Author Topic: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.  (Read 3923 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« on: Fri, 08 December 2017, 10:20:30 »
Hello guys,

I've recently run into serious trouble with my Model M keyboard (German 122-key layout; built in January 2015 by Unicomp): Two keys on the numeric keypad (3 and 6) have to be pressed very hard for them to actuate a keystroke. Their tactile feedback is also quite unusual, as if their springs were not attached correctly. Additionally, the left Ctrl key got stuck quite often. So I brought the board to a computer store in the vicinity, where they could not reproduce the stuck Ctrl key (I found out that the key collided with the edge of the upper shell) and were unable to repair the other two keys. Yesterday I got the board back, but suddenly, several keys (3 & 4 on the alphabetic keypad, →, F9,…) stopped delivering any scancodes despite the fact that the guys in the store hadn't even touched them and they felt absolutely normal when typing them.

I opened the upper case shell, cleaned the space between the keys a bit, tried to re-align the screws of the faulty keys, and suddenly, everything worked fine…at least, until I reattached the upper shell: Once I secured it in place and fastened the screws, the keys stopped working again!  :-[ Unplugging and re-plugging the keyboard does not help. Neither does a reboot of the computer. I have to leave upper shell placed loosely. The numeric keys 3 and 6 are now broken, but at least the remainder of the keys now works fine.

Any hints on how I could get rid of this nasty fault? Is it normal that a 3-year-old Model M shows such symptoms? Will I have so send in the keyboard for repair in the U.S.? Thank you.

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 09 December 2017, 10:37:03 »
OK, I've got some (rather bad) news on this topic: After re-attaching the cover, the keys in question stopped working again. :-[ I tried to shake the board a bit, and two things fell out immediately and a third one after a couple of seconds: two black plastic discs (rivets maybe?) and a 1" long, T-shaped plastic part with two screw holes. Possibly this is a support for the heavy base plate.

UPDATE: The plastic T is in fact a support for the cable where it leaves the enclosure. I glued it, and now it stays in place. But I did lose another plastic disc (rivet?) and found out that the plastic sheet with the conductors printed on it has gotten quite loose on the right edge of the assembly. This is exactly where the faulty keys are situated!

May it be that the loose rivets (and the now missing part) are causing a shorting of some of the matrix wires, so that keystrokes are no longer recognized? I really don't wanna send the board to Unicomp, and in my vicinity, there seems to be exactly nobody woh's able to repair broken mechanical keyboards. Will I have to do a bolt-mod maybe??
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 December 2017, 17:28:49 by Professor Fate »

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 10 December 2017, 15:39:03 »
If one or more rivets is/are broken in a specific area, then the layers and plates may be "flapping in the breeze" instead of being held together at a certain separation distance.

You can drill a small hole (1.5mm) into the exposed broken shaft and then do a "screw repair" with something like an M2x8 machine screw. That will keep everything firm and snug, and it is not necessary to tighten it down very hard - after all - you are replacing plastic with steel.
 
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 14:57:12 »
So that's gonna be a screw mod. I'm gonna need a nut for each screw, right? If yes, would you recommend to place the screws top-down or bottom-up?

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 12 December 2017, 19:09:41 »
So that's gonna be a screw mod. I'm gonna need a nut for each screw, right? If yes, would you recommend to place the screws top-down or bottom-up?

Usually people use the term "mod" to mean taking the keyboard completely apart and putting it back together in the same or different layout.

A "screw repair" generally means putting screws only in broken rivet shafts to repair them. In that case, there is no nut, although a washer might be desirable, and it will need to come up from the bottom.

Doing a full "bolt-mod" with nuts allows you to go in either direction.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 13:55:43 »
OK, got it. As I've now got my camera back, see a close-up of the part of the keyboard which is causing trouble. What I've also found out, unfortunately, is that I can't simply removed the lower shell as the baseplate seems to be glued or riveted or whatever to it near the KP_6 key, what seems somehow strange to me. Can I simply introduce a sharp knife to separate the baseplate from the shell?

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 13 December 2017, 20:20:15 »
The internal assembly should not be glued or affixed to the case shell. It should lift out, although there are tabs and pegs that it sets onto.

Here is a screw repair from the bottom side. You can see 3 M2 machine screws with washers going into places where rivets broke off. Note that the front plate on mine was beige, and yours is black.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 14 December 2017, 14:21:10 »
I've looked into this to find out that there is a plastic clip on the place in question. I can see it clearly between the baseplate and the lower case shell. It is in parallel position to the right edge of the board and some 1 inch long.

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 18 December 2017, 11:29:10 »
OK, after a handful of mishaps (one of my drills broke when drilling the first hole, and the baseplate was hard to remove from the lower case shell due to some two-sided adhesive tape the guys in the factory glued in for whatever reason), I managed to replace seven broken rivets (see pictures), but some of my numeric keys still don't work: *, /, +, -, 3, 6. Does this mean there are still some holes to be drilled and bolts to be inserted, or is there a conductor leading to these keys broken?
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 December 2017, 11:48:49 by Professor Fate »

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 18 December 2017, 14:40:53 »
It looks to me like almost every rivet at the controller end of the plate is broken.

If the plates are not held together firmly, then the keys will not activate.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 08:06:19 »
It's quite strange for an expensive keyboard to show signs of disintegration after just three years, isn't it?  :-X

I've just replaced another five broken rivets with screws, but no use. The hammers of all keys, which don't emit any keystrokes anymore, keep on dancing in almost all directions. I tried to apply the chopstick-o-death method (by using two thick needles), but I couldn't fix the hammers 'cause they were still too volatile.

What's missing unfortunately, is a rivet in the top right corner of the numpad.  :mad: What did help, however, was a screw near the left Ctrl key (which used to get stuck).

Any hints?
« Last Edit: Tue, 19 December 2017, 08:11:06 by Professor Fate »

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 08:16:11 »
I doubt that you have any options left at this point but to take it apart and do a complete bolt mod. If the pivot plates have shifted out of their tracks then messing around from the outside is not going to move them back into place.

The up-side of that is that you only need to do the drilling and such one time, future repairs will be much easier if you ever need them. You will also be able to "tune" the screws to get the feel that you want. I always recommend less tight rather than more.

I recommend making a support frame out of scrap wood so that the layers stay in place as you work with them.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 08:37:44 »
Sorry to tell you that this has been the answer I've been afraid of all the time.  ;D I've now got two weeks of vacation I can waste on a full bolt-mod (it's still better that to waste even more money on making the guys at Lexington do the repair). I think I won't even need the wooden frame as there are already several screws in place.

Is that true that you can't recommend the chopstick-o-death method described by some other users in this forum?

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 08:57:25 »
I have never used the chopstick method, I look at a bolt-mod as pretty much standard procedure on any Model M that I acquire (although I do have an M on sale now on ebay that I repaired with 6 screws because it was otherwise good).

The first bolt-mod took me a few hours, but after getting the hang of it the process is much easier. I don't know what you mean about screws in place. The entire concept of a "true" bolt mod is completely separating the assembly into all of its individual parts so that you can put it back together properly. If you don't have everything loose, I don't know how you would re-seat the pieces.

The idea of dis-attaching and re-attaching screws to pivot plates ("flippers") has always seemed problematic so I have never even tried to bother with it. But, fortunately for me, I have jars of them from previous projects.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 10:02:30 »
OK, I've finally managed to get the missing keys working: Needle-o-death alone didn't help, yet it was necessary to reattach the keys very gently. I'm still gonna conduct some extra tests. If the keys stop working (please, please not!!), I'll at least know what I'll have to do.

All the work I've done so far took me some 7 hours. One hour got lost because of the broken drill.

Nevertheless, many thanks for your helpful advice.
« Last Edit: Tue, 19 December 2017, 10:05:43 by Professor Fate »

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 10:17:03 »
IBM key stems can be stubborn to re-seat. If they don't click properly, you can try it again with the keyboard tilted all the way back, causing the springs to flop toward the back, or tilted forward so that they flop in the other direction.

On the underside of the head of the key stem, there is a tiny dimple that the mouth of the spring sits over (actually under, when the keyboard is being operated). If the spring is not centered on that dimple, the key will not operate properly.

I would try to re-seat a key stem at least 10 times before I even considered a physical modification.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 11:09:52 »
Yeah, but in my particular case, it was too obvious that the broken rivets on the right edge caused the trouble. The hammers were then just somewhere but not where they belonged to, and reseating them (so that they will end up in the right position underneath the key stem) is fiddly and tedious work.

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 19 December 2017, 11:18:16 »

The hammers were then just somewhere but not where they belonged


They sit in little grooves or tracks. You will need to separate all the layers and line them up individually.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 23 December 2017, 11:07:28 »
Yesterday it looked as if it was really necessary: The '-' key and the '3' key both stopped working, so I tightened the scres a little bit, but after that, the (previously unaffected) '0' key suddenly stopped working. It looked as if the screws were now too tight, but then I had to fiddle around with the hammers to get them re-aligned at last.

What you are saying now, in turn, means I'd have to do a complete screw-mod, right?

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 23 December 2017, 12:13:55 »
The "ears" on each side of the pivot plate ("hammer") sit in a little track or groove. As long as the layers are tight together, nothing can move. If the layers start to separate by more than about 2mm, the pieces can fall out of their tracks.

When you take the layers apart, you can put everything back in place and keep it there.

As always, I recommend less tight rather than more tight, as long as the layers are assembled and remain snug.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 23 December 2017, 16:12:13 »
Quote
If the layers start to separate by more than about 2mm, the pieces can fall out of their tracks.

This is exactly the issue I've got (see my last pics): I tightened the screws as much as I could, but the hammer '-' of the key still keeps on moving around. What I've also found out, is that the conductor mat is still maybe 1 mm away from the baseplate near the '+' and '-' keys despite the fact that one of the screws is right next to these two keys.

Offline daskeybo

  • Posts: 45
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 24 December 2017, 15:52:06 »
Time for a complete nut/bolt mod.

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 26 December 2017, 15:52:23 »
Do you refer to the tiny white hammers in your pic #1? I can see that those of the numpad are not properly aligned, so that you had the same issue as I have now. I'm gonna mod my keyboard tomorrow.

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 28 December 2017, 10:20:54 »
OK, I've got a success message for you: I've just completed the screw mode!  :)) It took me some 11 hours (excluding the work I'd previously done) and 34 screw / nut combinations. As you had warned me, the hammers turned out to be very, very stubborn. Right after the mod, the board did not emit any keystrokes, but this was an issue with the controller PCB, which was't properly seated.

Thank you for your very helpful advice!!  :thumb:

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 28 December 2017, 10:37:33 »

Thank you for your very helpful advice!


I am happy for you. 11 hours is a long time, next time it will take 1/3 of that time and less after that.

Re-assembly is the hard part, and even after having done a couple of dozen of them, I often fail to make a perfect re-assembly on the first attempt.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28

Offline Professor Fate

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 25
  • Location: Oldenburg, Germany
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 28 December 2017, 16:10:24 »
Well yeah, I had an incident twice: Some of the hammers fell out of their guiding rails whilst I was fastening the first screws. This meant a loss of one hour each.  >:D The third attempt, at last, was successful, yet I still had a problem with the PF6 key (introducing another screw in its vicinity solved the issue), and I had to drill some holes into the lower case shell because of some screws, which didn't fit anymore.

Offline fohat.digs

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 6462
  • Location: 35°55'N, 83°53'W
  • weird funny old guy
Re: Model M: Keys stop working when upper case shell is installed.
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 28 December 2017, 17:26:44 »
The wooden frame makes it much easier, and re-assembly of an M is 1000X easier than re-assembly of an F.

I use M2x8 screws and the bottom case will accept them, but just barely.

My experience tells me that the screws do not need to be tightened down very hard.
"It turns out that for a decade, whenever Trump wanted to get a loan, or make a deal, he would inflate the value of his real estate. For instance, suggesting that his 11,000-square foot penthouse was a 30,000-square foot penthouse.
And the attorney general of New York knew that Trump's property values were inflated because when it came time to pay taxes, Trump undervalued the very same properties.
It was all part of a very sophisticated real estate practice known as “lying.”
- Jon Stewart 2024-03-28