I think the image you have labelled as "me:" is closest to how I use the ErgoDox. The bottom row, left-most key that you have slightly turned -- I like that. I'm already hitting that key with my thumbs, so pushing it a bit more away from the rest of the fingers would work well for me. [...]How do you feel about the 4 suggested ideas at the top of the thread?
Along that same idea, maybe also change the other 2u to a 1.25u/1.5u keycap turned 90deg, and drop the last 1u completely. I think I like the idea of using a 1.25u keycap for these 2 keys because 1.25u with a Row4 profile are pretty easy to find (existing alt or ctrl caps). I would probably invert the cap, so that it slopes down. This is just off-the-cuff thinking -- I have no idea if this would be comfortable to hit with the thumb.
Personally, I find that I don't use most of the 1u in the thumb cluster very often. I have them mapped to some less used keys. And when I do use them, I end up using my index finger to hit them.
How do you feel about the 4 suggested ideas at the top of the thread?
(I should probably break these into separate images and name them so folks can annotate them separately.)
For my layout, the outermost 4 keys of the bottom row, on the right hand, are mapped to the arrow keys, vi-style. It's only the innermost key that I use with my thumb. So I would probably change the 1.5u closest to the three 1u keys back to a 1u. *shrug* I know my layout is weird compared to what most people use.Personally, I think if we want arrows, we should just add arrows:
I would do these changes:Then it starts getting pretty far from the original Ergodox. I just want to tweak it, not make a completely unrelated design. (These seem like okay ideas though. Wanna try your hand at a mockup?)
I think the closest thumb key to the bottom row should be angled slightly, again.Just for the visual appearance, or to get it slightly closer to the hand, or..? Would you leave a gap in the top 2 thumb keys? (Or just take those out entirely?) Care to sketch how you’d do it?
I actually prefer my keycaps to be all the same height/plane, like SA Row 3.Is this for aesthetic reasons, or because you want to use a non-QWERTY layout, or because you like spherical tops, or...? Is it mainly the different angles at the top that bother you, or the different heights?
I'm not sure about the increased column stagger. I think I'd have to try it before I could say one way or another. That said, I like the feel of the existing stagger on the ErgoDox, and I also like the stagger on the TECK. But even a more matrix layout would be better than the standard stagger.On the TECK, are there any keys you find it difficult to reach? For instance, how comfortable is it for you to type the N and B keys (in QWERTY layout; or substitute whatever key your layout puts there)? What about the Alt and AltGr keys? What about - + ` ´ keys? [I’m not trying to critique their layout, I’m just curious how you find it in practice.]
With the modified bottom row/arrow cluster, that gap between the left key and the bottom key of the middle finger row, visually, I want to see another key there. I'm not sure if it makes sense, though.Does the similar gap on the TECK bother you? Would you find a use for an extra key stuck in there?
I think I would be OK with 1u keycaps for the outermost column, but I would still put the shift keys in their normal locations. That's one old habit I can't break -- I couldn't get used to hitting shift with my thumbs, even after a month.How do you feel about using the keys directly to the right/left of the pinky fingers for shift, the way the TECK does it? (Various other keyboards also do this; personally I think it’s quite a bit better than the standard shift location, but I think a thumb key is also nice for shift.)
I think I would be OK with 1u keycaps for the outermost column, but I would still put the shift keys in their normal locations. That's one old habit I can't break -- I couldn't get used to hitting shift with my thumbs, even after a month.It took me about two weeks to feel more comfortable with Shift on thumbs (instead of on pinkies). I did not do any special training for that. Only the first few days were hard (I made a lot of mistakes).
Wanna try your hand at a mockup?Katy has a priority now (at least till the first releasable version). Then I may try this kind of thumb cluster too. May be on a contoured version. My feeling is that it will not be better than the Maltron like thumb cluster, but it looks nicer and usable too.
My feeling is that it will not be better than the Maltron like thumb cluster, but it looks nicer and usable too.By “Maltron-like thumb cluster” you mean the one the Ergodox currently has? Or you mean something on a fully sculptured keyboard like a Maltron?
Use 1x1 keys for outer pinkie column ... make the whole keyboard a bit smallerI did some measurements on my modified ErgoDox and tests in QCad... and I think that your suggestions would work and still with support for 1.5u wide keys.
By “Maltron-like thumb cluster” you mean the one the Ergodox currently has? Or you mean something on a fully sculptured keyboard like a Maltron?8 key thumb cluster like on contoured Maltron. The thumb cluster itself does not need sculpturing (a planer PCB is ok) but it needs height difference and some tilt. That means it cannot be on the same planar PCB as the main keywell. If all the switches are in the same plane then one can compensate with different keycaps a bit but I do not know whether it would be enough.
My reasoning for 1x1 keys for pinkies is that the more far away from home location is the bigger it should be. All the pinkie keys are not far away to justify bigger size. Moreover notice that the top outer pinkie key is 1x1 and the rest are 1x1.5. That does not make sense. If you can hit well enough the outer top 1x1 key then you definitely can hit the nearer ones.The reason to leave 1.5u keys on there is that that’s how the original Ergodox does it. The reason to make the top outer key a 1u key is so that it can use a 5th row DCS keycap (which are not available in 1.5u size).
I'm currently using an 80key layout—with my rather small hands. I've used a normal 76key ErgoDox before.
1x keys under V and M are easy to access (assigned to AltGr), the outer ones next to them (under C and ,) are okay as well (assigned to an extra layer in firmware). It's a pity there's a gap under the B and N keys, it's truly the biggest problem for me.
I'm not sure about the increased column stagger. I think I'd have to try it before I could say one way or another. That said, I like the feel of the existing stagger on the ErgoDox, and I also like the stagger on the TECK. But even a more matrix layout would be better than the standard stagger.On the TECK, are there any keys you find it difficult to reach? For instance, how comfortable is it for you to type the N and B keys (in QWERTY layout; or substitute whatever key your layout puts there)? What about the Alt and AltGr keys? What about - + ` ´ keys? [I'm not trying to critique their layout, I'm just curious how you find it in practice.]
QuoteWith the modified bottom row/arrow cluster, that gap between the left key and the bottom key of the middle finger row, visually, I want to see another key there. I'm not sure if it makes sense, though.Does the similar gap on the TECK bother you? Would you find a use for an extra key stuck in there?
QuoteI think I would be OK with 1u keycaps for the outermost column, but I would still put the shift keys in their normal locations. That's one old habit I can't break -- I couldn't get used to hitting shift with my thumbs, even after a month.How do you feel about using the keys directly to the right/left of the pinky fingers for shift, the way the TECK does it? (Various other keyboards also do this; personally I think it's quite a bit better than the standard shift location, but I think a thumb key is also nice for shift.)
...
Personally I think shift keys immediately next to the pinky "home row" position work pretty well, even if they're just 1x1 keys.
QuoteI think the closest thumb key to the bottom row should be angled slightly, again.Just for the visual appearance, or to get it slightly closer to the hand, or..? Would you leave a gap in the top 2 thumb keys? (Or just take those out entirely?) Care to sketch how you'd do it?
QuoteI actually prefer my keycaps to be all the same height/plane, like SA Row 3.Is this for aesthetic reasons, or because you want to use a non-QWERTY layout, or because you like spherical tops, or...? Is it mainly the different angles at the top that bother you, or the different heights?
Have you ever tried using a column-stagger board with a greater-than-usual height step for the top rows? (Note, my proposed profile here is DCS but with row 3 basically skipped, so that the QWER and 1234 rows are noticeably taller than usual for OEM/cherry/Alps/DCS profiles compared to the height of the ASDF and ZXCV rows.) Speaking only for myself, I've been trying this out on both standard layout and column-stagger keyboards for the last week, and I really like it.
[Obviously it would be quite possible to use this layout with whatever keycaps you wanted; but I think the sculpturing is helpful.]
1x keys under V and M are easy to access (assigned to AltGr), the outer ones next to them (under C and ,) are okay as well (assigned to an extra layer in firmware). It's a pity there's a gap under the B and N keys, it's truly the biggest problem for me.
Those triangle gaps between the keys are where I rest my thumbs. There was some discussion about the need for the Kinesis to place the thumb clusters lower (like the Maltron). Those gaps on the ergodox are my solution to that. On the left and right, I have the keys below CV and M< assigned to text navigation, text scrolling, and mouse wheel functions (via auto hot key) in order to navigate and edit technical documents. Also for AltGr as a further modifier. I tap them with the edge of my thumb and otherwise leave the thumbs resting lower in those gaps (you can even make a deeper gap / or "thumb well" between the keys by removing the top layer of the case). We all have personal ergonomic preferences and needs. It's nice that the dox can be hacked to accommodate those preferences.
1. Use the programmability and layers to your advantage; don't repeat old problems by overloading certain digits (the thumbs) with too many keys and lots of stretching;Well (1) the thumbs are the strongest and most agile digits we have, and currently keyboards give them 1-3 keys for both thumbs (depending on how you count); with the Ergodox there are instead 2-4 reachable keys for each thumb, plus several unreachable keys; by contrast the right pinky alone gets 10+ keys on a standard keyboard. I’m just proposing giving each thumb 4 reachable keys (and leaving the two harder-to-reach keys mainly as an homage to the original Ergodox design)
2. Do-able: Reconfigure the hardware so the inner column has three 1u keys vertically, thereby moving the home position inboard and closer to the existing thumb clusters;
IME, the Ergodox is a great improvement on a standard layout ergonomically; and also in terms of programmability -- which also helps with ergonomics, since it allows various functions to be accessed by staying near the home row and shifting through the layers rather than over-stretching the fingers (or in this case, the thumbs). I could never touch-type the top row (numbers / symbols / fn keys) on a standard layout, but the non-staggered ergodox layout is much more intuitive (your brain may vary) and now I'm pretty good.Absolutely! A column-staggered keyboard with sufficient tilt/turn/separation between hands is a nice improvement over a standard keyboard.
The various mods to the thumb clusters shown above seem to exacerbate the need to stretch the thumbs. Thumbs and associated tendons are not immune to stress from repeated stretching, and the layouts above place disproportionate emphasis on the thumbs and the need to stretch in a wide arc rather than a quick shift-and-tap with the present layout.Hmm, I’m skeptical of that: I put the original Ergodox layout in blue lines underneath the proposed alternative layouts to show how the revised designs make all of the thumb keys closer and easier to reach than on the original. There should be *less* need for thumb stretching. (There’s nothing that precludes you from moving your hand to press the thumb keys in the alternate design.)
Those triangle gaps between the keys are where I rest my thumbs.You can always just disable the key in that position and/or replace the switch with something super heavy so that resting your thumb on it doesn’t actuate anything. Or just rip that key out entirely. ;)
I think the prior designs were a little better.As in you like this type – (http://i.imgur.com/oTtewYU.png) – better than this type – (http://i.imgur.com/LaQvWSV.png)??
I feel the thumb cluster is perfect AS IS..Cool. That’s helpful feedback. So if you could make any arbitrary change to the Ergodox thumb section, you’d leave it precisely the way it is? What about other parts of the design?
Looks worse to me. Making thumb keys wider only stretches the thumb cluster which makes the side keys more far away or removes them completely. It is not a problem to position thumb precisely in horizontal direction. It can be different in vertical direction because of different thumb lengths.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/LaQvWSV.png)
It is not a problem to position thumb precisely in horizontal direction. It can be different in vertical direction because of different thumb lengths.I’ve definitely heard folks around here disputing that, explaining that they move their hands around as they type, and happily press the spacebar wherever their thumbs happen to be at the moment. (Something relatively easy when the spacebar is 7+ units long.)
I feel the thumb cluster is perfect AS IS..Cool. That’s helpful feedback. So if you could make any arbitrary change to the Ergodox thumb section, you’d leave it precisely the way it is? What about other parts of the design?
I suspect the original design will be popular for a long time in the future, even if we can convince someone to produce kits of an alternative design.
I don't see the point of making minor changes to the ErgoDox layout, because it breaks compatibility with ErgoDox keycap sets and cases.Well, the Ergodox has existed for ~2.5 years, and its popularity grown substantially in popularity in the last year. If no other similar keyboards come out / no changes are made to it, it’ll presumably continue to be quite popular. However, in my opinion the Ergodox design is, to some extent, a half-baked prototype, with some obvious flaws.
I'd rather focus on Axios; it's modular after all.Personally I think the Axios is on totally the wrong track, and also is going to have considerable difficulty with manufacturing and probably take at least another 8–12 months to have a shipping product considering how much they’re trying to bite off for v1 (but maybe they’ve made more progress than shown so far on geekhack and can go faster, we’ll see). Fortunately for everyone, there’s a lot of choice now, and hopefully even more in the future, with the Matias ErgoPro, the keyboard.io, etc.
I don't see the point of making minor changes to the ErgoDox layout, because it breaks compatibility with ErgoDox keycap sets and cases.
I'd rather focus on Axios; it's modular after all.
Let's be specific, WHO will manufacture and distribute it? Because it took about two years to get ErgoDox from an overpriced DIY kit to at least a readily-available DIY kit with optional assembly, and that's mostly thanks to what some people in the community do in their free time. It's a problem similar to preinstalls on desktops.
I have nothing against technical masturbation, but it's better to be clear whether it is the case, or not.
Speaking of keycaps, I'm quite excited about GH36, because about a half of it can be harvested from a G80-11900—no dealing with cheap-ass DCS/DSA and absolutely no Matias/keyboard.io vendor lock-in.
Let's be specific, WHO will manufacture and distribute it? Because it took about two years to get ErgoDox from an overpriced DIY kit to at least a readily-available DIY kit with optional assembly, and that's mostly thanks to what some people in the community do in their free time. It's a problem similar to preinstalls on desktops.Well, for example, I think if the design seems better (especially if it seems like people would prefer it given the option), then it should be possible to convince MassDrop to distribute it. I’ve talked to them about other ergonomic keyboard ideas in the past, and they seem pretty receptive to trying new things.
They don't even have the updated normal PCB design yet.Let's be specific, WHO will manufacture and distribute it? Because it took about two years to get ErgoDox from an overpriced DIY kit to at least a readily-available DIY kit with optional assembly, and that's mostly thanks to what some people in the community do in their free time. It's a problem similar to preinstalls on desktops.Well, for example, I think if the design seems better (especially if it seems like people would prefer it given the option), then it should be possible to convince MassDrop to distribute it. I’ve talked to them about other ergonomic keyboard ideas in the past, and they seem pretty receptive to trying new things.
Also, these angles and bigger thumb keys look like made for typing with resting wrists.I can’t parse this. But anyway, I don’t think palm rests are at all necessary, but might be helpful for certain amounts of tenting.
They don't even have the updated normal PCB design yet.What’s that? Updated by who, when, how? Does it have some substantial advantage compared to the previous one?
How would you press the bigger thumb keys? With joints, or fingertips?Also, these angles and bigger thumb keys look like made for typing with resting wrists.I can’t parse this. But anyway, I don’t think palm rests are at all necessary, but might be helpful for certain amounts of tenting.
Someone has forked the PCB design, fixed some technical stuff and added support for backlighting (which is something many people want, although I don't really get it). MD supposedly worked with him on pushing it to actual users... well, that was many months ago.They don't even have the updated normal PCB design yet.What’s that? Updated by who, when, how? Does it have some substantial advantage compared to the previous one?
That doesn’t really prove anything. They have a very small staff, not including anyone directly doing keyboard engineering, and also not including anyone compulsively reading geekhack. Have you tried reaching out to them about this updated PCB design?
this could work. Call it the ergodox 2.0Let's be specific, WHO will manufacture and distribute it? Because it took about two years to get ErgoDox from an overpriced DIY kit to at least a readily-available DIY kit with optional assembly, and that's mostly thanks to what some people in the community do in their free time. It's a problem similar to preinstalls on desktops.Well, for example, I think if the design seems better (especially if it seems like people would prefer it given the option), then it should be possible to convince MassDrop to distribute it. I’ve talked to them about other ergonomic keyboard ideas in the past, and they seem pretty receptive to trying new things.
even worse, they are not even using the most updated official PCB from the ergodox website! It has support for PCB mount stabs. The leeku clone PCB that MK has uses that one.Someone has forked the PCB design, fixed some technical stuff and added support for backlighting (which is something many people want, although I don't really get it). MD supposedly worked with him on pushing it to actual users... well, that was many months ago.They don't even have the updated normal PCB design yet.What’s that? Updated by who, when, how? Does it have some substantial advantage compared to the previous one?
That doesn’t really prove anything. They have a very small staff, not including anyone directly doing keyboard engineering, and also not including anyone compulsively reading geekhack. Have you tried reaching out to them about this updated PCB design?
The fundamental problem with all of these thumb clusters IMO is that they're on the same plane as the finger keys, when the thumb articulates in a plane 90 degrees to the rest of the fingers. The solution is to turn the thumb cluster vertical so that the thumb is pressing buttons by curling inward, like the rest of the fingers do.This is how Oobly’s DIY keyboard is set up, but personally I’m convinced it’s suboptimal design. A completely flat half is also suboptimal, in a different way. I’m not convinced that either is especially better than the other. I think the Maltron is better than either one (but very expensive to mass produce), and I think there are alternative designs that would be better still (but would again be difficult to mass produce).
The thumb can move *forward* just like other fingers though, i.e. not lying flat on the keycap, or the "squeezing" motion can happen just like when clenching ones fist.I don’t understand what you mean. (Can you explain either in technical anatomy terms, or draw a picture, or something?) Which direction is “forward” in this context?
However, the major issue is that many proposed changes require redesign of the PCB and case.That’s correct. If we can come up with a design that people like, I’m happy to design a lister-style case, and I’m quite confident I can convince someone to help out with the PCB. Making a PCB takes work, but it’s relatively straightforward work, without too many design decisions. Figuring out the design to make is the harder part to get right.
Does anyone willing to take the job?
I have no idea what the optimal design would be, however, at least to me, the major issue is not the thumb cluster, but the pinky finger.You’ll notice that some of my mockups have the pinky columns shifted down a bit compared to the current design. The optimal spot is probably almost a full key below the ring finger column, but I’ve heard from at least two people who didn’t like quite so much stagger, and I wanted to stay relatively close to the original Ergodox design, so I only shifted it down by a little bit.
The problem is that with the current layout (qwerty), my left pinky is too heavily loaded. There are two approaches to solve my problem, one is to redesign the layout, but I would need some to retrain my finger and this would be a long process. I don't have time for the time being. The second means is to adjust the staggering of the pinky column, because I use the '1', 'q', 'a', 'z' keys a lot, yet to reach '1' and 'q', the left pinky finger need larger movements. Thus lower the pinky column can shorten the moving distance of the pinky.
To understand why requires thinking about hand and thumb anatomy. When you make a squeezing motion with your thumb in toward your palm, you mainly flex the metacarpophalangeal joint (that is, the second joint from the fingertip).
...there are alternative designs that would be better still ...If you do some detailed study of what positions and motions of your thumb have the best strength and agility, I think you’ll find that pressing roughly downward (like the motion you’d use on a standard keyboard spacebar) is quite a bit stronger than the squeezing motion you’d use on your proposed setup. Finally, the squeezing motion can’t benefit from some slight assist from a rotating wrist that you sometimes get with a downward-ish press.
Smaller keycaps, more closely together (vertically) might solve the problem. We will get away with smaller keycaps, since our pinky tips are smaller; and it givces the possibility to put them closer together. A problem is though: are there smaller keycaps on the market for Cherry MX switches? And is it possible tou mount the switches closer together? [bold added]Not really, no.
I’m happy to design a lister-style case, and I’m quite confident I can convince someone to help out with the PCB.I don't feel ready to lead the PCB design, but I would be willing to proof-read Kicad and QCad files. (and suggest improvements, of course... )
I think we should look at the Japanese M-system keyboards for how big the staggering should be. Who has one that we could measure?QuoteI have no idea what the optimal design would be, however, at least to me, the major issue is not the thumb cluster, but the pinky finger.You’ll notice that some of my mockups have the pinky columns shifted down a bit compared to the current design.
Even better would be to have all the pinky keys raised up higher than the other rowsYou could lift them a little bit using different keycaps, but that will give you only a very small difference.
A problem is though: are there smaller keycaps on the market for Cherry MX switches? And is it possible tou mount the switches closer together?1: Not really. 2: You could cut away portion of the skirt on each keycap and mount the switches closer together, but then more of the switch would be visible.
This thread talks a little bit about smaller key caps.Thanks. Still, bringing the keys closer together is hard (without using different switches, like Alps etc).
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61786.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61786.0)
suka found, in a way, a nice solution for "raising the key caps of the pinky row". If you look hereThis is nice for making a one-off DIY keyboard that is very small and looks pretty, but it’s both ergonomically sub-optimal (if anything the pinky keys should be oriented so they angle very slightly the other way – while still being raised up – since that’s the direction the pinkies actually move) and also very difficult to mass produce.Show Image(http://deskthority.net/resources/image/8457)you see a curved board. Compared to a flat tented board, the pinkies are raised (farther away from the surface of the earth, so to speak)
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ewGlpke.jpg)
Why did you choose the staggered number row? It seems to me that keeping them in their corresponding columns would keep everything tighter, be more consistent with conventional placement, avoid gaps between them (unless you use larger caps which would be difficult to find), and could allow room for an additional key per side in the same footprint, if desired.This way the number row keys are extremely easy to find and impossible to make mistakes on. They pretty much follow the natural shape of the hand if you just open your fingers out; if they were all tightly packed, then most fingers would end up just slightly off of a key when you open your hand out.
This thread talks about fixing the thumb section, but all the proposed designs ruin the bottom row (some of us actually like the kinesis advantage style arrow keys).Well personally I think the row two rows below the home row is hard enough to reach that I’m not going to use those keys for anything either way, so I couldn’t care less what happens to it (at least, for the keys not within reach of the thumb). However, of the people I’ve asked about it, the majority seem to appreciate arrow keys in an inverted T or diamond shape. I think this is just one of those things that folks are going to disagree about.
Anyway my main point is that this thread is about the thumb area, but has strayed into other areas of the keyboard that aren't really problematic :-)Well, personally I don’t like the bottom row, right-hand side, or amounts of column stagger on the Ergodox, either. It’s just that the thumb section is the most obviously flawed (IMO).
My opinion on the thumb clusters is to simply bring them closer to the hands. I had posted these photos on the original ErgoDox thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0) as there are 2 possibilities for bringing them closer, one involves moving them inwards and down, and the other inwards but shrinking the innermost column bottom key to 1x so it fits.Have you tried either of those out on your own hands, e.g. on a paper mockup? I find that the Ergodox thumb keys are already closer to the body than ideal (i.e. downward along the "y axis"; at least for someone with small to medium hands), but both of your alternative versions are moving them even closer.
TBH, the ErgoDox would be absolutely fantastic for me if the thumb clusters were just a small distance closer. [...] Also, I think at the very least I'd probably want a 2x space bar on the right side.These two goals are impossible to simultaneously satisfy in a simple way. The corners of the primary thumb key and the corner index finger keys (N/B in QWERTY) coincide. If you start moving the thumb keys up and in, you have to make them smaller or they collide with those finger keys.
If you relax the 2x1 size constraint though, then this kind of thing would be possible:Now make the inner column keys all 1x1 and that moves their bottom border a little bit up and then you can also move the top two thumb cluster keys more to the right ... and you will have it almost like on Katy ;DShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/GOZtaqA.png)
TBH, the ErgoDox would be absolutely fantastic for me if the thumb clusters were just a small distance closer. [...] Also, I think at the very least I'd probably want a 2x space bar on the right side.These two goals are impossible to simultaneously satisfy in a simple way. The corners of the primary thumb key and the corner index finger keys (N/B in QWERTY) coincide. If you start moving the thumb keys up and in, you have to make them smaller or they collide with those finger keys.
If you relax the 2x1 size constraint though, then this kind of thing would be possible:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/GOZtaqA.png)
For the folks who don’t like the spread-apart top row: don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. I find these keys now very easy to target, noticeably easier than the top row on an Ergodox, because they follow the natural spread of the extended fingers.Just my opinion about this.
My concerns are more visual. As it is, it reminds me of a mouth badly in need of orthodontic work, and with the staggered columns a simple 1.25 cap fix would still leave small square cavities in it.Yep, it would be possible to put 1.25 caps in there (and for that reason it might even be worth scooting the other index finger cap over by an extra .25u to make that uniformly possible, or scooting both index finger keys closer by .125u so that if the other three get 1.25u keycaps there will be no gaps), and I think that sounds like a generally reasonable idea.
Will all of the components fit within the footprint shown?What do you mean? Like, can a PCB be made within that footprint? Sure. An ARM chip that will drive a keyboard is a square less than half an inch on a side (like .35–.4"?), so it will fit pretty much anywhere.
I'm sorry, I forgot to clarify (been on my honeymoon).Aha. You’d probably like Matias’s new 2.5x1.5 spacebar keycaps.
When I said 2x1 spacebar, I meant horizontal. Having some lateral distance available for the space bar is probably the most important
One possible embedded numpad layout, which stays fairly close to the standard numpad.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/P1hcF47.png)
What do you mean assuming that the angles will fit? I built a physical copy of this and wired it up. I like it much better than the Ergodox, at least for my own size/shape hands (fairly medium sized).One possible embedded numpad layout, which stays fairly close to the standard numpad.You guys are just asssuming that those angles for the thumb key will fit..Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/P1hcF47.png)
It'd be better if that piece is horizontal.
I really like your Mini version. So much, that I'm volunteering to be your guinea pig :-) In other words, I like to build it and share my thoughts. What are the keycaps in your pics? Are those the profile you recommend?The (Alps mount) keycaps in my pics come from a Canon typewriter. They are maybe halfway between Signature Plastics’ SS and DSS profiles.
How reachable are the upper thumb keys (ESC and = in Reply #97)?Very easy to reach, provided that the keycaps are sufficiently tall. They need to be tall enough compared to the other thumb keys so that when you press one all the way down your thumb doesn’t touch the key below. One thing that would work would be to use DSA profile for the lower thumb keys and SA (not sure which row is best) for those two keys. Alternately DCS row 5 works pretty well for these.
What use do you envision for the thumb keys: modifiers that need to be held down (like ctrl, alt, or layer shifts) or rather "normal keys" like the ESC and = keys [yes I know this is in the numbers layer] ?I can imagine this keyboard being used in several different ways, depending on personal preference. I’ll try to give some specific layout ideas in the near future.
Related: what would be the best switches? 'hold down' keys may be better served with linear switches, right? reds? blacks? How about reds or blacks for all thumb keys and blues for the rest ?Personally I’m not a big fan of Cherry MX, but I’d use whatever switches you like. My little prototype is Matias clicky switches, but I just used those because I had a handy bag of them and they were pretty cheap so I don’t mind if I break some.
Slightly off topic: My ideal would be a completely wireless setup. The easiest & safest may be: each half having it's own controller plus a (low energy) connection, be it wifi or Bluetooth (LE). This combined with a receiver that contains the "brains". Preferably small, the size of a USB-drive). This means 3 things to transport (2 halves + USB receiver).I wouldn’t recommend this for a prototype, but sounds like a great idea for someone to play with. Maybe HaaTa’s firmware could be tweaked to support such a setup.
I think you are changing too much. Do the thumb clusters, fix the bugs and add some options.Well, for example, I think the current column stagger on the Ergodox is a significant design flaw. Increasing the amount of column stagger allows the hand to be positioned at a much straighter angle to the columns, and brings the thumb keys much closer to the natural resting position of the thumb.
Well, for example, I think the current column stagger on the Ergodox is a significant design flaw.
Actually the [Ergodox] stagger is not too bad. If anything I would lower the pinky columns a bit. I disagree with designs showing a very pronounced stagger because while the middle finger is longer when extended, when you curl your fingers to hit the bottom rows, the fingers all come to very similar positions. You need to take into account the finger position for all rows of the keyboard and find a column stagger that is the best compromise.Have you tried it?
but that gets much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.I've been thinking in terms of origami recently, particularly curved folds.
- any hints on where to find some DCS row 1,2,4,5 profile thick PTB blank keys? (Yes, I know the All Keycaps Site List (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45672.0))DCS keycaps can be ordered from signature plastics. This is expensive in small batches, but becomes still-expensive-but-not-world-ending at larger order sizes.
- or would an 'OEM profile' do as well?It might, try it out! I don’t have any OEM profile keycaps with an extra-tall function row, but I do believe they exist. (Though at that point those caps are getting really tall and you’ll probably get some bonus wobble.)
- lastly: if you would mount the switches stepped and at an angle, you could use uniform keys, right? Like, DSA.I would mount them stepped but not at an angle (or a bit of angle might help for the bottom row). The angled tops are not crucial if you can add your own arbitrary height step. But yeah, that’s much more difficult and expensive to produce, especially at scale.
Have you considered making the pinky column a few cm(s) lower [...] For me the two biggest changes that I would make to my ergodox is, have a closer thumb cluster of buttons, which you've implemented; and second, have a lowered pinky column cluster than the ring fingers.This prototype had a very aggressively shifted pinky column, which I quite liked, but got feedback from 3 other people who tried it that the pinky column was shifted too much:
Looking at your mockups I noticed the columns next to the index fingers are of same stagger positions, such as the T G B keys on the left hand; do you think a very small adjustment to have it lowered might be beneficial? I think that due to the natural lateral movements of the index fingers to reach other keys outside of its column it should be slightly lowered.Personally I find reaching diagonally sideways-and-upward to be a much easier motion than diagonally sideways-and-downward. Note that with the more aggressive stagger for the middle finger and pinky columns (compared to the ergodox), the hand will naturally fit at a straighter angle relative to the columns, making the direction of index finger motion a bit different than it would be on the ergodox.
QWERTY or even Dvoark are not very ergonomic.Absolutely, it makes sense to design a new letter map to go along with a new physical layout, but if one of my design constraints here is to make something that’s a spiritual successor to the Ergodox, I think it’s a bad idea to make it impossible to put QWERTY on it, since it’s entirely reasonable for people to want to move the physical keys but not totally invalidate their muscle memory.
I think layout is secondary to the physical arrangement.
My only input is that the curved/arced/fanned thumb cluster would work much better, aesthetically, with arc-segmented (think cheese wedge) key caps.I totally agree. Know anyone who sells those? :P
mkawa can probably print them if you provide a modelBoth of these are going to suck compared to injection molded parts.
... and shapeaways can definitely print them
Up front costs for tooling would be understandably highI’m guessing at least $500, maybe substantially more. But it probably depends on who’s making the tooling.
I think it's $45 for a new legend, so your estimate is probably close. You'd also need a fairly precise 3D CAD drawing of your cap.Up front costs for tooling would be understandably highI’m guessing at least $500, maybe substantially more. But it probably depends on who’s making the tooling.
If it is only in the range of $500 - $1000 then it does not sound bad at all. A group buy should handle that.Up front costs for tooling would be understandably highI’m guessing at least $500, maybe substantially more. But it probably depends on who’s making the tooling.
It would be possible to CNC mill acceptable-quality keycaps out of wood or plastic, but that’s way too expensive and time consuming to scale to more than a handful of units.Hmm, would CNC milled wood be stronger than 3d printed plastic for small things like keycaps? It looks to me that such a small pieces would like to break along growth rings. I have seen some keycpas made from wood but I did not notice any information about their longevity.
It would be possible to CNC mill acceptable-quality keycaps out of wood or plastic, but that�s way too expensive and time consuming to scale to more than a handful of units.Hmm, would CNC milled wood be stronger than 3d printed plastic for small things like keycaps? It looks to me that such a small pieces would like to break along growth rings. I have seen some keycpas made from wood but I did not notice any information about their longevity.
CNC milled plastic should do OK though.
Hmm, would CNC milled wood be stronger than 3d printed plastic for small things like keycaps? It looks to me that such a small pieces would like to break along growth rings. I have seen some keycpas made from wood but I did not notice any information about their longevity.Depends on the type of wood. Woods have a huge variety in material properties.
I was only surprised the price estimate is the range of low thousands since there was some documentary about LEGO on Discovery and they claimed few millions for tooling for a new brick shape.Tooling costs have a pretty big variation and I’m no expert. The kind of tooling I’m thinking of is a small number of molds for making just one keycap shape, milled out of aluminum, for use on a small-scale injection molding machine. Still, I’m really not sure what tooling would cost. I was putting $500 as a very very low lower bound, in an attempt to point out that even at that price it wouldn’t be worth it without like 100 people who care more enough about keycap aesthetics to spend extra on it (and yet would still not mind having a keyboard with various other odd alignments and gaps). It’s quite plausible that even the cheapest tooling would cost several thousand dollars. You’d have to make a CAD file and shop it around to shops in China to figure out what the actual lower-bound price is.
The woods I have experience with must be some crappy cheap types.At the tolerances LEGO is working with, and the fact that they replace the molds after a certain number of production runs, that figure doesn't surprise me. This could be a few steps less precise and still fit neatly on an MX stem. But we're really just guessing, honestly.
It is probably better to forget about special keycap shapes for this keyboard if tooling can go above $1000 and more.
Or even better, you can do a poll how much more people are willing to pay for thumb keycaps which do not leave gaps, i.e. keycaps which do not increase ergonomic but improve visual appeal.
I was only surprised the price estimate is the range of low thousands since there was some documentary about LEGO on Discovery and they claimed few millions for tooling for a new brick shape.
The woods I have experience with must be some crappy cheap types.Just because a wood doesn’t have extremely fine grain, or isn’t absurdly hard, doesn’t mean it’s “crappy”. Different woods are good for different things. I wouldn’t try to make a model airplane out of ebony, I wouldn’t try to make a baseball bat out of balsa wood, and I wouldn’t try to make a keycap out of pine.
Jacobolus, that document is interesting but unfortunately it is geared towards lumberingSure, that chart is only really talking about specific gravity. My point is just that there’s a huge variation from one type of wood to another. There’s similar variation in many other properties, including tensile and compressive strength with and against the grain, etc.
jacobolus,
What do you think of this layout. This adds a space for a directional keypad, with the loss of only one non alphanumeric key. If you type in QWERTY, this would be the right hand "/ ?", if you type in Dvorak it would the left hand "; :". If you didn't want to add directional, it would still work without it. I wasn't a big fan of the staggered number keys, so I straightened those out. The thumb section is perfect with your new layout. The two 1.5U left most thumb bars, could be 2U (The 2U felt slightly more comfortable against my thumb), with the two 1.5U bars to the left of the home row moved up to make room for the 1U on top of the thumb bars. The pinky 1.5U bars are replaced with 1U, but they would probably be just as good with 1.5, as before. If it is possible, the teensy/ microcontroller could be moved from the top, to a vertical position in the top left corner. Then, the PCB could be made smaller, and a potential to plug the USB cable directly into the teensy. Comments?
(Attachment Link)
What do you think of this layout.
If it is possible, the teensy/ microcontroller could be moved from the top, to a vertical position in the top left corner. Then, the PCB could be made smaller, and a potential to plug the USB cable directly into the teensy.If this makes it to production it would be an ARM chip directly on the board, and they’re so small they can fit essentially anywhere. No need to actively worry about where to fit it until we actually start designing a PCB.
If this makes it to production it would be an ARM chip directly on the board, and they’re so small they can fit essentially anywhere. No need to actively worry about where to fit it until we actually start designing a PCB.
ARM? I thought it would be Teensy/Arduino like most customs. That way we can reuse most of the firmware source code (and forks) we already have.HaaTa’s firmware works on ARM. ARM chips are just as cheap (or even slightly cheaper), just as small, and much more powerful, and there’s a lot more work going into the ARM world these days. I think it makes more sense as a way forward in the future.
Made the top left index finger key further to reach. I’m -1 on thatI agree with you here, I think reach in your original version, outweighs having bulkier keys.
Reduced the column stagger on the pinky column. I’m -1 on thatI also agree here, the pinky column stagger was ok, and put noticeably less strain on my pinky overall throughout hand movements.
Added dedicated arrows. Personally I don’t have need for dedicated arrows, so I’m +0 on that.Arrow keys definitely arn't for everyone. From your previous designs, it looks like you tried to incorporate a directional pad similiar to the one on the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard. I think that style of directional pad is too close to where the wrist sits, and could be uncomfortable for some users. My version was there to be optional (as it used one of the primary pink keys), but integrated enough, so it would be out of the way of the wrist.
Switched the corner pinky key from 1.5u to 1u. I’m -0 on that. I think the previous one is pretty good for a shift or other modifier key.I agree, bring back the 1.5U, in fact bring back a whole row of 1.5U. Going back to the original ergodox design, one part I really like is the chunky 1.5U rightmost keys (especially on my left hand, for ctrl, shift, and escape). Although, they are not as easy to reach due to them being in pinky range, they are large enough to side palm, and I like to move my entire hand and take my index or middle finger and hold them down for some shortcuts. This is a personal preference, and though these keys could be mapped to the thumb area. I really enjoy them. I would like to see how otherwise view this row of keys.
Put the number row into alignment with the columns. Personally I think this is worse functionally, but possibly better aesthetically (though there are so many gaps and funny shapes on this keyboard that I don’t think it’s a big deal. I’m -0.5 on that change.Here is a picture of the columns in the staggered layout, as you have them now.
You’ve got me: my personal preference is to actually not use those for numbers, but for some other purpose (with numbers on a layer near the home row, e.g. in a numpad-type layout). Therefore if the “6” key is harder to reach it’s not too big a deal, I can put something uncommon there. I still think they work okay for numbers though. That 6 is still *much* closer than on a standard keyboard (at least half a key, given the difference in hand orientation). As for the “0”, I don’t think pushing it outward is too big a problem if you’re pressing it with a pinky. If you wanted to press it with your ring finger, then it would make some sense to bring it tightly in.QuotePut the number row into alignment with the columns. Personally I think this is worse functionally, but possibly better aesthetically (though there are so many gaps and funny shapes on this keyboard that I don’t think it’s a big deal. I’m -0.5 on that change.Here is a picture of the columns in the staggered layout, as you have them now. Testing each key for comfort, 7, 8 and 9 all felt quite comfortable. Looking at the natural curve of my hand, I instantly could tell why. As my fingers extend they naturally spread apart, and land almost perfectly with the the locations of the 7, 8 and 9 staggered keys. However, when it came to the 6 and 0, each was somewhat painful (The 6 more than the 0).
You’ve got me: my personal preference is to actually not use those for numbers, but for some other purpose (with numbers on a layer near the home row, e.g. in a numpad-type layout). Therefore if the “6” key is harder to reach it’s not too big a deal, I can put something uncommon there. I still think they work okay for numbers though. That 6 is still *much* closer than on a standard keyboard (at least half a key, given the difference in hand orientation). As for the “0”, I don’t think pushing it outward is too big a problem if you’re pressing it with a pinky. If you wanted to press it with your ring finger, then it would make some sense to bring it tightly in.QuotePut the number row into alignment with the columns. Personally I think this is worse functionally, but possibly better aesthetically (though there are so many gaps and funny shapes on this keyboard that I don’t think it’s a big deal. I’m -0.5 on that change.Here is a picture of the columns in the staggered layout, as you have them now. Testing each key for comfort, 7, 8 and 9 all felt quite comfortable. Looking at the natural curve of my hand, I instantly could tell why. As my fingers extend they naturally spread apart, and land almost perfectly with the the locations of the 7, 8 and 9 staggered keys. However, when it came to the 6 and 0, each was somewhat painful (The 6 more than the 0).
ARM? I thought it would be Teensy/Arduino like most customs. That way we can reuse most of the firmware source code (and forks) we already have.HaaTa’s firmware works on ARM. ARM chips are just as cheap (or even slightly cheaper), just as small, and much more powerful, and there’s a lot more work going into the ARM world these days. I think it makes more sense as a way forward in the future.
Here’s a diagram that might be a bit clearer to compare (but maybe harder to see the layout on top):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/wticyua.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ei1vPVk.png)
In my opinion, the h, n & y keys should be lowered to a height between the ring and pinky columns.Can you explain why? On the couple people’s hands I tested, that makes the N more annoying/harder to reach, while making the Y a bit easier. Not sure the trade-off is really too helpful.
It seems your thumb sections aren't much of a change compared to the ergodox.Yep, the goal is not to be radically different, but clearly a spiritual successor to the Ergodox, just with some tweaks. The difference is instead of 1 key falling slightly too far away for a small-to-medium-sized hand to hit comfortably, now instead you get one key that falls right where the thumb does, plus one more key a bit closer than that. In practice, I’ve found this makes a huge difference for me, and even more for my wife, whose hands are smaller than mine.
I personally would prefer a horizontal 1.5-2.0 space bar key right below the letter nIf you go look at the first page, a number of such layouts were proposed. I tried several of them out on paper and made quick acrylic prototypes of a couple, and wasn't super enthusiastic about them.
I've been thinking about these "one size fits all" ergonomic designs and came to the conclusion that it doesn't work.Well, that goes without saying. To hit everyone requires probably at least 3 distinct sizes, ideally with some keyswitches/keycaps that can be spaced a little closer than the standard ones. But we can do reasonably well for maybe 70% of hand sizes.
As fingers extend naturally the distance between the tips widens so it makes sense to have the finger areas [spread out]Yeah, check out this prototype:
Has anyone tried making a plate with long slots for switches along with spacers to go between them? I might give it a go, shouldn't be expensive to get cut...Some people have tried something like that. I don’t have a link handy, but if I remember I wasn’t too impressed with the mechanical design. Give it a shot though, maybe you can make something work.
Here’s a diagram that might be a bit clearer to compare (but maybe harder to see the layout on top):Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/wticyua.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ei1vPVk.png)
I have to say, I really like this. I hope it gets made some day.
Hey I have been following this thread for a while and was thinking of making some CAD models of your design in this picture here (http://i.imgur.com/173wo6I.png). I was actually thinking of making a pair for myself because I've used Ergodox before but they just felt off somehow. Anyone interested in the models? After I finish them I can post them here.Yes I'm interested. Please post it. Also please include tenting of about 15° though I'd like to have Jacobolus chime in on that as well.
Other than space, backspace, delete and enter, what else usually gets relocated to the thumbs?In my case, it is shifts. It takes about 2 weeks to completely adjust if you go cold turkey (without training).
Now that I have built and used the first functional prototype, I've come back here to reexamine the thumb clusters specifically. I can finally understand benefits of Jacobolus's designs that were incomprehensible to me before.:-)
Prototypes are a great help to understanding. I think people trying to make a new layout should try to first come up with a system where they can iterate on layouts as quickly as possible and test out lots of ideas physically, with their hands.
I've read through many of the first page of this thread, and was inspired to whip up a prototype.Fun!
What I like about this thumb layout it the minimal case that can be printed.Pretty compact.
. I hope once I finish this build I can contribute more to this thread (and the larger keyboard community).
Note that by using the [img] tag (e.g. [img]http://i.imgur.com/5SbhlWJ.jpg[/img]), you can directly embed images in your forum posts:Ah THAT's what those tags do! Thanks.
* With the stagger as you have it now, it’s clear that you intend the hand to still come in at a slight angle to the board. That’s not an unreasonable idea in the context of a flat plate construction where all the keys for separate fingers are at the same vertical height. Personally, I like having the hand angled a bit straighter to the columns, and as a consequence I don’t want any stagger between index finger columns, and I want a more aggressive stagger for the pinky.Interesting. I've never used an ergodox before but I thought the stagger seemed too subtle. I didn't consider the angle of my hand in relation to the board would have informed that subtlety. I guess my thumb arrangement relies on a slight angle (between the hand and columns). Otherwise, my thumb in its natural position would be restricted by the DT keys.
* The top corner keys on both inside and outside need a bit of a lunge to reach, either moving the hand off the home position or rotating the wrist outward. I’d make sure to stick relatively uncommon functions in those positions, and probably nothing that requires a modifier on the same hand.Good point.
* The innermost column keys are going to be slightly tricky to hit accurately (they’d be easier with slightly wider keycaps or at least wider spacing between them, or fewer. But your design is probably a reasonable compromise if you want that many keys.I've used another custom board for several months now with no inside keys. For this project I wanted to include them for the sake of experience. Others have also made the point that wider or taller keys would have been a better choice. It'll have to be one for revision 2.
* I think you might benefit from moving the arrows slightly over to give your thumbs easier access to 2x1 keys, instead of poking over the top of the inside arrow.You're probably right. Though I keep thinking about the potential for a symmetrical key layout. Maybe I could move the thumb keys OUT by 1/4u instead?
* The thumb section isn’t my personal cup of tea, but I think it should work reasonably well. You have 3 keys on each hand which are pretty accessible.I'll see how it goes in testing. In terms of the design, there's room for additional thumb keys if I go for wider inner keys (or just a second inner column of 1u keys).
Overall, definitely better than a standard keyboard. :thumb:Thanks for the extensive feedback, I'll be back when I've used the board for a while.
I’d love to hear your further impressions after you’ve used it for a while.
Wow, I wasn't expecting that! I'll need to improve my grasp of PCB design first though.Quote from: RominRonin. I hope once I finish this build I can contribute more to this thread (and the larger keyboard community).
You so called prototype, when it becomes a fully tested PCB, I guarantee you many people in the community will be interested. I suggest you do a group buy for the PCB when you want to put it into production, because making 1 PCB is often the same price as 3, and only twice more expensive than 10.
You will have an order for 2 sets (4 PCBS) from me alone.
Wow, I wasn't expecting that! I'll need to improve my grasp of PCB design first though.Quote from: RominRonin. I hope once I finish this build I can contribute more to this thread (and the larger keyboard community).
You so called prototype, when it becomes a fully tested PCB, I guarantee you many people in the community will be interested. I suggest you do a group buy for the PCB when you want to put it into production, because making 1 PCB is often the same price as 3, and only twice more expensive than 10.
You will have an order for 2 sets (4 PCBS) from me alone.
Well, for example, I think the current column stagger on the Ergodox is a significant design flaw. Increasing the amount of column stagger allows the hand to be positioned at a much straighter angle to the columns, and brings the thumb keys much closer to the natural resting position of the thumb.
The column stagger in ergodox works well with the hand hand positioned at a slight angle, [...] It is basically the same that I do in a non-column staggered keyboard,Fair enough.
I'm finding some keys harder to reach with the index and pinky fingers in your design, because the hand starts of as more extended.The fingers should not start out extended. They should start out in a neutral position, which is a kind of quarter-circle arc shape, with the distal phalanges at a maybe 70–85° angle to the direction of the forearm, depending on your specific body shape and typing style.
the increased middle finger stagger makes a little more awkward to use an inverted T arrow in a FN layer on keys ESDF.If you want an inverted T (or in this case more like a diamond shape) Use DSCF instead. :-)
At that point I finally realized that I can move the thumb keys anywhere I want (with reason) just by adjusting the stagger!Something like that, yep. It’s even easier if you can adjust the vertical height of the keys in different columns.
I'm not 100% sure if the Tab and F4 keys will be easy to press with the thumb w/o hitting the keys under it,They’re going to be fine, IF you make sure to use extra-tall keycaps. Something like SA or “OEM” profile keys when the rest of the caps are DSA/DCS/Cherry profile, or if you can find some, maybe the extra-tall F-row caps from Cherry or DCS profiles.
When over a key switch will I prefer smaller key caps a little higher up to hit with the tip of my thumb?My preference is to use the side of the whole distal phalanx of the thumb to press the primary thumb keys.
A large 1.75u space bar may not be such a good idea with the problem of hitting it off-center1.75u will be okay without stabilizers (2u really isn’t). I think 1.5u works slightly better though. YMMV.
The Tab key is relatively easy to hit if you float your hand up a bit, but is bad for holdingIt will be totally fine as a modifier/shifter if you use an extra-tall keycap.
+1QuoteI'm not 100% sure if the Tab and F4 keys will be easy to press with the thumb w/o hitting the keys under it,They’re going to be fine, IF you make sure to use extra-tall keycaps. Something like SA or “OEM” profile keys when the rest of the caps are DSA/DCS/Cherry profile, or if you can find some, maybe the extra-tall F-row caps from Cherry or DCS profiles.
It is the neutral position, not completely extended. My middle finger may be more at a 85° angle, but my index and pinky fingers are less angled than that in relation to the forearm. In the ergodox they might be more curled up, maybe. I'm not sure. It might just be how accustomed I'm by the regular keyboard hand position.QuoteI'm finding some keys harder to reach with the index and pinky fingers in your design, because the hand starts of as more extended.The fingers should not start out extended. They should start out in a neutral position, which is a kind of quarter-circle arc shape, with the distal phalanges at a maybe 70–85° angle to the direction of the forearm, depending on your specific body shape and typing style.
If you want an inverted T (or in this case more like a diamond shape) Use DSCF instead. :-)The first suggestion is interesting. That uses an even more radical stagger for the middle finger also.
Or better, use middle and ring fingers as left/right (or right/left, depending on which hand and your preference), and put up/down on the index finger and thumb, respectively.
Your result looks pretty good. If you make a working prototype, let us know how it goes!I already have all the parts for hardwiring it (though I might substitute the teensy by another part coming by mail), minus the case that I need to design. I will make a topic with my project in Making Stuff Together! in the coming weeks.
They’re going to be fine, IF you make sure to use extra-tall keycaps. Something like SA or “OEM” profile keys when the rest of the caps are DSA/DCS/Cherry profile, or if you can find some, maybe the extra-tall F-row caps from Cherry or DCS profiles.I have a OEM set, but shinny thin ABS. But I guess it is usable for the F4 key position. The texture difference might even be a good thing.
The trick seems to be to press that key with the tip of my thumb, so I can still reach the bottom row of the keyboard with the same hand. The tall OEM keycaps I have help a little as they have a wider top. Well, I will see when in actual use.QuoteThe Tab key is relatively easy to hit if you float your hand up a bit, but is bad for holdingIt will be totally fine as a modifier/shifter if you use an extra-tall keycap.
My preference is to use the side of the whole distal phalanx of the thumb to press the primary thumb keys.Ok, so the part before the widest part of the thumb (the knuckle)? I doubt I will ever have the chance to touch a Maltron...
If you ever get the chance, I recommend borrowing a Maltron keyboard for a few days, and trying to understand why they chose their particular position and angle of thumb keys.
1.75u will be okay without stabilizers (2u really isn’t). I think 1.5u works slightly better though. YMMV.
[...]but my index and pinky fingers are less angled than that in relation to the forearm.[...] It might just be how accustomed I'm by the regular keyboard hand position. ¶ Another explanation is that the direction the hand extends helps to reach diagonal keys with the index finger, like the Y.If you put your hand on a standard keyboard with all the fingers in a relaxed position, your fingers will land on e.g. JIO; keys, not JKL; (more realistically, they won’t exactly be centered on the keys, but you get the idea). Moreover, with your wrist not-fully-pronated (i.e. wrist and top of hand not strictly parallel to the keyboard plane, but angled a bit down toward the outside) so that the pinky is resting comfortably, the index finger ends up noticeably more flexed at the first joint (i.e. the joint at the base of the finger, the metacarpophalangeal [MCP] joint) than the other fingers are. This reduces the strength and agility of the finger.
Just asking, is these thread somehow a base for the future ergodox 2 maybe ?Hopefully yes. It’s not something that will happen without a considerable amount more work (mostly organizational/administrative kind of work) though.
how do you guys or the developers of ergodox, take in the information for different hand sizes.The only way to do this is try a prototype keyboard out on a bunch of people, and see what they think.
+1Looking the thumb cluster of Loonie (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74518.msg1851730#msg1851730) and remembering what vvp said made me want to try this stepped and non-curved thumb cluster style. And I quite liked it. I didn't like Loonie's aggressive staggering though, so I replaced that for the Ergodox one. Latter I saw that something similar to this stepped thumb cluster is also used in the 80key Ergodox mod and people who did it seem to like.
Even 3-row thumb clusters work quite well if you are careful about keycap height differences.
(Attachment Link)
I would suggest making all keys on the left (and mirrored on the right) 1.25u. If needed you can let off left/right arrow.Two reasons why I'm not keen on this:
I assume this will be nicer (and more like the ergodox..)
Personally I find 3 keys for each thumb is more than adequate. On my Ergodox I'm only using one of the thumb keys, and two of the bottom row keys as thumb keys. I find most of the thumb keys to be too far to reach comfortably, even though I have very long fingers. I've also attached an extension to the thumb key I use; without this simple hack I probably wouldn't be using my Ergodox now.
(Attachment Link)
I rely on layers and I put my modifier keys along the top row of both hands, so for example, the key that normally is "1" on a standard keyboard is the Windows key, key "2" is Shift, key "3" is Ctrl, key "4" is Alt. The same for the right hand but mirrored. This way both hands have access to all modifiers, and any combination of modifiers can be pressed comfortably with one hand (quite handy for mouse modifiers!).
If you've not gotten over this difference in spacing, YOU WILL, if you keep using the ERgodox..
It only feels odd, because the normal muscle routine to hit the key is different than what it would take with the new spacing..
Separate left and right hand design,who are using this? how do you guys feel about this?
Personally I think this might be good if you spend time and get used to this,
but for combination key, most time need one hand for this, instead of two hands to balance the pressure.
I'm digging this old thread up, because as far as I'm concerned, the Redox keyboard might be a nice solution to fix the Ergodox thumb section:
https://hackaday.io/project/160610-redox-keyboard
Sure, it has fewer thumb buttons, but they're in better places and therefore actually useable.
What do you think?
I'm digging this old thread up, because as far as I'm concerned, the Redox keyboard might be a nice solution to fix the Ergodox thumb section:
https://hackaday.io/project/160610-redox-keyboard
Sure, it has fewer thumb buttons, but they're in better places and therefore actually useable.
What do you think?
For me, the biggest problem of the Ergodox is that there is this huge gap where the space bar should be, i.e. where your thumbs rest naturally. Thus, even to just hit space, you need to move your thumb.
I'm digging this old thread up, because as far as I'm concerned, the Redox keyboard might be a nice solution to fix the Ergodox thumb section:This is pretty good. Definitely better than Ergodox for most hand shapes. But I think it puts the thumb keys a bit too close to the finger keys (e.g. the one under n/m keys). that’s where the spacebar is on a standard keyboard, but it’s not really the ideal spot. I found that it worked best for me to orient 1.25u keys the other way and scoot them a little bit. The second row of thumb keys in each 4-key block is especially a reach (on a standard keyboard, try using your thumbs to press the B key to see how this feels). But if these are used for slightly less common functions and have tall keycaps it’s not too bad (their use of uniform DSA caps is a bad choice; but this is something that anyone could fix by just putting different keycaps on).
https://hackaday.io/project/160610-redox-keyboard
Sure, it has fewer thumb buttons, but they're in better places and therefore actually useable.
What do you think?
The problem is Tenting. If you are not using the keyboard tented @ 55 Degrees, the space bar position requires a slight wrist rotation to hit.
But tented, this is not the case at all, and the position of the space bar feels very natural.
But I think it puts the thumb keys a bit too close to the finger keys (e.g. the one under n/m keys). that’s where the spacebar is on a standard keyboard, but it’s not really the ideal spot. I found that it worked best for me to orient 1.25u keys the other way and scoot them a little bit.
I agree with tp4tissue, tenting/curvature of keys is the ultimate ergonomic factor After moving to a split keyboard.Actually, tp4 claims curved keyboard is worse for speed than two split planar halves.
Hmm, i didn't know that, thank you. I would disagree, if one was trained on each system adequately, shorter finger travel and less strain would make me hypothesy? Spelling? That one could type faster over a longer duration.I agree with tp4tissue, tenting/curvature of keys is the ultimate ergonomic factor After moving to a split keyboard.Actually, tp4 claims curved keyboard is worse for speed than two split planar halves.
I think a curved keyboard should lead to quicker typing as well. I do not completely understands tp4's reasoning. It was something about hand movement and piano players...My guess would be the uniformity of the keys? All on the same plane so force off the press didn't change based on position of the key... But that doesn't seem like it would translate to typing as you can just bottom out and a light and heavy touch result in the same outcome of a key press..... Oh well
What about gaming. Can I enjoy using one (hopefully ergo split) device for everything?
Default WASD position is out with any staggering. With ergo and ortholinear keybs and the left-hand in ESDF position, the pinky can't live and rest easily on shift. So it's not a simple matter of remapping like on a traditional keyboard, where the lateral stagger allows for the shift key to support the left pinky in ESDF. Barely.