Islam

[microsoft windows]

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

[ricercar]

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

• This is like forbidding a church to be built near a KKK lynching site: ignorant and foolish. Why blame all Christians for an extremist sect's crime?
• The United States is built upon freedoms, not restrictions. Nazis can parade. Gays can marry. Jews can run banks. Fat white folk can sit couches. Muslims can build mosques.

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll let my government's soldiers defend to the death your right to say it.

[Ekaros]

Can I lynch americans here too?

On mosque, isn't USA a "free" country? So, why can't people do anything they want as long as they don't harm one other(goverment is allowed?)?

[quadibloc]

No, no. That isn't the Prophet. It's the man who founded the dynasty that ruled Egypt from 1805 onwards, as the Wali of Egypt and the Sudan.

[ricercar]

Me too.



It's actually more of a philosophy....

[Oqsy]

I thought islam was a cold cut...

[ricercar]

the man who founded the dynasty that ruled Egypt from 1805 onwards, as the Wali of Egypt and the Sudan.

I thought the Wali came down in 1989.

[didjamatic]

I thought this was hilarious, and it's actually on topic.  Sorry if it offends.

[Lanx]

I'll reiterate what i said in the religion thread, the mosque being built is fine, that mosque isn't sh%%ing on anyone. However adding a cultural center along w/ the mosque is basically sh%%ing on ppl. So go build a 2 floor mosque, i don't think anyone will care, but then piggyback a cultural center along w/ a mosque? now that is just abusing the "freedom of religion" bs.

[jpc]

I hate Illinois Nazis!

[ch_123]

Clearly what this thread needs is another raving Welly post, in which he rants on about every one else who doesn't agree with him is a relativist terrorist-loving, holocaust-denying retard, without actually specifying what his point of view actually is, or what actually should be done to solve the ill-defined issues he rants about.

[jpc]

Godwins law.

Not Godwin -- John Belushi. He says it right before this happens.

[quadibloc]

I saw this news article which is oddly relevant...

[quadibloc]

Muhammad Ali converted from Sunni to Sufism in 2005.

I'm glad to hear that he has moved to one of the tolerant Muslim denominations. It is only the two mainstream denominations of Islam, Sunni and Shi'a, that sadly have a significant intolerant streak.

[chimera15]

I'm an atheist, but I believe people have the right to be stupid and do stupid things as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, so they can build the mosque on a church for all I care.  The damage is already done, building another mosque or cultural center, or whatever there is meaningless, as there's already one as close to ground zero that's been there for 50 years and has overloaded it's capacity, which is kind of why they wanted to build this place.  I don't get why anyone would be so upset about it, except that Fox News needed something to fear monger about to up their ratings.

[Shawn Stanford]

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll let my government's soldiers defend to the death your right to say it.

I got yer back...

[Zen]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

[keyboardlover]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

Would that concept be considered extreme-right, extreme-left, or both?

I say both.

[Zen]

Religion is for people who can't handle reality .

[keyboardlover]

Religion is for people who can't handle reality .

That's your opinion. Many people (including myself) believe that religion is part of (and infused with) reality.

[Shawn Stanford]

That's your opinion. Many people (including myself) believe that religion is part of (and infused with) reality.

This is an interesting statement...

The word 'infused' means to give something a flavor or something else, such as an infused oil used in cooking. This leads to two interpretations of how religion is infused with reality:

1) That religion is the basis for being and that reality is merely a 'flavoring'.

2) That religion is merely affected by reality, rather than being a part of it.

Words are such interesting ways to express ideas, aren't they?

[quadibloc]

This is an interesting statement...

I think that all he meant was that not only can you look in the Yellow Pages and find churches there (religion is a reality) but that there is also a God (religion contains, or is infused with, reality).

[wellington1869]

This is an interesting statement...

The word 'infused' means to give something a flavor or something else, such as an infused oil used in cooking. This leads to two interpretations of how religion is infused with reality:

1) That religion is the basis for being and that reality is merely a 'flavoring'.

2) That religion is merely affected by reality, rather than being a part of it.

Words are such interesting ways to express ideas, aren't they?

I'd agree with keyboardlover's statement but I think the exact definition of 'infused' will probably differ from person to person.

For me, 'infused' means that religion colors and shapes the reality we percieve. But then its not just religion that does that, or has that effect. If its not our religion, then its our ideology that does that. Either way we dont receive reality transparently (and never will, despite the dream of the positivists).

But nor do I then throw up my hands in the air, like the relativists, and say well then we cant know reality so let your imagination run wild. Because we can still successfully interact with reality by taking cues from it, experimenting with it, determining general rules of cause and effect, including recognizing the effects of our own thoughts and acts on that reality, etc.  All that information can then feedback into our knowledge of both ourselves and our world, and further shape it.  THe argument for me, then, isnt whether reality exists, but what we want to do with it.  Ie, it always comes back to a values-and-methods argument.  Thats also what I mean when I say, the question isnt 'does god exist' (which is an ontological debate about the nature of "reality") but rather, "what kind of god"?  The latter is the more interesting question. and is a values debate.

I think where both 'atheists' and 'evangelicals' go wrong is in both of their refusal to interact with reality. Atheists want to raise it up as the sole objective law, evangelicals want to deny its force entirely.  Both therefore are similar in that they eliminate any sense of interacting. They treat people the same way, incidentally. (ie, refusing to dialogue).

[JBert]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

Religion don't kill people, idiots do.

[quadibloc]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

And nobody expected Nehemiah Scudder in 2012, either, but he's becoming a real possibility...

[keyboardlover]

I think many people discard religion since its mysterious and can't be proven by fact. This is true, but religion is meant to be a mystery and to truly believe in it, u must accept that its a mystery. And to me, if you don't believe at least that there's more to what we perceive as reality than what we can see, touch, etc, then that's a pretty ignorant way to live life.

[Zen]

I think you should be limited to one trolling post a week.

Did you know today is the 7th anniversary of Johnny Cash's death?  

Please take a moment of silence to remember the fallen.

Show Image

No it isn't !!
Good People like Johnny don't die the same way
as the rest of us mere mortals !
Johnny Cash's musical life was "a work without blemish, of uninterrupted perfection."
And in 200 years people will still hear The Man In Black, kinda like we still listen to Mozart almost 300 years after he "died"..

[wellington1869]

I'm an atheist, but I believe people have the right to be stupid and do stupid things as long as it doesn't hurt anyone

thats pretty much my view. which i think technically makes me an agnostic of some kind.

[wellington1869]

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[Zen]

Religion don't kill people, idiots do.

I take it that you won't deny millions of idiots have used religion as an excuse to kill countless millions of other people ?
IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

[keyboardlover]

I take it that you won't deny millions of idiots have used religion as an excuse to kill countless millions of other people ?
IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

Yea...people have also used all kinds of other excuses for war too. People have also used Religion as a 'reason' (not an excuse) to do a lot of good and even great things for other people in the world. So...not really sure of the relevancy of your comment.

[wellington1869]

IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

while that may be literally true, in terms of social/govt policy, I think the only rational course a govt can take is to say believe what you want so long as you dont hurt people...  the "private/public" distinction that the enlightenment generated is crucial for modern civilized life.  Of course that distinction is not recognized by either commies or islamists/evangelicals.

[Lanx]

I think many people discard religion since its mysterious and can't be proven by fact. This is true, but religion is meant to be a mystery and to truly believe in it, u must accept that its a mystery. And to me, if you don't believe at least that there's more to what we perceive as reality than what we can see, touch, etc, then that's a pretty ignorant way to live life.

So your taking the good ol, heathens are ignorant view but yet you don't ask why, you just assume, pretty hyocritically ignorant.

In college my girlfriend(now fiancee) had a friend since high school who was raised really religious, because her father was a pastor(or whatever you call it), I mean the whole family only had a tv in the parents bedroom so they could all watch TV together(and be monitored). (their favorite show at the time was 7th heaven, and thats kinda ironic cuz we all know about jessica biel!)
Now she was your average school innocent child you know, if there was an innocent person to represent the whole school it'd be her, and being that she was a friend of my gf, i extended whatever i could to her, protection from whackos (we went to an engineering/technology school so it was 99% male geeks, the few women that were there had trails of guys lusting after them and she was a "prize" cuz she was just so innocent). She didn't know much b/c of her sheltered life, i mean we went to the big movie at the time, scary movie? or something, she had to walk out of the theatre cuz of all the stuff she was being exposed to.
So she's a good student and trying to socialize too and have a good time, then she's like yea my dad is dealing with pancreatic cancer. I'm like, the pastor? she's like yea. And later on I mean she takes us to meet him on a few occassions, a few times it was at a picnic or whatever and he's a nice all around guy, a few other times he was hooked up to machines and not doing so well. Graduation he couldn't make it cuz he was doing so bad, and my gf and her lost touch (cuz we moved to virginia for jobs) then later she gets in touch again and her friends father died from the cancer and she's left to support the family, house and medical bills. she still belives it's all just a test and she'll endure.

I've never questioned about her faith or anything cuz i'm not about that, and she's never questioned mine, we were really just friends by proxy (of my gf) and if anything i was just mostly in the role of looking out for the third wheel (which i didn't mind).

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

[ch_123]

Both therefore are similar in that they eliminate any sense of interacting. They treat people the same way, incidentally. (ie, refusing to dialogue).

Personal experience shows that discussions about religion with people who believe different things to you don't really go anywhere, and just end up pissing everyone off in the process.

At the end of the day, different faiths, and different religious viewpoints offer largely mutually exclusive viewpoints of the world. The further you dig in to what you believe, the harder it gets to rationalize acceptance of other people's viewpoints of the world within your viewpoint. Some people will say "If what people think/believe makes them happy, then so be it", but that's more a lack of dialogue out of politeness than anything really.

[wellington1869]

At the end of the day, different faiths, and different religious viewpoints offer largely mutually exclusive viewpoints of the world. The further you dig in to what you believe, the harder it gets to rationalize acceptance of other people's viewpoints of the world within your viewpoint.

its true that if you dig deeper you'll find everyone is an individual.

but to solve most practical problems that face us all communally (which is all that govt needs to do), we dont actually need to dig all that deep.

[wellington1869]

-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

i was very close to a person like that (er, my gf for 3 years  I found her approach to be fatalistic and self defeating, but on the other hand, she did endure everything life threw at her and came out on top just by enduring. whcih i'm sure she took to be a sign of having passed the 'test'. ugh.

[Zen]

Yea...people have also used all kinds of other excuses for war too. People have also used Religion as a 'reason' (not an excuse) to do a lot of good and even great things for other people in the world. So...not really sure of the relevancy of your comment.

Sounds more like good old fashion Human Decency than religion to me .
All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..
Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

My point being that decent human beings don't need religious doctrine
to know what is right and what isn't ..
(JFYI : I'm a Roman catholic who only attends Mass when there is no Pope.
I have a serious issue whit the Pope-cultism)

[keyboardlover]

So your taking the good ol, heathens are ignorant view but yet you don't ask why, you just assume, pretty hyocritically ignorant.

No, that's not my view at all. I'm not saying if you don't believe in religion you're ignorant. I'm saying if you don't believe that there's more to reality than what we perceive - then THAT is ignorant. Re-read my post.

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

There's nothing wrong with believing that life is a series of tests; it can be a very good way for people to get better. Everyone has to deal with **** in life and I'm sure that a lot of very good people have to deal with even more **** than her. We have to play the hand we're dealt don't we? You can easily think of that, in itself, as a series of tests. Sometimes tests in life seems inexplicably hard don't they? But we always become better when we get through them.

[keyboardlover]

Sounds more like good old fashion Human Decency than religion to me .
All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..
Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

My point being that decent human beings don't need religious doctrine
to know what is right and what isn't ..
(JFYI : I'm a Roman catholic who only attends Mass when there is no Pope.
I have a serious issue whit the Pope-cultism)

Of course not everyone needs religion - it's not right for everybody, just as any particular religion isn't right for everybody. But like you said, so long as it doesn't involve violation of human rights, dignity, etc. - then who are we to judge what's right for someone else?

[Lanx]

Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

probably not

"I am the LORD your God
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD

or possibily
Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy
(i'm a workaholic)

and doesn't every religion do this?
"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above

or else there would be so many JC nailed to a cross statues?

thats about 40% that isn't right.

[Lanx]

No, that's not my view at all. I'm not saying if you don't believe in religion you're ignorant. I'm saying if you don't believe that there's more to reality than what we perceive - then THAT is ignorant. Re-read my post.

So in order to be not part of the ignorant club, you have "believe" u know use human emotion and have "faith" that there could, kinda, sorta is something more out there in the vastness of not understanding.
And also believe in little green men who come down to earth with their assortment of anal probes. cuz you know little green men are more than what we perceive.

[keyboardlover]

So in order to be not part of the ignorant club, you have "believe" u know use human emotion and have "faith" that there could, kinda, sorta is something more out there in the vastness of not understanding.
And also believe in little green men who come down to earth with their assortment of anal probes. cuz you know little green men are more than what we perceive.

Um...what??

[Ekaros]

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

Hmm, not in this case, but generalized some christians seem bit self-centered or maybe they are just comparing themselves to Job... Anyway, I can't see logic behind bad coming to family and person as test of faith from "loving" god... But who am I to tell, as an atheist...

[keyboardlover]

Hmm, not in this case, but generalized some christians seem bit self-centered or maybe they are just comparing themselves to Job... Anyway, I can't see logic behind bad coming to family and person as test of faith from "loving" god... But who am I to tell, as an atheist...

The whole concept of a 'loving god' I've found to be another thing that confuses most non-religious people. As a Christian, I can attest that we believe that God loves us by giving us gifts including the gift of life, the world as we know it, etc. Another gift is the ability to think for ourselves (which other animals in nature don't have - they only have instinct.) We have both instinct and the ability to think for ourselves. We do with that - as we wish. Of course the results are both good and bad, but God has no power over that, remember - because he gave us the gift of being able to think for ourselves.

[Lanx]

Um...what??

Re-read my post.
What i can infer from your logic is that you have to give in to what is beyond basic reality to not be ignorant.
Just like for some people it is beyond basic reality to believe there is a guiding hand.
There is also for some beyond basic reality that there are little green men and their hands have anal probes.

And these 2 examples are usually linked anyway, cuz where do all the crop circles and abductions happen? at the "bible belt" where all the corn fields and wheat fields are.

[Ekaros]

The whole concept of a 'loving god' I've found to be another thing that confuses most non-religious people. As a Christian, I can attest that we believe that God loves us by giving us gifts including the gift of life, the world as we know it, etc. Another gift is the ability to think for ourselves (which other animals in nature don't have - they only have instinct.) We have both instinct and the ability to think for ourselves. We do with that - as we wish. Of course the results are both good and bad, but God has no power over that, remember - because he gave us the gift of being able to think for ourselves.

This is OT, but do you then think prayer cannot have any effect? Or do you pray for some other mean?

[wellington1869]

probably not

"I am the LORD your God
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD

or possibily
Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy
(i'm a workaholic)

and doesn't every religion do this?
"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above

or else there would be so many JC nailed to a cross statues?

thats about 40% that isn't right.

yea, some of them are hard to swallow for non-monotheists.

things like 'dont kill' are easy to agree to. But i know many buddhists and hindus, for example, creatively interpret the others. For instance, 'no other god but me' doesnt really fly well for polytheists. 'no graven images' doesnt fly well for cultures like buddhism and hinduism so steeped in the art and artistry of divine icons.
So they interpret these a little creatively. For instance, they dont take them literally. They take 'no other gods but me' to be a non-literal reference to the unity of Being (which both hindus and buddhists can agree to). Similarly they interpret 'no graven images' to mean "understand that any icon is a tool to lead you towards the recognition of the unity of being". Ie, dont take the image too seriously, its one manifestation of the infinite faces of god.

So there are definitely some 'commandments' that they dont take literally but figuratively. When they do that, yea, they can accept the commandments.

after all, even the commandment 'dont kill' was originally not literal. Moses didnt want the 12 tribes to kill each other - ie, it was against internal divisiveness (which was the context when he went up the mountain, leaving the jews quarrelling amongst themselves with no unity). He certainly didnt mean dont kill the philistines and others the 12 tribes were currently at war with. So he certainly didnt mean it literally.  It (and the other commandments) have always been read within different historical contexts and therefore with non-literal meanings.  Its only evangelicals who read them literally.

[keyboardlover]

Re-read my post.
What i can infer from your logic is that you have to give in to what is beyond basic reality to not be ignorant.
Just like for some people it is beyond basic reality to believe there is a guiding hand.
There is also for some beyond basic reality that there are little green men and their hands have anal probes.

And these 2 examples are usually linked anyway, cuz where do all the crop circles and abductions happen? at the "bible belt" where all the corn fields and wheat fields are.

I'm seeing little relevancy to what you're inferring. What I meant, is exactly what I said.

This is OT, but do you then think prayer cannot have any effect? Or do you pray for some other mean?

Well, Christians believe that if you need God, he knows it, but you have to show him in some way that you need help (it's like if you're in math class and you don't know the problem but don't raise your hand, you're not going to get any help). It's affect should be two-part; 1. it should bring a calming feeling (similar to meditation) and 2. there's an idea that an answer to what you're requesting will be delivered to you in some way (could be any random life situation).

[keyboardlover]

tl;dr
That said, subscribing to any actual religion is a pretty limiting and unquestionably ignorant thing to do.

Having no belief at all ("blank slate") is the least limiting option (not necessarily least ignorant, but then...is it really ignorant if there's no proof that there's something to believe in anyway?). Least limiting = excellent "default choice". Should someone want to explore those areas of thought and theory, they can form their own beliefs.

Organized religion is crap and needs to be abolished. At the very least it will be a step...a major contributing factor, over the course of, say, 10 generations...towards world peace, if such a thing can ever be attained.

I agree with you in some ways...but organized religion isn't really crap - religion is what you do with it as an individual. Just like any religious text - it's not meant to be read word-for-word - it's meant to be interpreted in a way that's important to YOU. Everyone is an individual with individual beliefs. If you think that's going to change (and that will bring world peace)...well that's pretty ignorant.

As long as I subscribe to no specific belief system, live my life doing good for others, and have respect for the world I live in I believe I'll be treated well by whatever judgement system there may be.

I agree with that and see no problem with it.

And (edit) I'm actually not a strict Christian or Catholic (raised Catholic) and I do believe that some parts of organized religion do more harm than good. But like I said, I think it's more about what you do as an individual and I don't think it really matters whether that does or doesn't involve aspects of organized religion.

[Parak]

it's not meant to be read word-for-word - it's meant to be interpreted in a way that's important to YOU. Everyone is an individual with individual beliefs. If you think that's going to change (and that will bring world peace)...well that's pretty ignorant.

Organized religion contradicts that directly. It's like saying that you like governments, but adhere to the ideas of anarchy.

[keyboardlover]

Organized religion contradicts that directly. It's like saying that you like governments, but adhere to the ideas of anarchy.

Well, I was raised Catholic and that's what I was taught so...

[Parak]

Well, I was raised Catholic and that's what I was taught so...

Of course. People can interpret things however they wish, and have their individual beliefs, as long as those interpretations and beliefs adhere to what's dictated by their respective organized religion.

[keyboardlover]

Of course. People can interpret things however they wish, and have their individual beliefs, as long as those interpretations and beliefs adhere to what's dictated by their respective organized religion.

I think you're missing the point...the point of organized religion (to me) is to simply give you a structure to base your individual beliefs upon. No Christian (or otherwise religious person) should ever feel like what their religion "dictates" should ever take the place over doing what's right. And doing what's right, is an individual decision.

[keyboardlover]

Ahhh it's good that you've clarified this, keyboardlover. The assumption (and not incorrectly, in a whole whack of cases) when someone says "I'm a ______" is that you are one of those "I MUST DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY OR I AM DESTINED FOR _______ (insert something horrible)" people.

So, in essence, you have the basic fundamental Christian beliefs, mixed with your own interpretations and extensions? Quite different from what I presumed, for sure. Carry on.

Yea and I think that's a common misconception with most religious folks (and especially with Christians). In reality, that concept really goes against Christ's actual teachings. For example, I suspect that much of what that preacher who was going to burn the Korans violates much of Christ's actual teachings. And, there are parts of every Christian religion (including Catholicism) which go against Christ's actual teachings. It's true that organized religion misconstrues a lot of things - I'm just trying to point out that it's not all bad (if you take only take in the good).

[ch_123]

The Catholic Church seems pretty insistent that it's interpretation of things is the only valid one, and you'll burn in hell if you think otherwise.

Which is kinda funny when they start changing stuff around and making up new things, and then tell people how great it is that they're keeping up with the times.

[keyboardlover]

The Catholic Church seems pretty insistent that it's interpretation of things is the only valid one, and you'll burn in hell if you think otherwise.

Which is kinda funny when they start changing stuff around and making up new things, and then tell people how great it is that they're keeping up with the times.

Well, certainly no large, complex organization of people is perfect, is it? And of course there will be room for interpretation when it involves something (like religion) which is, in and of itself, a mystery. Again, that belief is not what I was taught (and many others that I know).

[ch_123]

The 'selling point' of the Catholic Church is that because their organization descends directly back to the church of St. Peter, and that the Pope is God's human representative on earth, that their interpretation of the Christian faith is the only valid one going. If you are a Catholic, you have to accept everything the church tells you, or you are basically a bad Catholic. A lot of people ignore this issue, but this is the official policy of the church.

Now, it so happens that with this official and infallible interpretation of The Way Things Are™, you get a lot of baggage that never was mentioned anywhere in the bible, and was basically just pulled out of the collective arse of the church. Take the concept of 'limbo' for example. At no point was limbo ever mentioned in the bible. The basis for it was some loose interpretation of some lines in the bible, but such is the nature of the bible that any line could be interpreted to mean just about anything, and you'll inevitably find someone who agrees with you.

For anyone reading unfamiliar with the concept, Catholicism used to preach that if you died without being baptised, you would be trapped in limbo, a sort of grey prison between heaven and hell where you'd languish in boredom for the rest of eternity. If a child was horribly sick upon being born, the priest would be rushed in to do a sort of 'emergency baptism' to prevent the soul of the child being trapped in limbo. But if this didn't happen, off the soul went to limbo. The child would never get to spend the rest of eternity in paradise. In some places, they were denied a dignified burial in a church. In times when such things were taken very seriously, the trauma of all this to the bereaved families often equaled that of the loss within of itself.

So then, in the aforementioned Second Vatican council, limbo was seen as somewhat outdated and was done away with. But this raises all sorts of questions - was limbo suddenly dissolved and all the souls sent up to heaven? Was limbo retained, but subsequent unbaptised souls spared from it? Was there even a limbo in the first place? Stuff like this was serious business for a lot of people, and yet it suddenly was irrelevant. When we consider again the basis under which Catholicism is predicated, there are only really two conclusions to draw -

1) The Catholic Church was wrong in the teaching of limbo. But they're meant to be right about everything, so if they were wrong about that, what else are they wrong about?
2) The concept of limbo was irrelevant from the outset. But everything the Church teaches is meant to be the canon that all Catholics must follow, so if that's irrelevant, what else is?

Now, at this point you may think that I'm holding the Church to ridiculous standards, and it's absurd to criticize the Church for moving forward. But the thing is that it's not moving forward - it's still denouncing the evils of things like homosexuality, contraception and even masturbation because, well, that's what they've always been doing and why would they change now? In Africa, one of the big obstacles that those trying to fight AIDS are facing is the disruptive influence of the Catholic Church. When they're not preaching fire and brimstone about contraception, they're using bull**** pseudo-science to undermine actual workable solutions. A few years back, I read the results of a survey that showed that 75% of Nigeran Catholic priests believed that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality and other various sins. Great...

Even though I have no time for religion, I admire the progressive Protestant-based faiths that have actually realized that the Medieval age ended a few centuries ago, and try to bring the positive message of Christ to their followers. But Catholicism isn't like that. Catholicism is a disguisting dinosaur religion that is not strengthened by the passage of time, but undermined and ridiculed, cursed by its own arrogance to be set in stone and watch the rest of the world fly by it. But sure, nothing is perfect, especially those who think they are.

[keyboardlover]

Dude - you hate Catholicism and have a personal vendetta against it. We get it. No religion is perfect. I could write a 74320978-line post about the problems of any said religion and why I'm so butthurt about it. But...would anyone care? And would it make any difference?

[microsoft windows]

I hate it when people sympathisize with the terrorist Muslims but hate Christianity.

[ch_123]

I hate it when people sympathisize with the terrorist Muslims but hate Christianity.

Is that a reference to me? Because I sure as hell don't remember sympathizing with Muslim terrorists.

[ch_123]

Dude - you hate Catholicism and have a personal vendetta against it. We get it. No religion is perfect. I could write a 74320978-line post about the problems of any said religion and why I'm so butthurt about it. But...would anyone care? And would it make any difference?

Why discuss anything so? Plenty of people have posted tl;dr opinions of all sorts of political and religious views around here. Why not ask all them that same question? This is something that happens to concern me and I decided to spell out my opinions on the matter. Simple as that. I don't see how I have any more of a 'personal vendetta' against Catholicism that Welly has against relativists, or MW against healthcare.

[keyboardlover]

Why discuss anything so? Plenty of people have posted tl;dr opinions of all sorts of political and religious views around here. Why not ask all them that same question? This is something that happens to concern me and I decided to spell out my opinions on the matter. Simple as that. I don't see how I have any more of a 'personal vendetta' against Catholicism that Welly has against relativists, or MW against healthcare.

Well, things are worth discussing when the points are constructive. Yours are destructive. If you could somehow make them constructive, you might have something worth discussing.

[microsoft windows]

Is that a reference to me? Because I sure as hell don't remember sympathizing with Muslim terrorists.

I wasn't referencing you. I don't really remember your stance on Islam. I was just referencing the general younger leftist audience (You know, the Obama fanatics).

[chongyixiong]

http://www.galileowaswrong.com/galileowaswrong/

Only $50 and you get a free luncheon!

[Oqsy]

Do you get a free Geocentrism thermos to take with you to school / work to show everyone how kickass you are?

[audioave10]

Another profit seminar for the weakminded.
SAD

[chimera15]

1 step up from the flat earth society at least.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=65

[wellington1869]

Only $50 and you get a free luncheon!

what the hell is luncheon? why dont they just call it lunch?

[ch_123]

Well, things are worth discussing when the points are constructive. Yours are destructive. If you could somehow make them constructive, you might have something worth discussing.

I don't get what you mean by 'destructive' in this context. I guess most criticisms of anything are 'destructive' in nature. I'm sure if I discussed my 'destructive' opinions about holocaust deniers, I wouldn't have got the same response.

Or are you saying that nothing good can come out of what I'm saying? I think that discussing the bad points of an organization that reaped such evil upon so many people around the world is probably a good thing. Again, no one accuses people of being 'destructive' when they bad mouth fascists, communists, terrorists, what's different here other than the fact that what I'm saying is against your religion?

[keyboardlover]

I don't get what you mean by 'destructive' in this context. I guess most criticisms of anything are 'destructive' in nature. I'm sure if I discussed my 'destructive' opinions about holocaust deniers, I wouldn't have got the same response.

Or are you saying that nothing good can come out of what I'm saying? I think that discussing the bad points of an organization that reaped such evil upon so many people around the world is probably a good thing. Again, no one accuses people of being 'destructive' when they bad mouth fascists, communists, terrorists, what's different here other than the fact that what I'm saying is against your religion?

If you don't know what the word means, Google it. I can tell you already know how to use Google.

Anyway, what I meant is, what is the point of what you're saying? Is it destructive or constructive? Does it result in a change to benefit the greater good or not? Your points, I can guarantee, do not. Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

[pex]

Anyway this is the way Muhammad dodges the punches.

Show Image

And the final word on whether Obama is muslim: here he is practicing to dodge the punches.  Case closed.

Show Image

I tried to read through this thread to see what purpose 6 pages of not answering the thread's question served (I agree that sometimes you have to spend time to break down tangential arguments which must be built as a foundation to examine the original question, but I'm not sure I could find that strategy here.)  I went from skimming to not bothering so I can just examine and respond to that original question.

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

Legally? Morally? Culturally?

I still have trouble grasping what the issue is.  If a landowner cares to rent or sell a property, and the buyer or tenant wants to make a islamic mosuqe or a multicultural center or blah blah, who are the complainers lobbying to?  Who is expected to stop this transaction?

Let's hit the other angles:
What authority in the US or NY constitutions provide a domestic power to prohibit the transaction or establishment?

Some say that certain things, like burning koran ceremonies or whatever other benign domestic thing (i assume including putting mosque at ground zero can be included) 'endanger our troops in iraq and afghanistan) and it becomes a national security issue.  Yet domestically, we say that police can generally not benefit from exegencies that they themselves have perpetrated for search and seizure purposes -- ununiformed persons flew a plane into a building in NYC, so: we now start a war in iraq and afghanistan and then say people at home can't be at liberty because of the exigency the fedgov created in war?  I don't think the US has that power.

Back to who the complainers are lobbying to: the landowner?  If the landowner has already contracted a sale or rental, what are these people asking to be done?  Breach a contract, damaging the fidelity of contracting between any people?

I just read in the paper some islam cleric dude was saying it's kind of ridiculous to call ground zero, whatever that really means, some sort of sacred ground because of the strip bar and other such things a block in the vicinity.  Which brings up the next question as to why or how this area is special in the first place:

people die from particular and unparticular tragedies, if we go on naming all of these tragedies and making specialized zones for them, america will die in any or several ways.

So for whatever reasons we might hate islam or think it's wrong, I don't see how we can avoid extending privileges/immunities/due-process/etc. to keep the government out of the affairs of free men, and the rest of the reason to make a big deal of it seems to have little value or goal.  (I can understand the court of public opinion and the forcing of economic choices by making it inconvenient or expensive to persue a goal, but I ultimately don't see how hampering the people up in arms really are for economic purposes.)

Boiled down, it seems to me that this has been entitled to press, taking up spaces in newspapers, solely for the purpose of not having to bother to report news that might make us a more civic and humane people.  Good job media, government, and friends of slavery, you've captured another day.

All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..

Well, we all know why someone isn't an overman.  What about the Nietschzeists?  Or are they just perverted?

[ch_123]

Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

Ah, so if you don't like what the Catholic Church stands for, you're a fascist? There's something rather ironic about that statement, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Oh well, I don't think I'm missing out on much.

[keyboardlover]

Ah, so if you don't like what the Catholic Church stands for, you're a fascist? There's something rather ironic about that statement, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Oh well, I don't think I'm missing out on much.

It's not that you don't like it...it's what you think should happen to it. There's a lot of things that you seem to just 'not get'.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

First of all, everyone is wrong here and elsewhere.

The only religion that is right and thus the only religion that should be allowed to build a church at ground zero and elsewhere is this. Fact!

Go and be enlightened my brothers and sisters !




On a more serious note:
Religions are all the same. They are all centered around worshipping the sun, which is about as primitive as it gets. Nothing wrong with it, the sun is pretty awesome tbh. But we are a couple thousand years into the future nah. What's wrong with using those highly evolved brain cells and trying to come up with your own solution to all those nagging questions that religion has so "successfully" answered in a very mass-friendly manner that fits for just about anyone who is content with the answers provided by their favorite (or only taught to) religion and stops asking questions.

I for one have my own theory about the universe, why we here, what's good or wrong, etc. . Do I care to share it with you? Nah, not even close. U got to either be family, VERY close friends or have sucked my di** before we get to the point where I share that with you. But what I am willing to say is this: I believe in you brother or sister. I believe that you are able to, if you look deep inside yourself, find your own answers, your own theories and your very own "religion". Maybe with the aid of some drug of your choice (I highly recommend weed, it doesn't have those nasty side effects as other drugs, like total loss of reality sense, addiction or, well death) if it helps.

Until you try, I suggest to follow the guidance of the only "gods" you will ever personally meet and be able to interact with in this life: your parents.
Yes some gods are *******s and some god's guidance isn't worth ****. But for some reason, you ended up with each other. Find out why and find out what u can learn from this situation.

[ch_123]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

[pex]

On a more serious note:
Religions are all the same. They are all centered around worshipping the sun, which is about as primitive as it gets.

solar panels worship the sun and they tithe in electrons

[Lanx]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

ch_123, since keyboardlover cannot give you anything besides
Reread what i just wrote
Go google it
Your destructive (fingers in ears) (la, la,la i can't hear you and your blasphemy)
I'll take the general stance on the church!

My fiancee and I are aethiests, sorta kinda raised this way and allowed to be whatever. Though sometimes we see our friends and some are very structured and regimented having gone to sunday school every 7th day and mass. While some are messed up and we really don't associate with them anymore, I mean not all the fruit in the basket is fresh.
We do think, what if we have kids? We could force them into Christianity, it would give them structure and "force" a wall upon them. For instance i'm petrified to have kids, more so to have a teenage girl, cuz well you know. However, if i raised her Christian since the day she was born, she'd be all saving herself like jessica simpson and she'd resist everything, because every fiber in her being would tell her not to, or the "lord" will smite her.
Of course there is also the whacked way the church thinks, that a condom is an affront to the "lord" so it's ok to get pregnant outside of wedlock and it's ok to contract hundreds of STD's and AIDS cuz we all know boys are very clean and are in tune with "pulling out" why look at bristol palin... ok well, she didn't get married but after 1 year of annoying the boy she did... well ok he called it off again...
But thats what I call republican Christianity, the nutjob way where even if they say you got raped and got pregger, you have to have the kid no matter what.
I don't personally know these nutjob republic christians, i guess i know normal christians.
For instance my fiancee has this work friend(you know girlfriend) and she has a husband, we hang out together. She is really religious, she's also Spanish, so she's got that "lord is our savior" thing going.
How religious is she? she prays at every meal, no biggie right? She has 2 huskies, these dogs are cool she loves them like children, to the extent that her own sister was renting out a room and she said to her sister, the dogs are above you in status. I mean she really loves these dogs, she won't let her own mother watch the dogs or any family for that matter and she'll only let the expensive 50$ a day per dog kennel watch over them. (she'll let me watch over them tho cuz i'm apparently the only person she's seen that can control them)
Anyway, anytime we're over and it's doggie feeding time, she'll put food in their bowl, hold their snouts, and pray with them!
I mean she's a nice person, not someone you want to work with however, cuz she cares about family a lot so she'll put family above work, if you care about work, you want to get it done right?
Anyway she's never judged us, lives a balanced life and is generally happy, gogo christian power!

[keyboardlover]

Lol, well you both seem to be of about equal intelligence. You should get together sometime and go bowling or something

Both of your knowledge about the Church and Catholics and how they are raised is flawed. It's not the same way everywhere. Should I repeat myself again?

[Senor_Cartmenez]

For instance i'm petrified to have kids, more so to have a teenage girl, cuz well you know. However, if i raised her Christian since the day she was born, she'd be all saving herself like jessica simpson and she'd resist everything, because every fiber in her being would tell her not to, or the "lord" will smite her.

Hate to break it to you like this brah (and potentially increasing ur unjustified fear of having a teenage daughter, life's life y'know?) but:

Good luck with that theory. I have had a roommate at university who was the daughter of a pastor (that term exist in english? a church dude, y'all know what I mean).
That girl was the nastiest slut I have ever met in my life (and no I did not touch that with a broom stick). There was literally another dude in her room every friggin night and they hit it off crazy loud. Believe me, you stop getting turned on by that after the first week at the utmost.

I have spoken to some friends who are in deep with the church but don't seem all thet christiany to me. I asked them what they think about that story and if it's common. They were kinda grinning at me knowingly. It all fits anyway. Churches usually have some sort of youth programs and stuff where the "good young future christians" can meet and do "young christian stuff" without being monitored by adults all the time. Don't know bout the US but that's very common here in Germany.

They do some activities like helping some elderly and stuff like that and after a while, the "old and wise christians" of the church appoint a few "good young christians" who are closing in on or are above 18. Once they are, they are given the responsibility and freedom to organize activities with the young christians. Parties are acceptable as well these days. And boy oh boy I have attended one of those new year's eve parties in the christian youth community around nah. **** is nasty there. Extreme underage drinking (which is extremely common in Germany but one wouldn't expect in a christian community house) and all the other party goodies (puking, flashing, making out and all the other good stuff).

Anywho, what I am trying to say is:
1) Raising your child conservative christian, will not stop a teenage girl from becoming a slut if she so chooses. On the contrary, those extreme restrictions may very well make it all the more interesting for a teenager to try out that "forbidden stuff". Depending on the character of the teenager, it may very well be the only reason why they want to try out that "forbidden stuff" (don't discount the need to rebel etc.)...
2)Religion has never been worth much if the person is not ready and willing to embrace it. Certainly in this modern day and age an ever so dwindling number of people is actually ready and willing to accept it. They do the deed of going to church, getting baptized and stuff like that, because it's what their surrounding (often their family) expects and dictates. But they don't give a flying **** about what they are told. The moment they are on their own feet and make their own decisions, most of that stuff goes out the window.

I honestly believe the only reason why christianity still is slightly relevant, is because there are so damn many old people in western society (particularly europe) and they hold so damn much economic power. In a few decades all those folks are gone and christianity will continue it's slow but steady demise. It will never vanish mind you, there will always be people who need their fix and can't do it by themselves. But it will lose more and more relevance.

Same goes for Islam, those folks are just a couple (hundred?) years behind western society (I say this hating myself for sounding like an arrogant redneck ******* but they are. Not in everything mind you, but certainly in terms of relevance of religion).

[quadibloc]

Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

I looked through this thread, and I couldn't see where he proposed how to get rid of the Catholic religion through sterilizing the Catholics, or taking away their children, or killing them. That would be fascist.

The harm that has been done in the name of the Christian religion is a matter of historical record, so I wouldn't say that it is merely a matter of opinion.

The thing is, though, that Christianity in general today has ethical standards far superior to those of the paganism it supplanted. Which is why Western Civilization was able to develop into what it is today, in its technical competence and in its tolerance.

One might think of Christianity, and other forms of "revealed religion", as a scaffolding that helped our civilization to be built; but one removes the scaffolding when the building is completed. But you can't just snap your fingers and make a religion disappear.

For those raised in a religious faith, that faith forms the basis on which their moral judgements of right and wrong rest. And religion provides a simple explanation of why we should do what is right; we are the children of a Heavenly Father who loves us, and we should not disappoint Him by misbehaving.

If you take this out from under people at the wrong age, or out from under people who aren't really bright enough to accept philosophical reasons for ethical behavior... what you can get is people who see no reason not to lie, cheat, and steal whenever they can get away with it, or, worse yet, people who think that other people can be killed, tortured, forcibly bred, and whatever else might serve the long-term interest of the human race as defined by them.

If most of religion is nonsense as worthless as bathwater, let's not throw out the precious gift of caring about our fellow human beings along with that nonsense.

And...

We know that we are conscious beings. We see what we see, we hear what we hear, we feel what we feel. We're not empty hollow biological computing mechanisms that go about the business of survival without anyone "there". Right now, our understanding of the mechanisms of this world, impressive though it is, still gives us no clue as to how such a thing can be.

There is, thus, a little room for spirituality to infuse our sense of ethics.

[ch_123]

Lol, well you both seem to be of about equal intelligence. You should get together sometime and go bowling or something

Both of your knowledge about the Church and Catholics and how they are raised is flawed. It's not the same way everywhere. Should I repeat myself again?

Please don't, I'm getting somewhat bored of listening to you.

The irony is that you accuse me of not respecting your opinions, and as I elaborate on them further and further, your counters become more childish and lacking in substance, relying on ad hominem attacks, and refuting things I haven't even said.

Not the same everywhere? Well, given the amount of abuse (whether it be of children, money, truth or otherwise) that the Catholic Church (and not just some bad blood on the ground) stands over in Europe, in America, in Africa and really just about everywhere else, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, to put it mildly.

[itlnstln]

Where's Webwit when you need him?

[keyboardlover]

I looked through this thread, and I couldn't see where he proposed how to get rid of the Catholic religion through sterilizing the Catholics, or taking away their children, or killing them. That would be fascist.

I think that believing that a particular religion "needs to end" can be considered fascist.

The irony is that you accuse me of not respecting your opinions, and as I elaborate on them further and further, your counters become more childish and lacking in substance, relying on ad hominem attacks, and refuting things I haven't even said.

Not the same everywhere? Well, given the amount of abuse (whether it be of children, money, truth or otherwise) that the Catholic Church (and not just some bad blood on the ground) stands over in Europe, in America, in Africa and really just about everywhere else, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, to put it mildly.

When did I accuse you of not respecting my opinions? I merely stated relevant points, you countered with pointless examples of past issues caused by the Church. And again, if we're talking about abuse, why aren't we talking about any other religion for that matter? I think whatever "point" you're trying to make is pointless.

EDIT: and If I'm wrong, make your one and only point in your next post. Everyone can gauge its validity.

[wellington1869]

Where's Webwit when you need him?

I think we're doing just fine beating each other up without him

[wellington1869]

solar panels worship the sun and they tithe in electrons

lol, sweet.

frankly i think if we went back to literally worshipping the sun we'd all be better off. And trees. And rivers and lakes.

[wellington1869]

the human race needs a good old fashioned dance around the may pole.

[ch_123]

I think that believing that a particular religion "needs to end" can be considered fascist.

So, what do you think about crazy cults?

When did I accuse you of not respecting my opinions? I merely stated relevant points, you countered with pointless examples of past issues caused by the Church.

Well actually, given that I discussed examples of the Church screwing things up in Africa, that's not right. That, and the church still hasn't satisfactorily atoned for its past crimes.

As much as I am sure that the Church would love everyone to forget the sort of stuff it was/still is involved in, since when did the crimes carried out by the church become 'pointless'? I haven't seen any skinhead groups gassing Jews lately, is the holocaust a 'pointless example of past issues' caused by fascists?

And again, if we're talking about abuse, why aren't we talking about any other religion for that matter? I think whatever "point" you're trying to make is pointless.

Welly seems to have the Muslim angle covered, and I haven't read into other religions enough to make valid opinions about it.

EDIT: and If I'm wrong, make your one and only point in your next post. Everyone can gauge its validity.

I've made my point quite a few times already. You're the only one that has issue with it, so yeah, maybe you should take your own advice and read it again or Google it or something.

[chimera15]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

Fascism is really all about a completely analytical way to dissect a society.  It's what happens when you put science in charge of a society. It strictly labels people based on race, class, wealth, religion, and most importantly capabilities and intelligence.  As such it has some redeeming and good qualities as a form of government.  It's when it's taken to extremes, just as all forms of government that things go really wrong.

 You look at the Nazi's before the war, and before they started killing their own populace, as a form of government it served to completely turn around what was essentially becoming a third world country in the heart of Europe.  Even during the war and losing completely as a society looking at scientific advancement they completely outpaced any culture that's ever been on earth in inventiveness and scientific accomplishment.

The problem really was that the Nazi's combined Fascism with Eugenics and then it got super evil.   The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures.  So in some way Hitler was correct, if an evil sob.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

Nazis made the trains run on time.

Didn't last very long though, try catch a train of the omnipotent "Deutsche Bahn" on time. You will be sadly disappointed.

"The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures."

This statement would get you in a lot of trouble if u said that over nah. In fact we currently have a person that is vastly more powerful than you, having to step down from his really high position, cause he made similarly short-sighted remarks in a book he recently published... Tread lightly brah

What happened, happened. That doesn't mean that effects that are benefiting society today should be connected with something the Nazis did. If you really want to do that, then say that the Autobahn (our superior "highways" or "speedways" as you may call them) was something good the Nazis did for Germany.

I highly doubt that they needed the Nazis to accomplish that feat though. I am sure some other dude with a short moustache, side parting and weird austrian accent would have accomplished that eventually.


Btw.: Godwin's law, never heard of it, loving (and living) it already

[chimera15]

Bringing it back to the discussion.  I always found it interesting that Iran actually means Arlan, and that's where Iran got it's name, from it's alliance with the Nazi party during ww2.

[keyboardlover]

I've made my point quite a few times already. You're the only one that has issue with it, so yeah, maybe you should take your own advice and read it again or Google it or something.

I knew you couldn't do it. Hence why it's pointless.

[chimera15]

Didn't last very long though, try catch a train of the omnipotent "Deutsche Bahn" on time. You will be sadly disappointed.

"The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures."

This statement would get you in a lot of trouble if u said that over nah. In fact we currently have a person that is vastly more powerful than you, having to step down from his really high position, cause he made similarly short-sighted remarks in a book he recently published... Tread lightly brah

What happened, happened. That doesn't mean that effects that are benefiting society today should be connected with something the Nazis did. If you really want to do that, then say that the Autobahn (our superior "highways" or "speedways" as you may call them) was something good the Nazis did for Germany.

I highly doubt that they needed the Nazis to accomplish that feat though. I am sure some other dude with a short moustache, side parting and weird austrian accent would have accomplished that eventually.


Btw.: Godwin's law, never heard of it, loving (and living) it already

A fact is a fact.  If a country suffers less from bad eyesight, or less baldness now than before half it's population was killed, let alone birth defects and relatively better health than other nations after compared to before, that can't really be disputed.  However bad it might seem, and go against the popular belief that everything related to Hitler was bad and evil.


The Nazi's changed the world in a lot positive ways and did a lot for what became Germany of today, let alone the rest of the world, and the massive amount of science and technical accomplishment that occurred under the Nazi regime.  Hell, we would nave never made it to the moon or had any interest in doing so if it wasn't for the Nazi's, and alone spurred thousands of more inventions and development that helped the world, saved lives, and fed people.  The computer's we're  using today are a large part because of the miniaturization that occurred as a result of the space race.  You could easily make the argument that if it wasn't for the Nazi's and fascism the internet wouldn't have existed.

The autobahn not only was good for Germany, it spurred and served as a model for the interstates in America as well.

[chimera15]

Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LwpC2NmpkksJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Iranian_relations+iran+nazi&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."

[keyboardlover]

Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."

It's well known that Ahmandinijad (sp?) is an outspoken denier of the Holocaust.

[chimera15]

It's well known that Ahmandinijad (sp?) is an outspoken denier of the Holocaust.

Well, that's just cause of the Jew hating thing that happened after the war...lol  Both segments of Iraq and Iran had alliances with Germany before and during the war though.  The allies had to actually fight Iraq during ww2 for control there because the germans had outfitted them with tanks and planes.

[pex]

Nazis made the trains run on time.

I wonder how the Japanese do it?

One word: Ainu.

[ch_123]

I knew you couldn't do it. Hence why it's pointless.

Since you seem to have some sort of attention span issue -

Catholicism is a disguisting dinosaur religion

The mass is over. Thanks be to God

Even the priests saw the irony in that one.

[keyboardlover]

Since you seem to have some sort of attention span issue -

The mass is over. Thanks be to God

Even the priests saw the irony in that one.

Are you done beating a dead horse?

[ch_123]

Apparently you weren't up until the point you ran out of ideas. But by all means, keep going, I'm dying to see what comes next.

[ricercar]

:pop2:

[wellington1869]

Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LwpC2NmpkksJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Iranian_relations+iran+nazi&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."

interesting link.

[keyboardlover]

Apparently you weren't up until the point you ran out of ideas. But by all means, keep going, I'm dying to see what comes next.

Um what?? I made my point...you never did. Because you don't have one. And each post  you make makes less sense than the one before.

[ch_123]

Deflection, even on the same page where I made the the point you claimed I didn't. Excellent job. A++

[keyboardlover]

Deflection, even on the same page where I made the the point you claimed I didn't. Excellent job. A++

...and what exactly is your point? :biggrin:

[ch_123]

Clearly my work here is done.

*disappears in puff of smoke*

[keyboardlover]

I can't honestly be the only person who sees clearly that CH did in fact make his point numerous times, very clearly, and backed up properly?

Ahh ok."catholicism is a disgusting dinosaur religion". Complete with full Wikipedia references. I give his thesis an F+ but that's just me.

[quadibloc]

Nazis made the trains run on time.

No, the Fascists made the trains run on time. Hitler didn't need to do that, because German trains ran on time even before he came along.

Kids these days, forgetting all their history.

Churches usually have some sort of youth programs and stuff where the "good young future christians" can meet and do "young christian stuff" without being monitored by adults all the time. Don't know bout the US but that's very common here in Germany.

In the United States, that would be impossible, and it would violate the law in most states, and probably Federal law as well. (Unless I misunderstand you, and you don't actually mean young people of both sexes in the same time and place.)

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Kraft Durch Freude still lives on in another form in Germany, but I am.

[wellington1869]

i'll say this for catholicism. they did modernize, in the end. Vatican II was hard but it was done, in the end. The catholic church today is a far cry from what it was in medieval times. ANd thats more than we can say for, well, islam, which the world is still waiting on.

[keyboardlover]

Ch_123 is from a country that probably by all rights has the worst abuses (in recent years) at the hands of Catholics. Which is very unfortunate, but shouldn't be blamed on Catholicism as a whole. The Irish Catholics who committed these abuses are solely to blame. But it's always easier to point the finger elsewhere...

[ch_123]

Yes, clearly in touch with the modern world.

The only difference between Christian extremism and Islamic extremism at the end of the day is that must people in developed countries just laugh at stuff like this. Maybe there's something to be learned here when we're trying to figure out how to make people in Muslim countries laugh at their extremists, because that's the only way you can really get people to turn away from that stuff.

The Irish Catholics who committed these abuses are solely to blame. But it's always easier to point the finger elsewhere...

The central hierarchy (including the Pope and his predecessors) of the Church knew exactly what was going on in Ireland and other countries which probably had it just as bad. Years later they're still not coming forward with all the details, and trying to shirk the blame wherever possible. Blaming the people on the ground just won't work.

[wellington1869]

Yes, clearly in touch with the modern world.

look, they used to  burn such people at the stake, they dont anymore. I'll take it.

whcih is a lot more than we can say for contemporary islam.

just sayin'. sure, the church has some ways to go in comparison to humanistic ideals. But they've left their most directly violent policies behind and deserve grudging credit for that.  It wasnt easy for an institution at the center of western civ for 2000 years to relinquish its absolute hold on the absolute center. Which is precisely what it did (was forced to, but accepted it by rewriting many of its central policies -- that was the hard part).  Vatican II after all was and is immensely controversial even today among the true believers (just ask mel gibson and his dad). It took courage for the institution to change in the face of modern knowledge and values.  And tahts more than mainstream islamic institutions have done.

its the kind of courage castro is showing today, which the people's party in china has yet to do.

[wellington1869]

come, let us dance around the may pole.

[wellington1869]

it was an ancient sacred pagan ritual. here are some instructions:

[quadibloc]

Hmm. Zoom is on, but not macro.

[microsoft windows]

I got a "May-pole" tree in my front yard that's 200 years old!

[keyboardlover]

The central hierarchy (including the Pope and his predecessors) of the Church knew exactly what was going on in Ireland and other countries which probably had it just as bad. Years later they're still not coming forward with all the details, and trying to shirk the blame wherever possible. Blaming the people on the ground just won't work.

I agree that what the Church did in this situation was inexcusable however they did not actually commit the acts. Those who committed the acts are the only ones to blame for the acts. I guess my point is, you can blame the pope (I'm not a big fan of him myself), you can blame the hierarchy (which I'm not a big fan of either), but don't blame Catholicism as a whole. There's a lot of good Catholics in the world and it's not fair to them.

[ch_123]

Definitely. I know plenty of good people who are Catholic. But is it the Catholicism that makes them good people? Would they be bad people if they had a different religion, or none at all? The sad reality is that if a Catholic rejects, for example, the homophobic ravings of the pope as being just that, then they are a good person, but a bad Catholic.

I guess you could say that that is my "point".

[keyboardlover]

Definitely. I know plenty of good people who are Catholic. But does the Catholicism make them good people? Would they be different people if they had a different religion, or none at all? The sad reality is that if a Catholic rejects, for example, the homophobic ravings of the pope as being just that, then they are a good person, but a bad Catholic.

I guess you could say that that is my "point".

I agree with that. But it depends who views them as a 'bad Catholic'. I know I wouldn't.

[wellington1869]

I got a "May-pole" tree in my front yard that's 200 years old!

itln? "I"ve got your may pole right here."?

[ch_123]

Maybe nobody will directly judge you (in most modern societies), but you have the cognitive dissonance associated with your most basic human empathy being at odds with the faith you subscribe to. In that situation, I would find myself a new religion.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I assume that people of such inclination will consider their religious beliefs and change accordingly, like swapping broadband providers. In reality I assume that various social/personal constraints may cause people to become disinterested in their religion without necessarily deciding that they are non-religious...

[keyboardlover]

Maybe nobody will directly judge you (in most modern societies), but you have the cognitive dissonance associated with your most basic human empathy being at odds with the faith you subscribe to. In that situation, I would find myself a new religion.

Then again, I'm not religious, so I assume that people of such inclination will consider their religious beliefs and change accordingly, like swapping broadband providers. In reality I assume that various social/personal constraints may cause people to become disinterested in their religion without necessarily deciding that they are non-religious...

Yea I actually have considered that many times but at this point I just kind of can't be bothered...and I don't really harbor bad feelings about Catholicism as a whole because I was taught (mostly) by good people who knew that doing what's right is more important than doing what some organization (religious or otherwise) tells you. As I've said, it's got its flaws but it's not all bad.

[microsoft windows]

itln? "I"ve got your may pole right here."?

No, my joke wasn't perverted. It's the old May-pole Tree joke I always told in Spanish class when I was a kid. Maple, May-pole...get it?

[Ekaros]

Catholics can do it too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515
He said: "Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.

"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

I thought Hitler was christian?

[quadibloc]

I thought Hitler was christian?

Hitler came from a Catholic background. However, saying that he "sought to eradicate God from society" is not dishonest, since he did interfere with the independent operation and functioning of churches in Germany and other areas under his control, attempting to turn them into organs of the State. And the Nazis did attempt to educate young people in such a way that loyalty to Nazism, not to other institutions like the church, would come first in their lives.

[Ekaros]

Hitler came from a Catholic background. However, saying that he "sought to eradicate God from society" is not dishonest, since he did interfere with the independent operation and functioning of churches in Germany and other areas under his control, attempting to turn them into organs of the State. And the Nazis did attempt to educate young people in such a way that loyalty to Nazism, not to other institutions like the church, would come first in their lives.

Hmm, that isn't too anti-religious. State mandate religion more of... Godvin, again...

[Soarer]

So eradicating God is on a par with Nazism, and virtue is meaningless without religion? LOL!

Can't think why, but I just can't take him seriously.

[keyboardlover]

Hmmm...classy...

[microsoft windows]

There should be a rule here against gross pictures.

[ch_123]

Says dead rabbit guy.

[Rajagra]

Catholics can do it too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

I was forced to listen to some of the Pope's speeches, by virtue of all other news being pushed off air (at least it felt that way.) It was indeed remarkable that he should openly admit his belief that a society can not operate well without religion to steer it.

It is a good reminder that behind the friendly facade, Christians share the same arrogance as Muslims and every other religion - the opinion that they have the right belief despite being the ones who have no evidence to support that belief.

I still think that Christianity has grown up a bit compared to some others, but maybe only because it was forced upon them. If they became dominant again maybe they would return to their old ways.

[quadibloc]

If they became dominant again maybe they would return to their old ways.

Christianity is dominant in the Western world. But there certainly are some Christian denominations that believe in the "old ways", and it is true that Roman Catholicism is at least partway there. This is why the idea of Sarah Palin becoming President makes my hair stand on end.

[ch_123]

In the context here, I read "dominant" as the position within society and whether they get mixed up in things like politics, education, laws etc.

Which is why I always chuckle when the Pope goes on about the 'evils' of secularism.

[wellington1869]

In the context here, I read "dominant" as the position within society and whether they get mixed up in things like politics, education, laws etc.

Which is why I always chuckle when the Pope goes on about the 'evils' of secularism.

i just dont think evil is a 'religion vs secularism' issue. both have done evil and both have done good. depends on the religion and depends on the secular ideologies. 'religion' and 'secularism' are too broad as categories to make value judgements about them, i think.

[ch_123]

True. You did have perfectly secular societies that did horrible things - look at Stalinist Russia. But maybe it's easier to fool people into doing stuff when it involves magical faeries and a harem of virgins in heaven? I don't know, I'm not a sociologist.

I guess the main issue above all others is not to be an *******.

[wellington1869]

True. You did have perfectly secular societies that did horrible things - look at Stalinist Russia. But maybe it's easier to fool people into doing stuff when it involves magical faeries and a harem of virgins in heaven? .

well the marxists had their own secular version of magic and fairies and heaven and salvation and utopia and monolithic enemies to scare you and utopia to attract you, both linked together by a magical 'inevitable' historical process which they saw at work everywhere in the world.

i think any kind of excessive fear (or desire) can pretty much get people to do just about anything, whatever myth (religious or secular) its based on.

excessive pride, excessive hate, excessive fear, excessive desire -- all of these make people exploitable if you can feed these to them.  (And if you have a monopoly over the sources of information reaching a group of people, then you can feed it to them).

aristotle and buddha were right: the golden mean, cultivated and achieved via  a habit of self-awareness of our emotional states and what they're making us do (or not do), is our only protection.

[ricercar]

the idea of Sarah Palin becoming President makes my hair stand on end.

If this happens, the US will become a 4-year reality TV show.

[wellington1869]

excessive pride, excessive hate, excessive fear, excessive desire -- all of these make people exploitable if you can feed these to them.

one could add: excessive sympathy, too.

[keyboardlover]

If this happens, the US will become a 4-year reality TV show.

One could argue that with Obama in office, the US currently already is a 4-year reality tv show.

[Lanx]

isn't it obama vs. the christians? cuz you can pretty much say all republican senators are some sort of christian.
I mean these are the retards that believe obama is not a us citizen, cuz well he's black and he can't possibily be christian cuz he's muslim cuz he's black.

[quadibloc]

One could argue that with Obama in office, the US currently already is a 4-year reality tv show.

I suppose one could. But if one did, one would be wrong.

It's unfortunate indeed that Obama chose to play partisan politics with the War on Terror. But I have no sympathy with the Republicans who obstructed the United States from joining the rest of the civilized world in ensuring - in a simple, uncomplicated fashion, instead of a bureaucratic nightmare that continues to involve private health insurers - that every American who needs medical care just gets it, with the government paying.

I don't know why the two parties don't get it, and I hope someday someone will. Americans want their country to be strong, and to stand up against tyrants and dictators of whatever stripe anywhere in the world. But they also want the economy to be strong - with Americans producing the things Americans use, so that ordinary working people in America are prosperous.

Or, to put it even more simply:

We can shut down the auto factories and steel mills after all the black people are sending their kids to college, so that we would need to let in immigrants from Mexico to find people who would work in them - not before.

That's the way to end the drug problem in America. That's the way to build a strong and healthy and united nation.

[pikapika]

religious thread are always serious fun

though instead of trying to find if god exists, i'm really wondering about the real existence of microsoft windows (not the software of course)

[ch_123]

EIBM certainly doesn't seem to exist any more. A bit like Limbo really.

[keyboardlover]

I suppose one could. But if one did, one would be wrong.

It's unfortunate indeed that Obama chose to play partisan politics with the War on Terror. But I have no sympathy with the Republicans who obstructed the United States from joining the rest of the civilized world in ensuring - in a simple, uncomplicated fashion, instead of a bureaucratic nightmare that continues to involve private health insurers - that every American who needs medical care just gets it, with the government paying.

I still think I'm correct regarding the very un-presidential way Obama involves himself in pop-culture and civilian issues (he gives his opinions publicly on every little thing). That's a big part of why he's so unpopular here right now. Also he really set himself up with that sexy campaign and has failed to deliver on most of the things he promised.

[pikapika]

Also he really set himself up with that sexy campaign and has failed to deliver on most of the things he promised.

almost no president of any countries have enough power to really change the way people live.
multinational firms have the power

[keyboardlover]

almost no president of any countries have enough power to really change the way people live.
multinational firms have the power

That's not how democracy is supposed to be...imo we've had better presidents in the past.

[itlnstln]

True dat.  FDR was awesome.

[pikapika]

That's not how democracy is supposed to be...imo we've had better presidents in the past.

but in the past national governements had more power, before globalization

[ch_123]

My theory is that he had a Macintosh in his closet all this time.

[ricercar]

Oh, so now I understand the phrase "coming out of the closet"!

[ch_123]

Yeah.

It's actually nothing to do with sexual orientation at all.

[Rajagra]

It's actually nothing to do with sexual orientation at all.

Wait. Are you saying that Appleophilia is not the third sexual orientation?

I still say they are all deviated preverts.

[pex]

back to islam, i think americans are not really serious about the supposed extremist fundamentalist islamist terrorist problem because they haven't done anything steadfastly ridiculous like boycotting arabica coffee beans.

[clickclack]

rofl

[ricercar]

Heaven forbid we inconvenience ourselves or give up our lifestyle to protest our positions. That would be.. inconvenient.

[Rajagra]

back to islam, i think americans are not really serious about the supposed extremist fundamentalist islamist terrorist problem because they haven't done anything steadfastly ridiculous like boycotting arabica coffee beans.

So you think the U.S. needs a more robusta foreign policy?

[aegrotatio]

I think you should be limited to one trolling post a week.

Did you know today is the 7th anniversary of Johnny Cash's death?  

Please take a moment of silence to remember the fallen.

Show Image

I always thought this was a picture of Lenny Bruce or Jimmy Breslin.
I'm glad I now know it's Johnny Cash.

[Rajagra]

I always thought this was a picture of Lenny Bruce or Jimmy Breslin.
I'm glad I now know it's Johnny Cash.

For a moment I thought it was someone else.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

I wonder if this thread is going in the way Microsoft Windows predicted?

Let's pick on Scientologists next.

I vote for the Mormons as the next religion to pick on.

Although Southpark has kind of said all there is to say about them really...
I mean the episode is called "All about Mormons"

[quadibloc]

Heaven forbid we inconvenience ourselves or give up our lifestyle to protest our positions. That would be.. inconvenient.

Well, to do that we need to boycott Sa'udi oil.

As for arabica coffee beans, we can just rename them freedom beans, since they're grown in non-Islamic areas anyways.

[wellington1869]

I vote for the Mormons as the next religion to pick on.

Although Southpark has kind of said all there is to say about them really...
I mean the episode is called "All about Mormons"

i met a mormon the other day.  she was non-religious herself but said her family was pretty religious. She said there were some ancestors of hers whom the family knows had been polygamous.  Also she claimed one of her ancestors had accompanied joseph smith (or whatever his name was) in his exodus to utah.

she did drink alcohol while we were talking so obviously she wasnt that religious herself (i believe mormons dont drink). But she was quite defensive about mormonism (i mean, if you can overlook all that is wacky in it, the massacres, the really hokey 'revelations' that joseph smith received, their mythology about utah being god's new chosen land and joseph smith his latest prophet, etc), she basically felt that mormons were one of the classic 'persecuted' people in the US (never mind they massacred indians, each other, and didnt allow blacks to join until like 1970s or something). But she really saw herself as 'persecuted' in america.

[pex]

I don't remember Mormon girls putting out.  Especially not like Catholic girls.

Of all the ways to evaluate and judge a religion, I do feel this is the supreme measuring stick.

[keyboardlover]

I don't remember Mormon girls putting out.  Especially not like Catholic girls.

You ever hear the song Catholic Girls by Frank Zappa? It's a classic

[Lanx]

I don't remember Mormon girls putting out.  Especially not like Catholic girls.

I live in Lancaster,pa i don't think you get more mormon or amish, i mean i went to my chiropractor(to check up on my posture) and alongside the cars was horse and buggy, apparently even the amish need spine correction.

Anyway these mormon girls... they may dress like little house on the paire but... they just don't scream hot.
(they do use deodorant, i sneaked a peak at an amish couples cart at walmart one time).
Nothing against these ppls, heck i'm thinking about opening a bank account w/ the local menonnite bank since it's close by.

[Rajagra]

Skip to 2:40 to see an awesome Unix Beard.

I was expecting the scene where she stood up in the bath. You let me down.

[wellington1869]

Of all the ways to evaluate and judge a religion, I do feel this is the supreme measuring stick.

seriously its true. I think you can make a seroius case for or against a religion based on how inhibited and guilt-ridden about sex they make their women.

they may dress like little house on the paire but

lol! so true

this mormon girl btw was fairly cute. But in a very 'girl next door' homey way. I think thats about as hot as they get.

(they do use deodorant, i sneaked a peak at an amish couples cart at walmart one time).

interesting. The amish in upstate new york definitely DONT wear deoderant. A bunch of them used to attend my high school. I actually became fairly close friends with one kid (who had the misfortune of being named "Eberhard", btw). He seemed fairly normal as a kid for the most part. We used to arm wrestle each morning in home room and he was also in my english class.  He was definitely a little socially awkward (as might be expected) and very shy but had a wicked sense of humor.

Nothing against these ppls, heck i'm thinking about opening a bank account w/ the local menonnite bank since it's close by.

Jay Leno had a funny joke last nite (altho i hate leno ever since he gave conan the shaft and only watched a second of his monologue while flipping past it -- yes, i boycott leno now, how about that), but he said that there are reports that the amish population is increasing rapidly in the US, and he said, i think they're mistaken, its just that more and more people cant afford cars or deoderant

[wellington1869]

I was expecting the scene where she stood up in the bath. You let me down.

she had some serious boobs.

[Rajagra]

Geekhack is PG-13.  OCN is G.

Damn that GH censor!!!

[wellington1869]

Damn that GH censor!!!

lol! nice

[Rajagra]

Great Peter Weir film.  All his films are worth watching.

And stealing shots from.



I always wondered what the story was behind that woman at the start of the first Stargate Atlantis episode. Now it all makes sense. Amish!

Hallowed are the Ori.

[quadibloc]

Geekhack is PG-13.  OCN is G.

Also, we only have "youtube" tags, not "dailymotion" tags.