Author Topic: Model M Rivet Replacement (Read 26631 times)

ricercar · « **Reply #50 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 15:36:23 »

YAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!

On fifth try with same board. four hammers out of place. I hate this mod.

msiegel · « **Reply #51 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 15:42:57 »

steady now, you can do it!

then never remove the bolts again

skcheng · « **Reply #52 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 16:21:18 »

Quote from: ricercar;171940

YAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!

On fifth try with same board. four hammers out of place. I hate this mod.

Why are the hammers out of place?? Once the sheets and rubber pad go on, it sort of holds everything in place?? Make sure nothing touches the springs as you're reassembling the frame.

bigpook · « **Reply #53 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 16:39:38 »

I had to redo mine three times...

Once you place the hammers, than the membrane and finally the sheets and the back plate. You cannot move, budge, fumble the assembly at all. I kid you not.

I took ripsters advice and got the nuts around the outside first, then a half dozen or so in the middle. Only then did I feel comfortable moving it around.

Nothing blows more than having to take the whole damn thing apart to fix a couple of mis-aligned hammers.

bigpook · « **Reply #54 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 16:41:49 »

Quote from: skcheng;170761

Interesting that you feel no difference. In my case, the board felt more solid, the typing more damped and overall feel much more even. I did have 13 broken rivets before I modified my my Mini. Before this mod, I would compare the Mini to an old basketball court with uneven bounces. Especialy on the right side by the enter key and the numpad. Now it's much tighter. I did screw each nut down fairly tightly I probably have about 3 threads exposed across the entire board.

The only reason I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame. If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.

Congrats on getting it done. The next one will be much easier.

skc

Right, but how many broken rivets did you start with? None of mine were broken. About the only thing I can think of to play with would be to tighten/loosen the nuts to see how it effects behaviour.

ricercar · « **Reply #55 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 16:54:40 »

This is fascinating. My rubber sheet was next to the metal on two out of two of my model M keyboards I've disassembled. I've RTFM again today and the assembly clearly shows the rubber against the hammers. I imagine this helps keep the dang hammers in place.

> I had a tough time with the springs/hammers was due to the crack in my frame.
> If the crack buckled, I would need to disassemble the keyboard and start again.

Yeah. This is my problem.

bigpook · « **Reply #56 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 17:00:59 »

So the hammers were directly against the plastic sheet? wow.

ricercar · « **Reply #57 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 17:11:05 »

Quote from: bigpook;171957

So the hammers were directly against the plastic sheet? wow.

No wonder they won't stay in place, eh? Talk about zero friction...

I'm actually thinking that my notes are more likely to be incorrect than the boards are to have the rubber against the metal. I took the two keyboards apart the same night about a year ago. One with anger. One with tools. That's why i had so many caps to give away when I joined Geekhack.

bigpook · « **Reply #58 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 18:18:53 »

Quote from: ricercar;171962

No wonder they won't stay in place, eh? Talk about zero friction...

Sorry man, but I have to laugh. It's not like its 'easy' with the membrane holding the hammers down(better I suppose), but the plastic? : ) I can only imagine the frustration.
I found just nudging the frame could cause at least one of the hammers to get misaligned...
the end result is worth it though.

bigpook · « **Reply #59 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 18:40:03 »

ricercar, forgot to ask. When you had the hammers up against the sheet and the membrane on the bottom; did it even work?

Just wondering if the hammer hitting the plastic sheet would register a key stroke.

bigpook · « **Reply #60 on:** Tue, 13 April 2010, 19:56:18 »

On another note, I switched back to my other unicomp space saver with the original rivets. After using the 'modded' one for a week or so I can say that the unmodded space saver feels tighter and seems to require a bit more push to get the key to go.

The modded space saver feels a bit lighter overall. I need to take the covers off and look at the nuts and see how much thread is showing.

If anything, the modded keyboard may be somewhat 'adjustable'. I will know more when I tighten/loosen the nuts.

itlnstln · « **Reply #61 on:** Wed, 14 April 2010, 07:04:19 »

I wonder if the modded 'board doesn't allow the plate to flex as much, thus directing more force into the switch activation instead of "bending" the plate.

bigpook · « **Reply #62 on:** Wed, 14 April 2010, 13:21:47 »

Quote from: itlnstln;172048

I wonder if the modded 'board doesn't allow the plate to flex as much, thus directing more force into the switch activation instead of "bending" the plate.

Not sure about flexing the plate.

I think with the nuts on 'loose' the spring isn't loaded as much. Which I think would make for a springier feel.

With the nuts 'tight/tighter' the spring is loaded, making for more resistance on a key press.

I don't think the metal or plastic plate is flexing.

bigpook · « **Reply #63 on:** Wed, 14 April 2010, 18:27:24 »

I took it apart and tightened the screws. I was seeing two threads on most of them (give or take).
It tightens up the board like I expected. Which means to say that it feels like a traditional model m. To me anyways.

I then took it back apart, and loosened all of the inside screws, leaving the perimeter alone.
Not quite flush to the top of the screw.( This is how I did it initially too )

The keys are more lively, just short of jangly almost but not in a bad way. I like the lighter feel.
All in all, I think the difference is plus or minus a thread or so.
None of the above is exact, I am going by eye and by feel.

I have a 1391401 I want to try this out on next...

I still think the mod is non-trivial, but is worth doing as it does change the feel of the keyboard.

ricercar · « **Reply #64 on:** Wed, 14 April 2010, 19:42:41 »

Quote from: bigpook;171982

ricercar, forgot to ask. When you had the hammers up against the sheet and the membrane on the bottom; did it even work?

I haven't hooked up the controller yet. I'll do that only after I get 100% of the keys clicking—in other words, after all the hammers are in place.

ch_123 · « **Reply #65 on:** Sat, 17 April 2010, 11:30:33 »

Quote from: bigpook;171986

On another note, I switched back to my other unicomp space saver with the original rivets. After using the 'modded' one for a week or so I can say that the unmodded space saver feels tighter and seems to require a bit more push to get the key to go.

The modded space saver feels a bit lighter overall. I need to take the covers off and look at the nuts and see how much thread is showing.

If anything, the modded keyboard may be somewhat 'adjustable'. I will know more when I tighten/loosen the nuts.

As far as I understand, the membrane has two layers to it - the bottom one is the contact, and the top one is the conductive pad. So you'd need to press down on it to get it to actuate... Simply resting the hammer on it will accomplish nothing.

bigpook · « **Reply #66 on:** Sat, 17 April 2010, 12:01:32 »

I had only one membrane and that was the top layer, closest to the hammers, followed by the plastic sheets. The plastic sheets rest directly against the bottom metal plate.

There is some leeway when tightening the screws. I got them as tight as 2 or so threads showing. Any more tightening would set the screw to rotate.
Currently, the nuts are just about flush with the screw, which isn't a whole lot, but I felt the difference.
I didn't count all of the screws on the unicomp space saver that I used but am thinking you could 'lighten it up' some more by judicious removal of some of the nuts.

pfink · « **Reply #67 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 02:24:34 »

Quote from: ripster;104390

EDIT: I am adding a few pointers after doing 4 of these. You can use this method successfully to fix a broken rivet area WITHOUT removing each and every rivet with a chisel. On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening. There is a remote danger of plastic dust making it's way in between the membranes but hasn't happened to me and when examining sheets after a test I didn't see any.

I just replaced 12 missing rivets on one of my Minis using the above method. It worked out great, thanks for the instructions.

Half-Saint · « **Reply #68 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 05:15:55 »

Surely you mean "drilling a couple of screwholes"? It's either that, or my english sucks

skcheng · « **Reply #69 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 07:10:44 »

Quote from: pfink;177476

I just replaced 12 missing rivets on one of my Minis using the above method. It worked out great, thanks for the instructions.

Go for the whole board!! I'm working on another one today. Can you say, "no longer NIB"

Half-Saint · « **Reply #70 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 07:16:33 »

Why would anyone do this mod on a keyboard with no missing rivets?

skcheng · « **Reply #71 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 07:31:16 »

Quote from: Half-Saint;177490

Why would anyone do this mod on a keyboard with no missing rivets?

It's missing rivets. And even it it wasn't, it would with some use. Take any Model M and pick at the rivets with your fingernail and I'll bet that at least 4 or 5 rivets pop right off.

pfink · « **Reply #72 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 09:28:55 »

Quote from: Half-Saint;177480

Surely you mean "drilling a couple of screwholes"? It's either that, or my english sucks

I can't comment on your English skills but I definitely got more out of this article than just "drilling a couple of screwholes." I wouldn't have known that it was safe to drill without completely disassembling unless I did my own experimenting, so the instructions saved me a good bit of time. Also, he provided specific nut/bolt/drill bit sizes which saved a lot of guesswork.

kishy · « **Reply #73 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 09:33:51 »

(post purpose made null by later reply)

Half-Saint · « **Reply #74 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 09:52:19 »

Quote from: pfink;177513

I can't comment on your English skills but I definitely got more out of this article than just "drilling a couple of screwholes." I wouldn't have known that it was safe to drill without completely disassembling unless I did my own experimenting, so the instructions saved me a good bit of time. Also, he provided specific nut/bolt/drill bit sizes which saved a lot of guesswork.

I wasn't commenting the article. I was only commenting the EDIT that you quoted in your previous post so I didn't deem it neccessary to quote it again.

Anyway, I was referring to the part where it says "On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening." and was just trying to clear up the meaning of "driving a couple of screwholes" as I wasn't quite sure what he meant.

Cheers,
SainT

pfink · « **Reply #75 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 10:03:37 »

Quote from: Half-Saint;177521

I wasn't commenting the article. I was only commenting the EDIT that you quoted in your previous post so I didn't deem it neccessary to quote it again.

Anyway, I was referring to the part where it says "On my 122Key terminal board I did a quick fix on one area with 6 broken rivets by just driving a couple of screwholes, inserting bolts and tightening." and was just trying to clear up the meaning of "driving a couple of screwholes" as I wasn't quite sure what he meant.

Ah, gotcha.

Half-Saint · « **Reply #76 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 10:12:23 »

Alrighty. So, my original question still stands: driving = drilling; in this case?

ricercar · « **Reply #77 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:05:00 »

Quote from: ripster;177532

And now that BigPook has done it (even if he didn't read the instructions fully :biggrin1:) I can safely say ANYONE can do it.

Don't get ahead of yourself. The jury is still out on my rivet repair.

J888www · « **Reply #78 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:41:07 »

I did a mini and I'm short-sighted, some might say "half-blind" :pray2:

Stevie Wonder · « **Reply #79 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 16:46:30 »

Quote from: ricercar;177608

Don't get ahead of yourself. The jury is still out on my rivet repair.

Yo, Ricer (you asian or sumpthin)! This one's easy. Helen Keller can do it an she dead. Sheeeeet.

ricercar · « **Reply #80 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 17:01:06 »

Quote from: Stevie Wonder;177623

Yo, Ricer (you asian or sumpthin)! This one's easy. Helen Keller can do it an she dead. Sheeeeet.

Yo

A ricercar is classical music; nothing to do with pimped asian automobiles.
Rivet repair ain't 'easy' when the plastic's cracked.
Helen Keller couldn't do it even when she was alive. Neither could Stevie Wonder, and he's only mostly dead.

kishy · « **Reply #81 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 17:02:44 »

If only the real Stevie Wonder could see this thread.

ricercar · « **Reply #82 on:** Fri, 30 April 2010, 19:45:21 »

"If only you could see what I've seen with your eyes."
- Roy Batty, Bladerunner

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Author Topic: Model M Rivet Replacement (Read 26631 times)