would be more usable at resolutions down to 32 x 32.

Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?

These are fantastic! Keep it all coming! I agree those would work great as Icons.

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 22 June 2012, 08:46:58
Quote from: REVENGE;619288
Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?
A GH'er made it for him somewhere in the DOXkb topic.
---

Edit: I can't find it now. Maybe it wasn't in the DOXkb topic.
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 22 June 2012, 09:20:19
Quote from: REVENGE;619288
...Dox: Did you use a font for your avatar, or is it custom?

Quote from: dorkvader;619404
A GH'er made it for him somewhere in the DOXkb topic.
---

Edit: I can't find it now. Maybe it wasn't in the DOXkb topic.

You guys mean this?

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17374-My-keyboard-project&p=335210&viewfull=1#post335210

Cheers,
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: REVENGE on Fri, 22 June 2012, 12:22:55
Quote from: OrangeJewce;619421
You guys mean this?

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17374-My-keyboard-project&p=335210&viewfull=1#post335210

Cheers,
Thanks Jewce! I want to use that font for any text titles, Arial just doesn't cut it IMO.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 19 July 2012, 08:40:42
Are there any updates? I haven't really seen much on the github.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Thu, 19 July 2012, 09:09:27
Are there any updates? I haven't really seen much on the github.

Cheers,

was quite a bit of progress on deskthority, imagine it'll make its way here.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 19 July 2012, 09:25:48
Can you link where they talked about this project over there?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 19 July 2012, 09:36:54
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html

There's the topic on DT. Dox has a working prototype with a shapeways plastic case. I believe the case was $200 total.

I'm hoping to have the case files updated this weekend, so we can get some quotes on the layer case from water/laser cutters.
---
I'll be updating the interest list later this evening with all the interest garnered from DT over the break.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 19 July 2012, 10:06:14
Thanks Vader!

     I will have to get in contact with ic07 and move up my timeline for completing the UI project prototype. I had no idea so much progress was being made! I figure I will have 4-6 weeks from the initiation of the group buy to get V 1.0 of the firmware stuff out so that should be pretty good I would think. I will keep up to date on both threads.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Inf3rn0_44 on Sat, 28 July 2012, 18:52:04
This thread is amazing keep up the great work! I am holding off a Kinesis Advantage for one of these babies!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 28 July 2012, 18:56:34
This thread is amazing keep up the great work! I am holding off a Kinesis Advantage for one of these babies!

Same here. Hopefully this will become a reality by the time school starts.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fatchoi on Thu, 02 August 2012, 08:52:01
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 02 August 2012, 09:29:40
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Inf3rn0_44 on Thu, 02 August 2012, 10:21:42
oh damn, thats expensive!  :o
if there is a way to reduce overall costs, please go ahead.
I really like the concept!
best wishes
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Thu, 02 August 2012, 12:25:06
We'll see how it turns out. In the end the PCB will probably be reasonably cheap, MX blacks are cheap if you harvest them from some other board and if need be a piece of cardboard will work as coaster case.

I'd rather have it cheap and dirty than not at all.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fatchoi on Thu, 02 August 2012, 22:58:26
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

Cheers,

Hm... If excluding shipping, it's $350 or below, please count me in. ;)
(Expects a shipping of $60)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 03 August 2012, 14:24:13
Hi guys, I'm interested in it, if it's under US$300 (all assembled and ready to use) and if you ship it international.

Please keep me updated. Thanks ;)

Currently I don't think you'll be able to get it for that price, from DT it seemed like aluminum cases were going to be in the $200 range, and after PCBs you'd be sitting at around $250. Switches and Caps are going to come in at around another $100 (depending on type). Then add assembly and international shipping, and I don't see it going for less than $400 :'(. If you can get in on a printed plastic case it may push the cost down by $100, but I am not sure what the status is on that.

Cheers,

Hm... If excluding shipping, it's $350 or below, please count me in. ;)
(Expects a shipping of $60)

What it will all come down to is the case material. It seemed like, based on the DT discussions, DoX was going to offer only Aluminum in the official group buy, but I think The_Beast was investigating 3D printing options for plastic cases, which is where my reduced amount for cases came from.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 03 August 2012, 14:34:02
Hi! I'm new to geekhack, but I'd like to register interest in this. I found the site at ergodox.org (based on a reference to it in my introduction thread here on geekhack), but it's a little bare. How do I go about getting one of these?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Djuzuh on Fri, 03 August 2012, 14:44:05
Hi! I'm new to geekhack, but I'd like to register interest in this. I found the site at ergodox.org (based on a reference to it in my introduction thread here on geekhack), but it's a little bare. How do I go about getting one of these?

You wait until orders go public.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: fatchoi on Fri, 03 August 2012, 23:17:36

What it will all come down to is the case material. It seemed like, based on the DT discussions, DoX was going to offer only Aluminum in the official group buy, but I think The_Beast was investigating 3D printing options for plastic cases, which is where my reduced amount for cases came from.

Cheers,

Let's see how it goes :D
If the end product is great, don't mind paying a bit more. :)
Thanks for your quick reply.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 05 August 2012, 18:58:09
So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:


Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 05 August 2012, 23:13:45
I'd like to add my interest in buying two sets of PCBs.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: braaaiiins on Mon, 06 August 2012, 01:42:55
If the PCBs are under under $100 for a set, I'm in for one.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 06 August 2012, 14:18:35
So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:

  • The design of the device is all but set in stone at this point.
  • Dox already has a prototype, has put it through the paces, and loves it.
  • No official order has been placed yet, so most (if not all) others don't have one yet.
  • At one point geekhack went down, and the deskthaurity spread started up in its absence.
  • Price is looking to be over $400 at this point, bottom line.

Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.

I cruise both forums, and so does Dork. As for the rest of the community, I'd say that more discussion exists on DT. However, I would not rely on that to contain anything official outside of what is occurring with PCB development. For official announcements, etc., I would encourage you to look at www.ergodox.org and maintain a presence here because the official GB will most definitely have a thread here.''

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 07 August 2012, 01:42:46
So after reading through this thread (and the accompanying thread on deskthaurity), I think I've gleaned the following:

  • The design of the device is all but set in stone at this point.
  • Dox already has a prototype, has put it through the paces, and loves it.
  • No official order has been placed yet, so most (if not all) others don't have one yet.
  • At one point geekhack went down, and the deskthaurity spread started up in its absence.
  • Price is looking to be over $400 at this point, bottom line.

Which site are people treating as the home for this now? GH was first, and appears to be back now, but it seems to be fairly stalled compared to the DT thread.
I forgot my DT Password, so I can't update then until I remember or reset it.

I've updated the info: Will update the post later.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 19 August 2012, 22:25:54
Just realized Lister is on the list, but not Litster.  Don't believe that Lister imposer. I am the real deal.  Litster is the real deal!  I am in since post 6 on this thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg428686#msg428686)!   ;D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tsangan on Sun, 19 August 2012, 22:39:24
Didn't want to commit before but after seeing Dox working proto I will be in on this
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 20 August 2012, 01:20:31
in to help as usual.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 20 August 2012, 11:18:40
Hopefully next month I'll be able to begin working on the meat of the UI, as IC hands me a relatively stable version of the firmware. I think Dox is still working out some issues with the case, and Prins just shipped the updated PCBs to both Dox and IC last week. I would estimate at least 2 months before a GB still.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Mon, 20 August 2012, 13:44:44
My price limitation may be a bit higher, as I have had income for a few weeks now, and am due for a nice pay bump in just a couple more weeks. Timing is everything! :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: StaCT13 on Tue, 28 August 2012, 23:02:26
If interest is still high in this and progress is still being made, I'd be willing to buy one for about $500, assuming the price includes everything needed to get it working and a set of blank keycaps.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: damorgue on Tue, 28 August 2012, 23:13:43
If interest is still high in this and progress is still being made, I'd be willing to buy one for about $500, assuming the price includes everything needed to get it working and a set of blank keycaps.

The case will determine if it ends up costing more or less than $500 I believe. A milled aluminium case will ofc make it cost quite a bit, but there are other options in the works.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: The_Beast on Mon, 10 September 2012, 00:35:26
I thought I registered interest in a PCB



Anyways, I'm interested in a pcb :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 10 September 2012, 01:06:01
Interested
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ian S on Tue, 11 September 2012, 08:50:21
I've not read the whole 29 pages.  Is there an option for Topre switches?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: damorgue on Tue, 11 September 2012, 08:52:41
I've not read the whole 29 pages.  Is there an option for Topre switches?

Not a chance.

This is only for Cherry MX. Making one for alps wouldn't be that difficult, but it would require a new pcb to be made. Topre is just way to different unfortunately.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ian S on Tue, 11 September 2012, 09:09:13
Would that be related to a controller to work with the capacitive switches?  Oh well. :(  I anyway half expected all that and the switches too would be propriety and not for third party products.

Thanks for your reply  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Tue, 11 September 2012, 10:31:10
Making one for alps wouldn't be that difficult, but it would require a new pcb to be made.

ALPS!!!! make it happen! just moar ALPS!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 11 September 2012, 11:46:50
For a split ergonomic keyboard with topre switches, there is the μTron / uTron ... here, Amazon-Japan has it:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Personal-Media-Media-%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AF%E3%83%ADTRON%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89-U01C0240-01-%E5%B7%A6%E5%8F%B3%E5%88%86%E9%9B%A2%E5%9E%8B%E9%9D%99%E9%9B%BB%E5%AE%B9%E9%87%8F%E7%84%A1%E6%8E%A5%E7%82%B9%E6%96%B9%E5%BC%8F%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%EF%BC%88%E3%83%86%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B9%EF%BC%89/dp/B004BZ2TOA

Would that be related to a controller to work with the capacitive switches?  Oh well. :(  I anyway half expected all that and the switches too would be propriety and not for third party products.

Thanks for your reply  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Icarium on Tue, 11 September 2012, 12:00:06
If you can't figure out what it costs from that page: Be glad.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: docomoz on Thu, 20 September 2012, 09:12:07
I'm in. No matter the cost.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Pyrolistical on Thu, 20 September 2012, 15:55:46
I'm in. No matter the cost.

Boy, do I have a keyboard for you sir!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Ian S on Thu, 20 September 2012, 16:19:13
For a split ergonomic keyboard with topre switches, there is the μTron
Ah, thanks, yes I saw that a little while ago together with a video and that board seemed to be 'wrong' in a couple or so ways, not least, the price, but I recall the slope and angle looked wrong, maybe had too few keys, either way, unlike docomoz above, alas or me price is a factor.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kta on Sat, 22 September 2012, 06:16:48
This is really promising, it looks like the perfect input device to me:)

if the price is in the 500$ range, I am interested for at least one set.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Wed, 26 September 2012, 19:24:15
anyone interested in pooling together to print some ergodox cases?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 28 September 2012, 12:43:43
bpiphany enlisted me as his beta tester. I soldered diodes and a teensy on to the right hand PCB (no connectors or resistors). After I flashed the firmware from github on to the teensy, the keyboard is not recognized by Windows at all when I plug it in.

Do I need to connect the two halves together in order for the teensy to boot correctly? Do I need to flash both .hex and .eep files onto the teensy? the 1.06 loader doesn't seem to know how to flash the .eep file.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 28 September 2012, 12:56:01
yeah... the .eep is in the same exact format as .hex, if you rename it then it'll load... I just don't know how the teensy loader determines where to load it to.  The file should tell it, but does it listen?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 28 September 2012, 12:56:18
anyone interested in pooling together to print some ergodox cases?

Absolutely. If you haven't seen it though you might want to check out JesuswasaZombie's GB IC thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35439.0) as I think there are also moves being made there to coordinate this. Either way, I'm in! I'd like to see this happen as soon as possible.

bpiphany enlisted me as his beta tester.

AWESOME. I'm really excited to get the kind of info from the field that you're providing. Hope you keep the thread posted!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 28 September 2012, 12:57:37
Maybe some clues here:  see updates to rev 1.05

http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/loader.html (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/loader.html)

and more here (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/lufa-support/Qookbb9v_YE): 

Hi guys!  Here's the EEPROM-writing asm code the GUI-based Teensy Loader
uses.  Actually, a binary copy of this is built into the Teensy Loader.   
When opening the .hex file, the Teensy Loader checks if there's an .elf
file which matches the .hex file, and if so the .eeprom section is
extracted from the .elf and appended to the binary data from of tiny
program.  Once downloaded and run, it just writes to the eeprom and then
jumps back to the bootloader.


Seems you need the original elf, or a way to put them back together.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 01 October 2012, 09:18:57
Why does deskthority get all the nice pictures (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-480.html) ??

Copying couple of ic07's pics here, it looks sooooo nice

Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Sifo on Mon, 01 October 2012, 09:32:13
Looking good
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 01 October 2012, 09:47:45
Thanks for cross-posting those from DT. =D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tiarnachutch on Sun, 07 October 2012, 17:47:59
What's the current ETA on having final designs and beginning production? The mock-ups look amazing.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Sinzz on Sun, 07 October 2012, 21:09:42
hmmm.. interested.. but will have to see the final designs first.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 08 October 2012, 09:21:05
Prototypes are out in the field and are being beta-tested right now. The last remaining hurdle is the case, and even I still have no idea when we can expect that to be completed. You can always check out this thread on Deskthority for engineering related info.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 08 October 2012, 15:37:19
The last remaining hurdle is the case

I'd beta test on a yoga mat case like ic07 if it meant getting this thing sooner. Function over form! Case important, but less important; not sure if I'm alone in this opinion though.

Also I'm in between contracts right now so I've got a bunch of time I could dump into this. And a nice camera to indulge forum readers! :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Matias on Mon, 08 October 2012, 16:39:24
Why does deskthority get all the nice pictures (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-480.html) ??

Copying couple of ic07's pics here, it looks sooooo nice

Prototypes are out in the field and are being beta-tested right now. The last remaining hurdle is the case, and even I still have no idea when we can expect that to be completed. You can always check out this thread on Deskthority for engineering related info.

This is VERY cool.  Nice work!

Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 08 October 2012, 20:15:21
The last remaining hurdle is the case

I'd beta test on a yoga mat case like ic07 if it meant getting this thing sooner. Function over form! Case important, but less important; not sure if I'm alone in this opinion though.

Also I'm in between contracts right now so I've got a bunch of time I could dump into this. And a nice camera to indulge forum readers! :)

Hah, I am one to disagree with you, because IMO it holds the greatest design and production challenge of the entire keyboard!

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 08 October 2012, 20:36:02
yeah, without the case where is the 'ergo'?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 09 October 2012, 00:21:52
yeah, without the case where is the 'ergo'?

Respectfully: without the case, the keys are still laid out the same. If I were to guess, you'd opt for one of the sloped bottom designs? Personally, I'm going flat, so the keyboard will be just as ergo for me without the case as it will be with it.

Hah, I am one to disagree with you, because IMO it holds the greatest design and production challenge of the entire keyboard!

Totally conceded! I'd be interested to know if there is anything that can be done to help this challenge progress.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Tue, 09 October 2012, 00:33:28
yeah, without the case where is the 'ergo'?

The staggering of the keys? The split between sections? I'm sure you could do a tent design without a case...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 09 October 2012, 01:30:28
I haven't heard anything about this case being "ergo", so unless they can make it adjustable (which would be very difficult), it should be as flat and low profile as possible!

Then it would be up to each of us to prop/tilt/tent it as we please. I'll probably build a stand out of cardboard, or out of a coat-hanger or something, that can prop the keyboard halves to an angle of at least 45°
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 09 October 2012, 05:13:50
I haven't heard anything about this case being "ergo", so unless they can make it adjustable (which would be very difficult), it should be as flat and low profile as possible!

The diagrams for the case parts are on the ergodox website--there is one case top, and case bottoms of three different types:

flat:
(http://www.ergodox.org/Images/Downloads/Flat_BottomLeftCase2.JPG)

sloped (vertical)
(http://www.ergodox.org/Images/Downloads/Single_BottomLeftCase2.JPG)

double-sloped (horizontal and vertical).
(http://www.ergodox.org/Images/Downloads/Double_BottomLeftCase2.JPG)

So while not being adjustable per se, it does appear as though there are options in the works. Not sure about 45° though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 09 October 2012, 07:39:00
yeah, I was referring to the angled bottoms
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Workoft on Thu, 11 October 2012, 09:02:50
Hi,
This looks really good. Unfortunately, I didn't see this any earlier and now 30 pages are a lot to work through.
I have a few questions about the design.
What's the motivation for those extra keys on the bottom? I find keys like Alt, Ctrl and Alt-Gr on a conventional keyboard hard to reach with my fingers when my hands are in normal typing position, so I would think on an ergonomic keyboard there shouldn't be an extra row on the bottom.
Also the center keys are relatively hard to reach because it requires reaching over two columns.
Those who tried the prototype should know best, what's you experience with these?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Thu, 11 October 2012, 23:58:22
Here it is.  A couple of mistakes like the 3.5mm opening is too narrow, forgot the make room for the USB connector on the layers that sandwich the acrylic plate.  I want to have a built-in wrist rest to the case as well.  I will have to make all those changes for the next prototype.

(http://i.imgur.com/TPVLf.jpg)

Top view:
(http://i.imgur.com/zZOAy.jpg)

BTW, to use this case, you will need to solder SMD diodes or through-hole diodes on the bottom of the PCB.  SMD diodes on the bottom is better as you would not need to worry about the diode legs sticking up from the bottom.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dirge on Fri, 12 October 2012, 03:14:08
Outstanding work litster!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 12 October 2012, 03:16:44
Nice to see some progress being made on this. Hopfully too many custom boards don't come out at once, sounds dumb but I don't want to have to pick between custom boards. I WANT THEM ALL ^___^
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Fri, 12 October 2012, 03:56:27
You have officially have me bought. No matter the price. I'll buy a one, and any others for my friends. Need money now for more materials and stuff?

I am wondering if we can process these for bulk orders. Nah, thinking way too ahead.

Better yet, want some server space to host your stuff? Or you got it covered?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 12 October 2012, 08:50:58
Nice to see some progress being made on this. Hopfully too many custom boards don't come out at once, sounds dumb but I don't want to have to pick between custom boards. I WANT THEM ALL ^___^

Honestly, the eDox is too unique compared to all the other custom boards. I think owning one really will make you special compared to the numerous custom TKLs.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: The_Beast on Fri, 12 October 2012, 12:58:11
Nice to see some progress being made on this. Hopfully too many custom boards don't come out at once, sounds dumb but I don't want to have to pick between custom boards. I WANT THEM ALL ^___^

Honestly, the eDox is too unique compared to all the other custom boards. I think owning one really will make you special compared to the numerous custom TKLs.

Cheers,

Your right, but I'm not even sure I'll like an ergo keyboard yet. Plus I'm really like the GH60
Title: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Fri, 12 October 2012, 13:25:45
Looks good Lit, will similar colors be available as the filco/ Phantom acrylic cases?

Definitely hope the aluminum ones are reasonable. That design looks great.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: funkymeeba on Fri, 12 October 2012, 16:51:22
I tend to agree, litster. That case is funky, and I definitely liked what I saw of the Phantom cases.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 15 October 2012, 22:08:15
I have added a built-in wrist rest.  Also now I have a proper top layer thanks to DOX. 

(http://i.imgur.com/QG4S3.png)

click the picture to see the larger version that is not weird :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 15 October 2012, 22:15:55
Nice idea, litster.  Interested to see the new prototype case with wrist rest.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tiarnachutch on Mon, 15 October 2012, 22:31:10
I have added a built-in wrist rest.  Also now I have a proper top layer thanks to DOX. 

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/QG4S3.png)


click the picture to see the larger version that is not weird :-)
Excellent!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 15 October 2012, 23:44:19
I have added a built-in wrist rest.

I like the idea of a built-in wrist rest, but I'd be worried about disagreements stemming from details surrounding it (padding/firmness, surface texture, wrist rest dimensions for different hand sizes, etc), and potential setbacks surrounding the discussion. Is this just for the prototype that you've been testing or are you suggesting this for the full run of cases? Is there a plan for people who don't want it?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 16 October 2012, 14:18:05
I have added a built-in wrist rest.

I like the idea of a built-in wrist rest, but I'd be worried about disagreements stemming from details surrounding it (padding/firmness, surface texture, wrist rest dimensions for different hand sizes, etc), and potential setbacks surrounding the discussion. Is this just for the prototype that you've been testing or are you suggesting this for the full run of cases? Is there a plan for people who don't want it?

Yeah I would rather not have a builtin wrist rest, not only for the materials cost increase, but also because it'll take a lot of space. Cool though, and to each their own.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sat, 20 October 2012, 20:01:44
Now with wrist rest:
(http://i.imgur.com/0azLl.jpg)

And a view of the encased Teensy and other parts:
(http://i.imgur.com/pCBXf.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Sifo on Sat, 20 October 2012, 20:29:59
Wow litster that is beautiful. Great work !
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 20 October 2012, 21:59:30
I agree looking good.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tiarnachutch on Sun, 21 October 2012, 14:56:46
Looking good!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 21 October 2012, 16:52:47
Now with wrist rest

Out of curiosity, how are you making these? Are you sending the designs out to a shop somewhere or is this maybe the work of a 3D printer or something?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 21 October 2012, 17:24:08
They are acrylic sheets cut with a laser cutter fed with my drawings I design on my computer.  I cut these myself.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 21 October 2012, 18:02:49
Now with wrist rest:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/0azLl.jpg)


And a view of the encased Teensy and other parts:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/pCBXf.jpg)



Wow, that's amazing!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 21 October 2012, 18:11:43
Glad to see this is still progressing. Is this a working prototype? Why do you need to make a different revision prototype?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 21 October 2012, 19:58:24
The pair is done.  It was a lot of fun building the case.

(http://i.imgur.com/kTRGM.jpg)

It is exactly as I expect, a very good ergo keyboard, very much like my Kinesis Advantage.  Personally I enjoy typing on traditional layout more.  I am too used to that.

bpiphany, please make a split keyboard laid out like the MX5000 with a proper 6-pack cluster.  I will design a case for it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Mon, 22 October 2012, 18:26:02
I am so happy to have stumbled upon this marvelous project. Just knowing of its existence has relieved me of immense frustration. I've been fumbling with a recently bought Typematrix and scouring the internet for alternatives, cursing the cluelessness of industrial keyboard designs, until I almost at random landed on the key64 page. The moment I saw the design, I burst out in maniacal laughter; it was as if my every plea had been answered. Thanks to this thread, I now live with the hope of seeing these answers materialize under my running fingers. At last, I rest.

Anyway, I'm in for USD ~350. Accept Bitcoin for payment, and I'll send some delicious Danish beer on top.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 23 October 2012, 11:21:40
I am so happy to have stumbled upon this marvelous project. Just knowing of its existence has relieved me of immense frustration. I've been fumbling with a recently bought Typematrix and scouring the internet for alternatives, cursing the cluelessness of industrial keyboard designs, until I almost at random landed on the key64 page. The moment I saw the design, I burst out in maniacal laughter; it was as if my every plea had been answered. Thanks to this thread, I now live with the hope of seeing these answers materialize under my running fingers. At last, I rest.

Anyway, I'm in for USD ~350. Accept Bitcoin for payment, and I'll send some delicious Danish beer on top.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt bitcoin will be an accepted currency ( since the GB will almost assuredly be using paypal ). But more is merrier!

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:40:55
I know some people like the small, regular version, while some other people like the design with wrist rest.  But the switches are soldered to the PCBs with the mounting plate layer sandwiched in-between.  Switching between regular and the wrist rest version would require desoldering and resoldering switches

I can re-design the mounting plate layer so that you always use the smaller, regular mounting plate, and you can move that mounting plate layer to go with the regular version of the case or the wrist rest version.  When you use the wrist rest version, you just add an extension to the mounting-plate in the wrist rest area.  The top two and the bottom two layers will be whichever design you choose to use.  Everything is screwed down tightly so it should still be as sturdy as before.

I should do that to my Filco/Phantom case as well :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 23 October 2012, 13:49:19
I <3 that clear acrylic case with the built in wrist rests only thing about me i need my wrist rests to be 4.25in in width so it may or may not work for me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: thp777 on Thu, 25 October 2012, 15:23:15
what about having the wrist wrest area a separate piece and attach with neo magnets so you can snap it on and off.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 01 November 2012, 18:09:57
what about having the wrist wrest area a separate piece and attach with neo magnets so you can snap it on and off.
This is a good idea: I have about 20 of these from broken magsafe boards out of apple computers (Apple doesn't want the old magsafe 'boards back)

Bytheway, I've updated the list. If you're not on it, PM me please.

Sholud I put the pictures in the post as well to tantalize people?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 01 November 2012, 18:17:33
Hey dorkvader! On the offchance that you haven't been over to the DT thread recently, we're trying to start talking logistics with regards to moving forward. Can you take a look and weigh in?

Actually, I suppose the game goes for anyone following this thread here--here's the link. (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TDub on Fri, 02 November 2012, 05:06:19
The transparent case with wristrest looks seriously awesome. Can't wait for a GB for this keyboard.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Mon, 05 November 2012, 15:25:14
I posted this over at DT:

This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.

Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.

Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.

This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 06 November 2012, 09:26:04
I posted this over at DT:

This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.

Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.

Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.

This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.

I think this is a pretty dead horse tbh. Overall crowdsourcing this was ruled to be too costly upfront, and the logistics of handling all the money wasn't great. Secondly, it's hard enough trying to keep people settled whilst waiting for the case (many want pcbs NAO), It'd be really tough if we package caps now (since it can take a long time for a production run), to ask for an additional 2-3 months. When I get the UI done I plan on putting together something for a cap buy, since it seems there might not be a lot of interest in a WASD set.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 06 November 2012, 17:43:41
Why was crowdsourcing ruled to be too costly up front? AFAIK, indiegogo would run the campaign and if it was successful, they would take their 4% cut and release the money to the organizers who could then make the purchases for everything in bulk and get those balls rolling.

We get 30-60 days to collect money and target a completed product/kit 2-4 months down the road from that. It seems like the optimal model for getting as much money up front to order at higher qty. It also creates a sense of legitimacy to mitigate people's aversion to handing over a few hundo to a GH/DT user before we have everything together. This legitimacy would also be much more attractive to people outside of this community, leading to higher qty.

Once that chunk of money is available, we can start placing orders for the PCBs, electronics, and/or switches and ship them out as kits earlier while the case designs and keycaps get sorted out. So it would benefit people like me, who are card-carrying members of PCBNAO.

This is definitely more work than a simple group buy would be. But the scope of the project and the costs involved might require something more than simple group buy organization.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 06 November 2012, 23:17:31
Why was crowdsourcing ruled to be too costly up front? AFAIK, indiegogo would run the campaign and if it was successful, they would take their 4% cut and release the money to the organizers who could then make the purchases for everything in bulk and get those balls rolling.

We get 30-60 days to collect money and target a completed product/kit 2-4 months down the road from that. It seems like the optimal model for getting as much money up front to order at higher qty. It also creates a sense of legitimacy to mitigate people's aversion to handing over a few hundo to a GH/DT user before we have everything together. This legitimacy would also be much more attractive to people outside of this community, leading to higher qty.

Once that chunk of money is available, we can start placing orders for the PCBs, electronics, and/or switches and ship them out as kits earlier while the case designs and keycaps get sorted out. So it would benefit people like me, who are card-carrying members of PCBNAO.

This is definitely more work than a simple group buy would be. But the scope of the project and the costs involved might require something more than simple group buy organization.

Few months ago when kickstarter was initially proposed. At that time the idea went nowhere and was shot down.

I'm not going to dredge it up because...well this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it. Just note this issue has been discussed before, and while what happens may have changed between then and now, I won't hold my breath.

We don't know what type of quantity we are dealing with.
We still don't have a case. Dealbreaker.
Switches won't be part of the buy, neither will keycaps. This is really, really firm.

It's been stated over and over there won't be a buy before the case is done. I don't see how this is going to alleviate such concern in the short term, if we still have to wait for everyone to submit payment, only to receive their goods piecemeal. I don't like it personally, and I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want. I understand that people really want to get their hands on these things right now, but in the best interests of everyone who wants something I firmly believe we should wait for a final case design that can be mass produced. Once we have the R&D done I'm all ears on how to streamline the ordering and distribution process.

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top of a $200-$300 board really isn't cheap, since that won't include caps or switches. I'm still concerned about the IP related to these designs, we don't know what license everything will be covered under.

Cheers,

P.S.
Found Dox's original post from last December:
Quote
Quote
    Have you thought about broadening the audience a bit? Throw it on Kickstarter and get 100 people to pay $300. It couldn't hurt.
I thought about it but with my current job, I don't have the time to manage something like this.

P.P.S.
I have mispoke, and "costly" was incorrect of me. I will remand that, and instead would rather say that the issue was previously discussed hella long time ago (longer than I thought actually), no idea if Dox's situation has changed.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 07 November 2012, 00:49:21
OrangeJewce,

I just summarized my first turnaround with MassDrop (http://deskthority.net/post82080.html#p82080); I think it's very promising, and it addresses a lot of your concerns.

A couple of quick highlights in direct response to your items here:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 07 November 2012, 08:05:28
Thanks bisl,

      That alleviates a lot of concerns actually. I would be surprised if Dox would rather use a traditional buy for something like this. I agree, the primary concern with a standard GB is nobody can handle the money we're talking about here individually which may even reach the $100k mark. Paypal would freak the hell out, and if we put it in escrow, that's a huge amount of work that I am sure Dox wouldn't have time for.

Not sure if we'll be able to get a good deal on switches or any of the more rare ones, but we'll see. As for caps, I think the amount of interest will be pretty weak by comparison, so a traditional GB could be done for that.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:04:06
this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it.

I'll take your word for it!

I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.

Your money would only be held for an extra amount of time if the case designs were done and ready to order before the campaign was finished. It's not like anyone would sit around with the money while they twiddle their thumbs. When parts are ready to be ordered/manufactured, they should be. When parts come in to fulfill orders, the orders get shipped out. People getting their PCBs sooner doesn't make the complete kit come any later.

Is it just a lead time issue? You would only want to pay when the case design is finalized and you're only 2-3 weeks away from getting your parts instead of 6-8 weeks?

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...

Indiegogo takes 4%. Where is this 15% coming from? This is a moot point as MassDrop looks much much better for our needs here, but I have a different understanding than you of how it would have worked with indiegogo.

As far as the IP problems are concerned, ErgoDox is under the GPL so AFAIK, anyone could sell a version of it, but they might have to change the name. Having said that, I consider dox the owner of this project and wouldn't like to see anyone do a commercial run without his involvement or blessing.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:09:15
Massdrop works really well for the kit buy logistics solution but really unnecessary for buying key caps from SP. Anyone have any ideas oh how to get a custom PBT set for these unique layouts?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:10:14
this thread is 31 pages long and the DT thread is 22. 53 pages of searching ain't worth it.

I'll take your word for it!

I would rather not have my money tied up for an extra 3-4 weeks while some others get PCBs earlier because that's all they want.

Your money would only be held for an extra amount of time if the case designs were done and ready to order before the campaign was finished. It's not like anyone would sit around with the money while they twiddle their thumbs. When parts are ready to be ordered/manufactured, they should be. When parts come in to fulfill orders, the orders get shipped out. People getting their PCBs sooner doesn't make the complete kit come any later.

Is it just a lead time issue? You would only want to pay when the case design is finalized and you're only 2-3 weeks away from getting your parts instead of 6-8 weeks?

One thing to consider is this board is already expensive. 15% on top...

Indiegogo takes 4%. Where is this 15% coming from? This is a moot point as MassDrop looks much much better for our needs here, but I have a different understanding than you of how it would have worked with indiegogo.

As far as the IP problems are concerned, ErgoDox is under the GPL so AFAIK, anyone could sell a version of it, but they might have to change the name. Having said that, I consider dox the owner of this project and wouldn't like to see anyone do a commercial run without his involvement or blessing.

15% came from an off hand, poorly remembered post by someone somewhere who had talked to massdrop and the fee was high (probably not 15% but hey I haven't talked to them personally).

If he's going to use GPL, no way to stop anyone from doing anything in regards to a commercial production. TBH the pcb would be changed and the controller most likely integrated, not to mention some other likely changes that would make mass production easier (no pcb mount switch holes).

A lot of my concerns were put to rest by bisl's firsthand account with talking to a Massdrop rep. I still don't know what their fee would be, and it would be interesting to know.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:10:53
Massdrop works really well for the kit buy logistics solution but really unnecessary for buying key caps from SP. Anyone have any ideas oh how to get a custom PBT set for these unique layouts?

We start a GB for them!

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:15:00
But through who? IMSTO? MOQ is 500...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:17:29
A lot of my concerns were put to rest by bisl's firsthand account with talking to a Massdrop rep. I still don't know what their fee would be, and it would be interesting to know.

Yeah, I'm curious about the business side of what they do, although I'm not sure that will be transparent.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:18:43
But through who? IMSTO? MOQ is 500...

Yeah, I was just relegated to getting an alphanum set and using blanks for the other keys.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 07 November 2012, 13:20:00
Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 07 November 2012, 14:58:00
Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.

So we have to hope that the prices start low? Seems like a strange business model to me, since allegedly they are passing that additional tier savings back to us? Since when is imsto's moq 500? I thought it was 100?

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 07 November 2012, 15:21:08
Multiple members met with them IN PERSON. Including myself... Basically the deeper the discount they get you the better cut they get. Hopefully BD will weigh in on this buy soon.

So we have to hope that the prices start low? Seems like a strange business model to me, since allegedly they are passing that additional tier savings back to us? Since when is imsto's moq 500? I thought it was 100?

Cheers,

I mean, they aren't taking a huge cut off the top b/c that would be detrimental to their business model (a Group Buy). They take a small percentage per transaction IIRC and it only increases if they get a really deep discount (example a $1000 car part for 1/10th of that). This is all TMK, so hopefully BD will answer further questions.

As for IMSTO's keys, check this out http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31861.0

Quote
MOQ: 300 sets, currently at: 205 paid sets.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Sun, 11 November 2012, 16:22:33
I've been following this project with great interest from almost the beginning and have been impressed with the contributions made by several people to make this thing happen. I've also been impressed by how long the process takes when it's all done by volunteers whose interest is divided by also having to make a living.

Would it help if someone was willing to put money up front to have the pcb's manufactured?  It seems that there wouldn't be too great a risk to order 50 or so pairs of boards. At $40 per pair that would only be $2000. This would allow the less patient to get started sooner at volume buy pricing and I don't think it would hurt the other aspects of the development.

I could fund the initial order but have no knowledge or time to distribute the orders.

If this can help the process let me know.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Tue, 13 November 2012, 04:18:33
I've been following this project with great interest from almost the beginning and have been impressed with the contributions made by several people to make this thing happen. I've also been impressed by how long the process takes when it's all done by volunteers whose interest is divided by also having to make a living.

Would it help if someone was willing to put money up front to have the pcb's manufactured?  It seems that there wouldn't be too great a risk to order 50 or so pairs of boards. At $40 per pair that would only be $2000. This would allow the less patient to get started sooner at volume buy pricing and I don't think it would hurt the other aspects of the development.

I could fund the initial order but have no knowledge or time to distribute the orders.

If this can help the process let me know.

The major part of the discussion about the keyboard has migrated to deskthority while geekhack was down:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html

Currently, the PCBs are still being finalized, and there is discussion about how exactly the group buy is going to happen (only PCB or all bits included). The problem is that the cases are not yet final, and that dox, being the driving force behind the project, seems to be busy with his real life. :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheGrey on Thu, 15 November 2012, 12:32:36
I'm really interested in this. Is there any idea of when its likely to be ready?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Thu, 15 November 2012, 13:39:22
I guess, there is a number of people, who are quietly tracking the topic and just waiting for the buy to happen. Like me :)
So put me to the list if there is any!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 15 November 2012, 13:45:08
I am coordinating with Massdrop to construct a poll so that we can gauge actionable interest from all you quiet trackers. I'll reply when that's ready to go so everyone can head over there and declare their interest, and which parts they want; this will help them determine price breaks.

I'll post back when that part is ready!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Sun, 18 November 2012, 13:30:19
The amount of interest in this keyboard makes me wonder if this thing can be taken beyond a group buy.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 18 November 2012, 18:42:07
The amount of interest in this keyboard makes me wonder if this thing can be taken beyond a group buy.

The answer is [IMO]: most likely. I have no qualms that dox could have done a kickstarter on this and started a small business around it. That being said, the designs will be made open source, so that possibility is still open.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 18 November 2012, 19:22:55
*trolling* Hi OJ!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mjtorn on Sun, 25 November 2012, 08:20:52
I already expressed my interest on Deskthority but maybe I'll do that here as well. Bring it on!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Octane on Sun, 25 November 2012, 10:06:47
I have never tried an ergo keyboard but am definitely interested in this. I might also pick one up for my wife, who has carpal tunnel and has had an operation on one of her hands already - other hand pending... Good work guys !!!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheGrey on Sat, 01 December 2012, 05:23:48
btw please count me in for the preassembled group buy list....also if ergodox could provide a wee update as to how thinks are going...like can this be coming before Crissssmass!?   :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 01 December 2012, 19:52:27
Ooo.. Nope, no getting this by Christmas, sorry.. Lol. We're getting there though. Everything's done, except I think we're probably waiting in case options. Then we'll be waiting on massdrop to get the polling done, then the group buy. Then we'll be waiting for parts to ship (which might take a second for the PCBs, and maybe other parts depending on what you want). And then the people who want assembly will be waiting for that. Dunno enough to give better estimates of time right now, but that's how I'm understanding things at the moment - just to post a rough idea - :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheGrey on Tue, 04 December 2012, 07:51:20
update much appreciated ic07 ! ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 04 December 2012, 18:40:02
I've been pretty silent with this for a while, and I apologize--I'm working with Massdrop on getting the polls set up, but I want to get all the bases covered before I start shopping links around to direct everyone there. They had a good prototype poll set up, but it was missing a crucial option for PCB + Case. Once it's up with all the major ordering options I'll hit the thread with links.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 05 December 2012, 09:06:06
Hey all! I heard back from Massdrop yesterday, and they have the poll set up for us (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-full-or-partial). Please drop by and let them know what you'd like out of the Ergodox, be it the full kit, the PCB alone, or the PCB + Case, etc. This will help them work out price break information.

Thanks!

Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:10:01
What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?

What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 05 December 2012, 10:26:29
What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?

What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?

They've made a separate poll for the case type (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-case). I don't believe this will be a winner-take-all thing, but rather just for them to gauge who wants what so they can shop the orders accordingly. I believe everyone is getting what they want in this case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Wed, 05 December 2012, 17:40:29
Voted.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Leandros on Fri, 07 December 2012, 06:54:03
Voted, too.

Also I'am interested in buying one.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: engicoder on Fri, 07 December 2012, 08:10:07
Anyone else having trouble with the Massdrop site. It annoying pops up a sign in doesn't seem to allow me to sign up. Clicking the signup button does nothing. I don't use Facebook, so that is not an option. There is no way to contact them for help as the signup popup has no such links.

Solved: You can ignore the popup and click "login" in the upper right corner of the page even though it is greyed out...that will take you to a page with a "Signup" link on it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 07 December 2012, 09:59:05
What's the difference between "1. Full Kit" and "6. Full kit + Cases + PCBs"? Is it about assembling?

What kind of case we are voting for atm: aluminium, acryllic, smth else? Or is it still TBD?

They've made a separate poll for the case type (http://www.massdrop.com/poll/ergo-dox-case). I don't believe this will be a winner-take-all thing, but rather just for them to gauge who wants what so they can shop the orders accordingly. I believe everyone is getting what they want in this case.

The case poll is now really skewed. I'd say it looks about tied between the two if you added all the Dox-Style cases together (maybe small advantage to litster style).

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 07 December 2012, 10:27:25
I actually asked them to clean up the options on the case poll, since it's unclear whether litster votes are voting for the built-in wrist rest shape, or the acrylic plate design rather than 3d printed case (since litster cases were originally shaped like dox cases). Basically the options available are 3d printed (flat, slant, tent+slant) or acrylic (with/without wrist rest) but the poll doesn't reflect that yet.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 07 December 2012, 12:18:50
Does anyone know what could be the price difference between 3D-print vs acrylic case? At least some very rough numbers.
If the difference is actually not that big, then I would vote for 3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll)  - personally don't like transparent cases.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 07 December 2012, 12:28:03
Acrylic can be painted inside or out for interesting effects.  It's the gloss that kills it, personally.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 07 December 2012, 12:45:48
Does anyone know what could be the price difference between 3D-print vs acrylic case? At least some very rough numbers.
If the difference is actually not that big, then I would vote for 3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll)  - personally don't like transparent cases.

There are acrylics with absolutely solid colours.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 07 December 2012, 15:50:02
3D-printed with wrist support (which is currently missing in the poll)

It's not a simple combination of features: the project started with case designs that had no wrist rests, and then Litster (while experimenting with acrylic plates) opted to create the wrist rest extension. There are no 3d printing designs that include wrist rests that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 07 December 2012, 16:37:33
It's not a simple combination of features: the project started with case designs that had no wrist rests, and then Litster (while experimenting with acrylic plates) opted to create the wrist rest extension. There are no 3d printing designs that include wrist rests that I'm aware of.

I suspected that this is the case.
But it shouldn't be hard to change the designs for whose who have drawn it in the first place, is it? After all Litster was also cutting it with a machine, so he already has some 3D model. Or is it 2D for the laser cnc? Though together with the wrist rests it gets bigger and thus may not fit that easily into 3D printer.

Anyway I'm actually ok if the acrylic will be cheaper to make and hopefully it will be not transparent.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 12 December 2012, 09:59:50
Hey all--I heard back from the Massdrop guys again today. Right now, it's looking like the Ergodox buy will be ready to go in January, and will probably run for about a month.

Also, because 3D printing doesn't scale well Massdrop will be offering only litster-style cases, although they will offer it with and without the wrist rest. Those that have their hearts set on the dox-style case can go PCB-only for the buy and order one up on their own since the total cost to the buyer would be the same either way.

Finally, I brought the criticism to them concerning their registration wall, and while they sympathized (after all, it's something people don't like), they need to keep it in place to continue doing business with their suppliers, who from what I can tell essentially demand it. However, since there's no brand to keep happy with Ergodox, they've offered to try to make the Ergodox buy public and freely browsable, as a gesture of goodwill.

Hopefully this type of public implementation could be extended to other group buys in the future, for products that aren't simple retail goods (e.g. caps)? Those are my thoughts though, not their suggestion.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 12 December 2012, 15:53:06
So I'm guessing no one is planning a group buy in the U.S.?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheGrey on Wed, 12 December 2012, 16:24:47
voted!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 12 December 2012, 19:40:09
Man how the hell did i miss this, there was even a sticky in the ergonomics section and i still missed it.

I feel like such a noob reading this thread and section of geekhack! I would love to assemble something myself but i usually break something and i am horrible at soldering given my hand tremors.

I've only been able to get through some of the recent pages of this but it seems that getting a assembled version of this in the US would be a bit expensive and just may not be possible at all, correct me if i am wrong....I'm actually unsure how this works i am a complete noob when i comes to this part of geek-hack.

But damn i want one of these really bad, especially after seeing the photos, I kind of miss split design now; i had a Kinesis Freestyle for almost 3 years but i always thought the layout wasn't good and obviously cheap switches that didn't survive my jackhammer touch.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 13 December 2012, 08:19:07
So I'm guessing no one is planning a group buy in the U.S.?

By all means, anyone is free to do so; but practically speaking it hasn't happened, no.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 13 December 2012, 09:14:59
So I'm guessing no one is planning a group buy in the U.S.?

MassDrop will ship to U.S. if it's used.........

cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 13 December 2012, 09:25:36
I meant other than massdrop
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Susan1430 on Thu, 13 December 2012, 09:57:26
Bf is interested. He'd probably prefer to give money to someone to handle the assembly than put it together himself.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: islisis on Thu, 13 December 2012, 11:46:29
This board should be _the_ ergonomic board for the masses... extended thumb keys, flat easy to manufacture pcb, even fittable on a notebook, trackpoint version in the works... ...PATENT FREE... I can only dream ;)
Keep up the great work guys, I do hope this is the future, however far it may be!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 15 December 2012, 23:54:13
Sort of bumping my slightly incoherent drunk post above with a more coherent post

If this interest check is still active/stands I am absolutely interested in either an assembled one directly or paying someone  in the USA to assemble a kit  for me with brown switches or at least partially assemble it and i attempt to complete the assembly with the correct parts.

Other interest (not requirement) is a built in or add on 10-20 degree lateral slope and accompanying wrist rest similar to kinesis freestyle http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/freestyle_vip_insert.pdf

I am hesitant to state how much i am willing to pay, i know its not cheap, but I WANT to own this.


Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sun, 16 December 2012, 19:43:09
It would be really great if all the cables would be detachable (mini usb to the computer, and between the parts of the keyboard). I imagine only connecting the one handed part would be great for gaming.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:35:35
It would be really great if all the cables would be detachable (mini usb to the computer, and between the parts of the keyboard). I imagine only connecting the one handed part would be great for gaming.

Can't, the controller is in the right side
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 16 December 2012, 20:57:38
Can't, the controller is in the right side

If you're a lefty, that's pretty perfect :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 16 December 2012, 22:46:29
It's not completely impossible to move the controller to the left hand side. The Teensy is simple enough to mount inverted. The USB connector is connected through wires which makes it easy to correct for mounting upside down. Bending all the legs of the expander IC over backwards makes it possible to mount it upside down, just like the Teensy. Depending on the case It may also be possible to just put the switches on the "wrong" side.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Mon, 17 December 2012, 15:06:44
It's not completely impossible to move the controller to the left hand side. The Teensy is simple enough to mount inverted. The USB connector is connected through wires which makes it easy to correct for mounting upside down. Bending all the legs of the expander IC over backwards makes it possible to mount it upside down, just like the Teensy. Depending on the case It may also be possible to just put the switches on the "wrong" side.

Sounds like a hastle. Since the connectors are in the front I guess it's enough to simply move the right one out of the way, but I wonder if there is ever any reason to just keep the right one connected unless you are a left hand mouse kind of person ( I am left handed but still use the mouse on the right hand).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 17 December 2012, 16:22:32
It's not much of a hassle, you only need to bend the expander legs backwards, and perhaps think a bit to get everything hooked up correctly. Everything else fits just fine.

This of course also makes it possible to use the ErgoDox as either a left or right hand only keyboard.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 21 December 2012, 01:45:55
Quote from: litster
there are 4 holes where you could screw in legs like the ones you get with KMACs.

I brought the idea of adding KMAC legs to Massdrop, and they're interested in adding them to the buy; in fact given the scarcity/difficulty of obtaining korean boards, they're planning on a sourcing trip to Korea. I personally don't know where to direct him, but if anyone's got a name or a number I'll certainly pass it along; otherwise I guess I just point him to kbdmania. In any case, the bottom line is that if we can put Massdrop in contact with a supplier, they'll try.

Quote from: litster
What i want to know is how they do quality control with a project like this.

The plan is still that they'll be sending the parts either to individual buyers, or at the buyer's discretion, a designated assembler from the volunteer list collected ages ago. Therefore, in terms of QA, they can't really do anything more than visually inspect the parts on the way through (specifically the cases). I'm sure the guys doing the assembly will give them love they deserve though.

Massdrop emphasized however that they don't want to sound like they'd leave anyone out in the cold--they urge anyone somehow ending up with a bad product to contact them either via email or live chat on their site.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Tue, 25 December 2012, 21:33:08
Hey guys,
I'm totally new to the scene and here on geekhack.org, but I'm really interested in this keyboard.
I was always looking for a keyboard like this to relieve my RSI - and also because it looks cool! :D
If this means that I have to assemble it myself - nice new hobby, right? :)

Unfortunately, I somehow cannot access deskthority.net. (No idea if it's due to the fact that I'm in Japan or maybe some misconfiguration on my employers side. I will try later at home.)
So I'm very thankful for the few but informative updates here!

Anyway, I voted on the massdrop.com poll. As far as I understand, they will start the group buy in January and ship to every country, right?
 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 26 December 2012, 09:48:37
Anyway, I voted on the massdrop.com poll. As far as I understand, they will start the group buy in January and ship to every country, right?

I believe that's correct!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 09 January 2013, 11:45:12
Massdrop has posted up a blog entry about the Ergodox (http://www.massdrop.com/blog/post/40081950857/ergodox-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard). Some highlights:


They've also blogged about their terms of service, and improvements they are making to it (http://www.massdrop.com/blog/post/40050860453/changes-to-our-terms-of-service). Worth a look!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 12:21:25
oh man oh man oh man

with this, the phantom, and the GH60; My mind and wallet just exploded.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 09 January 2013, 12:23:35
They better not run the keyset in ABS and QWERTY!

I vote for custom blank PBT set from IMSTO!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:25:56
https://www.massdrop.com/vote/ergodox-keycap

Vote for blank PBTs in the poll!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:34:56
damn. i want an assembled one!!!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:36:14
There are tons of people who offer assembly services
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:46:53
if i am reading this correctly the key caps will be a separate group buy?

$$$$
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:53:08
There are tons of people who offer assembly services

I established with them very early on that you'd be able to ship to an alternate location, so if you have a assembler who will build for you, you should be able to have your equipment sent to him/her instead. However, I believe that's up to us to organize.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 09 January 2013, 13:54:12
if i am reading this correctly the key caps will be a separate group buy?

$$$$

That is correct, go vote in the poll!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:02:25
if i am reading this correctly the key caps will be a separate group buy?

$$$$

That is correct, go vote in the poll!

I already voted for qwerty when it popped up  :-[ sorry....
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:03:23
oh snap you can change votes
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 09 January 2013, 14:40:25
There are tons of people who offer assembly services

That is true, but no place to look them up directly. Might be a good idea to get an IC going, the number of people who may want assembled could overwhelm a single individual.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:02:09
There are tons of people who offer assembly services

That is true, but no place to look them up directly. Might be a good idea to get an IC going, the number of people who may want assembled could overwhelm a single individual.

Indeed, you also have to factor in that the Phantom and GH60 assembly services are being planned as well right now with the Phantom services starting sign ups any day now. There will be a queue for assembly services AND parts.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:30:26
There are yet more people that do assembly that aren't working on Phantom/GH60.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 15:38:57
There are yet more people that do assembly that aren't working on Phantom/GH60.

i know, i'm just saying its something to consider, Prof was originally offering services for the ErgoDox.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 09 January 2013, 19:48:25
Omg, it's here!!  ;D

I have some questions though about the group buy text:
Quote
With the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.

What do they mean by that? As far as I understand the cases available are flat and not slanted, right?

They also say there will be the choice between full hand and classic case.
Full hand case means the one with hand rest?
Which do you think is the more ergonomic choice?


Another question I couldn't find the answer for:
How high (in cm) is the case? On the pictures it looks quite high which might be not really ergonomical.

And last, but not least:
I'm a total switch noob. I only know that I dislike switches that need a lot of force to push.
So I guess maybe the blue switches would be the right choice?

I appreciate your help!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 20:36:24
Omg, it's here!!  ;D

I have some questions though about the group buy text:
Quote
With the screw based case construction you can experiment with different slants to find what position works best for you. In addition to slant customization, you can also fully customize the keyboard layout and reprogram the teensy board (uses Arduino software) to make the keys trigger whatever functions you desire.

What do they mean by that? As far as I understand the cases available are flat and not slanted, right?

They also say there will be the choice between full hand and classic case.
Full hand case means the one with hand rest?
Which do you think is the more ergonomic choice?


Another question I couldn't find the answer for:
How high (in cm) is the case? On the pictures it looks quite high which might be not really ergonomical.

And last, but not least:
I'm a total switch noob. I only know that I dislike switches that need a lot of force to push.
So I guess maybe the blue switches would be the right choice?

I appreciate your help!

1. I do not think they will offer a slant bottom in the group buy but the design could allow for a different bottom with a slant to be made. at least thats how i see it

2. Full hand would be a wrist rest, Is it ergonomic? although i have had plenty people tell me having a wrist rest is not ergonomic but if you look at the other split ergo boards like the kinesis and truly ergonomic they have a rest, i think its a matter of what you are comfortable with; you also have to decide if you think it looks good with that rest  :)), which i don't; ill use my own.

3. That is a good question, they didn't go with the design on ergodox.org, it looks like its the Litster design, so i don't think this information has been made available, maybe the DT thread has something about it

4. i'm a little bit surprised they are not offering browns as part of the group buy, blues are clicky, if you are OK with clicky that is the lighter switch. I'm going to get clears and swap out the springs with a lighter red or brown spring to make "ergo clears". If you are having someone assemble this for you most likely they will offer services for modifying the switches or ordering new switches altogether like browns, greens, and reds.

-----

Man we got to get the word out about this, there seemed to be a lot of interest in this and then it faded it looks like, maybe add something to the subject and OP. I would love to get this cheaper. I know there is some people that don't like massdrop though; ill rolling the dice.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 09 January 2013, 20:58:47
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:00:31
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.

ah ok
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:06:02
Thanks for your input.
I also hope we can get some more people to commit. 199$ would be nice! 

After having read your comment about the switches, I read a bit more and it seems that browns might be good for me.
Damn it, why don't they offer them! :)

I confirmed with Massdrop via live chat:
The case is 2.54cm high!
For me, that creates a too steep angle for my wrist joint, so I definitely need a hand rest / the hand rest case.

The live chat guy (Will) said he was writing on the keyboard while chatting with me and had the one with hand rest. Apparently he's still getting used to it and blamed his typos on that. ;)
But he says it feels very natural and is really ergonomical. (With hand rest.)

Also, they are checking about compatibility/availability with the MX browns, and if possible they will update the buy. Apparently it is possible to change your order any time until the countdown is over!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:18:23
1" high is about as tight as you can make it with a layer-cake acrylic case design.  Only way to get it shorter is swapping a layer w/ metal such as aluminum and that'll only get you a little over 1/8"
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:22:56
Ah okay, I see. I didn't know that! :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:31:44
Yeah if we can get this down to $199, I'll probably get two, one blues and one clears.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:36:31
The buy has opened.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 21:55:21
so I'm guessing we are not able to purchase an extra set of pcb's?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 09 January 2013, 22:05:29
so I'm guessing we are not able to purchase an extra set of pcb's?


Look to DT for a parts buy, Doesn't look like Massdrop will be selling anything less than a complete kit.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 22:10:47
Yeah, I'll probably end up doing both group buys
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 09 January 2013, 22:30:54
Yeah, I'll probably end up doing both group buys
Is there already another group buy running?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 09 January 2013, 22:32:10
no, that's why I'm still participating in the massdrop. Not sure how long it will take before someone steps up and starts another group buy
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Thu, 10 January 2013, 00:08:37
looks like this is live on that massdrop site...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: reverkiller on Thu, 10 January 2013, 00:42:33
looks like this is live on that massdrop site...

It seems it is.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Thu, 10 January 2013, 00:48:51
Going to place 2 x commit to buy.
They seem to be organised, good response via online chat, Cheap shipping to Non-US (especially Asia country) and fairly customisation for people like me who looking for complete set.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 01:22:48
The option to purchase one or more extra PCB has just been added! (30$ for each)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Thu, 10 January 2013, 04:38:18
PCB price is now $22.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 10 January 2013, 07:10:42
Given how quickly they have reacted to feedback, I'm actually impressed by Massdrop thus far. They put together an assembly guide with photos, have added more customization at every turn when it's asked (pcb only or no switches), and finally changed its TOS (even if slightly).

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Thu, 10 January 2013, 09:12:07
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 10:00:42
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?

I've found reds are hard to find. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Thu, 10 January 2013, 10:07:40
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?

I've found reds are hard to find.

My 1st post. Greetings to all @ GH. :) Base on mouser for mx switches. Reds are on backorder till march. Browns are supposely having shortages elsewhere. With demands there are bound to be shortages i guess.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sherryton on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:25:05
i really want red switches... why aren't they available?

I've found reds are hard to find.

My 1st post. Greetings to all @ GH. :) Base on mouser for mx switches. Reds are on backorder till march. Browns are supposely having shortages elsewhere. With demands there are bound to be shortages i guess.

Welcome to GeekHack L!athus!  I hope you will enjoy this place.  I heard mx switches are backordered because of the recent orders.  Hopefully, 2013-2014 will be okay.  I hear Cherry does not have the machinery to fulfill all the orders :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:29:47
Did I read this correctly at the bottom of the link, a sweet price of $199 shipped for a complete kit ?

http://www.massdrop.com/blog/post/40081950857/ergodox-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:40:41
As long as we can get everyone who was interested to buy
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:45:47
get the word out lol, 199 would be nice.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:47:24
Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:50:59
There's a link somewhere. I read it last night. I just don't see a video posted yet
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Thu, 10 January 2013, 11:55:27
Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:03:36
Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?

the instructions are here

https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php

Oddly i think they took down the link to this page, maybe they are making revisions
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:06:46
Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.

Oh... that's a good idea... thanks!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:07:53
Asked them a few questions about it on the massdrop chat and if I like the responses I think i'll be down for one. Want to see the build guide first though because where they've put 'Here is a link to our instruction manual', I don't see a link?

The link was in the blog.

https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:16:08
Thanks sherryton. Getting comfortable as we speak. ;D

For US, its great with freeship. Though shipping to the rest of the world @20 is attractive too. If price could get even lower will be a plus.  :D Getting the 100+ commitments is the only hurdle to get that price. 18 days left to hit that target. Last i login it still stands @ 2 commited.

IMO a complete kit isn't complete if its still missing keycaps.  :)) Just thought that it would have been nice if, at least, those 1.5s were included as an option for the kit.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:25:48
I think we'll make it no problem. there is all kinds of crazy interest in this, especially once we spread the word.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:36:08
I hope those who were interested buy it, There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 10 January 2013, 12:36:20
I'm going to be confirming 1 kit (maybe 2) today.  Glad to see this.

Now to decide if I want an aluminum/acrylic and full/classic cases. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:02:13
Well I commited to buy from massdrop, just want the board, and this seems the simplest way to go about it. I'll probably just end up selling the switches from it and using my abundant vintage blacks for it.

In my email to MD, and i believed others on DT or GH here as well, have express my interest in a kit possible option to go without switches. I have just recieved an email reply. Now they have added an option to go "switch-less". Its -$44 off the final price if you choose to go with that option, if i understand correctly. Just check up on their site. The option is available under switches now.

And for those outside of US interested in the buy but can't find your country under "country" just email your request to them. They will be added asap for you to procceed with it.

About switches, MD expressed in the mail that they have a hard time sourcing well priced reds and browns. I'm not sure why but they will be running a seperate GB for brown switch only along with ergodox.

Thats all the answers i got from MD. Hope its helpful info for any.

I glad that they are prompt @ addressing issues so far adding more options of customising your order.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:02:59
There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.

DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop, or really towards progress of any kind. If I were acting in my own self-interest and not the best interest of the buy, I would have stopped posting there long ago and updated only here.

But hey, if there is a single person monitoring only the DT thread that ends up buying in, I guess it was worth it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:07:58
I'm going to hold off for a couple of days to see if they offer a case-less option...  If not then I'll think obliquely...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:18:40
@asura:
Email or LiveChat MassDrop and ask about the option.  They may decide to add it to the order form.  They've been responding/adding options today as they get suggestions.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:22:16
Have done already, only reply I've had so far was a standard marketing blurb about the ErgoDox.

Worst comes to the worst I can get someone to get an extra set of PCBs and post them out to me then sort out teensy, diodes, etcetera myself.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:31:33
There was a lot of interest on DT as well it seems, but there is major hate towards mass-drop there.

DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop, or really towards progress of any kind. If I were acting in my own self-interest and not the best interest of the buy, I would have stopped posting there long ago and updated only here.

But hey, if there is a single person monitoring only the DT thread that ends up buying in, I guess it was worth it.

Like it, go get it. Dislike it, just walk away.  :))

I would probably go with the kit w/o switches. Looking to build it with reds.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 13:35:13
Have done already, only reply I've had so far was a standard marketing blurb about the ErgoDox.

Worst comes to the worst I can get someone to get an extra set of PCBs and post them out to me then sort out teensy, diodes, etcetera myself.

Yeah, I just talked to Will and he basically said that at the moment there is no way to purchase another full keyboard minus the case. Just the extra pcb's.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 10 January 2013, 14:55:43
Curious - if anyone has ordered already, are you going with or without the wrist rest?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 17:05:58
I will go with a wrist rest when I get one
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 10 January 2013, 17:11:08
I went with no wrist rest, acrylic, black switches. I'm hoping that reds will be added mid-flight, and if not I'll probably get rested as well, just without switches. I can tolerate an extra set of blacks I don't like, but two sets I don't need.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 10 January 2013, 17:23:22
Basically, my line of thinking is that no matter what, I'll have some kind of squishy wrist rest under my hands--the built-in wrist rest basically just determines the height, and whether I have one big one (no rest) or two small ones (rest). Also, one thing to consider is that Ergodox enables you to have your two halves spaced as far apart as you want, so maybe the two-small-pad method is best; in that case the design with the rests is best. it's worth noting that having the pad sitting on the case's built-in rest keeps the pad in place relative to the keyboard, whereas the case without the rest could potentially scoot away from the rest or something.

Food for thought.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Thu, 10 January 2013, 17:25:13
Does the mounting plate allow for easy stem/spring swaps, like Phantom?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Thu, 10 January 2013, 17:34:57
Looking at the pictures in their instructions, I'd say yes.  There are definitely recesses there.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:00:50
Basically, my line of thinking is that no matter what, I'll have some kind of squishy wrist rest under my hands--the built-in wrist rest basically just determines the height, and whether I have one big one (no rest) or two small ones (rest). Also, one thing to consider is that Ergodox enables you to have your two halves spaced as far apart as you want, so maybe the two-small-pad method is best; in that case the design with the rests is best. it's worth noting that having the pad sitting on the case's built-in rest keeps the pad in place relative to the keyboard, whereas the case without the rest could potentially scoot away from the rest or something.

Food for thought.

I think it's best to have two seperate wrist rests/pads. And as you said, if you use seperate wrist rests, they might move around etc. (Of course depending on the wirst rest.)
This is why I will go for the Full hand option, although it looks not as cool.

For those people who want to buy extra PCBs, may I ask why?
Do you use it for backup if you screw up or do you want to make more than one keyboard? If the latter, why? And where do you get the other supplies needed?

And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard  ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:11:17
I would like to have an extra set so I can switch out having blues and browns
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:24:50
I would like to have an extra set so I can switch out having blues and browns

But for this you also need a second case or at least the plate between PCB and switches, right?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:25:53

And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard  ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?

It's possible to change out the stem/spring without desoldering.  There are some threads around here, and you can find videos on youtube. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:26:23
Hmm. Didn't notice there was a plate.. damn lol. I guess I would just get two
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:33:17
I think we'll make it no problem. there is all kinds of crazy interest in this, especially once we spread the word.
I'll be sending out a mass PM to everyone interested.


Have done already, only reply I've had so far was a standard marketing blurb about the ErgoDox.

Worst comes to the worst I can get someone to get an extra set of PCBs and post them out to me then sort out teensy, diodes, etcetera myself.
If you need, I can help you with this.

Hmm. Didn't notice there was a plate.. damn lol. I guess I would just get two
The PCB looks just like the one bpiphany designed, and has holes for PCb or plate-mount switches.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:37:06
Hmm. Didn't notice there was a plate.. damn lol. I guess I would just get two
You can see it in the instructions: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php


And one last noob question: if I want to change the switches later on (because I have no idea which I want, will be my first mechanical keyboard  ;D ), does it mean I need to unsolder all of the switches?

It's possible to change out the stem/spring without desoldering.  There are some threads around here, and you can find videos on youtube. 

Okay, cool, thanks for this very helpful information! So I guess I can go with only one set then. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:45:02
DT is inexplicably toxic towards massdrop

I liked the occasional accusations of being paid by Massdrop. Oh, and being called a corporate apologist.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: StaCT13 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:49:28
Dorkvader,

     The ultimate goal will be that when people get the keyboard, they will have access to our open source UI and firmware, which will allow them to use either the default QWerty / ic07 layout or any other layout of their choice (the software will automatically do any compiling and hardware flashing necessary). The UI will be Windows only, XP and above. If you're running linux, you'll have to manually edit the firmware, compile it, and flash the teensy 2.0 controller manually.

Mouse buttons won't be a part of the software as far as I know. I am not sure how the Teensy would handle this, seems to me it would almost have to register as two pieces of hardware to achieve. As far as we know, at the very least 2 layers will be available to the end users. A default and function layer. If you'd like to know what the default currently is, I point you to the source, or to sit tight until I can make a prototype UI available which will allow the designing of any custom layout of your choice. Let me know if you have any questions as I would be glad to help!

Cheers,

OJ

I don't remember/know if there were any updates to this, but is the GUI still being developed? The Massdrop instructions page only references flashing the firmware using the Teensy Loader Application: I didn't see anything involving the GUI, or there even being a GUI in development. Is it just going to be released after launch?

Thanks for any help, and sorry for any previously answered questions.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: shawn on Thu, 10 January 2013, 19:51:07
apologies for the crosspost on deskauthority, but bisl asked me to do it.  :)

Hey guys, I ordered 2 of the kits from massdrop. I also talked to Weyman @ wasdkeybaords.com (I have no affiliation with wasdkeyboards.com) because I want to get fancy laser etched keycaps with a custom pattern. here is what he said:

Quote
I didn't know Massdrop was going to run this. I put in an order myself today. We can definitely work something out for these kits. Pricing will be higher than a normal set due to the number of 1.5 keys needed. When we order in normal 104 key sets, so one of these sets would use up 6 sets worth of 1.5 keys. If there's some interest from at least several people, I can put together a new layout file for everyone to use specifically for the ErgoDox. For pricing, we would be looking at around $80 per set.


Do you need custom pattern laser etched keycaps? No. Will it make a cool keyboard cooler? Yes.. Yes it will. 

Pretty awesome that Weyman ordered a keybaord as well. hehe.

can't wait.

I ordered both with 'full hand' (wrist rest).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:24:36
@StaCT13 If you can get the source compiling okay, you could always edit the layouts directly in source. It's meticulous but straight-forward once you wrap your head around it. Here's an example of the default QWERTY layer: https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c#L27-45
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:25:37
Maybe we should do some more promotion.. put it on reddit or something ^^
I want to reach the 199$!!  ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:34:57
What's the count at, or is it not published?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:37:59
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:39:07
What's the count at, or is it not published?
Currently at 18, the count is on the massdrop 'site
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox (need to log in, I believe)

Everyone interested should be Pm'd. Please Pm me back if you want to be taken off the list, Also Pm me if you want to be added to it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:45:42
got your pm DV! Although I'm already committed to buy!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:46:36
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.

So I assume that if Sold+Committed = 100 then it rolls over to $199?  (ie. you could have 25 sold, and 74 committed, and as soon as there is one more commited, it becomes 100 sold?)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:48:20
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.

So I assume that if Sold+Committed = 100 then it rolls over to $199?  (ie. you could have 25 sold, and 74 committed, and as soon as there is one more commited, it becomes 100 sold?)

Not sure, but I assume the same.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kmiller8 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:48:27
So I assume that if Sold+Committed = 100 then it rolls over to $199?  (ie. you could have 25 sold, and 74 committed, and as soon as there is one more commited, it becomes 100 sold?)

yep, that's how the commitment button works on massdrop.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:51:09
Not sure if it matters but I didn't receive a PM
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 10 January 2013, 20:57:55
got your pm DV! Although I'm already committed to buy!

Yep, I added everyone, even if they already posted their commitment. Just trying to be thorough.

Not sure if it matters but I didn't receive a PM
Thanks, I'll look into it. Yours should have gone out in the first batch. I'll send you one personally, so you can see what it looks like.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:00:17
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.

Even though there are 17 days left, I find myself hitting f5 a lot...  it's now 20 sold...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:09:20
18 sold, 11 buyers committed to buy if it reaches a certain price point and 59 people watching.
We need 100 sold to get to the 199$ price point.

Even though there are 17 days left, I find myself hitting f5 a lot...  it's now 20 sold...

Lol, same here. I'm really excited about this!! :D
Now 23 sold btw. Keep up the pace!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:16:40
Thanks, I'll look into it. Yours should have gone out in the first batch. I'll send you one personally, so you can see what it looks like.

Thanks. Both actually just showed up in my inbox. lol.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:17:00
The PM said this PCB supports PCB-mounted switches. Do the MX switches need to be PCB-mounted, or are you saying (dorkvader) either works?

I am likely going to opt for third-party source of switches due to the mediocre switch offerings.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:21:10
Switches are priced in the GB at about $0.50 each, unfortunately not enough to do a 1:1 swap for the aluminum case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:24:09
I would highly recommend PCB mount even with the acrylic plate, however they are not strictly necessary.  I also do not know what MD is supplying.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:39:15
I would highly recommend PCB mount even with the acrylic plate, however they are not strictly necessary.  I also do not know what MD is supplying.

It doesn't say whether they are pcb or plate mount, but from what  i've seen in the photos (https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php) the examples that they have shown appear to be PCB mount switches. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 21:43:04
Btw guys, if I would want to add a second keyboard but with different options (other case, other switches, etc), I need to buy it again, right? Because if I update the quantity in my history, the options are the same for every keyboard.
That would add shipping costs again. (Germany)
Guess I will ask them! Thinking about getting a second kit with the other case.
That way I can compare what suits me best, and the assembled keyboard with the case I don't want to keep somebody will probably buy I guess.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 10 January 2013, 22:17:41
I'm sure you will be able to find a buyer wasabah.  I'm leaning towards two kits so I can have one at work and one at home.  I'm still debating if I want the full-hand or the standard cases, though.

I wish they'd put up a image for the aluminum case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Thu, 10 January 2013, 22:27:27
I'm sure you will be able to find a buyer wasabah.  I'm leaning towards two kits so I can have one at work and one at home.  I'm still debating if I want the full-hand or the standard cases, though.

I wish they'd put up a image for the aluminum case.
Work&Home: good idea.. damn! :D
I'm also interested in the aluminium case. Especially with the hand rest, I think the feel might be nicer then the acrylic.
If it looks cool I'll get one. They want to put up a picture in the next days.

Edit: and we got 25 buyers! :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 11 January 2013, 02:13:01
It doesn't say whether they are pcb or plate mount, but from what  i've seen in the photos (https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php) the examples that they have shown appear to be PCB mount switches.

https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T1930.jpg
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: laffindude on Fri, 11 January 2013, 02:54:16
You can count me in for another but not counted in the page yet, I am waiting for a friend to reply to see if he wants one.

Aiming for an aluminum full hand.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 05:20:02
It have a slope if you look at the side picture but it was easier to only model some flat spherical keycaps. Final keycap shape is not determined yet and my be left to the user.

Yes the headers are for connecting the 2 halves.

WTF.  THis is really making me mad  >:D

I have been really interested in the Ergodox forever and ever!

But I never, ever, ever clicked on this thread because the thread title does not say anything about ERGODOX  so WHY would I click on this thread?!  GRRR.

I would really love flat spherical keycaps or flat cylindrical, or all keycaps have a small slant.  If having a slant, then the front of the keycap should be a little higher than the back.  I know this works perfectly because I have a rubberdome keyboard with keycaps like that.  They are awesome!  (The keycaps, not the rubberdomes).

If all keycaps have same profile then the user may switch his keycaps around into any position they like any time they like.  For example they could swap things around to try out COLEMAK or DVORAK layout.  Or maybe just swap 2 keys with each other.

Having all keys be the same profile is Awesome.

Having all rows of keys be a different profile is rude and nonsensical.

I wish this was available in red switches.

Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

If it works on PS/2 and has red switches then I will buy 2 or 3 of them depending on how much it will cost me to pay someone to assemble it for me.  I absolutely cannot assemble it myself. 

I don't mind spending the bucks to get 3 of them if the keyboard will do what I need it to do.  Plus that way when the guy I hire to assemble them screws up my keyboard and gives it braindamage then I still have 2 left that will work out  ;D

For me, keyboarding is not a hobby, its a way of life.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 07:06:18
Switches are priced in the GB at about $0.50 each, unfortunately not enough to do a 1:1 swap for the aluminum case.

Could you post a link to the source(s)? Would be nice to learn where I could get Browns cheaper than from WASD.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Fri, 11 January 2013, 07:25:24
It doesn't say whether they are pcb or plate mount, but from what  i've seen in the photos (https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php) the examples that they have shown appear to be PCB mount switches.

https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T1930.jpg

I know there's a plate there, but I thought I saw the pins in one of the pictures where it showed the bottom of the assembled keyboard... I zoomed it in some more (https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T2121.jpg) and I guess you're right, it looks like they're not PCB mount.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: danielucf on Fri, 11 January 2013, 07:31:56
So ErgoDox needs to be in the title, and the link to massdrop should probably be in a group buy page, in the group buy section. If you want your numbers to grow, post this where people will see it (buying sections of the forum). I'm in for one, and am going to send the info out to friends just in case they are interested.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 11 January 2013, 08:30:13
TC - no PS/2.

danielucf - it's posted in great finds...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 11 January 2013, 09:16:46

I have been really interested in the Ergodox forever and ever!

But I never, ever, ever clicked on this thread because the thread title does not say anything about ERGODOX  so WHY would I click on this thread?!  GRRR.

This thread started before the ErgoDox name was decided   :)

Quote
I would really love flat spherical keycaps or flat cylindrical, or all keycaps have a small slant.
...
Having all keys be the same profile is Awesome.

The keyboard comes without keycaps, so you can easily buy a set of keycaps all in the same profile, for example from WASD Keyboards, and use them.

Quote
I wish this was available in red switches.

If they don't offer them, you can buy the keyboard without switches, and buy the switches elsewhere.

Quote
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

Don't know, but for me, as long as I'm using a computer that accepts USB keyboard input in the BIOS (which all computers do for the last 10 years) then I'm sticking with USB. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Doltoid on Fri, 11 January 2013, 09:31:23
It doesn't look like the case massdrop is using will allow the controller to be relocated to the left hand section. Is this just my faulty brain or is this true?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 11 January 2013, 09:39:46
Believe that is the case.  I remember reading before that everything was created with the intention of the controller on the right half.  May be able to get away with it on the left with a little hardware DIY/hacking.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 11 January 2013, 10:08:31
I see no real reason to put the controller on the left side if you are not building a left hand only keyboard. And I didn't have a good look at the case either right now. But if it is layered wouldn't you be able to simply flip each layer upside down before putting them together to mirror the design?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 10:21:24
I see no real reason to put the controller on the left side if you are not building a left hand only keyboard. And I didn't have a good look at the case either right now. But if it is layered wouldn't you be able to simply flip each layer upside down before putting them together to mirror the design?

You would have to flip Teensy and other stuff also.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 11 January 2013, 10:42:31
Actually, flipping the Teensy is the easy part... You'd also need to put all the wires for the USB connector in the correct places, and make sure the communication between the halves ends up correct, and worst of all bend the IO-expander over backwards =P
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 11 January 2013, 11:00:52
Hmmmm, debating if I want to try the mod when I get my ErgoDox.  I'm interested in a left-hand only keyboard.  Just not sure if I'm up for the work/modding.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 11:34:33
I assume that if you solder it as it is (teensy on right side), flip it over, and remap all the keys, you can have teensy on the left.  But the thick teensy is now on the bottom of the PCB and my case design does not account for that, especially all the cutout areas.  I am sure it is doable if changes are made to the CAD files.  But seems a lot of work for one special edge case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 11 January 2013, 12:30:54
The Teensy can simply be soldered in, on top, upside down on the "wrong" side (if you get to choose which side of the Teensy the pins are that is). This in all effects "mirrors" it.

To do the same with the IO-expander you need to bend all the legs over backwards. This is probably not recommended by people who "know" about these things, but it should work =)

After that you just need to figure the rest out. Everything else is only 2 pin components and mirror symmetric by nature =D

Litster, wouldn't the right hand case be possible to assemble with all parts upside down to create a left hand case that would support a mirror of the right hand side electrics?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 12:39:18
Yes, you could do it, if you also mirror all the components on the right hand side to the left hand side. I.e. Teeny on left hand side and on the top of PCB, IO expander on right hand side and on top of PCB.  The only layer you would need to swap is to move the right hand side mounting plate to left and vis versa.  other layers stay where they are. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 11 January 2013, 12:54:55
Hey litster, do you have your E-Dox case files posted somewhere? http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/5705699
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: damorgue on Fri, 11 January 2013, 13:02:47
Hey litster, do you have your E-Dox case files posted somewhere? http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/5705699

Those look like copies which they have made by themselves based on switch locations. They don't seem to have the tabs required to make allow the switches to be opened while mounted in the plate.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 11 January 2013, 13:03:58
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 13:26:18
Yes, unlike my other design, this is has been released for the public.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-720.html#p85587

I would not be surprised if the one on kbdmania is done based on my original design files.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 11 January 2013, 13:43:00
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D

Smalls ygpm.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 11 January 2013, 15:31:23
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard.  Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know.  Passthrough adaptors (what the cheap ones usually are) almost certainly won't.  I haven't tested either.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 11 January 2013, 15:38:57
Also, if anyone was interested in removing the right hand side without any modding, and didn't mind an extra altoids can on their desk, I don't think it'd be hard to put a Teensy in one, having the USB come out one end, and the I2C TRRS jack come out the other.  I think all you'd have to do inside is 1) insulate the unused contacts (obviously), and 2) wire in the resistors to pull up the I2C lines...  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 11 January 2013, 16:43:00
Finally got my order placed, bringing us up to 29 orders.  I'm still hoping we get red switches added to the GB (..and those aluminum case pics).
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 11 January 2013, 16:57:22
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D

Smalls ygpm.

Cheers,
OJ ygpm.

Cheers,  :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:01:49
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D

Smalls ygpm.

Cheers,
OJ ygpm.

Cheers,  :))

You guys making your own acrylic cases?
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:19:30
Ah. Well at least we know the other forums are excited about the E-Dox too! :D

Smalls ygpm.

Cheers,
OJ ygpm.

Cheers,  :))

You guys making your own acrylic cases?
No sir, he was just asking me to build his board(s). :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:46:31
Will this keyboard work with a PS/2 adapter?

The USB code is from PJRC for now, and conforms to the keyboard USB Boot Spec - i.e. the computer sees it as a regular, normal USB keyboard.  Real PS/2 adaptors should work, as far as I know.
Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?

Ppl keep talking about them but its like the Loch Ness Monster, everyone "knows" they exist but there is no proof.

I have already wasted many hours looking and I found lots and lots and lots of cheap adaptors to adapt a PS/2 keyboard to work on USB.  They are really cheap.  But trying to adapt a USB keyboard that is hostile to PS/2 seems like it is impossible. I am not saying it is electrically impossible, just saying that AFAICT nobody sells such adaptors.  Either they never existed or they sold out long ago.


Quote
  Passthrough adaptors (what the cheap ones usually are) almost certainly won't.  I haven't tested either.
I was already told they won't work.

When the teensy controller gets upgraded to work on both USB and PS/2 like the controller in WASD, Rosewill, Filco, etc. etc. ad nauseum then I will happily buy 3 Ergodox and pay someone to put them together for me.

I might buy a 4th one to give to one of my friends who have hand pain.

Thanx  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 17:56:30
I looked at a pic of the Ergodox and saw no FN key.  Where is the FN key?

How does one generate the keycodes of the Function keys?

Can all other ANSI standard keycodes (the standard keys available since at least 1985 or before) be generated?

Or is this keyboard like the new Matias, CoolerMaster, etc. etc. etc. (lots of companies have been banishing keys) keyboards where certain standard keycodes are impossible to generate?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 11 January 2013, 18:08:09
I looked at a pic of the Ergodox and saw no FN key.  Where is the FN key?

How does one generate the keycodes of the Function keys?

Can all other ANSI standard keycodes (the standard keys available since at least 1985 or before) be generated?

Or is this keyboard like the new Matias, CoolerMaster, etc. etc. etc. (lots of companies have been banishing keys) keyboards where certain standard keycodes are impossible to generate?

(https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/product-images/massdrop-product-ergodoxlayout.png)

Is the layout massdrop gives instructions to use for qwerty

It only appears to show the first layer however visually

correct me if im wrong guys but it is BASED ON but doesnt 100% mirror the kinesis layout

(http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/qwerty.gif)

Remember that you are not limited to the layout in the default

github has a ergodox area

https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware

if you dive deeper this may answer your question

https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c

see layer 1, the picture i gave above is layer 0

edit: i should mention that modifying the layout and creating new firmware is not exactly drag and drop, however if you have any trouble the geek hack community is here to help :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 11 January 2013, 18:57:30
Thanks Glod :) .  Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things.  The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source).  Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference.  Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware#downloading-binaries)).

[attachurl=1]

@TC:
Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ .  I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that.  Guess I can't be much help :/ .
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 11 January 2013, 19:15:16
Thanks Glod :) .  Ya, it's based on the Kinesis layout, but I did change a few things.  The function layer is based on that of the Arensito layout (though, I failed to mention that in the current version of the source).  Here's a prettier picture of all the layers, just for reference.  Similar things for all the currently compiled layouts can be found in the .zip files for the binaries (follow the link in the readme, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware#downloading-binaries)).

(Attachment Link)

@TC:
Lol, nope, no proof... and a quick search didn't turn up anything either, sorry :/ .  I have no idea what the other keyboards you mention are using to make themselves work on both USB and PS/2, so I dunno what to tell you about that.  Guess I can't be much help :/ .

oh wow that file rocks, why could i not find this anywhere lol

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:36:29

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?


How about the famous blue cube (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-Keyboard-To-USB-Adapter/dp/B000BSJFJS/) adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YWRCC1F7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:46:30
Ok so to press a function key on ErgoDox I must:
1. Press a key to change the layer.
2. Press whichever Function key I want.
3. Press a key to the layer back.

Correct?



Basically it appears the ErgoDox is like a flat Kinesis Advantage with the function keys chopped off and the PS/2 connectivity removed.

I never understood why the Kinesis Advantage forces ppl to use that  keywell design.  It is great for ppl who want that.  And the price is totally reasonable.  But I have never craved, desired or wanted my keys in a keywell.  I also absolutely do not want my wrist resting on that high point of the Kinesis Advantage keyboard.  I would have certainly already bought a Kinesis Advantage if it was available in a flat version.

Does ergodox have footpedal support?

When I designed my ultimate dream keyboard in 2003 I put the shift keys down in the thumb area of Ergodox.  And I left them in the original positions too.  This greatly eases the transition of learning to use thumbs to shift.  The trouble is that if I do that I lose 2 other extremely valuable keys.

In my design there were at least 12 keys in the middle of keyboard which could be assigned as whatever instead of the 6 of ergodox.   For example Enter and Backspace could go into the middle area, leaving 2 keys available in thumb area for 2 shift keys.  Just an example.  I am not saying that ergodox positioning of enter or backspace are bad at all.  I am just saying that an Ergonomic keyboard needs some flexibility to it so that ppl like me who crave thumb-shifting can be 100% satisfied.

For ppl who develop hand pain it is a common complaint that the pinky fingers get overused.   Having to shift with my pinky fingers all the time hurts me.  That is why I want to have the option of shifting with my thumbs.

Sadly there are no "spare" keys on the keyboard to allow easy ergonomical reassignment of keys.  Even though there is a lot of room for extra keys in the middle.

Is there some simple solution I have overlooked that would allow me to have 4 shift keys?  The original 2 + 2 for the thumbs?  Without destroying the layout in some other way?

Keeping in mind that shifting and spacebar must be dead ez to actuate in all circumstances.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 20:59:05

Do u have any proof that these "real PS/2 adaptors" actually exist and where could I buy one?


How about the famous blue cube (http://www.amazon.com/PS2-Keyboard-To-USB-Adapter/dp/B000BSJFJS/) adaptor? Works great with both my Model M and Kinesis Classic.

Show Image
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21YWRCC1F7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


You are saying exactly what I have been saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again for 10 years.

You can easily connect a PS/2 keyboard to ANY computer using a simple cheap adapter.

But you cannot connect a USB-only keyboard like Ergodox to a PS/2 computer.

So if you are only going to support one standard in your keyboard controller it only makes sense to support PS/2.  Because as you showed, your blue cube adapter will allow it to connect to a computer that has its PS/2 ports amputated.

Of course, supporting both adds zero to the manufacturing costs so there is no reason not to support both.  You downloaded your free opensource USB controller software and you can download some free opensource PS/2 controller software too.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 11 January 2013, 21:39:21
We need the option to have an FN key be momentary (as opposed to toggle), or have 2 FN keys, one momentary, the other act like a toggle.

Regarding extra shift keys, I'm in the same boat. I have 4 shift keys in my Kinesis Advantage. I plan to get the ErgoDox with the full hand case, so I can install a pair of palm keys for shift. I think it has some extra positions in the matrix, if not, I will just piggyback wires off the existing shift keys, I've done it before. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579)

Note the arcade buttons in the palm area of my keyboard acting as shifts... I've added 8 keys total, but the palm keys get the most use:

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)

I plan to add the same kind of arcade buttons (Seimitsu PS-15) on this type of case:

(http://i.imgur.com/kTRGM.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:07:39
@TC:

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.  And if you don't like where something is, you can always reassign it anywhere you like.  Please read the documentation, it took a long time to write.

As far as footpedals go, they're entirely possible - but they'd be DIY.

As for PS/2 support:  The USB portion of the code is from PJRC.  I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job).  I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2.  The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ).  Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one.  It's quite a bit insulting.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 11 January 2013, 22:48:22
@TC:

There are both layer shift and layer lock keys on the default QWERTY layout.
Ok good to know :)


Quote
As for PS/2 support:  The USB portion of the code is from PJRC.  I haven't had time to rewrite it myself (though, I think the original author did a pretty good job).  I know of one or two other libraries I could have used, but they looked harder to work with, and none of them supported PS/2.  The rest of the code I wrote myself, in my free time, for free (and fun :) ).  Please don't ever tell a developer that (to paraphrase) they downloaded their free open source code, and they really should go downloaded a different one.  It's quite a bit insulting.
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Fri, 11 January 2013, 23:55:57
Browns are not on offer due to availability, no more than that.

ah ok

If you are looking for a source for PCB-mount MX Browns, The_Ed is selling switches that were harvested from brand-new Cherry boards:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-capslock-bottom-rows-switches-relegendables-t3093.html

Also, 7bit has a date of 01/2013 for the same:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:06:27
Also, 7bit has a date of 01/2013 for the same:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
If I would want to order these for the Ergodox (complementing the Massdrop group buy), which would I need?
PCB mount I guess? How many? 84?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:19:31
Yes you want to order:

MXBROWN/NW 84

Maybe a couple of extras.  He recently switched his pricing to EUR instead of USD, so keep that in mind.  The_Ed is selling his for 50 cents each plus shipping and Paypal fees.  I've bought a bunch from him already for DIY pokers and the like.  They do appear to be new, save for being desoldered.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 12 January 2013, 00:24:46
Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.
However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.
I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sat, 12 January 2013, 01:53:41
Thanks for the fast answer guys! :)
I think then I will order soon and order one more keyboard without switches. Cool! :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 12 January 2013, 02:27:32
can't we just buy a few extra pcbs and construct another Ergo Dox ourselves?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 12 January 2013, 03:04:31
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

Thanks...  I'm sorry too.  I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago.  I should have been more patient :/

Quote
I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) .  And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.  Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly.  This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school...  And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.  In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware.  There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work.  So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.

That being said, if anyone else wants to try, my code is up on github (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) (though the unstable branch is in the middle of somewhat of a rewrite), and I'll do my best to help you out where I can.  I also found this project (http://ps2avr.sourceforge.net), which might be worth checking out.  More searching might turn up something better.

In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Keyboard-Mouse-Adapter-PS22USB/dp/B0055PKVZY) :) .  It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .

As for people willing to do assembly, here's a portion of Dorkvader's mass PM, which was sent out just recently:

Quote
For those interested in a fully assembled product, below are a list of people on GH willing to help. PM and coordinate with them for a quote.

TheProfosist (USA) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=12209)
DorkVader (USA) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=13303)
Geekabit (EU) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=16736)
Dirge (UK) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=16113)
localredhead (?) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=22209)

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sat, 12 January 2013, 03:50:07
I apologize if I did not word things well.  I'm dying.  I'm on hardcore drugz. I am wiped out tired.  My POS Rosewill keyboard keeps flashing lights at me and doing freaky things (like eating my keys or making the alt key get stuck even though I never pressed the Alt key in the first place, etc.)  Its hard for me to concentrate tbh.  I am really sorry.  I didn't mean to be insulting.  :-[

Thanks...  I'm sorry too.  I guess I'm a bit touchy at the moment, probably because of some of the more heated discussions that happened over on DT a little bit ago.  I should have been more patient :/

Quote
I didn't mean u should replace the code you have.  Your code obviously works so no need to change it AFAICT.  I just meant that there surely must be free PS/2 controller code floating around somewhere that could be added in, in addition to the USB code, given that PS/2 has been around for 30 years (or however long, I think PS/2 is actually just a shrunken DIN5 which has been around way longer than 30 years).

I have a vague memory that I saw a PS/2 controller somewhere... it was probably on opencores.org

I will offer you a $200.00 bribe  :)  but u can call it a bounty :) to add PS/2 support to the controller.   I am sorry that I cannot offer more but I don't have an ergodox, and there is no guarantee that I will ever get one, or that   it will really and truly allow me to begin coding again.  Also if I get an Ergodox it might cost a really HUGE amount of money to pay someone to put it together for me.  Nobody has actually offered to put it together for me at any price.  I absolutely cannot ever build one myself.  I can barely sit in a chair and shove the mouse around.  No way I can do anything more complicated than that.  But I can send $$$ with AmazonPay.

Your bribe (*cough* bounty, lol) is very generous :) .  And if it really means that much to you, I'd be very tempted to do it for free, if I could.
It does mean a lot to me and it means a lot to various other ppl out there who are reading this msg but are like I was, they are in READONLY mode and are unable to type due to their hands being trashed. 

The bountybribe offer is good for 1 year.  After that we'll see.  You can ask.  If I can finish my current keyboard building project and my drugz keep working and my doctor doesn't quit and I don't die or have yet another pain attack then I might disappear into my codercave and never be seen on geekhack again.

Quote
Unfortunately, my main problem is that I don't have *time* :/ or enough domain knowledge to do it quickly.  This weekend I have work, the next two weeks I'm visiting my grandparents (who I can't very well neglect, lol), and for most of the next few months after that I'll be back in school...  And as I've never dealt with PS/2 before (or USB, for that matter, which is why I'm still using a library), or many of the Teensy functions a PS/2 library would be using (interrupts and timers come to mind), I don't think my chances of success in any reasonable amount of time would be good.
I was not expecting any progress for at least 3 months.  Long after the group buy is over.  That is why I was saying it may never benefit me in any way.


Quote
  In fact, I had an experience not that long ago trying to integrate code I didn't have time to understand when I tried to get mousekeys into the firmware.  There's a nice library for making the Teensy emulate a mouse, and lots of other people have done it - but I couldn't figure it out at the time, and I still haven't had time to go back and make it work.  So, I'm sorry... but I'm sure you can understand.
Coding alien systems is a batch.  And I don't mean it like a file of script commands  :))

Anywayz no pressure.  If u feel like tackling it u will and if not then I just saved myself $200.00 which is enough for me to get that new Front-printed Filco I have been eyeing :)

Quote
In the meantime, I was able to find an active USB -> PS/2 converter (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Keyboard-Mouse-Adapter-PS22USB/dp/B0055PKVZY) :) .  It's crazy expensive, and it only has one (very bad...) review... but lol, at least it's proof they exist :) .
If it doesn't even work then it doesn't exist. :)

I like how it says my brand new Intel core i5 is a legacy system  :))

I don't really know how the USB protocol messages work but reading some msgs from guys who do know, they said it would be really complicated to make a working active adapter like that.  It is really just better to buy a keyboard that is compatible with USB and PS/2, like Filco, WASD, CoolerMaster, Rosewill, etc.


Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 12 January 2013, 10:47:08
@TC If you have an i5 I bet the computer has USB ports. Why don't you simply use a USB port to connect the ErgoDox?
Why is PS/2 sooooo important that you won't even use a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues if it doesn't support it?  Please educate us here.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:11:15
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sat, 12 January 2013, 12:45:44
Either PCB mount or plate mount would work, the ergodox PCB can accommodate both kinds (which is awesome). PCB mount might be better IMO, since they have a pair of strong plastic pins which go into additional holes of the PCB, making the construction sturdier.
However PCB-mount switches usually cost a bit more.
I think the keyboard has 76 keys, so 80 should be enough to cover any accidents, although I notice the massdrop assembly instructions mention they provide 88.

More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation.  One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc).  This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 12 January 2013, 13:26:08
Anybody else having problems with paypal checkout on massdrop? I get a few different errors, but the main one seems to be "total not set" and it prints the array that's passed by the order page on screen and you can in fact see that the total is 0.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 12 January 2013, 13:43:30
What other payment methods do they have available?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 12 January 2013, 15:08:40
They have credit card as well. At the moment I've got money in my paypal though so was hoping to be able to use that.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sat, 12 January 2013, 15:40:16
There, my order is in. It seems that you have to choose "N/A" on the extra pcb option since two pcb boards are already included in the price.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:22:53
Man, 34 orders plus 12 committed to 199 aint bad for having more than 15 days left, I'm getting it no matter what so i'm pulling out the popcorn and watching this progress until the group buy date closes :)

i had no problems with paypal btw.. they just send a notice that the processing is pending with massdrop and wont be billed until that is over.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: esoomenona on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:28:03
If it gets down to $199 and I can spare the money, I will go in. I'm monitoring it until then.

(http://www.bestmemes.com/pix/83950959.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:30:34
You can always commit to buying it only if it goes down to 199
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:48:32
This is what I keep getting :(

https://www.massdrop.com/php/APIError.php

PayPal API Error

The PayPal API has returned an error!
TIMESTAMP:   2013-01-12T22:47:45Z
ACK:   Failure
VERSION:   65.1
BUILD:   4181146
L_ERRORCODE0:   10400
L_SHORTMESSAGE0:   Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.
L_LONGMESSAGE0:   Order total is missing.
L_SEVERITYCODE0:   Error
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:55:56
^ Have you tried both buy and commit to buy?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sat, 12 January 2013, 16:58:03
Yup, I get the same either way.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 12 January 2013, 17:00:33
Yup, I get the same either way.

So strange, very strange. Maybe try changing your order, which you can always change back after? Order a full set, then remove switches after. Or something of that sort with different options.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 13 January 2013, 02:44:21
More than anything else, the pins give the switch the proper orientation.  One thing I noticed with the Phantom plate was that the switches could rotate slightly, especially the keys that had multiple positions (mods, space, etc).  This is a problem for stabilized keys, especially space, which can't afford any rotation at all.

ErgoDox doesn't use any stabliizers, and the assembly instructions have you mount the keyswitches in the plate before soldering them in place, so they should be locked into proper position when soldered. That said, if you still prefer PCB-pegged keyswitches, you can join the GB sans switches and source your own switches in some other GB or elsewhere.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 13 January 2013, 02:49:44
This is what I keep getting :(

https://www.massdrop.com/php/APIError.php

PayPal API Error

The PayPal API has returned an error!
TIMESTAMP:   2013-01-12T22:47:45Z
ACK:   Failure
VERSION:   65.1
BUILD:   4181146
L_ERRORCODE0:   10400
L_SHORTMESSAGE0:   Transaction refused because of an invalid argument. See additional error messages for details.
L_LONGMESSAGE0:   Order total is missing.
L_SEVERITYCODE0:   Error

Try clearing your cookies, or at least delete cookies for massdrop.com and paypal.com. Also make sure your browser settings aren't blocking third-party cookies; not sure if that's even relevant, but it's something to try.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Sun, 13 January 2013, 04:08:21
Want the PCB only?

"The best way to do this is to have you check out normally and notify one of our live chat reps so they can put a note on the transaction saying to only collect payment for the PCB ($44 shipped to your door).

Let me know what works best for you,

- Will"

They really are bending over backwards.  I'm sure everyone probably checking both posts, but just in case I'll pop it up in the other one too.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Sun, 13 January 2013, 10:02:12
Okay, I think I managed to get in the group buy. I got the paypal confirmation email in any case. Is it suppose to show up in my purchase history, or is that only once the group buy actually completes?

Just curious about whether it should be listed there as people mentioned being able to change your order (i.e. switch type or such) up until the group buy completes, but not sure where that would be done without something in my purchase history to be able to fiddle with.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 13 January 2013, 10:04:10
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sun, 13 January 2013, 11:47:22
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 13 January 2013, 11:49:44
Folks, the debate here is about PS/2. Even if PS/2 is better in some technical aspects, the reality is that it makes no real difference to the user (unless you have 10+ year old computer). So if one has to choose between 2 similar keyboards, one with PS/2 capability is preferable, but with unique keyboards like the ErgoDox it's really not worth to worry about it.
I was hoping TC would explain why lack of PS/2 is a total deal breaker for him.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:05:22
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:12:04
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

I'm thinking about a pair of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Gel-Mouse-Trackball-Wrist-Rest-Black-Leatherette-/370723084235?pt=US_Mouse_Pads_Wrist_Rests&hash=item5650d157cb

Or one big http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-WR314LE-KEYBOARD-WRIST-REST-ERGO-SPLIT-GEL-BLACK-LEATHERETTE-THIN-/300595068203?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fcdcbd2b
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:14:26
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

As far as I know it is.  This is your design, yes?:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/fullhandcase.jpeg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sun, 13 January 2013, 12:27:50
Now that the keyboard is soon in hand, it's time to start looking for a wrist rest for split keyboard. I was think about getting
some soft wrist rest for it. I am kinda hoping it would be possible to get something that would put the weight on the palms
rather than the wrists like with the truly ergonomic keyboard and the kinesis advantage. Maybe two mouse wrist rests will do
the trick? Ideas anyone?

Is my wrist rest case design not available from massdrop?

It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1
to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:07:56

As far as I know it is.  This is your design, yes?:
Show Image
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/fullhandcase.jpeg)


Yes.

(http://i.imgur.com/kTRGM.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:08:48
It is available, but I wanted something soft. I guess I could just add one of these: http://www.amazon.com/GRIFITI-Notebook-Silicone-Reposition-Travelling/dp/B00897D3OQ/ref=pd_sbs_pc_1
to it, but I think that a separate palm rest would be better for me.

You know, I was originally against the wrist rest case design for exactly this reason--the balls of my wrists ("pisiform," I believe) get really sore when typing on a hard surface. So when seeing litster's wrist rest case design, I thought "Not for me! I need a soft rest."

However!

The more I think about it, the more I love that design because you can put a soft rest ON it, which does two things:
1) It provides extra height, which begins to approximate the Kinesis Advantage's keywell design.
2) Since the soft rest will sit on the case itself, this will help keep them positioned at a uniform distance from one another, in comparison to my current filco/kensington setup, which I constantly fiddle with.

That said, I'm getting both designs, so we'll see how it turns out :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 13 January 2013, 13:25:29
a great ergonomic keyboard to help your health issues
this remains to be seen
True, but I find it hard to believe that it won't help.
The Ergodox is not my idea of my dream keyboard.  It simply appears to be less crazy than a Kinesis Advantage and it seems like it is made by ppl who are actually trying to solve a problem.  Since they seem like they are trying I am willing to go ahead and spend the bucks to buy it and pay someone to put it together for me if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Just because I am willing to take a risk on something does not mean it is perfect for me.  It just means I am open minded and willing to give it a try and willing to help the project out.

> How could it possibly not help you?

1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons.  I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace.  This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me.  B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.

> Why can't you just be like me and keep your keyboard on a normal GDMF Desk?!

Because I don't live a life of luxury and decadent pleasure like you.  I am dying of pain.  I can't use a keyboard PERIOD unless a huge number of strict rules are followed.  Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.

Maybe there is some luxurious larger desk than this little thing I am using, that would have infinitely adjustable height like this... but I don't have it and I don't know how much such a thing costs or where to get it.  I just recently gained the ability to do online shopping so there are probably an infinite number of little thingamajigs that u know about that I don't.

Ok so even if I had the most perfect desk in the universe it still doesn't mean an ergodox will work for me because it just looks like the Ergodox intrudes greatly into my mouse space.

> Oh dear God, he's going to quote another rule...

Yes I am :)

Under: Attempting to use a computer
Rule #1. Don't
Rule #2. If you break Rule#1 then you MUST keep the mouse right in front of you.  None of this nonsense keeping the mouse way up on a tall desk out beyond your numeric keypad. 

I have to be hyper ergonomic at all times to even use my computer a little bit.  If I had not come up with all these strict rules of Ergomania then I would not be here on GeekHack.   I wouldn't be alive or I would still be in READONLY mode like I was for years just watching the world go by like a Dolphin, unable to use my hands.

So yes, Ergodox allegedly lets me shift with my thumbs.  That is kewl.  And it is flat unlike Kinesis Advantage.  That is great.  But it consumes large amounts of deskspace.  It uses a grid layout.  I never asked for that and never thought I would like it.  Normal layout is ok for me.

Ergodox also uses a split layout with a really huge split.  The only split keyboard I ever used before hurt me a lot but that is because it was some crappy fake "ergo" rubberdome keyboard with typical way overstiff rubberdomes that required a wildly painful impact in order to register a keypress.  I am just hoping that my pain will be ok with the split and the grid of the ergodox.

I know I can handle a small split.  But the Ergodox split is hugely gigantamongous.  For me, its a risk.

If I stick with the Cherry Red keyboards I have now then I get real Function keys.  I have coding stuff set up on my function keys so I can press a single button to trigger some text.  On Ergodox I hafta press 2 keys. (2x the keys = 2x the pain)  I only get to press a certain number of keys per day before the pain gets to high.  I don't even know how SHIFT+F1 would work... I think to use the temp Layer key would require too much finger gymnastics which would hurt my hand immediately so that leaves using the Layer Switch key (whatever its called) but then I have to 1. Switch layer  2. Press SHIFT+1   3. Switch back to original layer.  So that is 4 keypresses instead of 2.   Some of the macros would no longer really be worth it.

What if shifting with my thumbs doesn't work out for me?  I would like to be able to shift with my fingers in the middle of keyboard.  I need extra keys in the center of the board that are freely definable.  In my dream keyboard there are at least 4 columns of keys in the center of the board.  I have been wanting that since 2003.  But Ergodox has only 2 columns and some of the keys are critically important layer keys and cannot be done away with.

> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works?  Have u tried it?  What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys?  That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy?  This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.

Now you can see why there is only a 50% chance of Ergodox actually helping me.

If I stick to my brand new (complete garbage currently being held together with scotch tape) Rosewill then I at least get my cherry red switches with a beautiful spring under every key that works on PS/2 and I get 12 function keys and a whole entire numeric keypad filled with keys that I can redefine to do special things.  In fact, writing this msg has given me a great idea how to make an ergo keyboard out of a normal keyboard without having to pay someone thousands of $$$ to build my dream keyboard!  Wow!  Thank u Sordna for harassing me into writing this!  ;D  My new idea does not replace my dream keyboard but it might possibly maybe be "barely good enough" for me to squeak by with.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:34:22
if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Why is it an issue for you that it needs to be PS2? Need more than 6KRO? Legacy pass-through devices, or using it on an old system?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:35:43
Don't ask man... Don't ask.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:51:40
TC, i think you should have brought that and other posts into a separate thread. This thread is here for the interest, development, testing, and construction of the ErgoDox. Over the last year, feedback and interest was fielded by talented individuals that collectively made the final product. I have nothing but respect for the people involved in the Phantom, GH60, and ErgoDox projects.

This project's development is open source; you have had the honor of been given resources directly from the team and if you acquire a ErgoDox you are free to do and share whatever you want to do with it.

If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.

If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.

The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.

I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me, you have insulted ic07, and i am 100% sure you have insulted other members of geekhack and the ergodox project with your last few posts in this thread.

Please keep this thread about the interest, construction, and testing of the ErgoDox. It is located in the "making stuff together!" area for a reason. Do not post threads that will discourage new/existing geekhack members of participating in these discussions. Please create new threads related to your arguments and field interest from others that share your views.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 13 January 2013, 15:58:00
/snip

No offense man, but for someone dying of typing-related pain, you sure type a lot in here.

Your criticisms are noteworthy, but this design is beyond finalized; rather than picking apart the ErgoDox, it might be time to start conceiving an ErgoChaos offshoot in a different thread. The Ergodox is a great advancement, but it wasn't tailor-made for you and you shouldn't treat it as such. I don't mean to shut you down, but your posts here are proving unproductive.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:11:41

1. The thumb buttons are built into the hand buttons.  I never asked for that and don't exactly want it due to this makes the keyboard as a whole take up a huge amount of deskspace.  This means the keyboard either: A) Won't work for me.  B) Will work for me but it will always be hanging off the edge of my lapmat or the edge of my rollerdesk and eventually will fall off and break.


Your definition of huge is a bit weird. The roller board can handle a 15' laptop right, by my estimate it should also fit the keyboard although someone that actually have the dimensions
of the keyboard must confirm this.

Rule #13 The keyboard shall not be any higher than neccessary or extreme arm pain shall cause paralysis or death.

It would probably be cheaper to just buy an adjustable desk, for example this one: http://www.amazon.com/Safco-1925CY-Adjustable-Workstation-Laminate/dp/B001MS70T8/ref=sr_1_9?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1358113226&sr=1-9&keywords=height+adjustable+desk

Rule #2. If you break Rule#1 then you MUST keep the mouse right in front of you.  None of this nonsense keeping the mouse way up on a tall desk out beyond your numeric keypad. 

You could have the mouse between the parts of the keyboard if you want...

How do you know it actually works?  Have u tried it?  What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys?  That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.
The board is built with a teensy microcontroller. If there is a bug in the software you can replace the software since the source is available. Looking at the source, it should be possible to change the layer keys. If there actually is a bug the rest of us would want to know about it and fix it.
If there is a problem with the teensy then 1) you might be eligable for a refund, and 2) they cost 16$.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:13:44
if someone will fix the USB/PS/2 issue.

Why is it an issue for you that it needs to be PS2?
Because PS/2 keyboards work on everything.
USB keyboards do not work on everything.

And as a free added bonus PS/2 is better than USB 1.1

Quote
Need more than 6KRO?
It is a very nice feature.  And I respect nice features.   It says to me "This keyboard is WORTH the $800.00 you paid for it".   But whatever.

Quote
Legacy pass-through devices,
Yes.  This is required.

Quote
or using it on an old system?
Yes.  This is required.


Why is it an issue for you that you need the PS/2 broken?

Why can't u let me have my PS/2 and be happy?

Rosewill is one of the worst keyboard companies around and they let me have PS/2.  Why not u?

I have a gazillion computers and they all have PS/2 ports.  All my KVM switches have PS/2 ports.  They all work.  I have never had a PS/2 port fail yet.

If I take my USB 1.1 ergodox to the factory to use it on the robots, oh wait I CAN'T use it because it won't work on PS/2 so forget that idea.  That means I have just spent months training my hands to use Ergodox for nothing because I still have to keep switching back and forth from 1 keyboard to another.

Part of Ergonomics is training your muscle memory to be really good with the keyboard you are using.  If I keep randomly switching between 11 different keyboards I will never get any good at any of them.  Pick something good, stick with it and get good at it.

Remember I am not like you.  I can't play keyboard games all day long.  I am crippled with pain.  I get a limited amount of keystrokes.  When I first start to learn Ergodox layout it is going to hurt a lot.  Why would I invest in learning a keyboard that doesn't actually work on millions of PS/2 devices?

I am trying to reduce my pain, not increase it.  That means pick the best keyboard I can get and learn that one keyboard and use that ONE keyboard on everything all the time until something better comes along.


Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:22:47
I asked you nicely above to not do this here again and you punched me in the stomach instead.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:24:18
> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works?  Have u tried it?  What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys?  That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy?  This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.
From looking at the code, as far as I can tell, they define every key function from a matrix, and then assign them to their proper positions. This means that every key is arbitrarily assigned, generally speaking it should mean that if it works at all, it will work other ways, too. The function key position is not hardcoded, because no key is hardcoded. Even on my access-IS keyboards, you can arbitrarily assign the function keys. When I get my ErgoDOX, I fully plan on testing out some interesting custom layouts. Moving the function layer-swap key is a useful thing that I'm certain I'll try. I also want to play with a layout with my most-used Function keys on it without the need for pressing a fn key to get them. This is one of the many good parts about a programmable keyboard.

And even if not, one of the best parts about open-source projects is that people can see what's there and fix bugs when they arise and are reported. This is pretty useful, especially if you offer bounties.

Also, why PS2? I don't think it has it now, but there is certainly a possibility of making this NKRO over USB, like what my soarer adapter does with my model F. I recognize it's good to have your preference, but I'm interested to know the reason.

---
Also about active USB to PS2 adapters, you may be able to use a KVM box for that. I don't have one, but it seems feasible. One reason they're so expensive is dealing with
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:53:09
If you want to be critical of the ErgoDox and split keyboard designs, i wouldn't suggest doing that here, i would create a new thread doing so.
I am not trying to be critical of the ErgoDox.
I was just answering questions that ppl keep repeatedly bombing me with.  Sordna asked me multiple times about the PS/2 thing in multiple different threads for example and then some other guys did too.  So I finally answered.

Don't think of it as some sort of crucifixion of ErgoDox in my previous msgs.

Think of it as me explaining that I really actually want to try an ErgoDox but I am in a specific situation and I answered ppl's questions to the best of my ability to explain this and that and the other.

If a mod wants to transfer the question that was asked of me and my "critical" response into a separate thread because some rule got broken or whatever then that is ok with me as long as the new thread maintains a logical coherency.

I am sorry that you feel I have polluted your thread.  But when I refuse to answer ppl's interrogations they get mad at me and say I am being evasive.
This has happened to me over and over again on GH.

Then when I answer they get mad at me and accuse me of insulting them or whatever thing they get mad about.

I just can't win.  :(


Quote
If you want to be critical of keyboards that do not support PS/2 such as Topre and others then also create a thread doing so instead of doing that in a unrelated thread. Creating a new thread is easy and there are multiple forums with different categories to create threads in. You are likely to get more accomplished in a new thread about your concerns than in posts you drop in on.
I will take that under consideration.

But I have a question: What are u going to do when the next person comes along who says "I am interested in an Ergodox but _____" ?
Are you going to give this same speech to every person?
Or is it something personal against me?  Or ?


Quote
The MassDrop GB seems to be a success, and people who are new to geekhack who were brought here by interest in the ErgoDox are going to see your posts in here and feel less inclined to participate altogether. This is exactly what happened lately in the Deskthority.net thread; things were very constructive in the thread and then it went to hell and actually caused people to loose interest in the ErgoDox the way i see it; thankfully DorkVader came to action.

I am not trying to "troll" you and get you worked up but you have insulted me,
I think you have misunderstood something.  I like u and would not insult u.
You have a Mark VII Glue Gun (+12 vs. Rosewills)  ;D

Quote
you have insulted ic07,
GRRR

I insulted ic07?!?

I offered him $200.00 to add PS/2 support to ErgoDox even though this will likely never benefit me.... I am just throwing $200.00 into the project and now u say I am insulting him!???

 :'(   >:D   >:D

Do you officially work for the Ergodox project?


Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Sun, 13 January 2013, 16:55:39
Well TC, if you have legit needs for PS/2 then that's just fine. But the stock ErgoDox is not for you then!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:03:07
I asked you nicely above to not do this here again and you punched me in the stomach instead.
Do u understand that you guys all type like 40x faster than me?

When I post a msg it will typically say something like "There have been 8 new posts" or whatever.  The big msg that you are complaining about the most I think took me like 2.4 hours iirc.

Just to be clear,
1. You are saying I am not allowed to answer other ppl's questions in this thread.
2. I am not allowed to request any improvements.

Is that correct?

I will try to follow your rules.

Peace out
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:22:00
TotalChaos, OBVIOUSLY, this is not the keyboard you are looking for.  This keyboard is not designed for you.  So stop telling us how this keyboard doesn't work for you.  We all know that it doesn't work for you and you have special needs.  You can keeping typing your manifesto here in this thread till your hands die out and ErgoDox still wouldn't change into a keyboard that works for you and your PS/2-only hardware. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:24:16
I asked you nicely above to not do this here again and you punched me in the stomach instead.
Do u understand that you guys all type like 40x faster than me?

When I post a msg it will typically say something like "There have been 8 new posts" or whatever.  The big msg that you are complaining about the most I think took me like 2.4 hours iirc.

Just to be clear,
1. You are saying I am not allowed to answer other ppl's questions in this thread.
2. I am not allowed to request any improvements.

Is that correct?

I will try to follow your rules.

Peace out

You're being antagonistic at best right now Mr. TotalChaos. I strongly urge you to reconsider what other posters are saying:
1) Changing design for the keyboard isn't going to happen. This project is open source, if you want to build a different keyboard using this one, then you are more than welcome to do so.
2) As the design is final and the board is being produced, this thread is not the correct place for posting critiques. We have an entire forum for that, and are only requesting you not use this particular thread.
3) You haven't answered anyone's questions as far as I can tell, especially as to why you even need PS/2 support.

And to answer your points
1) You are welcome to answer other people's questions in this thread; not be argumentative or disjoint, which is what every post since the first has appeared to be from my perspective.
2) You are more than welcome to request improvements. But make a new thread to do so. This thread is all about the current eDox, not the next generation. You are being asked to respect that and not threadcrap.

Cheers,

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:27:38
3) You haven't answered anyone's questions as far as I can tell, especially as to why you even need PS/2 support.
I'm pretty sure he made it clear he desires legacy support via PS/2.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:29:34
> Dude, you can like totally redefine the layer keys to be shift keys.

How do you know it actually works?  Have u tried it?  What if there is a bug in the controller software so that you can redefine any key you want except the layer keys?  That is exactly the kind of bug/limitation I would expect.

If I could redefine the layer keys to be elsewhere, which other keys would I destroy?  This is why a keyboard needs a few extra keys on it so you don't get jammed up just because you want some extra shift keys.

You see, switching to Ergodox is a risk.  EDIT: I meant a risk to _me_ because I need to shift with fingers other than my pinkies.  I didn't mean it is a risk to anybody else.  And I didn't mean "Risk" as in "Rosewill Risk" as in "complete failure" I just meant "it might not work out for _me_".

From looking at the code, as far as I can tell, they define every key function from a matrix, and then assign them to their proper positions. This means that every key is arbitrarily assigned, generally speaking it should mean that if it works at all, it will work other ways, too.
 The function key position is not hardcoded, because no key is hardcoded.
Ok that is good to know.  I am certain that if there are any bugs they will get fixed...

Quote
Also, why PS2?
You know perfectly good and well that Glod is going to ban me if I answer you so why are u still asking me ?

I could explain with other words/examples whatever but I can't.  Its against some rules or regulations or somesuch.

Quote
I don't think it has it now, but there is certainly a possibility of making this NKRO over USB, like what my soarer adapter does with my model F. I recognize it's good to have your preference, but I'm interested to know the reason.
Is the Teensy controller using USB2 or USB3?

If the controller is using USB1.1 as most do, then there is no 100% way of doing NKRO over USB.  It won't work.  It has never worked.  It might work on certain Operating Systems but then it will definitely not work on others.

You can't do NKRO over USB1.1 in a way that is universal.


Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:37:52
3) You haven't answered anyone's questions as far as I can tell, especially as to why you even need PS/2 support.
I'm pretty sure he made it clear he desires legacy support via PS/2.

We know what he wants... we don't know why. But thanks for your fantastically constructive post.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jabar on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:41:31
We know what he wants... we don't know why. But thanks for your fantastically constructive post.
Cheers,
I do what I can. Thanks for crapping on a prospective buyer  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:42:40
Robots!

Quote from: TC
I have a gazillion computers and they all have PS/2 ports.  All my KVM switches have PS/2 ports.  They all work.  I have never had a PS/2 port fail yet.

If I take my USB 1.1 ergodox to the factory to use it on the robots, oh wait I CAN'T use it because it won't work on PS/2 so forget that idea.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:44:42

[stuff]

You can go ahead and Google the Teensy 2.0 controller and find the information you want about which USB protocols it supports.

Glod isn't a moderator or admin and has no Ban privileges.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:51:58
We know what he wants... we don't know why. But thanks for your fantastically constructive post.
Cheers,
I do what I can. Thanks for crapping on a prospective buyer  :cool:

You quote me, and then proceed to restate part of said quote and insinuate I didn't say something I, in fact, did.

You, Sir, began the mudslinging, and I was compelled to respond.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 13 January 2013, 17:57:59
Glod isn't a moderator or admin and has no Ban privileges.

I hope it didn't come off that I was trying to be a moderator. As a fan of this project I was kindly informing TC that he had insulted people and asking to stop threadcrap and gave my argument.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 13 January 2013, 18:08:57
Looks like I missed most of a big argument o_o

@Glod
He was rather rude to me once, but he made a super nice apology for it, and I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it the way it sounded in the first place.  As for anyone else's feelings, I suppose it's not my business...  Still, if it helps: I don't get the impression he's trying to be especially antagonistic, he just doesn't seem to filter his phrasing as carefully as most.  He is from Texas... (lol sorry! I hope that's not waaay too inappropriate a joke.  I'm from SoCal :) for what it's worth, and I have a few really good friends in Texas, so ya).

And now I see antagonism towards him (not calling anyone out, just, in general)... which, as has been noted, it's *really* hard not to respond to.  But if we stop now, we might be good.

Also, I agree that we've gotten a bit OT, and I agree we should prolly stop that too.

@TC
About your offer: thanks again :) .  A lot can happen in a year, so we shall see.  If I do get around to PS/2 support, I'll do my best to look you up.  PS/2 support really *does* belong in the keyboard, and not in some adapter, now that I look at things more carefully.  But, etc., etc., it's just not there (yet?) :)

Edit (about being OT):
And, sorry everyone for my contribution to that :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 13 January 2013, 18:08:58
Glod isn't a moderator or admin and has no Ban privileges.

I hope it didn't come off that I was trying to be a moderator. As a fan of this project I was kindly informing TC that he had insulted people and asking to stop threadcrap and gave my argument.



I hear ya mate, just didn't want him to fear you.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 13 January 2013, 18:51:43
A couple quick responses to various things:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 13 January 2013, 20:00:48
I do what I can. Thanks for crapping on a prospective buyer  :cool:

I wouldn't go that far. He's been quite clear in declaring that ErgoDox doesn't work for him.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 13 January 2013, 20:20:15
And one last note:  The ErgoDox and any other keyboard not explicitly built to support PS/2 with the atmega32u4/32u2 and similar from the same family of chips will not ever support PS/2.  The entire line of chips has USB as part of it's design hard assigned to specific pins that can do nothing else.  In order to allow PS/2 someone would have to use general purpose IO pins and write PS/2 code for the AVR.  This would reduce the number of IO pins for the keyboard matrix, and would require that the keyboard have 2 separate IO connectors on it, one PS/2 one USB.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sun, 13 January 2013, 21:14:43
The controller inside of keyboards that can do dual USB and PS/2 have a special PHY that allows them to do this.  The Teensy just has a normal USB PHY.  So the only way to do it would be like alaric said.  Bit-banging PS/2 would probably work fine, but we'd need to the pins to do it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 13 January 2013, 21:26:24
^

probably how OTD's Aikon controller does it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 14 January 2013, 01:40:43
I'm interested as well, my only concern is the 4 normal sized thumb buttons, those seem a little bit hard to reach. Do you have to move your wrists to get to them? I've got medium-large sized hands btw.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 14 January 2013, 04:56:46
Not the best pictures... but hopefully they can give you some idea :)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eKnlXPosE7c/UPPiRLhEsPI/AAAAAAAAAf4/CvrjiWYG0Vg/s832/IMG_0892.JPG])
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LXHatPkVG8o/UPPiTWFRKoI/AAAAAAAAAgA/b-CxqrBdaWQ/s810/IMG_0893.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VcJGzjwT7Is/UPPiVgTz8JI/AAAAAAAAAgI/eHCZcLtkijM/s810/IMG_0894.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JiuVEUsnAHs/UPPiO8IVJiI/AAAAAAAAAfw/xu-6KyYMngM/s810/IMG_0895.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XZHWeR_thCY/UPPiX1YChaI/AAAAAAAAAgQ/cxcR_ituOn8/s810/IMG_0896.JPG)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 14 January 2013, 05:02:31
Wow, thanks! It's good to see how it looks and positions under the fingers. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 14 January 2013, 07:07:44
Big thanks from me too!! Really puts some perspective as to how big the keyboard is. :)
Now I'm worried though that the hand rest might be too small for my long hands... :S
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 14 January 2013, 07:32:46
Apparently Massdrop just launched a new site layout. No problem with that, but the editing system isn't online yet.. worst timing ever! -.-
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Mon, 14 January 2013, 07:45:49
I have been contemplating whether having clear translucent keycaps would complement or be an overkill towards lister's clear acrylic case. Thx to ic07, I have a much clearer pic of it.  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Mon, 14 January 2013, 08:28:35
How many of each type of keycap does the keyboard require? Is it  59 1x1, 12 x 1.5, and 4 numpad enter keys ? I need an excuse to buy more caps!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Mon, 14 January 2013, 09:55:10
60 1x1, 12 1x1.5 and 4 1x2. The profile of num "+" would be more suited for the thumb keys unless you plan on inverting the orientation of the num enter key for comfort on your thumb.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 14 January 2013, 11:13:38
Just checking--ErgoDox won't support LEDs for backlighting, will it? As in the only switches that support the extra pins needed for the LEDs themselves are the three keys along the inner edge by the index finger? I'm just going by what's visible on photos of the PCBs.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 14 January 2013, 11:16:10
I don't believe it does, bisl.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Mon, 14 January 2013, 12:02:54
no LED backlight support unless you want to hack it in yourself.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 14 January 2013, 13:02:47
no LED backlight support unless you want to hack it in yourself.

No sir, I don't! I'm quite prepared to take what's given to me in this case; I'm just too amateur to know whether it's simply BYO-LED without having to ask :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Mon, 14 January 2013, 14:23:12
X-post from DT:

Just got a reply from Will @ MD when I asked about just a case or just the PCBs:

Quote from: Massdrop
Let me know exactly want then checkout as you would normally. Once you checkout and tell me, I can put a note on that transaction saying what you want and you'll be charged the right amount. The case is $80 by itself and the PCB is $44.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 14 January 2013, 16:45:20
I assume the board will take "normal" sized keycaps, but will the possible future GB's feature slightly angled rows? It would be logical to assume, that ergonomically speaking the keycaps should be looking more towards the middle, I don't know whether this is common practice here. My Das Ultimate has this feature, and it's really comfortable to type on. (please don't be harsh, I really don't know if all keyboards are like this or not)

Just an example pic:
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k221/undarken/G80-3800/Keycaps.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 14 January 2013, 17:46:18
I assume the board will take "normal" sized keycaps, but will the possible future GB's feature slightly angled rows? It would be logical to assume, that ergonomically speaking the keycaps should be looking more towards the middle, I don't know whether this is common practice here. My Das Ultimate has this feature, and it's really comfortable to type on. (please don't be harsh, I really don't know if all keyboards are like this or not)

I'm pretty sure that you can use any keycaps made for Cherry MX Stems, which include all the types in your photo. There are plans to start up another Massdrop buy for keycaps, and these will come from Signature Plastics, almost certainly the DCS family, which have the characteristics you're talking about.

For reference:
(http://keycapsdirect.com/images/faq/FamilyProfilesLG.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 14 January 2013, 21:25:23
The only quirk is to find keys that will look good for the 1.50 high ones. DSA is the only family where that is a complete non-issue.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Mon, 14 January 2013, 23:11:42
Another benefit to the non-sculpted keys is with legends, one set covers multiple layouts.

I thought it would be weird with the DSAs, but I'm quite enjoying them.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 00:17:17
ic07 or anyone, has the option to reverse the direction of the diodes on the PCB been verified, to allow switches with built-in diodes to be used?
From the pictures it looks like these switches will be ok for the right hand side, but their diodes will be the wrong way around on the left hand side.
(when you look at these switches opened up, with the diode on the bottom as you look at it, the cathode arrow is pointing to the right).

Do I understand correctly that TEENSY__DRIVE__xxx only applies to the right PCB and MCP23018__DRIVE__xxx to the left PCB
and therefore that I need to set MCP23018__DRIVE_ROWS 1 / MCP23018__DRIVE_COLUMNS  0
but leave the other setting to its default (TEENSY__DRIVE_ROWS       0 / TEENSY__DRIVE_COLUMNS    1) in order to use these switches?

I noticed in the code comments (ergodox/options.h) that you don't have a switch to test, but you can actually simulate it by soldering a diode the other way around on the left PCB :-)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 15 January 2013, 02:09:21
You're quite correct about the settings.

And... *sigh* I really should test... lol - I suppose I should have a while ago, but I didn't think of it, and it would be rather difficult at the moment.  Hopefully I don't have to eat my words, but if you look at the code (in src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/*.c) you'll notice that everything those four macros effects is fairly short, and very symmetrical.  I'd be really surprised if setting diode direction one way worked and setting it the other way didn't, for either hand.

That said, if changing that setting does break something (and you're sure you have the board together right - please be sure) then feel free to let me know in as many simultaneous ways as you wish, and I shall fix it ASAP.

Of course, there's a chance that another prototype tester has tried, and I just don't know about it.  If anyone has, please let us know :) .
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 02:34:37
Well, if nobody has tried it, I guess I will, when I buy the kit that is... I'm the one who suggested (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg546288#msg546288) to have the PCB support switches with built-in diodes :-)
Are the LED's affected by the diode setting in any way? Or would I always keep their cathodes going into the square solder point ?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 15 January 2013, 02:57:31
:)

The LEDs are not effected by that setting at all. In fact, flipping them wouldn't require any change to the firmware - it would be a (small) hardware mod.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Tue, 15 January 2013, 03:04:36
Look at the original concept photo from dox. It seem like they keycaps are DSA?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/mikelanding/isofront.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 15 January 2013, 04:00:37
IIRC, dox said that he went with the spherical caps just for the render. However, I've been typing on the DSA cap set for 4 weeks and it's been just fine.

Pictures of my Ergodox (http://imgur.com/a/meXhi).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 15 January 2013, 04:05:19
I will be starting a GB for assembling ErgoDox's later today so if you interested keep you eyes posted prices will be similar to my phantom GB.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 15 January 2013, 04:28:10
I will be starting a GB for assembling ErgoDox's later today so if you interested keep you eyes posted prices will be similar to my phantom GB.

you sure like to keep yourself busy don't ya?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 15 January 2013, 04:29:54
I will be starting a GB for assembling ErgoDox's later today so if you interested keep you eyes posted prices will be similar to my phantom GB.

you sure like to keep yourself busy don't ya?
yep also people pmd me directly about this already so i though id just make it available to everyone right away
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 15 January 2013, 07:34:03
Are the LED's affected by the diode setting in any way? Or would I always keep their cathodes going into the square solder point ?

The LEDs would be a bit tricky to reverse.. They are connected to the ground plane on the cathode side. I wouldn't undertake the mission to change that =)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Tue, 15 January 2013, 08:36:05
I will be starting a GB for assembling ErgoDox's later today so if you interested keep you eyes posted prices will be similar to my phantom GB.

you sure like to keep yourself busy don't ya?
He want to devirginate all our Ergodox for himself  :p   :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Tue, 15 January 2013, 10:01:30
how hard is it to assemble this?

is it easy for a first timer to put this together. the instructions look easy.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 15 January 2013, 10:03:36
If you've never soldered I highly recommend not doing it yourself.  I've been through a number of repairs that come from first-timers jumping straight to something they spent real money on.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 10:30:27
Well, if a person is handy, and watches a few youtube videos on the topic, they could solder, but of course they should get a perforated PCB and some resistors from radio shack and practice first.
Most important tip to avoid non-reversible damage: Do not let the iron touch anything for more than 3-4 seconds (or more than 2 seconds when soldering chips), as it's easy to damage a PCB and components by overheating them. Avoid big, high-wattage irons. Also don't put too much solder that could overflow and bridge stuff that isn't meant to be bridged.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 10:36:17
I tried to look, but so far I didn't find a decent soldering tutorial around here. I never did it before, but after some practice I want to assemble my Ergodox myself. Can somebody point me to a good source where I can learn which equipment to buy and how to get into soldering?  :rolleyes:

Thanks!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Tue, 15 January 2013, 10:57:59
This one is pretty good:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 15 January 2013, 11:49:14
My dad gave me a 24-port switch that caught a lightning strike, and I've been tinkering around with it for soldering practice--I'm looking forward to attempting the eDox assembly myself :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 12:16:59
This one is pretty good:

In first 5 minutes - it looks much more than 1 second as is suggested above :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 12:30:24
Ok, I revised my post to higher values :-)
Truth is, it highly depends on the iron. Underpowered irons need a lot of time to heat up the component enough to get the solder flowing, but overpowered ones can easily overheat and damage components. Anyway that video tutorial looks indeed great!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 15 January 2013, 12:48:04
You shouldn't keep the solder molten for than a couple of seconds.  Soldering it together is much less risky than desoldering.  A low power iron on a thick, double-sided PCB can be frustrating because it takes so long for the pad to heat and for the iron to recover.  This means that the overall time that the pad is hot is longer.  As long as you are fast (with practice), a more powerful iron is actually better.  Even a cheap one where you can't control the tip temp can be controlled by limiting contact time and pressure.  Proper cleaning and tinning of the tip is also important.

Best thing is to invest in a decent iron if you are planning to do electronics projects down the road.  It is a worthwhile investment.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 12:53:03
Ok, I revised my post to higher values :-)
Truth is, it highly depends on the iron. Underpowered irons need a lot of time to heat up the component enough to get the solder flowing, but overpowered ones can easily overheat and damage components. Anyway that video tutorial looks indeed great!

:-) yeah, only one problem with tutorial is that it looks so easy... until I have iron in hand and solder everywhere :-)) I'm still thinking if to get one or not. I have iron with temperature control and at least I put together some wires so it wouldn't be my first soldering (although soldering wires is much more easier) but still it looks like big project :) Another fun thing is that I've never have mechanical keyboard in hand. But recently I feel some pain in wrists so I'm looking for something more ergonomic and ergodox looks quite good :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:04:41
Do it, it's a nice skill to have and it will save you lots of money on repairs. You can find decent irons for under $20.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:18:11
The only thing that makes soldering hard is being stressed about how expensive the thing you are soldering is.  Take the time to do a few little things before stepping up to a few hundred dollars worth of impossible to replace Korean PCB ;) 

It also helps to be prepared.  You *will* mess up, have the tools to recover from that.  A solder sucker is a must and there's no point in wasting money on anything less than an Edsyn Soldapullt.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:21:49
You guys scare me and inspire me, all at the same time.  =P
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:25:08
I have already iron - quite good I think; I mean that I think about getting ergodox :) But I'm missing solder sucker, thanks for the tip :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:26:19
Judging from the tutorial videos, the only way you can mess up real bad is if you damage one of the components of the board or the board itself. Everything else solder related can be recovered from with a solder sucker, right? What I'm getting at is, unless you manage to melt your board, you should be fine. (hopefully)

I have melted things that I should not have before... one prime example would be the insert key of my ThinkPad, I wanted to heat it up with a hair dryer to remove the inscription (cause I NEED them to be blank), but I held it too close and it deformed... from that day forward I do not have an insert key on my laptop  ;D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Tue, 15 January 2013, 13:42:30
Judging from the tutorial videos, the only way you can mess up real bad is if you damage one of the components of the board or the board itself. Everything else solder related can be recovered from with a solder sucker, right? What I'm getting at is, unless you manage to melt your board, you should be fine. (hopefully)

I have melted things that I should not have before... one prime example would be the insert key of my ThinkPad, I wanted to heat it up with a hair dryer to remove the inscription (cause I NEED them to be blank), but I held it too close and it deformed... from that day forward I do not have an insert key on my laptop  ;D
Unless you damage the board or the components. The board is more resilient than the components though, and the diodes and resistors are dirt cheap.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 15 January 2013, 14:08:14
Temperature cycling of a pad can cause it to delaminate from the PCB.  That is not cool and takes a good bit of mojo to deal with.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 15 January 2013, 14:54:04
groupbuy and form up for assembly http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39263.0
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:04:32
I'll more than likely be in touch with you for one build, TheProfosist. Think I may take a gamble with my second build, and do it myself.

In other news, we're almost at 50 units sold on MD and the next price tier.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:21:47
ill be getting one soon hopefully that will push it over
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:51:25
In other news, we're almost at 50 units sold on MD and the next price tier.
Unfortunately, it seems impossible to get 50 more buyers in 12 days, so I guess 226$ it is. Plus 65$, if you get the aluminum case.

Am I the only one finding the price tiers weird? 51%, 58%, 60%, 65%...


edit: The massdrop website is a bit confusing, at one place it states that the buy gets to the next drop at 100 buyers (we are currently at 51), but above the commit to join panel it says there are only 38 more people needed.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:53:32
Considering that there are multiple part suppliers involved, not really.  An example scenario:  1 break is from PCBs, next break is from case manuf., next break from both.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 15:56:52
Considering that there are multiple part suppliers involved, not really.  An example scenario:  1 break is from PCBs, next break is from case manuf., next break from both.
Aaaaah, I get it... it makes more sense now.  ^-^
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:04:59
The massdrop website is a bit confusing, at one place it states that the buy gets to the next drop at 100 buyers (we are currently at 51), but above the commit to join panel it says there are only 38 more people needed.

There are around 12 people "commited to buy" if the price reaches lowest level, i.e. we need 38 more people and then those 12 will be automatically added as normal buyers. Previous UI was showing it as a tooltip for the "Commit to Join" button.
38 is not that big number for 2 more weeks. I suspect many people are still monitoring the forums, but not yet bought, including myself - I will buy 2, but want to see the aluminum case photos first and if there will be brown switches in the end. Don't want to bother with last minute updates of my order. But I guess I will buy this week already anyway.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:07:03

edit: The massdrop website is a bit confusing, at one place it states that the buy gets to the next drop at 100 buyers (we are currently at 51), but above the commit to join panel it says there are only 38 more people needed.

The 38 is because there are (apparently) 11 people that are in the Commit to Join group, which means they will only buy if it hits the $199 pricepoint... so if there are 38 more buyers, then those 11 will automatically be added to the total pool, and it will hit 100, and the $199 price.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:24:22

edit: The massdrop website is a bit confusing, at one place it states that the buy gets to the next drop at 100 buyers (we are currently at 51), but above the commit to join panel it says there are only 38 more people needed.

The 38 is because there are (apparently) 11 people that are in the Commit to Join group, which means they will only buy if it hits the $199 pricepoint... so if there are 38 more buyers, then those 11 will automatically be added to the total pool, and it will hit 100, and the $199 price.
The massdrop website is a bit confusing, at one place it states that the buy gets to the next drop at 100 buyers (we are currently at 51), but above the commit to join panel it says there are only 38 more people needed.

There are around 12 people "commited to buy" if the price reaches lowest level, i.e. we need 38 more people and then those 12 will be automatically added as normal buyers. Previous UI was showing it as a tooltip for the "Commit to Join" button.
38 is not that big number for 2 more weeks. I suspect many people are still monitoring the forums, but not yet bought, including myself - I will buy 2, but want to see the aluminum case photos first and if there will be brown switches in the end. Don't want to bother with last minute updates of my order. But I guess I will buy this week already anyway.

I doubt browns will be added due to the shortage and they aren't slated to become available for another month or so.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:36:07
Thx guys, I forgot about the committed to buy thing. I haven't ordered mine either, because even though they specifically stated that they ship internationally, I can not set the shipping to Hungary...  :(  And I'm waiting for the aluminium case as well.  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:36:32
I know I mentioned this before, but if the shortage of MX browns is holding you back, you can get them from this guy for the same price.  They are desoldered from the brand-new Cherry boards he's been pilfering for key caps:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-capslock-bottom-rows-switches-relegendables-t3093.html (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-capslock-bottom-rows-switches-relegendables-t3093.html)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:40:11
Thx guys, I forgot about the committed to buy thing. I haven't ordered mine either, because even though they specifically stated that they ship internationally, I can not set the shipping to Hungary...  :(  And I'm waiting for the aluminium case as well.  :cool:

Send them an email, I've got Estonia added in 3 days after the second email... They seem to be busy trying to satisfy all our various needs and configurations :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:48:12
Thx guys, I forgot about the committed to buy thing. I haven't ordered mine either, because even though they specifically stated that they ship internationally, I can not set the shipping to Hungary...  :(  And I'm waiting for the aluminium case as well.  :cool:

Send them an email, I've got Estonia added in 3 days after the second email... They seem to be busy trying to satisfy all our various needs and configurations :)
Yeah, I just did too.  ;D

Do we have any info about the aluminium case? Will it be sandblasted, brushed, polished, etc.?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 15 January 2013, 16:57:30
Regarding wrist pads, could get the full-hand version (https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/fullhandcase.jpeg) of the case and stick on a pair of Kinesis palm pads for $12 (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm), or just get a basic foam-backed padded mousepad, cut down to size, and stick on.

As for getting browns, you can buy into the MD GB sans switches (IIRC, that deducts $45 from the kit price) and order your own switches later. Last I looked, 7bit's switch GB (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html) has browns available this month.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:08:54
Last I looked, 7bit's switch GB (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html) has browns available this month.
I started hoping that I could save a dollar or two by ordering the switches themselves from a different place, but it would cost 37.8€ + shipping to get 84 pieces of blues, so I guess I'll stay with the included ones at massdrop.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:13:35
They haven't released much information on the aluminum case.  I got minimal information from live chat.  I may try again later this week, and I'm still waiting/pressing them to put pictures of it.  With or without the PCB - I just want to see what it looks like.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:18:23
ic07 / Dox/ bpiphany:
Would the controller/firmware somehow be able to support a piezo speaker to emit a click sound (like the Kinesis Advantage, and a few other keyboards do) when a key registers ?  If anyone has an idea what mod / extra components might be needed, let me know... I like the audible feedback, but if not possible I might go with cherry MX blues I guess.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Tue, 15 January 2013, 17:55:19
This is for those who are in Europe and who desperately wants the keyboard and has absolutely no hope to assemble it themselves:

I've shown the ErgoDox instructions to my father and he is ready to help the community with assembling services in Europe. Last 25 years he was working at the local electronics repair shop, i.e. basically spending 6 days a week 8 hours a day with hot iron on his table. Plus last year he was also working at Ericsson factory testing GSM equipment.

The complete build will cost 50 euros and this includes: soldering, flashing with a latest firmware of your choice, testing every key and screwing it all together. So you get fully ready keyboard like from the shop.

The algorithm:

So you pay either 2 or 3 times depending if you choose to use US proxy and if everything gets organized:

Let me know in PM if there is interest.
I think I would need the following details:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 15 January 2013, 18:35:16
If you don't already have spare keycaps or want to cannibalize caps from a used Cherry G80, it looks like the cheapest option for new caps (at least from WASD) would be to get:
The 87-key set will provide (2) 1x1.5 keys and (7) 1x1.25 keys sufficient to cover the ErgoDox's (8 ) 1x1.5 key spots with some slight edge gaps, or you can add (10) Row-3 1x1.5 keys ($1/ea.). The 87-key set includes a cap puller and enough spare F-keys, which have a fairly flat Row-4 profile that the ErgoDox won't use, that can be used to fill in keys as needed. I wonder if WASD would be willing to offer an 87-key labeled set with blank F-keys upon request?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 15 January 2013, 19:12:22
ic07 / Dox/ bpiphany:
Would the controller/firmware somehow be able to support a piezo speaker to emit a click sound (like the Kinesis Advantage, and a few other keyboards do) when a key registers ?  If anyone has an idea what mod / extra components might be needed, let me know... I like the audible feedback, but if not possible I might go with cherry MX blues I guess.

We have at least 3 pins not being used on the Teensy in the current design, and 2 of them have PWM.  I'd probably try pin PC7 (on TCCR4 for PWM), though PD5 or PD4 might be more convenient if you don't need PWM.  And changing main() a bit to run the code to generate a click when a key is pressed shouldn't be hard at all.  Others are probably much more knowledgable as to the hardware setup, and how easy/hard it might be to drive a piezo speaker using a Teensy.

PS: Also, be sure to explicitly set the state of whatever pins you do use - IIRC, the init code in the controller .c files touches all the pins, so it'd be better not to count on them starting in any default state.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 15 January 2013, 19:27:48
If you don't already have spare keycaps or want to cannibalize caps from a used Cherry G80, it looks like the cheapest option for new caps (at least from WASD) would be to get:
  • 87-key set ($37 blank, +$10 labeled)
    and
  • (4) numpad "+" keys ($1/ea.)
    or
  • (2) "+" keys ($1/ea.) and
  • (1) Row-4 1x2.00 key ($1.25)
The 87-key set will provide (2) 1x1.5 keys and (7) 1x1.25 keys sufficient to cover the ErgoDox's (8 ) 1x1.5 key spots with some slight edge gaps, or you can add (10) Row-3 1x1.5 keys ($1/ea.). The 87-key set includes a cap puller and enough spare F-keys, which have a fairly flat Row-4 profile that the ErgoDox won't use, that can be used to fill in keys as needed. I wonder if WASD would be willing to offer an 87-key labeled set with blank F-keys upon request?

What's the ideal set?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 15 January 2013, 21:00:16
I just reached out to MD support, again - let's see if we can get some pictures of an aluminum case...maybe.  I asked about case feet, too.  I know litster mentioned the case was designed with holes on the bottom to accommodate them.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 15 January 2013, 22:26:32
I just reached out to MD support, again - let's see if we can get some pictures of an aluminum case...maybe.  I asked about case feet, too.  I know litster mentioned the case was designed with holes on the bottom to accommodate them.

They're not listed in the parts list, for some reason, but you can actually see them in the parts photo (https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/product-82-g66r.jpeg); they're the little red things next to the screws in the upper right corner.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Tue, 15 January 2013, 23:17:02
I'm really excited that I started frequenting geekhack again a few weeks ago :).  I've lurked on and off for years but just signed up for an account earlier this week.

Anyway, a friend and I are both very interested in trying to put together ergodox 'boards for ourselves.  It's not something either of us has experience with, though, so I'll definitely be looking to the forum for advice on getting keycaps and so on.

Also, I've used a Kinesis Advantage for six years and absolutely love the ability to have multiple keyboard layers and switch between them with a foot pedal.  I see that the firmware that Ben Blazak has put together supports arbitrary keyboard layers, and I think that's fantastic.  I would really love to be able to hook up one (or several) layers to pedals or some other external device.  That should be relatively easy, right?  I mean, a switch is a switch, and it's just a matter of hooking it up somehow?

I'm a technical person as far as software goes (programmer, mostly C++ lately) but I've never really messed around with hardware design or even rewiring anything.  Does anybody have any advice for where to start down this journey?  Is anybody else planning on doing the same?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 15 January 2013, 23:27:57
MD is doing a keycap buy next, or you can piece together a set from WASD as SubGothius wrote. I got mine from the SiP random inventory (http://keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php) at a $1 a piece.

As to the foot switches, there are two unused switch locations on each board under the 2x thumb keys. As you said, a switch is a switch and you could rig something up in those 4 unused locations. The firmware is pretty straight-forward - here is one layer (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c#L28-44). The 0's on L34 and L43 represent the 4 unused locations.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:19:14
ic07 / Dox/ bpiphany:
Would the controller/firmware somehow be able to support a piezo speaker to emit a click sound (like the Kinesis Advantage, and a few other keyboards do) when a key registers ?  If anyone has an idea what mod / extra components might be needed, let me know... I like the audible feedback, but if not possible I might go with cherry MX blues I guess.
I want this feature too!  I have wanted this feature for a century!

I am not sure what a "piezo speaker" is.  But I really want to have a keyboard with a controller that supports audio feedback.  And not just click sound but many different possible click sounds or musical notes!

In computer terms I would say it just needs a DAC and some RAM to store the sound samples.  And some way to transfer to contents of RAM into the DAC.  The normal way of doing that is with DMA.  If DMA is impossible then it would need another CPU to sit around spoonfeeding the DAC at the correct speed.  Having a keyboard that would play the music samples I tell it too would so rox my sox!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:32:24
O.O thats another whole project within it self O.O
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hasu on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:39:32
Every word has its own melody?
I'm curious about whether different tone on each key produces better audible feedback than mono tone. Even if not, it is a fun at least :)

I believe someone already wrote AHK script doing like this somewhere. I'd find and try.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Wed, 16 January 2013, 00:54:49
Every word has its own melody?
I'm curious about whether different tone on each key produces better audible feedback than mono tone. Even if not, it is a fun at least :)

I believe someone already wrote AHK script doing like this somewhere. I'd find and try.
I agree its fun!  I want each successive char to play the next note of  "Jingle Bells" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" or "Mary had a Little Lamb" or "Like a Virgin" or "Beethoven's 5th Sympony" or etc.  Way loads of fun!

If you have a dac and some ram you can play anything.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: damorgue on Wed, 16 January 2013, 01:14:19
Every word has its own melody?
I'm curious about whether different tone on each key produces better audible feedback than mono tone. Even if not, it is a fun at least :)

I believe someone already wrote AHK script doing like this somewhere. I'd find and try.
I agree its fun!  I want each successive char to play the next note of  "Jingle Bells" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" or "Mary had a Little Lamb" or "Like a Virgin" or "Beethoven's 5th Sympony" or etc.  Way loads of fun!

If you have a dac and some ram you can play anything.
One of Mr Interface's projects may interest you:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 16 January 2013, 01:15:02
I just talked with Massdrop via live chat.

They have ordered an aluminium case sample on Monday.
This sample is expected to arrive on Thursday or Friday! I was assured that they will upload pictures right away as soon as they have it.
Also, it will be available for both classic and full hand version.

Case feet are not included in the buy.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 16 January 2013, 02:39:58
If you don't already have spare keycaps or want to cannibalize caps from a used Cherry G80, it looks like the cheapest option for new caps (at least from WASD) would be to get:
  • 87-key set ($37 blank, +$10 labeled)
    and
  • (4) numpad "+" keys ($1/ea.)
    or
  • (3) Row-4 1x2.00 key ($1.25)
    or
  • (2) "+" keys & (1) Row-4 1x2.00 key
The 87-key set will provide (2) 1x1.5 keys and (7) 1x1.25 keys sufficient to cover the ErgoDox's (8 ) 1x1.5 key spots with some slight edge gaps, or you can add (10) Row-3 1x1.5 keys ($1/ea.). The 87-key set includes a cap puller and enough spare F-keys, which have a fairly flat Row-4 profile that the ErgoDox won't use, that can be used to fill in keys as needed. I wonder if WASD would be willing to offer an 87-key labeled set with blank F-keys upon request?

What's the ideal set?

That depends on your preferences, such as whether you want labeled or blank keys, DCS-like row-profiled keys vs. DSA-like identical-profile keys, any contrasting-color keys, what key layout you want and how much layout experimenting you want to do, etc. The basic inventory goes like this:
An "ideal" set would include the 1.5 and 2.0 keys; the former are only available in Row-3 profile, and the latter could be (4) numpad "+" keys, or (2) "+" keys and (2) Row-4 1x2 keys (e.g. if you want your inner/outer 2x thumb keys to feel different, as some Kinesis models have them).

Now, for the remaining 1x1 keys. If you want blank identical-profile keys and the utmost color-coding potential, just order the quantities listed above a la carte with Row-3 1x1s, and you should be good at $80 for the set. If you want labeled or row-profiled keys, your best bet is probably going with an 87-key set or a 37-key alpha-punct and 10-key numrow sets, then filling in the remaining 1x1 gaps -- at least 5 more with the 87-key set, or at least 13 more with the 37+10 approach.

With an 87-key blank set, you'll have plenty of blank, unused F-keys you can use, but otherwise, what row-profiles to get for those remaining keys can get complicated, involving what layout you'll be using, what keys don't fit in the matrix vs. their native layout and where/whether you want to use them, how much it matters to have matching key profiles across each row, etc. I'm not even going to get into those variables here.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 04:43:02
Im probably just going with wasd for the keys so that i can get my legends for my layers right on the caps and easily get them remade when they wear out.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 16 January 2013, 09:29:27
I got responses from MassDrop on my questions.  wasabah got the core answers we were waiting for this morning, as well.

All answers provided by Steve @ MassDrop.

Code: [Select]
Regarding the Aluminum case and photos:

We've placed the order with the manufacturer and will have pictures on Thursday or Friday

Code: [Select]
Regarding switch stabilizers in the kit

No, switch stabilizers are not included in this kit. We should easily be able to run group buys on these if there is enough interest though.

Code: [Select]
Regarding feet for the case

Unfortunately, no the feet are not included.

Code: [Select]
Regarding shipping (1 of 2) kits ordered to a different address. I this was asked by someone - about shipping directly to TheProfosist for build.

Not a problem. When you place your second order, just specify that address
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 16 January 2013, 10:19:18
WASDkeyboards sells stabilizers for $1 (.50 for the bar and .50 for a pair of plate-mount clips) per key, so the cost for the ErgoDox (which has 4 long keys) would be $4:

http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-parts-1.html

Using thumb keys for years on Kinesis keyboards, I have to say the stabilizers are not necessary, but wouldn't hurt either.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 16 January 2013, 10:44:44
I got responses from MassDrop on my questions.  wasabah got the core answers we were waiting for this morning, as well.

All answers provided by Steve @ MassDrop.

Code: [Select]
Regarding the Aluminum case and photos:

We've placed the order with the manufacturer and will have pictures on Thursday or Friday

Code: [Select]
Regarding switch stabilizers in the kit

No, switch stabilizers are not included in this kit. We should easily be able to run group buys on these if there is enough interest though.

Code: [Select]
Regarding feet for the case

Unfortunately, no the feet are not included.

Code: [Select]
Regarding shipping (1 of 2) kits ordered to a different address. I this was asked by someone - about shipping directly to TheProfosist for build.

Not a problem. When you place your second order, just specify that address

no feet? :(

i guess i got to buy something to prevent it from sliding....
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 16 January 2013, 10:50:24
I got responses from MassDrop on my questions.  wasabah got the core answers we were waiting for this morning, as well.

All answers provided by Steve @ MassDrop.

Code: [Select]
Regarding the Aluminum case and photos:

We've placed the order with the manufacturer and will have pictures on Thursday or Friday

Code: [Select]
Regarding switch stabilizers in the kit

No, switch stabilizers are not included in this kit. We should easily be able to run group buys on these if there is enough interest though.

Code: [Select]
Regarding feet for the case

Unfortunately, no the feet are not included.

Code: [Select]
Regarding shipping (1 of 2) kits ordered to a different address. I this was asked by someone - about shipping directly to TheProfosist for build.

Not a problem. When you place your second order, just specify that address

no feet? :(

i guess i got to buy something to prevent it from sliding....

They sell good things at most hardware stores that you can use. On the cheap especially.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 16 January 2013, 10:54:10
Anyone thinking about using two 1x1-size keys in the place of any of the 1x2 thumb keys? I was thinking about doing that, possibly with DSA rows 2, 1, 5 from bottom to top, so that it's easy to hit the ones in back without accidentally actuating the keys in front of them.
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 12:02:10
I got responses from MassDrop on my questions.  wasabah got the core answers we were waiting for this morning, as well.

All answers provided by Steve @ MassDrop.

Code: [Select]
Regarding the Aluminum case and photos:

We've placed the order with the manufacturer and will have pictures on Thursday or Friday

Code: [Select]
Regarding switch stabilizers in the kit

No, switch stabilizers are not included in this kit. We should easily be able to run group buys on these if there is enough interest though.

Code: [Select]
Regarding feet for the case

Unfortunately, no the feet are not included.

Code: [Select]
Regarding shipping (1 of 2) kits ordered to a different address. I this was asked by someone - about shipping directly to TheProfosist for build.

Not a problem. When you place your second order, just specify that address

no feet? :(

i guess i got to buy something to prevent it from sliding....
get some egrips and that thing wont move. If you dont want to buy a roll i have one and could sell strips.
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 16 January 2013, 13:34:49
get some egrips and that thing wont move. If you dont want to buy a roll i have one and could sell strips.

whatever costs less i guess, however grip material sounds like something i would want to hoard :) where would you find a roll of this stuff? I need to put that stuff on my HHKB which slides all over my desk when i don't have a desk rug lol
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 13:47:48
get some egrips and that thing wont move. If you dont want to buy a roll i have one and could sell strips.

whatever costs less i guess, however grip material sounds like something i would want to hoard :) where would you find a roll of this stuff? I need to put that stuff on my HHKB which slides all over my desk when i don't have a desk rug lol
right here sir http://tinyurl.com/ab2t2l8

also check out all the info on the product at http://www.egrips.com/
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Wed, 16 January 2013, 16:15:38
If you want to get some nonskid stuff on the cheap, these things would probably fit the bill.  They work amazingly well.  They're just sheets of rubbery webbing that aren't sticky, but that absolutely detest sliding on surfaces.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=2642312

From West Marine they're $2 for "one placemat" worth of material, which would probably be good enough for both keyboards.  I didn't check what shipping would cost;  perhaps something obscene.  I know I've got a 12" wide roll of this stuff somewhere, but I don't remember where I bought it anymore.  Probably just a hardware or big-box store.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 20:26:55
links not working for me but i think it like that cabinet liner
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Wed, 16 January 2013, 23:26:35
get some egrips and that thing wont move. If you dont want to buy a roll i have one and could sell strips.

whatever costs less i guess, however grip material sounds like something i would want to hoard :) where would you find a roll of this stuff? I need to put that stuff on my HHKB which slides all over my desk when i don't have a desk rug lol
right here sir http://tinyurl.com/ab2t2l8

also check out all the info on the product at http://www.egrips.com/

Is this tape stuff the grippy material you put on the bottom of the 23ub I bought off of you?  If it is, it's amazing!  Way better than cabinet liner.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 16 January 2013, 23:35:07
get some egrips and that thing wont move. If you dont want to buy a roll i have one and could sell strips.

whatever costs less i guess, however grip material sounds like something i would want to hoard :) where would you find a roll of this stuff? I need to put that stuff on my HHKB which slides all over my desk when i don't have a desk rug lol
right here sir http://tinyurl.com/ab2t2l8

also check out all the info on the product at http://www.egrips.com/

Is this tape stuff the grippy material you put on the bottom of the 23ub I bought off of you?  If it is, it's amazing!  Way better than cabinet liner.
yep yep though i did put some of this inbetween http://tinyurl.com/a7edugp so it stuck better and made it a bit thicker.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Thu, 17 January 2013, 05:31:30
Do you guys think it would be possible to install some kind of led strip into the ErgoDox to get a nice shine through the space between the keys? I will be using blanks, but it would look kinda cool especially with an RGB strip to produce multiple colors.  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 17 January 2013, 08:08:19
Do you guys think it would be possible to install some kind of led strip into the ErgoDox to get a nice shine through the space between the keys? I will be using blanks, but it would look kinda cool especially with an RGB strip to produce multiple colors.  :cool:

I thought about running really thin EL wire or EL tape in a Model M, but I didn't want to bother with an inverter or external power...   That said, it would be easy to route around and no worries of shorts.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Thu, 17 January 2013, 13:24:43
links not working for me but i think it like that cabinet liner

Whoops.  Fixed the link (I think).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Thu, 17 January 2013, 16:19:42
Didn't they say that they will get the aluminium cases earlier today? I want to see them so bad...   ;D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 17 January 2013, 16:42:18
Yea - I talked to Will today.  He said they had the ALU cases and were in the process of building the boards.  So, we should have pictures later tonight or tomorrow sometime.  They were having issues with the conversion from Acrylic designs to ALU designs.  The sizing was off on the first run they did.

Also found out the ALU cases are water cut.

And the MD site should have an update soon that will bring back the ability to update your own orders via the transaction page.

-----------

I took the layout image from MD, too, and created a blank overlay - in case anyone else wants to mock up a custom layout/layer.

Here: http://i.imgur.com/0DFgS.png
And here:
[attach=1]
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 17 January 2013, 16:55:17
very interested in seeing those pictures.

it sucks there is still 10 days, i want an ErgoDox nnnoooowwwwww
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Thu, 17 January 2013, 17:02:48
You and me, both.  I find myself watching these threads wayyyyyyy more than I need to.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Thu, 17 January 2013, 17:22:34
I've been thinking about making a keypad out of the left side of the ErgoDox, but I don't know whether it could actually function on its own without the right side (do you need the I/O expander even if you use only one part of the keyboard?). I would want one ErgoDox for normal use with blues, and a left sided half  :D for gaming with reds. Would this be possible?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 17 January 2013, 17:36:59
I would want one ErgoDox for normal use with blues, and a left sided half  :D for gaming with reds. Would this be possible?

Buy two!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Thu, 17 January 2013, 17:44:00
I would want one ErgoDox for normal use with blues, and a left sided half  :D for gaming with reds. Would this be possible?

Buy two!
Well, I am hoping to get the one intended for the keypad to cost around half the price, and I would not like having one whole additional ErgoDox where I don't even use one of its sides. If it's not possible, I won't buy a second one to have half of it as a keypad, that's for sure!  :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 17 January 2013, 17:55:58
I would want one ErgoDox for normal use with blues, and a left sided half  :D for gaming with reds. Would this be possible?

Buy two!
Well, I am hoping to get the one intended for the keypad to cost around half the price, and I would not like having one whole additional ErgoDox where I don't even use one of its sides. If it's not possible, I won't buy a second one to have half of it as a keypad, that's for sure!  :))

Get another (or 2) PCBs and build it up, then come up for a case for it separately... that way you could do the controller swap and have the controller on the left side... you could plug it in separately, and have 1.5 keyboards...

edit: weird spacing

edit2: now I want to do that... dang it! that's more money...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 18 January 2013, 01:46:33
I would want one ErgoDox for normal use with blues, and a left sided half  :D for gaming with reds. Would this be possible?
Buy two!
Well, I am hoping to get the one intended for the keypad to cost around half the price, and I would not like having one whole additional ErgoDox where I don't even use one of its sides. If it's not possible, I won't buy a second one to have half of it as a keypad, that's for sure!  :))

At the very least, just add (1) extra PCB to your order (they're the same for each side, being double-sided) and BYO set of (38) MX reds, (38) diodes, (1) MCP23018 I/O expander, (1) 3.5mm TRRS connector... I think that's all? This would leave the matter of a case/mounting solution, but at any rate the TRRS connection would make it pretty trivial to swap your left-hand modules as needed.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 18 January 2013, 01:59:28
25 keyboards to go to hit the $199 price (it's now at $226 which isn't too bad) but... let's do a little poll here:
Who has not ordered the keyboard on massdrop, but plans to do so in the next 10 days ?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Fri, 18 January 2013, 02:27:47
I will probably order one more after having seen the aluminium case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 18 January 2013, 02:37:06
Myself I have not ordered yet, but plan to order a full hand keyboard (and just maybe a 2nd) probably in the last couple of days of the GB.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 03:18:51
I have yet to order mine too. I want to see the aluminium case first, like many others.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 04:44:06
I'm still thinking about it... still rubber dome keyboard user, so it will be my first mechanical. Maybe I order one in next days :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: figit090 on Fri, 18 January 2013, 05:15:33
I'm interested in this but I'd like to see what people think of it, and I can't afford $200 right now.  I also wouldn't know what switch to choose because I've only tried one type, and it is my simple alps board.

Will it possibly be available again in the future, or be developed more?  Great work, it looks awesome!

Also, no function keys?  why not?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 18 January 2013, 07:18:26
I'm going to buy 2. Just waiting for Alu and news about browns (it will be cheaper and simpler for bookkeeping for me to order it with switches, but they have to be brown).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 18 January 2013, 08:35:26
I'm interested in this but I'd like to see what people think of it, and I can't afford $200 right now.  I also wouldn't know what switch to choose because I've only tried one type, and it is my simple alps board.

Will it possibly be available again in the future, or be developed more?  Great work, it looks awesome!

Also, no function keys?  why not?

No function keys because the keyboard is multi layered. That is, there are "fn" keys that allow you to access secondary/tertiary layers for things like numpad etc.

As of this writing, macro capability is not in the firmware, but I believe that it will be in the cards at a later date.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 18 January 2013, 08:43:56
I haven't ordered yet. I will definitely get one, mAaaaybe two. I've got blue And brown switches to salvage at home but I'll need a set or two of key caps. Hopefully MD will time it where the keyboard parts arrive before the key cap buy ends.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 18 January 2013, 09:13:35
I'm interested in this but I'd like to see what people think of it, and I can't afford $200 right now.  I also wouldn't know what switch to choose because I've only tried one type, and it is my simple alps board.

You can order it without switches ($44 cheaper) so hopefully it will be only $155  and decide later on switches and keycaps. This way you'll have more options (reds, browns) that aren't offered here, and will have time to raise some more funds for those parts.

Quote
Will it possibly be available again in the future, or be developed more?

It might be available in the future, but it will probably be more expensive since the quantities ordered will be lower.
My guess it that the thing that will developed more is the firmware.

Basically, if you really like it and think you might be miserable if you miss it, get it during this GB, otherwise wait :-)
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 18 January 2013, 10:16:10
And that's why I'm getting two. I'm afraid this doesn't show up in another GB, and I'd be super annoyed if I missed out.

Been waiting on this board for too long now to pass on it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TDub on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:30:27
I'm also probably get two. If I get one and love it, I will hate not having a second one for the office. The risk is just to great  :eek:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:37:52
Today I received a sampler kit with switches, keycaps and O-rings from WASD http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/wasd-sampler-kit.html
I've read and watched all reviews about Cherry MX switches before, but it is still a totally different story to touch it myself.
Usually I do a lot of programming during the day and then play a bit at night, mostly Tanki Online lately. And my wife complains that my MS Natural Pro is too clicky during gaming, which actually it really is. So I tested different cherries with this setup in mind.

First of all - Blues are really clicky and can be recommended only if either you live alone or have a separate sound-proof room and do really love that clicky sound.
Then overall there are 4 sounds when you press and release the button (in the order of appearance): "grrr" in the middle, click at the bottom, click at the top, resonance in the key cap.
Click at the bottom is killed almost completely by the O-ring. Personally I will choose blue ones, as softest and thickest.
"grrr" in the middle is only for Browns, as they have that bump. Blacks and Reds are linear and don't have any sound in the middle.
"grrr" is actually quite weak and probably not really noticeable compared to the click at the top or key cap resonance. So Browns are relatively good balance between feel and sound.
Blacks are heavier to press, but at the same time the pressure of the spring inside is bigger, so it's all the time under tension and the top click is smaller and shorter and lower pitch than in Reds, which are somehow wobblier. I.e. Blacks are quietest of all, but I'm not yet sure how my fingers react to the additional force. My current MS Pro is not very light either, probably a tad lighter than Blacks, so the Black might be actually ok.
And then we have key cap resonance - the black switch without key cap is almost inaudible, but with the key cap the top click is well audible. I don't know if PBT would be better compared to ABS in this aspect, might be.

For the top click I'm going to try a couple of very small drops of rubber glue inside at the sides of the switch case where the stem knocks the case and if it helps in any way and doesn't prevent the stem from moving.
The key cap (actually only half of it) can be either filled with the same rubber glue or with 4 square pieces of dense acoustic foam - to make it overall heavier and/or don't reflect sound that easily.

I also think that while I'll order Browns as a primary switch for letters-numbers, I will try to order couple of dozens of reds and blacks and eventually replace the arrows and Alt-Ctrl-Space and other control keys, where one usually bottom-outs anyway and where the bump-feel of the browns is not really important. This way it will be quiet in games where arrows and ctrl-space make the most of the noise. But at the same time it will be comfortable to type on browns during the day.
Luckily one can replace stems or springs without disassembling the whole keyboard. The cases of all Cherry MX switches seem to be exactly the same.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:49:22
I'm also probably get two. If I get one and love it, I will hate not having a second one for the office. The risk is just to great  :eek:

Exactly my point for ordering 2  :cool:
I'm actually thinking what happens if one of my sons follows my path and starts typing a lot and would need a good keyboard also. Which may happen quite soon actually  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:51:33
I'm also probably get two. If I get one and love it, I will hate not having a second one for the office. The risk is just to great  :eek:

Exactly my point for ordering 2  :cool:
I'm actually thinking what happens if one of my sons follows my path and starts typing a lot and would need a good keyboard also. Which may happen quite soon actually  :rolleyes:

What about your grandchildren?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Fri, 18 January 2013, 11:56:49
I'm also probably get two. If I get one and love it, I will hate not having a second one for the office. The risk is just to great  :eek:

Exactly my point for ordering 2  :cool:
I'm actually thinking what happens if one of my sons follows my path and starts typing a lot and would need a good keyboard also. Which may happen quite soon actually  :rolleyes:

What about your grandchildren?

They gonna have direct brain interface :) And/or computer embedded into the brain :)
And grand-grandchildren won't have computers at all - just pure energy-information :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Fri, 18 January 2013, 13:40:05
No word yet on the aluminum case?  I don't see anything on the MD site yet.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 18 January 2013, 13:43:39
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 18 January 2013, 13:53:25
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
sounds great, we have to be bugging the **** outa them.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 18 January 2013, 14:48:43
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
sounds great, we have to be bugging the **** outa them.

What I've been thinking.  And I didn't get a response - plus I think I scared them away.  Live support isn't available anymore right now.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Fri, 18 January 2013, 14:57:22
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
sounds great, we have to be bugging the **** outa them.

What I've been thinking.  And I didn't get a response - plus I think I scared them away.  Live support isn't available anymore right now.

Lunchtime in California...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:03:30
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
sounds great, we have to be bugging the **** outa them.

What I've been thinking.  And I didn't get a response - plus I think I scared them away.  Live support isn't available anymore right now.

Lunchtime in California...

lol or they are dodging us, what if the reason there isn't a picture yet is because its ugly?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:05:00
Let's check with live support - I'll update this once I hear back.
sounds great, we have to be bugging the **** outa them.

What I've been thinking.  And I didn't get a response - plus I think I scared them away.  Live support isn't available anymore right now.

Lunchtime in California...

lol or they are dodging us, what if the reason there isn't a picture yet is because its ugly?

D:
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:09:36
Would just make my decision on what case type to buy easier.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:24:06
lol or they are dodging us, what if the reason there isn't a picture yet is because its ugly?
OH NOES D:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:30:49
Hey its possible, I'm happy with this group buy but remember these people also forgot feet in planning the parts and they didn't have an example aluminium case to begin with.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:34:53
As it's waterjet cut, it may just not work.  Tolerance isn't all that great on a water jet and if  they cut the plate with it, they may not be able to get switches into it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Fri, 18 January 2013, 15:43:05
Oh... didn't know that.  I wonder if they could make the plate in acrylic instead then... I like the idea of aluminum on the outside layers for (in my mind) long term durability...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:24:13
As it's waterjet cut, it may just not work.  Tolerance isn't all that great on a water jet and if  they cut the plate with it, they may not be able to get switches into it.

Good possibility.  The ALU case was delayed this long, as is, because they were having sizing issues when they tried to use the original acrylic case plans.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:30:01
I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Be patient.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Fri, 18 January 2013, 16:32:56
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jump-to-conclusions-mat.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Fri, 18 January 2013, 18:19:59
I just realized these have acrylic plates for the switches. Acrylic in 0.060" is a lot more flimsy than a metal plate. I'm curious to know how it feels though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: __red__ on Fri, 18 January 2013, 21:30:18
I just realized these have acrylic plates for the switches. Acrylic in 0.060" is a lot more flimsy than a metal plate. I'm curious to know how it feels though.

When I make acrylic plates I use 5mm instead of 0.060".  0.060" plonks it in the slot for the plate on the switch.  5mm is the entire height of the key.

It works wonderfully like that too.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 18 January 2013, 22:20:26
Yep... 5mm is the spec!  :)  It's like electronic plywood.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TDub on Sat, 19 January 2013, 05:09:10
Show Image
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jump-to-conclusions-mat.jpg)


Love that reference :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:18:45
guys, whats the verdict?

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/massdrop-product-ergodox-au3.jpeg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:26:01
gee.... I don't know. I opted for aluminium at first, but now I kinda like the acrylic better.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:26:14
Think dome head screws would be nicer.  Otherwise, not too shabby.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:27:17
guys, whats the verdict?
I'm sticking with acrylic, thats for sure....
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:37:42
The Alu Case "look" pretty heavy to me. :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:40:02
Like I posted in the other ErgoDox thread; I don't like it, and I think the acrylic looks a lot better. That being said I know a lot of people like aluminum, so it will help boost the sales a little bit at least.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Sat, 19 January 2013, 08:59:43
The fit seems a little "raw" as is but a little chamfering, grinding and replacing the cap screws with flat head machine screws could polish up that gem.
I prefer the aesthetics of the classic design without rest. I plan to inset it into a wood tray anyway.

My concern about the acrylic case is the vulnerability of the top layer between the thumb and finger keys.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 09:04:30
Like I posted in the other ErgoDox thread; I don't like it, and I think the acrylic looks a lot better. That being said I know a lot of people like aluminum, so it will help boost the sales a little bit at least.
Ctrl+v, if someone doesn't read the other thread.

Nah, I agree, they could've done a much better job at it. First, the surface looks kinda messy (some might like it though), the black screws don't match with it and the side... oh god, what a horror... it looks like you just put some keycaps on layers of aluminium plate. I guess my expectations were too high. Maybe I'll make one myself, I have connections to the technical institute around here with all kinds of industrial machines.  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 19 January 2013, 09:53:35
Making one that's not a layer-cake would boost the cost by at least $150
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 19 January 2013, 09:53:56
I guess i'm a bit alone in liking it but i am going to go acrylic anyway lol, i don't see the money justification and its ugly full hand either way, i have lots of stuff to buy coming up; phantom, gh60, ergodox. money better spent on double shot key caps for my projects. :)

does anyone know if the switches that massdrop is selling have the pcb mounting tabs, meaning pcb mounted switches. I would be more comfortable knowing the switches have both a plate and pcb mount.

edit: ooooh snap, they added mx red switches as an option, yeeeessssssss
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:10:48
I think that with a bit of sanding the sides and replacing screws it will be ok.

Does anyone know how much heavier would be alu vs acrylic in classic no-rests design?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:21:38
Making one that's not a layer-cake would boost the cost by at least $150
I'm thinking about making only the top layer from aluminium, which would cover the sides as well, and would be from a one-piece block. This was you could keep all the other layers, and still have a very nice metal looking aluminium keyboard.

I made a little illustration, it would obviously cover the front as well.

(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/130119/alu_top_ergodox_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:22:51
acrylic looks a lot better and it won't freeze during winter.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:33:36
I guess i'm a bit alone in liking it but i am going to go acrylic anyway lol, i don't see the money justification and its ugly full hand either way, i have lots of stuff to buy coming up; phantom, gh60, ergodox. money better spent on double shot key caps for my projects. :)

does anyone know if the switches that massdrop is selling have the pcb mounting tabs, meaning pcb mounted switches. I would be more comfortable knowing the switches have both a plate and pcb mount.

edit: ooooh snap, they added mx red switches as an option, yeeeessssssss

Sad, too bad I've sworn of mx reds for typing. I switched my daily driver at home back to my unicomp. I forgot how sexy, yet insanely loud, those buckling springs are.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:43:19
I like the aluminium case, and I especially like how the switches look like they're floating in aluminium. That said, I think I'll go with acrylic, as the Al does look nice, but it's not worth the extra $65 to me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:50:13
Well, due to unfortunate happenings I had to write a letter to MassDrop.

Quote
Hi!


I quote the site: "Don't worry - you won't be charged until the end of the group buy. You'll have to enter your payment info up front so we know you're serious, but you'll only be charged the final price."

I decided to commit to buying the ErgoDox keyboard, have listed PayPal as my preferred paying method, and have finalised the procedure. Yet unlike the site states, it has charged my PayPal account immediately. This either has to be a bug with the implementation of PayPal or you posted false information and deceived your customers. I really hope you can clarify the situation and fix this problem.


Regards,
xxx
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:50:50
Those are just a bunch of aluminum plates stacked? I was under the impression it was CNC from a solid block of aluminum. Meh... I'll stick to acrylic.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 10:54:04
Well, due to unfortunate happenings I had to write a letter to MassDrop.

Quote
Hi!


I quote the site: "Don't worry - you won't be charged until the end of the group buy. You'll have to enter your payment info up front so we know you're serious, but you'll only be charged the final price."

I decided to commit to buying the ErgoDox keyboard, have listed PayPal as my preferred paying method, and have finalised the procedure. Yet unlike the site states, it has charged my PayPal account immediately. This either has to be a bug with the implementation of PayPal or you posted false information and deceived your customers. I really hope you can clarify the situation and fix this problem.


Regards,
xxx


The really ironic part is my email inbox.

(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/130119/whelp_thats_intersting_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:15:37
Well, due to unfortunate happenings I had to write a letter to MassDrop.

Quote
Hi!


I quote the site: "Don't worry - you won't be charged until the end of the group buy. You'll have to enter your payment info up front so we know you're serious, but you'll only be charged the final price."

I decided to commit to buying the ErgoDox keyboard, have listed PayPal as my preferred paying method, and have finalised the procedure. Yet unlike the site states, it has charged my PayPal account immediately. This either has to be a bug with the implementation of PayPal or you posted false information and deceived your customers. I really hope you can clarify the situation and fix this problem.


Regards,
xxx


The really ironic part is my email inbox.

Show Image
(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/130119/whelp_thats_intersting_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png)


Sh--. I guess I'll need to check my paypal now as well.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:18:51
Well, due to unfortunate happenings I had to write a letter to MassDrop.

Quote
Hi!


I quote the site: "Don't worry - you won't be charged until the end of the group buy. You'll have to enter your payment info up front so we know you're serious, but you'll only be charged the final price."

I decided to commit to buying the ErgoDox keyboard, have listed PayPal as my preferred paying method, and have finalised the procedure. Yet unlike the site states, it has charged my PayPal account immediately. This either has to be a bug with the implementation of PayPal or you posted false information and deceived your customers. I really hope you can clarify the situation and fix this problem.


Regards,
xxx


The really ironic part is my email inbox.

Show Image
(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/130119/whelp_thats_intersting_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png)


yeah the paypal thing scares me a bit because they are authorized to take my money. mine in pay pal says

"Authorization To    MassDrop Group Inc.   Pending"

its been at pending authorization since i signed up last week, no movement of money has occurred thankfully. i'm wondering though how with the price changing how they are going to deal with that, they are authorized to take 274$ from me, but it looks like they are going to drop to 199 when we hit 100, are they going to take my 274 and refund me 75?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:35:28
yeah the paypal thing scares me a bit because they are authorized to take my money. mine in pay pal says

"Authorization To    MassDrop Group Inc.   Pending"

its been at pending authorization since i signed up last week, no movement of money has occurred thankfully. i'm wondering though how with the price changing how they are going to deal with that, they are authorized to take 274$ from me, but it looks like they are going to drop to 199 when we hit 100, are they going to take my 274 and refund me 75?
What did you do? After purchasing it redirected me to the PayPal website, where I clicked one continue and it made the payment immediately.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:42:39
you still have to make a paypal transaction to "authorize" a payment, so its sort of like actually going through the process but with no money movement. if your in the paypal.com transaction history it should say "Authorization To    MassDrop Group Inc.   Pending", as long it says Pending, no money movement has occured,

this is how it should look where money has NOT come out of your account(s) yet
(http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/paypalexample.png)

now if you have 2 rows in your history, one showing money coming out of your credit card, bank account, or paypal balance and another showing money going into MassDrop Group Inc. saying Completed then yeah, that's a major problem
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Susan1430 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 11:51:58
Well, due to unfortunate happenings I had to write a letter to MassDrop.

Quote
Show Image
(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/130119/whelp_thats_intersting_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png)


I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that when a merchant authorizes a payment, they are just checking that sufficient funds are there. They aren't taking the money at that point (and they might never take it). And yes, they are able to reauthorize it for a different amount.

You might find the info on this page helpful:
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/howto_admin_authcapture

Let me clarify that I'm not speaking from firsthand knowledge of massdrop, but I have been the buyer in a preorder type situation before and what's described in the paypal website is consistent with my experience at the time.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:23:33
Ok, seems like the money is frozen on my PayPal account (it's not sent yet), why I freaked out is that I got a text to my phone from the bank that said: "Successful card payment - 263 USD; PayPal *Massdrop Inc." It's really surprising thought, that to check that I have sufficient funds, they have to freeze that amount. In that case, it's really not different from taking the money right away.

The waiter doesn't check whether I have got enough money when I go to a restaurant, nor does he take the wallet for a deposit. I thought Massdrop trusted their customers that much.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:38:03
Ok, seems like the money is frozen on my PayPal account (it's not sent yet), why I freaked out is that I got a text to my phone from the bank that said: "Successful card payment - 263 USD; PayPal *Massdrop Inc." It's really surprising thought, that to check that I have sufficient funds, they have to freeze that amount. In that case, it's really not different from taking the money right away.

The waiter doesn't check whether I have got enough money when I go to a restaurant, nor does he take the wallet for a deposit. I thought Massdrop trusted their customers that much.

Never had a tab at a bar where you had to hand over your card?  Usually they run it for a certain amount for pre-approval... just to make sure you're not handing them a dead card.   How about reservations for a hotel?  You put your credit card info in, and they pre-approve it for a certain charge, but don't actually bill you until you check out.   Pretty much any time you buy something online with a credit card they do the pre-approval charge, but don't send the actual charge through until it ships.

I will certainly agree, however, that Paypal has worded the information terribly and not made it very clear that it's a pre-approval vs an actual charge that has processed. 
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:38:04
Aluminum case pic is up
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:48:05
Never had a tab at a bar where you had to hand over your card?  Usually they run it for a certain amount for pre-approval... just to make sure you're not handing them a dead card.   How about reservations for a hotel?  You put your credit card info in, and they pre-approve it for a certain charge, but don't actually bill you until you check out.   Pretty much any time you buy something online with a credit card they do the pre-approval charge, but don't send the actual charge through until it ships.

I will certainly agree, however, that Paypal has worded the information terribly and not made it very clear that it's a pre-approval vs an actual charge that has processed.
No, at bars (at least where I live), you pay after you consume or right as you're ordering a drink. If you fail to do so, the police will take you for a ride. At hotels you either make a reservation with a fraction or the whole amount of the payment, but they make it pretty clear that they will take the money. As with online purchase (although this will be my first group buy) I have never seen another site who takes your money just as an indicator for interest, and believe me, even the postman knows me by name I have so many packages coming in. This really seems like "We're gonna take your money, just in case you somehow magically go bankrupt and can't pay".
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:50:42
If you make a reservation online, they require a credit card.  When you check in, they require a credit card.  Both times they are putting a temporary hold on your account for the entire amount of the stay you have reserved.  This is standard practice in the US.  I've not had that experience at a bar, but I don't really go to bars all that much.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kmiller8 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:51:46
I see no reason with the way PayPal/Massdrop is doing this. You make a commitment to Massdrop to purchase something, and Massdrop asks PayPal to reserve the amount you said you would pay. This prevents people from changing their mind at the last minute, or take 4 weeks to pay holding up the entire groupbuy.

As already said, they haven't even charged you yet, just ensuring that they can allocate all the funds for the purchase.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 12:57:54
If you make a reservation online, they require a credit card.  When you check in, they require a credit card.  Both times they are putting a temporary hold on your account for the entire amount of the stay you have reserved.  This is standard practice in the US.  I've not had that experience at a bar, but I don't really go to bars all that much.
Can you explain how is this technically any different from paying right away? I really don't understand this system. You can't have your money back. You can't use your money in the mean time until the actual payment. This is like the difference between having no bars of gold and having one bar of gold orbiting Earth in outer space. Technically you still have one bar of gold, but it's completely useless.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Sat, 19 January 2013, 13:02:14
You can still cancel, but it becomes more a matter of negotiating with the vendor and getting them to cancel the transaction on your behalf (if they're willing) usually they'll hang on to a percentage for the inconvenience.

Equally you can still earn interest etcetera on this money, whereas massdrop do not.  The money is still yours, it's just committed.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 13:03:00
I see no reason with the way PayPal/Massdrop is doing this. You make a commitment to Massdrop to purchase something, and Massdrop asks PayPal to reserve the amount you said you would pay. This prevents people from changing their mind at the last minute, or take 4 weeks to pay holding up the entire groupbuy.

As already said, they haven't even charged you yet, just ensuring that they can allocate all the funds for the purchase.
And I have no problem with that, but again, they didn't say "Upon making a commintment to buy, we're going to reserve the needed amount of money from your PayPal account. In the case the buy doesn't make the price drop you waited for, we're going to pay you back your money." No. It said "Don't worry - you won't be charged until the end of the group buy.", and I find this very deceiving. Technically they took the money right away.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 13:06:53
You can still cancel, but it becomes more a matter of negotiating with the vendor and getting them to cancel the transaction on your behalf (if they're willing) usually they'll hang on to a percentage for the inconvenience.

Equally you can still earn interest etcetera on this money, whereas massdrop do not.  The money is still yours, it's just committed.
I do not wish to, fortunately I am not in the position where I would need this money for the following week, but I can imagine that there are people who thought "Hey, i will get my pay 2 days before the group buy ends and then I will have enough money to pay for it. I'm going to commit to join to show that I'm in!" And suddenly, they don't have money to buy food. Oops.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kmiller8 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 13:32:43
Technically they took the money right away.

They're reserving the money, it's a pending payment, and depending how your PP account is set up, it might have set a pending payment in your bank account as well. It's just pending, none of the money is actually taken. They reserve the full amount  $300 (or w/e) and only charge you the $199 at the end. They do this to ensure that you actually have the funds to pay for it. It's a good business practice, they're not trying to steal your money a week early...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 14:06:25
They're reserving the money, it's a pending payment, and depending how your PP account is set up, it might have set a pending payment in your bank account as well. It's just pending, none of the money is actually taken. They reserve the full amount  $300 (or w/e) and only charge you the $199 at the end. They do this to ensure that you actually have the funds to pay for it. It's a good business practice, they're not trying to steal your money a week early...
Again, I have no problem with this business practice, what I have a problem is is the misinterpretable text about how they will only charge you when the group buy is closed. It didn't say that they will reserve the money, and for me being charged at the end of the deal actually means that I have to pay at the end of the deal. Having my money reserved is very little different from paying right away, as I'm simply stripped from my freedom to use it.

Writing "Remember that you're not being charged anything just yet. You'll only be charged this amount if enough people join the group buy." does not justify them to get into my bank account and reserve my money. Writing "We are going to reserve the money needed for the payment." does.


But we should go back to discussing the ErgoDox, I will settle this case with Massdrop myself.  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 19 January 2013, 14:18:10
yes back on subject

has anyone found out if the switches they are selling are pcb mount (has the pcb stabilizer tabs/nubs on the bottom of the switch)

i really wouldn't have a problem with a acrylic plate if there was some extra support, if the switches are not PCB mount i worry the acrylic plate isn't good enough.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Sat, 19 January 2013, 15:26:04
yes back on subject

has anyone found out if the switches they are selling are pcb mount (has the pcb stabilizer tabs/nubs on the bottom of the switch)

i really wouldn't have a problem with a acrylic plate if there was some extra support, if the switches are not PCB mount i worry the acrylic plate isn't good enough.

I think someone talked to them and they're plate mount only, not pcb mount.   Reviewing the picture of the bottom, you can see the Central post, but it doesn't look like the 2 additional pins are in any of the alignment holes. I opted for no switches so I could use PCB mount ones.

(https://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/img_bucket/ergo-dox-instruction/_W3T2121.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 15:38:57
Im grabbing alu and will probably get it anodized next time i do a run.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sat, 19 January 2013, 15:46:52
So we could use pcb OR plate mounted switches if we so choose? If that's the case then I might actually forgo the switch option, and just get some switches from someone in the classifieds.

Another quick question; How many switches do we actually need to fill up the board? I counted 76 on the board, but 77 in the picture. Oh, and the "included"-list lists 88. Just a stupid question that I know the answer to, but feel it's so unclear.
I also think it's interesting how they didn't seem to include how to solder the actual switches in the build guide (unless I'm blind).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Sat, 19 January 2013, 16:31:50
So we could use pcb OR plate mounted switches if we so choose? If that's the case then I might actually forgo the switch option, and just get some switches from someone in the classifieds.

Another quick question; How many switches do we actually need to fill up the board? I counted 76 on the board, but 77 in the picture. Oh, and the "included"-list lists 88. Just a stupid question that I know the answer to, but feel it's so unclear.
I also think it's interesting how they didn't seem to include how to solder the actual switches in the build guide (unless I'm blind).

AFAIC you can also have 4 small buttons under your thumbs instead of 2 big ones, then it would be 80 altogether, that's the max you can fit on these PCBs.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 16:35:27
But I think you'd have to mod the plate layer a bit to split the thumb keys.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 16:39:02
Is there a problem with the plate mount switches because the acrylic case would not be stable enough? I've read  the wiki, but this case seems to be a bit out of the ordinary. I don't know yet whether I want PCB or plate mounted switches, can someone explain the reasoning behind each choice?  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: BugBuster on Sat, 19 January 2013, 16:52:17
But I think you'd have to mod the plate layer a bit to split the thumb keys.

When I look at the photo of PCB, it seems that it's already ready for split thumb keys, just have to remap it properly in Teensy probably. But it's better if Dox or someone who designed the board confirms.

Is there a problem with the plate mount switches because the acrylic case would not be stable enough? I've read  the wiki, but this case seems to be a bit out of the ordinary. I don't know yet whether I want PCB or plate mounted switches, can someone explain the reasoning behind each choice?  :)

Basically you can have PCB-mount switch or plate-mount or both at the same time. The latter seems to be the case with ErgoDox.  Either PCB-mount or plate-mount is already enough for stable work.  So if you can find PCB-mount switches, then go for it and they will be supported by both pins inside PCB and plate above and will be extra strong and stable. IMHO
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 16:56:40
Im gooing to do booth PCB and platemount I hope i have enough PCB clears already though thats is stiill a good price for switches
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 17:07:57
Basically you can have PCB-mount switch or plate-mount or both at the same time. The latter seems to be the case with ErgoDox.  Either PCB-mount or plate-mount is already enough for stable work.  So if you can find PCB-mount switches, then go for it and they will be supported by both pins inside PCB and plate above and will be extra strong and stable. IMHO
Oh, I really like this idea! Too much stability and having a second lifeline never hurts. I'm thinking about buying greens, as I feel that my blues are a bit too light, but it's really hard to make the choice without actually trying the switches themselves. :D

I can make one (yes, one) ghetto green now, how much stiffer should the real greens feel? It's just hard to imagine the forces based on numbers such as 60cN and 80cN.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 17:17:46
Basically you can have PCB-mount switch or plate-mount or both at the same time. The latter seems to be the case with ErgoDox.  Either PCB-mount or plate-mount is already enough for stable work.  So if you can find PCB-mount switches, then go for it and they will be supported by both pins inside PCB and plate above and will be extra strong and stable. IMHO
Oh, I really like this idea! Too much stability and having a second lifeline never hurts. I'm thinking about buying greens, as I feel that my blues are a bit too light, but it's really hard to make the choice without actually trying the switches themselves. :D

I can make one (yes, one) ghetto green now, how much stiffer should the real greens feel? It's just hard to imagine the forces based on numbers such as 60cN and 80cN.
think of typing on blacks that click
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 17:18:56
But I think you'd have to mod the plate layer a bit to split the thumb keys.

When I look at the photo of PCB, it seems that it's already ready for split thumb keys, just have to remap it properly in Teensy probably. But it's better if Dox or someone who designed the board confirms.

Oh, no no no.  I was just talking about the plate (since I assume most people will be using one, building the keyboard with an unmodified case from the buy).  The PCB and the firmware support splitting the thumb keys easily, as you said.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:04:41
Caps buy is up on MD with blank PBT caps. $41/$37/$35.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:08:29
I saw that the keycaps went up. Those are super cheap for PBT's.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:09:32
Guess I'm in for those.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:22:11
I saw that the keycaps went up. Those are super cheap for PBT's.
where PBT? think WASD would laser them?

nm I found them im no good with complete blacks
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kmiller8 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:25:09
Caps buy is up on MD with blank PBT caps. $41/$37/$35.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap

Quote from: Massdrop.com
These keys are made in the USA at a manufacturing facility in Washington State.

I wonder who that could be. hmmmmmmm

Quote
Signature Plastics' 30,000 square foot facility is located on 16 acres in rural Whatcom County, approximately 120 miles north of Seattle, Washington.

:)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:34:44
The alignment pins of the PCB mount switches don't really add much to the stability of the switches.  Their main purpose is to orient the switch correctly.  Without a plate to square them all up, the switches can rotate a fair amount.  The solder legs on not solid enough to ensure proper switch alignment, both during assembly and through the life of the keyboard.  So it doesn't matter too much what the plate is made out of, from a switch orientation perspective.  As far as feel, well that is a different story.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:37:45
So would you say it's okay to go with only plate mounted switches?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 21:39:10
So would you say it's okay to go with only plate mounted switches?
yea its fine
but ii prefer dbl mounted whenever possible
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sat, 19 January 2013, 22:32:24
So would you say it's okay to go with only plate mounted switches?
yea its fine
but ii prefer dbl mounted whenever possible

Mhh.. So should I go with the offered switches or buy PCB mounted ones separately? :-\
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 19 January 2013, 22:48:54
PCB mounted with built-in diodes are the best for me. The only kind that can withstand pulling key caps even WITHOUT a plate. Heck, adding LEDs on top of that would make them indestructible :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 22:56:06
PCB mounted with built-in diodes are the best for me. The only kind that can withstand pulling key caps even WITHOUT a plate. Heck, adding LEDs on top of that would make them indestructible :-)
lol i dont think you can due to the diode being in there and all
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 23:49:43
"The keys have a flat profile which means they can be swapped out easily"

Noooooooo..... Does this mean that they will be DSA profile? This is a real turnoff for me, on an ergonomic keyboard I would expect ergonomically engineered keycaps.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 19 January 2013, 23:52:54
"The keys have a flat profile which means they can be swapped out easily"

Noooooooo..... Does this mean that they will be DSA profile? This is a real turnoff for me, on an ergonomic keyboard I would expect ergonomically engineered keycaps.
you realise the keyboard is flat too right?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Sat, 19 January 2013, 23:53:14
"The keys have a flat profile which means they can be swapped out easily"

Noooooooo..... Does this mean that they will be DSA profile? This is a real turnoff for me, on an ergonomic keyboard I would expect ergonomically engineered keycaps.

I would assume this would be better for the EDox. I'm getting one set and using my own cherry caps to see which is better.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 19 January 2013, 23:54:07
I decided to go with the caps. Then keep one what I want, and add some of my own caps if it doesn't mess with the profile much.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sat, 19 January 2013, 23:56:46
you realise the keyboard is flat too right?
Most keyboards are flat, yet it's more comfortable to type on sculpted caps (at least for me). If your hand stays on the home row, it's logical that the rows above and bellow should face the direction of your fingers.

I would assume this would be better for the EDox. I'm getting one set and using my own cherry caps to see which is better.
In the sense that they can simply mass produce the same key - yes, it makes their job much easier. But this matter should have been put up to vote on massdrop.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:03:39
I hope the keycap at thumb cluster are Slanted/Controured like Kinesis. Based on my experience on Kinesis (Slanted/Contoured) and Maltron (Same height DSA), Same height on these keys will make them awkward to type on. You might mistype more often
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:12:13
I hope the keycap at thumb cluster are Slanted/Controured like Kinesis. Based on my experience on Kinesis (Slanted/Contoured) and Maltron (Same height DSA), Same height on these keys will make them awkward to type on. You might mistype more often
nope their not their all flat
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:15:43
I hope the keycap at thumb cluster are Slanted/Controured like Kinesis. Based on my experience on Kinesis (Slanted/Contoured) and Maltron (Same height DSA), Same height on these keys will make them awkward to type on. You might mistype more often
nope their not their all flat
Guess I will swap them out with my spare Kinesis ABS caps then. :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:16:58
I hope the keycap at thumb cluster are Slanted/Controured like Kinesis. Based on my experience on Kinesis (Slanted/Contoured) and Maltron (Same height DSA), Same height on these keys will make them awkward to type on. You might mistype more often
nope their not their all flat
Guess I will swap them out with my spare Kinesis ABS caps then. :(
ill probably be getting WASD Caps to i can get my layout on it once i decide what it is
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:17:23
Btw, they said they will add international shipping costs later today. But if I see the ten dollars to ship to Canada, I wonder how much it will be to Germany... :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:19:39
Btw, they said they will add international shipping costs later today. But if I see the ten dollars to ship to Canada, I wonder how much it will be to Germany... :(
not cheaps wouldnt be cheap for me to do really either
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 20 January 2013, 00:23:14
Btw, they said they will add international shipping costs later today. But if I see the ten dollars to ship to Canada, I wonder how much it will be to Germany... :(
not cheaps wouldnt be cheap for me to do really either

Damn, this will be an expensive keyboard :-D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 20 January 2013, 02:18:57
Massdrop assembly time lapse video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 20 January 2013, 02:22:22
Massdrop assembly time lapse video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)


that is not very useful in any way...
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 20 January 2013, 02:26:49
Massdrop assembly time lapse video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)


that is not very useful in any way...
I think you can see the aluminium look better than in the picture. It seems to be more shiny than I initially thought.
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sun, 20 January 2013, 02:45:01
I think you can see the aluminium look better than in the picture. It seems to be more shiny than I initially thought.

I would have phrased it "glitters like Edward Cullen in the sunlight", but shiny would also be a word for it.  :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sun, 20 January 2013, 03:19:06
I made a poll on Massdrop about what profile the community would prefer for the keycaps.

https://www.massdrop.com/vote/78 (https://www.massdrop.com/vote/78)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: figit090 on Sun, 20 January 2013, 04:52:52
I'm interested in this but I'd like to see what people think of it, and I can't afford $200 right now.  I also wouldn't know what switch to choose because I've only tried one type, and it is my simple alps board.

Will it possibly be available again in the future, or be developed more?  Great work, it looks awesome!

Also, no function keys?  why not?

No function keys because the keyboard is multi layered. That is, there are "fn" keys that allow you to access secondary/tertiary layers for things like numpad etc.

As of this writing, macro capability is not in the firmware, but I believe that it will be in the cards at a later date.

Cheers,

Oh makes sense, thanks. 

I'm interested in this but I'd like to see what people think of it, and I can't afford $200 right now.  I also wouldn't know what switch to choose because I've only tried one type, and it is my simple alps board.

You can order it without switches ($44 cheaper) so hopefully it will be only $155  and decide later on switches and keycaps. This way you'll have more options (reds, browns) that aren't offered here, and will have time to raise some more funds for those parts.

Quote
Will it possibly be available again in the future, or be developed more?

It might be available in the future, but it will probably be more expensive since the quantities ordered will be lower.
My guess it that the thing that will developed more is the firmware.

Basically, if you really like it and think you might be miserable if you miss it, get it during this GB, otherwise wait :-)

Good thinking, hopefully it continues to be made I love the innovation of non-standard keyboards.  I hate straight designs.  while I'm used to it, they're horrible ergonomically.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Sun, 20 January 2013, 08:00:18
Does anyone know if the keycap gb on massdrop if for one ergo dox hand or both ergodox hands (ie. do you have to buy 2 sets or 1 set of keycaps to outfit the left and the right hand of the ergodox)?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sun, 20 January 2013, 08:03:11
Does anyone know if the keycap gb on massdrop if for one ergo dox hand or both ergodox hands (ie. do you have to buy 2 sets or 1 set of keycaps to outfit the left and the right hand of the ergodox)?
It would be very dumb if it would be for one hand only.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Sun, 20 January 2013, 08:04:58
Does anyone know if the keycap gb on massdrop if for one ergo dox hand or both ergodox hands (ie. do you have to buy 2 sets or 1 set of keycaps to outfit the left and the right hand of the ergodox)?
It would be very dumb if it would be for one hand only.

Yeah I agree.  But look at the pic on massdrop's site....it's only the pic of one hand.  Plus the description doesn't mention how many keycaps you are getting.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Sun, 20 January 2013, 09:47:08
Does anyone know if the keycap gb on massdrop if for one ergo dox hand or both ergodox hands (ie. do you have to buy 2 sets or 1 set of keycaps to outfit the left and the right hand of the ergodox)?
It would be very dumb if it would be for one hand only.

Yeah I agree.  But look at the pic on massdrop's site....it's only the pic of one hand.  Plus the description doesn't mention how many keycaps you are getting.

On the other hand on ergodox kit group buy is also photo only one hand but kit includes both :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Sun, 20 January 2013, 15:24:49
Finally, I have ordered everything to build my ergodox!!!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Sun, 20 January 2013, 16:05:12
I'm still a little indecisive about case material, so far, I've planned on getting the aluminum case, however, after seeing the pictures I feel it needs some kind of treatment to look proper. Leaning to brushed at the moment, as it should be somewhat simple (I have no prior experience), and I love the look of brushed aluminum. Anodized would be a possibility, if I can find somewhere local to get it done for a decent price, but in any case, it wouldn't be as cheap as brushing it myself.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: asura on Sun, 20 January 2013, 16:13:13
Be aware that if you brush it yourself, you'll most likely (almost certainly) lift of the clear anodising that one hopes will have been applied.

Since we don't know exactly which aluminium alloy they've used (?) we can't be sure, but assume the worst, that it will react with oxygen, sulphur or both and will start to show a patina.  Aluminium oxidises, it just doesn't form a corrosive oxide such as rust, but a pacification layer, however, it isn't always pretty.

Or it could be fine.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 20 January 2013, 17:27:40
I was wondering about getting mine anodized too, once it arrives.  Hopefully some of my engineer friends will be able to point me towards a local place.. :) .

I just added everything up, for fun - all the parts I've been gathering since the prototype phase and the parts I just ordered from Massdrop, enough to build ~4 boards (the prototype one not having a proper case) - and I estimate it cost ~$330 a board, all included (even keycaps).  That's what shipping from every different place and low quantity ordering will do I suppose, lol - the Massdrop buy is looking like a good deal to me :) .

Also, does anyone have any idea where one could get 1.5x translucent (similar to this (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/657120/Pics/Mechanical%20Keyboard%20Stuff/DCS%20R1%20-%20Clear%20ABS.jpg) (this (http://keycapsdirect.com/images/Clearkeycaps.jpg)) or this (http://keycapsdirect.com/images/key-caps/translucentpckeys.jpg) type) DCS Row 2 keycaps outside this possible group buy (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31404.0)?  Or alternately, is there an elegant way of making the indicator LEDs easily visible with opaque keycaps?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 20 January 2013, 19:26:07
Be aware that if you brush it yourself, you'll most likely (almost certainly) lift of the clear anodising that one hopes will have been applied.

Since we don't know exactly which aluminium alloy they've used (?) we can't be sure, but assume the worst, that it will react with oxygen, sulphur or both and will start to show a patina.  Aluminium oxidises, it just doesn't form a corrosive oxide such as rust, but a pacification layer, however, it isn't always pretty.

Or it could be fine.
Aluminium anodyzing oxidizes the aluminium, this protective layer helps to make it strong. One of the purposes of the anodyzing is to make the oxide layer thicker, for better scratch resistance, etc. If you remove it (by brushing or whatever) it'll naturally re-form a thin oxide layer that with thicken with time as diffusion occurs, though it'll not be as thick as an anodyzed layer. In my experience, the impurities in the air are not sufficient to discolour the aluminium when this happens.


If you get SP white PBT, indicator LED's will be easily visible though it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:17:26
i think i've decided i'm getting two of these things now, no wrist rest though i am going to make my own. This really could become the only keyboard i really use, even though i'm buying/building an army of keyboards its still possible and i rather not kick myself for not having 2. Credit card bill be damned!

i really hope someone has a key-cap group buy or something with double shots with cool design or something, almost want to figure out how to do it myself, i really don't think i can do the blanks and i'm not impressed with wasd,. Still getting the blanks but i may have to make labels to learn like training wheels.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:19:57
i really hope someone has a key-cap group buy or something with double shots with cool design or something, almost want to figure out how to do it myself, i really don't think i can do the blanks and i'm not impressed with wasd,. Still getting the blanks but i may have to make labels to learn like training wheels.
Same here. I will join the Massdrop blank key cap group buy, but for the long run I really want some labeled key caps.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:28:47
im going to get my layout run By WASD but im sure not everyone is going to like my layout so that the only way.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:36:50
i know someone said wasd was willing to do some ergodox thing too, and that's great, they are super quick with their custom stuff, great support, great site, good colors, highly suggested seller but i'm just not impressed with wasd key-caps feel personally, maybe if they started doing pbt but the problem is they are as slippery new as my kinesis freestyle caps are after 3 years of constant use. i have those types of hands that sweat horribly and i must sweat acid because pretty much all my printed keycaps, even on my new boards, are either faded or completely gone hence why i want dysub or double shot.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:39:39
well id love dyesub PBT but like I said how many people want the same layout usually you need a bunch for a GB
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Mon, 21 January 2013, 00:56:02
Be aware that if you brush it yourself, you'll most likely (almost certainly) lift of the clear anodising that one hopes will have been applied.

Since we don't know exactly which aluminium alloy they've used (?) we can't be sure, but assume the worst, that it will react with oxygen, sulphur or both and will start to show a patina.  Aluminium oxidises, it just doesn't form a corrosive oxide such as rust, but a pacification layer, however, it isn't always pretty.

Or it could be fine.

I'll keep that in mind before setting too much in motion. Hey, if it looks good enough in person, I might just leave it as is.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:10:26
I've just gotten off chat with massdrop about the keycaps - it's for both sides of the keyboards, and its being done by Signature Plastics, it will be 'DSA, PBT, Blank and black.'

I'm not familiar with how SP works, but I imagine a lot of the geekhackers are familiar with them. Maybe we can contact them in the future to get something done about printed keycaps?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:23:27
Not sure I'd be up for a full printed cap set - since I'm going to be changing the layout on the board over time/use.  I'd be up for a partial print set (primary alpha/numeric keys) with some blanks for the more obvious keys that will be modified by individual users.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:31:12
that will be the main problem with printed keycaps on the ergodox - I imagine everyone has their own ideal layout that they will tweak over time. I'm having the same idea of printed alpha numeric keys and leaving the rest blank. In fact I'm totally fine with an all blank set up, although now I'm thinking of using the alphanumeric keys from Klaxon 2.0 on it when it arrives.

just throwing the information out there for those who might want to do something with it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:52:22
know what the outside pinky keys size are are the 1.5 or 1.25?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:54:16
1.5 afaik
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 01:56:44
1.5 afaik
thanks im going to try to make a template to design layouts on easier

Edit: never mind i found something I can just modify on their webpage
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TotalChaos on Mon, 21 January 2013, 02:12:21
i know someone said wasd was willing to do some ergodox thing too, and that's great, they are super quick with their custom stuff, great support, great site, good colors, highly suggested seller but i'm just not impressed with wasd key-caps feel personally, maybe if they started doing pbt but the problem is they are as slippery new as my kinesis freestyle caps are after 3 years of constant use.
Embrace the slipperiness.  Slippery keycaps are your friend  ;D

My WASDkeyboards.com keycaps feel completely normal to me.  They do not feel like POM at all.


Quote
i have those types of hands that sweat horribly and i must sweat acid
It sounds to me like you have the exact same hands as I have.
Do you get hand pain when you write on paper with a ballpoint pen?

Are your hands hot?  Or were they hot when you were a kid?
When you were in school on a freezing cold day, did all the girls want you to feel on them with your hands because your hands were so warm?


Quote
because pretty much all my printed keycaps, even on my new boards, are either faded or completely gone hence why i want dysub or double shot.
How long did your WASD keycaps last before the legends were destroyed?
Or did you not really type on the WASD keycaps due to the "slipperiness"?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 21 January 2013, 04:34:44
How long did your WASD keycaps last before the legends were destroyed?
Or did you not really type on the WASD keycaps due to the "slipperiness"?

i used them for about 2 weeks and then went back to the PBT keycaps. i put a few of them on my board when i want to create a vomit board but yeah whatever. http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/2012-12-03%2017.58.49.jpg

however if wasd is the only way to go for printed ergodox keys, then ill consider them for the non-alpha numeric keys, which like others have discussed will be custom to whatever layout i use.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 04:49:36
Did some basic layout jizzle jazzle mish mash and turns out i need 2 Fn layers and most of my keys will have 4 legends
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Mon, 21 January 2013, 04:50:47
Did some basic layout jizzle jazzle mish mash and turns out i need 2 Fn layers and most of my keys will have 4 legends

So many legends! I would go insane!
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 05:13:00
Did some basic layout jizzle jazzle mish mash and turns out i need 2 Fn layers and most of my keys will have 4 legends

So many legends! I would go insane!
so 3 for alphas 4 for some others and on 1-2 for some.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 21 January 2013, 09:12:28
1.5 afaik
thanks im going to try to make a template to design layouts on easier

Edit: never mind i found something I can just modify on their webpage

I cleaned up their layout image for this reason, too - http://i.imgur.com/0DFgS.png
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Mon, 21 January 2013, 09:49:13
Since the keyboard is fully programmable, is chording possible?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 21 January 2013, 10:40:51
No current firmware supports chording, but needless to say it's mostly just an AVR MCU connected to a switch matrix.  If you have the skills (or can pay someone with them) you can get whatever you want.

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 21 January 2013, 11:18:55
Hey guys, quick GUI update:

I have been chatting with ic07 about possibly doing a web based UI as opposed to a Windows application (I have work done on the latter, but the former I believe would best serve the whole community). I have tried getting in contact with Dox about having him grant us access to a page on ergodox.org but to no avail. If anyone has the ability to host such an application and would be willing to give either/both of us some control over a page to design, implement and test such a UI could you please send either ic07 or I a pm? We would greatly appreciate it.

We would need to have access to and be able to run the following:

python
javascript
gcc or some other c compiler for generating .hex/.eep files to be served back to the users.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 21 January 2013, 11:31:35
You'll need gcc-avr to get the right output, btw.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:40:44
Is it possible that Massdrop has deleted my account? I can not sign in, and when I try to reset my password, it tells me that there is no account tied to my email address.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:41:39
Is it possible that Massdrop has deleted my account? I can not sign in, and when I try to reset my password, it tells me that there is no account tied to my email address.

I was literally about to make this post. Exactly the same for me.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:42:46
I was literally about to make this post. Exactly the same for me.
This is especially annoying since they basically have my money.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:43:55
I was literally about to make this post. Exactly the same for me.
This is especially annoying since they basically have my money.

I haven't placed an order yet (I was waiting for the alu case pictures), but you've actually placed an order and they've removed account? Sounds rough  :eek:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:44:46
Considering that they seem to be doing web changes on their live site concurrent with on-going group buys, this is likely to just be a glitch.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:50:33
It's back on!  :p

For a moment I thought they could make the whole site to be an incredible scam, they basically could have taken almost 100*200$ from the preorders and such.  :cool:
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 21 January 2013, 15:58:08
I have more faith in them.  They've done multiple successful group buys.  I don't think they'd spend the time and effort with vendors/fabricators/support to walk away with only $20k.  /myOpinion
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 21 January 2013, 16:08:50
Hey litster--what are the dimensions of the case extension on the wrist-rest model?

I'm trying to see if I can find a squishy pad with a footprint that will fit in that area. And actually, on the bright side, If such a pad actually exists then the protruding screws will be a godsend because they'll keep the pads in place! I'm excited.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Mon, 21 January 2013, 16:37:54
I have more faith in them.  They've done multiple successful group buys.  I don't think they'd spend the time and effort with vendors/fabricators/support to walk away with only $20k.  /myOpinion
No, I trust them as well, it just occured to me that the business model and the way transactions are handled are pretty optimal for obtaining unearned money. I'm taking notes in case I want to create my own scam site later in life.  ;D :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 21 January 2013, 17:09:02
Ergodox complete! Just put in the 100th order myself :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Mon, 21 January 2013, 17:14:34
Lowest price unlocked!
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 17:16:04
Ergodox complete! Just put in the last order myself :D
i can still order on right i finally got money.
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dgsbllx on Mon, 21 January 2013, 17:16:45
Ergodox complete! Just put in the last order myself :D
i can still order on right i finally got money.


Yes the buy is still running, but its at the lowest price point now.
Title: Re: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 17:17:46
Ergodox complete! Just put in the last order myself :D
i can still order on right i finally got money.


Yes the buy is still running, but its at the lowest price point now.
gotcha i assumed that but people always make it sound like their out.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 21 January 2013, 21:00:49
1.5 afaik
thanks im going to try to make a template to design layouts on easier

Edit: never mind i found something I can just modify on their webpage
I cannot wait for your template, you always have such good ideas for what to put on the function layer.

I also haven't ordered yet, but I will soon.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 21:39:01
I am in the process of uploading my blank templates here (http://tinyurl.com/a9ckj2b), feel free to use them for your own planning.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 21 January 2013, 21:47:19
I just noticed something. If you look at this picture, the keyboard stands on the screw nut?
Not really good for the desk.. I assume this is the same for the acrylic case?
So after all I do need feet!  :(

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/product-82-rudi.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 21:52:44
I just noticed something. If you look at this picture, the keyboard stands on the screw nut?
Not really good for the desk.. I assume this is the same for the acrylic case?
So after all I do need feet!  :(

Show Image
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/massdropinc/product-images/product-82-rudi.jpg)

yep thats what it looks like. Im going to have to find some thick feet and apply some egrips to them
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 21 January 2013, 22:52:52
oh wow yeah looks like it would tear up my cheap desk.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 21 January 2013, 22:56:22
So after all I do need feet!  :(

I was thinking about getting different screws, and chamfering the holes (as kerplop suggested) - or just putting some sugru (or oogoo, or just silicon sealant - or yoga matt.. lol) over them :) .

I am in the process of uploading my blank templates here (http://tinyurl.com/a9ckj2b), feel free to use them for your own planning.

If it helps, the original template file (drawn in Inkscape), and the QWERTY layout file (generated from that) are attached :) .  I posted these before, but they might have gotten buried in the thread...  The generated template files for all the current default layouts are in the .zip files with the binaries here (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bbol6fkvydmtmg/QLudrdEyc9).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 21 January 2013, 22:59:47
So after all I do need feet!  :(

I was thinking about getting different screws, and chamfering the holes (as kerplop suggested) - or just putting some sugru (or oogoo, or just silicon sealant - or yoga matt.. lol) over them :) .
Yeah, I just had the same thought. Chamfering should be possible, even with the acrylic case. I just have to be careful.
The easier solution would probably be to just put some soft anti-slide-material or something like that below the keyboard - similar to what you suggested I guess.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 21 January 2013, 23:13:08
So after all I do need feet!  :(

I was thinking about getting different screws, and chamfering the holes (as kerplop suggested) - or just putting some sugru (or oogoo, or just silicon sealant - or yoga matt.. lol) over them :) .

I am in the process of uploading my blank templates here (http://tinyurl.com/a9ckj2b), feel free to use them for your own planning.

If it helps, the original template file (drawn in Inkscape), and the QWERTY layout file (generated from that) are attached :) .  I posted these before, but they might have gotten buried in the thread...  The generated template files for all the current default layouts are in the .zip files with the binaries here (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bbol6fkvydmtmg/QLudrdEyc9).

thanks man, just realized your the one that I was told to get in contact with about firmware. im looking to get hasu's firmware ported to the ErgoDox
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 21 January 2013, 23:16:21
Just got bought my two
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Mon, 21 January 2013, 23:57:45
(I just posted this over in the Massdrop GB thread, but I'm not sure who is watching just one thread or the other.  If it's bad form to cross-post between threads, my apologies (and please tell me so))

I've been going back and forth between aluminum and acrylic.  How careful would a person need to be with the acrylic case?  Would it be fragile, or would I just need to avoid smashing it with hammers?  Would it become more brittle over time?

Thanks for any help people can provide;  I know basically nothing about plastics.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Tue, 22 January 2013, 00:18:11
It really depends on the type of acrylic being used - how it was made (extruded or cell casted), and whether its the premium stuff (I doubt so, since this would drive up the costs - and the current prices are really good).

Basically, I'm guessing it would be easily scratched, and I'd avoid dropping it from a great height. It wouldn't break apart sitting on your desktop at least. Unless maybe you nerdrage extremely hard.

If it was the aluminium case, I'd avoid dropping it on your toes. That thing looks heeeavy.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 22 January 2013, 00:40:51
Acrylic is a fingerprint and dust magnet, and scratches easier. I just got an answer on the aluminum, it's 5052 grade which is pretty common aluminum for machining. It's a little cheaper than other other common alum 6061-T6. Also it doesn't look like it's anodized or have any special finishes:

Quote
Hi WhiteFireDragon,

This is aluminum 5052 with a raw finish. We prefer to keep all the Q&A on Massdrop so everyone who's interested in the ErgoDox can have the benefit of seeing the discourse right on the group buy page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 01:12:47
thanks man, just realized your the one that I was told to get in contact with about firmware. im looking to get hasu's firmware ported to the ErgoDox

np :)

It shouldn't be too hard to port, if you know about such things.  From looking into it briefly, it looks like you'd want to implement code for common/keymap.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/keymap.h), common/led.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/led.h), and common/matrix.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/matrix.h), in a folder in the keyboard subdir (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/tree/master/keyboard).  There are other keyboard implementations in that folder to serve as examples, and my controller init and matrix scanning code (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/controller) (and maybe my simple I2C (aka TWI) implementation (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/master/src/lib/twi)) should prove useful regarding how the ErgoDox is set up (and how to use I2C).

Just out of curiosity, why are you looking into porting?  I can think of a couple good technical and social reasons one might want to, but I'm still curious :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 22 January 2013, 02:27:29
thanks man, just realized your the one that I was told to get in contact with about firmware. im looking to get hasu's firmware ported to the ErgoDox

np :)

It shouldn't be too hard to port, if you know about such things.  From looking into it briefly, it looks like you'd want to implement code for common/keymap.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/keymap.h), common/led.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/led.h), and common/matrix.h (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/common/matrix.h), in a folder in the keyboard subdir (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/tree/master/keyboard).  There are other keyboard implementations in that folder to serve as examples, and my controller init and matrix scanning code (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/controller) (and maybe my simple I2C (aka TWI) implementation (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/master/src/lib/twi)) should prove useful regarding how the ErgoDox is set up (and how to use I2C).

Just out of curiosity, why are you looking into porting?  I can think of a couple good technical and social reasons one might want to, but I'm still curious :)
NKRO, media keys, mouse buttons, and i believe mouse control :D I would like all those things in  my ErgoDox
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 02:44:32
NKRO, media keys, mouse buttons, and i believe mouse control :D I would like all those things in  my ErgoDox

Lol, yup, stuff I won't have time for for a while - thanks :)

Also, I'm on my phone right now, so I can't really link, and I'm sure you'd find it soon anyway, but.. I forgot to mention my matrix.h, in the dir above the controller files - you'll probably need that too, as it defines the mapping from actual key positions to positions in the matrix.

Happy porting!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 22 January 2013, 02:53:26
NKRO, media keys, mouse buttons, and i believe mouse control :D I would like all those things in  my ErgoDox

Lol, yup, stuff I won't have time for for a while - thanks :)

Also, I'm on my phone right now, so I can't really link, and I'm sure you'd find it soon anyway, but.. I forgot to mention my matrix.h, in the dir above the controller files - you'll probably need that too, as it defines the mapping from actual key positions to positions in the matrix.

Happy porting!
Ill have to see if I can find someone to port it for me then as I have nearly 0 experience coding
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 22 January 2013, 05:43:16
I made a spreadsheet in Gnumeric to make layout tinkering easier -- e.g., this is the layout I've just about settled on for my Layer 0:

[attachimg=1]

Why the Tab and Shift in the middle? Because Alt-Tab! :) The other middle keys on the right-hand half are Lock toggles because that's where the indicator LEDs are. I might yet want to put Shift in both lower-middle keys to try thumb-shifting anyway, and move Caps Lock elsewhere if the indicator LED status can be independent of the key it's under.

Anyway, here's my spreadsheet file in Gnumeric and Excel formats:
Notice I duplicated the layout template to additional blank worksheet tabs for Layers 1-3, so you can just switch between sheets within the file to tinker with your desired layout on each layer. ;D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 22 January 2013, 07:36:59
NKRO, media keys, mouse buttons, and i believe mouse control :D I would like all those things in  my ErgoDox

Lol, yup, stuff I won't have time for for a while - thanks :)

Also, I'm on my phone right now, so I can't really link, and I'm sure you'd find it soon anyway, but.. I forgot to mention my matrix.h, in the dir above the controller files - you'll probably need that too, as it defines the mapping from actual key positions to positions in the matrix.

Happy porting!
Ill have to see if I can find someone to port it for me then as I have nearly 0 experience coding

We all need to start somewhere Prof.!

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 22 January 2013, 08:28:26
NKRO, media keys, mouse buttons, and i believe mouse control :D I would like all those things in  my ErgoDox

Lol, yup, stuff I won't have time for for a while - thanks :)

Also, I'm on my phone right now, so I can't really link, and I'm sure you'd find it soon anyway, but.. I forgot to mention my matrix.h, in the dir above the controller files - you'll probably need that too, as it defines the mapping from actual key positions to positions in the matrix.

Happy porting!
Ill have to see if I can find someone to port it for me then as I have nearly 0 experience coding

We all need to start somewhere Prof.!

Cheers,
No time with building
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Tue, 22 January 2013, 08:35:40
I made a spreadsheet in Gnumeric to make layout tinkering easier -- e.g., this is the layout I've just about settled on for my Layer 0:

(Attachment Link)

Why the Tab and Shift in the middle? Because Alt-Tab! :) The other middle keys on the right-hand half are Lock toggles because that's where the indicator LEDs are. I might yet want to put Shift in both lower-middle keys to try thumb-shifting anyway, and move Caps Lock elsewhere if the indicator LED status can be independent of the key it's under.

Anyway, here's my spreadsheet file in Gnumeric and Excel formats:
Notice I duplicated the layout template to additional blank worksheet tabs for Layers 1-3, so you can just switch between sheets within the file to tinker with your desired layout on each layer. ;D
Thank for the file!

Mine will be something like below. Almost same layout as my current Kinesis
(http://i.imgur.com/R8UPzdi.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 22 January 2013, 09:10:40
I should have my layout up soon :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 12:17:35
I made a spreadsheet in Gnumeric to make layout tinkering easier -- e.g., this is the layout I've just about settled on for my Layer 0:

(Attachment Link)

Why the Tab and Shift in the middle? Because Alt-Tab! :) The other middle keys on the right-hand half are Lock toggles because that's where the indicator LEDs are. I might yet want to put Shift in both lower-middle keys to try thumb-shifting anyway, and move Caps Lock elsewhere if the indicator LED status can be independent of the key it's under.

Anyway, here's my spreadsheet file in Gnumeric and Excel formats:
Notice I duplicated the layout template to additional blank worksheet tabs for Layers 1-3, so you can just switch between sheets within the file to tinker with your desired layout on each layer. ;D

Just FYI, the default shift keys are also set up so that when you press both at the same time, it activates CapsLock - if that makes a difference :) .  Also, the LED indicators are completely independent of what keys are assigned where, so that won't be a problem.  Getting a Fn-lock key to activate an LED is a bit advanced, but it shouldn't be hard... to skip the long explanation, you'll probably have to write a quick wrapper function for the LED control function, so that you can call it within a macro key - or wait till the UI comes out, and we might remember to put the option in there (I'd say we *would*, but it could be a while from now...).  Or ask when you have the rest of the layout working after the buy, and I'll see if it's as easy as I think :) .

Ill have to see if I can find someone to port it for me then as I have nearly 0 experience coding

Mmm... and this wouldn't be the easiest place to start (lol, my firmware exists, more or less, because I didn't know enough to port hasu's to the ErgoDox when I started).  Now that I looked at it a bunch, I'm slightly tempted to try - but there are likely to be parts that aren't so fun (adapting yet another default layout, for everyone to use as a template, for instance), and I still have a bunch of improvements I want to make to my own, so I hope you understand if it's rather far down on my list...  If anyone else wants to try they're quite welcome to of course :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 22 January 2013, 12:26:57
Just FYI, the default shift keys are also set up so that when you press both at the same time, it activates CapsLock - if that makes a difference :) .

Nice.  Think I like that activation method.  I've long since remapped my Caps to LControl, and used Shift + Caps to enable the CapsLock.  Think I like this better, though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:07:54
(stands back and lets everyone else figure this all out lol)

I really want to get my hands on this thing NOW!  now that i'm thinking about layouts it just makes me want this thing more. I think i may even call out the day this thing arrives.

playing with my kinesis freestyle to figure out anything i liked about it, it has a pretty normal ANSI layout just split. I like having space bars on both hands, something i don't see in these layouts. I also like embedded number pad.

Am i the only one that wants to embed a HHKB style arrow keys in the ergodox LOL

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:10:56
I want to embed cursor keys, too - but on jkl; and home, end, page up/down on esdf...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:13:05
Am i the only one that wants to embed a HHKB style arrow keys in the ergodox LOL

Nope! I already did something similar with bpiphany's filco liberation controller in my filco--arrow keys right on right-hand home row. Planning on doing the same for ergoDox :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:38:55
Am i the only one that wants to embed a HHKB style arrow keys in the ergodox LOL

Nope! I already did something similar with bpiphany's filco liberation controller in my filco--arrow keys right on right-hand home row. Planning on doing the same for ergoDox :D

I can't imagine *not* doing this.  It's how my Kinesis Advantage is mapped too.  Navigation keys and all sorts of odd programming symbols surrounding the home row.  And, of course, it's part of why I'll be adding a foot pedal (or two!) for switching layers on my Ergodox  :)

I'm not exactly sure yet how I'll be attaching the foot pedals, but I'm thinking that I'll just use electronic piano sustain pedals and be able to easily plug and unplug them from a dongle coming out of the 'board.

I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this thing!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 22 January 2013, 13:50:27
I've got "hjkl" dir keys on the right hand home row and programming symbols easily accessible, all on layer one. Works out fairly well.

Having just one space key is nice because one the other side can be bs+del. But maybe that's just a sign that I need to become a more precise typist.

Here's my layout:

(http://i.imgur.com/qTVVUH5.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 22 January 2013, 14:08:50
I made a spreadsheet in Gnumeric to make layout tinkering easier -- e.g., this is the layout I've just about settled on for my Layer 0:

(Attachment Link)

Why the Tab and Shift in the middle? Because Alt-Tab! :) The other middle keys on the right-hand half are Lock toggles because that's where the indicator LEDs are. I might yet want to put Shift in both lower-middle keys to try thumb-shifting anyway, and move Caps Lock elsewhere if the indicator LED status can be independent of the key it's under.

Anyway, here's my spreadsheet file in Gnumeric and Excel formats:
Notice I duplicated the layout template to additional blank worksheet tabs for Layers 1-3, so you can just switch between sheets within the file to tinker with your desired layout on each layer. ;D

Just FYI, the default shift keys are also set up so that when you press both at the same time, it activates CapsLock - if that makes a difference :) .  Also, the LED indicators are completely independent of what keys are assigned where, so that won't be a problem.  Getting a Fn-lock key to activate an LED is a bit advanced, but it shouldn't be hard... to skip the long explanation, you'll probably have to write a quick wrapper function for the LED control function, so that you can call it within a macro key - or wait till the UI comes out, and we might remember to put the option in there (I'd say we *would*, but it could be a while from now...).  Or ask when you have the rest of the layout working after the buy, and I'll see if it's as easy as I think :) .

Ill have to see if I can find someone to port it for me then as I have nearly 0 experience coding

Mmm... and this wouldn't be the easiest place to start (lol, my firmware exists, more or less, because I didn't know enough to port hasu's to the ErgoDox when I started).  Now that I looked at it a bunch, I'm slightly tempted to try - but there are likely to be parts that aren't so fun (adapting yet another default layout, for everyone to use as a template, for instance), and I still have a bunch of improvements I want to make to my own, so I hope you understand if it's rather far down on my list...  If anyone else wants to try they're quite welcome to of course :)

I suppose it's something we should consider. Yeah, no definite timeframe yet on when it would be available via UI.
As for porting another firmware ic07, you sure you don't have enough on your plate yet?

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 15:15:05
As for porting another firmware ic07, you sure you don't have enough on your plate yet?

Lol, I already have too much - hence the "rather far down on my list", as in, prioritized after my firmware, and helping with the UI, and if I get to it...  Sorry to anyone if I phrased my opinion too enthusiastically o_o .
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: amidwinter on Tue, 22 January 2013, 15:27:09

Here's my layout:

This might be a stupid question, but what do "la" and "sh" mean on your layout? I'm guessing "la" refers to layer switching, but I have no idea for "sh". Shift?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 22 January 2013, 16:16:07
Yeah sh = shift. So "sh {[" corresponds to holding shift and pressing the {[ key on a standard keyboard, resulting in {
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: amidwinter on Tue, 22 January 2013, 16:49:21
Yeah sh = shift. So "sh {[" corresponds to holding shift and pressing the {[ key on a standard keyboard, resulting in {

Oh okay, thanks. What do the "la" keys do? Hold them to change layers? What is the difference between "la 2 + 2" and "la 2 +- 2"?

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Tue, 22 January 2013, 16:55:07
Aloisius, you would save a lot of pinky strain by moving a shift key to the thumb cluster, especially since your layout seems to rely heavily on it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 22 January 2013, 17:18:36
Just FYI, the default shift keys are also set up so that when you press both at the same time, it activates CapsLock - if that makes a difference :) .  Also, the LED indicators are completely independent of what keys are assigned where, so that won't be a problem.  Getting a Fn-lock key to activate an LED is a bit advanced, but it shouldn't be hard...

Good to know about the double-Shift = Caps Lock feature; looks like I can try thumb-Shifting after all! So just curious, what will each of the LEDs be mapped to indicate in the current firmware layouts you're providing? Anything at all, or yet to be determined/implemented?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 22 January 2013, 17:38:15
Yeah sh = shift. So "sh {[" corresponds to holding shift and pressing the {[ key on a standard keyboard, resulting in {

Oh okay, thanks. What do the "la" keys do? Hold them to change layers? What is the difference between "la 2 + 2" and "la 2 +- 2"?

Thanks for your help.

If I understand correctly, "la" indicates a layer modifier key, and a "+1" would effectively work as a Layer 1 Lock (pushing Layer 1 on top of the layout stack) -- and you'll see in the current default Layer 1 layout that the same key becomes a "-1" to release the lock and return to the previous layer (popping Layer 1 off the layout stack) -- whereas a "+-1" would be a Layer 1 Shift, where Layer 1 is only active while the key is held. If my understanding here is incorrect, this definitely needs clarification.

I'm not quite clear what the first number after the "la" refers to or whether it's related to the layer number being pushed (applied) or popped (removed) -- if so, the first and second numbers might always need to match?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 22 January 2013, 18:21:57
Aloisius, you would save a lot of pinky strain by moving a shift key to the thumb cluster, especially since your layout seems to rely heavily on it.

The layout generated is not optimal in this regard. Those keys with "sh" on them have shift programmed in when you press them. So to get a {, I only have to press L1+Q. I could also press L1+sh+F (what would be E on a QWERTY), but as you said that's not ideal.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 18:28:08
So just curious, what will each of the LEDs be mapped to indicate in the current firmware layouts you're providing? Anything at all, or yet to be determined/implemented?

The LEDs are currently (by default) (from top to bottom): NumLock, CapsLock, and Scroll Lock.

If I understand correctly, "la" indicates a layer modifier key, and a "+1" would effectively work as a Layer 1 Lock (pushing Layer 1 on top of the layout stack) -- and you'll see in the current default Layer 1 layout that the same key becomes a "-1" to release the lock and return to the previous layer (popping Layer 1 off the layout stack) -- whereas a "+-1" would be a Layer 1 Shift, where Layer 1 is only active while the key is held. If my understanding here is incorrect, this definitely needs clarification.

I'm not quite clear what the first number after the "la" refers to or whether it's related to the layer number being pushed (applied) or popped (removed) -- if so, the first and second numbers might always need to match?

The first number after the "la" refers to the ID of the element on the layer stack that you're pushing/popping.  So, when you "la 1 + 1", you push an element with ID = 1 and layer = 1 onto the stack (so, you'll now be typing on layer 1).  When you "la 1 - 1" what you're really doing would be better described as "la 1 -" (without the last "1"): you're popping the element with ID = 1 off the stack, wherever it is, and whatever it contains.  You can only have one element on the stack with a given ID at a given time, but you can have as many elements pointing to a given layer as you like.

I may change parts of this later, if I think I can make the concept more clear...  The basic gist of things should remain the same though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 22 January 2013, 18:32:45
Thanks for the info ic07, I too was wondering about that first number. Is there a limit to the IDs?

edit: Is it 10 at the moment? That looks like it's arbitrary and one could write more kbfun_layer_push/pop fns and corresponding lpush/lpop macros.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 19:03:37
Thanks for the info ic07, I too was wondering about that first number. Is there a limit to the IDs?

:) .  In the current firmware, i have the IDs arbitrarily limited to 1 through 10, and the maximum number of active layers arbitrarily limited to 20.  The technical limits are somewhat higher - they're mostly bounded by the amount of available PROGMEM and SRAM.

I'm changing this a bit in the rewrite (which won't be available till at least a little after the group buy, but maybe longer - it's hard to predict).  I plan to remove the limitation on IDs (due to a design change).  The limit on active layers will probably still be there, but it'll likely be very easy to change.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 22 January 2013, 19:12:15
In practice though, how many simultaneous layers will most people need?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 22 January 2013, 19:43:14
20 layers? ErgoL33tDox
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 20:21:09
Lol. I'd be curious to see what anyone was doing with more than 5. I think the default layout is using 4 right now. But I wanted things to be flexible...  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Tue, 22 January 2013, 21:17:03
20 layers? ErgoL33tDox

Layers within layers... ErgCeptionDox
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Tue, 22 January 2013, 21:18:19
any more than 4, and you'd get stuck in Limbo.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Tue, 22 January 2013, 22:01:04
In my layout I will try to include German Umlaute as well as some Japanese special keys.
But with that I will start when my ErgoDox is up and running. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 22 January 2013, 22:32:15
I'm planning on at least two separate layers: one for arrow keys under right-hand home row, and one for numpad under right-hand home row. I think that's about all I need.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 22:48:44
My idea was, locking layer masks could be used to change the function of just a few keys at a time...  Say if you wanted a few things set up one way when you were working in.. I dunno, Word, and another way when using something else.  It should also be possible, with a little effort, to use them to emulate firmware level combination keys (though, I don't think there's enough room to emulate chording...).  How it'll work out in practice, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 22 January 2013, 23:02:44
With further firmware development, would it be possible to achieve remapping from the keyboard itself (like the Kinesis Advantage does) without flashing new firmware every time?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 January 2013, 23:36:16
With further firmware development, would it be possible to achieve remapping from the keyboard itself (like the Kinesis Advantage does) without flashing new firmware every time?

Possible, yes. Practicle, I'm still not sure.  I started the partial rewrite I'm working on now because I wanted to make it easier to implement just that.  But then I started talking to OJ about the UI, which got me thinking.. if we make a good UI, what is a realistic use case for on-keyboard remapping?  Especially bearing in mind that it will be necessarily limited (I haven't run the math, but it might be possible to remap 1 layer's worth of keys or so, maybe a little less, or alternately program something like 40 or 80 keystrokes worth of macros - just to give a general idea).

Edit: There's also a small (hopefully, lol) chance I'll run into issues with EEPROM accesses slowing down the scan rate too much - but I won't be worried about that unless I see it happening.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 23 January 2013, 00:39:12
A UI to remap the keyboard would be great, especially if it could be run locally (not off the Internet). For instance, on my ubuntu machine, I'd love to be able to remap keys or build layouts on a UI (from a locally running webserver, or it could be a TK, or PyQT, or standalone Java application, or whatever), hit a button, and have the UI call the commands to compile as well as call the teensy command-line utility (http://pjrc.com/teensy/loader_cli.html) to load the firmware on the keyboard, all in one shot. That would be almost as good as the instant gratification that on-board remapping provides :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 January 2013, 01:54:05
Disclaimer (to everyone):  Please oh please bear in mind that all things UI are speculation at the moment.  Especially from me, since all of it is OJ's call.  ty :-) .  With that in mind:

My current thoughts are that we'll have an SVG/javascript interface, maybe a Python (or whatever's convenient) CGI script, and the AVR GCC toolchain set up - that the JS and Python will, between them, somehow, generate C code - and that this C code will then be compiled, and the binaries served to the user.  I imagine we'll have our code up on github, for collaborative purposes if nothing else.  And *if* I'm right about all these things, I can't see you having any difficulty running the UI on a local server, with a modified backend script that also flashes your Teensy :-) .
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 23 January 2013, 03:03:12
My idea was, locking layer masks could be used to change the function of just a few keys at a time...  Say if you wanted a few things set up one way when you were working in.. I dunno, Word, and another way when using something else.  It should also be possible, with a little effort, to use them to emulate firmware level combination keys (though, I don't think there's enough room to emulate chording...).  How it'll work out in practice, I'm not sure.

That's a pretty cool idea!!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Wed, 23 January 2013, 03:41:17
MD has put up PCB only, case only and switches only GB. For those still looking to get just the PCB or case only might be a good news.

$22/PCB (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-pcb)
$80/pair (acrylic left & right side) (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-case)
$5.90/pack of 10 (blue/red/black plate mount only) (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/cherry-mx)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 23 January 2013, 03:55:29
No I wonder if I should only get one, but buy both cases. Damn, I'm so bad if there are many choices and they just keep adding more..
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Wed, 23 January 2013, 04:13:38
You could in theory get 1 complete kit with aluminium case + additional acrylic case to mixed up the layers if you feels like it. Only the plate layer is non swappable after all components are soldered on. :D
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 23 January 2013, 04:29:29
you cant get both cases for one board you would have to resolder/desolder for the different plates


now that i think about it you might because to use the same plate as they are the same thickness between the 2
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 23 January 2013, 05:24:12
you cant get both cases for one board you would have to resolder/desolder for the different plates


now that i think about it you might because to use the same plate as they are the same thickness between the 2
Ah, but I was talking about full hand and classic case and you are right-for that I would need to desolder.
So two keyboards after all
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mSSM on Wed, 23 January 2013, 05:46:17
I am about to join the Massdrop GB myself, and I am a bit confused about the mounting of the switches:
As I understand it, the design of the keyboard supports both, PCB- and plate-mounted switches. What are we going to get? From the assembly instructions [1] I get that we have to solder the switches to the PCB - i.e. we will get switches with PCB-mounting pins.

However, dorkvader wrote in his mass email:
The PCB supports PCB mounted switches. The mounting plate supports phantom-style easy switch removal.

What exactly does that mean now? Why would I not be able to get the full-hand and classic case and just swap the PCB in between without de-soldering?

EDIT: Also, what color do those LEDs have at the moment? I couldn't find anything on Massdrop's page pertaining to color.

1: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Wed, 23 January 2013, 05:55:41
^ I think the problem is a layer of the case is the plate. So if you don't use the plate, you're missing a layer of the case.
But I would figure you could still swap, and the one layer would just have a gap on the classic hand.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 23 January 2013, 05:59:20
I am about to join the Massdrop GB myself, and I am a bit confused about the mounting of the switches:
As I understand it, the design of the keyboard supports both, PCB- and plate-mounted switches. What are we going to get? From the assembly instructions [1] I get that we have to solder the switches to the PCB - i.e. we will get switches with PCB-mounting pins.

However, dorkvader wrote in his mass email:
The PCB supports PCB mounted switches. The mounting plate supports phantom-style easy switch removal.

What exactly does that mean now? Why would I not be able to get the full-hand and classic case and just swap the PCB in between without de-soldering?

EDIT: Also, what color do those LEDs have at the moment? I couldn't find anything on Massdrop's page pertaining to color.

1: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
they only have plate mount switches which is fine because there is a plate
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Wed, 23 January 2013, 06:06:39
you cant get both cases for one board you would have to resolder/desolder for the different plates


now that i think about it you might because to use the same plate as they are the same thickness between the 2
Ah, but I was talking about full hand and classic case and you are right-for that I would need to desolder.
So two keyboards after all

Litster has a design which you could just swap easily between a full hand and a classic case wihout the need to desolder/resolder to swap the plates. The one included in the GB doesn't come with that option, but it is still doable via some modification to the full hand case. You can overlay the classic plate layer on top of the full hand plate layer and trim out the area covered by the overlayed classic plate layer. At the end of it you will get a 2 piece plate layer that fits on both classic and full hand. Additional screw holes for securing the modified layers is needed, if necessary.

For acrylic, after the modification. You could apply hand polish using dry sanding + wet sanding (time consuming) on the side of the cut or use a blow torch to flame polish, if you know how to work with acrylic.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 23 January 2013, 11:19:34
lhere is the current mess revision of my ErgoDox layout

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)

and yes i know most of this stuff isnt possibly unless i find a way to get hasu's firmware on the thing.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 23 January 2013, 12:01:41
i hope that kind of stuff is possible. i really hope these get shipped in February or i am gonna burst.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Wed, 23 January 2013, 12:46:45
lhere is the current mess revision of my ErgoDox layout

and yes i know most of this stuff isnt possibly unless i find a way to get hasu's firmware on the thing.
Nice blueprint you got there. Since I am used to the truly ergonomic keyboard I will probably have the enter
and backspace keys in the middle or on the thumbs.  Generally don't like pressing keys with my pinky...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 January 2013, 13:21:14
and yes i know most of this stuff isnt possibly unless i find a way to get hasu's firmware on the thing.

If you want mouse keys before someone does that, it seems like they should be emulatable in software (I've only done a cursory search, but the results looked hopeful). And I think (but can't confirm at the moment) that media keys are just a matter of finding the right keycodes... (mute, vol+, and vol- are standard, and work already, on my Mac at least).

I know there are other features hasu's firmware has that mine doesn't at the moment, but I don't see them on the layout.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Wed, 23 January 2013, 13:26:58
lhere is the current mess revision of my ErgoDox layout

and yes i know most of this stuff isnt possibly unless i find a way to get hasu's firmware on the thing.
Nice blueprint you got there. Since I am used to the truly ergonomic keyboard I will probably have the enter
and backspace keys in the middle or on the thumbs.  Generally don't like pressing keys with my pinky...
Yea I dont regularly use ergonomic keyboards and have mostly non ergonomic so i set it up so it would be semi easy to transition between them
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 23 January 2013, 13:27:34
Media keys require special handling.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 January 2013, 14:53:05
Media keys require special handling.

Oh grr. Thanks. I'll have to look into it sometime later then.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 23 January 2013, 14:58:54
I'll be using the dvorak-kinesis layout... I already compiled and loaded the firmware on a Teensy 2.0 I already have! Can't really tell if it works, all I can do is stare at the teensy :-)
On my ubuntu machine I first had to do:
sudo apt-get install gcc-avr binutils-avr avr-libc

I neglected avr-libc at first, and got errors about some header files misssing, which was resolved after I installed it.

All the info is of course here:  http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/gcc.html

I also had to install the /etc/udev/rules.d/49-teensy.rules file, which basically has these 2 lines uncommented:
SUBSYSTEMS=="usb", ATTRS{idVendor}=="16c0", ATTRS{idProduct}=="04[789]?", MODE:="0666"
KERNEL=="ttyACM*", ATTRS{idVendor}=="16c0", ATTRS{idProduct}=="04[789]?", MODE:="0666", ENV{ID_MM_DEVICE_IGNORE}="1"

Anyway, I'm going to go to Radio Shack and get a piezo buzzer, and try to get it to click from the teensy. I *really* want to have my ErgoDox click like my Kinesis does, hopefully I can make it happen and then we can add the code to the ergodox firmware.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 23 January 2013, 18:16:48
ic07 / Dox/ bpiphany:
Would the controller/firmware somehow be able to support a piezo speaker to emit a click sound (like the Kinesis Advantage, and a few other keyboards do) when a key registers ?  If anyone has an idea what mod / extra components might be needed, let me know... I like the audible feedback, but if not possible I might go with cherry MX blues I guess.

We have at least 3 pins not being used on the Teensy in the current design, and 2 of them have PWM.  I'd probably try pin PC7 (on TCCR4 for PWM), though PD5 or PD4 might be more convenient if you don't need PWM.  And changing main() a bit to run the code to generate a click when a key is pressed shouldn't be hard at all.  Others are probably much more knowledgable as to the hardware setup, and how easy/hard it might be to drive a piezo speaker using a Teensy.

PS: Also, be sure to explicitly set the state of whatever pins you do use - IIRC, the init code in the controller .c files touches all the pins, so it'd be better not to count on them starting in any default state.

Ok ic07,
I just got a "Piezo Mini Buzzer", RadioShack 273-0074 which produces a 4KHz sound as long as you apply DC voltage to it. It supports anywhere from 3 to 16 volts. I hooked it up to pin C7 of my teensy, and used PJRC's blinky sample program to drive it... I just changed (PORTD |= (1<<6)) to (PORTC |= (1<<7)) to drive the appropriate pin instead of the built-in LED of the teensy.
I'll have to find a 2.4KHz buzzer so it sounds closer in pitch to the Kinesis, but the RadioShack one proves the concept.

So it works, no need for PWM or tone libraries. Basically all we need the firmware to do is turn on the voltage to the assigned pin on every keypress, and turn it off after 10 miliseconds or so. Only caveat is the controller shouldn't be sleeping during that time; it should accept the next keypress even if it comes before the buzzer pin voltage is turned off. Also, even if you hold a key down, the click should last the same amount of time and not longer.
Finally, if you press a key, keep it down, and then press another key (like when shifting) both key presses should click. Basically the click should emulate clicky switches.

Is it doable ic07 ?  I'm sure we can easily turn on a pin upon any keypress, but how do you turn it off after a fixed amount of miliseconds without sleep() ?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 23 January 2013, 19:01:30
ic07 / Dox/ bpiphany:
Would the controller/firmware somehow be able to support a piezo speaker to emit a click sound (like the Kinesis Advantage, and a few other keyboards do) when a key registers ?  If anyone has an idea what mod / extra components might be needed, let me know... I like the audible feedback, but if not possible I might go with cherry MX blues I guess.

We have at least 3 pins not being used on the Teensy in the current design, and 2 of them have PWM.  I'd probably try pin PC7 (on TCCR4 for PWM), though PD5 or PD4 might be more convenient if you don't need PWM.  And changing main() a bit to run the code to generate a click when a key is pressed shouldn't be hard at all.  Others are probably much more knowledgable as to the hardware setup, and how easy/hard it might be to drive a piezo speaker using a Teensy.

PS: Also, be sure to explicitly set the state of whatever pins you do use - IIRC, the init code in the controller .c files touches all the pins, so it'd be better not to count on them starting in any default state.

Ok ic07,
I just got a "Piezo Mini Buzzer", RadioShack 273-0074 which produces a 4KHz sound as long as you apply DC voltage to it. It supports anywhere from 3 to 16 volts. I hooked it up to pin C7 of my teensy, and used PJRC's blinky sample program to drive it... I just changed (PORTD |= (1<<6)) to (PORTC |= (1<<7)) to drive the appropriate pin instead of the built-in LED of the teensy.
I'll have to find a 2.4KHz buzzer so it sounds closer in pitch to the Kinesis, but the RadioShack one proves the concept.

So it works, no need for PWM or tone libraries. Basically all we need the firmware to do is turn on the voltage to the assigned pin on every keypress, and turn it off after 10 miliseconds or so. Only caveat is the controller shouldn't be sleeping during that time; it should accept the next keypress even if it comes before the buzzer pin voltage is turned off. Also, even if you hold a key down, the click should last the same amount of time and not longer.
Finally, if you press a key, keep it down, and then press another key (like when shifting) both key presses should click. Basically the click should emulate clicky switches.

Is it doable ic07 ?  I'm sure we can easily turn on a pin upon any keypress, but how do you turn it off after a fixed amount of miliseconds without sleep() ?

I haven't gone fully into the code and I'm new to doing any coding for the Teensy, but assuming you start the buzzer within the "is pressed" check section of the main loop (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/main.c line 90):
Code: [Select]
if (is_pressed != was_pressed) {
    if (is_pressed) {
        ...
    } else {

In addition to starting the buzzer (if it hasn't been already started), set an elapsedMillis special variable type to 0 there.  You can then check the elapsedMillis value somewhere within the main scanning for loop. If the value is over target time, stop the buzzer. Throw a check in place to make sure you're not stopping the buzzer every scan cycle and I think you'd be golden. It would only activate on key down, and should only last as long as the target time plus one scan cycle at the greatest. I think he mentioned something like 160Hz scan cycles before, so assuming 10ms, then it could be 10-16ms long. Not perfect, but probably as good as you're going to get without adversely affecting the actual keyboard functions.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 23 January 2013, 20:01:31
Thanks mate! Having the firmware source code is going to be fun. BTW anyone have experience with this Sparkfun pointing device ?
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835

Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: inaneframe on Wed, 23 January 2013, 20:37:30
And I'm in!   :p

Almost didn't make it, I was thinking about this keyboard so I dropped in to see it only 4 days from completing the buy in, WOW!

Are there going to be more group buys after the initial one?  If I like the first build, I'll be buying two more.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 January 2013, 20:53:51
It looks like elapsedMillis is something only available in Teensyduino?  Even in the Arduino reference (http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage) I can only find mills() and friends.  I'm not using either set of libraries though, which means, if you wish to time things without busy-waiting, you'll need to do something with the Teensy timers directly.

Alternately: If it were me, I'd try reducing the debounce time to 0 (it's currently 5ms), and then just timing the click by busy-waiting with _delay_ms() (in <util/delay.h>).  The downside of this is that, when a key is pressed, it will take 10ms *after each key* to detect the next one (instead of only delaying 5ms after each cycle where a keypress was detected, plus ~5ms between cycles, mostly due to I2C).  The upside is not having to deal with timers (or pull in Arduino dependencies...), and I think it would be bearable under normal usage.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 23 January 2013, 21:03:08
How about I blindly just turn off the buzzer every 2 cycles of the main loop? That should make any clicks last 6 to 12ms without any busy waits? Anyway, no worries, I'll play with it when I get the keyboard, thank you all!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 23 January 2013, 21:19:13
A UI to remap the keyboard would be great, especially if it could be run locally (not off the Internet). For instance, on my ubuntu machine, I'd love to be able to remap keys or build layouts on a UI (from a locally running webserver, or it could be a TK, or PyQT, or standalone Java application, or whatever), hit a button, and have the UI call the commands to compile as well as call the teensy command-line utility (http://pjrc.com/teensy/loader_cli.html) to load the firmware on the keyboard, all in one shot. That would be almost as good as the instant gratification that on-board remapping provides :-)

Sordna,

     I have been torn on this very issue. Unfortunately, I do not feel comfortable and I don't have any confidence in writing a Java UI, because, well, programming a UI in Java is just bad [no seriously, it is]. So, for me, that removes the possibility of easily coding a cross-platform local UI (I'm not familiar enough with python UI programming although I'm aware it's a possibility. Maybe in a secondary release? I'll consult with ic07). Therefore, after talking with ic07, I believed it would be wiser to have a Web based UI. Now, if you'd like to have a local copy, I'm sure it can be arranged that we release the code to you. That being said, my goal would be that the UI will only generate [read: compile and return a download link for the layout file, meaning it's ready to be flashed] the a layout based off of a file you upload to the server (you would be provided a new download link for any modifications), or the ic07 default.

     I'm open to suggestions, but please note that any changes in course from here on out would mean further delays in bringing forth a decent product.

Cheers,

To me this makes the most logical sense and would be a good first step to serving everyone, especially those who are not Windows users or don't have access to a Windows VM to mess with a layout.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 23 January 2013, 23:17:00
It looks like elapsedMillis is something only available in Teensyduino?  Even in the Arduino reference (http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage) I can only find mills() and friends.  I'm not using either set of libraries though, which means, if you wish to time things without busy-waiting, you'll need to do something with the Teensy timers directly.

Alternately: If it were me, I'd try reducing the debounce time to 0 (it's currently 5ms), and then just timing the click by busy-waiting with _delay_ms() (in <util/delay.h>).  The downside of this is that, when a key is pressed, it will take 10ms *after each key* to detect the next one (instead of only delaying 5ms after each cycle where a keypress was detected, plus ~5ms between cycles, mostly due to I2C).  The upside is not having to deal with timers (or pull in Arduino dependencies...), and I think it would be bearable under normal usage.

Yeah, now that I look at the page carefully, it is for the Teensyduino. I should have checked the page more thoroughly before assuming the feature was native (especially considering my newness to the whole platform). Oh well, Sorry for getting your hopes up for a (mostly) easy solution sordna! ;) Digging deeper (and likely getting ahead of myself), it seems theoretically possible to use interrupts and timers to do it. Set Timer1 for a given length. Create a TIMER1_COMPA_vect ISR that disables the speaker and the mask for the interrupt. Enable the mask immediately after the speaker has been turned on. Profit? lol...

Also, OrangeJewce, I'm not sure if you've missed it, but you have a PM.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 January 2013, 23:24:18
How about I blindly just turn off the buzzer every 2 cycles of the main loop? That should make any clicks last 6 to 12ms without any busy waits? Anyway, no worries, I'll play with it when I get the keyboard, thank you all!

Lol that might work too. Awesome :-). Curious to see what you come up with :-).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Thu, 24 January 2013, 03:17:56
I'm a developer, and I say go with a web UI for the interface for platform support.

If the js in the UI could generate the contents of the required layout files on its own, then that would be a good start for people who want to compile at home. I edited the layout files by hand and that was the most time-consuming part.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 24 January 2013, 06:58:53
It looks like elapsedMillis is something only available in Teensyduino?  Even in the Arduino reference (http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage) I can only find mills() and friends.  I'm not using either set of libraries though, which means, if you wish to time things without busy-waiting, you'll need to do something with the Teensy timers directly.

Alternately: If it were me, I'd try reducing the debounce time to 0 (it's currently 5ms), and then just timing the click by busy-waiting with _delay_ms() (in <util/delay.h>).  The downside of this is that, when a key is pressed, it will take 10ms *after each key* to detect the next one (instead of only delaying 5ms after each cycle where a keypress was detected, plus ~5ms between cycles, mostly due to I2C).  The upside is not having to deal with timers (or pull in Arduino dependencies...), and I think it would be bearable under normal usage.

Yeah, now that I look at the page carefully, it is for the Teensyduino. I should have checked the page more thoroughly before assuming the feature was native (especially considering my newness to the whole platform). Oh well, Sorry for getting your hopes up for a (mostly) easy solution sordna! ;) Digging deeper (and likely getting ahead of myself), it seems theoretically possible to use interrupts and timers to do it. Set Timer1 for a given length. Create a TIMER1_COMPA_vect ISR that disables the speaker and the mask for the interrupt. Enable the mask immediately after the speaker has been turned on. Profit? lol...

Also, OrangeJewce, I'm not sure if you've missed it, but you have a PM.

Hey,

     Sorry, I have a few to sort through. I'm also working 12 hour days right now, so my ability to make big decisions is impacted by the time I actually get home (And I don't really like answering pms whilst at work.) Not to mention the significant other taking up most of it anyhow. I promise to get to everyone this weekend and thank you for the support. I apologize for the delay in reply to pm.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Thu, 24 January 2013, 12:50:40
Hey,

     Sorry, I have a few to sort through. I'm also working 12 hour days right now, so my ability to make big decisions is impacted by the time I actually get home (And I don't really like answering pms whilst at work.) Not to mention the significant other taking up most of it anyhow. I promise to get to everyone this weekend and thank you for the support. I apologize for the delay in reply to pm.

Cheers,

No problem on the delay OrangeJewce, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some issue preventing the message from properly going through / being noticed.

Now, ic07, going back to the millisecond variable type being a teensyduino thing... wouldn't it be possible to emulate the functionality using timer1 and interrupts? If you set the ISR to increment a volatile shared variable every millisecond, it should basically be the same thing. The main code could then reference that variable to find out elapsed time.  Possibly overkill for just a buzzer, but potentially useful for future macro capability? At least assuming (Seriously, I have to work my way around a profanity filter for that? *sigh*) that the macro capability would have programmable delays between key sends. It's really just a matter of how much the interrupt would interfere with performance. I won't have a Teensy to mess around with until the MD group buy starts shipping, so I can't really test anything yet myself. If it were too impacting, a coarser grained interrupt period could be used (say a centisecond instead).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 24 January 2013, 14:51:15
So, you got me reading now... lol :-) .  I'll have to stop soon though, as I have paperwork chores to do, and the firmware rewrite (at least) to finish before I go playing with timers...  But it looks like you're right :-) except that I'm using Timer 1 for PWM on the LEDs, so Timer 3 is probably what we want.

It would be useful for lots of stuff - hold-to-lock / press-to-shift keys, for instance :D .  And from a design standpoint, the "right" way to do things is probably to base all time sensitive stuff off interrupts (or at least time delay measurements; a constant busy-wait debounce time is a blatant hack, no matter how easily we can get away with it, since it doesn't account for the scanning and processing time)... I just haven't gotten to it yet.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Thu, 24 January 2013, 16:06:46
Yeah, I understand that a lot of this was basically hacked together and not exactly "ideal". I can't blame you in the least though, as my pet projects often end up the same way.  ;D Hack together stuff that works until it meets my needs, then go back and redo everything in a more efficient way while taking into account what I've learned on the way. Perhaps not as efficient as doing it the "right way" the first time around, but certainly more interesting (less sitting and planning).
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 24 January 2013, 16:57:18
Lol.  In defense of other portions of my hackiness though: I think it could be argued that 8-bit microprocessors themselves are somewhat of a hack... ^^
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Thu, 24 January 2013, 18:07:22
Nah, they're just retro.

But yeah, I've been working with higher level libraries and stupidly powerful PCs for so many years now that when going to something like the Teensy, everything seems like a bit of a hack. Still, that's fun in it's own right. Heck, I had plenty of fun in the class I had on RISC (MIPS) based assembly - not that would want to do any major / real world project in it.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 24 January 2013, 19:53:43
ic07 are you going to be able to implement everything thats in my layout?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Thu, 24 January 2013, 23:32:06
In order to implement the media keys and mouse movement, he'd have to add another couple of HID endpoints / report descriptors. Basically the project stops being just a keyboard. Instead it becomes a keyboard, a mouse, and a kind of generic "consumer control device" that'd support the audio and transport controls. So technically he'd be "able" to, as in there's nothing technically stopping it.  Depending on the amount of time he has to dedicate to the project, and his understanding of the underlying concepts, it might be awhile before you see that functionality though. At this point I think he's focusing more on the actual keyboard aspect.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 24 January 2013, 23:55:38
Zalusithix is quite right.  I'd like to get those things into the firmware at some point, if I can, but it'll likely be quite a while before I'm able to try again.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Fri, 25 January 2013, 00:05:01
Zalusithix is quite right.  I'd like to get those things into the firmware at some point, if I can, but it'll likely be quite a while before I'm able to try again.
ok well can you make the rest work until then?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Fri, 25 January 2013, 00:43:02
TheProfosist, you're in luck! The rest already works! All you have to do is edit the qwerty-kinesis-mod.c (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c) file with your layout, then compile the firmware. Easy peasy, and ic07 doesn't have to do anything else.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 25 January 2013, 11:52:02
Also, while not a native solution, you might be able to use something like AutoHotkey to emulate the functionality. This is running on the assumption that AHK can detect the key codes the system itself is ignoring and then reissue commands the system actually listens to.

Alternatively, when there's macro support, you can have a single key send a sequence (win-alt-somethingoranother etc) that AutoHotkey can most certainly intercept and use.

Neither solution is as nice as having it all baked in at a firmware level, but it should at least allow you to get some semblance of what you want while the firmware continues to mature.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:18:56
I am about to join the Massdrop GB myself, and I am a bit confused about the mounting of the switches:
As I understand it, the design of the keyboard supports both, PCB- and plate-mounted switches. What are we going to get? From the assembly instructions [1] I get that we have to solder the switches to the PCB - i.e. we will get switches with PCB-mounting pins.

However, dorkvader wrote in his mass email:
The PCB supports PCB mounted switches. The mounting plate supports phantom-style easy switch removal.

What exactly does that mean now? Why would I not be able to get the full-hand and classic case and just swap the PCB in between without de-soldering?

EDIT: Also, what color do those LEDs have at the moment? I couldn't find anything on Massdrop's page pertaining to color.

1: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
As the profosist said, Massdrop will have plate mounted switches. Another member (I believe it was rkinze) said that even with the acrylic plate, the switches should be pretty sturdy, as the stabilizing pins on the PCB-mount switches serve to help orient the switch (so it can't twist). I haven't seen anyone make claims to typing feel though.

So the Massdrop switches will not have mounting pins, but that's okay if you plan to use the plate, which is included in the $200 full kit (and required for the case, as it is an integral part)

To explain my quote:
In mist plate mounted keyboards, there is no "room" to unclip the top of the switch housing in the mounting plate. To replace a switch, you need to desolder it. If you want to change springs or stems you need to desolder. This plate supports the removal of the switch tops without desoldering (Room has been made in the mounting plate for the switches to unclip) so should you want to replace a defective switch, or change springs or whatever, you can do that.

I am by no means certain, but I'm fairly sure that you'd need to desolder to swap the PCB into a different case like that, though it might be possible to detach the switch-bottoms from the mounting plate after soldering, it' certainly won't be easy.

About the LED's I haven't checked, but I think I read somewhere (on DT) that they are red.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken about something here, I get a little fuzzy this late at night sometimes.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:38:42
Wait the leds are red? I need to confirm this so i can offer whit as an option then.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:47:10
would some ergodox guy help me defining the keys needed for this http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39603.0 ?

would you prefer blank mods or with legend? if the latter, is there a "default" configuration?

thanks
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:48:39
would some ergodox guy help me defining the keys needed for this http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39603.0 ?

would you prefer blank mods or with legend? if the latter, is there a "default" configuration?

thanks

Perhaps you can use the massdrop mock up to determine what's needed?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:52:40
sorry I thought they were all blank keys. I'll check it out.
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:56:07
sorry I thought they were all blank keys. I'll check it out.

Oh my, I thought you meant just for sizing, not legends. Sorry bout that.
Title: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 26 January 2013, 02:57:17
sorry I thought they were all blank keys. I'll check it out.

Oh my, I thought you meant just for sizing, not legends. Sorry bout that.

I think it may be hard to choose a default considering how different every board may be. Perhaps just a set with main layer legend, since second layer would probably be different on every board.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 26 January 2013, 09:13:14
no legends is fine for an ergodox add on :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 26 January 2013, 10:06:13
do you need some letter in 1.5 unit?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sat, 26 January 2013, 10:16:10
Below is layout from dox.
(http://i.imgur.com/0DFgS.png)


But mine is below (talk from a Kinesis user perspective), As close as to Kinesis layout. I think the middle 6 X 1.5 keys can leave blank. For the modifier keys like -, \, ' will be a bit tricky. Someone might not like Kinesis placement of these keys at all. By the way, I dont mind All the 1.5X to be all blank. I think most ergodox user are touch typist right? Or i am wrong :S
(http://i.imgur.com/R8UPzdi.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 26 January 2013, 10:18:33
hers min v1.1 iim working on v1.2 as we speak but there will only be small tweaks

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Matt3o on Sat, 26 January 2013, 10:58:51
thank you guys, I'll review your layouts and try to make an ergo dox compatible set
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 26 January 2013, 11:36:33
hers min v1.1 iim working on v1.2 as we speak but there will only be small tweaks

Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)


im kind fo digging this but if i am reading correctly you cant do a CTRL+END / CTRL+HOME etc combination with your layout, am i correct?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sat, 26 January 2013, 11:39:45
hers min v1.1 iim working on v1.2 as we speak but there will only be small tweaks

Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)


im kind fo digging this but if i am reading correctly you cant do a CTRL+END / CTRL+HOME etc combination with your layout, am i correct?
you can

Ctrl+Home or Ctrl+Fn1+Home

I usually carry mods or other important keys to the next layer
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 26 January 2013, 11:39:46
The Control location on the Kinesis layout is very good, trust me. So is the backspace. Do yourself a favor and don't put often use keys in your pinkies.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 27 January 2013, 05:16:49
hers min v1.1 iim working on v1.2 as we speak but there will only be small tweaks

Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)


the layout looks very cool.

I wonder how difficult it is to program my own set of keys. I am a non-programmer and may find difficulty implementing my own design.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sun, 27 January 2013, 05:40:04
The Control location on the Kinesis layout is very good, trust me. So is the backspace. Do yourself a favor and don't put often use keys in your pinkies.
Yes. Save your pinkies!
Even with Kinesis layout and remap shift to thumb keys. My left pinky still sore. :(
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 27 January 2013, 08:42:47
hers min v1.1 iim working on v1.2 as we speak but there will only be small tweaks

Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/TheProfosist/GeekHack/GH-sub-mine/ErgoDoxProfv11_zpsd5059e37.png)


the layout looks very cool.

I wonder how difficult it is to program my own set of keys. I am a non-programmer and may find difficulty implementing my own design.
same here
Title: Re: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheProfosist on Sun, 27 January 2013, 08:43:48
The Control location on the Kinesis layout is very good, trust me. So is the backspace. Do yourself a favor and don't put often use keys in your pinkies.
Yes. Save your pinkies!
Even with Kinesis layout and remap shift to thumb keys. My left pinky still sore. :(
do some pinky exercises? Idk ive never had a problem with my pinky's though im no speed typer.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 27 January 2013, 12:33:16
the layout looks very cool.

I wonder how difficult it is to program my own set of keys. I am a non-programmer and may find difficulty implementing my own design.
same here

Um, let's try to remove large images from quotes of quotes to avoid all the page scrolling :-)

There has been talk of a web service that will allow you to design and generate your layout... however until that happens, I'm sure many folks here will be willing to compile firmwares for you guys. I plan to compile my own firmware since I'll be using switches with integrated diodes, which need a modification in the code.

To help with custom layouts, at minimum we need a GUI program that allows folks to design the layout and generate the .c file. I think OJ has something for windows. Anyway, if we have any kind of program that generates the layout file, even if there is no web service to generate the firmware, any of us that have a development environment set up would be able to easily compile a firmware for you.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 27 January 2013, 13:10:22
the layout looks very cool.

I wonder how difficult it is to program my own set of keys. I am a non-programmer and may find difficulty implementing my own design.
same here

Um, let's try to remove large images from quotes of quotes to avoid all the page scrolling :-)

There has been talk of a web service that will allow you to design and generate your layout... however until that happens, I'm sure many folks here will be willing to compile firmwares for you guys. I plan to compile my own firmware since I'll be using switches with integrated diodes, which need a modification in the code.

To help with custom layouts, at minimum we need a GUI program that allows folks to design the layout and generate the .c file. I think OJ has something for windows. Anyway, if we have any kind of program that generates the layout file, even if there is no web service to generate the firmware, any of us that have a development environment set up would be able to easily compile a firmware for you.

I have some pms that I intend to reply to today regarding the web service. I have been extremely constrained for free time as I have had to work at least partial weekends now. In fact I'm working on something for my job right now. It has been mentioned that a cross-platform, python based local UI is another option. I think I've decided for now to stick with the web service, and will be contacting you who pmed me regarding hosting today. I need to see where ic07 is at as well so we can get ducks in a row for this.

ic07's rewrite will make compiling your own source much easier than it used to be, given that a UI may not arrive in time for when you all first receive your kits. You won't need a development environment to generate your own layouts, just cygwin with gcc to compile the edited .c to create the .eep and .hex that will be necessary for flashing via the teensy firmware utility, which is linux and windows compatible.

Cheers,
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 27 January 2013, 22:53:45
Has anyone checked with Mass Drop what legs are used under the case?  I have not seen any picture of the underside of the case.  As far as I am concerned, you are ordering ergodox with case with no legs. 

Also, when I designed the case, I didn't account for conductivity with acrylic :-).  Now the same design is made with metal.  I can't tell from the outside how thick the mounting plate is or how many layers make up the mounting plate layer.  It if it is too thick, it could touch the PCB. 

Be careful with your ergodox if you order a metal case.  I am not responsible for any damage :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 27 January 2013, 22:59:30
Massdrop said they won't include any kind of legs/feet. So we need to take care of that by ourselves. :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 27 January 2013, 23:30:17
Hmm, good point about conductivity of the metal case, I guess some duct tape is needed at the points the case meets the PCB.
I'm going with acrylic case for another reason.... to easily drill holes for arcade buttons (palm keys) :-)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 27 January 2013, 23:47:05
Careful when drilling acrylic.  It can easily crack.  And the drill bit can bite into the material and spin the whole piece out of control.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 28 January 2013, 00:19:48
I am about to join the Massdrop GB myself, and I am a bit confused about the mounting of the switches:
As I understand it, the design of the keyboard supports both, PCB- and plate-mounted switches. What are we going to get? From the assembly instructions [1] I get that we have to solder the switches to the PCB - i.e. we will get switches with PCB-mounting pins.

However, dorkvader wrote in his mass email:
The PCB supports PCB mounted switches. The mounting plate supports phantom-style easy switch removal.

What exactly does that mean now? Why would I not be able to get the full-hand and classic case and just swap the PCB in between without de-soldering?

EDIT: Also, what color do those LEDs have at the moment? I couldn't find anything on Massdrop's page pertaining to color.

1: https://www.massdrop.com/dox-ergo.php
As the profosist said, Massdrop will have plate mounted switches. Another member (I believe it was rkinze) said that even with the acrylic plate, the switches should be pretty sturdy, as the stabilizing pins on the PCB-mount switches serve to help orient the switch (so it can't twist). I haven't seen anyone make claims to typing feel though.

So the Massdrop switches will not have mounting pins, but that's okay if you plan to use the plate, which is included in the $200 full kit (and required for the case, as it is an integral part)

To explain my quote:
In mist plate mounted keyboards, there is no "room" to unclip the top of the switch housing in the mounting plate. To replace a switch, you need to desolder it. If you want to change springs or stems you need to desolder. This plate supports the removal of the switch tops without desoldering (Room has been made in the mounting plate for the switches to unclip) so should you want to replace a defective switch, or change springs or whatever, you can do that.

I am by no means certain, but I'm fairly sure that you'd need to desolder to swap the PCB into a different case like that, though it might be possible to detach the switch-bottoms from the mounting plate after soldering, it' certainly won't be easy.

About the LED's I haven't checked, but I think I read somewhere (on DT) that they are red.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken about something here, I get a little fuzzy this late at night sometimes.

If you want to swap between classic and full-hand cases, you'd want to mount the switches in a classic switch plate and solder them into the PCB, then you could always swap that entire "layer", plate and switches and PCB altogether, into the top/bottom layers of the full-hand case, though you'd at least need to add some spacers to the screw holes along the near edge where the full-hand case goes beyond the classic case boundaries.

To clarify the matter of PCB-mount vs. plate-mount switches, they both have circuit pins that get soldered into the PCB. The PCB-mount type just has two extra, plastic pins moulded into the switch body, which fit into corresponding holes in the PCB. This primarily maintains alignment of the switch square with the other switches, but I think the plastic PCB-mount pins are also long enough to be melted down like a rivet head. Anyway, those mounting pins aren't necessary with a plate mount, as the plate maintains switch alignment and takes the brunt of keying force, so the PCB is pretty much just "hanging" off the switches by the solder points without taking any real force. The ErgoDox plate also has cutaways in the switch mounting holes that allow removal of the switch tops without desoldering the switches, e.g. if you want to swap in different springs or stems to effectively turn them into a different type of MX switch.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 28 January 2013, 00:58:08
Be careful with your ergodox if you order a metal case.  I am not responsible for any damage :-)
Anodizing takes care of any potential conductivity problems, and is what I plan on doing with my aluminum version. Other planned mods include countersinking the holes for 100 degree black oxidized torx screws, and relocating the LEDs so they show up through the frame itself. I figure the acrylic is too weak to reliably take the countersinking (heck, even the aluminum might be too thin). As for the LEDs, the acrylic would show any relocation attempts and ruin the clean looks. It might be harder to work with, but aluminum just gives more options for customizing both by being stronger and being opaque so the mods and hack jobs don't show through.

All that will take some time though, so I also will be making an acrylic version to start off with while the aluminum one slowly comes together.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Mon, 28 January 2013, 06:06:17
Acrylic is non-conductive. The only thing you need to take note is statics. Afaik, the components will be grounded when its connected to the pc via usb. Pc doesn't need to be power on, just need to have it plugged into the power socket outlet to complete grounding by the PSU. I would probably ground the components first just to play safe for either acrylic or aluminium case.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: IanM on Mon, 28 January 2013, 08:20:39
I'm extremely late to this and there's only a few hours to go on the massdrop, as time is pressing would anybody be able to answer any of my questions? Thanks!

1) is there going to be an EU group buy for this?

2) how long is the hand rest on the full length case? (or the length of the whole thing from front to back?

3) are backlit keys an option with this PCB?

4) does the controller support 500hz/1000hz ultrapolling for gamers?

5) if no ultrapolling what might be required to implement this as a feature? would it require an alternative controller?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Mon, 28 January 2013, 10:10:51
I'm extremely late to this and there's only a few hours to go on the massdrop, as time is pressing would anybody be able to answer any of my questions? Thanks!

1) is there going to be an EU group buy for this?
2) how long is the hand rest on the full length case? (or the length of the whole thing from front to back?
3) are backlit keys an option with this PCB?
4) does the controller support 500hz/1000hz ultrapolling for gamers?
5) if no ultrapolling what might be required to implement this as a feature? would it require an alternative controller?

1) There was some discussion by 7bit on Deskthority, but nothing definitive
2)
3) No support for backlighting on the PCB
4) http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html <-- see 'Bandwidth' at the bottom of the page
5)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 28 January 2013, 10:31:47
Careful when drilling acrylic.  It can easily crack.  And the drill bit can bite into the material and spin the whole piece out of control.

I've been using these kind of bits to make 30mm diameter holes in my Kinesis Advantage keyboards, to fit arcade buttons. Will it work on the ErgoDox acrylic case? I was assuming it will work, at least much more easily than on the aluminum case, but now you got me worried! What's your advice?

(http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/335327_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 28 January 2013, 12:01:10
Adding on to Regack's reply:

2) "Each side is roughly 3.5lb, 9" tall and 8.5" wide at the widest point." Via the MD comment section (weight is for the aluminum version).

4/5) Leaving aside the HID limitations, the firmware running on the Teensy doesn't perform the scans fast enough to do it anyhow. Not that it really matters... Gamers don't need that level of speed - they just like to think they do. The human body can't respond that quickly, and games will be going at most 120fps on modern gaming monitors. Thus anything beyond 120Hz is overkill. You can't react faster than the screen updates, and at this speed, you can't even react as fast as the screen updates. N-Key rollover would be far more useful than pointlessly fast polling on a keyboard. (And no, the keyboard doesn't have N-Key rollover either as per HID specs.)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 28 January 2013, 12:27:56
(And no, the keyboard doesn't have N-Key rollover either as per HID specs.)

The firmware may not, but the KB and controller are capable of it.  :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 28 January 2013, 12:47:20
(And no, the keyboard doesn't have N-Key rollover either as per HID specs.)

The firmware may not, but the KB and controller are capable of it.  :)

Yeah, and the firmware very well might support it in the future. :) As of right now though, it's pretty a much bog standard USB keyboard with extensive layering capabilities. Add in the macro capabilities later on, and it'll meet the vast majority of usage case scenarios. From there, things like media keys / mouse emulation / n-key are just icing on the proverbial cake.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 28 January 2013, 13:07:24
Update from MD in regards to the metal case / PCB contact issue:
Quote
We will be supplying mylar sheets for insulation between the metal casing and the PCB.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 28 January 2013, 14:09:50
NKRO? No thanks, I don't want NKRO and avoid keyboards with it. Glad this keyboard does not have it. I much rather prefer a keyboard that works on all computers without issues. 6KRO is my preferred capability.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 28 January 2013, 16:30:12
I don't think it would ever be the default firmware due to complications with compatibility. Once everything else is done on the default HID spec firmware though, it could be an interesting offshoot project.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 28 January 2013, 19:08:10
Hasu's firmware has NKRO without special drivers on all major OSs, without giving up bios compatibility, IIRC. I think him and soarer had a thread about it at some point. And hasu's code is up on github (look for the tmk keyboard firmware), but I haven't had time to understand it yet...
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Tue, 29 January 2013, 06:32:29
Woot, I totally missed the ErgoDox group buy on massdrop. :eek: Would have gotten one for sure (more later if satisfactory).

Any ideas if/when the next round will be up? I'm only interested in a complete kit, not individual parts. Ideally including assembly, such as Profosists awesome assembly offer. Anyway, I requested a kit on MD so hopefully will get an email when/if it comes back.

That's what I get for doing other stuff for months (RC helicopters are fun too). ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Tue, 29 January 2013, 07:29:34
Careful when drilling acrylic.  It can easily crack.  And the drill bit can bite into the material and spin the whole piece out of control.

I've been using these kind of bits to make 30mm diameter holes in my Kinesis Advantage keyboards, to fit arcade buttons. Will it work on the ErgoDox acrylic case? I was assuming it will work, at least much more easily than on the aluminum case, but now you got me worried! What's your advice?

Show Image
(http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/335327_lg.jpg)


You got me curious. I went out to the shop this morning and did some tests on different acrylic and polycarbonate sheets I had laying around. I used a step drill, hole saw, forstner bit and standard drill bit to test the drilling properties of each combination. I used a drill press to better control the consistancy of each combination. Unfortunately, most of the plastics were not labeled so my results have left me scratching my bald head regarding your question. When I used a slow speed, to minimize heat, and a slow feed rate, to minimize stress, I had consistently good results. It was also important to back up the sheet with wood to better prevent chipping on the underside.

The problem I had was identifying the plastics. The one that was labeled was Lucite Tuf. It is a modified acrylic and drilled as cooperatively as the polycarbonates. I have however in the past worked with acrylics that have cracked and chipped much more readily.

Conclusion.  I found that the hole saw and forstner bit each cut flawless holes even right next to the edges of the sheets. The step drill worked fine but I was able to crack the piece if I applied to much pressure. I don't think you will have a problem with the step drill if your careful but would recommend testing your method first on a similar piece of material if possible.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Tue, 29 January 2013, 08:11:57
Sorry to ask this here, but does anyone know when they start charging for the orders? I don't see any information about the process after the "group buy" is over.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Tue, 29 January 2013, 08:33:38
I'm guessing here but I doubt they'd send in the orders for the pcb and cases straightaway given how they still have about 3 days before the pcb and case only buys are closed. So I'm guessing at least 3-4 days more before we hear anything regarding payment.

Before the group buy ended, I talked to one of their reps about fulfillment duration and they said after the orders are sent in, it would likely be about 2 weeks  before the items will be ready, 3 weeks if the schedule isn't met. Then they'll have to start sorting and packaging the items into kits and finally sending them out. Seeing the size of the order, I doubt we'll hear anything before a month is up.

Be aware this is just a guess from the bits of information I got here and there. Hopefully they would be able to give us a faster delivery time.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 January 2013, 08:52:18
Woot, I totally missed the ErgoDox group buy on massdrop. :eek: Would have gotten one for sure (more later if satisfactory).

Any ideas if/when the next round will be up? I'm only interested in a complete kit, not individual parts. Ideally including assembly, such as Profosists awesome assembly offer. Anyway, I requested a kit on MD so hopefully will get an email when/if it comes back.

Since they have group buys going on, for the various parts, that are not over yet, I suspect they _might_ be able to accommodate an order for a complete keyboard, so ask them. Even the Profosist's group buy still has 8 days to go.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 January 2013, 08:53:17
Conclusion.  I found that the hole saw and forstner bit each cut flawless holes even right next to the edges of the sheets. The step drill worked fine but I was able to crack the piece if I applied to much pressure. I don't think you will have a problem with the step drill if your careful but would recommend testing your method first on a similar piece of material if possible.

Thank you SO MUCH for your time to test these things out! It's extremely helpful!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: IanM on Tue, 29 January 2013, 10:16:13
Conclusion.  I found that the hole saw and forstner bit each cut flawless holes even right next to the edges of the sheets.

For the sake of those that may not be prepared: Forstners and holesaws can be very troublesome to position and hold accurately if you're using a hand drill, so it's better to use a bench drill if you can when precision is needed. Piloted holesaws are slightly easier to use in a hand drill, but some arbour systems don't hold the saw perfectly rigid so the hole can still end up slightly larger than intended.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 January 2013, 10:20:36
Figures. Yeah, all I have is hand-held drills, hmm. Anyway, this page seems quite helpful for cutting/drilling acrylic, with great photos:

http://www.bcae1.com/plexi.htm
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jedcred on Tue, 29 January 2013, 11:28:20
I'm guessing here but I doubt they'd send in the orders for the pcb and cases straightaway given how they still have about 3 days before the pcb and case only buys are closed. So I'm guessing at least 3-4 days more before we hear anything regarding payment.

Before the group buy ended, I talked to one of their reps about fulfillment duration and they said after the orders are sent in, it would likely be about 2 weeks  before the items will be ready, 3 weeks if the schedule isn't met. Then they'll have to start sorting and packaging the items into kits and finally sending them out. Seeing the size of the order, I doubt we'll hear anything before a month is up.

Be aware this is just a guess from the bits of information I got here and there. Hopefully they would be able to give us a faster delivery time.

Any chance of reopening the group buy for the kit again (or having another), given the board and other part GBs are still going on?  I missed it by a day, geekhack notifications weren't getting to me for some reason for messages or this thread.  Sigh...

Also I'm considering just getting the case, pcb, keys, and keycaps, but at a rough guess that puts me at 196 (assuming I only need one set of keycaps and not two, that part wasn't clear on the MD page), plus the need for the teensy, i/o expander, leds, and diodes (with a handful of other small parts) plus shipping for all those things (sigh again...).  Am I missing anything?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 29 January 2013, 11:36:11
Any chance of reopening the group buy for the kit again (or having another), given the board and other part GBs are still going on?  I missed it by a day, geekhack notifications weren't getting to me for some reason for messages or this thread.  Sigh...

Why don't you send them an email or talk to them on live chat? They might allow extra orders, I'm sure they wouldn't mind the extra profit and besides they haven't ordered the parts yet since they have other GBs going on for the parts.

Quote
Also I'm considering just getting the case, pcb, keys, and keycaps, but at a rough guess that puts me at 196 (assuming I only need one set of keycaps and not two, that part wasn't clear on the MD page), plus the need for the teensy, i/o expander, leds, and diodes (with a handful of other small parts) plus shipping for all those things (sigh again...).  Am I missing anything?

No, but you are illustrating that the keyboard kit is a good deal, since it's 199 + 35 for keycaps = $234. It's going to be hard to get all the missing parts including shipping for under $50 or $60. Contact them about getting a full kit, even though you are late, and let us know what they say!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: cancelx on Tue, 29 January 2013, 13:07:32
Is there any possibility of joining the group buy? I have totally missed the massdrop one and now I'm crying :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 29 January 2013, 13:14:23
This is not a GB, the MD buy is the only one that has been initiated.  Just contact MD directly, they will likely let you order the complete board since they have parts GBs running beyond this date.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jedcred on Tue, 29 January 2013, 13:14:48

Why don't you send them an email or talk to them on live chat? They might allow extra orders, I'm sure they wouldn't mind the extra profit and besides they haven't ordered the parts yet since they have other GBs going on for the parts.


I just did, and a Will there was very, very kind and was able to add my order to the group buy.  I hope I don't cause a sort of "run on the bank" in relating this.  I really very much appreciate their flexibility in this case.  I would say try talking to them on live chat.  Be nice!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 29 January 2013, 13:16:05
Actually you're the 2nd or 3rd to ask this question here  :)  glad you got in.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Cadrach on Tue, 29 January 2013, 13:22:05

Why don't you send them an email or talk to them on live chat? They might allow extra orders, I'm sure they wouldn't mind the extra profit and besides they haven't ordered the parts yet since they have other GBs going on for the parts.


I just did, and a Will there was very, very kind and was able to add my order to the group buy.  I hope I don't cause a sort of "run on the bank" in relating this.  I really very much appreciate their flexibility in this case.  I would say try talking to them on live chat.  Be nice!

I imagine MD won't order any of the PCBs and cases until the individual component buys end, so I would guess that anybody trying to squeeze an order in now isn't actually that much extra work for MassDrop.  Probably some manual entry into their system, but that's it.  And then they get another unit of profit.  Good for everybody.  Of course, at the moment that they actually place their full order for any given component, that all goes out the window.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 30 January 2013, 18:33:01
Regarding feet, it appears they won't be supplied with the MD kit, but McMaster-Carr supplies all sorts of commodity hardware, including rubber bumpers:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bumpers/=l9lh1w

Note each type has a wide variety of subtypes, shapes and sizes -- e.g., the threaded bumpers have a threaded-hole version that you could prolly thread right onto the bottom of your case screws, or use the with-holes type to surround the standard bottom nuts. I'm thinking the push-in type would suffice if the bottom plate is supplied with separate holes for mounting feet.

Also check your local hardware or auto parts stores; they generally have a selection of many/most of the types McMaster lists above.

I may be replacing my inboard-side case screws with longer ones to support tenting, perhaps with tall coupling nuts on the ends for adjustability, then I could just put a rubber cap on those.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: danielucf on Thu, 31 January 2013, 09:31:29
I'm going to use some rubber bumpers from old switches/routers that got rack mounted instead of sitting on a desk. I think we have 100s at work that will probably get tossed in the garbage some day.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 31 January 2013, 09:33:11
...get tossed in the garbage some day.

Dude, you named your car that too?!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: danielucf on Thu, 31 January 2013, 09:40:18
...get tossed in the garbage some day.

Dude, you named your car that too?!
Funny guy, you!
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Thu, 31 January 2013, 11:44:51
I'm a sorry excuse for a human being because I laughed at that joke :)).

I wonder if I'll find some bumpers here in the cold lonely north xD.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 31 January 2013, 19:37:50
The ErgoDox sold count has risen from 204 when the GB ended, to 207 at the moment. Let's see if it grows further, 16 hours to go for the PCB and case group buys to close. I suspect that's the point of no return for special requests, unless Massdrop will delay placing the actual orders till next week.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Thu, 31 January 2013, 22:51:30
Where can I buy one and who provides assembly service if needed???
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 31 January 2013, 23:28:05
You would buy it at massdrop.com
You need to create an account, and contact them to participate, since officially it's over.
On the same site you can purchase assembly service, the deal is still active for 5 more days:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-assembly

I believe this page doesn't need an account to see it:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Fri, 01 February 2013, 00:15:49
You would buy it at massdrop.com
You need to create an account, and contact them to participate, since officially it's over.
On the same site you can purchase assembly service, the deal is still active for 5 more days:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-assembly

I believe this page doesn't need an account to see it:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php

Thank you for that. I'm on the notify list in case the group buy picks up additional buyers for the whole kit.
Right now I'm hesitant to buy the assembly service though since I don't even have any parts. :(
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: boli on Fri, 01 February 2013, 02:04:32
Woot, I totally missed the ErgoDox group buy on massdrop. :eek: Would have gotten one for sure (more later if satisfactory).

Any ideas if/when the next round will be up? I'm only interested in a complete kit, not individual parts. Ideally including assembly, such as Profosists awesome assembly offer. Anyway, I requested a kit on MD so hopefully will get an email when/if it comes back.

Since they have group buys going on, for the various parts, that are not over yet, I suspect they _might_ be able to accommodate an order for a complete keyboard, so ask them. Even the Profosist's group buy still has 8 days to go.

I did that because I saw you recommending it to someone else over at DT and in the MD discussion. Fortunately, I was able to order one for myself as well as another one for a friend. :) I tried adding a third one for another friend later but was told they couldn't accept orders any more.

Still, I'm blown away by the very personal mass drop service. And of course very much looking forward to the ErgoDox.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 02 February 2013, 02:35:17
(cross-post)

Since no one who's asked has reported back yet... lol:  I just chatted with Mark at Massdrop, and they're thinking the kits will be shipping in 3-6 weeks - determined by whichever part takes the longest, probably either the cases or the PCBs.  The PCB order has gone in already, but since it's Chinese New Year the factories are empty at the moment.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Sun, 03 February 2013, 12:45:23
 :-\ It totally slip my mind during my correspondence with MD i have enquired about shipping as well. I was quote 2-3 weeks for parts to get to them and anywhere from 1-2 wks, depending on country of residence, of shipping time. Probably the switches will be the last piece of the puzzle, if any delays on shipping, as they got them from varies sources. Safe to put ETA on mid of march i presume.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:06:14
So basically the better part of a month to get my GUI code functional. That should probably be enough for me to at least get basic functionality out of it assuming I don't get too sidetracked on the front end - and no unforeseen problems crop up.

I never got a response back from OrangeJewce, so I'm just trucking ahead on my own in my free time. Worst case basis, we end up with multiple options. ;)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 03 February 2013, 15:33:01
So basically the better part of a month to get my GUI code functional. That should probably be enough for me to at least get basic functionality out of it assuming I don't get too sidetracked on the front end - and no unforeseen problems crop up.

I never got a response back from OrangeJewce, so I'm just trucking ahead on my own in my free time. Worst case basis, we end up with multiple options. ;)

Oo! Design overview pls?? Lol, or not, I just mean, if u have a second n u feel like it, I'm curious what you're planning :)
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Sun, 03 February 2013, 16:27:14
I'm also working on a small web-based layout creator-thingie. So far it saves to layout in a database, and anything about changing the layout itself seems to be more or less functional, but there is still quite a few basic things to get down before showing it to anybody. Ideally, it would also compile the firmware, and allow sharing (I believe this was the intend of Orangejewce's idea?) of layouts, but I'm unsure of how it would be best to generate files for compiling.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 03 February 2013, 16:31:04
Conceptually I'm just going with the same thing that OJ was proposing. Front end will be web based that'll communicate with the server backend using some layer abstraction independent of the actual firmware. Server backend will then take the user's layout, convert it into the actual firmware specific code. During compile phase, the front end keeps pinging the backend to get build position / time remaining estimates. Once complete, they get a download link for it. Ultimately, it should allow browsing other people's layouts (if shared), forking them, etc.

As of right now though, I'm focusing on the front end design and some level of cross browser compatibility. I am *not* a web page designer, so wont be super pretty, but it should be functional so long as you're on a recent browser (that's not Opera). Currently it's more proof of concept than even an alpha version.

In the current state I have:

I've attached a screencap of the in-progress mess. Ignore the bottom area as that's just a test section for now. Color scheme is currently based on the PCBs, though obviously will need some work.

[Edit] And It looks like there's even more people working on similar concepts lol. It's an amusing side project =).


Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sun, 03 February 2013, 18:15:05
Nice :-) thanks. I'm glad to see these projects.  If I can answer any questions for you guys, please let me know and I'll do my best.

@Zifle:
If you haven't already, maybe take a look at the layout files here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout) (especially the QWERTY one), and the new (as soon as I finish...) layout files here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/tree/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout).  From a code generation standpoint, a standard-featured layout file should be almost entirely boilerplate (which can be copied from an existing layout) + a few matrices.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Sun, 03 February 2013, 19:20:22
ic07, how hard do you think it would be to implement chording ability to the firmware? I would absolutely love that.

(Unrelated: my captcha is pretty funny(http://i.imgur.com/Er4gYGg.png))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 03 February 2013, 21:43:29
Well, mapping JavaScript key codes to USB key codes, and then mapping those USB key codes to visual labels was... fun. Nothing beats manually editing 200+ item arrays! ;) At least I shouldn't have to convert them again at the back end. Just pass the raw key codes on and skip the human friendly defines used in the current files.

Unfortunately, however, there's no way to differentiate between left and right modifiers in JavaScript, so users will have to change them manually. Likewise, Print Screen appears to be impossible to capture. (And by manually, I mean having to use the GUI to pick out a function for the key.  The current quick mode is just clicking on a key, hitting the button the keyboard you want, clicking on the next key, etc. Can load out a layer in seconds.)

A loaded layer pic is attached with key shaders enabled. For some reason, Chrome renders text a bit wobbly on the diagonals, but there's not much I can do about that. It probably has something to do with the way Chrome handles the CSS scaling. USB key codes won't be placed at the bottom of keys in the real version, but they're there right now as both debug and for the fact that I'm not sure *what* I'll put there :)) For layer keys, the top and bottom of the key represent key-up and key-down states respectively. For transparent keys, the transparency label will be there to further distinguish them from active keys in normal layer configuration. For normal keys though, I guess the bottom will just be blank.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Sun, 03 February 2013, 22:29:50
Well, mapping JavaScript key codes to USB key codes, and then mapping those USB key codes to visual labels was... fun. Nothing beats manually editing 200+ item arrays! ;) At least I shouldn't have to convert them again at the back end. Just pass the raw key codes on and skip the human friendly defines used in the current files.

Unfortunately, however, there's no way to differentiate between left and right modifiers in JavaScript, so users will have to change them manually. Likewise, Print Screen appears to be impossible to capture. (And by manually, I mean having to use the GUI to pick out a function for the key.  The current quick mode is just clicking on a key, hitting the button the keyboard you want, clicking on the next key, etc. Can load out a layer in seconds.)

A loaded layer pic is attached with key shaders enabled. For some reason, Chrome renders text a bit wobbly on the diagonals, but there's not much I can do about that. It probably has something to do with the way Chrome handles the CSS scaling. USB key codes won't be placed at the bottom of keys in the real version, but they're there right now as both debug and for the fact that I'm not sure *what* I'll put there :)) For layer keys, the top and bottom of the key represent key-up and key-down states respectively. For transparent keys, the transparency label will be there to further distinguish them from active keys in normal layer configuration. For normal keys though, I guess the bottom will just be blank.

Zalusithix,

     Wow I'm impressed by your progress! I got put onto a project just recently that has literally been consuming me. I've been taking every free moment away from work to keep my significant other happy. I suppose that's what happens when you work most weekends are 12hrs a day. I apologize to everyone that I could not make more progress, irl just is getting in the way of all my keyboard ambitions at the moment.

Sincerely,

OJ
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 03 February 2013, 23:03:54
Question! I'm brainstorming for ideas of what to do with the new keys two rows below home. Would/will it be possible to program alt-code characters with these configurator programs such as ½ or ° symbols?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 03 February 2013, 23:24:00
OJ, no problems from my end. From the way you were talking last time, it seemed you were quite bogged down. After I got no response that weekend, I decided to start messing around with things as it had been years since the last time I worked with HTML/JS.

Originally I started with an SVG representation, but canned that approach after a couple days. Now it's entirely CSS driven. Sadly I've already had to drop some 'functionality' (read: eye candy). I wanted to use CSS3 to have 3D transformations allowing a stack rendering to split into it's individual layers etc. This would be too laggy though for the number of divs used, so it's now a single keyboard that gets dynamically updated as needed and I stick to only 2D transforms.  In the end, perhaps that was for the best, as it now follows the KISS principle much better. (FWIW, 10 active keyboard layers would have used over 3000 divs if rendered individually.)

[Edit] bisl, I don't believe so. There's no macro functionality in the current firmware build, and I don't see those particular glyphs in the USB HID spec. Once ic07 has the new firmware done, I think it should be possible though.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TastyShrimp on Mon, 04 February 2013, 03:45:25
Does the current PCB layout allow for adding LEDs to all keys? If not, would there be a way to add in additional LEDs another way?
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: L!athus on Mon, 04 February 2013, 06:56:33
Does the current PCB layout allow for adding LEDs to all keys? If not, would there be a way to add in additional LEDs another way?
the pcb doesn't support LEDs for the rest of the switches other than those 3 on extreme side of each board by design afaik. More knowledgeable person should be able to answer the second part of your qns.

DT thread has gone from bad to worse, discussion/chit chats over there is no longer a joy. Sadly, it has escalated to the point of pissing off  Dox. :eek: The atmosphere is as tense as DMZ..... :)) That said I will just post my  :eek: of DataDox here. ;D The project will be a new talk of the community. Kudos to Dox.

@ic07
I have misinterpret the "tactile feedback" term and you are right about a physical switch, even without the tactile bump, does still gives the feedback to your fingers that you are hitting on a key as opposed to just touching on a flat plane. Its a different "feel" and I hope I got it right this time. :D  As for the O-rings, I have only come across in the past 70~90a nitrile rubber O-rings with a compatible inner diameter and good enough thickness to significantly reduce key travel. Those mostly come at a quantities of 40-50/pack. Anyways, good luck with your experimentation on the switches. I don't have the knowledge of whether a custom made spring or with a combination of other mat could provide the end result you are after in theory. The only thing I can come out with is double springs, but there isn't enough room in the switch housing for that.  :))
Title: Re: [Interest Check] ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 04 February 2013, 10:22:41
Well, certain people over DT have their philosophical reasons to be cranky.  It's unfortunate that its happening right in Dox's thread, though.  I'd be pissed too.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Mon, 04 February 2013, 15:14:27
I feel bad for my contribution to the tense mood on DT, but a certain admin over there just kept on saying things that compelled me to respond.

It's a great keyboard, Dox. Sorry for the drama.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 04 February 2013, 15:17:03
...but a certain admin over there just kept on saying things that compelled me to respond.


That's what webwit wanted
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tensor on Mon, 04 February 2013, 15:27:57
Hello :)

Just wanted to drop in and say I ordered two pairs of PCBs and a collection of brown switches and tops from WASD for the both of them.

This will be my first mechanical keyboard, already dabbled a little in ergonomic membrane keyboards, but after trying mechanical, the ergodox seems like the best way to go forward. Really looking forward to getting all parts to me, a little less about the customs fees I'm going to have to pay  :-X

From what I've seen, it seems like a great design and hopefully it will last me for some time. Plus it being open hardware is even better. Now where will I get two housings for the keyboard.  :eek:
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 04 February 2013, 15:56:35
Hi Tensor, welcome to GH!
Did you get the other components (teensy, diodes, LEDs, IO expander, connectors, cables, etc) ?  I wonder if there's a one-stop-shop that has ALL the electronic parts (except maybe for the teensy), anyone know?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Mon, 04 February 2013, 15:59:55
http://www.digikey.com/   ?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tensor on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:05:13
Hi Tensor, welcome to GH!
Did you get the other components (teensy, diodes, LEDs, IO expander, connectors, cables, etc) ?  I wonder if there's a one-stop-shop that has ALL the electronic parts (except maybe for the teensy), anyone know?

Ordered the IO expander, USB female, male parts and the 3.5mm 4-pole from digikey, since they are a bit of a pain to find elsewhere. I expect to be shafted up the ass with shipping charges.

Already have two teensy v2 (and two v3), diodes are ordered, LEDs I have a ton-load, though I have to check that they are T1s 3mms. I figured I try to hack in a 5mm T1 RGB LED and have configurable lights ;)

The only thing left is the housing itself, which I have no idea where I will source it from. Need to check a few places, I would very much like to try a housing made from wood, just for the fun of it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:08:24
Dox has Digikey P/Ns right here:

http://ergodox.org/Hardware.aspx
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:27:50
Hi Tensor, welcome to GH!
Did you get the other components (teensy, diodes, LEDs, IO expander, connectors, cables, etc) ?  I wonder if there's a one-stop-shop that has ALL the electronic parts (except maybe for the teensy), anyone know?

Ordered the IO expander, USB female, male parts and the 3.5mm 4-pole from digikey, since they are a bit of a pain to find elsewhere. I expect to be shafted up the ass with shipping charges.

Already have two teensy v2 (and two v3), diodes are ordered, LEDs I have a ton-load, though I have to check that they are T1s 3mms. I figured I try to hack in a 5mm T1 RGB LED and have configurable lights ;)

The only thing left is the housing itself, which I have no idea where I will source it from. Need to check a few places, I would very much like to try a housing made from wood, just for the fun of it.

You can order a Shapeways case directly from my shapeways profile.
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox (http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox)

It's a bit expensive but I've been using 2 of them for the last 9 months and I love them!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:41:38
just popping in to congratulate everyone on a successful project. hopefully everything goes well and we can revisit the design for refinements and a round 2 once v1's popularity blows up :)

eta: oh, and HUGE PROPS TO DOX for driving this, doing most if not all the hard work, and undeservedly taking everyone's **** along the way. *cue wayne's world 'we're not worthy!'*
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tensor on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:48:44

You can order a Shapeways case directly from my shapeways profile.
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox (http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox)

It's a bit expensive but I've been using 2 of them for the last 9 months and I love them!

Bookmarked! But first I need to check out a local 3D printer, since I'd like to try and keep the costs down at this point (doubt I will succeed). It's gotten a bit out of control toward the end ;D Though I doubt his prices will be lower than shapeways.

Never saw you mention which version you are using, the flat, sloped or double sloped? It's a person preference, but I still like to get some information how they compare to each other :) Though creating just the slopes and attaching them to the flat case would seem to be the best way forward for this, since that leaves a few doors opened.

Edit:
I am looking forward to ditching the MS Ergonomic 4000 for your keyboard design. Should be a whole different world of ergonomics, especially with the mechanical switches. :3
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 04 February 2013, 16:54:19
Hi Tensor, welcome to GH!
Did you get the other components (teensy, diodes, LEDs, IO expander, connectors, cables, etc) ?  I wonder if there's a one-stop-shop that has ALL the electronic parts (except maybe for the teensy), anyone know?

Ordered the IO expander, USB female, male parts and the 3.5mm 4-pole from digikey, since they are a bit of a pain to find elsewhere. I expect to be shafted up the ass with shipping charges.

Already have two teensy v2 (and two v3), diodes are ordered, LEDs I have a ton-load, though I have to check that they are T1s 3mms. I figured I try to hack in a 5mm T1 RGB LED and have configurable lights ;)

The only thing left is the housing itself, which I have no idea where I will source it from. Need to check a few places, I would very much like to try a housing made from wood, just for the fun of it.

You can order a Shapeways case directly from my shapeways profile.
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox (http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox)

It's a bit expensive but I've been using 2 of them for the last 9 months and I love them!

They do look good in your pics.  The shapeways prices add up quick.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Mon, 04 February 2013, 17:27:08
That's what webwit wanted

It's always great when the admin of a site is a troll.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Mon, 04 February 2013, 17:28:39
That 3D-printable case looks nice. I'm regretting not snatching an extra pcb set since 3D printing is bound to become cheaper and a slanted case would be sweet.

What else could 3D printing offer in terms of case design? Custom wrist rests come to mind.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Mon, 04 February 2013, 17:30:35
just popping in to congratulate everyone on a successful project. hopefully everything goes well and we can revisit the design for refinements and a round 2 once v1's popularity blows up :)

eta: oh, and HUGE PROPS TO DOX for driving this, doing most if not all the hard work, and undeservedly taking everyone's **** along the way. *cue wayne's world 'we're not worthy!'*
Thanks a lot, but I have to spread the props to bphiphany for the mirror PCBs, ic07 for the firmware and litster for the layered acrylic case. And everyone who supported the project!

Bookmarked! But first I need to check out a local 3D printer, since I'd like to try and keep the costs down at this point (doubt I will succeed). It's gotten a bit out of control toward the end ;D Though I doubt his prices will be lower than shapeways.

Never saw you mention which version you are using, the flat, sloped or double sloped? It's a person preference, but I still like to get some information how they compare to each other :) Though creating just the slopes and attaching them to the flat case would seem to be the best way forward for this, since that leaves a few doors opened.

Edit:
I am looking forward to ditching the MS Ergonomic 4000 for your keyboard design. Should be a whole different world of ergonomics, especially with the mechanical switches. :3

I started with a flat PCB and sloping it by sticking pipe insulation under it. Then, the sloped case from shapeways and after some more experimentation, I ordered the double sloped. I prefer the double slope but as you said, with a flat case you could slope it exactly the way you want and it's cheaper too.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 04 February 2013, 17:39:28
Thanks a lot, but I have to spread the props to bphiphany for the mirror PCBs, ic07 for the firmware and litster for the layered acrylic case. And everyone who supported the project!

Yeah, thanks Dox and everyone else.  This is a really unique project for grass roots and those involved should be really proud of it, regardless of the chosen GB organizer.

I'm hoping this thing will force me to learn to type properly.  :p
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Mon, 04 February 2013, 18:51:02
Good idea about attaching the slopes. I guess that will be an addon later on that I want to try out! :)

Me being a mechanical keyboard noob and all that I headed to Akihabara last Sunday to check the different Cherry MX switches out.
I tested them on some Filco boards and was really happy, that apparently I wasn't the only one who would type and type and type for nothing. ;)
There where quite some other guys doing the same, so we always had to wait for each other! :D

It really didn't make my choice much easier though. I loved the feedback of the blue ones, but due to the higher force needed I excluded them.
Next was a hard battle between Red and Brown and I can't really say which one I prefer.
But the red one being so light, I went for a compromise after all and ordered Browns from 7bit.

I'm so excited for this!! :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 05 February 2013, 03:45:57
@gdaian
I'm a bit too tired to be predicting difficulty at the moment... lol (and difficulty is relative anyway) - it'd definitely be possible, and not bad compared to other things - but implementing it in any general way, I'm pretty sure, would take more time than I have right now... sorry.  That said, depending on the form of the chords you envision making, I feel like there's a good chance you could emulate it in a reasonable number of layers... and if you can do it in 10 layers or less (actually... the real limit on layers is much much higher...), you're good :) .  What do you think?

@Zalusithis
That interface looking great - I'm going to have to look at your code some day :-)

@bisl (but mostly @Zalusithis)
If you want macros before the rewrite is finished, and you're generating C code to compile already anyway, it seems like you could generate new key-functions without much trouble.  IIRC they could even be defiend inside the layout file, since it's only function pointers that get referenced outside that anyway.  The code would look something like
Code: [Select]
void local_kbfun_macro00(void) {
    _kbfun_press_release(true,  _H);
    usb_keyboard_send();
    _kbfun_press_release(false, _H);
    _kbfun_press_release(true,  _I);
    usb_keyboard_send();
    _kbfun_press_release(false, _I);
    // ...
}
(You also might need to include some extra headers... see here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/lib/key-functions/public/special.c) for some of the key-functions that are already defined).

Of course "without much trouble" could very well still be more trouble than it's worth for you at the moment... :-) just thought I'd mention.

@TastyShrimp
About adding LEDs to all the switches (even though the PCB doesn't support them)... It'd be a hardware mod, and the complexity would depend on precisely what you wanted to do.  It would at least involve a lot of hand wiring of LEDs and resistors to the Teensy||USB Vcc & GND pins (in the case that you wanted the LEDs at a constant brightness, always on).  If you wanted them dimmable or anything, you'd probably have to add extra chips, and things could become quite complicated.

@L!athus
Hmm... The O-rings at WASD are all either 50A or 40A.  I'll have to look around for other O-rings later then.  Thanks!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:04:00
Mass drop just created a layout GUI
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:10:47
Heer's a link: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?
It appears you do not need to be logged in to massdrop to play with it. I'll play with it and see if I like it.

You do need to be logged in to download or save your layouts though.

It's based on the ergodox-firmware code in github. Props to us for being awesome.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:31:30
Heer's a link: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?
It appears you do not need to be logged in to massdrop to play with it. I'll play with it and see if I like it.

You do need to be logged in to download or save your layouts though.

It's based on the ergodox-firmware code in github. Props to us for being awesome.

I never expected MD to do this...very clever indeed.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:44:15
Just got an email from MD that they won't accept any more participants as the group buy is over. :(
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:11:39
I never expected MD to do this...very clever indeed.

Yes, what a pleasant surprise! Kudos to them for actually becoming contributors to the project! In stark contrast, TrulyErgonomic still doesn't have their long promised overdue remapping software available.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:13:41
Wow that remapping GUI is awesome.  So simple to use.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:22:40
Who's Ben Blazek? (Is that OrangeJewce?)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:33:39
Who's Ben Blazek? (Is that OrangeJewce?)


That's ic07.

Amazingly simple to use. Looking good, can't wait for my ErgoDox!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:34:37
Me too!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:37:53
For the record, add a query of ?keys=80 to the URL if you want to split the 2x thumb keys :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Tue, 05 February 2013, 09:42:53
Sweet! Super awesome!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 05 February 2013, 11:25:02
Aaaand I highly recommend that everyone goes through http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php in case you want to round out your collection of 1.5x caps, of which you'll need a dozen per board. ;)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 05 February 2013, 11:31:16
Aaaand I highly recommend that everyone goes through http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php in case you want to round out your collection of 1.5x caps, of which you'll need a dozen per board. ;)

and 4 2x caps, and 8 extra 1x if you're using a standard ANSI DCS profile set.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 February 2013, 11:37:02
I bought 2 sets of keycaps from Kinesis, plus the PBT set from MD. I have a feeling the Kinesis set will work well, but I'll probably mix and match since the ErgoDox has more keys.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 05 February 2013, 11:39:28
and 4 2x caps, and 8 extra 1x if you're using a standard ANSI DCS profile set.

Not to mention the 10 extra SP-row-4 keys located two rows beneath home row--turns out you actually need quite a few new keys for this thing, hah. I just put in a fairly monstrous order. :|

For the 8 on the thumb clusters, I actually tried to buy appropriate row profiles, meaning SP row 1 for the top two on each thumb cluster, and then SP rows 2 and 3 for the other rows, plus a homing bar for the middle key on each thumb's bottom row. We'll see how it goes!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 05 February 2013, 13:34:09
Well the fact that MD created a web based configuration tool is certainly surprising. I can't say it really change my plans, as I plan on forging ahead just the same. It does, however,  lower any pressing need to have it operational quickly.

@bisl (but mostly @Zalusithis)
If you want macros before the rewrite is finished, and you're generating C code to compile already anyway, it seems like you could generate new key-functions without much trouble.  IIRC they could even be defiend inside the layout file, since it's only function pointers that get referenced outside that anyway.  The code would look something like
Code: [Select]
void local_kbfun_macro00(void) {
    _kbfun_press_release(true,  _H);
    usb_keyboard_send();
    _kbfun_press_release(false, _H);
    _kbfun_press_release(true,  _I);
    usb_keyboard_send();
    _kbfun_press_release(false, _I);
    // ...
}
(You also might need to include some extra headers... see here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/lib/key-functions/public/special.c) for some of the key-functions that are already defined).

I actually contemplated doing something like that. Now that MD has created a configuration tool and I have more freedom, I'll attempt to integrate an ad-hoc macro mode into it for the existing firmware. It was on the drawing board anyhow from a UI perspective as I knew it would eventually be implemented officially.

If anything, I'm still figuring out how I want to present manual key function selection. Branching context menus ala MD's version don't really fit the rest of my UI. Ah well, I have a few more days before the weekend coding session to figure that out. In the mean time, even though MD has surely lowered interest in it, I've attached a pic of last night's adjustments. The layer controls are not fully hooked up to the keyboard script yet, so it's pretty much just a visual representation with static labels.

On a side note, one semantic difference I'm implementing vs MD's version and even the firmware is that I'm designating 'layer 1' as the base layer and not 'layer 0'. It'll be converted on the firmware side of things to be zero based, but for configuration and talking, It'll be one based. Zero based indexes are fine (great even) for programming, but I find they're not exactly ideal for general conversation and non programmers. Zero in the real world tends to represent nothing, not the first of something.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 05 February 2013, 16:47:48
I'm surprised too... lol.  But I think it's pretty cool :-) .  Hope you're not disappointed that they got to it before us OJ...  And thanks for promoting the idea, even before anyone really cared :-)

@Zalusithix
-------
I'm glad it didn't kill your project - it's looking like yours will be the more technical of the UIs, which I hope/think there will be a good place for.  I'm still curious to see how you end up implementing some things.
-------
I thought you might have contemplated doing macros that way in the meantime...  You're a more experienced programmer than I, and you seem to have understood the firmware source pretty well, so I hope I don't go about suggesting too many obvious things :-)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tensor on Tue, 05 February 2013, 17:09:40
Gah, I know this isn't really the place for this, but I can't open threads in group buys yet.

I'm assembling two Ergodox keyboards from PCBs, so I have to order some components from Digikey, since I can't find them anywhere else, namely the IO expander, mini USB connectors and the 3.5mm 4-pole jacks. The price for 1 set of these costs ~9$ and the shipping to Europe is around 30 to 50$  :eek:
If anyone whos also from Europe would like to join me on the buy (you can specify which components, but please no diodes or switches ;)) so we can split the shipping (and the appropriate customs VAT for each ones sub-order)? I can forward all the initial money, so I just need to see if anyone is interested in this.

Even better if someone could make a thread about this in the group buy section so we don't spam this thread with irrelevant information? If someone else (eg. long standing member, whos a bit more thrust worthy than me) would order instead and is also inside of the EU, that would just as well ;)

I'll try to get to 60 posts ASAP, but without spamming it will take a bit of time :)


/sleep
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 05 February 2013, 17:10:41
Have you checked farnell?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 February 2013, 17:14:52
I think you would find more people from Europe in Deskthority, which would give you better chances I suspect. Have you seen these threads?

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753-1230.html
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ergodox-the-keyboard-t5072.html
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 05 February 2013, 17:57:43
I never expected MD to do this...very clever indeed.

Yes, what a pleasant surprise! Kudos to them for actually becoming contributors to the project! In stark contrast, TrulyErgonomic still doesn't have their long promised overdue remapping software available.

Just in case you haven't seen it, it's possible to remap the keys for the Truly Ergonomic, though just with a text/hex editor rather than any proper UI. I've got mine set to Colemak layout on the "Windows" layer and Qwerty on the "Mac" layer. You could do something similar with Dvorak. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38943.0
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Tue, 05 February 2013, 18:30:23
depending on the form of the chords you envision making, I feel like there's a good chance you could emulate it in a reasonable number of layers... and if you can do it in 10 layers or less (actually... the real limit on layers is much much higher...), you're good :) .  What do you think?

What I had in mind was full chording for letters (something like chordmak (http://www.asetniop.com/blog/?p=103)) or some hybrid. But layer-based ghetto chording will have to do. Thanks for all the work you've put into the firmware, it's already awesome.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 05 February 2013, 20:38:14
What I had in mind was full chording for letters (something like chordmak (http://www.asetniop.com/blog/?p=103)) or some hybrid. But layer-based ghetto chording will have to do. Thanks for all the work you've put into the firmware, it's already awesome.

Thanks :). Sorry I can't do more to help...  Hope the implementation works out well for you though :). You've gotten me thinking a bit about other input metaphors besides just the standard key->actuon / layer one. I'll have to keep it in the back of my mind for possibly sometime later.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 06 February 2013, 08:16:10
I completely missed the PBT keycap set. Did anyone order extra?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Wed, 06 February 2013, 08:21:49
I completely missed the PBT keycap set. Did anyone order extra?

Do you think there would be interest in a DCS profile PBT Gb dork? I suppose we could start an IC for one :/

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 06 February 2013, 10:08:16
I know MD had mentioned the possibility of a DCS profile group buy after the DSA completed/shipped.  They didn't want to split their current orders between two simultaneous orders.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 06 February 2013, 11:10:34
I know MD had mentioned the possibility of a DCS profile group buy after the DSA completed/shipped.  They didn't want to split their current orders between two simultaneous orders.

I hope that wasn't really their reasoning, considering that the mere possibility of a future DCS buy is enough to stop lots of people from buying in on a DSA buy. You'd think they could have worked out a deal with SP to organize both buys at the same time if this was actually the case.

Personally I just bought a bunch of SP's blank 1.5s and I'm going to continue using my current PBT DCS-like set. We'll see how it goes!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 06 February 2013, 11:12:44
I'm debating picking up blanks, too, after you mentioned them yesterday.

Going to see how the DSA turns out.  Never used the profile before.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 06 February 2013, 22:52:11
I'm surprised too... lol.  But I think it's pretty cool :-) .  Hope you're not disappointed that they got to it before us OJ...  And thanks for promoting the idea, even before anyone really cared :-)

@Zalusithix
-------
I'm glad it didn't kill your project - it's looking like yours will be the more technical of the UIs, which I hope/think there will be a good place for.  I'm still curious to see how you end up implementing some things.
-------
I thought you might have contemplated doing macros that way in the meantime...  You're a more experienced programmer than I, and you seem to have understood the firmware source pretty well, so I hope I don't go about suggesting too many obvious things :-)
Considering you don't have anything to judge my experience by other than a few screen caps and some forum comments, I wouldn't underestimate yourself like that. =) I've been away from coding long enough to get rusty - especially on the web side of things. Thankfully this project is well suited to hacking together while I learn the ropes again so to speak. Of course, said hacking is making things so that code cleanup is probably going to take as long as getting it fully functional lol...

At any rate, I've now hooked up actual code to most of the previously shown interface. It can now add layers, move layers (basically rename layer x to layer y and shift everything in between by one), and delete layers (except base). Right clicking on a key now serves to unset the key to a null key on layer 1, and toggles between null key and transparent on any other layer. Now I have to get deletion and moving of layers to sanitize and correct any layer links that were affected by the action. After that,  I'll have to implement the preview stack mode. Then I can finally move on to adding more UI elements to control manual entry and macros... If the stars align just right, I might have a (non server assisted) demo up by the end of the weekend to demonstrate it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Thu, 07 February 2013, 01:45:24
After seeing Massdrops configurator, I no longer plan on working on my own. I didn't plan on making anything advanced by any means, so the difference between mine and theirs would be too little to make it worth the effort. The only thing we seem to have done differently, is assigning of the keys themselves.
I had made a small interface, to filter / select keys with, which I personally think is faster than the right-click menu they've made. But that's about it. And theirs is prettier!
Still looking forward to seeing what Zalusithix hacks together, it seems like it could be a more full-featured-ish.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 07 February 2013, 09:40:06
For those of you looking for Brown switches Newegg has a board for sale that comes out to the same price as getting them from 7bit. You would just have to spend the time desoldering 104 switches.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201051
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 07 February 2013, 09:48:55
Folks, Kinesis (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) can sell you reds as well as brown switches. They only carry PCB-mount ones (like the ones for the Kinesis Advantage), ie with pins and integrated diodes, which coincidentally, the ErgoDox PCB and firmware supports!

You just need to set the following options in src/keyboard/ergodox/options.h:
Code: [Select]
        #define  TEENSY__DRIVE_ROWS       0
        #define  TEENSY__DRIVE_COLUMNS    1
        #define  MCP23018__DRIVE_ROWS     1
        #define  MCP23018__DRIVE_COLUMNS  0
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 07 February 2013, 17:45:09
Folks, Kinesis (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) can sell you reds as well as brown switches.

I'm sure you know them better than I do, but last time I talked to them (as someone who wanted switches for a DIY board, not for modding / repairing a Kinesis board) they didn't want to sell me a full board's worth (of Reds, I believe), and said they usually didn't sell in that quantity...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 07 February 2013, 19:44:42
Normally they sell red switches in batches of 15 (to replace Kinesis thumbkeys from reds to browns), but apart from small quantities, I've bought a batch of 60 red switches from them. Maybe they love me because I own at least 6 contoured keyboards. :-)  I love them too, after all they created my beloved Advantage LF when I suggested it to them. I own the very first LF made, the first two actually since I bought a pair. Not sure if they have collector's value after I've dremeled them to add extra keys and palm switches :-)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dox on Fri, 08 February 2013, 13:49:31
PCB files and litster case files added to http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx (http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 08 February 2013, 17:37:17
PCB files and litster case files added to http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx (http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx)

Very cool!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Fri, 08 February 2013, 17:43:19
PCB files and litster case files added to http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx (http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx)

Very cool!

so bisl, what is an ergodox anyway?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 08 February 2013, 19:17:23
Ok, got the sanitizing/link fixing working along with the preview mode. So before I go into the next spree of changing things around, I'll do a quick update. For those curious about the whole layer preview mode, here's an example:
Assume layer 1 looks like this:
[attach=1]
Layer 2 like this:
[attach=2]
And Layer 3 like this:
[attach=3]

When preview mode is toggled on, you end up seeing this:
[attach=4]
This is basically showing a stack of layers going from right to left on the layer bar. (layer 3 on top of 2 on top of 1). The color of the resulting key press is shaded by the color of the layer it's from.

If you change the layer bar by sliding the layer selector around, you can change the effective stack order to preview different results. Like this one where I made if effectively layer 2 on top of 1 with 3 hidden as layer 1 can't have transparent keys.
[attach=5]

When you exit preview mode, the colors turn off and the layer bar returns to in-order configuration style. So while not a full blown keyboard emulator, it does serve to get a quick feel for what it'll end up doing when actually running on the board.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Fri, 08 February 2013, 19:25:10
[cool-ass stuff here]

You're not releasing beta builds for us to play with the UI, are you? :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 08 February 2013, 19:34:36
The goal is to have a UI preview ready by the end of the weekend. It wont have backend support for saving or anything, but it'll allow people to play with the way the interface works and make suggestions etc.

Right now I'm still missing two controls that will go below the current ones: the manual key function selector and the macro creator. I want to at least get the former working before giving people something to play with. The macro creator isn't quite as important so I wont hold it back if I'm not finished with that part.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 09 February 2013, 04:38:03
The goal is to have a UI preview ready by the end of the weekend. It wont have backend support for saving or anything, but it'll allow people to play with the way the interface works and make suggestions etc.

Right now I'm still missing two controls that will go below the current ones: the manual key function selector and the macro creator. I want to at least get the former working before giving people something to play with. The macro creator isn't quite as important so I wont hold it back if I'm not finished with that part.

amazing. thanks for all your work.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sat, 09 February 2013, 23:08:28
Manual key entry is in, though admittedly nothing fancy. Hopefully I can get some semblance of a macro editor in by the end of tomorrow...

Either way, it's pretty much fully capable now as far as normal layouts go. With the manual key entry in, it can now support the few special functions of the firmware (toggled keys, special numpad layer, 2 shifts for caps lock, boot loader), and all the oddball keys that you don't normally find or can't be detected by JavaScript. It doesn't have much category breakdown, but honestly it should rarely be used aside from keyboard functions. For assigning standard keys, the keyboard is far, far faster than any GUI. (For changing right & left modifiers, you can just middle click the key, so you don't even have to use the menu for that.)

As a bonus, it auto restricts functionality to where it should be. For instance, you can't apply the shifted function to a shift key, or a numpad layer designation to anything other than a layer shift. (Once a layer has been designated a numpad layer, all past and future links to it will call it as such until you remove the numpad layer function, or add the numpad layer function to a different layer.)

The restrictions are actually implemented in other areas too like the layer shifting. You can't layer push the layer that you're currently on onto the stack again, and likewise you can't pop any layer other than the one you are currently on. It won't keep you from getting stuck on a layer or anything (yet), but hey, anything is better than nothing.

Quick screen cap attached showing the new control and various keys outfitted with the new functions.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 10 February 2013, 19:25:57
OK, no macro editor for the night. Instead I went through and documented all the source code that wasn't already. (90% of it) From there I'll be correcting some of the dumber things I've done in the existing code, and then I'll go back to adding things.

So for those wanting something to play with:
http://zalusithix.com/ergodox-ui/
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Sun, 10 February 2013, 20:16:15
For what screen resolution is this optimized?
On my work laptop I (unfortunately) have a resolution of 1366x768 and everything is crazy huge. :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 10 February 2013, 20:18:45
Everything fits at 1107x544 with no scroll bars.  The Keyboard is super small tho.  The control buttons across the bottom don't resize like the keyboard does.  They stay pretty big the throughout the window size range.

Oh yeah - that's with Firefox.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 10 February 2013, 20:36:30
It's designed for wide aspect ratios at modern resolutions, but it is rather dynamic in its space usage.

So yeah, it'll work at low resolutions, but it wont be great. Likewise it'll be huge on high resolution screens, but you can always shrink the window and the entire UI will adjust itself to fit.

Edit: If there's a lot of people that for some reason are on very low resolution displays, I could probably concoct something that will slide the key function list / macro editor part of the control section off screen most of the time to increase the keyboard's effective size.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 11 February 2013, 01:58:23
This is awesome! I played around for a couple minutes to kick the tires before bed, and I noticed that in Firefox at least, ; and - couldn't be bound with keystrokes from the keyboard. However, I was able to bind them explicitly with the menus at the bottom.

Looks pretty good! Excited for macros.
Title: First key64 firmware available for download
Post by: nesiax on Mon, 11 February 2013, 06:07:45
Sorry for invade into this thread  :oops: i am posting this into geekhack and deskthority ergodox's threads.

I have made a firmware for the key64 keyboard that i would like to share with you , i don't know if it could be useful for people who have been playing with the ergodox now but anyway is a free firmware that you can adapt to your needs.

The firmware have been in a testing phase for a while, it contains all the features described at the design page (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described) of the key64.

This initial firmware is a keyboard profile that compiles on top of the amazing tmk_keyboard (http://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard) firmware developed by Jun Wako a.k.a. "hasu" with some modifications.

For those who are interested please see the downloads (http://www.key64.org/downloads/list-of-downloads) page, then follow the instructions on how to compile the firmware (http://www.key64.org/howtos/compiling-key64-firmware).

I would like to finish the keyboard but my time is very limited, i know the ergodox (http://www.ergodox.org/) have more fans than the key64 (http://www.key64.org/) and it got the interest of the community the key64 fail to achieve; but if someone wants to collaborate with us we need a help with the design of the case, right now it appears more like a batman's keyboard, my idea initially was to make a wood case using a series of lasered cuts in wood one over the other and also a pcb plate to gain more stability , i see people prefer plastic, but i think (and is my personal opinion) wood give you a feeling of relaxation and is also a beautiful material.

Comments and suggestions (http://www.key64.org/contact-info) are welcome.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 11 February 2013, 08:40:36
The British are coming!

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 11 February 2013, 09:17:28
I would like to finish the keyboard but my time is very limited, i know the ergodox (http://www.ergodox.org/) have more fans than the key64 (http://www.key64.org/) and it got the interest of the community the key64 fail to achieve; but if someone wants to collaborate with us we need a help with the design of the case

Hi!
May I suggest you start a new thread for the Key64 with a descriptive name under "making stuff together!" here on geekhack? That should help get more visibisity and interest.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 11 February 2013, 13:02:53
This is awesome! I played around for a couple minutes to kick the tires before bed, and I noticed that in Firefox at least, ; and - couldn't be bound with keystrokes from the keyboard. However, I was able to bind them explicitly with the menus at the bottom.

Looks pretty good! Excited for macros.

Thanks for pointing that out. Apparently Firefox is using a different key code to represent those keys than either IE or Chrome use. I don't have the ability to check exactly what it's sending right now at work, but I'll fix that when I get home. Pretty much all those key codes have to be mapped manually as there's no direct relationship between JavaScript key codes and USB codes... Heck, there isn't even a sane relation between the JS key codes and char codes. At any rate, it should be a two second fix once I get around to it.

Edit: Fixed now and changes uploaded.
'; :' is 186 in Chrome/IE, and 59 in Firefox. Here Firefox is using the ascii char value of ';' as the key code.
'= +' is 187 in Chrome/IE, and 61 in Firefox. Yet again Firefox is using the ascii value '=' as the key code.
'- _' is  189 in Chrome/IE, and 173 in Firefox. Time to throw out consistency! 173 sure as heck isn't the ascii char value of '-', but it *is* the Unicode value for a "soft hyphen".
Aside from those three characters, it appears everything else is the same.


Edit 2 / Update: It has been a week since the demo UI went up and I figure a status update would be nice. I'm not going to bump the thread with a new post when I have nothing aside from news to offer, but I will hijack this post.

Shortly after posting the demo UI, I went through the code and corrected the most glaring issues (mixed bases, etc). From there I added a naming feature so descriptors could be set to layers / macros. Then I implemented the UI shell of the macro editor and tweaked the CSS and JavaScript so everything was rendering in a consistent uniform manner. Everything was set to begin coding the macro editor which should have been pretty straight forward from a UI perspective. The (non-essential) editing mode would require a bit of work since it would have to implement a virtual cursor and have to deal with selection / insertion / deletion, but I had ideas of how to deal with all of that.

However, when I began looking at the future beyond that and the general extensibility of the code, I got disgusted and said screw it...  and started a complete refactor / rewrite of the code base. This is beyond my original fixing of minor inconsistencies and is basically a wholesale dumping of the existing code. Now that I have a clearer idea of how I want things to go, I'm stepping away from the global variable hackfest that the previous code was and adopting a more class based / OO approach. This will push my schedule back at least another week, but at this point I'm more interested in doing it right (or at least closer to it) than simply getting it done ASAP.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Tue, 19 February 2013, 16:09:11
Thank you for developing such a nice keyboard.
I was looking at some dox keyboard layouts that some folks where kind enough to post.
Seems like most of the dox keyboards have three layers.
The Layer-key labels are cryptic to me.
Please point me to a reference or explain how the Layer keys work on the dox keyboards.

mikeLanding posted a layout with these keys:
   "Fn (L-1)"
   "Fn Lock (L-1)"
   "Num (L-3)"
   "Num Lock (L-3)"
How does Mike get to layer 2?
What does "Fn" mean?

dox, what are these keys for?
   "la 1 + 1"
   "la 1 +- 1"

zalusithx, what do these keys do?
   "L- 2  L+ 2"
   "L+ 2"
   "L- 3  L+ 3"
   "L+ 3"

theProfosist, are the "FN" keys shift or lock?
   "FN2"
   "FN3"

key64, how does the "Fn0" key work?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Tue, 19 February 2013, 17:25:28
Take a look at the info at the top of this file (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=12202).  It won't answer all your questions directly, but it should give you a pretty good background :) .

Edit: Also, Welcome to geekhack!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 19 February 2013, 17:37:24
My understanding of things, as something of a newbie to such matters, is that layer shifting can be something that is only active whilst holding a key, or can be toggled on and off depending on how you want to use it. Think of the shift and caps lock keys, with the former you only get caps when you're also holding down your magic button, whereas with the latter you tap it then everything is caps until you turn it off - we'll handily ignore non-letter keys for this example ;)

The layer stuff is more cunning than plain old shift though, it can be set to only effect certain keys, whilst others continue to perform their original duties, and different layers can be combined. In layer 1 you could have the plain old alphabet - probably qwerty for most, I'll be going colemak myself. Layer 2 could then turn a bunch of keys on the right into a number pad, like a lot of laptops do, other keys are still letters and whatnot. Layer 3 could then do something similar on the left, but with Function keys, and still have a few letters showing through. You could then turn on either layer independently, giving you numbers or F-keys, or even both together, leaving you with a number pad, F-keys, and a few stray letters that haven't been overwritten. Of course, you could always program it not to let unchanged keys through too if you prefer.

Those oddities with the layer stuff are, I believe, all variations on these themes.

edit - although you'd do far better to pay attention to ic07's post that came in whilst I was writing my waffle. He wrote the firmware, so knows more than most about it ;)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Tue, 19 February 2013, 20:13:29
Thanks ic07 and eviltobz.   Layer keys now make sense  :)

What does "Fn" mean?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 19 February 2013, 20:23:49
I've taken some liberties in my labeling of things, like starting layers at layer 1.  This extends to layer shifts where the previous format didn't really fit my UI. A 'L+ X' key denotes a key that when pressed will push the X'th layer onto the layer stack. Similarly a 'L- X' key will remove that layer from the stack. Thus it follows that a key that has both of them on it basically acts as a momentary layer shift. If you play around with my UI, you can see how the layers interact in preview mode. When used right, they can be rather powerful tools.

Also, numpad layers are special layers in that they denote a layer such that any keypad keys on that layer always act as if the numlock is on regardless of the real state. This way whenever you shift to a numpad layer, you wont get accidental arrows, home, end, etc.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 19 February 2013, 20:27:18
What does "Fn" mean?

Function
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Tue, 19 February 2013, 21:46:56
How many switches does the ergodox use?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 19 February 2013, 22:55:08
How many switches does the ergodox use?

Between 76 and 80, depending on if you plan on splitting the 2x-size thumb keys into two 1x-size keys each.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Tue, 19 February 2013, 23:58:40
What does "Fn" mean?

Function

mikeLanding posted a layout with these keys:
   "Fn (L-1)"
   "Fn Lock (L-1)"

theProfosist posted a layout with these keys:
   "FN2"
   "FN3"

Does "Fn" change top-row number keys to F keys?
Does "FN2" key function to activate layer 2?

Thanks for answering my noob questions.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 20 February 2013, 00:16:02
I haven't looked at the layout in question, but given the 'L' part, 'Fn (L-1)' was probably his notation for pushing layer one onto the stack momentarily, whereas the lock was probably for a normal push that doesn't pop when the key is released.

There is no 'function key' aside from the standard F keys you see on every keyboard (and the ones going higher than 12). Keys can have various functions assigned to them, but there's not some standard "this is the function key" sort of thing. As far as built in functions go, the firmware has:
Anything else would have to be coded into the firmware by the person wanting to implement the feature.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Wed, 20 February 2013, 01:41:07
Thank you Zalusithix!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Peter Pinard on Wed, 20 February 2013, 13:41:01
The PCB for the Ergodox shown has the following printed on it: "Components are intended to be placed on the side they are drawn. It is however possible to invert the design. See the webpage for further instructions"

I cant find the instructions for inversion anywhere, but when I get my ergodox, I would prefer to assemble it so that the teensy board is on the Left side. Is this possible and are there plans to write up the instructions to do so?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 21 February 2013, 03:02:22
The PCB for the Ergodox shown has the following printed on it: "Components are intended to be placed on the side they are drawn. It is however possible to invert the design. See the webpage for further instructions"

I cant find the instructions for inversion anywhere, but when I get my ergodox, I would prefer to assemble it so that the teensy board is on the Left side. Is this possible and are there plans to write up the instructions to do so?

Ha, yes, that is a bit of a loose end I guess =) It's not too complicated if you know what you are doing. Just do everything backwards... Including the firmware. I don't think it will be a very popular choice, unless you plan to do a left hand only keyboard. Perhaps we will need to write up a guide at some point if the interest is high enough. No-one tried it I believe, but everything should be invertible, I'm quite sure =)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 21 February 2013, 15:01:04
The Teensy, MCP23018, bridges next to the TRRS connectors, and the USB molex connector still need to go on the side they're drawn, don't they?  Even if you put all the switches, diodes, and resistors on the other side?

@Peter:
But bpiphany's the one who drew the PCBs, so he's the one who would know such things :-)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Fri, 22 February 2013, 14:40:28
key64, how does the "Fn0" key work?
Hi, you probably already know the answer to your question as in some way the goal of every Fn key is to solve the lack of keys like in a laptop keyboard, the key64 (http://www.key64.org) is so simple in such a way that it removes many of the functional keys and allow them on a second layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#fn-pressed) which is a hardware layer, and a alternate layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#alt-gr-pressed) which is a software layer and is commonly manage through the AltGr/Option key combination and is operating system dependent, with those two options you have enough ways to configure and to type without moving your hands so long from the home row if that is your preference.  As a personal preference the second hardware layer in the key64 is for some users who like me are typing regular expression frequently, the fact is that a standard keyboard is so painful as you will have to work with your right pinky too much and is harder to touch type, because of that the second layer is used to type symbols like {[('|&")]} which i removed from the main layer and move them at the home row in the Fn Layer, and the other ones like `~$@\^%*!#-_=+ which are usually typed using shift + <number> are located around too the idea is not to type at the keyboard periphery, so the keyboard should fit nicely from casual users to specialized users, right now i am typing at the key64 prototype and i found that very comfortable to use.
There are other layers too like the numlock layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#num-lock-layer) and the mouse layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#mouse-lock-layer-new) and each of them have a Fn layer too, those two are known as 'switchable layers' that means they change the default layer via a special key combination, this will let you for example change the keyboard distribution like (qwerty, colemak, dvorak) which are the ones the key64 support at this moment and we also have the console key which is the 64th key which is used for debugging the firmware, change keyboard layouts, lock keyboard, send debug commands or whatever you want to program it for.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 23 February 2013, 04:42:44
The Teensy, MCP23018, bridges next to the TRRS connectors, and the USB molex connector still need to go on the side they're drawn, don't they?  Even if you put all the switches, diodes, and resistors on the other side?

@Peter:
But bpiphany's the one who drew the PCBs, so he's the one who would know such things :-)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 23 February 2013, 10:09:37
  • The Teensy is simple to put upside down.
But you would need access to the button on the top side to program it.
Would it be possible to drill a hole through the PCB for reaching it with a pin, or is there anything important in the way?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 23 February 2013, 10:55:06
@bpiphany: Ooo, I completely forgot about turning stuff upside down. I must be tired or something... Lol. Thanks :-)

@findecanor: IIRC, the button is pretty close to the edge... Seems like it wouldn't be waaay too hard to get to when you really needed it. Most of the firmware layouts have a key combination that you can use to reprogram too.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 23 February 2013, 11:24:47
There are also a RESET and a GND through hole pad on the Teensy, which are very easy to short out to do exactly the same thing the button does. I have put magnetic switches between them on my other projects using Teensys =D
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Mon, 25 February 2013, 21:41:51
key64, how does the "Fn0" key work?
Hi, you probably already know the answer to your question as in some way the goal of every Fn key is to solve the lack of keys like in a laptop keyboard, the key64 (http://www.key64.org) is so simple in such a way that it removes many of the functional keys and allow them on a second layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#fn-pressed) which is a hardware layer, and a alternate layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#alt-gr-pressed) which is a software layer and is commonly manage through the AltGr/Option key combination and is operating system dependent, with those two options you have enough ways to configure and to type without moving your hands so long from the home row if that is your preference.  As a personal preference the second hardware layer in the key64 is for some users who like me are typing regular expression frequently, the fact is that a standard keyboard is so painful as you will have to work with your right pinky too much and is harder to touch type, because of that the second layer is used to type symbols like {[('|&")]} which i removed from the main layer and move them at the home row in the Fn Layer, and the other ones like `~$@\^%*!#-_=+ which are usually typed using shift + <number> are located around too the idea is not to type at the keyboard periphery, so the keyboard should fit nicely from casual users to specialized users, right now i am typing at the key64 prototype and i found that very comfortable to use.
There are other layers too like the numlock layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#num-lock-layer) and the mouse layer (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described#mouse-lock-layer-new) and each of them have a Fn layer too, those two are known as 'switchable layers' that means they change the default layer via a special key combination, this will let you for example change the keyboard distribution like (qwerty, colemak, dvorak) which are the ones the key64 support at this moment and we also have the console key which is the 64th key which is used for debugging the firmware, change keyboard layouts, lock keyboard, send debug commands or whatever you want to program it for.
nesiax,
Sounds like key64 is well thought out.  My question is more basic.  On the key64 Layout Described page http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described (http://www.key64.org/design/the-layout-described), do the Fn0, Fn1, Fn2, Fn4 correspond to layer numbers?  If so, how are the layers numbered?

Code: [Select]
LAYER              QUESTION
Mouse Lock Layer   What does the Fn2 key do?
Num Lock Layer     What does the Fn1 key do?

Thank you.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: listboss on Tue, 05 March 2013, 14:56:37
hello to everyone

As you can see I'm new to GH :)
First of all I'd like to thank all the main contributors who made this keyboard a reality.

As I'm waiting to get the keyboard from MassDrop, I'm trying to find and buy keycaps
from a 3rd party vendor.

I was hoping you could help me find answers to these questions:


Side note: I'm also working on a layout for programmers which is based on Workman layout and combines the ideas from
I've fallen in love with idea of using a dead key to type in programming characters. I barely use the number row anymore :)
(You can try the concept on a Mac using the OSX keyboard bundle from here (https://github.com/deekayen/workman/tree/master/mac))
I'll share it as soon as I'm done with it :)

thanks in advance
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Tue, 05 March 2013, 15:41:14
  • Is it possible to program the keyboard to have a key behave as a 'dead' key?
  • What keycap sizes should be used for the keys on the edges of the keyboard? (1.5X, 1.25X, ...)
  • Where would you suggest to get affordable keycaps?
  • Has the artist who's rendered the frontpage image of the ergodox.org made his/her work available to public? I'm asking because I want to experiment with different colors before ordering the caps.

Welcome to GH!

I'll answer to the best of my abilities:


Additionally, you might want to have a look at Massdrop's layout configurator (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/), this is currently the simplest way of rebinding keys, although other services are under development, and you can always modify the firmware yourself (github) (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware)

I hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 05 March 2013, 15:45:09
2. What keycap sizes should be used for the keys on the edges of the keyboard? (1.5X, 1.25X, ...)
3. Where would you suggest to get affordable keycaps?[/li][/list]

Currently, WASD Keyboards (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products.html?dir=asc&limit=all&order=price) seems to be your best and cheapest bet, and this post may be relevant to your interests:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg767289#msg767289

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 05 March 2013, 15:51:50
Dead keys is really an OS side feature.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 06 March 2013, 16:05:16
MD sent this to GB participants the other day:

(http://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/product-images/ergodox%20aluminumsheet.JPG)
(http://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/product-images/ergodoxinsheetvertical.JPG)
(http://massdropinc.s3.amazonaws.com/product-images/ergodoxalumsittingonbench.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 06 March 2013, 16:20:54
snap this update went to my spam box for some reason, wth

thanks for posting this

another update friday they say

it sounds like this could come in while i'm out on 2 weeks of business trips next month, though i could be wrong. bummer.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: listboss on Sat, 09 March 2013, 20:21:10

Additionally, you might want to have a look at Massdrop's layout configurator (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/), this is currently the simplest way of rebinding keys, although other services are under development, and you can always modify the firmware yourself (github) (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware)

I hope this helps! :)

@Zifle @SubGothius @alaricljs

thanks for the info guys, appreciated.
For the dead-key, it seems I need to wait for it to be implemented in the firmware.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Llamas on Mon, 11 March 2013, 18:03:23
So, having missed the group buy, I'm trying to figure out what it would take to make one of these. I've seen the list of components, but I'm not clear on my PCB options. Is there an existing source or recommendations for a fabrication service? I can probably fashion a case myself, seeing how the pre-fab options are kind of pricey outside of the group buy context.

Thanks,

--Mike
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Mon, 11 March 2013, 18:26:09
All the PCBs I know of have been made through pcbwing (http://www.pcbwing.com).  Or you could wire it up without one, like this guy (http://blog.fsck.com/2012/12/building-a-keyboard-part-1.html) :)

Edit:
Or you could wait till the a while after the group buy, and see if people start selling their extras.  I dunno how to predict what that market'll be like though.
Or you could wait till MD does another group buy, lol.  It seems likely that they will relatively soon, since last I checked there were >150 people who'd registered interest (on their site).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 11 March 2013, 20:24:33
Also, some folks over at Deskthority stayed out of the MassDrop group buy for religious or philosophical reasons and intend to start their own group buy.  It will probably take a long time, however.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Llamas on Tue, 12 March 2013, 19:01:23
Hmm...Now you have me thinking about trying to wire up a keyboard on a breadboard. What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 March 2013, 08:28:18
You could lose your mind.
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Wed, 13 March 2013, 08:30:23
You could lose your mind.
Hm, don't think that'd be that bad. Most of us already have. :))
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Llamas on Wed, 13 March 2013, 11:52:16
You could lose your mind.

That ship has sailed. And sunk.

I'm trying to get my head around stabilizing the switches. If I understand correctly, the through-hole version of the MX switch has a stabilizing pin/lug, which I'm guessing is what the 4mm hole is for in the middle of each key on the PCB. So, if I were not using a plate, I'd need to drill out those holes to accomodate the switches.

I could also offer a chicken as a sacrifice.

--Mike
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 March 2013, 13:49:47
That 4mm center pin is on all the switches.  PCB mount adds 2 smaller pins to either side of it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: gdaian on Fri, 15 March 2013, 08:31:07
Massdrop has 200+ requests for another GB. They will probably run it as soon as this batch has shipped. Since Chinese New Year is now over, you may be able to get your hands on an ErgoDox 8-10 weeks from now. I think we may even see a DCS keycap buy.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 15 March 2013, 08:45:04
Hmm I suppose they may do another run then. No idea when that would be though.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sun, 17 March 2013, 01:43:26
So last mass-drop update makes it sound like they could start shipping these end of the week or just a little later. not sure how many they can fulfill each day though.

Quote
By this time next week, we hope the first ErgoDox kits will already be in the mail!

they better damn come, i got to go on an extended business trip the beginning of April, would kill me for it to come in while i'm gone, worse if someone stole the package.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Mon, 18 March 2013, 12:29:42
So last mass-drop update makes it sound like they could start shipping these end of the week or just a little later. not sure how many they can fulfill each day though.

Quote
By this time next week, we hope the first ErgoDox kits will already be in the mail!

they better damn come, i got to go on an extended business trip the beginning of April, would kill me for it to come in while i'm gone, worse if someone stole the package.

I leave on my own extended business trip next monday. :(
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Mon, 18 March 2013, 12:46:41
I'm glad people keep updating this thread with massdrop updates because I cancelled my sub to updates, and can't seem to figure out how to sign up for them again xD.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: automator on Fri, 22 March 2013, 19:31:15
How big of a deal do you think the lack of contour would be for a long time Kinesis user?

Man I remember some years ago emailing Kinesis ... I think it was after they came out with their freestyle, asked "When are you going to make a fully split contour?"
And the answer was something like "No plans at this time."

Though TBH when i'm using the mbp keyboard its not the lack of contour that bothers me.


Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 22 March 2013, 22:12:24
pcbs arrived. shipping mi next.week

cheerz,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: vatin on Tue, 26 March 2013, 00:53:11
From Massdrop discussion page, I saw a mention they are starting the 2nd group buy soon.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:37:21
My order arrived !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:43:24
My order arrived !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow that was crazy fast!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:47:21
That's pretty exciting.  Congratulations on being the first.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:48:13
I couldn't believe it. The spherical PBT keycaps are interesting, will see how it goes!
Wow there's 284 requests on massdrop (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox) for a 2nd round of ergodox kits, that's awesome, I hope this design really takes off into the mainstream!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AKIMbO on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:48:59
I know. The spherical PBT keycaps are interesting, will see how it goes!
Wow there's 284 requests on massdrop (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox) for a 2nd round of ergodox kits, unbelievable!


Did you get any kind of a tracking number or did the package just show up?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 27 March 2013, 20:50:52
I didn't not get a tracking number in the email, however I checked my order status on MD earlier today and saw the tracking number.
So click your username -> My transactions -> recent transactions on massdrop.com and you'll see a tracking number if they shipped yours.
Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Wed, 27 March 2013, 21:04:52
Just got mine as well. the fulfillment center Is probably their headquarters in Palo Alto
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 27 March 2013, 21:27:59
Mine should arrive Tuesday. Been waiting a year and a half for this lol
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 27 March 2013, 22:03:00
damnit why didnt they give a heads up and why didn't they offer a expedited shipping. mine says tuesday but shipped tuesday

i'm on business trip next week and i wont get my ergodox before then bah, if it by some miracle comes friday ill solder it up saturday and program it on the road in my hotel rooms (LOL)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Wed, 27 March 2013, 22:41:47
Omg, that's awesome news!!! :)
Now let's see how long it takes the German customs to process it... :/
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 27 March 2013, 23:11:13
35 bucks for PBT keycaps!!! Can't believe I missed out on the keycaps!!! How do they feel? Thick? Heavy? Any better than OEM ASB?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 27 March 2013, 23:51:39
it was pretty good deal for the keycaps and in my opinion the whole ergodox kit is a good deal

im pretty excited

and gotta love how the phantom should ship in the coming weeks, its gonna be a damn keyboard factory all up in my house
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 27 March 2013, 23:53:44
My GH60 is shipping with my Phantom.... I think my factory will be bigger! haha. Not sure if all of them comming in at once is a good thing or not...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 27 March 2013, 23:57:01
i should take some vacation days to build these lol
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Thu, 28 March 2013, 00:08:27
Mine Ergodox kit and keycaps also sent out couple days ago. Excellent.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 28 March 2013, 01:41:44
Hmm.. That's funny, mine says shipped, but there's no tracking number. Different shipping methods?  But it should be here soon enough.. Excited!  How did u guys get yours before me?? I only live a day's drive south of them! Lol
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: merijn on Thu, 28 March 2013, 03:52:32
Mine is still at the sorting facility over in the US, it's going to be a long long wait~
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 28 March 2013, 21:49:30
Hmm.. That's funny, mine says shipped, but there's no tracking number. Different shipping methods?  But it should be here soon enough.. Excited!  How did u guys get yours before me?? I only live a day's drive south of them! Lol

Did you order early on in the process? They might be going through the orders in order received I suppose. I was order #1 and mine shipped out tuesday, but like Glod I'm in California on business right now (oddly enough not even that far from them, ha).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 28 March 2013, 21:51:20
Also come on friends MORE PICTURES! plz thx <3
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Thu, 28 March 2013, 21:58:46
Hmm.. That's funny, mine says shipped, but there's no tracking number. Different shipping methods?  But it should be here soon enough.. Excited!  How did u guys get yours before me?? I only live a day's drive south of them! Lol

Did you order early on in the process? They might be going through the orders in order received I suppose. I was order #1 and mine shipped out tuesday, but like Glod I'm in California on business right now (oddly enough not even that far from them, ha).

This is how they are proceeding. I received confirmation of this via IRC.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 29 March 2013, 01:38:59
i am kind of pissed about the shipping. I realize it was free and all but i ordered 2 of these things and the keycaps, seriously spent hundreds of dollars on this and massdrop ended up shipping it out the cheapest method possible. If i would have known this free shipping was so crap i would have jammed my own money down massdrop's throat for it to be shipped 2 day fedex.

Maybe by some miracle it will come Friday (today), the tracking hasn't updated since TUESDAY afternoon so maybe no news is good news. If that miracle happens maybe i can build it Saturday morning before i head out towards georgia.  sigh, this is sort of depressing.

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WRXChris on Fri, 29 March 2013, 02:33:30
oh no! Delivery scheduled for tomorrow and due to sherry's problematic payment system I still don't have springs :(. I guess it looks like I'll be cannibalizing this mx brown g80 instead, damn.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 29 March 2013, 02:35:11
Well. You may want to send the rest of the parts over this way then, I don't know anyone that likes white on black double shots, especially if they have 1.25 mods and a center stemmed caps lock, the horror!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 29 March 2013, 02:39:30
No keycaps for me... but I started soldering some diodes.
Anything wrong with smd with regular solder and a pen?

Should I clean my board with something if I am using flux core solder?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WRXChris on Fri, 29 March 2013, 02:40:51
haha true, definitely not the end of the world! it's not like I was ever going to use it anyways, I'm too addicted to custom kb's these days!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 29 March 2013, 03:41:58
Wought, just got my kit today! :D Noticed one interesting change that will make assembly a tad trickier, however...

The diodes should now mounted underside rather than topside, and a choice of SMDs and thru-hole diodes are provided; apparently this is due to inadequate room for thru-hole diodes topside between the mounting plate and PCB. I'm guessing there was a slight increase in the mounting plate thickness with whatever fab shop gave the lowest bid for plate cutting, and this meant that mounting the diodes topside wouldn't leave enough of the switch pins protruding through the PCB to solder to the underside.

It appears if we decided to use the thru-hole diodes provided instead of the SMDs, we would need to insert them from the underside and solder them same-side, rather than on the opposite side as usual. Fortunately, this would at least make it easier to clip the excess wire flush with the PCB on the topside, having no solder on that side bulking up the connection.

I'm thinking this may also make a case for getting switches with built-in diodes if available next time, as the board appears to be set up for that option already.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 29 March 2013, 04:38:50
guys we need pics! Maybe we should open a thread on constructed Ergos!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: merijn on Fri, 29 March 2013, 04:51:27
Mine hasn't moved yet, it's still in the same sorting facility is started in when it got accepted. Stupid slow americans.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 29 March 2013, 07:45:13
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 29 March 2013, 07:47:25
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,

We should NOT have swapped avatars...also, does that mean there won't be your ergodox at the meet OJ?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 29 March 2013, 07:49:51
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,

We should NOT have swapped avatars...also, does that mean there won't be your ergodox at the meet OJ?

I don't know. Ask him xD.

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ekw808 on Fri, 29 March 2013, 09:36:57
I'm curious what the aluminum case looks like.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TastyShrimp on Fri, 29 March 2013, 09:40:37
I got mine and put it together, but I'm having a couple issues:


I double checked the diodes and switch solder points, and they seem to be all fine. I'm wondering if something is grounding out against the aluminum case... Anyone have any ideas?
*edit*
I didn't look carefully enough; there was a short between one of my switches on one side of the pcb to the other caused by some sloppy soldering
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Fri, 29 March 2013, 10:30:11
Pics or it didn't happen! :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 29 March 2013, 10:38:22
Wait so through hole cant be soldered on the opposite side as the diode? So no little tiny, clipped nubs?
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 29 March 2013, 13:04:20
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,

We should NOT have swapped avatars...also, does that mean there won't be your ergodox at the meet OJ?

I don't know. Ask him xD.

Cheers,
You were asking him.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Fri, 29 March 2013, 13:39:14
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,

We should NOT have swapped avatars...also, does that mean there won't be your ergodox at the meet OJ?

I don't know. Ask him xD.

Cheers,
You were asking him.

You be trollin, hatin, patrollin tryin to catch me trippin dirty!

Cheers,
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 29 March 2013, 13:43:15
Smalls should have mine come Monday.

Cheers,

We should NOT have swapped avatars...also, does that mean there won't be your ergodox at the meet OJ?

I don't know. Ask him xD.

Cheers,
You were asking him.

You be trollin, hatin, patrollin tryin to catch me trippin dirty!

Cheers,
Hehe.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: judascleric on Fri, 29 March 2013, 16:14:25
I got my kit Wednesday, though I wasn't able to get started until yesterday because of GDC, but I built my ErgoDox in a marathon session last night. Amazingly it worked when I first plugged it in. No shorts or cold solder joints despite not having soldered on a PCB in 15 years. Using it at work today and it's working beautifully.

Here is my layout, mainly based on my TrulyErgonomic setup:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=EAZJPJ&hash=e0e7112679ee8f1e96e61c55778404df

If the F17 and F18 keys seem strange, it's a remnant of my Keyremap4Macbook scripts for the TE. They are for sticky key (3-state toggle) modifiers for my layer 1 and layer 2 mappings. I would like to replicate this functionality in the firmware of the ErgoDox, though I might see if there is some way to still get the growl notifications in OS X for visualizing the modifier state on screen similar to how sticky keys for the standard modifiers are visualized.
My Keyremap4macbook private.xml for Ergodox:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47685570/private.xml

I did have a couple issues with my MassDrop order. They forgot to put case screws and an I/O expander in my order. I actually had a full compliment of ErgoDox parts lying around already that I had bought shortly after the parts list went up, so I was okay for the I/O expander and I'm just using some extra wire to hold the case together until I can get some screws. MassDrop got back to me pretty quick about the screws so I might have some next week. Probably will try to just pick some up over the weekend if they sell them at a hardware store. I had also happened to have ordered my kit with no electronics for $40 less, but I was charged and sent eletronics anyway. Not too upset over it though. I have been planning to make my own version with a few modifications after I have lived with this one for a while.

Also need to get some rubber feet for the case. It has been sliding around on my desk a bit.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I used through-hole diodes coming up through the board, soldered on the top, snipped close to the board. Worked fine for me. Just pop a few switches in the plate layer and make sure the pins of each switch go through and the feet on the switches can seat on the PCB before you go and solder all the switches in. I put 5 or 6 switches around the edges, checked that they all fit well, and soldered them as anchors before I started putting the rest in.

[attachimg=1]
Good luck with yours everybody!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 29 March 2013, 16:48:10
looks real good

man i am excited!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 29 March 2013, 18:54:36
Wait so through hole cant be soldered on the opposite side as the diode? So no little tiny, clipped nubs?

All the circuit traces for a given hand are on the underside of that hand's PCB, so the diodes have to be soldered to the underside, same side as where all the switch leads are soldered. However, the thru-hole diodes can't sit on the topside (as originally intended) due to the thickness of the mounting plate causing clearance/spacing issues, so if you use those, you'll have to insert them from the underside and solder them same-side, then clip the excess leads flush with the topside.

That could make replacing a diode tricky if necessary (e.g., you'd need to pre-trim the leads to correct length before soldering), so MD has supplied SMD diodes as an alternative. It occurs to me you could start with thru-holes, then if it turns out you need to replace any after you've already soldered the switches in, use SMDs for the replacements.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 29 March 2013, 19:37:03
Wait so through hole cant be soldered on the opposite side as the diode? So no little tiny, clipped nubs?

All the circuit traces for a given hand are on the underside of that hand's PCB, so the diodes have to be soldered to the underside, same side as where all the switch leads are soldered. However, the thru-hole diodes can't sit on the topside (as originally intended) due to the thickness of the mounting plate causing clearance/spacing issues, so if you use those, you'll have to insert them from the underside and solder them same-side, then clip the excess leads flush with the topside.

That could make replacing a diode tricky if necessary (e.g., you'd need to pre-trim the leads to correct length before soldering), so MD has supplied SMD diodes as an alternative. It occurs to me you could start with thru-holes, then if it turns out you need to replace any after you've already soldered the switches in, use SMDs for the replacements.

damn that is going to catch some people, i really hope people are reading the discussions on MassDrop and Geekhack before proceeding to assemble.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wasabah on Fri, 29 March 2013, 22:04:23
Damn it, I really need some pictures. Not sure if I understand everything about the diodes right.. xD
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 29 March 2013, 22:07:31
MD has revised their assembly instructions page (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php) accordingly, but yeah, if people are eagerly jumping into assembly from memory of the old instructions, and considering that soldering the diodes is the first step and one of the easiest to perform, I reckon some folks might start off on the wrong foot. :(
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 29 March 2013, 22:19:52
There is the third option which allows you to use through-hole diodes:

opening up the switches and inserting them in. its a hassle to do, but for those looking to sticker/lube their switches prior to assembly, its only one extra step, and since the diodes would be in the switches, there wouldn't be clearance issues. I'd probably do that as my switches are already dismantled in preparation for my kit to arrive if smds prove too hard for me to do by hand.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 30 March 2013, 01:36:16
All the diode pads are through plated. It doesn't matter which side you place them, SMD or through hole alike. The only problem is the acrylic plate of course. Just wanted to get that right =)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 30 March 2013, 01:55:00
Wait so through hole cant be soldered on the opposite side as the diode? So no little tiny, clipped nubs?

All the circuit traces for a given hand are on the underside of that hand's PCB, so the diodes have to be soldered to the underside, same side as where all the switch leads are soldered

Actually I just tried with a continuity tester what I suspected by visual inspection, and it looks like the hole tops and hole bottoms are connected. I believe this is called plated-through holes. So you could even solder the SMD diodes on the top side instead of the bottom side if you liked and it would work. Same with regular diodes, soldering them on either side would work.  Not sure about the spacing issue, isn't the switch plate supposed to have some distance from the PCB ?
BTW can anyone tell from the gerber files if ALL holes are plated-thru? 
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 30 March 2013, 02:06:54
Pan up an inch =)

Edit: To actually add something, there are six possible diode locations per switch (almost all of them). More or less usable depending on what kind of case you are using.

Edit again: And the switch center holes, as well as the mounting holes are the only ones not through plated. They are in the ErgoDOX-NPTH.drl file (Non Plated Through Hole). And actually the unused pads for the expander...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 30 March 2013, 04:19:38
What do you all think?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 30 March 2013, 15:12:41
am i seeing correctly that you did one hand with surface mount and the other with through hole?

bah, im really starting to get a bit a pissed about this cheap shipping they used, i spend half a grand on these and the last time ups ground updated their status was Tuesday.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sat, 30 March 2013, 15:18:53
Glod, I hope your day is going fine and that you and yours are well. Please don't expend energy on things that don't matter :). You will get your stuff with a little time.

I'm scared of doing the surface mounted diodes because I only have a ****ty cheap pen. I'm pretty good at soldering now though, so maybe I'll be fine?
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Sat, 30 March 2013, 15:20:02
... I reckon some folks might start off on the wrong foot.
Don't ya mean hand?

John
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 30 March 2013, 15:59:28
... I reckon some folks might start off on the wrong foot.
Don't ya mean hand?

John
LOL!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 30 March 2013, 16:00:21
I got my kit Wednesday, though I wasn't able to get started until yesterday because of GDC, but I built my ErgoDox in a marathon session last night. Amazingly it worked when I first plugged it in. No shorts or cold solder joints despite not having soldered on a PCB in 15 years. Using it at work today and it's working beautifully.

Here is my layout, mainly based on my TrulyErgonomic setup:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=EAZJPJ&hash=e0e7112679ee8f1e96e61c55778404df

If the F17 and F18 keys seem strange, it's a remnant of my Keyremap4Macbook scripts for the TE. They are for sticky key (3-state toggle) modifiers for my layer 1 and layer 2 mappings. I would like to replicate this functionality in the firmware of the ErgoDox, though I might see if there is some way to still get the growl notifications in OS X for visualizing the modifier state on screen similar to how sticky keys for the standard modifiers are visualized.
My Keyremap4macbook private.xml for Ergodox:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/47685570/private.xml

I did have a couple issues with my MassDrop order. They forgot to put case screws and an I/O expander in my order. I actually had a full compliment of ErgoDox parts lying around already that I had bought shortly after the parts list went up, so I was okay for the I/O expander and I'm just using some extra wire to hold the case together until I can get some screws. MassDrop got back to me pretty quick about the screws so I might have some next week. Probably will try to just pick some up over the weekend if they sell them at a hardware store. I had also happened to have ordered my kit with no electronics for $40 less, but I was charged and sent eletronics anyway. Not too upset over it though. I have been planning to make my own version with a few modifications after I have lived with this one for a while.

Also need to get some rubber feet for the case. It has been sliding around on my desk a bit.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I used through-hole diodes coming up through the board, soldered on the top, snipped close to the board. Worked fine for me. Just pop a few switches in the plate layer and make sure the pins of each switch go through and the feet on the switches can seat on the PCB before you go and solder all the switches in. I put 5 or 6 switches around the edges, checked that they all fit well, and soldered them as anchors before I started putting the rest in.

(Attachment Link)
Good luck with yours everybody!
Did they not include screws for the case? :confused:
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 30 March 2013, 16:57:46
Stayed up all night... Hardware is pretty much complete. Just some switches and led left. Hope there are no coldies'! I would recommend smd if you can. My left hand which is through hole seems to take up more space. I did my best to clip everything but for some reason the switches dont go down as low as the right side. (Which I have only yet to notice it on the bottom. Not sure if it will be evident on top.) I desoldered the left hand last night and well see today if I could get the switches more flushed.

I will probably post pics and more comments in alittle.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TastyShrimp on Sat, 30 March 2013, 17:22:25
A handy technique for smd soldering I ended up using was to apply a little solder to one of the pads on the board, then taking the diode with a pair of tweezers, reheat the solder on the board and slide the diode in. Then, apply solder on the other side like normal. One thing to note is that I did end up having quite a few cold joints doing this quickly, so make sure that you examine them carefully and reapply solder as necessary.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sat, 30 March 2013, 18:47:14
A handy technique for smd soldering I ended up using was to apply a little solder to one of the pads on the board, then taking the diode with a pair of tweezers, reheat the solder on the board and slide the diode in. Then, apply solder on the other side like normal. One thing to note is that I did end up having quite a few cold joints doing this quickly, so make sure that you examine them carefully and reapply solder as necessary.

For newbs: how does one diagnose/locate cold joints? Just individual switches that aren't transmitting when pressed?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 30 March 2013, 18:52:17
Yeah, how do you test it before you put switches on? I have switchss on but yet to test it lol
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 30 March 2013, 19:20:38
Tacking diodes:
http://tinyurl.com/dxa4bwh
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sat, 30 March 2013, 21:09:09
Much appreciated, TheQsanity. Not so scary after watching that :).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sat, 30 March 2013, 21:16:36
So have only two or three people received their boards so far or something? I'd think there would be more pictures & videos by now.

HINT
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Sat, 30 March 2013, 21:38:07
I got mine Thursday but I'm starting by grinding, chamfering and polishing the aluminum case first. By then maybe I'll have worked up the courage to try to solder together the electronics.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 30 March 2013, 22:13:22
No problem Glissant...

Just to note: a newbie mistake by me. Load the firmware on the teensy before you guys solder on the switches. Use a piece of metal(like tweezers) to short the holes where the switch pins would go.
I got too excited and rushed to switches before I had a chance to test it. I knew the risk at the time but I took my chances lol. It would help if you had a laptop. So you wouldnt have to walk back and forth.

Heres a nice keytester I found on the web: http://tinyurl.com/c6y8sam

And if anyone is shopping for solder, get the thinnest one. I have kinda thick one relatively thick to the pad and I waste more than I need to. Smaller also means it heats up faster and you have more control on how much goes in.

The gloves in the video are just to prevent smudges on the case.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Sat, 30 March 2013, 23:05:26
I got mine Thursday but I'm starting by grinding, chamfering and polishing the aluminum case first. By then maybe I'll have worked up the courage to try to solder together the electronics.
Are you documenting the process? I'm planning on doing similar, but have no experience working with aluminum.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sat, 30 March 2013, 23:26:45
If someone is second guessing there purchase, I will take it off your hands :D

I will take it assembled or dis assembled!

Shoot me a PM


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Sun, 31 March 2013, 05:16:54
I got mine Thursday but I'm starting by grinding, chamfering and polishing the aluminum case first. By then maybe I'll have worked up the courage to try to solder together the electronics.
Are you documenting the process? I'm planning on doing similar, but have no experience working with aluminum.

I'm going to try to take pictures of the process. My problem is that I get so involved with the task at hand that I either forget or don"t want to interrupt the process. Of course there's always the vanity of not wanting to display my ineptness if it doesn't turn out quite perfect. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I submit pictures because of work demands.

Oddly enough, it's often the contributors who include their own missteps that either teach us the most, or at least give us the permission to attempt something new. Reminds me of an amoral version of one of my favorite quotes by Blaise Pascal-  "We sometimes  learn more from the sight of evil than the example of good".
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bishboria on Sun, 31 March 2013, 06:45:16
Hi folks,

I just found out about the ergodox yesterday and think it would be perfect.

I'm not very handy with a soldering iron, so I'd be interested in one that was pre-assembled with Cherry mx brown switches.

How long am I likely to wait to get one?

Cheers,
bishboria
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ekw808 on Sun, 31 March 2013, 08:08:24
Until the second group buy, or most likely 2-3 weeks when many GH users realize that this was not the keyboard for them and they are running "low" on funds.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bishboria on Sun, 31 March 2013, 08:15:48
Until the second group buy, or most likely 2-3 weeks when many GH users realize that this was not the keyboard for them and they are running "low" on funds.

Not for them? How so?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ekw808 on Sun, 31 March 2013, 08:35:14
Just wait a few weeks and keep an eye out in the classified section.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sun, 31 March 2013, 08:36:55
Until the second group buy, or most likely 2-3 weeks when many GH users realize that this was not the keyboard for them and they are running "low" on funds.

Not for them? How so?

It's nice to see pictures and think you like a keyboard but until you actually type on a keyboard for a few weeks, you won't actually know if the keyboard will fit you.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bishboria on Sun, 31 March 2013, 09:14:54
It's nice to see pictures and think you like a keyboard but until you actually type on a keyboard for a few weeks, you won't actually know if the keyboard will fit you.

I currently use the blank key cap TypeMatrix (some keys are dying and it's time for something better). The layout was an amazing improvement over the standard MacBook Pro keyboard.

However, it's lack of symmetry (only one command key, ctrl keys different sizes and slightly different places, etc) is starting to annoy me. And the command key is positioned such that I'm getting cramps in my left thumb...

ErgoDox looks like it should solve all those problems for me.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Sun, 31 March 2013, 12:49:09
Can't we have a blank DCS keycap set group buy? I don't think Massdrop is going to make one...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 31 March 2013, 13:12:59
Can't we have a blank DCS keycap set group buy? I don't think Massdrop is going to make one...

Go start one?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Sun, 31 March 2013, 13:15:12
A kinesis/ Ergodox/ etc GB of blank PBT DSA caps would be pretty sweet. I wonder how many of the ergo guys would be into that.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 31 March 2013, 13:35:18
A kinesis/ Ergodox/ etc GB of blank PBT DSA caps would be pretty sweet. I wonder how many of the ergo guys would be into that.

I'd probably pick up a set or two.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sun, 31 March 2013, 13:39:52
Blank PBT DSA caps. Wasn't there a massdrop for that? https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 31 March 2013, 14:14:30
Blank PBT DSA caps. Wasn't there a massdrop for that? https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap

Oh. Err. I meant DCS. I'd throw down for a set or two of DCS-family keys. I believe there was discussion of there eventually being a DCS buy, which was why I didn't go in on the DSA one.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 31 March 2013, 14:15:10
I asked massdrop a week or two ago. They said another gb was soon and I asked if they could include both layouts for the people that missed out. The massdrop guy said he'll tell the guys that are orgonizing it. I dont think they will start another keycap gb until they start another ergodox gb.

I think if we can get the same price that massdrop did, that we should definitely start our own gb.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Sun, 31 March 2013, 14:19:52
Blank PBT DSA caps. Wasn't there a massdrop for that? https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap

That's ergodox specific though.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glissant on Sun, 31 March 2013, 14:29:04
Yes?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jwaz on Sun, 31 March 2013, 22:43:21
Yes?

So... I was speaking about a group buy for flat profile keys of that style with PBT plastic for other ergonomic keyboards, using the Massdrop DSA set as an example...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 31 March 2013, 23:01:52
So... I was speaking about a group buy for flat profile keys of that style with PBT plastic for other ergonomic keyboards, using the Massdrop DSA set as an example...

Seeing as this is the ErgoDox thread, perhaps you'd do best to start a new thread about that over in the Interest Checks (http://geekhack.org/index.php?board=132.0) section, or if you want Massdrop to run it, contact them directly, or do both -- gauge interest, then bring the proposal to MD if nobody wants to organize the GB here.

Simple GBs like a keycap set are often self-organized; the main reason MD got involved in the ErgoDox GB was due to the logistics of organizing acquisition and distribution of such a complex kit with so many custom-fab'd pieces, which IMO they handled with flying colors.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 01 April 2013, 00:30:43
still no tracking update since Tuesday.....
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mushrew on Mon, 01 April 2013, 01:02:16
finished mine, no major problems, just had to do some filing of the PCB which was annoying and a bit time consuming.

pics: http://imgur.com/a/19G41
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: william on Mon, 01 April 2013, 22:06:50
i was hoping to be able to have a layout with some non-standard shifted states along with having a few of the keys on the second layer to be in their shifted state, such as ampersand and the parenthesis.

more or less what i would like to make it do:
[attach=1]

is writing macros into the firmware pretty straightforward?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: listboss on Tue, 02 April 2013, 01:46:40
I am gonna get mine tomorrow and hopefully WASD Keyboards can print my custom designed keycaps:
(I've missed all the GBs so far!)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/675947/ergo-workman.png

(It's using ancient Persian symbols for numbers which are on Layer 1: concept here (http://goo.gl/EshIJ))

This is also the first iteration of layout I am working on:
https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=B4TGAU&hash=1ba6436c27e00d690238a8b9a20afec2
Which relies on having the ability to add macros to the firmware.

Any other tool for designing the layout other than MassDrops' cofigurator?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 02 April 2013, 03:14:11
Finished mine, couldn't wait till the weekend. I used switches with pins and integrated diodes. For the 3 switches with the LEDs I opened the switches, removed the diodes to make room for the LED's and soldered the diodes on the underside of the PCB.
I put a blank Kinesis set on it and the default dvorak layout for now.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: islisis on Tue, 02 April 2013, 03:45:01
Gotta say the acryllic looks great, as do the kinesis caps  ;)

Look forward to hearing how a flat layout compares to a contoured one!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 02 April 2013, 04:02:34
That acrylic looks very fine indeed, I might consider getting one of them as well.  ;D
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 02 April 2013, 10:58:17
Just got home this morning to find my box at home! Very excited.

One question: the surface mount diodes aren't colorfully marked, so it's tough to determine how to orient them just by using the instructional photos. When looking at the switch holes "right side up" (i.e. diode contacts on "bottom") should the print on the diode be right side up, or upside down?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: nesiax on Tue, 02 April 2013, 11:39:49
Until the second group buy, or most likely 2-3 weeks when many GH users realize that this was not the keyboard for them and they are running "low" on funds.
From my point of view the success or failure when using the ergodox is secondary and only time will tell you if that solve your requirement for a keyboard, perhaps the commercial options around are better ? i don't think so; what is is really important is what people have done : collaborate together on a common goal, that's the most important thing, people join and share their experience, skills and knowledge for the benefit of a community ; for me the best part is yet to come when people start to assembly the keyboard and start to mod it to their needs, just the fact of having a programmable controller gives you a huge competitive advantage over the commercial options because they are closed source and you can't change it to behave the way you want.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 02 April 2013, 13:14:09
Just got home this morning to find my box at home! Very excited.

One question: the surface mount diodes aren't colorfully marked, so it's tough to determine how to orient them just by using the instructional photos. When looking at the switch holes "right side up" (i.e. diode contacts on "bottom") should the print on the diode be right side up, or upside down?

That's a very confusing way to go by. Just pick up the surface mount diodes with tweezers out of the peeled container as you solder them... the end pointing to the perforated side of the plastic container, is the cathode, ie the end that should point to the square solder pad. There is a very fine line marking the cathode, but it's hard to see, so use the container holes as a guide when you take them out. If you spill them, just remember, the end that has the fine line goes to the square solder pad.
And make sure to solder them on the underside of the PCB (the opposite side from the switches and other components).

Wow, I'm typing this on my ergodox :-) Dvorak layout of course.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 02 April 2013, 13:20:57
Heh, after sitting for nearly a week with a status of "Shipped (100% Complete)" for all transactions on the status page, a tracking number shows up on the page today... To add insult to injury, the shipment won't make it here until next week. Pro tip to Massdrop: don't call an order shipped until it has, you know, actually shipped. Given the lack of a tracking number, I thought it had gone out USPS and have been sitting on pins and needles wondering when it was going to show up. Not exactly the best feeling when dealing with $1K worth of parts.

(On a somewhat related note, my configuration tool is on hold until I get the keyboards and get my test board assembled. I decided that it wasn't worth working on too much further until I had something to test with (macros etc). Had Massdrop not done their own, I would have pushed to have something functioning in one form or another ASAP, but as it is I can afford to take my time.)
Title: Layout Configurator questions
Post by: wolfv on Tue, 02 April 2013, 13:42:11
Appreciate if someone could answer some Layout Configurator questions:

1) Is there a way to implement a key in Layer 1 to output "&"?
Looking at the Layout Configurator's right-click key-assignment drop-down menu, there is a Key_7_Ampersand in "Number Row" submenu, but _SHIFTED_Ampersand and other symbols are missing from "Shifted" submenu
(William posted a similar question on Reply #1799 http://65.111.241.205/index.php?topic=22780.msg839996#msg839996 (http://65.111.241.205/index.php?topic=22780.msg839996#msg839996))
(I am trying to implement a symbols layer similar to Arensito or key64.  http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard   http://www.key64.org/design)

2) Are there a "Windows" and "Menu" key?

Thank you.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 02 April 2013, 14:51:34
Mark from Massdrop:

"@Mike, the aluminum cases won't be available this time around. Our case manufacturer mis-estimated the time (and cost) it would take to build them, as a result it took a lot longer and cost them a lot more to make them. The re-quoted cost for offering them again was more than double the last time."


My face when I got the aluminium ones:
(http://yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees.com/yes.jpg)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 02 April 2013, 15:15:31

That's a very confusing way to go by. Just pick up the surface mount diodes with tweezers out of the peeled container as you solder them... the end pointing to the perforated side of the plastic container, is the cathode, ie the end that should point to the square solder pad. There is a very fine line marking the cathode, but it's hard to see, so use the container holes as a guide when you take them out. If you spill them, just remember, the end that has the fine line goes to the square solder pad.
And make sure to solder them on the underside of the PCB (the opposite side from the switches and other components).

Wow, I'm typing this on my ergodox :-) Dvorak layout of course.

Ah, ok. Cathode to square end; check.

In this case I believe I have encountered the luckiest of circumstances--I did the right hand's diodes according to the confusing convention I described above (which happens to be correct, I believe, according to what you're saying, but stopped because I grew unsure of what I was doing and because I was doing a poor job of surface mount soldering.

Good to proceed with confidence, thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 02 April 2013, 15:20:44
Mark from Massdrop:

"@Mike, the aluminum cases won't be available this time around. Our case manufacturer mis-estimated the time (and cost) it would take to build them, as a result it took a lot longer and cost them a lot more to make them. The re-quoted cost for offering them again was more than double the last time."

I actually wouldn't have a hard time believing it was due also in part to the machining problems they ran into with the aluminum. Others have reported that there are some precision issues with the aluminum cases, and mine are no exception--they required quite a bit of dremeling to fit. With my acrylic cases though, they just slid right in; perfect fit first time.

So yeah, the aluminum cases look bad ass, but you have to work for it. I'm bet MD's concern for quality control played a part too.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 02 April 2013, 15:33:15
I actually wouldn't have a hard time believing it was due also in part to the machining problems they ran into with the aluminum. Others have reported that there are some precision issues with the aluminum cases, and mine are no exception--they required quite a bit of dremeling to fit. With my acrylic cases though, they just slid right in; perfect fit first time.

So yeah, the aluminum cases look bad ass, but you have to work for it. I'm bet MD's concern for quality control played a part too.
You scare me. Now I think about the faults mine is going to have.

D:
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: natas206 on Tue, 02 April 2013, 15:46:07
Thanks Sordna for the firmware help!

It's a heavy beast. Nice and cool on the palms:
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Tue, 02 April 2013, 15:57:58

You scare me. Now I think about the faults mine is going to have.

D:

Nah, who knows, maybe you'll be the guy whose aluminums fit perfectly!

Realistically though, you should make sure you have a dremel or metal file on-hand when they arrive, just in case. They even call it out in the instructions now, so it seems like a fairly probable thing. And as always, MD are good people and I'm sure they'll provide whatever help they can, as they have at every step along the way so far.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 02 April 2013, 17:18:54
Thanks Sordna for the firmware help!

It's a heavy beast. Nice and cool on the palms:

Oh, you got the aluminum! Full hand case too, that's a great choice. Are you using the DSA keycaps?
I got them but I'll use them on my Advantage; on the Ergodox I'm using Kinesis keycaps to create a silght contour and make it easier to find my home row position.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: calavera on Tue, 02 April 2013, 18:43:15
Massdrop just started a new round for the ErgoDox. So if you missed it last time, now's your chance
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tjcaustin on Tue, 02 April 2013, 19:25:08
So tempting, esp for the possible price.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 02 April 2013, 23:01:34
My kit came some time last week (was out of town).  Too tired to start on it now, but the kit was nicely packaged.  Overall I've been very impressed with Massdrop.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 02 April 2013, 23:34:25
I got mine put together and now the O, L, '.' up column does not work. Any ideas on how I could fix this? All switches work and the diodes are all correct and work properly.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Wed, 03 April 2013, 00:21:49
If a whole column is out, my guess would be a Teensy pin isn't making a good connection, or there's a break somewhere in that column.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Wed, 03 April 2013, 00:32:48
Massdrop just started a new round for the ErgoDox. So if you missed it last time, now's your chance
Thanks for the heads up. Apparently when you have not logged in more than 30 days, SMF stops notifying of Threads you are subscribed at, so I totally missed the first GB. I seriously depend on that feature, since emails is my main method of communication, and todo list.

I will need assembly because I am SOOOO Busy at work. I still cannot believe customers are still flocking after so many derps the company has done.

I really dislike Massdrop's entire php interface. So buggy and open. But they achieved the CMS first. Nice embedded jokes. Whatever, Viva ErgoDox!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 03 April 2013, 00:49:30
I made my Ergodox produce a click sound similar to my Kinesis Advantage. I wired a 2KHz buzzer, sparkfun part number COM-07950, to D5 and GND of the teensy, and added 4 lines of code! You can also hookup an LED and you get momentary flashes for every keystroke. I'M SO STOKED !!!

Code: [Select]
--- ../../src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ ./keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-02 22:23:58.000000000 -0700
@@ -30,6 +30,8 @@
  #define _kb_led_3_set(n)         (OCR1C = (uint8_t)(n))
  #define _kb_led_3_set_percent(n) (OCR1C = (uint8_t)((n) * 0xFF))
 
+ #define _kb_led_4_on()           (DDRD |=  (1<<5))
+ #define _kb_led_4_off()          (DDRD &= ~(1<<5))
 
  #define _kb_led_all_on() do { \
  _kb_led_1_on(); \
--- ../../src/main.c 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ ./main.c 2013-04-02 22:42:30.000000000 -0700
@@ -82,12 +82,16 @@ int main(void) {
  #define is_pressed   main_arg_is_pressed
  #define was_pressed  main_arg_was_pressed
  for (row=0; row<KB_ROWS; row++) {
+ if (row == 0)
+ _kb_led_4_off();
+
  for (col=0; col<KB_COLUMNS; col++) {
  is_pressed = (*main_kb_is_pressed)[row][col];
  was_pressed = (*main_kb_was_pressed)[row][col];
 
  if (is_pressed != was_pressed) {
  if (is_pressed) {
+         _kb_led_4_on();
  layer = main_layers_peek(0);
  main_layers_pressed[row][col] = layer;
  } else {
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Wed, 03 April 2013, 01:13:49
@sordna
N-n-nice. I assume you can do more, you have more registers play with on the teensy. Also, you can make an addition loop for 2n+1 cycles, and interpret the registers differently, for other applications (dubstep buzzer, I mean, morse code buzzer) [attachimg=1]
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 03 April 2013, 01:33:47
Here is my loosely attached buzzer. I'll probably solder it to the teensy, facing up. Other buzzers like the Note 61-223-0 also work, but the COM-07950 sounds closer to a click and is smaller than all the others I tried. Now I probably need to drill the top acrylic plate to make room for the buzzer, and somehow try not to obscure the teensy program button...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: shawn on Wed, 03 April 2013, 02:34:54
Hey folks. I'm from Canada, and just got my ergodox kits today.

Can't wait to get it all hooked up. :)

Have a good day.

-Shawn
Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Wed, 03 April 2013, 02:52:48
Hey folks. I'm from Canada, and just got my ergodox kits today.

Can't wait to get it all hooked up. :)

Have a good day.

-Shawn

Nice!!! I hope mine show up this week :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Wed, 03 April 2013, 06:23:48
one of my kits showed up all the way up in Singapore yesterday. Considering my past experience with USPS, I was pleasantly surprised that shipping took less than 5 days. Much props to Massdrop for how smoothly this went.

Took about 12 hours to assemble it, including stickering, lubing and figuring out the layout I want to use. Typing on one of these bad boys at the moment. Oh, those non staggered columns are giving my brain a rewiring.
Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ekw808 on Wed, 03 April 2013, 06:50:30
The aluminum case definitely needs to be anodized, it is raw, and unfinished  and I could definitely see someone getting a splinter because of it... Hopefully the pcb will still fit in the case afterwards.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Wed, 03 April 2013, 07:36:13
The aluminum case definitely needs to be anodized, it is raw, and unfinished  and I could definitely see someone getting a splinter because of it... Hopefully the pcb will still fit in the case afterwards.

I was surprised by how sharp the raw edges were. You will probably want to do some work on the case even before it's anodized.
  It's my understanding that anodizing requires good prep work because it will actually accentuate any flaws in the surface.
 [attachimg=1]

I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Wed, 03 April 2013, 07:44:30
I was surprised by how sharp the raw edges were. You will probably want to do some work on the case even before it's anodized.
  It's my understanding that anodizing requires good prep work because it will actually accentuate any flaws in the surface.
  (Attachment Link)

I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.

The one you reworked on the right looks very nice.  How did you do it?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 03 April 2013, 08:39:30
If a whole column is out, my guess would be a Teensy pin isn't making a good connection, or there's a break somewhere in that column.

The solder was not touching a couple of the pads of the Teensy. Everything works fine now.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img820/4421/img20130403010817.jpg)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OPTiK on Wed, 03 April 2013, 09:54:31
The aluminum case definitely needs to be anodized, it is raw, and unfinished  and I could definitely see someone getting a splinter because of it... Hopefully the pcb will still fit in the case afterwards.

I was surprised by how sharp the raw edges were. You will probably want to do some work on the case even before it's anodized.
  It's my understanding that anodizing requires good prep work because it will actually accentuate any flaws in the surface.
  (Attachment Link)

I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.

What bit size/tool did you use to countersink the hole?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Wed, 03 April 2013, 10:16:01
I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.
Some kind of small tutorial would be really nice for us who have not worked with metal that much before.  :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Wed, 03 April 2013, 10:17:50
I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.

This is really quite impressive. How did you get the edges rounded so nicely, and the sides so flush?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 03 April 2013, 16:34:56
does anyone have a picture of a built ergodox with stabilizers put in?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 03 April 2013, 18:12:34
Here you go. I put them in but one side popped out because the wedge that normally grabs the underside of the plate (on normal keyboards with thin plates) needs to be filed off so it becomes like the red portion in the photo you provided in another thread:
(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41937.0;attach=17766;image)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 00:17:42
I just assembled mine but the left hand isn't working at all. :( The right hand works perfectly. I'm looking for some help.

Some things I've tried/noticed:
1. Plugging in and out the 3.5mm cable from the right hand side cause the LEDs to go on and off. They all go on when the keyboard is momentarily not working and then off when it's working (kind of like it has to be redetected by Windows when you do this). This leads me to believe the 3.5mm jack on the right hand side is fine.
2. Plugging in the 3.5mm cable to the left hand side while the 3.5mm and USB cable from the right hand side is plugged in causes Windows to play the device connected sound.
3. Using a multimeter gives me positive results when touching matching solder points on the two 3.5mm jacks.

I'm guessing that it must be the I/O expander. The only other things I can imagine would be the two shorts you have to create near the 3.5mm jack on the left side or the 3.5mm jack on the left side itself, but since I can get signal when touching matching solder points on the two 3.5mm jacks it shouldn't be either of those, right? I'm not really sure exactly what to test with a multimeter in all honesty, I merely borrowed one from my brother to poke around somewhat aimlessly and could use some tips on what to check for.

I also don't have a solder suck, only some copper braid which is apparently like the crappy way to attempt to remove solder. I haven't had any luck trying to desolder the I/O expander so I can try resoldering it. Any tips on how to desolder without a solder suck and with only copper braid available?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 04 April 2013, 00:29:09
I also don't have a solder suck, only some copper braid which is apparently like the crappy way to attempt to remove solder. I haven't had any luck trying to desolder the I/O expander so I can try resoldering it. Any tips on how to desolder without a solder suck and with only copper braid available?

Really? I have both and I totally suck at using the solder sucker; I only ever have luck with solder wicks. My solder freezes up far too fast for me to get the sucker into position. Either I'm slow or I'm being too careful, or I just have no idea how to use the thing.

As for copper though, basically I just try to lay the wick between the pencil and the solder I'm removing, and then just heat the wick itself until I can see the solder flowing through it; wait an extra second or two and remove.

Sidenote: so how does an experienced solder soldier use a sucker, practically speaking? I'd love to make use of this tool if it's useful.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 00:30:36
Please post clear photos of the IO expander area / 3.5mm jack area, both from the PCB top and bottom, it would help a lot. Also, maybe you soldered the expander the other way around?
The edge of the chip with the cutout/notch should point to the right, as you look at the keyboard.

edit: Use the solder sucker while keeping the iron on the joint. Don't bother pulling the iron away. It's ok if the iron touches the sucker, any decent sucker can withstand the heat.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 00:33:13
Will do so earliest I can, which will be late tomorrow night. The dimple on the I/O expander is at the corner where the square mark is on the PCB, so I assume I've got that ground connected right. This was my first time soldering though, so I suspect just poor work on my part on one or more of the pins is indeed the problem, though I can't readily identify things that are problematic at a glance.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Thu, 04 April 2013, 01:19:36
Did you bridge the two pads at the top left, next to the capacitor?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 04 April 2013, 07:48:21
I am really surprised no one has put anime girls into that big-clear acrylic hand portion.

would've thought that's the first thing they'd do.. with all the miku-s and pokemons.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 07:58:21
Did you bridge the two pads at the top left, next to the capacitor?

That (and the capacitor itself) is not required. I built mine without doing that, and it worked fine. But I did bridge them afterwards.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OPTiK on Thu, 04 April 2013, 09:04:57
Does anyone know if the Litster case design on the ergodox site the same template that the massdrop gb used?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Thu, 04 April 2013, 10:03:15
Does anyone know if the Litster case design on the ergodox site the same template that the massdrop gb used?

That's correct. Massdrop worked with Litster to incorporate his designs into the buy.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 13:07:21
I am really surprised no one has put anime girls into that big-clear acrylic hand portion.

would've thought that's the first thing they'd do.. with all the miku-s and pokemons.

Sounds cool, but would take a lot of effort to cut it to fit around the keys.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: regack on Thu, 04 April 2013, 13:48:18
I am really surprised no one has put anime girls into that big-clear acrylic hand portion.

would've thought that's the first thing they'd do.. with all the miku-s and pokemons.

Sounds cool, but would take a lot of effort to cut it to fit around the keys.

I think tp4tissue was thinking of the full-hand version...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: spm on Thu, 04 April 2013, 16:21:30
Is there something like bill in the package? My ErgoDox is now at customs office. Package arrived with declared price 90$ and now I have to show them payment confirmation and pay customs. It will be better to pay customs from 90$ but I have to eliminate option that they open package and see real price :-)))
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 16:24:08
I am really surprised no one has put anime girls into that big-clear acrylic hand portion.

would've thought that's the first thing they'd do.. with all the miku-s and pokemons.

Sounds cool, but would take a lot of effort to cut it to fit around the keys.

I think tp4tissue was thinking of the full-hand version...

Oh, very true. He did say "acrylic hand portion." I missed that.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 17:48:16
@sordna
Alright, here are some pictures. It was my first time soldering so it looks terrible, I know. This is also the first time I looked at it so zoomed in and it's even worse than even I thought haha. I didn't have good wire cutters at the time either so the remainders of the wire used to short the contacts near the 3.5mm jack are way too long aesthetically but I'll be cutting those shorter. I'm going to try to desolder as well as I can using the copper braid I have and redo everything pictured.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 18:15:26
Soldering is not terribly bad, I've seen worse :-) My main point of concern is the lower rightmost joint in the last picture, that corner pin of the chip looks like a cold solder joint. Better redo that one. Some of the other ones on the same side look like they could use some more solder as well. If you could post 2 more hi-res photos showing the entire keyboard from top and bottom, it would help us see orientation of diodes and other components. I'm also wondering wether it's possible that the IO expander or even the TRRS cable is bad...
By the way, I wouldn't plug/unplug the TRRS cable while the keyboard is connected. Also, I wouldn't expect the computer to see this as a new USB device when plugged in, the left side of the keyboard is merely the rest of the same matrix, the computer sees this as 1 keyboard whether the left side is plugged in or not. The halves are designed for hot plugging/unplugging.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 18:27:01
Sadly this is about as hi-res as I can get, I've only got a webcam or cellphone camera to work with, which are both quite terrible. This is actually probably the worst part of my soldering as it was near the beginning. Towards the end I was quite happy with how I did on the switches, getting that healthy kind of silver cone shape running up along the pins. I used built in diodes like you, so I didn't have to worry about the SMD diodes except on the LEDs which are all working fine.

Time to struggle with copper braid!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 18:36:08
Wait !!! For switches with built-in diodes, you need to change the firmware because the cathodes on the left side face the circle pad instead of the square. Go to MD and download the source code when you build your layout, then change keyboard/ergodox/options.h so you have:

        #define  TEENSY__DRIVE_ROWS       0
        #define  TEENSY__DRIVE_COLUMNS    1
        #define  MCP23018__DRIVE_ROWS     1
        #define  MCP23018__DRIVE_COLUMNS  0

EDIT: Attaching a zip with the 3 default layouts (qwerty/dvorak/colemak) compiled with the options for switches that have integrated diodes. Pick one of the hex files and load it. This should make your left side work! Man, this has been discussed both here and MD, I asked them to allow downloading the source code for this very reason, see the Discussion tab in their layout configurator page. I'm very happy with their support on this!

[attachurl=1]
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 19:04:38
Ah, I didn't even think of that! How very true. If you'll allow me a moment I'll work on a layout real quick and then PM it to you just for a quick test. I'll get things set up to compile things on my own though later on so I don't have to hassle you. I could probably do so in linux actually but I'm not set up in Windows at the moment.

edit: Ah, see you've edited. Ignore this!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 19:27:05
So, does it work? Also what did you do regarding the 3 switches on the right side where the LEDs are supposed to go?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 19:28:36
For those ones I took out the built in diodes and used the SMD diodes. Sent you a PM just now.

Edit: Your hex worked perfectly. You saved me a bunch of troubleshooting and frustration, thanks!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: danielucf on Thu, 04 April 2013, 20:36:56
well I finally got this bad boy working and man is it going to take a long time to get used to it. Took me minutes to type this accurately without turning on some crazy layer. Not sure if I even want to get used to it, what are the benefits again? :p the fun of the build is over lol
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 21:08:18
You can build a layout without layers, if they bother you :-)   
If you really think you won't use it, then sell it to a person that wants one but can't build it, there's a few people that are looking for an assembled keyboard.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 21:47:18
Giving it a first spin now and the first thing that I notice is that the thumb keys are much further away than on the Kinesis. I've got pretty small hands so it's quite a stretch for me. I feel much more comfortable when shifting my fingers inwards one column but then all the lettering would be messed up.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 04 April 2013, 21:59:47
Giving it a first spin now and the first thing that I notice is that the thumb keys are much further away than on the Kinesis.
I was afraid of that. Have you tried using the innermost key on the bottom row as a thumbkey? I wonder if an off-center 1.25 Alt key from a G81-3000 keyboard would fit there..

Still waiting for my PCBs ... Argh, frustrating when others have got keyboards completed already. Soon now, I hope.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Thu, 04 April 2013, 22:06:54
Been away for a while.  You guys are making good progress. 

For the stabilizers, you don't really need it.  You can do what sordna says, cut the clips and glue the thing to the plate, but I don't feel any difference without stabilizers for those keys.  They are short enough to not be affected.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: oneproduct on Thu, 04 April 2013, 22:07:23
That innermost bottom row key does indeed seem like it could be a thumb key. My thumb is tempted to land between it and the actual thumb key, and either of them could probably work. I'll give it some more testing tomorrow and let you know how I feel about it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 22:41:29
I agree that the thumb clusters are too far away from the hands. If I could change something I would make the innermost column bottom key a 1x size key, which would allow to move the thumb cluster right next to the innermost bottom row key.

Alternatively, the whole thumbcluster could move a bit down and then to the right (and avoid resizing the inner column key).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Thu, 04 April 2013, 22:53:57
Been using mine for about three days and muscle memory is finally starting to kick in. Still get certain button presses wrong and definitely not as fast as I was with a traditional layout, but I can definitely feel the difference in the decrease in the amount of finger movement and the fact that I probably never did learn how to touch type in the proper way in the past.

The innermost bottom row key is indeed a very good thumb button. For a while I used it as a spacebar until I realised that if I put it as a crutch there I'd never get used to using the actual thumb button as a spacebar. Now it serves nicely as a ctrl button on the left and a shift button on the right - the position of the qwerty "?" beside the right shift is just a tad too awkward to reach, for some reason.

Here's a picture of mine, with keys pulled from an old cherry g80-8113.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8539/8618686083_d3dd5f5e9e_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/8618686083/)


Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WRXChris on Thu, 04 April 2013, 22:56:14
My kit arrived yesterday, after a shipping issue/delay and some excellent customer service by Massdrop that saved me a 40 minute drive to the UPS facility to pick it up.  Thanks Massdrop!

I plan on using SMT diodes and this will be my first time soldering SMT, but I have plenty of through-hole soldering experience.  Should I just use the .032" solder I have or should I order some .020"? 

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Thu, 04 April 2013, 23:02:45
Giving it a first spin now and the first thing that I notice is that the thumb keys are much further away than on the Kinesis. I've got pretty small hands so it's quite a stretch for me. I feel much more comfortable when shifting my fingers inwards one column but then all the lettering would be messed up.

So here are 2 alternative ways that would improve the thumbcluster position, either move it down and right, or make the lower innermost column key (the one without a keycap on the photo) a single width key, and move the thumbcluster just to the right.

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Fri, 05 April 2013, 00:02:29
I am really surprised no one has put anime girls into that big-clear acrylic hand portion.

would've thought that's the first thing they'd do.. with all the miku-s and pokemons.

Sounds cool, but would take a lot of effort to cut it to fit around the keys.

LED-lit acrylic etchings on big hand portion :cool:.  Similar to: http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2008/edge-lit-holiday-cards/
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 05 April 2013, 02:46:44
Been using mine for about three days and muscle memory is finally starting to kick in. Still get certain button presses wrong and definitely not as fast as I was with a traditional layout, but I can definitely feel the difference in the decrease in the amount of finger movement and the fact that I probably never did learn how to touch type in the proper way in the past.

The innermost bottom row key is indeed a very good thumb button. For a while I used it as a spacebar until I realised that if I put it as a crutch there I'd never get used to using the actual thumb button as a spacebar. Now it serves nicely as a ctrl button on the left and a shift button on the right - the position of the qwerty "?" beside the right shift is just a tad too awkward to reach, for some reason.

Here's a picture of mine, with keys pulled from an old cherry g80-8113.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8539/8618686083_d3dd5f5e9e_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/8618686083/)




Very very nice.
Title: Vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position
Post by: wolfv on Fri, 05 April 2013, 10:11:36
Giving it a first spin now and the first thing that I notice is that the thumb keys are much further away than on the Kinesis. I've got pretty small hands so it's quite a stretch for me. I feel much more comfortable when shifting my fingers inwards one column but then all the lettering would be messed up.

So here are 2 alternative ways that would improve the thumbcluster position, either move it down and right, or make the lower innermost column key (the one without a keycap on the photo) a single width key, and move the thumbcluster just to the right.

I vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position:
make the lower innermost column key (the one without a keycap on the photo) a single width key, and move the thumbcluster just to the right.

I already put in an order for Massdrop's second batch of ErgoDox.  Is there some way to have the design changed before the PCB and cases are cut?
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 05 April 2013, 10:26:21
My kit arrived yesterday, after a shipping issue/delay and some excellent customer service by Massdrop that saved me a 40 minute drive to the UPS facility to pick it up.  Thanks Massdrop!

I plan on using SMT diodes and this will be my first time soldering SMT, but I have plenty of through-hole soldering experience.  Should I just use the .032" solder I have or should I order some .020"? 

Thanks in advance!

Doesnt matter too much. It takes a little longer to melt the bigger one. I have both a .03 and a .022. I used .022 for smd only. They say they have the same amount of flux but the thinner one that I have doesnt leave a lot of extra flux when soldered on.

Anyone cleaned the flux off their pcb? And with what.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Fri, 05 April 2013, 12:24:59
Are the tiny solder pads for the smd's pre-soldered or are they bare pads? I am guessing bare but thought I would ask.

Thanks,
John
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tafryn on Fri, 05 April 2013, 13:14:18
Are the tiny solder pads for the smd's pre-soldered or are they bare pads? I am guessing bare but thought I would ask.

Thanks,
John

They are bare pads.
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: vatin on Fri, 05 April 2013, 14:10:42
Giving it a first spin now and the first thing that I notice is that the thumb keys are much further away than on the Kinesis. I've got pretty small hands so it's quite a stretch for me. I feel much more comfortable when shifting my fingers inwards one column but then all the lettering would be messed up.

Thank you for this important info. Another reason to give ergodox a miss. Having tiny hands the kinesis thumb cluster is already a stretch for me. Until better design comes along...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Fri, 05 April 2013, 15:28:13
@vatin
Um, I am not so sure about the condition of your hand, but if it is tiny, you should be typing with more arm and wrist movement (using the bigger muscles). I suggest a complete matrix KB (squares only), or maybe glove input device. Even then, if your hands are the issue, I need to make my pen device, for the arm handicapped.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 05 April 2013, 16:59:48
That innermost bottom row key does indeed seem like it could be a thumb key. My thumb is tempted to land between it and the actual thumb key, and either of them could probably work.
I have got an idea for extending the key from the thumb cluster into the gap.
First, instead of using 1×2 keyscaps, you would have to use 1×1 keyscaps, but instead of a regular 1-unit key for Space, use the end part of an actual Space Bar keycap, cut at an angle. Because the keycap mounts are the same for switches and stabilisers, you can attach the end of a space bar to a switch. (There are weird space bars that won't fit, but they are unusual.)
I'll show you once I have my PCBs...
Title: Re: Vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Fri, 05 April 2013, 17:34:22
I already put in an order for Massdrop's second batch of ErgoDox.  Is there some way to have the design changed before the PCB and cases are cut?

Almost certainly not. It took something like two years to realize this keyboard.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WRXChris on Fri, 05 April 2013, 18:55:10
My kit arrived yesterday, after a shipping issue/delay and some excellent customer service by Massdrop that saved me a 40 minute drive to the UPS facility to pick it up.  Thanks Massdrop!

I plan on using SMT diodes and this will be my first time soldering SMT, but I have plenty of through-hole soldering experience.  Should I just use the .032" solder I have or should I order some .020"? 

Thanks in advance!

Doesnt matter too much. It takes a little longer to melt the bigger one. I have both a .03 and a .022. I used .022 for smd only. They say they have the same amount of flux but the thinner one that I have doesnt leave a lot of extra flux when soldered on.

Anyone cleaned the flux off their pcb? And with what.

thanks man, I think I'm going to order some .02, but good to know that .03 will be okay!

I use 91+ percent rubbing alcohol and a toothbrush to clean flux, and I'm pretty sure it does the trick but I would wait for an expert to chime in.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 19:08:40
Got OrangeJewce's today! I'll  be composing a build log after I finish the first one.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-D_QiYItXRrE/UV9OsgMna3I/AAAAAAAAAtU/IAKAsjgLFnc/s912/DSCF2114.JPG)(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GiYeVVqEDd4/UV9Oz3pS_1I/AAAAAAAAAtE/Q_7F8-KuxvI/s912/DSCF2115.JPG) (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6_vjxaC_Alk/UV9UeoL8GkI/AAAAAAAAAtg/JlJuIuZb0MM/s912/DSCF2117.JPG) (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fE9R5ShhvOk/UV9h2SGeK8I/AAAAAAAAAuo/R-6bl5AnJPs/s912/DSCF2123.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 05 April 2013, 19:09:31
It's beautiful....and it has blues!! Plus that bench is awesome :D
Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Fri, 05 April 2013, 19:26:23
Just need to put switches in mine and figure out the teensy. And probably won't work cause I suck :D
Title: Re: Vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position
Post by: wolfv on Fri, 05 April 2013, 19:43:58
I already put in an order for Massdrop's second batch of ErgoDox.  Is there some way to have the design changed before the PCB and cases are cut?

Almost certainly not. It took something like two years to realize this keyboard.

Thanks AloisiusFauxly.  That makes sense.

How do design decisions get made on this open source project? (moving the thumb cluster closer to the hand for example)?
Seems like Massdrop is responsive to customers; what and who are they listening too?
There are so many places to express ErgoDox opinions:
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: william on Fri, 05 April 2013, 19:56:43
Since there hasn't been a whole lot of talk about macros, I thought I'd share with you what I've figured out so far. I don't know how to program in C, so the best I have come up with is copying, pasting, and modifying bits of Ben's existing code. Here are my results.

Tutorial
Adding a Shift modifier:


The code for this is already in the firmware, and can be applied to any existing keybinding relatively easily. Navigate to ...\keyboard\ergodox\layout\ and open the .c file that corresponds with your chosen layout. Toward the bottom of the file there should be a section like this:
Code: [Select]
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// PRESS ----------------------------------------------------------------------
const void_funptr_t PROGMEM _kb_layout_press[KB_LAYERS][KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS] = {
// LAYER 0
KB_MATRIX_LAYER(
// unused
NULL,
// left hand
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, sshprre,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, sshprre,
cntprre, cntprre, cntprre, cntprre, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel,
NULL, NULL, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
// right hand
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
sshprre, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
lpush1, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, NULL, NULL,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel
),
The code should be (more or less) formatted to look like the two halves of your keyboard. This section of the code tells us what sort of signal a key sends when it is pressed down. There is a corresponding section of code to in a minute.

All the "kprrel" represent keys that function normally with no modifiers. Keys labeled "sshprre" represent a key that will behave as if the shift key were being held when you press it. Keys labeled "lpush1" push the first layer to the top. The keys labeled "cntprre" behave as if the control key is being held when they are pressed. I had to add in a couple lines of code to make this work, which I will show you how to do soon.

If you modify any of the press states, you also need to modify their corresponding release states. They are found lower down in the code; this is what mine looks like:

Code: [Select]
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// RELEASE --------------------------------------------------------------------
const void_funptr_t PROGMEM _kb_layout_release[KB_LAYERS][KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS] = {
// LAYER 0
KB_MATRIX_LAYER(
// unused
NULL,
// left hand
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, sshprre,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, sshprre,
cntprre, cntprre, cntprre, cntprre, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel,
NULL, NULL, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
// right hand
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
sshprre, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
lpop1, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, kprrel,
kprrel, NULL, NULL,
kprrel, kprrel, kprrel
),
Note that the only difference between this section and the PRESS section is that "lpush1" is now "lpop1". That is because in my layout, this is a layer toggle key. It is only active while held down.

To change a normal key into a key shift-modified version of itself, replace "kprrel" with "sshprre" in both the PRESS and RELEASE section corresponding to that key.

Adding a Control modifier:

Adding a control modifier also requires that you change "kprrel" in both the press and release sections of the code, but they need to be changed to "cntprre", and we need to add in a couple of code snippets. Towards the to of this file is a section of code titled DEFINITIONS. Paste this line of code onto a new line somewhere in this area
Code: [Select]
#define  cntprre  &kbfun_control_press_release
Next we need to locate ...\src\lib\key-functions\public\special.c

not too far down you should find some code that looks almost identical to this:
Code: [Select]
void kbfun_control_press_release(void) {
_kbfun_press_release(IS_PRESSED, KEY_LeftControl);
kbfun_press_release();
}

Paste the above code onto a new line near the very similar code.

Locate ...\lib\key-functions\public.h
Scroll down to the section titled \\special, and paste the following code on a new line:
Code: [Select]
void kbfun_control_press_release         (void);
And that's it! Now any key can be made to act as if the control key is held when pressed. I hope this information is useful to someone.
Title: Re: Vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Fri, 05 April 2013, 20:40:51
How do design decisions get made on this open source project? (moving the thumb cluster closer to the hand for example)?
Seems like Massdrop is responsive to customers; what and who are they listening too?

Massdrop is handling the logistics based on the work of forum members here and on Deskthority. They're doing great work to get kits assembled and shipped to people, but they haven't done anything on the design side of the project.

Dox came up with the idea (hence the name), and numerous people contributed to the design process both in this thread (seriously, go to page 1 and start reading) and a matching one on DT (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html). At this point, the keyboard is done and Dox has moved on to other projects.

If you don't like the thumb cluster position, start a new thread for the ErgoWolf and see if there's any interest.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 20:51:44
Show Image
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fE9R5ShhvOk/UV9h2SGeK8I/AAAAAAAAAuo/R-6bl5AnJPs/s912/DSCF2123.JPG)

I just realized I put the switches in the plates backwards... dammit.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: esoomenona on Fri, 05 April 2013, 20:58:03
Tsk.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 21:31:08
Ok, since I put them in backwards... Question time. What happens if you put the Teensy in the other side? (We really need a different thread for building stuff)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: esoomenona on Fri, 05 April 2013, 21:40:21
Are you trying to work around not taking them out and putting them in properly? That thing doesn't look ergonomical anymore...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 05 April 2013, 21:40:32
i remember reading the ergodox thread from start to end at one point and I vaguely recall that the thumb clusters were already shifted once. After using mine for a couple of days, I find that the thumb buttons are fine where they are, and I have a feeling that bringing them closer as suggested might actually interfere with certain button presses, and it will cause problems for those with bigger hands. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing, and you'd get used to the layout as it is if you give it a chance.

p.s. I agree with the comment about the bench. it does look awesome.

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 21:49:14
Are you trying to work around not taking them out and putting them in properly? That thing doesn't look ergonomical anymore...
No... I mean put the Teensy in the left hand (under the PCB, as to not screw up the pin assignments) and the I/O expander on the right hand(under the PCB again) so that you could unplug the right half from the left and still have a half a keyboard or use it like a gamer pad.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bearcat on Fri, 05 April 2013, 21:57:48
For what it's worth, if people are interested in a smaller version of the ergodox, I've been working on one with an easier to reach thumb cluster, and a few less buttons.  More details here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40970.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40970.0).  I've got a prototype built, and i'll probably try it as my daily driver for a few more weeks to see if the thumb buttons need to shift out any further.

I am a huge fan of the ergodox -- i ordered two :) -- but once that door was opened, of course i started seeing things i wanted to change :D

If you guys are encouraged to change things around, go for it!  Prototyping, getting plates made, designing a case, these things can be done -- dox, litster, ic07 & bpiphany have blazed a great trail for us if we want to follow
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 05 April 2013, 22:09:47
i remember reading the ergodox thread from start to end at one point and I vaguely recall that the thumb clusters were already shifted once. After using mine for a couple of days, I find that the thumb buttons are fine where they are, and I have a feeling that bringing them closer as suggested might actually interfere with certain button presses, and it will cause problems for those with bigger hands. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing, and you'd get used to the layout as it is if you give it a chance.

I have very big hands and still find the thumb keys hard to reach compared to my kinesis advantage. I'm already used to the layout, I did 103 WPM on typeracer yesterday, which is actually better than what I usually get on my Advantage!
But the far large thumbkeys (ie the Enter key) is a bigger stretch compared to the Advantage.
It would only bring a benefit to move the thumbclusters closer to the hands in a future revision.
Title: Re: Vote for sordna's second alternative way to improve the thumb cluster position
Post by: wolfv on Fri, 05 April 2013, 22:33:03
Massdrop is handling the logistics based on the work of forum members here and on Deskthority. They're doing great work to get kits assembled and shipped to people, but they haven't done anything on the design side of the project.

Dox came up with the idea (hence the name), and numerous people contributed to the design process both in this thread (seriously, go to page 1 and start reading) and a matching one on DT (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html). At this point, the keyboard is done and Dox has moved on to other projects.

If you don't like the thumb cluster position, start a new thread for the ErgoWolf and see if there's any interest.
Thank you for the comprehensive answer AloisiusFauxly.
I am impressed with how the organizing came together, given the complexity of the hardware.
Really haven't seen anything like it before.  This online community is amazing.

I was hoping there might be on going development.  I will not be starting a keyboard thread.  I am lucky to have found ErgoDox when I needed it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 05 April 2013, 22:34:09
i remember reading the ergodox thread from start to end at one point and I vaguely recall that the thumb clusters were already shifted once. After using mine for a couple of days, I find that the thumb buttons are fine where they are, and I have a feeling that bringing them closer as suggested might actually interfere with certain button presses, and it will cause problems for those with bigger hands. Muscle memory is a wonderful thing, and you'd get used to the layout as it is if you give it a chance.

I have very big hands and still find the thumb keys hard to reach compared to my kinesis advantage. I'm already used to the layout, I did 103 WPM on typeracer yesterday, which is actually better than what I usually get on my Advantage!
But the far large thumbkeys (ie the Enter key) is a bigger stretch compared to the Advantage.
It would only bring a benefit to move the thumbclusters closer to the hands in a future revision.

I'll take your word for it, as I'll admit that I haven't actually been using the further 2x thumb buttons as much as I should (still stuck on using the rightmost row as an enter due to sheer habit). But the furthest 1x buttons on the inside is definitely a reach for me, to the point where I use them mainly for pushing and popping layers only. But as it is, the current ergodox feels pretty good under my fingers so far. I'd love to see a new revision in the future, but I'm good for now.

on a different note, are you going to tent your ergodox? love to see what ideas you have for it.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 05 April 2013, 22:41:45
Don't get me wrong, I love it, but there is always room for improvement. Yes I will tent it using cardboard probably. I'll post some photos when I get around to do it. For now I am still thrilled I got my clicky buzzer to work, which turns my cherry reds into clicky switches :-)

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 23:19:15
So... Idea here...
What if you installed the Teensy underneath the Left Hand and the I/O expander under the Right hand, like so...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pBBN07kE0qQ/UV-YjeIfQ3I/AAAAAAAAAu8/55RTo6BxWoI/s800/DSCF2124.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 05 April 2013, 23:30:22
You can absolutely invert the design. Easiest way to think about it, would be to basically build the keyboard normally (chips, resistors, connectors, diodes on the top side) but then flip it around to install the switches! The holes are plated through anyway, so soldering on top or bottom doesn't matter. But you'll have to modify the case or avoid using the bottom plates because the teensy and connectors will be on the bottom.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Fri, 05 April 2013, 23:31:36
What about firmware? Also, this would make an epic game/macro pad or chorded keyboard if done right.
The two configurators (one not quite ready) are out there... so would the layout just be backwards?
Advanced configurator (http://zalusithix.com/ergodox-ui/)
KISS configurator (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 06 April 2013, 00:17:51
Good question about the firmware. Yep, the default layout would probably have the key assignments mirrored! So you'd need to do build a mirrored layout on the configurator so it works properly on the ergodox. Unless you hack the main firmware to do it for you.
BTW both your links are the same, pointing to massdrop's configurator.

Firmware is very hackable, I now made the teensy LED light up whenever I am not in the main layer, it's super useful, and shows very nicely through the acrylic case! Code patch below, includes the buzzer stuff.

Code: [Select]
diff -upr ../src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h
--- ../src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-05 21:52:11.000000000 -0700
@@ -30,17 +30,29 @@
  #define _kb_led_3_set(n)         (OCR1C = (uint8_t)(n))
  #define _kb_led_3_set_percent(n) (OCR1C = (uint8_t)((n) * 0xFF))
 
+ #define _kb_led_4_on()           (PORTD |=  (1<<5))
+ #define _kb_led_4_off()          (PORTD &= ~(1<<5))
+ #define _kb_led_5_on()           (PORTD |=  (1<<4))
+ #define _kb_led_5_off()          (PORTD &= ~(1<<4))
+ #define _kb_led_6_on()           (PORTD |=  (1<<6))
+ #define _kb_led_6_off()          (PORTD &= ~(1<<6))
 
  #define _kb_led_all_on() do { \
  _kb_led_1_on(); \
  _kb_led_2_on(); \
  _kb_led_3_on(); \
+ _kb_led_4_on(); \
+ _kb_led_5_on(); \
+ _kb_led_6_on(); \
  } while(0)
 
  #define _kb_led_all_off() do { \
  _kb_led_1_off(); \
  _kb_led_2_off(); \
  _kb_led_3_off(); \
+ _kb_led_4_off(); \
+ _kb_led_5_off(); \
+ _kb_led_6_off(); \
  } while(0)
 
  #define _kb_led_all_set(n) do { \
diff -upr ../src/main.c src/main.c
--- ../src/main.c 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ src/main.c 2013-04-05 21:54:38.000000000 -0700
@@ -24,6 +24,7 @@
 
 // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
+uint8_t       layers_head = 0;
 static bool _main_kb_is_pressed[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS];
 bool (*main_kb_is_pressed)[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS] = &_main_kb_is_pressed;
 
@@ -50,6 +51,17 @@ bool    main_arg_was_pressed;
 int main(void) {
  kb_init();  // does controller initialization too
 
+ // set internal pull-up off for both pins
+ PORTD &= ~(1<<4);
+ PORTD &= ~(1<<5);
+ PORTD &= ~(1<<6);
+
+ // set the pins as output
+ // (because we cleared the applicable PORT bits above, the pins will now be driving low)
+ DDRD |= (1<<4);
+ DDRD |= (1<<5);
+ DDRD |= (1<<6);
+
  kb_led_state_power_on();
 
  usb_init();
@@ -63,6 +75,7 @@ int main(void) {
  bool (*temp)[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS] = main_kb_was_pressed;
  main_kb_was_pressed = main_kb_is_pressed;
  main_kb_is_pressed = temp;
+ _kb_led_4_off(); // buzzer off
 
  kb_update_matrix(*main_kb_is_pressed);
 
@@ -82,15 +95,23 @@ int main(void) {
  #define is_pressed   main_arg_is_pressed
  #define was_pressed  main_arg_was_pressed
  for (row=0; row<KB_ROWS; row++) {
+ if (layers_head != 0)
+ _kb_led_6_on(); // layer led on
+ else
+ _kb_led_6_off(); // layer led off
+
  for (col=0; col<KB_COLUMNS; col++) {
  is_pressed = (*main_kb_is_pressed)[row][col];
  was_pressed = (*main_kb_was_pressed)[row][col];
 
  if (is_pressed != was_pressed) {
  if (is_pressed) {
+         _kb_led_4_on(); // buzzer on
+         _kb_led_5_on(); // key led on
  layer = main_layers_peek(0);
  main_layers_pressed[row][col] = layer;
  } else {
+ _kb_led_5_off(); // key led off
  layer = main_layers_pressed[row][col];
  }
 
@@ -175,7 +197,6 @@ struct layers {
 // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 struct layers layers[MAX_ACTIVE_LAYERS];
-uint8_t       layers_head = 0;
 uint8_t       layers_ids_in_use[MAX_ACTIVE_LAYERS] = {true};
 
 /*
diff -upr ../src/makefile-options src/makefile-options
--- ../src/makefile-options 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ src/makefile-options 2013-04-03 16:54:14.000000000 -0700
@@ -9,7 +9,7 @@
 
 TARGET   := firmware  # the name we want for our program binary
 KEYBOARD := ergodox   # keyboard model; see "src/keyboard" for what's available
-LAYOUT   := default-kinesis-mod  # keyboard layout
+LAYOUT   := default--layout  # keyboard layout
  # see "src/keyboard/*/layout" for what's
  # available
 

And here are the changes just for the layer indicator by itself, which doesn't need any hardware mod. Just download the source from massdrop's layer configurator, and make the changes by hand or apply the patch with: patch -p0 < filename.patch

Code: [Select]
--- ../src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0--led.h 2013-04-05 21:52:11.000000000 -0700
@@ -30,17 +30,21 @@
  #define _kb_led_3_set(n)         (OCR1C = (uint8_t)(n))
  #define _kb_led_3_set_percent(n) (OCR1C = (uint8_t)((n) * 0xFF))
 
+ #define _kb_led_6_on()           (PORTD |=  (1<<6))
+ #define _kb_led_6_off()          (PORTD &= ~(1<<6))
 
  #define _kb_led_all_on() do { \
  _kb_led_1_on(); \
  _kb_led_2_on(); \
  _kb_led_3_on(); \
+ _kb_led_6_on(); \
  } while(0)
 
  #define _kb_led_all_off() do { \
  _kb_led_1_off(); \
  _kb_led_2_off(); \
  _kb_led_3_off(); \
+ _kb_led_6_off(); \
  } while(0)
 
  #define _kb_led_all_set(n) do { \
--- ../src/main.c 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ main.c 2013-04-05 21:54:38.000000000 -0700
@@ -24,6 +24,7 @@
 
 // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
+uint8_t       layers_head = 0;
 static bool _main_kb_is_pressed[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS];
 bool (*main_kb_is_pressed)[KB_ROWS][KB_COLUMNS] = &_main_kb_is_pressed;
 
@@ -50,6 +51,9 @@ bool    main_arg_was_pressed;
 int main(void) {
  kb_init();  // does controller initialization too
 
+ PORTD &= ~(1<<6);
+ DDRD |= (1<<6);
+
  kb_led_state_power_on();
 
  usb_init();
@@ -82,6 +95,11 @@ int main(void) {
  #define is_pressed   main_arg_is_pressed
  #define was_pressed  main_arg_was_pressed
  for (row=0; row<KB_ROWS; row++) {
+ if (layers_head != 0)
+ _kb_led_6_on(); // layer led on
+ else
+ _kb_led_6_off(); // layer led off
+
  for (col=0; col<KB_COLUMNS; col++) {
  is_pressed = (*main_kb_is_pressed)[row][col];
  was_pressed = (*main_kb_was_pressed)[row][col];
@@ -175,7 +197,6 @@ struct layers {
 // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 struct layers layers[MAX_ACTIVE_LAYERS];
-uint8_t       layers_head = 0;
 uint8_t       layers_ids_in_use[MAX_ACTIVE_LAYERS] = {true};
 
 /*
--- ../src/makefile-options 2013-04-01 15:06:12.000000000 -0700
+++ makefile-options 2013-04-03 16:54:14.000000000 -0700
@@ -9,7 +9,7 @@
 
 TARGET   := firmware  # the name we want for our program binary
 KEYBOARD := ergodox   # keyboard model; see "src/keyboard" for what's available
-LAYOUT   := default-kinesis-mod  # keyboard layout
+LAYOUT   := default--layout  # keyboard layout
  # see "src/keyboard/*/layout" for what's
  # available
 

If you try it let me know how it worked for you!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 06 April 2013, 00:29:35
I fixed my links, thanks. If all I have to do is make a mirrored layout, that would be perfect! I just can't screw up on these things, since they aren't actually mine. Heh.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 06 April 2013, 03:18:23
Inverting the design has been discussed before. Originally I planned to make it possible, but in the end I screwed it up slightly. You would probably need to cut some trace going to the USB connector if I remember correctly at the moment. You'd definitely need to bend the IO-expander chips over backwards. And place the Teensy upside down, but that is easy =)

All in all I would recommend you put it together the "standard" way. Mirrored should be seen as a special solution for people not minding the extra programming quirks...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 06 April 2013, 09:46:46
Inverting the design has been discussed before. Originally I planned to make it possible, but in the end I screwed it up slightly. You would probably need to cut some trace going to the USB connector if I remember correctly at the moment. You'd definitely need to bend the IO-expander chips over backwards. And place the Teensy upside down, but that is easy =)

All in all I would recommend you put it together the "standard" way. Mirrored should be seen as a special solution for people not minding the extra programming quirks...

I definitely want to make mine into a "one-hand only" keyboard. It will be useful for typing with one hand, and mousing with the other. I suppose I can teach myself to mouse with my left hand and type with only my right, but I would prefer to do it the other way around.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 06 April 2013, 09:47:00
Why would you need to cut a trace? It seems easy enough to just have the Teensy and I/O expander on the bottom as the Teensy will be connected to the USB plug via the mini USB to bare wire.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 06 April 2013, 10:07:42
I believe one of the pads on the USB connector is wired to the ground plane. If I hadn't done that the external connector would be completely freely wired to the internal USB on the Teensy. Then you could have chosen to mount it whatever way you want. Putting the USB connector on the bottom still works of course. But that doesn't fit the case I suspect. All components being either 2 lead or through hole are mirrorable, sort of. The Teensy can be put upside down instead of on the back (think the same orientation but translated to the top instead of bottom). The IO expander should be possible to bend backwards as well. Grab all leads with a pair of pliers and turn them all over at once...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 06 April 2013, 10:30:44
I believe one of the pads on the USB connector is wired to the ground plane. If I hadn't done that the external connector would be completely freely wired to the internal USB on the Teensy. Then you could have chosen to mount it whatever way you want.

bpihany, how hard would it be to do a new revision of the PCB with this change? An extra jumper could be used to ground the pin.
Also, there is no silkscreen to indicate where the capacitor goes :-)
More importantly, some of us have concluded that the thumb clusters are too far away. If we make the innermost column key a 1x key, the thumbcluster could move at least 1cm closer to the hands, it's the 2nd solution from the below photo. If we get the corresponding case design changed, we'll have an improved ergodox, possibly in time for the new Massdrop GB, and the keyboard will be more compact too!

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=17869;image)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SmallFry on Sat, 06 April 2013, 11:19:36
I believe one of the pads on the USB connector is wired to the ground plane. If I hadn't done that the external connector would be completely freely wired to the internal USB on the Teensy. Then you could have chosen to mount it whatever way you want. Putting the USB connector on the bottom still works of course. But that doesn't fit the case I suspect. All components being either 2 lead or through hole are mirrorable, sort of. The Teensy can be put upside down instead of on the back (think the same orientation but translated to the top instead of bottom). The IO expander should be possible to bend backwards as well. Grab all leads with a pair of pliers and turn them all over at once...
I see that ground plane connection, not a problem to take an XActo knife to that. Now to get my prototype (my personal eDox, before i go fudging up OrangeJewce's) to work when mirrored. I have the Teensy soldered in and I was connecting directly to it. I also put on a diode and firmware onto the Teensy... No dice.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2c6qMcdXMZ4/UWBGIied8vI/AAAAAAAAAvc/SnfXpXh1oig/s800/DSCF2125.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jagriff on Sat, 06 April 2013, 11:54:36
How big of a problem is the distance between the thumb cluster? Could someone make a video/picture of the ErgoDox with their hands present for reference?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Sat, 06 April 2013, 12:51:46
How big of a problem is the distance between the thumb cluster? Could someone make a video/picture of the ErgoDox with their hands present for reference?

You can test your hand fit on a standard QWERTY staggered-row keyboard:
Put your right hand on the home row and see where your thumb naturally falls with respect to the G and H keys.
 If your thumb falls under the G key, your thumb would be on the thumb cluster's right key.
 If your thumb falls under the H key, your thumb would fall short of the thumb cluster.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 06 April 2013, 15:26:48
How big of a problem is the distance between the thumb cluster? Could someone make a video/picture of the ErgoDox with their hands present for reference?

You can check out this post (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg765195#msg765195) (from a while back) too if you like.

What would people think about restaggering the rows, so that the hands move in one key each (putting the first fingers on the g and h keys, and the thumbs on the backspace and enter keys)?  This would place the thumbs more in the center of the cluster, allow the hands to be closer together if one wished, and put more keys on the pinky side (at the expense of having more keys on the first-finger side).

Not that I'd advocate actually doing that... lol :) .  I doubt moving keys from the first fingers to the pinkies would be popular.  And reprototyping, etc. wouldn't be my favorite thing, so I wouldn't ask anyone else to do it for such a small change.  I'm just curious what people think.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 06 April 2013, 16:35:19
Ok so I have the QWERTY-KINESIS layout put on my teensy, yet I have no idea where I should be looking to see what the actual layout is. I have most of it figured out, but some keys I have no idea what they are supposed to do. Making my troubleshooting with soldering tricky.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bearcat on Sat, 06 April 2013, 16:47:53
thanks for the link ic07!

out of curiosity, why would one want to put their hands closer together if they're already using a split keyboard? 

I am currently reprototyping a "minimal" version with a lot less keys, but it's mostly in the "just scratching my own itch" stage.  If there's interest i'll see about making a larger run?  It's also not too tough to mill out one-offs, if you have a design in mind.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 06 April 2013, 17:21:09
Ok so I have the QWERTY-KINESIS layout put on my teensy, yet I have no idea where I should be looking to see what the actual layout is. I have most of it figured out, but some keys I have no idea what they are supposed to do. Making my troubleshooting with soldering tricky.

It sounds like you got the hex file from dropbox?  If so, the zip file it came in should also contain a "firmware--layout.html" file.  Open that up, and it will show you the layout :)

out of curiosity, why would one want to put their hands closer together if they're already using a split keyboard? 

I am currently reprototyping a "minimal" version with a lot less keys, but it's mostly in the "just scratching my own itch" stage.  If there's interest i'll see about making a larger run?  It's also not too tough to mill out one-offs, if you have a design in mind.

Well... on a normal keyboard the hands are quite close together, closer than is comfortably possible with an ErgoDox.  All other things being equal, I think I prefer the closeness, though it doesn't really bug me either way.

I'll be curious to see your design, when you're finished :) .  I think I'm content with what I've learned about hardware so far, so I think I'm done with that for now myself - I doubt I'll  step away from the current ErgoDox hardware design unless it's for something fundamentally different.  I do have a few more things to add to the firmware though, before I'm done (coming in the rewrite! probably during the summer now, since spring break is almost over).  And continued innovation on the hardware side is always good too :) .
Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 06 April 2013, 17:28:26
Thank you ic07!! That'll save me!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Jagriff on Sat, 06 April 2013, 18:27:12
How big of a problem is the distance between the thumb cluster? Could someone make a video/picture of the ErgoDox with their hands present for reference?

You can check out this post (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg765195#msg765195) (from a while back) too if you like.

Thank you! That's just what I was looking to see. It looks like there are no problems as it is, but that it could be improved if shifted. In the perfect scenario, I would imagine that the thumb resting position would be in the middle of the cluster, not on the edge.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sat, 06 April 2013, 22:35:58
hey out of curiosity can the teensy be magnetted to load a new hex file? Or do you have to remove the top plate to access the onboard reset button every time?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sat, 06 April 2013, 22:56:01
hey out of curiosity can the teensy be magnetted to load a new hex file? Or do you have to remove the top plate to access the onboard reset button every time?

you can load a new hex file by accessing layer 2 where there's a teensy button programmed into the top left corner. It replaces the need to access the physical teensy button.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sat, 06 April 2013, 23:11:07
ah, touche. So it goes

Look about right?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sat, 06 April 2013, 23:17:58
that's right. you'd probably have to press the auto button in the teensy application from my experience too, but as long as you get the "programming > ok reboot" prompt, you're fine.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: islisis on Sun, 07 April 2013, 06:55:05
In the perfect scenario, I would imagine that the thumb resting position would be in the middle of the cluster, not on the edge.
That's an interesting point, even on the kinesis the thumb home position is on the inner-edge thumb key (which are of course BS/space). Seeing the thumb has more inside reach, it would be an interesting to have a another normal size key beside them, making a four column thumbwell :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 07 April 2013, 12:20:56
Inverting the design has been discussed before. Originally I planned to make it possible, but in the end I screwed it up slightly. You would probably need to cut some trace going to the USB connector if I remember correctly at the moment. You'd definitely need to bend the IO-expander chips over backwards. And place the Teensy upside down, but that is easy =)

All in all I would recommend you put it together the "standard" way. Mirrored should be seen as a special solution for people not minding the extra programming quirks...

I definitely want to make mine into a "one-hand only" keyboard. It will be useful for typing with one hand, and mousing with the other. I suppose I can teach myself to mouse with my left hand and type with only my right, but I would prefer to do it the other way around.

One person posted on GH with his one-handed software.  you type with the same left hand or same right hand on one half of the keyboard.  His software guesses what you are really typing.  For example, to type "this" with only your left hand, you would type "tges"; or to type "this" with only your right hand, you would type "uhil". 

He posted quite a while ago.  Don't have the link handy.  Software like this could possible built into the firmware, but the dictionary would be too large to store in the teensy.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 07 April 2013, 13:17:14
Hey litster, any comment on moving the thumb clusters closer to the hands? See a few posts up, where I posted an doctored image of yours :-)

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Sun, 07 April 2013, 18:45:37
I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.
Some kind of small tutorial would be really nice for us who have not worked with metal that much before.  :)

I took some pictures and outlined the steps I used on my case but for some reason (I suspect my incompetence), I was unable to post it. If someone would PM me to help me upload it, some might find it helpful.

On another note, I haven't heard many opinions about the cases, aluminum or acrylic.  Do the acrylic cases go together as hoped? Any alignment issues? My aluminum layers that have a break in the circumference are slightly sprung out of alignment. Not a major problem but need to be compressed a bit for the screws to align. The clearances are also a bit tight and will require some filing for  the pcb to fit properly.

How is everyone dealing with the nuts on the underside. Thick pads? I was thinking about using helicoils on the bottom layers to allow for a flush bottom. Any advice?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bisl on Sun, 07 April 2013, 18:51:37
acrylics are PERFECT.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Tafryn on Sun, 07 April 2013, 19:07:26
How is everyone dealing with the nuts on the underside. Thick pads? I was thinking about using helicoils on the bottom layers to allow for a flush bottom. Any advice?

I picked up a bunch of these, http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202210068?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=screw+covers&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202210068. They work perfectly when you cut them to size. As an added bonus, if you only shorten the back three you can create the slight decline that's supposedly better ergonomically. I think someone else tried cutting pieces of yoga mat to size with some success. That would work better if you want a little more desk contact than seven tiny feet can provide.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 07 April 2013, 19:57:43
Hey litster, any comment on moving the thumb clusters closer to the hands? See a few posts up, where I posted an doctored image of yours :-)

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527

Saw your post.  Nothing I can do.  The case is built based on the PCB design. 
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 07 April 2013, 20:13:15
Hey litster, any comment on moving the thumb clusters closer to the hands? See a few posts up, where I posted an doctored image of yours :-)

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527

Saw your post.  Nothing I can do.  The case is built based on the PCB design. 

Of course, but if bpiphany changes the PCB design, will you be able to change the case design accordingly?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: litster on Sun, 07 April 2013, 21:58:15
Of course, but if bpiphany changes the PCB design, will you be able to change the case design accordingly?

Sure.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sun, 07 April 2013, 22:57:45
I began some refining on one of the cases and what a difference. I would recommend everyone countersink the top layer and use flathead screws.
 It was easy to do with a simple countersink and looks and feels much better.
Some kind of small tutorial would be really nice for us who have not worked with metal that much before.  :)

I took some pictures and outlined the steps I used on my case but for some reason (I suspect my incompetence), I was unable to post it. If someone would PM me to help me upload it, some might find it helpful.

On another note, I haven't heard many opinions about the cases, aluminum or acrylic.  Do the acrylic cases go together as hoped? Any alignment issues? My aluminum layers that have a break in the circumference are slightly sprung out of alignment. Not a major problem but need to be compressed a bit for the screws to align. The clearances are also a bit tight and will require some filing for  the pcb to fit properly.

How is everyone dealing with the nuts on the underside. Thick pads? I was thinking about using helicoils on the bottom layers to allow for a flush bottom. Any advice?

bought a pack of 3m bumpons and some generic door thingies to create a slight tilt (pic below). the nuts gave my desk a few good deep scratches before I realised how sharp those things were. good thing is was just some random board I was using for a table.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8103/8630680182_b01118de20_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/8630680182/)


Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: islisis on Mon, 08 April 2013, 00:18:08
If there is a PCB redesign, wouldn't shifting the thumbwell downwards and adding an extra 1x key on the inside allow users to shift with thumbs easily? Seems to be a popular request.
Title: Re: [Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mjtorn on Mon, 08 April 2013, 00:51:19
Now available via Massdrop!
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox
(You will need to make an account with them)

Missed the order, a bunch of crap was going down around January :(

308 people have requested for new keyboards, any plans for a new release?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Mon, 08 April 2013, 01:09:32
Now available via Massdrop!
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox
(You will need to make an account with them)



Missed the order, a bunch of crap was going down around January :(

308 people have requested for new keyboards, any plans for a new release?
Round 2 is up: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OrangeJewce on Mon, 08 April 2013, 01:09:50
Now available via Massdrop!
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox
(You will need to make an account with them)

Missed the order, a bunch of crap was going down around January :(

308 people have requested for new keyboards, any plans for a new release?

That was a link to the first round.

Here's round 2!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2

Cheers,
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 08 April 2013, 01:23:40
If there is a PCB redesign, wouldn't shifting the thumbwell downwards and adding an extra 1x key on the inside allow users to shift with thumbs easily? Seems to be a popular request.

If you add extra keys then you'll need firmware changes, and more complex pcb changes.
What we have been discussing is shifting the thumbclusters closer to the hands so you can access them more easily.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mjtorn on Mon, 08 April 2013, 02:11:17

Here's round 2!

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2


Thanks a million! Ordered a classic with blues and blanks, looking forward to getting it :)

What, only 8 (probably 7 after me) to release the drop - let's spread the word like crazy!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: islisis on Mon, 08 April 2013, 09:37:01
Ah sorry sordna, I shouldn't have said request - just from observations in other ergonomic discussion threads questions about using thumbs for shift comes up quite often. Time will show if it is feasible or not.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ksm123 on Mon, 08 April 2013, 10:18:42
Did any one try to integrate ErgoDox with chair's arm rests?
What route did you take?
What is max length of split halves connector cable? or maybe you've used a wireless controller?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ElectronicFur on Mon, 08 April 2013, 10:28:51
How much further are the thumb clusters on the Ergodox compared to the Kinesis?

I ask because on the Kinesis already I find it a stretch to reach the furthest keys (Alt, home, end, up, down).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 08 April 2013, 10:36:37
Ah sorry sordna, I shouldn't have said request - just from observations in other ergonomic discussion threads questions about using thumbs for shift comes up quite often. Time will show if it is feasible or not.

No worries. BTW I have been using extra thumb keys (and palm keys) for shift on my modded Kinesis Advantage. (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0) but not sure yet if the ergodox needs more. I might add palm keys to it but that's not something I expect the official version to have

(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26579.0;attach=3388;image)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 08 April 2013, 14:30:30
joined the party late, was on a business trip

got home yesterday night and spent all last night building it

after finishing i put the firmware on and everything worked! for once no fixing required. successful day is successful!

pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/sets/72157633198800512/with/8631586183/

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8390/8631587901_54a76d85ce_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631587901/)

i wanted an incline, and i created  one with sugru, which has spent 12 hours curing, seems hard  enough.
Larken's idea is sooooo much better  than mine.... but eh.  if it works it works
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8536/8632693234_c603b2df33_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8632693234/)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8265/8631586183_0afe0aa3b4_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631586183/)

typing  on it now makes me feel so happy,  but  there is a lot of training to do with it

edit: oh btw i ordered 2 ergodox and got one with aluminium case and the other with acrylic, for the fun of it i decided to mix and match the case layers :)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8239/8631586855_713d20e4e6.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631586855/)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Mon, 08 April 2013, 15:57:51
joined the party late, was on a business trip

got home yesterday night and spent all last night building it

after finishing i put the firmware on and everything worked! for once no fixing required. successful day is successful!

pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/sets/72157633198800512/with/8631586183/

i wanted an incline, and i created  one with sugru, which has spent 12 hours curing, seems hard  enough.
Larken's idea is sooooo much better  than mine.... but eh.  if it works it works

typing  on it now makes me feel so happy,  but  there is a lot of training to do with it

edit: oh btw i ordered 2 ergodox and got one with aluminium case and the other with acrylic, for the fun of it i decided to mix and match the case layers :)


Man, that mixed layers thing looks sick! I just got mine today, I am going to put it together tomorrow (not enough time tonight!)
Btw, what wrist rests are you using? Those go really well with the ergodox!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: judascleric on Mon, 08 April 2013, 16:01:29
I just put in a pull request for adding 3-state sticky key layer function support that functions like sticky keys for modifiers (shift, ctrl, alt, command) in Windows or OS X where you can key in chords by pressing modifiers then alpha-numeric keys sequentially rather than simultaneously. When only keying a single key on a layer, you don't have to pop the layer afterwards, the pop is automatic. If you press the layer sticky key twice, it locks the layer and pressing it a third time to unlocks it.

In my current layout (colemak-jc-mod.c), I have sticky layer keys on the inner most keys on the bottom row, used as thumb switches. These keys toggle a symbol layer which is indispensable for programming. I also have my lower, inner layer keys as sticky layer keys for a numpad/function key layer, though I find I'm more often using the left-hand middle thumb key to do a standard push/pop on this layer for multi-digit numbers and repeated function keys (F6, F7, F8 for debugging).

As with normal layers, you can use kbfun_layer_pop_all() to go back to layer 0 if you get lost.

Here's my fork if anyone is interested:
https://github.com/judascleric/ergodox-firmware (https://github.com/judascleric/ergodox-firmware)
Use "make LAYOUT=colemak-jc-mod" if you want to build with my layout, which is almost this layout https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=EAZJPJ&hash=f8c739b3dbfb1d01500db57fbe1bcefb (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=EAZJPJ&hash=f8c739b3dbfb1d01500db57fbe1bcefb) (minus sticky toggles and manual assignment of kbfun_shift_press_release() to most of the symbol layer).
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Mon, 08 April 2013, 16:52:22
joined the party late, was on a business trip

got home yesterday night and spent all last night building it

after finishing i put the firmware on and everything worked! for once no fixing required. successful day is successful!

pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/sets/72157633198800512/with/8631586183/

i wanted an incline, and i created  one with sugru, which has spent 12 hours curing, seems hard  enough.
Larken's idea is sooooo much better  than mine.... but eh.  if it works it works

typing  on it now makes me feel so happy,  but  there is a lot of training to do with it

edit: oh btw i ordered 2 ergodox and got one with aluminium case and the other with acrylic, for the fun of it i decided to mix and match the case layers :)


Man, that mixed layers thing looks sick! I just got mine today, I am going to put it together tomorrow (not enough time tonight!)
Btw, what wrist rests are you using? Those go really well with the ergodox!

these: http://www.rakuten.com/prod/handstands-deluxe-laptop-travel-wrist-rest/247713693.html

i found them in a office supply store here, officemax. im sure other places must have them. they work perfect
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Mon, 08 April 2013, 19:20:15
Wow! Glod, that sandwiched case looks so awesome. Makes me really glad that I picked up both cases cause I was being indecisive  :-\
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 08 April 2013, 19:37:10
PCBs partially built.  Still cleaning up the aluminum cases.  Man, these are rough.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Mon, 08 April 2013, 20:24:03
I marvel at how quickly many of you got your ergodoxes together and running. I had to give it a rest to get my tax returns in but next week I hope to finish mine.
It seems that the aluminum cases are requiring more effort than the acrylic. I would encourage aluminum owners to spend the time and round the edges and
wet sand the exposed surfaces. One sheet of 220, 320, and 400 grit wet and dry sandpaper per side should do it. Sand in the same direction. The finished surface
looks and feels very elegant, you won't be disappointed.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 08 April 2013, 20:50:33
To be honest, the easy part is the final finishing. The hard part is making all the layers the same size. I found that there is quite a bit of variance in the size and squareness of each layer. The laser cutting left things pretty rough. I guess if you don't care how the layers look when they are sandwiched together you can skip trying to make them all the same size and just polish them up.
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Mon, 08 April 2013, 21:02:20
To be honest, the easy part is the final finishing. The hard part is making all the layers the same size. I found that there is quite a bit of variance in the size and squareness of each layer. The laser cutting left things pretty rough. I guess if you don't care how the layers look when they are sandwiched together you can skip trying to make them all the same size and just polish them up.

I got an aluminum and honestly, it is a freaking joke. Anyone that manufactures something like this should be embarrassed.

The edges are VERY rough
There are burrs everywhere
The switch cutouts are NOT square and perpindicular
I had to almost destroy my pcb from grinding the edges to get them to fit in the plate below it.
Screws sticking out the top and bottom(I knew this when I ordered)

and a few more major issues.

They stated no aluminum in GB 2 because the price would be almost double. Well with that phylosophy it is obvious they cut MANY corners to save cost on the aluminum cases in GB 1.

I have posted MANY times defending high cost because of machining chatges and manual labor costs but this is simply awful.

John
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Mon, 08 April 2013, 21:37:43
To be honest, the easy part is the final finishing. The hard part is making all the layers the same size. I found that there is quite a bit of variance in the size and squareness of each layer. The laser cutting left things pretty rough. I guess if you don't care how the layers look when they are sandwiched together you can skip trying to make them all the same size and just polish them up.

I got an aluminum and honestly, it is a freaking joke. Anyone that manufactures something like this should be embarrassed.

The edges are VERY rough
There are burrs everywhere
The switch cutouts are NOT square and perpindicular
I had to almost destroy my pcb from grinding the edges to get them to fit in the plate below it.
Screws sticking out the top and bottom(I knew this when I ordered)

and a few more major issues.

They stated no aluminum in GB 2 because the price would be almost double. Well with that phylosophy it is obvious they cut MANY corners to save cost on the aluminum cases in GB 1.

I have posted MANY times defending high cost because of machining chatges and manual labor costs but this is simply awful.

John

its the main reason why I switched from ordering the aluminium case to acrylic. I saw the protoype and was sorely disappointed. kurplop's results are awesome but it seems pretty hard to attain that level of consistency. In the end I decided that getting acrylic to spray paint over would be a much easier thing to do, as compared to the preparation work for anodising (not to mention cheaper, better looking and probably easier to work with in terms of sanding)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 08 April 2013, 21:44:43
They are just laser cut and obviously done at a high rate of speed.  MD is wise to ditch it.  One of the layers had a nasty bend in it, but luckily I was able to fix it without fatiguing the aluminum too much.  In the end I think it will look nice, but it's not worth all the hassle.

Too bad they don't offer other colors besides clear.  Black would be a nice choice.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Mon, 08 April 2013, 21:51:09
Has any done an 80-key configuration? I guess you'd need to omit or modify the switch plate to do that... but this way you could add shifts to the thumb area without sacrificing other keys:

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?keys=80&referer=BY6MGD&hash=9c04972690a3ecfe92bdbc82534668be
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Mon, 08 April 2013, 22:00:51
They are just laser cut and obviously done at a high rate of speed.  MD is wise to ditch it.  One of the layers had a nasty bend in it, but luckily I was able to fix it without fatiguing the aluminum too much.  In the end I think it will look nice, but it's not worth all the hassle.

Too bad they don't offer other colors besides clear.  Black would be a nice choice.

a pretty easy paint job would get you the colors you want with acrylic. but yea, considering this was a litster design, it would be nice to have the colors he made with his old cases (black sandwiching red, and white sandwiching blue). those cases looked great. I'm still trying to get the right paints, but the selection available in my country is woefully inadequate.

@Glod

any idea how much heavy is the aluminium casing compared to the acrylic one?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Dreadwyrm on Tue, 09 April 2013, 05:49:34
The DCS PBT keycap group buy is out on Massrop!  \o/

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1 (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OPTiK on Tue, 09 April 2013, 09:21:14
I'm currently working on making my aluminum case more presentable. Just got done putting most of the pieces through a tumbler (except top layer) and they are so smooth now! Got rid of all the burs too. I'm still debating going mirrored finish or anodized though. I may just do the mirror finish first and if I don't like it then I'll anodize it. I have to say the aluminum does require a lot of work, hopefully its worth it in the end!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 09 April 2013, 10:05:00
Yes, I would love to have seen the litster black/red combo.  It would have matched my Phantom nicely.  :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 09 April 2013, 11:45:58
man the way keys are (non staggered?) is really throwing me off, having a hard time with this thing!

@Glod

any idea how much heavy is the aluminium casing compared to the acrylic one?

its heavier, but not as much as a thought, i dont have a scale so i cant measure
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bearcat on Tue, 09 April 2013, 11:47:35
so get a set cut in red and black!  www.ponoko.com (http://www.ponoko.com) does laser cutting as a service.  The plans are right there on the ergodox site.  Take the plans from the ergodox site, lay them out on the ponoko templates, send them off to get cut, and bam boom red & black.

I just got a set of keytrays in from them yesterday.  turned out well, except the potatophone picture ;)

(http://i.imgur.com/E8lGi9Eh.jpg) (http://imgur.com/a/9zYE1/all)

I don't really know if it could be made any easier to get a case made exactly the colors you want.  click buttons -> receive bacon.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 09 April 2013, 11:49:04
your project looking good

would be nice to have more case options for ergodox
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: cancelx on Tue, 09 April 2013, 12:13:24
I am looking for someone in the US who can proxy to Poland for me, because I got my ErgoDox from separate groupbuys and I have no electronics. I need everything from the hardware list on ergodox.org webpage, except PCB, switches and cables. Anyone willing to help?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Tue, 09 April 2013, 16:29:43
On the surface mounted diodes thing. Its not that bad to use the through-hole diodes is it? I am
not really that comfortable doing surface mounted soldering...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Tue, 09 April 2013, 16:43:31
You need to cut the legs flush and then solder.  You just don't want the leads poking up into the plate.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Tue, 09 April 2013, 16:52:05
So this is only a problem with layer 3 of the case?
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Tue, 09 April 2013, 17:21:56
On the surface mounted diodes thing. Its not that bad to use the through-hole diodes is it? I am
not really that comfortable doing surface mounted soldering...

It was my first time and extremely easy.

Put a small spot on one pad.
Place the diode with tweezers while melting the dot of solder.
Solder the other end

Give it a go. You may be surprised. I used .020 solder and an iron with a .015 tip.

You can alsk put the diodes in the switched in you want.

Good luck,
John
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ElectronicFur on Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:14:20
How much further are the thumb clusters on the Ergodox compared to the Kinesis?

I ask because on the Kinesis already I find it a stretch to reach the furthest keys (Alt, home, end, up, down).

Would appreciate if someone with a Kinesis and Ergodox could do a comparison for me. I'm poised to join the massdrop but worried if this will be an issue for me.

Cheers,
EF
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Tue, 09 April 2013, 18:32:09
On the surface mounted diodes thing. Its not that bad to use the through-hole diodes is it? I am
not really that comfortable doing surface mounted soldering...

It was my first time and extremely easy.

Put a small spot on one pad.
Place the diode with tweezers while melting the dot of solder.
Solder the other end

Give it a go. You may be surprised. I used .020 solder and an iron with a .015 tip.

You can alsk put the diodes in the switched in you want.

Good luck,
John

Yea, turns out I actually had some flux lying around that I could put on before doing that first spot.
 Easy peasy, thanks for the encouragement! I also recommend doing this, much easier than it sounds
and so much easier to undo than a through-hole solder if you change your mind.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 09 April 2013, 20:20:13
So this is only a problem with layer 3 of the case?

layer 2 has problems fitting the pcb in the aluminium case if that is what you are refering to
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Tue, 09 April 2013, 20:56:04
So this is only a problem with layer 3 of the case?

layer 2 has problems fitting the pcb in the aluminium case if that is what you are refering to
MAJOR problems. I had to dremel the hell outta my PCBs to get them to fit.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Tue, 09 April 2013, 21:01:55
what would happen if I dremeled the aluminium layer instead of the pcb? i still have to build my second ergodox with the aluminium center layers, need switches though so i have time to figure this out. 1 ergodox with reds is good enough :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: kurplop on Tue, 09 April 2013, 21:09:28
How do you know how much can be trimmed from the perimeter of the PCBs before hitting some vital part?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 09 April 2013, 21:13:01
... In the end I decided that getting acrylic to spray paint over would be a much easier thing to do, as compared to the preparation work for anodising (not to mention cheaper, better looking and probably easier to work with in terms of sanding)
It occurs to me that painting only the underside of the top layer plate would give you a preferred color and retain the glossy-smooth acrylic surface without any worries about paint flaking off in the long run. For that matter, you could use the top layer plate as a template to cut a sheet of silvered mylar or any other sort of patterned paper/plastic sheet, which you could sandwich under the top layer plate.

I gather the problem with the aluminum plates was that they can't be laser cut, and the cheapest alternative was water-jet cutting, which is just inherently a low-tolerance method that results in inconsistent and imprecise cuts.

A while ago, I also suggested to MD that making a replacement top plate from bamboo-wood paneling would be affordable and make for a pretty classy look and feel, and could prolly be mass-produced using the same methods as the acrylic plates.
Title: Re: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: jcrouse on Tue, 09 April 2013, 21:17:11
How do you know how much can be trimmed from the perimeter of the PCBs before hitting some vital part?
I had so much intetference in some areas I did have to remove material from both the pcb and case. I just don't undetstand ... ya have the dimensions of the pcb, just add 1/16" clearance all around inside the case.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 09 April 2013, 23:18:13
Here is how I tent my ergodox for the time being. You can see the buzzer, as well as builtin teensy orange LED, indicating that I'm in a layer other than the default.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 10 April 2013, 00:09:23
Here is how I tent my ergodox for the time being. You can see the buzzer, as well as builtin teensy orange LED, indicating that I'm in a layer other than the default.

damn i over looked your buzzer thing in the past, that may actually be a cool thing to do, linear switches with a click..

lol id knock that **** down!

im thinking of making a large incline mod like that myself but i am waiting until i learn the layout because i wont be able to see the keys as well with a large incline
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 10 April 2013, 00:43:08

Would appreciate if someone with a Kinesis and Ergodox could do a comparison for me. I'm poised to join the massdrop but worried if this will be an issue for me.

Thumb keys are a bit harder to reach on the ergodox, but it's quite good overall. I like having both these keyboards. Some other comparison points here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41937.msg842927#msg842927
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ElectronicFur on Wed, 10 April 2013, 07:34:55
Thumb keys are a bit harder to reach on the ergodox, but it's quite good overall. I like having both these keyboards. Some other comparison points here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41937.msg842927#msg842927


How much further is the reach in cm? Its hard to see from the photos. I have small hands, which is why I'm hesitating.

Thanks,
EF
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 10 April 2013, 09:39:25
Hmm, they distance is the same, but due to the Kinesis bowls, the way the hand sits makes it easier to reach the thumb keys.
So the ergodox feels as if the thumb keys are 0.5cm further away even though they are not! So it would be an improvement to bring them closer, but it's not something that should deter anyone interested in the Ergodox from getting one.
Anyway, if you have small hands, you will need to do some hand movement on either keyboard.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Wed, 10 April 2013, 18:48:03
What is up with step 4.1 in the Massdrop assembly instructions (adding the capacitor). Is it like *highly* recomended or just optional. And it says
that the two rectangular pads should be bridged but that is not shown on the picture. Are there some other pads that should be bridged instead?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 10 April 2013, 20:58:07
Nope, I told them about it after they took pictures, so they updated the text only. You should bridge those 2 pads, otherwise the capacitor isn't really connected to anything. I too was surprised they list it as optional, it's not hard to solder the capacitor and they include it, so ...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Wed, 10 April 2013, 21:09:20
oh **** just realized i never bridged those pads lol, i haven't noticed anything wrong though; ergodox going strong. i guess ill get around to fixing it somehow when i switch out the top and bottom layers and lube and sticker my switches
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Wed, 10 April 2013, 21:37:31
I bridged mine after I assembled it, since I followed the instructions and only later remember a point about bridging the pads, which I had seen on deskthority, and confirmed with ic07. I was able to fit my iron without burning the acrylic case or IO expander. I transferred solder on the tip, but put some flux on the pads first with a toothpick, to make sure the solder flows in a short time.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 10 April 2013, 23:56:14
Here is how I tent my ergodox for the time being. You can see the buzzer, as well as builtin teensy orange LED, indicating that I'm in a layer other than the default.

I'm kinda liking how the full hand looks. Almost tempted to switch over from classic.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: OPTiK on Thu, 11 April 2013, 09:15:41
What are the options for palm rests at this point?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 11 April 2013, 13:01:45
What are the options for palm rests at this point?

Do you mean for those who didnt get the full hand?

well i use these, they are in my pictures of an earlier post
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/handstands-deluxe-laptop-travel-wrist-rest/247713693.html
if you are in the states they are at officemax

the only problem with these are that they are a bit low so they may not be very ergonomic, in fact i know they are not ergonomic

i'm looking at other solutions

i noticed the ergo beads rests work well too but i only have one hand so i need to buy another. they are a bit expensive

i didn't get the full hand kit because i feared it would cut into my wrists

--

btw guys with finished ergodox, i created another thread to discuss experiences using the ergodox, basically the final product instead of the diy stuff. i figure putting all discussion of the ergodox into a single thread isn't ideal. i want to hear people's experiences using it.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.0

i probably should have created it in the ergo forum though...


Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Thu, 11 April 2013, 15:26:04
I picked up my set yesterday, and started working on it today, modding the switches first.

I figured I might as well just integrate the diodes while I'm at it. Am I right in assuming I can just flip the diodes for the left hand, and that way have a normally (firmware) working ergodox, with integrated diodes?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 11 April 2013, 15:58:54
correct, putting the diodes inside the switch shouldn't mean any firmware change, i just has to be facing the correct direction (cathode to square),  however someone else can confirm

the smd diodes are not as hard as they look and it would be easier to mod the switches after soldering because the plate allows taking apart the switches without desoldering.

just my thoughts though, the route i took with the diodes and modding the switches
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Thu, 11 April 2013, 16:02:14
Am I right in assuming I can just flip the diodes for the left hand, and that way have a normally (firmware) working ergodox, with integrated diodes?

Yes.  To double check: make sure that all the diode cathodes (for both hands) are toward the square solder pad.

Edit: Glod beat me to posting.. :-)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 11 April 2013, 16:16:07
I must sadly announce that I have found a flaw in the PCBs.
The PCBs were supposed to allow one-unit keys in the outer columns (switches 2:0 to 5:0 and 2:13 to 5:13), but the upper holes for the switch pins are somewhat misplaced, making this difficult.
You could cram a switch down there, but one of the pins would be bent in a weird way. You would also need to use a modified plate because there are no holes for any switch mounting pins, and there are important traces on the PCB where you would have drilled them.

If there will be an ErgoDox version 2, I suggest that this flaw be fixed. Also that each trace going to a diodes is moved somewhat so that one could drill for a mounting hole without breaking the trace.

...

I had in a previous post promised to post a couple of ideas I had for bridging the gap between the thumb-keys and the main keys.

[attachimg=1]
In the image on the left, I have used a 2×1 Space key (one that I had previously made from a thick row-A numpad-0) on the key below M. It does however nudge against the N key, so some of the Space key would have to be cut off. I also found that offsetting the outer thumb-key made it easier to reach.

In the image on the right I have cut a Space Bar to size with the stem offset inside the key. Here, I used the middle PBT space bar from a Cherry G81 keyboard. If I had used a regular Space Bar for MX keys, I could have used the end of it and at least one end would not have been open like this one it on both ends. (I just did not have any MX space bar that I was willing to sacrifice)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zifle on Thu, 11 April 2013, 17:39:52
the smd diodes are not as hard as they look and it would be easier to mod the switches after soldering because the plate allows taking apart the switches without desoldering.
The diodes are in the bottom part of the switch anyways, so they shouldn't interfere. I could see it being an extra hassle, only if I needed to remove the whole switch, for whatever reason.
Regardless, sounds good, I'll continue on with great speed! Expect lots of pictures from me, when I'm done building it :3
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: haskellelephant on Thu, 11 April 2013, 18:13:47
Typing to you guys now on my new ergodox keyboard. I might update it to a more truly ergonomic keyboard like setup later. The fact that I soldered it myself makes it that much more beautiful!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Thu, 11 April 2013, 18:41:04
Typing to you guys now on my new ergodox keyboard. I might update it to a more truly ergonomic keyboard like setup later. The fact that I soldered it myself makes it that much more beautiful!

happy to hear!

--

man i really want more slope on this to really match the vip3 kit for freestyle, in fact i would really like more slope than that but matching that is fine

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/freestyle_vip3_insert.pdf

trying to figure out if i can mod the freestyle kit to work with the ergodox

I still have the VIP3 kit and the VIP3 kit is meant for the wrist rest and is too long for the ergodox but the V3 kit is shorter and may be modable to work with the ergodox

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-v3-features.htm

only thing is it is pretty expensive risk buy it and it not working out
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 April 2013, 02:12:57
alright so i just took the simple approach and just placed my ergodox directly on top of the Freestyle VIP3 accessory

it hangs out a bit but it actually fits pretty well as pictured and doesnt look too bad

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8107/8642550130_ac629121f0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8642550130/)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8531/8641449125_988f7c7846.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8641449125/)

i think im going to buy the freestyle V3 accessory and mod it to fit the ergodox, i think i can make it work
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: bebuxe on Fri, 12 April 2013, 06:36:22
Just wanted to point all out here, that you can reserve Cherry MX switches at:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html

now to sleep.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 10:22:12
Looking good, Glod! I'm curious to see how tenting the boards feels. I'll have to give it when I can find something to put under them. I noticed for me if I just twist each board inward a certain amount it makes it a lot easier for me to type although I'm still getting to the DSA caps and switch positions.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Fri, 12 April 2013, 10:59:34

I had in a previous post promised to post a couple of ideas I had for bridging the gap between the thumb-keys and the main keys.

In the image on the left, I have used a 2×1 Space key (one that I had previously made from a thick row-A numpad-0) on the key below M. It does however nudge against the N key, so some of the Space key would have to be cut off. I also found that offsetting the outer thumb-key made it easier to reach.

Putting a larger key to bridge the gap does not solve the problem, but creates more problems (large key without stabilizer cannot be pressed off center). The problem anyway is that the thumbcluster altogether is further away than needed, especially felt on the Enter and Delete keys, not so much the Space and Backspace.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 11:55:51
I just finished the right hand. some of the keys work, some of them don't. What is the most likely cause of the problem? bad soldering of the cherry keys or diode?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:02:26
You're probably going to have to check both the switch and diode joints. I had two keys not working and it turned out I forgot to solder the second end on the diodes. I think a bad solder joint on either will cause a problem with the key being detected.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:05:08
which keys aren't working? could be anything from bad solder joints on the switch, diode or even the teensy if an entire column is out.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:28:21
bunch of random keys. is it possible to burn the PCB?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: daerid on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:36:45
Ok I got a bug up my ass and want to try a crazy, crazy project.

But I will need a modified ErgoDox PCB, and am too busy atm to search through 40 pages. Are the source files for the ErgoDox PCB listed somewhere in this thread? Or should I contact the guys via MassDrop and see if they can supply it?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:38:15
the gerber files are up on the Ergodox site.

http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:45:19
Ok I got a bug up my ass and want to try a crazy, crazy project.

But I will need a modified ErgoDox PCB, and am too busy atm to search through 40 pages. Are the source files for the ErgoDox PCB listed somewhere in this thread? Or should I contact the guys via MassDrop and see if they can supply it?

crazy crazy project you say? does this means you will be making a 55g topre ergodox?  :))
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 12:51:41
bunch of random keys. is it possible to burn the PCB?

I would suggest taking a high-res picture, marking which keys don't work, and uploading it so we can all take a look.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:16:17
thanks guys.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/help.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/IMG_1557.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:23:22
From what I can see I think some of your diodes are backwards. There is a tiny grey line down the diode. I should be closest to the square pad with the hole in it because diodes do have direction to them.

You also might want to turn down the heat on your soldering iron or use a smaller tip cause you do have some scorching. I was using 600F on my Hako FX-888D but bumped it down to 580F and it helped some with the scorching.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:26:46
From what I can see I think some of your diodes are backwards. There is a tiny grey line down the diode. I should be closest to the square pad with the hole in it because diodes do have direction to them.

thanks! you are a life saver! i can see my mistakes now
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:31:07
Yup, any time! Honestly, that's one part of Mass Drop's instructions they would make clearer with high-res, close-up pictures. They do mention it in the instructions but sometimes it's easy to miss stuff like that.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:34:32
You're also flooding the pads with too much solder. A small dab would be sufficient to hold the smd in place. Throughhole has a larger margin of error, so your switches are probably fine, but even then, that's still too much solder imo.

Alot of the diodes in the places where the keys aren't working also have the diodes more off-center, mostly too much to the left, according to the picture. Not sure if that's an issue, but it did account for about 3-5 of my bad joints.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:35:51
Yup, any time! Honestly, that's one part of Mass Drop's instructions they would make clearer with high-res, close-up pictures. They do mention it in the instructions but sometimes it's easy to miss stuff like that.

yea. thanks a lot. can't thank you enough. i was so frustrated with it just now.

I thought that instructions was for the through-hole since i can visibly see the line. Didn't realize there was a line on the surface mount until u pointed it out.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:39:54
id follow these guys tips on soldering as well

maybe you are using too large a tip like a screwdriver tip? a pointy conical one worked better for me

one of the nice things about this PCB(s) is that it is very high quality, some other boards like the Costar ones are not as forgiving with mistakes as this one as i have learned the hard way. I have a rosewill that is pretty must screwed unless i do some funky stuff with the traces and i am almost certain it was because of big mistakes i made. better that board than this one
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:43:49
You're also flooding the pads with too much solder. A small dab would be sufficient to hold the smd in place. Throughhole has a larger margin of error, so your switches are probably fine, but even then, that's still too much solder imo.

Alot of the diodes in the places where the keys aren't working also have the diodes more off-center, mostly too much to the left, according to the picture. Not sure if that's an issue, but it did account for about 3-5 of my bad joints.

what is the down side of applying too much solder?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:48:17
You're also flooding the pads with too much solder. A small dab would be sufficient to hold the smd in place. Throughhole has a larger margin of error, so your switches are probably fine, but even then, that's still too much solder imo.

Alot of the diodes in the places where the keys aren't working also have the diodes more off-center, mostly too much to the left, according to the picture. Not sure if that's an issue, but it did account for about 3-5 of my bad joints.

what is the down side of applying too much solder?

You might accidentally short something out, but it's usually easy to fix and hard to find. I'd be worried about burning the board too much, but like Glod said, this board is fairly forgiving. Once you fix the diodes and test it. If you still have problems, you might want to remove some of the extra solder from some of those diodes.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Fri, 12 April 2013, 13:55:15
its not an issue until the solder flows over to another pad. as long as the connection is made, its fine. like I said, there's a sizeable margin of error for this, but since you're doing it, might as well learn how to do it properly.

I figured I'll point it out since you're going to have to redo a good amount of SMDs anyway. There's a pretty good chance the leads (the metal tips at the sides of the smd diodes) have been melted off quite a bit during your first attempt, and would be harder to reuse, though it's possible. Happened for mine.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 12 April 2013, 14:12:34
The problem anyway is that the thumbcluster altogether is further away than needed, especially felt on the Enter and Delete keys, not so much the Space and Backspace.
Yes, but we can't do anything about that without building a new keyboard with a new PCB, plate and case. I am trying to find ideas for salvaging what we have paid for by moving the symbolic keys one step outwards. Abandon the outermost thumbkey and promote the key below M to being a thumbkey.

In the case of my idea with the Space Bar below M, yes the Space bar is a bit too big and needs to be stabilised, but I think that the plate could be modified to allow stabilisers. Not that easy, but possible.

In the case of my Space Bar cut at an angle, I see now that I had put it one step too high up. If it would be moved down a step, then it would be shorter and not less stable than a 1.5 unit key.

Actually , the ErgoDox has the same distance between the innermost home-row keys and the thumb keys as the Kinesis and the Key64. What sets apart ErgoDox from the other keyboards with columnar layout is that the column offsets are quite small in comparison. Most other flat columnar keyboards have more column offset than the ErgoDox.
I think that if the column offsets had been larger then the hands would be rotated more outwards and the problem with reaching the thumb keys would not be so large.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Fri, 12 April 2013, 14:29:47
Thanks Glod and r3dx.

Yea i thought about applying a bit more soldering to make sure the connection is made. Guess I should not do that.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 13 April 2013, 01:36:30
i think one of the metal thing came off... is there any way to remedy this?

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/IMG_1559.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Sat, 13 April 2013, 04:03:37
Yeah that looks like a pad came loose. Fortunately this board uses through-hole plating, so as long as you get a solder or a small wire connection between the diode and the hole next to the pad it should be fine.

(http://i.imgur.com/6T1xGMR.jpg)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sat, 13 April 2013, 05:01:40
What is the easiest way to get the brown paper off the acrylic full hand case? I don't want to scratch it :/


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 13 April 2013, 06:13:24
Yeah that looks like a pad came loose. Fortunately this board uses through-hole plating, so as long as you get a solder or a small wire connection between the diode and the hole next to the pad it should be fine.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6T1xGMR.jpg)


it worked like a charm! thanks. I felt like i was doing an artery bypass surgery just now. hahah
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Sat, 13 April 2013, 12:04:34
What is the easiest way to get the brown paper off the acrylic full hand case? I don't want to scratch it :/


Gupgup

Yeah, it just pulls off clean. I'd keep a cloth or rag around cause acrylic picks up dust and oil easy.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Sat, 13 April 2013, 12:05:45
Yeah that looks like a pad came loose. Fortunately this board uses through-hole plating, so as long as you get a solder or a small wire connection between the diode and the hole next to the pad it should be fine.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6T1xGMR.jpg)


it worked like a charm! thanks. I felt like i was doing an artery bypass surgery just now. hahah

seferphier, where you able to get yours working properly?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sat, 13 April 2013, 13:03:59
Yeah that looks like a pad came loose. Fortunately this board uses through-hole plating, so as long as you get a solder or a small wire connection between the diode and the hole next to the pad it should be fine.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6T1xGMR.jpg)


it worked like a charm! thanks. I felt like i was doing an artery bypass surgery just now. hahah

seferphier, where you able to get yours working properly?

yup. it works now.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:08:37
congrats

welcome to the club!

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:32:56
I got a few PMs regarding SMD soldering, so I made a video for SMD diodes. It's not specifically on the ergo dox, but the same thing should apply. Jump to where it's relevant (at 3:14). Here are a few quick tips.

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:39:53
The solder pads for the SMD diodes are so tiny, the diode legs cover them completely. So, wouldn't it be better to put solder on both pads (not just one) before soldering the diode on this particular PCB ?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:49:54
I got a few PMs regarding SMD soldering, so I made a video for SMD diodes. It's not specifically on the ergo dox, but the same thing should apply. Jump to where it's relevant (at 3:14). Here are a few quick tips.

  • You'd want to use solder wire in size 0.015" or 0.020" max, anything larger than that will be hard to control the amount you apply, and you'll almost always put too much solder. If you're good, you can get away with 0.032"
  • Diodes always have polarity. The side with the line is the negative side. Make sure you get the orientation correct, otherwise they do not work.
  • You need to put solder paste on one pad first, touch one diode leg on it and reflow. This holds the diode on so you can do the other leg.
  • Also, these are small parts and do not have a high heat capacity. Don't turn up your iron temperature too high or leave it on there too long, otherwise you'll fry the pads, legs, or the diode. These are not switch pins, so you don't need much heat to melt the solder.
  • Do not put a lot of pressure on the legs or pads with the iron tip. Do it as light as you can, just barely touching. This prevents you from scraping the pad/traces off or breaking the diode legs. High temps will make this even more susceptible

Sorry if this was said, how do you determine the right way the diode goes on the PCB for the ErgoDox?

It says Note the Cathode of the diode (denoted with a line) connects to the square pad on the PCB. It looks to me like they both are square pads?


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:50:37
The solder pads for the SMD diodes are so tiny, the diode legs cover them completely. So, wouldn't it be better to put solder on both pads (not just one) before soldering the diode on this particular PCB ?

You could do that, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you have hot air and can melt both pads at the same time. If you pre-tin both pads but only reflow one at a time, either the diode won't be completely flush to the pad or PCB, or the first diode leg that you soldered will bend and you're stressing the solder joint and leg.

If tinning both pads work for you, then I'm not going to make a big stink about it, but I personally don't do it this way.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:53:58
You are right. But if you reflow the first leg you did after you do the second, won't it alleviate any stress issues?
Hmm, I just wish the solder pads where a bit bigger on this PCB... I'm not sure how will the solder can flow under the diode leg if you cannot even see the solder pad because it's so tiny. On your video, the pad is wider that the diode leg and it's no issue.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:55:18
I got a few PMs regarding SMD soldering, so I made a video for SMD diodes. It's not specifically on the ergo dox, but the same thing should apply. Jump to where it's relevant (at 3:14). Here are a few quick tips.

  • You'd want to use solder wire in size 0.015" or 0.020" max, anything larger than that will be hard to control the amount you apply, and you'll almost always put too much solder. If you're good, you can get away with 0.032"
  • Diodes always have polarity. The side with the line is the negative side. Make sure you get the orientation correct, otherwise they do not work.
  • You need to put solder paste on one pad first, touch one diode leg on it and reflow. This holds the diode on so you can do the other leg.
  • Also, these are small parts and do not have a high heat capacity. Don't turn up your iron temperature too high or leave it on there too long, otherwise you'll fry the pads, legs, or the diode. These are not switch pins, so you don't need much heat to melt the solder.
  • Do not put a lot of pressure on the legs or pads with the iron tip. Do it as light as you can, just barely touching. This prevents you from scraping the pad/traces off or breaking the diode legs. High temps will make this even more susceptible


Sorry if this was said, how do you determine the right way the diode goes on the PCB for the ErgoDox?

It says Note the Cathode of the diode (denoted with a line) connects to the square pad on the PCB. It looks to me like they both are square pads?


Gupgup

the line would face the square part of the through hole diode area which surrounds the smd area

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8519/8631583613_ff8b9ddc52_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631583613/)

edit: lol you can see in some areas i apply a bit more solder than i should have, i actually don't remember making that mistake, but i guess it was forgiving to me thankfully
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sat, 13 April 2013, 14:57:09
I got a few PMs regarding SMD soldering, so I made a video for SMD diodes. It's not specifically on the ergo dox, but the same thing should apply. Jump to where it's relevant (at 3:14). Here are a few quick tips.

  • You'd want to use solder wire in size 0.015" or 0.020" max, anything larger than that will be hard to control the amount you apply, and you'll almost always put too much solder. If you're good, you can get away with 0.032"
  • Diodes always have polarity. The side with the line is the negative side. Make sure you get the orientation correct, otherwise they do not work.
  • You need to put solder paste on one pad first, touch one diode leg on it and reflow. This holds the diode on so you can do the other leg.
  • Also, these are small parts and do not have a high heat capacity. Don't turn up your iron temperature too high or leave it on there too long, otherwise you'll fry the pads, legs, or the diode. These are not switch pins, so you don't need much heat to melt the solder.
  • Do not put a lot of pressure on the legs or pads with the iron tip. Do it as light as you can, just barely touching. This prevents you from scraping the pad/traces off or breaking the diode legs. High temps will make this even more susceptible

Sorry if this was said, how do you determine the right way the diode goes on the PCB for the ErgoDox?

It says Note the Cathode of the diode (denoted with a line) connects to the square pad on the PCB. It looks to me like they both are square pads?


Gupgup

the line would face the square part of the through hole diode area which surrounds the smd area

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8519/8631583613_ff8b9ddc52_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631583613/)

Ahhhhh hahahaha I thought they meant the little solder pads, not the diode solder pads :p

Thanks!


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 13 April 2013, 15:08:39

Sorry if this was said, how do you determine the right way the diode goes on the PCB for the ErgoDox?

It says Note the Cathode of the diode (denoted with a line) connects to the square pad on the PCB. It looks to me like they both are square pads?

The through-hole diode pad is either square or round. Negative side is square, so have the line towards the square through-hole pads.


You are right. But if you reflow the first leg you did after you do the second, won't it alleviate any stress issues?
Hmm, I just wish the solder pads where a bit bigger on this PCB... I'm not sure how will the solder can flow under the diode leg if you cannot even see the solder pad because it's so tiny. On your video, the pad is wider that the diode leg and it's no issue.

If you reflow the first leg... the second time, then at that point the legs are already slightly bent. That also more steps than if you were to just tin 1 pad first.

Yeah the pads I soldered on a different PCB were a tad larger, but ergo dox has plenty of room to solder the legs on the pads. It just requires small solder wire size, fine iron tip, and a semi-steady hands.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 13 April 2013, 15:48:47
Ok, thanks for your expert advise here, as always, WFD.  Your videos are extremely helpful too!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sat, 13 April 2013, 16:23:37
Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-ergodox-left.jpg)
(http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-ergodox-left-close.jpg)

It's loaded up with lubed browns and the "qwerty-kinesis-mod" layout to start.  Between the matrix layout and blank keys, typing is a huge challenge.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 April 2013, 16:53:06
Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

It's loaded up with lubed browns and the "qwerty-kinesis-mod" layout to start.  Between the matrix layout and blank keys, typing is a huge challenge.

Bravo dude for going through all that trouble to make the layers look decent. you did a hell of a job! the way the screws are not protruding out and the way you polished it makes it look less like a "prototype" and just all around appealing

give matrix layout a few days and you will get used to it, and don't forget the massdrop layout configure tool.

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 13 April 2013, 17:30:21
Haha, I hit my high end WPM (~ 100 using dvorak) right away, despite using blanks for the first time. But that's because of years on the Kinesis Advantage!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Sat, 13 April 2013, 17:47:58
Looking good rknize! Takes some true dedication to go full aluminum.  :D The polished look looks good too. I'm hoping that I'll be able to anodize mine eventually.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sat, 13 April 2013, 18:03:44
Another quick question!

In step 5, here (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php), it says jump wire and short the two sets of connections with white outline. Can you just take a wire clipping from one of the resistors and solder them in there? Or am I missing something :/

Thanks :D


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 April 2013, 18:16:19
Another quick question!

In step 5, here (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php), it says jump wire and short the two sets of connections with white outline. Can you just take a wire clipping from one of the resistors and solder them in there? Or am I missing something :/

Thanks :D


Gupgup

that's what i did

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 13 April 2013, 19:10:53
Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

It could have turned out good. I guess it really depends on which laser cutter they sourced. Some machines have really bad tolerances. Here is an example of a really terrible one:

http://imgur.com/ysADbOY

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Zalusithix on Sat, 13 April 2013, 20:30:15
Well, my "prototype" (non-aluminum tester) board is finally done:
[attach=1]

Technically it was done earlier, but thanks to my decision to go back and clean up some flux, things got just a hair complicated. I wasn't really thinking when I did it, and the cleaner managed to make it's way through to the other side of the PCB and under the acrylic plate causing streaking that's impossible to remove without removing every switch. It also managed to make it's way into the switches themselves causing them to no longer click (blues), and to stick. A few hours of alcohol and PTFE dry lube later, the switches are back to 90% of their original state. Good enough until I replace them with something else (Turns out I don't really care for blues all that much. Curse the general shortage of browns!)

As for the streaking? I made lemonade with those lemons. Taking it as the perfect opportunity to test out the plans my sister has for hers when it's made, I went and got some paper that pretty much perfectly matches the keycaps. After a bit of precise cutting, I end up with a result that's really quite nice.
[attach=2]
A note to anybody planning on doing something similar: leave nothing hanging on the inside. Not even half a hair's width. The tolerances of Litster's case design are too tight for any margin of error.

Beyond that, I went and added some feet to it to give it a bit of an inverse tilt. but that's all subject to change while I figure out what's best.

Now for things I'm not exactly crazy about:

More random photos here. (http://zalusithix.com/photos/ergodox/)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Sat, 13 April 2013, 20:58:01
Is there a schematic of the ErgoDox wiring?
I want to make my own case and solder diodes directly to the switches as lowpoly did on his M0110 mod: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20898.0
I just need a schematic so I know how the electronic parts go together.

Thank you.

BTW the pictures of the finished ErgoDox keyboards look great.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Glod on Sat, 13 April 2013, 21:10:44
Zalusithix it Looks fantastic!

Is there a schematic of the ErgoDox wiring?
I want to make my own case and solder diodes directly to the switches as lowpoly did on his M0110 mod: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20898.0
I just need a schematic so I know how the electronic parts go together.

Thank you.

BTW the pictures of the finished ErgoDox keyboards look great.

The gerber files are available at http://www.ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 13 April 2013, 21:18:41
  • The DSA keycaps don't have any homerow centering keys. I'm used to the Kinesis, so this layout isn't exactly hard for me, but I manage to misplace my hands enough without those wonderful homerow keys of the Kinesis.

More random photos here. (http://zalusithix.com/photos/ergodox/)

Nice pics. Put your Kinesis keycaps on the Ergodox, and the DSA on the Kinesis, you might like it! I put Kinesis keycaps on the Ergodox and while it's a big improvement, I still have some trouble positioning my hands without looking. I should probably create nubs with superglue on F and J.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sat, 13 April 2013, 21:50:47
Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

Between the matrix layout and blank keys, typing is a huge challenge.


That looks great man. I wouldn't have had the patience or skills to do what you've done with it. An idea to get help with the acclimatization - forget the dsa blank caps for now. When I got mine done at first, I threw on the blanks for an hour before I realized how hard it was to remember a non-standard layout, and I had been typing on blanks on my filco for the last 2 years. Throw on a set of labelled caps for at least the alphanumeric keys and swap them around until you figure out the layout you want (fyi, I'm on my 30th version of my layout before I figured out how I wanted it).  This way, you can look at the keys when you need to until muscle memory kicks in, which is a few days at least.

@Zalusithix - that looks great. I did the same with mine, though I left the top cover alone. It does take extremely precise cutting of the paper with a xacto. Kudos on the lemonade making.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: mikelanding on Sat, 13 April 2013, 22:42:09
Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

Between the matrix layout and blank keys, typing is a huge challenge.


That looks great man. I wouldn't have had the patience or skills to do what you've done with it. An idea to get help with the acclimatization - forget the dsa blank caps for now. When I got mine done at first, I threw on the blanks for an hour before I realized how hard it was to remember a non-standard layout, and I had been typing on blanks on my filco for the last 2 years. Throw on a set of labelled caps for at least the alphanumeric keys and swap them around until you figure out the layout you want (fyi, I'm on my 30th version of my layout before I figured out how I wanted it).  This way, you can look at the keys when you need to until muscle memory kicks in, which is a few days at least.

@Zalusithix - that looks great. I did the same with mine, though I left the top cover alone. It does take extremely precise cutting of the paper with a xacto. Kudos on the lemonade making.

The memory muscle are incredible, I had to spend couple hours to get back to my normal typing speed and accuracy when I change my Kinesis keycaps to Massdrop's DSA keyboard. I kept the Kinesis home row key unchange because it help me kept my finger at home rows without looking. Like below picture

My keycap on my Kinesis are mix and match from 3 types. Kineisis single shot (Black Lable), Kinesis doubleshow (Home row) and Massdrop's DSA.
(http://i.imgur.com/GKdmayUl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/GKdmayU)

I havent got my Ergodox yet, they are still assemble by someone. When I got it, I will use the same keycap setup and Layout as my current Kinesis. Hope it will help to reduce the adaptation time. :)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: rknize on Sat, 13 April 2013, 23:41:58
It could have turned out good. I guess it really depends on which laser cutter they sourced. Some machines have really bad tolerances. Here is an example of a really terrible one:

http://imgur.com/ysADbOY

Haha...wow.  That one was definitely not setup right.  For the Ergodox, it seems like the cutter just didn't have enough oomph to cut cleanly through the thick plates.  The cuts are not square, maybe because the aluminum dissipated the heat too quickly.  I haven't heard any of the acrylic case owners complaining, so clearly the machine is accurate.

That said, there is so reason for the inside case to be so tight against the PCB.  Litster's previous designs needed a snug fit on the sides since the PCB/plate assembly simply rest inside the case.  Ergodox mounts the switches right into the case.  Some play around the PCB is not only fine, but desirable.  That close up shot is on its best side and the camera made it look a bit better than it is.  :)  You can still see laser damage in some areas that I didn't machine down far enough and my polishing work was somewhat rushed.

As far as typing on it, yeah I need to put legends on it.  I bought a DSA Retro for this thing for that reason.  I also have horrible typing technique.  I use most of my fingers, but my hands fly all over the place.  Part of the reason I bought this thing is to force me to learn to type properly.  The blank keys are helpful that way, but man it is tiring.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: ic07 on Sat, 13 April 2013, 23:56:48
I hope it's not a n00b suggestion.. But my dad helped me drill a hole in one of my 1.5x caps, for the capslock LED to shine through. I was worried about how it'd feel to type on, but now that I've had it for a day or so, I'm thinking smaller holes might be good substitutes for home row index finger nubs. I'll have to try it later.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 00:49:16
Scratch that question, I just fixed it.

Now onto another question... this says:

Drag and drop the '.eep' file onto the Teensy loader window.

The information bar at the bottom of the window should now read "firmware.eep" followed by the percentage of the Teensy memory that will be used by this file.
Press and release the Teensy reset button (a.k.a. the "tiny pushbutton").

Where do you drop the .eep file? I am taking the firmware.eep file and placing it over the teensy program launcher, but it isn't able to place it there and it doesn't show up as the current file on my teensy?

Thanks
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 01:18:34
.eep didn't work for me either, so I skipped it entirely, and the keyboard worked anyway. It's just a tiny file containing this:  :00000001FF
Are you trying to load it with linux, windows, or mac ?  I only tried on linux, but the teensy program won't recognize it, so I'm wondering if it's a windows-only thing...
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 01:55:10
.eep didn't work for me either, so I skipped it entirely, and the keyboard worked anyway. It's just a tiny file containing this:  :00000001FF
Are you trying to load it with linux, windows, or mac ?  I only tried on linux, but the teensy program won't recognize it, so I'm wondering if it's a windows-only thing...

I did it on windows 7, but the problem was that I didn't extract the files first :p

On another note, I now have the right hand working (most keys except the right side) and the left hand is completely not working :/

Anyone have tips?


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 02:00:17
Are you using switches with integrated diodes? If so, you need to change some options in the firmware.
Otherwise, I suspect you may have gotten the jumpers wrong? Please post photos of both the top and bottom of your left PCB.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 02:03:59
Are you using switches with integrated diodes? If so, you need to change some options in the firmware.
Otherwise, I suspect you may have gotten the jumpers wrong? Please post photos of both the top and bottom of your left PCB.

I'm using clears, let me take some pics then edit this post with them!

And you wanted photos of my left PCB? Here (http://imgur.com/h9g2fDn,gwlnY6X) you are.


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 02:16:35
You got the jumpers wrong. You are supposed to join the two holes, following the white outline as drawn on the top of the PCB, not the bottom (solder) side.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 02:27:04
You got the jumpers wrong. You are supposed to join the two holes, following the white outline as drawn on the top of the PCB, not the bottom (solder) side.
a--000''00i
You got the jumpers wrong. You are supposed to join the two holes, following the white outline as drawn on the top of the PCB, not the bottom (solder) side.

Fixed it, and it works now!

Unfortunately, still a y won't show up it almost like jumps from doing qwerty to doing keys like ---\\{{{]]]]{{{{[[[[[}}}

It is really weird.. I think it is from the USB green white red and black wires, I had a lot of trouble with that


Gupgup
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 04:03:34
strange. i completed the left side and all the keys would not register. Sometimes some of the keys would register if i press on them randomly. any idea what the cause is?

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/IMG_1561.JPG)
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: wolfv on Sun, 14 April 2013, 06:02:21
Zalusithix it Looks fantastic!

Is there a schematic of the ErgoDox wiring?
I want to make my own case and solder diodes directly to the switches as lowpoly did on his M0110 mod: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20898.0
I just need a schematic so I know how the electronic parts go together.

Thank you.

BTW the pictures of the finished ErgoDox keyboards look great.

The gerber files are available at http://www.ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx
Thank you Glod.
The Front.gtl and Back.gbl show the matrix column and rows nicely.
A free online Gerber file viewer is on http://www.gerber-viewer.com/
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: Larken on Sun, 14 April 2013, 07:06:21
strange. i completed the left side and all the keys would not register. Sometimes some of the keys would register if i press on them randomly. any idea what the cause is?

Show Image
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/IMG_1561.JPG)


I believe you missed two pins on the transponder.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 08:56:15
strange. i completed the left side and all the keys would not register. Sometimes some of the keys would register if i press on them randomly. any idea what the cause is?

Show Image
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21019600/IMG_1561.JPG)


I believe you missed two pins on the transponder.

ah. you are right!
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 09:22:12
Also, the capacitor is not wired correctly. It's supposed to straddle a hole, not join 2 adjacent holes,  according to massdrop's photo:

(https://d3jqoivu6qpygv.cloudfront.net/img_bucket/ergodox/_W3T2078.jpg)

Note MD's photo doesn't show the solder pads bridged, but you should do that too.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 09:50:49
Also, the capacitor is not wired correctly. It's supposed to straddle a hole, not join 2 adjacent holes,  according to massdrop's photo:

Show Image
(https://d3jqoivu6qpygv.cloudfront.net/img_bucket/ergodox/_W3T2078.jpg)


Note MD's photo doesn't show the solder pads bridged, but you should do that too.

solder pads bridged? what does that mean?
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 09:54:22
It means apply enough solder so they are joined together, like this (ic07's photo)

(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402615_536678853015648_285544083_n.jpg)

edit: below is my photo, I actually made the bridging through the acrylic plate opening, since I didn't realize I was missing it till after I soldered the switches:

Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 11:46:03
It means apply enough solder so they are joined together, like this (ic07's photo)

Show Image
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402615_536678853015648_285544083_n.jpg)


edit: below is my photo, I actually made the bridging through the acrylic plate opening, since I didn't realize I was missing it till after I soldered the switches:



is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.
Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
Post by: r3dx on Sun, 14 April 2013, 11:55:51
    • The DSA keycaps don't have any homerow centering keys. I'm used to the Kinesis, so this layout isn't exactly hard for me, but I manage to misplace my hands enough without those wonderful homerow keys of the Kinesis.

    More random photos here. (http://zalusithix.com/photos/ergodox/)

    Nice pics. Put your Kinesis keycaps on the Ergodox, and the DSA on the Kinesis, you might like it! I put Kinesis keycaps on the Ergodox and while it's a big improvement, I still have some trouble positioning my hands without looking. I should probably create nubs with superglue on F and J.

    Good idea about the bump on the home keys, sordna. I'll have to give it a try later tonight. That is one thing I never would have guessed that I would miss when it came to the key caps.

    It'd be nice if they had included deep dish caps for this purpose or something. Maybe we can get a group buy going for this purpose or something.[/list]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:06:46

    is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.

    Well, you have the capaticor wired wrong anyway, so if you don't want to correct it, better thing is to rip out the capacitor entirely, since after all it's considered optional.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:09:07

    is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.

    Well, you have the capaticor wired wrong anyway, so if you don't want to correct it, better thing is to rip out the capacitor entirely, since after all it's considered optional.

    i corrected the capacitor. i just didn't get the solder pads bridged
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:19:11
    doesn't matter if you leave it in. the capacitor is just to clean the signal up, which is why its optional. not bridging the pads just means that the capacitor does nothing. I fixed mine up before sordna pointed it out to the massdrop guys and I decided not to do the bridging because I didn't want to melt the acrylic by accident. keyboard works fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:44:28
    the acrylic case doesn't seem to fit perfectly. the pins from the teensy board seems stick out and extend beyond the base acrylic. is this a common issue?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:47:40
    the acrylic case doesn't seem to fit perfectly. the pins from the teensy board seems stick out and extend beyond the base acrylic. is this a common issue?

    Mine fits snug like a bug, did you cut off the ends of the pins with a wire cutter?

    Could you maybe post a pic of this?


    Gupgup
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:49:36
    the acrylic case doesn't seem to fit perfectly. the pins from the teensy board seems stick out and extend beyond the base acrylic. is this a common issue?

    Mine fits snug like a bug, did you cut off the ends of the pins with a wire cutter?

    Could you maybe post a pic of this?


    Gupgup

    ah. i did not cut the ends of the pin.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 12:54:50
    Say, what is that bridging pad, right next to the "TEENSY2.0" label on the PCB ? Does anyone know?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Sun, 14 April 2013, 13:58:57
    It'd be nice if they had included deep dish caps for this purpose or something. Maybe we can get a group buy going for this purpose or something.
    I sent a quote form to SP yesterday asking how much it would be for some DSA blank black deep dish keys. I will report when I get an answer.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: r3dx on Sun, 14 April 2013, 16:26:31
    It'd be nice if they had included deep dish caps for this purpose or something. Maybe we can get a group buy going for this purpose or something.
    I sent a quote form to SP yesterday asking how much it would be for some DSA blank black deep dish keys. I will report when I get an answer.

    (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/33070427.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TastyShrimp on Sun, 14 April 2013, 18:10:22
    Done...finally.  Massdrop is making the right move by dropping the aluminum case.  It is a royal PITA.  The finish is rough, to say the least, and the fitment is awful.  There is a lot of error in the cuts, so the PCB wouldn't even fit into the case.  A lot of grinding, milling, drilling, filing, and polishing, I finally got it to work.  Not perfect, but tolerable at least.

    Show Image
    (http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-ergodox-left.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://www.knizefamily.net/images/pool/keyboard-ergodox-left-close.jpg)


    It's loaded up with lubed browns and the "qwerty-kinesis-mod" layout to start.  Between the matrix layout and blank keys, typing is a huge challenge.

    Can you give some details on how you got the screws flush, and how you polished the aluminum? I've tried to polish up my case, but I haven't been able to get that mirror finish.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 14 April 2013, 18:22:01
    Flush screws would be as simple as countersinking the top plate and using a screw with a beveled head. As for the polishing, perhaps a vibratory tumbler was used?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Sun, 14 April 2013, 18:27:34
    I drilled the top plate with a counter sink and used screws from a local hardware store.  The screws from MD are metric, but these are 4-40 x 1" long stainless steel.  As far as polishing, I just used the normal techniques with soft metals.  Once the stack was shaped they way I wanted, I wet-sanded everything with 220 and then 320-grit.  I used a block on the top surface of the top plate.  The top plate and the edges of the bottom plate were then wet-sanded again with 500-grit.  After that I used polishing and buffing compound using wheels on the drill press.  I left the middle plates with the sanded finish from the 320-grit, mainly to help hide the areas that still had exposed laser cuts.

    It's not really a mirror finish...more of a mottled shine because I didn't spend as much time doing the final sanding as I could have.  Frankly, I just got tired of working on it.  :)

    Edit: I should mention that before I started any of this, the outside of the stack was cut down using a variety of techniques to get the layers sized up the same.  Ideally this could be done on the mill, but fixturing it quickly became a pain.  In the end, I did most of the rough cutting with an angle grinder wearing a course sand-flap wheel.  This made quick work of the really high areas, but had to be done very carefully.  Everything was squared-up after that using some big files and finally blocked with emory cloth.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 14 April 2013, 19:04:57
    Say, what is that bridging pad, right next to the "TEENSY2.0" label on the PCB ? Does anyone know?

    IIRC, those two pads are already joined.  I think they supply Vcc to one pin of the capacitor (while the two pads on the other side provide GND).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 19:23:21
    Say, what is that bridging pad, right next to the "TEENSY2.0" label on the PCB ? Does anyone know?

    IIRC, those two pads are already joined.  I think they supply Vcc to one pin of the capacitor (while the two pads on the other side provide GND).

    You are right, as usual. I just used a multimeter and indeed they are joined. I just wonder what the purpose is of having them there, guess only bpiphany knows.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Gupgup on Sun, 14 April 2013, 21:11:46
    Hey Sordna! I have one final question :D

    For the USB little header that goes from connects the PC to the ErgoDox, the solder doesn't reach through the solder joint to make a connection. When the cable is plugged in it moves up and disconnects the whole keyboard :/

    Thanks again, you're helping everyone that ordered an ErgoDox and that is pretty amazing :D


    Gupgup
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 14 April 2013, 21:23:43
    Hmm, just add more solder, and let it flow downward. The holes are plated-through, so if you see the need add more solder keeping the iron on the joint for a few seconds and it will flow through the hole toward the component. You also may not have seated the connector fully on the PCB when you soldered it, I noticed too that its legs are pretty short, but I took care to push it and hold it down while soldering it and it's rock solid for me. But the issue you are seeing is easy to fix.
    BTW we are all helping each other here, it's a nice community and a great project.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Sun, 14 April 2013, 21:29:55
    Speaking of the USB connector, I wish the board was designed with a micro usb connector in mind. Nothing uses mini these days.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sun, 14 April 2013, 21:52:49
    For the USB little header that goes from connects the PC to the ErgoDox, the solder doesn't reach through the solder joint to make a connection. When the cable is plugged in it moves up and disconnects the whole keyboard :/

    Add flux. It helps solder flow, and also removes the surface oxidation so the solder can bond both surfaces better. Also, try to add some solder to the top surface at the two large legs and the 3 back pins.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Mon, 15 April 2013, 02:53:24
    Any idea how to program the keyboard so that u can control when the led turns on?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 15 April 2013, 09:06:53
    I finally got time to do a little work on my ErgoDox case. I think this may be the first
    gender ambiguous aluminum ErgoDox.
    [attachimg=1]
    No nuts.
    [attachimg=2]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Mon, 15 April 2013, 09:10:17
    I finally got time to do a little work on my ErgoDox case. I think this may be the first
    gender ambiguous aluminum ErgoDox.
    (Attachment Link)
    No nuts.
    (Attachment Link)

    wow that is fine! post it here http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.new#new
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Mon, 15 April 2013, 15:17:49
    so, finally I have my ergodox complete too. Typing on it now :) as I never have matrix keyboard or something with thumb cluster it's pretty pain :) I hope I learn it :))
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: r3dx on Mon, 15 April 2013, 15:23:36
    I finally got time to do a little work on my ErgoDox case. I think this may be the first
    gender ambiguous aluminum ErgoDox.
    (Attachment Link)
    No nuts.
    (Attachment Link)

    Great looking case, kurplop. I really like the brushed aluminum look. Would you mind posting some information on how you were able to get it to look like that? And what tool you used to round the edges.  :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 15 April 2013, 17:55:53

    [/quote]

    Great looking case, kurplop. I really like the brushed aluminum look. Would you mind posting some information on how you were able to get it to look like that? And what tool you used to round the edges.  :D
    [/quote]



    Thanks. I like the finish that way too. I originally had a mirror finish similar to Rknize's case but decided the more
    subtle brushed satin finish would look better in my office.  It's also a lot less work.

    The finish is very quick and easy but getting it shaped for finishing is another matter.  After arriving at the desired shape, sand with successively finer wet and dry sandpaper, starting with 220, then 320, 400 and finally 600 grit.
    For the first sanding (220), I laid the wet sandpaper on a flat surface, I used a granite surface plate but any flat table will work, and stroked the case across it to flatten the surface. This removes high spots from any drilling, countersinking or edge burrs left when sanding the sides flush on the five layers.  Sand in the same direction because it's hard to remove cross scratches and make sure any cross scratches are gone before going to the next grit.  Sanding with the remaining grits are best done holding the paper around a sponge sanding block. Make sure to keep the work wet, I use a spray bottle when the slurry produced gets too thick and use plenty of water. Yes it is messy but cleans up easily.  It starts to look pretty good when the 400 grit sanding is finished. Stopping at 600 grit looked right to my eye.

    I rough chamfered the edges with a 1" benchtop belt sander holding the case at a 45º angle and using a light touch. Hand sanding followed. It's best to do this before face sanding to avoid cross grain scratches.

    I tried posting a short tutorial last week but I think I may have had too many pictures. I'll try just a few now. If it works I'll add a few more later.
    [attachimg=1]
    I used a stationary belt sander to square the sides. I once used this to sand some steel and accidentally started a fire in the dust port. Be careful using wood tools for metal!
    [attachimg=2]
    After squaring I used this $20.00 air die grinder to smooth the corners. (Would you let that hand touch your keyboard?)
    [attachimg=3]
    The initial squaring gave me a reference to grind the corners square. Ain't it beautiful?  To bad the tolerances in the screw holes doesn't necessarily make it reassemble in the same alignment.

    More in another post.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Mon, 15 April 2013, 18:13:20

    is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.

    Well, you have the capaticor wired wrong anyway, so if you don't want to correct it, better thing is to rip out the capacitor entirely, since after all it's considered optional.

    To save people time figuring out why their new creation isn't working: it isn't this. The supplied capacitor is ceramic, not electrolytic, so it has no polarity.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Mon, 15 April 2013, 19:44:10
    It'd be nice if they had included deep dish caps for this purpose or something. Maybe we can get a group buy going for this purpose or something.
    I sent a quote form to SP yesterday asking how much it would be for some DSA blank black deep dish keys. I will report when I get an answer.

    Show Image
    (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/33070427.jpg)

    I was inquiring about only purchasing a couple of caps. Today I received an email saying that they have black blank dsa keycaps in stock, but none with deep dish nor a homing bump.

    Perhaps someone more established within the community than me can setup a group buy for some blank black deep dish pbt (or abs) dsa keycaps. I know a lot of us would be interested!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Mon, 15 April 2013, 19:52:36

    is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.

    Well, you have the capaticor wired wrong anyway, so if you don't want to correct it, better thing is to rip out the capacitor entirely, since after all it's considered optional.

    To save people time figuring out why their new creation isn't working: it isn't this. The supplied capacitor is ceramic, not electrolytic, so it has no polarity.

    He wired the capacitor wrong. In this case, to the wrong holes. Nobody mentioned capacitor polarity. But anyway, he might as well leave the capacitor as is, it's not connected to any other components the way he put it, and since it's optional, there's no harm.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: r3dx on Mon, 15 April 2013, 20:06:23
    It'd be nice if they had included deep dish caps for this purpose or something. Maybe we can get a group buy going for this purpose or something.
    I sent a quote form to SP yesterday asking how much it would be for some DSA blank black deep dish keys. I will report when I get an answer.

    Show Image
    (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/33070427.jpg)

    I was inquiring about only purchasing a couple of caps. Today I received an email saying that they have black blank dsa keycaps in stock, but none with deep dish nor a homing bump.

    Perhaps someone more established within the community than me can setup a group buy for some blank black deep dish pbt (or abs) dsa keycaps. I know a lot of us would be interested!

    I know, but still doesn't mean it's not true for at least inquiring.  ;D I thought I was the only one having problems finding the home row now.  :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Mon, 15 April 2013, 20:20:58
    I know, but still doesn't mean it's not true for at least inquiring.  ;D I thought I was the only one having problems finding the home row now.  :D
    :D

    I'm joining the second round of the buy on Massdrop so it'll be a while before I even get mine. I'm just planning ahead because I know I will be doomed without those bumps. It'd be nice to have professional deep dish keycaps than to create my own bumps with super glue or something.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 15 April 2013, 20:39:16
    you could probably try to get your hands on the DSA Retro leftovers after they're done and shipped out to the GB participants. Has deep dish keys even for dvorak and colemak layouts. link:http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40175.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Mon, 15 April 2013, 21:07:26

    is there any consequence of not doing it? don't want to do it over the acrylic.

    Well, you have the capaticor wired wrong anyway, so if you don't want to correct it, better thing is to rip out the capacitor entirely, since after all it's considered optional.

    To save people time figuring out why their new creation isn't working: it isn't this. The supplied capacitor is ceramic, not electrolytic, so it has no polarity.

    He wired the capacitor wrong. In this case, to the wrong holes. Nobody mentioned capacitor polarity. But anyway, he might as well leave the capacitor as is, it's not connected to any other components the way he put it, and since it's optional, there's no harm.

    Hah, well, I guess I can't read.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Mon, 15 April 2013, 22:30:44
    Hah, well, I guess I can't read.

    Gosh, that was your first post???  Welcome to geekhack, I'm sure your reading will improve as you participate more :-)
    How about you post some pics of your ergodox!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Mon, 15 April 2013, 22:48:41
    you could probably try to get your hands on the DSA Retro leftovers after they're done and shipped out to the GB participants. Has deep dish keys even for dvorak and colemak layouts. link:http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40175.0
    Thanks. I actually got in on that group buy. Unfortunately I didn't plan ahead for the ErgoDox so unless I can get the appropriate blanks, my set is going to sit on another keyboard. I will probably use the deep dish keys (since it comes with extras for different layouts) on my ErgoDox if I can't get anything that would match the massdrop set better.

    Hah, well, I guess I can't read.

    Gosh, that was your first post???  Welcome to geekhack, I'm sure your reading will improve as you participate more :-)
    How about you post some pics of your ergodox!
    Yes please. Someone should make a thread in the media section of the forums for ErgoDox pictures.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wolfv on Tue, 16 April 2013, 03:35:26
    What is the purpose of mounting a USB mini B plug on the ErgoDox PCB?
    Would ErgoDox work if the USB where plugged directly into Teensy?
    (I don't have an ErgoDox.  I am fixing to make something similar though.)

    Thank you.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bebuxe on Tue, 16 April 2013, 03:46:24
    @wolfv
    1) Portability, since most motherboards are making USB a standard port.
    2) Yes, that is part of the build process, wiring USB to the Teensy registers.
    learn more here:
    http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/

    it is a nice cheap circuit board. Arduino and pandaboard had more than what was needed. You might want to read our decision process since:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0

    we have even more articles about projects done using teensy on our geekhack projects section. Here are some great articles to get you started:
    http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:17458
    http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14618
    http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26018

    These are all under the diy discussions ARCHIVE  section:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?board=39.0

    enjoy!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 16 April 2013, 04:38:02
    kenesis vlifter mod to ergodox >> http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.msg854639#msg854639

    also trying to make that thread where we show completed ergodox and give experiences seperate from the diy/design thread, not sure if it will work out.....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 16 April 2013, 05:35:42
    Just going to reply to a few things. I would scroll back and find the quotes if the thread wasn't so active...

    The optional holes for mounting 1x keys in the outer column is obviously off. Having it pointed out to me I can see from the CAD files they are not correct. Sorry about that =P The upper holes are exactly 0.05" off, which is quite a lot. Someone should probably have noticed they aren't symmetric...

    The second solder bridge thingy under the controllers I put there just to be sure. We weren't absolutely sure if it would be necessary to cut that track on one of the halves, and if it in that case would be nice to be able to connect it easily again. I don't remember exactly... However It would probably be quite bad to set that pin as a low output (0V) on the Teensy since the track is powered at +5V =D Separating the track at the bridge would protect against that mistake.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Tue, 16 April 2013, 06:36:22
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Tue, 16 April 2013, 08:31:57
    What I did on my poker was to shoot some white paint into the back of the cap.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Tue, 16 April 2013, 09:11:38
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/

    LEDs under keys shine out the side of the keys, yes it's not very visible. If you put white keycaps they will show a lot better. The orange LED on the teensy itself is not used by the firmware as is, but you can modify the firmware to make use of it. In my case, I make it light up when I'm out of the default layer... see code patch posted earlier in this thread.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Tue, 16 April 2013, 09:49:02
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/

    LEDs under keys shine out the side of the keys, yes it's not very visible. If you put white keycaps they will show a lot better. The orange LED on the teensy itself is not used by the firmware as is, but you can modify the firmware to make use of it. In my case, I make it light up when I'm out of the default layer... see code patch posted earlier in this thread.

    how do u program it to make the lights show up when i am in a layer?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Tue, 16 April 2013, 10:00:23
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/

    LEDs under keys shine out the side of the keys, yes it's not very visible. If you put white keycaps they will show a lot better. The orange LED on the teensy itself is not used by the firmware as is, but you can modify the firmware to make use of it. In my case, I make it light up when I'm out of the default layer... see code patch posted earlier in this thread.

    yeah, but black caps are more beautiful :)) led on teensy is good idea but still i want some use of bundled leds when I soldered it :)))
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Tue, 16 April 2013, 10:45:07
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/

    LEDs under keys shine out the side of the keys, yes it's not very visible. If you put white keycaps they will show a lot better. The orange LED on the teensy itself is not used by the firmware as is, but you can modify the firmware to make use of it. In my case, I make it light up when I'm out of the default layer... see code patch posted earlier in this thread.

    yeah, but black caps are more beautiful :)) led on teensy is good idea but still i want some use of bundled leds when I soldered it :)))

    If you're up to it, you could always drill a (very) small hole through those keycaps to let the light shine through.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 16 April 2013, 12:30:37
    Updates on black blank pbt dsa deep dish keycaps (wow what a mouthful!).

    I emailed SP about a mass order and the following prices were given (bare in mind that these do not include shipping costs):

    5 keys                    $10.70 each
    10 keys                  $5.60 each
    15 keys                  $3.90 each
    25 keys                  $2.54 each
    50 keys                  $1.52 each
    75 keys                  $1.18 each
    100 keys                $1.01 each
    150 keys                $0.84 each
    200 keys                $0.76 each
    250 keys                $0.71 each
    500 keys                $0.61 each


    Is anyone interested in running with this information? I would but I still need to spam post more in order to run a group buy. I think we could probably get up to at least 50 keys without much problems with all of the people in the two rounds of ErgoDox buys (and considering that each purchase will be of at least 2 keys).

    If you are interested, please make a thread in the interest check section so we can post that link on massdrop and elsewhere.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 16 April 2013, 12:34:21
    Updates on black blank pbt dsa deep dish keycaps (wow what a mouthful!).

    I emailed SP about a mass order and the following prices were given (bare in mind that these do not include shipping costs):

    5 keys                    $10.70 each
    10 keys                  $5.60 each
    15 keys                  $3.90 each
    25 keys                  $2.54 each
    50 keys                  $1.52 each
    75 keys                  $1.18 each
    100 keys                $1.01 each
    150 keys                $0.84 each
    200 keys                $0.76 each
    250 keys                $0.71 each
    500 keys                $0.61 each


    Is anyone interested in running with this information? I would but I still need to spam post more in order to run a group buy. I think we could probably get up to at least 50 keys without much problems with all of the people in the two rounds of ErgoDox buys (and considering that each purchase will be of at least 2 keys).

    If you are interested, please make a thread in the interest check section so we can post that link on massdrop and elsewhere.

    I can't type yes enough times without making everyone scroll forever to read it. One of my two perceived dox flaws is fixed.

    Now to find a way to get a case that doesn't look that unprofessional for less than the cost of a whole second board.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:12:23
    Is anyone interested in running with this information? I would but I still need to spam post more in order to run a group buy. I think we could probably get up to at least 50 keys without much problems with all of the people in the two rounds of ErgoDox buys (and considering that each purchase will be of at least 2 keys).

    If you are interested, please make a thread in the interest check section so we can post that link on massdrop and elsewhere.
    Considering I'll need 24 myself, I think it'll be quite easy to reach beyond 50 keys. I could make the IC thread, but I'll wait to see if one of the more active members wants to take up the mantle of handling a group buy.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:18:53
    Is anyone interested in running with this information? I would but I still need to spam post more in order to run a group buy. I think we could probably get up to at least 50 keys without much problems with all of the people in the two rounds of ErgoDox buys (and considering that each purchase will be of at least 2 keys).

    If you are interested, please make a thread in the interest check section so we can post that link on massdrop and elsewhere.
    Considering I'll need 24 myself, I think it'll be quite easy to reach beyond 50 keys. I could make the IC thread, but I'll wait to see if one of the more active members wants to take up the mantle of handling a group buy.
    Sounds great! Just out of curiosity, why 24?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:27:02
    Sounds great! Just out of curiosity, why 24?
    I'm creating four keyboards (two for myself, one for my sister, one for a friend) - three of which are using the PBT DSA sets.

    Oh, and while I'm thinking about it... Sordna, how are you liking the artificial click noise? I have it engaged on my Kinesis, but in that case the sound is centered between the wells. I'm not sure how my mind would perceive a click coming from the far right when my left hand hits a key.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:38:08
    so im guessing deep disk means what it sounds like? different from the normal DSA right?

     is the goal to put these keys where the asdfghjkl; keys are? or just the F and J?, would we want them to be a different color other than black? (for looks)

    id get some at that price but i haven't got to the point where i don't need legends yet. not leet enough
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:45:56
    They're a deeper cut, more tactile key than the normal spherical DSA key. You'd use them for the asdf / jkl; keys assuming QWERTY layout. IMO, they're superior to the homing bump/nub on normal keyboards.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:49:49
    You can also use them for just the 2 index finger keys, as is usual for the homing bumps/nubs. They go very nicely with DSA sets.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:57:24
    You could, but after using the Kinesis for so long, I can't imagine downgrading to that experience. Unlike the nubs which are a necessary evil, the deep dish actually feel nice to be on. Why not give all fingers the royal treatment. ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 16 April 2013, 16:58:50
    How are you using leds on ergodox? On mine with black keycaps from massdrop is led light invisible even on acrylic case :/
    LEDs under keys shine out the side of the keys, yes it's not very visible. If you put white keycaps they will show a lot better. The orange LED on the teensy itself is not used by the firmware as is, but you can modify the firmware to make use of it. In my case, I make it light up when I'm out of the default layer... see code patch posted earlier in this thread.
    yeah, but black caps are more beautiful :)) led on teensy is good idea but still i want some use of bundled leds when I soldered it :)))
    If you're up to it, you could always drill a (very) small hole through those keycaps to let the light shine through.

    I haven't got around to building mine yet and thought it unseemly to have in-key LEDs indicating states unrelated to the key they're under, so I'm thinking of swapping the switch-mounted LEDs with their resistors -- i.e., putting the LEDs where their respective resistors would normally go (just to the left of the Teensy) and vice-versa (most likely putting the resistors on the underside of the PCB and soldering them same-side). They're series circuits, so I think it should work, just gotta take care to maintain proper LED polarity (I gather the + leads should point towards the Teensy), and of course some creative bending of the leads will be necessary to accommodate the solder pad spacing on the PCB. Maybe I should get higher-ohm resistors to dim the LEDs more, since they'd be naked instead of shielded by the keycaps?

    Another approach I'm considering is leaving the LEDs soldered where they would normally go, but putting them under the PCB (rather than thru the switches) and leaving long enough leads to bend them over to the left edge of the PCB, so when illuminated they would shine into the left edge of the case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 16 April 2013, 17:33:27
    I haven't got around to building mine yet and thought it unseemly to have in-key LEDs indicating states unrelated to the key they're under, so I'm thinking of swapping the switch-mounted LEDs with their resistors -- i.e., putting the LEDs where their respective resistors would normally go (just to the left of the Teensy) and vice-versa (most likely putting the resistors on the underside of the PCB and soldering them same-side). They're series circuits, so I think it should work, just gotta take care to maintain proper LED polarity (I gather the + leads should point towards the Teensy), and of course some creative bending of the leads will be necessary to accommodate the solder pad spacing on the PCB. Maybe I should get higher-ohm resistors to dim the LEDs more, since they'd be naked instead of shielded by the keycaps?

    Another approach I'm considering is leaving the LEDs soldered where they would normally go, but putting them under the PCB (rather than thru the switches) and leaving long enough leads to bend them over to the left edge of the PCB, so when illuminated they would shine into the left edge of the case.

    I've kinda wished at times that the LEDs were up at the top too, but not enough to mod it.  It'd be nice to see pics of how it goes, if you do - maybe I'll build one of my other kits that way :-) .

    About making them dimmer: higher ohm resistors would work of course, but you could also do it in the firmware.  All the indicator LEDs are PWMed.  It'd just be a matter of changing this line (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/makefile-options#L16) to something smaller than 0.5, and recompiling.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Tue, 16 April 2013, 17:43:31
    Hey guys,
    I just finished with the right side of my keyboard and just had to test if it works. :D
    And I'm amazed, all keys work! :)

    I only wonder about the LED of the Num key (from standard layout, switch 5:6).
    It's glowing non-stop, also if I push the button.
    Is that normal?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Tue, 16 April 2013, 18:09:39
    For the LEDs on my aluminum version, I plan on relocating them to the top via wires soldered to the bottom of the board. Small holes will then be drilled through the top plate with a small amount of fiber optic cable serving as a light guide. Each LED will be compartmentalized so that light doesn't overflow from one LED to the other. I'm also planning on making use of the extra Teensy pins to drive more LEDs, and re-purposing them as layer indicators vs caps-lock/num-lock/etc. Layer indication is more useful on a board like the ErgoDox than key state.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Tue, 16 April 2013, 18:17:20
    Hey guys,
    I just finished with the right side of my keyboard and just had to test if it works. :D
    And I'm amazed, all keys work! :)

    I only wonder about the LED of the Num key (from standard layout, switch 5:6).
    It's glowing non-stop, also if I push the button.
    Is that normal?

    Well, I'd say that a) your numlock key isn't functioning, and you just happen to have numlock on b) you soldered one leg of the LED into the diode's through-hole spot, so it's getting lit up by the matrix scanning (pretty sure this is possible, can't get the PCB the right way up in my viewer...) or c) something's wrong with your microcontroller.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Tue, 16 April 2013, 19:37:48
    Okay, it works now!
    This is my first sentence on it, and my god am I slow.
    I think I will need a lot of getting used to...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 17 April 2013, 05:39:16
    Updates on black blank pbt dsa deep dish keycaps (wow what a mouthful!).

    I emailed SP about a mass order and the following prices were given (bare in mind that these do not include shipping costs):

    5 keys                    $10.70 each
    10 keys                  $5.60 each
    ...
    500 keys                $0.61 each

    I think we could probably get up to at least 50 keys without much problems with all of the people in the two rounds of ErgoDox buys (and considering that each purchase will be of at least 2 keys).
    i keep trawling ebay, wasd, etc looking at printed caps, but this does interest me. as a kinesis user i like the whole home set being deep jobbies, so i'd probably be after 8, maybe 16 to have some ready for the 2nd one i build depending on price.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:14:00
    i keep trawling ebay, wasd, etc looking at printed caps, but this does interest me. as a kinesis user i like the whole home set being deep jobbies, so i'd probably be after 8, maybe 16 to have some ready for the 2nd one i build depending on price.
    Great! It sounds like we could push a group buy through fairly quickly and still get a pretty good price on the keycaps.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:39:44
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:43:04
    Is there a collection of firmwares online?
    This would be a fairly nice thing to be able to browse through layouts, pick one that suits you and install it.

    Edit: I'm looking for a German layout, anybody implemented one?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 17 April 2013, 07:50:26
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    as far as I've tried, and I believe it was mentioned in the notes, the media keys don't work yet, even on windows. not a linux issue.

    edit: actually it specifically mentions that it doesn't work on windows. from the configurator notes.

    Media Keys
    Unfortunately, media keys are not working on Windows at this time. There are however, software solutions, and registry solutions for the brave, to overcome this limitation.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Wed, 17 April 2013, 08:09:13
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    as far as I've tried, and I believe it was mentioned in the notes, the media keys don't work yet, even on windows. not a linux issue.

    edit: actually it specifically mentions that it doesn't work on windows. from the configurator notes.

    Media Keys
    Unfortunately, media keys are not working on Windows at this time. There are however, software solutions, and registry solutions for the brave, to overcome this limitation.

    aah, sure... i probably can use keys like F20 and map them in OS but standard media keys would be more nice :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jfsp on Wed, 17 April 2013, 08:36:13
    Just a small reminder that the DCS keycaps groupbuy ends in 17 hours :

    https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1/talk (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1/talk)

    We need 11 more "Join now" to reach the $49 price milestone, or 26 "Joins" or "Commit to join" for the $45 lowest price threshold.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ironman31 on Wed, 17 April 2013, 09:29:24
    Finally found a good solution to the foot problem. A guy at Ace hardware had the idea, I used M3 acorn nuts and Plasti-dip. Sticks like crazy to the desk.:

    (http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/5429/img20130417101744.jpg)

    (http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7346/img20130417101844.jpg)

    (http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6441/img20130417101750.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xythian on Wed, 17 April 2013, 10:52:47
    i keep trawling ebay, wasd, etc looking at printed caps, but this does interest me. as a kinesis user i like the whole home set being deep jobbies, so i'd probably be after 8, maybe 16 to have some ready for the 2nd one i build depending on price.
    Great! It sounds like we could push a group buy through fairly quickly and still get a pretty good price on the keycaps.

    In the interim, Signature Plastics has ~153 "DSA - 1X W/ HOMING BUMP - CREAM (WCX)" in stock for $1 a key + S&H. If you can't wait for deep dish keys and don't want to add superglue nubs, this could be a quick stopgap for adding homing keys with a bump and a different color.

    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php
    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/inventorypdfs/DSAInventory.pdf
    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/pbtWhites.JPG
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 17 April 2013, 15:30:23
    Just a small reminder that the DCS keycaps groupbuy ends in 17 hours :

    https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1/talk (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-keycap-1/talk)

    We need 11 more "Join now" to reach the $49 price milestone, or 26 "Joins" or "Commit to join" for the $45 lowest price threshold.

    MD has just extended the DCS keycap buy for another 4 days to coincide with the end of the ErgoDox kit buy.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 17 April 2013, 15:36:15
    Is there a collection of firmwares online?
    This would be a fairly nice thing to be able to browse through layouts, pick one that suits you and install it.

    Edit: I'm looking for a German layout, anybody implemented one?
    The discussion tab on the configurator page (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/#tab-discussion) has a number of folks sharing links to the layouts they've devised.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 17 April 2013, 16:18:21
    ... adding homing keys with a bump and a different color...
    ooh, good point. something other than black might be good, those kinesis guys know what they're doing it seems:
    (http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6861/Kinesis%20Advantage%20%282%29_678x452.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Wed, 17 April 2013, 17:51:13
    i keep trawling ebay, wasd, etc looking at printed caps, but this does interest me. as a kinesis user i like the whole home set being deep jobbies, so i'd probably be after 8, maybe 16 to have some ready for the 2nd one i build depending on price.
    Great! It sounds like we could push a group buy through fairly quickly and still get a pretty good price on the keycaps.

    In the interim, Signature Plastics has ~153 "DSA - 1X W/ HOMING BUMP - CREAM (WCX)" in stock for $1 a key + S&H. If you can't wait for deep dish keys and don't want to add superglue nubs, this could be a quick stopgap for adding homing keys with a bump and a different color.

    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php
    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/inventorypdfs/DSAInventory.pdf
    http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/colors/pbtWhites.JPG
    Thanks for the heads up. The perfect set (for me) would be deep dish in black, so I still plan to go forward with a group buy. But that will be a good plan B.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Wed, 17 April 2013, 18:00:38
    ... adding homing keys with a bump and a different color...
    ooh, good point. something other than black might be good, those kinesis guys know what they're doing it seems:
    Show Image
    (http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6861/Kinesis%20Advantage%20%282%29_678x452.jpg)

    Would be a matter of getting everybody happy with a given color, and PBT colors aren't quite as vivid as the ABS keys used on the Kinesis. Still, even with plain black, it's easy enough to figure out by key shape alone. The deep dish keys have a slightly higher edge ridge, smaller key face, and deeper concave shape. They're different enough to both feel and see the difference.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bebuxe on Wed, 17 April 2013, 18:10:42
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?
    I will, and on FreeBSD. You need to set them with the correct scan codes:
    http://hal.freedesktop.org/quirk/quirk-keymap-list.txt
    http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2keyboard/scancodes2.html
    http://www.x.org/wiki/XKB

    We should append a map for these, and the rest of the char as an optional .header
    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware
    a copy: https://github.com/judascleric/ergodox-firmware

    @wasabah,SubGothius
    We should really make a sub folder on the repository for the layouts, and only the most populars. Of course, we need to finish the ECMAScript KB mapper. I just need the time make a cli option for this, maybe even using xmodmap as the interface.

    @Zalusithix
    report it to Soarer, to remove your post.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ElectronicFur on Wed, 17 April 2013, 18:15:20
    Ok, I still have reservations about the thumb cluster reach, but I finally joined the group buy ;D

    A bit naughty as I just got a 2nd Kinesis off fleabay!

    So now where can I get MX browns from? And is plate or pcb better?

    EF
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Wed, 17 April 2013, 18:17:52
    Ok, I still have reservations about the thumb cluster reach, but I finally joined the group buy ;D

    A bit naughty as I just got a 2nd Kinesis off fleabay!

    So now where can I get MX browns from? And is plate or pcb better?

    EF
    You will probably want to plate mount the switches, but it's okay to get pcb mount switches as long as you don't mind cutting the two plastic pins on the back of each switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bebuxe on Wed, 17 April 2013, 18:19:06
    @ElectronicFur
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg850049#msg850049
    > http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 17 April 2013, 19:42:25
    Many thanks to all of the contributors to the ErgoDox Project.  I got the firmware loaded last night and was honestly surprised when I hit a key and a letter registered. It's like it came to life before my eyes. I wonder if it was like that for Dr. Frankenstein. I confess, I was giddy. I didn't question the design, only my inexperience working with electronics and my lack of digital savvy. Fortunately, the fine Massdrop instructions and a lot of wise advice from the Geekhack group prevailed.

    I'm working on a tray for the ErgoDox Twins and would like to modify an old Expert Mouse to fit between them. The E.M. switches have three wires and the ones I hope to use have two. I assume this has to do with the additional commands it can send by pressing two switches simultaneously.

    If I'm not interested in the tandem press option, only the four single press commands, do you think these single pole switches will work?

    [attachimg=1]
    [attachimg=2]
    A work in progress.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 17 April 2013, 19:53:25
    dude, dude, dude, woah dude

    words can't describe how awesome i think that is and how you integrated the trackball (kensington pro?)

    the switches should work, sordna's made palm buttons mod for his kenesis that looked similar http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0 (the bottom of the original post)

    it looks great how its going. i would be really interested how it turns out, maybe get some vinyl wrap, like fake carbon fiber, that you use a heat gun to apply to finish it off making it look like a single unit. i dunno just talking without really thinking

    *thumbs up*

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 17 April 2013, 19:57:37
    Is there a collection of firmwares online?
    This would be a fairly nice thing to be able to browse through layouts, pick one that suits you and install it.

    Edit: I'm looking for a German layout, anybody implemented one?

    My understanding is that creating a firmware that doesn't use the codes supported by the usb standard will not be possible. This is what Ben, the firmware developer stated on MassDrop:

    Quote
    Unicode characters are not supported in firmware - and can't be, as far as I've been able to see. The people that designed the spec for USB keyboards decided to have them send scan codes (just like keyboards have since the beginning of time, I think) instead of UTF-8 characters. I'm kind of mad at them for that too, lol.
    Also, to those wanting international layouts: the USB spec doesn't define those characters explicitly - it defines a more or less US layout + some "international" keys and other things, and expects the rest to be handled in software (for the convenience of hardware manufacturers). So, good news is that your layout is supported by the firmware. Bad news is that I can't tell you how to do it without resorting to Unixish programs and modifying C code ;) - hopefully Jasper's able to get the configurator to detect the keys (though, testing for the detection of keys on keyboards not readily available in the US probably isn't the easiest thing to do - something to bear in mind), or someone else has easier ideas for determining the keycodes and looking up their names in the configurator
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:00:25
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    There is a pull request on github to add the support for the media keys. It seems it is specifically designed for Windows but it might also work on Linux too:

    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/23
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:09:21
    dude, dude, dude, woah dude

    words can't describe how awesome i think that is and how you integrated the trackball (kensington pro?)

    the switches should work, sordna's made palm buttons mod for his kenesis that looked similar http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0 (the bottom of the original post)

    it looks great how its going. i would be really interested how it turns out, maybe get some vinyl wrap, like fake carbon fiber, that you use a heat gun to apply to finish it off making it look like a single unit. i dunno just talking without really thinking

    *thumbs up*



    Thanks Glod. I've appreciated your enthusiasm over the EgdoDox these last few months.

    Your "fake carbon fiber" comment got me thinking. Why not use carbon fiber?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:23:09
    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:24:02
    wow, kurplop, that tray looks awesome, even in its current state. can't wait to see what your finished product looks like.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:45:54
    Your "fake carbon fiber" comment got me thinking. Why not use carbon fiber?

     :eek: "Smoke 'em if you got 'em", interested to see how this progresses, maybe just go ahead and integrate the pcb into the setup (make your own case)

    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???

    i mean that is kind of true but this just shows the ergodox has some potential for some awesome modding. Different styles for different people

    i personally prefer some distance apart :)

    (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8101/8659758322_66cbfaae29.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8659758322/)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 17 April 2013, 20:54:58
    Your "fake carbon fiber" comment got me thinking. Why not use carbon fiber?

     :eek: "Smoke 'em if you got 'em", interested to see how this progresses, maybe just go ahead and integrate the pcb into the setup (make your own case)

    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???

    i mean that is kind of true but this just shows the ergodox has some potential for some awesome modding. Different styles for different people

    i personally prefer some distance apart :)

    (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8101/8659758322_66cbfaae29.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8659758322/)


    like a bausse!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 17 April 2013, 21:11:05
    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???

    It's funny you should say that. I thought the same thing when I saw what I had created.
    I suppose that most of us didn't really know if we would like the ErgoDox. It's been an experiment for us all.

    There are a few reasons I never seriously considered the Kinesis. Keep in mind I never tried one so I could be wrong. Also, just because it may not be right for me doesn't mean that I don't think it's a great design. My biggest reason is that I think the key wells would be too confining for my hands. Some days I have to type differently because of hand problems and I think the design would force text book hand positioning. I also think the tenting and skewed position will be more comfortable for my needs on the ErgoDox. Plus it was a great learning opportunity and a lot of fun building it.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Thu, 18 April 2013, 00:09:19
    @kurplop best mod ever.

    Now I am a bit curious on how far do u guys keep the ErgoDox apart? I actually keep it quite close together. Doesn't feel that comfortable if it put it far apart.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Thu, 18 April 2013, 00:23:05
    @kurplop best mod ever.

    Now I am a bit curious on how far do u guys keep the ErgoDox apart? I actually keep it quite close together. Doesn't feel that comfortable if it put it far apart.

    I think in theory the only thing that matters is that they align with your forearms (so your wrists are straight). If you keep them close together, I imagine you'll want to tilt them inwards to match your arm alignment; personally, I have mine lined up with the armrests on my desk chair.

    Which, by the way, is AWESOME because it frees up a damn acre of desk space in place it matters most: right in front of me.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Thu, 18 April 2013, 01:24:05
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    There is a pull request on github to add the support for the media keys. It seems it is specifically designed for Windows but it might also work on Linux too:

    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/23

    Oh, yes, I see... maybe I try at weekend get my ergodox home and apply this patch to my firmware and see what it sends :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Thu, 18 April 2013, 01:33:46
    so im guessing deep disk means what it sounds like? different from the normal DSA right?

     is the goal to put these keys where the asdfghjkl; keys are? or just the F and J?, would we want them to be a different color other than black? (for looks)

    id get some at that price but i haven't got to the point where i don't need legends yet. not leet enough
    You can see a picture of the contrast between DSA deep dish keys and normal DSA keys near the bottom of this page.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40175.870
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: islisis on Thu, 18 April 2013, 03:27:51
    i personally prefer some distance apart :

    the colour coordination in this pic is badass :D

    and does it matter if users mod the ergodox into a case? i would think the point is: modular for custom fit

    not everyone wants to take apart their kinesis
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 18 April 2013, 08:07:58
    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???

    How far apart is the kinesis split?  Measuring from the center of the G to the center of H, a standard keyboard is about 1", my Truly Ergonomic keyboard is 2", my current ErgoDox position is 9". With the tenting and a 30º+ splay, that feels about right for me.

    How far apart have other users spread their ErgoDoxes?

    My bigger concern is whether I'll like the center trackball placement. I chose it because, with the keyboard tenting, it becomes difficult to tent the trackball the way I find comfortable.
    [attach=1]
    I'm hoping that the ambidextrous trackball position will make up for the loss.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Thu, 18 April 2013, 08:41:06
    Ah... I thought the whole point of the ergo dox was to be able to separate them farther apart..

    So, now you put them "BACK" together like the kinesis? why not just get a kinesis then ???

    ergodox gives you the freedom to set the distance. that is different from just buying the kinesis.

    i might want to put them further apart if it wasn't for the mouse. i want the mouse to be aligned to my forearm.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 18 April 2013, 17:44:04
    ... So now where can I get MX browns from? And is plate or pcb better?
    You will probably want to plate mount the switches, but it's okay to get pcb mount switches as long as you don't mind cutting the two plastic pins on the back of each switch.
    Actually, there's no need to cut off the extra PCB-mount pins, as the ErgoDox PCB already has holes drilled for them; it can take either kind of switch as-is. If you're going without a mounting plate (i.e., not buying the standard acrylic case supplied with the kit) you would probably want to get switches with the extra PCB-mount pins. I suspect it's also possible and desirable to melt down those side pins (not the big center post) after installation to act as rivet heads against the PCB, further securing the switch to the PCB and taking some strain away from the solder points.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Thu, 18 April 2013, 17:49:57
    Here's the link to the IC thread about the deep dish keycaps: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42547.0

    ... So now where can I get MX browns from? And is plate or pcb better?
    You will probably want to plate mount the switches, but it's okay to get pcb mount switches as long as you don't mind cutting the two plastic pins on the back of each switch.
    Actually, there's no need to cut off the extra PCB-mount pins, as the ErgoDox PCB already has holes drilled for them; it can take either kind of switch as-is. If you're going without a mounting plate (i.e., not buying the standard acrylic case supplied with the kit) you would probably want to get switches with the extra PCB-mount pins. I suspect it's also possible and desirable to melt down those side pins (not the big center post) after installation to act as rivet heads against the PCB, further securing the switch to the PCB and taking some strain away from the solder points.
    Oops, my bad. Thanks for the clarification.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: judascleric on Thu, 18 April 2013, 19:04:10
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    There is a pull request on github to add the support for the media keys. It seems it is specifically designed for Windows but it might also work on Linux too:

    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/23

    I wrote the patch. Have to clean it up and document when I get a chance before it gets merged. It supports Play/Pause, Next Track, Prev Track. I only tested in OS X, but it came from Microsoft documentation (actually it came from Hasu's tmk firmware) so it should work on Windows and I would be shocked if it didn't work in Linux. It's a separate scan code report from normal keys. I could hook up Volume Up and Volume Down media keys if the normal codes aren't working for Linux folk. I didn't bother because the normal key Volume Up and Volume down worked in OS X for me.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 19 April 2013, 00:10:51
    Ok, just finished installing stabilizers... A few interesting things to note:

    The case is cut/designed wrong for the stabilizer closest to the main key cluster. For the key to align correctly the guides must be put in backwards. This creates it's own set of problems however in that the bars aren't meant to be used on that side of the switch and won't go down all the way as the switch housing interrupts the movement. By reshaping the bar, I got around that particular setback, but created a new one in turn. The newly bent bar ended up interfering with the key cap itself. I had to then shave down the key where the stabilizer was scuffing to fix that.

    On the bright side, the key that was giving me a bit more resistance than I would have liked is now better. I doubt if I'll go through the hassle of doing that for the other boards though...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Fri, 19 April 2013, 02:26:24
    by the way, anybody using ergodox on linux? media keys with firmware from massdrop configurator aren't sending any keycodes. Is there any way to change firmware to send standard media key codes?

    There is a pull request on github to add the support for the media keys. It seems it is specifically designed for Windows but it might also work on Linux too:

    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/23

    I wrote the patch. Have to clean it up and document when I get a chance before it gets merged. It supports Play/Pause, Next Track, Prev Track. I only tested in OS X, but it came from Microsoft documentation (actually it came from Hasu's tmk firmware) so it should work on Windows and I would be shocked if it didn't work in Linux. It's a separate scan code report from normal keys. I could hook up Volume Up and Volume Down media keys if the normal codes aren't working for Linux folk. I didn't bother because the normal key Volume Up and Volume down worked in OS X for me.

    Strange - volume up/down and mute keys aren't working for me... only tested with firmware from massdrop web configurator. Actually these 3 are only media keys which I really need :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 19 April 2013, 02:30:17
    Ok, just finished installing stabilizers... A few interesting things to note:

    The case is cut/designed wrong for the stabilizer closest to the main key cluster. For the key to align correctly the guides must be put in backwards. This creates it's own set of problems however in that the bars aren't meant to be used on that side of the switch and won't go down all the way as the switch housing interrupts the movement. By reshaping the bar, I got around that particular setback, but created a new one in turn. The newly bent bar ended up interfering with the key cap itself. I had to then shave down the key where the stabilizer was scuffing to fix that.

    On the bright side, the key that was giving me a bit more resistance than I would have liked is now better. I doubt if I'll go through the hassle of doing that for the other boards though...

    Costar or cherry plate?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: r3dx on Fri, 19 April 2013, 09:14:05
    Ok, just finished installing stabilizers... A few interesting things to note:

    The case is cut/designed wrong for the stabilizer closest to the main key cluster. For the key to align correctly the guides must be put in backwards. This creates it's own set of problems however in that the bars aren't meant to be used on that side of the switch and won't go down all the way as the switch housing interrupts the movement. By reshaping the bar, I got around that particular setback, but created a new one in turn. The newly bent bar ended up interfering with the key cap itself. I had to then shave down the key where the stabilizer was scuffing to fix that.

    On the bright side, the key that was giving me a bit more resistance than I would have liked is now better. I doubt if I'll go through the hassle of doing that for the other boards though...

    I also noticed this when I was trying to install some Costar stabilizers. I'm not sure if Cherry ones would work better cause I don't really have any to try or know where to pick some up.

    Honestly I ended up just removing them because they probably aren't required due to the fact that your thumb is most likely hitting the key the full length anyways, but I'm sure they can't hurt.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Fri, 19 April 2013, 10:05:14
    I had no trouble with the inner 2x keys, but the outer ones often bind up on me.  I'll probably have to put stabs in.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: r3dx on Fri, 19 April 2013, 10:18:50
    Yeah, you might want to give it a shot. I tried it and wasn't all that impressed with how it turned out.

    I'm pretty happy with how the keyboard is now with lubed clears and having fixed all the case clearance issues.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 19 April 2013, 12:45:49
    I also noticed this when I was trying to install some Costar stabilizers. I'm not sure if Cherry ones would work better cause I don't really have any to try or know where to pick some up.

    Honestly I ended up just removing them because they probably aren't required due to the fact that your thumb is most likely hitting the key the full length anyways, but I'm sure they can't hurt.
    Yeah, they aren't really needed - the Kinesis works fine without them. It was more a matter of one key switch being less receptive to off center hits than others that prompted my experimenting with them. I figured since the plate gave me the option, then why not?

    On my next build, I'm going to try and elongate the stabilizer slots in question and patch the back side an equal amount. The bent bars really aren't ideal in that's near impossible to keep the parts that are supposed to be parallel running true to each other. This causes the bar to pull on the tabs a bit unevenly and the hinge action to have points of resistance.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 19 April 2013, 13:26:28
    I can just confirm that someone (me being the usual suspect) messed up those stabilizer mounts =P The slots are mirrored towards each other while the switches are the same direction...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Fri, 19 April 2013, 13:53:36
    Yeah, I noticed that they were mirrored and just shrugged assuming that it was a goof up, or an assumption based on a previous layout.

    I've actually started thinking about a slightly different route now, but I'll have to think the jig required through a bit more. Basically instead of doing a simple slot cutting/filling, it would just be slot cutting (on both sets). Then a layer of the switch plate would be ground off near the stabilizers thick enough for piece of metal the normal thickness for the stabilizer mounts. This is then screwed/epoxied/whatever into place over the extended slots. This would effectively allow the stabilizer mounts to click into place like they would on a normal plate. I shaved them down and super glued them into place, but that's not really ideal.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tilmann on Sat, 20 April 2013, 17:21:10
    I've soldered the right side of my ErgoDox and flashed the firmware on it but I can't see any keypresses and the OS also doesn't detect a new USB device when I plug the keyboard in. Any idea how to debug this?

    Thanks in advance!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Sat, 20 April 2013, 21:25:00
    I've soldered the right side of my ErgoDox and flashed the firmware on it but I can't see any keypresses and the OS also doesn't detect a new USB device when I plug the keyboard in. Any idea how to debug this?

    Thanks in advance!

    Sure the loader application actually showed a success message in the status bar when it finished? If you're using Windows, does Device Manager reenumerate when you plug it in? I assume you loaded the firmware via the outboard USB connector (vs. the one on the Teensy).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 21 April 2013, 02:04:12
    So, I haven't even got around to building mine yet, but when I went to Radio Shack to get some soldering supplies tonight, I stumbled across a promising solution to the desire for tenting. I found these PCB standoffs, which are basically just coupling nuts:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102848

    As it turns out, they're M3 threaded, the same as the screws supplied for the layer case, so they can be used to fashion adjustable legs on the inboard end. Better yet, they're attractively chromed and come in a set of 4 for just $1.99! Use the standoffs instead of the nuts provided with the kit, add a couple additional M3 screws of desired length and adjust to taste, then use the provided nuts as locknuts, as pictured here.

    EDIT: It just occurred to me it might be a good idea to add a washer between the standoff and the acrylic (and maybe on top as well, between the acrylic and screw head) to better distribute stress and avoid potentially cracking the acrylic due to the lever effect of the long legs. The M3 screws provided with the ErgoDox kit are barely long enough to fully engage the provided nuts, and the standoff threading is slightly countersunk, so adding washers would reduce thread engagement even further, thus it's prolly best to get some slightly longer M3 screws to go through the case at those points, keeping the provided screws to use as feet.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tilmann on Sun, 21 April 2013, 06:27:15
    Sure the loader application actually showed a success message in the status bar when it finished? If you're using Windows, does Device Manager reenumerate when you plug it in? I assume you loaded the firmware via the outboard USB connector (vs. the one on the Teensy).
    I actually connected the ErgoDox only with the USB connector of the Teensy and incorrectly assumed that it doesn't make a difference whether you use the outboard USB connector or connect to the Teensy directly. But yeah I guess connecting only the Teensy means the rest of the keyboard is unpowered :) Although I don't understand why the ErgoDox didn't show up as a USB device since from the perspective of the Teensy itself there shouldn't be a difference in how you connect it, right?

    I'm now using the outboard USB connector and the firmware boots fine, the three LEDs light up consecutively (so the firmware was indeed flashed correctly, I didn't reflash after soldering the outboard USB connector) and all the keys seem to work except for the first key with an LED counting from the bottom. I flashed the qwerty-kinesis-mod firmware (just for testing purposes, going to flash the colemak layout later) and looking at the sources it seems this key is used to switch between layers, what's the expected behavior there? Should the LED light up once the layer is active? It definitely doesn't activate another layer. The LED works fine though as it lights up during the boot.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sun, 21 April 2013, 06:57:00
    if you're using the firmware from the massdrop layout generator, led A, B, C is tied to the following in order: numlock, caplock, and scroll-lock.

    keep in mind that ~L2 is not 'numlock', although it does allow you to access the numpad. The actual numlock toggle resides inside L2, and it is the one that activates the led A on/off status, which is why LED A tends to stay on all the time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: magnific0 on Sun, 21 April 2013, 11:03:00
    So, I haven't even got around to building mine yet, but when I went to Radio Shack to get some soldering supplies tonight, I stumbled across a promising solution to the desire for tenting. I found these PCB standoffs, which are basically just coupling nuts:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102848

    As it turns out, they're M3 threaded, the same as the screws supplied for the layer case, so they can be used to fashion adjustable legs on the inboard end. Better yet, they're attractively chromed and come in a set of 4 for just $1.99! Use the standoffs instead of the nuts provided with the kit, add a couple additional M3 screws of desired length and adjust to taste, then use the provided nuts as locknuts, like so:

    Time to stop lurking. I'm participating in the second round and have been planning everything in my head for days.

    I have been sleeping on the legs for the last three days. This is an amazing solution, great find, thanks! I'll definitely go this route as well.

    I have a question about the LEDs. Did anyone manage to route the LEDs to the top of the case yet? I find it awkward to have them under keys that have no relation to their function.

    Also, how comfortable is it to type on the classic-case Ergodox without wrists pads/rests on a flat desk?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 21 April 2013, 16:05:54
    I have a question about the LEDs. Did anyone manage to route the LEDs to the top of the case yet? I find it awkward to have them under keys that have no relation to their function.

    I had the same inclination, so this may be relevant to your interests:
    I'm thinking of swapping the switch-mounted LEDs with their resistors -- i.e., putting the LEDs where their respective resistors would normally go (just to the left of the Teensy) and vice-versa (most likely putting the resistors on the underside of the PCB and soldering them same-side). They're series circuits, so I think it should work, just gotta take care to maintain proper LED polarity (I gather the + leads should point towards the Teensy), and of course some creative bending of the leads will be necessary to accommodate the solder pad spacing on the PCB.

    Another approach I'm considering is leaving the LEDs soldered where they would normally go, but putting them under the PCB (rather than thru the switches) and leaving long enough leads to bend them over to the left edge of the PCB, so when illuminated they would shine into the left edge of the case.

    As to your other question:
    Quote
    Also, how comfortable is it to type on the classic-case Ergodox without wrists pads/rests on a flat desk?
    You could use small wrist rests without an attached mousepad, as some have posted earlier in this thread, or just buy a $12 pair of palm pads from Kinesis; any of these would be simple enough to adhere to the full-hand case, which would be necessary if you wanted wrist rests together with tenting.

    That said, if you really want optimal ergonomics, I feel obliged to point out it's best to avoid resting your wrists on anything, and even worse to do so with your hands bent back, as that puts pressure on the carpal nerve, which is the canonical cause of carpal tunnel syndrome (wrist bending/twisting does not cause carpal tunnel per se, though that can cause other, unrelated wrist RSIs and aggravate existing wrist conditions).

    It's best to rest your elbows and/or forearms on your chair arms and then put your desk or keyboard tray at a height where your hands can "hover" an inch or so above the keyboard. IMO, the "classic" case design without palm rests would tend to encourage this technique by providing nowhere for your wrists to rest upon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Unix Guru on Sun, 21 April 2013, 17:05:19
    Here you go. I put them in but one side popped out because the wedge that normally grabs the underside of the plate (on normal keyboards with thin plates) needs to be filed off so it becomes like the red portion in the photo you provided in another thread:
    Show Image
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41937.0;attach=17766;image)


    Just FYI... I used a small Dremel Engraving Cutter with a round cutter to make a dent inside each slot at both ends.  I am surprised at how well the stab mount works now.  No need to file/cut off the snap.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 21 April 2013, 19:49:34
    Okay, just to doublecheck on the diodes. No matter which method, you should always have the line close to the square pad? I'm doing through hole on this one, 'cause I'm opening all the switches anyway to make ergo clears and "heavy reds".

    I really don't want to mess this up and have to desolder everything.

    Better question: is this good?
    (http://i.imm.io/13C7e.png)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:45:03
    I will tell you in a sec. let me look at my dox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:51:06
    The Cathode or the black line or the negative side will face the Square pad.

    How do Heavy reds feel? Do they feel more like red's than blacks?
    I think the red stem feels more hollow than the blacks and black stems feel a little more "stiff or solid"
    What do you have to say?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 21 April 2013, 21:16:52
    The Cathode or the black line or the negative side will face the Square pad.

    How do Heavy reds feel? Do they feel more like red's than blacks?
    I think the red stem feels more hollow than the blacks and black stems feel a little more "stiff or solid"
    What do you have to say?
    I'm making these two for someone else, but I have tried reds on my daily driver for a long while. I had a QFR in reds from PChome when they were first available. I really liked it. If you can "float" your fingers, you can really type fast on it, and gaming was easy too. now I've migrated to heavier switches, and use greens / buckling spring as my daily and sometimes I go to my ergoclears keyboard (phantom)

    I'll bu putting either whites or light whites in my ergoDOX, I think.

    Cherry blacks are my least favourite switch by far, but I have the most of them (for cherry, I have many many more B/S switches, even if I only count model F's). Several WYSE keyboards, several access-is, etc.

    ----
    So I thought I was right. Line = pad. as long as I doublecheck before soldering, I should be okay, as the LH size is the reverse of the RH side.

    Thanks for the confirmation, TheQsanity. It was a lot easier to visually check my personal ergoDOX, which I learned how to SMD for. My close vision must be decent, 'cause I can see the lines on the SM diodes quite well. It's harder for the diodes inside cherry switches, though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sahihe on Mon, 22 April 2013, 09:48:50
    @SubGothias - Love that tenting idea. Definitely going to give it a try. How was the stability overall? Did you feel a need for support from the third screw?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 22 April 2013, 11:53:20
    So, I haven't even got around to building mine yet, but when I went to Radio Shack to get some soldering supplies tonight, I stumbled across a promising solution to the desire for tenting. I found these PCB standoffs, which are basically just coupling nuts:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102848

    As it turns out, they're M3 threaded, the same as the screws supplied for the layer case, so they can be used to fashion adjustable legs on the inboard end. Better yet, they're attractively chromed and come in a set of 4 for just $1.99! Use the standoffs instead of the nuts provided with the kit, add a couple additional M3 screws of desired length and adjust to taste, then use the provided nuts as locknuts, like so:

    Perfect. Minimal, elegant, and functional solution. Definitely going to do this as well, but I'm going to see what I can do to make them easily removable without compromising the case integrity.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zalusithix on Mon, 22 April 2013, 12:12:41
    Just FYI... I used a small Dremel Engraving Cutter with a round cutter to make a dent inside each slot at both ends.  I am surprised at how well the stab mount works now.  No need to file/cut off the snap.
    My question is how well the acrylic holds up to snapping the mount in and out over time. Seeing as how the notch leaves a rather thin overhang, I feared it breaking off eventually. I mean, obviously it's not something that should be happening on a regular basis, but thin pieces of relatively brittle plastic make me worry.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: magnific0 on Mon, 22 April 2013, 14:39:42
    Thanks SubGothius for your answers.

    Perfect. Minimal, elegant, and functional solution. Definitely going to do this as well, but I'm going to see what I can do to make them easily removable without compromising the case integrity.

    I found an eBay seller that has a wide variety here:
    http://stores.ebay.com/395six7/_i.html?_nkw=m3 (http://stores.ebay.com/395six7/_i.html?_nkw=m3)

    For detachment you could first add a ~4mm F-F spacer and leave it on permanently and attach a longer F-M spacer to that. I also got some nylon screws, figured they would help prevent scratching.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Canut on Mon, 22 April 2013, 17:11:04
    The threaded stand-offs look good. Just what I need to implement my idea of attaching swivel (leveling) feet.

    The feet have a threaded post with a ball-joint foot on the end. So you get fine vertical adjustment (tenting!) plus the rubber foot-pad self-adjusts to the desk surface. They come in every size from industrial machinery downwards. Some M3 threaded versions should be easy to find

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=leveling+feet&rt=nc

       
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: damorgue on Mon, 22 April 2013, 17:26:31
    The threaded stand-offs look good. Just what I need to implement my idea of attaching swivel (leveling) feet.

    The feet have a threaded post with a ball-joint foot on the end. So you get fine vertical adjustment (tenting!) plus the rubber foot-pad self-adjusts to the desk surface. They come in every size from industrial machinery downwards. Some M3 threaded versions should be easy to find

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=leveling+feet&rt=nc
       

    They are quite hard to find in those small sizes. I have been looking for some that small for several projects. Please let me know if you find any.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 22 April 2013, 20:16:03
    Love that tenting idea. Definitely going to give it a try. How was the stability overall? Did you feel a need for support from the third screw?
    I haven't finished building mine yet, so I can't speak for how well it works in actual practice, but it seems quite stable poking around on it as pictured. The legs are slightly splayed out from vertical due to the tented board angle, so that effectively puts the actual foot closer below that inboard corner you pointed out.

    Note that the nearside inner leg needs to be slightly longer than the farside leg, since they're different distances from the outboard edge, but this is easily adjustable thanks to the screws. If one wanted only a little bit of tenting, using the standoffs alone would probably suffice, though you'd probably need to add a short screw to the nearside leg to lengthen it slightly; the screws provided with the standoffs would probably suffice for this, though I haven't tested it.

    As for anti-skid feet, I'm thinking that hardware/auto-parts stores may have push-in rubber bumpers with a shallow hole in the middle (normally used to press them into a blind hole) large enough to fit around the screw cap, or just get a small rubber stopper and drill a hole partway into it yourself.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Tue, 23 April 2013, 19:41:39
    [attachimg=1]
    I finished the tray for my ErgoDox. I was going to use a black sheet metal cover for the modified Expert Mouse but when I'd glance at it it reminded me a little too much of Darth Vader. I decided to go with the Executive look. The mahogany doesn't match my desk but I've had a yearning to work with it for some time.
    [attachimg=2]
    I was surprised at how comfortable it is to use from my lap. The ergonomics are great and it rests solidly and comfortably in my lap. I'll mount it to the desk eventually but I have to troubleshoot a problem first. I'm having trouble getting the scroll wheel to work. I wonder if Kensington will honor the warranty? If anyone has ever modified an E.M. I'd like to hear from you.
    [attachimg=3]
    This is a view from the monitor. Sorry about the out of focus pictures.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lunartuna on Tue, 23 April 2013, 19:45:40
    Gad damn man that's amazing!  :eek:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 23 April 2013, 19:51:05
    (Attachment Link)
    I finished the tray for my ErgoDox. I was going to use a black sheet metal cover for the modified Expert Mouse but when I'd glance at it it reminded me a little too much of Darth Vader. I decided to go with the Executive look. The mahogany doesn't match my desk but I've had a yearning to work with it for some time.
    (Attachment Link)
    I was surprised at how comfortable it is to use from my lap. The ergonomics are great and it rests solidly and comfortably in my lap. I'll mount it to the desk eventually but I have to troubleshoot a problem first. I'm having trouble getting the scroll wheel to work. I wonder if Kensington will honor the warranty? If anyone has ever modified an E.M. I'd like to hear from you.
    (Attachment Link)
    This is a view from the monitor. Sorry about the out of focus pictures.

    i am speechless,

    there are some impressive creations on geekhack and you have joined the club

    sorry to hear the scrollwheel is not working but it is sexy nonetheless

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Tue, 23 April 2013, 20:54:26

    i am speechless,

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 23 April 2013, 21:05:06
    downright amazing, kurplop. are you a craftsman by profession, or a hobbyist? that is actually really stunning work, both on the alu case and the support structure.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Tue, 23 April 2013, 21:51:26
    downright amazing, kurplop. are you a craftsman by profession, or a hobbyist? that is actually really stunning work, both on the alu case and the support structure.
    Thanks for all the kind words. As most of you know, when we talk to outsiders about our enthusiasm over our "silly" keyboards we're often met with blank stares.  It's great to have a community like this that can appreciate our passion.

    I am a remodeling contractor in Southern California. My small company does three to five projects a year. Primarily kitchens and additions. We do most of the trades in house including cabinetry. I started doing it as a hobby and it grew into a business. I still love the work and my customers but the oppressive  regulations are a frustration.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 24 April 2013, 00:07:27
    WOW! Sordna linked me to this since I'm out of touch these days.

    Outstanding work and I'm very impressed with your design. Very impressed.

    Ok, here it goes, typical Input Nirvana questions:

    Did you take any pics of the mouse work interior?
    Is it possible to get a few pics with hand placement, one on keyboard another on the mousing?
    Any close-up pics of the sides of the keyboard (front, side, back, under)?
    How did you decide the placement of the Ergo-halves?
    Any pics of the unit during construction?
    How did you decide on the keyboard profiles/design? I like the detail.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreadwyrm on Wed, 24 April 2013, 01:40:40
    Shiiiiiiit kurplop, that is beyond epic...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 24 April 2013, 03:04:01
    Now that is a touch of class, Kurplop!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: phetto on Wed, 24 April 2013, 03:11:07
    (Attachment Link)
    I finished the tray for my ErgoDox. I was going to use a black sheet metal cover for the modified Expert Mouse but when I'd glance at it it reminded me a little too much of Darth Vader. I decided to go with the Executive look. The mahogany doesn't match my desk but I've had a yearning to work with it for some time.
    (Attachment Link)
    I was surprised at how comfortable it is to use from my lap. The ergonomics are great and it rests solidly and comfortably in my lap. I'll mount it to the desk eventually but I have to troubleshoot a problem first. I'm having trouble getting the scroll wheel to work. I wonder if Kensington will honor the warranty? If anyone has ever modified an E.M. I'd like to hear from you.
    (Attachment Link)
    This is a view from the monitor. Sorry about the out of focus pictures.

    You sir, just won the allstar prize. This is the best thing I have ever seen. Best mod EVUUUUR
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 24 April 2013, 03:12:23
    What they said. mmmm, woody :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dfj on Wed, 24 April 2013, 09:09:41
    Kerplop - beautiful build!

      What did you finish the wood with?

     I've had trouble just keeping steel protected on the high wear parts of keyboards, nvm Mahogany...

    For my mousepad I went with end-grain maple, and I need to touch it up to keep it slick every 3-4 months (yay scrapers) I use (mostly because I have it) granite wax for countertops.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 24 April 2013, 13:45:38
    Kerplop - beautiful build!

      What did you finish the wood with?

     I've had trouble just keeping steel protected on the high wear parts of keyboards, nvm Mahogany...

    For my mousepad I went with end-grain maple, and I need to touch it up to keep it slick every 3-4 months (yay scrapers) I use (mostly because I have it) granite wax for countertops.

    Good observations. I've had wood finishes that deteriorate and get gummy and dirty from hand oils. I decided to use about five coats of Varathane water borne floor finish over a shellac based sanding sealer. The sealer was used primarily to set the color of the wood because the water based products don't seem to enhance the color on dark woods as well. After sanding I rubbed the finish out with a clay bar (used for car finishes) and then used a paste wax and buffed out to a shine.
    I'm hoping the durability of the floor finish plus the wax will maintain the finish. We'll see.

    WOW! Sordna linked me to this since I'm out of touch these days.

    Outstanding work and I'm very impressed with your design. Very impressed.

    Ok, here it goes, typical Input Nirvana questions:

    Did you take any pics of the mouse work interior?
    Is it possible to get a few pics with hand placement, one on keyboard another on the mousing?
    Any close-up pics of the sides of the keyboard (front, side, back, under)?
    How did you decide the placement of the Ergo-halves?
    Any pics of the unit during construction?
    How did you decide on the keyboard profiles/design? I like the detail.

    Talk about WOW! To be noticed by the two Guru's of Kinesis modifications is quite an honor.

    I hope to start a new thread on my project so as not to take up too much space on this one but a few quick responses here.

    You realize of course that showing the unfinished underside of my keyboard is like showing up for an underwear modeling gig before I had time to shave my back, but here goes. :-[ 
    [attach=1]

    Sorry the pictures are so out of focus. The top button is set for click and the thumb falls naturally to it. The left button is set for right click and it's very easy to get to. The others are set for forward and back in OSX and middle click in Windows.  They are not as easy to reach while using the ball but that's the beauty of a center mount trackball where you can assist with the other hand.
    [attach=2][attach=3]

    One final picture here of the mockup I made to help me determine the placement of things. I used hot glue to make a "hinge" and two wood scraps to find the best tenting angle for me. The amount of splaying and separation between units was predetermined by how my arms naturally lay.

    [attach=4]

    I have more pictures I will post soon in another thread.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: haskellelephant on Wed, 24 April 2013, 14:15:29
    Wow, that mod is rediculous! Me and some friends of mine have been
    admiring that thing all day!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:10:23
    kurplop, that is some beautiful craftsmanship. Such nice custom work. We need more crafty people like you on this board :). You mentioned you were also have dexterity for metal work?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:15:21
    I built this about 2 weeks ago for someone, so here is the video of the process. It's a little more detailed than the instructions and video on massdrop, so it might help if you're building for the first time. There is an INDEX in the video description to skip around to certain steps.


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:23:01
    I built this about 2 weeks ago for someone, so here is the video of the process. It's a little more detailed than the instructions and video on massdrop, so it might help if you're building for the first time. There is an INDEX in the video description to skip around to certain steps.

    Very well done! MassDrop should link to this on their assembly page, right now it's just a collection of artsy nondescript photos and vaguely worded instructions...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:30:41
    I built this about 2 weeks ago for someone, so here is the video of the process. It's a little more detailed than the instructions and video on massdrop, so it might help if you're building for the first time. There is an INDEX in the video description to skip around to certain steps.


    I want that syringe/heat gun combo. How much did it cost ya?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:49:39
    ~$300 for the hot air station, solder paste was ~$15. You can get a decent hot air gun for ~$80, but it's really not needed if all you do is keyboards. There won't be many opportunities to use hot air.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Wed, 24 April 2013, 17:55:27
    MassDrop instructions were very vauge
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 24 April 2013, 18:19:10
    MassDrop instructions were very vauge

    i didn't have a problem with them but i can see where you are coming from.

    thanks for the video WFD, i bet you if you contacted massdrop they would put that video on the instructions page, it would really help those both in the unfinished round 1 and the upcoming round 2.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 24 April 2013, 20:41:41
    So, I haven't even got around to building mine yet, but when I went to Radio Shack to get some soldering supplies tonight, I stumbled across a promising solution to the desire for tenting. I found these PCB standoffs, which are basically just coupling nuts:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102848

    As it turns out, they're M3 threaded, the same as the screws supplied for the layer case, so they can be used to fashion adjustable legs on the inboard end. Better yet, they're attractively chromed and come in a set of 4 for just $1.99! Use the standoffs instead of the nuts provided with the kit, add a couple additional M3 screws of desired length and adjust to taste, then use the provided nuts as locknuts.

    It just occurred to me it might be a good idea to add a washer between the standoff and the acrylic (and maybe on top as well, between the acrylic and screw head) to better distribute stress and avoid potentially cracking the acrylic due to the lever effect of the long legs. The M3 screws provided with the ErgoDox kit are barely long enough to fully engage the provided nuts, and the standoff threading is slightly countersunk, so adding washers would reduce thread engagement even further, thus it's prolly best to get some slightly longer M3 screws to go through the case at those points, keeping the provided screws to use as feet.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Wed, 24 April 2013, 21:47:08
    I built this about 2 weeks ago for someone, so here is the video of the process. It's a little more detailed than the instructions and video on massdrop, so it might help if you're building for the first time. There is an INDEX in the video description to skip around to certain steps.


    I noticed in the vid you did not solder 3 of the pins on the I/O expander - intentional?  Great vid and I have it bookmarked for when my kit shows up! :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 24 April 2013, 21:50:35
    I built this about 2 weeks ago for someone, so here is the video of the process. It's a little more detailed than the instructions and video on massdrop, so it might help if you're building for the first time. There is an INDEX in the video description to skip around to certain steps.


    WFD is being very modest when he says its 'a little' more detailed than what massdrop has. That's my other ergodox kit he's working on (I decided to send one off to a pro, just in case I failed on mine :D), so I'm a happy camper; those who'd already built their kits would know that's an absolutely perfect assembly job he's done on the kit and makes it look so much easier than it really is. Massdrop should really put this up as a reference for those who hadn't started on their kits yet.

    @kurplop: I know I've said it already, but that tray is crazy awesome. After two weeks with my ergodox, I'm finding that this is as near the perfect keyboard as I can find (like Glod, I'm very much in love with my ergodox.) Your tray makes me want to build a similar one that houses a wireless touchpad like the logitech t650, but I wouldn't even know where to start on one of these.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Wed, 24 April 2013, 23:34:40
    WFD, you got a link to the soundtrack? That ****'s tight

    Also, I'd like to know what kind of soldering iron/station you're using (mainly what that little tube that looks like it's attached to it is). Is that also part of the hot-air thingamajig?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Wed, 24 April 2013, 23:49:47
    Gareth Emery – Sanctuary

    Nice video, WFD.  I didn't have any trouble with the instructions, but I agree they are rather light on important details that could easily trip-up a beginner.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zifle on Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:21:37
    I changed the led fuctionality, to display which layer I'm on, rather than the default num, scr, caps.

    I'ts a simple hack, to disable the default, and just modify the push/pop functions, to light up the leds:


    Remember to compile with the right layout!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Thu, 25 April 2013, 11:24:59
    im more curious on how to program the light on the teesy board to show which layer i am on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zello on Thu, 25 April 2013, 15:23:24
    I was in on the last buy and decided that I would like to have someone else build it.   Any recommendations and cost?
    Z
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 25 April 2013, 16:41:20
    I just got a wild thought... Has anyone who got the acrylic case considered to use white nylon bolts instead of bolts of metal? I think that would look more "spacey"... especially with white keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 25 April 2013, 23:26:40
    im more curious on how to program the light on the teensy board to show which layer i am on.

    Here you go, I posted a patch to do that earlier in this very thread:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844285#msg844285
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TD22057 on Fri, 26 April 2013, 22:14:37
    I'm not actually building an ErgoDox (but they do look fantastic) - I'm trying to use the firmware and wiring diagrams to learn enough to design my own keyboard.  Could someone tell me what the capacitor on the I/O extender is connected to and what it's use is?  I was looking at the wiring diagram Firmware circuit diagram (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg) (in PNG graphics form here (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/TD22057/media/circuit-diagram_zps4aad57ef.png.html)) and it doesn't show it at all.

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 27 April 2013, 02:19:08
    The capacitor on the I/O expander is a decoupling capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor), connecting Vcc and GND on the left hand side.  I'm afraid I don't understand the subtleties, but I gather it's there to help filter any noise that may come from the right hand side over the power lines, and help keep voltage from dipping as quickly if the left hand side power consumption suddenly spikes for some reason.

    Empirically, it doesn't seem to be necessary, but I've heard that from a design standpoint it's a good idea :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TD22057 on Sat, 27 April 2013, 09:46:15
    The capacitor on the I/O expander is a decoupling capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor), connecting Vcc and GND on the left hand side.  I'm afraid I don't understand the subtleties, but I gather it's there to help filter any noise that may come from the right hand side over the power lines, and help keep voltage from dipping as quickly if the left hand side power consumption suddenly spikes for some reason.

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Sat, 27 April 2013, 23:14:58
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Photekq on Sat, 27 April 2013, 23:26:32
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.
    Very close to 1.5mm for costar stabilisers.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 28 April 2013, 02:16:56
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.

    I assume they are the same as the aluminum.  Layer one and five are 1/8" and the three inner layers are 3/16" each.
    Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Sun, 28 April 2013, 07:23:52
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.

    From the Massdrop staff in the comments of the latest GB:

    Jasper  @ cpf  Apr. 15, 2013
    @cpf the top/bottom sheet is 3/32" and the middle sheets are 3/16". the bottom-most middle sheet (layer 4 according to Step 22 of https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly) can be made as thick as you want, though 3/16" is around as thin as you should go for sufficient capacitor clearance.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Sun, 28 April 2013, 07:55:57
    Thanks all for the replies.  :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Sun, 28 April 2013, 11:13:47
    Don't now if this was already posted, but once in a while my ErgoDox seems to turn off. Once I detach the mini USB cable and connect again it goes on again.

    Anyone know what can be possible going wrong?

    EDIT: Well, I discovered what was wrong. I was accidentally pressing the key to change layers. Needless to say I am felling like an idiot know.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Sun, 28 April 2013, 17:45:51
    Will costar stabilizers work with the thumb keys?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 28 April 2013, 17:46:08
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.

    From the Massdrop staff in the comments of the latest GB:

    Jasper  @ cpf  Apr. 15, 2013
    @cpf the top/bottom sheet is 3/32" and the middle sheets are 3/16". the bottom-most middle sheet (layer 4 according to Step 22 of https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly) can be made as thick as you want, though 3/16" is around as thin as you should go for sufficient capacitor clearance.
    FWIW, I reckon an aluminum mounting plate could prolly be just 3/32-1/8" (2-3mm) thick, which would allow more clearance between the plate and PCB, allowing the use of top-mounted thru-hole diodes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Sun, 28 April 2013, 20:00:28
    I have two dead keys on my Dox, anybody know what could be know causes/ solutions? I am pretty sure they worked before.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Mon, 29 April 2013, 02:24:34
    I have two dead keys on my Dox, anybody know what could be know causes/ solutions? I am pretty sure they worked before.

    Probably bad soldered diode or switch, after some manipulating it can loss contact. If you have multimeter you can try to test contacts on diode and on switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 29 April 2013, 02:33:04
    I have two dead keys on my Dox, anybody know what could be know causes/ solutions? I am pretty sure they worked before.

    Probably cold joint on the switch or diode. Reflow those 4 switch pins and diodes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 29 April 2013, 07:51:53
    WFD, thanks for making the ErgoDox assembly video. You should be a neurosurgeon with those hands. Mine hands shake more than my old Rambler with the bent front wheel.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 29 April 2013, 17:45:16
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.

    From the Massdrop staff in the comments of the latest GB:

    Jasper  @ cpf  Apr. 15, 2013
    @cpf the top/bottom sheet is 3/32" and the middle sheets are 3/16". the bottom-most middle sheet (layer 4 according to Step 22 of https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly) can be made as thick as you want, though 3/16" is around as thin as you should go for sufficient capacitor clearance.
    FWIW, I reckon an aluminum mounting plate could prolly be just 3/32-1/8" (2-3mm) thick, which would allow more clearance between the plate and PCB, allowing the use of top-mounted thru-hole diodes.

    Someone on the Massdrop discussion thread (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2/talk?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Massdrop:%20Discussion%20Update) looked up the Cherry MX specs:

    Quote
    Seeing the cherry mx plate mount specifications, the mounting plate (no 3) has 0.06 ± 0.004 inch thickness.

    From the top of the plate to the top of the PCB you have 0.197 inch. As the PCBs are designed for PCB mount as well, and the PCBs for that should have 0.06 inch, I'd take an educated guess that layer no 2 has 0.197 inch.

    Obviously, the acrylic mounting plates are far thicker than that spec just for the sake of strength, and indeed, the switches don't properly latch into the plate because of this (the latching tabs don't engage the bottom face of the plate). Metal being stronger than acrylic can be a lot thinner, so you may be able to meet the Cherry spec with 1/16" (1.5mm) aluminum sheet, or even thinner steel, tin, or brass.

    Hm, brass... steampunk ErgoDox, anyone?  ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 29 April 2013, 21:01:46
    Does anyone know how think the acrylic plates are?  Thinking about making one out of aluminum with the same dimensions as the acrylic.

    From the Massdrop staff in the comments of the latest GB:

    Jasper  @ cpf  Apr. 15, 2013
    @cpf the top/bottom sheet is 3/32" and the middle sheets are 3/16". the bottom-most middle sheet (layer 4 according to Step 22 of https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly)) can be made as thick as you want, though 3/16" is around as thin as you should go for sufficient capacitor clearance.
    FWIW, I reckon an aluminum mounting plate could prolly be just 3/32-1/8" (2-3mm) thick, which would allow more clearance between the plate and PCB, allowing the use of top-mounted thru-hole diodes.

    The plate that holds the switch must be between 1/16" and 3/16". It can't be thicker, otherwise the switches won't sit flush on the PCB, but rather blocked by the acrylic. You can go with aluminum or steel to make it thinner, however if you do, then the middle layer (right below the layer that the switches are mounted into) must be thicker to keep the PCB elevated by the same height. If the PCB is too low, then the switches and solder joint hits the bottom layer acrylic.




    WFD, thanks for making the ErgoDox assembly video. You should be a neurosurgeon with those hands. Mine hands shake more than my old Rambler with the bent front wheel.

    My hands are relatively steady unless I'm really hungry  ::)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: regack on Tue, 30 April 2013, 08:07:23
    The plate that holds the switch must be between 1/16" and 3/16". It can't be thicker, otherwise the switches won't sit flush on the PCB, but rather blocked by the acrylic. You can go with aluminum or steel to make it thinner, however if you do, then the middle layer (right below the layer that the switches are mounted into) must be thicker to keep the PCB elevated by the same height. If the PCB is too low, then the switches and solder joint hits the bottom layer acrylic.


    So make Layer 2 thicker or split layer 3 into 3a (Layer3 thickness minus 1/16in) and 3b (1/16in plate).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Unix Guru on Tue, 30 April 2013, 14:43:38
    LEDs on the left (MCP23018) side!  :cool:

    [attach=1]

    Sorry for the blurry pic.  Right now they only light up at init and go out after a second so not enough time to get a good snapshot.

    I mounted them so they show out the inner side.  The MCP23018 will only sink current so it would require hacking the PCB to get LEDs to work under the keys.

    Here is the modification.  Resistors for LEDa and LEDb are in the same place as the Teensy side (they go to pins 9/GPB6 and 10/GPB7).  LEDc resistor is in the shrink wrap going to pin 27 (GPA7).  The 3 red wires are +5V.  Resistors are all 330.  LEDs are LTL-433 (flat) series.

    [attach=2]

    They work a bit differently than the Teensy LEDs.  State changes are not immediate.  The LED settings are piggybacked on to the normal traffic going to the MCP23018.

    I've attached the diffs against partial-rewrite branch.  All they do is flash on during init.  If I can figure out where the "current layer" is remembered I will probably use them to show the layer.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 30 April 2013, 14:55:39
    Ok. that's pretty sweet. Might have to try it myself.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 30 April 2013, 15:24:15
    @Unix Guru
    Nice indeed :-) .  Layer stuff is kept track of here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/exec_key.c.h#L32).

    Edit:
    Though, if it were me, I'd probably define new layer push-pop functions (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/keys.c.h#L101) that called the kb__led__(on|off) functions (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard.h#L42) directly, instead of handling things in the exec_key() function.  Sorry the documentation and such on this branch isn't finished yet.  Glad to see someone using it anyway though :-) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Tue, 30 April 2013, 15:46:31
    LEDs on the left (MCP23018) side!  :cool:

    (Attachment Link)

    Sorry for the blurry pic.  Right now they only light up at init and go out after a second so not enough time to get a good snapshot.

    I mounted them so they show out the inner side.  The MCP23018 will only sink current so it would require hacking the PCB to get LEDs to work under the keys.

    Here is the modification.  Resistors for LEDa and LEDb are in the same place as the Teensy side (they go to pins 9/GPB6 and 10/GPB7).  LEDc resistor is in the shrink wrap going to pin 27 (GPA7).  The 3 red wires are +5V.  Resistors are all 330.  LEDs are LTL-433 (flat) series.

    (Attachment Link)

    They work a bit differently than the Teensy LEDs.  State changes are not immediate.  The LED settings are piggybacked on to the normal traffic going to the MCP23018.

    I've attached the diffs against partial-rewrite branch.  All they do is flash on during init.  If I can figure out where the "current layer" is remembered I will probably use them to show the layer.

    Wow, nice!  I see that 3 pins on the IO expander are not soldered.  I didn't see that in the assembly instructions.  Why are those 3 pins not soldered?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: regack on Tue, 30 April 2013, 15:58:08

    Wow, nice!  I see that 3 pins on the IO expander are not soldered.  I didn't see that in the assembly instructions.  Why are those 3 pins not soldered?

    I don't think you can solder them, there are no pads there.  As far as I can tell they're not used in the design, and not including pads for them frees up a little space for traces in that area where it's pretty tight.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Tue, 30 April 2013, 16:03:01

    Wow, nice!  I see that 3 pins on the IO expander are not soldered.  I didn't see that in the assembly instructions.  Why are those 3 pins not soldered?

    I don't think you can solder them, there are no pads there.  As far as I can tell they're not used in the design, and not including pads for them frees up a little space for traces in that area where it's pretty tight.

    Appreciate the input.  Sometimes that is hard to see in the pictures (part of the 2nd group buy so learning all I can).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 30 April 2013, 20:16:59
    I have a question about the LEDs. Did anyone manage to route the LEDs to the top of the case yet? I find it awkward to have them under keys that have no relation to their function.

    I had the same inclination, so this may be relevant to your interests:
    I'm thinking of swapping the switch-mounted LEDs with their resistors -- i.e., putting the LEDs where their respective resistors would normally go (just to the left of the Teensy) and vice-versa (most likely putting the resistors on the underside of the PCB and soldering them same-side). They're series circuits, so I think it should work, just gotta take care to maintain proper LED polarity (I gather the + leads should point towards the Teensy), and of course some creative bending of the leads will be necessary to accommodate the solder pad spacing on the PCB.

    Another approach I'm considering is leaving the LEDs soldered where they would normally go, but putting them under the PCB (rather than thru the switches) and leaving long enough leads to bend them over to the left edge of the PCB, so when illuminated they would shine into the left edge of the case.

    I've started soldering up my ErgoDox and decided to go for swapping the positions of the LEDs and their resistors, so the LEDs will shine alongside the Teensy. However, I ran into a bit of a snag due to poor foresight on my part, as I'd bent both legs of the LEDs in such a way as to center them between their respective pads and soldered them into place that way; then, only after I soldered the Teensy in place, did I realize the 2 LEDs closest to the Teensy stick up too far, blocking me from inserting the stripped USB plug into the Teensy, and even if I could, those LEDs would wind up buried partially under the USB plug and its leads. :(

    Now I'll have to desolder those and get 2 new LEDs to replace them, this time inserted so the negative (longer) lead goes straight down into the PCB pad, and only bend the positive lead to reach the other pad closest to the Teensy. I can't just reuse the original LEDs, as I'd already clipped their leads down to size after soldering, which leaves the positive lead too short to reach its pad if I wanted to reposition them.

    Also nice to see someone went with the approach of putting the LEDs under the PCB and shining out the inboard side, but putting them on the left hand was a nifty twist on that idea!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 01 May 2013, 00:23:16
    So, I haven't even got around to building mine yet, but when I went to Radio Shack to get some soldering supplies tonight, I stumbled across a promising solution to the desire for tenting. I found these PCB standoffs, which are basically just coupling nuts:
    http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102848

    Nice solution, I got those stands as well as these covers (from Lowe's) to protect my desk:

    Hillman Screw Covers Hinged (http://goo.gl/e2DdU)

    I just need to cut the MD supplied socket screws since the stands don't seem to have enough thread to reduce the tenting to my likings.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 01 May 2013, 01:54:15
    @Unix Guru
    Nice indeed :-) .  Layer stuff is kept track of here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/exec_key.c.h#L32).

    Edit:
    Though, if it were me, I'd probably define new layer push-pop functions (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/keys.c.h#L101) that called the kb__led__(on|off) functions (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard.h#L42) directly, instead of handling things in the exec_key() function.  Sorry the documentation and such on this branch isn't finished yet.  Glad to see someone using it anyway though :-) .

    Wow, so many options! I drive some leds from main.c, another user from lib/key-functions/public/basic.c, unix guru from other places, and now more suggestions :-)  The code is way too flexible, haha.

    By the way, I was able to attach an mp3 in another post (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.msg873706#msg873706) where you can hear how my buzzer for making my cherry reds "clicky" sounds like:

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 01 May 2013, 02:43:00
    FWIW, here's my adapted QWERTY layout:
    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=S49G3K&hash=efa53b6b5b1b12ff866bba7c6026e92d

    I've devised a way to retain an inverted-T cluster of cursor keys in the lower-right corner, which moves /? into IMO a better position for reducing pinky stress among other reasons, along with ' ". The =+ and -_ keys are at the inner top corners for ease of Ctrl-+/- combos (which I commonly use), which also takes them off of pinky duty. I've put an extra Tab on an inner 1.5x key for an easy Alt-Tab with nearly the same hand gesture as on a standard keyboard.

    I've kept the repositioned Shift and Ctrl keys of my TrulyErgonomic, since I'll prolly be keeping the latter for home use at least until the next ErgoDox group buy happens, and switching between standard and row-up Shift/Ctrl positioning is a bit disorienting. After trying both standard and row-up Shift/Ctrl positioning on my TECK, I've concluded that the latter is indeed more comfortable as claimed. I've also added Shift keys on the bottom inner 1.5x keys, to see if that may be practical for thumb shifting.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 01 May 2013, 04:13:54
    I did the same thing with Shift and Ctrl. It seems Truly Ergonomics got that one right. I like your arrow cluster position also.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Unix Guru on Wed, 01 May 2013, 08:32:54

    Wow, nice!  I see that 3 pins on the IO expander are not soldered.  I didn't see that in the assembly instructions.  Why are those 3 pins not soldered?

    I don't think you can solder them, there are no pads there.  As far as I can tell they're not used in the design, and not including pads for them frees up a little space for traces in that area where it's pretty tight.

    Those aren't the pins you're looking for  :)  (for my mod anyway)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Unix Guru on Wed, 01 May 2013, 15:52:04
    LEDs on the left (MCP23018) side!  :cool:

    The twi_read hangs if any of the LEDs in that port are on.  I could temporarily turn them off while scanning but I suppose there is just something I don't understand about configuring the MCP23018.

    I'm also playing with a poor-mans PWM on those LEDs.  Since they are refreshed constantly one could simulate a pseudo-PWM.  Have it working partially but need to polish some more before posting code.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Unix Guru on Thu, 02 May 2013, 10:52:03
    LEDs on the left (MCP23018) side!  :cool:

    The finished code is attached.  Note that it is for the partial-rewrite branch, not the trunk code.  Similar changes could be made to the trunk.

    The left LEDs are named 11, 12, 13 from the top down.  Brightness can be set although 0 is nowhere close to off since the flicker gets to be too much.  They cycle during power up just like the ones on the right side - at full brightness because they can't be dimmed during power up.

    The Teensy LED is also enabled (named 6) and winks during power up.  I used it to flash debug messages  :)

    Lastly, I've used the left LEDs to indicate the current layer.  This can be disabled by commenting out the define of ENABLE_LEFT_LED_LAYERS in the makefile.

    Enjoy.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 02 May 2013, 14:17:51
    I finally got my scroll wheel working and am using my ErgoDox. I'm planning some changes in my layout and I noticed that some people have GUI keys and it occurred to  me that I don't have a clue what they do. Can someone explain their function, or is it one of those "If you have to ask you don't need to know"?

    On a side note, as I began typing, I soon became aware that I neglected to include an apostrophe in my layout. I'm using the old keyboard on the side just for apostrophe's until I download the changes. :-[

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 02 May 2013, 15:44:49
    ... and I noticed that some people have GUI keys ... Can someone explain their function, or is it one of those "If you have to ask you don't need to know"?

    The GUI keys are "windows" keys on Windows, and "command" keys on Macs - and "GUI" keys in the USB spec :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 02 May 2013, 15:50:08
    ... and I noticed that some people have GUI keys ... Can someone explain their function, or is it one of those "If you have to ask you don't need to know"?

    The GUI keys are "windows" keys on Windows, and "command" keys on Macs - and "GUI" keys in the USB spec :-)
    Ah! Thanks for enlightening me.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Thu, 02 May 2013, 18:34:08
    is anyone working on modding the pcb to move the thumb cluster closer?
    I have been trying to accustom myself to the current size but it is proving to be difficult :( (and I have big hands!!!)
    It seems modifying the Kicad files posted on Ergodox.org (http://ergodox.org/Downloads/ErgoDox_PCB_Designed_by_pbiphany.zip) can be a good start but I do not have any experience with PCB design.

    I know this means changing the case layers but I can help with the bill to prototype a PCB and also print the layers since I have access to a 3D printer.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bearcat on Thu, 02 May 2013, 18:48:55
    listboss: If you're going to move the thumb cluster closer & have a 3d printer, i recommend just printing the case directly & hand-wiring a version first to make sure you like where the keys are.  It doesn't take that long.

    BTW, thanks to everyone for their great work on this keyboard & making the kit a reality; I love the ergodox and have really enjoyed building it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 03 May 2013, 10:34:55
    It seems modifying the Kicad files posted on Ergodox.org (http://ergodox.org/Downloads/ErgoDox_PCB_Designed_by_pbiphany.zip) can be a good start but I do not have any experience with PCB design.
    I have had lots of ideas of using the existing PCB, cut it here and there and place switches in new locations... I wrote them down, but have edited them away because nobody cares anyway.

    Anyway, if you do edit the layout for a new run of keyboards (ErgoDox 2.0), I have a few suggestions:
    * Please fix the solder hole positions for the outermost columns. There was supposed to be the option of 1-unit keys here, but switches will not fit because the solder holes are wrong.
    * Don't just shift the position of the thumb clusters. Rotate them a bit also.
    * Add support for 1×2 shift keys in outer/bottom corners like on the Maltron.
    * If I had designed the keyboard, I would have offset the columns a bit more, especially the pinky columns.
    * If possible, place all traces between main keyboard half and corresponding thumb cluster together ... with two parallel rows of soldering holes. So that if someone wants to cut away the thumb cluster and place it at an angle, he could reconnect the traces with a ribbon cable.
    * Third 1×2 thumb key in each thumb cluster next to the others.
    * Option of using a 1×2 key for the lowermost vertical index finger keys. You don't have to add switch positions, just avoid placing a bolt hole that would be in the way for stabilisers.
    * Make the switch mounting plates 1.5 mm thick, please. Not thicker. If you have a PCB, then they don't need to be thicker -- it is only there to keep the switches from twisting.
    * Peer review of the blueprints, to catch bugs like we had with with stabilisers and one-unit keys, ...
    * Support for PCB-mounted Cherry stabilizers. (There should be support for them, but the PCBs don't have them... and you can't drill the holes because there are two leads is in the way. Moving them would not be a problem.)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 03 May 2013, 17:29:33
    I modified a couple of layers in Litster's acrylic case design for  1-unit keys in the outermost columns.
    The attached zip file contains only the layers that I have modified, and with different file names, so it should be safe to merge this archive into the same directory tree as the other files.

    As always, I take not responsibility for correctness or anything else. Use on your own risk! :)

    However, the PCB design has bugs in it that make it necessary to either drill in the PCBs somewhat or to bend some switch pins in weird angles to make the switches fit in the 1U positions.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Sat, 04 May 2013, 11:00:19
    Anyone knows how to recompile the source code? At the moment once that I run the "make" command and the .eep and .hex file are created i can't make any further changes, meaning that each time I invoke the "make" command again nothing happens. Hope that I was clear enough.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sat, 04 May 2013, 12:50:57
    I had a similar problem and couldn't "make clean". However if you put a ".gitignore" file in the src directory with these contents:
    *.eep
    *.elf
    *.hex
    *.map
    *.o
    *.o.dep

    then you should be able to do "make clean" and "make"
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Sat, 04 May 2013, 16:15:16
    @bearcat: Thanks for the tip, I also love the keyboard but the thumb clusters need to be modified (at least for my hands)

    Anyway, if you do edit the layout for a new run of keyboards (ErgoDox 2.0), I have a few suggestions:
    I do not have expertise to modify and run an ErgoDox 2.0 but some of your ideas are really intriguing.
    However as I said, I will help as much as I can to at least have a new thumb cluster layout.

    I am downloading your stuff now...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Sat, 04 May 2013, 16:41:09
    I had a similar problem and couldn't "make clean". However if you put a ".gitignore" file in the src directory with these contents:
    *.eep
    *.elf
    *.hex
    *.map
    *.o
    *.o.dep

    then you should be able to do "make clean" and "make"

    Well, I created a .gitignore file in the scr directory and try to do a "make clean". Here is the result:

    git clean -dXf  # remove ignored files and directories
    fatal: Not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /home)
    Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
    make: *** [clean] Error 128

    I am only using Linux for a couple of months ago so i have no idea what is going wrong...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sat, 04 May 2013, 22:11:02
    You are lacking a .git subdirectory in the parent directory of src ... you are probably working off the firmware from massdrop site. You need to do this:

    git clone git://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware.git

    to download the firmware properly from github. Then edit src/makefile and change:
    git clean -dX
    to:
    git clean -dXf

    Then make and "make clean" will work.
    Any firmware you download from massdrop's generator, merge into your git clone directory, so you always have the other bits in place. Actually massdrop's generator only changes one or two files when you generate a custom layout, so you can just copy them over.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Sun, 05 May 2013, 04:34:40
    I have a weird problem: I cannot compile on my PC.
    I always get the error message "Interrupt/Exception caught <code = 0x00000fd, addr = 0x4217b3>"
    It's not the code, compiles fine on my laptop. Same environment (W8 64bit) with WinAVR.
    Any ideas?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Moosecraft on Sun, 05 May 2013, 04:36:46
    Does anyone play starcraft 2 with an ergodox?
    I think it would be quite nice if you could have ctrl on your thumb instead of pinky when playing.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Sun, 05 May 2013, 06:42:19
    You are lacking a .git subdirectory in the parent directory of src ... you are probably working off the firmware from massdrop site. You need to do this:

    git clone git://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware.git

    to download the firmware properly from github. Then edit src/makefile and change:
    git clean -dX
    to:
    git clean -dXf

    Then make and "make clean" will work.
    Any firmware you download from massdrop's generator, merge into your git clone directory, so you always have the other bits in place. Actually massdrop's generator only changes one or two files when you generate a custom layout, so you can just copy them over.

    Works like a charm. Thank you
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Sun, 05 May 2013, 10:26:11
    Does anyone play starcraft 2 with an ergodox?
    I think it would be quite nice if you could have ctrl on your thumb instead of pinky when playing.
    I plan on doing so.

    An ErgoDox implementation of theCore (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878) would be very comfortable and efficient. I currently use theCore now on a regular keyboard (low masters Terran) and the ErgoDox will fix every problem I have with the layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 05 May 2013, 14:38:17
    That is one hell of an interesting link, jagriff, thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 05 May 2013, 14:52:59
    I have a weird problem: I cannot compile on my PC.
    I always get the error message "Interrupt/Exception caught <code = 0x00000fd, addr = 0x4217b3>"
    It's not the code, compiles fine on my laptop. Same environment (W8 64bit) with WinAVR.
    Any ideas?

    That is weird.  Aside from the obvious things (rebooting, reinstalling WinAVR, switching to linux, checking the WinAVR version numbers, ...) I really dunno... :/ .  Interesting that it would work on one and not the other.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Moosecraft on Sun, 05 May 2013, 14:54:18
    Ye because I am very slow pressing keys with my thumb compared to my pinky I  would think it would suit a lot of people pretty nicely.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Mon, 06 May 2013, 11:41:24
    I plan on doing so.

    An ErgoDox implementation of theCore (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878) would be very comfortable and efficient. I currently use theCore now on a regular keyboard (low masters Terran) and the ErgoDox will fix every problem I have with the layout.

    I do this! In fact, having used this layout for a long time, it was the biggest reason I was excited for the ergodox. I'm lefty, so I put Alt/Shift/Ctrl along the bottom of my right thumb cluster, and the matrix layout works like a charm. One thing I found a little difficult to adjust to in switching from staggered-row layout to ergodox layout is that the staggered-row layout has shift positioned above the ctrl key, whereas the ergodox has them side by side (unless you made a custom case and used the 80-key layout, in which case I'm envious). In practice my brain gets a little confused and I end up using the wrong modifier when I want to snap to a camera or add to a group. But, in general, I think it'll turn out great.

    Also, this might be considered TheCore heresy, but I made some modifications that I'm really proud of that have helped my ability to micro many groups together--I moved the macro control groups up a row, along with the keys for upgrades, while keeping unit control groups and unit abilities closer to the bottom. Also, I collected things closer together, although I don't have ergonomics research to prove greater efficiency or anything. But, coincidentally, I made an explanatory image to explain this to a friend of mine last night: http://i.imgur.com/yasZvHa.png
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 06 May 2013, 16:03:36
    I have been toying with the idea of either bending my second set of ErgoDox pcb's to curve down at the thumb clusters or cutting the thumb clusters from the rest and soldering jumpers to reconnect the circuits in a new position. What kind of trouble should I anticipate? 

    I can pretty easily bend them down about 1/2"out of plane at the cluster tip. Will that have an affect on the integrity of the pcb?
     
    If I cut the pcb, can I just trace the conductor back to the nearest soldering points and run jumpers to reconnect? Would I need to insulate the circuit boards at the cut line? If so with what?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 06 May 2013, 16:48:46
    I have been toying with the idea of either bending my second set of ErgoDox pcb's to curve down at the thumb clusters or cutting the thumb clusters from the rest and soldering jumpers to reconnect the circuits in a new position. What kind of trouble should I anticipate?
    I have also been toying with ideas for mods, but none that required breaking any trace on the PCB.
    The first is moving the big thumb keys down a step and placing a new switch where the PCB now has a bolt hole. I would only need to cut away some in-between the hole and the edge of the PCB to make room for the switch's pins. The big drawback is that the new switch's key could only be 1.5 units big or smaller. Another drawback would be that Costar-style stabilizers could not be used for the large keys.

    This is a draft of my intended plate design (right side only, but left side would be analogous). I made it in QCad with Litster's plate as a starting point.
    [attachimg=1]

    Edit:
    I think that there might be room on the PCB for drilling to fit extra 1u thumb key between the thumb cluster and the alphabetic keys, and without breaking any traces. As with the idea above, the new thumbkey would overlap the key under 'M'/''V'.
    [attachimg=2]

    (ps. I intend to use sculpted key caps scavenged from a keyboard. That is why there are no 1.5 pinky keys and the big vertical index-finger key is 1×2.)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Tue, 07 May 2013, 02:02:10
    Findecandor: I definitely like the direction you're going. The key on the bottom row that you eliminated is probably the one that I use least, in all honesty, and the thumb is far more comfortable hitting keys close to the hand or even slightly underneath than it is reaching far out to the side.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 07 May 2013, 14:43:48
    I am leaning towards getting a pair of plates made with the layout below. I think this would be the most reachable thumbkey layout. The outermost thumb key can not have Costar-style stabilisers.
    [attachimg=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Tue, 07 May 2013, 14:54:45
    One thing I still don't understand, even with the current design: why the large keys for thumbs? All our lives we used our thumbs against 1x tall spacebars; why change now? You could even fit a second key there instead of a 2x tall. In fact if the ergodox case supported it I would have used the 80 key layout myself.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bearcat on Tue, 07 May 2013, 15:00:13
    bisl, seconded.

    I don't understand why the tilt; if you look at suka's designs, he very quickly discarded the angled thumb-cluster in exchange for having an extra thumb button.  In my prototypes as well i found no real difference.

    As for the 1x vs. 2x height thumbkeys, i went with 1.5 and found it makes it easier for chording.  not to mention you get a lot of 1.5 & 1.25 mod keys anyway with the various sets you get...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 07 May 2013, 15:00:50
    If I had made the keyboard, I would have have used 1u thumbkeys in a semicircle. I am trying to approximate that by using large thumbkeys, where the outermost is offset. I recon that I will only hit the tip of it, which is why it would need stabilisers.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OrangeJewce on Tue, 07 May 2013, 17:14:57
    One thing I still don't understand, even with the current design: why the large keys for thumbs? All our lives we used our thumbs against 1x tall spacebars; why change now? You could even fit a second key there instead of a 2x tall. In fact if the ergodox case supported it I would have used the 80 key layout myself.

    Because it is uncomfortable at least IMO to use the thumb tip when actuating the spacebar etc. I would much rather use the thumb joint and tip together, which requires greater than 1u.

    Cheers,
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 02:29:12
    I am leaning towards getting a pair of plates made with the layout below. I think this would be the most reachable thumbkey layout. The outermost thumb key can not have Costar-style stabilisers.
    (Attachment Link)

    I am using the leftmost key on the bottom row to quickly push/pop layers with my thumb. So I am interested in keeping those.
    Have you done any drilling on your current board? Did it not give you the desired result and that's why you are thinking of making a new PCB?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Wed, 08 May 2013, 07:34:42
    I have another question concerning the ErgoDox.
    I usually have the two halves of the keyboard quite close together. So I would really like to use a shorter cable to connect them.
    Can I just use any cable with stereo jack or does it have to be a specific one?
    Title: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Wed, 08 May 2013, 07:42:49
    I have another question concerning the ErgoDox.
    I usually have the two halves of the keyboard quite close together. So I would really like to use a shorter cable to connect them.
    Can I just use any cable with stereo jack or does it have to be a specific one?

    Needs to be TRRS - 4 conductors instead of the regular 3 or 2.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 08 May 2013, 07:43:00
    you need a trrs connector. The normal stereo jack would be a trs connector, which wouldn't work with the ergodox (I've tried).

    What you can do is to cut off the excess length, resolder the cables to the connector. Might as well take the chance to sleeve it while you're at it. BUT I wouldn't recommend doing it on your only cable if you're not confident about it. It's a pretty easy job, but you don't want to screw up and have no cable to use with your ergodox.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wasabah on Wed, 08 May 2013, 07:54:36
    Ok, thanks! Can't find a short one online.. (Germany)
    :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:01:30
    I am using the leftmost key on the bottom row to quickly push/pop layers with my thumb. So I am interested in keeping those.
    Well, the mod would in effect just move that key slightly to the left.
    I am not making a new PCB, just thinking of how to best to use the existing PCB. I had planned from the start to build my own case, use sculpted key caps and use PCB-mounting of switches, but then I noticed that I would need a plate anyway if I want 1u keys in the outermost columns, so I will be making a pair of plates.

    Have you done any drilling on your current board?
    I have drilled my right one, using a dremel tool. I realized that I should really use a proper drill press when drilling the left one. Because the new pinholes are through the ESD/grounding planes, I will also need to lacquer the pinholes to avoid a short-circuit. A plate will be necessary for keeping the switch in place.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:49:04
    I am using the leftmost key on the bottom row to quickly push/pop layers with my thumb. So I am interested in keeping those.
    Well, the mod would in effect just move that key slightly to the left.
    I am not making a new PCB, just thinking of how to best to use the existing PCB. I had planned from the start to build my own case, use sculpted key caps and use PCB-mounting of switches, but then I noticed that I would need a plate anyway if I want 1u keys in the outermost columns, so I will be making a pair of plates.

    Have you done any drilling on your current board?
    I have drilled my right one, using a dremel tool. I realized that I should really use a proper drill press when drilling the left one. Because the new pinholes are through the ESD/grounding planes, I will also need to lacquer the pinholes to avoid a short-circuit. A plate will be necessary for keeping the switch in place.

    Would you mind sharing a picture of your board in its current state?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 08 May 2013, 16:24:18
    Would you mind sharing a picture of your board in its current state?
    Not at all. Not pretty, though. Late at night now, so sorry about the poor lighting.
    The drill holes are so ugly because I tried first to grind off some of the the ESD plane around the holes. I should just have let it be, and paint it.
    [attachimg=1]
    BTW, it appears that a 1.25 key fits in the new key position.  :D

    Another problem I have now.. is sourcing the I/O expander. I can't find it in Sweden, and shipping from Mouser or DigiKey is expensive. :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Thu, 09 May 2013, 00:24:34
    Not at all. Not pretty, though. Late at night now, so sorry about the poor lighting.
    The drill holes are so ugly because I tried first to grind off some of the the ESD plane around the holes. I should just have let it be, and paint it.
    (Attachment Link)
    BTW, it appears that a 1.25 key fits in the new key position.  :D
    Another problem I have now.. is sourcing the I/O expander. I can't find it in Sweden, and shipping from Mouser or DigiKey is expensive. :(

    Thanks for posting, it seems you are using the circuitry/traces from SW1:9 for the new switch, right?

    I can post the expander to you if you think the USPS service is within your budget.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 10 May 2013, 22:46:33
    Can the ErgoDox use PCB switches and go plateless?

    Here us my layout for SC2. I am thinking about making a layer for each race. I currently have the first layer for gaming and second for typing.
    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=9D5T3A&hash=21c1c6029e90ca9702c50c862fe3b2f7
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:29:26
    yep it can go plateless and use pcb-only though the massdrop litster-style case will not allow that

    maybe we can get a shapeways shell designed and made to place the ergodox in and use pcb mounted-no plate required so any layout would work i would actually be interested in doing this as i think it was the original intent by the ergodox team to have a shell made instead of the litster case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: brtaylor92 on Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:35:04
    yep it can go plateless and use pcb-only though the massdrop litster-style case will not allow that

    maybe we can get a shapeways shell designed and made to place the ergodox in and use pcb mounted-no plate required so any layout would work i would actually be interested in doing this as i think it was the original intent by the ergodox team to have a shell made instead of the litster case.

    There is a shell available on shapeways (actually, 3 - flat, slanted, tented), it's just much more expensive than litster's design.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:37:28
    yep it can go plateless and use pcb-only though the massdrop litster-style case will not allow that

    maybe we can get a shapeways shell designed and made to place the ergodox in and use pcb mounted-no plate required so any layout would work i would actually be interested in doing this as i think it was the original intent by the ergodox team to have a shell made instead of the litster case.

    There is a shell available on shapeways (actually, 3 - flat, slanted, tented), it's just much more expensive than litster's design.

    forgot about that, im sure we could figure out something though to reduce cost, i'm sure i'm not the only one that wants a different case. I want variety among my THREE ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:43:38
    http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Dox

    but if you look at the design, it still uses a plate. But i'm not sure why you wouldn't want a plate unless you're look at the 1u key thumbcluster variant, as the plate design in the ergodox doesn't stop you from opening up the switches anyway. For using the standard layout, plate + pcb mounted switches are the best of both worlds in regards to stability.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 10 May 2013, 23:51:45
    I think I need to stop being lazy and design a plate-less case even if that means taking the time to learn how.

    plateless  clicky switches like blues and whites actually feel awesome. I love variety.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Sat, 11 May 2013, 00:10:57
    Here us my layout for SC2. I am thinking about making a layer for each race. I currently have the first layer for gaming and second for typing.
    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=9D5T3A&hash=21c1c6029e90ca9702c50c862fe3b2f7
    Why make a hardware layout on the ergodox when you can modify your hotkeys in game to serve the same effect?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 11 May 2013, 00:15:13
    I play UMS games as well as ladder. If I use anything else besides standard, it messes up. Some things lose their hotkeys.
    If you dont get what I am saying just make any custom ingame layout and play an arcadr game. You may notice some of the hotkeys arent bound.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sat, 11 May 2013, 00:23:43
    a hardware layer could also be brought over to another pc to play the same game without having to do the remaps all over again. plug and play, literally.

    @theqsanity: that is an interesting layout you've got there.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheQsanity on Sat, 11 May 2013, 00:37:16
    It's still in the works. I will change a few things. I think I will move the Q row one to the right and add tab where the Q is.
    My goal is to have all the hotkeys that I would need on one hand. Like a game pad. I can't stand jumping from board to board trying to hit the hotkeys.
    I noticed while playing Zerg that the V keys was much farther than I am used to. I may switch it with the N key.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Sat, 11 May 2013, 10:04:32
    I play UMS games as well as ladder. If I use anything else besides standard, it messes up. Some things lose their hotkeys.
    If you dont get what I am saying just make any custom ingame layout and play an arcadr game. You may notice some of the hotkeys arent bound.
    Ah yeah, good point. I'm not a big arcade player.

    a hardware layer could also be brought over to another pc to play the same game without having to do the remaps all over again. plug and play, literally.
    Well if we are talking SC2, all of the hotkeys are tied to your account iirc.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 11 May 2013, 18:42:36
    maybe we can get a shapeways shell designed [...]
    I don't think building a case would be that difficult, depending on what material you want. A case does not need to be much more than a box with a bottom. The PCB would rests on spacers on the bottom. There are several 1/4" holes in each PCB where I think that you can put nylon spacers. Put bolts or screws through these spacers to hold the case together.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Sun, 12 May 2013, 23:18:19
    Not at all. Not pretty, though. Late at night now, so sorry about the poor lighting.
    The drill holes are so ugly because I tried first to grind off some of the the ESD plane around the holes. I should just have let it be, and paint it.
    (Attachment Link)
    BTW, it appears that a 1.25 key fits in the new key position.  :D
    After some playing with KiCAD I moved the new holes more to the right so now I can fit a 1.5X perpendicular to the thumb keys.
    (had to desolder all the switches on the right side, not fun  :mad:)
    I printed the layout (attached) on a paper and used it as a guide to drill the hole.

    Now my question is how do I lacquer the new holes since the copper layers are exposed? Any suggestion is welcomed  :)

    I also used SolidWorks to model the location of the new key so I can mill the acrylic layers.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 14 May 2013, 09:52:49
    Cool! But you would have to find a new place to fit the diode.

    Btw, your circuit diagram has holes for PCB-mounted stabilizers. There are leads in the way for those holes on the production PCBs ...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Wed, 15 May 2013, 02:31:59
    Cool! But you would have to find a new place to fit the diode.

    I'm using the diode from the old switch (sw1:9).
    Isolating the copper plate that's exposed because of the drilling was much harder than what I thought, the lacquer kept pulling away from the sharp edges of the copper and sanding/smoothing it without exposing more copper was challenging  :-X

    Btw, your circuit diagram has holes for PCB-mounted stabilizers. There are leads in the way for those holes on the production PCBs ...
    I think they are shown from bphiphanies original design, I'm not using them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 15 May 2013, 07:24:44
    I dremeled the holes with a conical grinding bit to remove metal from the edges, but that did of course expose metal in a ring around each hole.
    Another idea I had was to solder wires to the switch pins and using something (shrink-tubing if possible, shrink-wrap or lacquer otherwise  :-\ ) to insulate the pins before mounting the switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Fri, 17 May 2013, 02:56:46
    I dremeled the holes with a conical grinding bit to remove metal from the edges, but that did of course expose metal in a ring around each hole.
    Another idea I had was to solder wires to the switch pins and using something (shrink-tubing if possible, shrink-wrap or lacquer otherwise  :-\ ) to insulate the pins before mounting the switch.

    After I finished both sides with that white glue thingy Amazon decided it was time to send me a real lacquer  >:D
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008OA7AWE/
    (I tested it and it works much better but it has so many health related warnings on it that I'm surprised they still sell it !!!)

    I love the new thumb key, thanks for giving me some idea :)
    I'm typing much more comfortably and faster.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Sat, 18 May 2013, 00:11:06
    My original ErgoDox is now complete, with DSA keycaps!

    (http://i.imgur.com/Hj4TqAk.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WRXChris on Sat, 18 May 2013, 00:15:36
    My original ErgoDox is now complete, with DSA keycaps!

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/Hj4TqAk.jpg)


    Now I'm regretting not being able to afford that retro set even more!  Looks great lit! :eek:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Sat, 18 May 2013, 00:44:10
    yeah, I didn't do anything with my ergodox after I finished designing the acrylic cases.  Then I put it away for months, and just dug it back out just to install the new DSA caps on it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WRXChris on Sat, 18 May 2013, 00:54:11
    yeah, I didn't do anything with my ergodox after I finished designing the acrylic cases.  Then I put it away for months, and just dug it back out just to install the new DSA caps on it.

    Excellent job on the case design, BTW.  It's very solid and looks awesome!!

    I still don't use mine as my daily driver, but I use it for a bit every day and am quickly getting over my muscle memory related slowdown.  Space/Enter/BS/Del are slowing me down the most, my only other issue is 'B'.  I sometimes hit the key to the right of it when touch typing quickly since I'm used to it being shifted half-a-key to the right on a standard staggered layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Sat, 18 May 2013, 01:24:52
    Thanks Chris.  I really like this case design, especially with the wrist rest version.  It is very solid.  I like the cavity in the case where you can see the teensy and other components.

    I have problem with V, C, and the arrow keys.  But the rest of the layout I think I can get used to, since I made it very close to the normal QWERTY layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sat, 18 May 2013, 03:28:11
    ... I have problem with V, C, and the arrow keys.  But the rest of the layout I think I can get used to, since I made it very close to the normal QWERTY layout.

    FWIW, I devised an adapted-QWERTY layout with a typical inverted-T arrow cluster:
    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=S49G3K&hash=ffa81da9d8223848b98b5e2cd1f4dea5

    This involved moving /? to the bottom row along with ' ", but I think I'll like those placements (once I get used to them) for reducing pinky strain and improving accuracy (I'm always fat-fingering those keys in standard layouts anyway), and really the /? position right below ,< is perfect for HTML coding at my day job.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WRXChris on Sat, 18 May 2013, 03:57:19
    On the arrow key topic, my favorite setup is using WASD as the arrow cluster on Layer 1, and I have a 'Layer 1 toggle' button as the bottom left button of the right thumb cluster on Layer 0.  Similarly,  I use a 'Layer 2 toggle' button as the bottom right button of my left thumb cluster, giving me quick access to my number pad on the right bank! 

    Good luck deciphering everything I just said, lol, not sure of a better way to explain it in words.  Here's a picture of my L0 and L1:

    (http://i.imgur.com/THDhzDU.jpg)

    As you can see I have Kinesis-style arrow keys on L0, and I've tried to use them but they just confuse me and trip me up.  I'll figure out a better purpose for these keys at some point because I'm all about my layered WASD arrow keys!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sat, 18 May 2013, 04:36:49
    @wrxchris - try up, left, down, right for that arrow row on L0. Having the bottom arrow keys in the same sequence as normal arrow clusters would likely be easily to adapt to than the kinesis style row.

    As for your layered WASD cluster idea, the ~L2 is just too far for easy use, unless you have huge hands. Shift your LALT to where your caplock is and shift the caplocks to another layer, since I imagine you wouldn't actually be toggling CAPS status very often. Having ~L2 where your LALT current is would be perfect for the the toggled WASD cluster.

    Just some suggestions that may be helpful, cheers.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 18 May 2013, 10:20:51
    Sorry for the last post on Kurplops wood Ergodox....almost need an Ergodox Gallery.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 18 May 2013, 10:27:15

    WOW! Sordna linked me to this since I'm out of touch these days.

    Outstanding work and I'm very impressed with your design. Very impressed.

    Ok, here it goes, typical Input Nirvana questions:

    Did you take any pics of the mouse work interior?
    Is it possible to get a few pics with hand placement, one on keyboard another on the mousing?
    Any close-up pics of the sides of the keyboard (front, side, back, under)?
    How did you decide the placement of the Ergo-halves?
    Any pics of the unit during construction?
    How did you decide on the keyboard profiles/design? I like the detail.

    Talk about WOW! To be noticed by the two Guru's of Kinesis modifications is quite an honor.

    I hope to start a new thread on my project so as not to take up too much space on this one but a few quick responses here.

    You realize of course that showing the unfinished underside of my keyboard is like showing up for an underwear modeling gig before I had time to shave my back, but here goes. :-[ 
    (Attachment Link)

    Sorry the pictures are so out of focus. The top button is set for click and the thumb falls naturally to it. The left button is set for right click and it's very easy to get to. The others are set for forward and back in OSX and middle click in Windows.  They are not as easy to reach while using the ball but that's the beauty of a center mount trackball where you can assist with the other hand.
    (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

    One final picture here of the mockup I made to help me determine the placement of things. I used hot glue to make a "hinge" and two wood scraps to find the best tenting angle for me. The amount of splaying and separation between units was predetermined by how my arms naturally lay.

    (Attachment Link)

    I have more pictures I will post soon in another thread.

    2 items that capture my initial interest:

    #1- The warmth of the wood and the design are very notable, far more than just a nice touch. I appreciate the use of natural materials. We are after all, natural beings. Paint, plastic, sheetrock get old very quickly.
    #2- The physical placement of the halves relative to each other and the mousing.

    Please make the separate thread/article, it's a huge benefit.

    HILARIOUS SIDE NOTE: 99.999999% of all keyboards are a single keyboard. A couple have a separated hand design but are still a single keyboard (ex:Kinesis Advantage). The Ergodox was designed to be a true split 2 piece keyboard, and Kurplop made it into a single keyboard! LOL Ya gotta see the irony in that!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sat, 18 May 2013, 11:26:09
    As you can see I have Kinesis-style arrow keys on L0, and I've tried to use them but they just confuse me and trip me up.  I'll figure out a better purpose for these keys at some point because I'm all about my layered WASD arrow keys!

    Hugh? What you have are *not* kinesis style arrows. Kinesis arrows have horizontal movement on the left side and vertical movement on the right. Check my layout which does have kinesis arrows (only change being I swapped up/down to better simulate vi)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 18 May 2013, 11:56:39
    Listboss:

    I like the key that can be hit with finger (or preferably) thumb...any work that can be moved to thumbs is a positive.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sat, 18 May 2013, 16:47:59
    2 items that capture my initial interest:

    #1- The warmth of the wood and the design are very notable, far more than just a nice touch. I appreciate the use of natural materials. We are after all, natural beings. Paint, plastic, sheetrock get old very quickly.
    #2- The physical placement of the halves relative to each other and the mousing.

    Please make the separate thread/article, it's a huge benefit.

    HILARIOUS SIDE NOTE: 99.999999% of all keyboards are a single keyboard. A couple have a separated hand design but are still a single keyboard (ex:Kinesis Advantage). The Ergodox was designed to be a true split 2 piece keyboard, and Kurplop made it into a single keyboard! LOL Ya gotta see the irony in that!

    Yeah, I agree. it's a lot like somebody remarrying their ex-wife isn't it?

    Thanks for your interest IN, your comments are a welcome stroke to my fragile ego. You should know that I've tried about a dozen times to upload a full report on my Ergo/ball/tray only to have it stall during transmission  causing me to lose everything. I think it may  be the number of pictures but it just froze up again with only four. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I do want to share this with the gh community but need some assistance. Because of my advanced years I am afraid that my brain may be digitally under-clocked.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 19 May 2013, 16:27:15
    Shift your LALT to where your caplock is and shift the caplocks to another layer, since I imagine you wouldn't actually be toggling CAPS status very often.
    Also note that the firmware handles RShift+LShift as a CapsLock toggle, so there's no need for a dedicated CapsLock key. :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 19 May 2013, 20:10:09
    Also note that the firmware handles RShift+LShift as a CapsLock toggle, so there's no need for a dedicated CapsLock key. :)

    "Can handle" to be laboriously accurate about things :). Important because I'm not sure the massdrop generated layouts use the feature.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lcalcote on Sun, 19 May 2013, 21:24:31

    i am speechless,

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 20 May 2013, 03:25:02
    Also note that the firmware handles RShift+LShift as a CapsLock toggle, so there's no need for a dedicated CapsLock key. :)

    "Can handle" to be laboriously accurate about things :). Important because I'm not sure the massdrop generated layouts use the feature.
    it's very very easy to implement when you download the source from the massdrop configurator. makes for a good introductory step into more serious firmware hacking. someone ought to thank the guy that did all the hard work on that firmware stuff.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 20 May 2013, 14:59:26
    Haha :). Not done yet! Seen rev-2 lately?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 20 May 2013, 17:28:53
    Not properly. I've seen that you've been active in the partial rewrite branch, but I've just been hacking around with the original source code for now. I've never done that much with C or C++, and most of my tiny amount of experience was around 15 years ago, so I've mostly been trying to get my head around how things work with a stable codebase to begin with. Nothing too adventurous, the teensy led is now my caps lock light, and the under-key leds are used for layers. One of them is used for my concept of a "base layer" and indicates whether I'm in Mac Colemak, Windows Colemak or Qwerty mode by being off, on, or flashing. I was rightly proud of that last state, but that's about as fancy as I've got so far :)

    Is the new flavour getting to the sort of state where it's worth other people having a crack at it then?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 22 May 2013, 22:55:31
    Sorry the late reply - just finished my last final today! (for the semester at least) :)

    A flashing state for the LED is pretty good, lol - that timer and interrupt stuff isn't the most intuitive (at least, it wasn't for me).

    The new branch is definitely usable :) - I'm running it on my board, and I think a few people have forked from it.  If you're trying to track the branch, you might want to wait a bit, since I will change things up without warning if I happen to think of a better way to do things - that's part of why I'm keeping it in a separate branch still.  The other major reason is that I haven't had time to write most of the user level documentation and examples (for things like how to implement sticky, chorded, or macro keys, or use the scheduling functions I recently got in there) -- and there are a few features I'd like to get in before moving it to master too i guess.  If you're just going to fork, make a few changes, and thinking about merging later though, I think the new branch is definitely better (a little more coherently organized, I hope, and layers are much easier to modify in source since there's only one matrix instead of three) - but whether it's worth your effort to switch (especially right now) is highly subjective.  Summer's starting, so I'll probably have quite a bit more time to work on it.  Hopefully I'll have it about as complete as it'll be before summer ends :D .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Thu, 23 May 2013, 03:00:47
    Sorry the late reply - just finished my last final today! (for the semester at least) :)
    congrats :)
    Quote
    A flashing state for the LED is pretty good, lol - that timer and interrupt stuff isn't the most intuitive (at least, it wasn't for me).
    heh, you haven't seen how i did it ;)
    Quote
    The new branch ... layers are much easier to modify in source since there's only one matrix instead of three ...
    w00t. that was one of the things i was wondering about hacking at :) i shall try to have a look through and see what I can do with it soon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bearcat on Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:42:30
    i've been using the new brach, love it.  i haven't been tracking it too closely, though.  Definitely looking forward to seeing how you work out sticky keys & macros :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 23 May 2013, 16:58:55
    I've discovered that the Cherry G81-1800/-7000 models are a great donor board for cheap, row-profiled, labeled keycaps for the ErgoDox, as they already have 1x Ctrl/Alt/Win keys, and their otherwise-terrible Cherry MY keyswitches happen to use MX-compatible keycaps, at least for all keys relevant to the ErgoDox. This guy has like 300 of them in stock (http://www.ebay.com/itm/400477813233); I made an offer of $5 (+S/H) and got a counteroffer of $7.50, which I accepted, so $21.50 shipped for a decent set of caps wasn't too shabby a deal.

    These appear to be laser-etched (not engraved+infilled) POM keys, as the legends seem to be "blanched" into the dark plastic, leaving a perfectly uniform surface texture. POM is interesting, rigid yet not brittle seeming, with a slightly waxy surface feel; this makes sense, as I've seen Delrin (a brand of POM) sometimes described as being like a "self-lubricating Nylon". The F and J keys have Cherry's signature "deep scoop" homing profile, which I find quite nice, rather than the usual raised dot or line. They came off easily with a homebrew cap puller (paperclip formed into a U-shape, with the tips bent inward as hooks), but fit a bit more snugly on the MX clears that came with my ErgoDox kit (yet still not too difficult to pull off again).

    Anyway, I haven't even got around to soldering my keyswitches in yet, but I just had to mount up the caps to see how they look and feel, and of course to show everyone here:

    [attachimg=1]

    Of note, I think using a row-profiled key on the right Space key (where you see the 1.25x Shift cap mounted), with its nearly vertical upper edge facing the main cluster, may mitigate the spacing/reach issue some have mentioned with that key's position. I was gonna use a top-row 2x cap (e.g. Backspace) with its more level face there, but now that I've tried the bottom-row Shift cap there, I think the way its face slopes down towards the main cluster may work even better to strike glancing blows with the side-tip of my thumb. The numpad Enter vertical cap, with its sloping face and vertical scoop, also seems to suit the angle of a thumb striking it better than a more level numpad "+" cap or 2x horizontal cap would, and it provides some terracing separation from the Ctrl key, so I think I'll keep that. I'm using the NumLock cap for a key to push/pop my numpad (Layer 2), rather than toggling the NumLock state itself per se. Now I just need to get my ( 8 ) 1.5x caps, a proper 2x cap for the Space key, and maybe a blank numpad Enter cap for the Delete positon (then again, I might just keep that as-is and accept the gaps).

    Oh BTW, regarding swapping the positions of the LEDs and their resistors, it took some fiddling to get the LEDs' leads oriented correctly to allow clearance between each other and the case cutout, while also allowing room to insert the stripped USB mini plug into the Teensy jack. For LEDa and LEDb, The negative (shorter) lead needs to go straight down into the hole, with only the positive (longer) lead being bent to reach the other hole, but those positive leads need to be bent in different ways. The one for LEDa needs to be bent straight away from the (-) lead, whereas the one for LEDb needs to be bent 90 degrees from that orientation:

    [attachimg=2]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Rolz73 on Thu, 23 May 2013, 21:10:01
    Firmware is very hackable, I now made the teensy LED light up whenever I am not in the main layer, it's super useful, and shows very nicely through the acrylic case! Code patch below, includes the buzzer stuff.

    This is fantastic. 

    I am still waiting on my parts to arrive from the 2nd GB, so I have had lots of time to research mods and such.  I had originally though that the ErgoDox would be already setup with 6 LEDs which I had planned on not using for the caps/num/scr,  but as a binary indicator as to which layer I am currently on (although I am going to have a tough time figuring out what I am even going to configure the many extra layers as).  Of course I will have to see if I can wire them so that I can place them in different positions, but then that will be part of the fun.

    But this is just another step towards that mod, thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Fri, 24 May 2013, 16:33:30
    I've discovered that the Cherry G81-1800/-7000 models are a great donor board for cheap, row-profiled, labeled keycaps for the ErgoDox, as they already have 1x Ctrl/Alt/Win keys, and their otherwise-terrible Cherry MY keyswitches happen to use MX-compatible keycaps, at least for all keys relevant to the ErgoDox. This guy has like 300 of them in stock (http://www.ebay.com/itm/400477813233); I made an offer of $5 (+S/H) and got a counteroffer of $7.50, which I accepted, so $21.50 shipped for a decent set of caps wasn't too shabby a deal.


    That's a great idea. I've never used a POM key set before, unless the old POS keyboards I used to use at retail jobs were POM keys when I had just assumed they were filthy and disgusting. Also, I happen to notice that these are used card-swipe keyboards, which means they might have that same feel and send me into ****ty-job PTSD. Heh. But hey, for $10 maybe I'll pick up a couple and see if they're not totally revolting; those 1x mod keys would be nice for the dox too.

    Also I had no idea that MY switches could use MX caps...learn something new every day.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 24 May 2013, 17:32:54
    I've discovered that the Cherry G81-1800/-7000 models are a great donor board for cheap, row-profiled, labeled keycaps for the ErgoDox, as they already have 1x Ctrl/Alt/Win keys, and their otherwise-terrible Cherry MY keyswitches happen to use MX-compatible keycaps, at least for all keys relevant to the ErgoDox. This guy has like 300 of them in stock (http://www.ebay.com/itm/400477813233); I made an offer of $5 (+S/H) and got a counteroffer of $7.50, which I accepted, so $21.50 shipped for a decent set of caps wasn't too shabby a deal.


    That's a great idea. I've never used a POM key set before, unless the old POS keyboards I used to use at retail jobs were POM keys when I had just assumed they were filthy and disgusting. Also, I happen to notice that these are used card-swipe keyboards, which means they might have that same feel and send me into ****ty-job PTSD. Heh. But hey, for $10 maybe I'll pick up a couple and see if they're not totally revolting; those 1x mod keys would be nice for the dox too.

    Also I had no idea that MY switches could use MX caps...learn something new every day.

    The cap interchange is covered on the Deskthority wiki on MY switches (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MY). While the caps they come with are quite nice, the actual MY switches have terrible keying action to actually type with; the force curve is just plain unpleasant. Seems they were designed to be a more rugged alternative to rubber domes while retaining the cheap, printed-circuit membrane-sandwich contacts normally used with a rubber dome setup. Suffice to say, I feel no remorse for junking the rest of the board after I scavenged the caps off it. The controller board might be useful to keep for a hand-wired board if you study the membrane circuit traces...

    On the board I got, the keys were fairly clean and hardly looked used at all, maybe at most some slightly noticeable signs of use on the numpad caps (makes sense for a POS board), which won't even be used on an ErgoDox anyway. The only debris under the caps was a surprising buildup of fabric lint, leading me to guess the boards in this guy's lot were maybe used in clothing stores. After popping the caps I dropped them in an empty yogurt pail with some water and Pine-Sol and shook it up, let it soak a while, shook again and drained, followed by a couple more rinse-shake cycles with plain water, leaving the caps looking good as new.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Sun, 26 May 2013, 21:27:18
    I've discovered that the Cherry G81-1800/-7000 models are a great donor board for cheap, row-profiled, labeled keycaps for the ErgoDox, as they
    Can you please post a closeup of the Backspace key? Does it have a flat profile?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 27 May 2013, 03:25:51
    I've discovered that the Cherry G81-1800/-7000 models are a great donor board for cheap, row-profiled, labeled keycaps for the ErgoDox, as they
    Can you please post a closeup of the Backspace key? Does it have a flat profile?

    Fairly flat faced, with a slight cylindrical scoop of course, similar to DCS (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php) Row 1, whereas the Shift cap has a more sloped face similar to DCS Row 3 or 4 (which is what I'll want to use for my Space cap, with the low end towards the main cluster). In the top pic here, the upper edges of both caps are facing towards the left:

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: listboss on Mon, 27 May 2013, 13:06:51

    Fairly flat faced, with a slight cylindrical scoop of course, similar to DCS (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php) Row 1, whereas the Shift
    (Attachment Link)
    Thanks for the detailed pictures. Is that SHIFT key a 1.5X ?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 27 May 2013, 16:19:01
    Fairly flat faced, with a slight cylindrical scoop of course, similar to DCS (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php) Row 1, whereas the Shift
    Thanks for the detailed pictures. Is that SHIFT key a 1.5X ?

    Nope, it's a 1.75x; the only 1.5x caps in this set were the Tab and \| caps. I mounted that Shift cap to my right-thumb Space key on a lark, just to get a feel for the typing action with this board and cap set, and discovered I might like that sloped Row 3/4 profile for Space keying anyway, so I'll prolly order a proper 2x cap with that profile from Signature Plastics (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php), along with ( 8 ) 1.5x Row 2 caps and maybe a 2x Row 4 Vertical cap (for the Delete key).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 30 May 2013, 03:12:44
    edit: this has been resolved, just plugging the usb into the teensy will not do as the board needs some of the usb plug as well (ex VCC), fixed with some creative wiring.

    Geekhack HEELLLPPPP!

    so i built my second ErgoDox today, stayed up all night, and i've run into problems, the entire thing does not work, i am suspecting i may have damaged the teensy but i handled it with care and no visual evidence of damage

    pictures below and here are the facts

    - this is the metal case this time, i did use the mylor sheet and no contacts are touching metal i checked
    - plugging the mini usb cable directly into teensy, i lost the usb thing to solder into board, i planned on skipping it and instead just having a cable direct into it if i cant find the part
    - i did a visual inspection and everything appears to be soldered correctly, the diodes are the correct direction, quadruple checked, nothing is crossed
    - the left hand works 100% fine, i tested by connecting to my first ergodox
    - i followed the directions to program correctly, ive done this before with the first one
    - blink_fast.hex and blink_slow.hex program into teensy just fine it blinks (duh)
    - only thing that is obvious is that there is maybe too much solder on some switches and diodes and i didn't clean the melted rosin off so its obvious its a bit messy in the picture. this shouldnt be a problem because i made the same mistakes on the first one and other keyboards ive assembled.
    - i desoldered and resoldered any solder joints that looked suspectious
    - it isnt even registering as a keyboard in the device manager, i would expect that if it was something wrong with my soldering then it would at least register as a keyboard after being programed, right?
    - i have tried programming with multiple computers, same results.

    Is it possible the teensy is messed up even though blink_fast.hex and blink_slow.hex program fine?

    i really want to use this ergodox assembly instead of the first one, i'm almost willing tomorrow to desolder the teensy off the first ergodox and soldering it onto this second one, that would answer if i messed up the second teensy and i would just get a new one. but im not sure how risky that is.

    (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/8887427921_69c0b8d5df.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887427921/)
    grr not working (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887427921/) by almightyglod (http://www.flickr.com/people/panicfx/), on Flickr
    (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5448/8887434559_931dbf33f0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887434559/)
    grrrr not working (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887434559/) by almightyglod (http://www.flickr.com/people/panicfx/), on Flickr
    (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7302/8887454503_7e43708b65.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887454503/)
    everything should work but it doesn't (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8887454503/) by almightyglod (http://www.flickr.com/people/panicfx/), on Flickr
    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2879/8888091888_5d584f72f0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8888091888/)
    blink works but not the keyboard (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8888091888/) by almightyglod (http://www.flickr.com/people/panicfx/), on Flickr


    edit: this has been resolved, just plugging the usb into the teensy will not do as the board needs some of the usb plug as well (ex VCC), fixed with some creative wiring
    -
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 30 May 2013, 03:32:36
    Someone (me) forgot to connect VCC from the Teensy to the 3.5 mm connector/USB connector. This may be your only problem. Use a wire or jumper lead to connect the VCC pin on the Teensy with the VCC pad on the USB connector.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 30 May 2013, 03:56:32
    DOH!, thats why i cant have the usb connector directly plugged into the teensy, damn it was obvious, im going to have to figure out some sort of work around given i dont have the mini-usb connector, i lost the part, either i solder my way around this problem or order and wait for the part :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Thu, 30 May 2013, 05:09:46
    EDIT: Oops, ignore this. I misread last two posts and just repeat what is there.

    You skipped the USB connector on PCB. Did you check that the PCB is designed in such a way that +5V on the USB PCB connector is connected with +5V on the teensy board? Because if it is not you may miss power delivery to some components on the PCB. I do not know whether this can be your problem. I do not have ErgoDox nor the ErgoDox PCB scheme to check it out.
    Too much flux does not matter (don't bother with it if you do not mind the ugliness). Too much solder does not matter either if it does not create a short.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 30 May 2013, 05:58:42
    As vvp says, you simply need to connect +5V (VCC) from the Teensy to the USB connector. That way the 3.5mm plug will get +5V as well. They are connected. The reason the keyboard doesn't work is that the Teensy doesn't find the IO-expander (since it isn't powered. A short wire will fix this, you don't need to use the USB connector.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 30 May 2013, 06:56:03
    thanks guys

    Well in my manic whirlwind of wanting to get this to work I did some odd wiring to accomplish just that and it paid off. I'll order the part of do something cleaner later but this works and yay I just tested and my keyboard works, I just had to fix the soldering of a diode but it all works now.

    Now I can sleep peacefully knowing ergodox #2 with stickerd ergo white switches and aluminium body is complete with only cosmetic fixes left to do

    Zzzzzzzzzz 7 am est up 24 hours
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 30 May 2013, 17:50:33
    That is a true frankenmod  =D

    The long story is that I did half-right.. The original idea was to not have anything connected to the USB connector on the PCB. That way the connector could have been put on either side. GND happened to end up connected by mistake, making it a bit difficult to separate it again if you'd like to mount the connector on the flip side (doing a left-hand only keyboard for example). So VCC could just as well have been connected as also =P
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Fri, 31 May 2013, 15:34:10
    I went ahead and picked up a couple of said cherry donor boards--it's actually pretty nice! POM keys are a little waxy-feeling, as described, but I don't mind it; as well, the keying action of MY switches are just the same as every ****ty POS keyboard I've ever used. Junked immediately with extreme prejudice.

    I did get a bit of a surprise though--I got two sets of them, and they came with two different windows keys.

    http://imgur.com/a/qIs7E

    The keys in general on both boards are the thicker stock as seen on the left, but one board had these ugly/thin caps for the windows keys as seen on the right. Buyer beware!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 31 May 2013, 15:49:55
    ? :confused:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Squeaky Wheel on Sun, 02 June 2013, 15:11:07
    A few questions about the Ergodox. Bear in mind that I'm new to this:

    1. Can somebody make me one?
    2. Does it have full NKRO over USB?
    3. Could it work with Plover?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Sun, 02 June 2013, 22:06:38
    1) There are people who have been performing assembly services, yeah. Once you're at 60 posts you can post in the classifieds about a fully-assembled keyboard, or hopefully someone will volunteer in this thread before then.
    2) Nope, 6KRO for teensies. Do you actually need more than that?
    3) What?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gnubag on Mon, 03 June 2013, 01:19:21
    NKRO is possible over the teensy.
    It works with the phantom, but I don't know the ergodox is supporting it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Mon, 03 June 2013, 05:06:36
    2. Does it have full NKRO over USB?
    It is 6 keys + 8 modifiers.
    http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html#p113120
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Mon, 03 June 2013, 08:01:11
    Yay! Round 2 on Massdrop has shipped!

    3) What?
    I was curious as well and this is what I found:
    Plover is an open-source stenography program. Essentially, it's a way for people to type really fast (well over 150 WPM). It requires NKRO as far as I know.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: NthTier on Mon, 03 June 2013, 08:06:30
    Just got my notice that my order from the 2nd Ergodox massdrop shipped!!!   :cool:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 03 June 2013, 15:32:46
    NKRO (and other USB level features) are on my list of things to work on, and it shouldn't be waaaay too long before I have time to look at them.  Last time I messed with USB stuff I didn't get extremely far though, so we'll see if I've learned enough in the interim to be successful this time :) lol.

    Looking into it a little further, it seems that Plover can work without NKRO (http://plover.stenoknight.com/2011/02/plover-211-released.html), provided one is willing to "arpeggiate" the keys.  Not sure how much of a pain that might be...

    EDIT:
    Congratulations to all the round 2-ers!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Mon, 03 June 2013, 16:52:46
    And now I just got to wait for a round 3 .. hopefully there will be one!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 03 June 2013, 21:11:17
    And now I just got to wait for a round 3 .. hopefully there will be one!
    I think they ran Round 2 once the post-Round 1 Requesters count got up near 300, and post-Round 2 Requesters are now at 131, so we may be getting there...

    Anyone who wants another round, be sure to click the Request button on the ErgoDox Round 2 page (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2)!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 04 June 2013, 02:02:38
    Lol got my shipping notice for my round 2 ErgoDox--almost forgot i ordered a round 2 ergodox, this would be my 3rd ErgoDox. it wasnt that expensive considering i didn't get any switches or key caps this time around. I may consider selling the round 2 board someday if something, if anything, would replace my ErgoDox. For now its going in a safe.


    didn't rant this last week but i recently built my second ergodox with the aluminium case and i have to say. THAT SUCKED, sanding and filing the case and PCB was freaking annoying to get the PCB to fit. The case is cool once you sand and buff it but i am glad MassDrop didn't offer it in round 2. Not only was sanding down the PCB annoying, it was also scary.


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Tue, 04 June 2013, 02:56:35
    Out of curiosity--why on earth is anyone sanding down the PCB? Why not just sand out the inside of the second aluminum cake layer? I did two of them that way and it wasn't that bad; you just bend it first so that the outer perimeter matches adjacent layers, mount your switches to the board and solder through the PCB, and finally mount your caps and flip it upside down so that you can see which part of layer 2 is making contact the PCB. File that area layer 2, repeat.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 04 June 2013, 03:20:44
    1, i did a combination of filing the case and sanding the pcb, not just sanding the pcb
    2. you may have been lucky not to have the case as bad as i did. it was extremely off. my right hand layer was ridiculously not the right size, no filing little areas would have worked, it would have required a complete carving out of inside of the layer (not all of it though, just enough room for the pcb but that still would be a lot)
    3. i lacked the right tools and this was the safest way to go, this was the biggest reason. i have a dremel but not the right tip for the job, i tried the grinding and sanding i easily wore that **** down. i had some sort of file but even that wasn't enough. the filing only helped the corners and jacks.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Tue, 04 June 2013, 09:55:03
    Mine was pretty horrible too, but I took material entirely out of the case.  A large, course cross-cut file makes quick work of the insanely-bad cuts.  You'll also need a mini-file for some of the tight spots.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:21:43
    Hell yeah.. my round 2 'dox should be here tomorrow!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:30:11
    Hell yeah.. my round 2 'dox should be here tomorrow!
    Mines comin the day after. Gonna be awesome.

    Gonna have to wait for the switches/case, but still. I guess I could get the diodes on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 06 June 2013, 16:48:06
    this is a question because i am right now a bit busy to do research,

    does anyone know whats the exact type of screws used with the massdrop litster case?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 06 June 2013, 19:48:45
    this is a question because i am right now a bit busy to do research,

    does anyone know whats the exact type of screws used with the massdrop litster case?

    M3x0.5 (standard coarse thread) socket head cap screw, 22mm length. UTS (SAE) #4 thread will also fit the provided screw holes. Case is 18mm (~0.7") thick.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Thu, 06 June 2013, 21:50:29
    Missed the GB
    Wish I could get my hands on one.
    Anyone knows if there will be another GB?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 07 June 2013, 02:38:14
    Missed the GB
    Wish I could get my hands on one.
    Anyone knows if there will be another GB?

    And now I just got to wait for a round 3 .. hopefully there will be one!
    I think they ran Round 2 once the post-Round 1 Requesters count got up near 300, and post-Round 2 Requesters are now at 131, so we may be getting there...

    Anyone who wants another round, be sure to click the Request button on the ErgoDox Round 2 page (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-2)!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 07 June 2013, 11:26:57
    Quick q: I just fit together the case and switches as a dry run to make sure everything fit together, and I noticed that the bolts stick out a bit below the case. I really don't want to scratch my desk, can anybody recommend some rubber feet that can either fit around the nuts or are a bit thicker than them so that they don't touch the desk?

    Hope that made sense...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Fri, 07 June 2013, 12:02:26
    I ended up bolting from the bottom up, so that the nut side is on the top of the keyboard; as well, I bought some little silicone friendlyfeet from Home Depot not only to protect my desk, but also to keep the boards from skating around from every little force applied to them. No complaints!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 09 June 2013, 00:05:13
    So..... anyone know whut's the latest with the mediakeys, copy/paste, and volume control?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 01:44:57
    Nerd achievement unlocked: ErgoDox Complete. :cool:

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 03:43:49
    So..... anyone know whut's the latest with the mediakeys, copy/paste, and volume control?

    Last word from Jasper at Massdrop suggests he may eventually get the Configurator working with those:
    Quote from: Jasper@Massdrop
    we've been moving pretty quickly here at massdrop so unfortunately i haven't had much time to develop the configurator further. i have a giant list of changes i've compiled from the discussion here that i will get to...eventually.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 09 June 2013, 11:25:12
    Yay! Round 2 on Massdrop has shipped!

    3) What?
    I was curious as well and this is what I found:
    Plover is an open-source stenography program. Essentially, it's a way for people to type really fast (well over 150 WPM). It requires NKRO as far as I know.

    Yep, one of the very very few things that can make use of over 6kro. Let's you type words/phrases at a time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Sun, 09 June 2013, 11:50:18
    For anyone interested, I have performed a modern-day miracle: I performed an internet search.

    http://stenoknight.com/wiki/FAQ#How_does_it_work.3F
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rsantos97 on Sun, 09 June 2013, 12:48:22
    I got mine in last week as well. Just got to find time to put it together.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Sun, 09 June 2013, 14:09:30
    Ordering a case with one size color for inner layers and a different size/color for the outer. Probably black inner and white outer.

    What is the best size to use? Options are 1/8, 3/16, and 1/16.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:55:57
    The ergodox fasteners are M2.5 - 0.5 x 22 yea?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:50:08
    The ergodox fasteners are M2.5 - 0.5 x 22 yea?

    M3x0.5, 22mm long.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 17:00:29
    Ordering a case with one size color for inner layers and a different size/color for the outer. Probably black inner and white outer.

    What is the best size to use? Options are 1/8, 3/16, and 1/16.
    The Massdrop case uses 1/8" for the outer layers and 3/16" for the inners. Using 1/8" for the middle layer 3 (switch mounting plate) would allow room to top-mount thru-hole diodes on the PCB, but then you may need a thicker 1/4" layer 2 below that, or two 1/8" layer 2s, to allow enough room for the PCB and solder bumps.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 09 June 2013, 17:54:25
    Please, I'm looking for the ErgoDox acrylic case project files to send to an laser shop.
    Anyone knows where I can get it??

    By the way, I'm trying to get it's PCB too but OSH Park is kinda expensive for 3 pieces only.
    I have uploaded the gerber files and got:
    "Detected 2 layer board of 7.21x6.27 inches (183x159mm). $226.15 for three. "

    I saw something like 160 pending orders at Massdrop but I think it will never happen (I saw somewhere that it was cancelled).
    Anyone want join up a group buy?
    I'm definitely interested in ...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 09 June 2013, 18:57:43
    http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx

    You might try pcbwing, since that's where all the PCBs made to date, that I know of, have been printed...

    The (second) Massdrop group buy just closed (or, just shipped, rather).  The first one went really well.  I'm sure the second one has been too.  There may be another, once registered interest gets high enough.

    But if you wana start your own group buy go for it :) .  There was talk of that a while ago on DT, but it never coalesced.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 09 June 2013, 19:22:39
    So..... anyone know whut's the latest with the mediakeys, copy/paste, and volume control?

    Last word from Jasper at Massdrop suggests he may eventually get the Configurator working with those:
    Quote from: Jasper@Massdrop
    we've been moving pretty quickly here at massdrop so unfortunately i haven't had much time to develop the configurator further. i have a giant list of changes i've compiled from the discussion here that i will get to...eventually.

    Three media keys (play/pause, previous track, and next track) were implemented by judascleric on the rev 1 (currently 'master') branch.  Copy/paste could probably be done simply with a macro (though... i still haven't written any good examples for how to write those...).  If you have a mac, the volume control keys already work (and have all along), but I don't recall hearing whether they work on other systems.

    This is all from a source code perspective though, not the configurator.  As for the UI, I have no idea what Jasper has planned... :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 09 June 2013, 20:42:05
    http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx

    You might try pcbwing, since that's where all the PCBs made to date, that I know of, have been printed...

    The (second) Massdrop group buy just closed (or, just shipped, rather).  The first one went really well.  I'm sure the second one has been too.  There may be another, once registered interest gets high enough.

    But if you wana start your own group buy go for it :) .  There was talk of that a while ago on DT, but it never coalesced.
    Ohh, I've missed that - I got all other files but the dxf.
    Thanks!

    I would start one group buy but Brazil is not the best place to ship stuff to - it would be kinda expensive for everybody in the group.

    What about one IC to count the heads interested on it?

    I got one quote at PCBWing:
    - 2 x 184mm x 160mm is something like US$ 123,02 (US$ 62,24 per board)
    - 20 x is US$ 270,24 (US$ 13,51 per board)
    I'm choosing 10 days, the tooling is US$ 106,06 for both options above.
    The interesting thing is that after 17 boards the tooling is ZERO if you do the same order again (it's right? I'm not sure of it)

    Not sure how much would be the shipping and it would require someone to do the proxy.
    I guess that with 20 guys we could get two boards for something like US$28 + shipping + re-shiping.

    Is not that hard to get 20 heads is it?




    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: f2015009 on Sun, 09 June 2013, 22:25:07
    Hello everyone,


    Thanks for any feedback & Happy hacking!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: hasu on Sun, 09 June 2013, 23:01:27
    agodinhost,
    PCBWing seems to be reasonable, though,
    Try chinese cheap PCB service unless you need overly quality.
    Such like elecrow.com or Fusion PCB at seeedstudio.com.
    International shipping from China or Hongkong is usually very very cheap.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 09 June 2013, 23:03:34
    The ergodox fasteners are M2.5 - 0.5 x 22 yea?
    I have a few spare bolts and nuts if you need a few. PM me.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SmallFry on Sun, 09 June 2013, 23:04:38
    .
    Double post, sorry.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 23:07:04
    I got one quote at PCBWing:
    - 2 x 184mm x 160mm is something like US$ 123,02 (US$ 62,24 per board)
    - 20 x is US$ 270,24 (US$ 13,51 per board)
    I'm choosing 10 days, the tooling is US$ 106,06 for both options above.
    The interesting thing is that after 17 boards the tooling is ZERO if you do the same order again (it's right? I'm not sure of it)
    You may be able to avoid the tooling cost, since PCBWing already made tooling for Massdrop's round 1 and likely reused it for round 2 and will retain it pending a probable round 3, which I'm pretty certain will happen sooner or later.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 09 June 2013, 23:19:31
    Hello everyone,

    • I just came across this wonderful project of yours and I was wondering if you plan any 3rd round for ErgoDox so that I could jump onto the bandwaggon, too!?
    • I read in the initial posting of this thread that a price of appox 400$ was estimated but that that could be reduced a lot if enough people participate. Could anybody please tell me what the final prices had been for round 1 and round 2?
    • In which country are the PCB printed and all the parts brought together and shipped from? Do those organizators of the project ship to the EU?

    Thanks for any feedback & Happy hacking!

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 00:05:41
    You may be able to avoid the tooling cost, since PCBWing already made tooling for Massdrop's round 1 and likely reused it for round 2 and will retain it pending a probable round 3, which I'm pretty certain will happen sooner or later.
    I'm not sure of it - we would have to use the same account/file name used by massdrop. Unless someone get this info I'm not sure if we will be able to use this "discount".

    PCBWing seems to be reasonable, though,
    Try chinese cheap PCB service unless you need overly quality.
    Such like elecrow.com or Fusion PCB at seeedstudio.com.
    International shipping from China or Hongkong is usually very very cheap.
    Hi Hasu!
    Yes, it's reasonable - I could afford 6 or 10 by this price.

    I'll try to get one quote from these ones that you did suggested.
    thanks man!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 10 June 2013, 00:21:09
    You may be able to avoid the tooling cost, since PCBWing already made tooling for Massdrop's round 1 and likely reused it for round 2 and will retain it pending a probable round 3, which I'm pretty certain will happen sooner or later.
    I'm not sure of it - we would have to use the same account/file name used by massdrop. Unless someone get this info I'm not sure if we will be able to use this "discount".

    Dunno if it makes any difference, but bpiphany did a run of these through pcbwing as well, for prototyping much earlier on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 10 June 2013, 00:29:18
    The tooling cost at pcbwing is halved for new orders when the total board area is above 1m². Tooling cost is half on re-orders if they aren't above 1m² in which case the tooling cost is zero. Larger orders are much, much, cheaper than only 2 boards... All boards have been ordered through my account at pcbwing.

    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no? Pushing for more people showing interest to them probably is a good way to get a third buy going.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 00:50:21
    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no? Pushing for more people showing interest to them probably is a good way to get a third buy going.
    Never got anything at there.
    I'm interested only at the PCB - it would be cheaper for me since I do already have all parts at here.

    Fusion PCB:
    for 20 boards (20cm x 20cm, 2 layers) it would be US$ 190,00 (US$ 9,5 per board, without shipping and proxy).

    Elecrow:
    for 50 boards (20cm x 20cm, 2 layers) it would be US$ 230,00 (US$ 4,6 per board, without shipping and proxy).

    Who wanna join me?
     :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 10 June 2013, 04:10:50
    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no? Pushing for more people showing interest to them probably is a good way to get a third buy going.
    Never got anything at there.
    I'm interested only at the PCB - it would be cheaper for me since I do already have all parts at here.

    Fusion PCB:
    for 20 boards (20cm x 20cm, 2 layers) it would be US$ 190,00 (US$ 9,5 per board, without shipping and proxy).

    Elecrow:
    for 50 boards (20cm x 20cm, 2 layers) it would be US$ 230,00 (US$ 4,6 per board, without shipping and proxy).

    Who wanna join me?
     :D

    I was not impressed with the ergodox board quality to be honest... It was ok... not bad for sure, but nothing to write home about.. the laminate wasn't as durable as I'd like.

    Granted, I was rushing through it, building it while depressed.   
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 10 June 2013, 04:30:38
    ...If you have a mac, the volume control keys already work (and have all along), but I don't recall hearing whether they work on other systems...
    They work fine for me in OSX, as you expect, but when I bootcamp into windows they do nothing, whereas my apple keyboard's volume buttons work fine. i'm not sure if this is some driver level thing in the bootcamp software though, whereby it recognises that it's an apple board and responds to that particular button press with magic. the default behaviour of the "fn" key to swap between function keys and media/os keys is controlled in the bootcamp software, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was trickery involved as it definitely has some hooks in.

    in fact, does windows actually have a concept of volume control from the keyboard, or is it just something that always needs additional drivers? my old microsoft ergo 4000 had some such keys, but also wanted to install a bunch of custom software to control it all. We might need to make our doxen pretend to be another type of board and hijack their tools, or write some driverish code to handle it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: hramrach on Mon, 10 June 2013, 05:29:46
    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no? Pushing for more people showing interest to them probably is a good way to get a third buy going.

    Since it got some keyboards shipped I guess it's good enough. It is going to save a lot on shipping costs if another batch can happen.

    You can get switches all right these days and PCBs can be made with some effort. You can print out cases and order miscellaneous electronic parts. You could probably order keycaps somewhere too. Each from different shop with separate shipping, no doubt.

    But where do you get those key holder plates made?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 10 June 2013, 08:10:31
    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no?...
    Since it got some keyboards shipped I guess it's good enough...
    i like to judge a company on how well it handles problems - it's nice when everything goes smoothly, but that doesn't always happen and different companies can display very different attitudes to resolution of issues - and so i'd say that they are doing an excellent job. i had a few parts missing from my order and found them extremely helpful getting things sorted out. they were excellent at communicating what was going on with acquiring my missing bits, and they shipped them over to the UK as they were available rather than waiting until they had everything together. that showed that they were more concerned with giving me good service, allowing me to get on with parts of the construction from the components i had available, than saving on the hefty international shipping bills. yeah, shipping should be at their expense as it was their mistake, but taking the extra hit was very customer focussed of them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Mon, 10 June 2013, 08:37:20
    I'm perfectly ok with waiting on the Massdrop round 3 to occur. It's been about three weeks since I requested at the round 2 page and there's been about 35 people that have shown interest since then. It's slowly getting up to a large enough number.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 09:32:24
    I'm perfectly ok with waiting on the Massdrop round 3 to occur. It's been about three weeks since I requested at the round 2 page and there's been about 35 people that have shown interest since then. It's slowly getting up to a large enough number.
    How much was the price of the last batch? 300 bucks?

    Here there is some risk of being charged at the customs office and whenever it happens it raises up the price of the package in 60%!

    For small packages the customs office is not a problem, most of the time the package passes by without calling attention but I guess that the size of the package sent by Massdrop is not small - so it would raise up the chances to end up nailed.

    So, let's assume US$ 300,00
               +60% = US$ 180,00
    The final price would be US$ 480,00 ...
    I pass.

    PCB x2                     => US$ 30,00
    Cherry Switches x60  => US$ 60,00 (assuming US$ 1 per switch)
    Teensy 2.0                 => US$ 30,00
    I/O Expander             => US$ 03,00
    Diodes                       => US$ 05,00
    Case                          => US$ 50,00
    Misc Parts                  => US$ 50,00
    Total                         => US$ 278,00


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 10 June 2013, 10:17:19
    I'm perfectly ok with waiting on the Massdrop round 3 to occur. It's been about three weeks since I requested at the round 2 page and there's been about 35 people that have shown interest since then. It's slowly getting up to a large enough number.
    How much was the price of the last batch? 300 bucks?

    It was $199 USD. If you wanted to add the blank black PBT DSA caps that added another $37 USD. So a total out-of-the-box complete kit ran $236 USD.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 11:17:51
    It was $199 USD. If you wanted to add the blank black PBT DSA caps that added another $37 USD. So a total out-of-the-box complete kit ran $236 USD.
    Awesome price indeed!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tarzan on Mon, 10 June 2013, 11:22:28
    I'm perfectly ok with waiting on the Massdrop round 3 to occur. It's been about three weeks since I requested at the round 2 page and there's been about 35 people that have shown interest since then. It's slowly getting up to a large enough number.
    How much was the price of the last batch? 300 bucks?

    It was $199 USD. If you wanted to add the blank black PBT DSA caps that added another $37 USD. So a total out-of-the-box complete kit ran $236 USD.

    Was that with switches, or just the PCB+case?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cpf on Mon, 10 June 2013, 11:28:54
    I'm perfectly ok with waiting on the Massdrop round 3 to occur. It's been about three weeks since I requested at the round 2 page and there's been about 35 people that have shown interest since then. It's slowly getting up to a large enough number.
    How much was the price of the last batch? 300 bucks?

    It was $199 USD. If you wanted to add the blank black PBT DSA caps that added another $37 USD. So a total out-of-the-box complete kit ran $236 USD.

    Was that with switches, or just the PCB+case?

    Switches were included, though you could opt out for a discount.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 10 June 2013, 13:56:01
    Case                          => US$ 50,00

    If you can get a case for $50, that's a really good deal (Massdrop was selling cases separately for a while after the first run for about $80, and the 3D printed case costs about $200 IIRC to get printed online).  And if you just want certain parts (everything but the case?) in a configuration not available through the order page, Massdrop would probably be willing to  give you a special order at a fair price.  They were *super* accommodating with that the first run - though I suppose it'd be safer to ask them, and make sure they didn't have to cut back on special orders on the second :)

    Edit: To clarify what I was referring to
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 14:03:50
    Also, if you can get a case for $50, that's a really good deal.  And if you just want certain parts (everything but the case?) in a configuration not available through the order page, Massdrop would probably be willing to  give you a special order at a fair price.  They were *super* accommodating with that the first run - though I suppose it'd be safer to ask them, and make sure they didn't have to cut back on special orders on the second :)
    As I said before - I never bought anything on this site.
    I'll keep an eye open there to see if I can get a decent deal.
    Just in case, who knows?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 10 June 2013, 14:46:59
    ...If you have a mac, the volume control keys already work (and have all along), but I don't recall hearing whether they work on other systems...
    They work fine for me in OSX, as you expect, but when I bootcamp into windows they do nothing, whereas my apple keyboard's volume buttons work fine. i'm not sure if this is some driver level thing in the bootcamp software though, whereby it recognises that it's an apple board and responds to that particular button press with magic. the default behaviour of the "fn" key to swap between function keys and media/os keys is controlled in the bootcamp software, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was trickery involved as it definitely has some hooks in.

    in fact, does windows actually have a concept of volume control from the keyboard, or is it just something that always needs additional drivers? my old microsoft ergo 4000 had some such keys, but also wanted to install a bunch of custom software to control it all. We might need to make our doxen pretend to be another type of board and hijack their tools, or write some driverish code to handle it.

    Hmm... I'm pretty sure (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd375731(v=vs.85).aspx) windows has the concept of volume keys (without extra drivers)... But I have no idea what kind of sneakiness is going on behind what you're observing.  Maybe with windows one has to send volume +/- as consumer keys - and maybe those keys work on macs too, in addition to the "regular" keys we're currently using. Lol, I don't really have a copy of windows I can test anything with though, and consumer key support isn't yet in rev-2.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 10 June 2013, 16:37:41
    Massdrop has been doing a good job so far, no? Pushing for more people showing interest to them probably is a good way to get a third buy going.
    Never got anything at there.
    I'm interested only at the PCB - it would be cheaper for me since I do already have all parts at here.

    They did run a separate PCB-only group buy at least during round 1, not sure if they did it again for round 2, but when they finally run a round 3, you could prolly contact them to request a PCB-only set (or several) if they don't happen to run a separate buy for them at that time.

    (BTW, I'm typing this on my new ErgoDox, was a bit slow going at first but rapidly getting up to speed, definitely liking it already... :D )
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 10 June 2013, 18:39:16
    (BTW, I'm typing this on my new ErgoDox, was a bit slow going at first but rapidly getting up to speed, definitely liking it already... :D )
    Show off!!
    I'm so envy, gosh!!!
     :)

    AHHHHH, I'm just planning myself to build something like that:
    (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94589680/20130610-utron-keyboard.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 10 June 2013, 19:18:09
    Ordering a case with one size color for inner layers and a different size/color for the outer. Probably black inner and white outer.

    What is the best size to use? Options are 1/8, 3/16, and 1/16.
    The Massdrop case uses 1/8" for the outer layers and 3/16" for the inners. Using 1/8" for the middle layer 3 (switch mounting plate) would allow room to top-mount thru-hole diodes on the PCB, but then you may need a thicker 1/4" layer 2 below that, or two 1/8" layer 2s, to allow enough room for the PCB and solder bumps.

    Would the top layer work with 1/16 or should I stick to 1/8? Worried about that little thumb cluster piece if it's too small.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 10 June 2013, 22:28:18
    guys, has there been word on a convex space bar key, that would be pretty awesome.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Wed, 12 June 2013, 16:37:17
    Hi everyone,

    First, I need to say that I've been a silent reader for months, and enjoyed it a lot. Thanks you guys!

    Now, for the issue at hand: last Friday, I received my kit from the second Massdrop batch (hapiness). I'm almost done with the assembly, all that's left for me it to solder the keyswitches on the right hand. However, I'll need help troubleshooting things. So far, I haven't read about anyone facing the same issue, so I'll try to be specific. I wanted to test the left side of the keyboard because every component is already in place (except for the keyswitches on the right side, as noted above). However, the keyboard does not register any keypress. Here is what I confirmed to work:
    - initially, the teensy USB was blinking
    - I can load a qwerty-keyboard (from the massdrop configurator) with no trouble
    - I can confirm that the right hand side of the keyboard register keypress when creating a short with a wire.
    - no keypress from the left side are registered (pressing a keyswitch or creating a short with a wire)

    It seems pretty hard to find out what wrong on the left side, and I have no clue. I tried melting some solders in case of a cold joint. I can't seem to find any part where the circuit would be broken. All the SMD, the I/O expender seems to be correctly oriented (I'll double check that). Perhaps a faulty cable, but that would be surprising.

    Any thoughts, insights or similar experience?

    Regards,
    Shad
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:24:02
    Welcome to Geekhack :) .  And thanks for a well written post.

    It sounds to me a lot like the left hand side's not getting power.  Can you confirm with a multimeter?

    Also, just to make double sure, are you plugging directly into the Teensy?  If so, that's most likely the problem, and you'll need to either solder in the USB Molex connector and use that, or put a jumper cable from the Teensy VCC pin to the USB Molex VCC.

    Other than that, if it were me, I'd start poking around randomly with a multimeter, lol.  Other people will probably have better ideas.  Design files are here (http://www.ergodox.org/Downloads/ErgoDox_PCB_Designed_by_pbiphany.zip), and a little circuit diagram is here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg) (download first, then view), if you wish to reference them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:59:34
    Some ideas:

    Did you remember to flip the diodes in the other direction for the left board? The square pads are on the opposite side from the right.
    Did you check the joints on the TRRS cables?
    Did you remember to jump the holes next to the TRRS connectors?

    Small errors, as far as I know, should only affect single key here or there, or maybe a whole row or column or something if it was a problem with the IO expander or the Teensy; I wouldn't think there would be too much that would knock out the whole left hand. Hope something in here helps!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pprjr on Wed, 12 June 2013, 22:59:01
    I am interested in a ergodox, but I do not want to assemble one, someone would be willing to sell a assembled to me or tell me where I can find to buy?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: hramrach on Thu, 13 June 2013, 09:29:22
    There is/was an assembly service offered on massdrop as well.

    Hearing about the assembly problems does not make you want to do that yourself but if you have or can borrow a soldering iron and a multimeter you should be able to make it eventually ;-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 13 June 2013, 09:36:00
    Can somebody post a right/wrong pic of how to orient the SMDs? That would be immensely helpful
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Thu, 13 June 2013, 09:54:10
    OK, I found the culprit. bisl was spot on. I forgot to flip the diodes (I don't think the build instruction clearly point out the orientation of the diodes, so I placed them all in the same direction on both sides). After ~2h30 unsoldering/resoldering, I got the left side of the keyboard to work. I also got the right one to work.  However, I found out this morning when playing with the device that multiple keypress are registered when I press any key of the left column of the right side, most likely a diode not being soldering correctly). I'm slowing getting there. I just need to reopen the keyboard tonight, and the keyboard will be fine physically and I will be able to start playing around with the keymap.

    Thank you both bisl and ic07 for your suggestions. You were both of a great help.

    Regards,
    Shad
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 13 June 2013, 12:53:05
    Can somebody post a right/wrong pic of how to orient the SMDs? That would be immensely helpful

    does zooming in on this help?

    (http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8383/8631583203_a560bf6cfb.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8631583203/)


    Line -> Square for both hands, one hand will have them the opposite direction of the other
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:15:31
    The GB is open again. Cheers
    And Im the first one in this drop. :cool:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 13 June 2013, 15:18:51
    well that was quick

    not sure if it will be successful in round 3 though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 13 June 2013, 16:26:23
    well that was quick

    not sure if it will be successful in round 3 though.
    Looks like we only need 100 buy-ins to unlock the deepest discount; wasn't that threshold more like 200 for the last couple rounds?

    BTW, looks like they recycled the original URL for this round:
    https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dgsbllx on Thu, 13 June 2013, 16:35:31
    Anyone from the UK ordered one of these from a previous Massdrop sale? The few times I've ordered from Massdrop I've been stung by customs, so just wondering if anyone from the UK can confirm their customs fees.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 13 June 2013, 17:26:58
    Lol, I'm surprised too.  But good for them :-) .  They seem to be running the buy as soon as requests have reached 1.5x the number needed for the max discount.  Wonder how they got the discount thresholds down... whether the shops they've been using are just really happy with all the business, or whether they figured they could just order the difference to ~200 kits, and sell the extras in a round 4... lol.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: william on Thu, 13 June 2013, 19:57:33
    I've been using the ergodox exclusively for several months now, and I i have two major complaints:
    1. having the keyboard split is a pain in the ass when you are using a mouse and want to hit a key that is on the side of the keyboard that the mouse hand operates.
    2. the thumb key positioning is total balls.

    if i could do it again, i would buy a point of sale matrix keyboard.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 13 June 2013, 21:10:59
    not for everyone....lol
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 14 June 2013, 02:01:11
    2. the thumb key positioning is total balls.

    I mitigated the thumb reach issue somewhat by using a DCS row 3 cap with its upper, nearly-vertical edge facing the main cluster; this puts the cap face as close as possible, and the way it slopes down towards the main cluster makes it easy and comfortable to strike glancing blows with the flank of my thumb (I may yet try a row 4 cap, which has even more of a slope).

    Quote
    if i could do it again, i would buy a point of sale matrix keyboard.

    If you go that route, you may be interested in the POS matrix layout I developed and  recently posted here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40567.msg881108#msg881108).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tadbitnerdy on Fri, 14 June 2013, 12:15:49
    Any possibility of an aluminum case only GB for the ergodox?  I'm an aluminum snob. :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 14 June 2013, 13:06:18
    Any possibility of an aluminum case only GB for the ergodox?  I'm an aluminum snob. :)

    >2013
    >aluminum
    Tungsten all the way. Titanium if has to be portable.


    But in all seriousness an aluminum case gb woulde be awesome if they were made real high quality. It would probably cost like 200 bucks though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Fri, 14 June 2013, 13:59:42
    For those of you who were like me and went, "WAIT, IT'S BACK ON?!?": https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox)

    I put my order in for one - #10!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 14 June 2013, 14:57:11
    If you guys are serious about aluminum, you could always start a poll (https://www.massdrop.com/vote/new).  :-) Don't see how it could hurt anything, anyway.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 14 June 2013, 15:31:45
    EFFF IT. Just committed to buying one at $200. Could always use a second one with different case style.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Fri, 14 June 2013, 22:00:46
    Just a small follow up. I finally got the leftmost row of the right side to work. One of the solders on a LED was to widely spread and created a short. For those with a similar issue, here was the symptoms:each keys of the colums 7 would get all the keys of its row to be registered (but not the key itself). Because the board can use SMD and "regular" diodes, I was confident that the SMD could use any of the two holes on each side without creating a short. Making the same assumption about the LEDs (i.e. the second closest hole also works the same) led me to my mistake. I hope this small explanation can help others not to reproduce the same error.

    Also, I wanted to say that I'm really impressed by the key configurator provided on the massdrop website. It makes key reconfiguration dead simple. I'm using the bépo keymap (optimized French keymap, pretty much like dvorak) and it requires some key remapping to make the default qwerty mapping saner in that configuration (namely, the right alt was not accessible).

    Regards,
    shad

    P.-S.: I typed this message using my ergodox. It takes some time to get used to, but I'm quite confident that I'll be able to type at the same speed in a matter of days (coming from a Typematrix 2030 keyboard).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 June 2013, 11:24:20
    Just a small follow up. I finally got the leftmost row of the right side to work. One of the solders on a LED was to widely spread and created a short. For those with a similar issue, here was the symptoms:each keys of the colums 7 would get all the keys of its row to be registered (but not the key itself). Because the board can use SMD and "regular" diodes, I was confident that the SMD could use any of the two holes on each side without creating a short. Making the same assumption about the LEDs (i.e. the second closest hole also works the same) led me to my mistake. I hope this small explanation can help others not to reproduce the same error.

    Also, I wanted to say that I'm really impressed by the key configurator provided on the massdrop website. It makes key reconfiguration dead simple. I'm using the bépo keymap (optimized French keymap, pretty much like dvorak) and it requires some key remapping to make the default qwerty mapping saner in that configuration (namely, the right alt was not accessible).

    Regards,
    shad

    P.-S.: I typed this message using my ergodox. It takes some time to get used to, but I'm quite confident that I'll be able to type at the same speed in a matter of days (coming from a Typematrix 2030 keyboard).

    congrats.

    I am back to 85% key speed in a week. Hopefully I will be at 100% by the end of the month.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Sat, 15 June 2013, 20:40:41
    Here's my review of the ErgoDox. It is my first time ever reviewing something. Hopefully I did the keyboard justice. Please let me know if I need to make any corrections!

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tarakan on Sat, 15 June 2013, 22:23:06
    I want to buy one.
    What do I do?
    May I come to get it and pay on the spot?
    I don't want to deal with massdrop.
    --Vladimir T.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Sat, 15 June 2013, 22:50:35
    I want to buy one.
    What do I do?
    May I come to get it and pay on the spot?
    I don't want to deal with massdrop.
    --Vladimir T.

    At this point i don't think you have other option than massdrop, else you need to fabricate parts yourself as listed on ergodox.org
    Another is to buy as used from someone who has already assembled. Or who will do that for you for a price.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 16 June 2013, 03:56:49
    Jagriff-  Nice job on  the review. Clear and thorough but concise. You do the keyboard justice without outrageous superlatives or distractions. I never understood why some reviewers feel the need to have "In a gadda da vida" blasting in the foreground as they attempt to review something. Thanks for sharing it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Sun, 16 June 2013, 18:50:59
    Do you guys think that there is enough interest for the $200 board to go through this time?

    Also how long did it take for everything to get to the buyers after the GB ended?

    Keyboard looks really good.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Sun, 16 June 2013, 19:14:55
    Do you guys think that there is enough interest for the $200 board to go through this time?

    Also how long did it take for everything to get to the buyers after the GB ended?

    Keyboard looks really good.

    I think the momentum is still good. Come join us :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sun, 16 June 2013, 21:11:02
    man i really wish massdrop offered different acrylic colors like solid black. its a shame, i really dislike the completely clear so much. The cases litster made awhile back for the filco/phantom were different colors and i really think it looks better with it layered like that, like if they made them with black top and bottom and clear center. Or maybe a whole other case option. What i'm getting at is It just sucks seeing round three with the exact same options as round 2.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 17 June 2013, 00:20:42
    Just built mine this afternoon. Totally  surprised that everything worked perfectly first time! Now to settle on a layout :-/

    I agree about alternate case colors. Clear really shows every little scratch and spec of dust.

    Still want a second one though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 17 June 2013, 00:23:20
    Speaking of which, I got the full hand case, and while I love the wrist rests, I know I'm gonna sweat all over them. Anybody got any ideas about something I can put on them to help mitigate that?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Mon, 17 June 2013, 01:16:35
    I got a decent amount of PMs saying my assembly video was not viewable. Apparently I put some music in the video which flagged the whole video as a copyright infringement, so some countries and all mobile devices cannot view the video. Sorry about that. I uploaded another one and stripped the music. This video link is not public, so it's only viewable through this GH thread:



    The original video, with music:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 17 June 2013, 08:01:46
    Speaking of which, I got the full hand case, and while I love the wrist rests, I know I'm gonna sweat all over them. Anybody got any ideas about something I can put on them to help mitigate that?

    Leeku had an attractive solution for his Ergodox like keyboard. 
     http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40880.msg813775#msg813775
    Leather could be secured with double sided tape or contact cement. A thin wood or matte finished acrylic plate could be substituted using the existing holes and screws.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 17 June 2013, 15:33:27
    man i really wish massdrop offered different acrylic colors like solid black. its a shame, i really dislike the completely clear so much. The cases litster made awhile back for the filco/phantom were different colors and i really think it looks better with it layered like that, like if they made them with black top and bottom and clear center. Or maybe a whole other case option. What i'm getting at is It just sucks seeing round three with the exact same options as round 2.

    Unfortunately since I don't have the actual PCBs I would need help testing the fit, but it's possible that I could produce some alternative colors if people were interested. I have access to 3 laser cutters at work that I have free reign with at the end of the day.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Mon, 17 June 2013, 15:43:14
    man i really wish massdrop offered different acrylic colors like solid black. its a shame, i really dislike the completely clear so much. The cases litster made awhile back for the filco/phantom were different colors and i really think it looks better with it layered like that, like if they made them with black top and bottom and clear center. Or maybe a whole other case option. What i'm getting at is It just sucks seeing round three with the exact same options as round 2.

    Unfortunately since I don't have the actual PCBs I would need help testing the fit, but it's possible that I could produce some alternative colors if people were interested. I have access to 3 laser cutters at work that I have free reign with at the end of the day.

    go to ergodox.org, they have a file for the case and PCB
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AcidFire on Mon, 17 June 2013, 15:49:19
    Unfortunately since I don't have the actual PCBs I would need help testing the fit, but it's possible that I could produce some alternative colors if people were interested. I have access to 3 laser cutters at work that I have free reign with at the end of the day.

    go to ergodox.org, they have a file for the case and PCB

    Oh I've already got all those, I'm talking more to the height of the acrylic layers since I had read that the case that was made available used 1/8" & 3/16", while I've got ready access to a variety of colors in 1/8" and clear in 1/4" (which looks slick sandwiched between the black), so I'm not sure how the height difference would work out. But like I said, if someone is willing to help me test the fit, could definitely try a couple different combos.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xman on Tue, 18 June 2013, 04:33:45
    Looking into it a little further, it seems that Plover can work without NKRO (http://plover.stenoknight.com/2011/02/plover-211-released.html), provided one is willing to "arpeggiate" the keys.  Not sure how much of a pain that might be...
    It's a big pain... It's kind of tricky and slow to do, even for testing purposes.
    My experience trying to arpeggiate was disappointing.
    (But Plover is working well for me now with a keyboard that has full NKRO.)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Tue, 18 June 2013, 10:38:49
    any key cap recommandations?
    since the dsa seems dont have the bump on 'f' and 'j'
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 18 June 2013, 11:34:17
    I really didn't like the DSA honestly, my accuracy went to complete crap. I might try them again later. Now I just need to find some DCS blank black caps with nubs :-\
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 18 June 2013, 12:48:51
    any key cap recommandations?
    since the dsa seems dont have the bump on 'f' and 'j'

    You can get dsa deep dish keys. I might have a couple spare if you can't find any elsewhere.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Tue, 18 June 2013, 12:57:15
    :O left over from the Groupbuy? where can I get those?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:11:52
    I'm going to be using 8 on my board. I think I ordered 10 or 12, if I did I'll give ya a couple.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dominicclifton on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:20:56
    Anyone from the UK ordered one of these from a previous Massdrop sale? The few times I've ordered from Massdrop I've been stung by customs, so just wondering if anyone from the UK can confirm their customs fees.

    £14.64 - delivered by royal mail.

    built mine last night.

    I was not a touch-typist before buying one. After half a day I'm finding it hard still. Re-using some of the QWERTY keys from my corsair keyboard is helping.

    I'm waiting for some vinyl stickers to arrive in the post.

    I had no problems building the keyboard apart from the diodes being really frickin' small! :D



    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:24:13
    I'm going to be using 8 on my board. I think I ordered 10 or 12, if I did I'll give ya a couple.

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:24:48
    Looking into it a little further, it seems that Plover can work without NKRO (http://plover.stenoknight.com/2011/02/plover-211-released.html), provided one is willing to "arpeggiate" the keys.  Not sure how much of a pain that might be...
    It's a big pain... It's kind of tricky and slow to do, even for testing purposes.
    My experience trying to arpeggiate was disappointing.
    (But Plover is working well for me now with a keyboard that has full NKRO.)

    Mmm, I can imagine.  Glad to hear you found something that works though :-) .  Plover looks really interesting... it's actually the first reason that I personally care about to want NKRO at all, lol.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:32:18
    Just a small follow up. I finally got the leftmost row of the right side to work. One of the solders on a LED was to widely spread and created a short. For those with a similar issue, here was the symptoms:each keys of the colums 7 would get all the keys of its row to be registered (but not the key itself). Because the board can use SMD and "regular" diodes, I was confident that the SMD could use any of the two holes on each side without creating a short. Making the same assumption about the LEDs (i.e. the second closest hole also works the same) led me to my mistake. I hope this small explanation can help others not to reproduce the same error.

    Also, I wanted to say that I'm really impressed by the key configurator provided on the massdrop website. It makes key reconfiguration dead simple. I'm using the bépo keymap (optimized French keymap, pretty much like dvorak) and it requires some key remapping to make the default qwerty mapping saner in that configuration (namely, the right alt was not accessible).

    Regards,
    shad

    P.-S.: I typed this message using my ergodox. It takes some time to get used to, but I'm quite confident that I'll be able to type at the same speed in a matter of days (coming from a Typematrix 2030 keyboard).

    congrats.

    I am back to 85% key speed in a week. Hopefully I will be at 100% by the end of the month.


    bro you need some of these.....

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44906.new#new

    might not help you type faster but it'll complement your favorite keyboard!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 18 June 2013, 13:47:53
    Once again, I'm sorry if this has been done to death, but I was wondering if anybody knew of some rubber feet that would fit the ErgoDox fasteners. Right now this thing is sliding all around my desk
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 18 June 2013, 14:42:57
    :O left over from the Groupbuy? where can I get those?

    Leftovers here

     http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44841.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 18 June 2013, 16:06:40
    [GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: damorgue on Tue, 18 June 2013, 16:22:36
    [GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912

    Those are a different material, different colour, and the ergodox doesn't use any ISO keys, does it?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 18 June 2013, 17:49:36
    [GB] DSA Dolch ISO + Expansions/RGBY/Blank Sets
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912

    Those are a different material, different colour, and the ergodox doesn't use any ISO keys, does it?

    That groupbuy is for more then ISO kits.
    please look at the blank kits
    If you buy a tenkeyless base kit plus a ergodox addon you will have a complete kit for a ergodox for hopefully every layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Tue, 18 June 2013, 19:31:04
    I just done with my install and the right hand side with the teensy, all the keys work fine. On the left hand side none of them do. I did some basic testing for continuity and when I press down a key on the left it does connect to pins on the teensy so now I am really confused. I noiced some others had issues on the MD forums not having one hand working but they didn't say what fixed it. Anyone got any suggestions?

    Thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Tue, 18 June 2013, 22:01:10
    @BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
    - you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
    - you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
    - you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

    You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

    Regards,
    Shad
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:46:22
    so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
    it has been changed to a complete kit!
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/9084286397_15b4fbd512_o.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:56:10
    so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
    it has been changed to a complete kit!
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

    Show Image
    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/9084286397_15b4fbd512_o.jpg)


    I am in if enough people join the group buy! <--- looking at the lowest price tag
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:04:29
    if everyone waits for others to join then the prices will never get lower.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:45:34
    First off, this is super cool. I love diy electronics, and a full blown diy mechanical keyboard is sweet.

    Here's an off the wall idea I had:

    What do you guys think it would take to make this puppy light up? From what I know about backlit keyboards, the light is created from an led strip or other similar device along the edge. If keys light up, it's because they have clear centers. This is speculation based on some threads I read about replacing the leds of a backlit keyboard. I have never disassembled one in person.

    I've messed with custom led stuff before, and the key is to diffuse the light. If you shinned an LED onto the edge of this guy, since the whole thing is clear acrylic, you could potential make the entire keyboard glow (assuming it diffused some of the light off imperfections in the material). You could also just be putting the light straight through it, so only the far edge glows. I don't know, because I don't have one.

    Any thoughts?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 19 June 2013, 17:19:03
    First off, this is super cool. I love diy electronics, and a full blown diy mechanical keyboard is sweet.

    :) Welcome to Geekhack!

    Here's an off the wall idea I had:

    What do you guys think it would take to make this puppy light up? From what I know about backlit keyboards, the light is created from an led strip or other similar device along the edge. If keys light up, it's because they have clear centers. This is speculation based on some threads I read about replacing the leds of a backlit keyboard. I have never disassembled one in person.

    I've messed with custom led stuff before, and the key is to diffuse the light. If you shinned an LED onto the edge of this guy, since the whole thing is clear acrylic, you could potential make the entire keyboard glow (assuming it diffused some of the light off imperfections in the material). You could also just be putting the light straight through it, so only the far edge glows. I don't know, because I don't have one.

    Any thoughts?

    I think there's room under the PCB for 3mm LEDs (I don't have my kit together yet, so I haven't tested it) if you wanted the light to shine out from under the PCB.  Alternately, I suppose you could drill out some space from wherever you wanted.  Or, with care, you might be able to put an LED under each key, and route the leads under the switch (but on top of the PCB).

    You should be able to pull power from the Teensy's VCC and GND without a problem, if you just wanted the LEDs to be constantly on (or if you wanted to implement your own dimming and switching).  If you wanted them dimmable in software, things would be a little more tricky...  you'd have to either reroute one of the indicator LEDs, or use one of unused PWM capable pins, limit yourself to 20mA (IIRC) total from that pin, and make some minor (but probably tedious) modifications to the firmware.

    I imagine, whatever you did, it would take a good bit of patience to make sure you were getting the effect you wanted.  Might look pretty cool though :) .  Haven't seen anyone try it yet.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Wed, 19 June 2013, 17:47:05
    Hmm. LED's have a very narrow angle from which the actually produce light. I think drilling into the sides and placing the LED's horizontally would probably be the best way to get light in. Besides, if you could get the entire layer above the pcb to glow, it would outline each key, and that's cool.

    Power is an issue, but worst case, you have to plug your keyboard into the wall to make it glow.

    Honestly, my biggest fear is packaging. I know I could make it glow, I don't know if I could make it look good once I'm done. Putting the led's under the pcb would be the best place to hide them, and some small wiring. It's been implied that the pcb is raised above the bottom layer a bit. Is that true?

    EDIT: Here's my best idea on how to design a backlit ErgoDox. Get my hands on a different mechanical, backlit keyboard. That will give me a few things:

    1) The keys, and the switches. I could save some $$ from the cost of the ErgoDox
    2) I would be able to rip something apart, and see how it's done. How does the inside of the key glow? Does the light travel all the way through the switch? Do they light above or below the pcb?

    The ErgoDox pcb already has holes in it for the switches to move, and a few other round holes that I'm guessing are part of the manufacturing. Given enough light, I should get enough escaping through all those holes to get the desired effect, but it'll take some experimentation.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 19 June 2013, 18:08:21
    Mhm.  There's the plate layer (sandwiched between the switches and the PCB) then a 3/16" spacer layer between that and the bottom layer (to allow room for the through hole solder joints).  The PCB looks to be about 1/16", so there should be a little room in there.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 19 June 2013, 19:53:53
    I am in if enough people join the group buy! <--- looking at the lowest price tag
    if everyone waits for others to join then the prices will never get lower.
    You can click "Commit to join at $199" if you will only buy at that price point; this helps push the buy-in volume towards that point, but you will not be obligated to buy if that goal isn't reached.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 19 June 2013, 20:42:15
    @BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
    - you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
    - you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
    - you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

    You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

    Regards,
    Shad

    F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

    Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Wed, 19 June 2013, 21:42:33
    @BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
    - you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
    - you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
    - you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

    You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

    Regards,
    Shad

    F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

    Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

    For the smd reflow, think about oven.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:18:04
    @BlueByLiquid: a few reason for your left side not functioning come to my mind:
    - you powered the teensy directly through the USB, and did not powered the board correctly (by soldering and connecting the USB port to it)
    - you soldered the diode on the left board on the wrong direction. It happened to me. They must be on the opposite direction of the right board. I can create a short on the diode and press the key to check if this is the case (if the key registers, then it's probably a diode issue).
    - you forgot to solder the jumper on the side of the jack connector

    You may also want to read ic07 and bisl posts on page 81 when they helped me troubleshooting the exact same issue.

    Regards,
    Shad

    F**** it was the diodes. Thanks for pointing me back at this. I knew I was going to mess this up. I know what the MD site said about it being near the square pin but since I was doing the SMB's both pins were square so I thought I looked at WhiteFireDragon's video and I could swear he put them the same way on both sides(obviously not).

    Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

    he has a really nice expensive hot air station.

    edit: check out this other thread on soldering. they discuss hot air and all kinds of cool stuff in it....
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:39:50

    For the smd reflow, think about oven.

    I have heard several friends mention using toaster ovens. I actually found that the soldering iron worked fine and I should have just used it first because it was quite quick to just go straight down each side then flip it over and do the next side.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:44:31

    he has a really nice expensive hot air station.

    edit: check out this other thread on soldering. they discuss hot air and all kinds of cool stuff in it....
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0
    [/quote]

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:51:06
    Thought I would put up a review. I use the Kinesis contoured at work and at home and many other keyboards but the Kinesis ones are 80% of my work.

    For my version I have
    - MX Blues
    - DCS Keycaps
    - I bought the spherical home row keycaps from one of the group buys on GH recently
    - Full hand version.

    COMMENTS:
    - First: I REALLY like this set and my comments below while they might be negative don't change the fact that I really like it.

    - MD instructions are not the best and I think they could really improve. I think now that I have it built I could easily build it in 2-2 1/2 hours but it took much longer as I constantly rewound WhiteFireDragon's video because I didn't understand something on MD site or I couldn't see it very well. Thank goodness for the high res video.

    - MD has been great throughout the process with the parts that are problematic.

    CASE:
    - The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

    - Both my original and replacement have scraps on them. I think I will order top pieces in a solid color as I really don't like the look with all the scratches on the acrylic.

    - I knew this ahead of time but I don't really like the block-y look of the hand shape. This is personal preference though. I think when I make new ones I will do something different.

    - You need to get some rubber feet or you will scratch your desk up with the bolts sticking through.

    - Good hand shape but the thumbs are just wrong (This isn't because they are too low. I will explain more in the layout section).

    KEYCAPS (I bought both the DSA and DCS keycaps but only looked at the DCS ones)
    - I haven't bought good keycaps before so I don't know the normal quality. These seem fine but they have a few plastic edges and areas where the paint/dye doesn't seem perfectly smooth. When it’s together you can't tell at all so it really doesn't matter.

    - These area a PAIN to put together. I really didn’t think this would be tough but I spent about 2 hours getting them together. Also you really need a keycap puller. I used another tool that looks similar but it would often pull up the top of the switch. These keycaps are TIGHT and require considerable force to push on.

    - They are very SOLID

    SWITCHES:
    - They are MX Blue switches (without built in diodes) so nothing different from standard ones. Well other than the fact that they were pretty cheap.

    BOARD:
    - The board build quality is decent but nothing to write home about.
    - Blue color is nice and looks good.
    - I personally don't like the giant "ERGODOX" logo but that is opinion. Also it is only half visible so it looks kind of tacky to me but again personal opinion.

    LAYOUT:
    - Hmmm. Well it is great and really bad at the same time. :)

    - MAIN SECTION (GREAT): The keys are well layered out in the main section where the home row is. Keys fit pretty tightly but plenty of room to slightly move around. Good feel I think for big or small hands. You have to move much more than a Kinesis but that is to be expected.

    - THUMB AREA (BAD BAD!): The thumb area is simply too close to the top. I have very large hands and it is a serious strain to reach these keys. They need to be moved down and they should probably be raised up. I have a VERY simple solution for this below in the suggestions. It’s great that it is open source so we can make these changes. This is so much of an ergonomic issue as you have to move your wrist to hit most of the keys and I can't risk messing up my hands as I have already had so many RSI issues and moving the wrist is my big issue.

    - I really really miss the extra row of dedicated function keys. You can't really add them in this design if you want it to be ergonomic but I really really miss them. I know I miss them because I miss the Kinesis horrible squishy keys and those are bad. I may get used to it but at the very least I will need side labels to remember where they are on the second layer.

    CABLES:
    - This layout is BEGGING for right angle 3.5mm connectors. They stick out as is and make it a mess to worry about the wires.

    - The cables get in the way more than I thought.

    TOOL/PARTS FOR ASSEMBLY:

    Note: this is my recommendation you can certainly do with less

    1. Decent soldering iron. You really do need a decent one or this will take a while. I use the FX-888D at home but there are other great ones.
    2. Solder paste: (if you are using SMD diodes). You can use solder but you will need a pointy tip to make it easily plus the paste makes it easier to hold the SMDs in place until you can heat them. By the way if you need it now Frys, MicroCenter have this in stock. Also note The HACK (Radio Hack) doesn't have it anymore.
    3. 45 degree Tweezers: IF you are using the SMD or anything really small you need these anyway. Just go get them. Note they may not be called tweezers but that is all I can think of right now.
    4. Keycap Puller: if you are using these keycaps they are really tight. Also you will probably put them down in the wrong spot if you are using the DCS ones and have to move them around.
    5. Solder: Obviously. Get some good solder because you will be soldering a lot.
    6. Wire cutter: You need one meant for cutting very close to the board to make it all fit (especially if you are using through hole diodes) and at least a decent one as you will be cutting a fair amount of wires. Not tons.
    7. I'm probably not thinking of something

    TIPS:
    - When using SMDs: put your solderpaste on the pin and then move towards the through hole diode pin so that you don't get the paste under the smd. This will make it much quicker as you can be less precise. When I resoldered one had it took almost no time using this method.

    - Use a soldering near the paste to harden it not a heat gun. I know WhiteFireDragon use some sort of heat gun but even my low flow one would move these extremely light parts. You could probably use the toaster oven reflow method if you did this first.

    - Use purel or some hand sanitizer to clear your hand plates. Mine came and they were very dirty (I don't know how as they were covered in paper but they were). This will clean them up and should evaporate fast enough to leave no moisture even if you don't get them 120% dry.

    CONCLUSIONS:
    - IT is a great design. It needs some fixing I think to make it truly ergonomic.
    - I really really like it.

    SUGGESTIONS
    1. Move the thumb section it simply requires too much wrist movement to be ergonomic. (See my recommendation below)

    2. Elevate the thumb section a small amount. (Seem my recommendation below)

    3. Backlighting: This set is begging to be backlit. I would really like to do this myself as I have been backlighting another keyboard that wasn't designed to be backlit. Since we have the PCB this job should be relatively easily and really just a case of board layout. If anyone is interested I have some ideas on how to drive this and some low (relatively) cost boards for handling dimming/individual addressing of leds, balancing, etc.

    3.Get right angle 3.5mm cables to reduce cable clutter and management issues. (you can do this now).

    THUMB KEYS MODIFICATION (PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG):
    - Since this is a 2 layer simple board I think you can cut the current board into two pieces and connect them with wire. In future PCB revisions make holes for the 12 wires on either side of the area to cut. Or make two boards but that drives up the cost.

    - Create a new Second layer of acrylic that is similar to the third layer currently but only for the thumbs. Then you can just have the keys raised up a small amount. You could actually repeat this until you have them as high as you want with little change to the current board.

    - Provide two (or more) recommended second layer acrylic designs which allow for the user to put the keys where she/he wants them. This should not drive the cost up too much at all.

    - I really thing the above solutions would require little work and am interested in feedback. It seems like the biggest complaint is the thumb section and I think you can fix it with maybe $2 in wire and $15-20 in new acrylic for the new second layer. In fact I would imagine someone could easily cut the current board to do this.

    - I hope this was helpful and please give me feedback especially on the thumb section and backlighting modification sections.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Wed, 19 June 2013, 23:47:36
    Great review! I personally also have large hands and think the thumb clusters are just fine, but that's probably because I'm only using the 2x keys (which are much easier to hit than the 1x keys).

    I used a Hako FX888D with the stock tip it came with for the SMDs (at 700°F). The first PCB was super slow going, but on the second one I got a good rhythm going and got all the SMDs on there in about 45min. It was super fun putting it together and I was surprised that everything worked on the first try.

    And if you can find a dual right-angle TRRS 3.5mm cable anywhere, please let us know! I've been looking for almost a week now, the closest I can find is a right-angle to straight cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:23:44
    quite a write up

    The smd diodes were pretty easy to solder in with just a normal iron and solder, ive already built two of these things

    i think the thumb cluster is fine... i don't think it needs any modification.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:26:42
    I'm interested in the backlighting, too. I know the switches already have the space to house the led's, so I was going to take a stab at wiring the led's under the board. There are no through holes for them, so I think you could just bend the leads down the side of the switch, and under the board. The wiring will look like a rat nest, but it'll work. You're right, a simple board update could add the traces necessary to connect the LED's.

    I have no idea what's a good option for actually driving the LED's. That's something I've never messed with before. What are your recommendations?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:35:16
    - MD instructions are not the best and I think they could really improve. I think now that I have it built I could easily build it in 2-2 1/2 hours but it took much longer as I constantly rewound WhiteFireDragon's video because I didn't understand something on MD site or I couldn't see it very well. Thank goodness for the high res video.

    BlueByLiquid, nice detailed writeup on your building experiences. I fully agree that the building instructions on MassDrop are lacking a bit. If you have experiences with electronics, then it's not too bad, but it's not very newb-friendly. Some steps are even omitted. They actually do have their own video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr-HtX-aaA), but the whole process was sped through in less than 1 minute of just snapshots from far away. It doesn't help at all for assembly.


    Quote
    CASE:
    - The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

    The case for the one I built also came with these defects. It had burn marks and was slightly melted in that area. One of the holes in one layer was not aligned properly, so the screw can't go through.


    Quote
    Speaking of that anyone know how WhiteFireDragon used a heat gun to melt the solder paste? I tried that and I have a low flow heat gun but it still moved the little SMBs all over the place. I just use the iron and it worked fine.

    You can't just use any heat gun. The one I used was from a Aoyue 2702A+ rework station. It has temperature control and you can also regulate the air flow, depending which part you're soldering. If you have a heatgun that does not have these two options, or temps/air flow is not in the range for electronics, then it won't be suitable for solder reflow.


    PS - the diodes are SMT or SMD (surface-mounted device). No such thing is SMB  ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:59:19
    I enjoyed the write up too.

    Your opinion on the thumb cluster is interesting.  I'm with Glod and Daerid (and presumably Dox, since he did change the position of the cluster once, during early prototyping) and I like it great as is (though, it would be nice to have an extra key on the inside).  I think I remember there being a communal rant about the thumb cluster a little while ago too, but I'm sure they wanted it moved closer in, which sounds different than what you're suggesting.  It almost makes me think there was a reason behind assigning both thumbs to just the space bar on a normal keyboard, lol, since the position of the thumb cluster seems to be one of the most controversial ergonomic considerations.

    About backlighting, just as an ancillary comment: if the controllers you're thinking about could be controlled via I2C that would make it convenient for anyone wanting to manipulate them in the firmware.  I've thought about how fun it'd be to have an individually addressable (RGB!) LED under each key... but I think it'd be a little past my threshold of inconvenience to actually do it, lol.

    About right angle 3.5mm TRRS cables: I suppose you could make your own...  A quick web search turned up these (http://www.showmecables.com/product/3-5mm-Plug-TRRS-Right-Angle-Connector-Plastic.aspx?gclid=CKueuMv38bcCFcij4AodaDsAHw).  Kind of expensive :/ and per the 1 review they might be kind of a pain to use... but they look like they might work...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 01:45:41
    Amazon has right angle adapters, but that'd make the whole thing rather clunky
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:20:13
    I am currently doing another keyboard lighting project (I will hopefully be done with soon). I am using the Colorduino board. It can control 64RGB leds, or 192 single LEDs. It can be controlled over I2C over usb (which is my goal as I am having OS integration so that I can display things on the keys. It is also a fully arduino board so you can manage a lot on it alone. It manages everything for you so all you have to set in code is the rgb value or the brightness for the led.  One example I have been doing is displaying processor usage by lighting up the 0-9 keys. there are a lot of neat things you can do once you have this level of control and can interface with the computer.

    Also I have a prototype RGB one. I have heard people don't think this is possible because you of RGB diodes only coming in 5mm, which is true but I made a test version that works with surface mount RGB led and it works well. You can either dremel the keys or mount them slightly at an angle on the pcb and they work great. I need to make a board as no one in their right mind would solder that many points. I am actually most exited about the rgb part as you can do so much awesome stuff when you have full color.

    They have risers on the board but if those are soldered it could easily fit in the open space of the full hand version of the ergodox.

    I have gotten them as lot a $11 but they are normally about $20. I reacently got mine at HobbyKing http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26845__colorduino_v2_0_rgb_led_matrix_driver.html




    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:21:24
    Amazon has right angle adapters, but that'd make the whole thing rather clunky
    Well I may just make my own cable using right angle adapters that you can solder you own cable into. Anyone who could make the ergodox should be able to make their own cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:23:14
    I enjoyed the write up too.

    Your opinion on the thumb cluster is interesting.  I'm with Glod and Daerid (and presumably Dox, since he did change the position of the cluster once, during early prototyping) and I like it great as is (though, it would be nice to have an extra key on the inside).  I think I remember there being a communal rant about the thumb cluster a little while ago too, but I'm sure they wanted it moved closer in, which sounds different than what you're suggesting.

    I may not have said it right. I think we are talking about the same thing. Basically on the full hand move the cluster toward the typer which would move it in as that part is angled.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:40:19
    Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here, (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527)
    including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:

    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=17869;image)

    I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

    I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 02:55:44
    Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here, (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527)
    including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:

    Show Image
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=17869;image)


    I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

    I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!

    Yes I like one but I think it might be better to make the design so it can be moved liked I mentioned. If we can keep it seperate and just add a could of new board spots we can have several different 2nd layer acrilic sheets and you pick the one you want. That way people can keep it as is or move it and just use one different layer and wire to connect the split PCB
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 20 June 2013, 03:05:09
    If you tent the keyboard you won't feel the need to raise the thumbs as much. I keep my halves tented each at about 40° from horizontal. I also installed a Kinesis ceycap set, which has pretty tall thumb keys. But sure, adding holes in the PCB and making the traces wider to survive a cut for those who want to go that route is not a bad idea, but I don't see many people doing it. So moving the thumbclusters closer, is more realistic and achievable goal if the community can reach some consensus.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:03:43
    so this is what kit 6 - ergodox complete kit looks like in the dolch blanks groupbuy
    it has been changed to a complete kit!
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

    Show Image
    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2885/9084286397_15b4fbd512_o.jpg)


    except that's not dsa, it's dcs..

    you're getting DSA, so it'll look pricklier
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: damorgue on Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:43:34
    - The acrylic manufacture must be pretty poor. When I got mine they were burned and several pieces of plastic had huge chips/deformations. I got a second set after sending MD the pictures and this set the holes were too small on a few of the layers for the screws to go through.

    Whoa, mine also had scorch marks and I had to drill the holes a bit to make all the screws pass through. The scorch marks are however very hard to fix. I figured it would be impossible to get a a couple of new acrylic plates sent by them. It is too late now to change the middle plate as everything is soldered, but unless sandblasting the entire thing matte doesn't help, I may contact them to exchange some of the other layers. Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 20 June 2013, 10:48:28
    Nice writeu, .BlueByLiquid. The thumb clusters need to move indeed. I posted about it here, (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844527#msg844527)
    including a gimp'ed photo to show 2 possible options for moving them:

    Show Image
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=17869;image)


    I guess you would be in favor of option 1 (left photo) that moves the clusters toward the user as well outward, toward the hands. I was leaning toward option 2 (right photo) which however involves making the bottom inner row key a 1x1 key, moved up a bit as you can see in the photo, to make room for the thumbclusters to move outward toward the hands only (but not toward the user). Either of these options would be an ergonomic improvement.

    I never heard from Dox regarding moving the thumbclusters, even though I tried to contact him. bpiphany and litster both told me they could make the necessary modifications to the pcb and case respectively, provided the community agreed... but Dox should bless it too!

    I agree with the idea of moving the thumb cluster.  My thoughts were to move it down one full unit, so the top of the top row is where the top of the 2 unit thumb keys are now.  If that makes sense.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:19:11
    I am currently doing another keyboard lighting project (I will hopefully be done with soon). I am using the Colorduino board. It can control 64RGB leds, or 192 single LEDs. It can be controlled over I2C over usb (which is my goal as I am having OS integration so that I can display things on the keys. It is also a fully arduino board so you can manage a lot on it alone. It manages everything for you so all you have to set in code is the rgb value or the brightness for the led.  One example I have been doing is displaying processor usage by lighting up the 0-9 keys. there are a lot of neat things you can do once you have this level of control and can interface with the computer.

    Also I have a prototype RGB one. I have heard people don't think this is possible because you of RGB diodes only coming in 5mm, which is true but I made a test version that works with surface mount RGB led and it works well. You can either dremel the keys or mount them slightly at an angle on the pcb and they work great. I need to make a board as no one in their right mind would solder that many points. I am actually most exited about the rgb part as you can do so much awesome stuff when you have full color.

    They have risers on the board but if those are soldered it could easily fit in the open space of the full hand version of the ergodox.

    I have gotten them as lot a $11 but they are normally about $20. I reacently got mine at HobbyKing http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26845__colorduino_v2_0_rgb_led_matrix_driver.html

    Doing the surface mount LED's by hand is super tedious. What about bi-color leds? A red/blue tri lead led could produce red, blue, and a whole variety of purples. It's also effectively 2 leds, so a single colorduino could drive 96 of them (right?). There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't. Bi's also come in 3mm packages, so it solves the surface mount issue.

    This sounds like something I would like to try out. I would obviously have to solder the matrix myself. Do you know of any resources that outline how to do that? I've seen a ton of examples with already done RGB matrixes, but this isn't the same, and those are only using it, not building it.

    EDIT: Not sure if all 3 pins for bi color LEDs will fit through the MX switches. The LED is a 3mm package, but the leads are wider.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:52:27
    There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't.

    But the ErgoDox only has 38 (or up to 40) keys per hand (so, only 76 to 80 keys total, even though there are 84 positions in a 6x14 matrix; small correction), and unless you're planning to bring half the LED matrix over with a ribbon cable or something similar, you'll need a colorduino for each hand anyway.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:26:55
    Instead of using angled TRRS connectors to save space, how about instead using a single forked cable for both USB and I2C?
    Then there would be one cable from each half-keyboard that would meet somewhere hidden away behind the computer screen. The left board could get its +5V and GND directly from USB, so you would need only six lines in the cable to the right keyboard. I have been thinking of making both forks identical and using 6-pin mini-DIN but there might be another connector that is nicer.

    This would of course mean that you would lose the ability to just unplug the ErgoDox and plug in another keyboard on the same mini-USB cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:51:04
    I'm wondering with all this discussion right now if there should be a new ErgoDox v2.0 thread created focused on a new design. I personally think the design is almost perfect...but the project is open source after all, jump on it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:55:22
    Maybe a lower thumb cluster if you ask me...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Thu, 20 June 2013, 14:56:44
    Yes, it would require at least 8 wires to go between the two halves. I would rather do that than have each half work independently, but I can see the advantages of both.

    For anyone who's wondering, here's a schematic of the led matrix: http://tronixstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/pinouts.jpg

    The 8x8 rgb grid is arrange to address each anode and cathode (8 pins for the cathodes, 24 pins (8x3) for the anodes). If I changed that to say 8x12 for bicolor, it would still be 8 pins for the cathodes, and 24 pins (12x2) for the anodes. That's 48 led's per side, and (like I said before), 8 wires between each half.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:15:12
    Doing the surface mount LED's by hand is super tedious. What about bi-color leds? A red/blue tri lead led could produce red, blue, and a whole variety of purples. It's also effectively 2 leds, so a single colorduino could drive 96 of them (right?). There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't. Bi's also come in 3mm packages, so it solves the surface mount issue.

    This sounds like something I would like to try out. I would obviously have to solder the matrix myself. Do you know of any resources that outline how to do that? I've seen a ton of examples with already done RGB matrixes, but this isn't the same, and those are only using it, not building it.

    EDIT: Not sure if all 3 pins for bi color LEDs will fit through the MX switches. The LED is a 3mm package, but the leads are wider.

    If you use surface mount or two color LEDs you need to dremel out the light sections either way. This is because Cherry MX switchs only have two holes for pins (They have the wide open area but below there are only two holes that lead out of the switch. When you dremel that piece out you can widen the hole a fair bit without causing damage to the switch (at least not that I could see).

    I think it would be a bit tedious but not to bad if you use solder paste for the surface mount parts. Obviously these size RGB LEDs have close pins and you would definitely want the 4pin ones NOT the 6 pin ones because that is more soldering.

    As for the number of lights yes you can do that as each channel is controlled separately. But the great thing about Colorduinos is that they can accept and forward I2C on so you can chain them to control as many colorduinos as you want you just need two or more boards. They are pretty nice.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:16:55
    Yes, it would require at least 8 wires to go between the two halves. I would rather do that than have each half work independently, but I can see the advantages of both.

    For anyone who's wondering, here's a schematic of the led matrix: http://tronixstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/pinouts.jpg

    The 8x8 rgb grid is arrange to address each anode and cathode (8 pins for the cathodes, 24 pins (8x3) for the anodes). If I changed that to say 8x12 for bicolor, it would still be 8 pins for the cathodes, and 24 pins (12x2) for the anodes. That's 48 led's per side, and (like I said before), 8 wires between each half.

    If you use two colorduinos you can connect them via I2C so that should be less wires.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Maxrunner on Thu, 20 June 2013, 19:07:34
    I'm considering buying an ergodox but i don't like full acrylic style as its on sale at massdrop. Does anyone here sell metal plates?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 20:44:34
    As for the placement of the thumb keys I thought rather than say "I like it here" or "no that sucks" we could get at least a little bit scientific-ish. So I took pictures of my hand touching all the keys with my thumb and I hope more people can also do this also. I also made it into a gif using gifninja so that I didn't have to post it anywhere on my own.

    I also touched 3 places where keys would be if they were 3 keys directly below the thumb keys.

    The big issue for RSI that we should be looking to prevent with the keyboard is the sharp angle of the wrist when stretching but these photos are to help determine these or other issues and where the best fit is. Please do this if you can (Even if you like ergodox as it is) so we can evaluate the general positions of peoples wrists and hands. You can see where the issues are in my gif below:

    (http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/657689/ergodox-wrist-action-for-thumb-section.gif)

    Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:19:32
    i don't use my thumb for those 8 keys, i use my index finger as they are assigned to things that would usually not be part of the main typing area like home/end/pageup/pagedown  why would you need to touch those with your thumb? there is nothing not ergonomic about using my index fingers to press those unless your wrists are tied down the desk
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:28:09
    i don't use my thumb for those 8 keys, i use my index finger as they are assigned to things that would usually not be part of the main typing area like home/end/pageup/pagedown  why would you need to touch those with your thumb? there is nothing not ergonomic about using my index fingers to press those unless your wrists are tied down the desk

    ???
    I think there is some confusion here. I am talking about the 6 keys where your thumb touches. I think there is obviously some intercommunication as you even have your thumb on them in your avatar. One of the key benfits of designs like this is that you never have to move your arm or wrists so why you certainly could move your entire have without bending it to use your index fingers it seems odd. Also I would think one would but backspace/space there which are very common keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:43:21
    BlueByLiquid-  I think your thumb cluster ideas have merit. I've been working on a thumb cluster modification that echo your concerns. I'll post a drawing soon.

    I think Glod was referring to the 8-1x1 caps only.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:53:36
    Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.

    I don't have an ErgoDox, but just looking at your pictures, It seems
    that you should be rotating the keyboard clockwise by 30+ degrees
    relative to your hand.  It looks like your fingers finally are lined-up
    with the columns on the keyboard when you're at maximum twist
    with your thumbs on the inner-most keys. 

    Wouldn't that go a long ways to addressing the issue you're
    concerned about? Does that work or not work for some reason?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Thu, 20 June 2013, 21:55:04
    Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.

    I don't have an ErgoDox, but just looking at your pictures, It seems
    that you should be rotating the keyboard clockwise by 30+ degrees
    relative to your hand.  It looks like your fingers finally are lined-up
    with the columns on the keyboard when you're at maximum twist
    with your thumbs on the inner-most keys. 

    Wouldn't that go a long ways to addressing the issue you're
    concerned about? Does that work or not work for some reason?
    I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized something. Whenever you rest on the homerow, having your pinky match the other three fingers causes your hand to tilt. An interesting idea would be to rest the pinky on the row below the home row. I may try that out by shifting that whole column of keys down one in the firmware.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 20 June 2013, 22:12:24
    I took similar pics (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg765195#msg765195) a while ago, for just a slightly different reason.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Thu, 20 June 2013, 23:13:11
    As for the placement of the thumb keys I thought rather than say "I like it here" or "no that sucks" we could get at least a little bit scientific-ish. So I took pictures of my hand touching all the keys with my thumb and I hope more people can also do this also. I also made it into a gif using gifninja so that I didn't have to post it anywhere on my own.

    I also touched 3 places where keys would be if they were 3 keys directly below the thumb keys.

    The big issue for RSI that we should be looking to prevent with the keyboard is the sharp angle of the wrist when stretching but these photos are to help determine these or other issues and where the best fit is. Please do this if you can (Even if you like ergodox as it is) so we can evaluate the general positions of peoples wrists and hands. You can see where the issues are in my gif below:

    Show Image
    (http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/657689/ergodox-wrist-action-for-thumb-section.gif)


    Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.

    My personal take on this is that you need to tent and tilt your keyboard. My wrists are relatively straight in this set up.

    There have also been a few people I let try my ergodox when I met up with them. I let them try it with and without tenting. Within that 10 seconds, unsolicited, their comments have been that even a slight tenting angles makes a huge difference.

    Before I started using the ergodox I was have problems with my wrists from typing up to 8 hours a day. After I got the ergodox, it improved slightly. Then I tented it, the improvement was even more significant. A few weeks later when I got the kinesis v3s to achieve an adjustable tenting system (thanks to Glod's reccomendation), I'm basically able to sit and type for longer than that 8 hours (with small breaks in between of course) or longer, and not have any more problems with my wrist.

    Picture's worth a thousand words.

    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/9098681668_8ed54740fb_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/9098681668/)

    There's a video of typing on the ergodox I made on request of another forumer, which might help to show what I mean.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44485.0

    Unfortunately the video's cut off above the wrist, but the picture above is exactly how it looks when I'm typing normally.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 21 June 2013, 03:30:36
    yep, tenting and tilt makes a huge difference

    (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3778/9099767128_a9d9098652.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9099767128/)

    (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5465/9097531317_720e674dc0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9097531317/)

    adjustable tenting is nice too, i havent modified this yet so right now it has less slope than i want to set it to
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 21 June 2013, 12:48:59
    BlueByLiquid-  I think your thumb cluster ideas have merit. I've been working on a thumb cluster modification that echo your concerns. I'll post a drawing soon.

    I think Glod was referring to the 8-1x1 caps only.

    Will be interested to see what you do! :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 21 June 2013, 12:53:15
    Notice how for me the top top keys and the middle one on the right cause considerable bending/stretching of the wrist. I hope many of you can do the same! Thanks.

    I don't have an ErgoDox, but just looking at your pictures, It seems
    that you should be rotating the keyboard clockwise by 30+ degrees
    relative to your hand.  It looks like your fingers finally are lined-up
    with the columns on the keyboard when you're at maximum twist
    with your thumbs on the inner-most keys. 

    Wouldn't that go a long ways to addressing the issue you're
    concerned about? Does that work or not work for some reason?

    It has to do with the position of the home row. You can see in some of the other people's pictures that their hands tend to set similar to mine.

    I agree tenting helps some but mine is also tented and I am working on making it more tented.

    Based on the two other photos it looks like people's hands rest toward the inside lower section so I will wait to see more photos but I think it looks like moving the top 2 keys below would be better and maybe even the top right key.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: GGLucas on Fri, 21 June 2013, 13:32:13
    .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:46:25
    First, it's great to see someone who took the time to debug it all the way down to that line of code, lol - thanks :-) .

    A couple things to check:
    - Are all the resistors in place?  Not having the 2.2kΩ pull up resistors on the I2C SCL and SDA lines would cause this problem.
    - Have you wired the Teensy USB to the board USB, and are you plugging into the board USB?  If you haven't done this (and you also haven't jumpered the Teensy VCC to the board VCC, which would be another, but much less common, option) then the board isn't getting power, which would mean (among other things) that the pull up resistors weren't actually doing anything.

    Since the Teensy is working, and assuming that nothing abnormal is going on, these are the only two things I can think of that would cause this exact problem.  Please post back with whatever you find :-) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 21 June 2013, 14:48:45
    Hi. I just got to building my ergodox kit (stuck in customs for the longest time), and I've kind of hit a wall. If anyone here who's more well-versed in electronics and the ergodox firmware could help me out on starting to debug this I would really appreciate it.

    Currently, I finished all the soldering except adding in all the keyswitches. I put some on the right side for testing, the left side is completely empty of keyswitches, but all the diodes, the connector and the mcp are in place.

    The teensy is working, I can load firmware onto it, but none of the test keys on the right side register with the default firmware. After some testing (turning on the teensy LED at different points in the code), I figured out that the mcp23018_ functions in controller.c were the problem. Commenting them out makes the keys on the right side register and work fine, but of course now there's no communication with the left side.

    It seems like it freezes in twi_start, when waiting for the TWINT bit to be set after the operation, ie:

    Code: [Select]
    uint8_t twi_start(void) {
    // send start
    TWCR = (1<<TWINT)|(1<<TWEN)|(1<<TWSTA);
    // wait for transmission to complete
    while (!(TWCR & (1<<TWINT))); // <==== This line never finishes
    // if it didn't work, return the status code (else return 0)
    if ( (TW_STATUS != TW_START) &&
         (TW_STATUS != TW_REP_START) )
    return TW_STATUS;  // error
    return 0;  // success
    }

    I'm not familiar enough with teensy or the i2c bus to understand why that would happen.

    I connected the jump points on the 3.5mm connectors, as far as I can tell the diodes on the left side are getting power, I'm not sure how I would check for the mcp.

    If anyone could point me at some things that might be wrong that would really help. I'm quite new to soldering and using a multimeter.

    How many keys have you soldered on the right side? I think you need to solder at least a full row and column for even one to work and even then only the one corner key will work until you connect more (AGAIN I may not understand the wiring but I believe that is the case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 15:00:04
    How many keys have you soldered on the right side? I think you need to solder at least a full row and column for even one to work and even then only the one corner key will work until you connect more (AGAIN I may not understand the wiring but I believe that is the case.

    Actually, keyswitches are normally not connected until pressed (as you can kind of see in this picture (http://lucbei.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/cherry-mx-clear-animated.gif)) - so the keyboard really doesn't know whether switches (or diodes) are there at all until one of the switches is pressed.  During prototyping (and sometimes still, in order to experiment with different LEDs and such) I've had just the Teensy (with pull up resistors on SCL and SDA) on a breadboard by itself, and used a wire to simulate key presses (by shorting a "row" pin to a "column" pin).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: GGLucas on Fri, 21 June 2013, 15:01:55
    .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: GGLucas on Fri, 21 June 2013, 15:32:27
    .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 15:57:29
    Quote
    - Are all the resistors in place?  Not having the 2.2kΩ pull up resistors on the I2C SCL and SDA lines would cause this problem.

    Hmm. That could be it. The resistors are in place, which pins are they supposed to be continuous to? I have my multimeter beeping both the resistors with the pin labeled B4 and no other pins (except VCC, but that seems right). Maybe I screwed something up with the pin soldering.

    You may wish to see this circuit diagram (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg) (download from github (if you haven't already), then view).  B4 should be shorted to VCC (because it's used on the left hand side as one of the decoupling capacitor pins) so that explains that.  But one of the resistors should be continuous with D0, and the other should be continuous with D1.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: GGLucas on Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:10:58
    .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:27:30
    :-) Glad you got it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:56:29
    If you use surface mount or two color LEDs you need to dremel out the light sections either way. This is because Cherry MX switchs only have two holes for pins (They have the wide open area but below there are only two holes that lead out of the switch. When you dremel that piece out you can widen the hole a fair bit without causing damage to the switch (at least not that I could see).

    I think it would be a bit tedious but not to bad if you use solder paste for the surface mount parts. Obviously these size RGB LEDs have close pins and you would definitely want the 4pin ones NOT the 6 pin ones because that is more soldering.

    As for the number of lights yes you can do that as each channel is controlled separately. But the great thing about Colorduinos is that they can accept and forward I2C on so you can chain them to control as many colorduinos as you want you just need two or more boards. They are pretty nice.

    I was worried about there only being two holes, but I don't have my kit yet, so I haven't been able to actually hold a switch in my hand. Thanks for the info!

    Are you considering retrofitting your current ErgoDox to have lights? That's what I'm mainly interested in, but I'm not sure how to run the wires between LED's in this particular kit. If I dremel out the LED area in the switch, could I then bend the leads around the bottom of the switch so they pop out below the main pcb? I could then do all the wiring on the underside. I would have to be pretty careful to keep all the wires insulated, so I don't create any shorts

    On subject of number and type of lights, my concern (and this is totally personal) is that I'm not much of a programmer, and having a whole spectrum of lights, and two colorduinos creates the potential to do more on the programming side. I just have no interest in that. I'd rather simplify my software by limiting my hardware. Totally personal preference thought.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:29:18
    Woo just joined the GB, I hope I don't "have" to buy any more keyboards any time soon.  ^-^

    Anyone know what's up with the commits disappearing?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Fri, 21 June 2013, 19:55:23

    Anyone know what's up with the commits disappearing?

    I thought that was weird to. I made a detailed post there on what I thought was wrong with the instructions in the hopes they would fix them but I don't think I will put up the effort again.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sat, 22 June 2013, 10:31:31

    Anyone know what's up with the commits disappearing?

    I thought that was weird to. I made a detailed post there on what I thought was wrong with the instructions in the hopes they would fix them but I don't think I will put up the effort again.

    I've heard that some comments are disappearing off of the GB page, but there's also an issue with the the counter for those that are committed to purchasing once it hits $200. Commit/comment.. issues with both!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 23 June 2013, 02:27:08
    I am currently doing another keyboard lighting project (I will hopefully be done with soon). I am using the Colorduino board. It can control 64RGB leds, or 192 single LEDs. It can be controlled over I2C over usb (which is my goal as I am having OS integration so that I can display things on the keys. It is also a fully arduino board so you can manage a lot on it alone. It manages everything for you so all you have to set in code is the rgb value or the brightness for the led.  One example I have been doing is displaying processor usage by lighting up the 0-9 keys. there are a lot of neat things you can do once you have this level of control and can interface with the computer.

    Also I have a prototype RGB one. I have heard people don't think this is possible because you of RGB diodes only coming in 5mm, which is true but I made a test version that works with surface mount RGB led and it works well. You can either dremel the keys or mount them slightly at an angle on the pcb and they work great. I need to make a board as no one in their right mind would solder that many points. I am actually most exited about the rgb part as you can do so much awesome stuff when you have full color.

    They have risers on the board but if those are soldered it could easily fit in the open space of the full hand version of the ergodox.

    I have gotten them as lot a $11 but they are normally about $20. I reacently got mine at HobbyKing http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26845__colorduino_v2_0_rgb_led_matrix_driver.html

    Doing the surface mount LED's by hand is super tedious. What about bi-color leds? A red/blue tri lead led could produce red, blue, and a whole variety of purples. It's also effectively 2 leds, so a single colorduino could drive 96 of them (right?). There are 84 keys on the ErgoDox, so using bi color led's would cover them all, while 64 RGB's wouldn't. Bi's also come in 3mm packages, so it solves the surface mount issue.

    This sounds like something I would like to try out. I would obviously have to solder the matrix myself. Do you know of any resources that outline how to do that? I've seen a ton of examples with already done RGB matrixes, but this isn't the same, and those are only using it, not building it.

    EDIT: Not sure if all 3 pins for bi color LEDs will fit through the MX switches. The LED is a 3mm package, but the leads are wider.

    Check my videos and images on my finished lighting project I just posted:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45078.0

    I can help you on how to wire it if you need to. It is very simple just time consuming. I don't know if you will be able to wire the current board by hand because of spacing but if you want to let me know.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 23 June 2013, 21:13:39
    I bought a second set of PCB's on the first group buy and thought I'd try something different with them. Overall I an very happy with the ErgoDox and don't think I could ever go back to a conventional board again.

    One thing that I think could be improved is the thumb cluster. Others have voiced a desire for it to be a bit closer to the main board. I agree. I also have trouble hitting the center button on the inside vertical columns with my thumbs. The top buttons became much more accessible when I replaced the dsa's with top tow dcs's . The extra height makes a huge difference.

    Here are a couple of pictures of a rough mockup of my early ideas. I cannibalized some switches and caps from a Siig Mini and a TE. If I go with this arraignment  I'll try my hand at resin casting some custom caps  http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGiY7Wa

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Sun, 23 June 2013, 22:49:00
    Check my videos and images on my finished lighting project I just posted:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45078.0

    I can help you on how to wire it if you need to. It is very simple just time consuming. I don't know if you will be able to wire the current board by hand because of spacing but if you want to let me know.

    Read your post and saw the videos. They look great! I would like to wire the current board. Perhaps it would be possible to get the pins bent down and under the pcb? Do all the wiring underneath? What about drilling through the pcb? I'm not sure how many switches have diodes across them, so not sure if that's possible either.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 23 June 2013, 23:17:59
    Read your post and saw the videos. They look great! I would like to wire the current board. Perhaps it would be possible to get the pins bent down and under the pcb? Do all the wiring underneath? What about drilling through the pcb? I'm not sure how many switches have diodes across them, so not sure if that's possible either.

    Thanks!

    I just pulled up the schematic and you should be able to drill through the pcb...but not for every key. A number of the keys run wiring right where you will need to drill also there is wiring for the currently supported LEDs. You will have to be very careful and have the schematic up for viewing while you drill. It may be better to see if anyone will make a PCB that is wired already but you seem pretty determined. The wires will have to be pretty thin and very precise.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Mon, 24 June 2013, 14:50:08
    We hit $200  :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Tue, 25 June 2013, 12:04:08
    I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized something. Whenever you rest on the homerow, having your pinky match the other three fingers causes your hand to tilt. An interesting idea would be to rest the pinky on the row below the home row. I may try that out by shifting that whole column of keys down one in the firmware.

    I have in fact been doing this since day 1! I've grown to like it quite a bit. My current build:

    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=GK8FX3&hash=77ef5f9840dae6233ecf42182f0ee940

    The only thing I don't like is that it's biomechanically IMPOSSIBLE to to stretch the ring finger up while curling the pinky, and in practice this makes key combinations such as W, A very hard to do. If you play games on WASD (well, WQSD on this config, ha) it's exceedingly hard to drop down to the A with your pinky while keeping your ring finger on the W. Small price to pay, but in the interest of bias I'd thought I've give my own pro/con view.

    On the other hand, I've been trying to dream up a new vision of qwerty (or anything else as a base, really) that utilizes the fact that the pinky is shorter than the other fingers, and only attempts to use it for two keys. Likewise that the inner two columns (TGB and YHN, respectively) involve a horizontal shift which is much more complex than simply raising or dropping the finger by one key; thus, this is where I would attempt to put lesser-used keys such as ZXQJKV or something.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Tue, 25 June 2013, 13:19:43
    Thanks!

    I just pulled up the schematic and you should be able to drill through the pcb...but not for every key. A number of the keys run wiring right where you will need to drill also there is wiring for the currently supported LEDs. You will have to be very careful and have the schematic up for viewing while you drill. It may be better to see if anyone will make a PCB that is wired already but you seem pretty determined. The wires will have to be pretty thin and very precise.

    Drilling through the PCB is probably too risky. I want to do this because it's cool, but not at the cost of damaging the board. I already have the switches (and about a dozen spares, so I can experiment), plus some transparent keys that I harvested from an off the shelf backlit cherry mx keyboard. If I can make the backlight work, great. If not, I'm not out any money, just time.

    I have a pretty clear picture of what is possible, so I know what I need to look at when the board gets here. My biggest hurdle (I think) will be finding a way to get access to, and wire, the leads.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Tue, 25 June 2013, 15:11:01
    If I order through the massdrop site is there any chance that I can get brown switches?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ksm123 on Tue, 25 June 2013, 15:18:27
    My ErgoDox (MassDrop generated firmware) works well with Windows and Linux, but Solaris 11 does not register any key in X. I didn't have time to check console or diagnose it yet, maybe next week I'll be able to look into it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Tue, 25 June 2013, 15:23:54
    If I order through the massdrop site is there any chance that I can get brown switches?

    I only see black, blue, and clear.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Tue, 25 June 2013, 15:38:01
    I can't see the difference between the two difference case options, any ideas?


    Has anyone with RSI found this keyboard helps?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 25 June 2013, 18:48:06
    On the other hand, I've been trying to dream up a new vision of qwerty (or anything else as a base, really) that utilizes the fact that the pinky is shorter than the other fingers, and only attempts to use it for two keys. Likewise that the inner two columns (TGB and YHN, respectively) involve a horizontal shift which is much more complex than simply raising or dropping the finger by one key; thus, this is where I would attempt to put lesser-used keys such as ZXQJKV or something.

    You may be interested in the Workman layout:
    http://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-different-philosophy-in-designing-keyboard-layouts/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Tue, 25 June 2013, 18:54:35
    I can't see the difference between the two difference case options, any ideas?


    Has anyone with RSI found this keyboard helps?

    Full hand has a palm rest. Classic doesn't.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 25 June 2013, 20:36:34
    If I order through the massdrop site is there any chance that I can get brown switches?

    You could order with no switches (-$44) and then source your own from the 7-bit group buy (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-mx-taking-pre-orders-t2760.html) (or elsewhere).  It'll cost a bit more, and you'll have to wait a while though.

    My ErgoDox (MassDrop generated firmware) works well with Windows and Linux, but Solaris 11 does not register any key in X. I didn't have time to check console or diagnose it yet, maybe next week I'll be able to look into it.

    Weird...  The massdrop generated layouts should be running the USB code straight from PJRC - no Comsumer Page (media key) stuff enabled or anything.  I'm assuming other USB keyboards work with the same setup?  I'll be curious to know what you find.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 25 June 2013, 20:59:50
    Here are a couple of pictures of a rough mockup of my early ideas. I cannibalized some switches and caps from a Siig Mini and a TE. If I go with this arraignment  I'll try my hand at resin casting some custom caps  http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGiY7Wa
    Pretty cool.

    An alternative to resin-casting key caps would be to take low-profile Tipro relegendable key caps that are flat on the tops, remove the tops and glue on pieces of textured plastic that have been cut (or even heat-formed) into the right shape. It would be hard to make the key caps look good, but they would be more resilient against wear than soft urethane.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 25 June 2013, 21:34:15
    I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized something. Whenever you rest on the homerow, having your pinky match the other three fingers causes your hand to tilt. An interesting idea would be to rest the pinky on the row below the home row. I may try that out by shifting that whole column of keys down one in the firmware.

    I have in fact been doing this since day 1! I've grown to like it quite a bit. My current build:

    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=GK8FX3&hash=77ef5f9840dae6233ecf42182f0ee940

    The only thing I don't like is that it's biomechanically IMPOSSIBLE to to stretch the ring finger up while curling the pinky, and in practice this makes key combinations such as W, A very hard to do. If you play games on WASD (well, WQSD on this config, ha) it's exceedingly hard to drop down to the A with your pinky while keeping your ring finger on the W. Small price to pay, but in the interest of bias I'd thought I've give my own pro/con view.

    On the other hand, I've been trying to dream up a new vision of qwerty (or anything else as a base, really) that utilizes the fact that the pinky is shorter than the other fingers, and only attempts to use it for two keys. Likewise that the inner two columns (TGB and YHN, respectively) involve a horizontal shift which is much more complex than simply raising or dropping the finger by one key; thus, this is where I would attempt to put lesser-used keys such as ZXQJKV or something.
    Yeah I thought of it also because when I use my implementation of theCore on the ErgoDox (when playing SC2), my home fingers are ZSDF (QWERTY keys for reference, although I use Colemak). I tried it out for a little while after that post and game up on it because, as you mention, combinations like WA is very hard while typing. Whenever I have the time I may mess with it again because it does create more comfortable home keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ksm123 on Wed, 26 June 2013, 05:01:04
    My ErgoDox (MassDrop generated firmware) works well with Windows and Linux, but Solaris 11 does not register any key in X. I didn't have time to check console or diagnose it yet, maybe next week I'll be able to look into it.

    Weird...  The massdrop generated layouts should be running the USB code straight from PJRC - no Comsumer Page (media key) stuff enabled or anything.  I'm assuming other USB keyboards work with the same setup?  I'll be curious to know what you find.

    I've investigated it a little today. The breakthrough came when I've connected my Das back to KVM and it was ignored too.
    I think one of KVM "channels" hang up. After I reconnected KVM to the machine all worked fine. Sorry for false alert.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 26 June 2013, 06:20:50
    My ErgoDox (MassDrop generated firmware) works well with Windows and Linux, but Solaris 11 does not register any key in X. I didn't have time to check console or diagnose it yet, maybe next week I'll be able to look into it.

    Weird...  The massdrop generated layouts should be running the USB code straight from PJRC - no Comsumer Page (media key) stuff enabled or anything.  I'm assuming other USB keyboards work with the same setup?  I'll be curious to know what you find.

    I've investigated it a little today. The breakthrough came when I've connected my Das back to KVM and it was ignored too.
    I think one of KVM "channels" hang up. After I reconnected KVM to the machine all worked fine. Sorry for false alert.

    Lol. Whew. Thanks for checking it out :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 26 June 2013, 06:52:59
    I can't see the difference between the two difference case options, any ideas?


    Has anyone with RSI found this keyboard helps?

    Full hand has a palm rest. Classic doesn't.


    Thank you, I can't find any images of the two options anywhere. Am I doing it wrong?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:02:39
    I can't see the difference between the two difference case options, any ideas?


    Has anyone with RSI found this keyboard helps?

    Full hand has a palm rest. Classic doesn't.


    Thank you, I can't find any images of the two options anywhere. Am I doing it wrong?

    classic

    (https://d3jqoivu6qpygv.cloudfront.net/img_bucket/ergodox/_W3T2166.jpg)

    fullhand

    (http://i.imgur.com/kTRGM.jpg)

    not my pics. just pulled them from random places from massdrop and this thread.

    it's definitely had an impact on my wrist pains.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:05:27
    Thank you very much.


    Which version did you go for?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:08:33
    Thank you very much.


    Which version did you go for?

    I have one of each, but my daily driver is the fullhand, which is definitely more comfortable when tented. The other one will be meant for travel.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 26 June 2013, 07:20:42
    Again, thank you very much!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Wed, 26 June 2013, 15:04:34

    Yeah I thought of it also because when I use my implementation of theCore on the ErgoDox (when playing SC2)

    OH MY GOD YOU USE THECORE?! Haahahaahah that's AMAZING. As it turns out, TheCore was about 75% of the reason why I was so excited about ErgoDox. I use TheCore too, although I'm a lefty as you might have guessed given the Ctrl/Shift/Alt positioning. The columnar layout is fantastic for this!

    I actually showed TheJakatak the ErgoDox when it was still in its design infancy, but he didn't seem interested--probably because adopting a niche keyboard might hurt adoption of bindings in general.

    But yeah, wow--small world.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 26 June 2013, 15:05:52
    If I place my order today for clears will there be a long wait for the switches? I take it that I will have to pay when the sale ends in a couple of days.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: palmtrees on Wed, 26 June 2013, 21:02:44
    Hi Guys,

    This thread is quite long, I haven't read it all the way through so forgive me. It appears that these home-made split keyboards might be currently for sale? I have some ergonomic issues and have been searching high and low for a truly split keyboard like this, and I can't find one anywhere.

    How can I order one of these? Does it work with Mac?

    Thanks.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 26 June 2013, 21:25:29
    Go to the Massdrop website. There is currently a group buy for them that will end soon for $199.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 26 June 2013, 21:28:40
    This thread is quite long, I haven't read it all the way through so forgive me. It appears that these home-made split keyboards might be currently for sale? I have some ergonomic issues and have been searching high and low for a truly split keyboard like this, and I can't find one anywhere.

    How can I order one of these? Does it work with Mac?

    You'd need to register with Massdrop and join the ErgoDox group buy (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox) (only 3 days left!). Note that this is a DIY kit, not a fully assembled board, so you would be expected to solder all the components to the circuit board and assemble it yourself, or possibly pay someone to do it for you. WhiteFireDragon made a very nice, detailed assembly video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1irVrAl3Ts) that you may find helpful. FWIW, I hadn't soldered much of anything since high school shop class ~25 years ago and had little trouble with this project.

    If you don't feel up to the task of assembly and really just want to try a board with fully separated halves but not necessarily something as "radical" as the ErgoDox, look into a Kinesis Freestyle, which is otherwise more of a traditional layout and available fairly cheaply on eBay (http://search.ebay.com/kinesis-freestyle).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 26 June 2013, 23:21:57
    Ps: It does work with Macs. It should work with anything that recognizes a standard USB keyboard.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: suka on Fri, 28 June 2013, 02:34:08
    Whenever you rest on the homerow, having your pinky match the other three fingers causes your hand to tilt. An interesting idea would be to rest the pinky on the row below the home row.
    I have in fact been doing this since day 1!
    +1 here: That was one of the reasons I did not get an ErgoDox in the first place: I had figured from my own designs that dropping the pinky column down one row in relation to the middle finger one was beneficial for the pinkies reach. Then again, as I also don't use the outmost pinky column any more there is not much strain on it anyways. I have been experimenting with many different offsets, but the current compromise between a rather regular compact layout and adjusted offsets with two 1/2 key drops is a joy to type on:
    [attachimg=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 28 June 2013, 03:42:25
    oh you and your creations suka...  :D my mind is being blown
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sun, 30 June 2013, 21:14:47
    ..Annnd round three comes to an end with 189 purchased!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 30 June 2013, 21:20:30
    And already 33 people requesting a 4th round, lol :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Sun, 30 June 2013, 21:51:55
    Glad I got in this round. Hope ergodox will lead to some paradigm shift of input.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 30 June 2013, 22:05:35
    It really does. It's quite hard to believe until you've typed on one for a decent mount of time. It takes a while to totally un-train your hands from all the bad QWERTY practices (my left hand still jumps all over the place when typing, for instance), but you can definitely feel an improvement in a very short time (a matter of days for me).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Mon, 01 July 2013, 14:10:16
    I still use my right middle finger to hit the U in number. God dammit qwerty.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:14:39
    I still use my right middle finger to hit the U in number. God dammit qwerty.

    Perhaps it's because I used to use an MS Natural 4000 + got proper typing technique beaten into my head during middle school, but I've never used my middle finger to hit U, only my index. Hopefully I won't struggle when I get these things built!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 01 July 2013, 22:41:49
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 01 July 2013, 22:59:07
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 01 July 2013, 23:21:08
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    A few of them, hard to say which because it doesn't happen every time. I'll open it back up and check it out tomorrow. Sounds like  a pretty easy fix if that's the problem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Tue, 02 July 2013, 00:18:01
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    Is that aluminium cast or do you apply some material on top?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 02 July 2013, 00:21:47
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    Is that aluminium cast or do you apply some material on top?
    Neither, it's a custom cut acrylic case with a black middle and white top/bottom.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Tue, 02 July 2013, 01:05:29
    I haven't seen anybody use flathead screws and countersink them into the top with the acrylic. Do you think it might crack the case?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 02 July 2013, 01:07:01
    I think I like the white vinyl better than the carbon fiber.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 02 July 2013, 01:45:39
    I haven't seen anybody use flathead screws and countersink them into the top with the acrylic. Do you think it might crack the case?

    From what information I found online about countersinking acrylic, it seems that cracking/splitting is common, due to the heat generating from drilling. (most recommend doing it slowly, and constantly spraying water while countersinking to keep the heat down, even on a big piece of acrylic). Due to the screw holes being so close to the edge of the acrylic in the ergodox case, I would think the chances of cracking is very likely.

    I doubt I will ever try it, mainly due to the lack of tools on my end, but if I do, I'll probably do it with a hand countersink tool instead of using anything automated.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 02 July 2013, 02:12:07
    I haven't seen anybody use flathead screws and countersink them into the top with the acrylic. Do you think it might crack the case?

    I've been messing with a practice piece of acrylic for a while now, and I plan to countersink the top (and bottom, for use with some nuts I'm going to try to grind down to a 90 degree angle) on all of my cases. Sure hope it doesn't crack!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 02 July 2013, 03:46:55
    With all of the talk of the thumb cluster moving in more and having added a hackintosh to my setup I figured I'd use the space next to the thumbs to mount another switch for the apple/command key. I drilled holes in the board for a PCB-mount switch and attached jumper wires to the upper thumb switch positions (1|5 and 1|8), and modified a 2x1 keycap to fit.

    I use the black+green keys with my thumbs, and it's pretty comfy for all of them. From left to right they are L1, gui, space, enter ... delete, backspace, gui, L1.

    Full album here (http://imgur.com/a/qj14c)

    (http://i.imgur.com/9fo0W4s.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/IrA71gy.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Tue, 02 July 2013, 06:43:13
    Good idea. Why did you have to go to a 1.5 cap? It looks like the 2x would still fit.

    I'm working on a thumb cluster mod too. It will take some time but the ergo benefit will be great.   http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGiY7Wa   
    [attach=1]
    All six thumb keys are very easy to reach.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Tue, 02 July 2013, 06:45:06
    I have a plan to hide the screws :) Just need my board!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Tue, 02 July 2013, 07:01:41
    I wonder if a sex bolt would work?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 02 July 2013, 11:13:57
    I wonder if a sex bolt would work?

    I looked forever, but I couldn't find any ~3x20mm, with both heads the right shape for countersinking...  Then again, my hardware searching skills aren't quite up to par with a lot of people here yet :-) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AloisiusFauxly on Tue, 02 July 2013, 15:07:35
    Sex bolts would be a good way to go, even without countersinking.

    @kerplop - I went with a 1.5x because my thumb knuckle would hit the corner of a 2x:

    (http://i.imgur.com/kWeoz46.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 02 July 2013, 18:16:10
    I think I like the white vinyl better than the carbon fiber.

    it appears CWDr's layers are custom cut acrylic that looks awesome, it's what a litster case SHOULD look like.

    but if you are taking the vinyl route i would be worried about any light colored vinyl because any minor mistakes in cutting with the hobby knife are going to show more obvious than a darker color like black, at least that is my opinion. may be worth buying extra material or even multiple kinds to see what works best. once i get more money available im gonna grab extra colors to not just put on my acrylic one(s) but putting it on the metal one may also be a solution to the problem with it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 02 July 2013, 18:36:02
    The problem with sex bolts/binding posts is that their post diameter is a standard 13/64" (5.16mm), so you'd have to drill out the provided 3mm holes, which may risk cracking or chipping the acrylic. Switching to button-head screws may a better option.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 02 July 2013, 18:55:14
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    I've reflowed solder on the bad keys to no avail. Still doubletapping. What's the likelyhood of it being the switch itself?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 02 July 2013, 19:18:03
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    I've reflowed solder on the bad keys to no avail. Still doubletapping. What's the likelyhood of it being the switch itself?

    i mean if that was happening to me i would have replaced with a new switch and diode though i doubt it is the switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Tue, 02 July 2013, 19:47:20
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    I've reflowed solder on the bad keys to no avail. Still doubletapping. What's the likelyhood of it being the switch itself?

    i mean if that was happening to me i would have replaced with a new switch and diode though i doubt it is the switch.

    Could a bad diode cause chattering?

    My XArmor has random chattering in about 5 different keys. I've switched the switches with other, less used switches such as scroll lock, the chattering still persisted. I never messed with anything over and above that though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 02 July 2013, 22:06:13
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    I've reflowed solder on the bad keys to no avail. Still doubletapping. What's the likelyhood of it being the switch itself?

    Pretty low chance imo. Unless you opened up the switch before and messed up the contact leaf while doing it. Unlikely, but it can happen.

    A few questions - does the keys reside on a single hand? (if the chattering is only on the left hand, then its likely a joint on the 3.5mm jack or the transponder, though that too, is unlikely - mainly because if the signal is lost between the halves, the keyboard would just stop working until it is replugged.)

    Like Glod and actionbastard pointed out, did u reflow the diodes too?

    Are there any patterns to the affected keys - ie reside in the same column/row? Specifying which keys would be helpful.

    Barring the above, a high res picture of the back of your pcb would help in the troubleshooting.

    Good idea. Why did you have to go to a 1.5 cap? It looks like the 2x would still fit.

    I'm working on a thumb cluster mod too. It will take some time but the ergo benefit will be great.   http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGiY7Wa   
    (Attachment Link)
    All six thumb keys are very easy to reach.

    This is just wow. Surprised no one commented on this yet. The extend of this mod definitely takes the keyboard beyond the default ergodox, worthy of a thread on its own.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 02 July 2013, 23:53:39
    Trying to get the PCB fabricated and there were some small issues, such as NPTH holes overlapping PTH holes.

    Is this present in the Massdrop PCB as well?

    I have got the PCB designs from the website.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 03 July 2013, 00:31:43
    Just got mine  assembled, seems good so far, bit confusing. Have a small issue with key repeat, anyone share this issue or have a fix?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5c7Wjlm.jpg)


    looking good. which key/keys are repeating? It's likely a cold solder joint. Just reflow the solder on the affect keys and see if that works. If not check the joints on the teensy too.
    I've reflowed solder on the bad keys to no avail. Still doubletapping. What's the likelyhood of it being the switch itself?

    Pretty low chance imo. Unless you opened up the switch before and messed up the contact leaf while doing it. Unlikely, but it can happen.

    A few questions - does the keys reside on a single hand? (if the chattering is only on the left hand, then its likely a joint on the 3.5mm jack or the transponder, though that too, is unlikely - mainly because if the signal is lost between the halves, the keyboard would just stop working until it is replugged.)

    Like Glod and actionbastard pointed out, did u reflow the diodes too?
     of this mod definitely takes the keyboard beyond the default ergodox, worthy of a thread on its own.

    So far everything I've noticed has been on the right side, not to say the left doesn't have anything. Just if it does it rarely repeats, or is on an uncommon letter.

    Most of the switches were opened beforehand to have inbuilt diodes removed, just a simple open and let diode slide out. I refloed the smd diodes, as well as all teensy pins that didn't look perfect, but will check them again.

    The keys I've noticed the effect on- o (; in qwerty), i (l in qwerty), and the left bottom key on the right hand, exempting the thumb cluster. Other keys I use less (or have lower repeat chances) may also be effected.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 03 July 2013, 09:06:19
    unlike to be the teensy in this case, as a bad joint there would usually mean you'd have a problem with an entire row/column.

    I'll swap out the switches for new ones if you have extras on hand. it doesn't sound like your case, but sometimes dirt and grime in the contact leaf can cause chattering. Unlikely but worth a look.

    that's the few things I can think of offhand.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 04 July 2013, 01:39:30
    Finally put together one of the kits from massdrop!  Thought I'd share a few pics.

    After much deliberation, I decided to put the LEDs into the case, in the top right of the right hand side
    [attachimg=1]

    I'm really happy with the way it worked out :) .  Used some nice brad point bits to drill out these holes.  You could do it with regular bits, but you'd have to be much more careful to get the holes as clean.  A few turns (maybe 3) of a countersink bit by hand on the top , and then maybe 3 times that many on the bottom (to lessen the thickness just slightly) made these bezels (http://lighthouseleds.com/5mm-led-bezel-black.html) fit perfectly.  I got the flat LEDs from the same place (they're really bright though at 20mA; I'm giving them much less, using 10kΩ resistors).
    [attachimg=2]
    EDIT: Forgot to mention: In order to have space for this, you must solder the Teensy to the PCB without spacers in between, only a thin sheet of some insulating material (my Dad gave me a piece of kevlar tape, I think it was, to use).  This is kind of a pain, since you still have to solder the pins to both the top of the Teensy and the bottom of the PCB, but I can't think of a good workaround.  Everything appears to work just fine, but I haven't tested it extensively.  Also, I chose to solder the resistors to the underside of the pins where the LEDs would normally go, and the leads of the LEDs to the resistors' pins (as someone suggested a while back).

    I really like Litster's case in clear acrylic, dust, scratches, etc., not withstanding.  Looks much better in person, IMHO, haven't seen a picture yet (including this one, lol) that does it justice :-)
    [attachimg=3]

    I countersunk all the holes, top and bottom.  Not perfectly clean... but I'm happy.  With practice (on a spare sheet of acrylic that I got just for this reason), it's not too difficult to do it without cracking the plate or melting the hole.
    [attachimg=4]

    Still need to do something with the bottom though...  I planned to bevel the nuts and grind off the bolts a little, but I couldn't get it right when I tried tonight.  Leaving to visit my grandparents for the rest of the summer tomorrow, so it'll have to wait till I get back.
    [attachimg=5]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 04 July 2013, 02:07:24
    Nice details on the acrylic case. I think your the first to post bolt mods on the acrylic case. To bevel the nuts you might try double-nutting two nuts to a screw, mounting it to a drill and spinning it diagonally against an abrasive stone or sandpaper. Also, some plastic compound and a felt pad mounted on a Dremel should polish the milling to a glass finish.

    Thanks for being the first to have the guts to try this. Did it feel at all like the case would crack when you tightened the nuts?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 04 July 2013, 02:40:03
    Thanks :-) .  Beveling the nuts wasn't too bad, though I didn't think to polish them afterwards (since that part won't be seen).  When I try again, I might do that though.  Actually, it was the bolts that were giving me the biggest problem, since I couldn't grind them without messing up the last thread, since I don't know what I'm doing...  Super frustrating.  My dad said he could show me how later though.

    And there weren't overly many guts required for the countersinking, since I practiced (a lot) first, lol.  The case didn't feel like it was even close to cracking for me, even on the one bolt that seems to be under a bit of tension.  I was worried about that too though, earlier on, so on one of my test pieces (which were thinner than the top and bottom layers of the case), I took a nut that we had ground a bit too steep on the end of a bolt, put it into a countersunk hole, and pressed on it as hard as I thought the bolt ever would when I put things together - and nothing happened, which actually surprised me a little.  Came to the conclusion that acrylic is reasonably tough stuff for the purposes we're putting it to.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 04 July 2013, 02:45:08
    How about laser etching the countersinks, it won't be tapered like a true countersink, however it should house the flat-head screws quite well.

    Thinking of getting my own acrylic case cut, and make these changes along with LED holes almost at the same positions as ic07.

    But first need to get the PCB fabricated, and regarding that, can anyone help eliminating the overlaps between the through holes, the fabricator is asking for 3x the price for a PCB with through holes overlappping as opposed to one without overlapping holes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 04 July 2013, 06:21:49
    Made some changes to the PCB design so the NPTH holes would not overlap with the PTH holes in the 7th column.

    Can someone please review and tell me if this is okay (First time editing PCB)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Thu, 04 July 2013, 08:33:43
    I can't believe I missed 3 entire runs of this board. lol.
    I've just put requests on 3 different massdrop pages because I'm not sure which one is current.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cgbuen on Thu, 04 July 2013, 22:49:16
    I just got a kit and have a few questions about diodes. I want to avoid the surface-mount diodes and use the through-holes, but I've read that there are fitting problems between the layers if you solder them directly to the board on the same side you would a surface-mount ones. However, I've harvested a bunch of switches with in-switch diodes from a G80-8200 (i.e. they are MX1A-xxDx). It seems like this would be a good compromise because it has the ease of soldering with the through-holes, and diode solder joints are now on the same side as the switch's solder joints, which I guess would alleviate that plate/PCB fitting problem. I have seated them and saw that the pins do actually fit perfectly on the PCB.

    I'm looking at the in-switch diodes themselves and comparing them to the through-hole diodes included with the kit, and they look pretty identical. I guess my questions are:

    1. Which side is the anode and and which is the cathode? (i.e. is the cathode the side with the black band or the one without?)
    2. Are half the switches supposed to have the diode flipped around to accommodate for the two hands? (i.e. 38 have the black band pointing and 38 have the black band pointing right, and then you put the appropriate switches on the proper hands?)
    3. Both my in-switch and kit ones have the numbers "41" and "48" etched on them, but they have a difference: in-switch ones also have the letters "PH", whereas the kit ones have some strange crossmark. Is there any significance to this?
    4. Are the three LED switches on the right hand PCB going to have problems this way? Do I have to reserve those 3 spots to actually use the surface-mount diodes?

    EDIT: One more question - 5. If I sticker the switch, the sticker touches the diode. Is this fine? I'm using the vinyl ones from MiMic.

    (http://assets.christopherbuenaventura.com/img/keyboards/dox-diodes-01.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 05 July 2013, 19:11:00
    1: The cathode is the side with the black band

    2: The cathode should be on the side where the pad that would normally receive a through hole diode is square. For in switch diodes, this means you should flip all the diodes for the left hand side. Alternately, you can change a makefile option and compile your own firmware - whichever seems easier.

    3: I would suppose that the diodes are slightly different, but I'd be really surprised if they weren't all well within tolerance for this project. And I can't think of any reason why mixing them would do any harm. Hopefully someone who knows more can correct me of I'm wrong.

    4: Using in-switch diodes probably won't work for the three keys that take LEDs. You might be able to make it work if you were careful... But I would recommend trying the SMDs on just those three keys, if you could. A couple other people have posted about their methods, and to me it sounds doable. Otherwise, soldering through hole diodes to the underside of the board shouldn't create any spacing issues either, as long as you clip the leads flush with the board *before* soldering, and make sure not to flood the joint with too much. It may push the PCB down just slightly in that side of the board, but as long as you're careful it shouldn't create any problems. Disclaimer: I haven't personally tried either method, as the mod I posted above, as a side effect, allowed me to get away with using in-switch diodes for all my keys.

    5: Don't see why that would cause any problems, unless it looks like it might put mechanical stress on the solder joint over time, somehow?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: doublethink on Fri, 05 July 2013, 21:10:37
    Would it be possible to make just the left hand side of this for use as a gaming keyboard?  I see the teensy is in the right case so I guess that is a requirement for the stock configuration.



    EDIT:  Answered my own question, 6KRO.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cgbuen on Fri, 05 July 2013, 22:47:21
    Sweet, thanks for the info ic07. I should be able to proceed along now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 06 July 2013, 01:42:05
    @cgbuen
    np :)

    @doublethink
    Yes, 6KRO + 8 modifiers.  But I do plan to try for NKRO at some point in the future, so we'll see how that goes.  About using just the left hand side, bpiphany's posted a couple times (I'm pretty sure in this thread) about the possibility of putting the Teensy on the left hand side upside down, and the MCP23018 on the right hand side upside down, so that the left hand side could be used alone that way.  It would also be possible to put a Teensy in an altoid can, with only the I2C pull-up resistors and the TRRS jack wired up, and use that instead of the right hand side, with a normally wired left hand side - wouldn't take up much extra desk space, and could probably be done for ~$20, if one were so inclined.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bishboria on Sun, 07 July 2013, 07:31:24
    Is it possible to leave off the LEDs on the ErgoDox? I don't really want to add them…

    If something has to go where the LEDs are meant to, can it be the SMDs?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bebuxe on Sun, 07 July 2013, 09:50:56
    We should really create a wiki page for the ErgoDox, to organize most of the material, and use it to answer most of the FAQ.
    Here is index:
    http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Projects#ErgoDox

    Here is the page. I am kinda busy, but if I make time, I will update it:
    http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=ErgoDox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 07 July 2013, 13:23:48
    Is it possible to leave off the LEDs on the ErgoDox? I don't really want to add them…

    If something has to go where the LEDs are meant to, can it be the SMDs?

    You can leave off the LEDs if you like. Not putting anything in their place should not create a problem.

    Just to be clear though: the SMDs (or through hole diodes, if that's what you're using) need to be in their normal positions on those keys regardless of whether or not the LEDs are there. Also, even if one wanted to, there is no place for soldering SMDs in substitution for LEDs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Latin00032 on Sun, 07 July 2013, 14:02:47
    I'm trying to put rubber pads under the ergodox.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on the types of pads that can work with this? I don't want the screws grinding into my desk.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 07 July 2013, 17:17:01
    @bebuxe: Thanks :) .  We really do need a wiki, and this is probably a good place for it.  I was going to log in and update just a few small things, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to log in or create an account...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Sun, 07 July 2013, 17:44:09
    ic07, good job on the screw countersink mod!

    If you want a clean looking acrylic case, use this cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/NOVUS-PC-10-Plastic-Clean-Shine/dp/B002UD0GFE) to clean every sheet top and bottom before you put them all together, it will look very nice.  And from there you will just have dust or fingerprints on the very top or bottom of the case.  Just use the cleaner to clean it from time to time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 07 July 2013, 18:06:36
    Thanks!  And for the link too, I'll have to try that when I get home and finish up the nuts on the bottom, and also on my subsequent cases.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bhh1988 on Sun, 07 July 2013, 19:54:43
    Just put together my full-hand aluminum. I've been having a lot of trouble of getting the keyboard functional though. My keyboard is not very responsive especially when I type fast. Sometimes it misses keys, and if I just type a bunch of gibberish the letters come out at half the speed that I'm typing (a lot of keypresses are skipped). What could be the problem?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Mon, 08 July 2013, 00:07:18
    If you have already put the case with PCB together, try testing it with just the PCBs without the aluminum case to make sure the metal isn't shorting out the PCBs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mikelanding on Mon, 08 July 2013, 00:26:50
    Anyone using Ergodox with Hackintosh?
    I got a a problem where when I booth up with Ergodox plugged in to my hackintosh. I got No OS Error msg.
    The boot screen:
    (http://i.imgur.com/dLZmk6X.jpg) (http://imgur.com/dLZmk6X)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bebuxe on Mon, 08 July 2013, 01:27:00
    but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to log in or create an account...
    Only administrators can create accounts. So ask Soarer or dorkvader to create one:
    Create account: http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin/signup
    Login: http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Special%3AUserLogin%2Fsignup

    They can make us writers, with only permissions to write the page after it has been created:
    http://wiki.geekhack.org/index.php?title=ErgoDox

    I created the workshop page here, so people can start documenting:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45571.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 08 July 2013, 08:16:26
    Massdrop just started to sell some spare PCBs there.
    22 for each PCB (NOT A PAIR).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kwago on Tue, 09 July 2013, 09:53:40
    Can anyone recommend a leveling mount size and type for the acrylic case?

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-levelers/=njozp1

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 09 July 2013, 12:14:02
    Am I the only one getting Sadster in the OP?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Tue, 09 July 2013, 13:10:10
    Nope.  The OP is pre-rootw0rm and Dox doesn't post here very often.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 09 July 2013, 16:21:23
    Yeah, I know. It is old. I just would have thought that they would have fixed it by now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 09 July 2013, 18:24:55
    @mikelanding: That's weird... dunno why it would do that.  First system I've heard of where things aren't working correctly.

    @bebuxe: Thanks again :-) .  For the record, my request was passed up to samwisekoi - I think he's the guy wiki related requests should be going to :-)

    @kwago: SubGothius posted about doing something similar (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg861099#msg861099) with M3 threaded PCB spacers.  Dunno if that helps :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Tue, 09 July 2013, 23:53:45
    Can anyone recommend a leveling mount size and type for the acrylic case?

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-levelers/=njozp1
    No, but if you find a nice result, let all of us know!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: phyrne on Wed, 10 July 2013, 10:07:23
    Good day gentlemen!

    So, I've got my heart set on an ErgoDox.

    I'm hoping someone can answer the below questions (the first of which I'm sure has been answered somewhere recently many times, however; it isn't immediately apparent to me, so I do apologise if people are getting sick of answering this question):

    I've asked to be notified of the next batch on MassDrop, however, does anyone know when the next bunch of kits will be available?

    I've got to teach myself how to solder, and I also have to buy some kit! So it'd be really handy if someone could provide me with a short list of the necessary (and nice to have) equipment for an ErgoDox build.

    Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, I really appreciate it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 10 July 2013, 10:17:32
    Good day gentlemen!

    So, I've got my heart set on an ErgoDox.

    I'm hoping someone can answer the below questions (the first of which I'm sure has been answered somewhere recently many times, however; it isn't immediately apparent to me, so I do apologise if people are getting sick of answering this question):

    I've asked to be notified of the next batch on MassDrop, however, does anyone know when the next bunch of kits will be available?

    I've got to teach myself how to solder, and I also have to buy some kit! So it'd be really handy if someone could provide me with a short list of the necessary (and nice to have) equipment for an ErgoDox build.

    Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, I really appreciate it!


    The next group buy will probably be within 1-3 months - there's already quite a few requests on the GB that ended last week (if you haven't gone to Massdrop and requested it again on the page - do so!).

    As for soldering: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: phyrne on Wed, 10 July 2013, 10:32:07
    The next group buy will probably be within 1-3 months - there's already quite a few requests on the GB that ended last week (if you haven't gone to Massdrop and requested it again on the page - do so!).

    As for soldering: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42824.0)

    Thanks for the swift response!

    Yeah, I've "Requested" it on the MassDrop page for the next group buy, is this what you're referring to? (I know it seems obvious, I just want to be perfectly clear on it so I don't miss out)

    And thank you very much for the link to the soldering thread  that's exactly what I needed!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kwago on Wed, 10 July 2013, 14:25:02
    Can anyone recommend a leveling mount size and type for the acrylic case?

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-levelers/=njozp1
    No, but if you find a nice result, let all of us know!

    Does anyone know the diameter of the screws?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gnubag on Wed, 10 July 2013, 14:35:49
    Can anyone recommend a leveling mount size and type for the acrylic case?

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-levelers/=njozp1
    No, but if you find a nice result, let all of us know!

    Does anyone know the diameter of the screws?

    they should be m3 IIRC
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kwago on Wed, 10 July 2013, 19:44:09
    yeah I don't think any of the leveling mounts are small enough for M3
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: 2disbetter on Thu, 11 July 2013, 07:21:00
    I apologize in advance... I've looked through about 10 pages of this thread and wasn't able to find the info. Is there an individual or group buy for the ErgoDox in black assembled? As a big fan of the hhkb pro 2 the design of the ErgoDox is great. Thank you in advance for any responses!

    2d
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Thu, 11 July 2013, 07:28:29
    No, you would need to order either the kit or PCB and have a custom case made.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Thu, 11 July 2013, 07:31:52
    How much is one "pair" of ergodox weight? Assuming using the acrylic classic case?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: 2disbetter on Thu, 11 July 2013, 15:43:37
    No, you would need to order either the kit or PCB and have a custom case made.

    Thanks! I've signed up for both the PCB only and kit massdrops. Hopefully they'll fire one up again soon, and I can reguest the black case seen on the ergodox.org home page.

    I've been looking for an indepth review of this keyboard. One's i've found tend to discuss the build process but not the keyboards performance. (Ie: does the split connection slow down key input or have any detrimental affects to responsiveness, etc.)

    Does anyone have a link for something that discusses this?

    2d
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Fri, 12 July 2013, 04:05:34
    I've been looking for an indepth review of this keyboard. One's i've found tend to discuss the build process but not the keyboards performance. (Ie: does the split connection slow down key input or have any detrimental affects to responsiveness, etc.)
    I remember reading something about speed. Here it is: 4ms response time for the left hand side.
    http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-massdrop-groupbuy-discussion-t5085-90.html?hilit=4ms#p95477
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Fri, 12 July 2013, 10:19:47
    Out of curiosity, has anyone tried something like this [1] in order to prevent the keyboard from scratching the surface it is sitting on? Is it working good? Or perhaps you're using something else, in that case I'm also interested in knowing what you used.

    Regards,
    Shad

    [1]: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-HINGED-SNAP-ON-SCREW-COVER-CAP-CAPS-for-M3-and-M4-Screws-Choose-COLOUR-/310349982989
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:05:04
    Those prevent scratching but not sliding. I am currently using them plus some stick on rubber bumps (used on cabinets, picture frames, etc...) for each one. It's still not perfect as it makes the keyboard sit a little higher than I want and doesn't completely eliminate sliding.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 12 July 2013, 15:27:33
    I've been looking for an indepth review of this keyboard. One's i've found tend to discuss the build process but not the keyboards performance. (Ie: does the split connection slow down key input or have any detrimental affects to responsiveness, etc.)
    I remember reading something about speed. Here it is: 4ms response time for the left hand side.
    http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-massdrop-groupbuy-discussion-t5085-90.html?hilit=4ms#p95477

    Actually, last time I measured it, I think the actual scan time was shorter (I think I was measuring incorrectly earlier on) - closer to 3ms for the whole main() loop.  The recommend debounce time for Cherry MX switches is 5ms though, so the poll rate / maximum response time is limited to that by default.

    As for the split design slowing down key input, I haven't noticed that it does... but then, I'm not an especially fast typist.  I think most people have been getting back to their standard-layout speeds within a few days to a few weeks though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: 2disbetter on Fri, 12 July 2013, 17:20:38
    Thank you for the responses. I should have been a little more clear when I referring to slowdown as a result of the split design. What I mean was mechanically. IE: Does the cable induce any scanning latency. 3-4ms is more than adequate if that is from both sides of the keyboard.

    2d
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Fri, 12 July 2013, 21:26:25
    @Jagriff: thanks for your feedback.

    Actually, I had some black o-ring sitting on my desk today when it clicked in my head. Because I placed the screws with the head down, I had to find a round object to go around the screw head. I turned out the spare o-rings fit nicely. While one o-ring is not enough to actually prevent the keyboard from touching the surface sits on, two o-ring works very well. Because it doesn't fit properly around the screw head, the second o-ring kept falling, so I decided to glue the two o-ring together. It makes it harder for the two to fall. Due to this modification, the keyboard sits around half a millimetre taller., which is be barely noticeable. I'll provide more feedback in a couple of days, maybe the o-ring will turn out to wear out too quickly.

    I hope that gives ideas to others.

    Regards,
    Shad

    P.-S.: my ErgoDox is now one step closer to perfection.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: litster on Sun, 14 July 2013, 23:55:36
    Gentooman PM'ed me for the case dxf zip file because he can't download it for some reason.  I can't attach a file in a PM, so I am posting it here.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mcbonz on Mon, 15 July 2013, 11:22:57
    Oh my God! I got to have one of these! This is just the most awesome ergonomic keyboard I ever saw so far. And It's open source and fully programmable!
    Love you guys.  :-*

    Please tell me this is not going to be the last batch!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Mon, 15 July 2013, 12:07:49
    Oh my God! I got to have one of these! This is just the most awesome ergonomic keyboard I ever saw so far. And It's open source and fully programmable!
    Love you guys.  :-*

    Please tell me this is not going to be the last batch!

    Sign up at massdrop.com and click on request for next ergodox groupbuy. At approaching 200 requests and growing i'm pretty sure it'll happen soon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tensor on Tue, 16 July 2013, 16:57:53
    Hey, after a long time decided to post my first Ergodox build. I only got the PCBs from the first group buy, since I missed the whole package and sourced everything from other places.
    Biggest issue was the case for the PCBs, since 3D printing is a tad bit too expensive for my tastes at the moment, though it produces awesome cased. Ultimately went with the idea of making my case from wood, so I went to grab a ****ty but big 3mm thick composite wood panel from a local shop. With 3mm per layer I went with one bottom plate, three sandwiched and one top layer. The bottom and middle layers are glued together, while the top is screwed into the glued section, so I can always access the PCBs if the need arises.
    The PCBs are not screwed into the case, since the fitting is so tight I have issues removing them from the case :)

    A little mod I did was to place a B/W 1" OLED (128x64) screen onto the right hand side. I hooked it up to the I2C bus, but have not yet modified to firmware to communicate with it. When I get time that will get worked out. Planning to show key modifiers and layer position, will add features as I find them usefull.
    Power consumption of the screen is 20mA when fully lit, 1mA when no LED is active, pretty decent.

    As for the pictures (highres here (http://imgur.com/a/Sqw5u/layout/horizontal#0)):

    (http://i.imgur.com/Oo4CmRYh.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/ZEBVqtnh.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/hU0JhB5h.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/SBmCW10h.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zifle on Tue, 16 July 2013, 18:25:59
    That's pretty awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing what use you can get out of the screen!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 16 July 2013, 18:38:37
    Me too :). Good to see the I2C bus being put to extra use.  Also cool to see a custom case made out of wood. I've been wondering about the practicality of doing that...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 17 July 2013, 03:14:36
    That's pretty cool! I love seeing people go creative and make things themselves.

    That "composite wood" material makes the case look as if it was made of gingerbread, though. ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wcbzero on Wed, 17 July 2013, 19:00:37
    Does anyone have SVG files for the Acrylic Case Designed by Litster?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 17 July 2013, 19:47:22
    You can get the dxf here: http://ergodox.org/Downloads/ErgoDox_Acrylic_Case_Designed_by_Litster.zip
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wcbzero on Thu, 18 July 2013, 08:33:24
    Do you know how thick of arcylic is intended to be used? Preferably in inches.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 18 July 2013, 09:06:27
    This is what I told Massdrop, and the thickness I used for the ErgoDox case I designed.  From top to bottom:

    1/8"
    3/16"
    3/16" <--- mounting plate
    3/16"
    1/8"


    Acrylic sheets thickness vary from batch to batch, even from the same company.  Generally they are 1/64" to 1/32" thinner than they are spec'ed.  Buy and cut your acrylic sheets with caution.  You want the acrylic mounting plate be as thick as possible to minimize plate flex while still fits between the switches and the PCB.  This is not a problem with aluminum or stainless steel plates.  But acrylic is too flexible at 1/16" or even 1/8".
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wcbzero on Thu, 18 July 2013, 10:10:56
    Great! Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Rolz73 on Fri, 19 July 2013, 21:47:16
    Just showing off my keyboard stands mod.

    Check out the build images here:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249 (https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 19 July 2013, 23:39:56
    Just showing off my keyboard stands mod.

    Check out the build images here:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249 (https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249)

    interesting...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jagriff on Fri, 19 July 2013, 23:45:56
    Just showing off my keyboard stands mod.

    Check out the build images here:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249 (https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249)
    Genius! Does the board slide at all?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: actionbastard on Sat, 20 July 2013, 18:41:11
    Just showing off my keyboard stands mod.

    Check out the build images here:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249 (https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5902104642028883249)

    neat

    I'm cheap, do you think  these  (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Medium-Octopus-Function-Holder-Tripod-Stand-Gorillapod-for-Camera-DV-GPS-Webcam-/121084954945?pt=US_Tripods&hash=item1c3139c941=) would work? Might want to try this down the road.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Sun, 21 July 2013, 03:24:30
    Do I have to solder all the diodes before I can see if the diodes are working? As in I am trying to short out a switch after trying to install a diode to see if it works, but I am not getting any reaction from it.
    I am doing this because I had soldered a bunch of diodes incorrectly, so I desoldered them and am now at the beginning of soldering the diodes back in the right position and place.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Sun, 21 July 2013, 10:55:09
    Do I have to solder all the diodes before I can see if the diodes are working? As in I am trying to short out a switch after trying to install a diode to see if it works, but I am not getting any reaction from it.
    I am doing this because I had soldered a bunch of diodes incorrectly, so I desoldered them and am now at the beginning of soldering the diodes back in the right position and place.

    Not all of them but most of them. I did the same thing on the left hand and until you solder the row and column you won't get anything for that interesting switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Sun, 21 July 2013, 15:41:29
    Thanks, BlueByLiquid =) I'll just have to do that then.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Sun, 21 July 2013, 23:38:39
    Sorry for double post, but I have two issues I've run into.
    One is that numlock doesn't register and some keys register two different keys. I have only soldered diodes on one side.
    Any ideas?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 22 July 2013, 00:23:24
    Sorry for double post, but I have two issues I've run into.
    One is that numlock doesn't register and some keys register two different keys. I have only soldered diodes on one side.
    Any ideas?

    1. You have to access the numlock on the layer that it's on to trigger it. Where did you download your firmware from?

    2. Could be anything from a bad solder joint to a bad switch. You'll have to do some trial and error to find out which. For now, I'd reflow the diodes on those affected keys.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Mon, 22 July 2013, 01:18:30
    I got the standard firmware from where ever that was =)
    I reflowed the diodes that were firing more than one key, but it didn't change anything.
    I don't have any switches installed yet because I don't want to have to desolder everything again if something is still wrong.
    The interesting part is that the keys that register two keys act normal if I touch the teensy or use controller. They fire more than one key if I touch some other diodes.
    I think I see the problem brb.

    Edit:
    I found that one of the pins on the use connector wasn't even in the hole so I reseated it, but that didn't change the double key thing.

    Edit 2:
    And it only happens on the thumb cluster on the right hand.
    Going to take a closer look.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 22 July 2013, 01:50:06
    high res pictures of the affect pictures might help. As for the numlock thingy - I remember the default firmware from github didn't turn on leds for some reason. Get one from https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/

    or use

    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=7M8A25&hash=8b7a6e38c7b6eef66f3f4ff9ea58476e

    which leaves the numlock and capslk on the 1st layer so you can test the leds if you've already soldered those in (doesn't sound like you have).

    side note*: as the numpad actually resides on L2, even if the numlock is on, you'd still have to be on layer 2 to access the pad (meaning you'll need to press +L2 once while you're on the default layer to access it. An alternative example is that you're already on layer 2, but if the numlock isn't on, those become cursor keys on the numpad.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Mon, 22 July 2013, 01:58:03
    I'll take a picture tomorrow =)
    I reflowed the chip and teensy and that seemed to help alt and ctrl, but enter and space are still firing pg up too. It's too late to do more work right now, but I'll look into it when I get time. Maybe try the diodes one more time.
    They act normally if I touch the board while shorting the keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 22 July 2013, 05:46:50
    If I don't want to use the led's that come with the ErgoDox, can I just omit them and their corresponding resistors, or is it necessary to bridge the current path to complete the circuit?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Tue, 23 July 2013, 01:23:36
    I've just spent a lot more time trying to figure this out.
    I soldered all the switches into the board as I now have the diodes on the back so I can easily fix them if I did something wrong.
    The right hand that used to fire two different keys on the thumb cluster now acts perfectly normally, but almost the entire bottom row on the left hand is firing two keys now.
    Does anybody have any idea why this is happening? I'm going to take a picture of the bottom row, but I warn you that I have soldered and desoldered this board a couple of times so it's not exactly pretty.

    Here's the image of the left hand (bottom row has the misfiring keys):
    [attach=1]

    I also uploaded a video so you can see what I am talking about:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 23 July 2013, 02:32:47
    I suggest you check the transponder. It's a wild guess but I think one of the pads might be shorting with another. It appears that you've used a lot of solder, and given how close those pads are for the transponder, it's possible that two of the pads are being connected by solder (if not on the same side, then on the other), which would explain the firing of two different keys at once.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Tue, 23 July 2013, 04:33:08
    It's not hard to miss the diode legs to the pad, so take a magnifying glass to verify all those diode solder joints again. If you're absolutely sure it's not the diode, then flash with a different firmware to see if you replicate the same problems. It's possible that the firmware handles one side differently than if two sides were connected. Then reflow both sides of the teensy pins. Based on your pic, I'm not exact sure but it looks like the left-most teensy pin on the bottom row and 4th pin on the top row might not be bonded with the through-hole pads. Flux greatly helps with solder bonding and reflow.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Tue, 23 July 2013, 13:33:41
    Thanks for the suggestions, WFD and Larken.
    I went over the diodes again for the fifth time but they were all fine.
    I used the stock firmware and also tried others but had the same issue.
    I took the too much solder suggestion to heart and had a look at the expander. I used wick to remove most of the surface solder, then I reflowed with the tiniest amount of solder.
    Thanks for all the help. I finally have a fully functional ergodox.
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/24/e8atedy5.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 23 July 2013, 13:47:30
    Awesome news, Glissant. 

    And I'm glad to see all the information here - since, I'll be starting to build mine in the next few weeks.  Finally, go my kit back from TheProf/MD.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dominicclifton on Tue, 23 July 2013, 18:23:18
    Hi Guys,  just thought I'd share my layouts and build photos.

    I'm a leftie and have been using an Ergodex for years (the ergo keyboard with removable sticky keys), and I even wrote Windows 7 drivers for them too.  Anyway, to complement it I bought one of these Ergodox keyboards and have been tinkering with it off and on since i built it a few weeks ago.  Gotta say I'm loving it.

    Keys wise I ordered light blue, black and dark grey keys from www.wasdkeyboards.com, yes expensive but i've not seen any other places that do keycap singles from.  I went with a number set, a qwerty set, a cursor key set and a few tab 1.50 keys.  For the 2.00 keys I used numpad Enter keys and for the thumb keys above them row 1 keys.  This means that when pressing them you don't press the ones underneath.  Oh I also used row 2 blank 'home' keys on the PgUp/Home keys so again you can locate the keys without looking.  That works well.

    Since I do programming and various command line activities the default ergodox layout wasn't good for me.  I also wanted an inverse T cursor key layout.  Having the cursor keys under the right hand 'home' keys makes it a breeze to move around after typing in the editor i use.  Also having the backslash and forward slash keys near where they are on a qwerty keyboard helps too.

    Thanks to another poster on here I too added a gaming layout with a sort of weird inverse mirror one hand qwerty layout.  The idea being that i just use normal game keyboard layouts/configuration but use my right hand on the keyboard and left hand for the mouse which is the opposite for normal gamers.  My Ergodex layout is pretty much identical except for an extra row of numbers above the normal number keys.

    I've also ordered, but they have not yet arrived, some textured Enter keys and some textured tab keys.  I plan to use the textured keys for the space and backspace keys since those are the ones you use most on each thumb.  I will use the textured tab keys as layer shift keys since the texture I ordered was called 'dot grid' and that kinda looks like keys :D

    Lastly I am using Cherry MX clears for all keys except the modifier keys which are Cherry MX blues.  It's really nice to have different feedback for keys with special meanings.

    Enjoy!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dominicclifton on Tue, 23 July 2013, 18:40:31
    Oh yes, i forgot to add that i also bought key stabilizers for the 2.00 keys and they were a pain to fit because the layer of plastic that they keys fit into are too thick for the black tray mount key stabilizers.

    http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-plate-mounted-stabilizer-clips-2pcs.html

    There are holes in the right place but the stabilizers bent inwards too much and also pop out.  I had to file down the locating tabs on the inserts and glue them in place, very fiddly and also required filing the case a bit too to get the key and two inserts lined up correctly.

    My advise:  fit the key stabilizers BEFORE soldering any keys if you are going to use them, at least that way you will be able to get your file tool into the holes to make them wider as required.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 24 July 2013, 12:52:06
    Very nice, I like your keycaps, and the way you implemented the arrow keys... it looks great for QWERTY (not so much for Dvorak since you have to move letter keys though)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 26 July 2013, 00:20:12
    Crazy. Interest for round 4 is about to top 300 people.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glissant on Fri, 26 July 2013, 00:33:38
    You got a link to this fourth interest check?

    Never mind =) went to the original one lol.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:56:14
    suddenly the left hand of my ergodox stoped working. Prior to that it was running fine for the last 5 months.  I re-solder all the critical parts but it didn't solve the problem. I know this isn't a lot of information but anyone has an idea what I can do to solve this?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 26 July 2013, 22:13:57
    Could be the io expander, or a bad joint for the 1/8" TRRS connector on either side. There's quite a few points of failure between the two halves.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 27 July 2013, 01:42:30
    suddenly the left hand of my ergodox stoped working. Prior to that it was running fine for the last 5 months.  I re-solder all the critical parts but it didn't solve the problem. I know this isn't a lot of information but anyone has an idea what I can do to solve this?

    Check for bad solder joints on one of the TRRS connectors. It's possible it's a bad cable as well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Sat, 27 July 2013, 08:36:26
    Crazy. Interest for round 4 is about to top 300 people.

    Sales of this thing are inching into the hundreds of thousands.  With no advertising.  This thing has serious legs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sat, 27 July 2013, 08:53:02

    Sales of this thing are inching into the hundreds of thousands.  With no advertising.  This thing has serious legs.

    Can't tell if serious....

    I thought interest would have died down after the second round, but I do agree it seems to be getting more popular, not less
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sat, 27 July 2013, 08:56:08
    Hundred of Thousands ?!?!?!?!?!? :-\
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sat, 27 July 2013, 08:59:18
    There's been three runs on MassDrop of around 200 people each I believe. Not quite hundreds of thousands.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 09:01:42
    There's been three runs on MassDrop of around 200 people each I believe. Not quite hundreds of thousands.

    It's still not that bad. 600 people saved from RSI.

    Ok, not really.

    But still...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 27 July 2013, 09:35:38
    I wish TP4 would come back I miss him :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Dreyer on Sat, 27 July 2013, 13:30:29
    suddenly the left hand of my ergodox stoped working. Prior to that it was running fine for the last 5 months.  I re-solder all the critical parts but it didn't solve the problem. I know this isn't a lot of information but anyone has an idea what I can do to solve this?

    Check for bad solder joints on one of the TRRS connectors. It's possible it's a bad cable as well.

    Well, I re-solder the TRRS connectos and IO expander, the cable seems fine as well since I used to connect a mp3 player to a sound system.

    Yet the left side is still dead. Next step I guess is try to buy a new IO expander...

    Thanks for the tips thought.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sat, 27 July 2013, 15:46:13
    For round 4 i wonder if they are going to finally provide a different case color and PROVIDE FEET. I still have my round 2 not built, i may sell it if AcidFire's ErgoGP ends up being the ergodox improvement it seems to be. (no pressure acidfire!)

    Crazy. Interest for round 4 is about to top 300 people.

    Sales of this thing are inching into the hundreds of thousands.  With no advertising.  This thing has serious legs.

    wut? less than a thousand have ever been produced including protos, im guessing you aren't being serious.

    suddenly the left hand of my ergodox stoped working. Prior to that it was running fine for the last 5 months.  I re-solder all the critical parts but it didn't solve the problem. I know this isn't a lot of information but anyone has an idea what I can do to solve this?

    Check for bad solder joints on one of the TRRS connectors. It's possible it's a bad cable as well.

    Well, I re-solder the TRRS connectos and IO expander, the cable seems fine as well since I used to connect a mp3 player to a sound system.

    Yet the left side is still dead. Next step I guess is try to buy a new IO expander...

    Thanks for the tips thought.

    seriously try a new cable. Just because the cable works with mp3 player doesn't mean the cable isn't bad, My left hand as died twice in the past 4 months or so the ErgoDox dropped, a new cable fixed it both times--my guess is the TRRS cables are crap they provide, haven't got around to getting a better and shorter one.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:02:27
    I wish TP4 would come back I miss him :(

    What happened to him?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:12:38
    I wish TP4 would come back I miss him :(

    What happened to him?

    we stopped feeding him......

    nah i don't know. it was kind of odd he disappeared, maybe he assumed a new identity here. Or maybe the ErgoDox was such a game changer for him that he no longer found a need to continue the hobby and geekhack.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 18:16:13
    I wish TP4 would come back I miss him :(

    What happened to him?

    we stopped feeding him......

    nah i don't know. it was kind of odd he disappeared, maybe he assumed a new identity here. Or maybe the ErgoDox was such a game changer for him that he no longer found a need to continue the hobby and geekhack.

    I guess so.

    I hope that he doesn't pull a kisakuku.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: aragon on Sun, 28 July 2013, 09:03:22
    How much is one "pair" of ergodox weight? Assuming using the acrylic classic case?
    Not sure if you ever got an answer, but mine is 957 grams including the pairing cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 09:04:56
    How much is one "pair" of ergodox weight? Assuming using the acrylic classic case?
    Not sure if you ever got an answer, but mine is 957 grams including the pairing cable.

    Thank you!! That's much lighter than my current keyboard!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Sciurid89 on Sun, 28 July 2013, 15:53:44
    I just added another request for a kit on MassDrop!

    Question for a current ErgoDox user - what is the distance from the center of the index finger homerow key to the center of the closest 2x1 thumb key? I tried the Kinesis Advantage and found that the thumb keys were much too high in the Z axis, and about 1 cm too far in the horizontal plane.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jeffgran on Sun, 28 July 2013, 17:16:13
    Crazy. Interest for round 4 is about to top 300 people.

    Sales of this thing are inching into the hundreds of thousands.  With no advertising.  This thing has serious legs.

    wut? less than a thousand have ever been produced including protos, im guessing you aren't being serious.


    Pretty sure he meant hundreds of thousands of dollars... ~1000 units at ~$300 each.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 28 July 2013, 21:05:25
    I just added another request for a kit on MassDrop!

    Question for a current ErgoDox user - what is the distance from the center of the index finger homerow key to the center of the closest 2x1 thumb key? I tried the Kinesis Advantage and found that the thumb keys were much too high in the Z axis, and about 1 cm too far in the horizontal plane.

    I measured 2 3/8" o.c. between home row index to closest 2x key. In my opinion the two 2x keys are easy enough to reach but would have been better moved a half space closer to the hand. That would have allowed easier access to the other thumb keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dyuri on Mon, 29 July 2013, 13:26:36
    I've managed to add NKRO and mouse support to Ben's firmware - based on hasu's and Soarer's work (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13162) (thanks).

    Here's the pull request (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/28) if someone is interested.

    Tested only with linux (currently I don't have access to any Windows or OSX box).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 30 July 2013, 04:06:45
    I've managed to add NKRO and mouse support to Ben's firmware - based on hasu's and Soarer's work (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13162) (thanks).

    Here's the pull request (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/28) if someone is interested.

    Tested only with linux (currently I don't have access to any Windows or OSX box).

    Waiting to try this out, once my ErgoDox is assembled.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 30 July 2013, 10:24:36
    Mouse support? Very interesting
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Sciurid89 on Tue, 30 July 2013, 11:12:38
    Okay, I'm definitely in for round 4!

    I shouldn't have any trouble remapping shift to the left thumb, right?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 30 July 2013, 11:14:38
    Don't think so -- check out the layout configurator on MassDrop's site.  You should be able to do it from there.

    If not the old trustworthy Auto-Hotkey can do it.  =)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:26:53
    suddenly the left hand of my ergodox stoped working. Prior to that it was running fine for the last 5 months.  I re-solder all the critical parts but it didn't solve the problem. I know this isn't a lot of information but anyone has an idea what I can do to solve this?

    Check for bad solder joints on one of the TRRS connectors. It's possible it's a bad cable as well.

    Well, I re-solder the TRRS connectos and IO expander, the cable seems fine as well since I used to connect a mp3 player to a sound system.

    Yet the left side is still dead. Next step I guess is try to buy a new IO expander...

    Thanks for the tips thought.

    Are you saying you tested the cable provided with the kit by using it to connect an mp3 player, or that you tried using another cable that works fine with your mp3 player? The cable required and provided with the kit is a 4-wire TRRS (stereo+mic cable), not the 3-wire TRS (stereo only) typically used as an mp3 player interconnect.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:41:53
    In case anyone might be interested in tenting plus a negative tilt, I've extended my Radio Shack PCB-standoff tenting mod to accomplish that; here's a couple pics:

    [attachimg=1]

    [attachimg=2]

    Note that I had to buy a couple longer screws (M3x0.5, 30mm long) for the longest inboard leg. I had to screw these all the way in to make all 4 feet level, ran into a bit of a snag when one screw wouldn't go in far enough (or so she said), but inverting that standoff gave enough depth from the other end. The standoffs aren't threaded fully through; there's an unthreaded span in the middle, and the threading depth from each end may differ slightly.

    See original post about my PCB-standoff tenting mod here:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg861099#msg861099
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: orki on Thu, 01 August 2013, 12:02:40
    I've managed to add NKRO and mouse support to Ben's firmware - based on hasu's and Soarer's work (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13162) (thanks).

    Here's the pull request (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/28) if someone is interested.

    This is great. I have been futzing with this for a while too but have been waiting for my Ergodoxen to arrive from the third GB to test. What does the mouse support do?

    Tested only with linux (currently I don't have access to any Windows or OSX box).

    I am on Linux as well, but I don't see why your code would not work on other operating systems. Have you tried running Plover with NKRO?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dyuri on Thu, 01 August 2013, 15:40:18
    This is great. I have been futzing with this for a while too but have been waiting for my Ergodoxen to arrive from the third GB to test. What does the mouse support do?
    You can send mouse movements, wheel movements and mouse button clicks (press/release states) with this function (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/pull/28/files#L12R46).

    I am on Linux as well, but I don't see why your code would not work on other operating systems. Have you tried running Plover with NKRO?
    I haven't tried Plover, just pressed as many keys as I can. You can of course define custom functions that trigger multiple keypresses, I haven't tried it yet, but it would be interesting to see more then 100 keypresses triggered by pressing only one key. I may try this later.

    Hasu's firmware is using 16 byte long reports and in the original thread they mentioned that 32 byte long reports worked as well, I use 24 byte long reports, it works for me and theoretically should work on other OSes as well, but "if it isn't tested, then it doesn't work" :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 01 August 2013, 16:16:21
    ATTENTION Ergodoxers!

    Keycaps for ErgoDox, SA Profile - Military Theme

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45655.0

    Base set + ErgoDox Add On = Ergodox Set

    We need 25 Add On Kits

    Spread the word


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: aragon on Thu, 01 August 2013, 16:27:50
    So I was wondering if anyone else is struggling to get used to typing on their ergodoxes?  I've been struggling with mine for about a week, and close to throwing the towel in on it.  I'm not sure what the problem is, but the keycaps seem very narrow and tall for starters (PBT DCS), and the non-staggered layout is certainly a mind warp.  I was hoping the MX browns would feel more like my laptop key switches (which I love), but I find them mushy and hard to perceive.  I've had to switch back to my usual MS Natural multiple times to get actual work done.  Even switching back is a bit of an adjustment - if I do get used to the dox, I dread the thought of struggling to type every time I'm with my laptop or at another desk.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 01 August 2013, 16:37:06
    Odd, I found it easier to get used to the ergodox with DCS or OEM profile keys over DSA, after i got up to speed i type on DSA and DCS pretty well.

    it could be the switch type, if you find yourself not liking the way your switches feel then it can change how how you feel about the board.

    Non-staggered does take some getting used to, i wouldn't suggest using any other keyboard until you get used to it but not everyone has the ability to do that.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Fri, 02 August 2013, 01:46:10
    So I was wondering if anyone else is struggling to get used to typing on their ergodoxes?  I've been struggling with mine for about a week, and close to throwing the towel in on it.  I'm not sure what the problem is, but the keycaps seem very narrow and tall for starters (PBT DCS), and the non-staggered layout is certainly a mind warp.  I was hoping the MX browns would feel more like my laptop key switches (which I love), but I find them mushy and hard to perceive.  I've had to switch back to my usual MS Natural multiple times to get actual work done.  Even switching back is a bit of an adjustment - if I do get used to the dox, I dread the thought of struggling to type every time I'm with my laptop or at another desk.


    You really need to let your muscle memory settle in before switching back to a standard layout, or it'll take ages for you to attain any kind of proficiency with the matrix layout of the ergodox. Go slow and try to hit the keys correctly first, speed can come later. Also, take breaks every 1 - 2 hours of intensive typing. Much more efficient to train your muscle memory this way than to sit one for one full eight hour session. If it matters, I got used to it after about 3 days of cold turkey typing on the ergodox.

    As for the feel of the switches, sounds like browns aren't what you're looking for - and laptop switches are most likely scissor switches. Is this your first mechanical keyboard? I'm afraid most mx switches aren't going to feel the same as the laptop keyswitches - though most people would find MX to be superior. A case of preference, I'm afraid.

    As for switching back to standard keyboards - I could probably do it if I tried, but as of now, I can no longer use one proficiently as I've been on my ergodox 100% of the time for the last few months. Just way more efficient in terms of finger movement and a lot more comfortable on the wrists.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Fri, 02 August 2013, 16:05:24
    Just got the email that Massdrop has received all parts and will begin fulfilling next week =)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 02 August 2013, 16:14:44
    Yeah, I think the PCB fabrication was a bit delayed.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 02 August 2013, 17:29:40
    Wheeeeee can't wait to put together my second one! Also really interested in what they have planned for round #4:

    Quote from: nelson
    When we first started putting the ErgoDox group buy together more than 8 months ago, we never thought we'd be able to get as much support as we have from the mechanical keyboard communities. After selling well over 500 ErgoDox keyboards (pretty crazy number, I know!), we have also learn quite a few things on optimizing supply chain efficiency, ErgoDox programmer functionality, as well as product quality.

    All I can say is that we have a few improvements planned for round 4 ErgoDox group buy. Just stay tuned :)

    From here (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 02 August 2013, 17:32:57
    improvements? what kind of improvements MassDrop? new case?

    damnit i already own 3 of these things (1 is not built and i am thinking about selling it). There is also Acidfire's ErgoGP......

    my wallleeeettttt
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Sat, 03 August 2013, 02:06:58
    The acrylic could definitely use better quality checking. I built a couple, and there is always one or two hole in one of the layers that's ever so slightly off, so one screw can't go all the way through. There was another instance were the acrylic was slightly melted or deformed in a small area. For the metal case, not sure what happened there but it was straight up not even usable out of the box. Lastly, for the PCB there are some flaws that never got fixed and the flaws just got carried through several rounds.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sat, 03 August 2013, 03:50:56
    if you are talking about the thumb cluster on the pcb, i doubt any adjustments are going to be made to the PCB. nobody here like bpiphany is doing any revisions. If you are talking about some other PCB flaws, please elaborate because the 2 I've put together worked out just fine.

    I'm really hoping for some kind of change to the case, and if they do make a change i would hope they would offer the case separately for the round 1,2,3 people to buy.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: aragon on Sun, 04 August 2013, 11:10:36
    As for switching back to standard keyboards - I could probably do it if I tried, but as of now, I can no longer use one proficiently as I've been on my ergodox 100% of the time for the last few months. Just way more efficient in terms of finger movement and a lot more comfortable on the wrists.

    Thank you for your feedback, and to Glod too.  I've decided to part with my ErgoDox (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/assembled-ergodox-t6255.html) in case anyone is interested.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: anotherjunkie on Sun, 04 August 2013, 22:09:10
    So, this may be a stupid question overall, but I really don't know:

    Is there any possibility of making this work with bluetooth, either as part of the plans or as a modification to my (round 4) order when it arrives?

    I'm disabled with a significant joint disorder, and I been looking for a new keyboard for ages. This nails every item on my list, except for the fact that since I wind up working on my iPad a lot from bed, I really have to have a bluetooth keyboard to connect to the iPad.

    I'm really excited about the 4th Massdrop, even if I can only use it on the desktop, but I'm hoping someone might have an idea for fixing it to work over Bluetooth (other than the shady imported USB-to-Bluetooth adapters...).

    Cheers!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Sun, 04 August 2013, 22:17:04
    So, this may be a stupid question overall, but I really don't know:

    Is there any possibility of making this work with bluetooth, either as part of the plans or as a modification to my (round 4) order when it arrives?

    I'm disabled with a significant joint disorder, and I been looking for a new keyboard for ages. This nails every item on my list, except for the fact that since I wind up working on my iPad a lot from bed, I really have to have a bluetooth keyboard to connect to the iPad.

    I'm really excited about the 4th Massdrop, even if I can only use it on the desktop, but I'm hoping someone might have an idea for fixing it to work over Bluetooth (other than the shady imported USB-to-Bluetooth adapters...).

    Cheers!

    I don't know about that (probably a LOT of work), but you might be interested in this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: anotherjunkie on Mon, 05 August 2013, 09:21:30
    I don't know about that (probably a LOT of work), but you might be interested in this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

    This is great. I saw it briefly yesterday, but I came away worried about traveling with the legs like that and concerned about whether or not it would gain as much steam here as the original design did. I did not see, though, that he'd planned to do some in wireless until I just went back. That's a game changer -- Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tilmann on Tue, 06 August 2013, 17:58:25
    I've been successfully using my ErgoDox for several months but yesterday the SW[0-5]9 column on the right hand stopped working. I reflowed the soldering joint which connects this column to the Teensy but it didn't help.

    Any idea how to fix this?

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Tue, 06 August 2013, 23:43:22
    Don't forget that you've got two joints there - one on the
    ErgoDox PCB, and another to the Teensy PCB...

    Short circuit to ground somewhere on your board?

    PB2 output of teensy fried?  If it's the output, you could
    re-code the firmware to use another, otherwise
    unused pin (just run a wire over to PE6 or something...)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tilmann on Wed, 07 August 2013, 03:43:12
    Thanks for the hints!

    Resoldering the joint on the Teensy PCB did it :)

    I love how easy it is to repair the ErgoDox (and this is my first real soldering project).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 15:12:01
    Last ditch effort to get people to join group buys for ErgoDox Key Caps, both of which could be dropped if there isnt any more orders

    1. DSA Profile Dolch Blanks (full set) - <24 hours left
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

    Small amount of time left. Needs 5 orders to get to to $58.06 and be a go (from what domo last said about it), 15 more orders to be $46.50

    2. "Military" Theme SA Profile (modifier ADD on to base set) <3 days left
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45655.0

    Needs 20 more people. However it is possible with the small amount of orders, sorter will purchase blanks individually and sort each manually. So it is likely this is going done even with small orders. This is expensive but very unique.

    --

    Some more ErgoDox cap sets likely going to be offered in Group Buy(s) in the coming weeks, likely by BunnyLake but not confirmed.

    Surely there are some here who want more cap choices.....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 08 August 2013, 16:34:22
    Last ditch effort to get people to join group buys for ErgoDox Key Caps, both of which could be dropped if there isnt any more orders

    1. DSA Profile Dolch Blanks (full set) - <24 hours left
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44912.0

    Small amount of time left. Needs 5 orders to get to to $58.06 and be a go (from what domo last said about it), 15 more orders to be $46.50

    2. "Military" Theme SA Profile (modifier ADD on to base set) <3 days left
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45655.0

    Needs 20 more people. However it is possible with the small amount of orders, sorter will purchase blanks individually and sort each manually. So it is likely this is going done even with small orders. This is expensive but very unique.

    --

    Some more ErgoDox cap sets likely going to be offered in Group Buy(s) in the coming weeks, likely by BunnyLake but not confirmed.

    Surely there are some here who want more cap choices.....

    All I see is sets that will end up shiny. If there was a dolch pbt set or similar I'd be all over it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 08 August 2013, 16:48:03
    that's why you get more sets, replace the ones with shine lol, maybe put tape on the 2x ones like some people do with space bars on rare stuff. get separate WASD keys to not shine up those high traffic keys. bah plus i like switching up caps to what mood im in lol.

    pbt would be cool, im just trying to influence ergodox add-on kits added to future GBs, or maybe do Ergo Add-on and add a few more keys for support for ErgoGP so then ErgoDox and ErgoGP :P

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bbl on Fri, 09 August 2013, 08:31:45
    For Ergodox, pls add legends to the modifier keys.  Current GBs offer only blank modifiers.  We can get those from MassDrop.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 09 August 2013, 08:38:43
    For Ergodox, pls add legends to the modifier keys.  Current GBs offer only blank modifiers.  We can get those from MassDrop.

    The beauty of the ErgoDox is that it has a configurable layout, so people assign mods to different keys, thus those keys are left blank to have a universal set.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 09 August 2013, 12:08:56
    Yeah it doesn't really make sense to put labels on a programmable keyboard with a much different key layout from normal, at least not for the manufacturer/distributor. Once it gets into the consumer's hands they can put legends wherever they want to.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 09 August 2013, 15:42:53
    yeah im only pushing for blanks for the modifiers, like how this is set up:
    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/9162565305_b4b710f691.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9162565305/)

    but with a couple extra R1 blanks for those who don't have the +- keys on R1.

    I know many would want all blanks but i would hope to just get SOMETHING accommodating for the ergodox than nothing. I know that some don't really care about key caps, but i do like having different ones and i can't be the only one.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 09 August 2013, 16:14:09
    To deviate a little from the current topic --- I like that wooden full hand rest for the ergodox.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 09 August 2013, 16:20:09
    :) i like it too, not the best picture of it though
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 09 August 2013, 16:35:57
    I went dig through your flickr stream to see a few more pics.  I like the setup.  And continuing to look through your stream, just made me wish I participated in a few GBs that I skipped out on. =]

    I really need to get on the ball and build one of my ergodox kits.  Ever since the TheProf assembly fiasco, I've just been looking at the box from MassDrop.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 09 August 2013, 17:45:11
    did you need assembly services? or is the extra cost not needed because you will do it yourself?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Fri, 09 August 2013, 18:33:57
    Not sure, tbh.  I was debating doing it myself, now, but lazyness may win out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 12 August 2013, 06:44:30
    started having issues with both of the trrs cables that I had (man, these things don't hold up well), and decided to make my own with some spare audio wire I had.

    (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/9494675798_39c4835649_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/9494675798/)

    (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/9491875417_9b50cb1036_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/9491875417/)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 12 August 2013, 07:06:09
    It may be a good idea to have spares. I don't think I'd ever want to be forced to use a conventional keyboard again, even temporarily.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 12 August 2013, 09:50:54
    It may be a good idea to have spares. I don't think I'd ever want to be forced to use a conventional keyboard again, even temporarily.

    Thus I got spares for everything even before building one, I/O controller, Teensy, connectors, switches, cables, everything! Perks of assembling one yourself and not using Massdrop
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tarzan on Mon, 12 August 2013, 09:54:47
    It may be a good idea to have spares. I don't think I'd ever want to be forced to use a conventional keyboard again, even temporarily.

    Thus I got spares for everything even before building one, I/O controller, Teensy, connectors, switches, cables, everything! Perks of assembling one yourself and not using Massdrop

    Speaking of assembling...  Is there a list somewhere for vendors who offer ErgoDox assembly services?  Or did I skip right over that page?  If it's on the OP I'm going to be pissed...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 09:57:27
    Wheee R3 has shipped as of this morning
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 12 August 2013, 09:59:42
    Speaking of assembling...  Is there a list somewhere for vendors who offer ErgoDox assembly services?  Or did I skip right over that page?  If it's on the OP I'm going to be pissed...

    There is a thread with list of people providing services, I think any of the assemblers there should easily assemble one of these.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 12 August 2013, 12:01:32
    It may be a good idea to have spares. I don't think I'd ever want to be forced to use a conventional keyboard again, even temporarily.


    might be a better idea to make your own cables than have a few spares. if made with thick gauge wires (around 24 awg would be the thickest I'd go, but 26awg would be ideal) and braided with a flat iem-style braid, I imagine it would last a very long time (especially considering the fact that one doesn't move the keyboard all the often compared to earphones). My ergodox finally stopped dropping out (been doing that for the last few days) after the cable change, and as far as I can see, short of tugging the entire wire out from the solder joint, it's unlikely to spoil.

    I was quite surprised to have both of my stock cables from the massdrop kit conk out on me recently, when I haven't actually been too rough with them. Made me open up my ergodox a couple of times to check if it was a bad solder joint before I realized it was the cable - and two at once at that.

    It may be a good idea to have spares. I don't think I'd ever want to be forced to use a conventional keyboard again, even temporarily.

    Thus I got spares for everything even before building one, I/O controller, Teensy, connectors, switches, cables, everything! Perks of assembling one yourself and not using Massdrop

    Speaking of assembling...  Is there a list somewhere for vendors who offer ErgoDox assembly services?  Or did I skip right over that page?  If it's on the OP I'm going to be pissed...

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45886.0



    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tarzan on Mon, 12 August 2013, 12:11:57
    Thus I got spares for everything even before building one, I/O controller, Teensy, connectors, switches, cables, everything! Perks of assembling one yourself and not using Massdrop

    Speaking of assembling...  Is there a list somewhere for vendors who offer ErgoDox assembly services?  Or did I skip right over that page?  If it's on the OP I'm going to be pissed...

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45886.0

    Thanks, guys!  I'm going down the list, seeing who's closest to me and has room in their project queue!   :-\

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 12:38:18
    I've been trying to find, but what is the thread of the bolts that come with the ErgoDox? I want to look at a few different types of cap nuts
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 12 August 2013, 12:46:12
    I've been trying to find, but what is the thread of the bolts that come with the ErgoDox? I want to look at a few different types of cap nuts

    Metric size 3.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Mon, 12 August 2013, 15:11:32
    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Mon, 12 August 2013, 15:37:20
    Just to add - this is what I got from MassDrop when I asked about the screws a few weeks back:

    Quote from: 'MassDrop'
    Metric Zinc-Plated Steel Hex Nut, Class 6, M3 Size, .5MM Pitch, 5.5MM W, 2.4MM H

    Metric Class 12.9 Socket Head Cap Screw, Alloy Steel, M3 Thread, 22MM Length, 0.50MM Pitch
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 13 August 2013, 01:40:13
    started having issues with both of the trrs cables that I had (man, these things don't hold up well), and decided to make my own with some spare audio wire I had.

    yeah i've gone through 2 TRRS cables myself, on the third

    ordered the connectors to make my own as well because of this; similar to those.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 09:21:00
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vun on Tue, 13 August 2013, 09:27:48
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Something like this?
    (http://i.imgur.com/dFfoTLn.jpg)

    And that's taken from a Norwegian website, if I can manage to find one here then it should be fairly easy to find one in the US.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Tue, 13 August 2013, 09:43:42
    Aye - those aren't too uncommon! You can probably find it on Digikey or Mouser fairly easily.

    Massdrop folks are suppose to be getting out tracking numbers soon - this is very exciting! I guess it's time to buy an iron and some solder..
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 09:44:35
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Something like this?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/dFfoTLn.jpg)


    And that's taken from a Norwegian website, if I can manage to find one here then it should be fairly easy to find one in the US.

    That's a TRS, not TRRS. Also, that's the connector. I'm looking for complete cables with dual right angle plugs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 13 August 2013, 09:44:58
    Aye - those aren't too uncommon! You can probably find it on Digikey or Mouser fairly easily.

    Massdrop folks are suppose to be getting out tracking numbers soon - this is very exciting! I guess it's time to buy an iron and some solder..

    Got mine this morning, delivery will be the day after tomorrow, yay!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Tue, 13 August 2013, 10:56:03
    Aye - those aren't too uncommon! You can probably find it on Digikey or Mouser fairly easily.

    Massdrop folks are suppose to be getting out tracking numbers soon - this is very exciting! I guess it's time to buy an iron and some solder..

    Lol - I still need to pick up an iron/solder to build my kits from round 1.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vun on Tue, 13 August 2013, 11:03:47
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Something like this?
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/dFfoTLn.jpg)


    And that's taken from a Norwegian website, if I can manage to find one here then it should be fairly easy to find one in the US.

    That's a TRS, not TRRS. Also, that's the connector. I'm looking for complete cables with dual right angle plugs.

    Ah, sorry, I was in a hurry so I overlooked that part.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 13 August 2013, 22:49:38
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    http://www.showmecables.com/product/3-5mm-Plug-TRRS-Right-Angle-Connector-Plastic.aspx

    not something I'd recommend though. Instead of individual tabs to solder to, this one has a center pole, which is pretty difficult to solder to, though still possible.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 14 August 2013, 08:51:59
    It looks like there's yet another group buy happening on Massdrop for this!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: oTurtlez on Wed, 14 August 2013, 09:02:46
    It looks like there's yet another group buy happening on Massdrop for this!

    Says who? I know an R4 will happen eventually but it seems to be dead still.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Wed, 14 August 2013, 09:47:18
    It looks like there's yet another group buy happening on Massdrop for this!

    I followed the link in the r3 shipping notification and came to a page which seemingly show an ongoing ergodox group buy. Possibly there's a conflict in time continuem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:09:30
    It looks like there's yet another group buy happening on Massdrop for this!

    I followed the link in the r3 shipping notification and came to a page which seemingly show an ongoing ergodox group buy. Possibly there's a conflict in time continuem.

    Huehuehue
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:42:00
    R4 isn't up on MassDrop yet, but not to worry. Interest for another round is higher than it ever has been before (400+ requests!!!)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:50:10
    Keep the momentum going!!! Ergonomic rules.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: oTurtlez on Wed, 14 August 2013, 10:51:02
    R4 isn't up on MassDrop yet, but not to worry. Interest for another round is higher than it ever has been before (400+ requests!!!)

    Can't wait for R4, hopefully they have a choice of what kind of case you want!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 14 August 2013, 12:00:53
    Can't say I'll be participating in another ErgoDox buy through MassDrop - I picked up two kits on R1, because I was afraid we wouldn't have any more (wrong idea, right?).  I would be interested in some more case options, though.  I'd like to see an option for colored acrylic.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Wed, 14 August 2013, 19:26:08
    Aluminum plates are back, full and partial assembly, cherry reds, and over 600 requests.

    What. The. ****.

    Too bad I'm now more interested in the ErgoGP and 70% version
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 15 August 2013, 09:33:34
    I'm liking this popularity of the  Ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: uJalled on Thu, 15 August 2013, 09:58:16
    Can't wait to try the magical rainbow of wonderfull-ness that is described by TP4 in all of his posts
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 12:24:19
    Aluminum plates are back, full and partial assembly, cherry reds, and over 600 requests.

    What. The. ****.

    Too bad I'm now more interested in the ErgoGP and 70% version

    unless the aluminium is cut by someone else with better materials and anodized and matches the correct cutting so no sanding and filing is required it is not worth it to go aluminium, that crap is horrible, is only good for pretty pictures and for the sake of saying "i own an aluminium ergodox"
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BlueByLiquid on Thu, 15 August 2013, 12:31:30
    As horrible of a job as Massdrop did with the ergodox acrylic (stratched doesn't line up well, Had to do massive sanding even after they sent me a replacement set)  I wouldn't want to pay extra to see how poor of a job they will do with aluminum. Plus they have ignored all the comments (even repeated direct questions) about the quality of the printer and if they are going to get a new one in the comment section.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 12:56:04
    I have the aluminium and acrylic from round 1, and then an unopened acrylic from round 2. The aluminium sucks so bad; i polished it up pretty for some pictures but it looks bad right now after heavy use. The acrylic, i hated the clear so much that i used vinyl to cover it.

    Clear acrylic to me is just a really bad idea, i know there are some fans, i recognize them, but i think people are getting the ergodox for the functionality and not for looks but would still appreciate a choice of acrylic color/surface.

    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 15 August 2013, 13:07:39
    Just for the records, I am still glad I have the aluminum. I'm sure it helps protect the finish having it set into a board however. I would want to see Massdrop's new aluminum top plate before I bought it  if I didn't have the means to clean it up.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 15 August 2013, 13:41:22
    I have the aluminium and acrylic from round 1, and then an unopened acrylic from round 2. The aluminium sucks so bad; i polished it up pretty for some pictures but it looks bad right now after heavy use. The acrylic, i hated the clear so much that i used vinyl to cover it.

    Clear acrylic to me is just a really bad idea, i know there are some fans, i recognize them, but i think people are getting the ergodox for the functionality and not for looks but would still appreciate a choice of acrylic color/surface.

    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.

    I like the black-clear-black-ect sandwich acrylic.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 15 August 2013, 14:41:15
    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.

    Have you found something better?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 15 August 2013, 14:42:16
    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.

    Have you found something better?

    ErgoGP
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:02:22
    Just for the records, I am still glad I have the aluminum. I'm sure it helps protect the finish having it set into a board however. I would want to see Massdrop's new aluminum top plate before I bought it  if I didn't have the means to clean it up.

    i didn't have the proper tools to clean it up like you did :D you did an amazing job.

    This is the best i could do after spending almost an entire day sanding
    (see larger version of image to see scratches and stuff)

    (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5521/9516873213_58c89709d6.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9516873213/)
    (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7290/9516877031_b4141bcf97.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9516877031/)
    (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2850/9519658934_5c01a50953.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9519658934/)
    (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5343/9516865091_209637872d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9516865091/)
    (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3764/9519652252_9de733d888.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9519652252/)
    (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3749/9516932879_c2605f2188_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/9516932879/)

    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.

    Have you found something better?


    i think two is enough lol, when i mean im selling my third i mean i have 3 ergodox and selling 1.

    plus things like ErgoGP and possibly other Ergo Boards
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:32:07
    ErgoGP's creator is certainly skilled and prolific. He seems to have all the bases covered from design to distribution. Impressive. I'm curious to hear how well the ergonomics of the drop thumb clusters work.

    Regarding aluminum plates-
    The plate design needs very tight tolerances to look right but even if they were cut perfect, the open plates ( the plates that are open for input jacks) could be easily be deformed in handling making alignment difficult. Tighter tolerances for the screws would have helped some also.

    Glod- I understand your frustration with the scratching (anodizing would help) but that doesn't diminish the fact that you still have a nice looking keyboard there.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mkawa on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:36:45
    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:39:32
    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.

    pics!!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 15 August 2013, 15:51:49
    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.
    I saw your post in the 3D printing thread and got excited.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 15 August 2013, 16:01:18
    I have the aluminium and acrylic from round 1, and then an unopened acrylic from round 2. The aluminium sucks so bad; i polished it up pretty for some pictures but it looks bad right now after heavy use. The acrylic, i hated the clear so much that i used vinyl to cover it.

    Clear acrylic to me is just a really bad idea, i know there are some fans, i recognize them, but i think people are getting the ergodox for the functionality and not for looks but would still appreciate a choice of acrylic color/surface.

    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.
    Do you want to sell this acrylic case Glod???
    I'm interested!!!
     :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 15 August 2013, 16:21:41
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Would this work?

    http://www.calradstore.com/55-869b-3.html
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mkawa on Thu, 15 August 2013, 16:26:00
    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.

    pics!!

    POTATOOOOO
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 16:38:41
    I have the aluminium and acrylic from round 1, and then an unopened acrylic from round 2. The aluminium sucks so bad; i polished it up pretty for some pictures but it looks bad right now after heavy use. The acrylic, i hated the clear so much that i used vinyl to cover it.

    Clear acrylic to me is just a really bad idea, i know there are some fans, i recognize them, but i think people are getting the ergodox for the functionality and not for looks but would still appreciate a choice of acrylic color/surface.

    whatever, done buying ergodoxes lol, selling my third one soon.
    Do you want to sell this acrylic case Glod???
    I'm interested!!!
     :p

    I'm going to be selling assembled most likely, really want to help out someone who doesn't have ability to assemble one but really wants one.

    currently missing parts right now though for it, somehow lost the diodes, expander, TRRS cable, TRRS connector and bolts/nuts. Once i find those or buy new ones im gonna put it up in the classified

    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.

    pics!!

    POTATOOOOO


    hell yeah! is this more of an experiment or something that could possibly be sold? the shapeways version is expensive as **** http://www.shapeways.com/search?q=ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 15 August 2013, 16:46:39
    I'm going to be selling assembled most likely, really want to help out someone who doesn't have ability to assemble one but really wants one.
    I do understand and I do agree, no problem at all.
     :)

    i am making my first test print of dox's STL files for the original case. they will be bright pink, because i know you guys are into that stuff.

    they are HUGE though. no idea how they're going to turn out.

    pics!!

    POTATOOOOO
    I'm planning to print the ergodox case but I'm not sure IF my unfinished printer will have a good quality for these amount of bridges I saw.
    Gosh!
    Pray brothers! Pray!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 15 August 2013, 18:30:32
    OMG thank the LORD they pre-soldered the pins to the Teensy this time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 18:50:58
    (http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/hehheheh.png)

    heh heh heh

    i wonder if massdrop will sell the aluminium top plate seperate, im sure some would want it, hell id grab it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 15 August 2013, 19:10:57
    Show Image
    (http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/hehheheh.png)


    heh heh heh

    i wonder if massdrop will sell the aluminium top plate seperate, im sure some would want it, hell id grab it.

    Same here! Although I'd prefer a black anodized top plate
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 15 August 2013, 19:12:30
    Show Image
    (http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/hehheheh.png)


    heh heh heh

    i wonder if massdrop will sell the aluminium top plate seperate, im sure some would want it, hell id grab it.

    Same here! Although I'd prefer a black anodized top plate

    black or grey hell yeah. Someone want to volunteer to email MassDrop about selling these separate?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vun on Thu, 15 August 2013, 19:29:55
    Hmm.. Debating whether or not I should get another one, even though I haven't gotten mine from the last drop yet.
    Would be nice to have one normal and one full-hand one, maybe with alu top depending on finish.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Latin00032 on Thu, 15 August 2013, 23:28:00
    Show Image
    (http://almightyglod.com/public_stack/hehheheh.png)


    heh heh heh

    i wonder if massdrop will sell the aluminium top plate seperate, im sure some would want it, hell id grab it.

    Same here! Although I'd prefer a black anodized top plate

    black or grey hell yeah. Someone want to volunteer to email MassDrop about selling these separate?

    I posted 2 messages on the massdrop forum about getting just the aluminum top plate.

    I haven't gotten any answers yet.

    Maybe some one else can help us with this.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Thu, 15 August 2013, 23:39:31
    Is the gold plated for real?
    Yeah I would to get just the aluminum plate.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mikelanding on Thu, 15 August 2013, 23:42:25
    I sent an email asking about purchase alu top plate alone a moment ago. Hope can get some reply.
    By the way, any Ergodox user with Full Hand case want to swap to Full hand case? I have 2 Ergodox (Fullhand and Classic). I prefer the fullhand. My classic with lubed Red switch now idling :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 00:51:17
    Poll for Aluminum Top Plate Only: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/unnamed-poll-61
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Fri, 16 August 2013, 01:38:39
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Would this work?

    http://www.calradstore.com/55-869b-3.html

    I think it should, great find!

    (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-128684775214836_2271_182375037)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Fri, 16 August 2013, 01:40:43
    Not sure if there's a different thread for stuff like this, but...

    I got my ergodox kit today. Funny story, I wanted the dox with the cherry reds, so I purchased a different keyboard with the reds so I could harvest the switches for the ergodox. Well I got the other keyboard about a month ago, and I love it. Now I have a kit, and don't want it.

    Anyone out there interested in buying a full hand kit (no switches or keycaps)? I'll sell it for the $155 I paid, and I'll eat the cost of the shipping. I'm in the US, so shipping priority somewhere else in the states should be easy. I'm not sure what the best way to exchange money would be, but we can work something out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Fri, 16 August 2013, 04:21:30
    Woo, I'm in! :)
    I've elected to build it myself, and I'm hoping that decision doesn't come back to bite me.

    I have a cheapish soldering iron, solder and some solder wick. What else should I look at getting prior to the bits arriving?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 16 August 2013, 04:33:35
    Woo, I'm in! :)
    I've elected to build it myself, and I'm hoping that decision doesn't come back to bite me.

    I have a cheapish soldering iron, solder and some solder wick. What else should I look at getting prior to the bits arriving?

    Better Iron, 63/37 rosin core solder, a soldapult.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Fri, 16 August 2013, 08:59:47
    I bought a hakko fx-888d specifically for building the ErgoDox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 18 August 2013, 03:17:23
    I'm still a little confused regarding the direction of the diodes (Npt in the switch), the square pad is where the cathode end goes for both the left and right. correct?

    As for the LEDs, if I am swapping the location of the resistance and the LED, which LED terminal goes into which hole as the resistor hole doesn't have demarcation for cathode/anode.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ranska on Sun, 18 August 2013, 04:51:45
    I realy love it. Durring many time i have try to make my hown but finally i will buy our. And using it until i finish my own.

    Important  question for me.

    I didn't see the altgr key on this keyboard.

    I want to use my own bepo (french dovrak) on it and i use a lot of altgr key on it.
    Is it easy to change the layout to add altgr key ?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:25:38
    I bought a hakko fx-888d specifically for building the ErgoDox

    I did the same thing on Friday  ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 18 August 2013, 16:24:30
    I'm still a little confused regarding the direction of the diodes (Npt in the switch), the square pad is where the cathode end goes for both the left and right. correct?

    That is correct.

    As for the LEDs, if I am swapping the location of the resistance and the LED, which LED terminal goes into which hole as the resistor hole doesn't have demarcation for cathode/anode.

    See [attachmini=1], and near the end of this documentation (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0.md).  The anode should be closest to the Teensy.

    I didn't see the altgr key on this keyboard.

    I believe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltGr_key) that "right alt" is what "alt gr" is called in US layouts.  Names for keys were taken from the USB specification, which seems to use the US names for most things.

    Is it easy to change the layout to add altgr key ?

    As easy as adding a "right alt" key to your layout, unless I'm mistaken :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 18 August 2013, 20:46:44
    Thanks ic07.

    I figured the diodes, only the  switched, LED and Teensy left. I'd forgotten to get breakout pins :/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 19 August 2013, 02:15:01
    I'm still a little confused regarding the direction of the diodes (Npt in the switch), the square pad is where the cathode end goes for both the left and right. correct?

    Correct, the cathode end of the diode with the line gets soldered to the square pad on the PCB. For SMD diodes, you would  look for the square pad for thru-hole diodes and use the SMD pad that's connected to that. Also note that the diode orientation is mirror-imaged for each hand.

    Quote
    As for the LEDs, if I am swapping the location of the resistance and the LED, which LED terminal goes into which hole as the resistor hole doesn't have demarcation for cathode/anode.

    The LED cathodes (shorter leg) would go into each hole furthest away from the Teensy. See the last paragraph and photo in this post for other important considerations:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg903055#msg903055
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 20 August 2013, 00:53:40
    Also note that the diode orientation is mirror-imaged for each hand.
    Why you do this, I am confused again  :-\

    The LED cathodes (shorter leg) would go into each hole furthest away from the Teensy. See the last paragraph and photo in this post for other important considerations:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg903055#msg903055
    And this is for all three LEDs?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pocketdrummer on Tue, 20 August 2013, 01:42:42
    Here you go. I put them in but one side popped out because the wedge that normally grabs the underside of the plate (on normal keyboards with thin plates) needs to be filed off so it becomes like the red portion in the photo you provided in another thread:
    Show Image
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41937.0;attach=17766;image)


    Can you show pictures of what you did to get the stabilizers to work? I just bought an ergodox, and I know I'm going to want to remove all the wiggle I possibly can.

    Just FYI... I used a small Dremel Engraving Cutter with a round cutter to make a dent inside each slot at both ends.  I am surprised at how well the stab mount works now.  No need to file/cut off the snap.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thisMoment on Tue, 20 August 2013, 05:44:10
    Man I really, really wish right angle TRRS cables weren't impossible to find.

    Would this work?

    http://www.calradstore.com/55-869b-3.html

    I think it should, great find!

    Show Image
    (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-128684775214836_2271_182375037)


    This website has a minimum purchase of $25 (~3 cables)

    Would anyone be interested in getting together to get some of these?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 21 August 2013, 11:35:28
    Just got my two Ergodoxen from GB3 in the mail today!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 21 August 2013, 12:08:30
    So, question to the builders in the community.  From a soldering perspective what do I need to make sure I have (at a minimum) to get started on the build?

    Solder iron
    Solder wire .20
    Desoldering (iron/braid/soldapullt)

    Would I need anything else to get started on the builds?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 21 August 2013, 12:37:56
    While not necessary, I found a rosin flux pen helpful to guarantee a good solder flow.

    Fine pointed tweezers for locating the smd's.

    Have fun!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 21 August 2013, 12:52:24
    Thanks, kurplop.

    Slowly trying to pickup everything I need. Considering how long I've been lurking/posting on GH, I'm surprised I didn't pick up the soldering gear earlier. 

    Now's as good a time as any.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 21 August 2013, 13:55:43
    Now, to find some 63/27 solder locally..
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wiredPANDA on Wed, 21 August 2013, 14:47:16
    I'll probably end up ordering it online and having it shipped in.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Wed, 21 August 2013, 15:29:49
    Also note that the diode orientation is mirror-imaged for each hand.
    Why you do this, I am confused again  :-\

    I just meant that the cathodes are oriented towards the left on one hand's PCB vs. oriented towards the right on the other hand's PCB. Some people have caused a problem when they soldered the diodes on both hands all pointed in the same direction, which caused one hand to not work.

    The LED cathodes (shorter leg) would go into each hole furthest away from the Teensy. See the last paragraph and photo in this post for other important considerations:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg903055#msg903055
    And this is for all three LEDs?

    Yes, that is correct.

    Now, to find some 63/27 solder locally..

    Think you meant 63/37? Radio Shack has .022" 62/36/2 (Sn/Pb/Ag) solder that I found quite easy to work with, perfect for the job.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 21 August 2013, 15:46:34
    so any longer time users of the ergodox have problems with the usb port almost breaking off?

    I kept thinking the reason my ergodox would spaz out was because of the TRRS cable but then i noticed what should have been obvious to me, the usb port was wobbling like crazy, i re flowed but it didn't fix it, i had to replace with a new WM17115-N and now it works great. i guess because i was disconnecting and reconnecting alot and moving around the ergodox to different positions it was too abusive to the connector. It reminds me of the issue common with the Rosewill RK9000 though this looks to me more of me being abusive and no fault of the connector massdrop provided.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 21 August 2013, 17:22:41
    Is it  possible to desolder the mini usb on the teensy and use ribbon cable to attach it to the right hand pcb?

    How about joining the  two halves with a soldered at both ends ribbon cables. Asking cause my trrs connectors might take some time coming.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 21 August 2013, 22:27:25
    Are media keys working yet?
     :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 21 August 2013, 22:28:59
    so any longer time users of the ergodox have problems with the usb port almost breaking off?

    I kept thinking the reason my ergodox would spaz out was because of the TRRS cable but then i noticed what should have been obvious to me, the usb port was wobbling like crazy, i re flowed but it didn't fix it, i had to replace with a new WM17115-N and now it works great. i guess because i was disconnecting and reconnecting alot and moving around the ergodox to different positions it was too abusive to the connector. It reminds me of the issue common with the Rosewill RK9000 though this looks to me more of me being abusive and no fault of the connector massdrop provided.

    been disconnecting mine on a daily basis (I move my keyboard somewhere else while I eat lunch at my desk) - nothing of the sort happened. But I did put on a little bit more solder on the usb port than usual, the same for the 3.5mm jack ports. Perhaps a more permanent solution would be a drop of superglue under those jacks and usb port if you ever have a problem with it again - though glue might complicate things if you ever need to replace those parts.

    The thing about the ergodox design is that there's several points of possible failure that needs to be looked at if the keyboard ever 'spaz out'. Could be anything from the I/O expander, teensy, the 3.5 mm jacks, the trrs cable, the usb jack/cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Wed, 21 August 2013, 23:01:15
    Is it  possible to desolder the mini usb on the teensy and use ribbon cable to attach it to the right hand pcb?

    How about joining the  two halves with a soldered at both ends ribbon cables. Asking cause my trrs connectors might take some time coming.

    I was wondering the same thing since I will be permanently attaching the halves together.

    Also, Is the I/O expander necessary to avoid having a dozen wire cable bridging the halves. If not, can  the rows just be bridged straight across the split?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 22 August 2013, 01:03:29
    I just meant that the cathodes are oriented towards the left on one hand's PCB vs. oriented towards the right on the other hand's PCB. Some people have caused a problem when they soldered the diodes on both hands all pointed in the same direction, which caused one hand to not work.

    That is also the case when you use switches with integrated diodes as I did ... they all point to the same direction, but the firmware (if you compile it yourself) has a setting to make both sides of the keyboard work.

    See below file, lines 33-50
    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/options.h
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 22 August 2013, 02:32:44
    Are media keys working yet?
     :D

    Only in rev-1 (and only 3 of them, implemented by judascleric - see the notes near the top of the readme (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware)).  And school is starting soon, so media keys in rev-2 will likely be quite some time...  But you can watch the repo if you want :)

    Is it  possible to desolder the mini usb on the teensy and use ribbon cable to attach it to the right hand pcb?

    How about joining the  two halves with a soldered at both ends ribbon cables. Asking cause my trrs connectors might take some time coming.

    I was wondering the same thing since I will be permanently attaching the halves together.

    Also, Is the I/O expander necessary to avoid having a dozen wire cable bridging the halves. If not, can  the rows just be bridged straight across the split?


    I can't think of any reason why desoldering the Mini USB on the Teensy and using a little ribbon cable would't work.  Electrically, it seems like it'd be about the same as what we're already doing.  I considered doing that for the last one I built, but ended up not needing to.

    Joining the two halves with a permanent (soldered in) 4-conductor cable should work just as well also.

    About the I/O expander - if you bridged the rows straight from board to board, and did away with I2C (which would free up 2 pins), I'm pretty sure you would have *exactly* enough free pins on the Teensy to deal with the left hand columns, which you would have to bring over in a 7 conductor cable of some sort.  That sort of change would also necessitate changes in the scanning function.  Or, alternately, at that point it probably wouldn't be too difficult to use hasu's firmware - like everyone I know of who's done away with I2C (on their ErgoDox inspired boards) has, lol :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 22 August 2013, 05:17:48

    I can't think of any reason why desoldering the Mini USB on the Teensy and using a little ribbon cable would't work.  Electrically, it seems like it'd be about the same as what we're already doing.  I considered doing that for the last one I built, but ended up not needing to.

    Joining the two halves with a permanent (soldered in) 4-conductor cable should work just as well also.

    About the I/O expander - if you bridged the rows straight from board to board, and did away with I2C (which would free up 2 pins), I'm pretty sure you would have *exactly* enough free pins on the Teensy to deal with the left hand columns, which you would have to bring over in a 7 conductor cable of some sort.  That sort of change would also necessitate changes in the scanning function.  Or, alternately, at that point it probably wouldn't be too difficult to use hasu's firmware - like everyone I know of who's done away with I2C (on their ErgoDox inspired boards) has, lol :)


    icO7, we continue to be indebted to you for your persistence in fielding, what I'm sure to you are, our elementary questions. Thanks.

    It sounds like removing the I/O expander would clean up some unnecessary components but would require additional programming. It sounds like something above my pay grade.
    Would you agree, given my lack of programming understanding, that I would be better to just stick with a proven thing?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Thu, 22 August 2013, 08:18:34
    It sounds like removing the I/O expander would clean up some unnecessary components but would require additional programming. It sounds like something above my pay grade.
    Would you agree, given my lack of programming understanding, that I would be better to just stick with a proven thing?
    Learning to program by starting with firmware would be a steep climb. You clearly have the patience and attention to detail required, but would have to pay some dues before you would see success. You might be better served by asking for some help if changes are required, or wiring your switch matrix like the hasu firmware expects so as to avoid changes other than key maps.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Thu, 22 August 2013, 09:01:47
    I found some 62/38 solder last night and got to work. I put in about an hour and a half of work and got both sides of SMD's done, the resistors on the right and the IO expander on the left. My soldering job looks pretty gnarly on the first hand of SMD's (I blame not using a finer tip on the iron), but I think I got solid connections on everything! I miss doing this stuff.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 22 August 2013, 10:19:06
    Thanks ic07.

    Got the edox done. Now to test.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 22 August 2013, 12:38:21
    Are media keys working yet?
     :D

    Only in rev-1 (and only 3 of them, implemented by judascleric - see the notes near the top of the readme (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware)).  And school is starting soon, so media keys in rev-2 will likely be quite some time...  But you can watch the repo if you want :)

    Is it  possible to desolder the mini usb on the teensy and use ribbon cable to attach it to the right hand pcb?

    How about joining the  two halves with a soldered at both ends ribbon cables. Asking cause my trrs connectors might take some time coming.

    I was wondering the same thing since I will be permanently attaching the halves together.

    Also, Is the I/O expander necessary to avoid having a dozen wire cable bridging the halves. If not, can  the rows just be bridged straight across the split?


    I can't think of any reason why desoldering the Mini USB on the Teensy and using a little ribbon cable would't work.  Electrically, it seems like it'd be about the same as what we're already doing.  I considered doing that for the last one I built, but ended up not needing to.

    Joining the two halves with a permanent (soldered in) 4-conductor cable should work just as well also.

    About the I/O expander - if you bridged the rows straight from board to board, and did away with I2C (which would free up 2 pins), I'm pretty sure you would have *exactly* enough free pins on the Teensy to deal with the left hand columns, which you would have to bring over in a 7 conductor cable of some sort.  That sort of change would also necessitate changes in the scanning function.  Or, alternately, at that point it probably wouldn't be too difficult to use hasu's firmware - like everyone I know of who's done away with I2C (on their ErgoDox inspired boards) has, lol :)

    GHAaaaaaaaa, very greatful that the media keys are being worked on..  OMG why couldn't it be the volumn keys.. hurrrrrrr..... ;D

    Aight.. cool.. i got mad patience..

    Thanks for all the hard work. :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:31:40
    icO7, we continue to be indebted to you for your persistence in fielding, what I'm sure to you are, our elementary questions. Thanks.

    It sounds like removing the I/O expander would clean up some unnecessary components but would require additional programming. It sounds like something above my pay grade.
    Would you agree, given my lack of programming understanding, that I would be better to just stick with a proven thing?

    Haha, you give me far too much credit.  But np :)

    I agree with OldDataHands - I'm sure you could do it, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the time it'd take you, if you haven't messed with code before.  Is there some reason you would especially want to do away with the I/O expander?  Or just, it would feel cleaner not to have things in there that aren't really necessary for your setup?

    Just in case you'd like to see, here (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/controller/teensy-2-0.c)'s the file where most of the changes would be, if you rewired to eliminate the MCP23018 and kept to my firmware.  Alternately, if you could rewire things to be compatible with a Phantom, it should be possible to use Hasu's (https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/tree/master/keyboard/phantom) without much modification.


    GHAaaaaaaaa, very greatful that the media keys are being worked on..  OMG why couldn't it be the volumn keys.. hurrrrrrr..... ;D

    Aight.. cool.. i got mad patience..

    Thanks for all the hard work. :D

    Lol :) .  For volume keys, have you tried the standard keycode ones in the default QWERTY layout (rev-1 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/qwerty-kinesis-mod.c#L61) or rev-2 (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/templates/kinesis-mod.c.h#L119), or in the "media keys" sub-menu of the massdrop configurator (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/))?  They should work on Macs, dunno about Windows and Linux machines.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:48:14
    they dont work on PC, i have been wanting damn volume controls and pause/play on my ergodox for some time now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:51:02
    they dont work on PC, i have been wanting damn volume controls and pause/play on my ergodox for some time now.

    Oh, thanks, I didn't know.  Sorry about that :/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 22 August 2013, 22:56:23
    OldDataHands & ic07-  Thanks for the recommendations. Actually I'm not sure I could ever figure it out. I agree that I'm better sticking to what I know. I'm already stretched too thin, just too many things I want to learn and do. I just didn't want a lot of unnecessary parts if they could easily be avoided. Actually, I think pride got the best of me. I've been having nightmares about all of you programers huddled over one of my hack-jobs, giggling and whispering,  "Look, kurplop thinks that he's one of us".
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 22 August 2013, 23:27:23
    Hahaha, you're going to make me sad kurplop!  The work of yours that I've seen has all been beautiful.  And I have a good bit of respect for people who make things that actually exist :)

    If it's any consolation, it goes both ways... my Dad had to explain to me the other day why you used 4 different grits of sandpaper on your aluminum case, and wet sanded.  I apparently don't know very much about sanding, lol.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 22 August 2013, 23:32:42
    Thanks. My sleep won't be haunted tonight.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 22 August 2013, 23:34:30
    Loving the mutual respect.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thifi on Fri, 23 August 2013, 15:25:13
    Hey folks ! First time poster here :)

    Just wanted to confirm if it is is possible to open the switches on the massdrop case without desoldering ?
    This feature will be very useful for future mods I'll probably be doing (ergo-clears, lubing, etc).

    Also, I'd like to thank all of the contributors for this awesome project.
    Will definitely help with my RSI issues :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Fri, 23 August 2013, 15:26:16
    So pissed that the Dolch ErgoDox kit didn't happen.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 23 August 2013, 15:49:08
    Hey folks ! First time poster here :)

    Just wanted to confirm if it is is possible to open the switches on the massdrop case without desoldering ?
    This feature will be very useful for future mods I'll probably be doing (ergo-clears, lubing, etc).

    Also, I'd like to thank all of the contributors for this awesome project.
    Will definitely help with my RSI issues :D

    Yes, you can, atleast on the acrylic case.

    Got mine done today, made a couple of changes, mainly swapped the LED and resistor position and thus had to use SMD resistance.

    This is way NICER than I thought.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Fri, 23 August 2013, 21:30:32
    Hey folks ! First time poster here :)

    Just wanted to confirm if it is is possible to open the switches on the massdrop case without desoldering ?
    This feature will be very useful for future mods I'll probably be doing (ergo-clears, lubing, etc).

    Yup, you can remove the tops, except for the 3 keys that have the LEDs, which is no big deal :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sat, 24 August 2013, 00:18:18
    Hey folks ! First time poster here :)

    Just wanted to confirm if it is is possible to open the switches on the massdrop case without desoldering ?
    This feature will be very useful for future mods I'll probably be doing (ergo-clears, lubing, etc).

    Yup, you can remove the tops, except for the 3 keys that have the LEDs, which is no big deal :-)

    Can be done if you modify the switch tops before you solder the leds in.

    WFD's video on modifying the switch tops.


    For those without a dremel tool, pretty much any sharp knife will do. I did mine with a xacto knife.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thifi on Sat, 24 August 2013, 03:48:19
    Hey folks ! First time poster here :)

    Just wanted to confirm if it is is possible to open the switches on the massdrop case without desoldering ?
    This feature will be very useful for future mods I'll probably be doing (ergo-clears, lubing, etc).

    Yup, you can remove the tops, except for the 3 keys that have the LEDs, which is no big deal :-)

    Can be done if you modify the switch tops before you solder the leds in.

    WFD's video on modifying the switch tops.


    For those without a dremel tool, pretty much any sharp knife will do. I did mine with a xacto knife.

    Glad to hear that !

    I'll definitely try out the the xacto knife method.
    Can't wait for my ergodox to arrive :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:49:57
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/25/5e8eme6e.jpg)

    Got mine working this morning =) only key that didn't function was the default space key. Took a look at the smd on the back and realized I left off soldering on one side. Soldered it down and bam! Can't wait to actually sit down and use it later - busy weekend!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 24 August 2013, 23:02:56
    I'll definitely try out the the xacto knife method.
    Be careful when cutting plastic! If you have a small serrated blade or a file, I suggest that you use that instead.

    I once cut plastic with a hobby knife, slipped and cut open a two-inch long gash in my left hand. I was lucky and only just missed the nerves and major blood vessels. Before this, I used to think that "a project that does not draw blood is not a real project", but now I have learned to be more careful.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 24 August 2013, 23:17:35
    I was wondering the same thing since I will be permanently attaching the halves together.
    If the only reason would to be able to reach the Reset button on the Teensy, so that you can upgrade the firmware... then you could instead just add your own Reset button. Connect the button to close a circuit between the RST and GND pins on the Teensy. That is all the existing button does, according to the schematic (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/schematic.html).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 25 August 2013, 02:01:51
    Why not just drill a tiny whole in the top plate so you can use a paper clip to hit the firmware button?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 25 August 2013, 05:24:26
    After the initial configuration, I don't think it's necessary to ever push the reset button again if you assign it to a key stroke. Am I mistaken?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 25 August 2013, 08:21:59
    After the initial configuration, I don't think it's necessary to ever push the reset button again if you assign it to a key stroke. Am I mistaken?

    That is correct
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 25 August 2013, 09:41:00
    After the initial configuration, I don't think it's necessary to ever push the reset button again if you assign it to a key stroke. Am I mistaken?



    Unless you accidentally load a layout that doesn't have a bootloader key assigned to it (not fun)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sun, 25 August 2013, 13:04:08
    I'm typing on mine right now! It's strange at first, but I'm sure I'll get used to it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 25 August 2013, 14:37:18
    Give it time.  Some took to it right away but I felt awkward for weeks using it. Now I'm typing faster and more comfortably than I ever did on a conventional board.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Sun, 25 August 2013, 20:54:47
    My most common typos are with c's, b's, and n's. I'm starting to get a feel for the difference, though. Your fingers are so used to stretching a certain way. The other one that's hard to get used to is, well, using my left thumb and everything that goes with it, lol.

    MX clears feel amazing. I'm rarely bottoming out and they're super quiet because of it. There's a bit of that plastic-y scratch feeling, similar to browns when you first get them. I'm sure they'll break in in no time. If they don't, a little bit of mkawa's lube should do the trick!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Mon, 26 August 2013, 10:31:51
    After the initial configuration, I don't think it's necessary to ever push the reset button again if you assign it to a key stroke. Am I mistaken?



    Unless you accidentally load a layout that doesn't have a bootloader key assigned to it (not fun)

    +1

    What I did is drill a little hole in the top plate, so I can easily push the button with a paperclip.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 26 August 2013, 10:38:41
    After the initial configuration, I don't think it's necessary to ever push the reset button again if you assign it to a key stroke. Am I mistaken?



    Unless you accidentally load a layout that doesn't have a bootloader key assigned to it (not fun)

    +1

    What I did is drill a little hole in the top plate, so I can easily push the button with a paperclip.

    The hole is present for those using litster's case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 26 August 2013, 10:45:46
    Not on the massdrop top plates. From their site, it looks like some of their prototypes had a hole there, but it's not on any of the production cases I've seen.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 26 August 2013, 10:54:00
    Not on the massdrop top plates. From their site, it looks like some of their prototypes had a hole there, but it's not on any of the production cases I've seen.

    Must be using a different design as opposed to the one on ergodox.org by litster
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 26 August 2013, 14:56:09
    Though I'd share my ErgoDox build:

    Mostly done, a couple of things left here and there

    Covers on:
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235820.JPG)
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235905.JPG)

    Covers off:
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000008.JPG)
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000142.JPG)

    I decided to swap the position of the resistors and the LEDs since, the keys were not going to be programmed Caps/Num/Scroll Lock, and thus having LED in that position didn't make sense. Since there wasn't enough space for the resistors in place of LED (Which would have gone through the switch), I decided to just use some SMD resistors.
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000449.JPG)
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000831.JPG)

    Side profile, I made these feet to adjust the vertical angle of the ErgoDox to make it even more comfortable. Got various sized discs and different sized hex bolts and then balanced it out according to my comfort level. You can see that on each hand, I am missing one bumpon on one feet, the ebay dealer only sent two sets of 4 instead of 3  :mad::
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000632.JPG)
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000657.JPG)
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000907.JPG)

    On the todo list (In order of priority):
    - Add the missing bumper to one feet on each side (Priority, should be done in next couple of days as soon as Ebay dealer ships it)
    - Braided USB cable, awaiting order of USB and mini-USB ends (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Swap out the 2x keys for taller SA profile keycaps, (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Change the switch top covers to clear switch top covers (Still waiting for them to be shipped)
    - Add a chainmaille armor style sleeving to both the cables (Planning phase)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Soarer on Mon, 26 August 2013, 15:00:59
    About the I/O expander - if you bridged the rows straight from board to board, and did away with I2C (which would free up 2 pins), I'm pretty sure you would have *exactly* enough free pins on the Teensy to deal with the left hand columns, which you would have to bring over in a 7 conductor cable of some sort.  That sort of change would also necessitate changes in the scanning function.  Or, alternately, at that point it probably wouldn't be too difficult to use hasu's firmware - like everyone I know of who's done away with I2C (on their ErgoDox inspired boards) has, lol :)

    Yeah, as long as the diodes are oriented correctly (as in, reversed on one hand) what you'd have then is a straightforward 6 x 14 matrix.

    You could use the I2C pins on the Teensy, so only 5 more needed - which still leaves the one in the middle and the one that's used by the onboard LED.

    Bridging the two halves would need a 13 or 14 wire cable: 6 rows, 7 columns, and ground (optional, maybe). Finding one that isn't bulky might be tricky... I've got some nice 15-way cable that I've had stashed for 20 odd years waiting to be useful!

    The issue is possibly having to cut the acrylic to make a path for the wires - I haven't checked yet how much room there is between PCB and plate - only just got my kit :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Mon, 26 August 2013, 15:11:18
    Though I'd share my ErgoDox build:

    Mostly done, a couple of things left here and there

    Covers on:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235820.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235905.JPG)


    Covers off:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000008.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000142.JPG)


    I decided to swap the position of the resistors and the LEDs since, the keys were not going to be programmed Caps/Num/Scroll Lock, and thus having LED in that position didn't make sense. Since there wasn't enough space for the resistors in place of LED (Which would have gone through the switch), I decided to just use some SMD resistors.
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000449.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000831.JPG)


    Side profile, I made these feet to adjust the vertical angle of the ErgoDox to make it even more comfortable. Got various sized discs and different sized hex bolts and then balanced it out according to my comfort level. You can see that on each hand, I am missing one bumpon on one feet, the ebay dealer only sent two sets of 4 instead of 3  :mad::
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000632.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000657.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000907.JPG)


    On the todo list (In order of priority):
    - Add the missing bumper to one feet on each side (Priority, should be done in next couple of days as soon as Ebay dealer ships it)
    - Braided USB cable, awaiting order of USB and mini-USB ends (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Swap out the 2x keys for taller SA profile keycaps, (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Change the switch top covers to clear switch top covers (Still waiting for them to be shipped)
    - Add a chainmaille armor style sleeving to both the cables (Planning phase)

    I'd like to see your config - I'm contemplating switching num6 to the left hand instead of using the inside row as esc/l2 buttons. I'm still experimenting, for sure!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 26 August 2013, 15:18:05
    I'm still experimenting, for sure!

    This. However I can see myself getting faster at this than I ever could on staggered and also this is way more comfortable. Legends in the picture I posted don't mean anything at the moment, as I am still experimenting. One thing I have decided is not to use more than two-three layers. It gets impractical.

    However, since I do game a variety of games, I like how I could set different layer configs for different games.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Lawngahnome on Mon, 26 August 2013, 20:15:34
    Mod edit: NUKED
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gropingmantis on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:10:32
    Mine arrived and I've assembled it all, flashed the stock .eep and .hex.

    But when I plug it in i get "asdfggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg"
    Unplugging the left side and the right works fine. The soldering seems ok.

    The only thing I can see is the jumper pads on the other side from the controller...do these need to be connected?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:15:04
    Show Image
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/25/5e8eme6e.jpg)


    In that pic the caps look SUPER rough.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Tue, 27 August 2013, 13:55:13
    Show Image
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/25/5e8eme6e.jpg)


    In that pic the caps look SUPER rough.

    Shrug! They're dsa pbt from gb3 and they feel great =)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 27 August 2013, 14:06:10
    Mine arrived and I've assembled it all, flashed the stock .eep and .hex.

    But when I plug it in i get "asdfggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg"
    Unplugging the left side and the right works fine. The soldering seems ok.

    The only thing I can see is the jumper pads on the other side from the controller...do these need to be connected?

    Jumpers have to be soldered on both sides, the left and the right, to see which, face the PCB up and see the jumpers enclosed in white printing.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gropingmantis on Tue, 27 August 2013, 14:31:01
    Mine arrived and I've assembled it all, flashed the stock .eep and .hex.

    But when I plug it in i get "asdfggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg"
    Unplugging the left side and the right works fine. The soldering seems ok.

    The only thing I can see is the jumper pads on the other side from the controller...do these need to be connected?

    Jumpers have to be soldered on both sides, the left and the right, to see which, face the PCB up and see the jumpers enclosed in white printing.

    Ah no not the ones by the trrs ports. There are two sets of pads. One next to the capacitor and the other on the underside by the "0" of "Teensy 2.0". The massdrop instructions dont mention them but the one by the capacitor is soldered in the pictures.

    Also plugging it in seems to reset my xorg keyboard settings.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Soarer on Tue, 27 August 2013, 15:11:21
    You mean Step 4.1 ?

    I think both pairs of pads need to be bridged on the left hand PCB to connect up the capacitor, one on top and one on the bottom of the PCB. Note - I haven't built mine yet, hopefully someone who has will confirm!

    That capacitor is unlikely to cause the problem though - maybe you have a short between two pins on the expander chip, since it seems like a whole row is constantly pressed...?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gropingmantis on Tue, 27 August 2013, 15:36:50
    Thats the one.

    I've had it under the magnifier and cant see any shorts. I will triple check though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 27 August 2013, 15:39:37
    Show Image
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/08/25/5e8eme6e.jpg)


    In that pic the caps look SUPER rough.

    Shrug! They're dsa pbt from gb3 and they feel great =)
    Oh that's fine!

    I wasn't saying that they were bad, as I've never used them, but that's a nice high detail photo. I can see every little bump on the caps.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Tue, 27 August 2013, 15:47:13
    Gogo iPhone 5 with HDR enabled =)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 27 August 2013, 18:11:06
    You only need to short them on the left hand side and only on the top.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Tue, 27 August 2013, 18:21:58
    Got mine assembled yesterday; took a day off from work to do it, and good thing too, cause it took me ALL day! But worked on first try, so that's nice :D

    Now to figure out what layout to use... I'm really debating whether to move to an entirely new layout, like to Colemak or something.

    Edit: meant colemak, not colemark :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gropingmantis on Tue, 27 August 2013, 19:32:23
    You only need to short them on the left hand side and only on the top.

    Thanks. I did that. Checked all my joints and they seem ok. Certainly no shorts. Could it be to do with the firmware? I'm using the teensy-loader-cli (arch linux) and i couldnt find any difference between flashing the .eep or the .hex so I did both in that order.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gropingmantis on Tue, 27 August 2013, 19:51:37
    well i mashed some keys in frustration and now it works...

    oh well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 27 August 2013, 22:10:18
    You only need to short them on the left hand side and only on the top.

    This. Both my ErgoDoxes only have the top pad soldered and work perfectly.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Soarer on Wed, 28 August 2013, 04:52:52
    You only need to short them on the left hand side and only on the top.

    This. Both my ErgoDoxes only have the top pad soldered and work perfectly.

    Yeah, just tested, and the pad underneath is already shorted.

    So, for anyone wanting to use the PB4 pin on the Teensy for anything, make sure to cut the track between that pad on the right hand PCB, or it will have +5v on it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Wed, 28 August 2013, 06:01:13
    Just setting B4 to low output would probably be a bad idea as well. It may have been a better decision to leave both jumper pads unconnected. But this way everything have a chance of working without jumpering any of them. The pad connecting the capacitor to GND does of course need to be shorted for the capacitor to work at all.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vun on Wed, 28 August 2013, 13:32:00
    I got mine today and just finished building it, although I can't find how to get æ ø å in the eDox layout configurator, anyone here able to help?
    Edit:
    Turns out that just loading the default firmware does set it to Norwegian layout.
    Although one of the LEDs is constantly on, is this normal?

    Also, will I need access to the button on the teensy every time I want to change layout?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 28 August 2013, 14:28:56
    I got mine today and just finished building it, although I can't find how to get æ ø å in the eDox layout configurator, anyone here able to help?
    Edit:
    Turns out that just loading the default firmware does set it to Norwegian layout.
    Although one of the LEDs is constantly on, is this normal?

    Also, will I need access to the button on the teensy every time I want to change layout?

    You cna set a button to be mapped as they key for the teensy button.

    I think it might be the numlock/scroll lock which is always on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 28 August 2013, 16:42:49
    So, I started noticing this yesterday, but the F key on my Ergodox occasionally will begin to repeat itself. Sometimes it's just once or twice, other times it's like it's been stuck down and just repeating.

    Now, this is the same key that I managed to pull off the switch top + stem (Curse you, SP DSA PBT's), which I just put back together, which it worked fine. This issue didn't happen the day of me pulling the top off, which leads me to believe that it's either the diode or the IO expander.

    What say you guys? Should I just reflow the IO expander and diode to the F key and see if it resolves the occasional repeat?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 28 August 2013, 16:47:13
    So, I started noticing this yesterday, but the F key on my Ergodox occasionally will begin to repeat itself. Sometimes it's just once or twice, other times it's like it's been stuck down and just repeating.

    Now, this is the same key that I managed to pull off the switch top + stem (Curse you, SP DSA PBT's), which I just put back together, which it worked fine. This issue didn't happen the day of me pulling the top off, which leads me to believe that it's either the diode or the IO expander.

    What say you guys? Should I just reflow the IO expander and diode to the F key and see if it resolves the occasional repeat?

    If you have another switch spare, I'd say swap the switch out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Wed, 28 August 2013, 17:00:23
    So, I started noticing this yesterday, but the F key on my Ergodox occasionally will begin to repeat itself. Sometimes it's just once or twice, other times it's like it's been stuck down and just repeating.

    Now, this is the same key that I managed to pull off the switch top + stem (Curse you, SP DSA PBT's), which I just put back together, which it worked fine. This issue didn't happen the day of me pulling the top off, which leads me to believe that it's either the diode or the IO expander.

    What say you guys? Should I just reflow the IO expander and diode to the F key and see if it resolves the occasional repeat?

    If you have another switch spare, I'd say swap the switch out.

    I got the one extra, I guess that'd be an easy way to do it. I don't understand how pulling the stem out would really mess with anything aside from the side plastic snaps that hold it together.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: planet36 on Wed, 28 August 2013, 23:53:59
    Though I'd share my ErgoDox build:

    Mostly done, a couple of things left here and there

    Covers on:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235820.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235905.JPG)


    Covers off:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000008.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000142.JPG)


    I decided to swap the position of the resistors and the LEDs since, the keys were not going to be programmed Caps/Num/Scroll Lock, and thus having LED in that position didn't make sense. Since there wasn't enough space for the resistors in place of LED (Which would have gone through the switch), I decided to just use some SMD resistors.
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000449.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000831.JPG)


    Side profile, I made these feet to adjust the vertical angle of the ErgoDox to make it even more comfortable. Got various sized discs and different sized hex bolts and then balanced it out according to my comfort level. You can see that on each hand, I am missing one bumpon on one feet, the ebay dealer only sent two sets of 4 instead of 3  :mad::
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000632.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000657.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000907.JPG)


    On the todo list (In order of priority):
    - Add the missing bumper to one feet on each side (Priority, should be done in next couple of days as soon as Ebay dealer ships it)
    - Braided USB cable, awaiting order of USB and mini-USB ends (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Swap out the 2x keys for taller SA profile keycaps, (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Change the switch top covers to clear switch top covers (Still waiting for them to be shipped)
    - Add a chainmaille armor style sleeving to both the cables (Planning phase)


    Can you elaborate on your tenting solution?  Is it custom?  How tall are the legs/supports?  Are they attached through fasteners or adhesives?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 29 August 2013, 00:19:04
    Though I'd share my ErgoDox build:

    Mostly done, a couple of things left here and there

    Covers on:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235820.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130826_235905.JPG)


    Covers off:
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000008.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000142.JPG)


    I decided to swap the position of the resistors and the LEDs since, the keys were not going to be programmed Caps/Num/Scroll Lock, and thus having LED in that position didn't make sense. Since there wasn't enough space for the resistors in place of LED (Which would have gone through the switch), I decided to just use some SMD resistors.
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000449.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000831.JPG)


    Side profile, I made these feet to adjust the vertical angle of the ErgoDox to make it even more comfortable. Got various sized discs and different sized hex bolts and then balanced it out according to my comfort level. You can see that on each hand, I am missing one bumpon on one feet, the ebay dealer only sent two sets of 4 instead of 3  :mad::
    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000632.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000657.JPG)

    Show Image
    (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7419977/ErgoDOx/20130827_000907.JPG)


    On the todo list (In order of priority):
    - Add the missing bumper to one feet on each side (Priority, should be done in next couple of days as soon as Ebay dealer ships it)
    - Braided USB cable, awaiting order of USB and mini-USB ends (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Swap out the 2x keys for taller SA profile keycaps, (Shipped, yet to receive)
    - Change the switch top covers to clear switch top covers (Still waiting for them to be shipped)
    - Add a chainmaille armor style sleeving to both the cables (Planning phase)


    Can you elaborate on your tenting solution?  Is it custom?  How tall are the legs/supports?  Are they attached through fasteners or adhesives?

    There are attached via bolts and nuts. Each leg consists of one 10mm 10mm diameter column which is counterbored to allow the but to fit in, and leave enough room on top to allow me to stick rubber bumpons.

    To get the height right I got several discs ranging from 30mm in diameter to 10mm in 5mm decrements cut at the laser when I got my ergodox case initially cut. I then experimented with variable heights. The ergodox is tilted so that the topmost inner corner is at maximum height, thus angled both in x and y axis.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Rolz73 on Thu, 29 August 2013, 19:20:00
    After I got my 2nd ErgoDox a couple weeks ago, it allowed me to work on the LED mod that I have been thinking about.

    Here are the photos:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/114587566591376388042/albums/5917693511228777761

    If anyone is wondering about my firmware modifications, they can be found here:
    https://github.com/Rolzad73/ergodox-firmware
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tarzan on Fri, 30 August 2013, 12:20:31
    Just because I like heavy cases (and cannot prevaricate...), I asked FedTech for quotes on making the five-layer ErgoDox cases out of stainless steel instead of acrylic.  The price for single units is steep ($492.50), but the price per unit at 15 cases would be $125.91.  Cases with integrated wrist rests are a little more expensive, but only by $15-20. 

    Aluminum cases were quoted at almost exactly the same prices, I'm guessing at these small sizes it's mostly setup and cutting costs, not as much in materials.

    I'm probably not going to pursue the metal case option at this time, but in case anyone is interested in pricing data, I figured I'd share.

    http://www.fedtech.com/ (http://www.fedtech.com/)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sat, 31 August 2013, 01:29:08
    If they could do it out of anodized aluminum, then a GB would definitely be something I'd be interested in.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Sat, 31 August 2013, 02:08:46
    Hi all
    i want ask in here? for users ergodox
    How you use thumb cluster on key 1x1 Whether you ever accidentally pressed another button?
    I saw it quite difficult afraid if preesed another button

    Thk
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sat, 31 August 2013, 06:20:46
    I can only comment from my own experience. Because I type with my palms low, I find it difficult to hit three of the 1x thumb keys without moving my hand from home position; in fact I think I generally use my index finger for them.  It does help considerably using taller keycaps on those switches, but the placement is still less than ideal.

    I would recommend not assigning heavily used commands to those keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Sat, 31 August 2013, 07:40:25
    If they could do it out of anodized aluminum, then a GB would definitely be something I'd be interested in.

    Interestingly, Massdrop has stated in the current GB discussion that they will be doing a separate GB for the anodized aluminum top plate that they are currently offering with the ErgoDox. So that'd be sweet! In the current GB, it's listed at $25; I hope it'll be that cheap in a separate GB too.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Soarer on Sat, 31 August 2013, 07:49:10
    Hah! I asked them about that, and was told:

    Quote
    We've got our hands really full with a lot of products right now, so launching this is kind of a no-brainer but also taking a back seat to some other products/vendors/communities... We can't only work for the Keyboard people :P

    I guess they decided they could juggle one more ball, just for us Keyboard people! ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:07:25
    classic case owners wanting to tent their ergodox, pls see.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47887.msg1023442#new
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:20:25
    I can only comment from my own experience. Because I type with my palms low, I find it difficult to hit three of the 1x thumb keys without moving my hand from home position; in fact I think I generally use my index finger for them.  It does help considerably using taller keycaps on those switches, but the placement is still less than ideal.

    I would recommend not assigning heavily used commands to those keys.

    Agreed, getting SA caps for mine, let's see how it goes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Sat, 31 August 2013, 18:53:48
    It's interesting that the ErgoDox is unable to wake a computer from sleep. Well, at least it doesn't work on my windows machine; anyone else?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 31 August 2013, 19:24:04
    It's interesting that the ErgoDox is unable to wake a computer from sleep. Well, at least it doesn't work on my windows machine; anyone else?

    That's another one of those USB features I haven't gotten too yet.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Sat, 31 August 2013, 22:25:23
    [edit: old/outdated files - please see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1035938#msg1035938 for updated version]
    I wanted a visual aid for helping to learn the 4 layers of my first ErgoDox layout.
    I wanted to make it something that many could benefit from.
    The script and template I created apply to the firmware as downloaded from MassDrop's Configurator.

    The SVG output it creates looks like this:
    [attach=1]

    and the script and associated minor changes are here:
    [attachurl=2]
    It should be applied to the source as downloaded from MassDrop's Configurator with
    the patch command (after decompressing) (or equivalent) likely ignoring two names in the path.
    i.e. From the source directory you would run:> patch --strip=2 -i ergodox_visaid.patch
    and then you would run:> make visaid
    which would created visaid.svg which you could then view, manipulate, print, etc. with Inkscape.

    The script relies upon the m4 macro processor and gcc being available in PATH, and takes its data
    from the default--layout.c file used in the MassDrop download.  It's got characters assigned to the
    keys appropriate for a US keyboard.  It is simple to update the key_names.h file if your region differs.

    It works for my first ErgoDox layout (DataHand Dvorak inspired, but not polished yet), but has not
    seen any testing outside of my linux system. YMMV.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Sat, 31 August 2013, 23:19:24
    No worries ic07! I guess it makes sense that that would be a USB feature, hadn't thought of it being firmware related.

    OldDataHands: that is brilliant! I was thinking today how something like that would be really handy; I'm looking forward to taking it for a spin once I've got my configuration nailed down.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Tue, 03 September 2013, 23:35:04
    Thought I'd sure my work-in-progress Colemak layout with a macro layer using modified rev-2 firmware; layout diagram is here: https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/doc/colemak.svg (https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/doc/colemak.svg)

    It uses a toggled layer that is full of one click macros, for making quick work of the most common shortcuts I use in windows. To dig right into the customizations I made to ic07's firmware, you can view the macros I hard-coded here:
    https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/keys.c.h (https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/common/keys.c.h)
    And the layout file is here:
    https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/colemak--macros-mod.c (https://github.com/fisofo/ergodox-firmware/blob/partial-rewrite/firmware/keyboard/ergodox/layout/colemak--macros-mod.c)

    I'm hoping I can eventually add nkro and media keys using the work that dyuri has done, but it might be awhile: https://github.com/dyuri/ergodox-firmware/ (https://github.com/dyuri/ergodox-firmware/)

    Much thanks ic07 for the base firmware and assistance, and the idea for this from frew's thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45211.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45211.0)

    Disclaimer: I'm new to Git and to C. The code I posted works, but if you have suggestions on how to make it better/cleaner, I'm all ears! I'll be continuing to modify this as I learn Colemak and use the ErgoDox.

    Edit: Also, I'm using DCS key caps, and found it really comfortable to take a row 3 key and put it in rotated 180 degrees in the 1x1 spot on the bottom row, closest to the thumb cluster on both hands. For my hands, this is effectively another thumb key that is very easy to reach, unlike the 1x1 keys that are actually IN the thumb cluster.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 04 September 2013, 02:47:26
    Just skimmed through the above post, once I get home will test the above.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 04 September 2013, 05:38:09
    Is there a way to mod the switch tops to allow the springs and stems to be changed once assembled?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 04 September 2013, 05:47:19
    Is there a way to mod the switch tops to allow the springs and stems to be changed once assembled?

    If you use the litster style acrylic case, you can remove the switch tops, there are notches on the sides so that you can open the switch cover top.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 04 September 2013, 05:48:42
    I went for the fullsize case...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 04 September 2013, 05:51:39
    If it is th acrylic one, then yes, you will be able to remove the switch tops.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: longweight on Wed, 04 September 2013, 05:55:54
    Oh awesome, thanks :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 04 September 2013, 09:01:48
    Now to figure out what layout to use... I'm really debating whether to move to an entirely new layout, like to Colemak or something.
    i took the opportunity of switching from a stupid plank of buttons to the cheapo kinesis ergo i scored on ebay shortly before hearing about the dox to also move to colemak from qwerty. if you're convinced by the idea of a better logical layout then it's a good time to do it - take the typing productivity hit all at once, rather than spreading it around. it made me sad that people use qwerty after a couple of minutes in a colemak typing tutorial, even when you suck at it you can still feel just how much better it is. that said, it's hard to recommend switching just because everything else is still qwerty. when you have to fiddle at someone else's computer it sucks, when someone in the office comes over to your machine to help you out with something, they have to dictate to you as there's no chance that they'd be able to do owt useful on your keyboard, etc. _that_ said, i still ain't switching back.

    i'm planning a set of custom wasd caps for my dox which'll have prominent colemak legends but smaller qwerty stuff below so i can layer switch the keyboard into stupid mode to try and alleviate some of the keyboard sharing issues, or to remind me where qwerty keys lay on the odd occasion that i play a game.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bitsmith on Wed, 04 September 2013, 12:34:48
    No, man. Just keep a little cheapo USB keyboard on your desk behind your monitor. Whip it out when you have to share. :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 04 September 2013, 14:35:43
    heh, yeah i do that, but it's the skankiest, nastiest keyboard in the office. i've never seen one so grimy. fine by me mind, i don't have to touch it ;)

    i've currently got my kinesis at work (till i can build my second dox) and people get interested by it, but the added colemak factor screws em over. being able to switch back to stupid mode will be cool for being able to get more co-workers interested.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 04 September 2013, 18:53:36
    Just sharing an opinion:

    I didn't see the ErgoDox on massdrop until it was too late. Now I see people with aluminum cases, with nice palm rests, custom LEDs, etc.
    But it's harder and harder to search all GH for info about it. If I see a Massdrop offer with all those mods, I'll jump in in a second. Now they have the PCB and blank keys on MassDrop, but they are worthless to me without all the other things. (The metallic case with wood palm rests looks just so damn good).

    Ergonomically speaking, I think that kinesys' high point is the contoured keys. They DO make a difference! I wish I had a Kinesis cut in Half. That would be the ideal keyboard.

    Now, how are guys owning both keyboards think of the Ergo-dox? I saw this review http://www.anandtech.com/show/7245/ergodox-review-an-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-via-massdrop (http://www.anandtech.com/show/7245/ergodox-review-an-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-via-massdrop) and the guy thinks the TECK is even more comfortable! I haven't used an Ergo-dox, but looks more comfortable than the TECK, but not quite as Kinesis (Even that it's the same layout, the different height of the thumb keys and the roundness of the keys does make it a winner in my book).

    Is it that hard to create a new Ergo-Dox and design it contoured? with time, a huge massdrop could be organized, and I'm pretty sure would be the best keyboard ever!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Wed, 04 September 2013, 20:54:42
    For those interested,  cub-uanic just posted over in the massdrop discussion (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox/talk) that the TMK firmware is now working on ErgoDox. Good timing after all of that tweaking I did to Ben's, lol  :rolleyes:

    That said, I let cub know that my ergodox took a huge responsiveness hit when I loaded his, so I'll keep rockin with what I have for now.

    Edit: link to firmware: https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard/tree/cub_layout
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 04 September 2013, 21:07:50
    Just sharing an opinion:

    I didn't see the ErgoDox on massdrop until it was too late. Now I see people with aluminum cases, with nice palm rests, custom LEDs, etc.
    But it's harder and harder to search all GH for info about it. If I see a Massdrop offer with all those mods, I'll jump in in a second.

    Massdrop never offered these mods, people do them themselves.

    Quote
    Ergonomically speaking, I think that kinesys' high point is the contoured keys. They DO make a difference! I wish I had a Kinesis cut in Half. That would be the ideal keyboard.
    Now, how are guys owning both keyboards think of the Ergo-dox?

    I am a long time kinesis user, and I think the "bowls" are too pronounced. They should be subtler.
    Anyway, I have a full-hand ergodox and love it as well.  At work I use a Kinesis Advantage LF and at home
    an Ergodox, both in dvorak layout. I don't really miss the bowl shape, I kinda like the variation.

    Quote
    Is it that hard to create a new Ergo-Dox and design it contoured?

    Extremely hard. PCB's come flat... to make the contour shape you'd need special PCBs and special frames to mount them, or a special case like the maltron.

    Quote
    with time, a huge massdrop could be organized, and I'm pretty sure would be the best keyboard ever!

    I think the best bet for a split contoured keyboard would be if Kinesis themselves make it, you can contact them here on geekhack, they have a subforum and thread where they take suggestions about the next Advantage keyboard !
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Thu, 05 September 2013, 01:26:11
    Just sharing an opinion:

    I didn't see the ErgoDox on massdrop until it was too late. Now I see people with aluminum cases, with nice palm rests, custom LEDs, etc.
    But it's harder and harder to search all GH for info about it. If I see a Massdrop offer with all those mods, I'll jump in in a second.

    Massdrop never offered these mods, people do them themselves.
    I know. what I mean is IF I saw a mass drop where you choose the case material (not acrylic).



    I am a long time kinesis user, and I think the "bowls" are too pronounced. They should be subtler.
    Anyway, I have a full-hand ergodox and love it as well.  At work I use a Kinesis Advantage LF and at home
    an Ergodox, both in dvorak layout. I don't really miss the bowl shape, I kinda like the variation.

    Don't you think the enter - backspace keys are easier accessed in the Kinesis due to the angle they have?
    If you had to type in one keyboard only, without sentimental crap of "I built it", which one would you choose?

    Is it that hard to create a new Ergo-Dox and design it contoured?

    Extremely hard. PCB's come flat... to make the contour shape you'd need special PCBs and special frames to mount them, or a special case like the maltron.

    I think it can be changed by connecting stripes (one for ZXCVB, other for ASDFG, etc) and each one with an angle.

    with time, a huge massdrop could be organized, and I'm pretty sure would be the best keyboard ever!

    I think the best bet for a split contoured keyboard would be if Kinesis themselves make it, you can contact them here on geekhack, they have a subforum and thread where they take suggestions about the next Advantage keyboard !

    You are right...
    But the Ergo Dox looks so tempting!
    Plus, it doesn't have the crapy Function keys that the Kinesis has.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 08 September 2013, 01:11:29
    Guys get a ErgoDox SA profile (Which is great for the Ergodox), for as cheap as around $35 and even more here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48214

    We need atleast 25 people for the ErgoDox kit!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BliTzKiN on Sun, 08 September 2013, 01:27:43
    Yes guys, go get it! That way everybody wins :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Mon, 09 September 2013, 12:28:46
    I think I really need to get myself an Ergodox. I am an Emacs programmer and I use ctrl/alt/shift keys a lot. I think Ergodox can really change the typing experience.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Mon, 09 September 2013, 14:34:30
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Mon, 09 September 2013, 15:36:13
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.

    Vim is good of course. But IMHO, it only changes the typing speed not the experience. Emacs and Vim both make heavy use of mod keys, and that could be the reason why Ergodox would be a great combination to go with Emacs and Vim. The only thing I don't feel comfortable switching to Ergodox is how difficult it is to get used to Ergodox layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 09 September 2013, 21:45:52
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.

    Vim is good of course. But IMHO, it only changes the typing speed not the experience. Emacs and Vim both make heavy use of mod keys, and that could be the reason why Ergodox would be a great combination to go with Emacs and Vim. The only thing I don't feel comfortable switching to Ergodox is how difficult it is to get used to Ergodox layout.


    Wait how does vim use mod keys? vim is mode based, regular keys do things based on the mode you're in, very few things require mod keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Mon, 09 September 2013, 22:10:55
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.

    Vim is good of course. But IMHO, it only changes the typing speed not the experience. Emacs and Vim both make heavy use of mod keys, and that could be the reason why Ergodox would be a great combination to go with Emacs and Vim. The only thing I don't feel comfortable switching to Ergodox is how difficult it is to get used to Ergodox layout.


    Wait how does vim use mod keys? vim is mode based, regular keys do things based on the mode you're in, very few things require mod keys.

    Yes that's right. Emacs uses mods more often. But in Vim you do need to hit ESC very often to get out of insertion mode. I could be wrong tho. Obviously I am not a Vim expert.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 09 September 2013, 22:49:47
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.

    Vim is good of course. But IMHO, it only changes the typing speed not the experience. Emacs and Vim both make heavy use of mod keys, and that could be the reason why Ergodox would be a great combination to go with Emacs and Vim. The only thing I don't feel comfortable switching to Ergodox is how difficult it is to get used to Ergodox layout.




    Wait how does vim use mod keys? vim is mode based, regular keys do things based on the mode you're in, very few things require mod keys.

    Yes that's right. Emacs uses mods more often. But in Vim you do need to hit ESC very often to get out of insertion mode. I could be wrong tho. Obviously I am not a Vim expert.

    That is true. I've just never really considered ESC a mod key since you don't press and hold it.
    The edox is good for that since i can have ESC where caps lock goes and backspace on a thumb
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Mon, 09 September 2013, 23:45:58
    So could master race vim! I kid, I kid. You would probably love it.

    Vim is good of course. But IMHO, it only changes the typing speed not the experience. Emacs and Vim both make heavy use of mod keys, and that could be the reason why Ergodox would be a great combination to go with Emacs and Vim. The only thing I don't feel comfortable switching to Ergodox is how difficult it is to get used to Ergodox layout.




    Wait how does vim use mod keys? vim is mode based, regular keys do things based on the mode you're in, very few things require mod keys.

    Yes that's right. Emacs uses mods more often. But in Vim you do need to hit ESC very often to get out of insertion mode. I could be wrong tho. Obviously I am not a Vim expert.

    That is true. I've just never really considered ESC a mod key since you don't press and hold it.
    The edox is good for that since i can have ESC where caps lock goes and backspace on a thumb

    So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Tue, 10 September 2013, 00:10:15
    Updated my layout visual aid generator.  Now integrates better into the MassDrop firmware source download,
    warns about configuration mismatches when PRESS action is different than RELEASE action for ktrans, kprrel, shprre.
    here's the old post: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1024010#msg1024010

    Here is the new patch file: [attachurl=2]
    unzip it into your MassDrop firmware source directory.
    Then issue the command> patch --strip=3 -i edva.patch
    again, this relies upon gcc and m4 being in the path.
    then issue the command> make visaid
    It'll compile the executable, run it, run m4, generate the visaid.svg file.
    Then you can view/print/manipulate with Inkscape.

    here's a picture of the layout visual aid which gets generated:[attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Tue, 10 September 2013, 00:11:50
    So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
    zxcv took a tad bit of getting used to, b and k a bit too but less than zxcv. The rest was easy because I put everything where it felt like it should go.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 10 September 2013, 01:22:24
    The great thing of the ergodox is that you can map it as you want. you can also define a permanent layer for programming.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 10 September 2013, 03:40:33
    So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
    about as hard as the transition from being brutally attacked by a gang of armed thugs to being sensually massaged by a group of the most stunningly gorgeous & attractive people you could ever dream of having intimate sensual times with. it's a little bit odd. not like anything you've ever experienced. but it's undeniably all good ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 10 September 2013, 08:11:18
    So how hard do you think the transition from ANSI layout to edox layout is?
    about as hard as the transition from being brutally attacked by a gang of armed thugs to being sensually massaged by a group of the most stunningly gorgeous & attractive people you could ever dream of having intimate sensual times with. it's a little bit odd. not like anything you've ever experienced. but it's undeniably all good ;)

    Sounds like it is really worth the time to switch to Ergodox. I must get one.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 10 September 2013, 09:45:36
    I'm sorry if this has been covered already in this thread, but I'm curious if the PCBs support mirroring without too much trouble. Meaning, putting the teensy, usb, and all that on the left side and the IOCP on the right.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 10 September 2013, 10:49:28
    I'm sorry if this has been covered already in this thread, but I'm curious if the PCBs support mirroring without too much trouble. Meaning, putting the teensy, usb, and all that on the left side and the IOCP on the right.

    You can, I think all you'll need to do is mount stuff in opposite side of PCB and setup a mirrored layout on the Massdrop site.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 10 September 2013, 10:52:51
    things aren't meant to fit into the cases that massdrop supply very well if you do that though, so you might need to get customey - not sure if it needs some custom tweaking to the firmware too, to make it poll the switches correctly and whatnot. so it's doable, but not hassle-free.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:23:37
    The acrylic plates are symmetrical though, so why couldn't you just invert the order of the plates and flip them over?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:28:43
    the issue is electrical. if you mount the teensy
    on the wrong side of the PCB, the power pin of teensy
    is not connected to power trace of PCB. similar issues for
    all pins of teensy and I/O expander...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 10 September 2013, 11:32:22
    the issue is electrical. if you mount the teensy
    on the wrong side of the PCB, the power pin of teensy
    is not connected to power trace of PCB. similar issues for
    all pins of teensy and I/O expander...

    Mount them on the correct side then, and just invert the order of the layers. This should work, yes, the Teensy would be on the bottom side and so will the connectors.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 10 September 2013, 12:42:44
    You can actually mount the Teensy upside down, on the top side of the PCB. You only need to put the pins in from the other side. The expander should be possible to invert by bending all the legs over to the other side (I'm curious to see this one, no-one has done it yet to my knowledge). You may need to think the other components through another time as well. All two-lead components are of course simple to mirror, getting all connectors connecting the correct traces is more interesting... The acrylics can just be flipped and re-arranged.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:31:57
    Ergodox experts, a noob question for you. I think the massdrop edox group buy does not provide stabillizers? Is edox pcb compatible with cherry stabilizers (pcb mounted)? Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 10 September 2013, 18:09:05
    the mass drop pcb does not support pcb stabilizers, a later revision that mechanicalkeyboards.com sells does support pcb stabilizers

    however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 10 September 2013, 18:36:06
    the mass drop pcb does not support pcb stabilizers, a later revision that mechanicalkeyboards.com sells does support pcb stabilizers

    however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.

    That's too bad. Do you know how I can get an Ergodox that supports stabilizer then (other than making pcb and cases all by myself)?

    EDIT:

    Never mind. Costar stab is ok too.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 10 September 2013, 23:01:11
    Should probably note though that the stabilizer cutouts for one of the thumb keys (on each hand) didn't quite line up correctly.  There was talk of fixing it before the last run, but I haven't heard anything either way.

    Though, there were a few people that made the improperly aligned cutouts work anyway.  And a lot of us (myself included) haven't found it necessary to use stabilizers at all :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Wed, 11 September 2013, 00:18:24
    Should probably note though that the stabilizer cutouts for one of the thumb keys (on each hand) didn't quite line up correctly.  There was talk of fixing it before the last run, but I haven't heard anything either way.

    Though, there were a few people that made the improperly aligned cutouts work anyway.  And a lot of us (myself included) haven't found it necessary to use stabilizers at all :)

    Thank you for your reply. Then I guess I should just get an Ergodox in whatever way I can get it and stop worrying about stabilizer stuff.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 11 September 2013, 07:19:46
    however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.
    Massdrop's case supports stabilisers only on one of the two thumb keys per half-keyboard, because of a bug in Litsters design.
    Because the plate is extra thick, each stabiliser must be modified and then force-fitted or glued in there.

    As said before, you don't need stabilisers for the keys to function. You might like them, though.  The Kinesis does not have stabilisers on the large thumb keys either, and you never hear anyone complain about that.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 11 September 2013, 08:46:10
    IMHO, you don't need stabs on 2x keys, but I can understand if someone needs them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thimplum on Wed, 11 September 2013, 09:39:35
    Dox is online! He's like, never online...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rknize on Wed, 11 September 2013, 18:58:50
    I was able to use the misaligned holes just fine.  You install the stabs backwards and then you have to twist the center bend in the wire slightly to clear the back of the switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:28:29
    i don't use stabilizers :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 11 September 2013, 21:46:13
    I'll be editing the PCB and the litster case to support all three types of stabs this weekend.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 11 September 2013, 22:05:28
    Updated my layout visual aid generator.  Now integrates better into the MassDrop firmware source download,
    warns about configuration mismatches when PRESS action is different than RELEASE action for ktrans, kprrel, shprre.
    here's the old post: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg1024010#msg1024010

    Here is the new patch file: (Attachment Link)
    unzip it into your MassDrop firmware source directory.
    Then issue the command> patch --strip=3 -i edva.patch
    again, this relies upon gcc and m4 being in the path.
    then issue the command> make visaid
    It'll compile the executable, run it, run m4, generate the visaid.svg file.
    Then you can view/print/manipulate with Inkscape.

    here's a picture of the layout visual aid which gets generated: (Attachment Link)


    Wow, it worked!  Here the layout it generated from my sources:

    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=35081)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:16:58
    And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

    EDIT: Removed currently, changes required.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:58:49
    (Attachment Link)

    And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

    but MOZ, the PCB mechanical keyboards sells has the design with the chery pcb stabs
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 12 September 2013, 03:01:21
    (Attachment Link)

    And there you go the plate, so anyone wants, you can have these laser cut and install costar or cherry plate stabs. Still have to get the PCB done, that will take longer, as I am still playing around with KiCAD

    but MOZ, the PCB mechanical keyboards sells has the design with the chery pcb stabs

    Just saw the PCB designs from bpiphany again. It does have PCB stabs. Good thing, however I will have to edit the plate again, as the orientation for one of the stabs on each side is inverted.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 12 September 2013, 11:44:06
    So, I made a couple of changes to the litster case:
    - Now supports plate mounted cherry stabs besides costar and PCB mounted cherry stabs
    - Made a universal design so you can swap between full size and classical design without having to change plate and desolder your switches. This will also support any already built classic size ErgoDox plate.

    Current plates with new stab cutouts:
    [attachimg=3]

    New proposed layered design supporting universal design:
    [attachimg=2]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 12 September 2013, 13:33:40
    i like the universal design :D, its the same dimensions as the litster case right? i still want some damn new tops/bottoms cut instead of these clear ones and scratched up aluminium ones. havent exactly asked around....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 12 September 2013, 13:48:05
    i like the universal design :D, its the same dimensions as the litster case right? i still want some damn new tops/bottoms cut instead of these clear ones and scratched up aluminium ones. havent exactly asked around....

    Yes, the dimensions are exactly the same, the only difference is that there is one extra bolt, which is not present in the full hand case, and there plate layer is divided into two parts, a classic style plate and an "adapter".

    Thus anyone with a classic design should be able to fit the plate on a full hand with the adapter and drilling that one hole in the remaining four layers.

    I could hook you up with an new case if you want acrylic only, or any part of the case in fact, send me a PM and we can work something out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 15 September 2013, 21:42:06
    Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Tue, 17 September 2013, 23:56:01
    Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

    Cool! However it has things like ergodox workman and gelatin (??) but not ergodox dvorak ??? 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Wed, 18 September 2013, 04:47:46
    Perhaps you can submit that one?

    Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Wed, 18 September 2013, 05:57:06
    Layouts get submitted by enthusiasts like you and me so first person to submit a Dvorak layout for the Ergodox get's the honors.

    I'm afraid Gelatin is my fault, I'm working on a Colemak design that works well with all the Latin diacritics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic) and letters used by non-english languages since the current Dvorak/Colemak designs are horrible for non English languages (just try typing Altgr + t + u  on a regular basis)  :eek:



    Just a quick heads up that Patrick Gillespie has added the Ergodox keyboard layout to his excellent keyboard analyser,  for those of you creating a custom layout this allows you to fully optimize the layout and compare existing layouts such as Dvorak, Colemak, etc on your Ergodox!

    http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer

    Cool! However it has things like ergodox workman and gelatin (??) but not ergodox dvorak ???
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 18 September 2013, 12:55:37
    Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.

    Initial mod:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg840977#msg840977

    Code that includes buzzer mod AND lights up the teensy built-in LED to put it to use as a layer indicator:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg844285#msg844285

    MP3 sound sample (from other thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.msg873706#msg873706)) showcasing how the buzzer makes the keyboard "clicky"
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42231.0;attach=20386

    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=17926;image)(http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=18256;image)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spm on Sat, 21 September 2013, 09:39:23
    I'm having problem with one of my ergodox now. I have two from Massdrop group buy. One with MX blue which is working fine and one with MX Clear. On the MX Clear version I have 3 keys which are doing weird things. If I press these keys (if I do it slowly it do this issue in 50% cases) it is registered by computer twice or even more time (on key switches when writing I got 3 letters instead of one...) And sometimes this key is not registered (missing char). All of these problematic keys are on the right side with teensy.

    Any idea what can be wrong? Have I only bad luck with 3 broken mx switches or can be something wrong in my keyboard?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sat, 21 September 2013, 09:56:59
    Switch is most likely screwed.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Sat, 21 September 2013, 14:31:17
    Can you point me to an explanation / instructions regarding the ErgoDox "with buzzer mod"? Thanks.  I'm about receive my two EgroDox PCBs from Massdrop.
    Initial mod:.....
    Thanks, I'll look at that more closely when I understand what it means :)  Which may be after the boards and parts get here.

    Which prompts another question.

    Can I buy the expander chip from anyone on here, group buy, spares, etc?  Otherwise it has to be an order to Mouser most likely and that won't be for some time until I build up more than £50 order value.

    I should have the Teensy on the way.  I can get, or have got 1N4148's and resistors.

    Also some info on where to get sensibly priced solder paste for surface mount diodes would be good as I looked in the UK catalogues and it was up to 8 times the price of a reel of solder!

    I have some early 1990s cherry black PCB mount switches that I plan to unsolder from the G80 and use but I'll want some cherry red style springs.  Would anyone reading this be able to point me to some please?  Or some more progressive springs that start light like the reds but become heavier once past the actuating point, so the bottoming is more buffered.

    Thanks.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 22 September 2013, 01:15:54
    Haven't tried progressive springs, but I think they would feel very mushy. To dampen bottoming out, what works really well and is much easier to install is 40A durometer o-rings such as these:
    http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Sun, 22 September 2013, 04:29:02
    Thanks, I got a sample of a few of all three a year ago and played with them in various combinations and multiples.  Use them on the 'gaming' arrow keys to shorten the throw and soften the bottom, and recently space bar and backspace and enter keys to soften the bottom and cut the noise.

    I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

    That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

    There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sun, 22 September 2013, 05:47:48
    Thanks, I got a sample of a few of all three a year ago and played with them in various combinations and multiples.  Use them on the 'gaming' arrow keys to shorten the throw and soften the bottom, and recently space bar and backspace and enter keys to soften the bottom and cut the noise.

    I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

    That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

    There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.

    sounds like you want clear springs. actuation is rated at 65cN at actuation and near 100cN at bottom out; these are heavier than blacks at the bottom.

    you should be able to get some easily in the classifieds. I imagine there's more than a few people with these put to a side after an ergoclear mod. Otherwise, you might have to try and source for a pretty rare variation of 67g korean springs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Sun, 22 September 2013, 06:35:08
    Thanks, :) but...
    • I want the light actuation of the reds.  Isn't that about 30g to start with, 40g actuation, 55g or so at the bottom?  Forget just now.  Been maybe a year since I last was into this.
    • I don't light the initial weight of the blacks.
    • And I don't like the way the caps wobble of the firm springs.  And I don't like the louder upper clack.
    • So, Perhaps I'm looking for 30g to start, 40g actuation, 100g or so at the bottom?

    Maybe that would be like a 'red' spring with a fatter softer O ring, 10 or 20 Durometer? 2mm diameter?  Though I think the spring might be more linear in it's compression than an O ring which might be initially nothing then suddenly too much.

    Not sure just now how many grams 65cN represents.  Newtons = Mass x acceleration ( kg x (m/s²) ).  But for these springs the actuation is a static compression force rather than an acceleration?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sun, 22 September 2013, 07:50:33
    the springs that you are looking for doesn't exist, not specifically at the weight/force you're looking at. clears are as close as you're going to get, as it's probably the only spring that's designed for a drastic increase in force after actuation.

    look at rknize's thread as a guide, and it explains the clear springs's force/rate pretty well. red springs are not going to have that cushioning effect you're looking at.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 22 September 2013, 21:38:34

    I think progressive would be better.  With the Cherry Blacks, I typed for years at work with no bottoming ever.  So I think the bottom 2mm at 'Black' spring rating and the top 2mm at 'Red' rating might do the job.

    That would mean a soft (perhaps that what you mean by mushy?) end of stroke with no sudden jolt to the fingers or accompanying impact noise.

    There would be more top end stop noise though I expect as there would be greater spring return force from however much of that bottom firmer spring rate I pressed into.

    The cherry MY switches are very progressive, and sound like most you describe, however many people also describe them as horrible feeling. Here's a review of them at the bottom of this page:
    http://www.overclock.net/t/920053/my-opinions-on-cherry-switches
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 23 September 2013, 17:27:21
    The cherry MY switches are very progressive, and sound like most you describe, however many people also describe them as horrible feeling.

    They also require bottoming-out to activate, which is what it sounds like he's trying to avoid. This is why they feel so horrible; their resistance increases sharply just as you're nearing their activation point. That progressive resistance curve, which would be a boon to resist bottoming-out an MX switch that activates near the top of its stroke, works against you when the activation point is at the very bottom of the stroke.

    Cherry MY switches use sandwiched contact membranes similar to rubber domes, just with a more robust keying mechanism to press the membrane contacts together; the MY appears designed for cheap durability, not utter cheapness like rubber domes nor ergonomic and high-quality durability like MXs. Springs from MY switches are a PITA to extract and will not interchange with MX switch springs.

    I have a similar interest in retrofitting my MX clears with a lighter activation force while retaining most of the high resistance past the activation point to avoid bottoming out, so I'll check out that rknize thread linked avove...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Mon, 23 September 2013, 18:21:42
    Thanks all for the help, info suggestions, link to that excellent work, and yes I'm trying to avoid bottoming out but have a light actuation force.

    I wonder about cutting of a few coils off the clear springs.  Then it's still the same 13grams spring rate, but would have a reduced force starting point, more like the Originative 45 but with a steeper increase in force, an actuation of 40g like the reds, and an end of about 75g.

    Don't know why no-one seems to have had such a spring made.

    This is probably the wrong thread now for this somewhat 'off topic' detail tangent, should be on that springs thread I guess.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Mon, 23 September 2013, 22:23:03
    And they also require bottoming-out to activate, which is what it sounds like he's trying to avoid.

    No they don't. I have an MY keyboard and the keys seem to actuate lower than an MX keyboard, but you really don't have to bottom out the keys. It's much better than rubber domes in that respect, but not nearly as good an MX of course.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Ian S on Tue, 24 September 2013, 06:12:04
    This first hand info regarding these switches should pasted into in some switch Wiki somewhere?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Tue, 24 September 2013, 08:05:45
    Possibly. You can google the site for info about them from other posts, here's a rather favorable review and info:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8576.msg152897#msg152897
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Tue, 24 September 2013, 22:50:15
    Anyone know when these will be avalible again?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 25 September 2013, 09:21:20
    Anyone know when these will be avalible again?
    The latest Massdrop run is closed already?
    I have seen a few ready-made Massdrop-ErgoDox keyboards for sale now and then.

    Technically, the plans are free and parts are available from other sources. You can get the PCB at MechanicalKeyboards.com (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=537).
    There is a parts list on ErgoDox.org (http://ergodox.org/Hardware.aspx) with links to where to buy components in the US.
    There are projects on this forum for other types of cases.
    The PCB supports PCB-mounted switches so you won't need any plate.
    Keycaps are a bit harder to source. Unfortunately, the board does not support anything but 1.5u modifiers in the outermost columns.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Wed, 25 September 2013, 12:00:04
    Anyone know when these will be avalible again?
    The latest Massdrop run is closed already?
    I have seen a few ready-made Massdrop-ErgoDox keyboards for sale now and then.

    Technically, the plans are free and parts are available from other sources. You can get the PCB at MechanicalKeyboards.com (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=537).
    There is a parts list on ErgoDox.org (http://ergodox.org/Hardware.aspx) with links to where to buy components in the US.
    There are projects on this forum for other types of cases.
    The PCB supports PCB-mounted switches so you won't need[/] any plate.
    Keycaps are a bit harder to source. Unfortunately, the board does not support anything but 1.5u modifiers in the outermost columns.

    The ongoing Hyper Fuse GB has Ergodox set (SP DSA caps).

    And thanks for pointing out a way to build Ergodox without Massdrop. I didn't realise MK has Ergodox PCB in stock.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 25 September 2013, 12:37:08
    I can cut acrylic cases if needed, just shoot me a PM.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JPG on Wed, 25 September 2013, 14:39:38
    Just saw this on massdrop : https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox-top-sheet

    Aluminium top sheets for ergodox case!

    Enjoy!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 26 September 2013, 16:50:25
    Keycaps are a bit harder to source. Unfortunately, the board does not support anything but 1.5u modifiers in the outermost columns.

    If you'll be using a QWERTY layout and want labeled caps, IMO the best option is to get a cheap used Cherry G81 off eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-MY-7000-POS-Credit-Card-Swipe-Keyboard-Black-G81-7000LPDUS-2-/400570231772) to scavenge caps from, then fill out the remaining 1.5x and 2x keys with $1 blank caps from Signature Plastics (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.msg943985#msg943985).

    If you want a blank cap set, the cheapest option would be to wait for MD to offer another group buy round for blank ErgoDox cap sets (they seem to alternate offering DSA one round, then DCS the next, etc.). If you don't want to use MD for some reason, you can get an 87-key (tenkeyless) set from WASD or eBay, use the F-key caps in the set for any missing 1x spots, and fill out the remaining 1.5/2x keys from them or Signature Plastics.

    Personally, I would LOVE to see MD offer a group buy for labeled DSA caps (at least the 1x keys), which would be readily rearrangeable into any desired layout without running afoul of row profiling.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Sun, 13 October 2013, 20:28:05
    This might be a dumb question, but could someone tell me which files I need to make those layered acrylic case? I am totally lost in those 9 different case design files on Ergodox site.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 14 October 2013, 01:38:55
    You need the layered design by litster files.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: seferphier on Thu, 17 October 2013, 03:15:04
    Is there any way to make my Ergodox metal plated? really miss the clacky feel of filcos.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 23 October 2013, 06:14:31
    So, the left side of my Ergodox just stopped working.  The computer told me that a USB device is drawing too much power and had to shut it off.  I have owned and used this keyboard since June and this has never been an issue.  Anybody know what's up?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 23 October 2013, 06:22:11
    So, the left side of my Ergodox just stopped working.  The computer told me that a USB device is drawing too much power and had to shut it off.  I have owned and used this keyboard since June and this has never been an issue.  Anybody know what's up?

    several possible points of failure - the expander, the 3.5mm jacks (both of which are less likely) and the more likely culprit - the trrs cable. I have had both stock cables from two kits fail on me with no reason whatsoever. Stripping the cables afterward revealed a broken wire inside both cables.

    edit: if you have a multimeter, you could easily test if its the case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 23 October 2013, 08:22:57
    So, the left side of my Ergodox just stopped working.  The computer told me that a USB device is drawing too much power and had to shut it off.  I have owned and used this keyboard since June and this has never been an issue.  Anybody know what's up?

    several possible points of failure - the expander, the 3.5mm jacks (both of which are less likely) and the more likely culprit - the trrs cable. I have had both stock cables from two kits fail on me with no reason whatsoever. Stripping the cables afterward revealed a broken wire inside both cables.

    edit: if you have a multimeter, you could easily test if its the case.

    I do not have a multimeter.

    I had suspicions it might be the TRSS cable, considering the right side with the direct connection to the computer is working fine.  I have another TRSS cable laying around and I will plug that in and see what happens.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Wed, 23 October 2013, 16:21:36
    Yep, it was the TRSS cable.  I wonder where I could find some of higher quality, if that is possible.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 23 October 2013, 16:26:21
    IIRC I got mine here (http://www.mycablemart.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=156) during the prototype phase, and haven't had any problems with it this whole time.  I tend to be rather gentle with my cables though, so of course YMMV.

    Edit:  There have also been a few posts around here about people making their own, along with some to sell - much more expensive, but correspondingly better build and prettier :) .  Don't have time to find the links though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Wed, 23 October 2013, 17:54:07
    For those that want "fancy" cables there are also some ebay options:

    Connectors:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/350883221553

    White flat cable:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/350890066310
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Wed, 23 October 2013, 18:59:30
    For those that want "fancy" cables there are also some ebay options:

    Connectors:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/350883221553

    White flat cable:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/350890066310

    I used these when i made my cable
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/130864029493

    but wow ebay just came up with a lot more options like that one you linked, they didn't have these earlier this year i didnt see.

    time to make me some more trrs cables :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 23 October 2013, 22:08:50
    I used similar connectors to what jalli linked for the ones I made, and have also tried that Glod used too; while prettier, those in jalli's link are harder to work with as there aren't tabs to hook the wire to before soldering. Its a straight 4 pole design, and anything thicker than 26 awg wires will have a hard time adhering to the metal contacts. I opted for a one with a wider and shorter barrel casing like these.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-New-3-5mm-1-8-Stereo-TRRS-4-pole-Plug-A-V-Connector-for-iPhone-Headphone-/170881460226?pt=US_Cell_Phone_PDA_Cables_Adapters&hash=item27c9542802

    You can see what you have to work with on the inside. Quite a nightmare to solder with less flexible wires.

    I used 26 awg audio wire from btg (about 3.20 usd for a cable 1 ft long, braided design requires whatever length x4) to make mine, and have been rather pleased with the flexibility and quality of the stranded wire (though way overkill for a keyboard). The result is the bottom cable in this picture.

    (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3697/9568375418_cb32cb2a03.jpg)


    An alternative for a larger quantity of cheaper stranded wires would be those from NTE, about 6 usd for 25 ft of wire).

    I can help with regards to the actual making of trrs cables, but shipping materials to and from Singapore would make the costs stupidly and unnecessarily expensive.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 24 October 2013, 03:50:42
    I used these when i made my cable
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/130864029493
    Those looks like the one that Pexon PCs used. I see his ErgoDox replacement cables are no longer available on his/their site. (isn't it a one-man operation? ...)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: syntaxritual on Sat, 26 October 2013, 16:29:47
    Ergodox.org downloads are broken at the moment, and I need the *.dxf files for the acrylic case to have it made. Could someone post a working link, or the zip for the dxf's?

    Thanks in advance!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sat, 26 October 2013, 16:54:22
    I think moz has a updated design of the acrylic case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: syntaxritual on Sat, 26 October 2013, 16:56:25
    Awesome, I'm pretty new here.... where/who is this Moz? :)

    Thanks for the reply!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 26 October 2013, 19:39:09
    Actually, like one or two pages back MOZ posts to the thread the updated plate three, although since they're otherwise the same and the ergodox site was working, that's all he's posted here, unless he's gone back and edited it to carry the rest of the files.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: orki on Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:42:42
    (1) I have been using one of my two ergodoxen from the third MAssdrop group buy. The main issue I have with it relates to the screws in the acrylic case sticking out. Here's a picture:
    [attach=1]

     There have been mentions of rubber feet, but I haven't been able to track any down (probably due to not knowing what to look for). Is there a good solution?

    (2) For my second ErgoDox, the mini-USB female connector that was shipped seems to be broken; one of the pins is actually missing. Is there a way to source it cheaply? I am in Southern California and wouldn't mind driving a bit.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vun on Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:13:26
    (1) I have been using one of my two ergodoxen from the third MAssdrop group buy. The main issue I have with it relates to the screws in the acrylic case sticking out. Here's a picture:
    (Attachment Link)

     There have been mentions of rubber feet, but I haven't been able to track any down (probably due to not knowing what to look for). Is there a good solution?

    (2) For my second ErgoDox, the mini-USB female connector that was shipped seems to be broken; one of the pins is actually missing. Is there a way to source it cheaply? I am in Southern California and wouldn't mind driving a bit.

    I put them in the other way around, so that the bolt heads face downward since I like to think they're gentler on the surface underneath.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: orki on Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:23:10
    (1) I have been using one of my two ergodoxen from the third MAssdrop group buy. The main issue I have with it relates to the screws in the acrylic case sticking out. Here's a picture:
    (Attachment Link)

     There have been mentions of rubber feet, but I haven't been able to track any down (probably due to not knowing what to look for). Is there a good solution?


    I put them in the other way around, so that the bolt heads face downward since I like to think they're gentler on the surface underneath.

    Hmmm, that's possible but it'd look pretty ugly. I am still holding out hope for a cleaner solution.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:26:14
    If you have a drill, you can countersink them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:49:56
    I'm still waiting for my Ergodox kit but from the first day I saw images of those bolts/nuts I figured they had to go.

    I'm thinking countersunk bolts with countersunk nuts, since countersunk nuts are a bit hard to come by I might use nutserts and glue them in place (pressing/riveting would probably crack the acrylic).

    In regards to the acrylic in general, be careful when drilling and tightening the bolts as to not crack it, some people actually operate their drills in reverse and use the heat to "melt" rather than bite into the plastic but I'm not sure if that would even work with a countersink.

    For those of you who have not seen many countersunk nuts before you can see some examples here:

    (http://pfahl-verbindungstechnik.de/images/rundmutterrsm612x20vz_160.jpg)
    http://pfahl-verbindungstechnik.de/rundmuttern/rs/huelsenmuttertyprsm68x20stahlverzinkt10st.php
    (http://pfahl-verbindungstechnik.de/images/rundmutterrsm612x20gs_160.jpg)
    http://pfahl-verbindungstechnik.de/rundmuttern/rs/huelsenmuttertyprsm68x20stahlschwarz10st.php

    Ebay Store:
    http://stores.ebay.de/PFAHL-Verbindungstechnik?_rdc=1

    I'm hoping to find something in North America but I might end up trying to order from those guys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shad on Mon, 28 October 2013, 11:00:43
    (1) I have been using one of my two ergodoxen from the third MAssdrop group buy. The main issue I have with it relates to the screws in the acrylic case sticking out. Here's a picture:
    (Attachment Link)

     There have been mentions of rubber feet, but I haven't been able to track any down (probably due to not knowing what to look for). Is there a good solution?

    I'm pretty happy with my cheap solution that consists on using o-ring. I bought them to "silence" the keycaps and I had quite a lot of spare. I place an o-ring on top of an other and glue them to keep it this way.
    It fits tightly around the screw (I don't need to glue them to the screw), preventing it from scratching the table or even moving while I type.

    I'll post some pictures later on if time permit (and people are interested).

    Regards,
    shad
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: nodnerb on Tue, 29 October 2013, 23:46:40
    I turned the bolts upside-down to you and covered them with some sugru. Non-slip and doesn't scratch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:46:53
    the mass drop pcb does not support pcb stabilizers, a later revision that mechanicalkeyboards.com sells does support pcb stabilizers

    however that doesn't really matter, the litster acrylic case massdrop sells only supports costar stabilizers and does not include them.

    That's too bad. Do you know how I can get an Ergodox that supports stabilizer then (other than making pcb and cases all by myself)?

    EDIT:

    Never mind. Costar stab is ok too.

    Costar stab is supported... REQUIRES minor modification..

    PM for details.(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
    Title: RGB Backlight for Ergodox
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 10 November 2013, 23:01:31
    Been having some fun recently designing an RGB backlight solution for the Ergodox, I welcome all comments, suggestions, modifications and pull requests.

    1. The design uses one mid-high power RGB LED per half, a light pipe is used to direct this into .75mm fiber optic cables, one per key.
    2. The optical fibers are routed via a hole to the back of the keyboard where each fiber is routed to the key in question and up just like one lead for a normal key LED.
    3. There are several components to this, rather than building my own driver(s) for the LEDs and to maximise efficiency for the 500mA USB limit I used a ready made driver.
    4. Components:

    The driver is configured via I2C so it uses the same bus as the keyboard halves communicate with and the LED can be placed on either side although the controller and parts are confined to a single side only.


    Total buying individual components: $42.3
    Total when buying in bulk, approx: $20

    Here is a snapshot of the PCB as it is currently:
    [attachimg=2]

    I still need to work on the masks, case modifications, some more PCB mods and optimisations but I think the design should work.

    The PCB and Schematics are already on Github:
    https://github.com/jalli/ErgoDox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Thu, 14 November 2013, 00:41:00
    Well, I have finished everything up and today I ordered the parts and the PCBs, let's hope I got everything right!

    If everything works out I'll have all the parts by middle of December so I can solder it all up and give it a test.

    I don't recommend anyone order one until I have tested everything out but in case you are curious what a one off PCB costs they are $226.15 for a set of 3 (ouch).

    Updated link to latest version of PCB:
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/aExJPU0W (http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/aExJPU0W)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 14 November 2013, 10:55:21
    keep us informed, i would def be interested in swapping out my pcb with a backlit one, mostly just for looks lol. im sure many would split the cost of buying a few :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 14 November 2013, 11:05:11
    Nice, and fix those secondary switch locations in the outer column while you are at it... ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Thu, 14 November 2013, 11:14:36
    oh and will this new design work with the existing litster style acrylic case or will we need a new case design cut? i guess i should hold off my excitement until december/january. lol
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 15 November 2013, 09:02:52
    Nice, and fix those secondary switch locations in the outer column while you are at it... ;)

    I canceled my order the same night when I found a bug in the soldermask for LED driver, over the weekend I'm going to fix it and any other issues.

    I'll fix those secondary switch locations while I'm at it, I also need to do some work on the MCP23018 to the LED driver.

    One idea that I had was to add the circuits to allow the Teensy components to optionally be soldered directly on the the PCB instead of a separate board since the backlight already includes SMD components, any thoughts on this?

    Anyone have any other requests while I'm at it?

    I'm hoping the Lister case will will work with the RGB backlight components you might need to remove some material, if so it should be easy using a dremel tool or a drill press.


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 16 November 2013, 05:54:02
    If you redesign the ErgoDox to take SMD components directly, you've ticked one row off on my to-do-list ;) My thought is that the components should be possible to fit somewhere lower down on the board to allow for the top to be cut more flush to the top switches. I believe the MCP23018 comes in a QFP as well or a TSSOP or something similar in pitch. Another idea would be to investigate the possibility to have both sides using an ATmega and make them talk to eachother over ISP, but I don't know anything about that protocol...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sat, 16 November 2013, 07:34:11
    You might want to dicuss matters with regack as he too has worked quite a bit on smd component based pcb, even mcp23018 in qfp package while designing theergot pcb and the ghpad.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sat, 16 November 2013, 14:28:20
    I've had a look at allowing the Teensy to be replaced on-board SMD components and I think it's near impossible with out a fairly extensive redesign.

    The one thing I'm not happy with is that on the MCP23018 side the assembler will have to bridge the normal LED pins to the RGB Backlight pins, hence loosing the ability to have the normal LEDs on one side.

    I don't think it's a huge issue but it still bothers me a bit, unfortunately I can't see any way around it other than using a second Teensy for the "left" side or replacing the MCP23018 with another chip with more IO pins.

    I fixed the secondary switch locations in the outside row, here is the current PCB as I ordered it.

    Additional information: The guys at OSH Park have been super great and pointed out that they don't do plated slots, hence as shown below there is a tiny dot where the USB connector calls for plated slots, I'll sort it out afterwards using a drill but for future runs it might be better to replace it with a via large enough to accommodate the flat tabs.

    Update:

    Please do not order the PCB as is, it's missing a ground connection to two pads, I'll upload a new version after testing and debugging which fixes any known issues.

    (http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/top_image/aExJPU0W/i.png)
    (http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/bottom_image/aExJPU0W/i.png)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 22 November 2013, 21:53:37
    (1) I have been using one of my two ergodoxen from the third MAssdrop group buy. The main issue I have with it relates to the screws in the acrylic case sticking out. Here's a picture:
    (Attachment Link)

     There have been mentions of rubber feet, but I haven't been able to track any down (probably due to not knowing what to look for). Is there a good solution?

    (2) For my second ErgoDox, the mini-USB female connector that was shipped seems to be broken; one of the pins is actually missing. Is there a way to source it cheaply? I am in Southern California and wouldn't mind driving a bit.

    I use plastic screws, and the extruding part can be cut if necessary.

    Since I didn't catch up the 4th round in Massdrop, I ordered all the parts my self. The USB connectors and other parts are from Digikeys, as described in ergodox.org

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 22 November 2013, 22:01:24
    Well, I have finished everything up and today I ordered the parts and the PCBs, let's hope I got everything right!

    If everything works out I'll have all the parts by middle of December so I can solder it all up and give it a test.

    I don't recommend anyone order one until I have tested everything out but in case you are curious what a one off PCB costs they are $226.15 for a set of 3 (ouch).

    Updated link to latest version of PCB:
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/aExJPU0W (http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/aExJPU0W)

    I have ordered the original PCB from a local source, the price is roughly $80 (10 pcs).

    [attach=1]

    There are some tiny glitches (I have to remove protecting paints on some soldering points manually), but overall the price is acceptable. Next time I might order some red boards for MX red switches...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 22 November 2013, 22:22:22
    I have ordered the original PCB from a local source, the price is roughly $80 (10 pcs).

    (Attachment Link)

    There are some tiny glitches (I have to remove protecting paints on some soldering points manually), but overall the price is acceptable. Next time I might order some red boards for MX red switches...


    Where are you located?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 22 November 2013, 22:52:04
    I have ordered the original PCB from a local source, the price is roughly $80 (10 pcs).

    (Attachment Link)

    There are some tiny glitches (I have to remove protecting paints on some soldering points manually), but overall the price is acceptable. Next time I might order some red boards for MX red switches...


    Where are you located?

    Looks like he is in Taiwan, makes me feel bad about paying 10 times the price :P

    Kinda hard to see the board quality from the pictures, would be very interested in seeing something with higher resolution.

    The original PCB uses mostly through hole and large components with large pads where .1mm errors in soldermask, pads, vias and drill patterns probably aren't a big deal but when you start dealing with smaller things like my LED driver the total width of each pad is .254mm, if the soldermask is off by .1mm that's a big deal.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that some boards might not be FR4 Tg170° or better, these numbers basically tell you about the board strength, fire retardant properties, heat tolerance, etc.

    Finally you have to look at the quality of the pads, how flat they are, what plating do they have etc, a pad lifting off when you have soldered most of the components is a bad bad thing.

    If anyone is interested in learning a bit more about PCBs I recommend: http://www.youtube.com/user/EEVblog/search?query=pcb
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 22 November 2013, 23:18:56

    Looks like he is in Taiwan, makes me feel bad about paying 10 times the price :P

    Kinda hard to see the board quality from the pictures, would be very interested in seeing something with higher resolution.

    The original PCB uses mostly through hole and large components with large pads where .1mm errors in soldermask, pads, vias and drill patterns probably aren't a big deal but when you start dealing with smaller things like my LED driver the total width of each pad is .254mm, if the soldermask is off by .1mm that's a big deal.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that some boards might not be FR4 Tg170° or better, these numbers basically tell you about the board strength, fire retardant properties, heat tolerance, etc.

    Finally you have to look at the quality of the pads, how flat they are, what plating do they have etc, a pad lifting off when you have soldered most of the components is a bad bad thing.

    If anyone is interested in learning a bit more about PCBs I recommend: http://www.youtube.com/user/EEVblog/search?query=pcb

    Yes, I am in Taiwan.

    I know nothing about electronics, and that's why the left part of my ErgoDox is still dead (I put IC in the wrong way, my bad). I ordered these PCBs from here http://easypcbweb.blogspot.tw/ (http://easypcbweb.blogspot.tw/); however the webpage is in Traditional Chinese. According to the webpage, the PCBs use FR4 material. But other than that, I don't know how accurate the soldermasks could be. However, if your design is finalized, I would really like to test print some boards, and to see how it works.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 22 November 2013, 23:22:23
    I have ordered the original PCB from a local source, the price is roughly $80 (10 pcs).
    Nice that you have holes for PCB-mounted stabilisers. Too bad about the outermost columns not being fixed, though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 22 November 2013, 23:36:05
    Quote
    Yes, I am in Taiwan.

    I know nothing about electronics, and that's why the left part of my ErgoDox is still dead (I put IC in the wrong way, my bad). I ordered these PCBs from here http://easypcbweb.blogspot.tw/ (http://easypcbweb.blogspot.tw/); however the webpage is in Traditional Chinese. According to the webpage, the PCBs use FR4 material. But other than that, I don't know how accurate the soldermasks could be. However, if your design is finalized, I would really like to test print some boards, and to see how it works.

    I'm still waiting for everything to arrive here so I can test it all out, I'll be sure to post when I'm done, I'm more than a little envious you can get your PCBs for that price :)

     if you have more pictures I'd be really interested if you could post some.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 24 November 2013, 06:06:52
    I'm still waiting for everything to arrive here so I can test it all out, I'll be sure to post when I'm done, I'm more than a little envious you can get your PCBs for that price :)

     if you have more pictures I'd be really interested if you could post some.

    OK, I have taken some closed-up pictures, but they are too big to upload here.
    You can see the photos at the following G+ album
    https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE (https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE)
    If you need more details, please let me know

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 24 November 2013, 10:02:13

    OK, I have taken some closed-up pictures, but they are too big to upload here.
    You can see the photos at the following G+ album
    https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE (https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE)
    If you need more details, please let me know

    Thanks!

    Pros
        Looks like the plated slot for the USB connector is properly done.

    Cons
        On SW:07 (last photo, switch on the top left thumb section) it looks like the through hole(s) on the right have not been plated at all, if this is the case it could cause some serious issues.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 24 November 2013, 11:12:11

    OK, I have taken some closed-up pictures, but they are too big to upload here.
    You can see the photos at the following G+ album
    https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE (https://plus.google.com/photos/106952917630137220583/albums/5949790884465297665?authkey=CKqXk9WooJiv1QE)
    If you need more details, please let me know

    Cons
        On SW:07 (last photo, switch on the top left thumb section) it looks like the through hole(s) on the right have not been plated at all, if this is the case it could cause some serious issues.

    Good catch! Yes this isn't good, but as long as you use flux to make sure the solder will flow (and scrape any insulating material off the PCB beforehand if the pad isn't large enough) the result will be fine. (At the cost of extra prep work and time).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 24 November 2013, 12:09:04
    Could be just the solder mask that is missing the opening for the pads. There will still be some extra work to remove it of course.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Sun, 24 November 2013, 17:04:16
    Guys, please, I want to cut Litster's acrylic case but I could not find the required thickness of each layer to make the order.

    Deskthority wiki (http://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox) says
       "In litster's case design, the case is built from layers of acrylic (or aluminium) bolted together. The switch mounting plate layer is thicker than the usual 1.5 mm, making the switches friction-fit rather than snapped on ..."

    By this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/8656110029/) it seems that the layers 2,3 and 4 are using the same thickness ...

    Please?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 24 November 2013, 17:11:18
    Cons
        On SW:07 (last photo, switch on the top left thumb section) it looks like the through hole(s) on the right have not been plated at all, if this is the case it could cause some serious issues.

    Actually, the entire thumbkey region suffered the same issue. I have to scratch the paints manually.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 24 November 2013, 17:14:19
    Guys, please, I want to cut Litster's acrylic case but I could not find the required thickness of each layer to make the order.

    Deskthority wiki (http://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox) says
       "In litster's case design, the case is built from layers of acrylic (or aluminium) bolted together. The switch mounting plate layer is thicker than the usual 1.5 mm, making the switches friction-fit rather than snapped on ..."

    By this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/89364707@N02/8656110029/) it seems that the layers 2,3 and 4 are using the same thickness ...

    Please?

    Somewhere in this thread (page 8288), you should find the thickness of the layers:
    top: 1/8"
    middle 3 layers: 3/16"
    bottom: 1/8"

    In my case, I used 3 mm and 5 mm.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Sun, 24 November 2013, 19:11:28
    The three inner layers are 3/16" and the outer layers are 1/8".
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: agodinhost on Mon, 25 November 2013, 06:45:39
    I swear that I searched before asking - gee, there are too many pages in this topic.

    I will use your setup plainbriny:
    Layer 1 Top       - 3mm
    Layer 2 Spacer  - 5mm
    Layer 3 Plate     - 5mm
    Layer 4 Spacer  - 5mm
    Layer 5 Bottom  - 3mm

    Thank you very much plainbriny and kurplop!
     :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Tue, 26 November 2013, 04:03:40
    Wee, I just received my dox... now I just have to learn to solder. And have time ...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thisMoment on Tue, 26 November 2013, 18:11:06
    Got my ErgoDox all put together! Seems like I am close to having it all working, but I am experiencing a strange problem.

    The right hand side by itself seems to work fine, but as soon as the left hand side is plugged in, it starts inputting keystrokes. Normally, I would assume that just means I did some bad soldering somewhere (this is my first time soldering), but the keys it is inputting are all one row. If I open a text editor and plug in the left hand side, I get many repetitions of "arstd<Tab>" until I push down lots of keys and (I'm assuming) exceed the rollover limit. At this point, no keys will work until it is unplugged. I use Colemak, so this is more or less the home row.

    This seems like it could be a coincidence, but I am more inclined to think it's not and that there is a reason why this row is behaving this way.

     When I look on the PCB, it appears that the keys are connected in columns so I was unable to just find a short somewhere that could affect an entire row.

    Any help is appreciated.  :thumb:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 26 November 2013, 18:29:14
    Have you checked the solder joints on the I/O Expander?  And on both of the TRRS connectors?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thisMoment on Tue, 26 November 2013, 20:11:56
    Everything looks good as far as I can tell.

    I added a little solder to the trrs and io expnander pins. Same results.

    Edit: Got it! The tab key's cherry mx pin had a little solder flowing to a nearby contact. Strange that it would act the way it did but....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Thu, 28 November 2013, 21:30:45
    Been working on the RGB backlight edition, figured I'd give an update.

    I've fixed a couple of bugs and moved some things around to make life easier, worked on adjusting the Lister case (full and classic), looks like the only thing that needs to be done is to drill/cut one 5mm hole in the upper spacer for the left hand case.

    I've got all the parts in house except the prototype PCB which should arrive from OSHPark in the next few days.

    Here are some renderings I did for fun after changing the Lister case:

    [attachimg=2]
    [attachimg=3]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 28 November 2013, 22:44:09
    Been working on the RGB backlight edition, figured I'd give an update.

    So the backlight will give every key the same color? We may change the colors of the two halves independently, but can not change the backlight of individual keys?

    In your PCB, I see LED connection pads for every key switch. Does this mean that we can add LEDs (single color) for every key, and modify the firmware so that one may control the backlight of each and every key? For example, light up a LED when a key is pressed?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 29 November 2013, 07:24:47

    Single and dual color LEDs come in 2 pin through hole mount packages, typically 3,5,10mm width, for a Cherry switch you really want the 3mm without a collar. In the case of dual color LEDs you have to switch the anode and the cathode to switch colors (so you still need to wires to controller).

    RGB LEDs always have at least 4 pins, this poses a problem since the Cherry switch only has mounting holes for 2 pins, it might be possible to hack this using a custom top since the bottom actually has 4 holes in it. The second problem is that nobody makes RGB LED's in 3mm packages, the smallest I have seen is 5mm.

    Let's say we found an RGB LED and found a way to mount it in a Cherry switch, we now have to worry about power, a single USB connection can supply 500mA @ 5v, some of this is taken by the teensy and the IO expander. Since you have 80 LEDs to deal with you would need to find 5mA LEDs, assuming you would be using resistors to limit the current, note that this is 5mA per color and assumes that you would only ever power one color of the LED at a time. For a full low loss controller circuit without resistors you would be talking about a lot of money and chips.

    Now to control these, simplest would be a single jumper per color per switch (120 jumpers per half), not very practical thought. Probably would want some sort of microcontroller or IO expander that would allow dimming/mixing of colors, but you would need something with at least 120 PWM capable pins.

    Then we need to worry about wiring, assuming ground is available at the switch we still need to route 120 wires per half back to the controller and add 120 resistors to the PCB.



    Having mentioned all of that you can still add the diodes, I use the standard mounting holes to route the optical fibers so you could put a standard diode in there but it would not be connected to anything.

    Been working on the RGB backlight edition, figured I'd give an update.

    So the backlight will give every key the same color? We may change the colors of the two halves independently, but can not change the backlight of individual keys?

    In your PCB, I see LED connection pads for every key switch. Does this mean that we can add LEDs (single color) for every key, and modify the firmware so that one may control the backlight of each and every key? For example, light up a LED when a key is pressed?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 29 November 2013, 08:05:36
    • Correct, you can set the color and intensity for each half independently, all keys show the same color and same intensity per key.
    • Second, you could add individual LEDs but it's not trivial, I want to just quickly review why I chose to use a single LED per half and fibers rather than individual LEDs

    Now I got it, thank you for sharing your ideas and look forward to your awesome work!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yaniv on Sat, 30 November 2013, 07:56:33
    Can I use a Cherry MX "wire bridge" model on  the ergodox PCB? From the PCB layout, I can see that a "wire bridge" switch will shortcut the on board diode, but I can't understand the purpose of this and the implications. Can someone be kind to explain this?

    Thanks,
    Yaniv
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 30 November 2013, 11:42:37
    Can I use a Cherry MX "wire bridge" model on  the ergodox PCB? From the PCB layout, I can see that a "wire bridge" switch will shortcut the on board diode, but I can't understand the purpose of this and the implications. Can someone be kind to explain this?
    Hello. Welcome to the board!

    Short story: If you bypass the diode with a jumper wire then you will get extra unwanted "phantom" key presses ("ghost keys") on certain key combinations with three keys or more.

    Long story: The key switches are organised (logically) in a matrix with each key switch in a junction, connecting a row and a column together when the key is pressed. The microcontroller puts current on each row in turn and senses the columns for key presses on that row. If one key on that row is pressed and another key on the same column as that key is pressed, then current would flow backwards to the second key's row - which wasn't intended. There is therefore also a diode at each switch, stopping current from flowing backwards.
    Cheap keyboards don't have diodes - instead they have sparser matrices, and the microcontroller detects in software when there is even a slight possibility of a ghost key - and blocks further key presses from being registered. Therefore, cheap keyboards don't support certain key combinations of three keys - they are said to have only "2-key rollover".

    The reason for those pads/holes in the PCB is for using diodes inside the Cherry MX switches. Cherry sells switches with diodes in them to manufacturers, and many older keyboards use them. Most newer keyboards with Cherry MX switches have diodes outside the switch.
    The ErgoDox is designed so that you can build it with or without a switch mounting plate. Without a plate, using a diode or jumper wire inside the switch will increase its stability. With a plate, the wire/diode is not necessary.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sat, 30 November 2013, 16:48:12
    Got my ErgoDox all put together! Seems like I am close to having it all working, but I am experiencing a strange problem.

    The right hand side by itself seems to work fine, but as soon as the left hand side is plugged in, it starts inputting keystrokes. Normally, I would assume that just means I did some bad soldering somewhere (this is my first time soldering), but the keys it is inputting are all one row. If I open a text editor and plug in the left hand side, I get many repetitions of "arstd<Tab>" until I push down lots of keys and (I'm assuming) exceed the rollover limit. At this point, no keys will work until it is unplugged. I use Colemak, so this is more or less the home row.

    This seems like it could be a coincidence, but I am more inclined to think it's not and that there is a reason why this row is behaving this way.

     When I look on the PCB, it appears that the keys are connected in columns so I was unable to just find a short somewhere that could affect an entire row.

    Any help is appreciated.  :thumb:

    I got exactly the same issue today. After I de-soldered  my wrongly placed I/O expander IC and put in a new one, the left hand side of my ErgoDox finally come back alive.  However it exhibit the same symptoms described above: the left home row just send scancodes repetitively.

    After several hours of testing, I finally found the culprit: while de-soldering the IC, I put too much flux, and the hot air gun turned these flux into conductive material, creating shorts on the PCB. With these flux removed, my ErgoDox is functioning normally now.  ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yaniv on Sat, 30 November 2013, 22:02:38
    Hi Findecanor,

    Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I do understand that using a 4 point solder will provide a better mechanical bond for each key when not using a plate (this is my case).

    The Cherry MX key I have available in the local market are the one with the "wire bridge" (Model J) or the "inside diode" (model D) - see the part number section in the Cherry MX specification. I am not sure which one are they - I have to buy one and measure it to see if it is and internal diode or wire bridge.

    For Cherry MX part number and model see http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm


    Confirming with you my understanding:
    If it is a diode - it means that I don't have to solder an external diode, right ?
    If it is a wire bridge - I can not use it because it will short the external diode and cancel it - I will have ghosting. right?

    Thank you,
    Yaniv
    Can I use a Cherry MX "wire bridge" model on  the ergodox PCB? From the PCB layout, I can see that a "wire bridge" switch will shortcut the on board diode, but I can't understand the purpose of this and the implications. Can someone be kind to explain this?
    Hello. Welcome to the board!

    Short story: If you bypass the diode with a jumper wire then you will get extra unwanted "phantom" key presses ("ghost keys") on certain key combinations with three keys or more.

    Long story: The key switches are organised (logically) in a matrix with each key switch in a junction, connecting a row and a column together when the key is pressed. The microcontroller puts current on each row in turn and senses the columns for key presses on that row. If one key on that row is pressed and another key on the same column as that key is pressed, then current would flow backwards to the second key's row - which wasn't intended. There is therefore also a diode at each switch, stopping current from flowing backwards.
    Cheap keyboards don't have diodes - instead they have sparser matrices, and the microcontroller detects in software when there is even a slight possibility of a ghost key - and blocks further key presses from being registered. Therefore, cheap keyboards don't support certain key combinations of three keys - they are said to have only "2-key rollover".

    The reason for those pads/holes in the PCB is for using diodes inside the Cherry MX switches. Cherry sells switches with diodes in them to manufacturers, and many older keyboards use them. Most newer keyboards with Cherry MX switches have diodes outside the switch.
    The ErgoDox is designed so that you can build it with or without a switch mounting plate. Without a plate, using a diode or jumper wire inside the switch will increase its stability. With a plate, the wire/diode is not necessary.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sat, 30 November 2013, 23:26:35
    if you use inside diodes you still have to open up each switch to make sure the diodes are in the correct direction and pull them out and flip them if they arent, they are different direction for the left and right hand
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sun, 01 December 2013, 02:31:09
    if you use inside diodes you still have to open up each switch to make sure the diodes are in the correct direction and pull them out and flip them if they arent, they are different direction for the left and right hand

    I used switches with integrated diodes and didn't have to do that. If you compile the firmware yourself, you can select your own diode direction for the left and right half of the keyboard independently, by commenting / uncommenting a couple lines in one of the files.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 01 December 2013, 14:38:38
    If it is a diode - it means that I don't have to solder an external diode, right ?
    Right ... if you are going for the standard layout. If you want 1×1-sized keys instead of 1×2-sized keys for the thumb keys, then you would have to place the diodes for those keys outside.

    If it is a wire bridge - I can not use it because it will short the external diode and cancel it - I will have ghosting. right?
    You could open each switch and remove the wires. Tedious work, though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Sun, 01 December 2013, 14:51:44
    if you use inside diodes you still have to open up each switch to make sure the diodes are in the correct direction and pull them out and flip them if they arent, they are different direction for the left and right hand

    I used switches with integrated diodes and didn't have to do that. If you compile the firmware yourself, you can select your own diode direction for the left and right half of the keyboard independently, by commenting / uncommenting a couple lines in one of the files.

    changing it in the firmware? well played sir.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Thu, 05 December 2013, 11:06:52
    In case anybody was wondering (like I was) which rounded cap nuts to buy for your ErgoDox, I can answer that for you:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009J2WE90/

    Picked up a pack of these (25ct) for $4.50 USD, they fit perfectly. Gonna pick up another pack soon to have enough for my full hand and 2nd classic (from last round). w00t

    (http://i.imgur.com/vAZsiMM.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BliTzKiN on Thu, 05 December 2013, 20:19:27
    Help! I just finished building my Ergodox and it worked fine on my computer, but after removing the cables and plugging them back in later on, my computer showed a message that said the USB device was not recognized. I tried connecting the USB straight into the Teensy and that worked fine, so I assumed it was a bad connection with the mini USB ports, I resoldered that and it worked fine again. But when I removed the cables and reconnected them, the same problem occurred saying that the USB device was not recognized, once again I tried connecting to the Teensy and it worked.

    Does the problem lie with the mini USB connectors? I used a new USB cable when I resoldered it the first time so I doubt there is a problem with that. I checked my solder joints and they look fine to me, does anyone know where the problem may be coming from? Do I need to be downloading a firmware or something? Cause all I did was download the hex file from massdrop's configuration.

    Thanks for reading :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 05 December 2013, 23:08:23
    Sound like an issue with the connector.
    I got the same problem in my first attempt to build the connector
    [attach=1]
    [attach=2]
    [attach=3]
    This connector turned out to be faulty, and the teensy loader can not detect the presence of the Teensy board.
    Direct connection to teensy is working. Thus I have to use another USB connector.

    Maybe you can post some pics of the connector?
    Also, a multimeter is really helpful in finding shorts.

    Help! I just finished building my Ergodox and it worked fine on my computer, but after removing the cables and plugging them back in later on, my computer showed a message that said the USB device was not recognized. I tried connecting the USB straight into the Teensy and that worked fine, so I assumed it was a bad connection with the mini USB ports, I resoldered that and it worked fine again. But when I removed the cables and reconnected them, the same problem occurred saying that the USB device was not recognized, once again I tried connecting to the Teensy and it worked.

    Does the problem lie with the mini USB connectors? I used a new USB cable when I resoldered it the first time so I doubt there is a problem with that. I checked my solder joints and they look fine to me, does anyone know where the problem may be coming from? Do I need to be downloading a firmware or something? Cause all I did was download the hex file from massdrop's configuration.

    Thanks for reading :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 06 December 2013, 23:42:26
    Got my first set of custom ErgoDOX RGB Backlit PCBs, as can be expected there were a couple of bugs/issues.

    I'll try to list them here in hope it might help others ordering prototype PCBs.


    I'm sure I'll discover more issues as I start soldering and testing but at least the boards are good enough to do the testing.

    [attach=1]

    And here is a link to an updated OSHPark project with the issues fixed, I still don't recommend anyone order this thing until it's tested and verified.
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/xx7D5F59
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Talfrey on Sat, 07 December 2013, 07:05:23
    Looking forward to seeing the end result!

    Please, post pictures of the process too!  ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 08 December 2013, 08:46:38
    Got a whole bunch of work done yesterday, thought I would post some pictures.

    I used my toaster oven as an SMD reflow oven, solder paste on the SMD stuff and then baked until crispy.

    I'm not particularly proud of the work but I spent an hour probing with my multimeter and it looks like it all worked out, good solder mask and fresh gold plated pads saved the day.

    The SMD work was easier than I thought but by no means trivial, I think if this would become a kit it would need to include stencils to apply the paste in correct amounts.

    Now for the I2C, software and testing!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Sun, 08 December 2013, 15:02:38
    Can't wait to hear whether or not those interesting parts with SMD pads on the bottom
    soldered up OK with this method.  I've been chicken to use the bottom-pad parts without
    stencils...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yakitysax on Mon, 09 December 2013, 00:36:52
    Got my first set of custom ErgoDOX RGB Backlit PCBs, as can be expected there were a couple of bugs/issues.

    I'll try to list them here in hope it might help others ordering prototype PCBs.

    • Kicad created two separate drill files, one for the NPTH holes and another for the functional (through hole mount, etc), unfortunately OSHPark only processed one by default, NPTH drill file was not processed so all my mechanical holes are missing, I'll just manually drill them for the prototypes but this would have been a disaster for any volume production.
      Luckily for future OSHPark runs I can merge the two Excellon drill files using GerbV (import each file and then export merge them to a new file).
    • My second issue which I already mentioned is that some of my ground pads were not connected to the ground plane, this is due to re-importing from the schematics and redrawing the filled areas, unfortunately this can clear connection settings from existing modules.
    • The third issue that I also mentioned before is that the USB connector uses plated slots, this unfortunately is not supported by OSHPark, they replaced it with a small throughhole, it could probably have been
      replaced by a larger through hole enabling the whole connector to fit but alas.
    • One of the optional switch positions in the outermost column was still wrong.

    I'm sure I'll discover more issues as I start soldering and testing but at least the boards are good enough to do the testing.

    (Attachment Link)

    And here is a link to an updated OSHPark project with the issues fixed, I still don't recommend anyone order this thing until it's tested and verified.
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/xx7D5F59
    That purple PCB is hot, especially if I make a Ghost in the Shell inspired themed Ergodox that uses dark purple, light purple, and dark grey colors.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Mon, 09 December 2013, 06:23:29
    Got my first set of custom ErgoDOX RGB Backlit PCBs, as can be expected there were a couple of bugs/issues.

    I'll try to list them here in hope it might help others ordering prototype PCBs.

    • Kicad created two separate drill files, one for the NPTH holes and another for the functional (through hole mount, etc), unfortunately OSHPark only processed one by default, NPTH drill file was not processed so all my mechanical holes are missing, I'll just manually drill them for the prototypes but this would have been a disaster for any volume production.
      Luckily for future OSHPark runs I can merge the two Excellon drill files using GerbV (import each file and then export merge them to a new file).
    • My second issue which I already mentioned is that some of my ground pads were not connected to the ground plane, this is due to re-importing from the schematics and redrawing the filled areas, unfortunately this can clear connection settings from existing modules.
    • The third issue that I also mentioned before is that the USB connector uses plated slots, this unfortunately is not supported by OSHPark, they replaced it with a small throughhole, it could probably have been
      replaced by a larger through hole enabling the whole connector to fit but alas.
    • One of the optional switch positions in the outermost column was still wrong.

    I'm sure I'll discover more issues as I start soldering and testing but at least the boards are good enough to do the testing.

    (Attachment Link)

    And here is a link to an updated OSHPark project with the issues fixed, I still don't recommend anyone order this thing until it's tested and verified.
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/xx7D5F59
    That purple PCB is hot, especially if I make a Ghost in the Shell inspired themed Ergodox that uses dark purple, light purple, and dark grey colors.

    I'm not much of an artist, an engineer perhaps but the only times I make something pretty is when I design something functional that then happens to be pretty due to it's functional qualities.

    Why don't you design a Ghost in the Shell theme? Kicad has a bitmap to component converter,  you should be able to design an awesome silkscreen with some care and thought.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Tue, 10 December 2013, 19:57:56
    Another update.


    If anyone can suggest a handy 90° light pipe or if there are any I2C superstars out there I'd appreciate comments/suggestions.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Wed, 11 December 2013, 08:41:12
    Looking for some advice here: I've had my ErgoDox since August and have loved it, and recently got the aluminum top layer for it for the looks; well, this past week I came to my desk and got a static shock when I touched the keyboard and it stopped being recognized by windows.

    I disconnected and reconnected it and it was fine, but now I am finding that every computer I connect to I get the dreaded "USB Device Unrecognized" and device manager says "Windows has stopped this device because it has reported problems. (Code 43)". What's weird is that if I connect through a USB hub, it works fine, but not directly to a machine. Additionally, the teensy loader will not recognize it over direct USB either, but only through a hub.

    I've tried:

    It seems like there really is a problem with USB on the teensy; any thoughts on how I can diagnose and fix it? Or other things to try? For now I can at least use it with a hub.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Wed, 11 December 2013, 09:06:02
    You likely delivered a crippling static blow to the teensy.

    time to cough up $20 and replace it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Wed, 11 December 2013, 12:04:04
    • I2C is being a real pane in the ass, I seem to be able to talk to everything and anything except the darned LED controller, which I'm able to talk to but every time I fetch a register from it it just returns FF regardless of which register I'm reading, that's quite strange.
    Are you able to control the thing?
    0xFF sounds like it isn't trying to respond.

    Are you sure that the address bits are set correctly? I've seen some datasheets give the address already <<1, while others do not.

    Are you sending a start, addr+R sequence?

    Have you set the device's read pointer to the correct address before issuing the start, addr+R command?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Wed, 11 December 2013, 12:18:53
    I'ts strange, I was using the Wire library with Sketch to prototype and I think it might be a bug in the library, I'm rewriting from scratch in C with better debug capabilities to show actual signals as they are put on the wire.

    I've read the datasheet 10 times and I'm pretty sure I understand it and unless the chip is malfunctioning (which I doubt since it drives the LEDs fine) all the evidence is pointing to the library.

    I was able to find the chip on the bus and it ACKed correctly, I also put a second I2C device on the same physical bus and was able to communicate with it without any issues.

    I was also able to send it a read request (write the register and then read) with the register and from what I could see it responded correctly except all the data was just FF.

    I'm able to control the LED's with PWM signals but without the I2C I can't control the brightness, current, or detect errors.

    I'll post again once I have a C implementation with more debugging info.

    • I2C is being a real pane in the ass, I seem to be able to talk to everything and anything except the darned LED controller, which I'm able to talk to but every time I fetch a register from it it just returns FF regardless of which register I'm reading, that's quite strange.
    Are you able to control the thing?
    0xFF sounds like it isn't trying to respond.

    Are you sure that the address bits are set correctly? I've seen some datasheets give the address already <<1, while others do not.

    Are you sending a start, addr+R sequence?

    Have you set the device's read pointer to the correct address before issuing the start, addr+R command?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Wed, 11 December 2013, 18:15:53
    You likely delivered a crippling static blow to the teensy.

    time to cough up $20 and replace it.

    Yeah, I suppose you are right, just strange it works fine through a USB hub. I went and ordered a new one... I'm just not looking forward to the desoldering; I've got solder wick and it never works like I want it to. Maybe I'll try a pump this time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Wed, 11 December 2013, 22:47:00
    might be best to clip each pin to cut the old one out... maybe cut and remove one pin at a time... I've never tried the serious solder removal guns like the hakko 808... not sure if they are up to the task on their own...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 13 December 2013, 02:14:14
    I’m putting together an Ergodox, and would like to put the LEDs somewhere visible [e.g. up at the top] instead of buried inside a solid black keycap.

    One option is supposed to be swapping the positions of the LEDs and the resistors, but I can’t find any pictures/descriptions online of exactly how that is done. Where exactly should I be putting the resistors? The holes for the LED leads are very close together, so I guess I have to attach at least one end of the resistor by bending its lead back to fit, or perhaps via a tiny bit of patch cable?

    Does anyone have other advice about this?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 13 December 2013, 03:07:51
    The position of the resistors does not really matter as long as they form a part of the circuit with the LEDs.

    Assuming you are using the Lister case your biggest problem is going to be locating the LEDs within the acrylic plate, you basically would have to drill/route holes/tracks into the center plate to make room for the LEDs.

    If you are willing to do this, I would suggest the easiest MOD would be to replace the LED resitors with the LEDs and vice versa.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 13 December 2013, 03:47:24
    Oh, nevermind. I see, one of the in-switch LED holes just connects to ground. Okay, got it. Thanks!

    I think I'm going to hook it up without using the LED circuits at all, for the moment, and then play around with a separate teensy & some LEDs on a breadboard until I figure out what I want to do.

    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Fri, 13 December 2013, 08:44:23
    Yup, that sounds like fun!

    Oh, nevermind. I see, one of the in-switch LED holes just connects to ground. Okay, got it. Thanks!

    I think I'm going to hook it up without using the LED circuits at all, for the moment, and then play around with a separate teensy & some LEDs on a breadboard until I figure out what I want to do.

    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 13 December 2013, 18:30:41
    Sorry for noob question but are the switches PCB or plate mounted?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: balanar on Fri, 13 December 2013, 18:46:14
    The switches are PCB mounted on mine and several others that I've seen. I don't know if a plate mounted version exists or if there are plans for it though. Someone more knowledgeable should answer that.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 13 December 2013, 18:51:26
    The switches are PCB mounted on mine and several others that I've seen. I don't know if a plate mounted version exists or if there are plans for it though. Someone more knowledgeable should answer that.

    Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of making a dirt cheap ergodox case out of legos lying around and not missing out on a plate makes the incentive higher
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: balanar on Fri, 13 December 2013, 19:04:22
    The switches are PCB mounted on mine and several others that I've seen. I don't know if a plate mounted version exists or if there are plans for it though. Someone more knowledgeable should answer that.

    Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of making a dirt cheap ergodox case out of legos lying around and not missing out on a plate makes the incentive higher


    That would be something to see! There's a thread with Lego Poker cases people made around here somewhere you can look at for inspiration. Can't seem to find it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sat, 14 December 2013, 06:09:58
    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)

    This idea is cool!  :thumb:
    I just order a few RGB LEDs, will test and see how it worked
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Sat, 14 December 2013, 13:22:50
    Sorry for noob question but are the switches PCB or plate mounted?

    As far as what I can tell from pics on massdrop, Ergodox PCBs have holes for legs of PCB mounted switches so both type of switches should work fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sat, 14 December 2013, 22:16:26
    Got to spend a couple of hours debugging tonight, turns out it was a bug in the I2C/TWI library when dealing with I2C Repeated Starts!

    Thanks to Scott (OldDataHands) for giving a hand, it was his source code that lead me to the issue.

    Now for the fun part, I'll rig something up tomorrow, I'll try for a video demo of the whole thing if time permits.


    I'ts strange, I was using the Wire library with Sketch to prototype and I think it might be a bug in the library, I'm rewriting from scratch in C with better debug capabilities to show actual signals as they are put on the wire.

    I've read the datasheet 10 times and I'm pretty sure I understand it and unless the chip is malfunctioning (which I doubt since it drives the LEDs fine) all the evidence is pointing to the library.

    I was able to find the chip on the bus and it ACKed correctly, I also put a second I2C device on the same physical bus and was able to communicate with it without any issues.

    I was also able to send it a read request (write the register and then read) with the register and from what I could see it responded correctly except all the data was just FF.

    I'm able to control the LED's with PWM signals but without the I2C I can't control the brightness, current, or detect errors.

    I'll post again once I have a C implementation with more debugging info.

    • I2C is being a real pane in the ass, I seem to be able to talk to everything and anything except the darned LED controller, which I'm able to talk to but every time I fetch a register from it it just returns FF regardless of which register I'm reading, that's quite strange.
    Are you able to control the thing?
    0xFF sounds like it isn't trying to respond.

    Are you sure that the address bits are set correctly? I've seen some datasheets give the address already <<1, while others do not.

    Are you sending a start, addr+R sequence?

    Have you set the device's read pointer to the correct address before issuing the start, addr+R command?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Sat, 14 December 2013, 22:39:52
    The switches are PCB mounted on mine and several others that I've seen. I don't know if a plate mounted version exists or if there are plans for it though. Someone more knowledgeable should answer that.

    Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of making a dirt cheap ergodox case out of legos lying around and not missing out on a plate makes the incentive higher


    That would be something to see! There's a thread with Lego Poker cases people made around here somewhere you can look at for inspiration. Can't seem to find it.

    I know where it is and that provided some inspiration.

    Only trouble is for the thumb cluster, its irregular shape is foreign to 90 degree legos
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Air tree on Sun, 15 December 2013, 08:23:31
    I was asleep on the last quick drop. I guess i will have to wait another 1-2 months for another drop.
    (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-001.gif)




    More suffering on this laptop scissor switch keyboard (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/1b38f9e2.gif)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Mon, 16 December 2013, 09:29:46
    Progress report on the back-light work.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:18:15
    I was asleep on the last quick drop. I guess i will have to wait another 1-2 months for another drop.
    Show Image
    (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-001.gif)





    More suffering on this laptop scissor switch keyboard
    Show Image
    (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/1b38f9e2.gif)


    quick drop?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:22:33
    I was asleep on the last quick drop. I guess i will have to wait another 1-2 months for another drop.
    Show Image
    (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-001.gif)





    More suffering on this laptop scissor switch keyboard
    Show Image
    (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/1b38f9e2.gif)


    quick drop?

    you don't use quickdrop? where have you been?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 16 December 2013, 15:26:07
    I was asleep on the last quick drop. I guess i will have to wait another 1-2 months for another drop.
    Show Image
    (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-001.gif)





    More suffering on this laptop scissor switch keyboard
    Show Image
    (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/1b38f9e2.gif)


    quick drop?

    you don't use quickdrop? where have you been?

    I don't know where i have been
    i must see this
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 17 December 2013, 11:28:17
    The switches are PCB mounted on mine and several others that I've seen. I don't know if a plate mounted version exists or if there are plans for it though. Someone more knowledgeable should answer that.

    Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of making a dirt cheap ergodox case out of legos lying around and not missing out on a plate makes the incentive higher


    That would be something to see! There's a thread with Lego Poker cases people made around here somewhere you can look at for inspiration. Can't seem to find it.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40251.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jdc0589 on Tue, 17 December 2013, 11:35:35
    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...

    I know know shapeways has the 3d printed version, and I honestly may end up going that route for simplicity (though I might only order the tops and make my own bottoms from acrylic, which seems fairly easy). Just looking for options.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Tue, 17 December 2013, 11:52:33
    I would also really like to know if there is a good place to source them, I just asked a similar question in the IC for Proper ErgoDOX case thread and listed the options I know of to source ErgoDOX cases.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47408.msg1160289#msg1160289


    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jdc0589 on Tue, 17 December 2013, 12:01:40
    Hmm, good to know. I'm checking out Ponoko now, supposedly they have a 2d laser cutting service.

    Edit: except their website sucks and it just spins for minutes when trying to add a design....

    I would also really like to know if there is a good place to source them, I just asked a similar question in the IC for Proper ErgoDOX case thread and listed the options I know of to source ErgoDOX cases.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47408.msg1160289#msg1160289


    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jaymatter on Tue, 17 December 2013, 18:25:23
    Progress report on the back-light work.
    • I'm successfully reading and writing to the LM3549 LED Driver via I2C, currently working on building out a library to make all the functions easily available.
    • For some reason the green diode won't light up, everything measures fine, voltages are good, no shorts, it does require higher voltages than the others to drive it, I'll figure it out later.
    • I'm dealing with some resonance issues with the inductor, there is an annoying hum at some intensities when it's powering LEDs.
    • The through holes for the fibers are a bit to tight, I'll change them to allow more clearance.
    • I've also been thinking about the effectiveness issues with the light pipe, I'm wondering if I can turn it into an inside out mirror by "silvering" it like a mirror, hence any light that would otherwise escape should be reflected until cough by the light pipe/fibers.
    • I think the design could also use some mechanical holes to hold down the fibers

    This project looks really awesome. Can't wait to see where it goes!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yakitysax on Wed, 18 December 2013, 07:57:32
    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)

    This idea is cool!  :thumb:
    I just order a few RGB LEDs, will test and see how it worked
    I was previously unaware of RGB LEDs, and thought that I would be able to at most represent 8 states with the 3 LEDs (2^3) without resorting to something like morse code, however with these I will be able to represent k^3 states, where k is the number of unique colors each LED can display, very cool!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 19 December 2013, 00:35:17
    RGB led has 4 pins, therefore you can use 1 RGB led in place of the 3 leds without much modification of the circuit. Each signal will now control one color.

    [attach=1]

    If you only use on/off states, there will still be 2^3 color combinations. It's like you use 3 individual leds, each with a different color.

    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)

    This idea is cool!  :thumb:
    I just order a few RGB LEDs, will test and see how it worked
    I was previously unaware of RGB LEDs, and thought that I would be able to at most represent 8 states with the 3 LEDs (2^3) without resorting to something like morse code, however with these I will be able to represent k^3 states, where k is the number of unique colors each LED can display, very cool!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:01:13
    Wired one RGB LED to my ErgoDox, it works, but still need to modify the firmware to fully exploit its functions.

    It would take too much effort to desolder the original leds and resistors, so I cut one end of the resistors and connected the led pins
    [attach=1]
    It's ugly but works.  ;D

    I scraped the back side of the PCB and connected the ground pin there.
    [attach=2]

    The blue light is on... Now, what can I do with the RGB led?
    [attach=3]

    Video showing ErgoDox booting with TMK firmware installed
    https://plus.google.com/106952917630137220583/posts/TV2paRH4cDo

    In theory, I should be able to hook up a multicolored RGB LED as part of those 3 circuits and mod the keyboard firmware to set it to arbitrary colors, right? That sounds more fun than just 3 separate LEDs. :-)

    This idea is cool!  :thumb:
    I just order a few RGB LEDs, will test and see how it worked
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:30:30
    You likely delivered a crippling static blow to the teensy.

    time to cough up $20 and replace it.

    Yeah, I suppose you are right, just strange it works fine through a USB hub. I went and ordered a new one... I'm just not looking forward to the desoldering; I've got solder wick and it never works like I want it to. Maybe I'll try a pump this time.

    Looking for a bit more advice here: I tested the new teensy and confirmed USB works as expected, but before I solder it in, I want to make sure I don't go and shock that one too. I've been trying a few things, and I've found:

    1. I bought an anti-static pad to sit under the keyboard, but it doesn't seem to help if I happen to touch the keyboard first.
    2. I thought the problem might be that the USB components are so close to the top aluminum layer, so I put some electrical tape between them, but it still zaps it (I'm testing with the semi-functional old chip)
    3. clipping alligator clips to it and a section of metal on my desk that goes to the floor seems to re-route the shock away from the chip, but it's a bit of a pain in the neck.

    Anyone found other solutions to this issue that are perhaps more elegant? I don't want to give up the aluminum because of this issue...

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Fri, 20 December 2013, 04:52:20
    I've just finished assembling my ergodox. Only 3 keys seem to be failing; s, f, and end, so I'm pretty happy with that considering how little I've done with electronics in the past.

    I have a dumb question though (to which I'm sure I know the answer, but I'd rather ask and be completely sure): The teensy that I got with the package already had its legs attached, and they're too long to fit into the case properly. Is there any harm in me cutting them short (near to where the solder is)?

    Edit
    Nevermind. I found the answer in the video that I was working from. Cutting the legs short is fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Fri, 20 December 2013, 21:30:17
    Looking for a bit more advice here: I tested the new teensy and confirmed USB works as expected, but before I solder it in, I want to make sure I don't go and shock that one too.

    Have a read through the materials linked to from here:
    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=340899

    They are:
    http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-Teaching-modules/A041-Human-body-model-and-electrostatic-discharge-ESD.pdf
    http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/sbeebe.pdf
    http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN10753.pdf

    Some SWAGs on my part:

    Perhaps you can make a high-resistance (500kOhm?) connection to from the plate to GND,
    as well as a capacitive connection with a small value (perhaps 4.7nF) 0805 cap.
    The capacitance will drop the peak voltage, pass the pulse through to GND,
    the resistor will drain the charge away.
    Maybe you can put one of their fancy ESD diodes into play as a way to ensure that your
    discharge goes to gnd...

    Maybe you can turn on the humidifier!



    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 20 December 2013, 22:02:25
    Looking for a bit more advice here: I tested the new teensy and confirmed USB works as expected, but before I solder it in, I want to make sure I don't go and shock that one too.

    Have a read through the materials linked to from here:
    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=340899

    They are:
    http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-Teaching-modules/A041-Human-body-model-and-electrostatic-discharge-ESD.pdf
    http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/sbeebe.pdf
    http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN10753.pdf

    Some SWAGs on my part:

    Perhaps you can make a high-resistance (500kOhm?) connection to from the plate to GND,
    as well as a capacitive connection with a small value (perhaps 4.7nF) 0805 cap.
    The capacitance will drop the peak voltage, pass the pulse through to GND,
    the resistor will drain the charge away.
    Maybe you can put one of their fancy ESD diodes into play as a way to ensure that your
    discharge goes to gnd...

    Maybe you can turn on the humidier!

    How about static eliminator keychain?
    http://www.lordbenex.com/benex/products_3.php?product_id=1265439966&area_idtt=1260782691&area_namett=Keychain&area_id=1265437738&area_name=Key%20Chain

    This keychain flashes while there're statics remain. You may rip the components and connect to the case.
    Below is a video showing the keychain in action:
    http://attach2.mobile01.com/videoplayer.swf?d=201012&v=1420249-22eb38306b95822622cf4f8d31ec69f9


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Fri, 20 December 2013, 22:54:53
    Looking for a bit more advice here: I tested the new teensy and confirmed USB works as expected, but before I solder it in, I want to make sure I don't go and shock that one too.

    Have a read through the materials linked to from here:
    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=340899

    They are:
    http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-Teaching-modules/A041-Human-body-model-and-electrostatic-discharge-ESD.pdf
    http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/sbeebe.pdf
    http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN10753.pdf

    Some SWAGs on my part:

    Perhaps you can make a high-resistance (500kOhm?) connection to from the plate to GND,
    as well as a capacitive connection with a small value (perhaps 4.7nF) 0805 cap.
    The capacitance will drop the peak voltage, pass the pulse through to GND,
    the resistor will drain the charge away.
    Maybe you can put one of their fancy ESD diodes into play as a way to ensure that your
    discharge goes to gnd...

    Maybe you can turn on the humidier!





    I had to look up "SWAG", that is a fantastic acronym :D

    Thanks for the help ODH! I like the idea of the "fancy" ESD (and a humidifier is not an option currently), so I'm ordering a few from digikey to try out. This PDF makes it pretty clear how to wire it too:
    http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/Electronics_Technical/Application_Guides/Littelfuse_ESD_System_Level_Guide.pdf

    So, I guess I'll report back on how that goes... only trouble now will be to figure out how to solder it since I don't have pads for it. I'll probably just have to hack it with wires instead.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheHydroMule on Sat, 21 December 2013, 23:58:33
    Is the teensy 3.0 usable for an ergodox? I've got a friend that works with electronics and said he'll give me one if I need it. So I would think about ordering a PCB and the other components, depending on if that is usable or not. Also can I just use the left side without using the right side of the ergodox?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sun, 22 December 2013, 03:02:48
    Is the teensy 3.0 usable for an ergodox? [...] Also can I just use the left side without using the right side of the ergodox?

    No, because the breakout board is of a different configuration, logic chip differences notwithstanding (the 3.0 is an ARM or something -- it's been discussed elsewhere) so it wouldn't actually fit into the PCB.

    I think it's the reverse ... the RH side has the uC (Teensy 2.0) and that's what talks to the PC. The left side has an I/O expander but no way to talk to the PC so you can disconnect the left side and the right running.

    There are folks however, that have put the teensy on the left so they could experiment with making a one-handed gaming "tenkey" of macros for gaming or what have you. That too has been discussed elsewhere. In 'keyboards' I think.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheHydroMule on Sun, 22 December 2013, 04:39:34
    Alright thanks I'll have a look around
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: darkfire32 on Mon, 23 December 2013, 23:12:19
    Don't know if anyone else has had this problem or if this was reported ago but I have a problem with the ergodox code that massdrop gave. Whenever I press the 7 key on the keyboard it spits out "8-0=8-9=08-" instead of seven. I've circumventing this through using a numpad layer. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 24 December 2013, 00:23:55
    Don't know if anyone else has had this problem or if this was reported ago but I have a problem with the ergodox code that massdrop gave. Whenever I press the 7 key on the keyboard it spits out "8-0=8-9=08-" instead of seven. I've circumventing this through using a numpad layer. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Thanks.

    You could try this old build of rev-1 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bbol6fkvydmtmg/QLudrdEyc9) if you like.  If the behavior persists, it's most likely a hardware problem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: darkfire32 on Tue, 24 December 2013, 01:50:29
    Don't know if anyone else has had this problem or if this was reported ago but I have a problem with the ergodox code that massdrop gave. Whenever I press the 7 key on the keyboard it spits out "8-0=8-9=08-" instead of seven. I've circumventing this through using a numpad layer. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Thanks.

    You could try this old build of rev-1 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bbol6fkvydmtmg/QLudrdEyc9) if you like.  If the behavior persists, it's most likely a hardware problem.

    I tried the old build but it didn't work. I have noticed now that if I turn on number lock then my 7 key types out 09=8-=. I guess I'll just keep number lock turned off, not like there's a number pad to this keyboard. But because it is acting this way, I don't know if it is a hardware problem. I should also say that my 7 key is at the position of the numlock key on the old build but I'm using a different layout from the massdrop customizer, don't know if that would cause a problem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 24 December 2013, 12:54:33
    Don't know if anyone else has had this problem or if this was reported ago but I have a problem with the ergodox code that massdrop gave. Whenever I press the 7 key on the keyboard it spits out "8-0=8-9=08-" instead of seven. I've circumventing this through using a numpad layer. Does anyone have any experience with this problem? Thanks.

    You could try this old build of rev-1 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bbol6fkvydmtmg/QLudrdEyc9) if you like.  If the behavior persists, it's most likely a hardware problem.

    I tried the old build but it didn't work. I have noticed now that if I turn on number lock then my 7 key types out 09=8-=. I guess I'll just keep number lock turned off, not like there's a number pad to this keyboard. But because it is acting this way, I don't know if it is a hardware problem. I should also say that my 7 key is at the position of the numlock key on the old build but I'm using a different layout from the massdrop customizer, don't know if that would cause a problem.

    No, the different layouts shouldn't be causing any problems at all -- and the fact that the old build of the firmware doesn't fix the problem confirms it.  Every once in a while someone posts with a single key generating multiple key presses (which would naturally type different things depending on whether the number pad or any other layer was active).  It always ends up being a short somewhere... I forget if it's more commonly between keys, or between pins on the Teensy.  I'd suggest breaking out the multimeter and poking around a bit -- or, if it's easier, skipping that and just reflowing *all* suspicious joints.  Hope you can get it working :) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zflamewing on Fri, 27 December 2013, 18:16:42
    I've become interested in the Ergodox and after some poking around it looks like I can get everything I'd need to make one minus the case for under $150.00.  I'm still searching for a reasonably priced plate and case but so far it's looking like the set from safeway for 200 is about all I'm finding unless I wait for the next massdrop GB.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  I'd prefer something in the full hand design ideally, but I'm not too picky thus far.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 30 December 2013, 13:46:51
    Looking for a bit more advice here: I tested the new teensy and confirmed USB works as expected, but before I solder it in, I want to make sure I don't go and shock that one too.

    Have a read through the materials linked to from here:
    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=340899

    They are:
    http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Course-Teaching-modules/A041-Human-body-model-and-electrostatic-discharge-ESD.pdf
    http://www-tcad.stanford.edu/tcad/pubs/theses/sbeebe.pdf
    http://www.nxp.com/documents/application_note/AN10753.pdf

    Some SWAGs on my part:

    Perhaps you can make a high-resistance (500kOhm?) connection to from the plate to GND,
    as well as a capacitive connection with a small value (perhaps 4.7nF) 0805 cap.
    The capacitance will drop the peak voltage, pass the pulse through to GND,
    the resistor will drain the charge away.
    Maybe you can put one of their fancy ESD diodes into play as a way to ensure that your
    discharge goes to gnd...

    Maybe you can turn on the humidier!





    would this be reliable without soldering to the aluminum.. as in you just sand a portion of the bottom side, take off some of the anodization, and tape some wires to it..

    As I recall to bond to aluminum you'd need that high heat flux and a torch ...  that might warp the thin aluminum plates or discolor it?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 30 December 2013, 14:11:37
    I've become interested in the Ergodox and after some poking around it looks like I can get everything I'd need to make one minus the case for under $150.00.  I'm still searching for a reasonably priced plate and case but so far it's looking like the set from safeway for 200 is about all I'm finding unless I wait for the next massdrop GB.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  I'd prefer something in the full hand design ideally, but I'm not too picky thus far.

    Personally, I'd wait till the next massdrop buy if you really want a case.  Alternately, you might be able to find someone willing to laser cut a single litster style case for you for a little less than the 3D printed case costs (or perhaps not, I'm really not sure).  If you might be able to do without the case (with PCB mounted switches) I'd definitely give that option some thought.  I've been using my causeless prototype (with yoga mat underneath for stability and to protect my desk) for probably a year or two now, and it's still working great :) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jdc0589 on Sat, 04 January 2014, 17:20:37
    I would also really like to know if there is a good place to source them, I just asked a similar question in the IC for Proper ErgoDOX case thread and listed the options I know of to source ErgoDOX cases.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47408.msg1160289#msg1160289


    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...

    FYI, I ended up getting my case done by Craig at laser-4-u.com
    It came out perfect, but was a bit expensive ($90 including material). That said, it sounded like subsequent cases could be done for ~$50 each. Turnaround time was one day, so that was nice.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 05 January 2014, 01:09:39
    @jdc0589:
    Good to know that acrylic cases can be had for a fairly reasonable price.  Back during the first run when Massdrop was letting people special order only pieces of kits (which I fully took advantage of :) ), the cost-to-customer for an acrylic case seemed to be around $80.

    @everyone:
    Rounded the corners of my acrylic case today, if anyone's interested!  Courtesy of my Dad's tools and experience :) .  It may seem like a little mod, but it makes a huge difference.

    [attachimg=1]

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zflamewing on Sun, 05 January 2014, 14:35:33
    I would also really like to know if there is a good place to source them, I just asked a similar question in the IC for Proper ErgoDOX case thread and listed the options I know of to source ErgoDOX cases.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47408.msg1160289#msg1160289


    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...

    FYI, I ended up getting my case done by Craig at laser-4-u.com
    It came out perfect, but was a bit expensive ($90 including material). That said, it sounded like subsequent cases could be done for ~$50 each. Turnaround time was one day, so that was nice.

    Was that the classic or the full hand?  Shapeways wants close to 200 or a bit more for the basic 3D printed case Dox designed.

    90 sounds better than 200 but if a few us went in and could drop the price further that might be something to consider.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jdc0589 on Sun, 05 January 2014, 15:32:37
    I would also really like to know if there is a good place to source them, I just asked a similar question in the IC for Proper ErgoDOX case thread and listed the options I know of to source ErgoDOX cases.

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47408.msg1160289#msg1160289


    Does anyone have a reliable source for the standard acrylic cases? Doesn't look like anyone sells them on their own reliably, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
    I can get them custom cut from the cad files, but I'm sure that would wind up costing a lot more...

    FYI, I ended up getting my case done by Craig at laser-4-u.com
    It came out perfect, but was a bit expensive ($90 including material). That said, it sounded like subsequent cases could be done for ~$50 each. Turnaround time was one day, so that was nice.

    Was that the classic or the full hand?  Shapeways wants close to 200 or a bit more for the basic 3D printed case Dox designed.

    90 sounds better than 200 but if a few us went in and could drop the price further that might be something to consider.

    Classic. I'm going to make some adjustable risers at some point, which will be a lot easier with the smaller footprint of the classic design.
    Hell, unless I was just quoted special prices for some reason, I bet we could get it under $50. I told them I might need two, and was told the second one would only be $50 if I wanted it (they factor set up cost or something in to the first one). I decided against ordering two right off though since I was unsure if I would really even like the ergodox (I love the **** out it though).

    On an unrelated note, does anyone have an idea why I cant get [L0] , clear layer stack, to work? All the other layer manipulation bindings work fine, but L0 does nothing. I'm using the massdrop configuration tool; haven't had issues with any of the other button functions.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 09 January 2014, 06:25:58
    @jdc0589:
    Good to know that acrylic cases can be had for a fairly reasonable price.  Back during the first run when Massdrop was letting people special order only pieces of kits (which I fully took advantage of :) ), the cost-to-customer for an acrylic case seemed to be around $80.

    @everyone:
    Rounded the corners of my acrylic case today, if anyone's interested!  Courtesy of my Dad's tools and experience :) .  It may seem like a little mod, but it makes a huge difference.

    (Attachment Link)



    so fancy..(http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-031.gif)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: balanar on Wed, 15 January 2014, 00:42:26
    Hi all, got a question here.

    Currently Litster's ErgoDox Classic case comprises of the following parts:

    Layer 1 Top       - 3mm
    Layer 2 Spacer  - 5mm
    Layer 3 Plate     - 5mm
    Layer 4 Spacer  - 5mm

    Layer 5 Bottom  - 3mm

    What would I need to take note of if I were to replace the 3 5mm pieces of acrylic with 5 3mm pieces? Would anyone here be willing to create the .dxf files required if changes in the design are necessary?

    I am looking into getting acrylic cases made with different colours but planning to run very few numbers at first. 5mm costs more than 3mm so using only the latter is one way to bring costs down. I don't have access to my own ErgoDox at the moment hence the question here.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 15 January 2014, 01:53:33
    Hi all, got a question here.

    Currently Litster's ErgoDox Classic case comprises of the following parts:

    Layer 1 Top       - 3mm
    Layer 2 Spacer  - 5mm
    Layer 3 Plate     - 5mm
    Layer 4 Spacer  - 5mm

    Layer 5 Bottom  - 3mm

    What would I need to take note of if I were to replace the 3 5mm pieces of acrylic with 5 3mm pieces? Would anyone here be willing to create the .dxf files required if changes in the design are necessary?

    I am looking into getting acrylic cases made with different colours but planning to run very few numbers at first. 5mm costs more than 3mm so using only the latter is one way to bring costs down. I don't have access to my own ErgoDox at the moment hence the question here.

    I recently got a case cut in 3mm sheets and this is how it must be:
    Layer 1 Top
    Layer 2 Spacer
    Layer 2 Spacer*
    Layer 3 Plate*
    Layer 4 Spacer
    Layer 4 Spacer
    Layer 4 Spacer (Depending on exact thickness of the acrylic sheet)
    Layer 5 Bottom

    I know it is ~3mm thicker than the litster case, however since you need atleast 8.5mm clearance from the top of the switch to the bottom and many at times, the acrylic sheet for 3mm vary from 2.7-3.3, it can be very tight with only two "Layer 4 Spacer", thus you might need 3.

    You will need two "Layer 2 Spacer" above the plate for the Teensy.

    Layers marked with * need notches where the connectors go. This notch is already present on Layer 3, but you will have to edit it for Layer 2.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: balanar on Wed, 15 January 2014, 02:37:42
    Hi all, got a question here.

    Currently Litster's ErgoDox Classic case comprises of the following parts:

    Layer 1 Top       - 3mm
    Layer 2 Spacer  - 5mm
    Layer 3 Plate     - 5mm
    Layer 4 Spacer  - 5mm

    Layer 5 Bottom  - 3mm

    What would I need to take note of if I were to replace the 3 5mm pieces of acrylic with 5 3mm pieces? Would anyone here be willing to create the .dxf files required if changes in the design are necessary?

    I am looking into getting acrylic cases made with different colours but planning to run very few numbers at first. 5mm costs more than 3mm so using only the latter is one way to bring costs down. I don't have access to my own ErgoDox at the moment hence the question here.

    I recently got a case cut in 3mm sheets and this is how it must be:
    Layer 1 Top
    Layer 2 Spacer
    Layer 2 Spacer*
    Layer 3 Plate*
    Layer 4 Spacer
    Layer 4 Spacer
    Layer 4 Spacer (Depending on exact thickness of the acrylic sheet)
    Layer 5 Bottom

    I know it is ~3mm thicker than the litster case, however since you need atleast 8.5mm clearance from the top of the switch to the bottom and many at times, the acrylic sheet for 3mm vary from 2.7-3.3, it can be very tight with only two "Layer 4 Spacer", thus you might need 3.

    You will need two "Layer 2 Spacer" above the plate for the Teensy.

    Layers marked with * need notches where the connectors go. This notch is already present on Layer 3, but you will have to edit it for Layer 2.

    Thank you for your reply MOZ!

    So please correct me if I missed out anything but in essence, for a case purely made out of 3 layers to work, I will need another 'layer 2 spacer' with no changes except to add in the notches for the connectors similar to those that exist on layer 3.

    This in itself should be fine unless the tolerances vary as you mentioned. In that scenario, I should have another layer 4 spacer.

    Any other changes required at all? Would you be open to sharing the .dxf file for the 'updated' layer 2 spacer with notches that you used?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 15 January 2014, 03:13:50
    For a case purely made out of 3mm layers to work, you will need:
    Another 'Layer 2 Spacer' with no changes except to add in the notches for the connectors similar to those that exist on layer 3.
    Another 'Layer 4 Spacer' with no changes at all
    Another 'Layer 4 Spacer' if there is variance in tolerance as I had mentioned

    Besides getting the 5 layers cutout as is.

    Let me find the edit file and post it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: balanar on Wed, 15 January 2014, 10:28:56
    That would be absolutely fantastic! Thanks MOZ!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MerelyRey on Fri, 17 January 2014, 04:07:19
    Got my first set of custom ErgoDOX RGB Backlit PCBs, as can be expected there were a couple of bugs/issues.

    [...]

    And here is a link to an updated OSHPark project with the issues fixed, I still don't recommend anyone order this thing until it's tested and verified.
    http://oshpark.com/shared_projects/xx7D5F59

    Thank you jalli for the great work,

    quite interested I am looking at the development of a backlit version. From my perspective we now have a good prototype. However I see two issues which may get tackled with the next version:
    - From my experience, most keyboards with backlit cherry keys have the keys installed in a way that the LED is on top. This is done because most (or all?) keycaps that are partially transparent have this "window" also on top. In the ErgoDOX PCBs the keys need to get placed rotated resulting in having the LEDs in the bottom. The brightness would be insufficient in the case of partially transparent keycaps. I know it would mean a substantial effort, but we should aim at a layout where all keys are consistent in the ideal rotation.
    - Some prefer a different key layout for the thumb pad. In my case I would like to use SX1:5 and SX1:6 for single keys and use SX0:3 (and the spot over SX0:2) for the space bar. Unfortunately SX1:5 and SX1:6 do not support LEDs. Would be nice if this also would be possible.

    Lets continue the good progress.

    so long
    Rey
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 17 January 2014, 04:11:56
    Just wanted to give a heads up, I'm starting work on an ErgoDox with:
    - Correct PCB mount stabs
    - Alps + MX switch support
    - LED backlit
    - Onboard SMD components, so no need for a Teensy.
    - Keeping the same form factor, so current cases can be used.

    Other suggestions welcome.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 06:13:34
    Just wanted to give a heads up, I'm starting work on an ErgoDox with:
    - Correct PCB mount stabs
    - Alps + MX switch support
    - LED backlit
    - Onboard SMD components, so no need for a Teensy.
    - Keeping the same form factor, so current cases can be used.

    Other suggestions welcome.

    Sounds great!

    In a post on DT (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-pcbs-cases-electronics-and-assembly-services-t6972-60.html) (today  ;D), czarek said that  ergodox works with ALPS already. He posted a pic as well:

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: thadood on Fri, 17 January 2014, 13:09:24
    I feel out of the loop - what's the current status of the firmware? I haven't touched the firmware since I put together my round 3 one. I'd like to have media keys and whatnot!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 17 January 2014, 15:34:16
    I feel out of the loop - what's the current status of the firmware? I haven't touched the firmware since I put together my round 3 one. I'd like to have media keys and whatnot!

    Rev-1 on github supports a few media keys (thanks to judas cleric). Also, cub-uanic ported hasu's firmware to the ergodox a while ago. Rev-2 still doesn't have media keys, but it may in the future :)

    https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/readme.md
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: nerdhack on Sat, 18 January 2014, 09:14:01
    Hey, I'm done assembling my ergodox, and have come upon the "left side not working" issue. I read to some threads and followed people's debugging advice, but it's still not working for me. Here's what I've tried:

    - Checked all solder joints on connectors, resistors, and IO boards
    - Measured VCC across the board, also to the left side, 5v all around
    - Checked for continuity between connector pads, all good
    - My diodes are correctly oriented on both sides

    I'm starting to think "bad IO controller", but I wouldn't know how to verify that. Anything else I should be looking at? Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Sat, 18 January 2014, 10:21:21
    There've been several reports of bad TRRS cables. Don't forget each joint on the teensy headers...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: nerdhack on Sat, 18 January 2014, 10:35:57
    There've been several reports of bad TRRS cables. Don't forget each joint on the teensy headers...

    As stated above, I've tested continuity across both boards on all 4 pads. This would only be true if I connected the cable between the boards, right? So I'm ruling out a bad cable.

    I also checked the joints on the teensy, especially PD0 and PD1 as stated in another thread.

    EDIT: Just figured out something is odd with the right hand side. All the columns are shifted 1 to the right, so on the right hand the rightmost column "doesn't exist" and the leftmost column the middle row is sending a [ character. If this can help to diagnose my case...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 18 January 2014, 13:16:13
    I think it might be time for pics, especially of each controller.  Is the teensy placed where it should be?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 18 January 2014, 14:46:56
    does the regular dox pcb work with alps switches?

    where do people buy the alps switches?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 18 January 2014, 17:08:20
    does the regular dox pcb work with alps switches?

    where do people buy the alps switches?
    The answer you want is no, but there's a post on DT by Czarek to which I replied. Did you know you can set those switches neatly into holes on the PCB, and they even line up?  :p Don't get your hopes up, though. That isn't helpful.

    I bought my switches from 7bit, of DT fame, but MK has them too, and I bet matias' site sells their own switches to boot.

     Or you can try ebait ... find a board cheap, desolder it, re-solder those salmons or whatever, elsewhere.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sat, 18 January 2014, 17:17:15
    Just wanted to give a heads up, I'm starting work on an ErgoDox with:
    - Correct PCB mount stabs
    - Alps + MX switch support
    - LED backlit
    - Onboard SMD components, so no need for a Teensy.
    - Keeping the same form factor, so current cases can be used.

    Other suggestions welcome.

    Sounds great!

    In a post on DT (http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ergodox-pcbs-cases-electronics-and-assembly-services-t6972-60.html) (today  ;D), czarek said that  ergodox works with ALPS already. He posted a pic as well:

    (Attachment Link)

    Oh.... my.....

    oh my oh my oh my....

    I know what I'm doing with my next ErgoDox :-O
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 18 January 2014, 17:29:02
    Oh.... my.....

    oh my oh my oh my....
    Guys ... guys. It won't work. The switches fit because the 'dox uses a single, flippable PCB. They're going into the same pin.

    THE SAME PIN

    So you could, as I said over there, do this ... but your kbd would have columns, but no rows. Or possibly the reverse I'm not sure but ... aquakeys would fail this arrangement promptly and soundly.

    No compatibility. Collect the pieces of your mind, and kindly reassemble them. Now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 18 January 2014, 18:11:37
    Oh.... my.....

    oh my oh my oh my....
    Guys ... guys. It won't work. The switches fit because the 'dox uses a single, flippable PCB. They're going into the same pin.

    THE SAME PIN

    So you could, as I said over there, do this ... but your kbd would have columns, but no rows. Or possibly the reverse I'm not sure but ... aquakeys would fail this arrangement promptly and soundly.

    No compatibility. Collect the pieces of your mind, and kindly reassemble them. Now.

    What do you mean same pin,, it looks like different pins to me?

    (http://deskthority.net/resources/image/10931)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Sun, 19 January 2014, 00:22:30
    Above MX,bottom Matias, i think so...CMIIW
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 19 January 2014, 00:35:55
    Guys ... guys. It won't work. The switches fit because the 'dox uses a single, flippable PCB. They're going into the same pin.

    THE SAME PIN

    So you could, as I said over there, do this ... but your kbd would have columns, but no rows. Or possibly the reverse I'm not sure but ... aquakeys would fail this arrangement promptly and soundly.

    No compatibility. Collect the pieces of your mind, and kindly reassemble them. Now.

    Not quite correct. If you actually look at the traces, each hole on either side goes to the same trace for that side. The pin holes are grouped vertically, not horizontally. It will work.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 19 January 2014, 00:47:47
    It will work, although they aren't "aligned" perfectly, the switch would be slightly rotated clockwise and above the center of the intended center of the MX switch. Basically the distance between the two pin holes matches the distance between the pins on the Alps switch.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Sun, 19 January 2014, 22:25:53
    Well, as Matias switches are $50/100ct it's not gonna cost much to experiment.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Sun, 19 January 2014, 23:12:46
    Well, as Matias switches are $50/100ct it's not gonna cost much to experiment.
    On 7bit more cheaper :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 20 January 2014, 02:33:48
    Well, as Matias switches are $50/100ct it's not gonna cost much to experiment.

    I don't have Alps keycaps to test if the orientation is correct or not, otherwise I might have given this a go :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Mon, 20 January 2014, 02:40:22
    Well, as Matias switches are $50/100ct it's not gonna cost much to experiment.

    I don't have Alps keycaps to test if the orientation is correct or not, otherwise I might have given this a go :(
    Order custom on SP :rolleyes:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Talfrey on Mon, 20 January 2014, 06:23:46
    Does anyone know an alternative part to the 3.5mm TRRS plugs?

    Digikey is out until February.

    Can't find anyone who sells an equivalent to it.

    Part in question: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 20 January 2014, 10:07:21
    Does anyone know an alternative part to the 3.5mm TRRS plugs?
    I do. I have soldered on FC68129, but had to snip off a couple of pins that are unused on the ErgoDox.
    As far as I can tell from datasheets and from fitting them on, they are identical to the CP-43514 except for those extra pins.
    I have yet to complete my build with switches and firmware, so I have not tested to be able to confirm 100%. I suggest that you download and compare the datasheets for yourself if you are unsure. It is easy to get confused, though, by different datasheets using different numbering and orientation.

    I only got my custom-made plates in the mail today, that I had designed a few months ago. The laser-cutting firm first delayed processing my order over a month, then they goofed the scale and made it much too big, but the result I got today is OK. :)
    Now, with the plates in hand, I can continue with the next step of installing switches and diodes. :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 20 January 2014, 12:33:56
    Does anyone know an alternative part to the 3.5mm TRRS plugs?
    I do. I have soldered on FC68129, but had to snip off a couple of pins that are unused on the ErgoDox.
    As far as I can tell from datasheets and from fitting them on, they are identical to the CP-43514 except for those extra pins.
    I have yet to complete my build with switches and firmware, so I have not tested to be able to confirm 100%. I suggest that you download and compare the datasheets for yourself if you are unsure. It is easy to get confused, though, by different datasheets using different numbering and orientation.

    I only got my custom-made plates in the mail today, that I had designed a few months ago. The laser-cutting firm first delayed processing my order over a month, then they goofed the scale and made it much too big, but the result I got today is OK. :)
    Now, with the plates in hand, I can continue with the next step of installing switches and diodes. :)

    is that part better?  the stock one that comes with the kit is a bit low quality/flimsy
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Talfrey on Mon, 20 January 2014, 13:42:56
    http://www.tme.eu/en/details/fc68129/jack-connectors/cliff/

    It looks nearly identical from the pictures I have found of it.

    Not sure how I feel about it needing pins trimmed, but as it's a TRRS connector, it should only need 2 active pins, the others should be grounding or something.

    Any recommendations on where to pick it up?

    Can't seem to find it for anything less than 20 bucks shipping, which is several times over the cost of the part.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 20 January 2014, 17:32:10
    I have soldered on FC68129, but had to snip off a couple of pins that are unused on the ErgoDox.
    is that part better?  the stock one that comes with the kit is a bit low quality/flimsy
    I don't know. I got it because I could not get the recommended part. They look the same from the outside.

    Not sure how I feel about it needing pins trimmed, but as it's a TRRS connector, it should only need 2 active pins, the others should be grounding or something.
    There are four signal lines, all of which are needed for the keyboard to function.
    The connector is only soldered on, so the more pins it has soldered to the PCB the better it should sit on the PCB. There are five pin holes on the PCB, plus one unused hole because the PCB is symmetric.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Mon, 20 January 2014, 18:17:24
    For some reason, my ergodox which I'm using for months, started  freezing. It happens 4-5 times a day and the only remedy is to unplug it and plug it back in. Any idea as to why it could be happening ?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Mon, 20 January 2014, 22:39:13
    For some reason, my ergodox which I'm using for months, started  freezing. It happens 4-5 times a day and the only remedy is to unplug it and plug it back in. Any idea as to why it could be happening ?
    I'll start with checking the continuity of the trrs cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 21 January 2014, 11:52:51
    For some reason, my ergodox which I'm using for months, started  freezing. It happens 4-5 times a day and the only remedy is to unplug it and plug it back in. Any idea as to why it could be happening ?
    I'll start with checking the continuity of the trrs cable.


    yup... this trrs connection i think was a bad choice.

    We should definitely go with micro usb next time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Tue, 21 January 2014, 12:16:15
    Alternatives should have 4 lines
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Tue, 21 January 2014, 12:40:49
    My vote would be RJ11 based:

    It's very common
    It's affordable
    Easy to make
    There is a wide selection of cables available, including retracting, braided and curly
    The PCB footprint is fairly similar to the one currently on the ErgoDOX, would not require a major PDB redesign
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Tue, 21 January 2014, 13:10:00
    Its the poor quality of the stock cables included with the kit that's the problem rather than the choice of trrs connectors itself. If the wires used are thin and poorly soldered, even micro usb wouldn't help.

    Just make your own trrs cables with better wires. I've yet to have an issue with the connectors using my own cables.

    Or alternatively, hardwire the two halves together.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 21 January 2014, 15:16:05
    Its the poor quality of the stock cables included with the kit that's the problem rather than the choice of trrs connectors itself. If the wires used are thin and poorly soldered, even micro usb wouldn't help.

    Just make your own trrs cables with better wires. I've yet to have an issue with the connectors using my own cables.

    Or alternatively, hardwire the two halves together.

    The cable is fine.... very hard to break the cable.. the mini plug, plug is sound.. it's the port that's not so great.

    It's the connector...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Tue, 21 January 2014, 15:25:39
    im pretty abusive when it comes to the connectors, i have a keyboard tray thing, its more of a extension of my desk on a arm than it is a traditional slide out tray. I keep ramming my ergo dox into my desk which destroys the cables over time but it also destroys the connectors on the ErgoDox in addition to just trading out keyboards a lot. Ive bought a bunch on digikey; Ive had to replace the TRRS and USB connectors on my ergodox at least 4 times on my white/aluminium ergodox and once on my acrylic fullhand ergodox.
    On the white/aluminium one, i replaced the ports recently and its still giving me a problem so i think from all the de-soldering and soldering i damaged the PCB so i either need to fix or replace the pcb :( i need freaking right angle connectors.....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Tue, 21 January 2014, 22:33:30
    My vote would be RJ11 based:

    It's very common
    It's affordable
    Easy to make
    There is a wide selection of cables available, including retracting, braided and curly
    The PCB footprint is fairly similar to the one currently on the ErgoDOX, would not require a major PDB redesign
    DSL :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 22 January 2014, 05:51:18
    im pretty abusive when it comes to the connectors, i have a keyboard tray thing, its more of a extension of my desk on a arm than it is a traditional slide out tray. I keep ramming my ergo dox into my desk which destroys the cables over time but it also destroys the connectors on the ErgoDox in addition to just trading out keyboards a lot. Ive bought a bunch on digikey; Ive had to replace the TRRS and USB connectors on my ergodox at least 4 times on my white/aluminium ergodox and once on my acrylic fullhand ergodox.
    On the white/aluminium one, i replaced the ports recently and its still giving me a problem so i think from all the de-soldering and soldering i damaged the PCB so i either need to fix or replace the pcb :( i need freaking right angle connectors.....


    My right trrs port was became wonky, and my left board kept disconnecting...

    So I removed the port and soldered a new one on.. Eventually.. same problem kept occuring..

    I tested the cable both times and it functioned solidly even when I twisted it back and forth during testing.


    Eventually... I just cut the cable, and soldered it directly to my PCB and now everything has been working perfectly.

    They only sell right angle trrs cable with single end that's right angled..

    You'd have to buy two of the and use a coupler in the middle.

    http://www.unicornelex.com/3_5mm_4_Conductor_TRRS_Audio_Video_Coupler_p/29-5215.htm
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 22 January 2014, 08:59:51
    I concur with rj11 as a good option. Those audio-style connectors like TRRS always seem a bit flaky.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:36:49
    heck USB B uses four wires, too. PCB mount female USB-B connectors seem plentiful, whereas RJ11, a beautiful solution, seems to be falling out of vogue as fewer people rely on landlines for communication. Maybe RJ45 and just ignore the other wires?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:57:53
    heck USB B uses four wires, too. PCB mount female USB-B connectors seem plentiful, whereas RJ11, a beautiful solution, seems to be falling out of vogue as fewer people rely on landlines for communication. Maybe RJ45 and just ignore the other wires?

    Interestingly, on the ErgoT, Regack and I decided to use micro-usb-a, since we had to go for micro-usb-b on the main connector and wanted different connectors, so less chances of error.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yasuo on Wed, 22 January 2014, 12:00:59
    micro usb i think better than mini,not easily separated like on matias
    but hard find mivro usb female/connector :-X
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 22 January 2014, 16:39:44
    I was considering, instead of having having a separate USB-cable and a connecting cable use one connector on each keyboard half and a special Y-cable.
    The Y-cable would split the USB in two, but be a connecting cable for the two lines needed for I2C.
    The cable and connectors would therefore need only six lines, as there is no point in duplicating +5V and GND.
    The beauty in this arrangement would be that the cable would be symmetric, at least on the keyboard side - only one plug in either keyboard - and those two are the same plug. I could switch the plugs if I wanted to.

    Anyway, it was easier to just give in and use two cables than to find a small flat six-pin connector and have the custom Y-cable made.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 22 January 2014, 21:19:54
    For some reason, my ergodox which I'm using for months, started  freezing. It happens 4-5 times a day and the only remedy is to unplug it and plug it back in. Any idea as to why it could be happening ?
    I'll start with checking the continuity of the trrs cable.


    TRRS cable is fine. I can wiggle the cable and tug on the connectors, and the keyboard types fine throughout all that. It's very odd, since the keyboard is stationary, I'm not moving it around or anything, so there's absolutely no wear on the cables and connectors.
    I can't yet explain why it freezes occasionally. Sometimes I leave the computer, come back after a few minutes, and find the keyboard unresponsive. I then unplug/plug it back and all is fine.
    It has never done it while I'm actively typing, all the times it froze, I was actually not typing at that moment.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: daerid on Wed, 22 January 2014, 22:06:41
    TRRS cable is fine. I can wiggle the cable and tug on the connectors, and the keyboard types fine throughout all that. It's very odd, since the keyboard is stationary, I'm not moving it around or anything, so there's absolutely no wear on the cables and connectors.
    I can't yet explain why it freezes occasionally. Sometimes I leave the computer, come back after a few minutes, and find the keyboard unresponsive. I then unplug/plug it back and all is fine.
    It has never done it while I'm actively typing, all the times it froze, I was actually not typing at that moment.

    Mine just started doing that two days ago. It's very intermittent, but it's damned annoying :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Wed, 22 January 2014, 22:51:12
    Mine just started doing that two days ago. It's very intermittent, but it's damned annoying :(

    ESD can cause strange EMI problems. The discharge doesn't
    need to be to/from the keyboard for there to be problems.
    One simple way to generate a nice wideband EMI source is
    to use a coil/solenoid and energize it with a D-cell battery.
    Holding one side of the connection steady, keep making
    and breaking the other connection so that you generate sparks.
    If you do this near your keyboard and it causes problems then
    you have demonstrated an EMC problem, and one possible
    reason for the keyboard to experience strange symptoms.

    I've heard of products suffering resets and other problems from
    simply moving your body on a cloth seat - I've seen this personally
    as well. At least here in the frozen north, this time of year is when
    these issues will show as the humidity is so low that ESD is much
    more frequent and energetic.

    Try it out! Post your results!

    Another possible solution: Put a humidifier in your room and see
    if the problem goes away.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Wed, 22 January 2014, 22:59:32
    @ sordna and daerid

    I'd would check the boards in this order,

    trrs connectors, usb connector, then the solder joints for the teensy and the i/o expander.

    If you've recently swapped to aluminium top/bottom plates, make sure that nothing (i.e. the mini usb on the teensy) is in contact with the plates.

    barring software issues, faulty usb ports on your computers, or actual hardware failure, it appears something is shorting your ergodoxes out. ESD is a possible issue, like OldDatahands have pointed out.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 23 January 2014, 12:00:34
    Thank you both.
    I believe OldDataHands' theory about ESD is the most plausible. My soldering is impeccable anyway :-)

    I'll try to do the ESD experiment, thank you for that tip!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Thu, 23 January 2014, 12:12:52
    Sounds like we might need to review the PCB and case designs to verify that grounding/shielding works correctly and that we have low impedance ground paths that don't interfere with control circuits and last but not least eliminate grounding loops.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: nerdhack on Thu, 23 January 2014, 18:20:16
    Hey, I'm done assembling my ergodox, and have come upon the "left side not working" issue. I read to some threads and followed people's debugging advice, but it's still not working for me. Here's what I've tried:

    - Checked all solder joints on connectors, resistors, and IO boards
    - Measured VCC across the board, also to the left side, 5v all around
    - Checked for continuity between connector pads, all good
    - My diodes are correctly oriented on both sides

    I'm starting to think "bad IO controller", but I wouldn't know how to verify that. Anything else I should be looking at? Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks :)
    There've been several reports of bad TRRS cables. Don't forget each joint on the teensy headers...

    As stated above, I've tested continuity across both boards on all 4 pads. This would only be true if I connected the cable between the boards, right? So I'm ruling out a bad cable.

    I also checked the joints on the teensy, especially PD0 and PD1 as stated in another thread.

    EDIT: Just figured out something is odd with the right hand side. All the columns are shifted 1 to the right, so on the right hand the rightmost column "doesn't exist" and the leftmost column the middle row is sending a [ character. If this can help to diagnose my case...

    I took some pictures of my solder joints. The PCB has a few marks as I soldered the teensy and the IO controller on the wrong sides the first time. The IO controller now on the board is not the first one I used, as that one was too heavily damaged by desoldering, those pins are pretty thin. The headers on the teensy were also replaced. Anyone see anything that I might be missing? Did I just f* it up with all the rework?

    Gallery on imgur, didn't want to spam 7 pics inline:
    http://imgur.com/a/TySxE (http://imgur.com/a/TySxE)

    BTW, in retrospect, I'd advise anyone who reads this, that if you end up soldering the diodes and controllers on the same side of the PCB, and want to flip things back the right way, it is IMHO an easier task to desolder the diodes... even though that is not the shortest path by intuition ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Thu, 23 January 2014, 20:45:54
    I took some pictures of my solder joints. The PCB has a few marks as I soldered the teensy and the IO controller on the wrong sides the first time. The IO controller now on the board is not the first one I used, as that one was too heavily damaged by desoldering, those pins are pretty thin. The headers on the teensy were also replaced. Anyone see anything that I might be missing? Did I just f* it up with all the rework?

    Gallery on imgur, didn't want to spam 7 pics inline:
    http://imgur.com/a/TySxE (http://imgur.com/a/TySxE)

    BTW, in retrospect, I'd advise anyone who reads this, that if you end up soldering the diodes and controllers on the same side of the PCB, and want to flip things back the right way, it is IMHO an easier task to desolder the diodes... even though that is not the shortest path by intuition ;)
    I can't make out much at the resolution of those images...
    Nothing looks alarming to me, but maybe 'cause I can't see much.

    Find your local makerspace and have someone help you with
    an oscilloscope to see what the I2C bus looks like. You should
    see the serial comms traffic on the lines, and it should have nice,
    sharp falling edges with no noise. Measure at the I2C pins of the
    IOX and at the Teensy. That'll be your guide.
    1 of 3 things: Replace Teensy, fix soldering/wires, replace IOX.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: nerdhack on Thu, 23 January 2014, 23:03:22
    I can't make out much at the resolution of those images...
    Nothing looks alarming to me, but maybe 'cause I can't see much.

    Find your local makerspace and have someone help you with
    an oscilloscope to see what the I2C bus looks like. You should
    see the serial comms traffic on the lines, and it should have nice,
    sharp falling edges with no noise. Measure at the I2C pins of the
    IOX and at the Teensy. That'll be your guide.
    1 of 3 things: Replace Teensy, fix soldering/wires, replace IOX.

    Oops, sorry about that, here is original resolution : http://imgur.com/a/vf8L4 (http://imgur.com/a/vf8L4)

    Thanks for the tip about the I2C, I'll look into that and report back.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 23 January 2014, 23:10:54
    I can't make out much at the resolution of those images...
    Nothing looks alarming to me, but maybe 'cause I can't see much.

    Find your local makerspace and have someone help you with
    an oscilloscope to see what the I2C bus looks like. You should
    see the serial comms traffic on the lines, and it should have nice,
    sharp falling edges with no noise. Measure at the I2C pins of the
    IOX and at the Teensy. That'll be your guide.
    1 of 3 things: Replace Teensy, fix soldering/wires, replace IOX.

    Oops, sorry about that, here is original resolution : http://imgur.com/a/vf8L4 (http://imgur.com/a/vf8L4)

    Thanks for the tip about the I2C, I'll look into that and report back.

    Some of the joints to the teensy don't look very good, the solder isn't even going all the way around the pin. It doesn't look bad enough to not work though, I wonder what my solder joints would look like zoomed in that much...  ;)
    Title: Ergodox: where to the LEDs go, again?
    Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 24 January 2014, 00:37:56
    On a completely different tack, I'm considering putting LEDs into my 'dox board ... but had already sorta slopped a bit too much solder while putting sod-323 SMD diodes at each pin before looking and realizing that, unlike the phantom, the LEDs seem to be instead of diodes ... the other place up near the top is "just" for the resistors (am I right?)

    If I want LEDs now, do I have to use this as my left-hand side, and put the SMD diodes on the bottom of both boards, or do I have more alternatives despite my limitations of using a Weller 23PL and not owning a solder-sucker or the like? (note: google doesn't even want to admit I have this thing (http://www.homedepot.ca/product/weller-solder-iron-25-watt/900922).)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 24 January 2014, 06:26:05
    On a completely different tack, I'm considering putting LEDs into my 'dox board ... but had already sorta slopped a bit too much solder while putting sod-323 SMD diodes at each pin before looking and realizing that, unlike the phantom, the LEDs seem to be instead of diodes ... the other place up near the top is "just" for the resistors (am I right?)

    If I want LEDs now, do I have to use this as my left-hand side, and put the SMD diodes on the bottom of both boards, or do I have more alternatives despite my limitations of using a Weller 23PL and not owning a solder-sucker or the like? (note: google doesn't even want to admit I have this thing (http://www.homedepot.ca/product/weller-solder-iron-25-watt/900922).)

    I'me quite sure I get what you mean but you can swap the resistor and LED positions.
    Title: LEDs go where, now?
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 25 January 2014, 21:54:34
    I'me quite sure I get what you mean but you can swap the resistor and LED positions.
    So, just so I don't have to type 2,000 words, this:
    Resistor (http://i.imgur.com/aUIRWQe.jpg) and LED (http://i.imgur.com/zGdPqtM.jpg)

    will work?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 26 January 2014, 04:28:55
    Yes. As long as you have right resistance based on your LED and LED is in right polarity, resistance doesn't have a polarity, so it can be oriented any way you like.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 26 January 2014, 08:32:50
    I'm telling you guys, it's the damned trrs.... I got the intermittent issue all the time when I was using it.

    When I soldered the wires directly to the board... I've yet to have A SINGLE disconnect.
    Title: Re: Ergodox: where to the LEDs go, again?
    Post by: justnits on Thu, 30 January 2014, 06:30:02
    On a completely different tack, I'm considering putting LEDs into my 'dox board ... but had already sorta slopped a bit too much solder while putting sod-323 SMD diodes at each pin before looking and realizing that, unlike the phantom, the LEDs seem to be instead of diodes ... the other place up near the top is "just" for the resistors (am I right?)

    If I want LEDs now, do I have to use this as my left-hand side, and put the SMD diodes on the bottom of both boards, or do I have more alternatives despite my limitations of using a Weller 23PL and not owning a solder-sucker or the like? (note: google doesn't even want to admit I have this thing (http://www.homedepot.ca/product/weller-solder-iron-25-watt/900922).)

    How are you planning to put LEDs?
    I mean, are you planning to put LEDs on every switch?

    What I wanted to do is to have a few LEDs shining out at the side of the acrylic case.

    Not sure if that is do-able.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pas008 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:37:13
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:51:34
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes

    I don't have one (in the mail still) but I have read that there is some kind of firmware check for the left side that stops it working. There is a way to remove that by modifying the fw though. I'll have to see if I can find the post, someone said they did this when they had a failing trrs cable or plug (between the hands).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kzhk on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:56:43
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes

    One side can be used alone if it is the side that contains the teensy chip, which is usually the right one. It is possible to put the tensy on the left, it will work except the teensy chip must be mounted upside-down and I don't know if it fits in the case...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 January 2014, 23:57:29
    Found it, it was from a post by morkl on deskthority: http://deskthority.net/post144507.html#p144507 (http://deskthority.net/post144507.html#p144507)

    Quote
    Well, I had to remove some error handling from the firmware to make it work without the TRRS cable
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pas008 on Fri, 31 January 2014, 00:01:35
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes

    I don't have one (in the mail still) but I have read that there is some kind of firmware check for the left side that stops it working. There is a way to remove that by modifying the fw though. I'll have to see if I can find the post, someone said they did this when they had a failing trrs cable or plug (between the hands).

    hmm, decisions
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 31 January 2014, 13:21:31
    has anyone tried painting the anodized aluminum top layer massdrop sells with the ergodox? what is the best way to paint anodized aluminum. just buy special spray paint?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 31 January 2014, 14:33:55
    has anyone tried painting the anodized aluminum top layer massdrop sells with the ergodox? what is the best way to paint anodized aluminum. just buy special spray paint?
    There are several brands that have lines of transparent paint specifically intended for colouring bare shiny metal to make it look like colour-anodized aluminium.

    If you want a normal finish, brands of car paints often have "Aluminium Primer" as part of their line, but I think they are better on raw aluminium than anodized. Sanding the part (with sandpaper... duh ;) ) is a common method to improve adhesion to primer.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tlem on Sun, 02 February 2014, 21:29:53
    Has anybody had issues with the Massdrop provided leds?  I had a 2 leftover leds from an old group buy, and I suspect that the polarity of these leds are reversed. 

    2 massdrop leds on the left. Random yellow led on the right. The cathode (shorter pin and bigger internals) is on the left, correct?
    (http://puu.sh/6I63R.jpg)

    Massdrop led with cathode going to GND.  This should light up, but it doesn't.  If I understand correctly, the cathode of the led should point to ground, and the anode should point to +ve.
    (http://puu.sh/6I5ZL.jpg)

    Massdrop led with cathode going to VCC.  This shouldn't light up, but it does.
    (http://puu.sh/6I61J.jpg)

    Yellow led with cathode going to GND.  This lights up.  Good.
    (http://puu.sh/6I62J.jpg)

    Yellow led with cathode going to VCC.  This doesn't light up.  Good.
    (http://puu.sh/6I63c.jpg)

    From those tests, it looks like the massdrop leds are incorrect.

    Some more proof that the polarity is reversed:  From the assembly instructions, "For SW2:7, SW4:7, and SW5:7, also solder LEDs. Note the polarity of the LED. The long end of the LED connection goes to the square pad on the PCB."  So, they are saying the anode should go to the square pad.  The square pad looks like GND.  See pcb below:

    (http://puu.sh/6I7bu.JPG)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 03 February 2014, 10:44:08
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes

    I don't have one (in the mail still) but I have read that there is some kind of firmware check for the left side that stops it working. There is a way to remove that by modifying the fw though. I'll have to see if I can find the post, someone said they did this when they had a failing trrs cable or plug (between the hands).

    hmm, decisions

    just buy the whole kit.. you can stow the right side somewhere else when you're not using it..

    jeebus?(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/t/o/tooloudplz.gif?1)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Mon, 03 February 2014, 11:07:04
    a redesign of the case could allow the teensy to go underneath phantom-style allowing the right hand to become the left land making a game pad

    while im thinking like that.....

    in fact a redesign of the acrylic case where things are flipped would also allow low-profile style cases where there is no lip (MOZ Phantom, GON, TEX, etc). we would just have to solder everything, including the expander, similar to soldering the teensy on a phantom (flush with pcb).

    sooo you know what would be cool if the ergodox pcb was redesigned to have pre-soldered parts? a GON aluminium ErgoDox case..... that would be awesome :) Korean custom ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Mon, 03 February 2014, 11:23:53
    it'll be nice to have a RGB led to indicate which layer you're at right now  ;D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 03 February 2014, 14:09:03
    Working on redesign to support Alps/MX and SMD components, with LED support.

    I'm in the phase of laying out all the components on the PCB, and then it is onto routing.

    I'll post the schematic soon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 03 February 2014, 21:34:01
    can only one side be used

    like flip the right side to make left and use as gamepad?

    iso quick response before kit on mass drop closes

    I don't have one (in the mail still) but I have read that there is some kind of firmware check for the left side that stops it working. There is a way to remove that by modifying the fw though. I'll have to see if I can find the post, someone said they did this when they had a failing trrs cable or plug (between the hands).

    Although my newly-arrived Ergodox has other problems (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.msg1215910#msg1215910), it does seem to work fine only using the right side (the side with the teensy).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 04 February 2014, 07:15:53
    Here is the schematic.

    As you can see I've implemented:
    - Some ESD/EMI suppresion
    - Onboard MCU and backlight support as well
    - MiniUSB instead of TRRS
    - Alps support

    This should allow one to use:
    - Left and right hand together as it is used currently
    - Only one hand (Left or right)
    - It should also allow a user to use both hands together or pull-out the inter-hand connection and use either hand standalone (Currently can only be done with the side with the Teensy), what this would require is a MCU on both sides and no I/O expander soldered, the firmware will have to be modded to allow I2C communication between the two MCUs for combined mode. However it is a possibility nonetheless.

    Truth be told, the two MCU approach is much better and flexible too, as each MCU will do the polling and will store config for it's own hand and relay to USB connected side. As explained earlier, both hands can be used individually as well as via interconnection. Only downside is that firmware will have to be modded.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bazh on Tue, 04 February 2014, 07:30:58
    that's exactly what I expect for the next ErgoDOX, Moz, keep that going :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Tue, 04 February 2014, 08:58:36
    that's exactly what I expect for the next ErgoDOX, Moz, keep that going :p

    Expect what? :P
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Tue, 04 February 2014, 09:38:40
    that's exactly what I expect for the next ErgoDOX, Moz, keep that going :p

    Expect what? :P

    ErgoMOZ
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bazh on Tue, 04 February 2014, 10:29:12
    that's exactly what I expect for the next ErgoDOX, Moz, keep that going :p

    Expect what? :P

    Full led support and onboard MCU

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Sun, 09 February 2014, 03:47:57
    How open are people to the idea of 6 extra keys up top on the ergodox aligned towards the inner side of the keyboard.

    I ask this, as currently it is proving to be impossible to fit all the controller components on the PCB since it is double sides and I want the components to be mountable on either side, accessible at the bottom, so you need not remove switches to access them. This is very hard with the flip-able design, so I will most likely have to mount them up top (Where the Teensy is currently), I might be able to squeeze it in one corner on the outermost side.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Sun, 09 February 2014, 10:38:29
    How open are people to the idea of 6 extra keys up top on the ergodox aligned towards the inner side of the keyboard.

    I ask this, as currently it is proving to be impossible to fit all the controller components on the PCB since it is double sides and I want the components to be mountable on either side, accessible at the bottom, so you need not remove switches to access them. This is very hard with the flip-able design, so I will most likely have to mount them up top (Where the Teensy is currently), I might be able to squeeze it in one corner on the outermost side.
    any draft drawing you can show?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mattmanning on Sun, 09 February 2014, 17:10:51
    **UPDATE** Diodes are directional, you guys!! I'm an idiot. I didn't even think to check the polarity and just soldered on a bunch of surface-mount diodes. Once I put them back in the right direction everything worked. *facepalm*

    Hey folks. I'm having a lot of trouble with an ergodox build and I was hoping someone here could help. I've got a ton of keys that aren't working. I made a map of them here: http://cl.ly/image/1h0Y1x0m0O43

    Does that present a pattern recognizable to anyone here? I'm very experienced with soldering, and I've triple checked everything with a multimeter. I really don't think it's a soldering issue. Even if there were soldering issues I would expect them to affect either all the keys or a small handful, not ~half of them like this, right? I'm so confused.

    If you're curious you can see build photos in my twitter stream starting here: https://twitter.com/mattmanning/status/432316591573716992

    If anyone here has any suggestions I would be really eager to hear them. Also sorry if this is the wrong place to ask for help. If that's the case can someone please redirect me?

    Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zflamewing on Mon, 10 February 2014, 04:04:49
    Does anyone know if the files for Lister's acrylic case for the ergodox are crafted on a scale or true to size?  I'm trying to answer questions I'm getting from a person my wife sourced that crafts stuff for her company.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 10 February 2014, 04:32:04
    To size.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 10 February 2014, 08:51:35
    The CAD files on ergodox.org are made to size. Do you have other files?
    If you have to import to Inkscape, you have to have turned off scaling.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:05:05
    Does anyone have their Ergodox working wirelessly?  I have 3 of them and would love to liberate my desktops from wires where possible.  I have tried this with no success: http://handheldsci.com/kb
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard - POLL: Which Cherry MX switches?
    Post by: f2015009 on Tue, 11 February 2014, 19:56:29
    POLL - Please vote:
    Which Cherry MX switches do you prefer for ErgoDox?
    To vote please visit the poll at massdrop.com which you find here: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/ergodox-which-cherry-mx-switches-do-you-prefer
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard - POLL: Which Keycaps?
    Post by: f2015009 on Tue, 11 February 2014, 22:01:24
    POLL - Please vote:
    ErgoDox: Which Keycaps should be added to the kit?
    To vote please visit the poll at massdrop.com which you find here: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/ergodox-which-keycaps-should-be-added-to-the-kit
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 18 February 2014, 08:12:07
    Here's a tip: stabilizers are really nice on the 2x1 thumbkeys. People have said that it doesn't matter but mine felt much more wobbly and grating without them. Mine has brown switches.

    Also, you know what would be cool: if the Ergodox sent a text picture of its current layout to the debug screen of hid_listen.exe when you switch layers or press a "panic" button.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 18 February 2014, 08:38:38
    well, the code's up on github, get to it clicky ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 18 February 2014, 08:53:52
    well, the code's up on github, get to it clicky ;)

    I registered on GitHub today! Soon... How hard can it be?

    edit: I'm using tmk firmware btw.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 18 February 2014, 10:17:02
    ...How hard can it be?
    edit: I'm using tmk firmware btw.
    heh, that's the question isn't it ;) i've hacked at the ergodox specific code that ic07 put together and for that my answer would be "harder than i'd like, but prolly not nearly as hard as it could have been"
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dsmitify on Fri, 21 February 2014, 00:40:38
    I was thinking about a little mod for the ergodox.
    Do u guys think that making the 2 keys 1.5 would be better from the ergonomically point of view?
    I think these 2 keys are hit with the thumb?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 21 February 2014, 03:54:48
    I was thinking about a little mod for the ergodox.
    Do u guys think that making the 2 keys 1.5 would be better from the ergonomically point of view?
    I think these 2 keys are hit with the thumb?

    Personally I only hit the first one with my thumb sometimes. It feels a bit uncomfortable to me to hit the second one with my thumb, it's too far under my palm. I don't think having a 1.5 in the first position would improve the feel, the 1 sits exactly where the end of my thumb goes.

    What I do think would be good is to have an extra thumb key, and rotate the thumbkeys around a bit. Like the right hand of this shopped pic I just did.

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 21 February 2014, 04:11:10
    Why not replace the third column's 2 1u keys with 1 2u key
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dsmitify on Fri, 21 February 2014, 04:15:10
    Seeing how i use my current keyboard (natural ergonomic keyboard 4000) it would be very comfortable to have those 2 bigger (i think/imagine).
    I can reach them easy and without stress to my thumbs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 21 February 2014, 05:58:08
    Why not replace the third column's 2 1u keys with 1 2u key

    I actually find the 1u keys hard to reach. They're too far away IMO. My thumb's "neutral" position is just about right on the first 2u, ie the right 2u on the right hand.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: skcheng on Mon, 24 February 2014, 13:59:11
    Can anyone point me to the next Massdrop GB on the ErgoDox?    I'd like to buy a couple of them. 

    thx,

    skc
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 24 February 2014, 16:07:54
    Can anyone point me to the next Massdrop GB on the ErgoDox?    I'd like to buy a couple of them. 

    thx,

    skc

    If you go to https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox) and click on "notify me" or whatever it is on the right hand side (just says "requested" for me since I've already done it), they will email you when the buy is on again.

    I'd bet the house that someone will mention it in this thread when they are available again as well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Mon, 24 February 2014, 19:37:37
    Can anyone point me to the next Massdrop GB on the ErgoDox?    I'd like to buy a couple of them. 

    thx,

    skc

    if i'm not mistaken, they will be doing the groupbuy again somewhere next month.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: technomancy on Thu, 27 February 2014, 18:33:06
    Do u guys think that making the 2 keys 1.5 would be better from the ergonomically point of view?
    I think these 2 keys are hit with the thumb?

    I actually replaced the inner 2x keys on each thumb cluster with a 1.5x instead. This makes the remaining 2xes a bit easier to hit. I don't really use anything but the first key on the bottom row myself. This might vary based on the size of your hand though; a friend of mine actually uses the 1x keys on the thumb clusters, which I can't hit at all while touch typing.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lonedruid on Fri, 28 February 2014, 13:11:40
    wow. i just arrived at an uncharted place in geekhack wonderland.  :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 28 February 2014, 22:21:08
    Digikey has 12,000 trrs connectors in Stock now. So I guess the shortage is over.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 28 February 2014, 22:31:39
    wow. i just arrived at an uncharted place in geekhack wonderland.  :p

    Quote
    3183 Replies
    189262 Views

    Hmm... That's a lot of views for uncharted territory.  :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JamesFnord on Mon, 03 March 2014, 15:07:15
    Hey chaps, been running into a bit of a problem with my dox, some of the keys on the right hand side (the side with the teensy) are intermittently not registering or registering twice. Anybody have any ideas as to what the problem might be? I've already checked all the solder joints on the switches and none of those seem to be the problem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 03 March 2014, 16:25:25
    Hey chaps, been running into a bit of a problem with my dox, some of the keys on the right hand side (the side with the teensy) are intermittently not registering or registering twice. Anybody have any ideas as to what the problem might be? I've already checked all the solder joints on the switches and none of those seem to be the problem.

    I'd replace the switches that are having problems.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 07 March 2014, 17:37:01
    Something I just discovered:
    If you are design your own switch-mounting plates for ErgoDox and you plan to use Cherry stabilisers, make sure that the stabiliser wire is on the opposite side from where the diode is supposed to be ...  :-[
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Wed, 12 March 2014, 16:53:21
    I got my kit about 3 weeks ago. I've been working on putting it together ever since, and it's just about finished, but I've been running into some problems. I've managed to get most keys working and the board plugs in and works fine, gets registered as a USB device, etc. I could use some help from anyone with a little more experience with soldering, and with the ErgoDox in particular.

    1) A lot of keys on the left-hand side are registering at once, all along the left row. If I press 1 or =, I get 1= at the same time. If I press q or \, I get \q at the same time, etc.

    2) One of the little square pads on that side has come loose (according to this (http://i.imgur.com/0DFgS.png), it's the L_GUI key) , probably from my having to solder and desolder the diodes too many times (the guide on MD doesn't mention that, for instance, the direction of the diodes matters, and at first I soldered all 76 on the wrong side of their respective PCBs, so I had to flip them all several times, on top of a few other problems I ran into). I can't figure out how to solder the diode back on without the pad, and I have no idea how to fix it.

    3) None of the keys along the bottom row of the right-hand board work. According to this (http://i.imgur.com/0DFgS.png) image, those should be the four arrow keys and the R_GUI key. I'm using OS X to test it, so I assume that's supposed to be either Option or Command.

    4) None of the la 1+-1 keys register. I freely admit that this could be the way I'm testing the keyboard, though, because I'm using the EventViewer program that comes with "KeyRemap4Macbook" program, and it shows keypress events as interpreted by the system, not raw USB input. It could be that those keys don't do anything on a Mac, because I haven't heard of them until now.

    5) Neither of the arrow keys on the lower-left side of the left board work.

    6) When the board is connected, a burst of directions occurs: right, left, down, up, once each.

    There are a few other keys that don't work yet, but I believe that has to do with shoddy soldering, and I'll re-do them before I worry about whether they work.

    I'm eager to finish this thing up and start learning to type on it (switching from a Truly Ergonomic), so any advice would be appreciated.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Wed, 12 March 2014, 17:50:46
    4) None of the la 1+-1 keys register. I freely admit that this could be the way I'm testing the keyboard, though, because I'm using the EventViewer program that comes with "KeyRemap4Macbook" program, and it shows keypress events as interpreted by the system, not raw USB input. It could be that those keys don't do anything on a Mac, because I haven't heard of them until now.
    that'll be layer shifting keys which don't do anything to feed back to the host. it's something internal to the keyboard so that you can program it to send different key events when you switch layers - think about a laptop keyboard that has a numberpad sharing with the letter keys, you can use it to do stuff like that.

    the firmware has 2 different ways of working with layers, you can either press a button to activate it, and then another to deactivate it (as long as you configure a suitable layout!) or have it only activate the layer whilst you hold down the layer shift key. think caps lock vs holding shift. i use the holdy-downy flavour to give me number pad, F-keys and the like, and the permanent switchy variety to switch between mac & windows configs (mostly swapping cmd & ctrl keys) and to switch my layout from colemak to stupid mode  (also known as qwerty).

    'fraid i don't have any answers about the other things.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Wed, 12 March 2014, 18:09:06
    Thanks, definitely helpful, that'll help me figure out whether or not they work.

    On that note, another pad has come off, this one on the Enter key (one of the ones that I thought wasn't working because of the bad connection). I can ignore a missing extra Command key, but not having an Enter key will make the keyboard essentially unusable. If there's anybody who can help with that, I'd sure appreciate it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 13 March 2014, 17:55:52
    Thanks, definitely helpful, that'll help me figure out whether or not they work.

    On that note, another pad has come off, this one on the Enter key (one of the ones that I thought wasn't working because of the bad connection). I can ignore a missing extra Command key, but not having an Enter key will make the keyboard essentially unusable. If there's anybody who can help with that, I'd sure appreciate it.

    Sounds like your board has a lot of problems! It is almost certainly because of shoddy soldering. Also you should check to make 100% sure that your diodes are the correct way around. The cathode of each diode needs to be connected to the square pad for each switch.

    [attach=1]

    Remember that the whole point of a pcb is to connect certain component leads to other component leads via the copper tracks on the board. So if you're missing a pad, you can usually just solder the component directly to the leads that it needs to be connected to, which will be electrically identical to if the pcb pad was there like it should be. Have a look at how I added a resistor to my board in this post here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.msg1233535#msg1233535). The black insulation on the resistor is heatshrink tubing, which is super useful, but you could just use insulation tape instead.

    The thing about the ergodox is that every key is completely programmable. I'd make a "testing" layout where every key is just a letter or a number (no layer switching/shift key/ctrl key/etc), so I can easily tell exactly what key or keys the ergodox thinks are being pressed.

    Re: your enter key problem, remember that any key can be made to be an enter key if you want! That's what so great about the ergodox and other programmable keyboards!

    The keys are arranged in a matrix, so if the keyboard is sensing that a whole row is being pressed at once, it is likely that that row sensing line is being shorted to the ground plane or another row line somewhere. This post (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.msg1217436#msg1217436) has a picture of how a single line is connected to all thumb keys, it's a similar idea for different rows.

    Although I think the Ergodox is a ridiculously great design, I'm not a big fan of the ground plane that is all over the board that is so easy to short with a point somewhere to knock out whole rows at a time. It's very hard to troubleshoot at that point because there are so many places where it could be shorted.

    If you have a multimeter with a continuity buzzer, that can be very helpful to manually tell which lines are being shorted.

    Edit: You might find my thread here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.msg1215910#msg1215910) useful just to see how I approached troubleshooting my Ergodox that had a similar sounding problem to yours (one of your board's problems anyway!) where it would think that all the thumb keys on the left hand were being held down.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Sun, 16 March 2014, 00:05:09
    I’m putting together an Ergodox, and would like to put the LEDs somewhere visible [e.g. up at the top] instead of buried inside a solid black keycap.

    One option is supposed to be swapping the positions of the LEDs and the resistors, but I can’t find any pictures/descriptions online of exactly how that is done. Where exactly should I be putting the resistors? The holes for the LED leads are very close together, so I guess I have to attach at least one end of the resistor by bending its lead back to fit, or perhaps via a tiny bit of patch cable?

    Does anyone have other advice about this?

    I did this on my first ErgoDox; getting the LEDs well-positioned was a bit tricky -- see the last paragraph and photo here:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg903055#msg903055

    I've also built a second ErgoDox (one for home, one for work ;^), where I retained the original LED/resistor positions, but I mounted the LEDs under the PCB and bent off to the side, so they shine though the inboard edge of the case; I think I prefer this approach over the swap method.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Sun, 16 March 2014, 18:59:45
    Quote from: clickclack123
    Sounds like your board has a lot of problems! It is almost certainly because of shoddy soldering.
    Yeah, no kidding. The people I've spoken to who told me that this is a good first time project clearly don't grasp what "first time" means.

    I found a loupe in my junk drawer and saw a bunch of tiny solder bridges on the I/O expander, which fixed the rows that seemed to be tied together.

    The only problems remaining now (that I know of) are the Enter and right Command keys (SW1:13 and SW0:2). I'll rebind a key to Enter for now, but I'd really rather fix the problem than pretend it isn't there. I've tried soldering the diodes on without the pads, but the solder won't stay on the diode no matter what I do, it either gets sucked up onto the iron or beneath the diode itself, or migrates onto one of the nearby holes. I think they would work if I could connect them as you suggested, but the solder turns into a semi-sentient, gelatinous blob of angry mercury every time I try to attach it.

    Thanks for the help, anyway. Here's hoping they do another keycap drop on MD sometime soon; I haven't liked any of the blanks, so I've got a sort of Frankenboard right now. And I'm still waiting on the aluminum plates I ordered...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 16 March 2014, 23:15:19
    Quote from: clickclack123
    Sounds like your board has a lot of problems! It is almost certainly because of shoddy soldering.
    Yeah, no kidding. The people I've spoken to who told me that this is a good first time project clearly don't grasp what "first time" means.

    I found a loupe in my junk drawer and saw a bunch of tiny solder bridges on the I/O expander, which fixed the rows that seemed to be tied together.

    The only problems remaining now (that I know of) are the Enter and right Command keys (SW1:13 and SW0:2). I'll rebind a key to Enter for now, but I'd really rather fix the problem than pretend it isn't there. I've tried soldering the diodes on without the pads, but the solder won't stay on the diode no matter what I do, it either gets sucked up onto the iron or beneath the diode itself, or migrates onto one of the nearby holes. I think they would work if I could connect them as you suggested, but the solder turns into a semi-sentient, gelatinous blob of angry mercury every time I try to attach it.

    Agreed about the first time thing, I wouldn't want to attempt something as fiddly as an Ergodox on my first time soldering...

    Congratulations on fixing most of your problems with the board though. That's probably the most important part of hobby electronics, learning how to solve the problems that you created...  :)

    Flux may be your friend if solder won't stick to the diodes. I've never had a problem with solder not sticking to the leads of a resistor/diode though... They are pre-tinned, solder sticks to them like crazy in my experience. I hope you're not trying to solder to the glass part or something.  :eek:

    BTW if you're lifting pads, your iron may be too hot, or more likely you are waaaay too slow when soldering. I ended up desoldering and resoldering the switches and diodes on the  thumbs of my Ergodox at least three times, and none of my pads have lifted.

    I'd suggest watching some videos on youtube on soldering.

    If you're careful, you can use a wire to simulate the enter switch being pressed, to try to identify where the problem lies. You can also short between the row and column pins on the teensy or IO Expander.

    Edit: You should post a picture of the board around the Enter switch and we can walk you through what you need to do.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Mon, 17 March 2014, 02:51:09
    When I hear "flux," I think of microwaves, bogus time travel, a forgettable movie with Charlize Theron, and an exceptionally unpleasant gastrointestinal disorder, none of which sound like what you're referring to.

    The iron should be fine, it's 120W 30V non-temperature controlled. Sounds close to what the assembly guide recommends.

    I watched an ErgoDox assembly video, but that guy had access to some toys I'd never seen, including some sort of magic soldering wand that doesn't have to touch anything (I assume it blasts hot air or something).

    Not sure what glass part you're talking about. I haven't been trying to solder on the acrylic plates, if that's what you mean.

    I attached some images. This lens isn't exactly made for macro photography, so forgive the cruddy image quality. I can try and get some better shots if you need them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 17 March 2014, 03:03:00
    Through hole soldering doesn't get much easier or harder than the ErgoDox, so I would say it is as good a first time project as anything. Too large and expensive to mess up perhaps, but that is another story. De-soldering and re-soldering some old scrap through hole board could be the best first time project. De-soldering is not always that easy though.

    The SMD diodes on the ErgoDox is another story, but through hole diodes is a good option. The large ground plane can be a bit unforgiving as well with a weak iron.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 17 March 2014, 08:27:05
    When I hear "flux," I think of microwaves, bogus time travel, a forgettable movie with Charlize Theron, and an exceptionally unpleasant gastrointestinal disorder, none of which sound like what you're referring to.

    The iron should be fine, it's 120W 30V non-temperature controlled. Sounds close to what the assembly guide recommends.

    Well, there's your problem. Electronics irons are usually in the range of 20-60W! And temperature controlled is best. I'd be willing to bet that you fried the diode, at the very least. And from looking at the black burn marks on the pcb, I'd be willing to bet that the pads haven't fared too well either.

    Quote
    I watched an ErgoDox assembly video, but that guy had access to some toys I'd never seen, including some sort of magic soldering wand that doesn't have to touch anything (I assume it blasts hot air or something).

    Not sure what glass part you're talking about. I haven't been trying to solder on the acrylic plates, if that's what you mean.

    I thought you were using through-hole diodes, which are like a glass cylinder. I didn't realize you were using smd diodes, which IMO are too fiddly for a beginner to start with. Especially a beginner with a 120W iron!

    Quote
    I attached some images. This lens isn't exactly made for macro photography, so forgive the cruddy image quality. I can try and get some better shots if you need them.

    Yeah, those pics weren't great, but I can still see that the board is really burnt. You might need a bit of skill to fix it up, and I don't think a 120W non-temp controlled iron will give you that skill. A good digital temp controlled soldering station is cheap from china nowadays, and a great investment really. I got one new from ebay with a magic hot air gun (great for smd stuff using solder paste) for US$75 or so, delivered!

    Try (carefully!) using a piece of hookup wire or a bent paperclip to short out the pins between the purple arrows that I've marked below to simulate the switch being pressed. If that works, it's either the diode or the switch that isn't working. I'd bet on the diode from the amount of heat that must have been applied to it.

    Don't worry, diodes are cheap as anything, just get some through-hole 1N4148's, snip the leads short and use those. They'll be easier for a beginner. If you get some, you can actually just solder them between the green arrow points on the picture and avoid the destroyed pads on the board. Quickly remove the ruined smd diode before that.

    [attach=1]

    Don't worry, it doesn't look great, but it looks fixable.

    edit: looks to me like there could be a short between the diode and the ground plane, where the green arrows are on this pic:

    [attach=2]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Mon, 17 March 2014, 12:26:33
    The MD guide mentioned through-hole and surface-mount diodes, the former being discouraged due to "spacing problems." It said the ergodox kit comes with both, but I didn't get any through-hole ones at all, just the surface-mount ones.

    I bought the iron in a "learn to solder" kit from someone on this website, who said it'd be fine for the ergodox. Not sure why he'd send one so much higher than necessary.

    I'd like to get a better iron, but I'm not spending any more money on this thing until I know that it will work when I'm done. I've already dropped $400 on the ergodox kit plus the soldering kit.

    Apart from the superfluous quantity, are these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AUDOQMU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A28PCZ3GGXGBES) what I'm looking for? It's got the model number you mentioned, but I'm not sure what the other specifications mean.

    Sorry for all the trouble. If I'd known it'd be this much of a pain I wouldn't have bought it, but everyone I spoke to swore up and down it was easy enough for a beginner to do in an afternoon.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 17 March 2014, 12:46:01
    The iron should be fine, it's 120W 30V non-temperature controlled. Sounds close to what the assembly guide recommends.
    I think you got the Watts and Volts mixed up. You mean 30W? The voltage should only match what is in your outlet: 120V in the US, 220V-240V in Europe.
    I think that the wattage of the temperature-controlled soldering irons is not so important: it limits what maximum temperature it can provide.

    I use a 15W soldering iron that is not temperature-controlled and it worked fine. It only needs a minute to get hot enough before I start using it. I have had problems with a 30W iron destroying the pads on a PCB when I have used it to desolder switches.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 17 March 2014, 12:47:59
    What iron are you using?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Mon, 17 March 2014, 13:50:59
    Yeah, it was 120V/30W, that was just a typo on my part. Sorry about that. It's an Edsyn CL1481.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Mon, 17 March 2014, 13:56:50
    That iron is part of the GeekHackers LTS kit, so it should be fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 17 March 2014, 17:13:50
    I bought the iron in a "learn to solder" kit from someone on this website, who said it'd be fine for the ergodox. Not sure why he'd send one so much higher than necessary.

    I'd like to get a better iron, but I'm not spending any more money on this thing until I know that it will work when I'm done. I've already dropped $400 on the ergodox kit plus the soldering kit.

    Apart from the superfluous quantity, are these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AUDOQMU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A28PCZ3GGXGBES) what I'm looking for? It's got the model number you mentioned, but I'm not sure what the other specifications mean.

    Those are the correct diodes. I found them for cheaper on ebay though!

    The iron should be fine, it's 120W 30V non-temperature controlled. Sounds close to what the assembly guide recommends.
    I think you got the Watts and Volts mixed up. You mean 30W? The voltage should only match what is in your outlet: 120V in the US, 220V-240V in Europe.
    I think that the wattage of the temperature-controlled soldering irons is not so important: it limits what maximum temperature it can provide.

    I use a 15W soldering iron that is not temperature-controlled and it worked fine. It only needs a minute to get hot enough before I start using it. I have had problems with a 30W iron destroying the pads on a PCB when I have used it to desolder switches.

    He said it was a non-temperature controlled iron.

    Aah, stupid me, I did think it was very weird that he said that he had a 30V iron, but didn't think twice about it (we use 240V here in Australia so I didn't connect that it should have been 120V). 30W should be fine but is still on the high side for small components. You shouldn't hold the iron on the pads or components for ages or they will get damaged. I can tell from the dark burn marks on your pcb that you took waay too long on some pads. Try for about 2-3 seconds for each join. As soon as the solder goes liquid and the component has touched the liquid, you can remove the iron. You get faster the more you do it. It's pretty easy with a bit of practice (which the 80 switches on an ergodox will provide plenty of!).

    Good luck. It's very satisfying when you get your first project working.  :thumb:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Mon, 17 March 2014, 18:21:08
    I should have the new diodes by Wednesday, I'll let you know how it goes. I'm going to try using it as is until then, mismatched keycaps and all.

    Ran into a new, less electrical problem trying to put it together: the spikes on the Teensy are so long the acrylic plates won't close on the right hand. Is it safe to snip and/or bend them back to make it fit?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Mon, 17 March 2014, 18:28:24
    Snip them off as close to the cone of the solder as you can manage.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Wed, 19 March 2014, 19:59:08
    Got the diodes today, and I managed to get it working. It was harder than it probably had to be, since I had to solder through-hole diodes without the luxury of, y'know, going through the hole, but I managed. Everything is working now.

    The board is a joy to type in, as I had hoped. Using the TECK for the past 8 months has eliminated most of the adjustment phase most people go through (the grid layout, using only one thumb for space, etc.), but it's still going to take a lot of getting used to. Most notably:

    1) It slides around. The split layout is genius, since you can set it wherever you want it limited only by the length of the cable (I may try to connect mine to the arms of a recliner so that I can work from the comfort of my imperial throne), but once you get it where you want it, it'd be nice to keep it there.

    2) Vertical incline. I'd lay money this thing is supposed to be used slanted a little bit upward, and I don't know how to get it that way, assuming the reclining throne doesn't pan out. I've seen some models with fancy wooden wrist wrests, but I think those were custom-made or part of a limited run.

    3) Wrist pain. This is probably just a matter of getting used to it, but my thumbs feel as if they're in very unnatural positions, having to stretch this far. Also, it's tricky reaching the modifier keys above the backspace, enter, space, and forward delete keys, and very difficult reaching the Home and Page Up keys. I have to move my entire hand to get to those ones.

    4) Filthy rat-tails. Any chance of making this whole thing cordless?

    Thanks again for all the help getting it working.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Wed, 19 March 2014, 20:27:33
    I've been wanting to go wireless with my EDs for months.  Closest thing I found (which doesn't work, btw, so don't waste your time or money) is the Bluetooth adapter from Handheld Scientific.  http://handheldsci.com/kb  Again, don't bother, it doesn't output enough power.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Jette on Wed, 19 March 2014, 21:31:32
    No-go for the USB part, then, but what about the pieces that look like a male-to-male 3.5mm audio jack? Any way we could get rid of that thing?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 19 March 2014, 22:50:36
    No-go for the USB part, then, but what about the pieces that look like a male-to-male 3.5mm audio jack? Any way we could get rid of that thing?

    Great that you got your board working, congratulations!

    You should get some rubber feet for it, if it's sliding around. Mine came with them (from czarek).

    That cable is called the trrs cable. What would you want to put between the hands? They have to talk to each other via some mechanism. Wireless between the hands, when you're still using a usb cable, would be overly complicated IMO.

    I've been wanting to go wireless with my EDs for months.  Closest thing I found (which doesn't work, btw, so don't waste your time or money) is the Bluetooth adapter from Handheld Scientific.  http://handheldsci.com/kb  Again, don't bother, it doesn't output enough power.

    There is the Bluefruit EZ-Key (https://www.adafruit.com/products/1535#Description) as a bluetooth controller. It's of no use to me if it doesn't support nkro though, so I still need to investigate that. I asked on the Adafruit forums (http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=50782), and it does sound like it may be technically possible, but I'm still not sure how I'd get nkro over bluetooth working with the ErgoDox. I'm running the TMK firmware for nkro, btw.

    I think I'd have to modify the TMK firmware somewhat to send the right raw HID reports to that board to convert it to bluetooth. This is currently beyond my understanding of how USB keyboards work.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Thu, 20 March 2014, 03:32:57
    Well, if we can't get nkro, maybe something like 5-6kro would be handy enough?  I'm even less familiar than you, but I ask a lot of questions. ;-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 20 March 2014, 17:21:21
    Well, if we can't get nkro, maybe something like 5-6kro would be handy enough?  I'm even less familiar than you, but I ask a lot of questions. ;-)

    I'd say that it'd be really easy to get 6kro working with the EZ-Key. That's what it's designed for.

    Unfortunately I have to have nkro for stenography (chorded typing) using Plover.

    Edit: Damn, I was just going to buy one, but it's out of stock. For reference, here is the info on how to send it keys by serial (http://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-bluefruit-ez-key-diy-bluetooth-hid-keyboard/sending-keys-via-serial) - there's a lot if info and even an Arduino test sketch there.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Thu, 20 March 2014, 19:21:45
    Well, if we can't get nkro, maybe something like 5-6kro would be handy enough?  I'm even less familiar than you, but I ask a lot of questions. ;-)

    I'd say that it'd be really easy to get 6kro working with the EZ-Key. That's what it's designed for.

    Unfortunately I have to have nkro for stenography (chorded typing) using Plover.

    Edit: Damn, I was just going to buy one, but it's out of stock. For reference, here is the info on how to send it keys by serial (http://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-bluefruit-ez-key-diy-bluetooth-hid-keyboard/sending-keys-via-serial) - there's a lot if info and even an Arduino test sketch there.

    Oh, look... you linked an article written in Greek (or it might as well be for all of it I understood).  :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Fri, 21 March 2014, 01:38:41
    new round of Ergodox gb at Massdrop (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox)
    there's indication that the new backlit pcb for ergodox is still in testing process and will need more sophisticated or complicated soldering method...anyone knows about the difference for the backlit pcb version?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Forvak on Fri, 21 March 2014, 06:03:32
    Hello all.

    Is there anyone in the South Bay Area who would be willing to let me do a test paragraph on their ErgoDox? I'm going to get *some* nice keyboard in the next month or so, but definitely need to try things out first.

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Sat, 22 March 2014, 12:02:18
    Anyone had a single row on their boards not working (SW4:7 through 4:13 on the left hand)? I suppose it is a faulty IO expander, since everything else is working absolutely fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thechemist on Sat, 22 March 2014, 12:55:21
    Anyone had a single row on their boards not working (SW4:7 through 4:13 on the left hand)? I suppose it is a faulty IO expander, since everything else is working absolutely fine.

    Start another thread and post pictures of the LH front and back pcb ( I/O expander front and back, and diodes on row4 )
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 23 March 2014, 05:28:25
    Anyone had a single row on their boards not working (SW4:7 through 4:13 on the left hand)? I suppose it is a faulty IO expander, since everything else is working absolutely fine.

    I would not suspect the IO expander first. I would think first that that row line was shorted to 5V or another row line somehow. I would check along these tracks (in red).

    [attach=1]

    and

    [attach=2]

    The rows are held at 5V until a key is pressed, then that part of the scan goes low. Here's an oscilloscope scan of the row line for the left thumbswitches, this is with me holding down all 6 thumbswitches. You can see it scanning every switch along the row individually. I assume the row that you're looking at is the same:

    [attach=3]

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Sun, 23 March 2014, 08:45:00
    This is how the left hand looks like, I am now going to trace the lines a bit.

    (http://i.imgur.com/1kX89p0.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/NabxyGi.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thechemist on Sun, 23 March 2014, 14:00:33
    This is how the left hand looks like, I am now going to trace the lines a bit.

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/1kX89p0.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/NabxyGi.jpg)


    Picture of the underside is sort of out of focus when you zoom in but 4:7 is missing a diode; check 4:10 and see if that works.

    Edit: I did a continuity test and row4 corresponds to 4th pin from top left if you are looking from the back ( i have circled it in red ). Reflow that pin and see if that helps.

    (http://i.imgur.com/7NkcbF9.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Sun, 23 March 2014, 14:34:17
    I took this picture before all diodes have been soldered on, so don't wonder why some are missing in there  ;)
    I am afraid I have damaged the USB connector now from all the plugging in and out, my right hand is at ~3V now...
    Can you do me a favor and have a quick look at the voltage between the IO expander the the left hand rows? If I remember correctly, I have seen a voltage as low as ~4V before the USB connector went ape****.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 25 March 2014, 00:41:39
    This is how the left hand looks like, I am now going to trace the lines a bit.

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/1kX89p0.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/NabxyGi.jpg)


    Picture of the underside is sort of out of focus when you zoom in but 4:7 is missing a diode; check 4:10 and see if that works.

    Edit: I did a continuity test and row4 corresponds to 4th pin from top left if you are looking from the back ( i have circled it in red ). Reflow that pin and see if that helps.

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/7NkcbF9.jpg)


    Isn't it the 3rd pin from top left? I had the track highlighted in red on the image I posted a couple of posts back.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 25 March 2014, 00:43:14
    I took this picture before all diodes have been soldered on, so don't wonder why some are missing in there  ;)
    I am afraid I have damaged the USB connector now from all the plugging in and out, my right hand is at ~3V now...
    Can you do me a favor and have a quick look at the voltage between the IO expander the the left hand rows? If I remember correctly, I have seen a voltage as low as ~4V before the USB connector went ape****.

    Sorry, I'm not sure. Where do you want us to measure between?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Thechemist on Tue, 25 March 2014, 02:20:38
    This is how the left hand looks like, I am now going to trace the lines a bit.

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/1kX89p0.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/NabxyGi.jpg)


    Picture of the underside is sort of out of focus when you zoom in but 4:7 is missing a diode; check 4:10 and see if that works.

    Edit: I did a continuity test and row4 corresponds to 4th pin from top left if you are looking from the back ( i have circled it in red ). Reflow that pin and see if that helps.

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/7NkcbF9.jpg)


    Isn't it the 3rd pin from top left? I had the track highlighted in red on the image I posted a couple of posts back.

    Third pad for the teensy, fourth pad for the i/o expander.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Tue, 25 March 2014, 14:45:04
    Completely resoldering the USB and IO expander seems to have fixed the problem all along! Happily typing on Dox #2 now :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 25 March 2014, 20:08:25
    Completely resoldering the USB and IO expander seems to have fixed the problem all along! Happily typing on Dox #2 now :)

    Great news!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Wed, 26 March 2014, 04:36:57
    Reverting my assumption, the whole left hand's connection is quite flaky and has failed on me several times during this morning. The right hand side is still working without problems :/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 26 March 2014, 04:53:09
    Reverting my assumption, the whole left hand's connection is quite flaky and has failed on me several times during this morning. The right hand side is still working without problems :/

    Oh, bad luck. The obvious suspect in that case would be the trrs connectors/cable then.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bisl on Wed, 26 March 2014, 12:45:08
    ESD can cause strange EMI problems. The discharge doesn't
    need to be to/from the keyboard for there to be problems.
    One simple way to generate a nice wideband EMI source is
    to use a coil/solenoid and energize it with a D-cell battery.
    Holding one side of the connection steady, keep making
    and breaking the other connection so that you generate sparks.
    If you do this near your keyboard and it causes problems then
    you have demonstrated an EMC problem, and one possible
    reason for the keyboard to experience strange symptoms.

    I've heard of products suffering resets and other problems from
    simply moving your body on a cloth seat - I've seen this personally
    as well. At least here in the frozen north, this time of year is when
    these issues will show as the humidity is so low that ESD is much
    more frequent and energetic.

    Try it out! Post your results!

    Another possible solution: Put a humidifier in your room and see
    if the problem goes away.

    Hi all! Haven't been around in a while, but I want to chime in to say that both my wife and I experienced these problems, and both of us came to the same conclusion as this: static. Our place is very dry (Chicago winter yay) and even with a humidifier it's still a problem. Plus our desk chairs at home are cloth, so we're exceedingly susceptible to this. Our solution is just to yank the USB and replace to reboot the keyboard--it's annoying, but it's a 5-second fix so it's tolerable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 26 March 2014, 13:00:38
    Yes, I'm doing that too, although yank the connector off a USB hub instead of off the Ergodox so I don't wear out that delicate connector!

    The incidences where my Ergodox freezes have actually gone down, now happening maybe once a week.
    ... But I'm really careful not to drag my feet on the floor!

    I do wonder if there is some pin on the teensy or something that we could ground, to resolve the issue.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Wed, 26 March 2014, 21:29:11
    I ended up picking up some ESD circuits from digikey and have the schematics to wire them for protecting the USB circut, but it's hard to solder it in since they are surface mount and I don't have pads to solder them to. That and I just don't have time right now.

    My ergodox actually has some sort of fried usb component, as it will only work when connected to an external hub. Direct connect to the PC does not work. So my eventual plan is wire the ESD and test it, then swap in the new teensy I picked up. For now I picked up an ESD Mat and have gotten in the habit of touching that before the keyboard, which has ceased any problems with the keyboard needing an unplug/replug (an issue I've also had).

    The next ergodox revision should just have ESD built into it, or at least the wiring to make it an option.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 26 March 2014, 22:20:25
    Some usb cables have that kind of cylindrical filter? thing around them, would that help with anything?

    I haven't had any problems with mine from an ESD standpoint. I've had other weird problems (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.0) though.

    Do you have an aluminum case or something?

    I'd be surprised if something fried in the teensy would only have the effect of causing it to not be able to be used without a hub. Could it be some kind of driver issue with you motherboard usb chipset? Or some kind of usb power issue? Is it a powered hub that you're using?

    I'd suggest trying it on another pc with a different chipset without a hub.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Wed, 26 March 2014, 22:31:43
    The cylindrical filter is called a choke or ferrite and works by blocking frequency ranges, typically high frequency noise picked up from RF stuff and such, just be sure that your USB signal frequencies are not blocked by the choke. You pick them based on what you want to filter/not filter and this determines sizes, etc.


    Some usb cables have that kind of cylindrical filter? thing around them, would that help with anything?

    I haven't had any problems with mine from an ESD standpoint. I've had other weird problems (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54288.0) though.

    Do you have an aluminum case or something?

    I'd be surprised if something fried in the teensy would only have the effect of causing it to not be able to be used without a hub. Could it be some kind of driver issue with you motherboard usb chipset? Or some kind of usb power issue? Is it a powered hub that you're using?

    I'd suggest trying it on another pc with a different chipset without a hub.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Thu, 27 March 2014, 00:40:16
    I've been working on a revision with built in ESD protection,  along with some other features.  I've been stalled by some other work. Once that is done I will get back to it. I'll post the progress thus far, and if anybody wants they can give the track routing a try themselves.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Thu, 27 March 2014, 03:12:57
    The cylindrical filter is called a choke or ferrite and works by blocking frequency ranges, typically high frequency noise picked up from RF stuff and such, just be sure that your USB signal frequencies are not blocked by the choke. You pick them based on what you want to filter/not filter and this determines sizes, etc.


    Uhm, that's not how ferrite cores work  ;) They are not used to filter out immission into the cable, they are used to prevent the cable to work as an antenna for spurious HF emissions FROM the cable. And of course, they do not "block" signals inside of the cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 27 March 2014, 03:43:17
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Thu, 27 March 2014, 03:48:10
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 27 March 2014, 04:15:53
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Thu, 27 March 2014, 04:23:44
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?

    The current revision of the PCB is uniform and can be used with both sides! :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 27 March 2014, 04:47:08
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?

    The current revision of the PCB is uniform and can be used with both sides! :)

    Ah! That's exactly what I needed to know. Much appreciated.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Thu, 27 March 2014, 15:54:15
    I think you and I are saying the same thing or at least I hope so otherwise my 5 years of working with electronic control systems for plasma arcs/high frequency/high voltage systems was a big waste :)

    Ferrites prevent a cable/conductor from "conducting" certain frequencies by absorbing or reflecting them regardless of the source, the term conducting is kinda odd for HT at this point since the HF signals are actually travelling on the surface of the conductor.

    The cylindrical filter is called a choke or ferrite and works by blocking frequency ranges, typically high frequency noise picked up from RF stuff and such, just be sure that your USB signal frequencies are not blocked by the choke. You pick them based on what you want to filter/not filter and this determines sizes, etc.


    Uhm, that's not how ferrite cores work  ;) They are not used to filter out immission into the cable, they are used to prevent the cable to work as an antenna for spurious HF emissions FROM the cable. And of course, they do not "block" signals inside of the cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 27 March 2014, 17:50:22
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?

    The current revision of the PCB is uniform and can be used with both sides! :)

    Ah! That's exactly what I needed to know. Much appreciated.

    If you were just going to use a left hand by itself, wouldn't you need to mount the usb connector/teensy on the underside of the board? That would be hard to fit inside a case...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Thu, 27 March 2014, 19:58:47
    Do you have an aluminum case or something?

    I'd be surprised if something fried in the teensy would only have the effect of causing it to not be able to be used without a hub. Could it be some kind of driver issue with you motherboard usb chipset? Or some kind of usb power issue? Is it a powered hub that you're using?

    I'd suggest trying it on another pc with a different chipset without a hub.

    Yes, aluminum top layer. And yep, I had the same thought as you, but three different computers and all the same problem with Windows not picking it up properly unless I use a hub. Same computers with a new teensy: no problem.

    It's super annoying. Not looking forward to desoldering all those pins for the teensy. But it works well enough for now, so whatever.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: fisofo on Thu, 27 March 2014, 19:59:24
    I've been working on a revision with built in ESD protection,  along with some other features.  I've been stalled by some other work. Once that is done I will get back to it. I'll post the progress thus far, and if anybody wants they can give the track routing a try themselves.

    Good to hear! That'll be really nice.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Fri, 28 March 2014, 02:07:52
    I think you and I are saying the same thing or at least I hope so otherwise my 5 years of working with electronic control systems for plasma arcs/high frequency/high voltage systems was a big waste :)

    Ferrites prevent a cable/conductor from "conducting" certain frequencies by absorbing or reflecting them regardless of the source, the term conducting is kinda odd for HT at this point since the HF signals are actually travelling on the surface of the conductor.

    The cylindrical filter is called a choke or ferrite and works by blocking frequency ranges, typically high frequency noise picked up from RF stuff and such, just be sure that your USB signal frequencies are not blocked by the choke. You pick them based on what you want to filter/not filter and this determines sizes, etc.


    Uhm, that's not how ferrite cores work  ;) They are not used to filter out immission into the cable, they are used to prevent the cable to work as an antenna for spurious HF emissions FROM the cable. And of course, they do not "block" signals inside of the cable.

    I was just referring to the part "just be sure that your USB signal frequencies are not blocked by the choke" of your post, which suggests that the ferrite core can somehow filter signals inside of the cable, which is obviously not true.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Fri, 28 March 2014, 02:52:08
    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?

    The current revision of the PCB is uniform and can be used with both sides! :)

    Ah! That's exactly what I needed to know. Much appreciated.

    If you were just going to use a left hand by itself, wouldn't you need to mount the usb connector/teensy on the underside of the board? That would be hard to fit inside a case...

    I have a question. A few actually, but they all lead to the same place.

    Is it possible to just have the left hand unit running at any time?

    I'm thinking that I can reverse the PCBs (possible?) and reverse solder everything on.

    The reason I ask is that I might only be using one side effectively when gaming, and the option to do so would be nice.

    Regarding the fact that my left hand is currently acting funny and becomes unresponsive, and the right hand still works after unplugging the left side, I assume you might be able to only run the teensy/usb connector side at any given time.

    Question is, will I be able to just use the right side, flip it around and just use one side instead of both? Kinda like a Razer Orbweaver (gasp!) or the equivalent?

    The current revision of the PCB is uniform and can be used with both sides! :)

    Ah! That's exactly what I needed to know. Much appreciated.

    If you were just going to use a left hand by itself, wouldn't you need to mount the usb connector/teensy on the underside of the board? That would be hard to fit inside a case...

    I'll solder on the other side of the PCB. I think.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Fri, 28 March 2014, 05:25:39
    ...
    I'll solder on the other side of the PCB. I think.
    you'll want to have a trawl through this loooooong old thread. there's been discussion about doing a right hander previously. iirc you may need to modify the firmware due to things lining up differently when some stuff is mounted underneath.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 31 March 2014, 05:35:14
    ...
    I'll solder on the other side of the PCB. I think.
    you'll want to have a trawl through this loooooong old thread. there's been discussion about doing a right hander previously. iirc you may need to modify the firmware due to things lining up differently when some stuff is mounted underneath.

    No trawling! I'll just solder everything upside down (right polarity though) and pray it works. As for the firmware, I'd just slowly poke through the settings. I imagine it'll be upside down or something in the end.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Mon, 31 March 2014, 08:33:16
    No trawling! I'll just solder everything upside down (right polarity though) and pray it works. As for the firmware, I'd just slowly poke through the settings. I imagine it'll be upside down or something in the end.
    well, that's an option too ;) just as long as you know to expect to have fun and games in code with the firmware once it's all done. good luck!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Mon, 31 March 2014, 16:26:55
    The board is a joy to type in, as I had hoped. Using the TECK for the past 8 months has eliminated most of the adjustment phase most people go through (the grid layout, using only one thumb for space, etc.), but it's still going to take a lot of getting used to. Most notably:

    1) It slides around. The split layout is genius, since you can set it wherever you want it limited only by the length of the cable (I may try to connect mine to the arms of a recliner so that I can work from the comfort of my imperial throne), but once you get it where you want it, it'd be nice to keep it there.

    Some have inserted the cap screws from the bottom, putting the nuts on top, and/or replaced those with M3 acorn nuts. You can find stick-on rubber bumper feet at hardware stores, just make sure they're thicker than what sticks out of the screws on the bottom. Another solution would be to get a couple cheap mousepads (the basic neoprene style would work well), or one big one (at least shoulder width).

    Quote
    2) Vertical incline. I'd lay money this thing is supposed to be used slanted a little bit upward, and I don't know how to get it that way, assuming the reclining throne doesn't pan out. I've seen some models with fancy wooden wrist wrests, but I think those were custom-made or part of a limited run.

    IMO, the simplest and easiest way of achieving tenting and/or tilt is to use the PCB standoffs I discovered at Radio Shack, with or without additional M3 screws inserted on the bottom -- see my previous posts here:

    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42231.msg923460#msg923460
    ...and here:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg980720#msg980720

    That also gives you another no-skid option by putting rubber caps on the standoffs/screws. Ultimately, I decided the negative-tilt was unnecessary and just maximized my tenting by using the longest M3 screws I could find at the hardware store, which happened to be Philips pan/cheese head type.

    Quote
    3) Wrist pain. This is probably just a matter of getting used to it, but my thumbs feel as if they're in very unnatural positions, having to stretch this far. Also, it's tricky reaching the modifier keys above the backspace, enter, space, and forward delete keys, and very difficult reaching the Home and Page Up keys. I have to move my entire hand to get to those ones.

    My hands are pretty tiny (I wear size small gloves), but once I got the boards properly positioned to match the position of my hands and fingers in a neutral, relaxed position, angled to put the nearest thumb keys directly under my thumbs, I have no issues with reaching the thumb keys. It may also help that I'm using DCS-/Cherry OEM-style keycaps with their top edge facing the main cluster for the nearest thumb keys, which puts the cap face as close as possible to the main cluster.

    As for the Home and PgUp keys, on a standard keyboard you probably had to move your entire hand at least somewhat to reach those anyway, but you can remap any custom layout you desire using Massdrop's ErgoDox Configurator (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/) -- e.g., here's the QWERTY layout with inverted-T arrow cluster I eventually settled on (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=S49G3K&hash=0e905ba4fdf5cfa427d58a73d8903023) after some real-world use and fine-tuning, and I really wanted to like this alternate layout I devised to put cursor/page nav keys on the thumb clusters (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=S49G3K&hash=98bd149a030a413d919c5b7e16ad2bd6), but ultimately I just wasn't patient enough to retrain myself to use the cursor arrow keys like that. It occurs to me now that a novel approach would assign Home/End and PgUp/PgDn to the 1.5x keys on the inboard columns, so you might play with that idea.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 31 March 2014, 20:31:33
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/01/eha9epyg.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 31 March 2014, 22:18:22
    Show Image
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/01/eha9epyg.jpg)


    ...and the journey begins!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 31 March 2014, 22:35:47
    No trawling! I'll just solder everything upside down (right polarity though) and pray it works. As for the firmware, I'd just slowly poke through the settings. I imagine it'll be upside down or something in the end.
    well, that's an option too ;) just as long as you know to expect to have fun and games in code with the firmware once it's all done. good luck!

    Oh yes, fun will be had!

    I'm already relishing the opportunity of soldering all my own switches, etc. so this will be my Magnum Opus. Or at least my first great work. :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Tue, 01 April 2014, 16:09:36
    is there a way to test with a multimeter if my smd and teensy/io-expander are soldered properly before i solder the switches? 

    this is the multimeter i own:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVYGZA/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    i soldered everything but the switches yesterday.  i am not confident about my work but i tried super duper hard and really focused on this bastard. i really hope everything works, if it does i am going to be so very very happy.  i would love to test my smd and usb cable soldering jobs though.

    i did not expect that usb connection from the teensy to be so difficult. that was a real bastard.


    also the plastic plate that comes with the massdrop order allows for switch tops to be opened if we want to swap out the springs afterwards right?  i just tracked down a bunch of binder clips that i think will work since i dont own a set of BEASTS SWITCH TOP TOOLS (which i want very badly).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 01 April 2014, 17:06:35
    I am not sure whether there are formal ways to test ergodox using a multimeter, but I use the following method:

    1. if you have everything ready but the switches, you can now attach your ergodox to the computer
    2. use a keyboard test program, I use xev in linux
    3. then use tweezers to short the holes for the switches, test each one of the switches, you will see which one is acting funny
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 01 April 2014, 19:39:40
    I am not sure whether there are formal ways to test ergodox using a multimeter, but I use the following method:

    1. if you have everything ready but the switches, you can now attach your ergodox to the computer
    2. use a keyboard test program, I use xev in linux
    3. then use tweezers to short the holes for the switches, test each one of the switches, you will see which one is acting funny

    +1, this is what I'd do. Make sure you know which layout the Ergodox is set to though, not all switches will send a key to the pc, eg if they are set as layer switching keys or something. I'd do a testing layout in the configurator and put that on the ergodox.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tjcaustin on Fri, 04 April 2014, 19:14:48
    So ergodox has been working fine since I finished it and then this morning, I wake up and it won't recognize inputs and I can't get the teensy into programming mode.

    Unplug it all, plug just the right hand back in and it works fine.  Plug the left hand in and I get a "too much power" USB shut down warning and no input recognized again.  Unplug left hand, right hand works.  Plug in just trrs cable, still ok, plug left hand in, and it's back to nothing.

    Considering it worked 18 hours ago, could it be something like the mcp or trrs port being faulty?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Fri, 04 April 2014, 21:09:59
    Measure the resistance with left side disconnected between the let side's pwr and gnd. Also try it with the the TRRS cable in the left side only. Maybe you'll get lucky and it will show a short that needs addressed. Then you'll have to find it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Sun, 06 April 2014, 18:59:56
    my dox is complete and it is ****ing awesome. i really suck at typing with it though...

    is there a prefered way to keep this bastard from moving around so much when i type with it?  this guy slides around like crazy when i type. this message took me about 2 minutes to type and there were a **** ton of typos.

    (http://i.imgur.com/JvwKmR9.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Sun, 06 April 2014, 19:47:17
    my dox is complete and it is ****ing awesome. i really suck at typing with it though...

    is there a prefered way to keep this bastard from moving around so much when i type with it?  this guy slides around like crazy when i type. this message took me about 2 minutes to type and there were a **** ton of typos.

    Some people have put rubber feet on it. I have it raised with larger screws, but still have the problem. Used some rubber hollow feet I had from some equipment and put them on, it has reduced a lot the moving... but still far from solid.

    What type of wrist rest did you add? are those the Kinesis wrist pads?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Sun, 06 April 2014, 20:48:38
    my dox is complete and it is ****ing awesome. i really suck at typing with it though...

    is there a prefered way to keep this bastard from moving around so much when i type with it?  this guy slides around like crazy when i type. this message took me about 2 minutes to type and there were a **** ton of typos.

    Some people have put rubber feet on it. I have it raised with larger screws, but still have the problem. Used some rubber hollow feet I had from some equipment and put them on, it has reduced a lot the moving... but still far from solid.

    What type of wrist rest did you add? are those the Kinesis wrist pads?

    i got the pads here:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

    these things are awesome. they stick to my aluminum case really well but have no glue inside them.  they are comfortable too.

    well with what i am reading online about the dox sliding around so much i think i will modify some kensis accessory thing i have for tenting and hope that helps with the sliding issue. 

    what size screws come with the massdrop kit?  what the hell is M3?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Mon, 07 April 2014, 01:43:07
    my dox is complete and it is ****ing awesome. i really suck at typing with it though...

    is there a prefered way to keep this bastard from moving around so much when i type with it?  this guy slides around like crazy when i type. this message took me about 2 minutes to type and there were a **** ton of typos.

    Some people have put rubber feet on it. I have it raised with larger screws, but still have the problem. Used some rubber hollow feet I had from some equipment and put them on, it has reduced a lot the moving... but still far from solid.

    What type of wrist rest did you add? are those the Kinesis wrist pads?

    i got the pads here:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

    these things are awesome. they stick to my aluminum case really well but have no glue inside them.  they are comfortable too.

    well with what i am reading online about the dox sliding around so much i think i will modify some kensis accessory thing i have for tenting and hope that helps with the sliding issue. 

    what size screws come with the massdrop kit?  what the hell is M3?

    It's either a damn fine car (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/2009_BMW_M3_coupe.jpg), or a metric screw size. (http://www.metrication.com/engineering/fastener.html)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Mon, 07 April 2014, 01:45:27


    i got the pads here:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00897D3OQ/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

    these things are awesome. they stick to my aluminum case really well but have no glue inside them.  they are comfortable too.

    well with what i am reading online about the dox sliding around so much i think i will modify some kensis accessory thing i have for tenting and hope that helps with the sliding issue. 

    what size screws come with the massdrop kit?  what the hell is M3?

    The M3 is the type of screw. With that you know what screw to buy. If you have the Kinesis accessory, go ahead and use it with velcro. I do not have one, but looks like perfect for it.

    Thanks for the URL for the palm rests.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rebus on Mon, 07 April 2014, 09:38:52
    I am really tempted to buy one (when it will be available again), but I have no skills in electronics and soldering. Is the assembly affordable without particular skills?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 07 April 2014, 14:52:54
    I am really tempted to buy one (when it will be available again), but I have no skills in electronics and soldering. Is the assembly affordable without particular skills?

    yea it isnt hard but you need to be patient.  putting one of these together takes some time.

    as far as gear it can be expensive or not.  it is up to you how good your iron will be.  also you will need a small soldering tip so make sure your iron can support different tips.

    i ran into a few issues when i was building mine but goddamn am i happy with my efforts.  people are jelly in the office today.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Mon, 07 April 2014, 19:48:42
    yea it isnt hard but you need to be patient.  putting one of these together takes some time.

    as far as gear it can be expensive or not.  it is up to you how good your iron will be.  also you will need a small soldering tip so make sure your iron can support different tips.

    i ran into a few issues when i was building mine but goddamn am i happy with my efforts.  people are jelly in the office today.

    Your office must be different to mine, I haven't taken my 'dox there but my office mates would just be confused...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Mon, 07 April 2014, 23:08:55
    people are jelly in the office today.

    They must be a bunch of nerds. I doubt it will score any points on anyone working in a model agency.

    Also, Didn't your mom teach you not to take your toys to school? You may scratch it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Tue, 08 April 2014, 00:18:22
    i am thinking about super gluing down the costar stabs on the thumb cluster.  good or bad idea?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 08 April 2014, 04:51:29
    i am thinking about super gluing down the costar stabs on the thumb cluster.  good or bad idea?
    The fumes from superglue makes acrylic plastic foggy. If you don't care about that, then go ahead.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Tue, 08 April 2014, 05:18:08
    I am really tempted to buy one (when it will be available again), but I have no skills in electronics and soldering. Is the assembly affordable without particular skills?

    i wasn't a fan of soldering or DIY before i got into this mkb hobby.
    few months after getting my first mkb, i got myself a cheap but usable soldering station to remove some faulty switch on my keyboard.
    then i planned to assemble a custom keyboard myself although my experience is only up to desoldering switches (and watching keyboard assembly video by whitefiredragon on youtube)

    the pass few weeks, my new experience is making my own custom sleeved usb cable.

    yesterday my ergodox kit arrived, the moment i got home after work, eat dinner, and then my table is filled with all the tools that i have prepared prior to assemble ergodox and sprit's custom keyboard.

    i started at about 830pm. complete full assembly and troubleshooting at almost 3am. BUT i had a head start with stripping the mini-usb for teensy and stickers on my switch as i did those shortly after the massdrop GB ended in january. the miniusb stripping will take quite a lot of patience n time if you don't have the right tool (i did it with just a blunt wire cutter and a pair of scissors...SO HORRIBLE)

    my ergodox's soldering is very messy...i want to sandpaper my bottom acrylic case just to cover up my embarrassing soldering, or at least put something underneath to cover up.


    on a side note, my costar stabs seems to get stuck with the 2u keycaps and thus causing the whole stab to come off together...is this a problem with DSA profile only? without the stabs it's so wobbly...
     
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rebus on Tue, 08 April 2014, 06:22:16
    I am really tempted to buy one (when it will be available again), but I have no skills in electronics and soldering. Is the assembly affordable without particular skills?

    i wasn't a fan of soldering or DIY before i got into this mkb hobby.
    few months after getting my first mkb, i got myself a cheap but usable soldering station to remove some faulty switch on my keyboard.
    then i planned to assemble a custom keyboard myself although my experience is only up to desoldering switches (and watching keyboard assembly video by whitefiredragon on youtube)

    the pass few weeks, my new experience is making my own custom sleeved usb cable.

    yesterday my ergodox kit arrived, the moment i got home after work, eat dinner, and then my table is filled with all the tools that i have prepared prior to assemble ergodox and sprit's custom keyboard.

    i started at about 830pm. complete full assembly and troubleshooting at almost 3am. BUT i had a head start with stripping the mini-usb for teensy and stickers on my switch as i did those shortly after the massdrop GB ended in january. the miniusb stripping will take quite a lot of patience n time if you don't have the right tool (i did it with just a blunt wire cutter and a pair of scissors...SO HORRIBLE)

    my ergodox's soldering is very messy...i want to sandpaper my bottom acrylic case just to cover up my embarrassing soldering, or at least put something underneath to cover up.


    on a side note, my costar stabs seems to get stuck with the 2u keycaps and thus causing the whole stab to come off together...is this a problem with DSA profile only? without the stabs it's so wobbly...

    Aww that's not much encouraging! I hope they will offer assembly option again
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Tue, 08 April 2014, 10:09:15
    honestly one of the best things about the ergodox besides its amazing ergonomics is that we have to build it.  when you build something like this you own it more than any store bought product.  we know the ends and outs of these bad boys.  if something goes wrong i can fix it.  that is really ****ing cool.

    i have a lot of pride in my dox and learning to type on it is really fun. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: spspencer on Thu, 10 April 2014, 16:34:15
    honestly one of the best things about the ergodox besides its amazing ergonomics is that we have to build it.  when you build something like this you own it more than any store bought product.  we know the ends and outs of these bad boys.  if something goes wrong i can fix it.  that is really ****ing cool.

    i have a lot of pride in my dox and learning to type on it is really fun.

    Absolutely! :p
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 10 April 2014, 21:09:26
    Is there a schematic or something for the traces?  I have one switch that does not seem to work and we have tried almost everything to get it working.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:29:10
    honestly one of the best things about the ergodox besides its amazing ergonomics is that we have to build it.  when you build something like this you own it more than any store bought product.  we know the ends and outs of these bad boys.  if something goes wrong i can fix it.  that is really ****ing cool.

    i have a lot of pride in my dox and learning to type on it is really fun.

    As I posted when I completed my first ErgoDox, "Now I know how Luke must have felt when he fired up that green saber for the first time." :D

    As for the sliding around, I notice what appears to be a giant mousepad alongside it in your last pic; get another one like that to put under your ErgoDox, or a pair of standard-sized mousepads to put under each half. ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:46:20
    For those wanting labeled PBT keycaps in DSA profile suitable for rearranging into alternate/custom layouts, just thought I'd point out the Granite PBT DSA group buy on Signature Plastics' PimpMyKeyboard site (http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/deals/granite-set-pbt-dye-sub-dsa/), which comes as a base set of alphanum+symbol 1x caps (currently $37) with add-on sets of labeled/blank ErgoDox 1.5x/2x caps also available (currently $33 labeled set / $15 blank half-set), and a Pro Modifiers set including 1x and 1.5x modkey caps (currently $29.25 text labels / $45 icon labels).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 11 April 2014, 08:23:05
    Is there a schematic or something for the traces?  I have one switch that does not seem to work and we have tried almost everything to get it working.

    Based on my earlier inquiry, I am having a problem with my Ergodox and I cannot seem to fix it.  The "V" key just does not seem to work no matter what I do.  I have changed out the switch and double checked my layout, but nothing seems to get it working.  The only thing left to do that I can think of is put in a new diode or check if something is wrong with the traces.

    I am not the best at electronics troubleshooting, so any advice would help.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Fri, 11 April 2014, 10:40:52
    That one diode is reversed - That's my bet.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madereth on Fri, 11 April 2014, 11:00:29
    I've designed an ErgoDox tent that you can 3d print yourself and posted all the files here:

    https://github.com/adereth/ergodox-tent

    Feedback welcome!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 11 April 2014, 11:02:36
    That one diode is reversed - That's my bet.

    Thanks.  I will give that a try.  Do you think it's possible to have a bad diode in general?

    I wonder if it might have something to do with the switch, because I had to open the switch to put in a new spring.  Maybe I screwed something up with the internal contacts, but the other 75 switches are working fine, not to mention the hundreds of others switches that I have modified.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: justnits on Fri, 11 April 2014, 11:30:10
    That one diode is reversed - That's my bet.

    Thanks.  I will give that a try.  Do you think it's possible to have a bad diode in general?

    I wonder if it might have something to do with the switch, because I had to open the switch to put in a new spring.  Maybe I screwed something up with the internal contacts, but the other 75 switches are working fine, not to mention the hundreds of others switches that I have modified.

    i believe its got nothing to do with switch mod...but more on ur diodes on V switch area.

    on another note...i can't seem to get my led to work...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tjcaustin on Fri, 11 April 2014, 13:46:23
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: swill on Fri, 11 April 2014, 13:58:24
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    Is it possible you have a loose connection or a cold solder joint on your usb or controller connection? That is what I would check first on intermittent problems like this. I had a similar problem with a usb hub I was using. I took it apart and resoldered it all and that fixed my issues. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: squarefrog on Fri, 11 April 2014, 15:00:12
    I've designed an ErgoDox tent that you can 3d print yourself and posted all the files here:

    https://github.com/adereth/ergodox-tent

    Feedback welcome!

    Looks great!! I finished building my dox about 20 minutes ago, and a 3d printed tent was going to be my weekend job. Thanks for open sourcing :thumb:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Fri, 11 April 2014, 15:10:41
    That one diode is reversed - That's my bet.

    Thanks.  I will give that a try.  Do you think it's possible to have a bad diode in general?

    I wonder if it might have something to do with the switch, because I had to open the switch to put in a new spring.  Maybe I screwed something up with the internal contacts, but the other 75 switches are working fine, not to mention the hundreds of others switches that I have modified.

    If you suspect a bad switch you can always short the relevant points in the PCB with a wire to see if a keypress is registered. No need to remove or desolder anything to do this.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 11 April 2014, 15:22:50
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    i always connect the trrs cable before connecting the usb port. always.  do that from now on and you will most likely not see this behavior. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madereth on Fri, 11 April 2014, 15:34:14
    Looks great!! I finished building my dox about 20 minutes ago, and a 3d printed tent was going to be my weekend job. Thanks for open sourcing :thumb:
    Sweet.  Please let me know how it works out for you!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Fri, 11 April 2014, 15:48:51
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    i always connect the trrs cable before connecting the usb port. always.  do that from now on and you will most likely not see this behavior.

    Yes, I think the TRRS cable is not hot-pluggable, or at least not reliably so, as the plug shorts some circuits on the way in/out that would never be shorted in normal operation; always plug/unplug the TRRS jacks with the USB disconnected.

    BTW, which MX switch type did you get? I got the tactile/non-clicky Clears and love them so far. The ErgoDox plate design does allow changing switch plungers without desoldering switches (http://youtu.be/HysRQnJiupQ). You could get a batch of some other-type MX switches, swap the plungers, then resell the surplus switches with your old plungers if you like the new ones better.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tjcaustin on Fri, 11 April 2014, 16:33:22
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    Is it possible you have a loose connection or a cold solder joint on your usb or controller connection? That is what I would check first on intermittent problems like this. I had a similar problem with a usb hub I was using. I took it apart and resoldered it all and that fixed my issues.

    Reflowed all connections first time this happened.

    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    i always connect the trrs cable before connecting the usb port. always.  do that from now on and you will most likely not see this behavior.

    Yes, I think the TRRS cable is not hot-pluggable, or at least not reliably so, as the plug shorts some circuits on the way in/out that would never be shorted in normal operation; always plug/unplug the TRRS jacks with the USB disconnected.

    BTW, which MX switch type did you get? I got the tactile/non-clicky Clears and love them so far. The ErgoDox plate design does allow changing switch plungers without desoldering switches (http://youtu.be/HysRQnJiupQ). You could get a batch of some other-type MX switches, swap the plungers, then resell the surplus switches with your old plungers if you like the new ones better.

    Except for the fact that this happens while it's all plugged in and sitting.  As in, it works before I go to sleep, I leave everything plugged in and alone, I wake up and issue has arose with me.  So no, I think the order I plug the cables in isn't what's causing this.

    I have blues.  Blues are wonderful and magic and almost as good as topre.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 11 April 2014, 16:56:11
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    Is it possible you have a loose connection or a cold solder joint on your usb or controller connection? That is what I would check first on intermittent problems like this. I had a similar problem with a usb hub I was using. I took it apart and resoldered it all and that fixed my issues.

    Reflowed all connections first time this happened.

    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    i always connect the trrs cable before connecting the usb port. always.  do that from now on and you will most likely not see this behavior.

    Yes, I think the TRRS cable is not hot-pluggable, or at least not reliably so, as the plug shorts some circuits on the way in/out that would never be shorted in normal operation; always plug/unplug the TRRS jacks with the USB disconnected.

    BTW, which MX switch type did you get? I got the tactile/non-clicky Clears and love them so far. The ErgoDox plate design does allow changing switch plungers without desoldering switches (http://youtu.be/HysRQnJiupQ). You could get a batch of some other-type MX switches, swap the plungers, then resell the surplus switches with your old plungers if you like the new ones better.

    Except for the fact that this happens while it's all plugged in and sitting.  As in, it works before I go to sleep, I leave everything plugged in and alone, I wake up and issue has arose with me.  So no, I think the order I plug the cables in isn't what's causing this.

    I have blues.  Blues are wonderful and magic and almost as good as topre.

    TJ on some other ergodox thread people were reporting the same issues as you. TP4Tissue had the same thing over time if my memory serves me right and he ACTUALLY OFFERED GOOD ADVICE.  to eliminate this issue he bypassed the trrs connector port altogether and soldered the trrs cable directly to the pcb.  he had to get some female to female connector to connect the two halves together after this but he said it worked.

    i also remember many people saying that by far the biggest weakness in the ergodox design was the use of trrs. 

    maybe it is your trrs cable?  i just had to replace a faulty cable in the data center at work. not that that has anything to do with what we are talking about other than anecdotal evidence that cables go bad sometimes.  luckily you make cables all the time so try that before doing anything else drastic.

    i am using stock clears on my ergodox.  i bought a kit of 62g springs and lube to make ergoclears but frankly i dont see a need to.  stock clears are not nearly as heavy as i was led to believe.  these things are just plain nice.  especially with SA caps.  maybe i will mod them later (once i find a ****ing switch top opener tool).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tjcaustin on Fri, 11 April 2014, 18:07:52
    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    Is it possible you have a loose connection or a cold solder joint on your usb or controller connection? That is what I would check first on intermittent problems like this. I had a similar problem with a usb hub I was using. I took it apart and resoldered it all and that fixed my issues.

    Reflowed all connections first time this happened.

    You know what's super irritating? Intermittent problems.

    Sometimes my ergo works great, sometimes it don't.  The scenario plays out like this:

    I'll use ergodox most of a day, go to bed, wake up and ergodox won't respond to anything at all.  Other keyboards in the same USB port will, using ergo in different port won't.  A day or three later when I go to do diagnostics, I plug it in and everything works again for a couple days.  Sometimes, I can plug in the right hand and it works, then the entire thing turns off when I plug left hand in.

    I have a spare teensy here as well as two trrs plugs and the left hand I/O chip as well to try swapping things around, but I dunno if I'm going to keep it at this point as I prefer my topre switch feels.

    i always connect the trrs cable before connecting the usb port. always.  do that from now on and you will most likely not see this behavior.

    Yes, I think the TRRS cable is not hot-pluggable, or at least not reliably so, as the plug shorts some circuits on the way in/out that would never be shorted in normal operation; always plug/unplug the TRRS jacks with the USB disconnected.

    BTW, which MX switch type did you get? I got the tactile/non-clicky Clears and love them so far. The ErgoDox plate design does allow changing switch plungers without desoldering switches (http://youtu.be/HysRQnJiupQ). You could get a batch of some other-type MX switches, swap the plungers, then resell the surplus switches with your old plungers if you like the new ones better.

    Except for the fact that this happens while it's all plugged in and sitting.  As in, it works before I go to sleep, I leave everything plugged in and alone, I wake up and issue has arose with me.  So no, I think the order I plug the cables in isn't what's causing this.

    I have blues.  Blues are wonderful and magic and almost as good as topre.

    TJ on some other ergodox thread people were reporting the same issues as you. TP4Tissue had the same thing over time if my memory serves me right and he ACTUALLY OFFERED GOOD ADVICE.  to eliminate this issue he bypassed the trrs connector port altogether and soldered the trrs cable directly to the pcb.  he had to get some female to female connector to connect the two halves together after this but he said it worked.

    i also remember many people saying that by far the biggest weakness in the ergodox design was the use of trrs. 

    maybe it is your trrs cable?  i just had to replace a faulty cable in the data center at work. not that that has anything to do with what we are talking about other than anecdotal evidence that cables go bad sometimes.  luckily you make cables all the time so try that before doing anything else drastic.

    i am using stock clears on my ergodox.  i bought a kit of 62g springs and lube to make ergoclears but frankly i dont see a need to.  stock clears are not nearly as heavy as i was led to believe.  these things are just plain nice.  especially with SA caps.  maybe i will mod them later (once i find a ****ing switch top opener tool).

    I do remember this, actually, and it's been kinda in my head this whole time.  I ordered a couple trrs ports to replace the ones I have and if I still have issues, I'll either engineer a way to use USB connectors instead or hard wire the pieces together.  What you said earlier about order of operations makes sense when I tried making a trrs cable earlier as I was just trying to swap cables and kept getting turn off errors, so thanks for that, too. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: MOZ on Fri, 11 April 2014, 20:21:06
    The TRRS problems are annoying me.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 11 April 2014, 20:36:30
    my next ergodox (which is inevitable at this point) will have an RJ-11 port instead of TRRS.  I just have to figure out how to get it to fit in the case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sat, 12 April 2014, 23:49:46
    The ergodox cutting out for no reason is most likely due to the trrs ports/cable. Personally I never had an issue with the trrs ports with either since I don't move the keyboard around much at all, thus less chance of catching the connector on anything and straining it.

    I did have both stock cables from both of my kits die within the first two months of owning my ergodox. Again, never tugged at them, moved them or anything like that; they just conked out on me, on an ergodox that had pretty much been stationary the whole time. I'd go to sleep with it working and wake up and have it not work suddenly too. I stripped the insulation later to find one of the wires had broken inside (on both cables to boot), which leads me to conclude that the provided cables were just crappy ones. Made my own and never had an issue with my ergodox in the last 9 months or so.

    If I did want to get rid of the trrs connectors, I'd probably hardwire 4 pin mini xlrs (male-to-female) to each of the halves instead. Less of a hassle compared to trying to get a different type of port to fit into the case.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 13 April 2014, 12:16:50
    The ergodox cutting out for no reason is most likely due to the trrs ports/cable. Personally I never had an issue with the trrs ports with either since I don't move the keyboard around much at all, thus less chance of catching the connector on anything and straining it.

    I did have both stock cables from both of my kits die within the first two months of owning my ergodox. Again, never tugged at them, moved them or anything like that; they just conked out on me, on an ergodox that had pretty much been stationary the whole time. I'd go to sleep with it working and wake up and have it not work suddenly too. I stripped the insulation later to find one of the wires had broken inside (on both cables to boot), which leads me to conclude that the provided cables were just crappy ones. Made my own and never had an issue with my ergodox in the last 9 months or so.

    If I did want to get rid of the trrs connectors, I'd probably hardwire 4 pin mini xlrs (male-to-female) to each of the halves instead. Less of a hassle compared to trying to get a different type of port to fit into the case.


    Ffff that trrs connector... i got 2 dox-es and both had issues with the connector port breaking down over time...  and i couldn't have unplugged it more than 30 times each over the entire use history..

    I removed the trrs connector and soldered a few copper pins into the holes... wrapped the wire around the pins, solder, then liquid eletrical tape.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 14 April 2014, 01:07:57
    liquid electrical tape.... good ****ing call.  that should strengthen the wires going into the pins\joints.  nice.  i might have to do this someday.  i unplug my dox everyday since i take it to and from work and then back home.  i am going to buy another. one just for work on the next massdrop buy to alleviate this problem but it worries me that so many people are having trouble with the trrs.  i will go the tp4tissue route when and if problems arise. 

    are we sure this issue isnt the trrs cable?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Mon, 14 April 2014, 02:11:35
    I think most TRRS cables you can find are not very strong, some are better than others, but not much

    I have a custom made cable which works fine, seldom causing problems

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 15 April 2014, 10:54:55
    I think most TRRS cables you can find are not very strong, some are better than others, but not much

    I have a custom made cable which works fine, seldom causing problems



    It's not the cable..  it's the connector port.. poor quality part..

    (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-roO5NjcSTgY/ToVGjt4PjcI/AAAAAAAABaM/A_L4mYa9H7s/s1600/f90e2368dfcda91a61a4785427b26855.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Wed, 16 April 2014, 10:40:51
    well i take my dox to and from work everyday.  so.... i am sure i will be writing on this thread compaining about my trrs port issues eventually. 

    guess this is an excuse to purchase another one. woo!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 18 April 2014, 12:34:48
    i've said this in other threads but f the

    for some reason my first ergodox, which is currently my primary, was spared from any trrs problems oddly, but my other 2 both suffered from TRRS Issues, and i got tired of trying new connectors only to have them go out again so i got out my hook up wire http://www.amazon.com/Electronix-Express-Hook-Wire-Solid/dp/B00B4ZRPEY, just hooked into the TRRS holes and soldered, it aint going nowhere, did some cheap sleeving on the hook up wire, which is very stiff and stays in whatever shape you put it in., never had an issue after that.

    (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7097/13925437555_7cb2c2222d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ndxvqX)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/ndxvqX) by almightyglod (https://www.flickr.com/people/60268072@N07/), on Flickr


     of course doing this means you cant remove it but you could potentially use a molex connector of some sort if you needed quick disconnect.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 18 April 2014, 12:53:36
    where do you get the sleeves GLOD?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 18 April 2014, 13:24:00
    i dont remember, i think it was some leftovers from a frozencpu.com order years ago, there is better sleaving out there for sure.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Fri, 18 April 2014, 13:30:24
    cool thanks.

    would you recommend this fix for someone who travels to and from work with their ergodox in a backpack?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Fri, 18 April 2014, 15:02:45
    After the left half of my Dox has shown some funky behavior, I have decided to bypass the TRRS at all and hardwired my board.
    (http://i.imgur.com/OwUv9O1m.jpg) (http://imgur.com/OwUv9O1.jpg)

    I have opted for the Leoni Dacar (http://www.leoni.com/uploads/tx_downloadleoni/en_dacar.pdf) cable series, which allows for some crazy bending radii due to its automotive application area. Since this is a more or less ghetto solution, I did not care about strain relief and hot-glued the whole connector area. The board has worked flawlessly for about a week now, where it worked on and off before, using the TRRS connectors. I will probably mod the second Dox to support detachable XLR (or probably mini XLR) connectors, but for now I am happy to have a fully operational board  :thumb:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Glod on Fri, 18 April 2014, 16:13:10
    cool thanks.

    would you recommend this fix for someone who travels to and from work with their ergodox in a backpack?

    no not using the hook up wire i used, unless you are ok with its thickness and the fact the hands are permanently connected, but maybe if you direct wired in some other connector just to avoid using that TRRS connector that fits in that slot and causes all the problems. I guess just wait an see if you end up with problems, you may not but when your left hand suddenly stops working im guessing 75% of the time from previous posts here it ends up being that TRRS connector or a bad cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Sat, 19 April 2014, 16:38:47
    cool thanks.

    would you recommend this fix for someone who travels to and from work with their ergodox in a backpack?

    no not using the hook up wire i used, unless you are ok with its thickness and the fact the hands are permanently connected, but maybe if you direct wired in some other connector just to avoid using that TRRS connector that fits in that slot and causes all the problems. I guess just wait an see if you end up with problems, you may not but when your left hand suddenly stops working im guessing 75% of the time from previous posts here it ends up being that TRRS connector or a bad cable.

    you guys hear any information about an update version of the dox's pcb?  i would love to see full LED support (even if that means two usb connections for power) and an alternative to trrs. 

    also what do you guys think of plexon's cables? 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 19 April 2014, 17:06:15
    you guys hear any information about an update version of the dox's pcb?  i would love to see full LED support (even if that means two usb connections for power) and an alternative to trrs. 

    also what do you guys think of plexon's cables? 

    There was a project a while ago to modify the PCB to support LEDs -- but only on the full hand version, since I think they were using colorduinos, and I'm not sure what came of it.  The thread should be somewhere around here though :)

    Funny to see all the hate towards TRRS -- not funny you guys are having problems, just funny because I was one of the main proponents of that choice (sorry).  Interestingly, mine haven't given me any problems at all, but then, I think I sourced my own connectors, and some of my own cords.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Sat, 19 April 2014, 21:49:49
    you guys hear any information about an update version of the dox's pcb?  i would love to see full LED support (even if that means two usb connections for power) and an alternative to trrs. 

    also what do you guys think of plexon's cables? 

    There was a project a while ago to modify the PCB to support LEDs -- but only on the full hand version, since I think they were using colorduinos, and I'm not sure what came of it.  The thread should be somewhere around here though :)

    Funny to see all the hate towards TRRS -- not funny you guys are having problems, just funny because I was one of the main proponents of that choice (sorry).  Interestingly, mine haven't given me any problems at all, but then, I think I sourced my own connectors, and some of my own cords.

    are you using something other than this?  this is what massdrop uses and that is what i am using.
    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146)

    i prefer the full hand version myself.  i am not really all into LEDs as a concept, but i want to modify my dox even more for the hell of it. it is fun. can the colorduino support more than 64 LEDs? i think the dox has 78 keys? i dont know i could count but i really dont feel like it right now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:22:46
    are you using something other than this?  this is what massdrop uses and that is what i am using.
    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146)

    i prefer the full hand version myself.  i am not really all into LEDs as a concept, but i want to modify my dox even more for the hell of it. it is fun. can the colorduino support more than 64 LEDs? i think the dox has 78 keys? i dont know i could count but i really dont feel like it right now.

    Nope, from my notes that's the same part I bought... Hmm.  FWIW, my cables are from mycablemart.com (unless I happen to be using a massdrop cord right now, I really can't remember).

    I've never used a colorduino, so I don't know.  The ErgoDox only has 74 keys unless you split one or more of the thumb keys (so, the PCB has room for 78 keys, but most people aren't using the extra 4).  Here's (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45078.msg939339#msg939339) a link to the backlit Kinesis board, from one of the guys I remember mentioning interesting in a backlit ErgoDox a while back.  Still not sure if anyone got around to making one...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: macmakkara on Sun, 20 April 2014, 02:44:31
    are you using something other than this?  this is what massdrop uses and that is what i am using.
    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146)

    i prefer the full hand version myself.  i am not really all into LEDs as a concept, but i want to modify my dox even more for the hell of it. it is fun. can the colorduino support more than 64 LEDs? i think the dox has 78 keys? i dont know i could count but i really dont feel like it right now.

    Nope, from my notes that's the same part I bought... Hmm.  FWIW, my cables are from mycablemart.com (unless I happen to be using a massdrop cord right now, I really can't remember).

    I've never used a colorduino, so I don't know.  The ErgoDox only has 74 keys unless you split one or more of the thumb keys (so, the PCB has room for 78 keys, but most people aren't using the extra 4).  Here's (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45078.msg939339#msg939339) a link to the backlit Kinesis board, from one of the guys I remember mentioning interesting in a backlit ErgoDox a while back.  Still not sure if anyone got around to making one...

    ErgoDox have 76 keys and PCB have room for 80 keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 20 April 2014, 17:20:45
    are you using something other than this?  this is what massdrop uses and that is what i am using.
    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SJ-43514/CP-43514-ND/368146)

    i prefer the full hand version myself.  i am not really all into LEDs as a concept, but i want to modify my dox even more for the hell of it. it is fun. can the colorduino support more than 64 LEDs? i think the dox has 78 keys? i dont know i could count but i really dont feel like it right now.

    Nope, from my notes that's the same part I bought... Hmm.  FWIW, my cables are from mycablemart.com (unless I happen to be using a massdrop cord right now, I really can't remember).

    I've never used a colorduino, so I don't know.  The ErgoDox only has 74 keys unless you split one or more of the thumb keys (so, the PCB has room for 78 keys, but most people aren't using the extra 4).  Here's (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45078.msg939339#msg939339) a link to the backlit Kinesis board, from one of the guys I remember mentioning interesting in a backlit ErgoDox a while back.  Still not sure if anyone got around to making one...

    ErgoDox have 76 keys and PCB have room for 80 keys.

    Ahh!  You're right, I did count wrong.  Been away from the code for too long...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 22 April 2014, 12:24:51
    I just got my first Ergodox and I am completely new to layout configuration. I was trying to configure my Ergodox so that I can type the character "!" without pressing shift. Does anyone know whether this is possible?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: squarefrog on Tue, 22 April 2014, 13:14:24
    It's not possible with the massdrop site, but should be possible with TMK https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 22 April 2014, 13:20:21
    It's not possible with the massdrop site, but should be possible with TMK https://github.com/cub-uanic/tmk_keyboard

    Thanks for the reply. I will dig into that github repo, but if someone has already done it or know how to do it, I would really appreciate sharing the knowledge.  :cool:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 22 April 2014, 18:32:06
    There are "shifted keys" in my firmware (both in the master branch, and in the partial-rewrite branch, the latter being easier to work with), even though they're not available through the massdrop site.  If you're trying to do inverted keys (i.e. unshifted = ! and shifted = 1) I believe this workman-p layout (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/blob/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/layout/workman-p-kinesis-mod.c) recently pulled into my master branch (but not available in the partial-rewrite) implements that.  I'd explain more, but I have a test tomorrow.  Whatever you find easiest :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: limitedreality on Tue, 22 April 2014, 20:39:59
    I've read several pages of this thread and I'm clearly missing it somewhere so I apologize, but is there any way to still purchase an ErgoDox kit?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yicaoyimu on Tue, 22 April 2014, 20:50:42
    I've read several pages of this thread and I'm clearly missing it somewhere so I apologize, but is there any way to still purchase an ErgoDox kit?

    Wow first post!

    If you want the kit right now, you can get PCB and case from MK and other parts from digitkey or mouser. If you are not in a hurry, wait for MD.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: limitedreality on Tue, 22 April 2014, 21:21:40
    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: elllit on Thu, 24 April 2014, 10:09:01
    You can also get a set from czarek over at deskthority. The only things that are not included in the kit are switches (which you could get from 7bit on deskthority) and caps (several places).

    These sources are especially interesting when you live in the EU.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 29 April 2014, 03:35:25
    my next ergodox (which is inevitable at this point) will have an RJ-11 port instead of TRRS.  I just have to figure out how to get it to fit in the case.

    In hindsight, originally spec'ing RJ-14 phone jacks (the 4-conductor variant of RJ-11) probably would have been a better choice than TRRS, plenty of cable style and length options available there.

    FWIW, using USB ports would have been an unsuitable choice for this application, despite having the necessary 4 conductors, and was likely decided against because these ports would not function according to the USB standard.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Wed, 30 April 2014, 09:35:19
    Hi there...

    I'm soldering my Ergodox and I'm about to solder the Teensy on the right hand side PCB.

    A friend of mine did a 3D printed case based on the ErgoDox.org case definition files.

    My problem is that as soon as the keys will be soldered, I won't have access to the Teensy Pushbutton.
    I know I can map it to a key but would anything go wrong, I still need to ensure I can access that button anyhow.

    I may drill a small hole on the top of the case but would like to avoid it.
    I managed to get a beautiful case, I would like to keep it holeless ;-)

    There are some pins on small borders of the Teensy that are labeled RST, GND, VCC, ...

    Any idea if anyone of those could be wired to another switch that I would made reachable from the bottom of the case ?

    Thank you very much in advance.

    Pierre
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 30 April 2014, 10:51:47
    Hi there...

    I'm soldering my Ergodox and I'm about to solder the Teensy on the right hand side PCB.

    A friend of mine did a 3D printed case based on the ErgoDox.org case definition files.

    My problem is that as soon as the keys will be soldered, I won't have access to the Teensy Pushbutton.
    I know I can map it to a key but would anything go wrong, I still need to ensure I can access that button anyhow.

    I may drill a small hole on the top of the case but would like to avoid it.
    I managed to get a beautiful case, I would like to keep it holeless ;-)

    There are some pins on small borders of the Teensy that are labeled RST, GND, VCC, ...

    Any idea if anyone of those could be wired to another switch that I would made reachable from the bottom of the case ?

    Thank you very much in advance.

    Pierre

    Drill a tiny hole, just enough so a straightened paperclip fits. That's what I did.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Wed, 30 April 2014, 15:32:52
    Well. My question was how to avoid the hole ;-)

    Maybe someone knows which teensy pins are in // of the teensy switch ?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 30 April 2014, 16:14:28
    It looks like you want a button connecting RST and GND: https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/schematic.html :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Thu, 01 May 2014, 09:04:02
    Splendid !!! Thanks a lot. This is what I was looking for. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Usarise on Sat, 03 May 2014, 10:32:51
    I finally came out of lurking and joined the forums because I saw this and Acidfire's keyboard project.  I think I need to get one of these~

    Does anyone have any idea when the next massdrop will be?  I'm really interested in assembling one of these boards, but I'm also in no hurry to spend more money than I have to haha.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Sat, 03 May 2014, 14:27:57
    You can get them literally all the time from Czarek, over at Deskthority. He is shipping from the EU tho, and does not include switches, so you will have to source them for yourself.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Usarise on Sun, 04 May 2014, 11:31:21
    You can get them literally all the time from Czarek, over at Deskthority. He is shipping from the EU tho, and does not include switches, so you will have to source them for yourself.
    But would that be cheaper than waiting for the MD?  It's also a minor thing, but I'm not too crazy about the black PCB.  I'd love one in blue like on the drop.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Mon, 05 May 2014, 09:47:17
    You can get them literally all the time from Czarek, over at Deskthority. He is shipping from the EU tho, and does not include switches, so you will have to source them for yourself.
    But would that be cheaper than waiting for the MD?  It's also a minor thing, but I'm not too crazy about the black PCB.  I'd love one in blue like on the drop.

    Most likely not, since he is shipping from Europe. But you will certainly get it sooner than the Massdrop order :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 05 May 2014, 11:58:05
    i went with massdrop for their reliability and full hand case designs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Mon, 12 May 2014, 06:57:11

    It looks like you want a button connecting RST and GND: https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/schematic.html :)
    Just for information, I glued a reset switch onto the pcb and connected it to the RST and GND pass through holes of the teensy.
    This way, the "reset hole" will be on the side rather than on the top.
    (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/12/erugeju4.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xman on Wed, 14 May 2014, 21:23:53
    Does anyone know the longest cord length possible between the right & left hands with reliable operation?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: heissler on Thu, 15 May 2014, 01:01:39
    Does anyone know the longest cord length possible between the right & left hands with reliable operation?

    Longest theoretical or longest practical cord length? Since you will operate the board with your hands, I would assume that a cord length above 1 - 1,5m would be very impractical.... I currently have 1,5m of automotive cable hardwired to one of my boards. The board has been since working more reliably than before, with the TRRS connectors & cable.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 15 May 2014, 05:01:02
    I am using a 2-meter RJ11 cable now.
    I have tried a much longer cable, at least 5 meters, which also worked.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Thu, 15 May 2014, 10:41:54
    Sorry. I'm finishing soldering my ergodox and before soldering the switches, I would like to understand what is the problem with the jack connector and the cable provided by massdrop in their kit. If it is a big source of problem, then I would hard wire a tiny cable (guess 40cm is more than enough).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Thu, 15 May 2014, 10:57:19
    some people have found that between the quality of the cable and the connectors, that either the left hand, or the whole board goes screwy. generally getting a new/better cable seems to fix it, at least temporarily.

    fwiw i got my dox from the first massdrop round and have never had the problem, but my board doesn't get moved around much.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Thu, 15 May 2014, 14:26:15
    Well. I do not plan to move a lot more than a few inches my keyboard every day. Not going from computer to computer with it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xman on Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:40:08
    Does anyone know the longest cord length possible between the right & left hands with reliable operation?

    Longest theoretical or longest practical cord length? Since you will operate the board with your hands, I would assume that a cord length above 1 - 1,5m would be very impractical.... I currently have 1,5m of automotive cable hardwired to one of my boards. The board has been since working more reliably than before, with the TRRS connectors & cable.

    I'd probably be OK with 1.5m cord length.
    It seems that hardwired automotive cable is more reliable
    than using TRRS connectors & cable.
    I hope that "more reliably than before" means 100% reliable now.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Folio on Sun, 18 May 2014, 01:32:30
    For the current massdrop gb, they're offering full hand and classic. Which one is better if I am going to have it tilted/tented? Which one is better overall? Also, does it even tilt? I think the description mentioned something about it having a screw or something on the bottom so you can tilt it to any degree you like? Is this true? Super interested in joining the revolution.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Sun, 18 May 2014, 23:10:13
    I've tried searching, but can't seem to find anything about flipping the Teensy to the left hand and the io expander to the right.  Has anyone done this yet?  I am choosing between the poker II and the ergodox and I think the ergodox will win if I can find a viable way to do this flip. 

    From what I have read, I will need to solder them on the opposite ends, inverted, which in turn will cause the keys to be mapped backward.  How have people gotten around having the button on the teensy facing the pcb?  Help?  :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 19 May 2014, 00:34:51
    If the reason you'd like to put the Teensy on the left is to make it so the left side can be used alone, perhaps there's an easier solution :) .  If one procured a spare Teensy, pair of 2.2kΩ resistors, and TRRS cable (or connector), one could essentially put the right hand side of the board, minus the key matrix and LEDs, into an Altoids tin (or similar).  See the circuit diagram (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg) (download first, then view) for details, if you like.  Only the pull-up resistors on PD0 and PD1 are necessary for the Teensy to function.  The whole thing would probably cost ~$20.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 19 May 2014, 00:42:23
    my board needs to be unplugged and replugged in again sometimes. it has probably happened 10 times?  i take it back and forth from work.

    i am going to build another to stay at the office.   

    but on this one i need to figure something out. maybe a new trrs cable. not sure.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:22:12
    whoops bought another one
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:37:38
    If the reason you'd like to put the Teensy on the left is to make it so the left side can be used alone, perhaps there's an easier solution :) .  If one procured a spare Teensy, pair of 2.2kΩ resistors, and TRRS cable (or connector), one could essentially put the right hand side of the board, minus the key matrix and LEDs, into an Altoids tin (or similar).  See the circuit diagram (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg) (download first, then view) for details, if you like.  Only the pull-up resistors on PD0 and PD1 are necessary for the Teensy to function.  The whole thing would probably cost ~$20.

    I would like to use the right as well, but just have the pc-board connection on the left hand rather than the right, since my tower is on the left, and I would like to have it be useable as a standalone(like you mentioned). 

    I just don't know much about the programming of the teensy.  Could I just mount it normally(teensy on right, IO on left) and solder the switches on the back side?

    I posted a thread on the "making stuff together" section, so hopefully people can help! 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Folio on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:46:41
    Would you guys recommend the classic or full hand?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:49:52
    whoops bought another one

    this forum in a nutshell
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:55:47
    I would like to use the right as well, but just have the pc-board connection on the left hand rather than the right, since my tower is on the left, and I would like to have it be useable as a standalone(like you mentioned). 

    I just don't know much about the programming of the teensy.  Could I just mount it normally(teensy on right, IO on left) and solder the switches on the back side?

    I posted a thread on the "making stuff together" section, so hopefully people can help! 

    Not sure if there's room for that in the litster (and hence massdrop) style acrylic cases -- otherwise you could probably get away with it, with some care.  I'd test first, of course.  Hope you find a solution that works for you! :)

    Would you guys recommend the classic or full hand?

    Both versions have people who swear by them... Do you like to rest your wrists?  If so, you probably want the full hand.  If not, you probably want the classic.  I have the classic :)

    About adjustable tenting... there are a number of solutions various people came up with somewhere in this thread.  There was at least one person who used adjustable screws of some sort, with rubber feet, which is probably the cheapest solution.  But I don't really remember them, and can't comment on how well they worked (sorry), because I didn't want mine tented.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Folio on Mon, 19 May 2014, 20:59:50
    Would you guys recommend the classic or full hand?
    Both versions have people who swear by them... Do you like to rest your wrists?  If so, you probably want the full hand.  If not, you probably want the classic.  I have the classic :)
    About adjustable tenting... there are a number of solutions various people came up with somewhere in this thread.  There was at least one person who used adjustable screws of some sort, with rubber feet, which is probably the cheapest solution.  But I don't really remember them, and can't comment on how well they worked (sorry), because I didn't want mine tented.

    Yea I like to rest my wrists, I was thinking if I get the classic version that I could switch between resting and floating. By resting, I could get Grifiti's 8 inch fat pads (x2 for each hand). You think that would work? I don't rly like a hard surface to rest on and eventually I might get some slim pads from Grifiti if I get the full hand. dunno now which one to get :(
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 19 May 2014, 21:32:03
    Yea I like to rest my wrists, I was thinking if I get the classic version that I could switch between resting and floating. By resting, I could get Grifiti's 8 inch fat pads (x2 for each hand). You think that would work? I don't rly like a hard surface to rest on and eventually I might get some slim pads from Grifiti if I get the full hand. dunno now which one to get :(

    Ya... Ergonomics are so hard to predict, sometimes even after a while of actually using something.  I know a lot of people on here love to wrest their wrists, and there was some discussion a while back (especially after the first buy) about what people were doing about that.  Unfortunately I'll have to leave the discussion to them because, if you'll forgive me, I hate resting my wrists, lol.

    Just to throw in a slightly less obvious solution, it might also be possible to order a full hand bottom layer for each hand (from somewhere online, or from someone here), in addition to the classic case from massdrop (assuming that's how you're doing things) -- this way, if you substituted the full hand bottom layer on your otherwise classic case 'board, there wouldn't be much in your way when you wanted to float your wrists, and you'd still have a stable base on which to mount your separate wrests.  Of course, that would be a bit of extra work and expense...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Folio on Mon, 19 May 2014, 22:24:43
    Yea I like to rest my wrists, I was thinking if I get the classic version that I could switch between resting and floating. By resting, I could get Grifiti's 8 inch fat pads (x2 for each hand). You think that would work? I don't rly like a hard surface to rest on and eventually I might get some slim pads from Grifiti if I get the full hand. dunno now which one to get :(

    Ya... Ergonomics are so hard to predict, sometimes even after a while of actually using something.  I know a lot of people on here love to wrest their wrists, and there was some discussion a while back (especially after the first buy) about what people were doing about that.  Unfortunately I'll have to leave the discussion to them because, if you'll forgive me, I hate resting my wrists, lol.

    Just to throw in a slightly less obvious solution, it might also be possible to order a full hand bottom layer for each hand (from somewhere online, or from someone here), in addition to the classic case from massdrop (assuming that's how you're doing things) -- this way, if you substituted the full hand bottom layer on your otherwise classic case 'board, there wouldn't be much in your way when you wanted to float your wrists, and you'd still have a stable base on which to mount your separate wrests.  Of course, that would be a bit of extra work and expense...

    Thanks for your opinion on this. I think I might just go Classic on this one! More versatile in my mind in the fact that you can go full hand with a simple wrist rest whereas the full hand is permanently affixed that way. Plus, this'll give me a chance to get more into wooden tent stands :) thanks again ic

    Now time to choose between DCS or DSA caps.....
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 19 May 2014, 22:26:10
    I am having trouble getting my LH to work. I dont know a lot about digital stuff, which may be part of the problem.

    The RH works fine, everything appears to be soldered correctly (continuity checks out), I just flashed a new firmware and I'm testing with a brand new IO expander. The diodes also appear to be in the correct orientation.

    Is there something I may be missing? I can provide pictures or whatever will help.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 19 May 2014, 23:29:26
    I am having trouble getting my LH to work. I dont know a lot about digital stuff, which may be part of the problem.

    The RH works fine, everything appears to be soldered correctly (continuity checks out), I just flashed a new firmware and I'm testing with a brand new IO expander. The diodes also appear to be in the correct orientation.

    Is there something I may be missing? I can provide pictures or whatever will help.

    Hey dorkvader!  If you've already checked continuity, and tried a new IO expander, I dunno... Have you checked voltages, with everything plugged in?  Have you tried a new TRRS cable?  Are keystrokes generated if you short two of the used (circuit diagram (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg)) GPIO pins on the MCP23018 directly?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 19 May 2014, 23:36:26
    I am having trouble getting my LH to work. I dont know a lot about digital stuff, which may be part of the problem.

    The RH works fine, everything appears to be soldered correctly (continuity checks out), I just flashed a new firmware and I'm testing with a brand new IO expander. The diodes also appear to be in the correct orientation.

    Is there something I may be missing? I can provide pictures or whatever will help.

    Hey dorkvader!  If you've already checked continuity, and tried a new IO expander, I dunno... Have you checked voltages, with everything plugged in?  Have you tried a new TRRS cable?  Are keystrokes generated if you short two of the used (circuit diagram (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware/master/src/keyboard/ergodox/circuit-diagram.svg)) GPIO pins on the MCP23018 directly?

    I haven't tried a new cable (I will have to go find the spare) but I have tried shorting pins on the IO expander. Voltages seem fine, but I will check and make sure.

    I will try plugging it into a different teensy tomorrow. Maybe it's a bad pin on it or something.

    I'll get something to read that SVG as well. for whatever reason my browser doesn't want to render it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 19 May 2014, 23:36:50
    double post
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Mon, 19 May 2014, 23:42:41
    I'll get something to read that SVG as well. for whatever reason my browser doesn't want to render it.

    Sorry... didn't mention, since I posted the link not that far above: the image has to be downloaded before viewing.  Github seems to have a thing against serving SVG files viewably.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Tue, 20 May 2014, 01:52:45
    dumb question, does the ergodox plate allow you to mod the switch without desolder?  From the pictures of the ergodox plate it looks like I can but just checking to be safe. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tricheboars on Tue, 20 May 2014, 09:13:57
    dumb question, does the ergodox plate allow you to mod the switch without desolder?  From the pictures of the ergodox plate it looks like I can but just checking to be safe.

    yes. i believe so. however you might want to mod your switches before you even get the dox.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Tue, 20 May 2014, 12:15:48
    dumb question, does the ergodox plate allow you to mod the switch without desolder?  From the pictures of the ergodox plate it looks like I can but just checking to be safe.

    yes. i believe so. however you might want to mod your switches before you even get the dox.

    eh the place I want to order them from, http://www.originativeco.com/collections/accessories/products/springs, only has 55g in stock right now.  Don't know where else to get them
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 20 May 2014, 18:06:35
    I'll get something to read that SVG as well. for whatever reason my browser doesn't want to render it.

    Sorry... didn't mention, since I posted the link not that far above: the image has to be downloaded before viewing.  Github seems to have a thing against serving SVG files viewably.

    Oh, I have the circuit diagram from the gerbers on the website. I got a gerber viewer a while ago to make sure I was doing it right on my 0.5 lefthanded one hand ergodox gamepad.

    Trying the new teensy now and a few other things. Thanks for the help so far.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Wed, 21 May 2014, 19:29:08
    Anybody have extra plates or PCB for sale?  I don't like the acrylic case from massdrop and will probably be buying all of the parts separately. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Folio on Wed, 21 May 2014, 19:49:07
    Anybody have extra plates or PCB for sale?  I don't like the acrylic case from massdrop and will probably be buying all of the parts separately.

    They got aluminum top plates on Massdrop (silver, red, blue, & black) for $40. It's already on the lowest price. Just saiyan
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: conandy on Thu, 22 May 2014, 22:00:03
    Couldn't post a new thread (not enough posting history, I guess, yet) so this seems like the best place to ask this:   

    I have been agonizing over purchasing an ErgoDox (on current massdrop), waiting for Acidfire's Axios, or cobbling together my own proto-type split ergo board (intimidating too a total noob, here). 

    If there were anyone in the Denver, Colorado area who has an ErgoDox I could borrow and play with for just a day or two, it would seriously help me with my decision making process. Even just a quick visit for show and tell for a few minutes without actually borrowing it would be a huge help.  I'd be willing to drive anywhere within an hours drive or so for a chance to touchy-feely one.

    Thanks in advance to anyone who might help. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Thu, 22 May 2014, 22:05:10
    That is a really good idea, I should probably do that as well
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xman on Fri, 23 May 2014, 01:31:47
    I am using a 2-meter RJ11 cable now.
    I have tried a much longer cable, at least 5 meters, which also worked.

    Your RJ11 cable mod looks really good.
    While looking at it, I also saw your thumb cluster mod.

    I think your thumb cluster mod looks ergonomically great!
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55043.msg1244366#msg1244366

    Ideally it would be nice if they were adjustable as much as possible,
    including rotation, just to be able to ergonomically accommodate
    different individual changeable preferences.
    I don't know if that's practical...
    What you have looks very impressive!

    (By the way, I think AcidFire's thumb clusters are non-adjustable,
       but I might be wrong about that.)


    Maybe someone (who knows more than me) will make some
    "ErgoDox-with-plainbriny-thumbcluster-mod" PCBs
    with optional break-away thumb clusters, & ribbon cable connections
    to facilitate your "ErgoDox-with-plainbriny-thumbcluster-mod"...

    For those who don't care about ergonomics:
    they would keep it in one piece.

    For those who want or need the ergonomics:
    they would use separated thumb clusters.


    I think most people would find your thumb cluster mod
    to feel more comfortable. (I might be wrong about that.)


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 23 May 2014, 06:59:04
    I think your thumb cluster mod looks ergonomically great!
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55043.msg1244366#msg1244366

    Ideally it would be nice if they were adjustable as much as possible,
    including rotation, just to be able to ergonomically accommodate
    different individual changeable preferences.
    I don't know if that's practical...
    What you have looks very impressive!

    (By the way, I think AcidFire's thumb clusters are non-adjustable,
       but I might be wrong about that.)

    Maybe someone (who knows more than me) will make some
    "ErgoDox-with-plainbriny-thumbcluster-mod" PCBs
    with optional break-away thumb clusters, & ribbon cable connections
    to facilitate your "ErgoDox-with-plainbriny-thumbcluster-mod"...

    Thanks, I use it everyday, I can't type on anything else now  ;D

    As for adjustability, I think it would be great, but it is beyond my ability now.

    AcidFire's thumb cluster is adjustable, but in most circumstances will be restricted by the case design.

    I think the thumb cluster part of his PCB is detachable. I am also looking forward for his final work.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Sun, 25 May 2014, 15:42:00
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56846.0

    deerrp help?

    not sure how to use multimeter to test out what's not working?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Fluctuation on Mon, 26 May 2014, 17:52:40
    Just put together an ergodox for the first time. It took about six hours from start to finish. I always thought blue switches were too light so I ordered clear switches, but I think these are a bit too heavy. Which spring would be a happy medium if I were to mod these clears? I really like the way they feel, but they're just a tad heavy.

    It was my first time soldering, but it was pretty fun. Took quite a while to figure how to get the solder to form up on the pins, I think I had an easier time with the SMDs. I might order some more kits with different switches just to have fun building another board. Now I need to spend some time making some sort of tenting solution out of wood. Idk if it's these DSA caps, or if it's just the flat typing, but it's a bit hard to reach the numbers, and letters like "G" or "J" with colemak layout.  I don't really have much of a problem hitting the thumb keys (except the top corner) like a lot of people complain about, but maybe I just have huge hands.



    65g maybe?

    I'll look into it, thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Pacifist on Mon, 26 May 2014, 17:55:10
    Just put together an ergodox for the first time. It took about six hours from start to finish. I always thought blue switches were too light so I ordered clear switches, but I think these are a bit too heavy. Which spring would be a happy medium if I were to mod these clears? I really like the way they feel, but they're just a tad heavy.

    It was my first time soldering, but it was pretty fun. Took quite a while to figure how to get the solder to form up on the pins, I think I had an easier time with the SMDs. I might order some more kits with different switches just to have fun building another board. Now I need to spend some time making some sort of tenting solution out of wood. Idk if it's these DSA caps, or if it's just the flat typing, but it's a bit hard to reach the numbers, and letters like "G" or "J" with colemak layout.  I don't really have much of a problem hitting the thumb keys (except the top corner) like a lot of people complain about, but maybe I just have huge hands.

    65g maybe?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Tue, 27 May 2014, 13:21:45
    ...
    some sort of tenting solution out of wood
    ...

    Probably not quite what you were thinking of, but I couldn't resist linking to kerplop's build (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg865680#msg865680) :) .  There are a few other people's tenting solutions near that one in the thread too, I think.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 29 May 2014, 01:31:25
    Just put together an ergodox for the first time. It took about six hours from start to finish. I always thought blue switches were too light so I ordered clear switches, but I think these are a bit too heavy. Which spring would be a happy medium if I were to mod these clears? I really like the way they feel, but they're just a tad heavy.

    It was my first time soldering, but it was pretty fun. Took quite a while to figure how to get the solder to form up on the pins, I think I had an easier time with the SMDs. I might order some more kits with different switches just to have fun building another board. Now I need to spend some time making some sort of tenting solution out of wood. Idk if it's these DSA caps, or if it's just the flat typing, but it's a bit hard to reach the numbers, and letters like "G" or "J" with colemak layout.  I don't really have much of a problem hitting the thumb keys (except the top corner) like a lot of people complain about, but maybe I just have huge hands.

    65g maybe?

    The choices are 55g, 62g, or 65g. Since you hated softer touches but you're afraid of getting too hard... Any of these three works, but remember to get Korean custom springs if you're going 55g and 62g because there is a risk of the key getting stuck if the spring isn't strong enough. Nonetheless, the feel is almost similar if you lubed them, so YMMV.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Fluctuation on Thu, 29 May 2014, 14:00:31
    ...
    some sort of tenting solution out of wood
    ...

    Probably not quite what you were thinking of, but I couldn't resist linking to kerplop's build (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg865680#msg865680) :) .  There are a few other people's tenting solutions near that one in the thread too, I think.


    Oh man, I don't think I have enough experience to do something like that. That is quite beautiful, though. I was thinking something along the lines of a plate that attaches to the bottom with velcro, or I can get longer screws and use that. Mine would be beyond simple, haha.



    The choices are 55g, 62g, or 65g. Since you hated softer touches but you're afraid of getting too hard... Any of these three works, but remember to get Korean custom springs if you're going 55g and 62g because there is a risk of the key getting stuck if the spring isn't strong enough. Nonetheless, the feel is almost similar if you lubed them, so YMMV.

     
    Where can I get these springs besides originative? They seem to be all out of stock.

    After a few days of typing on clears, they've really grown on me. The force required is now a non-issue, and I find myself barely bottoming out anymore. Before I used to do it 100% of the time. I'm not entirely sure I can go back to clicky switches, either. It's incredibly quiet compared to my old Leopold board. I really want to try blacks, now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mikew0w on Sat, 31 May 2014, 20:04:48

    Where can I get these springs besides originative? They seem to be all out of stock.

    I have been wondering this too. There is a thread about how they have been unresponsive so I'm hesitant to order there even if they get stock back.
    I want to make gehtto greens out of my blues and I dont know where to buy the springs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 01 June 2014, 07:28:06
    It is about time that I showcased my "SchmergoDox", even though it does not have any case. It is quite modified which I think could be interesting to some.

    [attachimg=1]

    I had bought only bare PCBs in Massdrop's first run, because I had planned to build a simple and inexpensive board with PCB-mounted switches and reuse caps from old keyboards.

    Unfortunately the 1u options for the outermost columns had misplaced pin holes, so I discovered that I needed to drill in the PCBs to fit the switches and use a plate to hold them.
    I also found that the thumb keys were too far away... but I found that I could add an extra thumb key on each half, and that also required plates.

    Because I think the column offsets on the ErgoDox are too small, I wanted to compensate by using both higher OEM profile and lower SP-profile to get somewhat of a dished effect. I had a rubber dome keyboard from BTC where the alphanumerics are SP-profile and Cherry MX-compatible but the larger keys are not. I ordered a matching set of lasered OEM-profile keys from WASD Keyboards about a year ago. The BTC caps are the same profile as Signature Plastics' keys and used for middle and ring finger columns, but unfortunately they sit higher than the OEM-profile WASD caps so the height difference is not as high as I had anticipated it would be... They were actually retr0brite'd a year or two ago but they seem to have yellowed again.
    I based the layout somewhat on that of the µTron.

    I made one universal plate design for both halves in QCad, using Litster's blueprints as starting point. I had them laser-cut of 1.5 mm acrylic at Ponoko because the laser-cutter at the local makerspace was broken. I had to wait a few months for my plates from Ponoko, and the first shipment was in the wrong scale even...
    The good plates were then somewhat reinforced on the inside and painted. 1.5mm is not too thin for acrylic if there is a PCB and if you are careful during assembly. Afterwards I realized that I could have sandwiched two 1.5 mm plates, where the lower plate has larger holes for the switches and diodes.
    All but the innermost 2u keys have Cherry plate-mount stabilisers. I had made an error with the stabilisers: I had placed them facing the same way as Costar stabilisers would - with the wire on the same side as the diode. So I had to remove the diodes that were beside the stabilised switches and place new diodes inside them.

    I cut away the outermost thumb keys, because I wanted a smaller keyboard. I would have cut away some of the outer parts of the PCB also if they had not had mounting holes.
    When drilling or cutting a PCB, which is made of fibreglass, it is important that you don't inhale any fibreglass dust - it can literally kill you. I used a vacuum cleaner on full close to the PCB all the time and wore a dust mask.

    The TRRS sockets are not the recommended, but the FC68129 with its extra pins snipped off. Because I didn't solder the USB cable to the PCB, I needed to route a wire from the Teensy to the PCB to provide power for the left half: That is not necessary in later revisions of the PCB.
    The cables are cheap Chinese cables I got on eBay.

    The image below shows how I made the thumbkey mod. One key from the bottom row had to be sacrificed.
    I insulated the ground plane in the new drill holes with tinted epoxy. I used one stabilising pin from each switch and snipped the other. :)
    [attachimg=2]

    I started on a case, designed in QCad and hand-cut from thin wood... but the wood I got wasn't flat enough and some of the corners were difficult. I could build it from styrene easy enough, but I don't quite like styrene.
    I may build one later out of thicker lasercut plywood once I get access to the local makerspace's laser-cutter.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 01 June 2014, 07:59:08
    It is about time that I showcased my "SchmergoDox", even though it does not have any case. It is quite modified which I think could be interesting to some.
    (Attachment Link)

    This mod is awesome.  :thumb:
    My current thumb cluster mod is too bulky to carry around.
    This mod is much more portable, maybe I should build one too.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 02 June 2014, 00:31:10
    ...
    some sort of tenting solution out of wood
    ...

    Probably not quite what you were thinking of, but I couldn't resist linking to kerplop's build (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg865680#msg865680) :) .  There are a few other people's tenting solutions near that one in the thread too, I think.


    Oh man, I don't think I have enough experience to do something like that. That is quite beautiful, though. I was thinking something along the lines of a plate that attaches to the bottom with velcro, or I can get longer screws and use that. Mine would be beyond simple, haha.



    The choices are 55g, 62g, or 65g. Since you hated softer touches but you're afraid of getting too hard... Any of these three works, but remember to get Korean custom springs if you're going 55g and 62g because there is a risk of the key getting stuck if the spring isn't strong enough. Nonetheless, the feel is almost similar if you lubed them, so YMMV.

     
    Where can I get these springs besides originative? They seem to be all out of stock.

    After a few days of typing on clears, they've really grown on me. The force required is now a non-issue, and I find myself barely bottoming out anymore. Before I used to do it 100% of the time. I'm not entirely sure I can go back to clicky switches, either. It's incredibly quiet compared to my old Leopold board. I really want to try blacks, now.

    I'd say taobao, but I have the privilege of an agent dedicated to MKBs, so YMMV.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 04 June 2014, 15:44:49
    I'd say taobao, but I have the privilege of an agent dedicated to MKBs, so YMMV.

    Getting a bit far afield from the Ergodox, but ... you want to run a GB ...? Spirit's springs-only GB was wildly popular and would probably generate some interest again.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 04 June 2014, 15:58:50
    After a few days of typing on clears, they've really grown on me. The force required is now a non-issue, and I find myself barely bottoming out anymore. Before I used to do it 100% of the time. I'm not entirely sure I can go back to clicky switches, either. It's incredibly quiet compared to my old Leopold board. I really want to try blacks, now.

    I picked up clears instead of blues for the same reason.  This makes me very happy to read.  I'll know better when I actually build the darn thing.  Never soldered before and I'm scared of fouling it up.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: slickmamba on Wed, 04 June 2014, 16:18:55
    You'll be fine, just don't run the iron too hot the first time.  Watch a few videos on youtube and you should be good. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: EvillePanda on Wed, 04 June 2014, 16:58:21
    So keep it to a low roar.  Should I use the Radio Shack iron or the Weller?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Thu, 05 June 2014, 11:55:31
    It is about time that I showcased my "SchmergoDox", even though it does not have any case. It is quite modified which I think could be interesting to some.

    (Attachment Link)



    Great job and smart mods on your ErgoDox. I think you uncovered the essence of what needed to be tweaked on it to make it a much improved unit. The more comfortably placed thumb keys and the 1x outer rows make it a more compact and user friendly keyboard.

    I don't know if you're planning on tenting it but the thumb cluster chop will keep it from standing up to high if you do. :thumb:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: xman on Mon, 09 June 2014, 21:47:28
    I'd say taobao, but I have the privilege of an agent dedicated to MKBs, so YMMV.

    Getting a bit far afield from the Ergodox, but ... you want to run a GB ...? Spirit's springs-only GB was wildly popular and would probably generate some interest again.

    Depending on what was offered, I'd be in for 2 bags of springs,
    if each bag had 100 or more springs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: naz on Wed, 11 June 2014, 14:45:47


    Hi, here are a few questions that i couldn't found a straight answer (there are over a 100 pages of posting):

    The configurator from massdrop doesn't let me put the " ñ " letter as a main key. ¿can this be done without using a key combination (ctrl+key, alt+key, etc)? (I want to use the keyboard with a Spanish layout)

    Another thing: can you change de secondary symbol of a key? For instance, the configurator writes " , " as a main key and "^" as a secondary symbol (shift+key), but in a Spanish Layout it'll be " , " and " ; " (same thing happens with a lot of other keys)

    I really like this keyboard, but i'm not willing to type on a US layout, i rather stick with my Microsoft Natural XD.

    Thanks for the help and regards
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 11 June 2014, 15:41:28
    Hi, here are a few questions that i couldn't found a straight answer (there are over a 100 pages of posting):

    The configurator from massdrop doesn't let me put the " ñ " letter as a main key. ¿can this be done without using a key combination (ctrl+key, alt+key, etc)? (I want to use the keyboard with a Spanish layout)

    Another thing: can you change de secondary symbol of a key? For instance, the configurator writes " , " as a main key and "^" as a secondary symbol (shift+key), but in a Spanish Layout it'll be " , " and " ; " (same thing happens with a lot of other keys)

    I really like this keyboard, but i'm not willing to type on a US layout, i rather stick with my Microsoft Natural XD.

    Thanks for the help and regards

    First, welcome to GeekHack :) .

    As for the ErgoDox being able to be used with a Spanish layout, it most definitely can -- just like any standard USB keyboard.  The choice between a US layout and a Spanish one that you're referring to is handled at the OS level -- so if the ", <" key in a US layout is equivalent to the ", ;" key in a Spanish one, just set the desired key to ", <" in the Massdrop tool, and you'll get ", ;" when you plug it in to your computer (as long as your computer is configured to use a Spanish layout).  It may take some experimentation to figure out which keys map to which others, but it's definitely doable.  The reason that the Massdrop tool only lists the US versions of keys is... well, I suppose partially because they're a US based company... but also because that's the way the USB HID boot keyboard specification is written.  You'd think a major USB sub-specification would make more effort to be multilingual, but, it really doesn't.

    As for whether you can configure the firmware to directly enter an "ñ" (or any other utf-8 character) in a software layout agnostic way, it can be done (kind of, depending on your system) but only in source at the moment, and it's a pain.  You can also sort of separate unshifted keys from their shifted counterparts, but again only in source, and that's also a pain, lol.  There's been some discussion of that on Github, if you're interested, e.g. for writing a workman-p type layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 11 June 2014, 15:56:07
    You could also use a picture of a Spanish layout and a picture of USlayout to match each Spanish key to a name in the configurator.

    European layouts have to additional keys also. They are found in the Misc menu in the configurator.
    The key to the right of left Shift is called Key_NonUS_Backslash_Pipe.
    The key to the left of Enter just above the right Shift key is called Key_NonUS_Pound_Tilde.
    These are named after what symbols are on them in British layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: naz on Thu, 12 June 2014, 14:57:58
    Thanks for the answer, i'm glad to have found this site  :thumb:

    So it can be done, great. Basically, this has been the only reason i haven't bought a proper ergonomic keyboard (teck, kinesis, etc), so i keep typing on my microsoft natural. I already sign for the next massdrop ergodox (can't wait)... still a bit worried about the thumb cluster position, tough, lots of people says to be a bit far, especially for the smaller hands.

    anyway, thanks again and regards!

       
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 12 June 2014, 15:48:30
    This seems silly, but

    [attach=1]

    And the thumb cluster's not perfect, I suppose (I don't tend to use the outer keys except for key-combination shortcuts and the like) but I've never had any problems with it.  The two large buttons, especially, are just fine, for me.

    (an old post with some picks of me reaching for various keys in the thumb cluster) (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.msg765195#msg765195)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: naz on Thu, 12 June 2014, 17:09:54
    Is not silly at all, i actually think is usefull data.

    After measuring my hand, i realice is a whole inch smaller than yours (5 inches from the midle finger tip to the thumb base). i wonder if anyone stop using the ergodox becouse of the thumb cluster.

    do you know if the massdrop configurator has the same dimensions than the ergodox?? i would like to print it and see for my self.



     

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 12 June 2014, 19:31:49
    I know at least a few people have gone to great lengths to modify the thumb cluster...  There was also talk a while back about about an alternate design with a different one.  Not sure what, if anything came of those discussions (I didn't really keep up with them).

    Hmm... Just looking, the proportions seem pretty close.  You'd probably have to fiddle with it a bit to make sure the printed size was the same though.  Or, you could download a gerber viewer, and grab the design files here (http://ergodox.org/Downloads.aspx).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Thu, 12 June 2014, 21:16:36
    Thanks for the answer, i'm glad to have found this site  :thumb:

    So it can be done, great. Basically, this has been the only reason i haven't bought a proper ergonomic keyboard (teck, kinesis, etc), so i keep typing on my microsoft natural. I already sign for the next massdrop ergodox (can't wait)... still a bit worried about the thumb cluster position, tough, lots of people says to be a bit far, especially for the smaller hands.

    anyway, thanks again and regards!

       

    Thumb cluster is a bit far. Personally I only use the two big buttons (space and enter) although mine's a glorified gamepad right now.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 19 June 2014, 20:57:40
    i wonder if anyone stop using the ergodox becouse of the thumb cluster.
    Yes, I’ve heard of a bunch of people who dislike the ergodox thumb keys. See for instance http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58673

    The little empty gap between the thumb keys and the bottom row of the finger section is a very easy spot for a thumb to reach, and the further-out thumb keys are quite tricky to reach. Overall, it’s a design that borrows too closely from the Kinesis Advantage and is suboptimal for a keyboard with flat halves.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 20 June 2014, 00:18:31
    Maybe this could be a quick fix to the thumb cluster problem?

    [attachimg=1]

    or

    [attachimg=2]

    I prefer the later one, because I can make use of the extra keys.

    Of course, modification to the case and plate are required.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Fri, 20 June 2014, 09:05:42
    I find this worse. The current long side by side keys are the easiest keys to hit in the thumb cluster, and your suggestion ruins that :-)

    What the ergodox needs is to simply bring the thumb clusters closer to the other keys.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Fri, 20 June 2014, 14:17:04
    What the ergodox needs is to simply bring the thumb clusters closer to the other keys.
    +1

    I even started to modify layer 3 of the case. But then I realized that there are more things I mind:
    * no tilt on the bottom key well row
    * equal height of keycaps on the thumb cluster
    So I decided to try to redo it completely.

    The original idea:
    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Fri, 20 June 2014, 22:40:05
    What's the problem here?  I find the ErgoDox fits my hands perfectly.
    http://goo.gl/DUCguu (gif of hitting the thumb cluster)

    EDIT:  I made the link easier... sorry about that!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Harrowed on Sat, 21 June 2014, 05:46:14
    What's the problem here?  I find the ErgoDox fits my hands perfectly.
    http://goo.gl/zqppE6  (gif of hitting the thumb cluster)

    The gif seems to be as hard to reach as Ergodox' thumb cluster (I can't view the thing, asks to sign into Google and then to make Google+ account which I'm not going to do)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 21 June 2014, 08:53:52
    Maybe this could be a quick fix to the thumb cluster problem?
    Two suggestions I posted more than a year ago:
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=18428;image)
    The key on the right is a cut-up space bar.
    Eventually, I modified the PCBs to get an additional diagonal key.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Sun, 22 June 2014, 05:30:16
    Maybe this could be a quick fix to the thumb cluster problem?
    Two suggestions I posted more than a year ago:
    Show Image
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22780.0;attach=18428;image)

    The key on the right is a cut-up space bar.
    Eventually, I modified the PCBs to get an additional diagonal key.

    I fixed it: http://goo.gl/DUCguu
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JonPB on Sun, 22 June 2014, 16:59:54
    Crash, my own thumb doesn't naturally reach that far. Looking at your picture, I think you're slightly larger in stature than most people, which probably carries over to your hands as well. :-)

    I solved my thumb-reach problem by moving my index fingers to the qwerty-g and qwerty-h positions. Of course, that requires using a different keymap, but then I was planning on doing that all along. (And I'm still tweaking it, some nine months later. Teensy with Cub-uanic's TMK is fantastic.) Still, if people develop a better thumb cluster, I'd be able to upgrade to that and keep my general layout plus I'd have an adduct thumb key as well as the existing selection of abduct keys.

    Ultimately, though, I think flexibility is the key {pun intended} to solving the one-design-fits-all keyboard.

    I'm a novice at hardware design, but I think that moving the thumb cluster to its own PCB is the only way to go (other than hand-wiring) for a mass-produced product. It strikes me that the most flexible design would have four long bolts attached to ball joints that allows the thumb cluster to be positioned almost arbitrarily, but without risk of shifting, in terms of both distance and angle from the main keyboards. This would also allow built-in tenting. A simpler design would have a case that has several slots into which the thumb cluster could rest, allowing each assembler rough control of how closely it fits to the main boards. Heck, perhaps the main PCB could have several rows of perforations that would allow users to break the thumb clusters off and arrange them, if desired.

    Personally, my ideal would be to have an Erector Set-like bundle of single-switch plates and struts for those plates. Each plate could be customized as to x-y-z-a (left-right, top-bottom, up-down, and angle) relative to the other plates. Each strut would need to be hacksawed off, eventually. Then I'd run some steel wire among the plates to prevent them from shifting relative to each other, and hand-wire each switch to the ErgoDox PCB. It would be an open-case design, but I think its diy-punk looks, not to mention its infinite physical customizability combined with standard programmability, would make up for its vulnerability to dust and debris.

    There's never going to be a perfect keyboard for everyone. Most people make do with the tools they're presented. But I tend to go to extremes. :-) Maybe it goes without saying that I'm an emacs kinda guy. It doesn't go without saying that I'm grateful to everyone's efforts that have gone into making my own ErgoDox possible. Thanks, folks.

    Cheers,
    Jon
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 22 June 2014, 21:44:18
    Working on my MK III. Though the thumb cluster idea is not well received, I do have an idea for the connection between the two halves.

    On my mark II (the Frankendox), I used RJ11 sockets. It worked rather well, however, the profile of the socket is too high, and I have to drill a hole for the socket.

    Today I found it is possible to connect the two halves using USB cable (mini to mini, like this one http://www.wpsantennas.com/859966-Mini-USB-to-Mini-USB-Data-Cable.aspx). The basic idea is to connect Ergodox directly to USB port on teensy, so the USB sockets on the two halves will be available. Just connect the two I/O lines to D+ and D- of the USB port, and it should work. Of course, the socket on the left hand side should be soldered on the bottom. Otherwise custom cables will be required.

    Current hurdle: mini-to-mini cables are not easy to find locally.

    Will report back if this is working.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 26 June 2014, 00:51:36
    So connecting the two halves using USB cable works.

    [attach=1]

    Just rewire the D+ and D- of USB connector

    [attach=2]

    I used a mini USB to micro USB connector, so I can use micro USB cable to connect ErgoDox and PC now

    [attach=3]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Thu, 26 June 2014, 07:19:08
    Wow, that looks REALLY fragile. 0_0   Be sure to let us know how that holds up.
    By the way, this is shaping up nicely... good work on the mod.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 26 June 2014, 07:44:08
    Thanks for the comment.

    I think L-shaped connector and a proper case will help.
    (http://mxmexpress.com/img/p/64-243-large.jpg)

    This should be my final ErgoDox build (waiting for Axios), still working on it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 27 June 2014, 01:45:42
    I'm on the opposite side from Crash -- that looks really durable. Be sure to let us know how it holds up! ;)

    As you may know, I finished my own ergodox, and am using off-board RJ11 plugs. Well, no -- plug, singular, on the left, with cables that are too short and the thing is squished into a stiff downward unmoving state. The right side has a raw phone cord soldered straight to the board.

     Works beautifully, but I've had it freeze, I think, twice. Once might have been me locking myself into a hidden layer I know I didn't like that layout and re-flashed it a few hours later. The other time, I think it really froze and I had to re-seat the USB cord to the PC.
    Title: MD firmware limitation?
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sat, 28 June 2014, 14:27:44
    Okay so pardon me if I'm covering old ground, but ... I'm at work, and frustrated by my windows PC not hearing my keyboard. Except I was playing around, and just figured out a workaround.

    Logging in / unlocking the screen requires hitting the reset-sequence, 'Ctrl-Alt-Del' -- and it never works.

    Then I found that, rather than plugging in my QFR long enough to log in, I could instead hit the somewhat awkward combination using just the left hand. BUT THERE'S A R_ALT DEFINED, doggonit! So, more playing around.

    If I hold down the r-alt first, THEN use the left-hand keys, it works. But if I push Control, or Delete first ... the 'alt' addition (from the right side) never gets added. Left-only keys work in any order.

    Does TMK fix this ? Does anything? I can use the Lshift without difficulty - Shift, KeyOnRight, release, keep typing ... nothing strange there. Just this particular combination that I've seen so far, but then again this may be, aside from capitol letters, the only cross-hand combination I use.

    Edit: it looks like you don't have any cross-hand key combos, so you wouldn't run into this problem. I could just not use one side, or as I say use the RH keys first ... that's just dumb, is all I'm saying. But thank you for your input, Larken. ... I'll look into this further.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Larken on Sun, 29 June 2014, 02:13:33
    Okay so pardon me if I'm covering old ground, but ... I'm at work, and frustrated by my windows PC not hearing my keyboard. Except I was playing around, and just figured out a workaround.

    Logging in / unlocking the screen requires hitting the reset-sequence, 'Ctrl-Alt-Del' -- and it never works.

    Then I found that, rather than plugging in my QFR long enough to log in, I could instead hit the somewhat awkward combination using just the right hand. BUT THERE'S A R_ALT DEFINED, doggonit! So, more playing around.

    If I hold down the r-alt first, THEN use the left-hand keys, it works. But if I push Control, or Delete first ... the 'alt' addition never gets added.

    Does TMK fix this ? Does anything? I can use the Lshift without difficulty - Shift, KeyOnRight, release, keep typing ... nothing strange there. Just this particular combination that I've seen so far.

    Let me see if I got that right. You're saying "Ctrl-Alt-Delete" doesn't work when pressed together in that sequence?

    If that's so, that's rather odd, as I'd tried a few times (my firmware is compiled with the massdrop configurator), and it works every time. It could be the keycode used - the only alt I have on my layout is LAlt instead of the RAlt. I think you'd be able to fix it with a minor tweak to your layout.

    My layout for reference.

    https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?referer=7M8A25&hash=b9a85468bac475f741a1626cff4a6e93

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 29 June 2014, 14:50:30
    Is it possible that with your software layout (non-US?), RAlt is being interpreted as AltGr?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sun, 29 June 2014, 16:03:59
    Is it possible that with your software layout (non-US?), RAlt is being interpreted as AltGr?
    "US - Dvorak" doesn't have an AltGr, to my knowledge. Also, I've (albeit rarely for awkwardness reasons) logged in with the right alt of a standard keyboard on this PC -- and I've used the dvorak layout for longer than I've been at my current job (14 years) So I don't believe that's the culprit.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Sun, 29 June 2014, 16:38:39
    Hmm... that is strange.  Reading over your post more carefully, I still have no other ideas about what might be going on (and no Windows box to test on).  You might consider redefining your RAlt key to use the LAlt keycode (so that you have two LAlt keys, one for each hand), unless you need to be able to differentiate between the two in the OS.  If that doesn't work, you might post more about your layout -- or possibly just try Hasu's firmware, or my partial-rewrite branch, or just compiling your massdrop generated layout (if that is indeed what you're using right now) by yourself -- I suppose any of them has a chance... :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Sun, 29 June 2014, 17:03:22
    Thanks for trying, ic07.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around CubUniac's rewrite of TMK, and I may include a 'lalt' on the right because as you say, I don't strictly need the OS to differentiate right now. Still, I predict it will boil down to some oddity of I2C ... in which case, moving from BenBlazenk / MD to Cub or Hasu's code might be enough.

    Too, there's that rewrite-on-the-fly firmware that was written completely free of TMK; I've got it on my todo list to make the 'windows hack' branch and try it out, too.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Sun, 29 June 2014, 21:29:52
    (http://i.imgur.com/jlSZ9ABl.jpg)

    So my left-handed ergodox has been semi-completed. Now awaiting the granite set's arrival before it is considered as... complete.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sun, 29 June 2014, 21:42:38
    Those connectors look interesting, are they RJ45?

    I am also thinking about a single-handed, left-handed board (I got one spare PCB left). It seems possible to follow the right-hand placement, and just put the keys in the reverse side. This should be easier and no need to modify the firmware.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Sun, 29 June 2014, 21:55:14
    Those connectors look interesting, are they RJ45?

    I am also thinking about a single-handed, left-handed board (I got one spare PCB left). It seems possible to follow the right-hand placement, and just put the keys in the reverse side. This should be easier and no need to modify the firmware.
    Yes they are. The initial prototype relied on a mess of IDE cables but this is a lot more elegant if I do say so myself. Credits to my dad who supplied me with the interconnects.

    Basically, for the teensy, you just need to ensure that the ground and the VCC pins are attached to the right place. Every other pin is fair game.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TotalChaos on Fri, 04 July 2014, 23:55:57
    I don't suppose there will ever be a Ergodox with real Function keys?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: EvillePanda on Sat, 05 July 2014, 21:19:09
    Started work on mine today.  I'm missing two diodes for the switches.  /grump.  Off to radio shack tomorrow.  Hope they have some.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Sun, 06 July 2014, 06:04:52
    I don't suppose there will ever be a Ergodox with real Function keys?
    well, not really, cos by definition it would then not be an ergodox ;) but you might wanna look at acidfire's axios, that has F key options. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.1350
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: apathy3cs on Sat, 12 July 2014, 02:42:01
    Started work on mine today.  I'm missing two diodes for the switches.  /grump.  Off to radio shack tomorrow.  Hope they have some.

    something to watch out for at the locations where your thumb rests there are spots where it looks like diodes should go but don't.  I thought I was short and noticed I mounted the SM diodes at the wrong spot there.

    Radio Shack does have the right diode values but they are not the SM diodes that you get with the kit.  they only have the through hole kind.  It will work but it's not -as- nice for these supposedly.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Tue, 15 July 2014, 01:17:18
    hey all,

    so i've had my ergodox for like a month or so now and it is SPLENDID.

    but I'm having 2 issues with it, one aesthetic and one functional, and I wanted to know if there's any way to fix them:


    1.  the thumb cluster.  (functional)

    I currently use the 4 out of 5 keys on the right bottom layer of the main section to work as arrow keys.  This is okay, but it's not an inverted T and that makes me sad.

    I see on the PCB that there is room for all 1x keys (eight total). 

    so, here's the problem:  do we have a CAD design for a plate with all 1x thumb keys?

    if we do, i'm golden, but if we don't, I could go pcb mount, but how does the pcb fit into a litster case?  It seems like having a plate is required.

    2.  controllers are top mounted (aes.)

    I really don't like the look of the controllers on top. I know that it's better to have the teensy on top so the reset button is accessible, but I really don't need to use that button very often.

    is it possible to have BOTH the io expander and teensy on the other side?  I guess i don't really care which hand the teensy is on.

    this also affects my plate situation.  if there is a all-1x thumbs plate, then does that drawing also NOT have the cutouts for the controllers?  without those cutouts, i can go for a super 'seamless' low profile look :D


    thanks for your thoughts :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 15 July 2014, 08:31:46
    so, here's the problem:  do we have a CAD design for a plate with all 1x thumb keys?

    We do, but I didn't really cut them, so I am not sure about how accurate they are:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52037.0

    is it possible to have BOTH the io expander and teensy on the other side?  I guess i don't really care which hand the teensy is on.

    It is.
    You can place every thing except keyswitches as usual, then flip the PCB and put the keyswitches / diodes in the reverse side. And that's it.
    However, the layout will now be mirrored, because the left and right hand side will be swapped.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 15 July 2014, 09:47:23
    if we do, i'm golden, but if we don't, I could go pcb mount, but how does the pcb fit into a litster case?  It seems like having a plate is required.

    You might have a look at my GB thread for 16ga metal cases ... in the middle of that somewhere, JDcarpe posted a 'spacer' .dxf, which I think could be cut out of 5mm acrylic and used in lieu of a plate.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Tue, 15 July 2014, 12:30:47
    I just visited Ergodox.org and was searching for the acrylic case files. If you click on the download link on the page there´s a 404. Is the dxf still available?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 15 July 2014, 18:35:41
    I just visited Ergodox.org and was searching for the acrylic case files. If you click on the download link on the page there´s a 404. Is the dxf still available?

    Here: https://github.com/bishboria/ErgoDox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: swill on Tue, 15 July 2014, 21:06:10
    is it possible to have BOTH the io expander and teensy on the other side?  I guess i don't really care which hand the teensy is on.

    This is not possible. Those two need to be on different sides in order for the matrix to bridge between PCBs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Tue, 15 July 2014, 21:10:29
    no...not the SAME hand.  on the other sides of their respective boards so that the top of each pcb is blank except for solder joints and switches.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: swill on Tue, 15 July 2014, 21:17:30
    no...not the SAME hand.  on the other sides of their respective boards so that the top of each pcb is blank except for solder joints and switches.

    Oh sorry, I am an idiot. Ignore me. :P
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 15 July 2014, 23:25:26
    is it possible to have BOTH the io expander and teensy on the other side?  I guess i don't really care which hand the teensy is on.

    This is not possible. Those two need to be on different sides in order for the matrix to bridge between PCBs.

    I think you misunderstood.
    My interpretation is that tbc don't want to see the io expander and teensy, so he want to put these in the bottom of the PCB. And it is possible, you just need to reverse the placement of some components.

    Of course its just my interpretation, tbc should be able to clarify this.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Wed, 16 July 2014, 02:49:21
    is it possible to have BOTH the io expander and teensy on the other side?  I guess i don't really care which hand the teensy is on.

    This is not possible. Those two need to be on different sides in order for the matrix to bridge between PCBs.

    I think you misunderstood.
    My interpretation is that tbc don't want to see the io expander and teensy, so he want to put these in the bottom of the PCB. And it is possible, you just need to reverse the placement of some components.

    Of course its just my interpretation, tbc should be able to clarify this.

    It's possible alright, but I broke my IO expander in the process, so I had to manually wire leftie and rightie using two RJ45 cables. I'm also unsure which joints you're supposed to short on the TRSS cable.

    Basically, you just mount it in reverse, but you'll cut off access to the teensy boot button. Kinda like dorkvader's leftie gamepad, but then you still expand to the right side.

    Also, good luck and have fun. My build will probably be completed tonight or so :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Wed, 16 July 2014, 02:53:14
    it IS easier moving the teensy to the LH right?  so I just literally flip both hands to the other side, and swap them.  THEN i solder the switches.

    that way, the teensy pins are in the normal orientation.

    if I keep the teensy on the right hand side, I need to solder the pins facing upwards.  the end result of that is the button will be almost touching the ergodox pcb?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 16 July 2014, 03:22:25
    it IS easier moving the teensy to the LH right?  so I just literally flip both hands to the other side, and swap them.  THEN i solder the switches.

    that way, the teensy pins are in the normal orientation.

    That should be easier as far as soldering (especially the I/O expander).  It would be more difficult to generate layouts though.

    if I keep the teensy on the right hand side, I need to solder the pins facing upwards.  the end result of that is the button will be almost touching the ergodox pcb?

    This way layouts would work as normal, but soldering would be more difficult.

    Also, are you sure the Teensy will fit underneath the PCB inside the case you're using?  Others seem to be implying it, but I can't recall if anyone's tested.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Wed, 16 July 2014, 03:31:13
    Technically, yeah, you're right. If you're planning on soldering on the bottom, it's easier on the left. I'm not that good with PCBs to know what to do next to get the TRSS to work (that and the broken IO expander), which is why I used 2 RJ45 cables.

    Good luck getting the MD case to work though... I've tried it and it wouldn't fit, although in my horniness to try it I may have gone ahead and did some bad things.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Wed, 16 July 2014, 10:10:53
    well this is my ergo alps build.
    The main problem is key caps....
    im still two caps short, and the news is apple has its own profile  :eek:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Wed, 16 July 2014, 11:54:40
    it IS easier moving the teensy to the LH right?  so I just literally flip both hands to the other side, and swap them.  THEN i solder the switches.

    that way, the teensy pins are in the normal orientation.

    That should be easier as far as soldering (especially the I/O expander).  It would be more difficult to generate layouts though.

    if I keep the teensy on the right hand side, I need to solder the pins facing upwards.  the end result of that is the button will be almost touching the ergodox pcb?

    This way layouts would work as normal, but soldering would be more difficult.

    Also, are you sure the Teensy will fit underneath the PCB inside the case you're using?  Others seem to be implying it, but I can't recall if anyone's tested.

    i'm usung AKM's meral ergodox case and i ordered enough for 4 hands.  that should let me mix and match to give me enough room :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 16 July 2014, 13:34:04
    Oh cool, I hadn't heard of AKM's case before.  I also hadn't seen a board with Alps before (@Ikong: nice :) ).  Lol, guess I'm pretty out of the loop by now...

    Technically, yeah, you're right. If you're planning on soldering on the bottom, it's easier on the left. I'm not that good with PCBs to know what to do next to get the TRSS to work (that and the broken IO expander), which is why I used 2 RJ45 cables.

    If you just solder everything as normal, but the switches on the opposite side, things should work.  Or alternately, if you're soldering the chips upside down underneath the board, you just need to make sure everything is going through the same hole it would have been had you soldered everything normally on the top of the board.  About the I/O expander, they're pretty cheap... actually, shipping would be the most annoying thing, if that's all you're ordering.  If you're still concerned about it, you might send a quick message to Massdrop to see if they could help.  Maybe not of course, since you broke it, but they're pretty nice people, so it could be worth a try.

    Good luck getting the MD case to work though... I've tried it and it wouldn't fit, although in my horniness to try it I may have gone ahead and did some bad things.

    Grr, I suspected.  For the sake of completeness (even though tbc is using a different case), it's possible that it might barely fit underneath in a litster if you mounted the Teensy flush with the PCB (i.e. without those black spacers on the pins).  You have to be careful doing this, and put plastic or something between the Teensy and the PCB to insulate it, but it seems to work :) .  I mounted the Teensy this way on the top of some of my boards, so that I'd have room for LEDs above it in my modded Litster cases.  Of course, if one wanted to go crazy, one could also desolder the Teensy's USB connector, and just run their wires directly to save vertical space.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Wed, 16 July 2014, 21:49:35
    My dox actually has a few run-off cables... since the RJ45 cables will never fit in the keyboard, I had to make a port outside the case... with associated dangling cables. Truly cyberpunk in nature.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yuiop on Fri, 18 July 2014, 04:52:45
    So I guess I should post here as well.  I just finished re-building mine with AKmalamute's alu case.
    It might not be the most aesthetically pleasing - it's raw aluminum - but the quality of laser work is superb.

    (http://i.imgur.com/XgcW7vm.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/WTSW8cP.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/2GvggPI.jpg)
    I also used MD's clear acrylic top and bottom plate.  Looks nicer with those.

    So here's the detailed pic showing all the layers and how I have them separated.  pretty much self-explanatory.
    (http://i.imgur.com/NrpZUrs.jpg)
    Two M3 nuts (4~5mm) separating the top layer and the plate.  This provides just enough clearance for teensy + on-board usb.
    I have 8mm aluminum spacers between the plate and the bottom (idea suggested by dorkvader).
    I wouldn't use anything shorter than 8mm.  Might short the switches and/or teensy. I got those spacers from here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-M3-x-8mm-Aluminium-Pillar-Spacer-Female-Female-Inner-Thread-gi-/360931803097)

    (http://i.imgur.com/RDRZdVu.jpg)
    tented with these (http://www.ebay.com/itm/261467860757)

    Vinyl wrapped in brushed metal finish :thumb:
    (http://i.imgur.com/j8dvIUq.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/I1r12pR.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/5Ft5Ly2.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/Z92IW65.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/HHSE3t0.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Fri, 18 July 2014, 11:59:32
    Nice :) thanks for the pics.  I imagine, like the acrylic only case, it looks even better in person.  Can't say I'm a fan of three noncontiguous layers in general though...  For some reason they just look unfinished to me...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yuiop on Fri, 18 July 2014, 13:56:48
    It doesn't bother me that much but I can see why it would bother some :)  I also ordered some 'spacer' layers which were designed to fill the gaps between those main layers.  But I ended up not using them for this build mainly because it already felt rock-solid and much more sturdy than the acrylic case I've had.  Overall I'm really happy with this build.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Fri, 18 July 2014, 23:00:36
    Anyone know how to open the ergodox gerber PCB design file?  I tried with the opensourced gerbv program and online viewer which neither work. Renaming the file to .gbr doesn't help.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lkong on Sun, 20 July 2014, 13:58:55
    Anyone know how to open the ergodox gerber PCB design file?  I tried with the opensourced gerbv program and online viewer which neither work. Renaming the file to .gbr doesn't help.
    Try this one: http://www.numericalinnovations.com/pages/dfm-now-free-gerber-viewer
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 23 July 2014, 02:48:13
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Wed, 23 July 2014, 04:43:14
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 23 July 2014, 10:42:33
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.

    Maybe that's it! I need to move the teensy key out of the way... probably to use the button only.

    Thanks sakai4eva!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Mon, 28 July 2014, 05:17:33
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.

    Maybe that's it! I need to move the teensy key out of the way... probably to use the button only.

    Thanks sakai4eva!

    Well, It was not solved. Seems to be happening with OSX 10.9.4. Anybody has this problem?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Mon, 28 July 2014, 05:57:14
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.

    Maybe that's it! I need to move the teensy key out of the way... probably to use the button only.

    Thanks sakai4eva!

    Well, It was not solved. Seems to be happening with OSX 10.9.4. Anybody has this problem?
    Try with better USB cable. I have a particular cable where it often occur, while the other cable does not. So it seems to be a factor.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sakai4eva on Mon, 28 July 2014, 06:25:48
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.

    Maybe that's it! I need to move the teensy key out of the way... probably to use the button only.

    Thanks sakai4eva!

    Well, It was not solved. Seems to be happening with OSX 10.9.4. Anybody has this problem?
    If you're using the massdrop kit, check your solder joints between the teensy and the USB also. Otherwise, I have no idea what you can do already.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Mon, 28 July 2014, 07:27:24
    Guys, I've been having problems with my ergodox, sometimes it just "turns off". I need to unplug it and plug it back again. Do any of you is having this issue? I seriously have no clue why that happens. (I think I read something similar in a post months ago, but the search function of the board is quite limited)

    Might be due to the reset button being activated or the reset pin being shorted.

    Maybe that's it! I need to move the teensy key out of the way... probably to use the button only.

    Thanks sakai4eva!

    Well, It was not solved. Seems to be happening with OSX 10.9.4. Anybody has this problem?

    Ever consider to replace the TRRS cable? Or try to improve the connections?

    On my first ergodox, at first everything is ok, but after several months of use, bad TRRS cable start to kill it far too often.
    The symptom is similar: ergodox will stop responding, and I have to un-plug/re-plug, but eventually this won't work.
    Finally I ordered a custom cable, and it is significantly improved, nearly never happened again.

    On my second ergodox, I use RJ11 instead of TRRS, and the third one use mini-usb cable.
    RJ11 has been proved much much more stable than TRRS, I really love it.
    The mini-usb cable seems nice and with a lower profile, but I haven't used it long enough to justify its superiority over TRRS.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 29 July 2014, 01:24:05

    If you're using the massdrop kit, check your solder joints between the teensy and the USB also. Otherwise, I have no idea what you can do already.

    It's from the massdrop kit, but the solder Joints are Fine. I test them very well, and all are perfect.


    Try with better USB cable. I have a particular cable where it often occur, while the other cable does not. So it seems to be a factor.

    That's actually a very probable cause. But I have a cable tester and it shows that it's perfect. It "might" be the female connector.
    Same for the TRRS cable. I did also the poor man's test: moved the cables like crazy when connected to see if, for a second,
    the caps lock turns off or the keyboard stops working.

    Ever consider to replace the TRRS cable? Or try to improve the connections?

    On my first ergodox, at first everything is ok, but after several months of use, bad TRRS cable start to kill it far too often.
    The symptom is similar: ergodox will stop responding, and I have to un-plug/re-plug, but eventually this won't work.
    Finally I ordered a custom cable, and it is significantly improved, nearly never happened again.

    On my second ergodox, I use RJ11 instead of TRRS, and the third one use mini-usb cable.
    RJ11 has been proved much much more stable than TRRS, I really love it.
    The mini-usb cable seems nice and with a lower profile, but I haven't used it long enough to justify its superiority over TRRS.

    Do you have a picture of your keyboard?

    I do not know why the TRRS was the choice (probably due to the profile?) but I can tell you that the way they connect is the same principle used on the audio jacks, and that's very solid (as tested in the audio and video industry). The cable, however, is another story.
     
    I did restart the laptop (like a week being on) and since then all works dandy. Now to try and retest everything I put the new black plate from massdrop, clean it, and same... works!

    Let me check It could be an issue with OSX. Or maybe controllermate? I'll try to see if it happens again, and I'll report back in a couple of days.
     
     
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jakemcc on Tue, 29 July 2014, 18:54:31
    This is going to sound a bit ridiculous but make sure you have not accidentally entered another layer. Occasionally I accidentally switch to another layer and do not realize it and consequently think something is going wrong.

    As a result I've now made an LED turn on when I'm not in my typing layer. Now when I think something goes wrong I just have to look down to see if an LED is on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 29 July 2014, 19:09:29

    Vinyl wrapped in brushed metal finish :thumb:
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/j8dvIUq.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/I1r12pR.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5Ft5Ly2.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/Z92IW65.jpg)

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/HHSE3t0.jpg)


    Im in love! is there any way to "brush" the MD Aluminum plate?

    BTW, is the acrylic not getting scratched?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 29 July 2014, 19:13:00
    This is going to sound a bit ridiculous but make sure you have not accidentally entered another layer. Occasionally I accidentally switch to another layer and do not realize it and consequently think something is going wrong.

    As a result I've now made an LED turn on when I'm not in my typing layer. Now when I think something goes wrong I just have to look down to see if an LED is on.

    Well, I have just temporary layer switchers.
    Is there a way on the MD Ergodox configurator to turn the leds per layer? Or how are you doing it?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 29 July 2014, 19:50:49
    Ever consider to replace the TRRS cable? Or try to improve the connections?

    On my first ergodox, at first everything is ok, but after several months of use, bad TRRS cable start to kill it far too often.
    The symptom is similar: ergodox will stop responding, and I have to un-plug/re-plug, but eventually this won't work.
    Finally I ordered a custom cable, and it is significantly improved, nearly never happened again.

    On my second ergodox, I use RJ11 instead of TRRS, and the third one use mini-usb cable.
    RJ11 has been proved much much more stable than TRRS, I really love it.
    The mini-usb cable seems nice and with a lower profile, but I haven't used it long enough to justify its superiority over TRRS.

    Do you have a picture of your keyboard?

    I do not know why the TRRS was the choice (probably due to the profile?) but I can tell you that the way they connect is the same principle used on the audio jacks, and that's very solid (as tested in the audio and video industry). The cable, however, is another story.

    Which one? The one with RJ11 can be found in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55043.0
    The one with mini-usb can be found in page 114 of this thread
    If you need more detailed pics, just let me know.

    As for TRRS, I think the connector is solid and good, however, most cable we can find are just too thin and prone to break, or maybe introduce too much noise to the I2C lines.
    I don't know about the cables from massdrop, but several cables (at least 3) I found all lead to non-responsiveness, more or less, after some time of use.
    That's why I finally ordered a custom cable, and it worked very well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 30 July 2014, 14:57:17
    Ever consider to replace the TRRS cable? Or try to improve the connections?

    On my first ergodox, at first everything is ok, but after several months of use, bad TRRS cable start to kill it far too often.
    The symptom is similar: ergodox will stop responding, and I have to un-plug/re-plug, but eventually this won't work.
    Finally I ordered a custom cable, and it is significantly improved, nearly never happened again.

    On my second ergodox, I use RJ11 instead of TRRS, and the third one use mini-usb cable.
    RJ11 has been proved much much more stable than TRRS, I really love it.
    The mini-usb cable seems nice and with a lower profile, but I haven't used it long enough to justify its superiority over TRRS.

    Do you have a picture of your keyboard?

    I do not know why the TRRS was the choice (probably due to the profile?) but I can tell you that the way they connect is the same principle used on the audio jacks, and that's very solid (as tested in the audio and video industry). The cable, however, is another story.

    Which one? The one with RJ11 can be found in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55043.0
    The one with mini-usb can be found in page 114 of this thread
    If you need more detailed pics, just let me know.

    As for TRRS, I think the connector is solid and good, however, most cable we can find are just too thin and prone to break, or maybe introduce too much noise to the I2C lines.
    I don't know about the cables from massdrop, but several cables (at least 3) I found all lead to non-responsiveness, more or less, after some time of use.
    That's why I finally ordered a custom cable, and it worked very well.

    Oh, I see your ergodox. I even commented about the tilting.

    Well, I'ts been working fine for 2 days, what tells me that it was possibly the OS. but I left some things at hand running that will let me know if it's actually a software or hardware problem.

    Since my ergodox is already assembled, I get so lazy about doing extra mods... If needed, I will get another TRRS cable, and if still have problems (and I'm sure it's due to that) I'll use a micro USB. Im not fond of the RJ45 (maybe due to having using that one in several projects and had multiple problems due to shielding)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 30 July 2014, 15:00:43
    How do you guys clean your ErgoDox acrylic? I've seen pictures where it looks pristine, but mine look dirty from the beginning. Is it just an effect on the pictures? or really is crystal clear?

    Also, for those that have 2 different sizes (full hand vs classic) which one do you prefer? I have a full hand, but Im thinking of getting a classic one for my next one.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 30 July 2014, 15:32:42
    Litster recommended me a cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UD0GFE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that seems to have worked pretty well :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 30 July 2014, 16:53:51
    Litster recommended me a cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UD0GFE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that seems to have worked pretty well :-)

    Mmmm may have to give it a try... So it's possible to have the acrylic blemish and spot free???
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 30 July 2014, 17:46:28
    Litster recommended me a cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UD0GFE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that seems to have worked pretty well :-)

    Mmmm may have to give it a try... So it's possible to have the acrylic blemish and spot free???

    Well, I mean, you'll still have some dust unless you're in a clean room (sometimes I wish I had one of those! lol) -- and you might also get moisture spots with this stuff that dry as you might expect given the thin milky look of the liquid (I did anyway, thought it might have been preventable) -- and the layers probably aren't airtight, so some dust might sneak in there after the fact (I'm pretty sure some has snuck into mine).  I briefly contemplated supergluing most of the layers together, to get around these issues, but decided that would be waaaay too much work to even think about, lol.  IIRC (even though it's been a while) the cleaner did help, the acrylic even seemed not to attract dust quite so readily after being cleaned, and overall I'm happy with the results.  Didn't bother to try anything else for comparison -- figured litster (who designed the case, after all) ought to know what he's talking about :-) .
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 30 July 2014, 18:46:57
    Litster recommended me a cleaner (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UD0GFE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that seems to have worked pretty well :-)

    Mmmm may have to give it a try... So it's possible to have the acrylic blemish and spot free???

    Well, I mean, you'll still have some dust unless you're in a clean room (sometimes I wish I had one of those! lol) -- and you might also get moisture spots with this stuff that dry as you might expect given the thin milky look of the liquid (I did anyway, thought it might have been preventable) -- and the layers probably aren't airtight, so some dust might sneak in there after the fact (I'm pretty sure some has snuck into mine).  I briefly contemplated supergluing most of the layers together, to get around these issues, but decided that would be waaaay too much work to even think about, lol.  IIRC (even though it's been a while) the cleaner did help, the acrylic even seemed not to attract dust quite so readily after being cleaned, and overall I'm happy with the results.  Didn't bother to try anything else for comparison -- figured litster (who designed the case, after all) ought to know what he's talking about :-) .

    yes, Pretty sure Litster knew what he was talking about ;)

    After seeing the cases that are not made of layers, I simply wanted one. But the acrylic layers has its charm. I've only used the top plates on aluminum (now black aluminum) because without them it just looks dirty (probably due to the substance I used to clean it). Im going to wait for some new set of keys to arrive and probably assemble one new just in acrylic. I was also waiting for the new PCB for leds but that day may not come.



    Title: anotherjunkie
    Post by: anotherjunkie on Wed, 30 July 2014, 19:55:45
    Hi guys...

    After almost a year of lusting, I've finally broken down and decided to order an ErgoDox. I have a few specific needs (er... special needs -- I'm disabled), that ultimately come down to the following two questions that I hope someone can answer.

    First, when programming layers/ key macros, is the programming stored on the board's firmware, or on a program running on the machine? I want to make sure that the settings I make are stored/portable between machines. I'm not super knowledgeable about keyboards, but I think that this issue goes hand in hand with the following: if I press the "1" key, to which I have assigned a macro that should output "$1." will the ErgoDox tell the computer that I've pressed the keys "$" and "1" and ".", or will it tell the computer that I pressed "1", and wait for the program running on the machine to realize that it triggers a macro and translate "1" to "$1."?

    Second, and my biggest concern, is whether or not there is a way to connect the ErgoDox via Bluetooth -- even if that requires some additional modding. My real issue here is that I need to be able to use it with my iPad, as I'm not always able to be at my computer when I want to be, but iPads require a Bluetooth connection. I've seen some small boxes that connect to the keyboard's USB cable and then use Bluetooth to connect to the computer, but I'd really like something a bit cleaner than that, if possible.

    I've done a lot of research, and this seems to be one of the best boards for my physical needs. I just need to work out those two issues before pushing the button. I really appreciate any help you can offer.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Wed, 30 July 2014, 21:25:55
    1.  stored on keyboard

    2. not with the default setup.  i'm not sure of any successful bluetooth variation.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Hundrakia on Wed, 30 July 2014, 21:30:11
    It may be possible with something like an EZfruit, instead of a teensy or w/e they are loaded with. One with built in Bluetooth HID capabilities. That being said, I have noticed a few threads on here have various Bluetooth nodded keyboards.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Wed, 30 July 2014, 21:33:57
    ^ i swear someone is doing that exfruit mod right now....but i csn't think of where the 'build log' is or the status
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Wed, 30 July 2014, 22:05:53
    @anotherjunkie:  Note also that macros must be defined in source at this point (no matter who's firmware you're using, as far as I know).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: anotherjunkie on Wed, 30 July 2014, 22:08:53
    Okay, great. Thanks everyone! Maybe I will go with one of the add-on boxes for when I really need Bluetooth, until I can come up with a consolidated solution. As long as the layout and macros are portable, I don't really mind jumping through some hoops to define them. :-)

    Has anyone here ever tried using it with an iPad, through whatever means?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Thu, 31 July 2014, 05:07:02
    @anotherjunkie:  Note also that macros must be defined in source at this point (no matter who's firmware you're using, as far as I know).
    Chrisandreae's firmware has both on the fly Macro and Remap functionality (similar as Kinesis Advantage has).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ic07 on Thu, 31 July 2014, 11:54:36
    @anotherjunkie:  Note also that macros must be defined in source at this point (no matter who's firmware you're using, as far as I know).
    Chrisandreae's firmware has both on the fly Macro and Remap functionality (similar as Kinesis Advantage has).

    I hadn't seen his firmware :) .  I think his macro/remap functionality might require a separate EEPROM module right now though (the code and documentation seemed to indicate as much, but I could be wrong).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madik on Thu, 31 July 2014, 14:11:43
    Hi guys. I have few questions.
    1. What are you suggesting for a keycaps set? There are two blank options in MD groupbuy. DCA or DCS design. Any tips on what is better to go with? Or will any other standard keycaps set do the job? I prefer non-blank keycaps tho.
    2. Are Cherry stabilizers supported for a wider keys like space or enter? I much prefer Cherry stabs but Costar could do too.
    3. Not ErgoDox related but are there any other alive DIY projects with full keyboard kits that i can assembly myself like Ergodox?
    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Thu, 31 July 2014, 17:22:49
    I hadn't seen his firmware :) .  I think his macro/remap functionality might require a separate EEPROM module right now though (the code and documentation seemed to indicate as much, but I could be wrong).
    You are right, it is easy to add though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Fri, 01 August 2014, 19:10:08
    Hi guys. I have few questions.
    1. What are you suggesting for a keycaps set? There are two blank options in MD groupbuy. DCA or DCS design. Any tips on what is better to go with? Or will any other standard keycaps set do the job? I prefer non-blank keycaps tho.

    It's a taste thing. I prefer DCS but you may like DCA more... If you do not know the difference, don't sweat it. Any will do great with your keyboard.
    see the key families here.
    http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php (http://keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php)

    2. Are Cherry stabilizers supported for a wider keys like space or enter? I much prefer Cherry stabs but Costar could do too.

    Nope. No stabilizers at all in the Ergodox. However, they are not needed (The biggest keys are 2u)

    3. Not ErgoDox related but are there any other alive DIY projects with full keyboard kits that i can assembly myself like Ergodox?
    Thanks!

    Non as successful as the Ergodox, and no other that you can find a complete kit sale.
    Check the DIY projects. Most are on development. Smallfry's 40% and AcidFire's Modular to mention some.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jakemcc on Sat, 02 August 2014, 10:10:29
    This is going to sound a bit ridiculous but make sure you have not accidentally entered another layer. Occasionally I accidentally switch to another layer and do not realize it and consequently think something is going wrong.

    As a result I've now made an LED turn on when I'm not in my typing layer. Now when I think something goes wrong I just have to look down to see if an LED is on.

    Well, I have just temporary layer switchers.
    Is there a way on the MD Ergodox configurator to turn the leds per layer? Or how are you doing it?

    I have a fork of some benblazak/ergodox-firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) that I've modified. The commit that lights up one of the LEDs is here (https://github.com/jakemcc/ergodox-firmware/commit/383f16a3f091b4e2dd031d098007c4289cc1a261).

    Downside to lighting up that LED is that I don't have a transparent keycap so it can be a bit hard to see. I may look into lighting up the teensy LED instead or try to find a keycap that would let the light through.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Sat, 02 August 2014, 11:49:38
    This is going to sound a bit ridiculous but make sure you have not accidentally entered another layer. Occasionally I accidentally switch to another layer and do not realize it and consequently think something is going wrong.

    As a result I've now made an LED turn on when I'm not in my typing layer. Now when I think something goes wrong I just have to look down to see if an LED is on.

    Well, I have just temporary layer switchers.
    Is there a way on the MD Ergodox configurator to turn the leds per layer? Or how are you doing it?

    I have a fork of some benblazak/ergodox-firmware (https://github.com/benblazak/ergodox-firmware) that I've modified. The commit that lights up one of the LEDs is here (https://github.com/jakemcc/ergodox-firmware/commit/383f16a3f091b4e2dd031d098007c4289cc1a261).

    Downside to lighting up that LED is that I don't have a transparent keycap so it can be a bit hard to see. I may look into lighting up the teensy LED instead or try to find a keycap that would let the light through.

    Thanks for the links.
    Ass this should be incorporated as optional on the MD configurator... and so many hacks to the same firmware!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Sun, 03 August 2014, 08:58:10
    @yuiop
    Just saw your ergodox and I´m stunned by the brushed look.
    Is that the same aluminum plate (same finish) that comes with the massdrop buy, or did you finish it yourself.
    If you did it yourself....how did you do that?

    Greets
    Flo
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 04 August 2014, 12:40:15
    @yuiop
    Just saw your ergodox and I´m stunned by the brushed look.
    Is that the same aluminum plate (same finish) that comes with the massdrop buy, or did you finish it yourself.
    If you did it yourself....how did you do that?

    Greets
    Flo

     While I haven't necessarily seen the exact image you're referring too, I know he got a metal case from the GB I just finished running ... So, no not Massdrop. If you keep an eye on the [interest check] and [group buy] sub-forums, you should see in the vicinity of a month from now, another run of these cases. Not sure if it'll be me or not, but it'll happen again.

     I'm typing on one now, actually. Stainless steel, phone cord to connect the halves. I just keep missing the backspace, which means I tab out of the typing field, then hit the backspace, and poof! lose all my typing. Crap.

     But that's a layout concern, and a typing skill thing. The case is pretty nice. The shop manager thinks I should get it nickel plated ... which I'm seriously considering, actually. I'll post pictures here if it happens :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yuiop on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:40:59
    @yuiop
    Just saw your ergodox and I´m stunned by the brushed look.
    Is that the same aluminum plate (same finish) that comes with the massdrop buy, or did you finish it yourself.
    If you did it yourself....how did you do that?

    Greets
    Flo

    Thanks ;)
    While I did use MD's acrylic top and bottom to finish up my case, I got all the aluminum layers from AKM's groupbuy.
    (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55651.0)

    As for the brushed look you see here
    More
    (http://i.imgur.com/XgcW7vm.jpg)

    I just sanded them with 400 grit sandpaper.  Very easy and take 5 min.

    The brushed black you see here is the 3M vinyl wrap.
    More
    (http://i.imgur.com/5Ft5Ly2.jpg)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Mon, 04 August 2014, 15:52:56
    The brushed black you see here is the 3M vinyl wrap.
    More
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/5Ft5Ly2.jpg)

    would you mind telling us the EXACT model of the 3m vinyl wrap? I haven't seen one like that. It looks awesome! I thought it was the sanded aluminum!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yuiop on Mon, 04 August 2014, 16:09:45
    It's this one (http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_EU/3MGraphics/GraphicSolutions/Products/Catalogue/~/3M-Wrap-Film-1080-BR212-Brushed-Black-Metallic-1-52-m-x-25-m-?N=3294576302&rt=d)  :-X
    You can get it from here (http://www.metrorestyling.com/3M-Scotchprint-1080-Brushed-Black-Metallic-Vinyl-p/3m1080-br212.htm) or ebay etc.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Mon, 04 August 2014, 16:58:33
    That´s a wrap???  ...it looks like real brushed metal in your pic.
    Smart idea. I was already wondering how your got that even texture with sandpaper or something similar.  :cool:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 05 August 2014, 13:44:03
    That´s a wrap???  ...it looks like real brushed metal in your pic.
    Smart idea. I was already wondering how your got that even texture with sandpaper or something similar.  :cool:

    Thought the same. It's incredible how it looks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 05 August 2014, 13:47:50
    @yuiop: in the product page it looks too dark, Maybe the angle makes it look different...  your post shows like is more brilliant but the angle makes it look darker...

    could you please post another picture of another angle of your black brushed metal ergodox?  please? :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yuiop on Tue, 05 August 2014, 15:11:00
    My pics might be misleading because I have clear acrylic top which makes it look more brilliant and shiny, i think.   I'd say the sample pics on metrorestyling website is more accurate.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madik on Wed, 06 August 2014, 02:33:29
    Was anyone experimenting with various switches on the ErgoDox boards?
    I thinking about:

    MX Clear as a base
    MX Browns for keys accessed by pinky fingers
    MX Green for ESC and Enter perhaps
    MX Grey for Space, Backspace and del
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yakitysax on Wed, 06 August 2014, 05:17:00
    Was anyone experimenting with various switches on the ErgoDox boards?
    I thinking about:

    MX Clear as a base
    MX Browns for keys accessed by pinky fingers
    MX Green for ESC and Enter perhaps
    MX Grey for Space, Backspace and del
    I use Clears with spring swapped on them, no lube used either: I use springs from MX browns on all the keys except for the thumb cluster where I use 50g and 55g limited springs purchased a long time ago from Originative Co, but you should get them elsewhere nowadays most likely. The only keys I find that need heavier springs sans lube (after they have been broken in) than the MX brown/red/blue springs are the keys I hit offcenter in the thumb cluster, and even then not for all of them.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madik on Wed, 06 August 2014, 05:48:17
    Was anyone experimenting with various switches on the ErgoDox boards?
    I thinking about:

    MX Clear as a base
    MX Browns for keys accessed by pinky fingers
    MX Green for ESC and Enter perhaps
    MX Grey for Space, Backspace and del
    I use Clears with spring swapped on them, no lube used either: I use springs from MX browns on all the keys except for the thumb cluster where I use 50g and 55g limited springs purchased a long time ago from Originative Co, but you should get them elsewhere nowadays most likely. The only keys I find that need heavier springs sans lube (after they have been broken in) than the MX brown/red/blue springs are the keys I hit offcenter in the thumb cluster, and even then not for all of them.
    I will be buying the switches from 7bit and i can get any of the switches for the same price. But the idea about ErgoClears is tempting. I can swap the springs with the springs from blues that i dont need anymore.
    I think that i will get few Greys and Greens and will see where I could put them. Even idea of Blacks/Reds for the modifier keys is interesting since the tactile feedback isnt needed there much.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Wed, 06 August 2014, 15:01:31
    My pics might be misleading because I have clear acrylic top which makes it look more brilliant and shiny, i think.   I'd say the sample pics on metrorestyling website is more accurate.

    Yeap. well, still looks shiny and good!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bmarcaur on Fri, 08 August 2014, 00:51:31
    Hey Guys!

    I am having an interesting issue with my newly finished Ergodox.

    After installing the firmware I was unable to get my pc to recognize the device, but when I install something like the blink.hex on the device I can unplug it and plug it in and the computer recognizes it each time (makes the you plugged something in noise).

    I am sure this isnt a firmware issue as ALL of you have working ergodox's, but I'm confused as to what the issue might be. If I had a bad teensy then why does it work with different programs installed on it.

    I have a multimeter and I double checked all the diodes and they are all fine. I can't see any obvious shorts. What are some other things I can test with my multimeter. My electronic skills are quite rusty IDK what values I should be expecting when I poke around it is entirely arbitrary. I appreciate any insight you guys might have.

    Thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Thu, 14 August 2014, 15:38:58
    Hey Guys!

    I am having an interesting issue with my newly finished Ergodox.

    After installing the firmware I was unable to get my pc to recognize the device, but when I install something like the blink.hex on the device I can unplug it and plug it in and the computer recognizes it each time (makes the you plugged something in noise).

    I am sure this isnt a firmware issue as ALL of you have working ergodox's, but I'm confused as to what the issue might be. If I had a bad teensy then why does it work with different programs installed on it.

    I have a multimeter and I double checked all the diodes and they are all fine. I can't see any obvious shorts. What are some other things I can test with my multimeter. My electronic skills are quite rusty IDK what values I should be expecting when I poke around it is entirely arbitrary. I appreciate any insight you guys might have.

    Thanks

    Was the keyboard recognized before the firmware?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bmarcaur on Fri, 15 August 2014, 22:04:00
    No it wasn't, but Ill be honest I built the whole thing including adding the teensy before I plugged it in for the first time. A mistake, I am now realizing cause I have no baseline.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SubGothius on Tue, 19 August 2014, 21:17:49
    Dunno if this has been mentioned already (apparently no thread-specific search tool I could find here?), but I finally found some TRRS cables with right-angle plugs at BOTH ends! The ones I got seem to work just fine so far.
    Also found some decent, reasonably-priced USB cables with choice of right-angle or left-angle USB Mini B plugs:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kaltar on Tue, 26 August 2014, 13:20:45
    Dunno if this has been mentioned already (apparently no thread-specific search tool I could find here?), but I finally found some TRRS cables with right-angle plugs at BOTH ends! The ones I got seem to work just fine so far.
    • 2 foot length (http://www.amazon.com/Valley-4-Pole-3-5mm-Right-Stereo/dp/B00IYWBHE4/);
    • 3 foot length (http://www.amazon.com/Valley-4-Pole-3-5mm-Right-Stereo/dp/B00IYW8MGA/);
    • 6 foot length (http://www.amazon.com/Valley-4-Pole-3-5mm-Right-Stereo/dp/B00IYW5CTK/).
    Also found some decent, reasonably-priced USB cables with choice of right-angle or left-angle USB Mini B plugs:
    • 3 foot right angle (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Mini-USB-Cable-USB2HABM3RA/dp/B004W8EIMW/);
    • 6 foot right angle (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Mini-USB-Cable-USB2HABM6RA/dp/B004NO0L4O/);
    • 3 foot left angle (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Mini-USB-Cable-USB2HABM3LA/dp/B004YD6LW0/);
    • 6 foot left angle (http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-Mini-USB-Cable-USB2HABM6LA/dp/B004NNTV6O/).

    Good find. Thanks for letting us know. Im sure many will find it useful.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jmatejka on Thu, 28 August 2014, 14:09:07
    I'm having a hard time finding the lister case design files (or similar ones) for laser cutting.

    The link here http://ergodox.org/Downloads/ErgoDox_Acrylic_Case_Designed_by_Litster.zip seems to be broken.


    Other places where I have found the .dxf files, I am unable to open them in AutoCAD or any other program for that matter.

    I'd really like the files in .ai format, but does anyone know where I can find a copy of the files in any format?


    Thanks,
    Justin
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Thu, 28 August 2014, 20:39:13
    I'm having a hard time finding the lister case design files (or similar ones) for laser cutting.

    https://github.com/bishboria/ErgoDox

    You may need to use a newer version of autocad to open these files, like 2013.

    The zip file can also be found somewhere in this thread...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AcidFire on Thu, 04 September 2014, 19:16:53
    If you have troubles finding laser files, I should have some covered EPS versions floating around my desktop somewhere.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jbm on Sat, 06 September 2014, 14:25:05
    I finished building my ErgoDox last weekend, and have been using it since then without any problems.

    However, there is one thing that seems unusual: the first/top LED is always on, regardless of caps/num/scroll lock.

    It's not supposed to be like that, is it? Any idea what could cause it?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 06 September 2014, 15:00:07
    Aren’t caps lock / num lock / scroll lock sent to the keyboard by the computer? Maybe the computer thinks one of them is turned on. (You could test this theory by putting the appropriate key (numlock, etc.) in your key layout and see what happens when you press it.)

    Alternately, you could modify the firmware to do something else interesting with that LED, or you could remove the LED entirely if you don’t need it for anything.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jbm on Sat, 06 September 2014, 16:37:35
    Aren’t caps lock / num lock / scroll lock sent to the keyboard by the computer? Maybe the computer thinks one of them is turned on. (You could test this theory by putting the appropriate key (numlock, etc.) in your key layout and see what happens when you press it.)

    You were absolutely right, it was numlock after all. I thought I had already tested this, but I must have misunderstood where numlock was on the initial layout.

    A bit embarrassing, but better than if it'd been a problem with the keyboard. Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: chrisandreae on Fri, 12 September 2014, 04:56:33
    @anotherjunkie:  Note also that macros must be defined in source at this point (no matter who's firmware you're using, as far as I know).
    Chrisandreae's firmware has both on the fly Macro and Remap functionality (similar as Kinesis Advantage has).

    I hadn't seen his firmware :) .  I think his macro/remap functionality might require a separate EEPROM module right now though (the code and documentation seemed to indicate as much, but I could be wrong).

    Remapping and saved layout profiles don't require the external EEPROM (they use the Teensy's internal EEPROM), but recorded macros and interpreter programs do.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 17 September 2014, 01:47:18
    Folks following this thread may be interested in my new thread, “fixing the Ergodox thumb section”:
    http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: primitiveType on Thu, 18 September 2014, 10:29:39
    Hey guys, I'm working on making a case plate for the ergodox, but  in order for it to fit right, the components all have to be on the back side of the pcb. I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to do this. I started out by trying to simply mount them on the back, but running everyhing to the same pins that they would be mounted. I knew that this would definintely "work", unfortunately it's kind of impossible to mount the trrs connectors this way.

    On the pcb it says "Components are intended to be placed on the side they are drawn. It is however possible to invert the design. See the webpage for further instructions."
    However, the webpage does not seem to say anything about this.

    I found this line on the wiki: "The PCB design is reversible: the same type of PCB is used for both the left and right side. This means that it is possible to reverse the positions of the Teensy and the I/O expander, but then they would have to be mounted upside-down. Jumpers on the top of the PCB are also used." This sounds promising but it's a little unclear. Do I solder everything on the back side? If so, won't that make the default firmware(s) backwards?

    I just want to know how I can mount everything on the bottom instead of the top, without having to edit the firmware (if that's possible). Anyone have any ideas?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Grendel on Thu, 18 September 2014, 12:21:43
    You could try this: load the PCB's with everything except the switches and diodes, then flip the boards over and load the switches on the opposite side and the diodes on "top" (or use switches w/ diodes inside.) The left hand side now carries the Teensy, the right hand the I/O extender. If you mind the diodes direction the only change in the firmware should be a new layer definition.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: primitiveType on Thu, 18 September 2014, 12:52:30
    You could try this: load the PCB's with everything except the switches and diodes, then flip the boards over and load the switches on the opposite side and the diodes on "top" (or use switches w/ diodes inside.) The left hand side now carries the Teensy, the right hand the I/O extender. If you mind the diodes direction the only change in the firmware should be a new layer definition.

    Thanks for the reply. Doesn't this mean that the keymap will be backwards? So when I'm making my keymap I have to think mirrored?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Grendel on Thu, 18 September 2014, 13:45:25
    Yes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: primitiveType on Thu, 18 September 2014, 13:49:28
    What if I then flipped the diodes? doesn't that basically flip the mapping?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Grendel on Thu, 18 September 2014, 13:51:58
    No, that would just reverse the row/column scan logic.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: madik on Wed, 24 September 2014, 07:43:54
    Guys do you know If the PCB mounted Mini USB connector could be easily replaced by a Plate mounted Micro USB connector ?
    I am having a hardtime buying TRRS cable and Mini-USB to USB cables in the same color. Micro USB to USB cables are much easier to get in whatever color you want. And also the micro USB connector is more durable. Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 24 September 2014, 17:22:22
    Sure, use whatever USB connector you want. You might have to hot glue it or something if it doesn't fit on the PCB.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: alisdair on Fri, 26 September 2014, 02:53:51
    I just finished my Ergodox build yesterday, and I'm having a strange problem with some of the keys. Help!

    When I press the top left key on the right-hand board, it causes the first five keys in that row to fire. Same goes for the key below it. One of the thumb cluster keys on the same board seems to cause a number of strange keycodes, including numpad keys (which my layout doesn't have bound on the first layer).

    (Edit: to clarify, my top row is bound to "67890-". All of the keys apart from 6 work as normal. Pressing 6 causes all keys in the row to be pressed at once.)

    I've looked for obvious shorts on the Teensy pins and the rest of the board, and checked all the diodes with my multimeter.

    Does anyone have suggestions for debugging this? I don't understand what's happening.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: GatoGigante on Wed, 08 October 2014, 10:32:30
    I made a mad-ugly case design that, using Ponoko's size scheme, fits on one P3 and one P2 sheet. The P3 covers everything but the plate, and the P2 is just the plate. I have no idea if it will work, and I've never built a keyboard, and basically I am a big dumb babby. It's being laser cut out of only the finest dirt-cheap bamboo as we speak, and once I get it going I'll put up some progress shots. Until then, feel free to take a look at what I've got.
    http://www.ponoko.com/design-your-own/products/ergodox-cheapster-11881 (http://www.ponoko.com/design-your-own/products/ergodox-cheapster-11881)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Fri, 10 October 2014, 09:29:11
    I assembled my ergodox a few weeks ago (using the firmware of benblazak from github), now I´m tweaking my layout (german qwertz).

    Let´s assume I use a layer 1 key in press/release mode (so it just works when pressed, no locking).
    When staying in default layer it takes ALTGR+8 to get the [ sign.

    Can I assign ALTGR+8 to one key in layer 1?
    I want to use the layer 1 key in combination with one key to print a [.

    Is that possible?
     
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:08:57
    You need to use the partial rewrite from Ben. With that newer version, you can easily do macros.

    See examples in http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45211

    I show my macros in comment #58. They do CTRL stuffs so you can do ALTGR stuffs ;-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Fri, 10 October 2014, 14:52:18
     :( And I just got my layout file almost done.
    I´ve just seen that they differ quite a lot in their structure.

    Does anyone know if the "use the teensy led to show layer !=0" mod of the master version also works in the partial rewrite?


     
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zorglups on Sat, 11 October 2014, 01:04:04
    If I remember well, it is the way it is by default. I changed this because my layers are more like modifiers.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Sat, 11 October 2014, 13:51:51
    Thanks for the hint with the partial-rewrite firmware.  :thumb:
    Just got my layout converted and the macros set  :cool:

    The only thing missing is the LED control for LED 1 and LED 2. LED3 is capslock by default and works.
    The /fragments/led-control.part.h already mentions that LED 1 and 2 are controlled by the layer keys, but it doesn´t work.
    I just use lpupoXlX at the moment, maybe that´s the reason...might just work with locking layer keys...

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: snowe on Tue, 14 October 2014, 15:37:31
    Does anyone have an alternative to the MCP23018-E/SP-ND from DigiKey? They're out and I'm impatient and don't want to wait.

    Also, I've seen others ask about flipping the teensy and I/O expander to the other side of the PCB, but all of the solutions involve swapping the teensy to the left side and the I/O expander to the right. If I were to just mount the teensy and I/O expander on the opposite side of the correct boards (teensy on the backside of the right hand and I/O expander on the backside of the left) would it work if I updated the firmware? Or is there a pin on the teensy that needs to lead to a specific spot?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:25:28
    Does anyone have an alternative to the MCP23018-E/SP-ND from DigiKey? They're out and I'm impatient and don't want to wait.
    They are available from a lot of other vendors as well. Just google for MCP23018. The "-E/SP-ND" part might not be part of the part number in some stores, so you would have to read the context to see if it is the correct package.
    BTW, DigiKey's shipping out of USA is quite expensive. I live in Europe and got mine from Mixelec in France.

    There are a few more things to solder than the Teensy and I/O expander. For instance, a few jumpers are different depending on which side you are on. If you swap the sides, the layout will be mirrored.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: snowe on Tue, 14 October 2014, 17:53:59
    They are available from a lot of other vendors as well. Just google for MCP23018. The "-E/SP-ND" part might not be part of the part number in some stores, so you would have to read the context to see if it is the correct package.
    BTW, DigiKey's shipping out of USA is quite expensive. I live in Europe and got mine from Mixelec in France.

    I guess I should have been a little more clear. I know there are other places to get the I/O expander, but the shipping is outrageous for a part that costs $1. It's $20 in shipping from Mouser and $7 from Microchip Direct. I'm wondering what items a MCP23018 might be in that I can desolder it from.

    There are a few more things to solder than the Teensy and I/O expander. For instance, a few jumpers are different depending on which side you are on. If you swap the sides, the layout will be mirrored.

    I'm trying to not swap the sides and therefore not cause any mirroring. I just want to place the teensy on the backside of the righthand PCB. Or are you saying that even if I do that the layout will be mirrored?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: darkfrost on Sat, 18 October 2014, 09:05:57
    Hey, just built my ergodox, it worked at first, but after typing a small amount, I got a bit of repeated input coming up (like sssssssssssssssssssssssssssss constantly being typed)

    Anyway, replugging it fixed that, seemed to be fine. Then next time I tried it, it wouldn't get detected as a keyboard. After a few replug attempts it'd eventually come up and work for a while, then stop responding. Seems to be taking more replug attempts to work.

    But, if I hit the teensy button, it'll boot into the teesny flashing mode and be detected fine, every time.

    I'm not really sure what's wrong, but when running it ergodox mode it's barely detected. Caps lock light won't change, no input, not even showing up in device manager most of the time!

    Any ideas what could cause this? I've tried reflashing it a few times, redid most of the solder joints on the right side, tried plugging in the teensy directly to usb (whilst still soldered to the board though) - same thing.

    My current thought is it might be a faulty teensy, since I'd imagine even if some of the soldering was bad, it'd still get detected as a keyboard? maybe not though

    Any help would be awesome, thanks!

    (P.s. Should the right side work without the left side plugged in? That'd make debugging it a bit easier if I can rule out the left half)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: darkfrost on Sun, 19 October 2014, 01:28:58
    Update: Fixed it! Seemed to be a bad joint on the right side, reflowing every solder joint fixed it somehow
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: worldspawn on Fri, 21 November 2014, 19:30:06
    FYI, There's an awesome group buy over at PMK that includes an ErgoDOX kit: http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/deals/deep-space/
    (http://i.imgur.com/2EOzICo.png)
    (http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ergodox.png)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sat, 22 November 2014, 19:40:22
    It's been a long time from my USB connection mod, so I think it's fair now to report the usage.

    [attachimg=1]

    The mini USB connection between the two halves is sturdy, and I haven't encountered any issues so far (unlike thin, analog TRRS cables).
    I use mini USB to micro USB connector with teensy, so that I can connect to PC with micro USB cables. Micro USB is not as sturdy as mini USB, but the overall result is acceptable. I think you can also use a mini USB to mini USB L adapter.

    I didn't use a case, however, I think the litster case can be easily modified to accomodate this change.

    So far, I have two ErgoDox with this change, and I am very satisfied with them.

    [attachimg=2]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ml_ on Fri, 28 November 2014, 11:00:59
    Wow PlainBriny, that is awesome. If you don't mind me asking, how did you print the black PCB? This is exactly the design I would like to use for my first ErgoDox prototype. I really like the minimalist design. Only hopefully I will be able to put an XBox controller on there as well. Attached is a sketch of how I'm thinking about setting it up.

    [attach=1]

    PlainBriny did you make any changes to the PCB design in order to mount the USB ports? I'm planning to print some PCBs, but I plan to add in a space for mounting an XBox/Playstation type controller.

    Any tips will be appreciated.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Evo_Spec on Fri, 28 November 2014, 11:26:42
    It's been a long time from my USB connection mod, so I think it's fair now to report the usage.

    (Attachment Link)

    The mini USB connection between the two halves is sturdy, and I haven't encountered any issues so far (unlike thin, analog TRRS cables).
    I use mini USB to micro USB connector with teensy, so that I can connect to PC with micro USB cables. Micro USB is not as sturdy as mini USB, but the overall result is acceptable. I think you can also use a mini USB to mini USB L adapter.

    I didn't use a case, however, I think the litster case can be easily modified to accomodate this change.

    So far, I have two ErgoDox with this change, and I am very satisfied with them.

    (Attachment Link)

    Wow, this board is beautiful!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 28 November 2014, 17:06:46
    Wow PlainBriny, that is awesome. If you don't mind me asking, how did you print the black PCB? This is exactly the design I would like to use for my first ErgoDox prototype. I really like the minimalist design. Only hopefully I will be able to put an XBox controller on there as well. Attached is a sketch of how I'm thinking about setting it up.

    (Attachment Link)

    PlainBriny did you make any changes to the PCB design in order to mount the USB ports? I'm planning to print some PCBs, but I plan to add in a space for mounting an XBox/Playstation type controller.

    Any tips will be appreciated.

    I ordered PCB from a local PCB workshop, I didn't modify the PCB, just some jump wires (two on each side) to connect I2C lines to the USB port.
    The  controller idea is interesting, I did considered a trackpoint module, since the TMK firmware supports it. However I haven't decided where to put it. Your sketch is nice and looks very useful. But I think you should try some prototypes before printing the PCB, maybe handwire the controller and test various configurations.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ml_ on Fri, 28 November 2014, 21:59:16
    I think you should try some prototypes before printing the PCB, maybe handwire the controller and test various configurations.

    Thanks, that is a great suggestion and very helpful. I found this thumbstick switch costing $4 each at Sparkfunhttps://www.sparkfun.com/products/9032 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9032).

    [attach=1]

    I've created a mockup of the design I'm going to try to implement. Here it is:

    [attach=2]

    The little yellow buttons are planned to be small dome-switch buttons for controlling things like Volume and Brightness.

    PBC-mounted speakers are available at Sparkfun for $2 each, but they are very small, so I might try mounting them in an array of four speakers on each side.

    I ordered PCB from a local PCB workshop

    Wow, your local workshop does some nice craftsmanship. I'm probably going to pick up a pair of PCBs from MechanicalKeyboards.com. They have this one available for $40:

    [attach=3]

    It'll take a while for the parts to ship, but I look forward to putting it all together. Thanks for the tips.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 28 November 2014, 22:12:32
    I've created a mockup of the design I'm going to try to implement. Here it is:

    (Attachment Link)

    The little yellow buttons are planned to be small dome-switch buttons for controlling things like Volume and Brightness.

    This design is nice, but I am not sure whether the current controller (teensy 2.0) will have enough pins for the extra buttons and speakers. But it might be feasible with some tricks, like using I/O expanders or one teensy for each side...

    I ordered PCB from a local PCB workshop

    Wow, your local workshop does some nice craftsmanship. I'm probably going to pick up a pair of PCBs from MechanicalKeyboards.com. They have this one available for $40:

    This batch is better than my previous ordered batch.
    I ordered 10 pcs for under $100, not including shipping, because the workshop is just a few blocks away.
    I got some spares, but I think the shipping cost would be much higher than the PCBs themselves.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ml_ on Sun, 30 November 2014, 01:37:07
    I am not sure whether the current controller (teensy 2.0) will have enough pins for the extra buttons and speakers. But it might be feasible with some tricks, like using I/O expanders or one teensy for each side... This batch is better than my previous ordered batch.
    I ordered 10 pcs for under $100, not including shipping, because the workshop is just a few blocks away.
    I got some spares, but I think the shipping cost would be much higher than the PCBs themselves.

    Ya, your board looks really nice, at least the part of it that is visible in the photo. If you have a photo of one of the boards to share, I'd love to see it. $10 each sounds like a really good deal, definitely better than $40 for two ($20 each). That's cool that the pcb workshop is so close for you. I am planning on building a few prototypes with my brother, starting in February. Until then we'll just be planning and ordering parts and stuff. I heard back from my brother about the pcbs, and he says that it is super easy to make our own pcbs. He says that all we really need is a bunch of cheap chemicals and a Dremel drill press. It doesn't sound easy to me, but I guess we'll find out. The PCB that I really want is the legendary Ergo GP:

    [attach=1]

    The big advantage is that is has a separate board for the thumb buttons. Do you know if there is a way to download the Gerber files for the Ergo GP PCB? That would be awesome. From reading on the forums, it seems that AcidFire made the Ergo GP, and he has not released the Gerber files yet, afaik.

    I think I should be able to customize the PCB using KiCAD. I haven't really tried it out much yet, but with my brother's help, I think we should be able to experiment with making different PCB layouts for the thumbsticks. He said that the thumbsticks should be pretty easy to install, both from a hardware and firmware perspective. I really like the idea of dual teensies (one on each side).

    I spent some more time evaluating the thumbstick placement, and I have come to the conclusion that it will actually probably be easier to reach if it is placed down below the thumb buttons:

    [attach=2]

    You can see the updated layout on the right, and the previous layout on the left.

    [attach=3]

    This layout is basically the same, but with a palm rest added in on top of it, and some spots for dome switches around the thumbstick.

    My inspiration for the thumbstick comes from a (Stack Exchange discussion about Keyboards)http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/2254/what-are-good-keyboards-for-programming (http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/2254/what-are-good-keyboards-for-programming), as well as from comments on the discussion about AcidFire's Axios (Grand Piano) design. On the Stack Exchange discussion, one guy says he likes this oldschool IBM keyboard, because of the little "TrackPoint" joystick, which makes it so that he doesn't have to move his hands from the keyboard to move the cursor.
    [attach=4]

    And apparently, there is a person who actually uses the DataHand (see image below), and he says that his favorite feature is that it has a built-in mouse.
    [attach=5]
    I'm not sure exactly where the mouse is on the DataHand, but apparently it's in there somewhere.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 30 November 2014, 02:29:24
    ml_: off topic, would you mind making quotations with the [quote] tag instead of a red shadow? The quoted text is nearly unreadable:
    (http://i.imgur.com/gnL3vNf.png)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ml_ on Mon, 01 December 2014, 13:36:51
    Quote
    would you mind making quotations with the quote tag instead of a red shadow?

    Thanks for the tip. Now if I could only figure out how to do hyperlinks properly. I'm more used to markdown.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 01 December 2014, 21:43:40
    Of course I have colors turned off so I didn't even get the hints Jacobolus saw...

    Here's my problem: I destroyed my left-side board awhile ago, got one from MK and added SMT diodes, attached the plate (some of you may know about my GB for 1.5mm thick switchplates) and now two keys don't register.

    I desoldered one of them, tested it with a multimeter, and it actuates normally. So I resoldered it, and found it usually doesn't work. But if I test it where it sits with the multimeter it shows there's a solid connection when depressed.

    So based on that, I'm assuming the SMT diode is off kilter. Using a pair of pliers shoved into the holes below the switch, I was able to reach around a press the keys and they actuated normally.

    Here's my question: If I solder through-hole diodes to those two switch positions, will they bypass the somehow-faulty SMDs on the other side? Because I really don't want to desolder all 37 switches and yank the board yet again to fuss with the diodes that, with the plate in place, I can't see for anything.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mickyman on Wed, 03 December 2014, 19:28:33
    I feel pretty stupid asking this, but I'm going to use through-hole diodes on my ErgoDox and I'm wondering which way up I solder them.

    Did I do it right in this picture?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Wed, 03 December 2014, 23:22:10
    I feel pretty stupid asking this, but I'm going to use through-hole diodes on my ErgoDox and I'm wondering which way up I solder them.

    Did I do it right in this picture?

    This is correct.
    The end with a black line should be put in the side with the square.
    But, if you put the diode in the front, you may not be able to use a plate (depending on the thickness of the plate).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Fri, 05 December 2014, 10:40:24
    I feel pretty stupid asking this, but I'm going to use through-hole diodes on my ErgoDox and I'm wondering which way up I solder them.

    Did I do it right in this picture?

    This is correct.
    The end with a black line should be put in the side with the square.
    But, if you put the diode in the front, you may not be able to use a plate (depending on the thickness of the plate).

    Other option is: open up up every switch and put the diodes inside the switch. Recommended if you open up the switches to lube them. Otherwise you can solder the diodes on the underside if you find they interfere with the top plate.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 05 December 2014, 23:35:39
    Other option is: open up up every switch and put the diodes inside the switch.

    Yeah, I did this to my own ergodox, and this may improve switch stability when using PCB mount instead of plate mount.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Sat, 06 December 2014, 20:05:22
    Other option is: open up up every switch and put the diodes inside the switch.

    Yeah, I did this to my own ergodox, and this may improve switch stability when using PCB mount instead of plate mount.

    Yes I can confirm this. What I did is actually purchased switches from Kinesis which have built-in diodes. Only slight drawback with those switches is you need to change a setting in the code and compile the firmware due to the orientation of the diodes.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: byker on Tue, 09 December 2014, 02:25:05
    Saw this today.. Kinda cool! http://axlroach.com/post/104107299783/keyboard-mod (http://axlroach.com/post/104107299783/keyboard-mod)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Evo_Spec on Tue, 09 December 2014, 04:43:45
    Saw this today.. Kinda cool! http://axlroach.com/post/104107299783/keyboard-mod (http://axlroach.com/post/104107299783/keyboard-mod)
    He made a post over here earlier today as well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: donyn on Fri, 12 December 2014, 17:00:41
    At this point how would someone like me purchase an Ergodox? I have no idea where to start in buying one. I am comfortable soldering it together and I could easily do that,
    but I have no idea where to buy the parts/kit? Any help?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: mickyman on Fri, 12 December 2014, 17:29:50
    At this point how would someone like me purchase an Ergodox? I have no idea where to start in buying one. I am comfortable soldering it together and I could easily do that,
    but I have no idea where to buy the parts/kit? Any help?

    You can buy all the parts here apart from the key caps
    http://falbatech.pl/prestashop/index.php
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: worldspawn on Wed, 17 December 2014, 09:14:39
    We need 6 more buyers for the ErgoDOX keycap set with legends over on PMK in the next 5 hours, come on guys and get in on a rare labelled kit: http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/deals/deep-space/
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Streiw on Wed, 17 December 2014, 19:12:49
    We need 6 more buyers for the ErgoDOX keycap set with legends over on PMK in the next 5 hours, come on guys and get in on a rare labelled kit: http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/deals/deep-space/

    Ack.. missed it by 3. I wish SP would just produce the kit(s) that missed the MOQ by less than 10 orders and then sell the extras on their store front.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: worldspawn on Thu, 18 December 2014, 06:29:16
    I was charged for the kit when the sale ended, maybe it went through??
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: JustCallMeCrash on Thu, 18 December 2014, 11:40:33
    I was charged for the kit when the sale ended, maybe it went through??

    Argh!  Crap!  I wish I had seen this yesterday and could have hopped in on it... those are gorgeous caps.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: worldspawn on Fri, 19 December 2014, 08:01:11
    I was charged for the kit when the sale ended, maybe it went through??

    Argh!  Crap!  I wish I had seen this yesterday and could have hopped in on it... those are gorgeous caps.

    PMK is putting some sets into their online store since there was a lot if site issues when the deal ended, so you can still pick one up it seems.
    From Booper:
     I got some updates from Bob at Signature Plastics. He said there were "dozens" of emails about the site not loading and people missing out and here is the conclusion -

    "I just talked with Melissa and she suggested we capture the funds for all the deals that didn't tip so those people don't have to reorder again and pay more freight. The only deals we won't capture funds for are the Polaris Numpad Adder (1 purchased) and the 6U and 7U space bars that only had 1 purchase." -Bob


    An extra 25-50 sets will be made and available on the keyshop for those who could not get in at the last minute!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Data on Fri, 26 December 2014, 18:55:03
    Can I run my Ergodox without the LEDs installed?

    If not, am I limited to LEDs with only 1.8Vf @ 20mA?  I'm not seeing a lot of color options for LEDs with those values.

    I tried searching for this info but apparently I'm awful at it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Fri, 26 December 2014, 20:10:36
    Can I run my Ergodox without the LEDs installed?

    Yes, you can.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Data on Fri, 26 December 2014, 20:24:16
    Can I run my Ergodox without the LEDs installed?

    Yes, you can.

    Thanks.  That's probably what I'll do.

    Any idea about the LED options?  The original parts list just says 3mm T1 LED and links to a red one on DigiKey.  I can get 3mm T1 LEDs in different colors but they don't have the same forward voltage (1.8V).  I'd prefer white or light blue.

    Edit: I went ahead and bought 400pcs from the AliExpress seller from this GB:  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64915.0

    If I can't use them in my 'Dox I can use them in my Octagon (when it ships) and future projects.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 26 December 2014, 23:54:59
    my understanding is you have to consider forward voltage when picking the LED / resistor pair, but for example I've got three different LEDs on my 'dox: Green, then purple, and yellow. Each with a separate resistor so they all work just fine. Same principle on my two phantoms, that had different color LEDs...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Sat, 27 December 2014, 07:19:15
    I - desired LED forward current. Select it at about ⅔ of the maximum sustained forward current but at most 20mA (that is half the maximum ATxmega32u4 IO pin current). (E.g. the maximum forward current is typically 20mA, so we choose 14mA for LED max current.)
    Ud - LED forward voltage. This depends mostly on LED colour. Red/orange/yellow LEDs have it typically at about 2V. Blue/green at about 3V. But it depends on the specific LED. (Let's say you have a yellow LED with forward voltage of 2.1V.)
    Ucc = 5V (the supply voltage)

    The desired resistor:
    R = (Ucc - Ud) / min(I, 20mA)

    E.g. R = (5V - 2.1V) / min(14mA, 20mA) = 2.9V / 14mA = 2.9V / 0.014A ≅ 207Ω
    Select resistor at 207Ω or bigger. The bigger the resistor is the less bright the LED will be. Although, it is better to select the smallest usable resistor and control the brightness using PWM. That consumes less power on average. That gives bigger brightness range to control with PWM. The IO pins used for LEDs support PWM from hardware point of view. If it is not supported in the firmware yet then ask for the support so that you can control LED brightness from firmware.

    Edit1: fix wrong numbers in the example.
    Edit2: In strikethrough/italics. What a mess. Sorry.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Mon, 12 January 2015, 09:40:43
    This may not be the most appropriate place to ask about this, and if not I apologize in advance. 
    I was a participant in the most recent drop for the ErgoDox and am hopefully due to get my kit sometime next month.  I ordered the Cherry MX Clears and I have several questions:



    Thanks in advance!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wuqe on Tue, 13 January 2015, 15:15:24
    No lube, nor stickers, for me. That said, I've done spring mods, and with the MassDrop case, you can open the switches without desoldering to get at their guts. I think that means you can sticker, and you can certainly lube.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Wed, 14 January 2015, 07:59:49
    No lube, nor stickers, for me. That said, I've done spring mods, and with the MassDrop case, you can open the switches without desoldering to get at their guts. I think that means you can sticker, and you can certainly lube.

    Thanks for the reply!  Just curious, which springs / switches did you go with?

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wuqe on Wed, 14 January 2015, 17:06:30
    55g springs on my clears, to make it lighter on my hands. They're sweet!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rethus on Tue, 20 January 2015, 08:01:51
    Anybody knows how i can got the Windows-Key (Super_L ; 0xffeb, Keycode 133) to work with ergodox firmware?
    Need it as metakey in linux.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 21 January 2015, 13:07:06
    Anybody knows how i can got the Windows-Key (Super_L ; 0xffeb, Keycode 133) to work with ergodox firmware?
    Need it as metakey in linux.
    Do you mean the massdrop configurator? Been a little while since I looked at it but there's a bunch of buttons you could make the button send ... do you know the scancode of the fabled meta key?

    You could also look into adjusting one of the TMK branches, such as CubUniac's, to send the key signal you need. You can also do fancy stuff like make the LEDs show layer state instead of meaningless things like scroll_lock or Num_Lock
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Wed, 21 January 2015, 17:23:55
    It's called KEY_LeftGUI, at least in the MD's webapp. It just works.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Data on Tue, 27 January 2015, 16:23:48
    I think I asked a similar question in another thread but I can't find the post.  Does the Windows Context Menu key have an equivalent option in the Massdrop Configurator?  I've tried both KEY_RightGUI AND KEY_Menu, but neither invokes the context menu.  It's the only thing not working on my 'Dox.  Glad it's something so small, but it's still annoying.  :P
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Tue, 27 January 2015, 16:40:16
    It's KEY_Application AFAIK.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Data on Tue, 27 January 2015, 20:26:53
    I'll try it, thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Arvid on Wed, 28 January 2015, 06:49:23
    How long did it take for you guys to get used to the Ergodox?
    Been using mine for a couple of days and it feels too big, right now I am only using half of the thumb buttons and only five of the columns on each side.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Wed, 28 January 2015, 08:48:27
    I don't use the outer thumb keys at all. Other than that, I get used to new layouts in a couple of days, a week at most; the only pain was relearning shortcuts, when I switched to a symmetrical layout for the first time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 28 January 2015, 13:03:29
    How long did it take for you guys to get used to the Ergodox?

    A week, maybe? Biggest trouble I had were the Z/X (;/q in dvorak) because my left pinkie had troubles remembering not to stagger to reach ... second biggest was Q/J/K (X/C/V in qwerty) because you use different fingers in addition to reaching straight down.

    The Thumb buttons are a point of contention; I find them okay but the outer, upper two are awkward so you just remap things that you only need very rarely up there.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Wed, 28 January 2015, 13:35:48
    The Thumb buttons are a point of contention; I find them okay but the outer, upper two are awkward so you just remap things that you only need very rarely up there.
    Use tall keycaps for the outer/upper thumb cluster keys. It will help a bit.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: AbuBakr on Fri, 30 January 2015, 11:16:38
    Any idea when the next drop's gonna be?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: danielucf on Fri, 30 January 2015, 14:25:37
    Just built my 4th or 5th ErgoDox for someone else and am not getting any functionality out of the keyboard (hitting keys does not yield any input)

    Potentially helpful information:
    I used the through hole diodes how I normally do, soldered them onto the bottom of the PCB like I have seen in a lot of Korean assembled keyboards where they snip off of the top part from the top of the PCB.
    Black line side of the diode aligned with the square pad.
    I get an Auto Mode Disabled error with the firmware.eep in automatic. Maybe this is the culprit and it isn't copying the firmware correctly?
    The teensy LED no longer lights up at all no matter what when plugging it in or pushing the button.
    I might have sent the hex file over before the .eep on accident the first time I was trying to flash the firmware.

    Edit - I tried to continuity test my diodes and they don't work. Even when not soldered on the board. Is it possible they are bad or more likely I'm doing my continuity test wrong?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wuqe on Mon, 02 February 2015, 18:09:02
    Backwards diodes? They only pass current one way, so try testing them both ways for continuity.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Mon, 02 February 2015, 23:17:13
    Do you have +5v between the power and ground on the teensy?
    Is the teensy recognized by your computer?
    Do you get a successful download to the teensy?
    Pictures? (Of teensy and switch/diode soldering) (In-focus,
    close-up so that we might get an idea of what's going on)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Fri, 06 February 2015, 11:10:54
    How long did it take for you guys to get used to the Ergodox?
    Over a week but I was learning colmak at the same time.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: goflo on Fri, 06 February 2015, 12:46:53
    Anyone experiencing problem with ergodox and x99 mainboards?
    Tested my ergodox on two mobos and both got problems starting the OS up with a ergodox attached.

    Used firmware is the benblazak ergodox partial rewrite.
    With my old x58 system everything was working fine.

    Flo
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jeroentbt on Fri, 06 February 2015, 18:39:07
    Finally getting around to building my Ergodox.

    Is there a reason why most DIY keyboards use a mini USB socket in stead of micro USB?
    I have a lot more micro cables than I do have mini ones.
    Something like this https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12035) (USB mico breakout board) might come in handy.

    Or am I missing something obvious?

    Cheers,
    Jeroen
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Sat, 07 February 2015, 00:22:34
    Is there a reason why most DIY keyboards use a mini USB socket in stead of micro USB?

    For one thing, mini USB is easier to solder by hand.
    However, you can use mini-to-micro adapter, this also eliminates the step to sacrifice a mini-USB cable as instructed by the Massdrop build guide.

    [attachimg=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Usarise on Mon, 09 February 2015, 18:28:20
    Speaking of the USB:
    What's the easiest way to break the casing off the one to sacrifice?  I've got my one side without the top cause I left it on thinking it wasn't too important and now I am unsure how to break the plastic off cleanly.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Thu, 12 February 2015, 21:33:26
    I just wanted to see what happened to the backlit version of the ergodox?

    is it done?  has anyone manufactured?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jalli on Sun, 15 February 2015, 10:45:09
    I got lazy and had some personal things to work through, the prototypes are sitting on my desk and I hope to get something done this spring.

    I just wanted to see what happened to the backlit version of the ergodox?

    is it done?  has anyone manufactured?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tbc on Sun, 15 February 2015, 14:42:25
    I got lazy and had some personal things to work through, the prototypes are sitting on my desk and I hope to get something done this spring.

    I just wanted to see what happened to the backlit version of the ergodox?

    is it done?  has anyone manufactured?

    cool!

    not trying to rush anyone.  just curious.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: okaydoke on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:28:48
    Hi All,

    I wanted to build my keyboard for over three years now, I only wish I could find this site earlier.
    I want to build a ergodox and downloaded the PCB from ergodox.org. The file I've got after upzip is ErgoDOX20130208.zipfile.
    could anyone teach me what kind of program to open this file?

    Thank you all very much
    Okaydoke
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Usarise on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:10:43
    Hi All,

    I wanted to build my keyboard for over three years now, I only wish I could find this site earlier.
    I want to build a ergodox and downloaded the PCB from ergodox.org. The file I've got after upzip is ErgoDOX20130208.zipfile.
    could anyone teach me what kind of program to open this file?

    Thank you all very much
    Okaydoke

    This is just my understanding, but you can unzip the .zipfile to see all of the individual components of the design.  From there I'd wager you need some type of Gerber file viewer.  (Can probably just find one you like on google)

    I can't say building your own like that would be very easy though.  Have you considered buying a PCB from FalbaTeach, MechanicalKeyboards, or waiting for the next Massdrop?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Mon, 16 February 2015, 19:54:38
    I finished up my ergodox build this weekend but I seem to be having trouble with the LEDs.  Only one of the LEDs seems to work at all (the top one), and only briefly when the usb plug is first plugged in.  It lights the LED, then takes it very bright, and then off.  Neither of the other two LEDs ever light, even when caps lock is on.  I am using the stock ergodox firmware, downloaded from the massdrop configurator.  It's possible that the second and third LEDs were soldered in backwards by mistake, though I was careful to make sure the long lead went towards the square pad.  It's also possible these LEDs were DOA, as these came from a box of spares since my ergodox kit only included one led (the one that happens to work, sort of).  But is this "normal" behavior for the top LED?  I'd think if I had it backwards it wouldn't light at all?

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Tue, 17 February 2015, 03:03:20
    At least some LEDs do not have ESD protection. One must be careful not to be charged when handling such LEDs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: okaydoke on Sat, 21 February 2015, 03:03:55
    This is just my understanding, but you can unzip the .zipfile to see all of the individual components of the design.  From there I'd wager you need some type of Gerber file viewer.  (Can probably just find one you like on google)

    I can't say building your own like that would be very easy though.  Have you considered buying a PCB from FalbaTeach, MechanicalKeyboards, or waiting for the next Massdrop?

    Thanks Usarise for your reply and advise, I'm not going to make the PCB myself but to order a tiny amount. I've try few Gerber software online or install version and still having error while open the zip file.
    Hope if anyone have open the file successfully could let me know which software they were using.

    Thank you very much
    Okaydoke
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: tlem on Sun, 22 February 2015, 09:41:38
    Thanks Usarise for your reply and advise, I'm not going to make the PCB myself but to order a tiny amount. I've try few Gerber software online or install version and still having error while open the zip file.
    Hope if anyone have open the file successfully could let me know which software they were using.

    Use your zip program to open the .zipfile  :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Tracer on Sun, 22 February 2015, 20:54:44
    I can't seem to find the answer to this anywhere

    I want to mount the LEDs at the top location not the switch location.

    The problem is, the top location doesn't indicate the direction of the LED (square pad) like the switch location does. Can someone tell me which direction it's supposed to be?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 23 February 2015, 06:13:44
    The problem is, the top location doesn't indicate the direction of the LED (square pad) like the switch location does. Can someone tell me which direction it's supposed to be?
    Just follow the traces on the board. The LEDs in top location need to point the same direction relative to the pins they connect to as LEDs next to the switches would.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Tue, 24 February 2015, 14:36:31
    I can't seem to find the answer to this anywhere

    I want to mount the LEDs at the top location not the switch location.

    The problem is, the top location doesn't indicate the direction of the LED (square pad) like the switch location does. Can someone tell me which direction it's supposed to be?

    When you say top location, do you mean where the 220 ohm resistors are also mounted on the right hand PCB?  Or is there another place?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Mr Alfabet on Tue, 03 March 2015, 11:18:28
    I can't seem to find the answer to this anywhere

    I want to mount the LEDs at the top location not the switch location.

    The problem is, the top location doesn't indicate the direction of the LED (square pad) like the switch location does. Can someone tell me which direction it's supposed to be?

    The top locations aren't actually for the leds, they're for the resistors that go with the leds. The only places you can connect the leds is at the switches.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: eviltobz on Tue, 03 March 2015, 12:02:01
    The top locations aren't actually for the leds, they're for the resistors that go with the leds. The only places you can connect the leds is at the switches.
    well, that was the general intention with the design, but there are people who've swapped the led & resistor locations around quite successfully. it doesn't look as neat as you might hope as the holes aren't positioned ideally for the leds meaning that you have to bend the legs around a bit, and 2 of them are next to each other with the 3rd some way off, but you can do it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Mr Alfabet on Tue, 03 March 2015, 12:10:39
    The top locations aren't actually for the leds, they're for the resistors that go with the leds. The only places you can connect the leds is at the switches.
    well, that was the general intention with the design, but there are people who've swapped the led & resistor locations around quite successfully. it doesn't look as neat as you might hope as the holes aren't positioned ideally for the leds meaning that you have to bend the legs around a bit, and 2 of them are next to each other with the 3rd some way off, but you can do it.
    Very true, but given the fact that this guy is doubting the way he should mount the leds, I doubt he's very tech-savvy when it comes to modding the pcb.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: okaydoke on Wed, 04 March 2015, 23:34:46
    Hi, I've just got my ErgoDox PCB (original design) and noticed only few keys could mount LED. I wonder are there any PCB out there could have the blacklit version?
    Thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TobiasFB on Tue, 10 March 2015, 14:44:46
    I also want to know if there is a pcb with backlight support. I really want one but i want backlight too :P
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 10 March 2015, 15:17:06
    Hi, I've just got my ErgoDox PCB (original design) and noticed only few keys could mount LED. I wonder are there any PCB out there could have the blacklit version?
    I also want to know if there is a pcb with backlight support. I really want one but i want backlight too :P
    Currently there is not.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TobiasFB on Tue, 10 March 2015, 16:25:07
    Would it be difficult to build an ergodox wothout a pcb?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 10 March 2015, 16:30:45
    Would it be difficult to build an ergodox wothout a pcb?
    As in, make a plate, and hand wire all the switches? No more or less difficult than any other keyboard layout. I’d maybe recommend just using a ribbon cable from one half to the other instead of the I/O expander, if everything is being hand wired.

    You need to figure out a way to get a plate cut. I’d recommend a metal (18 ga steel) plate, to ensure that the switches clip in properly. There are probably some metal shops near you that could do it for $100–200.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TobiasFB on Tue, 10 March 2015, 16:49:09
    Yeah that was what i though. I can get a friend to machine the plates for free(just the cost of material).
    What does the i/o expander do?
    Does it just make it so i can use a jack cable inbetween?
    And what programming tool should i use for this? I do not have any programing experience just to make that clear but im willing to learn.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Wed, 11 March 2015, 22:20:27
    Hey guys, I found out the ergodox existed last week and I've been obsessed!

    I couldn't wait for the GB so I ordered all the parts and used my amateur skills to build one. I'm actually using it right now. (I need keycaps with letters)

    Anyway, things are working great except one key. Whenever I use the outer most key, it reports two characters. Itself and whatever assigned to the main thumb.

    [attachimg=1]

    Obviously I have a short, but I can't figure out where. Before I take off both of those keys, is it possible it could be someplace else? 

    Again, all other keys work fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 11 March 2015, 23:01:26
    Do you have a multimeter you can use to probe the traces?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Thu, 12 March 2015, 09:19:42
    Sorry, I don't.  If I did have one what pins are you thinking I should check? 

    I'm using the white painted board but I can follow the leads by eye. Obviously I don't see anything wrong yet so I'm hoping for guidance on where they cross before I move on.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Thu, 12 March 2015, 09:28:06
    Sorry, I don't.  If I did have one what pins are you thinking I should check? 

    I'm using the white painted board but I can follow the leads by eye. Obviously I don't see anything wrong yet so I'm hoping for guidance on where they cross before I move on.

    Can you post hi res photos of the solder joints of the particular switches and of the teensy? Most likely there is a short in one of those two areas. Unless the pcb has a defect which I doubt, but even that could be corrected if you find it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Thu, 12 March 2015, 09:56:18
    Gotta post my crimes, huh?

    [attach=3]
    [attach=2]
    [attach=1]


    i screwed up the USB connection so i bypassed it until the part arrives.  I suspect my bad soldering job around teensy might be the problem but its weird that only one key is effected.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Thu, 12 March 2015, 15:09:06
    Ugh!  I took the switches off and cleaned the board around both sides but I'm still getting a repeat between the two buttons only on one of them. 

    I may have to buy a multimeter but I'm still unclear on what leads could be causing this problem.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Thu, 12 March 2015, 15:36:36
    Ugh!  I took the switches off and cleaned the board around both sides but I'm still getting a repeat between the two buttons only on one of them. 

    I may have to buy a multimeter but I'm still unclear on what leads could be causing this problem.

    It's most likely a diode.  I'd start with the two diodes on the keys that are double tapping.  That being said, there look to be some near bridges on the Teensy, if you have any way to test continuity that would be good to rule out as well (particularly b4 and d7)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Thu, 12 March 2015, 15:46:45
    Diode!  I pulled it off and put a new one on, now it works!

    Thanks a lot!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Sat, 14 March 2015, 18:38:00
    I'm planning to laser cut an acrylic case for the Ergodox. Curious what others have done, what tips you might have, etc. I found the case design here:

    https://github.com/bishboria/ErgoDox/tree/master/ErgoDox%20Acrylic%20Case/ErgoDOX%20Acrylic%20Case%20-%20Designed%20by%20Litster

    Have there been any revisions to this design? Are there any modifications people have made? Anyone create a space inside the Wrist Rest to put more electronics into?

    How thick are the acrylic sheets used? 3mm?

    Has anyone put together an acrylic case, but with a metal switch plate to allow the use of plate-mount switches?

    Thanks for any and all help.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Sat, 14 March 2015, 20:52:41
    I'm planning to laser cut an acrylic case for the Ergodox. Curious what others have done, what tips you might have, etc. I found the case design here:

    https://github.com/bishboria/ErgoDox/tree/master/ErgoDox%20Acrylic%20Case/ErgoDOX%20Acrylic%20Case%20-%20Designed%20by%20Litster

    Have there been any revisions to this design? Are there any modifications people have made? Anyone create a space inside the Wrist Rest to put more electronics into?

    How thick are the acrylic sheets used? 3mm?

    Has anyone put together an acrylic case, but with a metal switch plate to allow the use of plate-mount switches?

    Thanks for any and all help.


    I'm new to the site as well, but I spent a few days reading all 120 pages and I think I can answer some of these questions.

    I'm typing on a full hand right now and I can say for sure if you cut 2 layers there's room inside for pretty much anything. This hasn't been done yet because no one has found much to add.  Jalli has been working on a backlit version of the dox and when that's done we may see a need.

    When it comes to modding there have been a few projects, basically focusing on tenting (giving angle to) the board and cutting /reattaching the thumb section.  Both of these types of mods are about comfort.

    Adding extra buttons and mouse support has also been done but this is pretty rare too.

    I believe the acrylic case allows for plate mounting but I'm not entirely sure of that because I used board mounting. I did it though an acrylic plate, is that what plate mounting means?

    I did see some ergodox's that use a mix of metal and acrylic just for aesthetic reasons.

    All of these different kind of mods are in this thread with pictures.  This means you can go through the pages without having to read everything or go to link throughs, you'll see the pics and know when to stop and investigate.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Sun, 15 March 2015, 02:52:05
    Thanks. The issue with plate-mounted switches is they assume a 1.5mm plate thickness, so the 3mm acrylic plate is too thick to allow the clips to engage on the bottom of the plate. I saw someone who was hand-wiring a different keyboard use glue to hold the switches in place because of this issue (something I don't want to do). If the switch is not secure in the plate, then it should be secure on the PCB, although I have no idea what types of switches people have been using. For example, does Massdrop ship PCB-mount switches since they use acrylic plates? Their description (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/ergodox) actually says the keys mount to the plate instead of directly to the PCB, but if you look at the picture of the switches in their instructions (https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php) they appear to be PCB-mount switches (note the two extra plastic prongs underneath the switches). I am assume the Massdrop kits use the plate for extra stability, but that the real connection is to the PCB. Note that the ErgoDox PCB has two non-conductive holes in each switch grouping – those are for the PCB-mount prongs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kejadlen on Sun, 15 March 2015, 09:57:01
    That's correct. For the Massdrop version, the switches on the Ergodox are PCB-mounted, and the plate is used mainly as a spacer so that the acrylic case is layered nicely. I can't speak for how other cases work, though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Sun, 15 March 2015, 10:31:54
    I swear this is a coincidence. I realized the similarity this morning.

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: boingolover on Tue, 17 March 2015, 13:50:08
    That's correct. For the Massdrop version, the switches on the Ergodox are PCB-mounted, and the plate is used mainly as a spacer so that the acrylic case is layered nicely. I can't speak for how other cases work, though.

    On my massdrop kit the switches they shipped are plate mount, and even though they don't actually clip in like they would on a thinner metal plate they do hold quite tight just with friction.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: gasht on Fri, 20 March 2015, 11:08:41
    Hello guys, I have a question, which is probably already been asked, because it seems like a pretty big issue, but I cant find an answer..
    How to get media keys to work? Mine does not send scan codes(I check with xev).
    I compiled benblazak/ergodox-firmware from source to probably get more newer version, as it is mentioned in the git page, that atleast some media keys should work(vol_up, vol_down etc).
    But so far only one media key is working - it is named Key_application in MD configurator(but for some reason it is recognized in xev as Menu key, and work as such)

    Should I maybe not use MD configurator? Or firmware is simply not ready? Should I maybe use TMK port for media keys to work? 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: shaymdev on Fri, 20 March 2015, 11:40:41
    What does the i/o expander do?
    Does it just make it so i can use a jack cable inbetween?

    Yeah the io expander makes it so that you only need a trrs cable between the halves. I've been considering building my own without a pcb. I'd probably skip the io expander and possibly use another type of cable (rather than the suggested ribbon cable) like an hdmi cable or something with enough wires in it (rows+columns). I'm still looking for a good plate option to save a few bucks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bendon on Sun, 22 March 2015, 22:48:50
    Finished soldering key switches to partial build from Falbatech (czarek) yesterday. 

    (http://i.imgur.com/0joYyoF.jpg)

    Acryllic case and blue cherry mx switches from Mechanical Keyboards site, the caps of course sourced from signature plastics.

    Everything works except for one damn key (top row, key 7, left hand SW5:7) which is probably from my soldering skills.  Desoldered switch, removed, and replaced with another (a pain as I used PCB mount switches as they were only ones MK.com had) but still a no go so I just programmed the layout with no use of that key.  Don't know if I'll ever be comfortable using it as a daily, but we'll see...
     
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Tue, 24 March 2015, 09:11:56
    Finished soldering key switches to partial build from Falbatech (czarek) yesterday. 

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/0joYyoF.jpg)


    Acryllic case and blue cherry mx switches from Mechanical Keyboards site, the caps of course sourced from signature plastics.

    Everything works except for one damn key (top row, key 7, left hand SW5:7) which is probably from my soldering skills.  Desoldered switch, removed, and replaced with another (a pain as I used PCB mount switches as they were only ones MK.com had) but still a no go so I just programmed the layout with no use of that key.  Don't know if I'll ever be comfortable using it as a daily, but we'll see...
     


    Your problem with that key is most likely the diode.  You'll want to check that it's pointed the correct direction and that the contacts are clean.

    I used a solder glue for mine so I had a lot of failures due to bad connection or short at first.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bendon on Tue, 24 March 2015, 10:24:11
    I was hoping that wasn't the problem.  Falbatech did all of the SMD soldering so I fear tampering with any of that even though I do see the contact on the left side of the diode for that switch does look exposed compared to other diodes on both boards.  I'll try looking into it when get home tonight.  Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bendon on Tue, 24 March 2015, 18:38:08

    Your problem with that key is most likely the diode.  You'll want to check that it's pointed the correct direction and that the contacts are clean.

    I used a solder glue for mine so I had a lot of failures due to bad connection or short at first.
    Turns out that's exactly what it was.  The left side contact wasn't being made.  I soldered a small piece of wire onto that spot and now I'm back in the game ;D.  Thanks, dude :thumb:.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 26 March 2015, 08:20:56
    Tested.com told in their latest podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS03oRfNxj0&t=1h17m20s) that they are going to make a video building an ErgoDox. It is probably going to be from Massdrop.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: rmw2013 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 21:31:13
    just finished my ergodox with some DSA from pmk. I wanted it to look like some thing from Maliwan from borderlands 2
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Sat, 28 March 2015, 15:36:33
    My new massdrop keycaps just arrived, I thought you guys might like the die-cut stickers I added to the sides.

    [attach=1]

    I'm able to do the opposite as well and make masks that I can paint whatever I want onto them.

    Took a bunch of pics for an upcoming blog post about the entire adventure, I'll link over to that when it's done if you guys want... is that a thing allowed in the rules?

    I hope so cus here it is. http://wackomedia.com/ergodox-custom-built-keyboard/ (http://wackomedia.com/ergodox-custom-built-keyboard/)  This has a bunch of info you guys already know, but also has some nice pics I think you guys will like.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: DSlayerZX on Mon, 30 March 2015, 20:42:34
    It looks mass drop is going to release their revised version of Ergodox "soon"

    it comes with a display so we can know exactly what is locked and what layer we are using...

    though no mention if they have adjusted/tweaked the key layout.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 30 March 2015, 23:23:44
    wackotti– Nice job on the build. Thanks for sharing the pictures. They reminded me of the excitement I had when I assembled mine on the first Massdrop run. It's good to have you on GH.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: DSlayerZX on Tue, 31 March 2015, 02:54:44
    hmm.. one of the option from MD is clear DCS keys....

    just curious... can anyone provide some user feed back regarding to clear key caps?

    like..... are they ok in general, or just looks disgusting after a short while.  :eek:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Tue, 31 March 2015, 03:02:12
    It looks mass drop is going to release their revised version of Ergodox "soon"
    it comes with a display so we can know exactly what is locked and what layer we are using...

    Do you have some pictures of the Massdrop's Ergodox with an LCD?
    I have my own version of Ergodox (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.0) with an LCD. And I like the LCD there.
    I'm adding also some LEDs and a photo sensor just now.
    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: DSlayerZX on Tue, 31 March 2015, 03:15:41
    hopefully this works, image straight out of mass drop

    (https://massdrop.imgix.net/resizer/product-images/MD-6758_20150330194040_fd8df61dd5cfa68e.jpg?fm=jpg&q=70)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TobiasFB on Tue, 31 March 2015, 03:48:35
    What does the lcd display? Temps? Clock? Layer?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Tue, 31 March 2015, 06:53:01
    In my case it is a layer name and short help when doing kinesis like on the fly remap/macro.
    I do not know about the massdrop version but both layer name and led status look like a good thing to have there.
    Keyboard controller temperature and clock can be put there but it looks to me like a waste of space.

    If massdrop firmware continues to be open then you can put there whatever you like :)

    Edit: davkol posted some links to the new massdrop Ergodox: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70486.0
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Batty on Tue, 28 April 2015, 07:47:05
    Can anyone point me towards a guide for directly soldering the TRRS cable to the PCBs?  After several days of having to unplug/replug my ergodox in to get it working it appears to be unresponsive today.  I'm going to reflow the solder joints to the USB and TRRS connectors tonight, but I would like to try a direct connection in case the connectors are dead...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 28 April 2015, 18:52:43
    Can anyone point me towards a guide for directly soldering the TRRS cable to the PCBs?  After several days of having to unplug/replug my ergodox in to get it working it appears to be unresponsive today.  I'm going to reflow the solder joints to the USB and TRRS connectors tonight, but I would like to try a direct connection in case the connectors are dead...

    I think the problem is more likely caused by the cable and not the connector.
    In my opinion, most TRRS cables are just too thin and fragile.
    For my first ergodox using TRRS, I have tried several TRRS cables, and they all ended up causing problems.
    I finally ordered a custom TRRS cable, using cable for speakers and it worked well.
    Title: ErgoDox Switch PCB connections
    Post by: trauring on Wed, 29 April 2015, 04:51:59
    I'm look at holes in the ErgoDox PCB and I had some questions. Is there a good explanation of the layout of the PCB somewhere?

    In particular, I'm looking at the four holes at the bottom of each switch. I know the two at the bottom connected to surface mount pads are for the diodes (allowing either through-hole or surface mounting). My question is if the two holes right above those are also connected to the ones below, to allow you to place the diodes in the switch. It appears that is the case, from my untrained eye looking at the PCB, but I'm not sure which is why I'm asking. That's a pretty neat feature actually, since I can't use LEDs on the ErgoDox, but I can place the diodes in the switch and keep them out of the way. Is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that (other than the fact I need to open up each switch to insert the diodes)?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sordna on Wed, 29 April 2015, 12:15:36
    I'm look at holes in the ErgoDox PCB and I had some questions. Is there a good explanation of the layout of the PCB somewhere?

    In particular, I'm looking at the four holes at the bottom of each switch. I know the two at the bottom connected to surface mount pads are for the diodes (allowing either through-hole or surface mounting). My question is if the two holes right above those are also connected to the ones below, to allow you to place the diodes in the switch. It appears that is the case, from my untrained eye looking at the PCB, but I'm not sure which is why I'm asking. That's a pretty neat feature actually, since I can't use LEDs on the ErgoDox, but I can place the diodes in the switch and keep them out of the way. Is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that (other than the fact I need to open up each switch to insert the diodes)?

    I can confirm you can use through hole diodes this way. I bought switches with built in diodes and they work perfectly and provide a sturdier attachment to the PCB too!
    The only downside for me was that I had to recompile the firmware with a different setting due to the diode orientation being not what was expected on one half of the keyboard. But you can avoid this issue if you actually open up the switches and orienting the diodes yourself.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Wed, 29 April 2015, 12:17:33
    Interesting. I hadn't thought about that, although it makes sense since the two halves are just flipped versions of each other.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard. (laser-cutting help)
    Post by: trauring on Wed, 13 May 2015, 07:30:37
    If I'm going to laser-cut Litster's layered case, how many mm should each layer be? 3mm? Also, how big are the screw holes? Thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Usarise on Fri, 15 May 2015, 13:13:39
    So I've been having some connectivity issues with my 'dox lately.  I think the USB port is loose.  I'm not really crazy about resoldering it as the wires around it are messed up enough (plus if I have to cut them any more I'll need to kill another cable)  Any suggestions that don't involve resoldering the whole port on and off again?  I was thinking hot glue but that seemed a bit messy and not exactly aesthetically pleasing.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 18 May 2015, 17:22:54
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Fri, 29 May 2015, 14:47:42
    Just a quick question from someone who has never built a custom keyboard...

    I may try to design my own variation of Ergodox, but while I'm confident I can design a PCB and get it done, I'm not so sure about the plate. So...

    For a PCB-soldered keyboard, does the plate make a lot of difference, or can you design a keyboard without one?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Fri, 29 May 2015, 15:16:56
    I'm using my ErgoDox without any plate. It's perfectly fine.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sat, 30 May 2015, 02:43:36
    There is a small difference in feel between keyboards that have plate-mounted and PCB-mounted switches but in my opinion that has mostly to do with how the PCB is supported in the case: some keyboards with PCB-mounted keyboards have some flex and others are more rigid. The switches need to have the stabilising pins in holes on the PCB to sit properly. If you use in-switch jumpers or diodes then the switches will be really sturdy on the PCB.
    If you want stabilisers then they have to be PCB-mounted Cherry stabilisers and you must make space for the housings and the metal bars on the PCB.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Sat, 30 May 2015, 05:15:59
    Many thanks to both of you.

    Now, I just have to find some time, and a decent and cheap PCB maker (I'm too old to use the old methods and build those at home) and I'm set.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Tue, 02 June 2015, 10:26:18
    Okay, so I've soldered the right hand ErgoDox. Before starting on the left hand I thought I'd test out the right hand. I loaded the firmware on the teensy, and - nothing. The keys don't do anything. Where do I start troubleshooting?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Tue, 02 June 2015, 20:09:07
    Perhaps the firmware is waiting for the left hand before continuing?

    You could wire up the I/O expander and connector, etc, but not the
    switch matrix on the left hand and that wouldn't take too long.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Wed, 03 June 2015, 07:13:41
    Perhaps the firmware is waiting for the left hand before continuing?

    You could wire up the I/O expander and connector, etc, but not the
    switch matrix on the left hand and that wouldn't take too long.

    Thanks. I actually had already soldered up the left side (not including the switches), so I hooked it up and it worked. I thought I remembered reading at some point that the right hand could work without the left hand, so I didn't think about plugging it in. The funny thing was when I did plug it in I got the following message:

    [attachimg=1]

    How exactly am I supposed to press a key on the left side of the keyboard? :-) I just hit a bunch of keys on the right side until it gave up and asked me to identify the keyboard from a list (ANSI, ISO, etc.).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zephyrean on Sun, 07 June 2015, 00:49:55
    I just assembled my ergodox (from massdrop, the non-infinity version) following the massdrop instructions, but it doesn't work. Massdrop instructions are here: https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/assembly.php

    Here's what happens:
    --USB plugged in, red LEDs light up
    --Teensy plugged in, detected by Teensy app, I can flash things
    --Teensy plugged in and blink .hex file loaded -> works and is detected by computer, Windows displays "Installing Teensyduino RawHID Device" window

    But when I load the keyboard .hex file and plug in the keyboard, the keys don't register when I press them and Windows displays "USB Device Not Recognized." I tried flashing on a Mac and on a different Windows 8 PC, but still no luck. Anyone have any idea what's wrong? Any help would be appreciated :) I've posted this on Reddit, this forum, other forums, nobody has any idea :'(

    Also, I've triple-checked all my soldering with a multimeter...all the diodes are good and are on in the right direction (side with the line oriented towards the square hole, right?). The only strange thing is that on 6-7 keys when I test the square/round holes next to the diodes I get a reading of 0V either way, but I do get a positive reading when I test the diode connections themselves.

    Can post pics if that would help.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Sun, 07 June 2015, 10:12:00
    Did you have the left side connected?

    Post in-focus, well lit pics of your solder joints
    and components or we may not have any
    chance of helping you.

    Go over all your solder joints and re-flow them
    to be certain that you don't have weird, cold joint
     problems.

    Check continuity across your TRRS cable and
    connectors. Check for power on the IOExpander
    chip. Check your voltage stabilizer caps for voltage
    and proper connections...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zephyrean on Sun, 07 June 2015, 13:10:40
    Check continuity across your TRRS cable and
    connectors. Check for power on the IOExpander
    chip. Check your voltage stabilizer caps for voltage
    and proper connections...
    How do I do this?

    Yeah, I had the left side connected. I'll post some pics after I fix some of the soldering (definitely too much solder some places).
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Sun, 07 June 2015, 15:54:09
    Check continuity across your TRRS cable and
    connectors. Check for power on the IOExpander
    chip. Check your voltage stabilizer caps for voltage
    and proper connections...
    How do I do this?
    https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-use-a-multimeter
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: zephyrean on Tue, 16 June 2015, 12:51:01
    Here are some pics of my soldering...first soldering project with circuits, so it's not that good :'(
    1. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihbg42m6ylzejs6/IMG_20150616_104434.jpg?dl=0
    I removed the I/O expander, thought it might not be on right. You can see in the bottom right some of the metal circles have been burned off...is this a problem?
    2. https://www.dropbox.com/s/cvylgkre1xvp2l7/IMG_20150616_104541.jpg?dl=0
    The pads burned off on 2 of the keys, but someone said here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.2010 you could just bridge the pads and the holes next to them, so I did that. Apparently it worked, but haven't tested yet.
    3. https://www.dropbox.com/s/fh83oryksn7oi6o/IMG_20150616_104601.jpg?dl=0
    Solder for Teensy. When I flash firmware, am I supposed to plug directly into Teensy or into the USB that plugs into Teensy? The computer recognizes the Teensy when I plug it directly in, but I get the USB not recognized when I plug the keyboard to the computer.
    4. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nuli12st2e6rqpn/IMG_20150616_104611.jpg?dl=0
    Solder for USB connection.
    5. https://www.dropbox.com/s/oujv8ayoca4xnfs/IMG_20150616_104622.jpg?dl=0
    Solder for TRRS connector.
    6. https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfmcitj6ewirqhu/IMG_20150616_104727.jpg?dl=0
    Full right hand side board. Will the keys work if I plug in just the right side? I want to test one side since I don't have the I/O expander in yet.
    7. https://www.dropbox.com/s/lak59ffon06qrbe/IMG_20150616_104826.jpg?dl=0
    Most of my keys look like this (aren't as bad as in 2).
    8. https://www.dropbox.com/s/gb79gsv6xtjjidf/IMG_20150616_110032.jpg?dl=0
    Full left hand side.
    It's not letting me attach my pics, so I'm just going to insert dropbox links. Sorry about that.
    Thanks for all the help, everyone! :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: OldDataHands on Fri, 19 June 2015, 20:32:24
    You have a whole lot of cold joints, which will cause you problems.
    You need to ensure that:
    1) You have enough flux in play
    2) You have your iron hot enough, but not too hot
    3) You get both the pin and the pad hot enough, quickly, so that:
    4) solder flows down the pin, across the pad, through the plated through-hole...
    5) and you can remove the heat so that you don't start burning stuff, lifting pads, etc.

    You may help your situation by getting a flux pen and using it to add flux before
    you try and add solder - add the flux, add the heat, then add the solder, or in most
    of your cases, simply add the flux, then add the heat - you probably already have
    sufficient solder. There shouldn't be any of the pad left visible without solder if
    you're doing it right because the solder will flow right across the hot pad.

    While you need to address that in order to get reliable operation, it shouldn't be
    causing the short-circuit to GND on the USB 5v that you're experiencing. I am
    still suspicious of your TRRS cable. Have you checked for shorts in that? Have
    you checked with your multimeter for shorts from power to ground when it is
    plugged in?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Zustiur on Sat, 20 June 2015, 02:21:49
    Hi guys, it's stupid question time:

    Earlier in the thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.3000) it's mentioned that the case layers are 2 layers of 3 mm and 3 layers of 5 mm.
    3x5+2*3 = 21mm. So how is that M3x20 screws, which have a length of 20mm can hold 21 mm of case together?

    What am I missing? What have I got wrong??

    I just grabbed a more accurate ruler. The total thickness of my case appears to be 16 mm. So what are the plate thicknesses that were used by Litster & Massdrop?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Sat, 20 June 2015, 04:33:22
    Hi guys, it's stupid question time:

    Earlier in the thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.3000) it's mentioned that the case layers are 2 layers of 3 mm and 3 layers of 5 mm.
    3x5+2*3 = 21mm. So how is that M3x20 screws, which have a length of 20mm can hold 21 mm of case together?
    It's 3/16 in and 1/8 in (so 4.76mm and 3.18mm), but that still more than 20mm, and 20mm screws should indeed be too short. I remember people having troubles with screws and using longer ones.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dougp on Mon, 27 July 2015, 08:02:50
    Is the ErgoDox PCB reversible?  i.e. if I wanted to use it as a base for a one-handed keyboard, and use the PCB kit to produce two keyboards, would that be possible?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: kurplop on Mon, 27 July 2015, 08:11:42
    As I remember, it is reversible but the teensy will then be mounted on the bottom and the diodes will have to be reversed.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: dougp on Mon, 27 July 2015, 08:16:53
    As I remember, it is reversible but the teensy will then be mounted on the bottom and the diodes will have to be reversed.

    So, assuming I go "lefty" - everything will solder normal on the left portion of the keyboard, with the Teensy mounted on top and diodes proper but when I flip the right portion, that's when the Teensy will go on bottom and diodes would be reversed?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bcredbottle on Mon, 27 July 2015, 08:54:19
    You have a whole lot of cold joints, which will cause you problems.
    You need to ensure that:
    1) You have enough flux in play
    2) You have your iron hot enough, but not too hot
    3) You get both the pin and the pad hot enough, quickly, so that:
    4) solder flows down the pin, across the pad, through the plated through-hole...
    5) and you can remove the heat so that you don't start burning stuff, lifting pads, etc.

    You may help your situation by getting a flux pen and using it to add flux before
    you try and add solder - add the flux, add the heat, then add the solder, or in most
    of your cases, simply add the flux, then add the heat - you probably already have
    sufficient solder. There shouldn't be any of the pad left visible without solder if
    you're doing it right because the solder will flow right across the hot pad.

    While you need to address that in order to get reliable operation, it shouldn't be
    causing the short-circuit to GND on the USB 5v that you're experiencing. I am
    still suspicious of your TRRS cable. Have you checked for shorts in that? Have
    you checked with your multimeter for shorts from power to ground when it is
    plugged in?

    How can you tell if it's a cold joint from looking at it?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Mon, 27 July 2015, 09:46:30
    Not smooth and shiny.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Mon, 27 July 2015, 13:39:04
    Well, I would tell it is more about nice concave surface so that you can see how solder attaches to the pin/pad. Of course, smooth and shiny is desirable too. But you can have bad joint even with nice surface, especially if you add a lot of solder then a bad joint may be hidden below the surface. That is the reason you do not want too much solder in the joint. You want to see that the solder nicely asymptotically touches the pin/pad. This is not visible with too much solder.
    You can see some examples here:
    https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-guide-excellent-soldering/common-problems
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: swaziloo on Wed, 19 August 2015, 16:32:55
    I self-sourced an ErgoDox last February (got tired of waiting for Massdrop) and have been using it as my primary desktop keyboard at home since then. At the time I, used some basic 4-40 screws/nuts from the hardware store, 'cause I couldn't figure out something nicer, which made me unhappy with my final result.

    Well, no more. Last night I replaced the crap hardware with something far nicer:
    (http://www.monkeymind.com/waste/ergodox-top.jpg)
    (http://www.monkeymind.com/waste/ergodox-bottom.jpg)

    This required drilling out all the holes on the bottom two layers with a 4mm plastic bit, and making a shallow countersink with an 8mm bit in the top layer. The drilling made me a little nervous, but I used the drill press at the makerspace in Marin and took my time, and there were no issues, even with that one hole that is really close to the edge of the inside bend.

    Here are links to the stuff I used:
    (http://www.monkeymind.com/waste/hardware.jpg)
    Brass Press-Fit Expansion Insert for Plastics: http://www.mcmaster.com/#94510a310/=ykg46k
    4.0mm Drill Bit for Plastics: http://www.mcmaster.com/#27465a413/=ykg4f7
    M3 x 20mm Brass Screw: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161587430694

    I specifically wanted brass, and though the Chinese company's screws are a little "rough," I like the way they look. It would be just as easy to get M3 x 20mm zinc, stainless, plastic, etc. flat-head screws to match your style.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Thu, 20 August 2015, 02:09:49
    Really nice Swaziloo. Far better.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Thu, 20 August 2015, 02:30:01
    mine...

    [attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Fri, 21 August 2015, 04:31:15
    @yoobe ?  The case is from where?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Fri, 21 August 2015, 10:29:31
    @yoobe ?  The case is from where?

    I ordered it on falbatech : http://falbatech.pl/prestashop/index.php?id_product=44&controller=product&id_lang=2
    It is compact PVC case (no need for extra plate)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Fri, 21 August 2015, 10:53:22
    I created a thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74611.0) for adding Bluetooth to Ergodox with replacing the teensy with Bluefruit LE Micro board (https://www.adafruit.com/product/2661 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/2661))
    It is a board with the same micro controller of the ergodox (ATmega32u4) and a Bluetooth Low Energy HID capable chip.

    (https://www.adafruit.com/images/1200x900/2661-06.jpg)

    The thread is not attracting people I guess.. maybe more luck here..

    Anyone can tell me if it is possible? and maybe draw how to re-cable my existing ergodox with it..
    I assume it is easy for an electronic engineer... not my case.

    I will then check the firmware on how to change it to make it work.

    thanks.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vvp on Fri, 21 August 2015, 16:12:23
    Nobody is responding since it is not an 20 minutes job but few hours job and ideally it should be done by somebody who has both ergodox and Bluefruit LE Micro.
    One needs to decide how to map Bluefruit pins to Teensy pins and take into account whether
    * it will be easier to connect them as they are positioned 1 to 1 as much as possible and then maybe scratch few traces on the PCB here and there and reconnect the traces elsewhere;
    * or rather map the pins logically the same way as much as possible ... i.e. connect Bluefruit pads to the Teensy pads on the ergodox PCB using short jumper wires which will be crossing each other in a rather ugly way.

    If you think you can modify the firmware then you probably understand low level C, GPIO and a tiny bit about protocols (I2C, port expander, matrix scanning, ...) and that means you can decide how to map Bluefruit pins to Teensy pins. It is not hard it is just laborious. Give it a try. Maybe post the mapping you think is best. Maybe somebody will comment on it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Sat, 22 August 2015, 08:49:52
    Yes as you advised I started to work on the mapping..


    Here is what I have done for now:


    [/size]here is the result:[size=78%]


    More

    [/size]AtMega32u4Number BlueFruit Micro   Teensy   BlueFuit Pin OrTeensy Pin Order
    [/size]   AREF     42        AREF      AREF (Interi      L14
    [/size]   AVCC     44         3V           Vcc           L15
    [/size]  AVCC1     24         3V           Vcc           L15
    [/size]    D-       4         USB          USB        internal
    [/size]    D+       3         USB          USB        internal
    [/size]   GND      15         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]   GND      PAD                     GND
    [/size]   GND1     23         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]   GND2     35         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]   GND3     43         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]   PB0       8                       B0           NA
    [/size]   PB1       9         SCK           B1           L06
    [/size]   PB2      10        MOSI           B2           L05
    [/size]   PB3      11        MISO           B3           L04
    [/size]   PB4      28     8 (BLE_CS)        B4           R09
    [/size]   PB5      29          9            B5           R08
    [/size]   PB6      30         10            B6           R07
    [/size]   PB7      12         11            B7           R06
    [/size]   PC6      31          5            C6           R12
    [/size]   PC7      32         13            C7           R04
    [/size]   PD0      18        3/SCL          D0           R14
    [/size]   PD1      19        2/SDA          D1           R15
    [/size]   PD2      20        0/RX           D2           L03
    [/size]   PD3      21        1/TX           D3           L02
    [/size]   PD4      25    4 (SWDIO/RST)      D4           R13
    [/size]   PD5      22                       D5           NA
    [/size]   PD6      26         12          D6/LED         R05
    [/size]   PD7      27          6            D7           R11
    [/size]   PE2      33         3V           GND           L15
    [/size]   PE6       1      Z_BLE_IRQ   E6 (Interior      R10
    [/size]   PF0      41         A5            F0           L07
    [/size]   PF1      40         A4            F1           L08
    [/size]   PF4      39         A3            F4           L09
    [/size]   PF5      38         A2            F5           L10
    [/size]   PF6      37         A1            F6           L11
    [/size]   PF7      36         A0            F7           L12
    [/size]  RESET     13         RST          RST           L16
    [/size]   UCAP      6       G (GND)       3V/GND         R11
    [/size]   UGND      5         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]   UVCC      2         3V           Vcc           L15
    [/size]   VBUS      7     VBUS (USB)      "+3V3"         R03
    [/size]   VCC      34         3V           Vcc           L15
    [/size]   VCC1     14         3V           Vcc           L15
    [/size]  XTAL1     16       Y1/GND         GND           R16
    [/size]  XTAL2     17         GND          GND           R16
    [/size]                 DFU (BLUETOOTH)                  L01
    [/size]                       BAT                        R01
    [/size]                     G (GND)                      R02


    [attach=1]


    What do you think? 


    I think there is room to remap some I/O but to port the ergodox different firmwares to this, it is better to keep same micro-controller pins the same way.




    Now the difficult part for me... Is it better to have a small PCB made to remap the ergodox connections to the bluefruit or I need to make this with flexible cables?


    Thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Sat, 22 August 2015, 09:21:24
    Idea to have all mapped in a ergodox box :


    what do you think?


    [attach=1]

    I need to check the size of the board and the battery (here is the 2500 mAh http://www.adafruit.com/product/328)

    bluefruit size: 51.0mm x 23.0mm x 4.5mm / 2.0" x 0.9" x 0.2"
    battery Size: 2" x 2.55" x 0.30" (51mm x 65mm x 8mm)


    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 22 September 2015, 01:12:21
    Very interesting, yoobe. I have plans to make my own Ergodox-like board using a Bluefruit LE to use with my phone. It will be a single board, a lot like a Truly Ergonomic but without the Fkeys at the top. Kind of like an Atreus but with a few more keys.

    At the moment, I'm thinking that I will try to keep it electronically lot like the Ergodox, using the Bluefruit LE for the keys on the right hand side, and a MCP23018 for the keys on the left hand side. Hopefully I'll be able to modify the TMK firmware to make it work as some of the pins have to be changed, but I'll try to keep the layout as similar as I can so it's not too much work to modify.

    Make sure to let everyone know how you're going with your project.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pkircher on Tue, 22 September 2015, 04:34:54
    the matrix is actualy identical if you use the tmk firmware you should not need to change anything .. afaik the teensy flasher tool should still work .. there isnt much difference in it .. chipset is the same ..

    as for charging the lipo : https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/powerboost-1000-charger-rechargeable-5v-lipo-usb-boost-1a-1000c

    that should do
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 22 September 2015, 08:43:47
    the matrix is actualy identical if you use the tmk firmware you should not need to change anything .. afaik the teensy flasher tool should still work .. there isnt much difference in it .. chipset is the same ..

    as for charging the lipo : https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/powerboost-1000-charger-rechargeable-5v-lipo-usb-boost-1a-1000c

    that should do

    Wow, I think you're right! I had a quick look over the pins and it does look like you could design a board using a Bluefruit LE and MCP23018 and have the normal Ergodox firmware work with no modification (you'd have to modify it to use bluetooth of course).

    For the power there's the Adafruit Pro Trinket LiIon/LiPoly Backpack Add-On (https://www.adafruit.com/products/2124).

    Now I need to get back to learning pcb design. The hard part for me is getting the keys laid out at the weird angles and positions required for an ergo board.

    I didn't think teensy flasher will work with anything but a teensy...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pkircher on Tue, 22 September 2015, 08:48:19
    you might dont have to redesign the pcb at all .. if you use say a small pcb over the orignal dox pcb 

    so you build a layer ..

    bt pcb
    "pin switcher pcb"
    ergodox

    that should work just fine while it still fitts in a standart case .. the battery placment is a total different monster + placement of the lipo charger :)

    it should just increase the height of the pcb by say .. 3 mm max

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 22 September 2015, 18:35:20
    I want to build it as a portable board to use with my phone via bluetooth, so I want to build a one piece board, not split. Someone else can do the adapter board for the Ergodox. :-)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pkircher on Tue, 22 September 2015, 18:48:24
    its not an ergodox .. its a custom teensy like kb .. and therefor the wrong topic to be posted under thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 23 September 2015, 01:33:31
    Sorry. Please ignore.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Wed, 23 September 2015, 02:54:41
    Very interesting, yoobe. I have plans to make my own Ergodox-like board using a Bluefruit LE to use with my phone. It will be a single board, a lot like a Truly Ergonomic but without the Fkeys at the top. Kind of like an Atreus but with a few more keys.

    At the moment, I'm thinking that I will try to keep it electronically lot like the Ergodox, using the Bluefruit LE for the keys on the right hand side, and a MCP23018 for the keys on the left hand side. Hopefully I'll be able to modify the TMK firmware to make it work as some of the pins have to be changed, but I'll try to keep the layout as similar as I can so it's not too much work to modify.

    Make sure to let everyone know how you're going with your project.

    hi I started to work on this also... a 60% extended with BLE..
    I ordered all parts.. I am waiting them to start soldering and programmin..

    my thread https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74802.msg1846517#msg1846517 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74802.msg1846517#msg1846517)

    I don't want to break my ergodox for the moment.. I use it at work
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Fri, 06 November 2015, 15:40:58
    I just realized I never told you guys about this.

    Before the ergodox I used this wireless logitech board and I never took the receiver off my desk.   

    This gives me NUM and CAP lock LEDs, very handy.

    [attach=1]
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bcredbottle on Fri, 06 November 2015, 15:48:53
    I just realized I never told you guys about this.

    Before the ergodox I used this wireless logitech board and I never took the receiver off my desk.   

    This gives me NUM and CAP lock LEDs, very handy.

    (Attachment Link)

    My Ergodox has Num, Caps Lock, and Scroll Lock LEDs... I'm pretty sure you can solder them on if you have the right resistors
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Fri, 06 November 2015, 15:50:40
    It has them, but they are hidden under the keys and I can't see them.  Having that unit right in front of me was so convenient I never took it down.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Wed, 18 November 2015, 07:15:01
    It is about time that I showcased my "SchmergoDox", even though it does not have any case. It is quite modified which I think could be interesting to some.

    (Attachment Link)

    I had bought only bare PCBs in Massdrop's first run, because I had planned to build a simple and inexpensive board with PCB-mounted switches and reuse caps from old keyboards.

    Unfortunately the 1u options for the outermost columns had misplaced pin holes, so I discovered that I needed to drill in the PCBs to fit the switches and use a plate to hold them.
    I also found that the thumb keys were too far away... but I found that I could add an extra thumb key on each half, and that also required plates.

    Because I think the column offsets on the ErgoDox are too small, I wanted to compensate by using both higher OEM profile and lower SP-profile to get somewhat of a dished effect. I had a rubber dome keyboard from BTC where the alphanumerics are SP-profile and Cherry MX-compatible but the larger keys are not. I ordered a matching set of lasered OEM-profile keys from WASD Keyboards about a year ago. The BTC caps are the same profile as Signature Plastics' keys and used for middle and ring finger columns, but unfortunately they sit higher than the OEM-profile WASD caps so the height difference is not as high as I had anticipated it would be... They were actually retr0brite'd a year or two ago but they seem to have yellowed again.
    I based the layout somewhat on that of the µTron.

    I made one universal plate design for both halves in QCad, using Litster's blueprints as starting point. I had them laser-cut of 1.5 mm acrylic at Ponoko because the laser-cutter at the local makerspace was broken. I had to wait a few months for my plates from Ponoko, and the first shipment was in the wrong scale even...
    The good plates were then somewhat reinforced on the inside and painted. 1.5mm is not too thin for acrylic if there is a PCB and if you are careful during assembly. Afterwards I realized that I could have sandwiched two 1.5 mm plates, where the lower plate has larger holes for the switches and diodes.
    All but the innermost 2u keys have Cherry plate-mount stabilisers. I had made an error with the stabilisers: I had placed them facing the same way as Costar stabilisers would - with the wire on the same side as the diode. So I had to remove the diodes that were beside the stabilised switches and place new diodes inside them.

    I cut away the outermost thumb keys, because I wanted a smaller keyboard. I would have cut away some of the outer parts of the PCB also if they had not had mounting holes.
    When drilling or cutting a PCB, which is made of fibreglass, it is important that you don't inhale any fibreglass dust - it can literally kill you. I used a vacuum cleaner on full close to the PCB all the time and wore a dust mask.

    The TRRS sockets are not the recommended, but the FC68129 with its extra pins snipped off. Because I didn't solder the USB cable to the PCB, I needed to route a wire from the Teensy to the PCB to provide power for the left half: That is not necessary in later revisions of the PCB.
    The cables are cheap Chinese cables I got on eBay.

    The image below shows how I made the thumbkey mod. One key from the bottom row had to be sacrificed.
    I insulated the ground plane in the new drill holes with tinted epoxy. I used one stabilising pin from each switch and snipped the other. :)
    (Attachment Link)

    I started on a case, designed in QCad and hand-cut from thin wood... but the wood I got wasn't flat enough and some of the corners were difficult. I could build it from styrene easy enough, but I don't quite like styrene.
    I may build one later out of thicker lasercut plywood once I get access to the local makerspace's laser-cutter.

    What is your layout for this edited ergodox? (I know it's a thread bump  :-* )
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Wed, 18 November 2015, 08:04:14
    Idea to have all mapped in a ergodox box :


    what do you think?


    (Attachment Link)

    I need to check the size of the board and the battery (here is the 2500 mAh http://www.adafruit.com/product/328)

    bluefruit size: 51.0mm x 23.0mm x 4.5mm / 2.0" x 0.9" x 0.2"
    battery Size: 2" x 2.55" x 0.30" (51mm x 65mm x 8mm)

    Did you get anywhere with replacing the teensy with the Bluefruit Micro LE?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pkircher on Wed, 18 November 2015, 08:24:18
    hasu has done that on his hhkb controller using the bluefruit with tmk .. so that be exactly the point to analyze the code .. as i stated above .. it should not be hard at all
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 08:30:47
    Idea to have all mapped in a ergodox box :


    what do you think?


    (Attachment Link)

    I need to check the size of the board and the battery (here is the 2500 mAh http://www.adafruit.com/product/328 (http://www.adafruit.com/product/328))

    bluefruit size: 51.0mm x 23.0mm x 4.5mm / 2.0" x 0.9" x 0.2"
    battery Size: 2" x 2.55" x 0.30" (51mm x 65mm x 8mm)

    Did you get anywhere with replacing the teensy with the Bluefruit Micro LE?



    After searching a solution to have a fully programmable bluetooth keyboard, I started a new project (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74802.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74802.0)) based on a different board (nrf51822).
    I am currently writing the firmware with mbed.org. The Bluefruit Micro LE consume more power than the Arm based MCU I think.

    Once done, I could make a version for ErgoDox. I don't want to break my ErgoDox now because it takes time to have it working and I am using it.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Wed, 18 November 2015, 08:56:13
    I see you're no longer using the Bluefruit...

    But couldn't the Bluefruit utilize the TMK firmware with only slight modifications?

    I think that would be the quickest win.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Wed, 18 November 2015, 09:06:44
    I see you're no longer using the Bluefruit...

    But couldn't the Bluefruit utilize the TMK firmware with only slight modifications?

    I think that would be the quickest win.

    It should be possible I believe, you will need to write the bluetooth part if it is not done already by someone.

    I extended my initial idea with an oled screen, usb hub, macro, long press for alternative key like on smartphones (Accents, FN layer etc)
    I checked the source code of the TMK and other firmware.. I decided to go with C++ and mbed format.. maybe I am loosing time with rewriting a firmware but I want to control all parts of the final product.. I have fun to develop it :)
    I try to make it modular.. The firmware would be compatible with Teensy 3.2, nrf51822, Oled display and configurable matrix (re-use on other layout)

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: pkircher on Wed, 18 November 2015, 20:31:39
    yay lets reinvent the wheel .. what a great idea


    TMK does support the blue fruit with the HHKB controller from hasu if you would have done your homework/research you would know that

    there is no point to write a entire new firmware IF there is already a great one(which is widly used and successful) and can be made even better ..

    but that would be the logical aproach.

    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: yoobe on Thu, 19 November 2015, 01:21:28
    yay lets reinvent the wheel .. what a great idea


    TMK does support the blue fruit with the HHKB controller from hasu if you would have done your homework/research you would know that

    there is no point to write a entire new firmware IF there is already a great one(which is widly used and successful) and can be made even better ..

    but that would be the logical aproach.

    Being an engineer, I don't limit myself to copy/paste.. if nobody is interested, I keep it for me..
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cwils0n on Tue, 15 December 2015, 18:15:29
    Almost done with my Ergodox, just waiting on Carbon SA:

    (http://i.imgur.com/l6PYYVp.jpg)

    A few more pictures here. (http://imgur.com/a/J6Qzj)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: BigDov on Wed, 16 December 2015, 17:07:59
    Almost done with my Ergodox, just waiting on Carbon SA:

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/l6PYYVp.jpg)


    A few more pictures here. (http://imgur.com/a/J6Qzj)

    That is fantastic..... I like it!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Wed, 16 December 2015, 22:41:10
    Almost done with my Ergodox, just waiting on Carbon SA:

    A few more pictures here. (http://imgur.com/a/J6Qzj)

    Yea, I like the orange!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Thu, 17 December 2015, 12:32:02
    Just received my EZ, and (beside the huge customs and the fact that keys need some lube) I'm happy with it.

    That being said, I need to at least flash the layout (before even trying to mess with the firmware). I wanted to upload a hex, but I don't see a Teensy key in the official layout... Is the tiny hole on the right part an access to the Teesny button? Or do I have to (already) disassemble the unit to upload the hex?

    Anything I should know before uploading the hex?

    there is no point to write a entire new firmware IF there is already a great one(which is widly used and successful) and can be made even better ..
    I disagree... You're always need options. TMK is great, and I'm not sure I'll be able to create something as good, but at the same time, I see things really differently, even to get the same results most of the time. So I'll definitively try my ideas, and if that I can't interest others, that's not a problem.

    And you won't create the light bulb by trying to improve candles.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Thu, 17 December 2015, 14:05:04
    Is the ErgoDox EZ a standard ergodox? Does it use a standard teensy? Or is there custom hardware used for cheaper mass production?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: trauring on Thu, 17 December 2015, 14:15:52
    Is the ErgoDox EZ a standard ergodox? Does it use a standard teensy? Or is there custom hardware used for cheaper mass production?

    It's supposed to be completely standard with a Teensy. Only the case is custom designed for mass production.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cwils0n on Thu, 17 December 2015, 14:20:00
    Almost done with my Ergodox, just waiting on Carbon SA:

    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/l6PYYVp.jpg)


    A few more pictures here. (http://imgur.com/a/J6Qzj)

    That is fantastic..... I like it!

    Almost done with my Ergodox, just waiting on Carbon SA:

    A few more pictures here. (http://imgur.com/a/J6Qzj)

    Yea, I like the orange!

    Thanks!  Here's some shots with Carbon SA:

    (http://i.imgur.com/9PIWTYd.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/jam0a0A.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/DGWT0Gl.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/SSJjcNe.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Thu, 17 December 2015, 14:43:48
    Really nice, I especially like the font and colors. I wish I could get a set of custom caps at a not-stellar cost...

    Is the ErgoDox EZ a standard ergodox? Does it use a standard teensy? Or is there custom hardware used for cheaper mass production?
    As far as I know, it's standard Ergodox, pre-assembled, with an injection ABS case, PBT keycaps and a two-year warranty. It does use a Teensy 2 and come with a TMK fork preloaded.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Mon, 21 December 2015, 14:34:39
    Any idea where I could buy keypad enter 1x2 PBT MX keycaps? Preferably with a strong slope.

    The thumb keys on my dox use 2x1 keys turned 90 degrees, and I'm already finding those painful because the lateral edge became a bottom edge that hurt my thumb...
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: bcredbottle on Mon, 21 December 2015, 15:07:07
    Any idea where I could buy keypad enter 1x2 PBT MX keycaps? Preferably with a strong slope.

    The thumb keys on my dox use 2x1 keys turned 90 degrees, and I'm already finding those painful because the lateral edge became a bottom edge that hurt my thumb...

    Might wanna try G20 singles from PMK. The G20 have a strong slope and rounded edges.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: wackottl on Mon, 21 December 2015, 17:09:32
    There was no video of the Infinity Ergodox with back lit keys so I made a quick one.


    Thought you guys might like to see.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Koren on Mon, 21 December 2015, 17:16:35
    Might wanna try G20 singles from PMK. The G20 have a strong slope and rounded edges.
    That's currently the best solution I've found, indeed... I'll go that way if I can't find cylindrical PBT. Thanks for the suggestion!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Mon, 21 December 2015, 21:07:44
    My latest build. Playing with laser cutting wood. Top layer is cherry MDF with other layers being black acrylic.

    Probably end up selling it as I have too many ergodoxes as it is. It sure is fun building these. 

    (http://i.imgur.com/VSFA8Yc.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/g8l6JIY.jpg)

    More images here: http://imgur.com/a/41oqb
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cwils0n on Wed, 23 December 2015, 10:52:13
    Ordered these feet from ebay:

    (http://imgur.com/QHmwagW.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cNile on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:24:55
    Hey guys, just quickly posting a question whilst I'm at work, in hopes to read replies when I get home.

    Sorry if I go over somethings that have already been touched on or answered within this topic, but my browsing time is at present limited, so I'll get right to the point.

    I'm looking at this split keyboard in wonderment, the left hand side of it would be perfect for me as a gaming pad, freeing up massive amounts of desk real estate!

    Could I build one half of this? Would the software still work? It's to my understanding that this split keyboard is tethered each half to each other, if I was to build just the left side, could that connector port support just going straight to the PC?

    Also roughly, how much would building one half cost?
    Thank you in advance for any answers I may receive, and apologies if I have offended anyone or broken any rules.

    (Very intimidating website).

    :)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:26:38
    Ordered these feet from ebay:

    Show Image
    (http://imgur.com/QHmwagW.jpg)


    That board is a real beaut! Where'd you get the colored case layers?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cwils0n on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:38:46
    That board is a real beaut! Where'd you get the colored case layers?

    Thanks!  I got it from u/Narcoleptic_Bat on Reddit. 
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:17:53
    New creations I made for customers:

    Purple Dox:
    (http://i.imgur.com/L8zldhb.jpg)

    Album: http://imgur.com/a/wucaU

    Storm Trooper Dox:
    (http://i.imgur.com/OT20zC7.jpg)

    Album: http://imgur.com/a/unKrA
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:20:17
    New creations I made for customers:

    Purple Dox:
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/L8zldhb.jpg)


    Album: http://imgur.com/a/wucaU

    Maybe I'm colorblind, but that Purple Dox looks silver.  :confused:
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:22:26
    New creations I made for customers:

    Purple Dox:
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/L8zldhb.jpg)


    Album: http://imgur.com/a/wucaU

    Maybe I'm colorblind, but that Purple Dox looks silver.  :confused:


    Really? you see that as silver?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:23:04
    New creations I made for customers:

    Purple Dox:
    Show Image
    (http://i.imgur.com/L8zldhb.jpg)


    Album: http://imgur.com/a/wucaU

    Maybe I'm colorblind, but that Purple Dox looks silver.  :confused:


    Really? you see that as silver?

    Yeah. Unless it's the lighting and the purple isn't captured too well in the photographs.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: jeb on Tue, 02 February 2016, 11:23:59
    Hey guys, just quickly posting a question whilst I'm at work, in hopes to read replies when I get home.

    Sorry if I go over somethings that have already been touched on or answered within this topic, but my browsing time is at present limited, so I'll get right to the point.

    I'm looking at this split keyboard in wonderment, the left hand side of it would be perfect for me as a gaming pad, freeing up massive amounts of desk real estate!

    Could I build one half of this? Would the software still work? It's to my understanding that this split keyboard is tethered each half to each other, if I was to build just the left side, could that connector port support just going straight to the PC?

    Also roughly, how much would building one half cost?
    Thank you in advance for any answers I may receive, and apologies if I have offended anyone or broken any rules.

    (Very intimidating website).

    :)

    Unfortunately for your purposes, the controller which connects to the computer is on the right hand side. It's possible to install the controller on either hand's board, but the difficulty is that if you were to do this to have a left hand board with a controller, it wouldn't fit the cases that are easily available. Some ways around this would be a custom case, building some small box containing the controller that the left hand can plug into, or the simplest option, using a full Ergodox and putting the right hand somewhere out of the way.

    There may be better solutions that have come up; this isn't something I've tried.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cNile on Tue, 02 February 2016, 12:50:13
    Unfortunately for your purposes, the controller which connects to the computer is on the right hand side. It's possible to install the controller on either hand's board, but the difficulty is that if you were to do this to have a left hand board with a controller, it wouldn't fit the cases that are easily available. Some ways around this would be a custom case, building some small box containing the controller that the left hand can plug into, or the simplest option, using a full Ergodox and putting the right hand somewhere out of the way.

    There may be better solutions that have come up; this isn't something I've tried.

    That does sound unfortunate, having the full set up is not an option, as I have my daily driver keyboard mounted on a shelve directly below my wall mounted monitor, don't worry, its more comfortable that it sounds.


    This leaves my desk wide open, and nice gaming pad would fit on there! My setup would be complete, but I cannot find a gaming pad that I like or that had the layout or the right amount of keys that I need.

    The left hand of the ErgoDox is "perfect"..

    Could someone on here make this happen? If so how much? How much for the full build generally speaking?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: plainbriny on Tue, 02 February 2016, 19:20:23
    The left hand of the ErgoDox is "perfect"..
    Could someone on here make this happen? If so how much? How much for the full build generally speaking?

    Just join the infinite ergodox drop.
    The infinite ergodox has two independent halves, you can connect either or both to the computer. The two halves can communicate over a USB 3.0 cable, which is really neat.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cNile on Wed, 03 February 2016, 03:43:23
    Just join the infinite ergodox drop.
    The infinite ergodox has two independent halves, you can connect either or both to the computer. The two halves can communicate over a USB 3.0 cable, which is really neat.

    Well, it seems that last drop just ended xD.
    Just my luck, I requested another drop. 

    Did you see how much it was before it ended?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: romevi on Wed, 03 February 2016, 08:28:43
    Just join the infinite ergodox drop.
    The infinite ergodox has two independent halves, you can connect either or both to the computer. The two halves can communicate over a USB 3.0 cable, which is really neat.

    Well, it seems that last drop just ended xD.
    Just my luck, I requested another drop. 

    Did you see how much it was before it ended?

    $160 for just the kit. Switches were at least $30 extra. I forget how much caps were.

    How did you miss it? It was up for about a couple of weeks!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: vatin on Wed, 03 February 2016, 08:50:49
    Just join the infinite ergodox drop.
    The infinite ergodox has two independent halves, you can connect either or both to the computer. The two halves can communicate over a USB 3.0 cable, which is really neat.

    Well, it seems that last drop just ended xD.
    Just my luck, I requested another drop. 

    Did you see how much it was before it ended?
    Sign up your email here. You'll get notify when a drop is coming
    http://input.club/devices/infinity-ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: cNile on Wed, 03 February 2016, 10:32:18
    Signed up, thank you. I'm from the UK so shipping may be a bit pricey. We'll see, this will be such an awesome edition to my man cave I can't wait!
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: davkol on Fri, 05 February 2016, 14:37:15
    The FalbaTech's PVC case is symmetrical; there shouldn't be any problem using it with the controller on either side.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Fri, 05 February 2016, 15:17:23
    It's symmetrical left and right... But may not be symmetrical top to bottom. Remember... If the controller is on the left half, it'll be on the bottom of the PCB... Not the top.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Sat, 06 February 2016, 08:19:02
    Customer sent me high def images of the build I did for him:

    (http://i.imgur.com/XgQ5qKP.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/yDr7N6R.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/J23Dn6S.jpg)

    (http://i.imgur.com/tGpAm7l.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: flog on Mon, 07 March 2016, 14:05:54
    LEDs on the left (MCP23018) side!  :cool:

    (Attachment Link)

    Sorry for the blurry pic.  Right now they only light up at init and go out after a second so not enough time to get a good snapshot.

    I mounted them so they show out the inner side.  The MCP23018 will only sink current so it would require hacking the PCB to get LEDs to work under the keys.

    Here is the modification.  Resistors for LEDa and LEDb are in the same place as the Teensy side (they go to pins 9/GPB6 and 10/GPB7).  LEDc resistor is in the shrink wrap going to pin 27 (GPA7).  The 3 red wires are +5V.  Resistors are all 330.  LEDs are LTL-433 (flat) series.

    (Attachment Link)

    They work a bit differently than the Teensy LEDs.  State changes are not immediate.  The LED settings are piggybacked on to the normal traffic going to the MCP23018.

    I've attached the diffs against partial-rewrite branch.  All they do is flash on during init.  If I can figure out where the "current layer" is remembered I will probably use them to show the layer.

    Took a shot at adding leftleds to my ergodox. But I decided to go with the leds under the caps. Here's how it turned out:
    (http://i.imgur.com/CBXF7sb.jpg)
    (http://i.imgur.com/FNUCI5R.jpg)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: e_l_tang on Tue, 26 April 2016, 01:13:55
    I've been looking at the code and I noticed something interesting: the ErgoDox has a sideways matrix. Does anyone know why it was designed that way?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Fri, 27 May 2016, 03:12:56
    I've posted on github a way to change LCD logo on the ergodox (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox) with something personnal. In my case Dansgaming "dangasm" emoji.

    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/danGasm.png)

    This not perfect but how care..

    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/close_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)

    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/full_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)

    Here the infos : https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: romevi on Sat, 28 May 2016, 00:33:15
    I've posted on github a way to change LCD logo on the ergodox (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox) with something personnal. In my case Dansgaming "dangasm" emoji.

    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/danGasm.png)


    This not perfect but how care..

    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/close_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)


    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/full_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)


    Here the infos : https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox

    I always thought it'd be cool if people could program games or whatnot on the LCD screens. Seeing that guy program a version of whack-a-mole on his keyboard (Razer? Cooler Master?) made me think of the games etc. we can do with our keyboards on the hardware level.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Sat, 28 May 2016, 14:18:06
    I've posted on github a way to change LCD logo on the ergodox (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox) with something personnal. In my case Dansgaming "dangasm" emoji.

    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/danGasm.png)


    This not perfect but how care..

    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/close_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)


    Show Image
    (https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox/raw/master/full_dangasm_ergodox.jpg)


    Here the infos : https://github.com/benoittgt/dangasm_ergodox

    I always thought it'd be cool if people could program games or whatnot on the LCD screens. Seeing that guy program a version of whack-a-mole on his keyboard (Razer? Cooler Master?) made me think of the games etc. we can do with our keyboards on the hardware level.

    Their is a snake : https://github.com/bobbyblues/ergodox_infinity  ;)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: SinFulNard on Thu, 30 June 2016, 18:17:06
    I'm excited! I joined the drop and this will be my first MK. A guy in the MD discussion had this idea of LEDs that ripple when you touch a key. Is this possible with the infinity? Can each key have a LED installed or only certain keys?

    Love the custom images on the screen, will def do that as well.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: layornos on Fri, 01 July 2016, 03:03:05
    Got someone the KICAD file(s) of the Ergodox PCB?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: profet on Sun, 31 July 2016, 08:59:17
    Just built myself a stainless steel ergodox.

    Build Log:  http://imgur.com/a/o8EYK
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: robotmaxtron on Mon, 15 August 2016, 21:26:57
    I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but what's happened with Ergodox.org? It looks like it didn't get renewed, does anybody know who the primary contact for maintaining the website is?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Tue, 16 August 2016, 02:14:47
    People from https://input.club/ ?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Tue, 16 August 2016, 02:19:45
    Hello

    Does someone have a blinking lcd when switching to other layout? For example I'm want to switch to ƒ1 with a key on the right keyboard, the LCD of the right keyboard stay pink while pressing the key but the left lcd blink few milliseconds in pink then return as normal.

    It's not an issue for first layer for the left hand but I don't understand why I have this.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: lekashman on Tue, 16 August 2016, 20:11:51
    I sent a message to the owner, haven't heard back yet though.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: robotmaxtron on Sun, 13 November 2016, 17:24:00
    Since the original Ergodox.org domain doesn't appear to be coming back, I've registered Ergodox.io designed to be a replacement documentation style site. I know it still needs a lot of work, I'll be working towards improving it over the coming weeks.

    PR's and Github issue requests welcome.

    http://ergodox.io/ (http://ergodox.io/)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: sinusoid on Tue, 29 November 2016, 05:51:44
    <paraphrase> I rebuilt it 200% more awesome </paraphrase>

    Over from reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5fcbyf/introducing_ergodoxio_an_ergodoxorg_replacement/), thanks a lot for this! :D
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: robotmaxtron on Tue, 29 November 2016, 14:18:36
    <paraphrase> I rebuilt it 200% more awesome </paraphrase>

    Over from reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5fcbyf/introducing_ergodoxio_an_ergodoxorg_replacement/), thanks a lot for this! :D

    Thanks! I'm glad people are finding it useful.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Heliobb on Sun, 15 January 2017, 06:45:40
    Hello

    I have this layout (http://i.imgur.com/cf2AxVy.png).

    I build the config on osx but I have an issue. The key selected (in red on the capture) map correctly backtick only when left hand is plug. When both hands are plugged I get ~.

    I have a custom bash script where I've mapped the kll generated from input club website, I also use a custom kll for lcd screen : https://github.com/benoittgt/controller/blob/master/Keyboards/ergodox.bash#L26 

    (http://i.imgur.com/C3ElwK7.jpg?1)

    Do know why I have those errors? I have the same issue with on other key but for all the others, not problems.

    Cheers

    PS : config files are here : https://github.com/benoittgt/controller/tree/master/Config_files_from_input_club
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Sun, 17 October 2021, 17:59:31
    Working on an ergodox that I added a Fn row to and I'm coming back to the project after a hiatus.

    Ordering a few missing microelectronics I need but I can't seem to source the 5x short jumpers. Does anyone have a link to some?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 17 October 2021, 19:35:58
    A jumper is just a short piece of wire. You'd make those yourself from, for instance resistors's legs that you have snipped short.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Sun, 07 November 2021, 19:27:18
    A jumper is just a short piece of wire. You'd make those yourself from, for instance resistors's legs that you have snipped short.

    heh, seems obvious now. Thank you!

    I'm also having trouble sourcing a keycap set for the board since I'm doing it solo and not as a mass drop or group buy. Signature plastics quoted around $800 for a one off of blank white alphas and blank orange modifiers and that's an order of magnitude above what I was looking for.

    Do the thumb cluster keys have to be a specific row profile for GMK keycaps, or will an 2u and 1.5u keys work?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ddot on Mon, 08 November 2021, 01:00:17
    I'm also having trouble sourcing a keycap set for the board since I'm doing it solo and not as a mass drop or group buy. Signature plastics quoted around $800 for a one off of blank white alphas and blank orange modifiers and that's an order of magnitude above what I was looking for.

    There's a few options out there depending on exactly what you're looking for.  Are you looking for specific colours?  Blanks or legends?  Profile?

    A couple options from KBDfans and KPrepublic.  You may also find some sales on Aliexpress on Nov 11 too.
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002592844335.html
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32961267058.html
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 08 November 2021, 06:48:19
    White PBT blanks could be dyed bright colours with fabric dye, if you're careful. Not very fancy and you might not get the exact hue or full saturation, but it could be option.

    BTW, it is difficult to dye keycaps black, because black consists of different inks that are absorbed differently.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Mon, 08 November 2021, 15:03:54
    White PBT blanks could be dyed bright colours with fabric dye, if you're careful. Not very fancy and you might not get the exact hue or full saturation, but it could be option.

    BTW, it is difficult to dye keycaps black, because black consists of different inks that are absorbed differently.

    Hmm, a blank white PBT set with trying to dye the modifiers might be worth trying out handn't heard of this before thanks
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Mon, 08 November 2021, 15:11:48
    White PBT blanks could be dyed bright colours with fabric dye, if you're careful. Not very fancy and you might not get the exact hue or full saturation, but it could be option.

    BTW, it is difficult to dye keycaps black, because black consists of different inks that are absorbed differently.

    Thanks for the links!

    It's a gift for my sibling who wants blank white alphas and blank orange modifiers. I don't know if there's a profile preference but I don't think there is, or the default popular ones (e.g. GMK) will work fine.

    Never heard of dying keycaps before, might be worth delving.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: ddot on Mon, 08 November 2021, 15:53:27
    It's a gift for my sibling who wants blank white alphas and blank orange modifiers. I don't know if there's a profile preference but I don't think there is, or the default popular ones (e.g. GMK) will work fine.

    Another thought. Go here:

    https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dsa-standard-keysets/

    Get an English Alpha Kit, WAN/WFJ, Blank for $50
    Plus an Ergodox modifier kit, OAX/OAZ, Blank for $44
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Mon, 08 November 2021, 16:37:45
    It's a gift for my sibling who wants blank white alphas and blank orange modifiers. I don't know if there's a profile preference but I don't think there is, or the default popular ones (e.g. GMK) will work fine.

    Another thought. Go here:

    https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dsa-standard-keysets/

    Get an English Alpha Kit, WAN/WFJ, Blank for $50
    Plus an Ergodox modifier kit, OAX/OAZ, Blank for $44

    This is perfect, thank you! The orange options are the right shade and the modifiers only is propitious


    on an unrelated note I bought the wrong USB mini b connector, can someone confirm that the following will work https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-FCI/10033526-N3222MLF?qs=LmzVcvYPptRriY26yhJP4g%3D%3D (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-FCI/10033526-N3222MLF?qs=LmzVcvYPptRriY26yhJP4g%3D%3D)
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Mon, 08 November 2021, 23:06:28
    Nevermind, I've found https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/54819-0519?utm_term=54819-0519&qs=x6EjVpvqMVObi%252bAAyuuEww%3D%3D&utm_campaign=54819-0519&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_source=findchips&utm_content=Molex (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/54819-0519?utm_term=54819-0519&qs=x6EjVpvqMVObi%252bAAyuuEww%3D%3D&utm_campaign=54819-0519&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_source=findchips&utm_content=Molex) which should work

    I think that answers all my questions for this build, thanks everyone
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Tue, 16 November 2021, 19:45:27
    I'm having trouble stripping the male USB mini B from the housing, does anyone have any tips or methods that worked? I saw in the linked assembly video on the ergodox.io guide the person uses a dremel tool but I don't have one. I already tried one with a box opener and when I tried to pry it apart after repeatedly cutting through it with a box cutter, I managed to cut the wires somehow in the prying.
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Thu, 18 November 2021, 21:49:19
    I had success with using a heating gun to make the plastic malleable and then using a pick to hook into and take off the housing

    Hopefully last question: I accidentally ordered all 3mm acrylic sheets -- will this matter?
    Title: Re: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.
    Post by: TheloniousDrunk on Thu, 05 May 2022, 09:32:29
    On the very last step. Have the keyboard assembled and switches soldered to PCB, just need to tweak the firmware for the new function row. so far what I can tell is that I need to modify the ergodox_ez.h file from the qmk repos. I'm adding a new layout with #define LAYOUT_ergodox_fn. It seems like the matrix positions are transposed from the actual layout values above them, so I'm operating on that one.

    Since I'm adding a row I'll have to add something to the I2C aliases and register addresses at the top to reference which pin on the MCP and the teensy have the new row mapped to them.

    Other than that I should be able to just define my kemap and flash, correct? Is there anything I'm missing about the process?